Persuasion Masters Secrets Revealed

"Persuasion Masters Reveal Their "Gun to the
Head", Must Work Techniques...

Ignoring Them Could Be The Costliest Mistake of
Your Life."
What if you could sit down with some of the world's most famous, most skilled
persuaders and get them to divulge their favorite, most cherished "go to"
persuasion tactic?
This brand new report is the result. We got together with the a few of the world's
best persuaders and got them to tell all their secrets... and they were more than
willing to share! The call went for over 3 hours and was flat out packed with great,
immediately useable information that you can use to increase your sales today.
Welcome to...
Persuasion Masters Secrets - Revealed

The Persuasion Masters revealed the power sales secrets of framing,
reducing resistance, storytelling, closing, and much more!
Hi... this is Kenrick Cleveland.

I have some awesome material to share with you about persuasion, and how you
can use it to give your business an immediate sales boost...
Here's some background info on the creation of this report.
A few weeks ago I was thinking about persuasion and how lately, it has become
such a buzz word since I first started training people in it over 25 years ago. And
since I am always searching for the latest and greatest research and persuaders
available, I was also thinking about how few incredible persuaders there really are.
And I came up with an interesting idea...
I wondered if I could round up a number of the best Persuasion Masters around...
say a world class trainer and author - Kevin Hogan; a world class internet marketer
and author - Mark Joyner; a world class researcher and author - Eric Knowles PhD;
a world class marketer, persuader and author - Dave Lakhani; and world class
presenter and author, Joel Bauer; could I round these guys up and get them on one
phone call and...

Get them to reveal their most powerful persuasion secrets?
So I started to make some calls. I knew or was friends with most of these guys but
I had no idea if we could make the timing work. And every one of them was excited
to be a part of the first Persuasion Masters tele-seminar.
What a call it was! It went on for 3 hours and 8 minutes - far longer than the
scheduled 1.5 hours! And I felt like I was cutting everyone off. Each Persuasion
Master was totally giving of the best stuff they teach and use!
The call was full and the feedback during and after the call was amazing. My
marketing guy's inbox was filled with raves, and the call blog had 91 comments!
Here is a selection of the comments:
The call was fabulous. I have never heard so many great ideas in any
three hours that I paid for. That it was free is beyond belief. Thank you.
*****
The quality of last night's call was astounding... I am grateful that
speakers and Kenrick were so generous and forthcoming; the information
on ways to grow/awaken ourselves and wake up our clients w/ the
associated sequencing is profound and field-worthy.
Thanks so much for putting that together... the blog was a great recap
and resource for the links. It's exciting to see the percolations at the
intersections of these folks techniques and insights.
Furthermore, it's really helpful to get perspectives in addition to Kenrick's
as it makes Kenrick's work/teachings all the more valuable and
contextual.
*****
I was on the call. Please do more! I really enjoyed this! - Nearly, beyond
belief to hear these pros give us insight!
Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed
Wow! You guys barely got started with all that you want to say. It was
amazing to hear the conversation of guys on that level trade information.
It is one thing for any of the commentator to speak and have us listen,
but for them to speak to each other with the understanding and respect
for each other, was just incredible.
*****
Tell Kenrick that I was BLOWN AWAY by that call last night. I've been on
conference calls with some of the biggest names in
marketing/persuasion/sales and that call blew away anything I've heard
yet on every level possible; content, quality, depth, usability, easy to
understand and implement, the more than generous time factor, scope,
price...You absolutely raised the bar for quality conference calls that will
be hard for anyone to match.
How hard was it for Kenrick to not jump in FOR OVER 3 HOURS? Thank
you very much for putting the call together. I enjoyed every minute of it,
even if my brain felt like it was on the verge of exploding near the end
and even if I couldn't get to sleep until 4:00 in the morning.
*****
I missed the first 45 minutes of the call last night but what I did hear was,
as Kenrick kept saying, Mind Blowing. What a fantastic lineup of
speakers - Masters, every one of them - and each that I heard, spoke
from the heart.
Last night's tele-seminar was not the most important tele-seminar of the
year, it is the most important and exciting tele-seminar since the
beginning. I do not think it will be topped for a long time - even by
Kenrick himself.
Please give Kenrick and all the speakers a standing ovation, thank yous
and hugs.
*****
The Persuasion Master's Tele-Seminar was the best three hours I have
ever invested in to improve my persuasion skills. In three plus hours, you
reviewed basically everything I have ever learned on the topic. I
developed new insights on what works and why that were not obvious to
me before. I can't wait to here the MP3 and to review the transcript.
Please thank Kenrick and everyone else involved in making this event
possible.
These are just some of the comments.

We quickly got to work on the audio recording and getting the transcript done. After
I received the transcripts, Ive been hard at it, polishing this report. I spent over
12 hours on this - rearranging sentences and cleaning it up so you can get the
maximum impact from this valuable information.
So this is "Persuasion Masters Secrets - Revealed" and I am very proud of it. The
application of the secrets contained here will radically change your selling career
and your business.
I hope you enjoy it!
Warm Regards,
Kenrick
Special Notice!
This report is the start of something. Something big. Something that will grow
your persuasion and influence skills to the level of a Master! When you join
Kenricks Double Helix list you will be getting some extra bonuses:
The audio recording of the Persuasion Masters Call for Free.

Preferred notice of more Free events like the Persuasion Masters Call.
Free persuasion information audios and videos.
More Free reports like this one
In the future When you join my Double Helix list you will receive many
valuable tools to easily increase your persuasion skills.
However, that is not the best, the most valuable, or the most important reason
to join my list.
Sshhhhhh - Im at the beginning stages of releasing the state of the art Double Helix
the DNA of Persuasion Seminar. Its the culmination of 30 years of research, training
and in the trenches experience! And its not for everyone
You might not have heard of my work and how I have trained many of the top
producers in many selling niches over the last 27+ years. How participants in
my seminars and Coaching Club regularly and repeatedly report sales
increases of 45%, 121%, 308% and more.
For most of my whole life, Ive searched for a unifying principle for persuasion.
The core, yet overarching organizing principle of clear communication.
What I recently uncovered is the wellspring. It simplifies and organizes the
Alpha strategies of increasing value ( like social proof, and scarcity, etc.); the
Omega strategies of reducing resistance ( like distraction, and acknowledging
resistance, etc.); and core persuasion techniques ( such as rapport, criteria,
language patterns, etc.). And Ive made it a piece of cake easy to learn!
When I release my Double Helix the DNA of Persuasion Seminar, its going to
shake the very foundation of sales and persuasion training worldwide.
Heres what I can guarantee you this seminar might not be for you. I dont
know it might not be suitable or you might not be ready. But, when you look
forward, into your future, and you see how you could have been closing most (if
not all!) of the people you persuade, you will regret not getting a chance to look
at the offer when I send out the preferred notice to my list.
Heres what you do now click the link below
Click Here To Preserve Your Double Helix Status

Persuasion Masters Secrets

Revealed
DNA-of-Persuasion.com
Hosted by:
Kenrick Cleveland
With Masters:
Mark Joyner
Kevin Hogan
Eric Knowles PhD
Dave Lakhani
Joel Bauer
Copyright Notice: This report is Copyright Kenrick E. Cleveland- Influence Marketing LLC 2005.
Additional material is copyrighted to its original owners.
You may distribute this repot as long as you distribute it as is, without any changes, and in its entirety.
This report may Not be sold or resold without prior written consent from the publisher.
Persuasion Masters Secrets - Revealed

Kenrick:
Well good evening everyone, this is Kenrick Cleveland, and I am excited

to be with you today. With me on the phone are five other Masters of
Persuasion who have graciously agreed to join us tonight. And I cant tell
you how excited I am to do this.
As I spoke with each of them today, going over a little bit of what were
going to talk about this evening, I mentioned to each one of them that I
was honored and excited and thrilled to be able to do this, if nothing else,
just for the six of us to be able to chat together. I think history is being
made tonight on this call and it is the first time ever, that this group of
powerhouse persuaders have ever been together in one spot. And, it is a
real honor to moderate and lead this tonight.
Let me just go over a couple of things with you. Tonights call will run
between 90 and 120 minutes or as Dr. Knowles might say, Itll run
between 93-1/2 minutes and 126.5 minutes and its really going to be fun.
Youll learn about that tonight. I cant wait for you to hear Dr. Knowles,
and each of these guys. Thats about what you can expect. What Im
going to do, is I realize we can only take what our seats can stand, so at
the top of the hour, in one hour from now, I intend to give us about a twominute break and we can run to the facilities or grab a cup of water,
whatever it is youd like to do. Ill save this recording to make sure that
we dont exceed the limits of my system and then, well continue right on.
Let me just tell you about the people we have on the call. And real briefly,
Mark Joyner is with us, Kevin Hogan is with us. Mark Joyner is a former
Military Intelligence Officer. Hes probably the biggest name in
marketing on the Internet, author of several best-selling books, including
Mind Control Marketing. Kevin is a best-selling author of numerous
books on persuasion. Dr. Eric Knowles is a leading persuasion researcher
in the field of eliminating resistance. And, this is the most exciting
research to date, showing how to use his Omega Strategies to stop
resistance, cold.
Dave Lakhani is with us and he was raised in a cult and decided to study
and understand them. And, this has led to his studies in persuasion. He
was a high-level narcotics operative in the U.S. government, working in
South America and now, teaches his strategies of persuasion in sales and
marketing to companies. We have Joel Bauer with us tonight, and hes the
author of How To Persuade People Who Dont Want To Be Persuaded,
and an expert at building and working crowds at trade shows. We have,
literally, the highest-powered persuaders on the planet. Im not kidding
when I say that.
The purpose of our call tonight is to give you hard-hitting persuasion

information that you can use to help you in your business. And Im going
to be posing this question to each of our experts. Im going to be asking
them, Look, if you had your back up against the wall or a gun to your
head and you absolutely had to use your best persuasion strategies to get
ahead, what would you use? And theyre going to share with us exactly
what they would do, each in their areas of specialty.
Let me encourage you that while we do this, that we have a blog available
for you to post questions. And, we would very much like to encourage
you to do this. I have my marketing person who will be gleaning these
questions and instant messaging them to me, so I can ask these experts the
different things that youre interested in knowing. And, let me give you
the address of the blog, its www.kenricks-breakthroughs-inpersuasion.com/blog. Yeah, I know, its really long!
And by the way, even after this call feel free to post and Ill get these
questions to these experts and who knows? Maybe, well have Round 2
down the road. And Ill also, give this address again as we proceed
throughout the evening, but by all means as youre listening, have that
page in front of you, if you happen to be in front of your Internet and that
way, youll be able to write questions as they come to mind.
So again, I just want to let you know that the purpose of tonights call is to
give you hard-hitting information about persuasion. We have nothing to
sell. Theres nothing to buy. Not one single thing will be offered.
Nobody will even so much as mention anything you can buy. So, you get
to just relax and enjoy some of the best persuasion information to have
ever been given, period.
Also, I want to remind you that all of you will receive a download for the
MP3 of this recording, and youll also receive a transcript of this call, all
at no charge to you. So, were bent on getting you the best information
possible and making sure you can learn from each of these experts. And,
before we get started and by way of teeing up here to get to work with
Mark Joyner, let me just help you to get into the right mindset to begin this
process tonight.
Id like you to imagine that you really needed to figure out how to make
money, or how to increase your current money, how to increase your sales
and bring in more business today. Its probably not too hard to imagine, is
it? And lets just imagine that you were me, and that you could call up
these top persuasion experts and bring them right into your home, right
into your living room to sit down with you, and answer your every
question. Lets just say that as this happens, you just look around your
living room and notice what its like to have six guys sitting there, each of
them focused on you, each of them looking at you and listening intently to
what it is you need.
As they begin to speak, its as if each and every word out of their mouth
addresses an issue that you didnt maybe even know you had. And, as it
addresses these issues, it brings up other thoughts and questions, in such a
way that you can wrestle with them. And, you can really begin to apply
these strategies and use them in ways that will bring you money and
success, all the good things of life, as a result of what youre hearing
because thats exactly what were doing. Hopefully, youre sitting
comfortably in your living room or in your office and youre ready to go.
And, we have Mark Joyner, whos with us, first of all. Mark, are you
there? (Marks response, inaudible)
All right, Mark, give me a second to just tell the world who you are, not
that its really needed, but Mark Joyner is a guy who, if youve been on
the Internet in any capacity for more than a day, needs absolutely no
introduction. He may be just the most significant Internet business
practitioner because hes innovated many of the technologies we take for
granted today and invented a great many of the marketing tactics, which
are now industry standards. As I mentioned, Marks a former U.S. Army
Officer and a Cold War Veteran of Military Intelligence. He was such an
asset to the government in his military days, that hes been given awards
for his service by the U.S. Army, the Republic of Korea Army, the Korean
Consulate General and the President of the United States.
I could go on and on and talk about some of the things that Mark has
accomplished, but heres just a few of the highlights, besides the fact hes
my friend. So, Marks created several top 100 web properties, one of
them reaching number 36 out of billions of websites within six weeks of
its release. Hes also a number one best-selling author and his book,
Mind Control Marketing reached number one within 48 hours of its
release, unseating Rudy Giulianis new book, which was being plugged on
CNN about every 30 minutes! Mark is a powerhouse and Mark, thank you
so much for being here with us tonight.
Mark Joyner:
Well, thanks for having me and let me just say real quick, no ones going
to be introducing you here, and I think its probably important to say that
Kenrick is perhaps, the worlds leading expert on language patterns. I
dont know anyone who understands language patterns better than you do.
And I think that needs to get out there for folks who are just coming on
this call and arent familiar with what you do. So, just wanted to throw
that in.
Kenrick:
Oh, thank you very much, I appreciate that. So, Mark what Id like to
do the reason Im actually starting with you tonight, is that I think that
10
persuading others is absolutely important. Its what all of us do. But, one
of the things I like best about what you do, is you focus on what it takes to
persuade ourselves. And, I think that before we start working with others,
we need to first, get our own mind into the capacity to use all that we have
and take advantage of what we know and make it work.
To that end, I think if were going to talk about how to persuade ourselves,
maybe lets talk first, about ineffective ways people try to change their
own mind and persuade themselves. I think youd agree with me that
every salesperson, every marketing person, every business owner, must
put themselves in peak mental and emotional states, in order to really
make the most of their persuasion skills. Wouldnt you agree?
So, what are some things we do that kind of screw this up? What can you
talk to me about with that?
Mark:
Oh, such a great question. Well, a lot of the so-called self-improvement

gurus out there, and I dont mean any disrespect. I mean, theres some
great names out there and theres some great advice, but theres also, some
misguided advice, or should I say, largely misunderstood advice. We read
books like Think And Grow Rich, right, and the core message of that is,
Hey, look, believe it and you can achieve it, right?
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
And, its a powerful message and I think, to a certain extent, its true. I
mean, you have to have a certain amount of belief, you know, to be able to
take the steps that you would need to take. I mean, if you tell yourself that
you cant do it, youre going to interrupt the flow of action, right? So, you
have to have that. But unfortunately, what people do when they hear this,
is they actually shut down, right? They say, Well, OK, if all I have to do
to achieve something is believe it, then what I need to do is I need to focus
on the belief, OK?
So, instead of taking actual action, what they do is they say, All right,
well now, Im going to listen to another subliminal tape, or, Now, Im
going to use another affirmation, right? Or, Now, Im going to do
something else to trick myself into believing that something is going to
happen. And, they do everything but take the actual action required to
make those things happen. So that unfortunately is quite possibly, the
number one biggest problem I see in people who set out to improve
themselves.
Kenrick:
Well thats insightful, thats really good. And, if thats the case, or thats
the biggest problem, whats the biggest opportunity?
11
Mark:
Well, the way I talk about itIve got a course that I have, its free, so Ill
just say the name of it, its Simpleology, and there are three steps, so
what I
Kenrick:
By the way, Mark, I just have to say I think that its phenomenal and that
you offer it for free, is phenomenal, but lets move on. Well let people
know about that other stuff by e-mail. But thank you, its awesome
material.
Mark:
Thank you. Well, inside there, theres something I call the Scientific
Formula For Success and what Im simply trying to show, is that
achieving something is not nearly as difficult as we make it. And I say,
To achieve anything, you simply have to do three things. You have to
see your target in your sights, you have to keep it in your sights, and then
you have to hit it. And thats really all there is to it. Now thats, on the
surface, all there is. And some people, when they hear that, it clears away
a bunch of junk and they just go to it.
But, there are a number of other things that you can do to intensify that.
For example, to see your target well, the target may not be something
thats important to you, right? Someone could tell you, Well hey, go
over there and pick up that piece of trash. Youre perfectly capable of
doing it, and if you actually put your mind to doing it you could, no
problem. But you may not have any motivation, right?
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
So the key to that, is just to tap intoand this, by the way, is an individual
thing for everyone so unfortunately, a lot of the things people who read
out there, are directed towards one particular problem or another, they
dont talk about the general problem, which is just simply, finding out
whats important for you, why do you want to do that? And if people
draw themselves through a process of trying to figure out why something
is important, sometimes, theyll figure out that they dont want to do it at
all. If you ask them that, Well, why do you want to do that? Whats
important to you about that? What would you fail to become if you didnt
do that? if people draw themselves through that process sometimes, they
realize they dont want to do it at all. Or they get really in touch with an
underlying motivation that sets them on fire.
Kenrick:
Well, thats really important, thats really great. So break it down for me.
First of all, we want to persuade ourselves. So, what do we do? Whats
our first step to put ourselves in the position to do this?
12
Mark:
Well, the first thing you do, is you simply, see that thing that you want to
do, OK? When you say, Persuade yourself, well, thats to accomplish a
particular target.
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
Right? So, when I say target, Im using it almost interchangeably, with

the word, goal. The word, goal, has taken on so much baggage, that
Im kind of reinventing a different language so it doesnt have all that,
right? I want to create a new set of lighter and, hopefully, healthier
baggage to go along with that. So, you have to see that. You know,
unfortunately, a lot of people have really vague concepts of what they
want to accomplish. They say, Well, I want to make a lot of money.
Well, whats a lot of money? Thats meaningless, right? A lot of money
could be a million dollars, it could be a thousand dollars, you know, what,
exactly, is it? What exactly, is it that you want to do?
Kenrick:
So, in other words
Mark:
You see that in your minds eye.
Kenrick:
having an ill-formed goal. In other words, Well, Ive got to do

something because things are going to get bad, or, Well, weve got to do
something to increase from last year, but I dont know what it is. In other
words, those dont work. Youre saying, have a good goal, a defined goal,
and one that we can jump on and start with.
Mark:
Thats right, without question. And thats the exact opposite of what most
people do. They say, Well, its a bad situation, and they sit around and
they talk about it. They dont do much of anything else. They pop open
another beer and feel sorry for themselves some more. So instead, thats
the first step. Just get really, really clear on that.
Kenrick:
OK, and whats the next step?
Mark:
Well, the next step is simply, to keep it in your sight. You know,
sometimes, people will get very, very clear on what they want to do, and
then, they walk away and thats it. One of the things I talk about is the
Law of Focused Attention. And in order to accomplish something, you
have to keep your attention focused on it. Imagine that youre in a room
and youre walking towards something and then, all of a sudden your
attention is diverted towards something else. Well, youre not going to be
able to walk towards that anymore, because you need to keep your
attention on that. And, thats just a metaphorical way of talking about the
way we behave day to day. So, thats the second thing, to stay focused on
it.
13
Kenrick:
OK, and out of curiosity, as youre bringing these things up, do these
techniques apply across all cultures? In other words, is this something that
we all need to do? Does it apply to everybody, or does it just apply to
certain people?
Mark:
Well, the Scientific Formula For Success, I would defy anyone to

accomplish anything without taking these three steps, period.
Kenrick:
OK.
Mark:
It doesnt matter what culture youre from.
Kenrick:
So, the first step is, we want to identify and define the goals, specifically
and clearly, and in the positive.
Mark:
Thats right, and Id say, Simply, see your target.
Kenrick:
OK, perfect, and the second one is?
Mark:
Keep it in your sights.
Kenrick:
And, the third one is?
Mark:
Hit it until you hit it.
Kenrick:
OK. You know what? Its simple, but Ill tell you what, I think it makes
all kinds of good sense to know what these three things are and to make
sure that were using them. If we start off with a clear target in mind, the
odds are, were going to hit it.
Mark:
Correct.
Kenrick:
I like to say, If you dont know where youre going, how will you know
when you get there?
Mark:
Right, and Im simplifying things. Well, hey, it is Simpleology, after all.

