KTR00069

GATIEN LIVAUDAIS, JR.
4/7/2008
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA
IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION
NO. 06-2268
"K" (2)
PERTAINS TO: ROBINSON JUDGE DUVAL
MAG. WILKINSON
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
GATIEN J. LIVAUDAIS, JR.,
4626 East St. Bernard Highway, Meraux,
Louisiana 70075, taken in the offices of Andry
Law Firm, 610 Baronne Street, New Orleans,
Louisiana 70113, on Monday, April 7 2008.
JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

GATIEN LIVAUDAIS, JR. 4/7/2008
Page 2 Page 4
1 APPEARANCES:
2
1 STIPULATION
3 ANDRY LAW FIRM 2
(BY: JONATHAN B. ANDRY, ESQ.)
4 610 Baronne Street 3 It is stipulated and agreed by and between
5
New Orleans, Louisiana 70113
ATTORNEY FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
4 counsel for the parties hereto
6 5 that the deposition of the aforementioned
7 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
(BY: JOHN WOODCOCK, ESQ.
6 witness is hereby being taken under the
8 JEFFREY P. EHRLICH, ESQ.) 7 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, for all
Post Office Box 888
9 Benjamin Franklin Station 8 purposes, in accordance with law;
Washington, D.C. 20004 9 That the formalities of reading and
10 ATTORNEY FOR UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA 10 signing are specifically not waived;
11
12
11 That the formalities of certification and
BURGLASS & TANKERSLEY 12 filing are specifically waived;
13 (BY: KEA SHERMAN, ESQ.)
5213 Airline Drive 13 That all objections, save those as to the
14 Metairie, Louisiana 70001 14 form of the question and the responsiveness of
ATTORNEYS FOR JEFFERSON PARISH
15 15 the answer, are hereby reserved until such
16
CHAFFE, MCCALL LLP
16 time as this deposition, or any part thereof,
17 (BY: JOHN ROBERT, ESQ.) 17 may be used or sought to be used in evidence.
2300 Energy Center
18 New Orleans, Louisiana 70163 18
ATTORNEYS FOR LAFARGE NORTH AMERICA 19 * * * *
19 (ALSO PRESENT)
20 20
21 MCCRANIE, SISTRUNK, ANZELMO, HARDY,
MAXWELL & MCDANIEL
21 ROGER D. JOHNS, RDR, CRR, Certified Court
22 (BY: KASSIE HARGIS, ESQ.) 22 Reporter for the State of Louisiana,
Suite 800
23 3445 North Causeway Blvd. 23 officiated in administering the oath to the
Metairie, Louisiana 70002 24 witness.
24 ATTORNEYS FOR ORLEANS LEVEE DISTRICT
25 25
Page 3 Page 5
1 1 INDEX
APPEARANCES CONTINUED: 2
3 PAGE
2 4
3 5 Exhibit Number 1........................... 10
DUPLASS, ZWAIN, BOURGEOIS, MORTON, PFISTER Exhibit Number 2........................... 23
4 & WEINSTOCK 6 Exhibit Number 3........................... 33
Exhibit 4.................................. 73
(BY: JOSEPH BEARDEN, III, ESQ.) 7 Page 1557.................................. 74
5 Suite 2900 NAD-1881538................................ 84
3838 North Causeway Blvd. 8 NAD-1881558................................ 89
6 Metairie, Louisiana 70002 Exhibit Number 5........................... 91
ATTORNEYS FOR EJLD/LBLD 9 MRGO-X-5728 through MRGO-X-5736............ 91
Exhibit Number 6.......................... 115
7 10 Exhibit Number 7.......................... 148
8 Bates numbered 10240034.001............... 149
9 11 10240001.001 and 002 and 003.............. 149
10 10230001.028.............................. 153
11 12 MRGO-Y-10388 through MRGO-Y-10401....... 153
Exhibit 8................................. 153
12 13 MRGO-Y-10389............................. 154
REPORTED BY: ROGER D. JOHNS, RMR, CRR, CSR 10230001.029.............................. 156
13 Certified Court Reporter, 14 123001.017................................ 158
State of Louisiana 10230001.020.............................. 160
14 15 10230001.020.............................. 160
10230001.023.............................. 161
15 16 1023001.004 and 05........................ 162
16 NAD-188000001529.......................... 163
17 17
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:................... 7
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. WOODCOCK:.............. 181
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:................. 188
20 19
21 20
22 21
23 22
23
24 24
25 25
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
Page 6 Page 8
1 VIDEO OPERATOR: 1 A. Yes.
2 This is the videotaped deposition 2 Q. -- and I will rephrase it so that
3 of Gatien Livaudais being held at 610 3 you can understand it.
4 Baronne Street, New Orleans, Louisiana 4 A. Yes.
5 on April 7, 2008 at the time indicated 5 Q. And you also are aware of the fact
6 on the video screen, which is 9:26. 6 that he's taking down a record as well as the
7 My name is Todd Meaux and I am a 7 fact that you're being videotaped --
8 Certified Legal Video Specialist with 8 A. Yes.
9 DepoVue. The Court Reporter is Roger 9 Q. -- so that you have to answer
10 Johns with Johns, Pendleton. 10 audibly so that he can take it down in the
11 Would Counsel please introduce 11 record.
12 themselves. 12 A. That's right.
13 MR. ANDRY: 13 Q. Okay. Could you give us a brief
14 Jonathan Andry on behalf of 14 history of where you were born and kind of
15 Norman Robinson and the Plaintiffs. 15 where you grew up?
16 MR. WOODCOCK: 16 A. I was born and grew up in St.
17 Jack Woodcock United States. 17 Bernard Parish at 4626 East St. Bernard
18 MR. EHRLICH: 18 Highway, and I am 65 years old. I went to
19 Jeff Ehrlich, United States. 19 school there in St. Bernard and then I went
20 MS. SHERMAN: 20 away to school; came back to St. Bernard in
21 Kea Sherman, Jefferson Parish. 21 1968 and have been there ever since.
22 MS. HARGIS: 22 Q. Okay. What year -- What's your
23 Kassie Hargis, Orleans Levee 23 birthday?
24 District, to observe. 24 A. April the 4th, 1943.
25 MR. ROBERT: 25 Q. And when you say you lived at -- Did
Page 7 Page 9
1 John Robert, Lafarge North 1 you grow up at 4626 St. Bernard Highway in
2 America, to observe. 2 Meraux?
3 MR. BEARDEN: 3 A. Basically that's where I grew up
4 Joseph Bearden, Lake Borgne Levee 4 until I went away to school.
5 District, also present observing. 5 Q. And when did you go away to school?
6 VIDEO OPERATOR: 6 What year was that?
7 Would you please swear in the 7 A. In 1961 I went to the University of
8 witness. 8 Southern Lou- -- Southwestern Louisiana and I
9 (Whereupon a discussion was held 9 graduated from there in 1965; got married in
10 off the record.) 10 1966; and lived in St. Bernard since then, or
11 GATIEN J. LIVAUDAIS, JR., 11 since 1968. We lived in Harvey for a while
12 4626 East St. Bernard Highway, Meraux, 12 and I was in the Army for a while.
13 Louisiana 70075, after being duly sworn, did 13 Q. From 1943 through 1961 did you live
14 testify as follows: 14 in Meraux?
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Livaudais, good morning. Thank 16 Q. And how were you employed during
17 you for appearing here and giving your 17 that time?
18 testimony. Have you ever given a deposition 18 A. From --
19 before? 19 Q. Let me go back. When you grew up --
20 A. Yes. 20 That was kind of a dumb question. From 1950
21 Q. So you understand that a deposition 21 or 1949, for example, -- from 1949 through,
22 is just I ask you questions, you answer to the 22 say, 1960, did you hunt and fish for fun?
23 best your ability, and to the extent that you 23 A. Yes.
24 don't understand a question, just let me know 24 Q. And where did you do that?
25 -- 25 A. Well, I was a very fortunate
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
Page 10 Page 12
1 individual. We had a corporation by the name 1 arpents of marsh land that went from the 40
2 of Borgnemouth Realty Company Limited that 2 Arpent line to Lake Borgne that was not
3 owned about 8,000, 9,000 acres in St. Bernard 3 included with Borgnemouth, but it was with the
4 and it was very pristine land at that time and 4 Livaudais family. Because it was my
5 it was just beautiful because everything was 5 grandfather who bought it.
6 right there in my backyard, so to speak. 6 Q. And for purposes of the record could
7 Q. And tell me, what was the 7 you take that red pen and draw on there
8 Borgnemouth Corporation? 8 approximately where that property you just
9 A. Borgnemouth Realty Corporation was a 9 told us about is?
10 company that was founded in 1904 by my 10 A. Certainly.
11 grandfather and nine other gentlemen for the 11 Q. Or was located?
12 purpose of developing subdivisions and also 12 A. (Writing). (Indicating). Anybody
13 for the purpose of trapping lands and things 13 want to look at it? It was directly adjacent
14 like that. 14 to Borgnemouth Realty.
15 Q. Let me show you an exhibit which -- 15 Q. Okay. And Borgnemouth Realty -- and
16 Let me show you a document which I'll mark as 16 the line you drew on there, the red line is --
17 Exhibit Number 1, which is a map that you 17 which boundary of the property, the additional
18 provided me, and ask if you could identify the 18 property that you just described, is that? I
19 map and then tell me what the map depicts. 19 see underneath it looks like on the --
20 A. Okay. This is a survey that was -- 20 A. That is on the far --
21 I can't read it -- Okay. This was done in 21 Q. That there's a parallel line
22 1910. This was a survey by -- And I can't 22 underneath that.
23 read who did it. It was probably Rodham. And 23 A. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. It
24 it depicts the property acquired by 24 should be right here at the 40 Arpent line.
25 Borgnemouth Realty in 1904 from the 25 This would be the 40 Arpent line, which is 40
Page 11 Page 13
1 Mississippi River all the way to Lake Borgne. 1 arpents from the river, and an arpent is a
2 It gives the acreage and it gives the high 2 French measurement which is 192 feet.
3 land and the marsh land. 3 Q. Okay. So the additional property
4 Q. Okay. And in looking at that 4 that you depict on here, that went from the 40
5 document, could you turn it around so that the 5 Arpent Canal --
6 camera, the video camera could see it? 6 A. To --
7 A. (Indicating). I don't know if he 7 Q. -- to Lake Borgne?
8 can pick it up. Can you pick it up? 8 A. To Lake Borgne.
9 VIDEO OPERATOR: 9 Q. Okay. And the line underneath the
10 I got it. 10 red line that you drew?
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 11 A. That would be the river and St.
12 Q. Okay. And did you see it? Show it 12 Bernard Highway.
13 to -- I showed it to them a little earlier. 13 Q. But right here (indicating). This
14 A. (Witness hands document to Counsel.) 14 line right here.
15 MR. WOODCOCK: 15 A. I made a mistake. That is not
16 (Counsel returns document.) 16 included. I should take that out (writing).
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 17 Q. Okay. Well, make that -- Okay.
18 Q. In looking at that, does that 18 Now, how did that land look as you first
19 depicted -- is it a true and accurate 19 remember it in the 1940s?
20 representation, approximate representation of 20 A. It was a very green cypress swamp
21 the land acquired by the Borgnemouth 21 that was so dense you could hardly see your
22 Corporation in 1904? 22 way through it. In fact, from the early '50s
23 A. That's correct. Now, the other -- 23 on, we were -- I was fortunate enough to be
24 the other part is, right next to Borgnemouth 24 involved with one of our trappers back there
25 on the north side, we had an additional four 25 who I was -- I followed around on this land
4 (Pages 10 to 13)
Page 14 Page 16
1 for years and we'd been out there in the marsh 1 remain at that same address?
2 digging pirogue trenasses and you couldn't 2 A. Yes.
3 even see them because of the moss that were 3 Q. And did you remain at that address
4 hanging down. You would have to know exactly 4 your entire life?
5 where you were going at the time. 5 A. Everything but about -- Everything
6 Q. Now, on this map, you have labeled 6 but about 18 years.
7 the -- and just for the purposes of the 7 Q. And that would be when you went to
8 record, you have labeled what would be the 8 college and then when you were in the
9 northern boundary with a red pen. 9 military?
10 A. That's correct. 10 A. And when I -- after I was married, I
11 Q. Could you highlight the southern 11 lived in another area of St. Bernard until
12 boundary of the Borgnemouth property with the 12 1985 and moved back down there.
13 pen also? 13 Q. Okay. But would it be fair to say
14 A. (Writing). 14 that throughout your lifetime on a consistent,
15 Q. Just so when I speak, and for the 15 almost daily, basis, you were in and around
16 purposes of the record, when I talk about the 16 the property owned by the Borgnemouth
17 property, I am talking about the property as 17 Corporation in between the two red lines --
18 depicted by the two -- or in between the two 18 A. Absolutely.
19 red lines -- 19 Q. -- on Livaudais Number 1?
20 A. The two red lines, correct. 20 A. Absolutely. My mother and father
21 Q. -- on Exhibit 1. 21 lived there, so it was basically -- I was
22 A. That's correct. 22 there all the time.
23 Q. What's is your first memory of that 23 Q. From what I have read, there was a
24 property? 24 hurricane in 1947. Were you familiar with
25 A. It was a very dense piece of 25 that event?
Page 15 Page 17
1 property and it had abundant game on it, fish, 1 A. Yes.
2 everything you could imagine. They had -- You 2 Q. And were you living at the location
3 could catch freshwater fish, saltwater fish; 3 depicted by the X --
4 ducks were there by the thousands and 4 A. That's correct.
5 thousands. In fact, at one point you had what 5 Q. -- in 1947? Could you describe the
6 they called -- From the north of this would be 6 1947 hurricane event for us as you remember
7 Bayou Bienvenue, and you had what they called 7 it?
8 the Bayou Bienvenue Scarsdale corridor, which 8 A. As I remember it. I was -- I was
9 used to winter well over a million ducks which 9 four years old. But it's a pretty vivid
10 would be included in this. Today you might 10 memory, because we had -- we didn't have real
11 went to 25,000 or 30,000. 11 extensive damage from the hurricane. We had a
12 Q. Okay. For the purposes of the 12 big pine tree in the yard that was down that
13 record, when you say "this", it's important 13 we had to cut out of the way to get out of the
14 that you identify specifically where you're 14 driveway. And we -- we walked on the -- On
15 talking about as best you can -- 15 the east -- On the east side of the road -- On
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 16 the northeast side of the road they had --
17 Q. -- consistent with that map. Could 17 This was part of Story Plantation and they had
18 you draw an X on the map where you were living 18 still at that point, they had a part of the
19 in the 1940s, say, from 1943 when you were 19 old sugar mill left. So my father and my two
20 born through 1950? 20 cousins who had come back from World War II
21 A. (Writing). 21 and were living with us decided that they
22 Q. Okay. And then draw a line from 22 could walk back there and see what damage was
23 that X down and say "1943 through 1950". 23 done to the -- to the barn I guess it was.
24 A. (Writing). 24 And as we were walking back there, this is
25 Q. And from 1950 to 1960, did you 25 after the hurricane had passed, we -- we could
5 (Pages 14 to 17)
Page 18 Page 20
1 see water coming from the back, which would be 1 A. It ran like that (indicating).
2 from the marsh towards the river. So we 2 Q. Instead of doing that with a red
3 turned around and went back home and the water 3 pen, could you draw that? And I have a black
4 hit the highway and then it went under the 4 Sharpie.
5 culverts and it came up out two feet, two and 5 A. Sure.
6 a half feet in the yard. And from there we 6 Q. Just draw it in with a black
7 went to my grandfather's house on Friscoville 7 Sharpie.
