Sky News Australian Agenda Foreign Minister, Bob Carr 25 November 2012

Interview with Bob Carr Australian Agenda program, 25 November 2012

Peter van Onselen: We are joined now by the Australian Foreign Minister, Bob Carr. Senator Carr, thanks for joining us.

Bob Carr: Pleasure to be here, Paul.

Peter van Onselen: Peter.

Bob Carr: Peter, Paul.

Peter van Onselen:

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I'm sure you're happy that you're here with both of us. Let me start by asking you the question that you know we have to go to right off the top, the whole issue with Bruce Wilson and the AWU saga. Bruce Wilson has come out and said that the Prime Minister k new nothing, does he have the credibility for that to mean anything given his intricate involvement in some of these events...

Bob Carr: I don't know him, I can't comment on his credibility, but I can say as we in the Labor Party see it this is a conspiracy theory fastened on by the Opposition and as an American visitor to these shores not long ago said to me, "Your Prime Minister is one hell of a tough lady, one hell of a tough lady. So let's have the Opposition fasten on to this, they will fasten on to it as if their lives depended on it having no other policies, having no policies, but I've got a lot of confidence, so have my colleagues, that the Prime Minister will give them as good as they directed her.

Peter van Onselen: So do you think that means that she'll come out and make some sort of a statement about that, because that's what the Opposition want her to do. They want her to do it in Parliament not at a press conference. Will we at least get one of the two this week?

Bob Carr: Peter, it's a matter of whether you dignify this conspiracy theory with any such attention, and I'd think twice about that. But, again, she's a tough woman and she sees this, we all see it, as a sort of right-wing indulgence and spinning conspiracy theory. We'll see where it goes.

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Peter van Onselen: It's come out of the union movement first and foremost though, hasn't it. The Opposition have taken out the cudgels more recently but this started by discussions by former union officials about alleged wrongdoing in the past more broadly, not necessarily directly at the Prime Minister, and then expanded from there to the media, investigative journalists like Hedley Thomas. It's now gone wider afield than 'The Australian', the ABC has spent the week reporting on this, and the Opposition only in the last Parliamentary sitting finally got around to asking questions on this through Julie Bishop. So it's not just right-wing conspiracy, it is the media, former union officials, including the ABC in terms of the media, and now of course the Opposition that are asking about it. It is something that she has to address, surely.

Bob Carr: The press gallery can pick these things up and play with them and explore them, use them for a time. I think a bit of that process is going on here. Again, on the trade union movement it's a broad spread of people and enthusiasms and activities. If you look at the pockets , the pockets of impropriety in the union movement over the last say 20 years, the movement comes up pretty well as an organisation fighting to protect men and women in employment. I think it's a tragedy that you've had in, I guess, two pockets of the union movement in two separate periods quite disturbing corruption. In one case the Health Services Union, shocking, repugnant and apparently systemic. But it shouldn't blind us to the fact that it is a broad movement and you've got to say when it comes to corruption resistance it has stood up pretty well. Holding the Labor Party responsible for the occasional blemishes, serious as those two cases are in the trade union movement, will be like saying the Liberal Party with its business links is tainted by corporate malfeasance, and that will be ridiculous.

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Paul Kelly: I don't think that's sustainable, Senator. As we know and as you know there is an institutional relationship, a firm institutional relationship between the Labor Party and the trade union movement in terms of 50% representation at conferences. We've had a number of examples of unacceptable union activity or corruption, whether we're talking now about within the building industry, the Health Services Union as you've talked about, the Bruce Wilson affair. Can I ask you looking at this generally as a very experienced Labor politician don't you think that there's some requirement on the party to look at its links with the union movement and try to sort out how it can minimise the damage on this front?

Bob Carr: You've raised several cases, I'm saying they are not systemic. They are not systemic. They are not across the whole spread of union activity. They're not characteristic of how unions go about their business in the manufacturing or mining sector, the services sector, on a daily basis.

