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I Am I Am I Am 02-04-2005, 02:55 AM #1 I Am I Am I Am This is a thread for all I AM's posts which had helped many members on OF. Pls use the search for I AM posts and quote it here. Quote: I will start by saying that I mean no disrespect to any. I have said before that if one truly has capability they do not have to advertise it. I stand by that statement. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 Many of us have experiences and show capabilities that are outside of normal reality. The above post does a good job of demonstrating that. So have others in this topic. And I commend those who stood up and answered with positive answers in this topic. As one grows in Magick something becomes clear. We have nothing to prove. Our Magick is ours, it does not belong to others nor does it have to pass their approval to be real. There are some out there that say if they cannot replicate our Magick then it is not real. To them I would say that the laws of science and the laws of Magick do NOT coincide. We cannot compare the two with each other. I could easily tell them to replicate a star going super nova...they cannot. They can only observe the effects of a star going super nova. The same is often true in Magick. If one truly has the power of magick then others WILL know without being told. It will come through in their words, their actions, and their Magickal practice. What others believe about my Magick is unimportant. It is what I KNOW that is important. Those who boast the loudest about their capabilities are often misleading others for their own purposes. That does not include posts in this topic. We have all seen the member who posts that they are the greatest witch, magickian, etc in the world. They challenge others to "Mortal Combat". They want to make others prove they are wrong. I could care less. Their words demonstrate their real power. If they have real power then why the need to challenge others? Why the need to tell us how powerful they are? Power is evident. It does not have to be bragged about. It SHOWS. No amount of words can change the truth. So, we must not allow words to sway our opinions. This is important. Instead we should look at the real knowledge that is shared. If rituals are provided, do they work? If statements are made, are they backed up? Does the person saying it actually practice magick?

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When a person starts off by saying that they have been studying for 20 or 30 years, and therefore we should KNOW that they know what they are talking about, we should immediately become suspect. Why do they feel they need to tell us that? Why do they feel they need to tell you they are credible? Their words should do that shouldn't they? Many educated people are ignorant. We have all met people like that. The same is true in Magick. It does NOT make any difference how long one has studied. It is what one has LEARNED that is important. It is what one can APPLY and CONTROL that is important. Don't you think? I am a Magickian. I am growing. I am comfortable with where I am and where I am going in my growth. I have no need to prove myself to others nor do I care what others think. In the end, my Magick will be my judge. Humbly, I AM

Quote: As a short answer, no ceremony is NOT necessary. However, when working with CM it is VERY advisable especially in the early years of practice. Many of the Entities that we call are too dangerous for us to handle without protection. That is part of what ritual is for. To protect us as we grow. Notice that I said that is PART of what ritual is for. Ritual also develops within the Magickian, in a structured methodology, personal power. AS this power grows so does the True Magickal capability of the Magickian. To explain, when we summon we often use the Magickal capabilities of the Entity we are summoning to achieve our ends. As we grow the need for external Entities diminishes. We can achieve our desires DIRECTLY. However, to get to this point SIGNIFICANT growth has to occur. The RAW power of the Entities is also OUR power once we learn to master it. That is part of what summoning is all about. I DO NOT recommend that beginning magickians pursue this line of thought if summoning entities. When you are ready you will know. I do not mean to sound arrogant in any way. However this is the answer to your question based on my experience. Humbly, I AM

Quote: I want to caution that the symbolism of CM as well as the rituals ARE important and NOT FLUFF. In martial arts, you must learn to crawl and walk before you can run and it takes years to truly master the art. It is the same in Ceremonial Magick. In fact, it is the same in ALL Magick. I have stated before in my BH posts (Before Hacking) that Ritual was the vehicle not the destination. However, it is an important vehicle that should not be arbitrarily discarded. While there are many paths to Magick, the CM path DOES NOT only unlock personal power but also promotes personal growth as well. The methodology of CM assists us in exploring ourselves in a direct way very deeply and allows us to gain control over facets of ourselves that we would be unable to access directly in any other way. This is difficult for me to put into words but I will try. I liken CM to climbing a ladder. In the first few steps of the ladder we realize we are aware of more and can see more and most of us realize that the ladder is very high. As we progress up the steps of the ladder more of the REAL world becomes known to us and USABLE to us. What was scary and perhaps unsafe we have now mastered and have control over. However, in my experience, there is no top to the ladder. Our progression up the ladder enables us to experience things that we could not even dream of while on the lower steps of the ladder. The higher we climb the more we realize that the lower steps were unimportant BUT NECESSARY TO GET TO WHERE WE ARE. The higher we climb the more we understand that the Universe is VAST and the wonders of that Universe are without words. We are able to experience what others have to share as well as see the World for what it really is. There is no end to growth...only new beginnings. There is no top, there is only more. I do not think that any, in one lifetime, can hope to see and learn all that there is to know. Can we do magick without ritual or methodology? Certainly. Should we? I do not think so. The very methodology of Magick, in ANY PATH, is necessary to fully experience the wonders

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that await us. There comes a time when the Magickian no longer needs ritual. That is because the Magickian fully understands the methodology and has climbed high enough up the ladder to truly understand the Magick that is being practiced. In a sense the Magick has become the Ritual and its reverse is true as well. At each step of the ladder As Above, So Below and As Within, So Without is true. AT EACH STEP. And, like any ladder, at each step it is possible to fall. In order to the Magickian to perceive the WITHOUT at each step the Magickian has to have grown WITHIN to enable this perception. The vibration within has to equal the vibration without before what is there can be perceived. This is true in ALL true Magick but especially true in CM. This single SIMPLE truth is also the most important truth. The Vibration Within has to Equal the Vibration Without in order for perception to occur. All of these steps are valuable as well as necessary. This has been my experience. How one climbs them are up to the Magickian. However, failure to climb the steps leads to falls. Failure to climb hides the Universe from the Magickian. Humbly, I AM

Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Kuroyagi so called result orientated magic is never very powerful. every ceremonies highest goal must be ceremony itself- whether its self created or copied doesnt matter- one should try to stick to it and practice. it is really helpful to consider every ritual (not only LBRP etc)- and again every "part" or gesture and name etc therein- as the whole, as one action (and in that moment- restrospectively speaking- the ONLY action there is in all creation- so that it could be considered sacrilegious to the highest degree to "impede" or to "load" this act w any other purpose than itself) because to an extent the practice of it is all there is to be learned from it. its really very difficult to explain but for "theories" sake one could say that it teaches what it means "to act"- and only for the sake of ppl who dont practice it, it could be said that by this utmost self sufficient practice of a ritual a way to a mindset(?) is created that makes one "sth more true or efficient"- some time after starting this practice you will do things that you just couldnt (actually only: DIDNT) do before (eg like silencing someone who has pestered you for years w only ONE stare in a single second and affect him in a way so that he will never bother you again (while still being friends w you): now this example could be also considered as a magical act and could be reached w eg sigil magic- and though no thing is better or worse all cumbersome actions that are not only exclusively themselves could be seen as deviating or dispersing (in most paradigms: dispersing your "will"). now all forms of actions and all forms of being are equally important (or not)the evryday life in the 2nd paragraph and the ceremony itself in the first are the same. so this relativates all I said above beginning w my claim that "result orientated magic is never very powerful", but "to start" it can be helpful to not consider the ceremonies as having any purpose other than (in) themselves. maybe there only can be result orientated magic- but does life have a purpose? does the universe have a purpose- other than itself? this is the paradigm of the western ceremonial magickian- and its not stupid at all ps strangely enough I completely understand what I AM is trying to say though I contradicted him- or seemed to do- while I think its the same and only the words are different (a damn funny "argument" when being of another opinion from your opposite btw but in this case I really mean it)

Frater Manjet and I were having a discussion the other day about what you bring up. Frater reminded me that Aleister Crowley cautioned against "Lusting after the Result" and indicated it took away from the workings. In truth, the result is NOT the Magick. Meditate on this. Kuroyagi has said it very well... results oriented Magick are not what we should be striving for. The result is not the goal, it is a by-product. Humbly, I AM

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02-04-2005, 03:08 AM

#2

Kinjo
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Quote: Originally Posted by Caradoc Hey I AM Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 I know everything's hectic at the moment trying to get up and running again but when you get a few minutes could you post something on the personal relationship with archangels theme? No rush. I just thought I'd remind you as you could easily forget with all the crap that's been going on. PS... hope this didn't sound pushy or critical, it wasn't meant to. PPS.. Thanks for recovering this Kinjo, it was a good topic

I am glad you have reminded me Caradoc! Today I would probably recommend the LIRP to facilitate conversation with the Arch Angels. This would be a prudent approach and one that would be accepted by many Magickians. However, this is NOT how I did it. Years ago I had finished the LBRP and was meditating on the Arch Angels and the role they played in the LBRP. As my thoughts revolved around these entities I wondered if I could contact them directly. Please remember that this was years ago and I was in a place that was in the middle of the Bible belt. There were no occult bookstores and no other Magickians that I was aware of. So after giving thought to how I would contact the Arch Angel of my choice I decided on the following. After performing the LBRP I focused my INTENT on Gabriel and told him that I wanted a direct conversation with him. I told him I wanted to know him and asked for him to provide me with guidance on how best to contact and converse with him. I told him I wanted to have a personal relationship with him. I did this every day for about a week and enflamed myself each time I asked. He answered. I will not share what he answered but he DID answer. And he has continued to answer ever since. And, in truth, he actually answered me the first time even though I was too dense to realize it. Each Magickian needs to choose what works for them. The only advice I will give is to NOT make it too complicated. I hope this helps Humbly, I AM

I have been following this Topic with interest since it was first introduced. First I will say that Caradoc and Tzimtzum have made excellent posts IMO. Others have made great posts as well.

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From my standpoint I think that many Magickians are too awestruck by the Arch Angels and thus miss a great opportunity. They are CERTAINLY impressive beings (Not constructs of the mind; BEINGS). However, IMO the Magickian should also focus on having a PERSONAL relationship with the Arch Angels. I have had a very strong relationship with both Gabriel and Michael. Both have always appeared to me as male. I have seen them in their "Blinding" aspect as well as their more personal aspect. ON MY REQUEST they have kept their forms those that I can relate to the easiest. These are forms THEY presented to me not ones I made up for them. Both have been there for me when I needed them. They, especially Gabriel, were some of my first teachers. They introduced me to many others. They showed me the Astral and gave me my first tools. They taught me how to protect myself in my early years. In the LBRP they serve a specific purpose that has already been discussed. Outside the LBRP they can be MUCH MORE if the Magickian will open their eyes and take advantage of what they have to offer. Be awestruck certainly. Then get over it and approach them as teachers. Over time they can become true allies. To gain this experience one has only to open themselves up to them. Ask and you shall receive... Time and time again I have seen that Magickians are often too timid when dealing with other Entities. They view the entities as being unapproachable much as a young teenager sometimes sees the gorgeous object of their desire being unattainable. Just ask. Take that first step courageously. You might be surprised at the results. They may not answer immediately but they might surprise you. This advice applies to Gods, Arch Angels, and any other entity that you encounter either accidently or by specific intent. And yes, take the normal precautions and protect yourself. They will respect that even if they sometimes find it humorous. This has been my experience. I hope this helps. Humbly, I AM Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by David Bowie I have heard a few of the 'new breed' authors mention that one does not need to construct a magick circle, just a good imagination and a dash of faith. However I remain sceptical as to what the results of such a operation may be, afterall, in their eyes I am an 'armchair theorist.' Yours, db

Hey David Bowie! While what you say is close to the truth I do NOT recommend that beginning Magickians use this approach. These entities are not gentle and mistakes can be disastrous. What you are refering to is, in actuality, "seeing" the Circle in the Astral. The Magickian visualizes "casting" a Circle either by doing the LBRP or some other method. This Circle exists in both the Astral and Physical. For experienced Magickians this works well. With the Goetics, unless the Magickian is able to HOLD the Circle, the magickian puts themselves at risk. The entities of the Goetia WILL test the Circle. See the Talking Points Topic - The Circle. A search should bring it up. This talks about what you suggest. Humbly, I AM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kinjo How do you accomplish this & how long? In another word to clarify my question further, what specifically do you MUST do to ENSURE that you have create a magick circle to defend yourself? Will LBRP accomplish that? Hey my friend! Well, drawing it on the ground allows a Magickian to see it but that does not mean that the Magickian KNOWS it is there. Many when first starting have doubts. The LBRP creates the Circle. When performed over time the Magickian WILL become aware of the Circle and all that the LBRP brings with it. Have patience and perform the LBRP at least once a day. Depending on the Magickian results will come...some sooner and some later. The key is not to give up or get discouraged. Humbly, I AM

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02-04-2005, 03:14 AM

#3

Kinjo
Member You cannot hope to understand a path of Magick by taking one part of it without reading and studying the rest. Quote: Originally Posted by BaronChronos here's a question: if you can't use the squares in book 3 of abramelin without being in contact with your HGA (re: kirk88's post), how did KCh's friend burn down his house by using the 23rd chapter? Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 I do not think anyone meant to imply that you could not use the Squares without being in contact with the HGA. However, it should NOT be done. When one concentrates on Sigils one empowers them. That is how the friend destroyed his house. Sigils of any kind are able to be empowered by the focus of the Magickian. That is why focusing on Goetic Sigils has gotten some in trouble. It is the same with any Sigil. Look at a Sigil as a circuit board waiting to be empowered. The way they are empowered is through the Focus of the Magickian. Humbly, I AM

Quote:

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As a further answer there are many Christians, including Ministers and Priests, who have and do Practice Ceremonial Magick without problems. In fact, being religious CAN be a plus as it may help the Magickian in finding their DIVINITY within. One can be religious or an Athiest and still practice Magick. In my experience, even if one starts out as an Athiest, Magick will over time make the person more spiritually aware. In fact, for some, Magick becomes a "Religion" all its own. Just a few thoughts. Humbly, I AM

Quote: Originally Posted by merlin as just using a dagger and do the spirit pentagram, and focus on enpowering my psychic abilities. Quote: The growth of Psychic abilities is a NATURAL part of the Magickian's magickal growth. However, they should not be the main goal. As the Magickian grows so do these "Psychic" abilities. After time one realizes these abilities can be a stumbling block to further growth. It is not the abilities that are important it is the growth. If a Magickian wants to develop Psychic abilities the best advice is for the Magickian to pursue Magickal growth. I hope this helps. Humbly, I AM

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02-04-2005, 03:16 AM

#4

Kinjo
Member Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Froclown What are these limitations you refer too? I think I have expanding magick beyond the primitive superstitions about external beings that exists in other diminsions and whatever else kind of fantasy worlds or things. I have increased human capability and I have done so by useof Occam's Razor, which is to say I have eleminated all unnecissary metaphysical entities. I have plenty of experince with evocation and invocation, and I realize how these beings seem very much real, but seeming is not the case. To the Psychotic it really does seem like he is recieving secret encoded messeges from Steven Hawking telepathically, that tell him he has to mow the lawn in his underwere, or else an eagal will peck out his eyes, no matter how real this seems to the the psychotic man, it is just not the case that Steven Hawking has sent out any such telepathy, nor that any eagals are waiting to swoop on this man. Even though he will scream and swear that they are watching from every tree and phone pole, and fight for his life is restrained from mowing the lawn, he is still not under attack or controled telepathically my anyone.