8 and stayed there a day or two and came back 8 A. (Writing).
9 home. 9 Actually, I guess I'm wrong. It
10 Q. Did you get any water in your house 10 ran like this (writing). Something like that
11 -- 11 (indicating).
12 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. And could you write on there
13 Q. -- in the '47 flood? 13 that that's the Southern Natural -- Write with
14 A. No. The house was built off the 14 this pen. I'm sorry. Write that's the
15 ground just like my house is today. 15 "Southern Natural Gas Pipeline canal"?
16 Q. Okay. And to the best of your 16 A. (Writing).
17 recollection, do you know how long the water 17 Q. When was that canal put in again?
18 remained after the 1947 -- or high water 18 In the '50s?
19 remained after the '47 hurricane? 19 A. In the '50s. Around 1955, '56.
20 A. About a day. 20 Q. And was it a continuous canal from
21 Q. And did the 1947 hurricane event 21 Lake Borgne all the way down?
22 change the area depicted by the two red -- the 22 A. This canal ran from -- on the west
23 Borgnemouth Corporation property as far as 23 bank of the river all the way through to
24 looks or any type -- in any way? 24 Lacombe, Louisiana.
25 A. No. It really didn't damage it. It 25 Q. Was it dammed in any kind of way?
Page 19 Page 21
1 didn't damage the marsh at that point. It 1 A. It was dammed. Every time it
2 basically stayed exactly the same. 2 crossed the bayou it was dammed.
3 Q. Were there many canals through that 3 Q. And why did they do that?
4 property? 4 A. For a couple of reasons. Number
5 A. No. When you're talking about 5 one, to keep the saltwater out, which was a
6 canals, you're talking about pipelines or are 6 limited amount at that time. And also to keep
7 you talking about natural bayous? 7 the constant erosion away from any tidal
8 Q. Let's talk about pipelines. When, 8 movement. And it worked perfectly well at
9 to your recollection, were any pipelines cut 9 that point.
10 in the Borgnemouth property? 10 Q. And let me ask you, based on your
11 A. That was in the '50s. Probably 11 visual observations and your experience about
12 around 1956, '55 or '56. 12 being there every day or the times that you
13 Q. And which canal was that? 13 were there, did the installation of the
14 A. That was the United -- That was 14 Southern Natural Gas canal change the marsh or
15 SONAT. Southern Natural Gas. 15 hardwood swamp in the Borgnemouth property, if
16 Q. And how did the Southern Natural Gas 16 at all?
17 canal run geographically as best you can tell 17 A. Not at that point. Because it was
18 us? 18 dammed.
19 A. It ran east-west. Or basically -- 19 Q. Okay. Did you observe any changes
20 I'm sorry. Let me turn this thing 20 in the marsh vegetation after the installation
21 off. 21 of the Southern Natural Gas pipeline?
22 It ran basically I guess 22 A. Not at that point, no. Until the
23 north-south. 23 dam was removed.
24 Q. So in looking at that, it would run 24 Q. When was the dam removed?
25 -- 25 A. Probably 1975, '76. They laid
6 (Pages 18 to 21)
Page 22 Page 24
1 another pipeline in it. And then that was a 1 looking for to the exact line. But for
2 major -- you could see a major difference 2 purposes of the record, I want to make sure
3 then, because the saltwater got in. 3 that we can have some reference point between
4 Q. Okay. Was that a -- Prior to 1950, 4 Exhibit Number 1 and Number 2.
5 was the Borgnemouth property a marsh land or 5 A. (Writing). Something similar to
6 was it a hardwood swamp? 6 that is about the best I can do (indicating).
7 A. It was a combination of both. In a 7 Because they really don't have any
8 freshwater environment, you have an area that 8 distinguishing landmarks. I know what I am
9 goes from a cypress swamp into -- or an 9 looking at because it's -- It just doesn't
10 ecosystem actually. You have a situation that 10 have the canals.
11 goes from a freshwater environment to an 11 Q. Okay. That's fair enough.
12 intermediate to a brackish, and the -- you 12 Now, other than the Southern
13 could follow the whole track of it right there 13 Natural Gas -- or did the Southern Natural Gas
14 with your cypress swamp which needed the fresh 14 pipeline change any of the types of swamp or
15 water, because the cypress can't live in 15 marsh that were contained in the Borgnemouth
16 saltwater, and you needed -- then you had your 16 property?
17 intermediate; then you had your brackish marsh 17 A. Not at that point.
18 which would be closer out by Lake Borgne. But 18 Q. And --
19 the brackish marsh was nothing like it is 19 MR. WOODCOCK:
20 today. 20 Just to be clear, at what point?
21 Q. Let me show you another map that was 21 MR. ANDRY:
22 part of -- was taken out of the report of the 22 What?
23 Environmental Subcommittee to the MRGO 23 MR. WOODCOCK:
24 Technical Committee, March 16, 2000, and it 24 At what point?
25 came specifically from -- It's a report by the 25 MR. ANDRY:
Page 23 Page 25
1 Corps of Engineers, but I am looking for the 1 We'll get to that. That's about
2 specific title. "The habitat impacts of the 2 1960, 1970 after the MRGO. But I'll
3 construction of the MRGO" dated December, 3 ask him about that.
4 1999, prepared by the New Orleans District 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
5 Corps of Engineers for the Environmental 5 Q. Were there any other canals in the
6 Subcommittee of the Technical Committee 6 area in the '50s that were pipeline canals?
7 convened by EPA in response to St. Bernard 7 A. No.
8 Parish Council Resolution 1298. And this 8 Q. Outside of the Borgnemouth property
9 diagram, which I'll mark as Exhibit Number 2, 9 specifically, did you have occasion to go and
10 it's figure 2, and ask if that description 10 fish and traverse the other areas of marsh and
11 identifies the different marsh types that you 11 swamp that were depicted in Exhibit Number 2?
12 described to us just a few minutes ago in the 12 A. Yes.
13 Borgnemouth property area. 13 Q. So would you say that you had -- and
14 A. Exactly. It has your cypress swamp, 14 how often would you go into those areas in
15 which is your fresh marsh; and you have your 15 marsh -- the marsh and swamp areas depicted in
16 fresh intermediate marsh; and then your 16 Exhibit Number 2 outside of the parameters of
17 brackish marsh, which comes out closer to Lake 17 the Borgnemouth property?
18 Borgne. 18 MR. WOODCOCK:
19 Q. Okay. And could you draw on Exhibit 19 I'm going --
20 Number 2 the area that would have been -- or 20 THE WITNESS:
21 that was owned by the Borgnemouth 21 From --
22 Corporation? 22 MR. WOODCOCK:
23 A. I really -- Going by this, I really 23 -- to object as to vague because
24 couldn't distinguish it exactly accurate. 24 this is a huge swath of map here, and
25 Q. Well, just approximately. We're not 25 if he can narrow it down a little bit.
7 (Pages 22 to 25)
Page 26 Page 28
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 1 smaller pipelines that were put in in the '60s
2 Q. You can answer subject to the 2 and the '70s. Nothing to the extent of the
3 objection. 3 Southern Natural Gas pipeline.
4 A. Probably once a month or so. 4 Q. Prior to 1960, were there -- Between
5 Q. Okay. I'll do -- For the purposes 5 1950 and 1960, what, if any, gas pipeline
6 of our understanding, in order to address any 6 canals were put into the area bounded by St.
7 concerns that you may have, we'll go from 7 Bernard Highway -- excuse me, bounded by the
8 Bayou Bienvenue around Paris Road to Lake 8 Mississippi River, Lake Borgne, Bayou
9 Borgne to Yscloskey and then St. Bernard 9 Bienvenue, and Yscloskey?
10 Highway. Are you familiar with that area? 10 A. None I know of.
11 A. Yes. 11 Q. From 1960 to 1963 -- 1965, excuse
12 Q. Would you consider yourself to be 12 me, how many, if any, natural gas or gas
13 very familiar with that area? 13 pipeline canals were put into the area between
14 A. Yes. 14 Paris Road, St. Bernard Highway, Lake Borgne,
15 Q. Did you grow up in and -- Did you 15 and Hopedale?
16 grow up in that area? 16 A. None I know of.
17 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are you familiar with a canal work
18 Q. Okay. Now, in that area, the area 18 that was done in 1935 by I believe L and H
19 which would be Paris Road, Lake Borgne, 19 Coal Company? Did I get that right?
20 Hopedale, and the Mississippi River, were 20 A. Alabama Coal Company.
21 there any other natural gas canals other than 21 Q. Alabama Coal Company.
22 the Southern Natural Gas canal? 22 A. Yes.
23 A. In 1955 -- From 1955 back, no. Not 23 Q. I'm sorry. Could you describe what
24 that I know of. 24 was done by Alabama Coal Company in the 1930s?
25 Q. From 1955 forward, was there an 25 A. I think it was before that.
Page 27 Page 29
1 extensive amount of, or any, pipeline canals 1 MR. WOODCOCK:
2 that were placed into the area bounded by Lake 2 Objection. Speculation.
3 Borgne, St. Bernard Highway, Hopedale, 3 THE WITNESS:
4 Yscloskey, and Paris Road? 4 I know it was before that.
5 MR. WOODCOCK: 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
6 Objection. Vague. 1955 6 Q. Okay. You can answer subject to the
7 forward? 7 objection.
8 MR. ANDRY: 8 A. Okay. The Alabama Coal Company was
9 If you want to be deposed, we can 9 shipping coal from Mobile to different various
10 take your deposition. Just make an 10 areas into the New Orleans area and they cut
11 objection to the form. 11 the Bayou Dupre to make a straight cut from
12 MR. WOODCOCK: 12 Lake Borgne in towards Violet to the
13 Okay. 13 Mississippi River because they had a big, big,
14 MR. ANDRY: 14 big bend in the canal. They kind of
15 And then that's the proper 15 straightened that canal out. And it would
16 procedure. 16 show it on this map more (indicating). If you
17 MR. WOODCOCK: 17 can see right there (indicating). That big
18 Exactly. 18 hump. I'm sorry, this one right here actually
19 MR. ANDRY: 19 (Indicating).
20 Make an objection to the form. 20 Q. So in approximately the 19- --
21 Okay? Just object to the form. 21 A. They cut it straight.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 22 Q. --'30s the coal company straightened
23 Q. You can answer subject to the 23 out the bend in Bayou Dupre --
24 objection. 24 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
25 A. From 1955 forward, you had some 25 Q. -- close to or in proximity to the
8 (Pages 26 to 29)
Page 30 Page 32
1 southern side of Lake Borgne? 1 tide water channel being dug into the area or
2 A. That's correct. 2 through the area owned by the Borgnemouth
3 Q. Near the location of the Martello 3 Corporation?
4 Castle. Is that correct? 4 A. Probably 1956.
5 A. That's correct. That's -- They had 5 Q. And what did you hear when you first
6 a terminal in Violet and they also went -- 6 heard about the canal?
7 they had a locks in the river and they went 7 A. We were told that it was going to be
8 straight through the river and went about 8 a bonanza for St. Bernard. That it was going
9 their business on either upriver or downriver 9 to provide industry, jobs, and it was going to
10 with whatever coal they had left. 10 be the new frontier for commerce.
11 Q. In the property owned by the 11 Q. Were you told that it was going to
12 Borgnemouth Corporation, would it be fair to 12 be the -- that it was going to make St.
13 say, since you have testified about the marsh 13 Bernard the industrial frontier of the Gulf
14 area owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation and 14 South?
15 the state of the marsh area being a healthy 15 A. That's correct.
16 green marsh I believe is what you specifically 16 MR. WOODCOCK:
17 testified, would it be fair to say that based 17 Objection, leading.
18 on your daily experience or your experience in 18 MR. ANDRY:
19 that area, that the canal work done by the 19 That's not leading. But go
20 coal company had little, if any, effect on the 20 ahead. You can object. And let me --
21 marsh ecosystem? 21 Could you read back the question
22 MR. WOODCOCK: 22 so we have a clean question and
23 Objection, leading. 23 answer?
24 THE WITNESS: 24 (Requested question read back.)
25 That is a true statement. 25 THE WITNESS:
Page 31 Page 33
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 1 That's correct.
2 Q. Is that correct? 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
3 A. That would be a true statement. 3 Q. Who told you that?
4 Q. Other than the Southern Natural Gas 4 A. That was basically what the
5 pipeline and the work done by the coal company 5 politicians were saying at the time. The
6 on Bayou Dupre in proximity to Lake Borgne, 6 national politicians.
7 were there any other canals that were done -- 7 Q. Have you ever seen the statement of
8 that were dug by man in the property owned by 8 Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Commission
9 the Borgnemouth Corporation? 9 relative to the New Orleans -- to the Gulf
10 A. What were the parameters? 10 tide water channel?
11 Q. Other than the Southern Natural Gas 11 A. Yes.
12 canal -- 12 Q. And let me show you the document
13 A. The years? 13 that I'll mark as Exhibit Number 3 and ask if
14 Q. -- work in, say, in the -- between 14 you can identify that.
15 '40 and '60. 15 A. Yes.
16 A. Probably in the '60s. Not in 1960. 16 Q. Okay. Could you tell me what that
17 But it was started in 1960. They started on 17 is?
18 what they called the retainer canal. 18 A. This is a statement paper written by
19 Q. And what was the retainer canal? 19 the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and
20 A. The retainer canal was the canal 20 Fisheries concerning the Gulf tide water
21 they dug for the MRGO to stop the spoil 21 channel. This was a statement that basically
22 disposal from going into the marsh. 22 said how it was going to change the habitat of
23 Q. Well, before we get to that, when 23 the entire area that this thing was dug
24 was the first time that you were aware of or 24 through.
25 that you remember hearing anything about a 25 Q. And when did you first come into
9 (Pages 30 to 33)
Page 34 Page 36
1 possession of that document? 1 Q. Yes. Like what were you doing?
2 A. Probably two years ago. 2 Describe those events as best you can recall.
3 Q. And how did you come into possession 3 A. Well, basically I was either with
4 of that document? 4 the trapper that we had working for us at the
5 A. It was given to me by a retired 5 time, who would be out there every day, and
6 employee of the Wildlife and Fisheries. 6 kind of just monitoring what they were doing
7 Q. What was that gentleman's name? 7 out of curiosity.
8 A. His name is Mr. Allen Ensminger, E N 8 Q. And when you say "they", do you know
9 S M I N G E R. 9 who "they" was?
10 Q. And let's go back. What was your 10 A. The Corps of Destruction.
11 role in the Borgnemouth Corporation when you 11 Q. The Corps of Destruction, and that
12 first heard, if any, when you first heard 12 would be the Corps of Engineers?
13 about the proposed tide water channel which 13 A. The Corps of Engineers.
14 was later the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 14 Q. Did you notice any changes in the
15 A. My role was nothing. My father was 15 area owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation when
16 the secretary-treasurer of Borgnemouth at the 16 you observed the digging of the spoil canal?
17 time, and his father was the president. 17 A. Not at that point. It was -- I
18 Q. Okay. And did your father ever 18 mean, they were just another canal at that
19 communicate to you what, if anything, was 19 point. They still didn't have the destruction
20 going to be required from the Borgnemouth 20 that you have now.
21 company for the tide water channel which later 21 Q. And how wide a canal was the spoil
22 became the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 22 canal as it went through the Borgnemouth
23 A. Yes. 23 property when you observed them digging it?
24 Q. And what did your father communicate 24 A. Probably 75 to 100 feet.
25 to you? 25 Q. And what type of machinery were they
Page 35 Page 37
1 A. Basically what I just said. That it 1 using to dig the spoil canal as it went
2 was going to be a big bonanza for the economy 2 through the Borgnemouth property when you
3 of St. Bernard and the metropolitan area. 3 observed it?
