Philosophy, Corruption,

and the
American University in Cairo

Interview Transcript


Interviewer: Amira Mahmoud
Narrator: Ernest Wolf Gazo
Date: 12 March 2014
Place: Radio studio, AUC
Class: JRMC 2202 Multimedia Writing
Submitted to:
Professor Kim Fox


Amira Mahmoud Ernest Wolf Gazo Interview 1/5
Mahmoud: Hi, I'm Amira and I'm here with the professor, with the philosophy
professor, Ernest Wolf Gazo, who has kindly agreed to talk to me
today for my multimedia project. Hi, professor.
Gazo: Hello.
Mahmoud: I have some questions relating to corruption and I was wondering if
you'd be kind enough to answer them for me.
Gazo: Okay.
Mahmoud: Okay so professor, since you've been in the philosophy field for like,
how long? Since 88?
Gazo: Well, at, at AUC, since 23 years and then I have been teaching in
Europe and the U.S., in Turkey before I came to Egypt.
Mahmoud: And you also wrote several books on several...
Gazo: Yeah mainly on natural philosophy and multicultural issues, umm.
Mahmoud: Okay, so, what is the philosophy of corruption?
Gazo: Well, corruption, I would philosophically speak, I would say errr
normally I would say this were the ordinary public has this attitude
about corruption that these with money, embezzlement and what
have you, but I like to be a little bit more precise. Corruption in
original intent was dealt with the character of a person, you know. So
Amira Mahmoud Ernest Wolf Gazo Interview 2/5
that the opposite of a corrupt person would be a, a, a so called
morally sound person, so the term corruption actually deals with the
moral characteristics of a person. That's why I would say, um, to say
that the system is corrupt is misleading because err systems as such
cannot be corrupt, it's only human beings that are corrupt, by nature,
I would say.
Mahmoud: So it is a human nature?
Gazo: Yes, it's, it's part of human nature to be corrupt meaning everyone is
potentially corruptible.
Mahmoud: uhm.
Gazo: And this is the reason so that you don't get the wrong idea, I don't
think so everybody is a bad guy or whatever, but I'm just saying this is
the reason we have laws and rules in order to correct systems, what
have you, because we do know by nature that we happen to be
corruptible, um, so that we have the proper conditions that we can
then go ahead and have a society that's reasonable and less
corrupted, you know.
Mahmoud: So, in your, you've been here for almost two decades at AUC.
Gazo: Yes, almost.

Amira Mahmoud Ernest Wolf Gazo Interview 3/5
Mahmoud: So, how would you describe the difference in the corruption -
behavioral corruption?
Gazo: Well, I mean, AUC is, is educational institution like any modern err,
anywhere else, meaning um, there is corruption at AUC of course too,
you know. Em, we don't need to go into details um, but, um, meaning
what is important is I think in AUC there is the possibility of
correctibility, meaning if there is a misusage of funds or er, say,
nepotism or whatever you may call it, embezzlement or whatever,
this could be corrected, you know. Err, but one thing I should add,
err, if you deal with education institutions it's a little bit different
than maybe other institutions because basically speaking education
institutions exist not to make profit, they actually exist, you know to,
for the education of young people and so forth, so I would like to
think maybe this is a little bit idealistic, that education institutions
are less err corruptible than other institutions, at least I would like to
think that, umm.
Mahmoud: Okay, so, AUC is about to celebrate its 100th birthday.
Gazo: Yes.
Mahmoud: So does that mean that an educational institution needs a hundred
years to be able to correct its corruption?

Amira Mahmoud Ernest Wolf Gazo Interview 4/5
Gazo: No, umm, actually no, in Europe, where I got my PhD in Germany, for
instance, there are many institutions that are two or three hundred
years old and all this, but of course, err, no these institutions they
develop a tradition, you know, and as you know, AUC started in
eighteen, err, in 1918.
Mahmoud: 19, yeah.
Gazo: 19, 1919. The original students were, you know, as you know,
Armenians, Greeks, Jewish students, you know, and only later on the
elite of Egyptian society, errr, also came to AUC, so there I would say
Egypt to some extent now has been lucky because these were all
sociological group that seriously was interested in education and Dr.
Watson was the founder of AUC. He was a, had a theological
background, you know. In the 19th century, he wanted to introduce
modern methods of education to Egypt so I would like to err say that
umm there is no corruption there except maybe in politics a little bit,
where you use political maneuvering in order to achieve errr good
results and there I would say well that's, there may be paradox
meaning perhaps sometimes you have to act in corrupt ways in order
to achieve positive results (Laughs). Again it's part of human nature.
Mahmoud: So are there positive results?
Gazo: I'm sorry?
Amira Mahmoud Ernest Wolf Gazo Interview 5/5
Mahmoud: Are there positive results? I mean...
Gazo: Oh yes, there are positive results, I mean after all, AUC will exist
close to one hundred years, you know. Remember the British were
against it, you know, the French didn't like it, you know, so AUC was
a little bit lucky. Nasser, you know, whose daughter went to AUC, err
was impressed from what I have read in some books, you know, so I
think generally speaking AUC has been a little bit lucky in many ways,
but I think err where I would say was positive is, since I've been here
20 years is that AUC transformed into a institution of education, err,
opened up the gates for more people not just for the elite and all
that.
Mahmoud: Okay, so has AUC, regarding the lucky part of AUC, I know you're
particularly interested in Max Weber, the German sociologist, so
would he be proud of AUC today?
Gazo: Yes, I'd think Max Weber would find AUC interesting err, because
number one of the type of students at AUC, a very multicultural
background and err and I think in that sense AUC is doing a good job.
Mahmoud: Okay, thank you very much, professor. I'd love to talk to you more
about the topic, but unfortunately we're out of time. Thank you.
Gazo: Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, okay.