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Hell, When I invoked Yog Sothoth, all hell broke loose, the foundation of reality become nothing but goo, all physical reality my body included dissoleves into nothing and All mannor of deamon ran amuck in my psyche terring my mind to pieces, both wipsering and shouting deragatory thing in my mind. No coherency between any thing and any other thing. Yog is full of diversity and maddness, they deamons of Yog only seemed to have one thing in common, they all found falut in me, and didn't spare any remarks out of sympathy that's for sure. They don't just speak, they strike at the very heart. The mind divided, from itself aware of a billion universes all with seperate minds, some merging some dividing, there is no way back home, Which "me" will end up in what universe all universes merge like drops of water and seperate agains, no home to return to, to self to return home, only new universes and new selves mixed from the blood and water of the old. However, in the end, there is no Yog Sothoth, no matter how real and profound the effects of invoking him are on your mindstate. I didn't really percieve other universes, it was the contents of my own mind dissociating and re-arranging. We can't perceive our mind directly, thus when your mind is mixed up, we perceive reality as mixed up. When our minds generate Gods, we percieve Gods. The Gods are just tools to be used to re-arange the mind, which is to say to alter the soul and beyond the soul, the deepest aspects of the brain from which the soul or Self, is generated, as well as the perceptual universe or reality which corresponds to that soul or self. Change the world and you alter the self a little, Change the self a little and you create a whole new universe. 0=2 The 0 is our deepest brain before self is creates. The 2 is the world of self and the corresponding other. When self X is genrated so is Reality -X, is self Y is created then reality -Y is created. The universe is big and can only be changed slightly, thus only slight changes can be made to the self by acting in the world. The self is very small, so and chages made to the self creates a whole new reality, which is difficult to perceive, because often memory of the self changes to correspond to the changes in the universe. Thus, you insistence that these Beings are in the universe, not in yourself, tells me more about what kind of Self you are, rather than what really is the case in the universe. As what really is the case is that both self and other are illusions. The deepest mind remains undisturbed by any manifestations.

Insistence that these Beings are only WITHIN says much about the Self and its awareness of the Universe. While off topic I feel that the subject of the existence of the Gods must be addressed. Perhaps to some these beings are figments or our psyche awaiting release through some sort of ritual or mind altering drug. Beings, that are defined to be only internal, have only the capability to build a fantasy world. That is the world you describe. To others these Beings have the capability to teach us much about Magick, show us our true nature and it's true place in the Universe, and assist us in our growth. The BEINGS that I and other Magickians have dealt with have the capability to not only directly influence the REAL world but also open up other worlds (REAL WORLDS) to the Magickian. The Divinity Within that some claim is a figment is, in actuality, a powerful reality. It has nothing to do with God or religion. It has everything to do with that part of ourselves that rises above the human part. To some, apparently, the Astral is a dream reality. To others the Astral is a place where objects that exist in the world can be manipulated directly and the results of that manipulation made manifest in this physical world. To others the Astral, and its many levels, are a place of learning and growth. To others the Astral is the location of the Temple and where Magick is practiced. To others the Astral is as real as the physical world. It is your loss that the Astral you describe has the limits it does. If a Magickian perceives that what is summoned is only a part of their psyche then they miss an entire universe of experience. As Above, So Below is not just a saying. It is a truth that exists on many levels and in many realities. It is obvious that we disagree. However, to imply that anyone that KNOWS that these BEINGS really exist is psychotic (as you implied with your Hawkings example) is an attempt to IMPOSE a narrow interpretation on others. You are free to your beliefs and I wish you well. However, I suggest that the limits that you propose are not only incorrect but should NOT be adopted by others. Saying that these entities do not exist does not make them go away. While this is an interesting discussion for some it is also NOT on topic. Therefore, I suggest that further discussions take place in PM and not in this topic. Either that or that a new topic be created to discuss this. I am not attempting to have the last word. I am just stating my opinion that we have gotten off topic. We disagree. I can live with that. I hope you can as well. I AM
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02-04-2005, 03:19 AM

#5

Kinjo
Member The LBRP creates a protective Circle. I think this is what you meant to say. Proper performance of the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram (LBRP) automatically creates the protective Circle. I wish you luck in your endeavor. I would recommend that if you are going to summon this God that you EVOKE first. The power of many Gods is so great that the Magickian can actually be damaged by the influx of power unless they know how to re-direct it when it becomes too great. That is why I suggest EVOKING rather than INVOKING. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 If you are just going to pray to this God then summoning is unnecessary. I hope this helps. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-04-2005, 03:22 AM

#6

Kinjo
Member Quote:

Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java

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Posts: 466

Quote: Originally Posted by Frater Manjet

I will start by saying that I only use the passive pentagrams in the LBRP/LIRP. The nature of the element that ecompasses the whole of the ritual as opposed to the active pentagrams in the SBRP/SIRP, opening of ( and by ) Watchtower etc.. where each element is represented in it's own quarter by it's own active pentagram. Maybe it would help to think of them as passive = general and active = specific. Passive banishing pentagrams.. The traditional LBRP is most often taught using the earth pentagram. As you have noticed it is traced in all quarters irregardless of the elements attributed to them. If you consider that you are not using the element per se' merely the nature of the element this will help understand why. Think of the nature of the element as flavoring the whole ritual so to speak. The nature of earth is very resolving, strengthening, positioning etc... So when I use the earth pentagram I am flavoring my LBRP in this regard. The earth pentagram will strengthen, resolve etc.. your circle/aura especially with repeated use. If attention is paid to how earth as an element relates much more can be seen in it's application Now... what about the other passive pentagrams. The same holds true since they are passive they are used throughout the whole ritual in each quarter. So we can LBRP ( by earth ), LBRP ( by air ), LBRP ( by water ), LBRP ( by fire ). I will state that I beleive mastering LBRP by earth prior to exploring the other elements is very beneficial and will provide greater stability for later working. That being said let us explore breifly some possibilities of the other elements. If I am having a period where I find my mental faculties are a bit clouded, need to sharpen my wits or maybe I am preparing for a big test etc... I will employ LBRP/LIRP ( by air ). If I am struggling with an emotional issue or maybe I am blocked creatively on an art peice... I would employ LBRP/LIRP ( by water ). If I feel lethargic or too hyper etc... I will employ LBRP/LIRP ( by fire ). These are all very simplistic I know, but I think I have shown the basic concept. I use the various LBRPs depending on what aspect needs balance using the elemental models. I will not go into depth about the LIRP except that the elemental models apply in the same manner. .................................................. ............................. Now for more advanced magickians we can add implementation

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of various tools as well. I will not go into great depth here save to point to the further layering of meaning within the ritual by means of employing various tools. I think you will get the concept. The tools would represent the magickians direct influence in the whole ritual. The Fire Wand could be employed for a LBRP ( by air ), or the Water Cup could be employed for a LBRP ( by fire ).The possibilities are vast indeed. I hope this helps. "From Horizon to Horizon in VVV" Fr. Manjet

This was an awesome post Frater Manjet. I wish all would give as complete an answer in other topics as you have in this topic. The advanced techniques that Frater Manjet has shared are not commonly found in many discussions about the LBRP. However, they are not only effective but are critical for advanced workings. One can even combine more than two elements in the LBRP. As Frater Manjet indicated the possibilities are limited only by the imagination of the Magickian. I am going to add one more thing that will seem very cryptic to many. The Points of the Pentagram represent the Elements. The UNION of the Elements creates the Magickian. While this comment may seem a little off the topic of the LBRP it is truly not. Humbly, I AM Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Overflowed_Buffer Thank you so much for responding and helping. I just noticed this. Whoever posted this contradicts himself within the first few seconds. "ALL MAGICK OCCURS IN THE ASTRAL." Does this not go against the principle of "as above, so below?" Should magic not occur on both planes? Edit: Nevermind. I wish to learn but do not wish to have 5 people tell me their argument by using the word "because" and repeating the previous person. Edit: I do have to add however that I do not think that I can take this person seriously. He comes off as an armchair theorist to me, especially when you start saying "you are the circle" and using bubbles and what not. I guarantee that I, unless someone really blows my mind with some evidence that their idea is better, will use the normal circle that the great magiCians of the past have and progress with my knowledge.

Hey Overflowed_Buffer! No, it is not a contradiction. Magick occurs in the Astral before manifesting in the physical. This is a SIMPLIFIED explanation but suffices for this discussion. BTW, I am the person who wrote it so I felt it would be alright to respond. When one creates a physical Circle one is simultaneously creating an Astral Circle even if they do not realize it (As Below, So Above). If you created the Astral Circle first then As Above, So Below would indicate that the physical Circle exists as well. When we perform magickal ritual we are really performing this ritual in the Astral even if we are physically doing it. At the completion of our ritual our magick emanates through the Astral and MANIFESTS in the physical if we have done things properly AND we are strong enough. BTW, if you read my Talking Points - The Circle post carefully you will see that I DO use the Circle and NOT a bubble. So, your theory needs some work. However, there are many magickians that do use a bubble or sphere and that is why I included it. It matters little if you take me seriously. I am only sharing what my experience has shown me. You may take it or leave it. As far as being an "arm chair" theorist goes, I do find that comment amusing. I hope this helps. Humbly, I AM

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02-04-2005, 03:28 AM

#7

Kinjo
Member Quote: Originally Posted by Frater Manjet

I will not go into great depth here save to point to the further layering of meaning within the ritual by means of employing various tools. I think you will get the concept.
Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466

The tools would represent the magickians direct influence in the whole ritual. The Fire Wand could be employed for a LBRP ( by air ), or the Water Cup could be employed for a LBRP ( by fire ).The possibilities are vast indeed. I hope this helps. "From Horizon to Horizon in VVV" Fr. Manjet

Quote: Originally Posted by I AM ...I am going to add one more thing that will seem very cryptic to many. The Points of the Pentagram represent the Elements. The UNION of the Elements creates the Magickian. While this comment may seem a little off the topic of the LBRP it is truly not. Humbly, I AM

I fear I may have been a little too cryptic with my previous post so I wish to give my fellow Magickians something to contemplate. What would happen if a ritual that used the element of FIRE and combined it with the WATER CUP were to be FOCUSED through ANOTHER ELEMENT? What would happen if a ritual that used FOUR ELEMENTS were to be FOCUSED through the FIFTH ELEMENT? What would happen if a RITUAL contained ALL the ELEMENTS EQUALLY? These questions, when answered, open up an entire new world for the Magickian. Understand that it is INTENT that both focuses Elements through each other and allows them to be combined. Consider also that the UNION of all the Elements is also the BALANCE of all the Elements within the Magickian. From this UNION the Magickian is created. This UNION, once achieved, is the Magickian's to call at will. The LBRP is FAR more than a BANISHING ritual. Those who consider it only a Banishing Ritual are not worthy of it. This paraphrased from Aleister Crowley. Humbly, I AM Quote:

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Hey MuRdeR! While I am a little confused by your question I will attempt answer it. First, the LBRP creates the Circle so doing another LBRP while the Demon is breaking it is redundant. However, if you meant that you created a Circle in some other way and after the Demon broke the Circle then did the LBRP that might work but you will not have the time to do the ritual. Your analysis of the amount of time is correct and the entity will NOT give you the time to do the LBRP. In these cases you can fall back on the Grimoires. Fiat-lux-777 hit the nail on the head with his COMMAND "In the name of the most Holy God, I command you to depart and bother me no more!". This is in accordance with what some of the Grimoires suggest and it IS effective. The effective part of this is two-fold. First you are COMMANDING. Second, it is in the Name of God. This does not mean that you have to be religious...you do not. If you understand that YOU are a God and command in that fashion then the entity will respond. Additionally, if one understands that THEY are the Circle, then it cannot be broken. One should also understand that they are also the BANISHING. Visualize a Banishing wave going out from WITHIN you in all directions. See this wave as a solid force that removes ALL in its path. If you have seen pictures of a nuclear weapon going off and the blast wave that is created...your wave should look like this. This has been effective for me and may be for you as well. The suggestion of Armor works fine in the Astral but may NOT be as effective against a Goetic entity. At least this has been my experience. You can also take the approach that I took when I first started and things went wrong...I called to every God I had ever heard of and begged. Begging is good. A good Magickian is a humble one and needs to know when they are over their head. I hope some of this answer helps. Humbly, I AM

Things I hate: 1. Those who attempt to turn Magick into some kind of role playing game. http://www. occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=6881 This pisses me off because I take Magick SERIOUSLY. It is my life. 2. Those who PRETEND to have power and capabilities that they do not possess. They imply that they have great power. They say they are a MAGE. Yet they offer no proof and RARELY share anything of value. We have had more than a few like that in OF. 3. Those who cannot share what they know with others because the knowledge they have is too ARCANE for others not sufficiently advanced enough. While it is true that some things cannot be shared, that is different than saying that "I've got secrets but you are not ready to hear them". I have seen these type of posts here in the forum before and they always piss me off. These types of people RARELY have anything that is worth anything. 4. Those who judge the Magick of others or imply that their own Magick is superior to others. It is almost never true. If you have a good product you do not have to advertise it...it speaks for itself. 5. Those who feel they have the right to JUDGE the actions or Magick of others. They do not. 6. Those who would turn Magick into some "fluffy" reality while ignoring the evil that some do. The world of Magick is no different then this physical reality. There are some that are bad or evil and they need to be stopped. 7. People who come into these Forums just to create hate and discontent because of our practice or beliefs. Not only Christians have been guilty of this...but they have done it the most. 8. Those who assume Magick does not exist because they have never seen it in their lives and who then ATTACK others who do have Magick in their lives. This type of ignorance has also been prevalent in these Forums. May the Gods save us from ignorance such as this. 9. Those who ask for advice and then either flame or ignore those who respond. Attitudes such as this will not get them invited to Thangsgiving dinner. This may be the grossest ignorance of all. 10. Those who think that Magick is about "who is the baddest Magickian"? They want to turn Magick into a power struggle. They magickally attack upon the slightest excuse. These types are usually the weakest of all Magickians. 11. Those who try to increase their perceived POWER by associating themselves or trying to imply links with other Magickians that are respected for their capabilities. If one's self image relies on their association with others then they are in for great disappointment. They are ALWAYS found out in the end.