4 Q. When did they first begin work on 4 A. Spud barge with a bucket dredge.
5 the Borgnemouth property, to the best of your 5 Q. And could you describe what that is
6 knowledge, for the tide water channel later to 6 for the purposes of the record?
7 be known as the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 7 A. Sure. It's a machine mounted on a
8 A. Probably 1958 was when they started 8 barge, a dredge, or a crane, so to speak, that
9 digging all the channels -- all the canals, 9 has a grab bucket on the front of it or a clam
10 rather, the -- the canal -- basically the 10 bucket that either -- you can do it this way
11 retainer canal as we call it, or some people 11 (indicating), or drag bucket. And they were
12 call it the spoil canal or the dike canal. 12 dredging the canal and putting the levee so
13 All of them are the same canal. 13 the -- for the spoil to -- In other words,
14 Q. Did you see the digging of the spoil 14 what they were doing was they were digging a
15 canal? 15 canal, putting a levee up where the spoil
16 A. Yes. 16 wouldn't come into the marsh.
17 Q. How often or how many times did you 17 Q. What happened after they dug the
18 see the digging of the spoil canal? 18 spoil canal?
19 A. Probably -- At that particular time, 19 A. They then started with their suction
20 probably pretty often. Maybe once or twice a 20 dredges on the Gulf Outlet and started pumping
21 week or more. 21 the spoil into this area.
22 Q. And could you tell us about how you 22 Q. At that time was there land on the
23 saw or watched the digging of the canal? The 23 north side of the area cut -- the MRGO that
24 spoil canal. 24 was cut in? In between the -- In between Lake
25 A. How I saw it? 25 Borgne -- Was there land in between Lake
10 (Pages 34 to 37)
Page 38 Page 40
1 Borgne and the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet 1 A. I am not as familiar with Bayou
2 on the north side? 2 Yscloskey as I am with the -- the other
3 A. Absolutely. Quite a bit of land. 3 areas. But it -- as far as I can recall,
4 Q. And could you describe how that land 4 because we used to go down there quite a bit,
5 -- as far as the type of land? Was it, you 5 it was a very pretty bayou.
6 know -- What did it have on it? Could you 6 Q. And that's Bayou Yscloskey is
7 describe that land to us? 7 farther south --
8 A. The land that was there was 8 A. Right.
9 basically the same as the land on the other 9 Q. -- than Bayou Dupre?
10 side of the spoil canal. It was marsh. And 10 A. That's correct.
11 on the lake shore you had a rim, which would 11 Q. And what about Bayou LaLoutre; were
12 be called a lake rim, which consisted of 12 you familiar with Bayou LaLoutre in the '40s
13 clamshells and it was very, very thick with 13 and the '50s?
14 roso cane. 14 A. Probably in the '50s and the '60s,
15 Q. Is roso cane a freshwater plant, to 15 yes.
16 your knowledge? 16 Q. And could you describe the banks of
17 A. Not to my knowledge. 17 Bayou LaLoutre in the '50s and the '60s as you
18 Q. Okay. And did they have any trees 18 remember them?
19 on the lake ridge? 19 A. They were extremely high. At that
20 A. They had a lot of trees. They had 20 point you had the Magnolia -- or the LaLoutre
21 -- In some areas you had some oak trees that 21 ridge which was growing there. Well, I say
22 was growing fairly well. Very well, in fact. 22 growing. It was there. And it was a very
23 You had several little bayous there that had a 23 viable oak ridge. My cousins conned me,
24 lot of trees on them because you had a little 24 because I had a boat, into going out that way
25 bit higher elevation. And further down around 25 years and years ago to look at the Indian
Page 39 Page 41
1 Bayou St. Milo and that, you had these Indian 1 mounds.
2 mounds that you had a lot of trees on. All of 2 Q. And the Indian mounds were on the
3 these things now are out of sight. You can't 3 southern shore of Lake Borgne and on the
4 even see them. 4 northern side of Bayou LaLoutre? Is that
5 Q. And where is Bayou St. Milo? 5 correct?
6 A. Bayou St. Milo is on the other side 6 A. They were on Bayou St. Milo.
7 of Proctor's Point. Actually below Shell 7 Q. Isn't it correct that Bayou St. Milo
8 Beach. 8 comes off of Bayou LaLoutre?
9 Q. Okay. And let's go up to Paris 9 A. That's correct.
10 Road. There's Bayou Bienvenue. 10 Q. So that would be -- If you were to
11 A. Right. 11 draw a circle on Exhibit 1, about the
12 Q. Is that correct? 12 approximate location where the Indian mounds
13 A. That's correct. 13 were, could you do that for us?
14 Q. It traverses the area where the MRGO 14 A. No, because it doesn't go far
15 is now. Is that correct? 15 enough.
16 A. Correct. And Bayou Bienvenue also 16 Q. Okay. Let me see. I'll get -- take
17 had a lot of trees on it. 17 a break in a few minutes and I'll get a map
18 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a Bayou 18 that we can do that.
19 Dupre? 19 A. But they do have an Indian mound on
20 A. Bayou Dupre, that's also Violet 20 this map.
21 Canal. They had an unbelievable amount of oak 21 Q. Where would that be? That would be
22 trees growing along Bayou Dupre. Live oak 22 on figure 1? Excuse me, Exhibit Number 1?
23 trees. That made it a very, very pretty 23 A. Exhibit Number 1. They do have an
24 bayou. 24 Indian mound on it. (Writing).
25 Q. What about Bayou Yscloskey? 25 Q. Okay. Could you write on there
11 (Pages 38 to 41)
Page 42 Page 44
1 "Indian mound"? 1 except the Mississippi River levee in St.
2 A. (Writing). 2 Bernard Parish.
3 Q. And could you describe for the 3 Q. Okay. Were the banks of Bayou
4 record what an Indian mound was as best you 4 LaLoutre higher than the adjacent land?
5 know? 5 A. Much higher.
6 A. An Indian mound was a shell bed that 6 Q. When you say "much higher", could
7 were made by these Indians who were -- they 7 you --
8 dug these clamshells and that's what made 8 A. About ten feet higher.
9 these mounds, and they used the -- they ate 9 Q. About ten feet. About how far from
10 the clams. 10 the bank of Bayou LaLoutre did the ridge
11 Q. And how big an area was comprised by 11 extend?
12 the Indian mounds? 12 A. It was probably 150 feet wide.
13 A. Some were very large. Some were 13 Q. And did it have oak trees across?
14 pretty small. Depending on the extent of the 14 A. Oak trees, everything you can
15 Indians. But this one was a fairly large 15 imagine. Oak trees, cypress trees. It had
16 mound and, in fact, before the channel was dug 16 juniper trees on it.
17 they had a camp on the Indian mound. 17 Q. And --
18 Q. Okay. Prior to 1960, how did the 18 A. Palmettos.
19 Bayou LaLoutre, Bayou Yscloskey, Bayou 19 Q. And you make that statement because
20 Bienvenue, and Bayou Dupre ridges relate to 20 you -- because of your experience in fishing
21 each other? 21 and hunting in that area?
22 A. Prior to 1960, these ridges were 22 A. I saw it. That's correct.
23 your -- Well, basically they were -- Part of 23 Q. Okay. And did that ridge that you
24 them were tributaries of the Mississippi 24 just described run the entire length of Bayou
25 River. So you had a mound or a levee, so to 25 LaLoutre?
Page 43 Page 45
1 speak, on the -- on them. They had a 1 A. That, I don't know. Because I never
2 tremendous influence in your tidal surges. 2 went the entire length.
3 They slowed the tidal surges down. 3 Q. Okay. Approximately how far?
4 Q. Other than the 1947 hurricane event, 4 A. I know it went all the way to Bayou
5 did you ever witness severe storms in that 5 St. Milo.
6 area? 6 Q. Is Bayou St. Milo on the northern
7 A. Of course. 7 side of the Mississippi -- of what's today the
8 Q. Prior to 1965, did you ever 8 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet or on the
9 experience flooding on St. Bernard Highway -- 9 southern side of what's today the Mississippi
10 A. No. 10 River Gulf Outlet?
11 Q. -- other than the 1947 event we 11 A. The northern side.
12 talked about? 12 Q. So you would have experience then of
13 A. No. 13 being in Bayou LaLoutre and going all the way
14 Q. And am I correct based -- I mean, I 14 down Bayou LaLoutre and crossing over the area
15 don't want to -- but that you testified that 15 which is now occupied by the Mississippi River
16 the water came up about two feet in and around 16 Gulf Outlet; is that correct?
17 the St. Bernard Highway area where you were 17 A. That's correct.
18 living at the time as depicted by the X on 18 Q. So then it would be fair to say,
19 Exhibit Number 1. 19 based on your testimony, that the Bayou
20 A. That's correct. That's correct. 20 LaLoutre ridge extended at least past where,
21 But you have to remember there, in 1947 you 21 based on your observations, the Mississippi
22 had no levee at all. 22 River Gulf Outlet is today?
23 Q. When you say you had no levee at 23 A. Absolutely.
24 all, what are you talking about? 24 Q. Could you describe the banks of
25 A. In 1947 you never had any levee 25 Bayou Yscloskey?
12 (Pages 42 to 45)
Page 46 Page 48
1 A. Not really qualified to do that. 1 Q. When you say they were higher, the
2 Q. Okay. Based on your observations, 2 banks of Bayou Dupre were higher, how much
3 do you remember the banks of Bayou Yscloskey? 3 higher were they than the surrounding land?
4 A. Not really. As far as the -- When 4 A. Probably three feet.
5 it went on the other side of the -- anywhere 5 Q. And how far from the bayou itself
6 from going -- I mean, I can remember where 6 did the high ridge run?
7 Shell Beach was, and it was on the other side 7 A. Probably 150 feet.
8 of the Gulf Outlet, on the north side of the 8 Q. And did the palmettos and other
9 Gulf Outlet. I remember going there a lot. 9 vegetation you described as being on the
10 And yeah, the banks were significant there. 10 banks, did that extend out for the 150 feet
11 They had a highway going there. 11 also?
12 Q. Shell Beach was on the other side of 12 A. Yes. It extended actually further
13 what's today occupied by the Mississippi River 13 than that, because you also had ridges in the
14 Gulf Outlet? 14 marsh itself that you had palmettos on. Any
15 A. Absolutely. 15 place they had any high ground, you had
16 Q. When you say the other side, that 16 palmettos.
17 would be the northern side? 17 Q. Okay. Did you have cypress trees
18 A. That's correct. 18 also?
19 Q. And was there a road that ran all 19 A. Yes.
20 the way to Shell Beach? 20 Q. Were the palmettos and cypress trees
21 A. The road is still there. You can 21 occupying the same territory?
22 see parts of it. 22 A. Yes and no. The palmettos only
23 Q. Was the road cut by the installation 23 occupied the higher area. The cypress trees
24 of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 24 covered everything.
25 A. Absolutely. 25 Q. Is a palmetto a type of palm tree?
Page 47 Page 49
1 Q. Was there a railroad that went down 1 A. I guess so.
2 to Shell Beach? 2 Q. Could you describe the banks of
3 A. A little bit before my time, but 3 Bayou Bienvenue to the extent that you were
4 there was a railroad from what I understand. 4 familiar with them in the '50s and '60s?
5 Q. Did you ever observe or see any of 5 A. I'm really not that familiar with
6 the tracks for the railroad that went to Shell 6 Bayou Bienvenue's banks in the '50s and '60s.
7 Beach in your lifetime? 7 Q. Okay. When you talked about high
8 A. No. 8 ground, how many spots of high ground would
9 Q. Could you describe the -- Let me -- 9 you say you remembered in the area owned by
10 We have been going at it now for an hour 10 the Borgnemouth Corporation in the '50s and
11 approximately. If you need to take a break or 11 '60s?
12 get a cup of coffee or anything like that, let 12 A. Boy, it was all higher than it is
13 me know. Because I'll just keep going. So 13 today. You had areas in there that had these
14 tell me if you need to take a break. 14 drains that were used for logging. They were
15 A. Go ahead. 15 -- You had little spoil banks on the sides of
16 Q. But could you describe the banks of 16 them that were high that would go for miles in
17 Bayou Dupre as you remember them in the '40s 17 the swamp. You had these ridges that were
18 and '50s? 18 natural ridges because of the flow of the
19 A. Sure. Both banks of Violet Canal or 19 water. This -- The Violet Canal or Bayou
20 Bayou Dupre or Filipon Canal, which also it's 20 Dupre had a lock, as I said earlier, where it
21 called, were much higher than they are today. 21 got river water when the lock would be
22 They had a lot of oak trees on them. They had 22 opened. It would get river water in there.
23 a lot of Palmettos on them. They were very 23 And even when the lock was closed, it still
24 thick vegetation-wise. All the way out to 24 had a trickle of river water all the way
25 Lake Borgne. 25 always. So you had a pretty good flow of
13 (Pages 46 to 49)
Page 50 Page 52
1 water through it that you got sediment that 1 Q. So the spoil canal cut through the
2 built these little ridges up. 2 ridge at Bayou Bienvenue, Bayou Dupre, Bayou
3 Q. When was the lock in the Violet 3 LaLoutre, and Bayou Yscloskey?
4 Canal and the river closed? 4 A. That's correct.
5 A. I am going to say 1951 or '52. 5 Q. Do you know what year the spoil
6 Q. Did the closing of the lock at the 6 canal was dug?
7 Violet Canal change the complexion or 7 A. I want to say it was started in
8 vegetation of the land occupied by the 8 around 1957, '58, and it was probably
9 Borgnemouth Corporation? 9 completed in 1961 or '62.
10 A. It didn't change the land as much as 10 Q. And do you know who was on the St.
11 it changed the waterways. 11 Bernard Parish Police Jury in 1957?
12 Q. Did it kill any vegetation that you 12 A. I probably do, but I don't remember
13 witnessed? 13 right now.
14 A. Only in the waterways where it was 14 Q. After the spoil canal was completed,
15 growing with the freshwater grasses like your 15 what changes, if any, did you notice in the
16 alligator grass and that kind of stuff. It -- 16 marsh area and the land that was owned by the
17 It wasn't any more prevalent than it is today, 17 Borgnemouth Corporation?
18 because you didn't have that flow of river 18 A. As I said before, at that particular
19 water through there any more. 19 time there wasn't a lot of change. The only
20 Q. Okay. When they built the access 20 change was inside that spoil pit that they
21 channel to the, or not -- excuse me, not the 21 made. That was a drastic change.
22 access channel. I believe you called it the 22 Q. Okay. And the spoil pit, could you
23 spoil canal. 23 describe what that was?
24 A. Spoil canal. 24 A. Yes. This was the area that they
25 Q. When they dug the spoil canal across 25 were pumping the spoil, the mud that they were
Page 51 Page 53
1 the property owned by the Borgnemouth 1 digging with these suction dredges into from
2 Corporation, did that cut through the Violet 2 the area they were digging the Gulf Outlet.
3 Canal ridge that you just described? 3 It was a 4,000 foot wide area that went for
4 A. Yes. 4 miles all the way from start to finish.
5 Q. What did they do when they cut 5 Q. And was that before or after the
6 through the ridge? "They" being the Corps. 6 digging of the spoil canal?
7 What did the Corps do when it cut through the 7 A. This was after.
8 ridge? 8 Q. Okay. So is it your testimony that
9 A. Just cut through the ridge. They 9 the digging of the spoil canal changed or
10 made no provision for anything. 10 didn't change -- Let me ask it this way. Did
11 Q. And you talked a little earlier 11 the digging of the spoil canal change the
12 about the natural gas pipeline being dammed at 12 vegetation or complexion of the area owned by
13 the canals. Did they dam the Violet Canal -- 13 the Borgnemouth Realty company?
