INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF

RADIO AUGUST 22, 2015

RUSH TRANSCRIPT: AMOS BROWN
Click here for audio
[REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]:
Last Saturday, a crucial voice in the civil rights movement was
silenced when activist Julian Bond passed away at the age of 75.
While still in college, Julian helped establish the profoundly influential
Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. After years of hands-on
activism, he served numerous terms in the Georgia state legislature;
then taught at several universities. Julian was also the first president
of the Southern Poverty Law Center, and served a term as chairman
of the NAACP.
Through it all, Julian brought clarity of vision and a moral authority
that led to his courageously linking the struggle for African-American
civil rights and LGBT civil rights early and often - despite the loud
disagreement of others.
Joining me right now to help us remember the man behind all of
these achievements is the Rev. Dr. Amos C. Brown, a lifelong civil
rights champion in his own right who knew Julian Bond well.
Amos, welcome back to State of Belief Radio.
[REV. DR. AMOS C. BROWN, GUEST]: Thank you for the
opportunity of sharing with you and your audience again.

[WG]: Amos, when I say the words Julian Bond, what immediately
comes to your mind?
[AB]: It is the quintessential expression of one who was part of the
Black community, who did not fail to keep his responsibility of working
to lift up the masses of African-Americans and all people of
marginalized status in this country being respected and included as
citizens and individuals with worth and dignity.
[WG]: Amos, I really appreciate you joining us today. I saw and
listened to your interview on MSNBC earlier this week and it was
excellent - it just wasn't long enough, and I wanted you to be in a
conversation with me because we've got more time, and we cant talk
about this man too much. He's important. His legacy is important.
When did you first meet Julian Bond?
[AB]: I met him first in 1959 at Morehouse. We came from similar
similar orbits of civil rights activist. Julian was destined to be a fighter
for civil rights and human rights, because in his home his father
surrounded him with some of the brightest, most resourceful
statespersons who fought for human dignity and civil rights. He
peered many times, Im sure, from his bedroom looked down the
staircase at such personalities as Paul Robeson, W. B. DuBois,
entering the living room. And we just couldnt help it but to be
advocates for justice and freedom and peace in the world.
[WG]: I can't imagine what that environment must have been like! Of
all of his many achievements, which do you feel were the most
important to Julian Bond himself?
[AB]: I feel his a historian and a narrator of the struggle. Julian was an
outstanding writer a prolific writer, also. He was very articulate and
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quite a gentleman, too. I feel that young people today need to look to
his model and his mannerisms as they go about even dealing with
Black Lives Matter. Julian was not bombastic; he was very forthright;
he was very strong, but he was able to state his case in a very
respectful manner.
[WG]: Amos, if you asked Julian to list the priorities, what was at the
top of his list of important things to get done?
[AB]: I think number one was to get people to be world citizens; to not
live in a silo, and to come out of this pitting them against us, us
against them. Thats number one.
Number two, Julian felt that for this country voting rights was very
important for thats the only way you can impact public policy:
through electing persons to office who are supportive of your
interests. Education was very important for him. He was a teacher at
the University of Virginia and a number of other schools as guest
lecturer and adjunct professor.
Id say number three, it would be economic empowerment, for he new
so well that we did not get our 40 acres and our mule - which
destroyed the economic base of the Black community. And if we had
gotten our 40 acres and a mule, we would not have been thrown into
the system of sharecropping which he witnessed in the Mississippi
Delta. You know, Julian was involved, during the summer of 1964, in
Mississippi with Marian Wright Edelman, and they were working in
those impoverished areas, trying to enfranchise Blacks there and also
to get better opportunity programs going for them. It was on the cusp
of the summer of 64 that President Johnson inaugurated the poverty
program later. But Marian Wright Edelman and other students, along
with Julian, were the ones who were agitating for the world to know
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about the horrible social and economic conditions that Blacks were
living in in places like Sugar Ditch, Mississippi.
So those were things he was very passionate about.
[WG]: Were there aspects of the civil rights movement that you think
frustrated Julian?
[AB]: Yes. And the final one was marriage equality. Julian and I were
some of the students who sat at the feet of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
at Morehouse, in semesters in 1961-1962. And we took a course in
Social Philosophy. And in that course, Dr. King expounded
Brightmans idea of personalism: that is, every person is important,
of worth and dignity, and should be respected. So when the issue
came up of Gay rights and marriage equality, Julian was frustrated
that unfortunately, a number of members of the national board of the
NAACP were very cool towards him when he spoke about Gay rights
being equated with civil rights. But he said it was hypocritical to talk
about Black people getting their rights under the 14 th Amendment,
that equal protection under the law and then you turn around and
deny Gays their right to be who they are, and to have life, liberty and
the pursuit of happiness. So that in 2008, at the board meeting in
Miami, Florida, when Alice Huffman, William Barber and I Im the
one who made the motion that the NAACP would support marriage
equality under equal protection under the law, when the vote was
taken, there were only two dissenters. And Julian said himself, Wow!
You all did something today that I didnt think that you were prepared
to do. You really surprised me. So I think that that was frustrating for
him, and he considered it a major contradiction for Black civil rights
workers to be against Gay rights when they had to fight for their
rights. He made it very clear, theres a difference between r-i-t-e-s,