Paul Kelly: Let's accept that proposition and still address the question though, because when these issues arise they are very damaging and they damage Labor.

Bob Carr: I agree and, Paul, it's not an unfair question. But to say that because there's been this quite scandalous betrayal of the members of the Health Services Union, for example, by
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the corruption of part of its leadership is not grounds in itself to say that the Labor Party as an organisation should sever its links - its institutional, its constitutional links with the trade union movement as a whole. If we didn't have the links with the union movement we'd be looking for them, and they keep us in touch with the reality of the suburban street, of the country town, with the aspirations of ordinary Australians.

Paul Kelly: Let me just follow that question up. Do you therefore think that your institutional ties with the union movement are an electoral plus or a negative for Labor?

Bob Carr: Well it works both ways. If union leaders let their members down, and we've got two examples of that, two examples of it, if they let their members down Labor looks embarrassed or looks compromised. But I'll tell you what, when you've got a conservative government go on the warpath against the legitimate entitlements of men and women in the workforce then the Labor Party - I'll give you one example. You take the battle over asbestos and James Hardie pulling out of the country leaving people with asbestos related disease with no chance of getting compensation, their due, their just compensation. It was the Labor Party that worked with the trade union movement to keep James Hardie here onshore and put them in the dock. It was the Labor Party, a Labor Government, mine in particular, that insured they went on paying compensation. That was Laborism at its very finest.

Peter van Onselen: Can I just ask...

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Bob Carr: Wharf dispute will be another example. I won't go into details, but workers being sacked for no offence except they belonged to the trade union movement and the Labor Party stood up for them. I know that those workers back in 1998 were very grateful that a Labor Party, a party with links to the trade union movement, was around. They are two examples.

Peter van Onselen: Can I just ask you one final question on this AWU matter, would you personally like to see the Prime Minister just to clean the air, make some sort of statement about this to try to end the matter?

Bob Carr: Peter, as that American visitor said to me, she's one hell of a tough lady.

Peter van Onselen: But what about you?

Bob Carr: No, I trust her judgment. In the time I've worked with her in Cabinet I've been very impressed by her finely tuned sense of judgment and timing, and I trust her on this occasion.

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Peter van Onselen: Has there been any discussion that you've been involved in about a strategy to deal with this issue in the final week of Parliament?

Bob Carr: Well if there had been do you think I'd be revealing it, spreading it out on the table here for you monsters to pick over it? Let's move on.

Peter van Onselen: We will move on. Another domestic issue though, I've got to ask you about Eddie Obeid. Do you regret as premier...

Bob Carr: A fragrant subject.

Peter van Onselen: Do you regret as premier making him a minister?

Bob Carr: He was elected by the Caucus, in those days I didn't have the power to pick my ministers. It might have been happier if I did. But...

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Peter van Onselen: Would he have been a minister if you had the power?

Bob Carr: No, he wouldn't have been and my relationship with him I think has been referred to in a few of the books and a few of the articles. If I had any reason, any grounds, to have removed him earlier I would have but don't forget at the end of that single term as minister it was I who insisted that he go, and it was a big, robust argument and I got him out of the Cabinet. I'm then on record lobbying the people who took over the government after me, after I left in 2005, to relegate him and one of his colleagues whose name was always associated with him, out of the Parliament. I make one further point, in 10 years as premier I never faced an ICAC finding against me or ministers in my government and I'm proud of that. The current ICAC enquiry which is very serious relates to matters and activities that took place in 2007 and 2008. I resigned as premier in August 2005 and I'm not called to give evidence to the inquiry because - I've got to insist on this, there's no suggestion that in my government he or any partner made an inappropriate decision.

Peter van Onselen: Be that as it may though, where there's smoke there's fire. In the case of Eddie Obeid he's been unlucky, there's been I think four fires at his various work and home residences, he was then a minister subsequent to that. There was a lot of claims coming from the likes of Kerry Chikarovski and John Brogden, questions asked of yourself about his suitability and allegations of corruption and so forth during his time there, none of which were proved by the way. All of that was coming, you were

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mocking of it in parliament. You are a very good parliamentary performer in the bear pit and you dismissed it.