But, the point is we dont need to complicate things unless there is a
problem. Now, there are a lot of ancillary things that you can do if you
run into trouble at any of these steps. And thats great, and we address
that. But, if you dont run into those problems, theres no sense in
bringing them up, so this is why Im trying to boil it down to its bare
essence. And, anyone could apply that right now to their life.
Kenrick:
OK, well, I think thats phenomenal, and Id like you to make sure all of
our listeners have more information about some of the things that youre
14
doing which, like I mentioned, well do by e-mail. But, let me switch

gears with you, Mark, and I appreciate this. I think its so important that
we have our own head on straight. And, I think these there simple rules
will help all of us, if we remember it. Hey, it takes up about an inch of
writing on a piece of paper to write those things down, and I think we
focus on them and get where were going to go a lot faster. So, Im glad
we could start off with that.
But, one of the things that Ive seen in our private conversations, when
you and I have talked together over the past few years, is that you really,
are an expert on what I call framing, and Mark, you seem to be able to
frame things so powerfully and so well, that it just blows me away.
Would you talk a little bit about your concepts and thoughts on framing?
Mark:
Sure. I think that the frame is a great, almost an ubermodel of persuasion.

Almost anything you can talk about in persuasion can be broken down, in
terms of framing. And, what were talking about, for folks who are not
familiar with the concept, lets look at them metaphorically. If you have a
picture and you put a frame around the picture, that frame will create an
impression about the picture. Now, lets pull ourselves out of that, and
lets look at this another way.
Imagine that you have a painting and you see this painting sold by a very
shabbily-dressed street vendor, and its got a price tag under it that says,
Five bucks, because I need to go buy some crack cocaine. Now, take
that same picture, and go put it up in the MOMA in Manhattan, thats the
Museum of Modern Art, OK? Now, the honest people listening will say,
Yes, I would have a very, very different impression of that painting,
based on those two things. Now, there may be some very sophisticated
art critics out there who could see the genius in the street vendor. I
couldnt. I dont think most people could.
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
The point is its the information around the information, or sometimes the
information before the information thats actually more important than the
information, itself. Now, when we had this call, 10 minutes before the
call, you know, the panelists were sitting around talking, and I dont know
if you have that recorded or not, but we were talking about some of the
things that were happening in the world right now in persuasion. And, we
were sort of half-jokingly lamenting the fact that the most sophisticated
use of persuasion now, is teaching young men how to go out and pick-up
on women, not the noblest use of persuasion, but its getting the
information out there, in a way.
15
Well, just to give you an example of that, of how you could use framing,
one of these things that these pick-up artists do, is that they will have
someone else talk up the other person to a woman, before that person
walks in the room. So, lets say, for example, youre meeting a couple of
ladies and one of your friends is going to come meet you, and you really
want to set the stage so that youre going to be successful.
Well, if you talk about how kind, how generous, how intelligent, how
strong and aggressive this person is before they walk in the room, that
woman is going to have a pre-formed view of what you look like. And,
its actually going to be very, very hard to shake that view, because
everything that you do within the framework of what that person laid for
you, is going to be shifted and structured and changed.
Now, you could go in there and act like a total prince, but on the flipside
of this, if the gentleman before had framed you as a complete loser, or you
could make it really bad and you could say a sex offender, or something
like that, everything you say, even if you act like Mother Theresa, is going
to be like, what a creep!
Kenrick:
Absolutely.
Mark:
These are extreme examples, but Im just trying to drive home the point
here. And, I think that framing may, in fact beits very bold to say this
on this call and Im sure that guys have got other models, and far be it for
me to contradict what any of these panelists have got to say because weve
got some geniuses on this call. But, I mean to me, from the model from
which I work, framing is the ultimate concept. Whenever I can adjust the
frame, it almost wipes out bad persuasion.
Like when I use this in salesmanship, I try to pre-frame the buyers image
of the product before they see that. And sometimes the ad copy itself, can
be really crappy, if the pre-frame they have of how good the product is, or
how important it is, or how well its going to solve their problems, is
properly laid.
Kenrick:
Excellent. Lets talk about some examples of that. And, by the way,
Mark, one of the things I teach in some of my work, is that, He who sets
the frame first, wins.
Mark:
Thats right. Well said.
Kenrick:
Unless, he who is having the frame set, has been trained in these strategies
and can reframe them!
Mark:
Right.
16
Kenrick:
But, basically, if you succeed at setting that frame quickly, youre going to
have a big leg up on everybody else. So, I have a lot of people on this call
that are financial advisors. I probably have a lot of people on this call that
are real estate agents and investors. Lets pick one of those, and lets see
how we might apply framing in one of these situations, to our advantage.
Mark:
Sure.
Kenrick:
Do you care which one? Do you want to pick one?
Mark:
Well, just off the last one I heard was real estate. I think that theres a
fantastic way to use it there. We could even do it with all three, if you
wanted. But, just for real estate, lets imagine that you have your
prospects in your car and youre driving them out to see this house. Right
now, I live in South Beach and Im in a building thats at the very tip of it.
Now, one of the things that I heard about this building may very well have
pre-framed my view of it and persuaded me to make the decision to stay
here.
Now, I was driving up and they said, You know, you get a view over
Fisher Island from this, and did you know that Fisher Island is the highest
per capita income zip code in the entire United States? Wow! What a
picture that paints in my mind! You know, Im going to be in this highrise, overlooking the highest per capita income zip code! Goodness!
Kenrick:
Wow!
Mark:
Big value that puts on me, if I choose to be there. Now, I would like to
think it was because this was a very well kept and beautiful building that
persuaded me to be here right now. But, that piece of information may
very well have persuaded me. Now, that little thing I just brought out is
half-true, OK? That little bit of information, I learned, actually, after I
moved in here, but I was trying to create a little drama here. I am actually,
in this high-rise that overlooks Fisher Island. But, Im creating this drama
so people could feel that.
I think if that had happened, it certainly, would have affected my decision.
There is another building right next to mine, which isnt as well kept as
this one, and if I had heard that information and had only seen that one
building, I could have overlooked the fact that the building wasnt very
well kept because Ive got this frame in my mind, wow, all of these actors
and rap singers stay here. Ergo, if I stay here, Im going to have that high
value, as well. So, thats one way that someone in real estate could apply
framing, just right off the top of my head.
17
Kenrick:
Oh, thats great, thats a great example. So, really, what were saying is,
the frame around a picture affects the way in which we perceive the
picture. So, the bum holding a drawing on the street corner, vs. that same
drawing sitting in the Museum of Modern Art, is seen entirely differently.
So, we could take this and expand on it and say, for example, When you
cold call somebody, it is perceived one way, as in, you need the business.
Mark:
Thats right.
Kenrick:
But, when you structure what you do, such that you get them to call you,
all of a sudden, youre not seen as a pushy salesperson.
Mark:
Absolutely!
Kenrick:
Thats a framing issue, too, isnt it?
Mark:
Thats it. Heres another way you could apply this thats totally different.
This would be an advanced way of using framing. And, when I say this,
this sounds like something that Kenrick would say, thinking about it,
because its very much along the lines of the kind of stuff you would
teach. Im just thinking about it on the spur of the moment here, in a
different way. But imagine that you can find someone elses frame. And,
you always talk about criteria, and Im thinking this is an interesting way
to look at this same thing that youre talking about there. So youd say
criteria or perhaps frame.
You know, lets say that you understand that someone has a certain
impression of something, or that they like certain types of things, or that
they like people who are X, OK? And, if you can use that information in
that waynow this, come to think of it, this probably isnt a very ethical
way of applying this because Im thinking, hey, if you find out that
someone likes people who have certain mannerisms, and then you start to
take on those mannerisms yourself, right, or you start to become
something that youre not right, theres a line there that we may not want
to cross. I dont know, I havent really thought it through.
Kenrick:
I understand.
Mark:
But, that could be an interesting way of applying that, right? Figure out
someones existing frame, right, and then, apply that, you know, use that
in your persuasion.
Kenrick:
And, I guess Im not following you here. Explain that a little bit more?
Mark:
Well, the frame is all about not just the information around the
information, its the information preceding it, right?
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Kenrick:
Right, OK.
Mark:
If you have a frame in your life right now that has been formed throughout
your whole life, that colors everything that youre experiencingthe
communication that you and I are exchanging right now, has been preframed by our past history.
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
So, you and I are really good friends, so you ever notice with two good
buddies, when youre chatting around, you could just say, Hey, you
know, screw you! Right?
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
It doesnt matter because, you know from your past experience, that that
person would be kidding when they say that
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
because theyre your friend and you like them. And so, thats your
existing frame of the entire world. And now, youve got a number of
prejudices and preferences that youve built up. When I say, you, I
mean, the global you. This is you, me, everyone
Kenrick:
Sure.
Mark:
that weve acquired throughout our lives. And I would imagine that if
you were able to understand what those preferences were of people before
you use some persuasion on them, you can adjust that and use it in your
persuasion. OK, so for example, lets go back to the real estate guy. Lets
say that you hear that he has a preference for Victorian homes. Now,
youre taking them to a place that is not Victorian. But, there are a couple
of things that are very Victorian in the home. And, you keep pushing this.
Now, this is what a lot of salesmen talk about as hot buttons. This is
another way that you could apply the hot button, is you could say, Wow,
youll notice over on the left here, theres this wonderful Victorian
fluting, and I dont even know if that even means anything in
architecture, in this house. OK? So, you see what Im saying here?
Kenrick:
I do. That makes good sense. So, tell me, then, what would you say are
some quick ways to get someones frames?
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Mark:
Well, I would leave this to you. Youre the master of this. You know,
eliciting criteria, I suppose that you could run the same things that you run
to elicit criteria, to elicit frames.
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
You know, listen to someone, get their opinions, get their feelings, just
pay attention to those because when people are talking and Im sure that
someone really paying attention has probably learned about five or six
prejudices or opinions about me, outside of what Im saying on the
surface. And, if you just pay attention to whats presupposed in their
language. You know, Kenrick, years ago, youre the first person who
probably introduced me to that whole concept of that. Everything that we
say has got an underlying presupposition, right?
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
And, you know, if you listen to what is presupposed in someones

language that would be a very strong indicator of an existing frame, I
would imagine.
Kenrick:
So, you know, one of the things, Mark, along these linesand, I think you
and I have talked about this before, but, you know, when I look at frames,
when I think about frames, I think about it like this. Lets say that you had
a car for sale. You wanted to sell it on the open, private market. And so,
you put an ad in the paper and people call you. And, lets say, you set the
first guy up for 10:00 and the next guy up for noon and the next guy up for
2:00, and each person one at a time, comes until you finally get the car
sold. Thats one way to do it. Now, a different way to do it, which would
set a very powerful frame, at least in my opinion, is set them all to show
up at noon.
Mark:
Thats very good.
Kenrick:
Now, when they show up, whats the frame?
Mark:
The frame is that its in high demand. Thats right, thats a brilliant tactic.
Kenrick:
Yeah, its like all of a sudden, Oh, my goodness! If Im going to get this
car, I guess Id better do it! And then, I can simply say, Hey look, wow,
I cant believe that I somehow, got everybody scheduled here all at the
same time. Or, you dont have to say that whatever your own self
determines is the right thing to say. But Wow! Im glad to see every one
of you here. Since I have so many of you here, why dont we just do
something really important. I know maybe some of you here are tirekickers and some of you here really want to buy it. Whoever here is most
20
serious about wanting to get this car and you can afford what Im asking
for it, why dont you just step forward and lets have you go look at it,
first. And we could start a bidding war right on the spot!
Mark:
Thats right, thats right. Thats brilliant, I mean, whats wonderful about
this concept, is that you can apply this concept of framing in a million
creative ways. Thats why its great for people to understand the
underlying structure of these types of things, conceptually. I noticed that a
lot of salesmen will train people in sales tactics. And, thats great. Some
of these things are fantastic.
Theyve got the thing called the Columbo Close, where youre about
walk out the door and you put your hand on the door and you turn around
and go, Oh, hey, just by the way, one more thing
Kenrick:
Right.
Mark:
Now, that sets up a frame. It sets up a series of perceptions and reactions

in the persons mind. But, when you understand the underlying
psychological principle thats governing that, you can then start to create
your own tactics from that. I imagine that that tactic you just came up with
the car is something you created spur of the moment. Or, you easily could
have, based on what you understand.
Kenrick:
Right, were all in a position somewhere along the line, to sell a car. And
actually we are now, so it just brought it to mind of what one might do.
But I think everything is really a frame. And, I dont mean that to be so
global, but just to simply say everything we do operates within a frame.
So, for example, when we call somebody on the phone, are we one up, are
we one down, are we equal? When we send out a letter, are we the expert,
or are we the guy that hopes to be seen as somebody maybe someday,
possibly, who could help you?
You know, whats the frame? How are we framing ourselves? How are
we framing everyone else in our world? Is this your most cherished wife,
or is it your significant other? You know?
Mark:
Completely different frame.
Kenrick:
Yeah, you know, and Ive seen you do this over and over again, including
Simpleology, which I think is a frame, the name itself, is a frame of such
power. What was the first thing I said to you when we got on the phone,
talking about that? I was gushing practically saying Oh, my God! Where
did you come up with that name?
Mark:
Thats right, I remember that. Thats right, great.
21
Kenrick:
It blew me away. Its like, I want a name like that! That is incredible!
So, kudos to you!
Mark:
Thank you for saying that. And, thats the thing, I mean, when people
understand that their name creates a frame that will forever, color the way
people perceive their business, they would put a lot more thought into how
they create those names. My old company was called Aesop Marketing
Corporation. And, in retrospect I think wow, that doesnt really create
much of a brand at all. I didnt even have a touchstone or a tagline for that
name, you know? And, if I had, I would have gotten a lot more mileage
out of that. Thats a brilliant observation on your part.
Kenrick:
Wonderful, well, I think some of the simple frames that I see that you and
I have talked about in the past are things, salespeople wanting to be
calledoh, theyre a sales professional. Theyre not a salesperson. Im
not a housewife
Mark:
Its a courtesy call.
Kenrick:
Whats that?
Mark:
Its a courtesy call, its not a sales call.
Kenrick:
Right, Im not a housewife, Im a domestic engineer.
Mark:
Right.
Kenrick:
You know, all these are ways of framing things, but this is phenomenal.
Mark, you know what? We could go on at this for hours and, in fact, you
know what? Im going to plant a bug in all of the Persuasion Masters ear
here, that you know what we should really do down the road, is have a
round robin between us and have all of us jump in. Because, I can just
hear Kevin and Dr. Knowles and Joel and all the rest, Dave, everybody,
saying, Id like to contribute to this, too.
Mark:
Yes.
Kenrick:
This is just phenomenal. Mark, is there anything you would want to leave
us with? I guess to cap, before we go to Dr. Kevin Hogan? So first, we
want to do the simple things to put us in line for the possibilities of
success. And, those simple things, if we boil them down to three simple
things, what is it?
Mark:
Well, the first thing is to see your target. The second is to simply keep it
in your sights. The third is to hit it until you hit it.
22
Kenrick:
Perfect. And, the second thing, then, that we discussed today with you is,
how to start to consider the idea of framing and how to frame what we do,
successfully. And that believe me, could be a day-long topic of
discussion, but at least for now, weve got some really great ideas and
strategies across that I think will be really helpful. Is there anything else
youd like to leave us with or anything else youd like to mention before
we finish up?
Mark:
Actually, there is. Id like to leave you with a frame. And Ive got to tell
you, when I heard this thing was going to be at 9:00 Eastern I said, Oh,
goodness, I hope Im up first because I want to get this over with and go to
sleep. I love Kenrick, and its going to be a great call, but Im tired. But
then, I was listening to these gentlemen on the phone and I said, Theres
no way Im going to hang up, when Im done talking. Im going to listen
to every single word of this. And, I hope that that gives a very powerful
frame for everyone, you know, to understand that, I know a fair deal about
persuasion, and I am very, very curious to hear what these other gentlemen
have got to say because these guys are all geniuses. So, Im going to be
riveted to this phone until the very end.
Kenrick:
Well, thanks Mark, and I know that your time is valuable and I really
appreciate you being here. And on top of that, I hope to be able to ask
some questions for you from our audience listening right now. So, thanks
again so much! This is just so enjoyable for me, and I really appreciate
you being with me and coming on. Thanks so much, I really appreciate it,
Mark!
Mark:
Thanks for having me!

Mark Joyner: http://www.simpleology.com
Kenrick:
All right. And, I just want to remind everybody again, as we get ready
here for Kevin Hogan, that if you want to go to the blog and post some
questions, the blog address, again, is www.kenricks-breakthroughs-inpersuasion.com/blog. Kenricks-breakthroughs-in-persuasion.com/blog.
OK, so lets move right ahead. Man, I tell you what, I should have
scheduled this thing earlier and gone for four hours. This is unbelievable.
Kevin, are you there?
Kevin Hogan:
I am, can you hear me?
Kenrick:
I sure can. Im so glad youre with us and let me just take a moment and
introduce you. Im so excited to have you with us tonight, as I am each of
us. Im still marveling at the fact that were doing this. But, let me tell for
23
everyone listening, Kevin Hogan is the author of 14, count them 14 books,
including the second best-selling book about persuasion of all time, The
Psychology Of Persuasion. And, this book continues to be on the bestseller list in Japan. Its in print in over a dozen languages and even more
countries.
Kevins the Body Language and Unconscious Influence expert for the
BBC and Fox during Presidential Elections. He was the very first person
to analyze President Clintons body language in the Monica Lewinsky
affair. And you know what Kevin sometime, Im going to chat with you
privately about that.
And, recently, Kevin has been on Paula Zahn, in Cosmo, King, Selling
Power, Womens World and a slew of other publications. And, his most
recent book, The Science Of Influence, continues to be on the top 100
business best sellers in the U.S., one year after its publication. And,
Kevin, I am honored that you are here with us tonight. Thank you for
joining us. Im just so excited to be able to talk with you!
Kevin:
Well you know, after all these years, its nice to be here to link up with
you and be really on a superb panel of people. This is just great!
Kenrick:
It is wonderful. All right listen, I have written down so many things that I
want to talk with you about and that I want to bring to our listeners
tonight. And Im just going to dive into a few of these things and just hit
you with them. So again, what Im looking for Kevin, is if your back was
against the wall, a gun was to your head, and you had to pull out your best
persuasion techniques, what would we use to improve ourselves, make
more sales, and get people to do what we want them to do? And, to that
end lets start with, I think, just a phenomenal technique. You call it the
Landscape Technique. Would you explain to me what that is, and how
our listeners can use it?
Kevin:
Right, War Of The Worlds, with Tom Cruise came out earlier this
summer; superb movie. And at the beginning of the movie, Tom Cruise is
playing catch with his son in the backyard. And his son is in a really bad
mood and its in New York, so everybodys in a bad mood. And its real
life. Its just a real life thing. Theres a divorce going on in the family,
theres a smart little beautiful girl, who is a great kid, who doesnt want to
be a part at all of the divorce stuff and all that. Its just real life. And I sit
there, and I watch this thing, Im with my daughter, and were watching
this thing, and Im just drawn right into the drama.
And of course, War Of The Worlds is going to be about aliens and you
forget for a second, that youre going to see a sci-fi movie, youre sitting
here wrapped into this. And all of a sudden, Steven Spielberg has got you,
24
once again. He does what he does so great, which is get you thinking
about your landscape so he can immediately, like a vacuum cleaner, take
you from your landscape, having woken you up, making you move on
your landscape, talk about whats important to you, the divorce, the stuff
in New York thats going on, the buddies, the kid who wants to break the
window, instead of throwing it to dad, the ball, the baseball, all these little
things that are so real and so standard in life.
And then, all of a sudden, Steven Spielberg comes and says, Oh, by the
way now guys, weve got an alien thing going here. And you start to see
this thing from the sky come down, and it rips up the road. All of a
sudden youre going, 9/11 from the sky. What Steven Spielberg has done
also, is hes taken 9/11, hes taken New York City and 9/11, and hes
taken every emotion from that experience and hes woven that right into
this movie. You see the pictures of people that are missing on the walls
and all this kind of stuff. Hes got all of these pictures and now, all of a
sudden you believe that this is really happening. You are 100% convinced
that this is real. And, you go home thinking, gosh! I wonder what we can
do to protect ourselves tonight.
Thats the Landscape Technique. When youre communicating with
somebody, you want to walk onto their landscape first. Be with them.
And, we were talking about pacing and leading today, you and I were on
the telephone, and thats sort of a good way to look at it. But in one way,
it oversimplifies it because you really want to get into that persons world
and just be there and point out specific things in that world, by getting
them to talk about, eliciting those things, if you will. And then you want
to put emotion into it, sort of like if its a recipe, you want to make sure
emotion gets in there while theyre in their world. And then, you bring
them into your world, with the emotional contents coming into your
world.
It is a very powerful strategy. Its how every good copywritten letter that
Ive seen, ever, has been written. Some of the best letters that Ive written
are all Landscape newsletters. All the worst ones that Ive written, I
went back and looked and it was like, I didnt use the Landscape
Technique there. So, thats the concept.
Kenrick:
Cool, you know, as you say that, Kevin, Im reminded of a movie that I
saw sometime back. I dont remember the name of it, but it started off
with this really good sound effect, it was this bbwooooooo! This real
rumbling sound effect. And, on the screen pops this fakey looking
spaceship and then, into a set, a fakey-looking set with a bunch of fakey
looking actors. And, my immediate reaction, I mean, I loved the sound
when I heard it, but my immediate reaction was, eh! You know? And so,
the Landscape Technique, the way youre describing it, is really, a
25
powerful technique. It completely disarms everybody, and it brings