rites, in a religious faith context, and civil rights that everyone in this
nation should have.
[WG]: Thats a remarkable comment, and I very well remember the
day that I was talking with you on State of Belief Radio about your
feelings regarding the comprehensiveness of rights for all people, and
including the Gay, Lesbian community, Transgender community, and
you were right there hearing the same thing that Julian Bond was
hearing - and that's a powerful recollection for me to hear that said by
you, and also what you said about how it came to pass in his life.
Amos, right now we are seeing increased awareness of inequalities
between White and Black America. The Black Lives Matter movement
is getting a lot of attention; political candidates or being challenged to
address issues of race. What are the lessons - in your mind what
are the lessons that today's activists must learn from the lifetime work
of Julian Bond?
[AB]: I think its, first, we must understand that the more things
change, the more they stay the same. And theyre fighting the same
struggle that we fought in our day. And until human beings get it in
their hearts and their minds that everyone is to be respected, we will
have this problem of racism, bigotry and injustice. And thats why we
have to understand that eternal vigilance is the price of success. And
young people today cannot chill; they cannot hang out. Theyve got to
be aware; theyve got to do their homework.
For example, when we sat down in Atlanta in 1960, we were hooking
up with a movement that had already been birthed by the NAACP
Youth Councils going back to August the 28th, 1958, when youth units
of the NAACP sat down in Oklahoma City, OK, Wichita, KS, and
Louisville, KY. Theres been a misstatement of the student movement.
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The movement did not start in Greensboro in 1960; it started in

Oklahoma City, OK in 1958. But before we sat down in Atlanta, the
college presidents of those historically black schools called us into a
conference room at Harpers Hall and said, Young people, we dont
want to get in your way; we wont stop you from fighting for your
rights. But at least let the world know why youre doing what you are
doing. And they suggested that we would have a committee craft a
document, and from that suggestion they took the document and had
it published in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
And after we finished the document and it was published, then we sat
down and broke down segregation at counters in Atlanta. And later
we led wait-ins in Savannah, Georgia; kneel-ins, even at White First
Baptist students at Morehouse and Spellman were literally thrown
out of that church back in 1962. But I wish to share with the audience
from Marian Wright Edelmans book, Lanterns her memoirs just
one paragraph.
It says here: We are all in the air about sit-down protests now, and
Im sick and tired of our inactivity. A group of us have been planning,
led by Lonnie King, an able and sincere person whos backed by the
Kings thats Martin Luther King, Jr.s family. And then she goes on
to say, Julian Bond, Morris Dillard, Amos Brown (bright young
NAACPer) I was the youngest person in the conference Melvin
McCaw and Ed Harper are our caucus. And it was from that caucus,
March the 4th, 1960, that students laid the foundation for what
became the Committee on Appeal for Human Rights. Notice, our
interest was broad; we didnt just talk about civil rights. That
document that one can get off the Internet now was called An
Appeal on Human Rights. It was published, and the rest is history.
And thats why Mr. Bond would be concerned about the freedoms, the