Bob Carr: But, Peter, the Opposition to raise something without a hint of an allegation is no help here. What you need is proof. If a prime minister or premier in the middle of a term as an Opposition say "I don't like your minister" and present no proof, you haven't got the basis for going to the governor and having him expunged from the cabinet list.

Peter van Onselen: It's less about the governor and more though about the factional system of the Labor Party then, isn't it, with the way that they chose him?

Bob Carr: Let's wait till the report's out and the Labor Party in NSW can face up to the challenge, in particular the challenge of why he was put back in the upper house after I, in March 2003, with a bit of difficulty and a lot of fighting had said no he's not coming back into the ministry.

Paul Kelly: How does the Labor Party in NSW face up to the challenge? We've got this inquiry in Sydney now about corruption, we've got massive headlines virtually on a daily basis about Eddie Obeid. The stench of corruption is everywhere. This is doing ongoing and

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immense damage to the Labor Party in NSW at both the state and federal level. What is the strategy to fix this?

Bob Carr: Paul, I think all of those propositions are unarguable, absolutely unarguable, and the Labor Party has to give an explanation of why Eddie Obeid expelled from the cabinet in 2003, after the 2003 state election, was allowed to linger like a bad smell in legislative council. In other words he was pre-selected again to go back into the Parliament. Having him removed from the ministry was a perfect reason to say you don't go back into Parliament. But that was after my time. That was after my time. Again, the discipline in my government protected us from any - the sort of malfeasance that is now being alleged.

Paul Kelly: I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking now about the present and the future.

Bob Carr: The party is going to have to face up to that.

Paul Kelly: And what should it do?

Bob Carr:

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Let's talk about that when the year's clear and the ICAC inquiry is over. I got into trouble for contempt of court once when I offered a running commentary on an active ICAC inquiry.

Peter van Onselen: We'll hold you to that, let's talk about it when the air is cleared.

Bob Carr: Let me say, they are absolutely fair questions and NSW Labor have got to work with the disability attached to it, the huge disadvantage attached to it, of having this in its legacy, in its record.

Paul Kelly: But how can Labor perform well in NSW at the next federal election given all of this? We know what Labor MPs in west and south west Sydney are saying, and they're saying that they are on the nose big time, the Labor Party is on the nose big time in NSW, in Sydney. What can be done about this over the next six months?

Bob Carr: I think there are a lot of challenges, a lot of factors in that challenge to the Labor vote in western Sydney. I think the party is clearly challenged. The ICAC inquiry is one subset of those challenges. I think Labor has got to work very hard in emphasising the things that we have done for the people of western Sydney and in particular the social reforms, the boost to family incomes that Labor has delivered. If there's one factor that

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works powerfully in that demographic group, in that community, it is low interest rates that sound Labor economic management has delivered. Labor can stand on every street corner of western Sydney and say: we've saved your jobs with our response to the global financial crisis and you've got interest rates at a colossal low which means thousands of dollars more that you've got to spend on your school-going kids and the rest of your family.

Peter van Onselen: Bob Carr, hold that thought, we're going to take a commercial break. There's a lot we want to get through in the international sphere, starting, I guess, halfway getting there on the asylum seekers issue. We're going to take a break, we'll continue with the foreign minister in a moment.

Welcome back. You're watching Australian Agenda where Paul Kelly and I are talking to the Foreign Minister, Bob Carr. We are edging our way to foreign policy issues, let's talk about asylum seekers first. I mean, there's no...

Bob Carr: That's sort of domestic. We're still on the domestic...

Peter van Onselen: I know you want to talk about it.

Bob Carr:
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Oh, yeah, sure.

Peter van Onselen: At the end of the day, I mean, this is a complete mess, isn't it? What you can do to fix it?