14 A. No. 14 A. That 4,000 foot area that
15 Q. -- when they cut through it? 15 transferred all the way across Borgnemouth was
16 A. No. 16 drastically changed. The rest of it, except
17 Q. When they built the access, or the 17 where they were digging the Gulf Outlet, was
18 spoil canal, did they build the spoil canal 18 not changed at that particular time.
19 from -- or did it traverse the area that we 19 Q. Okay. Well, what I was trying to do
20 talked about earlier, which would be Bayou 20 with my question, maybe I didn't do it
21 Bienvenue to Hopedale? 21 artfully enough, was just to ask you to
22 A. In the spoil canal you could go from 22 attempt to isolate what damage, if any, was
23 Bayou Bienvenue to Shell Beach and then pick 23 caused by the digging of the spoil canal. And
24 up the rest of it from Shell Beach all the way 24 so when did they start to dig the actual
25 out to the Gulf. 25 access channel for the Gulf Outlet itself?
14 (Pages 50 to 53)
Page 54 Page 56
1 A. Probably 1957, '58 they started. 1 looked like?
2 Q. And did they start at the area 2 A. It was very sad to see this dredge
3 called -- did they start by widening the Gulf 3 just taking 500 foot wide of property and
4 Intracoastal Waterway? 4 making a wide canal out of it.
5 A. That's where they started, from what 5 Q. And where the canal traversed the
6 I can recall. 6 Borgnemouth Realty property, were there any
7 Q. Did you ever go out and watch them 7 trees on that land?
8 widen the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway in -- 8 A. Yes.
9 when it first -- when they were first 9 Q. What type of trees were there?
10 beginning the suction of the Gulf Outlet? 10 A. Mostly oak trees. They had a few
11 A. When they were first digging it, I 11 different, like elm trees and oak trees and
12 was -- I was kind of young, but I had a friend 12 stuff like that that was living out there.
13 of mine who had a boat out that way and we 13 Q. Did they knock down and take out the
14 used to go skiing there and you could watch 14 oak trees?
15 it. I mean, we used to go quite a bit. You 15 A. They cut them down.
16 could watch the thing getting bigger and 16 Q. And let me ask you this. In 19-,
17 bigger every time we went. Yeah. 17 say 1960 to 1963 immediately prior to the
18 Q. And what year, if you remember, was 18 digging of the Gulf Outlet --
19 it that they got to digging the Gulf Outlet 19 A. That was --
20 across the property owned by the Borgnemouth 20 Q. Well, right before -- Let's do
21 Corporation? 21 this. Right before the building of the Gulf
22 A. Probably 1960. '59, '60, somewhere 22 Outlet, was the property owned by the
23 in there. 23 Borgnemouth Corporation, as best you can
24 Q. And what changes -- That's kind of a 24 remember, similar to the area of property that
25 broad -- Did the digging of the Gulf Outlet 25 we talked about that's been bounded by the
Page 55 Page 57
1 change the complexion or vegetation of the 1 Paris Road, Bayou Bienvenue, Hopedale, Lake
2 area owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation? 2 Borgne, and the Mississippi River?
3 A. Parts of it changed, like I said. 3 A. In 1963, except for the spoil area
4 The spoil area, which is what we referred to 4 and the canal they dug and the channel they
5 as that 4,000 wide foot area that they used to 5 dug, the area was basically the same. It had
6 put the spoil, that grass particularly 6 not changed at that point drastically.
7 changed. That became a desert. That became 7 Q. Right. But prior to that, like if
8 as barren as the top of this table. Nothing 8 you were on the Borgnemouth property, it was
9 was growing on it because of the salt that 9 the same as the property all the way up to
10 they were digging. And the salt came from 10 Bayou Bienvenue?
11 these salt deposits that were underground. 11 A. Correct.
12 And you could actually see in places on the 12 Q. Like if they had -- The oak trees
13 spoil area where it would be deposited. You 13 didn't stop right on the edge of the
14 could go there and take and stick your finger 14 Borgnemouth property?
15 in it, you could taste the salt. 15 A. No.
16 Q. And did you ever have occasion to do 16 Q. It was the same type of vegetation
17 that when you were going? 17 --
18 A. Yes. 18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Did you go watch them dredge the 19 Q. -- type of land?
20 Gulf Outlet itself -- 20 A. That's correct.
21 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is that right?
22 Q. -- on the property owned by the 22 A. That's correct.
23 Borgnemouth Corporation? 23 Q. Okay. And then after they cut the
24 A. Yes. 24 Gulf Outlet in, what changes, other than the
25 Q. And could you tell us what that 25 spoil area, did you notice on the property
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
Page 58 Page 60
1 owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation? 1 grasses.
2 A. The changes were gradual at that 2 Q. When you say very rapid, was it a
3 point. From 1963 to '65 it was a very gradual 3 period of two months or was it a period of a
4 change. 4 year?
5 Q. Okay. And what was the gradual 5 A. Probably a year.
6 change that you noticed? 6 Q. Was there any other vegetation
7 A. You had more saltwater coming in. 7 losses that you noticed subsequent to the
8 You had a die-off of plants that could only 8 building of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
9 live in fresh water. You had -- It was 9 A. You lost your three corner grass,
10 adversely affecting cypress trees at that 10 which was the vital grass for your -- your
11 particular time. 11 trapping industry at that particular time with
12 Q. How did you know that there was more 12 the muskrat.
13 saltwater coming in? 13 Q. How rapid was the loss of the three
14 A. You could taste it. 14 corner grass?
15 Q. And when you say you could taste it, 15 A. It was not as rapid as the alligator
16 could you tell -- did you have occasion to 16 grass, but it was very obvious that it was not
17 taste the water? 17 surviving as well as it could.
18 A. You stick your finger in the water 18 Q. And when did you first notice the
19 and put it in your mouth, yes. 19 loss of the alligator grass?
20 Q. And did you do that? 20 A. It was pretty evident right away.
21 A. Yes. 21 Because you just didn't see it any more. I
22 Q. On a regular basis? 22 mean, it was gone.
23 A. Not on a regular basis, but you 23 Q. Did you have any discussion with any
24 could even taste it -- if you got spray in 24 personnel or representatives or members of the
25 your face, you could taste the salt. 25 Corps of Engineers at that time --
Page 59 Page 61
1 Q. Well, if you were water skiing, for 1 A. No.
2 example, you could taste it? 2 Q. -- concerning the Gulf Outlet?
3 A. If I was water-skiing, sure. 3 A. No.
4 Q. So did you begin to witness the 4 Q. Did you have any discussions with --
5 die-off you talked about, saltwater? You also 5 The trapper that you talked about earlier, is
6 talked about the dying off of grasses -- 6 that Mr. Jeanfreau?
7 A. That's correct. 7 A. No, that was a man by the name of
8 Q. -- and freshwater vegetation. 8 Paul Mandotte.
9 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Is Mr. Mandotte still alive?
10 Q. Could you tell us about that? 10 A. I think he is and I don't know what
11 A. Well, you could -- you could see the 11 kind of health he's in.
12 -- For instance, in your duck ponds where you 12 Q. Did you have any discussion with Mr.
13 had alligator grass, it killed it because you 13 Mandotte subsequent to the building of the
14 couldn't -- it didn't live in saltwater. Your 14 Gulf Outlet concerning the decrease or loss of
15 other kind of grasses, they were all fresh 15 the alligator grass you just testified about?
16 marsh grass, didn't make it because of the 16 A. I had discussions with Mr. Mandotte
17 saltwater. So your habitat was degrading 17 prior to and after the digging of this
18 because of the disappearance of your food 18 channel, and he was a very intelligent man
19 supply. 19 when it came to the marsh. Very
20 Q. And how rapid was the loss of the 20 conservation-minded person. And yes, we did
21 alligator grass in the duck ponds that you 21 have discussions on it.
22 witnessed subsequent to the building of the 22 Q. And what did you learn from those
23 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 23 conversations?
24 A. Well, once it was opened, it was 24 A. That it was -- the trapping industry
25 very rapid, as far as that particular type of 25 was about to go under in St. Bernard Parish.
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
Page 62 Page 64
1 Q. I mean, other than the alligator 1 A. LaBranche wetlands. It's right on
2 grass and the three corner grass were the two 2 the interstate. You see all of these
3 fresh water, did you notice the loss or see 3 beautiful cypress trees there. All of these
4 the loss of any other freshwater species of 4 trees are having the same effect right now as
5 plant subsequent to the building of the 5 these trees that I am talking about had in the
6 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 6 '60s. These trees have had the salinities
7 A. You had the -- The only other loss 7 because of the Gulf Outlet. But they are just
8 you had was any of the grass that was a 8 getting to where it's a sustainable problem.
9 freshwater type grass that would grow there. 9 So it's taken time to kill these cypress
10 And I really don't recall the names of them. 10 trees. And this is what's happened in St.
11 Q. Was there another change in 11 Bernard. It took time to kill them. But once
12 vegetation as a result of the, or subsequent 12 they started, they went.
13 to, the building of the Mississippi River Gulf 13 Q. But time, when you're talking -- And
14 Outlet? 14 this is just based on your knowledge from your
15 A. There was a drastic change in 15 observation. I understand you're not an
16 vegetation, as I said. You lost a lot of -- 16 arborist or a botanist and all of that.
17 all of your freshwater grasses. 17 You're just out there doing it every day and
18 Q. What about the oak trees and the 18 you witnessed it. But based on your
19 palmetto trees that were in the high areas 19 observations and what you have learned
20 that you talked about; did those dissipate 20 subsequent and the reports that you read
21 also? 21 subsequent, and we'll talk about those a
22 A. Oak trees can take some salinities 22 little bit later, the process of the cypress
23 more other than other tree. The palmettos, 23 trees dying, was that a process -- you said a
24 they still survived. I don't think they 24 few years. That took two or three years or
25 survived as well as they could have. But they 25 five to ten or ten to twenty --
Page 63 Page 65
1 were surviving. 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What about the cypress trees? 2 Q. -- as best you can remember?
3 A. The cypress trees at that particular 3 A. Yes.
4 time didn't look any worse for wear, but from 4 Q. Was it two to three or ten to
5 what I know in -- I guess in the past 20 5 twenty?
6 years, it takes a cypress tree quite a while 6 A. It could have been all of them.
7 to see the effects of salt. It starts in the 7 That's what I am saying. It could have been
8 middle of the tree and goes out. And -- 8 -- It's a very gradual process. And
9 Q. Right. And how long does that 9 depending on the size of the tree, it took
10 process take from what you have learned? 10 longer to kill a bigger tree than it did to
11 A. It took a few years. And you could 11 kill a smaller tree.
12 actually -- After 1963, I guess in the '70s 12 Q. Right. Let's go back. In the
13 you could see it very evident. 13 observations of the cypress forest that you
14 Q. In the '70s. But let's talk about, 14 had on the property owned by the Borgnemouth
15 before we get to the '70s, did you notice -- 15 Corporation --
16 A. Well, let me give you a good example 16 A. I will say this.
17 of what I am speaking of. 17 Q. -- how long --
18 Q. Okay. 18 A. Because of the salinities, it
19 A. I think everybody here knows where 19 stopped the regeneration of the trees. They
20 LaBranche is. 20 didn't grow any more trees.
21 Q. No. What is that? I'm sure that 21 Q. Okay. In 1965, after the building
22 they don't. 22 of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, did you
23 A. Okay. LaBranche -- If you come in 23 notice any changes on the Bayou LaLoutre ridge
24 on an airplane, you are coming over LaBranche. 24 that we talked about earlier?
25 Q. Okay. The LaBranche wetlands? 25 A. No.
17 (Pages 62 to 65)
Page 66 Page 68
1 Q. Okay. When did you begin to notice 1 face of the earth. And my fiancee at the time
2 changes on the Bayou LaLoutre ridge, to the 2 was in Lafayette worried to death because she
3 best of your recollection? 3 figured I was one of the people that was dead
4 A. Probably in the '70s. 4 because everybody was dead in St. Bernard.
5 Q. Okay. 5 Q. And did it flood at all by your
6 A. Where it really started -- just 6 house?
7 started sinking. 7 A. No.
8 Q. But what about the changes in the 8 Q. Did water reach St. Bernard Highway?
9 vegetation on the Bayou LaLoutre ridge; did 9 A. Not there.
10 you notice any change in the vegetation on the 10 Q. Where did water reach St. Bernard
11 Bayou LaLoutre ridge prior to 1970? 11 Highway?
12 A. No. Let me explain why if you want 12 A. Probably from Chalmette to Arabi.
13 to know why. 13 Q. And Chalmette, would that be from
14 Q. Okay. 14 Paris Road to Arabi?
15 A. The closer in to like Bayou 15 A. Right.
16 Bienvenue from I guess -- You have Hopedale, 16 Q. Or Palmisano to Arabi?
17 Shell Beach, then you have the area in the -- 17 A. Probably Paris Road.
18 in the area of where we are. All right. You 18 Q. Okay. So it would be Paris Road up
19 had a different type of vegetation. The area 19 to the Ninth Ward?
20 out there by Hopedale was a little hardier 20 A. Right. It was very little water on
21 grass and plant and tree. It had some 21 St. Bernard Highway anyway.
22 salinity -- It had some exposure to salinity 22 Q. Was there more water -- Tell me
23 because of its proximity to the Gulf. 23 about the effect, if any, that Betsy had with
24 Q. Right. 24 regard to water heights in the property owned
25 A. Where up in the further reach around 25 by the Borgnemouth Corporation.
Page 67 Page 69
1 from Violet to Bayou Bienvenue, it didn't have 1 A. Up to the 40 Arpent Levee -- at that
2 that exposure to the salinity. You know, you 2 time you had a levee -- the water got anywhere
3 may not have got the salinities like you have 3 probably from 12 feet deep to, right at the
4 today, but you had -- you may have had eight 4 foot of the levee maybe 9 or 10 feet deep.
5 or ten parts per thousand of salt back then 5 Q. So it was 9 to 12 feet deep on the
6 over there, where you had one or two parts per 6 other side, or the north side of the 40 Arpent
7 thousand in the Bayou Bienvenue area or Violet 7 Canal?
8 area. 8 A. Right.
9 Q. In 1965, September, -- 9 Q. And did you get any water between
10 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 10 the 40 Arpent Canal and the Mississippi River?
11 Q. -- they had Hurricane Betsy. 11 A. No.
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 12 Q. How long did the water remain on the
13 Q. Where were you living in 1965 when 13 40 Arpent Canal northward after Hurricane
14 Hurricane Betsy came? 14 Betsy?
15 A. Where that X is (indicating). 4626 15 A. In the marsh?
16 East St. Bernard Highway. 16 Q. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And could you describe the 17 A. Probably maybe two or -- About a
18 Hurricane Betsy event as you remember it for a 18 week, I guess.
19 12 year old? No, 22 year old. I'm sorry. 19 Q. Immediately after Hurricane Betsy
20 A. I can remember it very well. We 20 did you notice any change in the vegetation?
21 actually lucked out with Hurricane Betsy. We 21 A. Yeah. It was all gone.
22 sustained very minor damage to our home. We 22 Q. And when you say it was all gone --
23 had no problem with water. Our biggest 23 A. Because of the hurricane.
24 problem was communication. The news media 24 Q. But I mean, did it knock down a
25 portrayed St. Bernard as being wiped off the 25 whole bunch of trees?