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Kinjo View Public Profile Send a private message to Kinjo Send email to Kinjo Visit Kinjo's homepage! Find More Posts by Kinjo Add Kinjo to Your Buddy List . . _____________________________ . . I know this was more than 10. However, as you can see I have pet peeves that no doubt reflect on my Karma. The above issues never fail to piss me off and most of the time I feel the need to respond. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-04-2005, 03:33 AM

#8

Kinjo
Member Hey Overflowed_Buffer! Let me try again but this time I will use examples. Let us say that a person is about to be sent away by his parents to a school that is far away from home...or sent to another geographic location...that will separate him from the girl that he loves. He does not want this to happen and turns to Ritual Magick to solve his problem. He decides to use the Goetia to achieve his aims. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 He states his intent to be as follows. "I desire that I NOT be sent to XXXXX so that I may continue my love life with my girlfriend". Ritual is performed and the following scenarios occur. 1. The magickian's parents are killed in a car accident and plans to send the magickian away are stopped. The Entity gave the magickian exactly what he asked for. 2. The magickian is in a car accident and becomes brain damaged, unable to care for himself, and therefore will not be sent away. The entity gave the magickian exactly what he asked for. 3. The magickian's parents go bankrupt and, thus, not longer have the money to send the magickian away. The entity gave the magickian exactly what he asked for. In all of these cases the magickian got what he asked for. In all cases the LAW of Unintended Consequences was invoked. In all cases the magickian got what they asked for but NOT what they wanted. If you think that I am exagerating I am not. I am being as serious as a heart attack. Been there. Done that. In this case the magickian focused on the WRONG INTENT. The true INTENT that should have been focused on was preventing separation from adversely affecting the love between the magickian and his girlfriend, OR making the love between the magickian and his girlfriend so strong that no event can break the two apart. In this case and ENTIRELY DIFFERENT group of Entities could assist. In this situation the stated intent would also be different. For example the Statement of INTENT could look something like this. "With no harm to any make our love so strong that no event in this physical reality can break us apart". You can imagine that the possible results of this INTENT would be different from the other stated INTENT. However, be careful what you ask for...you might get what you ask for. In this case the magickian's dream girl of today may be the horror of tomorrow. This is what I meant by being more specific in your INTENT. Decide what it is you REALLY want to accomplish. Determine what your STATEMENT of INTENT should be. Then determine and eliminate all possible unintended consequences. After you have done this THEN AND ONLY THEN should you determine which Entity would best serve your purposes. You should not limit your choice of Entities to the Goetia. There are many different Entities out there (Angels, etc) that can assist you. However, if you believe that Angels are somehow kinder or more forgiving then you will be deluding yourself. They are NOT. Their energies are just different and the method of action is different (although not much different).

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Now, I ask you again, please be specific in what it is you intend. Then we may be able to answer your question. Humbly, I AM Quote: In the Gospel of St. Thomas the Kingdom of God is all AROUND us. In the Bible it is said the Kingdom of God is WITHIN us. In organized religion it is in the Church.

Consider this. As Above, So Below. As WITHIN, so WITHOUT. In the Gospel of St. Thomas the Kingdom of God is all AROUND us. In the Bible it is said the Kingdom of God is WITHIN us. Consider these truths. If there is a God above then where is the God below? If there is a God WITHOUT then where is the God WITHIN? What do you really think is really being said?

The true name of God is "I AM THAT I AM". Have you looked in the mirror and said the name of God? And God created Man in his own image... However we all look different and have different genders. Which image was being referred to? God is both creator and destroyer. So are we. Believing in Jesus makes us adopted Sons and Daughters of God and Brothers and Sisters in Christ. What does that make us if Jesus or his true father was a God?

The list goes on and on but the same basic truth emerges in many places. The references cited above are just Christian references. These references exist throughout the world in the writings of mankind. Mankind has the capability to be a God if only they will open themselves to it. Our world teaches us just the opposite. The world, from our birth, teaches us our limitations. It tells us that we are less than God. It strips our birthright away. Finding the Divinity within has nothing to do with religion. As Above So Below DICTATES that if there is Divinity above there is also Divinity within. To find it one must open themselves to it. One must "Let the Spirit move through them". It is really simple. KNOW THAT YOU ARE DIVINE. Then look for it within. You will find this Divinity in the silences. Most of us are constantly thinking. This constant barrage of thought creates a lot of internal noise. This noise distracts us from what is within ourselves all along. As an experiment try thinking of NOTHING for 5 minutes. Every time a thought or visual enters your head remove it. When you first attempt to do this you will fail. Practice will soon get you to the point that you will no longer need to remove the thoughts or images and you will be able to do it for far longer than 30 minutes. Once you are accomplished you can do this all day. When you do it all day, you will still think but you will ONLY think about what is at hand and what faces you at that particular time. Wiping out the internal noise between actions is a huge step in the right direction. When you remove the noise you find the silence. When you find this silence then you can start looking for your divinity. KNOW that you are Divine and you will be. DOUBT that you are Divine and you will fail. This is not esoteric BS. Others have known this for years. The technique I have given you is just a shortcut. Now it is time to embrace it as your own. I hope this helps. Humbly, I AM

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#9

Kinjo

Member Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by fiat_lux_777 93 It may only be my perception, but I have always thought of the sephiroth as being both immanent and transcendant. Kether is not only "out there", it is also "in here". It is nowhere and everywhere, and not located in a particular place. Kether is the seed of perfection hidden beneath the layers of dross. Actions in the so-called "mundane world" (a misnomer, if ever there was IMHO) directly affect Kether both in a personal and transpersonal manner - as well as every other level of existence and consciousness. There is no division between magick and mundane, higher and lower, inner and outer. Such demarcations are arbitrary and subject to the perceptions of the observer. 93 93/93 Todd

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Although fiat_lux_777 said it very well I would like to add support to what is said here. "As Within, So Without". And its reverse is true as well. The same is true with "As Above So Below". These truths, like the layers of an onion, are true on many levels. Apply them to the sephiroth and some interesting truths emerge. It is interesting that fiat_lux_777 makes this quote Quote:

Quote: Actions in the so-called "mundane world" (a misnomer, if ever there was IMHO) directly affect Kether both in a personal and transpersonal manner - as well as every other level of existence and consciousness.

This is a direct example of "As Without, So Within". A change to our external world changes our internal world. And its reverse is true as well. As a gross example I give you the Optimist and the Pessimist. Both supposedly live in the same world but see two entirely different REALITIES. For them, their worlds ARE different. And each of their worlds becomes their prision. The secret is to step outside and Witness and Acknowledge that "As Within So Without" is truth. At that point, true change becomes possible. Humbly, I AM Quote:

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Kinjo View Public Profile Send a private message to Kinjo Send email to Kinjo Visit Kinjo's homepage! Find More Posts by Kinjo Add Kinjo to Your Buddy List Certainly the thought form comes first. However in my view the thought form is REAL and exists. Your assertion is that it exists in the mind alone. That is where I feel we differ. In my view, we cannot separate ourselves from the Above. Above and Below exist simultaneously in US. We walk in both worlds all the time. Only most never realise this reality. You appear to percieve Above and Below as a duality. I view Above and Below as two sides of the same coin with no duality. If one is FULLY Above and Below simultaneously then their thoughts ARE action and ARE manifested. The Magickian's word of Power is the outward sign of this. This is a heavy subject and one difficult to put into words. I am having an even harder time than normal due to some meds I am taking. I hope what I have said makes sense. Humbly, I AM Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Specktackular Sure, but from your magickal point of view does this make sense to you: In magick, nothing can occur without first occurring as a thought; once the thought occurs, the rest follows. ???

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02-04-2005, 03:41 AM

#10

Kinjo
Member Hey my friend! I believe the technique you are looking for is an upside down pentagram. This was an old "crafter's" (not to be confused with WICCAN) technique for keeping unwanted visitors from entering their homes while they were away or protecting them while inside their homes. I read about this years ago in a book about Witchcraft and Magick. The technique involves casting an upside down pentagram at the entrances to the property or house. The pentagram was bright blue / white and was cast at EACH entrance to the place to be protected. No ritual words were necessary. I used this for years with success. In Hawaii, while in the military, I used to have to travel around the world often. I averaged being away from my house about 2 weeks out of every month. Each time I left I would cast these pentagrams. During my stay in Hawaii many houses on my street were broken into and robbed. Most of the time this occurred while the owners were away. My house was never bothered. Now, this begs a few questions. Was it the pentagram that protected the house, was it my INTENT used while casting the pentagram, or was it a combination of both? Or was my house never the intended target anyway? I am not certain. However it did work and that is all that mattered at the time (this was when I was 30).

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fiat_lux_777's Circle technique has also worked for me. I used to cast a circle big enough to encompass the house. Now, I use entities or servitors to accomplish the same purpose. Wards have also worked for me in the past with great success. I hope this answer helps and provides you the answer you were seeking. Humbly, I AM Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Specktackular The above and the within are both MENTAL, the below and without are both PHYSICAL...... ....The two planes of MENTAL and PHYSICAL and all that is encompassed by these two planes are not illusion, they are the fundamental framework we call "reality." This encompasses all possibilities which can manifest. What I have been trying to explain is that this is what is not an illusion and can not be changed.

Hey Specktackular! By definition the mind is of the PHYSICAL. That goes for the MENTAL too! If the mind and the mental were truly that powerful then EVERY thought would manifest into this physical reality and that simply does not happen. This does not imply that thoughts are not real...they are. It is not until the magickian walks in both the Physical and Astral simultaneously that the mind and the mental becomes something more. At that point thoughts DO manifest into both worlds. Magick does not occur in the Below or the Above. It occurs when Above and Below become ONE and mirror each other. This subtle truth is discovered through practice and also in the writings of some magickians. The duality that some want to give Above and Below is a mistake. They are two sides of the same coin...one does not exist without the other and it is only by joining the two that Magick becomes known. Things that may make sense on paper or in theory do not hold up in the Magickal world. This has been my experience and others are free to disagree. Humbly, I AM

Since we are discussing True Will and it was Crowley who first identified the term I thought the following Theorems from Crowley would assist in the conversation. I think Crowley is clear about the relationship of True Will and Individual Will in a person's life. III) THEOREMS. Magick in Theory and Practice by Aleister Crowley 4. The first requisite for causing any change is thorough qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions. (Illustration: The most common cause of failure in life is ignorance of ones own True Will, or of the means to fulfill that Will. A man may fancy himself a painter, and waste his life trying to become one; or he may really be a painter, and yet fail to understand and to measure the difficulties peculiar to that career.) 8. A Man whose conscious will is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently. (Illustration: When Civil War rages in a nation, it is in no condition to undertake the invasion of other countries. A man with cancer employs his nourishment alike to his own use and to that of the enemy which is part of himself. He soon fails to resist the pressure of his environment. In practical life, a man who is doing what his conscience tells him to be wrong will do it very clumsily. At first!) 9. A Man who is doing his True Will has the inertia of the Universe to assist him. (Illustration: The first principle of success in evolution is that the individual should be true to his own nature, and at the same time adapt himself to his environment.) 14. Man is capable of being, and using, anything which he perceives, for everything which he perceives is in a certain sense a part of his being. He may thus subjugate the whole of the Universe of which he is conscious to his individual Will. (Illustration: Man has used the idea of God to dictate his personal conduct, to obtain power over his fellows, to excuse his crimes, and for innumerable other purposes, including that of realizing himself

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as God. He has used the irrational and unreal conceptions of mathematics to help him in the construction of mechanical devices. He has used his moral force to influence the actions even of wild animals. He has employed poetic genius for political purposes.) 24. Every man has an indefeasible right to be what he is. (Illustration: To insist that any one else should comply with ones own standards is to outrage, not only him, but oneself, since both parties are equally born of necessity.) 25. Every man must do Magick each time he acts or even thinks, since a thought is an internal act whose influence ultimately affects action, though it may not do so at the time. (Illustration: The least gesture causes a change in a mans own body and in the air around him; it disturbs the balance of the entire Universe, and its effects continue eternally throughout all space. Every thought, however swiftly suppressed, has its effect on the mind. It stands as one of the causes of every subsequent thought, and tends to influence every subsequent action. A golfer may lose a few yards on his drive, a few more with his second and third, he may lie on the green six bare inches too far from the hole, but the net result of these trifling mishaps is the difference between halving and losing the hole.) 26. Every man has a right, the right of self preservation, to fulfill himself to the utmost. Men of criminal nature are simply at issue with their true Wills. The murderer has the Will to Live; and his will to murder is a false will at variance with his true Will, since he risks death at the hands of Society by obeying his criminal impulse. (Illustration: A function imperfectly performed injures, not only itself, but everything associated with it. If the heart is afraid to beat for fear of disturbing the liver, the liver is starved for blood and avenges itself on the heart by upsetting digestion, which disorders respiration, on which cardiac welfare depends.) 28. Every man has a right to fulfill his own will without being afraid that it may interfere with that of others; for if he is in his proper place, it is the fault of others if they interfere with him. (Illustration: If a man like Napoleon were actually appointed by destiny to control Europe, he should not be blamed for exercising his rights. To oppose him would be an error. Any one so doing would have made a mistake as to his own destiny, except insofar as it mught be necessary for him to learn the lessons of defeat. The sun moves in space without interference. the order of nature provides an orbit for each star. A clash proves that one or the other has strayed from its course. But as to each man that keeps his true course, the more firmly he acts, the less likely others are to get in his way. His example will helpthem to find their own paths and pursue them. Every man that becomes a Magician helps others to do likewise. The more firmly and surely men move, and the more such action is accepted as the standard of morality, the less will conflict and confusion hamper humanity.)

Submitted by I AM __________________

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02-04-2005, 03:42 AM

#11

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Kinjo
Member I am going to answer this question by sharing my experience not only with Sigils but also with Talismans, Wards, and Amulets. The techniques and insights that I share have been developed with actual experience. Since I am discussing multiple items I will provide MY definition for each. 1. Sigils. A statement, in the form of a symbol, of a specific Magickal INTENT empowered by the Magickian. 2. Amulet. An item WORN (almost always a necklace) that is a statement, in the form of a symbol or multiple symbols, of a specific Magickal INTENT empowered by the Magickian. 3. Talisman. An item CARRIED OR OWNED that is a statement, in the form of a symbol or multiple symbols, of Magickal INTENT empowered by the Magickian. 4. Ward. A written group of symbols or Astral CASTING that is a statement, in the form of a symbol or multiple symbols, of a specific Magickal INTENT empowered by the Magickian. With all of these items, once empowered, always empowered. More on this later. First, I have found that the terms Wards, Talismans and Amulets can and should be used in the same breath as Sigils. It has been my learning that they are ALL SIMILAR just used in different ways and that the methods of construction and empowerment are also similar. In each of these their creation is usually to accomplish a singular intent and their method of action is actually almost identical. Second, I think that when constructing Wards, Talismans, Sigils, or Amulets we need to understand that we are actually constructing "Circuit Boards". These Circuit Boards follow certain design principles and the mere fact that they are PERSONALLY created by the Magickian gives them power. However, they also need to be EMPOWERED to be most effective. This empowerment is usually a PERSONAL Magickal empowerment performed by the Magickian but can also involve outside forces.