realism to us because, first, we experience the realism of our life. And
then, we introduce the concept that were working towards.
Kevin:
Well the interesting thing, you and I, we had never spoken in our lives I
hope its OK to tell this. We had never spoken in 15 years of being in the
same business here. And the other day we got on the telephone, and we
started talking about our backgrounds in religion and church and all that
kind of stuff, and we found our landscapes, we found where we had
similarity and the emotion and all that stuff that went there
Kenrick:
Thats right.
Kevin:
from that moment. Youre able to then, just build rapport massively,
because you have put emotion into a context. And its real. Theres no
sale being made here, except for you saying, Do you want to do this
phone call for free, Kev?
Kenrick:
Thats right!
Kevin:
Oh absolutely, Kenrick, Im dying for that one!
Kenrick:
Thats right! I know.
Kevin:
But we got in the landscape though, it was like you got in my landscape.
We were talking about all of the things that were similar, but more than
that, bringing in the emotions and actually walking through childhood and
those memories and those experiences and how similar they were for each
of us.
Kenrick:
Yes.
Kevin:
And once we were in the landscape, then you said, Oh, by the way
November 1st, we got this phone call.
Kenrick:
Well, thats absolutely correct, Kevin! Its wonderful to look back over it,
like you just did, and it was wonderful at the time. In fact, Im still
marveling at the degree of similarities in our backgrounds. Its truly
amazing! You know, while were walking back through Memory Lane
and doing that, you know, we need to stop and get a bite to eat from time
to time hows this for cheesey? You have a McDonalds technique.
So, lets go to McDonalds. Tell me about your McDonalds
Technique, would you?
Kevin:
You know, I travel everywhere in the world man, Im always doing a gig
somewhere. Somebody hires me to talk about body language or selling, or
26
influence. So I was in Italy this last May, and Im in McDonalds because

its familiar, right? Its like its not good, its not bad, its just familiar.
So where do you go? You go to McDonalds. OK. Im in McDonalds,
and Im looking up at the menu, and I realize that after having been in
London, and Sydney, and Warsaw, and Prague, and freakin everywhere
in the world Kenrick, every God dang McDonalds sign looks the same.
I call my buddy Tom Butler, here in Apple Valley, Minnesota and I say,
Hey, Tom, are these things the same, everywhere? He says, No, in
other countries, we use that language. But other than that, theyre
identical. And so every single time you walk into McDonalds you
literally look up, you look up and you see a menu with six specific
options, six choices if you will, out of 50 or 60 things that you could have.
In other words, McDonalds has pre-selected six specific things for you
and theres all these other things, that perhaps 15% or 20% of the people
will buy. But, they have all of these specific items, the Chicken Fillet, and
the Fish Fillet and the Big Mac and the Quarter Pounder with Cheese.
And theyre all pre-selected with fries and a Diet Coke or whatever. And
the pictures are all there, every time you go in. It dawned on me, that this
is a great metaphor for every single thing that we do in business, because
what has McDonalds done? McDonalds has taught us how to use choice
reduction. McDonalds sells dozens of products, food items if you will,
from the front of the store there. But really, they only sell six of those,
what -- four dozen things. I mean, thats really whats selling. And they
do it by choice reduction. So they have all these options for you, but they
have then, pre-selected six things which (if you want to go into it) well
talk about choice reduction and how that can make you a millionaire
without any difficulty whatsoever.
So anyway, thats the McDonalds Technique. When you have your
website have tons of information. You go to my website, you can just pile
it on and theres 50 ala cart items, but there are six things at the top that
never change. And thats the deal. Thats what you want to have on your
website. If you want to start making money at your website, you want to
be thinking, what do I want people to buy every single time they come in
here? What do I want them to see, what do I want them to look at?
Whats important to me? And do I have their attention?
In other words, if it was just the six items up there, people would freak
out, because theyd go like, Oh, my God! Theres six things I could
have, I dont know what to do! But theres not. Theres 50, of which six
are pre-selected and now, you feel good and relaxed inside. It is an
amazing, powerful tool. Think about that. For everything you do in your
life, you sell 50 mutual funds? Cool! What are the six that you want to
27
sell to your clients? And have those ready to go because thats where
sales begins, choice reduction.
Kenrick:
This is really fascinating, Kevin, because youre talking about choice

reduction. First of all, define choice reduction, would you? I just want to
make sure that all our listeners are on the same page.
Kevin:
I sell probablyoh, my God, weve got like 60 or 70 items in our store.

But you cant sell 60 or 70 items because people get whats called
dissonance, cognitive dissonance. In other words, they freak out, OK?
Thats my way of saying it. And so what you want to do, is you want to
reduce the number of choices that people are seeing, so that its easier for
them to select. In my store, there are six items exactly on the front page
that people will buy. And we can tell you that 80 odd percent of people, I
dont know the exact number this month, but 80 odd percent will buy one
of those six highlighted items on the front page of the store, in contrast to
all the other stuff that we have in stock. It doesnt matter what it is. We
put it on the front page, it sells.
Kenrick:
Wow! OK, so we know then, what this means. What does it mean for
us I guess where Im headed is, what do we do with it on a website? I
know that if we put a whole bunch of things on there, why doesnt that
drive people away or cause them not to be able to make a choice?
Kevin:
Well you know, let me just digress for a second. Here you go, youve
got Mark Joyner talking about cute girls and men. Man, Im going to talk
about jelly! But, just think about this for a second, Kenrick, at Stanford,
these guys, they went into a grocery story, these guys that are researchers,
OK? And, they had two tables, set up two tables. One table has 24 jars of
jelly, different kinds of jellies. And, on this other one, theres like six
kinds of jams. And as you would guesstimate, perhaps 60% of all the
people who stopped at the table with 24 jams, they tasted some of the jam,
which is pretty good. Thats better than half. And then, only 40% of
those people who stopped at the table with the six jams, only 40% tasted
it, OK? So, youre like, Oh! So, obviously, we should have a table with
24 jams on it, and we should have 24 choices for people on our website.
Absolutely not. What happens when youre selling jelly or on your
website is this, 30% of all of the people who stopped at the table with the
six jams, purchased one of the jams. So, in other words, about 90% of all
of the sales that were made, were made at the table that just had the six
jams. And thats the whole thing. So, when Im at my website and I have
all of these possible things that you can do. I can you tell you from
tracking. We dont know who the heck you are Kenrick, when you come,
unless it says Tacoma, Washington, with your ISP. So, we dont know
who you are, if youre looking at the website. But we watch what people
28
do and how they run around our website. And we know that they will
either hit one of the six buttons at the top. Thats about the 80 percentile.
And then, the other 20% will start hitting on the side clicks, the articles
that are up there. And theres a pile of them. I think theres 111 articles
actually, right now, on the left-hand side that people can click and read for
free and get all this cool stuff. And then every single thing leads you back
either to a product in the store or back to the front page of the web page
because we want people to see that same picture every single time they
come to the website.
So, you have your six things that you want people to look at, and six is a
good number. Six is a really good number. Its not too many. Theres
sort of an old rule in NLP that five plus or minus two is where you want to
be and you never want to try to sell too many things. And in fact, without
going into all the academic stuff, the fewer choices that you have, the
higher the total volume of sales that youre going to have. This will vary
from product to product and idea to idea, but thats the deal. People will
always say, Kevin, why dont you have like all these different things of
coffee available? Because when we used to do that five, six, seven years
ago, we didnt make any sales and then as soon as we reduced things
down to one or two items that you could buy or one class that you could
sign up for, then all of a sudden, the dollar volume just skyrocketed. So, I
hope that helps. Does that help a little bit?
Kenrick:
Yes, oh, yes, McDonalds Technique.
Kevin:
McDonalds, man!
Kenrick:
Ill remember that name, I love it. Thats really great. And, Super Size
that.
Kevin:
Thats the deal!
Kenrick:
Kevin, I want to bring usman, we just need more time for this.
Kevin:
I have time.
Kenrick:
I want to go through something. Id like you to talk about anticipated

regret. I think this is such a powerful, powerful concept. What is
anticipated regret and why do we need to know about it as sales people
and persuaders?
Kevin:
To go back to Marks thing because thats all of a sudden where my head

goes. So there you are now, and youre at the bar, at the restaurant or
whatever and theres a cute girl over there, and you ask her to go out..
29
OK, well you know that inside of her head shes saying, Well jeez, I
dont really want to go out with that goofy-looking Kevin Hogan dude.
Man, hes just weird! You know? But then, part of her goes she
oscillates, she goes back and forth. She says, But you know, he is kind of
nice and he does OK, so maybe hed be kind of fun. And then she flips
back to the other side.
So whats happening, its as the request for time to be spent with her
comes and its asked again for example, the regret potential, the potential
that she will feel regret tomorrow grows. Now you dont want that, right?
You dont want people to feel like theyre going to get buyers remorse
about your product or your service or your seminars or going to college.
Kenrick:
Thats the truth.
Kevin:
You want to eliminate buyers remorse before it happens. You want to

eliminate the anticipation of regret.
Kenrick:
Right.
Kevin:
So,what you do, is you take a Kenrick Cleveland kind of a language

pattern technique and combine it with a little bit of science, mix it all up
and you get Harry Potter magic. And heres what you do. You say, You
know what? Heres the thing. We could go out to the movie tonight, and
you could end up going home, going, God I didnt have a good time.
That just was a bummer. Why did I even do that? I wasted three hours on
that goofy nut? What was I thinking? You know? Or, you could go out,
have the best time of your life and find out that you had the person that
you wanted to hang out with for the rest of your life. Now I dont know
whats going to happen, I dont even want to think about it. But that gives
you a choice. Thats whats going to happen. What are the options? How
bad is the bad and how good is the good?
I exaggerated just for exaggeration purposes, but you want to tell people,
what is your defect. You want to tell people about what are the bad things
because thats what theyre thinking about. As soon as you tell people
what they might regret, You know, Kev, its like that Lexus is $50,000. I
could regret spending that money. Well, yes, you could, you may not
drive the doggone car that much. Most people who make a ton of money
dont drive their car because theyre always in an airplane. I drive about
6,000 a year. Ill have my Honda for 25 years, itll never get miles on it.
So you want to make sure that people are thinking into the future. Bring
them out to the future. Have them look at what the future is, if they buy
their product, your product, your service or you, if thats the thing. And
then, what happens if its bad and then, finish up with, Hey, but what
30
happens if its good and what is the difference here, really? What do you
really lose, compared to what you can win? And what that does is, it
reduces resistance. And, of course, Dr. Knowles will talk to you about the
Alpha and Omega Strategies and all that kind of stuff.
But thats the concept. You know theyre oscillating back and forth. You
know the potential for buyers remorse is there. But its more than
potential. Its a fact. Heres the other fact though, is that people always
think and, Im not kidding at all on this, people think Oh, they dont
like me, they dont like me. The fact is, people are flipping between yes
and no, yes and no, yes and no for your entire conversation and the reason
people dont make sales is because they dont look for those opportunities
that they have when the person has oscillated back to yes. And they dont
ask, then.
Kenrick:
OK, let me just make sure. So,lets say weve got somebody whos going
back and forth. So what were saying now is, this anticipated regret can
help stop the oscillation back and forth that we experience when were
persuading. Is that right?
Kevin:
Precisely, because youre taking them into the future. With imagine,
you notice how many times Mark Joyner uses the word, imagine?
Kenrick:
Right.
Kevin:
OK, I mean, what did he use that word like 25 times in 25 minutes?
Kenrick:
Yes.
Kevin:
Some people dont say um that often, OK? Well the reason Mark uses
that word, imagine, is because it is the most non-threatening word on
our planet. It does not demand that you do anything. It is a totally benign
word and it absolutely is a certain thing that you will imagine what he asks
you to imagine because theres no threat. So all you do, is you simply say,
Imagine this you take them out in the future. And while theyre on
the yes side because, you want to implant the no response, you want
them to say, Oh my God, you know this could be a terrible thing, I could
go to college, spend $40,000 of my money. It could be pure insanity!
And then, you say, But, you know what? That Bachelors Degree man,
thats worth 45% more money, which averages out to be uh, about 1.4
million dollars over the course of your life. Not that thats anything
important, though.
Kenrick:
OK now, so are you suggesting that we want to take them to the future on
the positive side, or we want to take them to the future on the negative
side?
31
Kevin:
Both. You start them on the negative, you bring them out five years, five
weeks, whatever the thing is, and you look at it and you look at it on the
negative. You point out whatever your flaws, your fatal defect,
whatevers bad about you, whatever it is. And then you contrast it,
immediately while youre out there in the future, you contrast it with
that which is positive by you pulling out your defect, which is what they
were thinking about in the first place, OK?
They were thinking about that. Thats why they were oscillating, part of
the reason at least. And then you nailed it and now, they dont have to
think about it any more because youve said it, youre not trying to hide it.
Poof! There it is. And then you say, And, by the way, what else could
happen? We could go out and it could be wonderful, it could be amazing.
And then, we have an opportunity to go out again and have fun again and
etc., etc., etc., by the car, whatever it is.
Kenrick:
Got it.
Kevin:
The power is enormous. Put it in your sales letters, put it in your

presentations, put it in your work with students, anything youre doing, put
it with your kids, youll regain some of your sanity.
Kenrick:
So lets say that we have an advisor and the advisor is making a

presentation for several hundred thousand dollars of money to be invested
in some insurance products and some mutual fund products, etc., and the
advisor might, if Im understanding you correctly, could possibly say
something to the order of, All right, so here is my suggestion that you
invest $200,000 in these following instruments as Ive gone through with
you. And of course, you might be thinking about Actually, you do it,
Kevin. Oh, Ill start. You might be thinking about, well, my God, thats
$200,000!
Kevin:
Yeah, its $200,000, and this is going to be your retirement and you know
what? That $200,000, the stock market is going sideways right now. I
mean its been at 10,000 for what? For five years. So here you are, you
could be going sideways for 10 freakin more years. But the other
alternative is this: Over the last 100 years, the market runs up about 7% a
year over the history of the market. Heres the thing, you could put the
same money in T-bills and have 4% and have inflation, you have nothing
at the end of your life except for about four years worth of income. So,
even if you dont do amazing in the stock market, even if you dont get
7% or 8% or 9%, youre still going to end up with three, four, five times
as much money period, and there you are.
32
So, I brought you to the negative, I showed you exactly what can happen if
you just put your money in T-bills which, by the way, theres no money
for me as a salesperson, right?
Kenrick:
Right.
Kevin:
OK, I make nothing if I sell a bond.
Kenrick:
Thats right.
Kevin:
I make 3% or 1-1/2%, depending on how my split is with my company, if

I sell American Century Gift Trust, or whatever.
Kenrick:
Right.
Kevin:
OK? So bring them out and show them the negative and say, By the
way, its just good business to be honest, period. And, thats one of the
reasons that this is so powerful, is were so used to dealing with people
that tell us, Theres nothing that could possibly go wrong with anything
in the whole world, if you do business with me. The fact is when I put a
sales letter out there, I say, Look, heres the deal. I dont know if its
perfect. Im going to freakin figure it out and youre going to tell me if
theres a mistake and were going to make it better the next time and
replace your CD, if there is a mistake.
Kenrick:
There you go!
Kevin:
And, people go, Oh, my God! Thats pretty cool! Ive never heard that
kind of stuff before!
Kenrick:
So in reality, everything we do can be framed first, and this is like a

framing principle in a sense. But it could be framed first, but we can
project out, imagine well use Marks imagine. Well go out to the
future and bring up the fact that, Well gee, I recognize this is an awful lot
of money and wow, its kind of scary to invest that much money. But by
the same token, here we have $200,000 doing a $5,000,000 job. And
thats got to feel pretty darn good, doesnt it?
Kevin:
Yeah, thats it. And when you highlight my pain, my fear and you
explicitly say what it is, so I dont have to. Its got to be more than its
just scary. Its got to be, Hey look, I know its scary because hey, its
$200,000. And the fact is, that you dont want to lose $20,000 of that
principal. Now, I drew the picture of what its going to look like in five
years, in a bad scenario. But, the fact is, that the probability is, that if you
stick it in T-bills, its not going to make any difference one way or the
other because youre not going to have any money with the T-bills
33
anyhow. Thats your only alternative. So you can put it over here. And,
the chances are pretty doggone good that in 10, 15, 20, 25 years, that
youre going to have the most likely scenario, which is that history will
repeat itself, because it does. And, you will do OK, if a $1,000,000 out of
$200,000 is OK for you.
Kenrick:
Yep.
Kevin:
Thats the more likely scenario. And because I brought up the negative, I
not only A, kept the law, which I have to do this kind of stuff with security
sales by the way. So, its just good business but its also, the easiest way
to make the sale. Create the negative, highlight it, punch it, and then
highlight the positive and punch it and then say, What do you think?
Kenrick:
Mark, Ill tell you something, as youre talking, first of all, I get so excited
because I love these strategies. This is
Kevin:
Did you call me Mark, Bill? Im going to have to hit you, Kenrick!
Kenrick:
Oh, my goodness, Im sorry, Kevin, I apologize!
Kevin:
Mark Joyners going, Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey!
Kenrick:
Thats right! Well no problem, Sam, lets keep on going. Well get this
figured out. No Kevin, I apologize. But listen, one of the things that I get
so excited about, I love these kinds of skills and Ill tell you, the people
listening are absolutelyI know some of them are saying to themselves,
this would scare the dickens out of me to present the negative side of my
argument like this and especially, to bring it up first while Im doing this
imagination.
Kevin:
Yeah! Absolutely it does. You know, one of the reasons that people
you know, we never got to talking about what you sold like 20 years ago,
but I sold stuff like timesharing and all kinds of stuff that embarrasses the
living beJesus out of me to say that I sold. And I sold all this stuff, and we
were always looking for a percentage. And, the percentage was always
the same for every product that you ever sold, it was always 10%. You
had a script and you were going to sell 10% of the people because 10% of
the people will respond if youre beating the living hell out of them with a
baseball bat over their head.
Kenrick:
Thats right.
Kevin:
But, percentages change a whole bunch as soon as you wire into how
people are genetically designed. And we are designed to flee or kill, OK?
So when the salesman calls and he makes a presentation thats too good to
34
be true, he will either kill you by hitting the door against your face, or he
will run and say, I gotta go, I gotta go, I cant talk to you! But if you
say something honest and you show, immediately, that you have integrity,
by punching your product, the weakness of your productwe all have
weaknesses, we all have something thats wrong with us, thats imperfect.
And you hit on that and it scares the living heck out of you for the first
few months. Maybe even the first year, now that I think about it, that you
do it. But you do it because its going to be effective. Then, all of a
sudden, there is no more 10%. Now, youre selling, literally, and I mean
literally, twice or two and a half or three and a half times as much product.
Kenrick:
Well, you know something? I tell you, I say all the time, its the people
that are highly trained in persuasion skills that do the things that the rest of
the world dont do, and its why they get the results. I think this is it.
Kevin, if you had to tell me your balls to the wall, gun to the head, best
technique, then, of what youve gone through so far, which of the ones
youve told me would equal that technique?
Kevin:
Choice reduction. I use the Kevin Hogan Close, which is, Kenrick,
heres the deal. Listen, out of all the things that are on my website, all of
the things that you can do with me in the course of the year And, Im
not going to mention a product or anything, but heres how I would do it,
if I was going to do it. Somebody e-mails me, I always tell them,
specifically, what to buy. You say, Kev, I want to learn the latest stuff
thats going on on Influence, and I say, OK then, I want you to buy this
product right here because you know what? You could have all the rest of
them, but one thing at a time. Get this one, get it today.
And so, youve reduced choice. And then you direct people to the answer.
Dont let people choose between Option A and B because now, youre
back to percentages. Then they say, Oh, Ill have the one thats blue.
Thats old days and that stuff is fine, but Ill tell you what, when you look
at the websites, when you look at the sales people who are selling, Jeffrey
Gitomer doesnt say, Oh, would you like A or B? He just says, Youll
take A, and thatll be with mustard. And thats how you sell. You say, I
want you to do this because they asked me. I develop the relationship
first. If you had the proverbial thing against my head and I had to say
something use a Kevin Hogan Close, reduce choice, break it down.
Break it down to six, then two, then one, then say, This is what you want,
I promise.
Kenrick:
Ah, thats great! Wonderful! Kevin, I am so excited to talk to you. Im