Bob Carr: I'm going to put it in an international context. You've got 40 million displaced people in the world, what is it, 1.5 million in Afghanistan, something like that number in Pakistan. I tell you what, you can change the government of Australia tomorrow and it would still be faced with this problem and we'd be working with the policy tools we've got: offshore processing and how you treat them onshore and all the rest. The Malaysian arrangement as well would stay on the agenda. So let me just say, it ain't going to go away because of the displacement of people throughout the world and the existence of the people smuggling industry.

Peter van Onselen: Let me then ask a follow-up to that, because if it is such an intractable problem why has Labor sold its soul to try to deal with this in a less humanitarian way than it talked about in Opposition? I mean, it was so opposed to the Pacific Solution the then immigration spokesperson called it the greatest day of his political life when he unwound it. TPVs are something that have been so scalded by Labor as causing mental health yet we've now got a version of that in terms of the bridging visas that Chris Bowen has announced. If it's such an intractable problem wouldn't Labor have been better off to stick to its humanitarian guns rather than sellout principles it stood by for well over a decade?
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Bob Carr: The resilience of the people smuggling activity is the fundamental reason for that. The fact that you've got a business model that has people receive $10,000 from people who aspire to migrate to Australia in the ports of Sri Lanka or elsewhere. This model has been resilient and hard to bust, but the way you bust it is by having offshore processing. By sending a powerful message that if you get into Australian territorial waters you're not guaranteed an existence in Australia.

Paul Kelly: But, minister, offshore processing is not working at the moment so I think the real question is...

Bob Carr: What is working though is the demonstration that Sri Lankans who get into Australian waters are sent back.

Paul Kelly: That's correct.

Bob Carr: It's a tough decision by this Government and it will take some time to penetrate the waterfronts of Sri Lanka, but penetrate it will.

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Paul Kelly: Let me just ask you, given the incredibly difficult nature of this problem is it possible for an Australian Government essentially to stop the boats? Is that possible?

Bob Carr: The Australian people will insist that they keep trying because the Australian people believe, you know, despite all those displacements in the world and the recruitment of irregular maritime arrivals on the waterfronts of nations to our north, they will insist that Australian governments give it their best shot using the policy tools that we've got.

Paul Kelly: But that's defeatist. That's very defeatist. I mean, to say the Australian people will insist governments keep trying that implies that it's not going to work.

Bob Carr: It will keep being challenged. It will keep being challenged.

Paul Kelly: Can any Australian government...

Bob Carr:

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Paul, let me be very clear, I believe it will and can work and it's beginning to work with the return of Sri Lankans to their country. Now that is a very powerful message. Sri Lanka is the major source, it spiked, irregular maritime arrivals have spiked out of Sri Lanka. It has gone down from other jurisdictions and I believe that what we are doing now in simply sending them back to Sri Lanka, with the support and understanding of the Sri Lankan government, will get that message there.

Paul Kelly: If we can just switch to foreign policy, we've just had this conflict in the Middle East. One of the interesting features about this was we had a new government in Egypt which got very involved in this. What's your takeout about the role of Egypt and the new government?

Bob Carr: I was honoured to meet President Morsi back four months ago. I was struck in an hourlong conversation by the fact that this man is first and foremost an Egyptian nationalist, that he wants to reassert Egyptian leadership in the region in the world after what he sees as a decade of somnolence under President Mubarak. He's demonstrated that in a number of ways, by going to the Non-Aligned Movement summit in Teheran and saying when he was asked whether he wanted, whether he would meet the supreme leader of Iran he said "No, I'm a president and I talk to presidents".

Peter van Onselen: Senator, can I jump in, we've got footage that we've put up at the moment of Tahir Square with some of the protests that are going on there.

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Bob Carr: Terrific.

Peter van Onselen: At the end of the day when you see this Egypt is so central to peace in the Middle East, democracy in Egypt hasn't been all that it was cracked up to be, has it?