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As a continuation of the above statement, a Magickian can also ask an Entity to empower the Ward, Talisman, Sigil, or Amulets with GREAT EFFECT. Creations that are empowered in this way often are VERY powerful and this technique is very effective for Magickians when they are new to the path. It is CRITICAL that the Entity chosen for this work correspond with the INTENT of the Ward, Talisman, Sigil, or Amulet. As a very BASE example, you do not want to use a Lunar associated Entity to empower a Solar working UNLESS that is a specific intent of your working. The reason this is critical is because the Magickian, at some level, UNDERSTANDS that these Entities have different aspects and correspondences and many times they conflict with each other. It is also important to understand that the finished working contains the empowerment of BOTH the Entity and the Magickian. Third, the design of the Sigil, Ward, Amulet, or Talisman is meaningless unless empowered. If a Magickian understands the Magick behind the creation of these magickal items then that Magickian also understands that the chosen design is only a reflection of the Magickian's INTENT. To put it in simpler terms, a Sigil can be a straight line and that same identical straight line could be used in multiple Sigils. It is not the design, it is the EMPOWERED INTENT that is at work in a Sigil, Amulet, Ward, or Talisman. The mere fact that the Sigil is hand drawn provides it with some personal power. When we meditate on a Sigil we are also providing it with personal power. When we focus SPECIFIC INTENT on a Sigil we are providing it with the Magickian's Magickal creative power. In each of these actions a Magickian's INTENT is being focused on the Sigil and through this act, empowering the Sigil. However, to create a truly effective Sigil much more is needed. The reason that most Magickians use different designs for their working is to SEPERATE their INTENT from one design to the next. If one used a straight line for all their Sigils and were unable to COMPLETELY remove previous intents from the working then the working would be corrupted. It is this inability to remove previous intent that forces many Magickians to create different designs for different purposes. The method used to derive the design of the Sigil or the Sigil generator used is, for this reason, unimportant except that it assists the Magickian in the separation of INTENT. Our Circuit Boards are generally more powerful if we add more levels of empowerment. Sigils, Wards, Talismans and Amulets that are empowered multiple times, OVER time, are more powerful than those that are just charged once. Each level of empowerment MUST compliment the other levels and each level of empowerment MUST flow into the next without breaks in effect or intent. The circuit must flow without obstruction. As an example, you would not want to have one level promote healing, the next wealth, and the next healing. The energies and YOUR INTENT must flow without deviation. In this way the Magickian is able to construct the most effective Ward, Talisman, Sigil, or Amulet. How does this correspond to the Chaos method of charging and then forgetting the act? Well, it probably does not directly, but it does indirectly. I have never found that forgetting the act was necessary or important. In fact, reinforcing the act by multiple chargings increases the power of the

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working in my experience. That said, it IS important to KNOW that the working will be effective as this removes doubt. It is this removal of doubt that I think is at the root of the Chaotic Magickian's forgetting. If one does not think about it then they will not have the opportunity to doubt. Using Planetary time correspondences also adds a level of empowerment although, in my experience, this is not as critical. If you are going to use Planetary correspondences then you MUST ensure that the correspondence compliments the working. What the Magickian should understand is that by using Planetary correspondences they are actually adding another level of EMPOWERMENT AND INTENT to the working. Any correspondences that relate to the working at hand and that are added to the working adds to the EFFECTIVENESS OF THE FOCUSED INTENT. Again, this is my experience and my understanding. Others may see this point differently. One thing I never see being discussed when I see discussions of Sigils is the combining of Sigils to create even more complicated circuits. It seems that all the Sigil discussions revolve around a SINGLE intent. However, this limits the Magickian and the Magickian should understand that more is sometimes MUCH better. Placing more than one Sigil in the Ward, Talisman, or Amulet can multiply the effects of a single Sigil and can make the "WHOLE more than the SUM of its parts". I have done this for years and have had it reinforced even more in the last year. As an example, using one Sigil for healing, another for pain relief, another for an analgesic, and another to energize the other Sigils all in one Talisman, Ward, or Amulet. This is the method used in many effective Wards, Talismans, and Amulets. However, over time, it seems that commercialism has lost this truth in most cases. While on the subject of commercialism, can a Magickian buy a Sigil, Talisman, or Amulet and have it be as effective as one created by a Magickian? While possible, this is beyond many Magickians. The commercial process leaves out the Thought Form and INTENT that is so important to the working. While the finished product CAN be empowered by a Magickian it is most likely going to be less effective. This is what I know, but others may see it differently. Something else I never see being discussed are time limits. There are NO TIME LIMITS on Sigils, Wards, Talismans, or Amulets unless the Magickian puts one on them during construction. Let me repeat that in a different way. There is NO TIME LIMIT except that of the Magickian's own power. The Magickian MUST understand this. These circuits have been known to last for thousands of years and still be effective. An example of this would be the "mummy's curse" where every member of the expedition that opened the tomb died, some under bizarre circumstances, within a short time period of opening the tomb. Knowing this, the Magickian MUST take into account the "Law of Unintended Consequences". Either that or destroy the creation when done with it. This applies to Sigils and especially applies to Talismans, Amulets, and Wards. Always set time limits. Others will sleep easier if you do. Finally, the Magickian, either through inflaming themselves or through Ritual should strive to put their ENTIRE Focus, INTENT, and energy into the working while creating Wards, Sigils, Talismans, or Amulets. If successful, the Magickian can see the results of their workings in the Astral and they will see the empowerment of the working visibly. As with any other Ritual, the Magickian should banish both before and after the working. This not only removes corrupting influences during the operation but also removes unwanted energies after the working is complete. When creating a Sigil, Talisman, Amulet, or Ward we first start with our Thought Form which is that which we desire to accomplish. Using our INTENT the Thought Form takes shape by creating what we desire to accomplish in the form of the design of our working. Once the design is created, we empower our working by focusing our WILL through our INTENT either by using our power alone or by also drawing on the power of other forces. If all is done properly our INTENT manifests in the Astral and correspondingly in the Physical. As Above, So Below. One equals the other. I hope this post proves helpful. Members who read this post are free to experiment with what I say. I am confident their experiments will validate my statements. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-04-2005, 03:47 AM

#12

Kinjo
Member Quote: Originally Posted by Grab

Indeed excellent. Thank you, I AM. There is only a little technical question. When doing the banishing, how do I protect the sigil/talisman/etc, so that I do not banish away all the power from it?
Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 While this may seem to be a "little" technical question it is not. It is not even just one question! However I will address the questions and answer them based on my own experience. My response will run counter to what others have said or practice and for that I apologize and say that I mean no disrespect to any path or the beliefs of that path. The questions that I gather from this little technical question are as follows. Does wrapping a Magickal Item in protective cloth protect the Item from the Banishing? 1. Does Banishing effect the Magickal Item? 2. Does the Magickian have to be in the same location as the Sigil, Talisman, Amulet, or Ward in order to empower it? 1. Does wrapping a Magickal Item in protective cloth protect the Item from the Banishing? I will answer this by first asking a few questions. Are our Banishings so weak that they cannot penetrate cloth? Does cloth prevent effective Banishing? Does a Magickian have to be naked in order for a Banishing to be effective? The answer to all these questions is NO. I have read in many books and seen posts in this forum that say that wrapping a Magickal Item in Silk will protect it. However, if we really look at this statement we can see that it is false. If cloth could counter the effects of Banishing then the LBRP would NEVER work if someone wore clothing. However, we know that it does don't we? And, if Magick were so weak that it could not penetrate some protective cloth then the entire underlying framework of Magick would be called into question. Magick is without limits. But if cloth could prevent our Magick from being effective then Magick WOULD have limits wouldn't it? Therefore it cannot be true. When a Magickian wraps a Magickal Item in protective cloth it is done with reverence and the intent to protect it. It is the Magickian''s Will that it be protected. Put another way, it is the Magickian's INTENT and WILL that it be protected. What is at work here has nothing to do with the cloth. What is at work here is the Magickian's INTENT and WILL. If the Magickian INTENDS that the Item be protected and Wills it then the Item will be protected.

I've read that only silk would protect it, but other sources say cotton is fine. Myself, I'm thinking that my intent of banishing everything except the sigil might be enough, however, that might be optimistic. The banishing rituals ARE powerful. /Grab

Quote: Originally Posted by Grab Myself, I'm thinking that my intent of banishing everything except the sigil might be enough, however, that might be optimistic
Wrap the Magickal Item in old newspaper, put it in a sock, or just leave it uncovered. It is the Magickian's INTENT and WILL that protects the Item. So all that is necessary is that the Magickian INTEND for the Item to be protected during Banishing and WILL it and it will be.

2. Does Banishing effect the Magickal Item? While addressed in the above reply I will discuss TOOLS here in this comment. The TOOLS of the Magickian are just that, TOOLS. They represent the FOCUS of the Magickian. Their symbolic meaning assists in FOCUSING the Magickian's INTENT for the working. As such, they are an EXTENSION of the Magickian. Can a Magickian Banish themselves? Of course not. Nor can they Banish the power of their Magickal Weapons unless that is their desire. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with wrapping them in protective cloth as it assists the Magickian in focusing their INTENT and WILL on protecting the Magickal Weapon. It is important for us to remember what we are trying to accomplish when we Banish. We rid our environment of UNWANTED energies. Our INTENTand WILL is enough to protect those Magickal energies that we want to remain. However, we must INTEND

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and WILL for this protection to happen.

3. Does the Magickian have to be in the same location as the Sigil, Talisman, Amulet, or Ward in order to empower it? I will again ask a few questions to illustrate my point. Is our Magick so weak that it only works within the Magickal Circle? Can the effects of our Magick ONLY occur within the Circle? Is our Magick ineffective outside the Circle? The answer to these questions is NO. Magick is not affected by time or distance. Nor are its boundaries limited by this physical world. A Sigil can be on the other side of the world or in the Astral and still be empowered by the Magickian. The same is true for ANY working. We already know this to be true because many of our Magickal workings are meant to manifest in the world around us.. A Magickian's INTENT and WILL is not limited by distance nor is the Magickian's POWER. The object to be empowered can be thousands of miles away or in the Astral and still be empowered without loss of effectiveness. A Ward can be cast at ANY location, physical or astral, all through the WILL of the Magickian.

Now Magickians, being by nature curious and wanting to prove things for themselves, are going to read this and desire to test it. I challenge that what I have said be tested. I am confident that Magickian's who test my words will validate them. Humbly, I AM I will also add that I use INTENT and WILL as two separate terms in the above post. In my practice my INTENT and WILL are the same. If I INTEND it is also my Magickal WILL to do so. I focus my Magickal Will and my Intent is my Will. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-04-2005, 03:51 AM

#13

Kinjo
Member First I love for others to share their experiences with the members of this forum. Thank you endor957 for taking the time to share this with us. I will have to agree with Master of The Abyss's post. One should always give a dealline for the operation. While it is true that the Goetics do not have the same concept of time that we do, they DO understand OUR concept of time. In my experience they will adhere to deadlines as long as the Magickian imposes them. If, for some reason, they feel the timeline is too aggressive they will tell you and then you can discuss alternatives. This is my experience. Humbly, I AM Quote:

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Sharing knowledge and resources in this Forum is a step in the right direction. So is freely helping others with Magick. I have posted before that I think that we, as Magickians, owe the next generation as much of our knowledge and techniques as we can pass on. A living Grimoire. I feel strongly about this. Humbly, I AM

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02-04-2005, 03:53 AM

#14

Kinjo
Member

Solar Grounding Ritual


Visualize yourself as growing very large...huge. Grow until you can put one foot on the Sun and the other on the Earth. Size DOES matter! If you can see yourself bigger than the Galaxies that is even better. See yourself in the darkness of space with your feet on the two worlds. Draw up power from the Sun into yourself and re-direct it into the Earth. Just make certain one foot (I have always put the Right foot on the Sun) is firmly planted on the Sun and the other foot is firmly planted on the Earth. You need to feel the power rising up from the Sun into your body, feel your body being infused by this energy, and then feel the power flow down the other leg into the Earth. Do this continuously for about 15 minutes. At the end of the 15 minutes, shut off the flow to the Earth while still drawing the power from the Sun. Continue this for about 1 minute. At the end of this exercise see yourself shrink down to your normal size. Do this exercise two to three times a day for the next week. This exercise should make an immediate difference in your available energy and should also ground you. I will not tell you WHAT you will feel however I guarantee you that you WILL feel the energy within you and passing through you. Many are unable to do this exercise for a full 15 minutes when starting. If you are doing it properly you may need to do it for shorter periods initially. Additionally, to call this exercise a Grounding exercise is VERY misleading. Once you begin this exercise you will experience some unusual things that will open an entire new world to you. This results of this exercise actually change based on YOUR NEEDS at the time. __________________ ..

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02-04-2005, 03:58 AM

#15

Kinjo
Member What Kraig really means is that it is not a good thing to treat Consecration of tools as an assembly line operation. This detracts from the working. Each tool or weapon should be reverently Consecrated to its purpose without any distraction of thought. Additionally, especially for those newer to the path, the Magickian should "inflame" themselves specifically for the purpose at hand. This process of a Magickian inflaming themselves should have the SPECIFIC FOCUS AND INTENT of consecrating the tool or weapon to its purpose. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 I recommend that those newer to the path do NOT Consecrate more than one tool or weapon a day. Instead, they should spend the entire day focusing their intent on the Consecration of ONE specific tool or weapon. In this way the tool or weapon will readily become the extension of the Magickian that it was meant to be and truly represent an implement of Focus for the Magickian's Will. The time of day that the Consecration is performed is not nearly as important as the "state" of the Magickian. If performed first thing in the morning then the Magickian has not had enough time to purify themselves for the working nor had time to reach the proper state of "inflaming". I recommend late afternoon or evening for Consecration operations. Again, this advice is directed for those new on the path. The question asked was "would it be cool to Consecrate half of the tools during the day and half at night." At least that is the way I interpret the question. My answer as to the best time of day is above. The Magickian can do it at either time as long as that time has MEANING for the Magickian. If the intended question was whether it would be cool to Consecrate 1/2 of the tool or weapon during the day and the other 1/2 of it at night, my answer is no, it would not be cool. Humbly, I AM Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Icosiel I have been doing the LBRP twice a day for a week now, it seems to have had quite a profound positive effect on me, never before have I felt so alive, happy and at peace. Obviously, my next step it to get familiar with the middle pillar. I have heard many things about it's effects such as increasing clairaudiance, clairvoyance, it can cause problems if you're not mentally ready for it etc. Just wondering what advice people have and what they experience from it spirittually, emotionally, mentally.