rights of all persons, including persons who are Gay, Transgender,

and Bisexual because we got it at Morehouse.
[WG]: I tell you what, Amos, at a lower level what you've done is
prove to me that you have an amazingly good memory, and you're
able to talk about those things then as if they were yesterday.
Secondly, I have to admit that I get chill bumps - it's not the first time
you've done that for me - but I get chill bumps when I listen to you talk
about the resolve, the whole motivation, the breadth of motivation that
you were embracing during those early days, and you haven't quit till
now.
Theres two other questions I want to ask you, very quickly: one is, I
always remember that Julian Bond smiled a lot; laughed a lot. One of
the last times I was with him, he was, I would say, somewhat down;
and yet in the discussion he rose above that and there was that very
warm smile on his face, as well as you knew that he was talking
about matters of life and death. Do you remember? I mean, would
you say am I remembering that falsely, or wasn't a smile very
characteristic for him.
[AB]: Yes, it was very characteristic for him, and what you said is
accurate. He was beat down, but even while down he still had that
smile, and that little swagger in his walk. And he was always moving
to say something and to do something, in spite of how he might have
felt physically.
[WG]: Do you have one favorite memory of Julian Bond that you could
share with us?
[AB]: Yes. In Washington, D.C. on the occasion of the dedication of
Martin Luther Kings memorial it was 2011, in August. The civil
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rights workers of yesteryear were to bring remarks. And Martin Luther

Kings son, Martin III, and several others were speakers. I was listed
in the group who spoke of hope, and in my segment there was Julian
Bond, William H. Grey, Dorothy Cotton, and Amos Brown.
And after I finished and I had just come out of the experience of
having a stroke in 2010 the audience responded in an amazing way.
And when I came down from the podium, Julian was there and he
said to the group of us gathered there, I dont care what youre
saying, Amos gave the speech today. It wasnt just a matter of my
ego, but I think what Julian was saying, when I expressed what we
learned in Dr. Kings class at Morehouse as students and applied it to
the present circumstance, he thought that I did a good job that Dr.
King would have been proud of.
[WG]: The Rev. Dr. Amos C. Brown is pastor of Third Baptist Church
of San Francisco. A student of Medgar Evers, Benjamin Mays and
Martin Luther King, Jr., Dr. Brown is a lifelong leader in the civil rights
movement and the longtime president of the San Francisco branch of
the NAACP.
Amos, I really want to thank you for being with us today as we
remember the incredible legacy of civil rights hero Julian Bond, who
passed away last Saturday at the age of 75. You always answer the
phone for us, and you always come on this show and make a
contribution. This was no exception. Thank you, Amos.
[AB]: Thank you very much.

Rev. Dr. Amos C. Brown

A native of Jackson, Mississippi, Dr. Brown has been Pastor of San
Franciscos Third Baptist Church since 1976. As a scholar,
theologian, preacher and social activist, he has maintained a
marriage of piety and political action in his ministry. He was equipped
for great and distinct ministerial leadership through his training at
Morehouse College, B.A. (1964) and earned degrees of Master of
Divinity degree from Crozer Theological Seminary and the Doctor of
Ministry from United Theological Seminary. Before accepting the call
to Third Baptist, he served as pastor of Saint Pauls Baptist Church in
West Chester, Pennsylvania and Pilgrim Baptist Church in St. Paul,
Minnesota.
Dr. Brown was awarded the Martin Luther King, Jr. Ministerial Award
for outstanding leadership and contributions to the Black Church in
America. He was also inducted into the International Hall of Fame at
the King International Chapel at Morehouse College.
In addition to his pastoral responsibilities, he has served as a
member of the governing board of San Francisco Community
College, National Chairman of the National Baptist Commission on
Civil Rights and Human services, member of the San Francisco
Board of Supervisors, Chairman of the Bay Area Ecumenical Pastors
Conference, first Vice President of the California State Baptist
Convention, President of NAACP Branch in San Francisco, California,
and a member of the governing board of the National Council of
Churches of Christ.

Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy

Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A
Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of
Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy led the national nonpartisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith Alliance
for 16 years, retiring in 2014. Dr. Gaddy continues his work with the
Alliance as President Emeritus and Senior Advisor. He serves as
Pastor for Preaching and Worship at Northminster (Baptist) Church in
Monroe, Louisiana.
In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State
of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the
life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America,
while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion
for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government
for sectarian purposes.
Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on
issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs
The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and
Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour
with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News,
and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on
NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular
contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets.
While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy
emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists.
Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the
Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the
Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past

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leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council

of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United
for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership
Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World
Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on
the White House task force on the reform of the Office of Faith Based
and Neighborhood Partnerships.
Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist
Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles
including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from
1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the
Christian Life Commission from 1973-77.
Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University
in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training
from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville,
Kentucky.

State of Belief Radio

State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive
and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains
and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in
America the most religiously diverse country in the world while
exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for
partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for
sectarian purposes.

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Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy offers listeners critical
analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide
listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty.
Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the firm belief that the best way to
secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from
religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong
wrong for America and bad for religion.
Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and field reports
from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of
religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes
diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world.

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