18 (Pages 66 to 69)
Page 70 Page 72
1 A. Knocked down trees, it -- it -- That 1 marsh to a saline marsh and you were getting
2 is basically the -- the event that really 2 your pifine, your smooth core grass, growing
3 killed the cypress trees. 3 which can take the salinities, which we never
4 Q. How did that event really kill the 4 had before. It was something that was a new
5 cypress trees? 5 grass growing in the area.
6 A. Because it poured all of that 6 You think we could take a little
7 saltwater right on top of them. 7 break now?
8 Q. And how did the saltwater get on top 8 Q. Yes, I was going to suggest since
9 of -- where is your -- Based on your 9 we're at Hurricane Betsy event, we'll take a
10 experience, where did the water come from with 10 break?
11 Hurricane Betsy that was the 9 to 12 feet of 11 VIDEO OPERATOR:
12 water from the 40 Arpent Canal northward on 12 We're going off the record at
13 the property owned by the Borgnemouth 13 10:50. This is the end of tape 1.
14 Corporation? 14 (Recess.)
15 MR. WOODCOCK: 15 VIDEO OPERATOR:
16 Objection, speculation. 16 We're back on the record at
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 17 11:07. This is the beginning of tape
18 Q. You can answer subject to the 18 2.
19 objection. 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
20 A. I was going to say "I think". 20 Q. Mr. Livaudais, would you agree with
21 A lot of it came from the Gulf 21 the statement that "The problem of saltwater
22 Outlet. A lot of it came from Lake Borgne. 22 intrusion throughout the marsh land area are
23 Q. And when you say that it dumped all 23 manifold. High saline content water is
24 of that saltwater, what change, if any, did 24 detrimental to the existing natural vegetation
25 you notice in the cypress trees after 25 that is depended on by the wild fowl, fish,
Page 71 Page 73
1 Hurricane Betsy? 1 and fur-bearing animals in the area owned by
2 A. You started seeing a die-off at that 2 the Borgnemouth Corporation"?
3 point. You started seeing a rapid decline of 3 A. Absolutely. That's what I have been
4 the cypress swamp as far as the trees in it. 4 trying to tell you.
5 It got smaller. It started compacting. Just 5 Q. And did you in fact observe the
6 shrinking. 6 detrimental effects of saltwater intrusion in
7 Q. And it was shrinking rapidly? 7 that area?
8 A. Very rapidly. 8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. Like on a monthly basis you would 9 Q. And those effects would be. For the
10 notice changes? 10 purposes of kind of getting back after the
11 A. Absolutely. You could see a 11 break, the loss of the alligator grass, the
12 change. Every time you went out there you saw 12 three corner grass, and the other vegetation
13 something different. 13 --
14 Q. And how often did you go out there? 14 A. Other vegetations.
15 A. At that particular point in time I 15 Q. -- that we talked about?
16 was out there fairly often. Maybe at least 16 A. Correct.
17 once a week. 17 Q. Would you agree with the statement
18 Q. And when you say you noticed -- Did 18 that was made by the Corps of Engineers --
19 you notice any other changes in the vegetation 19 A. Probably not.
20 on the property owned by the Borgnemouth 20 Q. Well, you might. You might. I
21 Corporation after Hurricane Betsy? 21 think you will agree with this statement. And
22 A. The vegetation itself that was there 22 it's found on -- And what I am going to do is,
23 was already affected because of saltwater, so 23 since I'll refer to parts of it, we'll mark
24 it was a changing vegetation. You were 24 this as Exhibit 4. And what Exhibit 4 is, is
25 getting more from a fresh to intermediate 25 it's the report of the Environmental
19 (Pages 70 to 73)
Page 74 Page 76
1 Subcommittee to the MRGO Technical Committee. 1 trees and the vegetation that we spoke of
2 And if you look on page 1557, it's NAD-188, a 2 earlier before the break?
3 bunch of zeroes, and then 1557. Do you have 3 A. Correct.
4 that? 4 Q. And in that area bounded by Paris
5 MR. WOODCOCK: 5 Road, Lake Borgne, St. Bernard Highway-
6 Yes. 6 Mississippi River, and Yscloskey, did you
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 7 notice an increased land loss due to
8 Q. Which is page 1, the executive 8 hydrological changes caused by the MRGO?
9 summary of the Corps of Engineers' portion of 9 A. Yes.
10 the report, which is Exhibit 4. Would you 10 Q. And when it says "hydrological
11 agree with the statement that "There were 11 changes", do you know what is meant by that
12 three basic impacts caused by construction of 12 word?
13 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet"? I am 13 A. Yes.
14 reading from the second paragraph. "One, 14 Q. And how would you interpret the word
15 habitat loss due to channel excavation, spoil 15 "hydrological change"?
16 disposal, and erosion. Two, shifts in habitat 16 A. Hydrological change would mean the
17 type due to salinity brought in by the MRGO 17 way the tidal flow is changed, as far as the
18 and increased land loss due to hydrological 18 water -- the water flow and the volume of
19 changes caused about by the MRGO"? Do you 19 water flow. It's a lot bigger now or at that
20 agree with that statement? 20 particular time this thing was done than it is
21 A. Yes. 21 when it wasn't there, when the Ship Channel
22 Q. Did you observe habitat loss due to 22 wasn't there. You have a tremendous,
23 channel excavations, spoil disposal, and 23 tremendous amount of hydrology going through
24 erosion on the property owned by the 24 this area that has just scoured it out.
25 Borgnemouth Corporation? 25 Q. Okay.
Page 75 Page 77
1 A. Yes. 1 A. If you follow what I am saying.
2 Q. Did you observe shifts in habitat 2 Q. Yes. Yes. And has that effect, or
3 type, which I would assume to be vegetation, 3 did that effect take place from the mouth of
4 due to salinity brought in by the MRGO on the 4 the Mississippi -- Have you ever heard the
5 property owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation? 5 MRGO called the Ship Channel?
6 A. Yes. 6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you observe a land loss due 7 Q. Why was it called the Ship Channel?
8 to hydrological changes caused by the MRGO? 8 A. It was supposed to be a shipping
9 A. Yes. 9 channel, a shortcut from the Gulf to New
10 Q. And with that as a broad frame of 10 Orleans where they didn't have to take the
11 reference -- And let's go back and do the same 11 river.
12 exercise for the area, to the extent you 12 Q. Because I grew up with everybody
13 observed it, bounded by Paris Road, the 13 calling it the Ship Channel.
14 Mississippi River, Lake Borgne, and 14 A. Right.
15 Yscloskey. Did you notice in that area 15 Q. And who was it that used the term
16 habitat loss due to channel excavation, spoil 16 "Ship Channel"?
17 disposal, and erosion? 17 A. I have no idea. That's all I have
18 A. Yes. 18 ever heard it called, was the Ship Channel,
19 Q. And in that area did you notice or 19 besides the tide water canal.
20 observe shifts in habitat type due to salinity 20 Q. Let me ask you after, just because I
21 brought in by the MRGO? 21 am at that point, but being in the Ship
22 A. Yes. 22 Channel, have you ever -- were you ever in the
23 Q. And the changes in habitat type due 23 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet or Ship Channel
24 to salinity brought in by the MRGO, those 24 when a ship was going either up or out?
25 observations would be the loss of the cypress 25 A. Yes.
20 (Pages 74 to 77)
Page 78 Page 80
1 Q. And how many times did that occur 1 in and out and the movement of water, to your
2 that you observed a ship in the Ship Channel? 2 knowledge, increased the size of the Gulf
3 A. You were -- I am a little confused. 3 Outlet?
4 You talking about how many times I have seen 4 A. Drastically.
5 ships in the Ship Channel? 5 Q. And could you explain that process
6 Q. Yes. 6 as you understand it and as you observed it?
7 A. Well, it depends on when it was. 7 A. The Ship Channel or the Mississippi
8 When it was first opened up, you had quite a 8 River Gulf Outlet was a 500 foot channel when
9 few ships that were using it. Then over a 9 it was dug. 20 years ago it was 2,000 feet
10 period of years, it got less and less. 10 wide. Today it's 3,000 feet wide. So it's
11 Q. But during that period of time, 11 just completely gone over what they ever
12 from, say, the installation of the Mississippi 12 thought it would be or what they may have
13 River Gulf Outlet until the present day, were 13 known it was going to be, but didn't tell
14 you in the Ship Channel ever with a ship going 14 anybody.
15 either -- 15 Q. And in the document which is Exhibit
16 A. Sure. 16 4, I am looking for it, I think that there was
17 Q. -- in or out? 17 -- Did you participate in -- I might be
18 A. Absolutely. 18 getting a little ahead of myself, but for
19 Q. And how many times? Would it be 19 foundation purposes, did you participate in
20 thousands, hundreds? 20 the work associated with the report which is
21 A. Hundreds. 21 Exhibit 4?
22 Q. Hundreds. Okay. And during that 22 A. Yes.
23 time did you observe -- what effect, if any, 23 Q. And what function did you have in
24 did you observe with regard to the banks of 24 the work which resulted in the report which is
25 the Ship Channel when you were in the Ship 25 Exhibit 4?
Page 79 Page 81
1 Channel with a ship either going in or out? 1 A. We were a subcommittee of a
2 A. Well, in the first place, when a 2 subcommittee on the habitat impact and the
3 ship is transversing the Gulf Outlet or the 3 loss to the cypress industry. There's a loss
4 Ship Channel, it is pushing water in the front 4 of the cypress trees. The trapping industry
5 of it. And this water is just going 5 and the loss of the trapping income and so
6 everywhere. As the ship passes, the water is 6 forth.
7 all sucked right back into the area it just 7 Q. Okay. You say "we were a
8 came from. And when it's sucked back, it 8 subcommittee of a subcommittee". Could you
9 takes everything in its path with it. 9 tell me who you were and what group you
10 Q. Did you ever -- 10 represented?
11 A. Bank and all. 11 A. I was involved with it through the
12 Q. But did you ever have occasion to 12 St. Bernard Wetland Foundation, which is a
13 watch the banks or observe the banks of the 13 501(C)(3) non-profit.
14 Gulf Outlet -- 14 Q. And what was the purpose of the
15 A. Absolutely. 15 formation, or excuse me, what was the mission
16 Q. -- when a ship was passing or 16 of the St. Bernard Wetlands Foundation?
17 traversing the Gulf Outlet, as you said? 17 A. The St. Bernard Wetlands Foundation
18 A. Yes. When it's going in one 18 was formed in 1993 to protect and enhance the
19 direction and it's pushing that water, the 19 contiguous lands and all the lands of St.
20 water is creating this huge wake and it's 20 Bernard Parish.
21 breaking on the bank of the channel, eroding 21 Q. And how did the St. Bernard Wetlands
22 it tremendously; and then as it passes, it's 22 Foundation achieve its mission or attempt to
23 pulling it all back right down into the bottom 23 achieve its mission?
24 of the Gulf Outlet again. 24 A. Well, the St. Bernard Wetlands
25 Q. Has that phenomenon, the ships going 25 Foundation actually started a tree nursery to
21 (Pages 78 to 81)
Page 82 Page 84
1 start revegetating some of the areas that was 1 the installation of the Gulf Outlet?
2 lost with the trees were gone. They also 2 A. No.
3 started a -- They attempted to start a bass 3 Q. Now, in looking at the document
4 rearing pond to bring national recognition to 4 which is Exhibit 4, it states on page
5 our problem down here. 5 NAD-1881538 that "Construction of the channel
6 Q. And what was the problem that St. 6 to full dimensions 500 feet --" I am reading
7 Bernard was having? 7 at paragraph 3. It says "The construction --"
8 A. The problem was we were washing 8 Let's see. "Construction of the channel to
9 away. Erosion. Coastal erosion. 9 full channel dimensions 500 feet wide by 36
10 Q. Was the land owned by the 10 feet deep was completed through Chandelier
11 Borgnemouth Corporation eroding away? 11 Sound in January, 1968". Is that about what
12 A. Absolutely. 12 you remember?
13 Q. And prior to the installation of the 13 A. I don't know when they did the
14 Gulf Outlet, was the property, the cypress 14 Chandelier Sound area.
15 swamp on the property owned by the Lake Borgne 15 Q. Okay. As best you can remember,
16 -- excuse me, the Borgnemouth Realty 16 what year was it where they got to Breton
17 Corporation, was that dying or eroding? 17 Sound, when they completed the Mississippi
18 A. I'm sorry? 18 River Gulf Outlet to Breton Sound?
19 Q. I didn't ask that -- Prior to the 19 A. As far as I can remember, the
20 installation of the Gulf Outlet, was the 20 completion was 1963.
21 cypress swamp on the area -- as depicted on 21 Q. Were you aware of any alternative
22 figure 2, the cypress swamp on the property 22 routes?
23 owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation, was that 23 A. Yes.
24 eroding -- 24 Q. And which alternative routes are you
25 A. No. 25 aware of for the Gulf Outlet?
Page 83 Page 85
1 Q. -- prior to the Gulf Outlet being 1 A. The one that went through Lake
2 built? 2 Borgne that passed through Mozambique Point,
3 A. No. Not at all. 3 out into the Gulf.
4 Q. Did the cypress swamp on the 4 Q. It would have passed through
5 property owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation 5 Proctor's Point; right?
6 change prior -- as far as dimension or have 6 A. It would have passed on the outside
7 any change prior to the installation of the 7 of Proctor's Point.
8 Gulf Outlet? 8 Q. Right. Mozambique Point is --
9 A. From what I knew? No. 9 A. It's further out.
10 Q. Did the other marsh types and land 10 Q. Right. But what do you know about
11 types change on the property owned by the 11 that proposed route?
12 Borgnemouth Corporation, based on what you 12 A. I wish they would have taken it.
13 know, prior to the installation of the Gulf 13 Q. And but --
14 Outlet? 14 A. I don't know much more than that
15 A. No. 15 about it.
16 Q. And in taking that one step out, but 16 Q. Okay. And do you have any knowledge
17 from the property bounded by Paris Road, Lake 17 of any other proposed routes?
18 Borgne, Yscloskey, and the Mississippi River, 18 A. I think at one point they proposed
19 did the cypress forests in that area change 19 one on the west bank. I am not real sure
20 prior to the installation of the Gulf Outlet? 20 about that.
21 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know why, in looking at
22 Q. Did the other marsh types in the 22 Exhibit 3, I mean, has anybody ever told you
23 area bounded by, based on your observations, 23 or do you have any knowledge, with that
24 bounded by Paris Road, the Mississippi River, 24 preface, do you have any knowledge -- In
25 Yscloskey, and Lake Borgne, change prior to 25 Exhibit 3, the Louisiana Wildlife and Fishery
22 (Pages 82 to 85)
Page 86 Page 88
1 Commission recommended two alternative routes 1 time that you remember observing adverse
2 that were not adopted by the Corps of 2 effects on the property owned by the
3 Engineers. Do you know why those routes were 3 Borgnemouth Corporation that you attributed to
4 not adopted? 4 the Gulf Outlet?
5 A. No, I don't. I have my suspicions, 5 A. Probably the -- Besides the spoil
6 but -- 6 bank, the spoil area that they dug, I would
7 Q. Well, don't tell us about your 7 say it would be around 1967 or '68. That you
8 suspicions. 8 could actually see it.
9 A. No, I am not. 9 Q. Okay. And what effect did you see,
10 Q. He'll get all aggravated and object 10 what adverse effect did you see in 1967 or
11 to the question. 11 1968 that you attributed, based on your
12 A. That's okay. All right if he's 12 observations, to the installation of the Gulf
13 aggravated. 13 Outlet?