Hey my friend! If you haven't, I would suggest you also incorporate the QC into your LBRP ritual. Additionally, I would not rush to add other things to the LBRP just yet. I usually recommend at least a month or two with doing just the LBRP or the LBRP + QC before adding the MP. ALL are important. But progressing slowly has advantages that are not immediately apparent. Humbly, I AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Icosiel I have been doing the LBRP twice a day for a week now, it seems to have had quite a profound positive effect on me, never before have I felt so alive, happy and at peace. Obviously, my next step it to get familiar with the middle pillar. I have heard many things about it's effects such as increasing clairaudiance, clairvoyance, it can cause problems if you're not mentally ready for it etc. Just wondering what advice people have and what they experience from it spirittually, emotionally, mentally. Hey my friend! If you haven't, I would suggest you also incorporate the QC into your LBRP ritual. Additionally, I would not rush to add other things to the LBRP just yet. I usually recommend at least a month or two with
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doing just the LBRP or the LBRP + QC before adding the MP. ALL are important. But progressing slowly has advantages that are not immediately apparent. Humbly, I AM Quote: First this is the The Lesser Key of Solomon Part I Goetia of the Lemegeton by Aleister Crowley. It is a Grimoire that contains the necessary information to summon Demons. If you have to ask what this is then you are definitely not ready to work with it my friend. I say this is the spirit of friendship. This book is NOT to be trifled with. The summonings DO work and the experiences can be very dangerous for those who practice it. I recommend that you spend a lot of time performing the LBRP, QC, and MP prior to using this book. You will find these exercises in this Forum in the Library and read about them in topics. Study this book completely and ensure that you are very familiar with it. In addition, do not concentrate on the Sigils for the Entities as that is often enough to summon the Demon. Humbly, I AM EDITED: I should have made clear that Crowley TRANSCRIBED this version of the Goetia.

Quote: Originally Posted by Master of the Abyss Sounds like your circle was no good and the entity was able to touch you. This is not a big problem, since you banished it, but you might wish to do a series of banishing rituals over the next couple of days, meditate a bit more than usual and/or emphasize being "pure" in whatever ways you see fit, to purify yourself just in case the entity was able to effect something in the brief time before you banished.

I agree with MoTA. Many times these entities will test our Circle and what you felt was that. I do not know how you did your Circle but I fear that you failed in procedure. Banish OFTEN over the next week and DO NOT attempt Evokation of any kind. You should be doing nothing but energy workings to build your energy. Perform the LBRP. You can also perform the following ritual to build energy. I hope this helps. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-04-2005, 04:01 AM

#16

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Kinjo

Kinjo

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That's all I can find at this time from search on CM Forum. I haven't quote anything from the repost or other forums. Will someone fill in the blanks pls.
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02-06-2005, 12:52 AM

#17

Kinjo
Member Repost for prehack OF: Quote: As a foundational statement, ALL MAGICK OCCURS IN THE ASTRAL. We may initiate it in the Physical but it ALWAYS manifests in the Astral. If performed correctly our Magick will then manifest in our physical reality if that is our desire. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 What is important to understand is that when we perform ANY Magick in this Physical reality we are simultaneously performing that Magick in the Astral. We walk in both world simultaneously. The same is true about the Circle. The Circle exists both physically and Astrally (As Above, So Below). Standing in our physical Circle we are the Microcosm and exist simultaneously as the Macrocosm in an Astral Circle. We walk simultaneously in both Physical and Astral worlds. However, when we are just starting our Magickal journeys we do not realize this. Our Circle serves many purposes, but acting in one of its primary functions it creates a bridge between the Physical and Astral. It allows us to symbolically see and be in both Physical and Astral simultaneously. It also provides protection for us against forces that could otherwise harm us. The purpose of this topic is not to discuss all of the properties of the Circle or what is does for us. The purpose of this article is to share my understanding of the nature of the Circle. The purpose of this article is to provide you with the knowledge and tools to demonstrate to you that YOU ARE THE CIRCLE and always have been. Many of us when first starting on our Magickal path draw the Circle physically. We find a convenient (or not so convenient) location, draw our Circle, and perform our rituals. Following this process we are usually, but not always, disappointed with the results of our Magick. Our understanding at this point is strictly confined to this physical reality. But, since we are trying, the Gods take pity on us and provide us with Magickal understanding through Magickal lessons, books that come into our lives at the right time, or insights given to us. At this point we usually learn that we have to Cast our Circle. Usually, at this stage of our development we still physically draw the Circle. Once we draw our Circle, we use our Dagger, trace our physical Circle, and visualize drawing a flaming Circle overlaid over the Circle we have physically drawn. After much practice, we should start seeing the flames of our Circle and many of us also see a shimmering wall where the Circle is. At this point we start to feel proud of our accomplishments because we can actually see our Magick working. We have worked hard on getting our Circle right, learning how to cast it, and how to create a flaming Circle. After continued practice the flames of the Circle become real and the wall created by the Circle become equally real. At this point many Magickians stop, mistakenly believing that they have now achieved what they were supposed to achieve with regards to the Magickal

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Circle. They are content. They are also wrong. Based on my experience and the experience of many other Magickians there is a higher level of understanding. Many of us come to understand that the Physical Circle is unnecessary. Since all Magick occurs in the Astral, why draw a Physical Circle? Is it even necessary? The answer is no. We can cast our Circle in the Astral and achieve the same results. Many or us cast our Circles in our Magickal Temples and start performing all of our Ritual in the Astral (more on this in other Talking Point Topics). In the Astral our Circle is real, achieves the desired effects, and is easier to cast. Many of us still draw our Circle, but are no longer confined by physical space. As it turns out, the Physical Circle was never necessary. However, many of us had to start in the Physical and go through the process described in order to finally come to the understanding that the Physical is an unnecessary step. In order to cast the Circle in the Astral you have to KNOW that you can. For most Magickians this requires they learn the hard way by starting at the bottom and working their way up. Now we are truly Magickians! We are performing Magick in the Astral and

Try this exercise for the Circle. It will serve as training, validate what I have told you, and make you KNOW it as truth. Today, you probably either draw a Circle or "cast" a Circle. You may draw or cast the circle with you inside of it. You cleanse and consecrate the space. You visualize the walls of the Circle. Most likely you Banish as well. In all cases, when you are effective with creating a Circle you "FEEL" the difference. You FEEL the protective capability of the Circle. Now try something different. Cleanse and consecrate YOURSELF. When this is done, visualize a very tiny "period or ring" or "bubble" within yourself. Expand this "ring" or "bubble" which is your Circle out as far as you desire while visualizing the walls of the Circle and the "flame" of the Circle just as you would the other type of Circe. Feel the Circle expand unbroken and whole. When done, compare the "FEELING" you experience with your new type of Circle to the old type. If done correctly, there should be no difference...except that the new type of Circle may "FEEL" stronger! Use this new type of Circle in simple ritual and validate for yourself that it is just as effective. I want to make it clear that I use a Circle, not a bubble. Nor do I know any Ceremonial Magickians that use a bubble. The only reason I mention it is because I have heard of some that use this technique. When it comes time to disperse the Circle...shrink it back inside yourself so that the Circle closes completely with no hole in the center. Make it a period. This will develop within you the beginning of KNOWING that you are the Circle. This new type of Circle can be created almost instantaneously. Once you get comfortable with it then in future years you will come into the knowledge that creating even this new type of Circle is an unnecessary step. By that time you will KNOW that you were the Circle all the time. However, DO NOT GET RID OF THE CIRCLE until you absolutely KNOW this. Share with me the results of your experiments!

Quote:

"As Above, So Below". So it is written in the Emerald Tablet. And it's reverse is true as well. "As Below, So Above". These are foundational truths in Magick as far as I am concerned. So lets apply these to your question. When physically drawing a Circle or creating one through the LBRP we simultaneously create a Circle in the Astral.

Quote: IMO, there is no ONE way of creating a Circle or doing the LBRP. There is YOUR way. Each individual has their own. And many modify it after performing it after awhile because it just "feels" better.

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Talking Point - The Great Voice #18 Talking Point - The Great Voice Talking Point - The Great Voice I would like to talk about the Great Voice. I have seen many posts about this subject but have not seen anyone describe how to do a "Great Voice." So, I will share a technique that I use. When uttering the Great Voice it is completely unnecessary to say anything aloud. In fact, I find that this hinders the effort rather than helps it. Others may be more comfortable using vocal sounds. When I use the Great Voice I manifest the vibrations of the words into the great void and FEEL their vibrations resonating throughout the void. Okay, what does that mean? Visualize yourself in a dark universe, stars and all. Make yourself LARGE in this universe. Size does matter! Make yourself LARGER than the Galaxies and your head touching the ceiling of the Universe if you want to. When saying the words FEEL the vibrations of those words within yourself. You should feel these vibrations shaking the internal fabric of your body if possible. Every molecule of your Body should feel the Vibrations. Believe it or not, you will know when the vibrations are correct. When they feel right release them into the void and feel the entire void vibrate with the vibrations you have created. In fact you should feel them echoing throughout the void. If your words "shake" the void then you have done it correctly. Of course, I could just be on drugs... Humbly, I AM __________________

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Talking Point - KNOWING the Magick 02-06-2005, 12:54 AM #19 Talking Point - KNOWING the Magick I, like many others, started doing my Magick believing that it would work. I performed Ritual and other Magick using knowledge I had gained from Grimoires and other Magickal writings. During my first years of Magick my success was limited. At first I could not understand why I sometimes succeeded and other times I failed miserably. I always determined that I must have done something wrong and that this was why the Magick had failed. Sometimes this was true. However, for the greatest part, my failure to perform Magick had nothing to do with how I did it. My failure was in not KNOWING I could. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java When Magickians first start on their paths they do so believing that Magick is real. Either that or they have become fascinated with some aspect of the Occult. Most start to fulfill some desire while others are just curious. I don't think anyone starts with the intent of performing the "Great Work." What all beginning Magickians have in common is a lack of confidence in their abilities and the

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understanding of how little they know about Magick. The smartest Magickians NEVER lose their understanding of how little they know. What many have in common is their "Faith" that there must be something to Magick or others would not do it. As a foundational truth I offer the following. Magickians cannot do Magick until they KNOW they can. They can go through the motions, perform fancy Rituals, make pretty Temples, and dress in nice ritual robes but it will make no difference in the effectiveness of their Magick. They can have a mountain of "Faith" and fail. We are told that "if we have FAITH the size of a grain of Mustard seed we can move mountains." I will say that "if we have KNOWING the size of a grain of sand we can move the World." So, how is a Magickian supposed to KNOW they can do Magick if they can't perform Magick successfully to begin with? The answer is simple. Actively practice. By performing the LBRP and other rituals we start to "Feel" the results of our Magickal acts. We can "Feel" the Magick inside ourselves after performing ritual and we KNOW we have been successful. The more we practice, the more we KNOW, because the more we practice, the more we can "Feel" the Magick working within us. Over time this "Feeling" of Magick grows stronger. We KNOW. As we grow in Magick our "Faith" slowly gets replaced with KNOWING. As our KNOWING develops it translates into other parts of our ritual and those rituals start to become more successful. As we have more and more successful rituals we start to KNOW our Magick is working and that we were successful. We did the Magick! Instead of believing in ourselves we KNOW our capabilities. Instead of having "Faith" that the Magick will work we KNOW it will. It is at this point that Magickians can really start to do real Magick. Everything up to this point has been preparation. However, most Magickians never think about the process they have just been through. Most Magickians just KNOW their Magick works. At this point "Faith" is no longer an issue. It no longer exists. It has been replaced with KNOWING. IMHO, as all of us look back we can see elements of this process in our Magickal growth. Often without realizing it our Faith became KNOWING and along with it came consistent Magical Success. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-06-2005, 10:33 PM

#20

Kinjo
Member Hey my friend! Some people are comfortable with building their view of the world piece by piece and then defining the sum of the results as the view. I have always been the opposite. I create an umbrella structure into which each new piece of information I receive is fit into this evolving view of the Universe. In this way the structure must, by definition, change if new facts emerge that disagree with it. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 I have found this to be invaluable in my pursuit of Magick. One of my foundations of learning Magick, and life in general, is the following question that I ask myself. Given that this exists, what must have occured to produce this result? This results in there being no blah. There is only AHA! Some people cannot fit the facts into their world or Magickal view, so they either disregard the facts or force them to fit in ways that are nonsense. That is sad. Yet we see this every day. Humbly, I AM Quote:

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If a person's structure of reality constantly changes, because of new information that enters it, then that person can only be certian of one thing...change. In that scenario, MAYBE is the only possible position on anything. Flexibility is too rigid a word. Those that dogmatically hold to the "My way or no way" path have rigid structures that they refuse to change. They often ignore facts because the facts do not fit their definition of "reality". Because of this they rigidly hold onto something TOO long The difficulty exists that as we practice or study long enough, and become sure enough of our own interpretations, we all run the risk of falling into this trap of rigidity. That is where I have found that the question that I ask of myself becomes really valuable.

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02-06-2005, 10:35 PM

#21

Kinjo
Member I would not equate Magickal Burnout with an Abyss experience. In my experience they have no similarity with each other. Magickal Burnout is where the Magickian loses motivation to go forward, to continue growth. This occurs to us all and occurs MANY times in our growth. It is actually a test of our WILL to persevere and the Magickian that overcomes this only grows stronger. The Abyss experience occurs in all paths as far as I can determine. It is triggered by growth. When the Magickian's growth reaches a certain point the Abyss experience is triggered automatically. While the experience can be triggered intentionally I do NOT recommend this for any Magickian. The Abyss experience results in a complete transformation of the Magickian. When the Magickian SUCCESSFULLY crosses the Abyss they emerge not only strengthened but also destroyed. What they were they no longer are. They lose that which previously had identified them and become something new. The experience is different for each Magickian and terror of the Abyss is also different for each Magickian. That said, the result is the same for ALL Magickians. Ego is destroyed. That and much more. How do you survive the Abyss? Become NOTHING. Only by becoming nothing can the Magickian hope to emerge as EVERYTHING. Humbly, I AM __________________

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Kinjo View Public Profile Send a private message to Kinjo 02-06-2005, 10:39 PM Send email to Kinjo Visit Kinjo's homepage! Member Find More Posts by Kinjo Add Kinjo to Your Buddy List The greatest insult to a person is to be ignored. I have seen this in these Forums and it disturbs me. Your posts, as well as the posts of many females and other male members, I find intelligent and very worthwhile. If others miss this, then that is their loss. While I do not comment on every post that does not mean that I do not find value in them. The comment about the newbie issue does have some merit. If one goes back to last summer (a year ago) you will remember that newbies almost NEVER posted in the CM Forum or, if they did, they were shot down fairly quickly by the experienced magickians and armchair types. Although many of the moderators did try to stem this it still occured. Newbies used to be flamed constantly. Compare that to today where the majority of the posts are made by newbies and the more experienced Magickians attempt to help. Where flaming rarely occurs. It is the attitude that has changed and not the Forum itself. Again I will say the following. This is YOUR Forum and if it needs changing then YOU need to change it. I say this to ALL members. The attitude that changed in the CM forum was brought about by a few. You too can do this. Did we lose a few members in the CM forum? Yes, but not very many. We lost far more due to the hacking that has occured. Nor am I taking credit for it. It was the concerted efforts of many moderators and members that brought about this change. Should the CM forums and the other Forums change? Of course they should as they should reflect the values of ALL members and not just a few. And I think this is an evolving thing and that the Forums will always change to reflect the membership. This is not meant to be an open license for anarchy. However this is a Forum for ALL members as long as they are respectful of others beliefs and are willing to participate. As long as they do not attack and are open to other's ideas. This is not idealism...it is fact. One issue that exists today is that it is very difficult to respond to every post, PM, and email. I get TONS of PMs and emails and I try to answer all of them. So do many other Magickians. Most of these ask for advice that requires detailed answers. Some are just to say hi! And I welcome and enjoy ALL of them. However, sometimes there is not enough time in the day and, in my case, sometimes my medical condition prevents my response to posts. However, that does not mean that those posts are not valuable or do not have merit. They do. Humbly, I AM __________________ #22

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02-06-2005, 10:45 PM

#23

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Member Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk I've noticed a trend amongst ceremonial magicians, and that is the fact if you're not male, you get condescending attitudes or automatic assumption you want to hit the sack with the first eligable male (female ceremonial magicians are hard to come by, it seems) Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 If you're into demons, death spells and other weird things, they might respect you but want to have very little to do with you. (Thars just somethin wrong with that thar female) Of course it's all very subtle and if you point it out I am thinking it will be denied that this glass ceiling is there. If I use a male alias, the difference is like night and day in how I am treated. Fortunately, unlike the business world, you can advance by screwing demons instead of stuffed suits (well, in this case robes) I think its pretty funny and pretty sick too What do you think?