getting tired of repeating myself, but you know what? Weve just got to
get us all on a call here sometime and just go round robin with each other.
I tell you what, I think all of us would love to just pipe in and chat, and
35
pick your brains even more. Youve been phenomenal! Thank you so
much for all that youve shared!
Kevin:
Well, youre welcome. You guys have a good night, and maybe, well see
you again at the end of the call here!
Kevin Hogan: http://www.kevinhogan.com
Kenrick:
That sounds really good. Id love to be able to ask you some questions
from the audience. And, what lets do right now, lets take two minutes,
while we are preparing for Dr. Eric Knowles to join us. Lets just take
two minutes and Im going to save this recording to make sure that
everything goes right. Well let you get a drink real quick, run to the
facilities, if you need. But, lets go ahead and just take a quick break and
well be re-joining you here in two minutes from right now.
Kenrick:
OK, well, I think its been about two minutes. Were now in Part 2 of the
Persuasion Masters Teleconference. And boy, we have had phenomenal
information so far. Mark Joyner has shared some fascinating things with
us. Kevin Hogan has just lit up the phone here with all sorts of wonderful
information. And now, were going to move on to Dr. Eric Knowles. Dr.
Knowles, are you with us?
Eric:
Great.
Kenrick:
Wonderful. Well, let me just tell everyone who you are and then, well
jump right in.
Eric:
OK, let them know that my name is Eric. The doctor part, Im very proud
of, but for tonight and when I meet you, my name is Eric.
Kenrick:
OK, all right so, Dr. Knowles (no, Im just kidding) all right, so Eric
is a leading researcher of the cutting edge concept of Reducing Resistance
to increase persuasion. And this, Im telling you guys, its the latest,
hottest and best information out there. Its unbelievable! Eric is the editor
of the groundbreaking book, Resistance And Persuasion. He is
Professor of Psychology at the University of Arkansas and the Chief
Scientist at OmegaChange.com. And I just have to say how thrilled I am
that youre willing to join me on this call tonight, Eric. Thank you so
much for being here with us!
Eric:
Kenrick, I wouldnt have missed it for the world.
36
Kenrick:
Great. Listen, I dont know how many people on our call today know
about what you do, but by golly, they will when we get done.
Eric:
Hopefully.
Kenrick:
Eric has created the Omega Strategies, and these are a series of strategies
that are just absolutely phenomenal. And, theyre oriented towards
disbursing and eliminating resistance. And, as I have become more aware
of both who you are and what you do, I am just stunned at the power of
what these kinds of things will do.
So, let me ask you, first of all, just so we can all come up to speed, tell me
just a little bit about what are the Omega Strategies? I know Ive said this
about reducing resistance, but just fill me in a little bit more on that, would
you?
Kenrick:
Sure. My good friend Bob Cialdini, hes written a wonderful book about
social influence, where he gives six principles; which Ive been teaching
for years and years. And it became clearer and clearer to me that those six
principles are always adding value to the arguments of the products that
youre selling. And, as I looked at some of our psychological problems,
like behavioral health and why people werent taking better care of
themselves, I realized its not because they dont know the benefits of
living a long life or eating a healthy diet or getting exercise. There has to
be some kind of reluctance involved. And that, for so much of what we
do, that the easiest way to change people is to identify that reluctance and
to see what we can do to remove it or at least, remove it from the situation.
And as I started thinking about these different kinds of change strategies, I
saw that what Bob was talking about was what I called Alpha Strategies,
those things where we try to explain the benefits and promote the
products. And there are a whole separate set of strategies that I called
Omega Strategies, that are really aimed at identifying what the
resistance to change, resistance to the sales are, and then dealing with that
resistance; trying to remove it, trying to side-step it, trying to change it and
probably most effective, trying to use it.
And weve already, been talking about several of those. Kevin talked
about two of my favorite Omega strategies, one of which is to
acknowledge resistance. Youve got to acknowledge resistances that
people have because that diffuses it. Its like, its that unspoken elephant
in the corner of the room and if you dont deal with it, it gets to be just
larger and larger. So by acknowledging resistance or having people
acknowledge their own resistance, its a very effective strategy, to reduce
its importance.
37
Kenrick:
Now, what do you mean having people acknowledge?
Eric:
To have them tell you what their resistances are.
Kenrick:
Ah! OK, so we can get people to tell us some of these sometimes, and
then, we can even structure around them. I know that youve done some
stuff that you gave me a couple of examples and they illustrate what I
think youre talking about, and they just do it phenomenally. Would you
share with us the story that you mentioned to me about the Girl Scouts?
They were selling cupcakes?
Eric:
Well now, the first thing we need to do is to figure out the kind of
resistance that someone has. And when we do our consulting thats really
a major part of the process. To find out whats the nature of the resistance
because resistance can come from all sorts of places. We know that
people dont like to be pushed on, so theres that kind of resistance that
says, I dont want to be persuaded, I dont want to be influenced. But,
theres also the kind of resistance that is the careful scrutiny of things. If
youre trying to sell something or create a change, it feels like its never
going to close. They always have more questions.
But, a lot of the resistance that we deal with is just the inertia. People
dont want to change, they dont want to move from where they are. And,
when they do that, its like all they hear is babble. If theyve decided they
dont want to change, its very hard to get through. And so, weve been
using a technique demonstrating what we call a Disrupt and Reframe
Technique, where we throw in something odd into the conversation.
And, it cant be so odd that people say, Who is this person? Why are
they so weird? But just a little subtle reframing and you know this from
your language work. Following it up with, then a quick persuasive
message.
For instance, I had some students selling cupcakes on campus at the
University of Arkansas for a sorority. And they walked around and when
they normally said, Would you like to buy these cupcakes? Theyre
delicious, they sold about 40% of the people that they walked up to. But,
when, at my direction, they walked up and said, Would you like to buy
these half-cakes? Theyre delicious, we sold about 65% of the people
that we asked.
It sounds like such a trivial little difference, and weve done it with all
sorts of other kinds of little speech dysfluencies and disruptions. For
instance, weve sold note cards by saying, These are 300 pennies. A set
of eight cards is 300 pennies, theyre quite a bargain. Would you like to
buy some? And, that doubled sales over just saying, These are $3.00,
would you like to buy some? What it is is that this disruptionis just
38
enough to bring the people back to the conversation, so that they can hear
our persuasive message. With the cupcakes its they were delicious, and
with the note cards, its that they are a bargain.
What was funny in the research, was that the disruption by itself, didnt
work and the persuasive message by itself, didnt work. It was only when
they were in that combination and in that order, were they effective. And,
thats disrupting then, that kind of inertial resistance - that inertia
resistance and kind of bringing them back to the conversation.
Kenrick:
Wow, I just think thats brilliant! I told my wife that and it had the same
effect on her. She just went, Half-cakes? Wow!
Eric:
Yeah.
Kenrick:
I love it. And, you did something with, you said like 300 pennies or
something like that.
Eric:
Yes, we were selling note cards.
Kenrick:
Yeah, thats the note cards, OK.
Eric:
Yeah.
Kenrick:
I think thats phenomenal. So, tell me then, of the Omega Strategies, if I

were to put you under the same pressure here and say, if you had your
back up against the wall and you just had to tell me the best strategy that
we possibly could, lets just pick one. Lets take real estate, as an
example.
Eric:
OK.
Kenrick:
And, you had to communicate to a real estate agent an Omega Strategy

that would make a dramatic impact in their life, give me an example of
one.
Eric:
Well sure, the first thing we would do would be to find out what the
source of the resistance is, because which strategy you use, really depends
on the kind of resistance youre dealing with.
Kenrick:
OK.
Eric:
So, lets say that a real estate agents working with someone, showing
them houses and theres a price resistance. They look at the house and
say, Oh, gosh, thats a third more than what I budgeted for. And so,
39
youre showing them a $300,000 house and they budgeted $220,000 for it
and theyre really resisting to the price.
Kenrick:
Right.
Eric:
Well, one of the strategies, one of the things that we know, is that the
judgment of a house, of anything that were judging is as dependent on the
implicit comparisons, as it is on the quality of the house itself. That house
that theyre resisting at $300,000 is really being compared to the budget,
or the vision they had of their $220,000 house. And that the easiest thing
to do to change that resistance, would be to change the comparison.
Now, theres an interesting piece of research that shows that people in the
Olympics who won a medal, and it turns out that the bronze medal
winners are happier than the silver medal winners, both in their selfreports and when people look at them receiving their medals. Next
Olympics you watch, and youll see that the silver medal winners have
more frowns and more stoic faces. The bronze medal winners are all
smiles and just as happy as they can be. And the reason is because the
comparison is different. The bronze medal winners are comparing
themselves to everybody who didnt win a medal. The silver medal
winners are comparing themselves to the gold medal, and feel worse for
that.
Kenrick:
Oh, interesting!
Eric:
But, using that same principle then, if youre a real estate salesperson, and
youre hearing price resistance, the thing to do is to go find a $400,000
house to show them. And just say, I just want you to see this house,
its fantastic! And walk through it. Now it becomes the new
comparison, which makes the $300,000 house seem much more
reasonable.
Kenrick:
You know, one of the things that I know real estate agents deal with all the
time and I may be putting you too much on the spot here, but its kind of
like this house comparison. Its a commission comparison. So, what
happens is they say, Yes, Ill sell your house, and lets take a look and Ill
list it for you. And, the person says, Well yes, thats great, but I want to
shop this around and see if I can find an agent who will do it for less.
And so, theyre looking for agents to cut their commissions. Is that
enough for us to look at some kind of an Omega Strategy that might make
a difference?
Eric:
There are lots of different Omega Strategies that would make a difference
for that. I mean the counter, is that you are an agent who would be doing
more, and represent the house better in that you have more hits on your
40
websites and that sort of thing. The thing to do in that case, is to

acknowledge the resistance. Dont try to overwhelm it. Just try to
acknowledge the resistance, say that you hear it, ask for it to be explained
a little bit and then, to deal with it directly.
Kenrick:
OK, so in other words acknowledgesay, Listen Supposing they

said, Well, Id like to shop this and see if I cant find someone thatll do
it a little bit less expensive, and you might want to say something like,
Well, I think thats appropriate and maybe you could find somebody that
could do it a little bit less expensive. Like the sign on the Baskin and
Robbins says, You may always be able to find someone who will do it for
less, but you know you have to wonder what it is that youre not getting, I
suppose, at the same time.
Eric:
Right, exactly.
Kenrick:
But, I can certainly, understand a desire to save money and to not spend
as much money and I think that makes sense. Lets go out
Eric:
Well, and then of course, you would follow that up the reasons why youre
a good real estate agent, why it would be a good idea to go with you. But,
by not acknowledging it, by just jumping into your reasons, your Alpha
Strategy reasons for choosing me as a real estate agent, youre still not
dealing with the resistance. By acknowledging it and say, I hear the
resistance and I understand it, you can save money by finding an agent
who would take 3% less, but and then go into the fact that you have so
many clients, or so many potential clients, potential buyers, that theyre
likely to make that back in spades by the people who buy your house.
Kenrick:
Wow, excellent. You know, Ive been dying to ask you this and you
know, I just need to sit you down on the phone or in person, or bring you
to one of my seminars or something, sometime, but you know, this
Disruption Technique that you are talking about I just love this. In fact,
one of the things that I used to do just to play at restaurants, is similar.
The waitress would come up and say, What would you like to eat, you
know, for dinner. And, Id say, Well, Id like some pig lips and cheese.
Eric:
Uh huh.
Kenrick:
And, shed look at me, you know, and when Id see her kind of go off into
her own world, trying to figure out what I said, I would change my tone
and I would say, Forget what everyone orders at this table, and dont
bring us anything! And, she looked at me like, What? And, I said,
Im sorry, what did you ask me? And, she goes, Well, what would you
like to eat for dinner? And, I said, Oh, well, why dont you bring me
some coffee to start with, and Ill figure it out. And, I mean to tell you, I
41
didnt get anything, nobody at our table. I mean, it was unbelievable! So,
tell me
Eric:
Because, they followed the suggestion to forget.
Kenrick:
Thats right, I followed the disruption with a suggestion. And, so tell me,
explain to me, how do we come up with these disruption techniques? I
mean, maybe its just youre gifted with it, I dont know. But, is there a
way to come up with them, or how do you think to come up with them, at
least?
Eric:
Well, I mean, we come at it from a psychological theory point of view,

and thats why we started doing this research because we knew that
disruptions would bring people out of that kind of refusal script that they
have when they hear you going, Blah, blah, blah. And, it would awaken
them up. It would alsobecause its confusing, because its kind of
unexpected, because they dont really know what it is, it increases I think,
a desire for certainty. And so, you provide them the certainty with the
persuasive message. I mean its funny, because the disruption, by itself,
has no effect. So, it is something that gives power to whatever comes
next.
Kenrick:
OK, so it gives power by sort of diffusing things, temporarily, is that sort

of what Im hearing?
Eric:
Thats what I think, yeah.
Kenrick:
OK and so, can this be used in higher ticket items?
Eric:
You know, not that I know of. I cant think of a case. Weve been using
it with very small cost items because were interested in understanding the
phenomenon. So, weve been doing academic research on that.
Kenrick:
Right. So, in other words, I couldnt go up to someone and say, Well,

its only 200,000,000 pennies?
Eric:
Well, I wouldnt say that, but if you look at I think it is being used. If
you look at ad campaigns for automobiles, you see that there are lots of
cases where there are unexpected elements puzzling, confusing
elements. And that are then, followed by a very direct message.
Volkswagen had a number in the past. I cant think of good examples
right now, but I think any kind of unusual element can act like this
disruption.
Kenrick:
OK, that makes really good sense. All right, tell us more.
42
Eric:
Well, Kevin was talking about moving events into the future, asking
people to think about it in the future. And weve found that that is a very,
very effective strategy because we think about things in the future
differently than we think about things right now. For most things, we
think about them in a more abstract manner in the future. For most things,
we think more about the benefits and less about the costs; more about the
reasons for wanting something or doing something, and less about the
hassles involved in doing it. And so, if you ask someone to do something
right now, what they focus on really, is the hassles, the costs of doing it
right now.
Kenrick:
Uh huh.
Eric:
If you ask them to put it into the future, the hassles become less important
for the future. So, they focus more on the benefits of whatever it is that
youre trying to tell them. Now, we did an interesting thing in England a
summer ago. We did some work for a broadband company. Apparently,
England is having a pretty low rate of acceptance from moving from
phone up modems to broadbands. So we worked with a company there,
who just wanted to get their brochure out, in the hands of people who were
still using the phone modems.
And, when we said, Would you like to receive a brochure from this ISP
company this was a nationwide telephone survey we got about 12%
of the people to say, Yes. But, when we said, Your Internet service
provider will have a broadband brochure available in about a month, could
we send it to you then? we got about 24% of the people saying, Yes,
that we could send it to them then. And I think the reason why is because
people think about things very differently, if they put it into the future,
even as short as a month.
Kenrick:
Wow! Thats really interesting, so
Eric:
Yeah, and because the resistances are to doing it I mean, resistances are
something that happen immediately. Theyre here and now kinds of
things. And so, Kevins suggestion of asking people to think about things
in the future especially, to think about the bad things and the good things,
is a very effective way because, in the future, the bad things are very much
diminished, and the good things are whats really important. But if you
ask people to think about the bad things and the good things of doing this
right now; in many cases the good gets overshadowed by the costs, and the
hassles and the bad things.
Kenrick:
Wow! Thats really something. I love that idea. Thats brilliant! You
know, coming up with sort of a silly reframe or a way to disrupt things a
little bit, my marketing guy did the same kind of thing. He sold beds.
43
And, when he would get right down to the right bed with people, he would
say to them, Well, you know, its only 758 potatoes. And, this bed is
really going to work wonderfully for you. Youll love it!
Eric:
OK.
Kenrick:
You know, and it worked. Its just such a What? Its brilliant, its just
brilliant! I love these ideas, I love these ideas, these are incredible!
Eric:
Well, they are. Now, some of the Omega Strategies are so well known
and so straightforward. I tell people, The prototypic Omega strategy is a
guarantee, because a guarantee, if you offer a guarantee my wife says,
Ah, I dont want to go to another departmental party, its so boring!
And, I say, Well, OK, the moment it becomes boring, you scratch your
ear and I guarantee, well go home, OK? I offer her a guarantee, and it
diffuses her resistance to go to the party because its the most effective
strategy.
Kenrick:
Uh huh.
Eric:
You know, a guarantee on a refrigerator, it doesnt make the refrigerator

any colder, it doesnt make it fit any better in your kitchen. It just takes
away another piece of resistance that you might have to purchasing it.
Kenrick:
That makes sense. That makes really good sense. Well, I tell you, I think
that the resistance strategies and looking at overcoming them is probably,
one of the greatest things that persuaders and salespeople can do because it
makes giant differences, wherever you go. You know, were just going to
end up going over time tonight, even more so than I had thought. But, you
know what, would you just share with us real quick, you talked to me
about a strategy of eliminating resistance in which you did some work
with the Department of Transportation, I believe it was?
Eric:
OK. Yeah, its interesting, they called me in and asked me to help them
think about how to increase seatbelt usage in the United States; which the
first thing that struck me, was the fact that theyve already got a 79%
market share. I mean, 79% of the peopleof the drivers, use seatbelts.
But theyve identified the target group that doesnt, as primarily, young
male pick-up drivers. And they were trying to think about how to get to
those folks because theyre pretty contrary and of course, the
advertisements that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
uses are all of these death images of things; that youve got to click your
seatbelt, or youll end up oozing protoplasm on the highway.
And so, we thought about it, and I came up with a suggestion that I
thought might work. And, its the same kind of thing that Mark Joyner
44
talked about, its reframing. You need to reframe seatbelt usage from
being something thats demanded by the police and that youd get a ticket
for if you didnt do it and to preserve your life, and frame it as something
else. What I thought of was, to frame it as a way of expressing yourself,
especially if youre a young Western pick-up driver. What I suggested
was they find somebody who would market little plastic strips about 2
long and 2 wide that said, Lets rodeo! And, you could paste these on
the front of your seatbelt, and it could only be shown when the seatbelt
was fastened.
But now, people would be using these as like bumper stickers, as symbols
to express who they were. And, that would get at this target group, I
thought. Its a way of side-stepping the resistance, these people are
saying, Im not going to do whateverwhat any cop tells me and Im not
going to believe that Im going to die.
Kenrick:
Right.
Eric:
You need to change the frame for seatbelt usage, away from something
thats my social obligation or its something Im doing for my own safety,
and frame it as something that Im going to use to express myself.
Kenrick:
So, it becomes an expression of your life
Eric:
Exactly.
Kenrick:
not something to resist.
Eric:
Right, exactly.
Kenrick:
You know, when we were talking about it, I mean, it could be just
phenomenal. You had mentioned to me, you could have people have
things on there that say, I like my dog! I like Dalmatians
Eric:
Sure.
Kenrick:
You know? I love my husband! I love my wife! You know,

Authority sucks!
Eric:
Thats right.
Kenrick:
Question all authority! They can resist their way right into compliance,
making a public statement about what it is they think.
Eric:
Right, exactly.
45
Kenrick:
Thats so brilliant!
Eric:
And, thats an example of using resistance to create change.