14 Q. Have you ever heard of the term 14 A. You could see the vegetation
15 "ghost forest"? 15 changing from a fresh to a salinity -- a fresh
16 A. Yes. 16 to a salt marsh. You could see the trees
17 Q. And what is that term used in 17 starting to die. You could see a decline in
18 reference to? 18 wildlife. A drastic decline in wildlife and
19 A. That term is the -- used in the 19 in migratory birds. Drastic decline in
20 reference to the dead cypress that is standing 20 migratory birds.
21 still that -- I don't think it's standing any 21 Q. And why did you attribute those
22 more, but the term actually was -- was given 22 effects in 1967, 1968 to the building of the
23 to it by a man by the name of Ken Krauss as 23 Gulf Outlet?
24 far as I know when they were doing some 24 A. Because of the influence of the
25 research, and he did his Master's thesis on 25 salinities that came from there.
Page 87 Page 89
1 salt tolerant cypress trees, and he planted 1 Q. And how did you become -- Other than
2 400 of these trees in the ghost forest of St. 2 tasting the saltwater, which you described
3 Bernard. 3 earlier, is there any other way that you were
4 Q. And on the area Exhibit Number 2 or 4 made aware of the increased salinities in the
5 on Exhibit Number 1, to the extent you can, 5 area?
6 could you tell us where he planted those 6 A. Not at that particular time.
7 trees? 7 Q. Subsequent to 1967, 1968, at some
8 A. You want to mark it? 8 point in time would it be fair to say that you
9 Q. You can mark it with this pen. And 9 became an advocate of the closure of the
10 that's on Exhibit Number 1. 10 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
11 A. Yes. And it would be basically 11 A. That would be correct.
12 right there (writing). 12 Q. And did you ever hear of -- Let me
13 Q. Can you draw a circle around that? 13 ask you if you agree with this statement.
14 A. (Writing). You want me to mark it 14 "St. Bernard Parish," and again this is a
15 "ghost forest"? 15 statement on page NAD-1881558 made by the
16 Q. Yes. 16 Corps of Engineers in their report, which is
17 A. (Writing). (Indicating). 17 part of Exhibit Number 4. Were you aware --
18 Q. Turn it sideways so that we're 18 Let you get to that page. I'm sorry.
19 looking -- No, flip it over. 19 And it's the third paragraph.
20 A. (Indicating). 20 "St. Bernard Parish has long requested
21 Q. Hold it. 21 closure of the channel because, in addition to
22 MR. ANDRY: 22 the environmental damage, they believe that
23 Did you get that? 23 the channel serves as a funnel for hurricane
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 24 surges to enter the parish."
25 Q. Let me ask you, when is the first 25 When was the first time you heard
23 (Pages 86 to 89)
Page 90 Page 92
1 the term "funnel" used with regard to the Gulf 1 Objection. Speculation.
2 Outlet? 2 THE WITNESS:
3 A. Probably after Betsy. 1965. 3 Probably after Betsy
4 Q. And in what context was that term 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
5 used when you heard it, the term "funnel" with 5 Q. Okay. And what evidence or what
6 regard to the Gulf Outlet? 6 event caused you to become aware of that after
7 A. It was a major funnel of water going 7 Betsy?
8 into St. Bernard through Carolyn Park and 8 A. The flooding of Chalmette and Arabi
9 everything after the flooding that was done 9 and the Lower Ninth Ward.
10 there, and that was the terms used. 10 Q. Do you know where the water -- How
11 Q. Okay. Do you know of it being used 11 did the water get into the Ninth Ward from
12 at any other time? 12 Hurricane Betsy?
13 A. Before that? Not that I know of. 13 MR. WOODCOCK:
14 Q. Are you aware that in 1957 the Tide 14 Objection, speculation.
15 Water Advisory Committee reported to the St. 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
16 Bernard Parish Police Jury that "During times 16 Q. To the extent that you know.
17 of hurricane conditions, the existence of the 17 A. From the -- From what I know, it
18 channel will be an enormous danger to the 18 came in basically exactly where it came in
19 heavily populated areas of the parish due to 19 with Katrina. The damn levee broke on the
20 the rapidity of the rising waters reaching the 20 Industrial Canal and then in Chalmette, it
21 protects areas in full force through the 21 came over the levee, or the -- the little
22 avenue of the proposed channel"? 22 excuse they had there. It just came in.
23 A. I was not aware of that. 23 Q. Okay. You testified a little bit
24 MR. WOODCOCK: 24 earlier, before I digressed a little bit,
25 Excuse me. What document are you 25 about you being an advocate of closing the
Page 91 Page 93
1 reading from? 1 Gulf Outlet. Can you tell me real quick what
2 MR. ANDRY: 2 year that was again?
3 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'll give 3 A. Probably 1959. Before it was ever
4 you a copy. And I will attach it to 4 dug.
5 the record as Exhibit Number 5 since I 5 Q. And why were you an advocate against
6 read from it. 6 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet as far back
7 MR. WOODCOCK: 7 as 1959?
8 Okay. 8 A. When you're putting a 500 foot wide
9 MR. ANDRY: 9 channel through a pristine marsh, it's going
10 It is the report to the Police 10 to damage it, and that's what it did.
11 Jury of the Parish of St. Bernard of 11 Q. Would it be fair to say that it
12 the Tide Water Channel Advisory 12 didn't damage it, it killed it?
13 Committee. 13 A. It killed it.
14 MR. WOODCOCK: 14 Q. It destroyed the marsh that was
15 Thanks. 15 there?
16 MR. ANDRY: 16 A. It totally destroyed it.
17 That was -- It's Bates numbered 17 Q. And it did in fact destroy the
18 MRGO-X-5728 through MRGO-X-5736. I'll 18 cypress forest that was located on the
19 make that Exhibit Number 5. 19 property owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation?
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 20 A. It destroyed the cypress forests
21 Q. When did you first become aware of 21 throughout the entire parish. Not only on
22 the danger posed by the Mississippi River Gulf 22 Borgnemouth, but everywhere.
23 Outlet for hurricane storm surges and 23 Q. And in the '50s did you communicate
24 flooding? 24 to anyone your thought that the installation
25 MR. WOODCOCK: 25 of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet was going
24 (Pages 90 to 93)
Page 94 Page 96
1 to kill the pristine marsh? 1 lost and to put something -- some kind of
2 A. I'm sure I did, but I don't know who 2 barrier there that would cut the wind flow
3 I did it to. 3 down.
4 Q. Okay. Through time did you become 4 Q. And when you say --
5 more of an advocate for closure of the Gulf 5 A. And the water flow.
6 Outlet? 6 Q. When you say cut the wind flow and
7 A. Yes. 7 the water flow, were you planting the trees in
8 Q. And what actions did you take in 8 an attempt to create or recreate a buffer that
9 that regard? 9 existed for storm surges in the area, the
10 A. Well, we wrote letters to our 10 marsh area and the cypress forest area bounded
11 Congressmen and our Senators, United States 11 by Paris Road, the Mississippi River,
12 Congressmen and Senators, basically asking 12 Yscloskey, and Lake Borgne?
13 them at that point to stop pumping on the 13 A. That was the idea. And we did it on
14 south side of the MRGO and start pumping on 14 two different ways. We did it on an
15 the north side and put it back -- put the 15 experimental basis to see which would grow
16 spoil back, or the material back where it came 16 better. And then we also did it through a
17 from. 17 bunch of kids called -- through the Wildlife
18 Q. And did they do that? 18 Club of St. Bernard, which was through the 4-H
19 A. Not at that time. 19 Club. And that was a hoot.
20 Q. Well, when you communicated that, 20 Q. Did they have any success with
21 did you communicate that to the Corps -- Let 21 planting of the cypress trees?
22 me ask you this question. We'll start over. 22 A. We didn't have any success with the
23 When was the first time you had a 23 cypress trees because we really weren't
24 communication with an official from the United 24 planting cypress at that time. We were
25 States Corps of Engineers or a person from the 25 planting more like ash -- something that would
Page 95 Page 97
1 United States Corps of Engineers regarding 1 grow fast. We planted some wax myrtles to try
2 what you believed to be the adverse effects of 2 to see if they would grow. Anything that
3 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 3 would grow. We were trying to see which would
4 A. It was probably in the '80s. 4 do the best. There's only one problem. Once
5 Q. And in what context -- Do you 5 we did all of this, the Corps of Destruction,
6 remember who you met with at that time? 6 because they destroyed it, came down and was
7 A. No. We -- At that particular time, 7 pumping in on a maintenance dredging, and
8 Mr. Rodriguez and I had kind of teamed up and 8 their levee, their little berm that they had
9 were trying to do some projects that -- for 9 there to stop the spoil from going in, broke
10 the benefit of St. Bernard and to eliminate 10 and inundated our entire planting area with
11 some of these problems with the Gulf Outlet. 11 about seven inches of slop and killed every
12 Q. Okay. And what would you say the 12 tree we planted.
13 problems with the Gulf Outlet were at that 13 Q. What did the Corps say in response
14 time? 14 to that?
15 A. Basically what happened at that time 15 A. Oh, they wanted to give me $10,000.
16 was we had lost the cypress swamp, so to 16 They said it would be easier to do that than
17 speak. We had no trees to cut the wind down 17 to plant the trees. I said, "Look, I don't
18 or the tidal surge down. So we decided to 18 want the $10,000. I want you to go back and
19 start planting trees. That would be 1981. 19 plant the trees." Said, "We can't do that."
20 Q. Were there any other adverse effects 20 I said, "I don't see why not. Y'all destroyed
21 that -- 21 them, y'all ought to replace them."
22 A. Oh, there was a lot of adverse 22 Q. Do you know who you spoke with at
23 effects, but this was what we were really 23 the Corps at that time?
24 drawing our attention to at the time, was 24 A. That's been a long time ago. I
25 trying to I guess you'd say mitigate what was 25 don't remember.
25 (Pages 94 to 97)
Page 98 Page 100
1 Q. How many times have you communicated 1 get the minutes of the Coastal Zone Advisory
2 with Corps of Engineers personnel pertaining 2 Board for St. Bernard Parish from its
3 to what you perceived to be the adverse 3 inception to Katrina?
4 impacts of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet 4 A. I guess a man by the name of Jerry
5 between 1980 and the present day? 5 Graves, Jr. would be the best one to talk to.
6 A. I really couldn't put a number on 6 Q. And is Jerry in St. Bernard Parish?
7 it. It's been quite often. 7 A. Yes. He is the head of the Planning
8 Q. Is it hundreds? 8 and Zoning or whatever they call it now.
9 A. Probably a hundred times. 9 Q. Is the St. Bernard Coastal Zone
10 Q. Did you ever, to your knowledge, 10 Advisory Board an agency of St. Bernard
11 communicate with a Corps personnel since 1980 11 Parish?
12 pertaining to what you perceived to be the 12 A. Yes.
13 danger from storm surges coming up the Gulf 13 Q. To your understanding, is the St.
14 Outlet? 14 Bernard Parish Coastal Zone Advisory Board a
15 A. Absolutely. 15 governmental entity?
16 Q. And what was the response from the 16 A. Yes.
17 Corps -- How many times did you communicate 17 Q. When was the inception of the
18 with Corps personnel pertaining to storm 18 Coastal Zone Advisory Board?
19 surges coming up the Gulf Outlet? 19 A. St. Bernard actually had the first
20 A. At one point it was very, very 20 coastal zone advisory board in the state of
21 frequent. Well, first off, we were -- I was 21 Louisiana. And I think it was 1979 or '78
22 -- I have been on the St. Bernard Coastal 22 when Congress authorized this, the coastal
23 Zone Advisory Board for many years, and at our 23 zone boards, and every parish in the state,
24 meetings on a monthly basis we usually have 24 coastal parish actually, anyway, has the right
25 somebody from the Corps, talking to them about 25 to have one of these. And some have them,
Page 99 Page 101
1 the danger of this. 1 some don't. Some are more active than
2 Q. What is the Coastal Zone Advisory 2 others. But St. Bernard has been the most
3 Board for St. Bernard Parish? 3 active coastal zone board they had.
4 A. That's a -- The St. Bernard Coastal 4 Q. How many members does the Coastal
5 Zone Advisory Board is a board made up of 5 Zone Advisory Board for St. Bernard have?
6 commercial fishermen, landowners, user groups 6 A. I really don't know. They have --
7 of the marsh who are trying to preserve what 7 It's varying. Right now they are -- there may
8 we have or who are interested in trying to 8 be 20. 15 or 20.
9 preserve this and who have been appointed by 9 Q. When were you appointed to or become
10 the -- either the Police Jury or the Parish 10 part of the Coastal Zone Advisory Board?
11 Council to represent them and to advise them 11 A. I don't remember how long ago that
12 on to -- in coastal areas. You know, coastal 12 was. It's been quite a while.
13 affairs. 13 Q. Was it in 1979?
14 Q. How many times -- Did they take 14 A. No, it was probably in
15 minutes of the meetings of the Coastal Zone 15 1980-something.
16 Advisory Board? 16 Q. Were you appointed to the Coastal
17 A. Yes. 17 Zone Advisory Board, or is that an elected
18 Q. Do you know if those minutes still 18 position?
19 exist? 19 A. It's appointed.
20 A. I don't know about the minutes that 20 Q. And who appointed you to the Coastal
21 were made from the inception of it until 21 Zone Advisory Board for St. Bernard Parish?
22 Katrina, but I think -- I know the minutes 22 A. I think Mr. Rodriguez did.
23 from Katrina on are still there. I don't know 23 Q. And that would be Junior Rodriguez?
24 if we lost those minutes or not. 24 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). And that's
25 Q. Who would I talk to if I wanted to 25 when he was a police juror.
26 (Pages 98 to 101)
Page 102 Page 104
1 Q. Okay. At the monthly meetings of 1 Mr. Johnny Gallo who is a member. You have
2 the Coastal Zone Advisory Board, approximately 2 Mr. Fabian Garra. You have myself. Mr. Jim
3 how often, when you were part of it, did -- 3 Hassock.
4 Let me ask this. How long were you on the 4 Q. Is there a document which would list
5 Coastal Zone Advisory Board for St. Bernard 5 the members of the --
6 Parish? 6 A. Yes.
7 A. I still am. 7 Q. -- St. Bernard Coastal --
8 Q. And are you part of, a member on the 8 A. Yes.
9 St. Bernard Coastal Zone Advisory Board as an 9 Q. -- Zone Advisory Board?
10 individual or do you represent the St. Bernard 10 A. Yes.
11 Wetlands Foundation that you talked to us 11 Q. And would that document or a
12 about earlier? 12 document like that list the members of the
13 A. I am on there as an individual. 13 Coastal Zone Advisory Board from its inception
14 Q. During your tenure on the St. 14 through today?
15 Bernard Coastal Zone Advisory Board, how often 15 A. Yes.
16 did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board discuss 16 Q. And would that document be in the
17 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 17 possession of Mr. Graves also?
18 A. The St. Bernard Coastal Zone 18 A. Probably.
19 Advisory Board meets once a month every 19 Q. Do you know if those documents would
20 month. We mentioned it sometimes in great 20 be in the possession of St. Bernard Parish?
21 detail. And always has been the same thing, 21 A. Hopefully they are.
22 "Close the damn thing." 22 Q. How long, from your memory, in the
23 Q. And has that -- You have been -- 23 monthly meetings did you discuss wetland loss
24 Let's go back. In 1980 when you were 24 that y'all as a Coastal Zone Advisory Board
25 appointed by Junior, or Mr. Rodriguez, how 25 attributed to the Mississippi River Gulf
Page 103 Page 105
1 many members did the Coastal Zone Advisory 1 Outlet?