I have noted with amusement the number of different replies to this topic. As the Lady said Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk well yeah satan forbid this thread actually stays remotely on topic

However I did feel the need to make a few comments on the more prevalent themes I have noticed. The themes that have emerged are as follows. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Penises, the Circumcised Penis, Hygiene, and Pleasure. Breast size and adequacy. Intersexuals. The Cartoon Network. High versus Low Magick The Phallic symbology of the creative current of Magick. The purity and imbalance of Yin and Yang. The Gender of Magick THE REAL TOPIC QUESTION.

My comments are as follows: 1. Penises, the Circumcised Penis, Hygiene, and Pleasure. I have never noticed that the fact that I was circumcised affected how I treated women in magick. That would go for my hygiene as well. Since I have always been a solitary magickian I guess that would mean that my relationship with my penis has always been solitary as well. 2. Breast size and adequacy. It is possible that breast size can affect vibratory effects in ritual and I have always considered myself at a disadvantage in ritual because of this. 3. Intersexuals. I am not certain they are more guilty than anyone else of discriminating against women in CM. 4. The Cartoon Network. Frankly, I was unaware that the network or the show in question discriminated against women in CM. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. 5. High versus Low Magick. Personally, I do not hold with any definitions of High and Low magick as I do not think they exist. One name just sounds more impressive than the other. I think that many of us when we first start out like to be impressed with ourselves. Let's compare a Ritual that uses a candle and words with a summoning. Compare "Last night by lighting a Candle and saying the ritual words of a spell I created magick to increase my love life" to "Last night I summoned the Demon Sitri into my midst and Commanded the Demon to increase my love life". Which one sounds more impressive? Hmmmmm....Lighting a Candle...Summoning a Demon? The method does not matter...it is the RESULTS that count. 6. The Phallic symbology of the creative current of Magick. One could equally say that the Circle represented the Vagina. By immersing ourselves in it we provide the seed which gives birth to Magick. And I, who for years have known that I am the Circle, have really been a vagina all this time! Now that is a visual isn't it?

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7. The purity and imbalance of Yin and Yang. In many of my posts in the old OF I said that magick was about balance. That is true in many forms. The symbol of Yin and Yang is in perfect BALANCE. What does that say about the importance of both the Female and Male principles in Magick? 8. The Gender of Magick. As Above, So Below contains no references to Gender. As Within, So Without contains no references to Gender. Magick is without Gender and EQUALLY available to all. 9. THE REAL TOPIC QUESTION. Now, what was the original question again? Oh yeah. Discrimination in CM. Well, in this Forum it HAS existed and it is worse I think in other Forums. This area of Magick has been dominated by males for so long that they think that women cannot perform Ceremonial Magick. That is simply NOT TRUE. There are some VERY talented female Ceremonial Magickians both present and past in these Forums. In fact, there are very talented females in ALL paths of Magick all throughout the Forums of OF and other Forums as well. Many of these females are more talented and powerful than many of the males in this forum. The reverse is also true. Many males are more talented powerful than many of the females in this Forum. Discussing this makes about as much sense as discussing virginity among whores...it really is meaningless. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk If you're into demons, death spells and other weird things, they might respect you but want to have very little to do with you. (Thars just somethin wrong with that thar female)

I wish there were far more ladies doing these things. I imagine the Demons wish so too. I think they must be tired of seeing ugly old farts like me all the time. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk I've noticed a trend amongst ceremonial magicians, and that is the fact if you're not male, you get condescending attitudes or automatic assumption you want to hit the sack with the first eligable male (female ceremonial magicians are hard to come by, it seems)

I do not remember when I asked all of you ladies in CM to hit the sack with me but I am on drugs and my memory is faulty. I just hope it was as good for all of you as it must have been for me! Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk If I use a male alias, the difference is like night and day in how I am treated.

The condescending attitude is true as I have noticed it as well. However, as with anything else RESPECT also plays a role. In Magick there actually exists a more equal playing field than in many other areas of life. Either you can do it or you can't. If you are female and you are successful in Magick I guarantee you that you have my respect and, I have noticed, the respect of others. That said, I have noticed that women seem to have to prove themselves BEFORE some will listen to them while men seem to get the benefit of the doubt even if they are idiots. We need to change that. Want to help? If so, then do NOT stand for it. Do NOT accept it. Either confront it or get one of us moderators. While that will NOT stop all of the subtle discrimination it will address a lot of it. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk Fortunately, unlike the business world, you can advance by screwing demons instead of stuffed suits (well, in this case robes).

I have noticed that the Demons seem to be in a better mood lately! Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk (female ceremonial magicians are hard to come by, it seems)

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While there are probably a lot of reasons for this I would say that this is changing. Female Magickians such as yourself and and all the other very talented females on the Magickal path in this forum are changing it. And that makes me happy Finally, I will say this. If any of the ladies feel that they are not being treated with respect in the CM forum please let me know. While I have not been on the Forums that much lately I DO NOT put up with this. Neither do the other moderators in the CM forum. It is a forum open to all as far as I am concerned. I apologise if I have not moved in the past to stop this behavior but I will pay a LOT of attention to it in the future. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-06-2005, 10:58 PM

#24

Kinjo
Member Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell And vanity is a plight of the individual. Not of the Great Work.

Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466

I started with this portion of the post to emphasize it. It should be remembered when reading what follows. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

Thoughts are real. They exist and every thought becomes action at some level. They become REALITY whether or not that is the intention of the person that thinks those thoughts. Because thoughts manifest, they are able to shape the world of the individual and the individual is moulded by this changing reality. IMO, All the in between words are unnecessary. It is the manifestation of thought that changes the reality. Thoughts do not evolve into our destiny they CREATE it. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell I am sick of hearing this argument that all acts are magical. And anyone wanting to throw "will" at me, any act of will is a magical act... well sure. But pure will requires absolution of the ego, and I can guarantee you that not one person on this site has accomplished such. Perhaps in states of trance, as many of us have, but I notice very few applying this to their overall goals in development. My focus has always been ego abolishment, as I see it as a disease and I know will = intuition and that the overall program that is me lies beyond the ego. I give up my individuality in small chunks in order to free up my will/intuition. My will, hence, is not my own. Yes, it is my macro-program.

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Just because an act is mundane does not make it less magickal. When a flower opens its petals we consider it beautiful but mundane. However consider this. Can we make the petals of the flower open by using our WILL? If we cannot then we should ask which magickal power is greater. That of the flower that opens the petals effortlessly or that of the Magickian who fails to make the petals open through the focus of Magickal Will? Which is the greater truth and power; The flower's magick that thwarted the Magickian's Will or the Magickian's belief that the flower was mundane? A child that stands for the first time or that takes its first steps has performed powerful Magick. The child has imposed its WILL on an unwilling and previously uncontrollable vehicle and has brought about its INTENT through an act of WILL. If that is not Magick then what is? You say that pure will requires the absolution of the EGO and go on to say that no one on this site has accomplished this. We need to be careful not to impose our limits on others. Such statements could be considered vain and could be viewed as the EGO emerging. I submit that we cannot judge the Magickal state of another unless we KNOW it. That person that we consider mundane or lacking growth could easily have been a powerful Magickian in a previous life and their growth could actually be far superior to ours. I would also submit that by making this statement one is really saying that they have not yet seen evidence that a person like this exists here on this site. This could be true. Or it could be eyes that cannot see. Who's limits are we talking about here? Again, we must be careful about imposing our limits on others. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell I would say that any sliver of thought or literacy, anything read, is moot in light of the Akashic reference. Let's say for debate's sake that the Akasha is applicable here. Then anything read is useless as it's already contained within the hierarchy of consciousness at some point. The level of access any given person has to the Akashic library is dependent on their progress towards true intituition, hence ego abolishment. Ego interferes with intuition. So I could read all I want, but it is my ego that will either hamper or harness that knowledge.

It is true that the EGO and INTELLECT are often the enemies of growth. That said, reading and study are powerful ways to start the breaking down of both EGO and INTELLECT. Failure to study is a failure to act. By your own admission you studied much prior to initiating practice. And, I submit, that study was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to bring you to where you are. One cannot sit around and "wait" for enlightenment or Magickal growth to strike them. One has to act. Study, practice, more study, learning, insight, and assistance from others all are necessary to bring the Magickian's growth about. For, in truth, all real knowledge is learned in the Magickal Realms (Astral) and it is there that the most powerful lessons are absorbed. It is that knowledge that we bring to this Physical Reality. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell On the other hand, it is my nature and true will's disposition which will see me through to my nature. If it requires something for the program (the true self, the Great Work) to function properly, sans ego, then it will intuit that knowledge, but more likely to proffer forth experiences that will shape a personal relation with such knowledge on a much more relative and subjective level.

It is this intuited knowledge that drives the aspiring Magickian to READ, STUDY, and DISCUSS Magick. It is through these mundane actions that additional experiences become available. And, while it is true that experiences occur as they are necessary to achieve our growth, they are only part of a larger energy in our lives that you would call TRUE WILL that is continually shaping the individual and preparing them for further growth. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell Take the sexual abuse of children: almost always they refer to "another place" in which you go. This sidereal place is an esoteric experience, privy to those in states of trauma and those experimenting with whoop-dee-doo occult texts, as well as New Age books, or even learned through the combination of psychedelics and any number of fictitious works by the likes of Clive Barker, Iain Banks, Graham Joyce, Tom Robbins, Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, R. Scott Bakker, Mark Z. Danielewski, Lewis Carroll, and a whole host of others.

This place they go to is a place of THEIR creation. And, often, that place becomes a prison

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from which they cannot escape. There is no universal place where the abused "go". Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell What is practise? It is the application of the theories provided in these occult texts. And that is all they are until put to practise: theories. Untill it is proven, and in a phenomenological-type world which contemporary magic holds dear, all is simply a refraction of a subjective experience. Lessons may be passed along in this inter-subjective tapestry in which we share experiences, but overall magic is the act of imposing oneself on the overall matrix, onto the inter-subjective tapestry in which we're all tied.

I would say this much differently. Magick is not theory. It just IS. It is real. It surrounds us in all that we do. When we practice we are taking what we believe to be true and validating it.

Practice is our method of overcoming the limitations that our EGO and INTELLECT often put on us. The more we practice the more REAL the Magick becomes for us. After time, we no longer have to believe; we KNOW. That is the intent of
practice and its ultimate result. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell Read all you want, it's not going to change much. The book is simply one of many possible experiences with which the Higher Self is going to bring about its lessons to the shell which is experiencing this time-space via the ego. Yes, literature works, but it is simply one method.

How can one place a higher value on one part of learning over another? ALL are necessary to bring us to where we need to ultimately be. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Fell You take one bimbo from some top-forty club and give her a book on anything remotely spiritual. Hell, you take her under your wing and spend day and night teaching her. If its not in the overall macro-program for her at that point, then your efforts will be all in vain.

Is this observation a true reality or is it vanity and EGO? One should be very careful when "judging" the level of another's Magickal growth. Viewed in this one lifetime our evaluation may be correct. However, when viewed over many lifetimes the answer may well be much different. It is a mistake to judge another's true growth unless one has seen it in its ENTIRETY. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-06-2005, 11:03 PM

#25

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Kinjo

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Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by TaylorE I've just started up school again. I'm currently pursuing my ph.d in Literacy, Rhetoric, and Social Practice. One of the projects I'm working on is the Literacy of Magick. i'm currently reading William Covino's: Magic, Rhetoric and he discusses two models of magic practice. One model is the arresting practice of magic, which restricts access to knowledge and learning. I tend to think of dogmatic magickians as arrested practitioners. The second model is a Generative practice of magick, which encourages critical thinking, questioning the systems of discourse as well as other systems and utilizing magick as a way of challenging and changing the systems. I've some other books I'll be reading soon, but I've been mulling this idea of literacy and magick for quite some time. So I'm curious what are your thoughts on what literacy is and how, if at all, its applicable to magickal practice?

Member View Public Profile Send a private message to Kinjo Send email to Kinjo Visit Kinjo's homepage! Find More Posts by Kinjo Kinjo is Online: Add Kinjo to Your Buddy List Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466

In your post you mention Literacy and question what its application is to Magickal practice. You also divide Literacy into Arresting and Generative Practices and supply definitions for both. My response will probably diverge from others that may post in this Topic. So will my definitions. First, we must separate Magick from the paths taken to discover it. Magick in your examples is the goal that both Arresting and Generative paths are pursuing. Because of this, both the Arresting and Generative paths are nothing but vehicles. They are not the destination. In the same way that Ritual is a vehicle and not the destination, so too are ALL paths of practice leading to the discovery and manifestation of Magick in our lives. In all cases, these paths and practices are the vehicle which carry us to the INITIAL destination which is the MAGICK ITSELF. It is through these paths and practices that we come to know the Magick. Upon arriving at this initial destination, a new and different journey begins. This journey is beyond any path and outside of any vehicle that enabled the journey to begin with. However, this journey is also a vehicle and the destination this time is not so clear. In this case the destination becomes a method of understanding the Magick in our lives, the Magickal foundations of our universe, and Magick's influence over time and space as we know it. In this journey, we are not learning so much as we are evolving. And in this journey the difference between Subjective and Objective learning disappears. It is during this journey in Magick that we come to understand that the path to get there was meaningless. However, once we begin this new journey, we recognize that the journey in Magick IS meaningful, has structure, and has many levels of understanding and knowledge. If the definitions you provide describe the vehicles that bring us to the Magick then a possible definition for the vehicle that is Magick is AWARENESS. It is during this journey that we truly become AWARE of both the Magick and our place and purpose in this new reality. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-06-2005, 11:08 PM

#26

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Kinjo

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Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Specktackular Crowley nearly got killed due to sloppy magickal workings? By what? Demons (or figments of his imagination)?