Bob Carr: I'll give you this interpretation of what's happened in the last few days in Egypt: I believe this is a country in transition with the traditional conflict between a new government, a revolutionary government if you like, and institutions, in this case the judicial system, the prosecutorial system that have been crafted, shaped by the previous regime. The acid test is not this one, the acid test will be the forthcoming vote on a new constitution and the elections that will follow it. I would give some time for President Morsi to make his contribution to this transition. It's a transitional phase. And don't forget he's the first democratically elected president the country has had, and in that conversation with me in the palace he said this, he said "Egypt is not a religious state", that's coming from a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, "Egypt is no longer a military state, we are a civil state". Now there's enormous promise here and it's a promise that was confirmed by his performance at the Non-Aligned Movement summit in Teheran and a promise confirmed by his brokering of this truce between Israel and Hamas. And bear in mind that that's created the possibility of Hamas working with Egypt and not working with Iran.

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Peter van Onselen: But religion is an obvious problem in the Middle East, it goes without saying, displacement as well in relation to events that have occurred with Syria. Now we have also got the Israeli-Gaza situation having flared up recently. Is there anything that is going to change in this region in coming years or is it going to remain as unstable as it appears now?

Bob Carr: We can't despair. It would be easy to look at various indicators out of the region and say this is an arena for conflict. But we are obliged to work at it, that's why I've made a modest contribution by asking world leaders to think about a medical peace plan for Syria. If we can't get the ceasefire we want and the negotiated transition to a pleural political system let's at least get respect for ambulances, for medical workers, and help them rebuild the hospital system. Sixty percent of the hospitals have been destroyed in Syria, which means when youngsters are pulled out of rubble there's no-one to treat them. So we work on manageable targets in a context that, sure, is inducive to despair, but the fact that Hamas sees that it's had a measure of support from Egypt and might think about working with Egypt and not with Teheran, I think is encouraging and I think Israelis would see that as encouraging. The test now is to see that no militia group separate from Hamas gets out there and fires more of these wretched rockets into Israel because Israel, like any country, finds that intolerable and must respond.

Paul Kelly: How much is the Australian Government concerned about the plight of Christians in the Middle East?

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Bob Carr: I'm deeply concerned. The first phone call I made as foreign minister, coincidentally, was to our ambassador in Cairo to ask him to visit Coptic churches and monasteries and other institutions and give me a report. I raised with President Morsi, I said the Cops - I know the Coptic community in Australia I said they welcome your statement on protection for the Coptic community and he said - he's very humorous in a cunning and charming way, he said "Ah, there's always a but". And I said "Yes, but we do want the protection to continue". And he said "I am President for all Egyptians". We continue to keep the position of the Cops in Egypt under review but there is an Armenian community, I met a delegation of Armenians in Australia recently, they are fleeing Syria. They think as Christians they might be scapegoated when a new government emerges in that country at the end of the civil war. They're finding life there very difficult now, many have fled to Yerevan in Armenia. I'm concerned as well, I met a delegation in Parliament House from the Assyrian community, the Christian community in Iraq, also concerned about the pressures on them. I think it's a real matter of trepidation, the loss of Christian civilisation which has existed in these countries, Arab countries now for 2,000 years.

Paul Kelly: I'd like to ask you about Paul Keating, your former colleague of several decades. In the recent Keith Murdoch lecture he launched pretty much a broadside against the Rudd and Gillard Governments. He said that the era of Australian foreign policy activism was essentially over, which would seem to be a pretty direct criticism of yourself as foreign minister. What's your response to Mr Keating?

Bob Carr:

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Well, Paul and I have spoken about foreign policy for decades. When I turned up...

Paul Kelly: You obviously didn't persuade him.

Bob Carr: Look, he's - as I see it he's right in some respects, challenging us to think in different ways. In 1969 in Young Labor Paul Keating had me appointed chair of the foreign affairs committee of NSW Young Labor, so we've been talking foreign policy for a long time. I think one of his ideas that Australia should seek to join ASEAN is challenging but...

Paul Kelly: Do you endorse it?