But, the secret is, youve got to be able to listen to the resistance and then,
figure out how youre going to deal with it.
Kenrick:
You know what Im hearing you say? Just correct me if Im wrong, but
what Im hearing you say is, Dont be afraid of resistance.
Eric:
Oh, exactly.
Kenrick:
Listen to it, like it, learn to love it, because its sort of like the doorway
into the sale or to the persuasion situation. Theyve identified the door.
You just have to go unlock it and turn the handle.
Eric:
Kenrick, exactly. I couldnt have said it better. You know, probably the
first response we have to resistance, is to try to overwhelm it and beat it
down. And, that just never works. It just never works. You cant
counter-argue someone elses resistance. It just makes them more
resistant. So, youve got to listen to it and say, OK, what can I do to
answer it, remove it, or to work with it to make it effective for me, like,
make it part of the change process?
Kenrick:
You know what Id love to do with you, sometime, is I would love to sit
down and write out 20, 30, 40, you know, situations where I have
identified resistance in the different kinds of people that work with me,
and just have you go through one by one and say, OK, well, with this
kind of resistance, lets do this, and with this kind You know what?
Maybe, well figure out a way to do that together, someday.
Eric:
Great, Id love to.
Kenrick:
Thatd be great. You know, it is so kind of you to have taken your time. I
dont know that people understand quite the level of person that were
dealing with here, but each of the people on these calls are just monster
big. And, here, youve taken your time out of your busy day. Youre on
the East Coast, East Coast time, and Im grateful, Dr. Knowles, for all that
youve done for us here tonight, and all that youve gone over. Is there
anything youd like to leave us with, by way of ending here tonight?
Eric:
I think just where weve ended it, is just perfect. You need toI think for
most changes, the resistance is the key. Youve got to hear it and youve
got to deal with it. And, you dont deal with it by overwhelming it. You
deal with it by working with it effectively. You can side step it, you can
even turn it to your advantage.
46
Kenrick:
Well, you know, Im going to come up with a whole bunch of strategies.

Well sit down and talk sometime soon, and Ill come up with a whole
bunch of these because I tell you what, I think the world would love to
hear strategy after strategy where were identifying the resistance and
then, reframing and maneuvering it to our advantage. I just think the
concept of it is incredible. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your
time tonight! And, if you dont mind hanging out just a little bit, well
have some questions and well go from there.
Eric:
I will.
Eric Knowles PhD: http://www.omegachange.com
Kenrick:
And, well get ready to work with Dave Lakhani now. Dave, are you
there, as well?
Dave Lakhani:
Im here, Kenrick.
Kenrick:
Wonderful! Were just blasting right along tonight and needing about
double the time weve got, arent we? Im cutting every single person
short and I feel so bad but you know, Im so excited that youre here with
us. Let me just tell everyone thats on the call a little bit about you. Dave
Lakhani is the author of the best-selling book, Persuasion, The Art Of
Getting What You Want, and an in demand speaker on the topic of
persuasion. Daves company, Bold Approach, Inc., was nominated as one
of the Fast Company Magazines Fast 50 Companies. Bold Approach
applies the principles of human influence to advertising, marketing, sales
and public relations for companies who want to achieve rapid consumer
acceptance of their message in the market.
Dave has done a lot of training, trained thousands of salespeople and
business owners in the applications of persuasion. The thing I like about
Dave, is hes a really down to earth guy. And, what I came to find out,
and in fact, Im going to share a little bit of a story with our listeners,
Dave. When I was talking with Dave, and Dave and I have been talking
back and forth now over the period of a few months, and I approached
Dave for this call and we were talking along, and I said, Dave, Im going
to do this call, and Im rounding up the best of the best and I want you to
be on the call. I think the people would just really benefit.
And, I said, And, Dave, heres the premise of the call. If you had a gun
held to your head and you had to persuade your way out of the situation,
what would be the number one techniques youd use? And, I was floored
to hear you say, Well, Kenrick, Ive been exactly there. I had a gun put
47
to my head, a sawed off shotgun. And, I persuaded my way out. You

know what? That is so bloody compelling to me, Dave, can we start there,
if its not too painful for you?
Dave:
No, absolutely, we can, Kenrick. Its very true, I was an undercover

Narcotics Officer for the Federal Government and I also, worked on
Clandestine Labs and SWAT Teams in Latin America during the Reagan
Administration. And during the time that I was undercover, a person
actually found a picture of me in uniform, and thank goodness, he could
not read the nametag that was on my uniform. But, it had my badge and
everything else, it was a perfect picture of me, slightly cleaner cut than I
was at the time that they knew me, but certainly, you could tell that it was
me. And, I was in uniform, and this person found this picture and he had
already sold me a tremendous amount of cocaine and heroin.
It was not uncommon for us to meet or for me to see him coming. And so,
I saw him walking up to my car. He was dressed like he would normally
be dressed. He walked up to the car, I rolled down the window, and as I
turned around to say something to him, he pulled a sawed off shotgun out
and stuck it at my head and said, Im going to kill you. I know that youd
put me in jail probably for the rest of my life; or at least a very long time.
I know youre a cop, and I have every intention of pulling the trigger.
Now, there are two things that I knew instantly at that point. Number one,
that this person was at some level not committed to killing me, or he
would have just done it. And number two, that he was also very
committed to killing me; he was just looking for a reason to do it.
Kenrick:
Right.
Dave:
And so, I had to make a decision right at that point, and everything I knew
about persuasion up to that point and even things I didnt know about
persuasion that I learned later, came to bear over the next slightly over an
hour conversation that we had, as this person stood there and we began to
talk. So instantly, I had to develop rapport with this person. I had to
question his motives. I had to better understand. I had to make a lot of
decisions at that point, too. Do I continue to talk to this person, or do I try
and do something more drastic or desperate to try and save my life? The
lesser of two evils is you know, you die anyway, and so do you die trying,
or do you die sitting there.
It was one of those things where I had to instantly start doing this. And so,
the moment he engaged me, and the moment he gave me just a slight
opening, a compelling opening that said, I can continue to talk to this
person, I took it! The very first thing is that I took the picture from him
and I looked at it and I said, Oh, my God! This is so uncanny! This
48
looks exactly like me! And, guess what? He went, What? What do you
mean? Of course, it looks like you! It is you! And, I said, No, its not,
but I dont blame you. I mean, I could see exactly why you would think
this is me.
And then, from there we continued to have this conversation. And we
went through a whole range of emotions. At that point, I had already
studied NLP pretty significantly, and I took him through a number of
different processes that really broke down his emotions; that got him
emotionally involved in whether or not he really wanted to make this
decision because he wasnt just making a decision about whether or not he
was going to prison for drugs. At that point, if what he believed were true,
and I really were a police officer then, he was now making a decision to
probably have the death penalty applied in the state we were in if he
killed a police officer.
So we continued to have this conversation, I continued to apply persuasion
technique after persuasion technique and I finally created enough
emotional change and believability, that he put the gun down and said,
You know, I knew it wasnt you, but dont you agree, that pictures
uncanny?
Kenrick:
Wow!
Dave:
And the answer of course is, Yes, I do believe its uncanny!
Kenrick:
Ill tell you something certainly, I think you have some of the more
colorful experiences here, and youve put your skills to the real world,
hard-core test. And thats only one interesting thing. I skipped right past
what kind of got you into all of this, to begin with. You were raised in a
cult, werent you?
Dave:
Thats right, from the time I was about 7-years-old, until I was in my late
teens, I was raised in a cult. And thats exactly what got me to study
persuasion, in the first place. I had to understand how it was that my mom
came to this decision to raise her three sons in this very restrictive cult that
she fully believed in, fully supported. I had to understand how someone
as smart as my mom could make that decision and then ultimately, follow
through with it for so many years.
If you dont mind, Ill tell people exactly what I discovered as a result of
this study. This study started when I was in my late teens, when I finally,
had to leave home. Let me just tell you a little bit about this cult before I
tell you what I found out.
Kenrick:
Yeah.
49
Dave:
This cult, it still exists today. Theyre called Bible Believers, or

Branhamites, is the name of the cult, and Im going to tell you how you
can find out more about them, so that you can see that what Im telling
you is very truthful. But, what Ive got to tell you ahead of time, is listen,
do not join these guys. Im only giving this as a point of illustration. This
is not something that Im encouraging you to do. Theyll seem very
innocuous to you.
Kenrick:
Wait a minute, Dave, wait a minute, so youre going to give what away?
Dave:
Ill give away, well, Ill give away the website so they can check it out, if
they want.
Kenrick:
Let me just also then suggest, if thats what youre going to do, that
cultsits nave to believe that we are sophisticated that we can overcome
the power of what a cult can do, a cult whos been around for many, many
years and is perhaps, very sophisticated.
Dave:
Correct.
Kenrick:
Maybe I should take this moment to say, The views expressed by our
authors of this call are not, necessarily, those of Influence Marketing!
Im just kidding. In other words, be careful. I think DaveI think youre
saying something very important. Be careful and if you want to give the
URL where these people are found so people can kind of see what youre
saying, go ahead.
Dave:
Right, its at BibleBelievers.org. Now again, dont join this cult. Dont
even get information from them, but justyou can look at it and see what
they believe. They believe, for example, that there was an in time prophet,
who happened to die in 1965, who was the literal resurrection of the
Prophet Elijah from the Bible; resurrected and then born into the end
times, as they called it. They believe that children shouldnt have an
education past about the 6th grade, men or women, that women couldnt
cut their hair, couldnt wear make-up. Youre not allowed to watch
television, youre not allowed to listen to the radio. You are required to
give a large percentage of your money back to the church. And, the list
goes on and on and on and on.
They believe in corporal punishment for children and wives, and any
number of other things that were highly, highly destructive. My mom was
not allowed to remarry because shed been divorced. And according to
their standards, youre truly never divorced, if youre ever married. So
you would then be not only an adulterer, but many other things too, if you
50
lived in a pleural marriage because you were never really divorced, even
though the law said you were.
As all of these things happened, I was very fortunate. I had a short
upbringing of five or six years before we joined this cult, where I had
some sense of normalcy in what was right or wrong and those things in
those very formative years, which gave me pause to question things as
opposed to being born into this organization, where I wouldnt have
questioned and where it would have been a real normalcy for me. And,
my mom was very well educated which by the way, is a common trait
amongst many cult members; theyre very well educated and very
intelligent people because they can draw conclusions very easily and they
can find a gray area and understand how some things may be true, even
though they would appear to be untrue.
Kenrick:
Right.
Dave:
My mom was very committed to education but she was also, committed to
this cult. So rather than do anything, she just said, Look, Dave, the
decision is yours and you can do whatever you want, but you accept the
responsibility for it. And so I did and ultimately, I realized I had to leave
my home because if I didnt, it would have caused just too much trouble
and physical kinds of problems for my brothers and my mother. I
ultimately, left home and I immediately went to the Carnegie Public
Library. And, if anybody knows what Carnegie Libraries are, the Andrew
Carnegie Foundation built them all over the United States in the 30s, 40s
and 50s. Giant old flagstone buildings with ivy all over them, they look
like a misplaced building from an old Ivy League college campus.
I started studying everything I could about salesmanship and persuasion
and influence and manipulation, to understand exactly why my mom made
this decision and how she continued to be buying into this thing. What I
discovered is this Kenrick, and this is very important, and I hope
everybody on the call will write this down; That everybody whether
theyre looking at a cult, a religion, or a car, or a new home, or a stock
option, is looking for the same thing. Do you know what it is? Ill tell
you. Its salvation. Theyre looking for salvation from something.
Theyre looking to save their soul from hell, in the case of religion. Or,
theyre looking for a car that they know will be reliable because theyre
looking for the salvation of what else could be.
Or in the case that Kevin was talking about, he said, You show them the
positive, you show them the negative. Well, what people are really doing,
is theyre looking for this literal salvation from the problems that they
have. And, theyre looking for it from someone who they can trust and
believe in. Ultimately, my mom passed away in 1999, and if anybodys
ever had anyone close to them pass away, you know that the last
51
conversations that you have, you replay a thousand times in your mind.
We had no idea she was going to die. Shed gone in for a very simple
process, a very simple procedure and she died of a pulmonary embolism.
But, we had this conversation and she told me, she said, Dave, even
though its been over 10 years since Ive been involved in this cult she
finally did leave, she said, I still wonder if I made the worst decision of
my life. I still wonder if I made the right decision to leave.
Kenrick:
Wow.
Dave:
You know whatafter mom died, I was thinking about this conversation.
We talk about inoculating against buyers remorse and rejection and all
those things. But, if they decide to do that, if they decide to leave the
relationship with it, shouldnt they constantly and forever worry that they
made the very worst decision they ever could have possibly made? And,
thats why you want them to worry about that; Because, theyll come
back.
Kenrick:
So, youre saying, your mother worried that she left this cult and 10 years
later, she was still worried that she made the right decision.
Dave:
Right.
Kenrick:
And, what youre saying is, is it possible that if our clients leave us, that
weve installed, through some of your strategies, that they may have made
the worst decision of their entire life?
Dave:
And not only that, theyll compare every other decision in a related
category to the decision theyve already made with you. And, because
were creatures of habit, theyll try and find reasons why their original
belief was right and the new one is wrong.
Kenrick:
Wow! Well, Dave, you got this cult stuff figured out dont you?
Dave:
Well yeah, I absolutely do. Ive always said this, Kenrick, and Im not
doing it but Ive always said, If I ever wanted to be the richest guy in the
world, Id just start my own cult.
Kenrick:
By the way, you know, thats what I used to say?
Dave:
Its true!
Kenrick:
I think thats why I like you so much. I understand the kind of

thingsits funny, you and Kevin and I will have to get together and chat
together, sometime, because Kevin also, has quite a background in
52
religion and its very interesting. But I want to make sure, just because
I dont want you to come across different than you are, youre not like
hating all organized religion?
Dave:
Oh, absolutely not, no.
Kenrick:
OK.
Dave:
Because, I believe that faith and all those things play a role in peoples
lives.
Kenrick:
Right. So, its just that
Dave:
Im diametrically opposed to people using religion to fully control other

people and ultimately, use it against them for an improper goal.
Kenrick:
You knowwell, actually, Im not going to jump too far ahead of myself.
Let me just pose you the question, OK?
Dave:
Sure.
Kenrick:
So, if youve got a gun to your head right now, and not to bring up a bad
memory, but if youwell, for you, if you had your back against the wall
and you had to persuade, would you share with me, what one big
strategyI know youve got a bunch, but give me one hard-hitting
strategy that you would apply to make life better.
Dave:
Im going to give you a bigger concept strategy and then, Im going to

break it down.
Kenrick:
OK.
Dave:
But ultimately, the first thing I would do, I have just demonstrated the
strategy to you in the last two stories that I told. Storytelling is one of the
most compelling persuasion strategies you can use. Were very attuned to
learning from and listening to stories. Stories are our oldest form or oral
communication is our oldest form of passing on oral traditions or anything
else. So, If you think about it, probably one of your earliest memories as a
child, is sitting on your grandmother or grandfathers knee or your mom or
dads knee, having them read a book to you or tell you a story about you
know, When I was a little boy or, When I was a little girl, this
happened.
We understand how to listen to stories. They come in a format that we
easily accept because we know how to listen to them. We know which
pieces have to exist. We know how to look for a moral to the story. And,
53
they serve the purpose of persuasion, which, in my definition, the only

purpose of persuasion is to help another person come to their own best
conclusion, which happens to coincide with mine.
Kenrick:
Right.
Dave:
And so when we tell people stories and we tell them from a position of
authority, which is also a very strong cult tactic, having a charismatic,
strong leader whos a guru; but its a very powerful persuasive tactics as
well, setting yourself up as an expert. And when you tell these stories as
an expert people immediately understand them and give them credibility
and validity, as long as youre truthful, believable and fairly transparent in
what youre saying, so the people can validate what youre talking about.
And then of course, the other piece of that then, is simply having a very
powerful persuasive persona. So, those three elements combined, make
up a strategy that I would use. If you tell a powerful story, from a position
of authority in your persuasive persona then, youll be able to easily
persuade anyone, as long as youre being ethical and have their best
interest at heart.
Kenrick:
I was going to tell you, You know, as we project to a time in the future,
lets say just a few months out and you and I sit down and we say, You
know, how could we show people how to create their own cult? Of
course, we know good and well, it could be negative it could be
dastardly even; but the benefits to knowing how to protect against
something like that absolutely, outweigh the negatives of coming up with
it. I think we should just figure out a way to do that.
Dave:
I dont disagree and we can definitely do that. Ill give you another great
example of that, Kenrick.
Kenrick:
Would you?
Dave:
Somebody actually wrote me a really good question the other day that I
talked about on my blog. They asked the question, Is torture a persuasion
technique? And, Im not going to get into that here because its too
detailed of an explanation, but I went into it on the blog and ultimately,
you have to understand the negative, to fully apply the positive.
Kenrick:
Right.
Dave:
Now, I cant resist going back in time just a little bit in this call because in
just a moment people are going toyoure going to be blown away by
what Joel has to say. But, because everybodys talked about frames, I
have to talk about a frame, too.
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Kenrick:
OK.
Dave:
And so, heres the thing. This is a physical technique called, framing,
that everyone here can use. If you want to draw more attention to yourself
in a selling situation, if you want to be perceived with more authority and
if you want to set yourself apart from the crowd, theres two ways to do
this. Number one is, physically frame yourself in a doorway. Simply
pause in a doorway and put a frame around yourself, a physical frame,
because what frames do (Mark talked about this) is they create this
essence around a picture, but they also provide a focal point so that you
know where to look. So, when people are glancing around a room and
people are looking, they look for frames. And physically, framing
yourself in a doorway, makes you more noticeable and more memorable.
Or you can also, frame yourself between a couple of very powerful,
recognizable people. They dont even have to say a word or even know
you. You simply stand between the two of them and people automatically
look at you, frame you between those two people and make the decision
about who you are; as being somewhat of importance that they should
probably know or find out who you are, in order to make you instantly,
more persuasive, which is also another form of psychological frame that
everyone talks about as well.
Kenrick:
Wonderful. I love those techniques. Ive never heard framing yourself in a