Member View Public Profile Send a private message to Kinjo Send email to Kinjo Visit Kinjo's homepage! Find More Posts by Kinjo Kinjo is Online: Add Kinjo to Your Buddy List Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 Specktackular, It is obvious from many of your posts that you consider Magick to be a MENTAL exercise and not a real one. This is simply not true. The only figments in magick are created by those that have not practiced. The entities of Magick exist and those who believe otherwise have just not experienced them yet. The Archagngels are REAL. The Astral is REAL. Crowley almost dying is not a unique experience among Magickians. It is a REAL phenomena. I AM __________________

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02-06-2005, 11:16 PM

#27

Kinjo
Member I would look within yourself first. Were you centered? Was your mind really on the work at hand? Were you distracted by your NEED? Crowley once said that we should never lust after the result. He was correct. It is the magick that is important. If the magick is done perfectly the result WILL occur. Perhaps grounding yourself, centering yourself, and not worrying about the result will bring you to where you desire to be. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 Humbly, I AM Quote: I have seen Demons. I have talked to Demons. I am not insane. I have also seen and talked to other entities. MANY Magickians have also done this. There is more to our world than many suppose. Either we are ALL deluded or others need to enlarge their perception of reality. Humbly, I AM

Quote:

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Your description of a Demon is ACCURATE. It is impossible to name the Demon you encountered with the information you have provided. There are more Demons than you can count and its identity is really not important. Doh is correct in her advice. Someone has directed the Demon to attack you. This is not an idle event. PaulS and his advice is also sound. Within the Christian religion are methods to thwart this kind of attack. I am going to suggest something that will surprise you. The next time you encounter this Demon tell it that you are not its enemy. You are a friend. Ask it to tell you why it is attacking and then LISTEN to the response. Then thank it and ask it to leave. Demons may respond to those that control it but that does not mean that they have to like it. Most times they do not. You can often convert this Demon from attacker to friend and end your problems as well. You just have to be willing to try. Doing this DOES NOT MEAN that you are embracing Demons or being Un-Christian. Nor does it mean that you are giving yourself over to Demons or Satan. You will still be Christian, still have your heart and soul belong to your God, and yet gain a new understanding of the Universe around you. I wish you well my friend. Humbly, I AM

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02-06-2005, 11:27 PM

#28

Kinjo
Member First I would like to say that I am Ceremonial and I DO NOT buy into the preaching, the forced concept of magick, that has been posted by ONE person in this topic. As I said in my first post (many years ago it now seems) the Magick that Chaos Magickian uses, IMHO, exists within other structured ceremonial paths as well as other magickal paths. Chaos Magickians have removed the dogma and have freed themselves to expand the boundries of Magick and its practice. NOTHING IS REAL and that includes the prisons that bound Chaos Magickians in other Paths. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 One person has gone on and on about Chaos and reality without ever understanding or STUDYING Chaos Magick. I am equally uncertain whether this person has EVER really actively practiced anything. While I may get flamed for this, I SEE the structure in Chaos Magick. IMO, it is the foundational principle of all Magick. It is based on INTENT, FOCUS, and WILL. That of the Magickian. This is NOT a complicated concept although at least one person desires to make it so. If this is true then this concept is contained in ALL Magick and ALL Paths. Magick does not lead to breakdowns or pyschosis. People do. Either they approach Magick being already unbalanced and the Magick magnifies the problems or they tackle a higher process than they are ready for. In neither of these cases in the Magick at fault. And this issue exists in ALL paths of Magick and even religion as well. How many unbalanced religious people have we known? I submit that there are many. In an earlier post I said that I was both a Ceremonial Magickian and a Chaos Magickian and that I was unable to seperate the two. What I meant by that is that I recognize what I consider to be foundational principles that are contained in Chaos Magick because I use them myself. Humbly, I AM

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Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Froclown "I SEE the structure in Chaos Magick. IMO, it is the foundational principle of all Magick. It is based on INTENT, FOCUS, and WILL. That of the Magickian." I AM Thus, the only reason to seperate Chaos magick from Thelema at all, is that Chaos magick refused to believe in the obvious, that there is a real reality, you have a Real body out in this real world, and that your thoughts, and beliefs do not directy effect this reality. Magick changes reality only indirectly it focuses the Will which promotes action rather than laziness and procrastination. Thus, magick does not make money myseriously appear out of thin air, it makes you motivated to go any and get a job!. Actions alone effect Real relaity, thoughts and beliefs can change the way we see reality, but they never change what is really True about reality.

Many times in my Magick I HAVE needed money, HAVE done Magick to receive it, and HAVE HAD that money appear in completely bizarre ways that had NOTHING to do with my physical efforts in this reality. Right after I married the first time we desperately needed money. I was in the U.S. Navy and about to go on cruise in 5 days and was in the position where my wife would be left with very little money to take care of her. I did not perform Ceremonial Magick...I performed what I define as Chaos Magick. I performed Magick that required that money be provided to us without death or injury coming to anyone. We had just moved to Virginia. I had moved from Hawaii and she had moved from New Jersey. My household goods had already arrived but hers had not. Two days after I performed my Magick we were informed that her household goods had been destroyed. I later found out that two hours after I performed my Magick her household goods were destroyed in a fire that started INSIDE the moving company's trailer while on the Company's property parked in the parking lot. I was insured for household goods at 100% of replacement value. We got paid $26,000 U.S. Now although it is true that the Law of Unintended Consequences hit me, and that this was NOT how I wanted to get the money, the fact remains that money appeared directly due to the Magick that I had performed. My Magick DIRECTLY affected THIS Physical Reality. Those that would call this coincidence just do not understand Magick. The lessons to be derived from this factual experience is that Magick CAN CHANGE PHYSICAL REALITY and that one has to be very careful to ensure that unintended consequenses are FULLY negated in Magick.

Thus, your statement Quote: Originally Posted by Froclown Thus, magick does not make money myseriously appear out of thin air, it makes you motivated to go any and get a job! is false and does not match the REAL experience of others. This statement is not grounded in correct Magickal Theory or Practice but on an incorrect interpretation of Magick. I could provide many other examples but I think this one will do nicely.

Your statements are grounded in THIS PHYSICAL REALITY and until your REAL experience allows you to accept the FACT that there is an entire Magickal reality out there that affects this PHSYICAL reality AT WILL then you will never be on the same Magickal level as many who have posted in the topic. Humbly, I AM __________________

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Kinjo View Public Profile Send a private message to Kinjo Send email to Kinjo 02-06-2005, 11:30 PM Visit Kinjo's homepage! #29

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Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Froclown (I would go so far as to say a man who thinks that by wearing a special suit and performing certain movements saying the right words, he can compel a rock to float, in the same way that a conductor commands an orchestra, is a psychotic and deluded individual)

Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 I freely admit that, under your definition, I am both psychotic and deluded. However, your statement makes me question what you are. You preach incessantly about True Will which was popularized by Crowley. Yet in all of your comments about the capabilities of Magick you ignore many of Crowley's Theorums of Magick. I will list a few. These Theorums I supply are numbered for MY convenience and not in the order that Crowley gave them. The highlights are mine as well. 1.Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will. 2.Every intentional act is a Magickal act. 3.Every failure proves that one or more requirements of the postulate have not been fulfilled. 4.Man is ignorant of the nature of his own being and powers. Even his idea of his limitations is based on experience of the past, and every step in his progress extends his empire. There is therefore no reason to assign theoretical limits to what he may be, or what he may do. 5.Man is capable of being, and using, anything which he perceives, for everything which he perceives is in a certain sense a part of his being. He may thus subjugate the whole of the Universe of which he is conscious to his individual Will. 6.Every force in the Universe is capable of being transformed into any other kind of force by using suitable means. There is thus an inexhaustible supply of any particular kind of force that we may need. 7.A man may learn to use any force so as to serve any purpose, by taking advantage of the above theorems. 8.He may attract to himself any force of the Universe by making himself a fit receptacle for it, and arranging conditions so that its nature compels it to flow toward him. 9.There is no limit to the extent of the relations of any man with the Universe in essence; for as soon as man makes himself one with any idea the means of measurement cease to exist. But his power to utilize that force is limited by his mental power and capacity, and by the circumstances of his human environment. Crowley clearly understood that there were NO LIMITS TO MAGICK BUT OUR OWN. There are NO limits. Our reality is subject to our Will. Practicing Magickians (You are speaking to many here) KNOW that Magick can change our physical reality. Many here create Sigils for just that purpose. They do other Magick as well. They see their results manifest in this reality all the time. Your laws of Physics are constructs of THIS REALITY and not the Magickal one. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Froclown Magick is about manipulating beliefs and perceptions.

What you have described is STAGE MAGIC, not true Magick. True Magick is about manifesting our WILL and INTENT in the Astral and Physical. Your comment is typical of Arm Chair Magickians. The difference between you and I is the difference between BELIEF and KNOWING. You believe. I KNOW. The gulf that exists between us cannot be crossed in this topic. I will leave you with this tale about an Egyptian Magickian that others may have seen before. This Magickian was obviously deluded and psychotic, either that or the scribe that recorded this event was.

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If this Magickian could hold back hundreds of tons of water (700 years before Moses) then I don't think a tiny little rock would be a problem, do you? Humbly, I AM Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Egyptian Magick by E.A. Wallace Budge Chapter One Later on in the history of Moses' dealings with the Egyptians we find the account of how "he stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left." When the Egyptians had come between the two walls of water, by God's command Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, "and the sea returned to his strength," and the "waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them." But the command of the waters of the sea or river was claimed by the Egyptian magician long before the time of Moses, as we may see from an interesting story preserved in the Westcar Papyrus. This document was written in the early part of the XVIIIth dynasty, about B.C. 1550 but it is clear that the stories in it date from the Early Empire, and are in fact as old as the Great Pyramid. The story is related to king Khufu (Cheops) by Baiu-f-R as an event which happened in the time of the king's father, and as a proof of the wonderful powers of magic which were possessed by the priest called Tchatcha-em-nkh. It seems that on a certain day king Seneferu was in low spirits, and he applied to the nobles of his royal household expecting that they would find some means whereby his heart might be made glad; but as they could do nothing to cheer up the king, he gave orders that the priest and writer of books, Tchatcha-em-nkh, should be brought into his presence immediately, and in accordance with the royal command he was at once brought. When he had arrived, Seneferu said to him, "My brother, I turned to the nobles of my royal household seeking for some means whereby I might cheer my heart, but they have found nothing for me." Then the priest made answer and advised the king to betake himself to the lake near the palace, and to go for a sail on it in a boat which had been comfortably furnished with things from the royal house. "For," said he, "the heart of thy Majesty will rejoice and be glad when thou sailest about hither and thither, and dost see the beautiful thickets which are on the lake, and when thou seest the pretty banks thereof and the beautiful fields then shall thy heart feel happiness." He next begged that the king would allow him to organize the journey, and asked his permission to let him bring twenty ebony paddles inlaid with gold, and also twenty young virgins having beautiful heads of hair and lovely forms and shapely limbs, and twenty nets wherein these virgins may array themselves instead of in their own ordinary garments. The virgins were to row and sing to his Majesty. To these proposals the king assented, and when all was ready he took his place in the boat; while the young women were rowing him about hither and thither the king watched them, and his heart became released from care. Now as one of the young women was rowing, she entangled herself in some way in her hair, and one of her ornaments which was made of "new turquoise" fell into the water and sank; she ceased to row, and not herself only, but all the other maidens ceased to row also. When the king saw that the maidens had ceased from their work, he said to them, "Will ye not row?" and they replied, "Our leader has ceased to row." Then turning to the maiden who had dropped her ornament overboard, he asked her why she was not rowing, whereupon she told him what had happened. On this the king promised that he would get back the ornament for her. Then the king commanded that Tchatcha-em-nkh should appear before him at once, and as soon as the sage had been brought into his presence he said to him, "O Tchatcha-emnkh, my brother, I have done according to thy words, and the heart of my Majesty became glad when I saw how the maidens rowed. But now, an ornament which is made of new turquoise and belongeth to one of the maidens who row hath fallen into the water, and she hath in consequence become silent, and hath ceased to row, and hath disturbed the rowing of those in her company. I said to her, 'Why dost thou not row?' and she replied, 'An ornament [of mine] made of new turquoise hath fallen into the water.' Then I said to her, 'I will get it back for thee.'" Thereupon the priest and writer of books Tchatcha-em-nkh spake certain words of power (hekau), and having thus caused one section of the water of the lake to go up upon the other, he found the ornament lying upon a pot-sherd, and he took it and gave it to the maiden. Now the water was twelve cubits deep, but when Tchatcha-em-nkh had lifted up one section of the water on to the other, that portion became four and twenty cubits deep. The magician again uttered certain words of power, and the water of the lake became as it had been before he had caused one portion of it to go up on to the other; and the king prepared a feast for all his royal household, and rewarded Tchatcha-em-nkh with gifts of every kind. Such is a story of the power possessed by a magician in the time of king Khufu (Cheops), who reigned at the beginning of the IVth dynasty, about B.C. 3800. The copy of the story which we possess is older than the period when Moses lived, and thus there can be no possibility of our seeing in it a distorted version of the miracle of the waters of the sea

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standing like walls, one on the right hand and one on the left; on the other hand Moses' miracle may well have some connexion with that of Tchatcha-em-nkh. Egyptian Magick by E.A. Wallace Budge Chapter One

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02-17-2005, 06:35 PM

#30

Kinjo
Member Originally posted by LadyHydralisk I absolutely love Crowley, I always will! How could I fault him for the same mistake I made: being too trusting? They always say it's the infernals you have to watch out for. The worst they've done to me is give me physical burns, inadvertantly. On the other hand...these entities...connected to my deck, who are considered to be harbingers of the New Age in many parts of the world almost killed me, purposefully, vindictively, in the most cowardly ways possible, when I refused their goodwill. Not very parental, I assure you. Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 Because you indicated you wish to know more, and because I really have no way of putting into words my own experiences with Horus, let me share with you some more of what I AM wrote. I feel it may be of importance for research purposes. I am sharing this now because I deliberated for days to come to a conclusion: on whether I had the guts to share it or not, in public. Not because I am afraid of repercussions, but because I wanted to be sure it was the right sources telling me to uncover this. So to prologue the story: I am not s***ing you when I tell you that I AM saved my life not two weeks ago. For that I am grateful because he was in great pain, and that pain was extended in order to offer aid to his fellows, instead of finding his reward in the afterlife. On the phone he told me he wanted me to post more because I could get away with saying things he could not. I promised I would return as soon as things slowed down around here (They have NOT, as fun as it is!) I will try to live up to that promise. It is enough to know that when I say the things I say, I mean them in utter seriousness. I do consider the weight behind what am about to say. I AM did not want to be known as a good magician. In fact he would not admit to me that he was an experienced wizard, even after I pestered him about it for months. Other good people, friends of I AM know the story I am about to relate, but I think the facts stand for themselves, without anyone having to relate their perspectives. I say this because I will take on and defeat the FULL force of the backlash, whether from the OTO or any guttersnipes who dare come within five heartbeats of my astral space. I post it, first, because I think the truth cannot be hidden, because I feel outraged at I don't want anyone else involved in the problems. I also think it depicts wizardry at it's finest: the capacity for mercy, humility and reason while at the same time, weilding source-driven power. I am outraged with what happened with the CM library and the OTO temple. I feel compelled to say this. Still, I am closing my eyes and wincing when I hit "Submit Ah only the thunderbirds outside my window right now could compel me to endure this Reply"... kind of torture :P This is one of the more pertinent letters from I AM pertaining to Horus, the OTO etc that I wanted to share.