Bob Carr: No, to be right before your time is to be wrong. The day may come, what as Willy Brandt once said, "What belongs together will come together". We don't want to go around like a mendicant knocking on doors, when ASEAN sees that as an organic growth in our relationship Australia and New Zealand will move into the organisation. But I just...

Paul Kelly:

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Is that an acceptable vision therefore for Australia?

Bob Carr: I judge it not timely and...

Paul Kelly: We're talking about vision. Do you think it's fair enough as a vision?

Bob Carr: It's fair enough as a vision.

Paul Kelly: You do?

Bob Carr: It's fair enough to be out there floating as an incentive but in the meantime the practical work is to be done on trade relations involving Australia, New Zealand and others with ASEAN and on the coordination of foreign policy. Like what I've done with Myanmar in being forward leaning, lifting not just suspending sanctions, the opening to Myanmar, which Myanmar has responded to very warmly, is an example of us finetuning foreign policy, taking the advice of ASEAN, even on nomenclature, using "Myanmar" instead of "Burma". It was Australia taking guidance from ASEAN.

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Peter van Onselen: What's wrong with modern Labor to advocate something before its time is to be wrong? This is meant to be a progressive political party of great vision.

Bob Carr: What I mean, Peter, is this: if I said today or the Prime Minister said we want to be in ASEAN the chances are we would be rebuffed and ASEAN would say "that doesn't fit our vision". The point is to work at it and work on trade, on foreign policy alignment, on consultation, so that when it happens it's an organic thing, a natural thing. They're not ready for it yet, we might be. You don't go out there and seek a rebuff, it's not the way you run foreign policy.

Peter van Onselen: Speaking of having to work on things, Paul Keating also thinks that Australia needs to work on its relationship with Indonesia. That's a fair comment, isn't it?

Bob Carr: No. I can't think of an extra button to be pushed or lever to be pulled on the Indonesian relationship. Our biggest concentration of diplomats in the world is Jakarta. We've had an exchange of a minister or a senior official coming down here or going up there on average every three weeks.

Paul Kelly:
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Minister, he was scathing about the relationship with Indonesia. He said ties with Indonesia had languished, he said there was no proper framework, he said there was no coherent policy. What's your response to this?

Bob Carr: Paul, that is not right, it is simply not right. Indonesia couldn't have a higher level of cooperation with Australia, Australia couldn't have a higher level of cooperation with Indonesia on counter-terrorism for example, something of interest to both of us, than we have at the present time. Police cooperation, Indonesia is the largest recipient of Australian aid and our aid program, unlike that of other countries flowing to Indonesia, is tailored to fit the President's priorities. Again, that level of exchange, senior officials and ministers, once every three weeks. Once every three weeks. Indonesia coming here or us going up there. There is now a level of consultation - the Prime Minister would not have a closer relationship with any head of government or head of state in the world than she has with the Indonesian President. After that very successful Darwin summit she, and I for that matter, were in Bali at President Yudhoyono's Bali Democracy Forum, just another confirmation of the effortless consultation we have built with Indonesia.

Paul Kelly: Let's talk about President Obama, he's been reelected. First overseas trip is to our region.

Bob Carr: Terrific.

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Paul Kelly: Do we see this as part of the US pivot to Asia? What do you think the second term will mean on the part of President Obama and our part of the world?

Bob Carr: First of all that visit was very, very important. It did confirm that President Obama is thinking Asia and it did confirm this administration more than any other, since the Vietnam War, is engaged with South-East Asia. It acknowledges the trajectory of economic growth, of improved social indicators that are the revolution of our time. Not just South-East Asia, of course, but East Asia. That's very satisfactory. The challenge would be were Secretary of State Clinton to give it away in this term - no-one wants her to stay in her job more than Australia - but were she to give it away in this term we would want a new Secretary of State to make his or her first visit to the region. I might as well put that on the record now. We think that would be a dramatic confirmation that with any change of personnel America is still focussed on the region to our north.