2 Board have? 2 A. Constantly.
3 A. About 20. 3 Q. Would that be every month?
4 Q. And as you understood and understand 4 A. At least.
5 now the function of the St. Bernard Coastal 5 Q. Did you receive or create any
6 Zone Advisory Board, what is the function of 6 reports that depicted, or other documents that
7 that entity? 7 depicted the wetland loss attributable to or
8 A. The function of St. Bernard Coastal 8 caused by the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet as
9 Zone Advisory Board is to advise the -- either 9 the Coastal Zone Advisory Board?
10 when the Police Jury was in or the Council as 10 A. Probably not.
11 to what to do with certain problems that arise 11 Q. Were there any reports presented to
12 before the Council or the Police Jury. It has 12 the members, or presented to the Coastal Zone
13 a lot to do with oil and gas permits; has a 13 Advisory Board pertaining to wetland loss
14 lot to do with building anything in the 14 attributable to or caused by the digging of
15 wetlands; with the problem like the Gulf 15 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
16 Outlet, it has a that to do with that. We 16 A. Absolutely.
17 advise them on that. And in the process of 17 Q. And who would be in possession of
18 this, the people who have been on there for 18 those reports?
19 all of these years have actually basically 19 A. Dr. Sherwood Gagliano, who was the
20 become experts in wetland management. 20 adviser to the St. Bernard Coastal Zone
21 Q. Who are the other members of the 21 Advisory Board, had extensive research done on
22 Coastal Zone Advisory Board today? 22 this and extensive writings done on it that I
23 A. You have Mr. Dan Arceneaux who is 23 know are available today.
24 the chairman today. You have Mr. Ralph 24 Q. Did Mr. Gagliano make presentations
25 Latapie, who is the vice-chairman. You have 25 to the Coastal Zone Advisory Board pertaining
27 (Pages 102 to 105)

Page 106 Page 108
1 to wetland loss associated with or caused by 1 How often did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board
2 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 2 communicate to the Corps of Engineers that the
3 A. Yes. 3 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet functioned as a
4 Q. In making those presentations, did 4 funnel for hurricane storm surge or hurricane
5 Mr. Gagliano present information indicating 5 surges to enter the parish?
6 that the loss of the wetlands had a resulting 6 A. Quite often.
7 effect on increased storm surge? 7 Q. Was it on a monthly basis?
8 A. Yes. 8 A. Monthly basis. Every time we had a
9 Q. And what is your understanding of 9 representative from the Corps at our meetings,
10 what he presented or what did you learn by his 10 we emphasized that.
11 presentations in your capacity as a member of 11 Q. Who was the representative from the
12 the Coastal Zone Advisory Board? 12 Corps that came to the meetings of the Coastal
13 A. Salinity kills, number one. But 13 Zone Advisory Board?
14 yes, -- Well, the -- as you brought up before, 14 A. You have various members of the
15 the hydrology, the change in the hydrology, 15 Corps would come. One who was one of the best
16 the deepening of canals that were just small 16 people who ever came was a man by the name of
17 trenasses several years before that are now 17 Bob Gunn, who is not with us any more today;
18 you could put an ocean-going ship through them 18 he's unfortunately passed on, but he was a
19 almost. The -- Some canals that were there 19 tremendous individual when it came to helping
20 are just not there any more because they 20 St. Bernard. He tried his best, but, because
21 disappeared. They have eroded away. Just 21 of the constraints of the Corps, could only do
22 innumerable number of things. 22 certain things.
23 Q. But specifically when you talk about 23 Q. When you say the constraints of the
24 hydrology and we talked about the Corps 24 Corps, what are you speaking of?
25 statement that "St. Bernard Parish has long 25 A. I am speaking of all of their silly
Page 107 Page 109
1 requested the closure of the channel because 1 little rules and regulations.
2 in addition to environmental damage, they 2 Q. And when you say the silly little
3 believe that the channel serves as a funnel 3 rules and regulations, did Mr. Gunn
4 for hurricane storm surges to enter the 4 communicate to you that he was attempting to
5 parish," did y'all discuss the funnel -- I say 5 -- what did he communicate to you in that
6 y'all. Did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board 6 regard?
7 discuss the MRGO functioning as a funnel for 7 A. He didn't -- He couldn't. He wasn't
8 hurricane storm surges to enter the parish? 8 in position to communicate that. He had a
9 A. Absolutely. Mr. Savoye, Pete Savoye 9 job.
10 was a member, who, he's not in very good 10 Q. But what I am asking is, you
11 health right now so he's an honorary member 11 indicated in your answer that Mr. Gunn came to
12 for life, but he even made a model that showed 12 the meetings and you communicated to him about
13 how a storm surge would wipe out St. Bernard. 13 the channel functioning as a conduit for storm
14 And it apparently was actually what happened. 14 surge to enter the parish. What, if anything,
15 Q. Okay. And let me ask you, when the 15 did Mr. Gunn do in response to those
16 Coastal Zone Advisory Board discussed the 16 communications made to him?
17 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet functioning as a 17 A. In that respect, as far as being a
18 funnel for hurricane storm surges to enter the 18 conduit, he really didn't -- he couldn't do
19 parish, did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board 19 anything. Because it was a mandate of
20 communicate that to a member of the Corps of 20 Congress that this thing stay the way it was.
21 Engineers at any point in time? 21 So he had -- he was powerless as far as that
22 A. Absolutely. 22 was concerned.
23 Q. How often did -- 23 Q. Other than Mr. Gunn, who were the
24 A. Oh, quite often. 24 Corps representatives that attended the
25 Q. Well, let me finish my question. 25 Coastal Zone Advisory Board meetings?
28 (Pages 106 to 109)

Page 110 Page 112
1 A. You had another man by the name of 1 A. Probably from '88 or '89 to just
2 Edmond Russo who is now up in Vicksburg, I 2 recently. I guess the last three months.
3 understand. 3 Q. Where did y'all meet? Where did the
4 Q. How often did Mr. Russo come to the 4 Coastal Zone Advisory Board meet?
5 Coastal Zone Advisory Board meetings? 5 A. Well, we started meeting in
6 A. He would come every once in a while, 6 Delacroix Island at the Coastal Zone Complex,
7 but he was not as often as Mr. Gunn. 7 which used to be a school. We met there until
8 Q. Did Mr. Gunn and Mr. Russo come at 8 Mr. Dean became Parish President and we then
9 the same time? 9 met at either Ducros Library or the Parish
10 A. No. Mr. Russo took Mr. Gunn's place 10 Government Complex.
11 after he died. 11 Q. Was there an official meeting -- Was
12 Q. When you say "took his place", did 12 there a document that went out from the St.
13 the Coastal Zone Advisory Board request the 13 Bernard Council or the Coastal Zone Advisory
14 presence of a Corps official at its meeting -- 14 Board that would advise the public of the
15 A. Sometimes. 15 meetings of the Coastal Zone Advisory Board?
16 Q. -- and Mr. Gunn came in response? 16 A. I don't know.
17 A. Sometimes. That would be -- That 17 Q. How did y'all get together? I mean,
18 would be the correct procedure. We would 18 was it -- I didn't ask the question properly.
19 request a presence there and they would show 19 But when the Coastal Zone Advisory Board met,
20 up, yes. 20 did you meet because the Police Jury or
21 Q. And why would you request a presence 21 Council ordered you to, or did you just meet
22 of a Corps individual at a Coastal Zone 22 monthly of your own volition?
23 Advisory Board meeting? 23 A. No, we had a specific date to meet
24 A. To make sure they understood our 24 monthly. And that was our -- according to the
25 position on this whole procedure of the Ship 25 charter or whatever we had, we were to meet
Page 111 Page 113
1 Channel, the Gulf Outlet. 1 once a month and that's what we did.
2 Q. So you invited a Corps individual 2 Q. Okay. Did you ever as a Coastal
3 specifically to advise him or her on the 3 Zone Advisory Board advise a Corps individual,
4 Coastal Zone Advisory Board's position 4 a representative, that the Mississippi River
5 relating to the Gulf Outlet? 5 Gulf Outlet would function as a funnel for
6 A. That's correct. 6 hurricane surges to enter St. Bernard Parish?
7 Q. Would you invite the Corps 7 A. Every time we all had a chance to,
8 individual via letter? 8 you know, we'd -- we all had the same purpose
9 A. I think a telephone call. That was 9 in mind, close this thing now before it
10 done by the secretary of the Coastal Zone 10 destroys us.
11 Advisory Board. 11 Q. And what did the Corps
12 Q. Who was the secretary of the Coastal 12 representative do, if anything, in response to
13 Zone Advisory Board? 13 the Coastal Zone Advisory Board stating its
14 A. At the time it was a man by the name 14 opinion that the channel served as a funnel
15 of Chris Andry. 15 for hurricane surges to enter St. Bernard
16 (Whereupon a discussion was held 16 Parish?
17 off the record.) 17 A. They all used the same cop-out.
18 THE WITNESS: 18 "It's an act of Congress. It's going to take
19 He was the secretary. I don't 19 an act of Congress to stop it."
20 think he's the secretary any more. 20 Q. Did anything ever happen in response
21 And I think it's a guy -- I don't 21 -- Did the Corps ever take any action in
22 remember his name, but he's new. 22 response to the repeated statements by the
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 23 Coastal Zone Advisory Board that the
24 Q. How long did Chris serve as the 24 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet served as a
25 secretary for the Coastal Zone Advisory Board? 25 funnel for hurricane surges to enter the
29 (Pages 110 to 113)

Page 114 Page 116
1 parish? 1 Q. -- Environmental Subcommittee to the
2 A. Of course not. Their idea was that 2 MRGO Technical Committee, which is Exhibit 4.
3 it would only increase the flood -- the surge 3 Is that correct?
4 by six inches. 4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board 5 Q. Now, going back to the Coastal Zone
6 or any other agency of St. Bernard Parish ever 6 Advisory Board, did the Coastal Zone Advisory
7 ask the Corps to study the effect of the MRGO 7 Board ever discuss the erosion of the
8 in relation to storm surges entering St. 8 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet banks
9 Bernard Parish? 9 attributable to wave wash from ships
10 A. I am not aware. I am not aware. 10 traversing the Gulf Outlet?
11 I'm sure they did, but I am not aware of any. 11 A. Constantly.
12 Q. Do you know if the Corps of 12 Q. And could you tell us the substance
13 Engineers ever studied the Mississippi River 13 of those discussions?
14 Gulf Outlet in relation to hurricane storm 14 A. For years we tried to put a speed
15 surges? 15 limit on the ships so they wouldn't create the
16 A. Not that I am aware of. 16 huge wakes that they were making to tear up
17 Q. Are you aware that the Corps of 17 the banks, and we were very unsuccessful with
18 Engineers indicated through Mr. Bob Buisson at 18 that, except at certain areas where they
19 a MRGO Policy Committee meeting in July 7th of 19 deemed it -- they deemed, the Corps deemed
20 1999 that the Corps of Engineers indicated 20 very important. And that would be at
21 that as a matter of policy, it would only 21 Hopedale, by Bayou LaLoutre, at Shell Beach,
22 study navigation? 22 by Bayou Yscloskey, and at Violet by Bayou
23 A. I am not surprised. 23 Dupre. And they imposed speed limits finally
24 MR. ANDRY: 24 on those three areas. They never enforced
25 And for the purpose -- This is 25 them. You could report it and that's about as
Page 115 Page 117
1 the minutes of the policy meeting from 1 far as you got.
2 it, and I will give you a copy. I 2 Q. When we took the Corps of Engineers'
3 have a copy of that. It should have 3 deposition in relation to the 702-C immunity,
4 been copied. 4 Mr. Naomi was the deponent and he testified
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 5 that the wave wash would erode the banks. Is
6 Q. But going back, as the Coastal Zone 6 that what you observed?
7 Advisory Board, did you ever have occasion to 7 A. Absolutely.
8 discuss, as a board, the -- Could I switch 8 Q. And how, in your estimation, based
9 versions with you? 9 on your experience as a member of the Coastal
10 MR. WOODCOCK: 10 Zone Advisory Board and your observations of
11 Sure. 11 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet throughout
12 MR. ANDRY: 12 your lifetime, how big a problem was the wave
13 There you go. Make sure this is 13 wash erosion of the banks of the Mississippi
14 all the pages. And then give me one 14 River Gulf Outlet?
15 that I can make Exhibit Number 6. 15 MR. WOODCOCK:
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 16 Objection, speculation.
17 Q. Do you know did what the MRGO Policy 17 THE WITNESS:
18 Committee was in 1999? Are you aware of an 18 You have to understand it wasn't
19 entity called the MRGO Policy Committee? 19 just the banks that was being affected
20 A. I think so. That was part of the 20 by this. The wave action could be
21 study group that was done. 21 felt as much as a mile away in canals
22 Q. That was one of the committees that 22 that would go off the -- go off the
23 was done -- whose work ultimately resulted in 23 Gulf Outlet. This water would flow
24 the report of the? 24 into the interior of the marsh; and
25 A. Right. 25 then as a ship passed, it would suck
30 (Pages 114 to 117)

Page 118 Page 120
1 that sucker back out. 1 before Katrina, maybe several years before
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 2 Katrina, Mr. Russo and some people from the
3 Q. And when it sucked it back out, did 3 State of Louisiana DNR, National Marine
4 it effectively suck the marsh out with it? 4 Fisheries, EPA, U.S. Fish and Wildlife, and
5 A. Absolutely. 5 Army Corps and NRCS met with me at my house on
6 Q. Which was then subsequently dredged 6 like a three month basis to see what they
7 out of the bottom of the canal? 7 could do at that particular time to use the
8 A. That's correct. 8 material, the spoil material the best way they
9 Q. Did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board 9 could.
10 ever communicate with the Corps of Engineers 10 Q. Who was that that met at your house?
11 representative concerning wave wash -- or 11 A. I call them God and the disciples.
12 excuse me, erosion of the banks of the 12 Q. Well, who was God and the disciples?
13 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet and marsh from 13 A. That was the Corps and the rest of
14 the ships traversing the Gulf Outlet? 14 the bureaucracy.
15 A. Absolutely. 15 Q. In the Corps, who was there on
16 Q. What Corps representatives would -- 16 behalf of the Corps?
17 or did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board 17 A. That was Mr. Edmond Russo.
18 communicate with regarding -- 18 Q. Mr. Russo?
19 A. Mr. Bob Gunn. 19 A. And I don't remember the rest of
20 Q. Let me finish my question. 20 them.
21 A. Okay. 21 Q. But it was a representative of DNR,
22 Q. -- regarding the erosion of the 22 --
23 banks from wave wash? 23 A. DNR.
24 A. The answer is the same. Mr. Bob 24 Q. -- EPA, --
25 Gunn. Mr. Edmond Russo. These are the two 25 A. EPA, U.S. Fish and Wildlife, and
Page 119 Page 121
1 people -- and I don't remember the lady's name 1 National Marine Fisheries.
2 who is taking Russo's place. 2 Q. Why did these individuals come to
3 Q. Was it Beth Powell? 3 your house?
4 A. I don't know. I really don't know. 4 A. Because we were trying to get some
5 Q. Do you know what she looked like? 5 plan going to actually do something good for
6 A. I never met her. 6 -- with this spoil material. For instance,
7 Q. You never met her? 7 --
8 A. Uh-uh (negatively). No. 8 Q. Well, go ahead, but let me ask you
9 Q. Have you ever spoken with her? 9 this. Were these individuals meeting at your
10 A. No. 10 house in their official capacity as
11 Q. Did Mr. Russo and Mr. Gunn, did they 11 representatives of their respective agencies
12 have any particular position in the Corps that 12 or employers, or were they meeting there as a
13 you know of? 13 group of interested individuals attempting to
14 A. Yes. 14 do something good?
15 Q. What was their position? 15 A. No, they were there on an official
16 A. They were the Project Manager for 16 basis.
17 the navigation on the Gulf Outlet and on the 17 Q. Okay. And what was the -- How did
18 Mississippi River. 18 the first meeting come about?
19 Q. Do you know if they communicated any 19 A. I really don't remember that. It's
20 of the positions of the Coastal Zone Advisory 20 -- I think it actually happened because of
21 Board to their superiors in the Corps of 21 this Technical Committee.
22 Engineers? 22 Q. Okay. Were you a member of the
23 A. I couldn't be certain of that, but I 23 Technical Committee?
24 am sure they did. I'm sure Mr. Russo did, and 24 A. Yes.