doorway, but I really like that. One of the things that I saw thats similar,
sometime backwell, a long time ago, is I was looking at one of Tony
Robbins books and I see a chapter head and it starts with a quote from
Abraham Lincoln, or whatever. And then, I see one from some other big
famous guy. And then, I see one from some other big famous guy. Ooh!
Whats the next one? From Tony Robbins.
Dave:
Sure.
Kenrick:
Interesting and then I see another one from a famous guy and then another
one, and then, Woo! Theres another one from Tony Robbins, you know?
I thought, oh thats slick.
Dave:
And whatever you do, dont notice that about my book!
Kenrick:
OK. Actually, your book rocks, man! Im really excited about your book.
You know, its so funny how people can find ways of framing, when they
start thinking about it. And, put yourself in a doorway; put yourself
between two other powerful people, thats fantastic! And, of course,
testimonials frame us too, dont they?
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Dave:
They absolutely do. I mean, how much better could I be framed than
having Dr. Knowles before me, and Joel Bauer after me?
Kenrick:
Exactly!
Dave:
I framed myself perfectly!
Kenrick:
Yes.
Dave:
Well, You framed me, but ultimately it worked out great in my favor, and
then, I also had Mark in front of that, and Kevin in front of that. I couldnt
have been surrounded by a better frame.
Kenrick:
You know, Ill tell you thats why Im actually, excited and humbled to
even get to do all this. Its just amazing! Listen, lets go withI want to
repeat what youve said. I want to make sure that were getting your main
tactics. Storytelling
Dave:
Storytelling, right.
Kenrick:
and, whats the second one?
Dave:
Telling your story from a powerful, persuasive persona. So, your persona
is who you are. If I can just take a second, Ill explain persona a little bit
better. Kenrick, when you speak on stage, or when youre on this
teleconference, are you exactly the same person you are at home, when
youre with your wife and children?
Kenrick:
No.
Dave:
Of course not, because you have a certain persona that you put on. Its
like a suit of clothes that you wear when you do one of these. That suit of
clothes contains your professionalism, your professional demeanor, your
professional identity, right?
Kenrick:
Right.
Dave:
And, it makes it much easier for you when you step into this physical
persona, to be all of the things you need to be, to be the powerful
communicator you are and the persuasion expert that you are. But then,
when you go home, you step out of that because you have a different
persona, right? Youre dad, youre the husband, youre whoever you are
when you get home.
Kenrick:
Thats right.
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Dave:
And so, you do that as effectively as you can, as well. So, what we want
people to do is by learning these techniques, is to integrate them into a
physical persona, which also includes the way you dress, the way you talk,
the way you look, all of these kinds of things that allow you to be
memorable and perceived in a way that is persuasive. And so, you tell
your story from your persuasive persona, you slip into your persona, you
tell your story. And, you do it from the position of an expert because
everyone wants to buy something from an expert.
Let me give you a great example. If you go to New York City, and you
decide that you want to buy a home. And, you walk into a real estate
office and the broker says, You know, listen, Im going to have you meet
Sally Smith. Shes a realtor. I want you to meet her at 3:00 at the
Starbucks on the corner of Broadway and 57th. And, you say, OK,
great, and those streets may or may not intersect, I dont know. Im not
perfect with my Manhattan geography. But they say, I want you to meet
right there. And so, you say, OK, Ill meet them there.
As youre walking out, you run into Donald Trump. And Donald Trump
says, What are you doing? And you go, Well, Im looking for a house.
I just moved here, Im going to be living here for a year, and I just was
looking for a place to live. And Donald Trump says, Hey, listen, heres
the thing, youve got to talk to this real estate agent. His name is Sam
Brown. Now, Im going to call Sam, and Im going to tell him to meet
you at 3:00 at the corner of Broadway and 56th. Who are you going to
meet? Are you going to meet the realtor that you just set it up with, or are
you going to meet the realtor that Donald Trump set you up with?
Kenrick:
Exactly.
Dave:
Because, Donald Trump is the expert authority, right? Nobody knows

more about real estate in Manhattan than Donald Trump, arguably.
Kenrick:
Right.
Dave:
So, youre going to listen to that expert. So, you tell your story from an
expert status. Donald Trump, his story precedes him, so you know who he
is, you know his story already. And he speaks from a position of
authority, and you automatically build a story around what hes telling
you, so that you can easily take the action that he wants you to take, which
is see his realtor.
Kenrick:
That makes really good sense. You know, its framing, framing, framing,
isnt it?
Dave:
Absolutely, framing is a big, big key tonight, isnt it?
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Kenrick:
Yes, it is. In fact, you know, it would be fun, since that seems to be such a
big one, to maybe take that on as a topic down the road, and just explore
framing. Dave, I know you and I are going to do a lot more things and I
am so excited to have you here. And, were stretching everybody thin I
think, tonight. But what I want to do, I want to get to Joel, and so lets
wrap this up for tonight. Lets just make sure that we have what youve
said thoroughly here. So, what youre saying is, storytelling, from a
strong persona
Dave:
Right.
Kenrick:
And? The third one?
Dave:
And telling your story, as an expert. Make sure youre an expert and make
sure that people understand youre an expert. I could go into exactly how
to develop your expert status but, clearly we dont have time for that
tonight. But, developing your expert status, stepping into your persona
each time youre ready to persuade, and then telling a powerful story that
leads people to their own best conclusion. Let them determine the moral
of the story, which is the conclusion you want them to draw.
Kenrick:
And you know, I like this so much because who are you going to buy
from? Somebody whos strong and an expert and really great at what they
do? Or are we going to buy from the guy whos not too sure and
desperately needs the money and on and on, you know? Its a real clear
choice, and this is a great way to make that happen. So Dave, this is
wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. Your life history and
experiences are phenomenal and again, its very interesting, the different
kinds of things that I think all of us here tonight, share in common. And,
these are great strategies. So, I really appreciate your taking your time to
tell us about them.
Dave:
My pleasure, Kenrick, and I cant wait to put the phone on mute, so you
can talk to Joel. This guy is unbelievable to listen to!
Dave Lakhani: http://www.powertopersuade.com
Kenrick:
He really is! Thanks so much, Dave. Well talk really soon and in just a
moment, were going to bring Joel on. I want to, first of all, thank
everybody on the line for being with us here. Were going to talk to Joel,
and then were going to do some questions and answers. So hang with us,
and for all of the Masters of Persuasion that are on the line, wow! You
guys are troopers! Youre really hanging in there, and I appreciate it, I
really do! Remember to go to the blog, www.kenricks-breakthroughs-in-
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persuasion.com/blog and post your questions to us. And, you can even do
that after the call is over, and well see what we cant do to get them to
different people. Cant promise you anything, but well do our best
tonight to get through what we can.
Kenrick:
Joel are you with me?
Joel Bauer:
Im with you, can you hear me?
Kenrick:
I sure can and man, thank you for hanging in there for this.
Joel:
Hang in there? Im having a blast!
Kenrick:
Isnt this fun?
Joel:
I was particularly he blew me away just now. I believe, I didnt get to

speak with him ask him right know whether if he was just at an event
with me and I think I gave him a hug in the hallway. He was just very
kind to me. I believe its the same gentleman that was in Phoenix.
Dave:
Yep, thats correct, and weve actually, talked on the phone quite a few
times, but weve never had 10 minutes to talk in person. So hopefully,
thatll happen soon.
Joel:
Dave Im sorry, I just saw you back there. I know you saw me work. I
didnt get to see you work, but you look pretty dynamic there, so
Kenrick:
Thats fantastic. I think I said this is amazing to have such a group of

people like this together. And Joel, give me a second to let everybody
know who you are because Ill tell you what, Im so excited youre here.
And to say I saved the best for the last, isnt right. Everybody on this call
is absolutely mind-blowing, but you know, you do some things that are
just downright magical. And so let me just mention to everyone, Joel is
the author of the book, How To Persuade People Who Dont Want To Be
Persuaded. I love the book. I digested the thing. Its amazing.
Joel is the ultimate infotainer and trade show magician. And thats not an
understatement. Hes called the Chairman of the Board in Trade Show
Rain-Making by the Wall Street Journal. Hes an expert in persuasion,
crowd building and mass obedience yes, mass obedience. How do you
like those words, huh? And weve got him here with us and now, were
going to pick your brain.
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Joel:
It sounds like a load of crap to me, if you ask me, the whole introduction.
I wouldnt buy into it at all, but
Kenrick:
There you go, well just bring up the negative. You know there really
might not be it all there but wow, you know, I could sure show you some
great stuff!
You know when Im doing a presentation or training a group, whether its
corporate or individuals and they introduce me, I dont walk out. And Id
like to reveal this technique right now because its awfully powerful and
yet, it could save your life, if you really want to set up the same
questioning. But how do you win over an audience before you open your
mouth? You do it using something called, social proof, and Im
absolutely assured that every single speaker before me, every
communicator knows these techniques. Theyre very, very clear. And the
most effective in all of persuasion, in my opinion, has nothing to do with
what we do, but the words and actions of others. People live vicariously
through the words and actions of others.
Joel:
And so, when I walk out on the stage I show a video clip, which is in my
laptop, or on the Memory Stick, of 15 or 18 television shows which only
have a two-second introduction from you know, Bill Gates or Larry
Ellison, CNBC Power Lunch, Bloomberg News, Dick Cavett, whoevers
on there introducing me. I just took cuts from Ive done hundreds of
television shows and radio interviews and newspaper and magazines and
so, I take the media because people automatically assume that you are, as
per Daves last few comments, an instant expert if in fact, youve written a
book and youve been positioned in all of those magazines, newspapers
and television shows. Television being the most powerful medium of all,
in terms of the media perception in front of an audience.
You used the Wall Street Journal just now, from an auditory aspect in
introducing me. That has significant impact.
Kenrick:
Yes, absolutely.
Joel:
And so, when I walk out in front of the audience I go, What a load of
crap! Same thing I did right here. And, its a pattern interruption in the
most precise way, I mean, its absolute they dont expect ithere, the
guys been elevated, here, the lights have come down. Here, theyre
entering into Joel Bauer, Joel Bauer, Joel Bauer, welcome Joel Bauer!
And youve got all these celebrities and all these people theyve grown up
around, who have nurtured their thoughts and manipulated their
perspectives and perceptions or at least, suspended this belief. And here I
am, walking up in the back of the room, not the front of the room. You
always want to do exactly what they dont expect, always. I live in a
pattern interruption, otherwise, I would be completely ineffective.
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And if I was not effective as a persuader, I would not be sitting on this call
because I would not be hired by the companies and individuals who have
hired me for going on three decades. I would not be paid. I would be
doing something else. I would have compromised my life in some other
way and done something I didnt love. I happen to love what I do. I hate
to reduce it to the magic industry or mentalism or escapology or lockpicking or any of the other interesting things that I studied and developed
expertise with over the years, but I will tell you one thing, if you really
want to know what persuasion is all about, its suspension of disbelief, in
my opinion. That is what its about, suspension of disbelief because
everyone at the initial point of contact, at our first point of contact, is not a
believer.
What I do with the introduction of social proof, other people talking about
me, is suddenly Im in rapport. Suddenly, I have all this social proof
working for me, all these people introducing me, the automatic assumption
that I must be an expert. There must be something great about me. And
then, what do I say? What a load of crap! So, Ladies and gentlemen,
were not here to talk about me, were here to help you, specifically, in the
next one hour and five minutes. Let me reveal that first, you be very
precise, you set up expectation. This is what we will achieve, this is what
you will own. You will be able to achieve the following free results. Cut
right to the chase.
Now, Ive spent my life with metaphor and storytelling and its all
wonderful but you know, Ive gotten much clearer now in whats actually
bringing insee, the bottom line is when Im done with what it is I do and
I hate to take all these conversations and have you thinking about the last
guy, Joel Bauer, because I have the luxury and Im in good luck here. I
know you didnt know who to put where. I know you were using your gut
and your instincts and you were trying to create the right blend Kenrick,
am I right?
Kenrick:
Right, absolutely.
Joel:
There is no best guy.
Kenrick:
No.
Joel:
I mean, there are guys on this call that I would kill, Id give them $5,000
an hour to sit with them, and I may be doing that in the future because
there are things that hit buttons. They can resolve solutions in my life
with dynamics in persuasion that work but I dont understand necessarily,
why they work. I dont think theres anyone on this call that wouldnt
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agree that there are things we do intuitively and effectively, and we cant
explain why. We have theories.
And so a lot of what Im going to expose to you right now, if I may share
these ideas, and Im put in this position of so-called expert, and Im put in
this position to help others and direct them. Well, Im going to give them
what works. Im not going to give them theory or academics. Im not an
academic. You know, I barely finished high school. I went to a few
courses in college later on. I made 40 grand when I was 7-1/2 years old
doing birthday party magic shows. And when you make 40 grand, do you
know what your mother says? Nothing. Keep doing it, baby! Pay for
your own braces. Take yourself to the doctor or the dentist, buy your own
furniture. Not a dime of allowance. I raised myself, literally. My
mother worked in television. My father wasnt there.
My fathers back in my life at age 41. He called me one day at 41-yearsold Im 45 three days ago he called me and said, I love you. And, I
said, Oh, you must have got divorced! And he said, Howd you know
that? And I said, Well, theres been no contact up to this point, so
something dramatic has happened in your life. Im assuming a divorce.
My father now, literally, we just built him a house behind our home and he
lives with me. And everything is possible.
I hate to turn this into a motivational call, but ladies and gentlemen, if
youre listening out there, youre hearing some of the most dynamic men.
Im sure that if Kenrick had the opportunity and had more time, there are
dynamic women out there who are expert communicators and persuaders,
who would have been included on this call. I know that Kenrick called a
great many people and those who said Yes in the top, those are the ones
included here.
Kenrick:
Actually, I have to tell you. I called exactly you folks.
Joel:
OK.
Kenrick:
Every single one of you said Yes, and I had more I wanted to call. I
called you guys first. Every one of you without question said, Yes, and
I knew that exactly where were at right now, is going to be where were
at, which is me, dreaming and wishing that I had another four or five hours
to sit on this call and do it. But, you know what? Youre absolutely right
when you say that there are other great people. But listen, youre high on
my list, Joel.
Joel:
Yeah, I have to let women out there know that there are women who are
extraordinary. In my opinion, certainly superior to me. Ive met some
master communicators. They come in all forms, men and women. And
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the women out there, who may be hearing these techniques and hearing
them from only male voices, I want them to know that these are universal
techniques that can be applied and manifest, not only dramatic wealth, but
dramatic, tremendous relationships. They can manifest breakthroughs in
your communication and your ability to relate to your children and retire
at an early age and send your children to the finest private schools and live
life on your own terms without compromise.
The power of persuasion gives you the freedom in your life to make
elegant choices. Its about volition. Its about giving yourself permission
to make choices and getting others to enable you to do what it is you
manifest in your mind. And it works. By the way, kick me somewhere
because I tend to want to just go, and all of us are well-equipped on this
call to take someone through a three, four, five day complete persuasion
course because I know we all train, and we all, literally, transform the
moment for people and get them to the suspension of disbelief.
Kenrick:
Let me transform this for everybody by asking you a question because I

just think youre going to have an answer for me. So, heres your
question, Joel, lets say a person has nothing, I mean, lets go to the rock
bottom, they got nothing. They need to create thousands of dollars right
now. Is it possible, in your model of the world? And, if so, how? And, is
it even possible without selling anything?
Joel:
Yeah, Im glad were going there because thats what Im all about. Im
not about theory, Im not about academics, Im not about research. I am
about testing. I am about trial and error, but in a real world. Someone has
nothing, then, lets just go back to my life and we had a second baby on
the way and I was done in the cruising industry and had gone through
tremendous savings. And quite frankly, when you have a child, your
whole life changes. Its not about you anymore. Its about your family,
its about your children.
Most people listening in tonight may not really think about this, but
theyre not listening for themselves. Theyre listening because there are
people who depend on them, who need them. And, whether its a positive
sense of needing them or whether it comes in a negative form, there are
people who depend on you. Youre listening in to hone your skills and
enable you to get what it is you want. What it is ultimately, you deserve, if
you want to take it philosophic. I believe you get what it is you want, if
youre specific. And weve talked about that tonight.
Here is what you do, because this is what I did. I was either going to
compromise my life and go and do something, go along to get along, do
something I didnt want to do, go to work for someone else and leave a
business that I had always run on my own. The business of entertainment,
infotainment, providing solutions that were entertainment-based for people
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to create a great emotional environment, which is what an entertainer