Peter van Onselen: How well placed is Australia to manage the delicate balancing act between our relationship with China on one hand and our relationship with the United States on the other, given that we may well be as, John Dauth, the former diplomat, has described this country, very crude in the way that we approach policy and debate.

Bob Carr:

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I think there's a lot of subtlety in Australian debate, and frankly us saying that we have a treaty relationship with the United States - the United States is more than that to us of course, it's the biggest source of foreign direct investment in Australia, but at the same time we've got an open foreign investment regime as concerns Chinese involvement in Australia. I think that's confirmation that Australia can work with both. What would be striking to the Chinese is that while they face crude resource nationalism and economic populism in other countries, their bids for investment here get judged on their merits. And only one Chinese investment has been knocked back and they would understand the reasons for that.

I suspect that the Chinese accept the sort of argument I've made, that just as they are entitled to modernise their military so we are entitled to look after our own defence and security by nurturing our treaty relationship with the United States.

Paul Kelly: What's your response to the point Peter raised about our outgoing High Commissioner in the UK, John Dauth, giving that interview yesterday attacking the quality of debate in this country, branding it as crude, saying that Australia was an intolerant country, we were 20 years behind the UK with reference to sexism and so on. What's your response as a senior politician and as foreign minister to that attack?

Bob Carr: I value anything John Dauth says, he's one of our finest diplomats and it's been an honour to work with him in my short time in this job. But I've just got a fundamentally different view of Australia. I think it's one of the breeziest most tolerant nations. Out where I live there was a march against violence against women and the local surf club

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was in it, local volunteer organisations were in it. I think same-sex relationships don't get a second glance these days. People accept diversity in the work force. Any instance of discrimination gets an angry response and race discrimination, the blended multicultural Australia that we know, I said during those demonstrations by sections of the Islamic community, their anger against that YouTube video, I said the violence you saw from 50 people doesn't come from the Muslim you go to school with, who you work with. I think we are of interest to the world. We won that security council vote for example because of our multiculturalism, our easygoing tolerance, stood out as an advertisement for this continent and its people.

Paul Kelly: Can I ask you about asylum seekers, because one of the arguments against Labor's tough asylum seeker policy is that this is damaging Australia around the world. We are seen as a racist intolerant country. You're travelling all the time, you're the foreign minister, is this raised with you, is it a problem?

Bob Carr: I've seen no evidence of that, I can say that hand on heart, and there are countries to our north which are tougher with irregular arrivals than Australia.

Peter van Onselen: Can I ask you one final question, Bob Carr, before we let you go, in this segment where we started on asylum seekers but on a slightly different issue, in terms of employment. Now, Chris Bowen has announced this idea of allowing asylum seekers now that the centres are full to be released into the community but they're not going to be allowed

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to work. You can't think that's a good idea, can you? That just creates welfare dependency or it creates a contribution to the taxless economy with cash-in-hand jobs.

Bob Carr: That's sending a message to the people smugglers and to those who might give them 10,000 bucks to come to this country that it won't work, you won't get here.

Peter van Onselen: But in a sense though if you're sending that message you're doing it at the expense of those very people that might be spending years in the community not being allowed to work, creating welfare dependency which they might take home or they might keep here, depending on where they end up. That can't be modern Labor's policy to deal with people in the community. Even TPVs under Howard allowed asylum seekers to work.

Bob Carr: Peter, I agree it's a tough message but it's a tough message that has got to be sent. As an Indonesian official warned me, he said desperate people look at Australia and they see that there is a relatively generous social security system by the standards of developing countries and therefore they're prepared to take the risk to get there. They reckon if they can get into employment in Australia in a short period, some months, they can pay all their bills and send money back home. It's again us saying to people smugglers, this ruthless but resilient industry, it won't work for you. It won't work for you.

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Peter van Onselen: Bob Carr, Foreign Minister, as always we appreciate you joining us on the program. Thanks for your time.

Bob Carr: My pleasure, good to be with you.

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