9/1/2016

OutskirtsofVienna(1241)&outskirtsofMoscow(1941),whathavebeensaid&wouldbesaidAlternateHistoryDiscussionBoard

September30th,2015,04:41AM

Biden&Ceaser'12
EternalViceKaiser

JoinDate:Mar2014
Location:Minnesota
Posts:1000ormore

Iseewhatyou'regoingforhere,butitjustisn'tworking.
TheMongolshadthemostsophisticated,advanced,anddeadlymilitaryoftheirtimebya
longshot.Theywerelikeamodernarmyintermsoforganization,andsomeofthegreatest
militarymindstoeverhaveexisted.Theonlypoweroftheirtimebythe1240sthatcouldeven
putupadecentfightwasSongChina,whohadamilitarythatinnumbers,discipline,and
organization,coulddwarfanythingtheEuropeansputout.AndyettheSongstilllost.
NaziGermanywasastrongGreatPower,perhapsevenapotentialbuddingsuperpower.Ithada
goodarmyandwasabletoexperimentwithalotofnewtacticsthatmadethisarmyvery
effective.Itwasabletoagainandagaincatchitsenemiesoffguardandbeveryefficientwhen
goingforthejugular.ThismilitaryisnothingcomparedtothesheerdominationtheMongolsput
out.
Meanwhile,Europeatthispointis,ifnotabackwater,certainlynotthecenterofpowerinthe
world.ThisboardlikestopraiseRome/ByzantiumanditssuperioritytotherestofEuropeandat
timeseventheArabWorld,butevenRomepaledincomparisontothearmiesthattheChinese
powerswereputtingoutinthe13thcentury.ArmiesthattheMongolscrushedandlearned
everythingtheyneededtoknowfromfighting.
Europestoodnochance,noneatall.Itwasn'tjustbeingdisunitedtheyjustcouldn'tmatchthe
tacticsanddisciplinethattheMongolswereusing.Ifyouwantareallifeexampleofhowthe
MongolsfaredagainsttheEuropeans,looknofurtherthantheinvasionofHungary,where
multipleWesternarmiesweredefeatedbynumericallyinferiorbutfarsuperiorinorganization
andfightingabilityMongolarmies.Europeanknightsaregoodwarriors,andIsupposeifyou
comparetheKnightandtheaveragesteppewarrior,theycouldmatchupprettyevenly.But
Knightscouldn'tcoordinateinmassliketheMongols,withutterobedienceandpatience.Noone
could,leastofallEuropeans.IftheEuropeansdiduniteagainsttheMongols,I'msuretheywould
haveenjoyedthatitjustmakesiteasiertosweepallresistanceaside.
PeoplesaythattheMongolswereoperatingattheendoftheirsupplylines,orthattheforestand
castlesofCentralEuropewouldhalttheMongoladvance.Thislogicisbasedoffofafantasy
depictionofHollywoodMongolBarbarians.Inreality,theMongolsweremastersofsiegewarfare,
andeveniftheyweren'ttheycouldbringinChineseservantswhowere.AndtheMongolsdidn't
reallyhaveasupplychainasweknowofit,butyetmanagedtosubsistinadozendifferent
environmentsinmountains,indeserts,inforestsjustlikethoseinWesternEuropethatappear
inRussia.
IOTL,theMongolshadalreadydecideditwouldtakeabout15yearstoconquerallofEuropeup
tothePacific.WhenOgedeidied,theywereaheadofschedule.
TherearesomanyotherreasonsaUSSR=Europecomparisondoesn'tmakesense,butI'mjust
focusingonthefactthatEuropeanswerecompletelyoutmatched.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=368674

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