does. He goes somewhere and he changes the emotional dynamic and he
creates a memorable experience so that people remember the event. They
dont remember the chicken, they dont remember the dancing or the
music. They remember if they had an emotional connection to the people
there and it had a profound impact on their life.
And so, thats what I did. But here I was, second kid on the way, needing
to make immediate money. An earthquake, ( this is California, you know,
Ive been here for almost three decades now) and a friend of mine calls
me, an attorney, head of the EPA, Environmental Protection Agency,
whos now died. And he says, Theres a tradeshow here at Muscone
Center in San Franciso, its a car show. Big show, 10-day show, its
Thanksgiving. Im climbing in bed with my wife and Im mentioning I
just got this call, and I can assure you, Id been on the road. Id been
performing, Id done a bunch of shows and I was exhausted.
And I know that other people listening in, know exactly what that feels
like, where you just want to get under the covers and be in a good place
and spend time with the person you love and embrace your child. And,
you dont want to go work. And yet, at the same time, Ive got these
awesome pressures upon me and Ive got to make a decision. Ive got to
do something thats going to take care of my children and leverage my
wife and make me feel good as a male and as a nurturer and create a solid
environment there.
Im going, Man, I really dont want to go to that tradeshow, but Im
saying to myself, all the other forms of marketing and persuasion, they
dont work, the business cards, the letterhead, the graphics, the brochures,
the phone calls, the setting up of appointments, the being abused, the give
the free show and the free sample and the free demo. I know that people
listening in right now can relate to this, because its so true. We are so
often abused, no matter how effective we are. We go out there and we
give from the heart and many times, theyre just picking our brain. And, I
didnt like that and it was not what I call direct marketing. And, direct
marketing is where you get an immediate right there, right now, yes or no,
sign on the dotted line, check is in the mail following. It comes in the mail
and money goes in the bank and youre set.
Let me reveal the solution right here. This is huge. And, Im not trying to
tell a story. This is not something that I reveal on stage. This is not a
story Ive told 100 times. Maybe five, no more. And so, I went to
Moscone Center. I defined the rules of my game right there and my rules
were the following. I will never do marketing that costs over $200.00. I
will never drive over eight hours. I will never go beyond a tank of gas in
my car, or an airplane thats over an hour and five minutes away. So I had
a certain budget parameter.
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I will never go somewhere that when I fail, I cannot return to my home the
same day or the same night, or the following morning, at the very latest.
Im not going to spend more than a 24-hour period. If I fail, I come back.
So, I set myself up with very high expectations. I flew to Moscone Center
and I walked around. And by the way, I dressed well. Number one rule.
Let me just give you the rules right now because these are the rules of
persuasion, people, if youre listening in on this call. These are my rules,
these are rules that are going to absolutely convert to higher income
tomorrow morning. Theres no guesswork here. Theres no theory.
Theres nothing you need to study. You study everything else, you read,
you assimilate, you forget it all and you allow it to intuitively, surface.
Number one rule is wrap your package. And so, I wrapped my package.
Youve got four seconds. You are judged in the first four seconds. You
come out in a torn T-shirt and jeans, you are forgotten. You want upgrades
of first class, you want to stay in hotel suites for $78.00 when thats the
rack rate, and it could have been $340.00, and the hotel suites $750.00. I
cant think of the last time I wasnt put in one, including the location I was
at with Dave just now. I was in a suite. It was in a $640.00 room thats
reserved for celebrities. I was spending $78.00 a night on that room.
I flew first class, even though I bought a coach ticket. How do you do
that? You wrap your package. Im telling you right now, Im going to
challenge you. While I reveal the truth of my life and what it is you do
where you need money immediately, I want you to write down these
techniques because time is limited, very limited. Theres so much we all
want to contribute and Kenrick would love to stay on line with you, I
know that, all night. Wed like to keep giving. But, there are limitations
here. And so, please, wrap that package, do it for 30 days. Youre going
to see an entirely new response.
That is correct, black frame. Here are the rules. Black frame, white inset.
Yellow tie, white tie, pink tie. Yellow, white or pink, yellow, white or
pink, white shirt, black suit. This goes the same for women. Black
structure. Around the neck, youre framing the hands, the face. You want
them to see your hands and face, not look at you sexually, not look at your
body. You want to focus on you. The communication dynamic is from
the face. Enough of the body language there.
Wrap the package, number one. I call it the Four, Four, Four. It takes
four seconds longer to wrap your package than to throw on anything on
the floor around you. Number two, its four degrees warmer when youre
wearing a blazer. And, number three, you get 4,000 percent greater
response.
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Who did I learn these things from? Was it from a book? Was it from the
television? No, it was from my grandfather, who was a tremendously
successful human being, tremendously successful on every level. And he
always said he didnt like people and you know what? I never saw a man
literally, harness more respect than my grandfather did, from every point
of contact. And, he proved to me that wrapping the package made your
life easier. So, Im telling you right now, forget about the income, the fact
that youll have an increase of income, 10% to 15% to 22% just by how
you present yourself, how you increase your perceived value.
And so, I went to Moscone Center dressed, decked out in a beautiful suit
and a beautiful tie. Donald Trump, you may not like the man, he was
mentioned, but he dresses well. Power tie, set, and no design, no
distraction. Frame the face, frame the hands. Put your hair together.
Gentlemen, if youre pasty white, put some Clinique bronzer on. Do
something, present your package as best as you can. Im not pretty, but I
put myself together.
Women will look at your shoes, men will look at your shoes, your
fingernails. Theyll look at your wristwatch, look at your face and eyes.
Theyll look at your butt. They will scan your body, but theyre going to
look at your shoes, first and foremost. Details make for perfection and
Leonardo Da Vinci said it, he meant something by it. The details, they
should be extraordinary. Put yourself together. You only get one shot.
And now, this might not sound like a procedure in persuasion, and
Kenrick, I hope youre not mad at me for just running rough shot here,
youll let me go, but I believe I can get a lot done here.
Kenrick:
Listen, man, this is what you do. How can I not be thrilled with that, man?
You are the consummate showman.
Joel:
This is the assimilation of what it is I teach during hours and hours, but Ill
tell you something, if they do it, take the 30-day challenge, wrap the
packagenumber two, were going to discuss the words that I use that
enabled me to suspend this belief and gain a $70,000 deal. And that was
in the first two months, alone. I walked out of there with a signed
contract. I failed for the first seven hours. I walked around doing demos.
Well you see, every company in the world goes to a tradeshow, every
single company. They all do it. If its a small company, they attend small
demonstrations at the local, the Pasadena Civic Center, the Civic
Auditorium, Los Angeles Convention Center, Javits Center, Moscone
Center, San Francisco.
Everyones got a Convention Center and guess what? You can get in and
you can pick up a badge. Just boldly, pick up a badge. Im not going to
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attack ethics on this call. If you cant afford to buy your way into a
convention, then pick up a badge and walk in because youre not there to
hurt anyone. Youre there to help the people that are there that are
suffering, and they are suffering. And Kenrick, Im going to make sure on
this call, that I send you links that will enable people to download my
book, five or six chapters out of the book for free. No charge, I dont care
about the money. I give all the money to prostate cancer and breast cancer
research anyway, because, quite frankly, when you write a book, youre an
instant expert. That was my only purpose in writing the book, to help
people and position myself as an expert, so I could broaden and bring the
message to more people. Theres no profit motivation. I hope youre not
upset my mentioning that, but its going to be free. Were going to make
things free.
Kenrick:
Great. Wonderful.
Joel:
Id also like people to come away with one of the greatest experiences
when they listen to your people and the way you put together a group
because we really all care, you selected us. And so, Convention Center,
the right words. Write down the right words, now, Wrap the package, is
number one. The second component is the right words. And, Im going to
build in everything for you. Im going to give you the embedded
commands, Im going to give you the linguistic technology, but Im not
going to explain how it works because you know what? Ultimately, it
doesnt matter how it works. It only matters that it works. And so, Im
going to give them a duplicatable formula, Im going to give them the
entre for the five star meal.
Everyone says, What do you do for a living? And, so few people can
address that revelation. They cannot give me an answer that pulls me,
emotionally, into the experience of what it is they do. And, Ill tell you
something, if I had all four callers, all four callers before me and I asked
them what they do, I do not believe that they would match the formula.
Im not going to say its better. Im going to say that my formula is
different and it has absolutely blown away some of the most powerful
communicators on the planet and I tripped on it through survival not
because Im brilliant because Im not brilliant. Im a simple man and I do
things through trial and error, limited education.
I was dyslexic until the age of seven. I saw upside down and backwards.
I was totally messed up with my motor skills. I failed first and second
grade. I was born with spinal meningitis. If you think youre listening to
a guy here who was dealt a good hand, youre listening to a guy here who
was told they told my mother and father Id be dead. I would be dead
within three weeks. Thats how severe it was. They left me in the
hospital for two and a half weeks, wouldnt let my mother return because I
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was going through so many tests and so many erratic procedures at that
time. They didnt know how to treat spinal meningitis. Well, guess what?
So what? This is what Ive become, and if you dont like me on this call, I
dont care if anyone likes me. I care that they apply the techniques and
they generate massive response.
Everyone has been very kind on this call. Theyve been candy-coating
and theyve been nice and its time to change the personality structure. I
want to leave them, I just want to get them to do something. Pattern
interrupt. I could get real nice right now, I could flip a switch. I could go
to a gentle place and a nurturing place and a guiding place. Its simple,
simple, simple contrast, nothing to it.
Everyone out there listening, you have the ability to assume 1,000
different personality spells, you have the ability to change who you are
from moment to moment because thats not changing who you are. Its
changing the way you are perceived. And so, if what youre doing isnt
working, you change what youre doing. Lets go back to the Convention
Center, Moscone Center. I pick up a badge, I walk in that show. I picked
up a badge with authority. Theyre calling names. Some guy was
smoking, some woman was playing in her purse.
My name was Susan Condai, it was an Asian name. I picked up a badge
with a female name on it. Shes going to get another one, shell ask for it.
I pinned it on, I walked in, I took it off. Once youre in the Convention
Hall, youre in. I walked from booth, to booth, to booth. And I walked up
to people and heres what I said this must be real embarrassing. I
looked for the biggest booth, I looked for the Vice President of Sales,
Marketing, V.P. of the company. Do you know, you find the most
powerful people in the world at conventions and tradeshows? The people
you could never with the gatekeeper you could never get to him.
Youd have to spend a fortune to figure out the dynamics or hang out in
their favorite restaurant and do tremendous research in social engineering.
Youll reach them on the tradeshow floor because theyre there, theyre
right there. The head of Sony is right there. The head of Tribune
Distributing is right there. Donald Trump is right there, promoting his
television show. You want to reach some of the most powerful people in
the world, you go to a trade show. Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell,
Ross Perot, theyre standing right there. Oprah Winfrey, standing right
there with Harpo Productions. You couldnt get to her? You can get to
her. The tradeshow is the doorway of opportunity.
I know we werent going to go in this direction, but Ive got to take you
here because it represents a certain kind of thinking, it cuts to the chase.
You figure out where are people going to be? Theyre going to be where
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theyre blowing four or five million dollars in three days. Thats where
people go. They go to the tradeshow to protect their job and to build their
company. And so, Id walk up to people, the biggest guy in the booth I
could find, well dressed, articulate. I put my hand out. You know what?
Theyre not in fear because theyre in a tradeshow. They think theyre
insulated, they think theyre safe. I put out my hand, and I go, Joel
Bauer. This must be very embarrassing. They say, Wh-what are you
talk about? I say, This must be very embarrassing!
And now, they go on the defensive, exactly where I want them. I dont
want them happy, I dont want them candy-coating. I want them on the
defensive because I know how to handle that, and youre going to know
how to handle it too, in a moment, if youre listening to this call. You
probably say, I cant believe that, hes antagonizing them! No Im not.
Not at all. Im saying, This must be very embarrassing for you. And,
they go, Who are you? And, I say, I might be the one guy generating
more profit for you during these three days of the show, than everyone
else combined! And that gets their attention. I said, I may be your most
important client. This must be very embarrassing.
And then, I lean in, and they lean in. I enter their space, and they do lean
in. And they go, What are you talking about? I go, Look at your
booth. I start whispering because when you cant be heard, they lean in
further. I said, Look at your booth. Youve got more people in your
booth working here than you have checking out or inquiring about your
products, services and features. That means, youre spending a fortune for
all the square footage and drayage. From the looks of this booth, Id say
youre spending close to a million eight in two days. And Ive got a
pretty good grasp of that industry. You should always become an expert
at whatever it is youre going after, so you can provide the right data, the
right expertise. That gets their attention.
And I say, You should have approximately 150 people standing in this
booth right now, all wanting to find out more about your products and
services. Im going to create that for you right now, right here. Im going
to put 150 people in your booth right now, right here, for free, unless you
tell me you dont want to succeed, unless you tell me you want to leave
here with a two million dollar loss. Unless you tell me I am a fool and you
dont want to succeed and produce dramatic profit, to enable you to
leverage and position yourself and your stockholders, and with the media.
Not only will I do that, but youll have all the attention of the media here
at the show, television, radio, newspapers and magazines because theyre
going to see that youve become the center of attention. Would you allow
me to do that for free right now? Because thats what I do for a living. I
build massive crowds for free for companies I choose, who need help.
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And then, if there was any apprehension or if they go, Well, what are you
talking about? I said, Would you like to see me do it? If you tug on my
pants leg while Im doing it, Ill stop doing it. Ill have 150 people in your
booth.
At which point, I jump up on the table, Im not kidding you, Kenrick,
jump up on the table. That may sound a little overt, but my model is overt
and by the way, those listening in, you dont need to jump up on the table
because were going to go to the techniques in a moment, if we have a
little bit of time. I jump up there, and I bring in a crowd. I go, Youre
going to want to see this! and I raise my hand. And I pull them in. I pull
them in, using energy and focus and eye contact. I pick up one of the
products and I get excited about it because theyre looking on the walls at
the benefits and features. I didnt use magic tricks, I didnt need to use
hypnosis. I just needed to be enthusiastic and talk about what they were
going to receive, using simple persuasion tactics.
And, Id frame them the moment and say, For those that would love a
free gift right now, $25.00 gift information package, youre going to want
to line up right over here, in front of the gift deployment station. This is
the only time we give them away. And so, using a little bit of circus
sideshow, and a whole lot of attitude and a whole lot of energy and some
nerve, I left with $1,500 a day, $2,000 a day, and eventually, starting
$10,000, $15,000 a day. Now, people out there are saying, Wait a
minute, that cant work for me, thats extraordinary talent. Wrong! I
mean, the things that I have written in the book and the things that I teach
live are as simple as wrapping your package.
Lets talk about the words right now
Kenrick:
Actually, Joel, Im going to have to intervene here, unfortunately.
Joel:
Go for it.
Kenrick:
Were out of time. But, what I do want to do, is I want you to hit us with
one thing that Ive been dying to hear you do because you are the master
at this. You are phenomenal at this! And, Ill tell you what, I need an
hour to get you even in your stride. Youre so fast and youre incredible.
Joel:
Well, I appreciate that.
Kenrick:
But, listen, do me a favor, this is the technique I want everyone to get that
you do, and youre so good at it. Talk to me youve got five minutes,
though. Thats all I can spare right now.
Joel:
You got it, Ill be precise.
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Kenrick:
Five minutes. Were going to come back together, Joel. Im going to find
a way to get us back together. But, heres what I want you to do, tell me
about the beginning of an interaction with somebody. But, youve got to
keep it to five minutes, but tell me, what do you do, how do you structure
what you say because what you say blows me away? Can I just jump in to
asking you what you do and hear how you do it?
Joel:
Yeah, and tell me what career Im representing because I can do it with

any career on Planet Earth, anything.
Kenrick:
All right, well, lets first do it with what you do in tradeshows, so lets
start with that. And then, Ive got two others Im going to have you do.
But, Joel, what do you do?
Joel:
Just ask me what I do for a living because those are the exact words
everyones familiar with.
Kenrick:
What do you do for a living, Joel?
Joel:
Have you ever been to a tradeshow or a sales meeting, Kenrick, in your

entire life?
Kenrick:
Yes.
Joel:
And, witnessed a performer who had 350 people surrounding him, unable
to move? Virtually not even breathing, focused on every moment, wanting
to buy, whipping out their checkbooks, their cash, their credit cards, dying
to buy whatever it is he was talking about? And, they stood there like a
riot, unable to move until they acquired just exactly what was being sold.
Have you ever experienced that before?
Kenrick:
No.
Joel:
Then, youve never seen me work.
Kenrick:
I love it!
Joel:
And, the whole point of that, if I may, because Im watching the time here,
now. You said, five, Ill give you five. Ladies and gentlemen, you are
here to pull them into the emotions and the experience, your desire in
revealing what it is you do, not your unique selling proposition. Pull them
into the experience so that they actually live it. The first part is a qualifier.
Have you ever been to a tradeshow or sales meeting in your entire life?
If they say, No, theyre a waste of time, why are you wasting your time
entertaining someone, taking them to lunch, picking up the tab? Do you
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need another friend? Ive got enough friends now for three lifetimes. I
have enough family and friends than I need to nurture.
Were not looking for just another contact, were looking for someone
qualified to be with us. I hope that doesnt sounds pompous, but quite
frankly, not everyone is qualified for me to give them all of my time, focus
and energy, when Ive got friends and family, who need it right now. I
want to know who really is serious about doing business with me, building
a relationship with me, and ultimately, becoming family and friends,
which is what happens when you develop a raving fan.
And, give me another one and Ill show them the structure. The qualifier
is the first key. Have you ever been?
Kenrick:
Lets do a real estate agent.
Joel:
Have you ever been in a home youd love to own, but didnt think you
could afford?
Kenrick:
Yes.
Joel:
I would love, absolutely adore, hearing you describe in detail, the home
youd love to own, didnt think you could afford. The qualifier is, Have
you ever been in a home youd love to own, didnt think you could
afford? The embedded command is, didnt think you could afford.
For those listening in right now, youre going to want to download the
entire recording for one reason. Youre going to want to want to read the
transcription, its already been done for you. But, youre going to want to
look at the pattern. Were not going to slow it down right now.
The words are there, the formula has been revealed. Im going to give you
the infrastructure right now. You fill in your words. Itll take you an
hour, maybe two, to find the perfect combination and then, to test it. You
always test. And, when you generate a massive response, you know
youve got something. Why is it people do not prepare for success? They
dont figure out what theyre going to say, how theyre going to look, or
how theyre going to have a retention mechanism to keep in touch with
that particular client.
So, lets look at the second component. Ever been in a home youd love
to afford, love to own, didnt think you could afford? Youve now told
them, they could afford. If they dont have the vision of the home theyd
love to own, guess what? Theyre not a player, theyre not going to buy.
Theyre not ready to do anything. Dont waste your time. Dont spin your
wheels. Go on to someone else. News, weather and sports or walk away,
its over.
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Second phase, I would love, absolutely adoreno woman, no man on this

planet has ever heard the words, absolute love and adore, from a
stranger in the first sentence that came out of their mouth, after a qualifier.
No ones ever heard it before.
Kenrick:
I absolute love and adore.
Joel:
Three most powerful words. Up till now, the five most powerful words of
the world were, you, new, great, guaranteed, and sex. And, I
disagree. The three most powerful words, people want to be loved,
adored. I would love, absolutely adore, absolute, absolute! Theres not
a more powerful word, absolute! I would love, absolutely adore hearing
you describe in detail, the home youd love to own, didnt think you could
afford. You whip out your wallet, it has a 4x4 3M sticker on it. You
hand them a little Post-It note, you hand them a pen, and you shut up.
And they begin writing.
Only two options, Kenrick, theyre either not going to do it and walk
away. Never happened to me in my entire life. Never happened to anyone
Ive ever taught it to and I have 20,000 e-mails here to prove it. They start
writing down, High-beamed ceilings, water in the example of a real
estate agent, remember, Im adlibbing here. You give me the career, I fill
in the blank. Give me a third one.
Kenrick:
Financial advisor.
Joel:
Financial advisor, fine. Have you ever met someone that, for free,
revealed in less than five minutes, how you could retire at an early age,
send your children to the finest private schools, and live life on your own
terms, without ever compromising, and didnt charge you a dime for it?
Kenrick:
No.
Joel:
Then, you havent met me! Thats what I do. Now, remember, thats an
adlib, Kenrick. I would want to refine and hone these, but the formula is
there. The qualifiers are there. And I meant when Id streamline, thats
exactly five on the second.
Kenrick:
You know what? I feel so bad I mean, Im so excited, but I wish I

could just go on and on. Were already so far over. This is phenomenal,
though! You are such a showman! I tell you, Id love to just model your
techniques and bring out even more. And I know that you have programs
and methods of teaching this stuff and when you get on a roll, man, youre
like a freight train, unstoppable and phenomenal! Its no wonder, youre
talked about by the Wall Street Journal as being so absolutely
phenomenal! Youre great, man!
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Joel:
Well, I think everyone contributed something tonight that truly coalesced.

Joel Bauer: http://www.joellive.com/
Kenrick:
Absolutely. Thank you again. I really appreciate all that youve given.
And, what Id like to do is, let me go and lets just go through some
questions. Weve had huge numbers of posts to the blog while weve been
doing this tonight and Id like to just try to rip through a few of these real
quick and see if I cant get some out. Dr. Knowles, are you there?
Eric:
Yes, I am.
Kenrick:
Well, if you werent, I wouldnt blame you but thank you for hanging in
there. Listen, let me just ask you; theres a question here dealing with
resistance and objections and the question is, Isnt resistance what we
used to call objections?
Eric:
One form of resistance is, sure. And, thats the kind that I think of as
really focused on the nature of the proposal or the offer. And so people
come up with objections. But theres also the kind of resistance that in
psychology is called reactants, where people are really resisting the whole
persuasion attempt. And, its not that they have objections about the
proposal, they just dont want to have their freedom limited. They dont
want to be pushed on.
And then, the other kind of resistance I talked about, was this inertia, the
fact that I just dont want to change, I dont want to do anything. Maybe,
its not as much in sales as it is, certainly, in the health behavior that we
try to change. Inertias a very big form of resistance and in that case, they
dont even have objections, they dont even listen to the proposal.
Kenrick:
Interesting. So in essence, resistance can come about from a mindset, it

can come about from some perceived conflict. It doesnt, necessarily,
have to be a full-blown objection.
Eric:
Thats correct.
Kenrick:
OK, excellent. Thank you, I agree with you. Let me go to another

question and let me just throw it out to any one of you guys. Penny says,
Im on the verge of opening a new real estate franchise. In order to get
corporate approval, I need to have a minimum number of good,
experienced agents. How do I persuade them (the agents) to think out of
the box and commit, before theres anything to commit to? I need them to
put it in writing and really agree to be part of this awesome new venture.
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If Im understanding what Pennys saying, she needs to get X number of

minimum agents, experienced agents, so that the company will let her
move forward, OK?
Dave:
Kenrick? Dave here.
Kenrick:
Go ahead.
Dave:
Maybe I can help out a little bit and Im sure somebody will have
something else to add.
Kenrick:
Go for it.
Dave:
The most important thing is and in using some of your terminology