Quote:

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"He (Horus) has been destroyed now and Osirus is in self imposed exile. Ra was not happy with what he found out about this world on his return. One shouldn't lie to Ra...it is unhealthy. Thelema IS laced with poison in my opinion. I really enjoy Crowley in his early years. However, when he went to Egypt and was given the Book of the Law through his wife things gradually started to change. The Book of the Law is good BTW. Crowley started a slow deterioration brought about by Horus. And his Magick started becoming more and more bizarre. So did his rituals. In the end he was abandoned by Horus, a broken Magickian, and one with few powers in my opinion. Others would violently disagree but that has always been my feeling. Modern Thelema treats what they practice as a religion..and it is...a religion of Horus. That is sad. I did not tell you about what happened to me after meeting your Demon. When I met your Demon I did not abuse it and did not harm it. I just told him that I was not his enemy, that I was a friend, and that I gave him license to depart immediately. He did. Well about a week later I was sitting on my porch when who shows up unannounced but the Demon. He told me I was about to be Magickally attacked. I thanked him, asked his name, and when I started to give him license to depart he stopped me. He told me that since I had not summoned him then I should not give license to depart. In hindsight I agree. Remember the commotion with the O.T.O over the CM Library? How they claimed copyright to ALL of Crowley's writings? Well, they attacked me. There were 9 of them acting simultaneously and many of their Senior Magickians were participating. Their attack was intended to be in two parts. The first was to make me into a quivering mass of fear. The second was to destroy me. They also sent one of the biggest Servitors I have ever seen against me. I felt it start and reacted against them. I grew large and focused my intent on the Servitor and it disintegrated (only way I know to describe it). I found the link and directed my attack down the link. The attack stopped immediately and it threw them in disarray. I then followed up with additional attacks. I stopped only when I felt they were unable to continue ANYTHING. I went back later. They had erected a protective shield. It is the first time I have ever seen and heard a shield shatter. When I appoached and focused my intent the shield broke like glass. I immediately heard the word STOP. I asked why I should. The voice responded that they were no longer attacking me. I asked if
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that was supposed to make me feel better about the attack. The voice then said PLEASE STOP! We will NEVER attack you again. PLEASE. I told them to NEVER bother me or anyone associated with me EVER again. If they did I would finish what was started. Naomi, these were powerful Magickians. They were shocked that I felt the attack, shocked that I WAS ABLE to attack them, shocked at the damage I did to them, and shocked that their Magick was ineffective against me. When I went back they were stunned that I broke their shield without effort. They were scared. No one had successfully attacked any of them for many years. Their power individually was great yet it was swept away as if it was nothing. It was swept away even with 9 of their most powerful Magickians involved. They were reeling from the fact that I swept away the combined ritual efforts of 9 of them simultaneously. Their view of their Magickal abilities was destroyed as was their confidence. Naomi, I am telling you this first because I thought you would be interested given the topic of Thelema. Most importantly I am telling you this to show that the O.T.O. CAN be withstood successfully WITHOUT HARM to the Magickian. I am telling you this to give you strength when encountering an attack by multiple Magickians simultaneously."
Just the facts...

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Last edited by Kinjo : 02-17-2005 at 06:40 PM.

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02-19-2005, 09:53 AM

#31

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Kinjo

Kinjo
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by Caradoc Hey I AM I know everything's hectic at the moment trying to get up and running again but when you get a few minutes could you post something on the personal relationship with archangels theme? No rush. I just thought I'd remind you as you could easily forget with all the crap that's been going on. PS... hope this didn't sound pushy or critical, it wasn't meant to. PPS.. Thanks for recovering this Kinjo, it was a good topic

Member View Public Profile Send a private message to Kinjo Send email to Kinjo Visit Kinjo's homepage! Find More Posts by Kinjo Kinjo is Online: Add Kinjo to Your Buddy List Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466

I am glad you have reminded me Caradoc! Today I would probably recommend the LIRP to facilitate conversation with the Arch Angels. This would be a prudent approach and one that would be accepted by many Magickians. However, this is NOT how I did it. Years ago I had finished the LBRP and was meditating on the Arch Angels and the role they played in the LBRP. As my thoughts revolved around these entities I wondered if I could contact them directly. Please remember that this was years ago and I was in a place that was in the middle of the Bible belt. There were no occult bookstores and no other Magickians that I was aware of. So after giving thought to how I would contact the Arch Angel of my choice I decided on the following. After performing the LBRP I focused my INTENT on Gabriel and told him that I wanted a direct conversation with him. I told him I wanted to know him and asked for him to provide me with guidance on how best to contact and converse with him. I told him I wanted to have a personal relationship with him. I did this every day for about a week and enflamed myself each time I asked. He answered. I will not share what he answered but he DID answer. And he has continued to answer ever since. And, in truth, he actually answered me the first time even though I was too dense to realize it. Each Magickian needs to choose what works for them. The only advice I will give is to NOT make it too complicated. I hope this helps Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-22-2005, 09:24 AM

#32

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Kinjo
Member Quote: Originally Posted by Deckard This is in follow up to a topic from before the first hack. My original question was how to get the spirit to manifest. I would repost it as a quote here but my save was destroyed. I received excellent tips from Ashnook, Master of the Abyss, I Am and others (pardon if you are not mentioned). Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 While I now enjoy the fruits of your advice, I am having trouble with control of the spirit. Here is part of the following mornings journal AmazingOrobas made his presence known before the first sentence of the call was finished by communicating. It was the most unusual method I had ever encountered. Pictures, words, sentence fragments. sometimes vague, but quite understandable. I began by asking what he could achieve but he interrupted me by demanding You may correctly assume I am working with Goetic entities. I have read most of the posts in these past three iterations of OF. Most information seems to center around; 1.Knowing I have the right to command 2.Threat and curses of the spirit 3.Vibration of holy names 4.Exerting my will on the spirit 5.Some suggest offering tribute in various forms. (I would think to let the spirit ask for something after it agreed to do my will and make it conditional on success of some request) I would very much appreciate advice on those 5 points as well as others that have worked for you. I welcome specifics but do not wish to be thought a spell beggar. I would be grateful for any offsite links or information of any kind. I feel further evocations would be detrimental until I have a better grasp of how to control them. Feel free to PM me if you deem any of your answers too sensitive to post. Thank you for your time.

Hey my friend! First, I would like a little more information. You say that the Goetic interrupted you with demands. Can you be more specific and lay out the conversation as you remember it? Second, you discuss what you feel is a lack of control. What happened that gave you this impression? As a quick response to your questions I will say the following. 1. When "Commanding" the Goetic is it, in my experience, critical that you have embraced your "DIVINITY". That is NOT the Christian God. It is more knowing that YOU are God. When commanding as "GOD" these Entities pay attention. KNOW that they are there to answer you. 2. In my experience threats and curses are unnecessary. If you have embraced your "Divinity" correctly the Entities already know you have the capability to compell them. IMO, threats and curses were included in the Grimoires because the authors knew that many who used the Grimoires would be inexperienced. In hopes of not offending anyone, if the Magickian is fully capable threats and curses are unnecessary. It is only the inexperienced Magickian that needs these. Instead, try talking to them as EQUALS. I think you will be surprised at the response. 3. The vibration of the Names is not something that someone can tell you. However, you will KNOW when you have vibrated them correctly. There will be no doubt in your mind. Using the Great Voice will assist you in achieving the vibrations you will need. 4. By definition, the Goetic has appeared BECAUSE of the Magickian's will that it be there. Again, embracing "Divinity" makes the Magickian more than they are. Done correctly the Goetics WILL respond. Again, in my experience, the Goetics respond very well if the Magickian KNOWS he or she is a God. 5. As far as tribute goes I will say the following. ANY tribute must be acceptable to the Magickian. It must be something that the Magickian is WILLING to give freely. A Goetic's first demand for tribute OPENS NEGOTIATIONS. They can ask for the moon but often settle for a picture of it. Understand? Blood sacrifice, or the offering of any body fluid, is unnecessary in my experience. Many Goetics will attempt to bend you to their will and tribute is one way that this occurs. You need to be in control at all times during the negotiations. These Entities WILL test the Magickian. They will test the Circle, test the Magickian's control, and test the ability of the Magickian to discern truth. However they can also be very helpful. If Magickians are

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in control of themselves then they are in control of the Ceremony. Just my few thoughts. I look forward to the responses of others. I hope this quick answer proves helpful. Humbly, I AM __________________

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02-22-2005, 09:30 AM

#33

Kinjo
Member It IS important to always validate what the Entity tells you. And regardless what others might say the Name and Sigil are UNIQUE to that particular Demon. Additionally the appearance is also a unique identifier in my experience. This is true for ANY Entity that is summoned. When reading the Goetia notice that a UNIQUE Sigil and Name of Calling are associated with each Demon. The magickian does not randomly call for "Fred" when performing a Goetic operation. The Magickian calls for a specific entity using a UNIQUE Name of calling and a UNIQUE Sigil. If the Name of Calling and the Sigil that the magickian uses are the correct ones for that entity, there is only ONE Entity that CAN appear if the Ritual is performed correctly AND THE MAGICKIAN IS IN CONTROL. I have not had an experience where this did NOT occur. That said, after the initial summoning the Magickian may not care if an underling is sent in subsequent summonings so long as the magickian's requirements are met and it was AGREED to by the Magickian. There are MANY magickians in the Forum that have successfully summoned Goetics. They have detailed their experiences not only in this forum but in the previous forums before they were hacked. You need to listen to them. The summoning experiences these magickian's have shared ring TRUE to others that have summoned successfully. These magickians have CREDIBILITY concerning Goetic operations. I submit that those who actually do summon these beings REALLY DO know what they are talking about. Those that do not summon these beings can only guess. Finally, a successful summoning experience is MORE than just evokation. A successful experience: - requires that the magickian had control which means that the "hostile" actions of the Demon, if they occured, CEASED on command of the magickian. - requires that the magickian successfully communicated their desires to the Goetic and that the Entity acknowledged those desires. - requires that the Demon PERFORMED the requested action within the SPECIFIED time period or ANSWERED correctly the question(s) given to them. - requires that the Demon departed when given liscense to do so and that NO ILL EFFECTS remained after Banishing. There are other elements but you get the idea. Humbly, I AM Quote:

Kinjo is Online: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466

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Originally Posted by Kaymon How close is the actual goetia you have today in comparrison to the one Solomon used? or the one that Agrippa used? It is very likely that seals in the book are not correct anymore, repetitive use of sigils down the ages has most likely changed the way they seals look, too much of a curve here and there, a rough mistake of circles get the idea? tiny mistakes that may have been repetited again and again and more mistakes made so that the goetia seals you have today does not look like anything you have today. Perphaps you do not summon demons but other entities? Try and except that possibility as there are more entities than just demons. I will also except the possibility that everything I have learnt to believe about ceremonial magicians could be wrong and that they actually do summon demons.

Kaymon I will relate an early experience that I had with a Goetic summoning. When I was first starting years ago I performed a summoning experience and used a "Goetia SEAL" from Waite's "Cermonial Magick" book. The Entity did answer the summoning, CORRECTED the SEAL, and then granted my request. Waite's book, as I later learned from experience, had many of the SEALS drawn incorrectly...presumably to protect the innocent (BTW, let this be a caution for members that wish to contact Goetic Entities...you do not want to use Waite's book for your reference). In this case, the Entity provided me with the correct SEAL and it did match the actual Goetia. From an authenticity point of view this worked pretty well for me. I have found that the Entity will ensure you have the correct SEAL if it really matters. From that point on I used the SEALS found in the Goetia and I validated them with the Entities that I summoned. I also discovered through these experiences that "close is good enough" when using SEALS. Do not misunderstand me, we need to get the SEALS as close to accurate as possible. That said, I found that the Entities responded even if I drew the SEALS badly (I am not an artist), corrected me when I did something wrong, and that it validated in other sources. I would also like to address something else. I wish we could throw out the Christian concepts of "Good and Evil" , "Heaven and Hell", and "Angels and Demons" when discussing the Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon. The Goetic Demons can heal and do many other "GOOD" things and Angels can RUIN your entire day, or someone else's for that matter, by doing "BAD" things. In my experience, the Christian concepts of Good and Evil do not apply when talking about "Angelic" and "Demonic" forces. I am not even certain that the human mind can even comprehend their full nature. I just know that how we view good and evil and how "Angels and Demons" view good and evil are very different. It is my opinion, based on my experience, that Angelic and Demonic forces are just different forces with different methods of action. I do not view the Entities of the Goetia as Demons (Not in the Christian sense). That is just my personal opinion. I will leave it to the religious among the members to argue whether they correspond to the Biblical account of Angels and Demons. That is NOT a discussion I am interested in participating in. Simularly, many Demons (Non-Goetia) today are the Gods of yesterday. When one religion supplanted another, the old Gods tended to become Demons. If this is all it takes to make an Entity a Demon then we need to change our definitions, or at least our understanding, of Demonic forces. I hope this makes some of my views more clear. Humbly, I AM __________________

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#34

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Rate Thread Search Tools Thread this Thread KinjoThisKinjo Member View Show Printable Version Public Profile Excellent Go Send a private message to Kinjo Good Advanced Search Email this Page Average Send email to Kinjo Unsubscribe Bad this from Visit Kinjo's homepage! Terrible Thread Find More Posts by Kinjo Kinjo is Vote Nowthis Thread Add a Poll to Online: Add Kinjo to Your Buddy List Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Paris van Java Posts: 466 On developing Astral Sight: You are ALREADY in the Astral, You just do not know how to see it Hold your hand out in front of you Look at your hand Slowly let everything but your hand go black When you do so you should see an energy outline of your hand and your energy hand as well. When you see that... Then SLOWLY bring the color back... If done correctly.... You should now be seeing in the Astral The trick is to NOT LOSE SIGHT of your hand as an energy hand Keeping your hand as an energy hand allows you to see the rest of the Astral energy when you bring the colors back Is this ALL clear? DO this exercise until you see the Astral When you are successful you should see everything glowing either greyish or greenish but VERY distinctly __________________ ..

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