Kenrick, is to talk to those agents who are the best agents, elicit some of
their criteria for whats missing in their current existence, or in their
current relationship, where theyre at. And then build your story around
how theyre going to get those things and demonstrate, using social proof
and future pacing, exactly what theyll receive when they start having
more control over their own destiny, or when they start getting more of the
things that they wanted, the reasons that they originally got into this. Get
them sold on the idea, get them focused on what is in it for them, and then,
once youve done that, just simply demonstrate what it would be like if
they were in that kind of an organization and ask them if they would
commit to joining that kind of an organization, if it existed. If they say,
Yes, then simply, have them write it down and send it in.
Joel:
Can I jump in also?
Kenrick:
Yes.
Joel:
Kenrick, the primary concern here, is she needs to attract first, before she
has the opportunity to do what Dave is brilliant at right there, because that
assumes we already are with these agents. She has to attract the right
agents. And so, let me give her an ad right now. Lets just say, her name
is Julie. What is her first name?
Kenrick:
Penny.
Joel:
Penny. Penny hires real estate agents. One million dollar expectations,
first year. Call, toll-free number, 888-772-4364 for $300.00 downloadable
free report. Now, that is the key. You want to attract volume. You dont
know who the quality is, youve got to siphon that out. You want to sort,
sift and attract. This is a marketing technique, but theres certainly,
enough callers here listening in, that are going to need this kind of thing.
Its called a hotline, and it runs under the radar. Its non-evasive and its
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non-threatening. They dont have to talk to someone. Theres a $300.00

downloadable free report. Theres a toll-free line. They dont have to talk
to someone.
Shes going to receive that night, because it says, Penny hires real estate
agents, one million dollar opportunity. Shes going to get everyone. And
then, when they do that at the end of the call, it says on the hotline,
Please submit your resume to the following e-mail address. Explain why
you feel you are qualified to generate a million dollars a year. And, it
puts them through a small questionnaire. This way Penny, with no energy
whatsoever, placing a $25.00 ad, can receive thousands of responses:
People who have literally pre-qualified themselves, depending upon their
being willing to fill out the questionnaire and respond.
And shes done it for virtually no money, with no hassle. And shes saved
her time, her dignity, and from that, she can begin to sort through, sort and
sift, pre-qualify and decide on who she then wants to apply Daves live
techniques with, in qualifying them further.
Kenrick:
Excellent. Lets go to the next question. I have a lot of great ideas, says
Malcolm, but have lost all motivation to follow through on them. I have
a great job as a computer programmer, but its a job, not a business, with
no room for creating passive income. I have no focus. There are about
four different businesses I want to pursue but Im already, falling behind
in my job studies. I may actually be doing exactly what I need to be doing
at this moment, but I feel like Im thrashing. Anybody have any
suggestions that would help him to gain a little bit of focus and zero in on
those four businesses, perhaps?
Mark:
I could talk a little bit about that. This is Mark.
Kenrick:
Go ahead, Mark.
Mark:
Well, first of all, Ive found that people who do four businesses, tend to
fail at all of them.
Speaker:
Exactly.
Mark:
OK? What Im saying here is, if you havent succeeded at one business,
how can you possibly, expect to succeed at four? Now listen, this is
coming from a guy, I call myself a Serial Innovator. I got that phrase from
Gary Halbert, actually. He has sort of the same malady that I have, and I
imagine that just about everyone on the phone does, as well. I consider
myself to be creative, you know, I come up with a lot of ideas. And, a lot
of people say, Oh, if only I had one idea!
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And, unfortunately, thats not my problem. My problem is, Ive got so

many ideas, but Im paralyzed by all these ideas. Im sure that he can
relate to that. But Ive found that when I have all these different ideas and
I try to apply all of them, or I try to actualize all of them, nothing happens.
So, what you need to do, is you need to focus all of your energy. And we
talk about the different laws. Weve got the Law of Focused Energy and
the Law of Focused Attention. And, if your energy and your attention is
diffused among all of these different things, youre not going to get a
result. But, if you can focus that energy on just one thing, focus that
attention on one thing, youre going to find that its going to be amazingly
easy to accomplish that one thing.
Do that, kick some ass with that and then, go on to the next one. So thats
the most important thing. The next thing is, I think he was talking about
just not being motivated, right? Clarifying and cutting down on one thing
isnt going to address the motivation. But the other thing is, hes probably
not in touch with what he wants to do. He probably doesnt really
understand at a deep level every day, why he needs to get out of that
situation hes in. Hes saying, Im doing this job, but Ive got these four
businesses I want to do, Im not motivated
You know, get really deep into that. Do you really want to have that job?
Five years from now, do you want to be stuck in that stupid job thats
sucking the life out of you? Im speaking pretty harshly, but this is the
kind of candor you need to address yourself with. So, thats what Im
talking about, when finding out what your reasons why are. All right so
ask that question, get really deep into that, be relentless with yourself, and
then, youre going to find that motivation is simply, not an issue. Its
going to be like, Wow! How can I not do this work to achieve this
thing?
Kenrick:
Excellent, and by the way, Mark, a gentleman, by the name of Paul wrote,
and said, The Bible says, Faith without works is dead. Joyner just
paraphrased it. Thats pretty good!
Mark:
I actually talk about that. In the very first lesson, we say, Hey, look, you
know, this isnt something that puts down religion, you know, not in any
way. In fact, all of these principles have been echoed by almost every
faith in existence.
Kenrick:
Yes, absolutely. All right, let me address this one to Kevin. Are you
there?
Kevin:
I am here!
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Kenrick:
Whoa, youre still with us! Youre a trooper! I know its late where you
are too. Kevin, theres a question, I think, you might be able to address
well, and the question is, Im wondering where I would place decisions
that I dont want to happen. Putting them in the past, seems to make them
happen. Now, Im not sure what the question is really about, whether its
putting a decision in the mind of someone else, or taking them to a time in
the future. It might be with someone else, it might be within themselves.
I assume its somebody else. But, where would you put a decision that
they dont want to happen, in other words, not making the decision?
Kevin:
Say the question for me that they wrote, one more time.
Kenrick:
What I have here is, Im wondering where I would place decisions that I
dont want to happen. Putting them in the past, seems to make them
happen.
Kevin:
Ah, yeah, yeah. So what the person is asking you, I dont want them to
choose Remax, I want them to choose Coldwell Banker because thats
who I work for. So when youre comparing yourself to the competition
and you dont want them to choose the competition, you want to make
sure that you walk them out into the future. Dr. Knowles addressed this
just more than adequately, where he said essentially, when you put
something further in the future, it is extremely difficult to find the pain
that is involved in making that decision; its extremely easy to find the
positive stuff.
So, you take anything negative like picking Remax in this case, put it in
the future and say, Hey, you know what? You could work with Remax,
but do you know what, do you want to work with people who, you know,
who are really out there only for the money, or do you want to work with
people who have a team spirit? Or, whatever the hell the specific answer
to that question is for the person, but youve got to put it in the future.
Any time you put it in the future and youre dealing with your
competition, the competitions the negative piece that goes first. Thats an
always. There is no going into the past. Dont bring people back in the
past. It will cause you way more trouble than you ever want to get into.
Kenrick:
And, by the way, Ive found the rest of this. Heres the whole question.
Im also wondering whether to place the images of
product/experience/ownership in the future, present or past, in order to
trigger a buying experience. I think we just answered that, right?
Kevin:
Yeah, any time something hurts, if somebody screwed up by doing

business with somebody else and they had a terrible experience, punch it
hard. Let them hit it hard. Find out how frustrated, irritated, ticked off,
78
torqued they are that they did that. And then put yourself, your product,
your service, into the future and bring it out as far as you can.
Kenrick:
Yes, OK, great. Now, heres something, Ill just throw this out to anybody
that might want to deal with this. Theres a person who wrote that his
wife is recovering at her daughters home, from a hospital stay in severe
depression and is currently, hypnotized by the dominance of her daughter
not to love apparently, the husband. And so hes asking, What can I say
or do to get her love back? And, he says, they still communicate
frequently. She comes over occasionally, has indicated shell come over
for amorous reasons before long, but that the daughter is a domineering
person, most hes ever known. And, how can he move the wife away
from the daughter? What could be done?
Mark:
Oh, God! Can we shift the frame? Does he need to move the love away
from the daughter? I mean, thats the question hes asking there, that may
not be the right question at all.
Speaker:
Correct.
Kenrick:
OK, whats a better question?
Mark:
Well, I mean, I think the right thing to do, would be to simply love the
daughter, love the wife and be persistent with that and have some stamina.
And, over time, hes probably going to find that by really loving them and
putting up with any of the slings and arrows he has to bear, for months or
perhaps, even years, that the fact that hes loving them, is going to win out
in the long term. And, I would almost say that if hes really loving the
daughter and really loving the wife, that thats going to heal any of the
problems they have. Why is the daughter being domineering? She
probably needs attention. She probably needs love. And, if he really,
really does that, really genuinely does that, I think the other problems are
going to go away.
Kenrick:
Wonderful.
Dave:
To add to that just a little bit, if I could, I think the other thing to do, is
simply to acknowledge to the wife, what the daughters doing and just say,
You know, I really appreciate how much our daughter or your daughter is
doing to demonstrate her love to you. Shes being caring, shes doing all
of these things and youre so lucky, or were so lucky that we did such a
good job of raising her, that shes now this concerned. And, what that
really does, is put her in a position where she can tell the story to her
daughter that says, You know, he really, recognizes the value of what
youre doing.
79
Kenrick:
Excellent. Oh, these are good. Im trying not to jump in here, guys. Im
just listening. Oh, this is so fun.
Speaker:
Kenricks dying there. Hes like, Oh, I gotta take that one!
Kenrick:
You know, thats OK, Im just having fun. Hey, Dr. Knowles, theres a
gentleman who says, I and my colleagues are selling software at an
average selling price of 1.2 million dollars per sale close. How can we
reduce options/choices, when we only have one product? And, we may
not know enough to answer that, but is there anything there you might be
able to speak to?
Eric:
It sounds like the options are already at about the minimum. I think
thehmm
Kenrick:
And actually, it was Kevin that was talking about reducing options, so
Eric:
Right.
Kenrick:
if either of you guys want to take that.
Eric:
Well, that sounds like its already reduced, doesnt it?
Kenrick:
Yeah, it does.
Kevin:
Eric, I would widen the scope out and just put it out to make the scope
much wider, where youre just one letter. Youre letter Z and everybody
else is A through X and you are part of the big option picture and then,
just narrow it down to you and two others and then say, If you do
business with them, heres whats going to happen. And, you could be
imperfect with us, but I tell you what And then, you take it out and
just go from there, in the future.
Speaker:
Right, thats the options because you have only one product, but youre in
a market with multiple products. And, you ask them to boil it down to as
few options as possible. I mean, theres a wonderful thing about offering
people a choice. Not only does it get people committed to whatever they
choose, but its a wonderful way of dealing with resistance. Rather than
just saying, Do you want this or not? to say, Do you want this one or
that one? allows them a place to put their resistance. If you say, Do you
want this one or not? you know, people feel ambivalent. The desire for
the product and the concerns about the product are all focused on that one
product. But, if you offer people a choice, Do you want this one or that
one? it really, allows them to break out that ambivalence and to put their
desire on the one they choose, and also, to put their resistance on the ones
they reject.
80
Speaker:
And, in a lot of ways, you can do the assumptive close like that, too.
Speaker:
Yeah.
Speaker:
You know, you can also say, Hey or, In what day of the week are
you going to buy this? Are you going to put it on your credit card or are
you going to pay by check?
Speaker:
Right.
Speaker:
All of those things presuppose that the closings going to occur, and I
think thats a great way to narrow down options, if youre looking at it that
way.
Kenrick:
Interesting, and I love to throw in words like, easily, naturally. How

easy will this be for you to buy? Naturally, itll feel really good to move
forward. You know, what will that look like?
Joel:
Kenrick, they may also want to intensify the value proposition because
theyre emphasizing their offering, comparing it to others. Thats not
always the way to go. In fact, I dont sell that way at all. I sell the service
and support in this case, youre selling the benefit of doing business with
that company. Its not about how good we are and what it is we do, its
about how good we are and who it is we are. And, so using that quote,
that aphorism, what exactly is it that enables them to differentiate, position
themselves unique in the marketplace? Not just the offering, not just the
price. In fact, charging more is a better idea, as long as youre offering so
much value. What is their guarantee? What is it they do that no one else
can do as effectively?
And, perhaps, even on their website, if they can drive them there, there
should be so much value added, downloadable free report and gifts and
tools that just puts them in the position where theyre the only player in
the game and gives them a chart, showing that, Yes, we do charge more
and heres our competition, but look what youre receiving. We see those
charts quite frequently. You know, marketing is an art form. Were only
talking about persuasion here, but to give them an answer and only talk
about that and not talk about the other mechanisms, to me, is an injustice.
Theres so much more that can be done.
Kenrick:
Sure, absolutely.
Mark:
Indeed, well said.
81
Kenrick:
And, let me ask Mark, theres a question here that says, Should you put
into your focus, a dollar amount? Or, should you put into your focus
something more like great customer service, which would, ultimately, lead
to people giving you a greater dollar amount?
Mark:
Yeah, thats a great question and I get that all the time. And, frankly, I
dont think that the dollar amount thing is all that productive. You know,
saying, Hey, Im going to make X number of dollars by this date
unless youve got an extremely specific way of getting it done, unless you
know Im going to sell X units of this, and youve got a way to actually,
do it. And, what this comes down to is, its a problem I see a lot of people
experiencing and actually, this is something that later, Simpleology, of
course, is going to address. Were going to add it in.
But, people will come up with a goal that they dont believe. And the
disbelief comes from you thinking its impossible, or your mind not really
being clear on what the steps are. We use something called the
backward planning process, which is something I used in the military.
Im sure Dave is familiar with this, being a former soldier as well. And,
you know, what we would do, is we would say, What is the desired end
state? And, we would use this to plan military operations. And, we
would say, What is the thing that you do, immediately before that?
And, you trace your steps back until the very moment when youre sitting
in that chair, making that plan. And, if you can see that plan and if you
really believe, hey you know what? This is totally doable! And, if the end
goal is, Ive got X number of dollars, and you can see those steps and
theres just no question about it, then the dollar number is fine. However,
its got to be something you believe, its got to be something really, really
specific and super, super clear. Youve got to understand how youre
going to accomplish that. So, I hope that answers the question.
Dave:
Can I add to that, Mark, just a little bit?
Mark:
Please.
Dave:
You know, one of the challenges, I think, people have when they set dollar
numbers is this, you say, You know, I want to make a million dollars,
or, Im going to make a million dollars in the next year, and your
highest income in life that youve ever had is $50,000.
Mark:
Thats right.
Dave:
You know, until youve made $75,000, you cant make $100,000. And,
until youve made $100,000, you cant make $200,000, and on and on and
on and on, up to a million. So, you know, as you backwards plan, like
82
Marks saying, set up those realistic goals that are achievable and be
excited about the fact that you made $75,000, when the highest goal
youve ever made was $50,000 before. Acknowledge those results
because its not major battles that win a war, its a multitude of small
skirmishes that lead up to an overwhelming success. And, backwards
planning, like Marks saying is absolutely, a powerful tool.
Mark:
Dave, youre so right, you know? And, a lot of people will tell you,
Well, all youve got to do is just switch your belief up, believe that you
can get that million dollars. And, I say thats a bunch of horse hockey,
right?
Dave:
It is.
Mark:
How? How are you going to do it? These guys who are telling you to do
it, dont have a way for you to do it, and what youre saying is right.
These little tiny stepslook, if you want a million dollars, first learn to
make $1,000. And then, you believe that. Thats real to you. And then,
increase it. Just go a little notch higher. And, thats how you become a
millionaire.
Kevin:
Can I throw something in, Kenrick?
Kenrick:
Yes, please.
Kevin:
You know, the data thats been done on goal setting with most of the
research, theres almost no research that shows that long-term goal setting
is useful in any way. Almost all of the goal setting stuff that works, is
short to medium. And, by that, I mean, six months to one to two years.
Thats where the stuff really works. And then, when you interview people
who have succeeded, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Elvis Presley, they
always tell you, You know, we dont expect to make it past our next
record. We just hope its a good one. Were going to do our best.
Mark:
Who was it that just said that?
Kevin:
Elvis Presley, John Lennon, McCartney, all three of them always said
every time a record came out, This is probably our last one and we
probably wont make it, but were going to do our best at it.
Mark:
I need to contact you. I want to get some of the research. Thats fantastic.
Kevin:
Yeah. Theres some pretty cool stuff out there on short and long-term
goals. Long-term stuff just doesnt work, anymore. We dont grow up
and become something anymore. We evolve or you die.
83
Speaker:
Was this Kevin saying this, by the way?
Kenrick:
Yes, its Kevin.
Mark:
That was Kevin, OK, thanks, Kevin, for all that.
Kevin:
Evolve or die.
Kenrick:
Yeah, you know, I have to tell you guys, theres people that have written
us on the blog, if any of you are looking, any of the presenters here. But,
to hear you guys share so forthrightly, and so much from your heart and
just spill everything youve got, I dont even know what to say, except
thank you. This is such a privilege to be able to work with you folks like
this and have all of us just take on issue after issue after issue. I couldnt
think of a more fun way to spend an evening.
Speaker:
Thank you, Kenrick, for having us all.
Kenrick:
Yeah.
Speaker:
Wonderful.
Speaker:
I sure appreciate it.
Speaker:
My pleasure.
Dave:
I hope everybody realizes what a gift youve given them, by taking the
time and effort to put this together for them.
Kenrick:
Well, I tell you, with each of you that have spoken, its only opened a
hundred more doors. Kevins closing technique, Id love to hear more
about that. You know, Joels masterful entertainment and ways of
languaging to get people to listen to us, incredible! DavesI cant get
over Dave, your life history and what youve done, to get to where you
are. And, I think the way we could expose cults and teach to make the
power of a cult true for ourselves, without being horribly wronging
people.
What Dr. Knowles talks about with resistance and Kevin Hogan with all
of these wonderful strategies of organizing our persuasion into really,
effective strategies. And, Kevin, again, your closing stuff, man, weve got
to go through that again, in greater detail. And, Mark, oh, my God! I
mean, you know, here we are talking about how to put ourselves into the
right mental framework and how to frame things to get to where we want
to go.
84
This has been one roller coaster of a call. Im drained! And, energized at
the same time! This is phenomenal! Again, thanks to each of you. Weve
spent over three hours, almost three hours and ten minutes, a little bit more
than that, and all I can say is, I really would love to do more of this and
take it to another level. And, Im sure well figure out a way. But, thanks
again, guys, and I hope everyone listening just had a rocking good time
and I know I sure did and I cant wait to take it to even, a higher level,
still. Thats my commitment, is to bringing you the best of the best, and I
think weve accomplished that tonight.
So, thank you, guys.
Speaker:
Take care, everybody!
Kenrick:
MP3 is going to be coming, the MP3 downloads, the transcripts, well

give it all to you, man. So, watch for your e-mails to come, and Im going
to send e-mails so that you can figure out how to contact each of these
Masters of Persuasion that have been on this call. They all have things for
you, and I think youre going to be really excited to get that information.
So, keep your eyes open, and well keep it coming for you, guys. So, have
a wonderful night, and thanks again, everybody!
Speakers:
Good night, Kenrick. Thank you! Thanks, everyone else!
Continue On For Your Next Step
85
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your persuasion and influence skills to the level of a Master! When you join
Kenricks Double Helix list you will be getting some extra bonuses:
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Preferred notice of more Free events like the Persuasion Masters Call.
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In the future When you join my Double Helix list you will receive many
valuable tools to easily increase your persuasion skills.
However, that is not the best, the most valuable, or the most important reason
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and in the trenches experience! And its not for everyone
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producers in many selling niches over the last 27+ years. How participants in
my seminars and Coaching Club regularly and repeatedly report sales
increases of 45%, 121%, 308% and more.
For most of my whole life, Ive searched for a unifying principle for persuasion.
The core, yet overarching organizing principle of clear communication.
What I recently uncovered is the wellspring. It simplifies and organizes the
Alpha strategies of increasing value ( like social proof, and scarcity, etc.); the
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"Persuasion Masters Reveal Their "Gun to the

Head", Must Work Techniques...

Persuasion Masters Secrets - Revealed

Hi... this is Kenrick Cleveland.

phone call and...

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

These are just some of the comments.

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

The audio recording of the Persuasion Masters Call for Free.

Click Here To Preserve Your Double Helix Status

Persuasion Masters Secrets

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Persuasion Masters Secrets - Revealed

Well good evening everyone, this is Kenrick Cleveland, and I am excited

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

The purpose of our call tonight is to give you hard-hitting persuasion

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Oh, such a great question. Well, a lot of the so-called self-improvement

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Right? So, when I say target, Im using it almost interchangeably, with

So, in other words

You see that in your minds eye.

having an ill-formed goal. In other words, Well, Ive got to do

OK, and whats the next step?

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Well, the Scientific Formula For Success, I would defy anyone to

It doesnt matter what culture youre from.

Thats right, and Id say, Simply, see your target.

OK, perfect, and the second one is?

Keep it in your sights.

And, the third one is?

Hit it until you hit it.

Right, and Im simplifying things. Well, hey, it is Simpleology, after all.

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

doing which, like I mentioned, well do by e-mail. But, let me switch

Sure. I think that the frame is a great, almost an ubermodel of persuasion.

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Thats right. Well said.

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Do you care which one? Do you want to pick one?

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Thats a framing issue, too, isnt it?

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

And, you know, if you listen to what is presupposed in someones

Thats very good.

Now, when they show up, whats the frame?

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Now, that sets up a frame. It sets up a series of perceptions and reactions

Completely different frame.

Thats right, I remember that. Thats right, great.

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Its a courtesy call.

Its a courtesy call, its not a sales call.

Right, Im not a housewife, Im a domestic engineer.

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Thanks for having me!

I am, can you hear me?

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed

Persuasion Masters Secrets- Revealed