25 I will tell you why. In the past, I guess 25 Q. Who else were members of the
31 (Pages 118 to 121)

Page 122 Page 124
1 Technical Committee? 1 Q. When did you first meet Mr. Miller?
2 A. Mr. Rodriguez. 2 A. Probably in the '80s.
3 Q. Was a fellow by the name of 3 Q. And what position did he have at the
4 Hanchey? 4 time?
5 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 5 A. I really couldn't say. It was --
6 Q. Randy Hanchey? 6 Probably when I met him, he was with Mr.
7 A. Yes. 7 Gunn.
8 Q. Let me do this. 8 Q. Where did you meet him?
9 MR. ANDRY: 9 A. As I said, we met him on some of the
10 Off the record. 10 field trips we made on the Gulf Outlet with
11 (Whereupon a discussion was held 11 Mr. Gunn and with Dave Soileau, who was a
12 off the record.) 12 different Soileau. He was Assistant Secretary
13 VIDEO OPERATOR: 13 of DNR.
14 We're back on the record at 14 Q. Okay.
15 12:32. This is the beginning of tape 15 A. And that would probably be in '9- --
16 3. 16 '90, '91, '92.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 17 Q. And when you say field trips, what
18 Q. Before we broke, we were talking 18 field trips were you on?
19 about the Technical Committee for the Gulf 19 A. Well, we were going out there --
20 Outlet and I didn't want to get -- or the MRGO 20 Actually, this was when the State of Louisiana
21 Technical Committee and I didn't want to get 21 did something very unusual, and that's when
22 ahead of us or myself, but let's just go back 22 they refused to issue a permit for the Corps
23 a little bit. Do you know a gentleman by the 23 to dredge, to do some maintenance dredging in
24 name of Cecil Soileau? 24 the Gulf Outlet.
25 A. Cecil Soileau? No, I don't. 25 Q. And what year was that?
Page 123 Page 125
1 Q. Do you know Leo Hubert? 1 A. I think that was around 1990.
2 A. No. 2 Q. Was that after Hurricane Georges?
3 Q. H U B E R T? 3 A. No. I think that was before
4 A. No. 4 Hurricane Georges.
5 Q. Or have you ever heard of Mr. 5 Q. Okay. Why did the State of
6 Hubert? 6 Louisiana refuse to issue a permit to the
7 A. No. 7 Corps to dredge the Mississippi River Gulf
8 Q. Have you ever heard of a Van Stutz? 8 Outlet?
9 A. No. 9 MR. WOODCOCK:
10 Q. What about Greg Miller? 10 Objection, speculation.
11 A. Yes. 11 THE WITNESS:
12 Q. Who is Greg Miller? 12 There is no speculation. Because
13 A. I thought he worked for the Corps. 13 they were not doing the best
14 Q. He does. 14 beneficial use of spoil material when
15 A. Yes. 15 they were dredging. They were just
16 Q. What does Greg Miller -- what 16 using it to put on the south side
17 interaction have you had with Mr. Miller, if 17 instead of the north bank. They were
18 any? 18 not creating marsh with it like the
19 A. Not a lot. 19 directive came down.
20 Q. In what capacity did you have an 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
21 interaction with Mr. Miller? 21 Q. What directive was it and who did it
22 A. He's been on some of the field trips 22 come from?
23 we have taken on the Gulf Outlet. He -- I 23 A. I really don't know who it came
24 guess when I met him, he was not as high up as 24 from, but it was something that came down to
25 he is today. 25 use any kind of dredge material to the best
32 (Pages 122 to 125)

Page 126 Page 128
1 beneficial use to create marsh land. And that 1 the United States Army Corps of Engineers?
2 was either from the Mississippi, the 2 A. Yes.
3 Atchafalaya, or the Ship Channel or any of 3 Q. And how do you know that?
4 these shipping channels in Louisiana. 4 A. Well, because we were on a United
5 Q. Was the directive a Louisiana state 5 States Army Corps of Engineers crewboat,
6 directive or a Corps of Engineers directive? 6 number one. And he was with Mr. Gunn, number
7 A. I think it was a Corps of Engineers 7 two.
8 directive. I think. 8 Q. Did Mr. Miller make any
9 Q. And what do you base your thought 9 representations to you concerning what he
10 that it was a Corps of Engineers directive? 10 observed?
11 A. Because they're the ones that were 11 A. No.
12 doing all of the dredging. 12 Q. Did you have any conversation with
13 Q. And what happened with Louisiana 13 Mr. Miller at all?
14 refusing to issue the permit? 14 A. Not really.
15 A. Some very interesting things 15 Q. Did you have any conversation with
16 happened. We were able to force the Corps to 16 Mr. Gunn while you were on the field trip
17 start putting the spoil material on the north 17 going down the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
18 side of the Gulf Outlet, which would be 18 A. Yes.
19 between the Gulf Outlet and Lake Borgne. And 19 Q. And what representations did Mr.
20 a funny thing happened on the way of doing 20 Gunn make to you?
21 that. 21 A. Mr. Gunn was the Corps of Engineers
22 Q. What is that? 22 Project Manager for the Gulf Outlet and he was
23 A. They were kicking and screaming all 23 in the process of trying at that time, once
24 the way through this; and once they did it and 24 the State denied the permit, of devising a way
25 found out how successful it was, it became the 25 to do the spoil material on the north side.
Page 127 Page 129
1 best idea they ever had. 1 So we had some serious discussions as to how
2 Q. Okay. And it was successful in what 2 that was to be done.
3 way? 3 Q. Did you have any discussion with him
4 A. Well, it made a very beautiful marsh 4 pertaining to the loss of land or marsh on the
5 again where you had a deteriorating marsh that 5 north side of the Gulf Outlet?
6 went from a deterioration standpoint to 6 A. Yes.
7 something that was a viable marsh. 7 Q. And what were the substance of those
8 Q. Okay. Tell me about Mr. Miller on 8 discussions?
9 the field trips. Which field trips did Mr. 9 A. Well, in some of the areas that we
10 Miller go on with you? 10 were going to see, the actual right-of-way had
11 A. I really can't be specific. I don't 11 been exceeded, which was 750 feet at that
12 remember. 12 point of width that was exceeded over the --
13 Q. And what was the purpose of the 13 the area that was water or land. And I guess
14 field trips? 14 I confused myself there.
15 A. The purpose of the field trips was 15 Q. No, no. Did Mr. Gunn make any
16 to -- the first one was actually to look at 16 comment to you pertaining to his observation
17 the deterioration of the north side of the 17 of the loss of land on the north side of the
18 Gulf Outlet. 18 Gulf Outlet during the field trip that you
19 Q. And that would be the area -- 19 went on the Corps of Engineers vessel
20 A. From Bayou Bienvenue to Hopedale. 20 pertaining to spoil placement on the north
21 Q. Okay. And did you have any 21 side of the channel?
22 conversation with Mr. Miller -- Was he 22 A. Yes.
23 appearing on the field trip as you call -- on 23 Q. And what comments did he make?
24 the trip down the Mississippi River Gulf 24 A. Well, he was basically at that point
25 Outlet in his capacity as a representative of 25 attempting to get this approved by the
33 (Pages 126 to 129)

Page 130 Page 132
1 higher-ups and to do it in the most feasible 1 field trips?
2 way they could do it. 2 A. Most of the field trips were to do
3 Q. Did he tell you who his higher-ups 3 with the erosion of the bank on the Gulf -- on
4 were? 4 the MRGO.
5 A. The Colonel, whoever he was at the 5 Q. Did Mr. Russo ever communicate to
6 time. 6 you?
7 Q. Did Mr. Gunn communicate to you on 7 A. No, you asked about Mr. Gunn.
8 the field trip anything about the MRGO being 8 Q. I'm sorry. Did Mr. Gunn ever
9 attributable, or causing the loss of land on 9 communicate to you why the bank eroded on the
10 the north side of the channel? 10 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
11 A. I really can't say that he did. It 11 A. Not that I recall.
12 was quite obvious, but I really can't say that 12 Q. On any of the field trips you went
13 he ever specifically told me that the loss of 13 on, did a ship ever traverse the Gulf Outlet
14 land was for whatever reason. 14 at the same time?
15 Q. Other than the field trip with Mr. 15 A. Not that I recall, actually.
16 Miller, did you have any other occasion to 16 Q. Did you go on field trips with Mr.
17 interact with him from the time you met him 17 Russo?
18 forward? 18 A. I don't think so. The only thing I
19 A. I'm sure at some of the meetings 19 did with Mr. Russo is he was one of the people
20 that we went to with the Corps, I'm sure I ran 20 that I was meeting with at my house.
21 into him, but, relatively speaking, I really 21 Q. How many times did Mr. Russo come to
22 didn't have a whole lot of dealings with him. 22 your house?
23 I just knew who he was and met him. 23 A. Probably four or five times.
24 Q. Did he ever attend, to your 24 Q. Did you ever have any discussions
25 knowledge, a meeting of the Coastal Zone 25 with Mr. Russo pertaining to the MRGO channel
Page 131 Page 133
1 Management Board -- or, excuse me, the Coastal 1 serving as a funnel for storm surges to enter
2 Zone Advisory Board? 2 St. Bernard Parish?
3 A. I don't recall. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Do you know Miss Nancy 4 Q. And what's the substance of those
5 Powell? 5 discussions?
6 A. No. 6 A. Mr. Russo said that the Mississippi
7 Q. Do you know Mr. Robert Buisson? 7 River Gulf Outlet would only contribute six
8 A. No. 8 inches in height to any storm surge that came
9 Q. What about Mr. Edmond Russo? 9 up the MRGO.
10 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did he tell you how he came upon
11 Q. What dealings, if any, have you had 11 that knowledge?
12 with Mr. Edmond Russo? 12 A. That was their modeling, he said.
13 A. Mr. Edmond Russo was the man who 13 Q. And do you know when that modeling
14 took Mr. Gunn's place after Mr. Gunn passed 14 was done?
15 away, and he became the Project Manager for 15 A. I really can't say.
16 the MRGO and for the Mississippi River. 16 Q. Do you know when the modeling was
17 Q. Did you ever have occasion to go on 17 done?
18 a field trip with Mr. Gunn other than the one 18 A. I really can't say. Somewhere in --
19 you just told us about in and around 1990? 19 I guess this would have been in the early
20 A. I went on many field trips with Mr. 20 '90s.
21 Gunn. 21 Q. Did you ever have any conversations
22 Q. And were those field trips up and 22 with Mr. Russo pertaining to the loss of
23 down the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 23 wetlands being attributable to the Mississippi
24 A. That's correct. 24 River Gulf Outlet?
25 Q. And what was the purpose of those 25 A. Yes.
34 (Pages 130 to 133)

Page 134 Page 136
1 Q. And could you tell me the substance 1 the Gulf Outlet in the '90s at the public
2 of those communications? 2 meeting?
3 A. This is when we were meeting with 3 MR. WOODCOCK:
4 Mr. Russo and the rest of the bureaucrats and 4 Objection, speculation.
5 we were attempting at that time to start using 5 THE WITNESS:
6 the material from dredging the MRGO to start 6 They could see the damage that
7 putting some of these islands back and to 7 was being done to our parish by this
8 start filling up areas that were deteriorated 8 thing. We were washing away.
9 badly, either on the south or the north side 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
10 of the MRGO -- of MRGO. 10 Q. Would that be consistent with the
11 Q. And what did he tell you in those 11 Corps of Engineers statement on page 47 of
12 conversations pertaining to the MRGO causing a 12 their report that -- right below "increased
13 loss of wetlands? 13 land loss caused by hydrologic changes brought
14 A. I really can't recall him ever 14 in by the MRGO --"
15 saying that the MRGO was the cause of wetlands 15 A. Yes.
16 loss. 16 Q. -- wherein they say "The MRGO
17 Q. What did he say with regard to 17 directly destroyed wetlands and caused shifts
18 wetlands? 18 in habitat types"?
19 A. I really can't say, because I don't 19 A. Yes.
20 remember. 20 Q. And it says "In addition to shifting
21 Q. Fair enough. Other than the 21 habitat types, the higher salinity and greater
22 meetings at your house the few times that Mr. 22 tidal exchange and fragile wetlands, increased
23 Russo came to your house, did you have any 23 wetland loss above that which would have
24 other dealings with Mr. Russo? 24 occurred without the MRGO"?
25 A. Oh, I have seen him at public 25 A. That's correct.
Page 135 Page 137
1 hearings with -- on the Gulf Outlet where we 1 MR. WOODCOCK:
2 petitioned the Corps and the Federal 2 Excuse me.
3 government to close it. 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
4 Q. And when you say "we petitioned", 4 Q. And that's the same type of
5 who is "we"? 5 observation that was told to you by the people
6 A. They had public meetings in St. 6 --
7 Bernard Parish to petition to close this white 7 MR. ANDRY:
8 elephant that we had. 8 I'm sorry?
9 Q. And what time period are we talking 9 MR. WOODCOCK:
10 about? 10 What document are we looking at?
11 A. I am talking about, ooh, in the 11 MR. ANDRY:
12 early '90s. 12 I'm looking at page 48 of the
13 Q. And was this a citizen meeting? 13 Corps report.
14 A. This was a public hearing, public 14 MR. WOODCOCK:
15 meeting where people had a right to stand up 15 Of this one?
16 and express their opinion. 16 MR. ANDRY:
17 Q. And was it before the St. Bernard 17 Specifically --
18 Council? 18 MR. WOODCOCK:
19 A. This was not. This was a meeting 19 Of the actual document. Not the
20 that was held in the Cultural Center ballroom 20 Bates number.
21 or in the auditorium part that was attended by 21 (Whereupon a discussion was held
22 I'd say 500 people that voiced their opinion 22 off the record.)
23 on the Gulf Outlet, and about 499 of them said 23 MR. ANDRY:
24 "Close it". 24 I am on page 48.
25 Q. And why did the 499 people say close 25 MR. WOODCOCK:
35 (Pages 134 to 137)

Page 138 Page 140
1 Okay. 1 would be?
2 MR. ANDRY: 2 A. I have no idea what would have
3 And 47 where they talk about 3 happened to it.
4 right below increased land loss caused 4 Q. Or who videotaped it?
5 by that. 5 A. I -- I know -- I think the Parish
6 MR. WOODCOCK: 6 videotaped it.
7 Okay. Thanks. 7 Q. And do you know for sure whether Mr.
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 8 -- Do you know whether Mr. Russo attended the
9 Q. But that was the same concern that 9 meeting on the closure of the Gulf Outlet in
10 was communicated to you by all of the 499 10 the '90s?
11 individuals -- 11 A. Yes.
12 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And so you know for a fact he was
13 Q. -- at the public meeting in 1990 13 there?
14 that wanted to close the Gulf Outlet? 14 A. I am positive he was there. I heard
15 A. That's correct. 15 him say -- That's when I heard him say it will
16 Q. Were there any representatives from 16 only increase the volume of water by six
17 the Corps of Engineers at that meeting? 17 inches in the Gulf Outlet and I almost had a
18 A. Oh, sure. I really don't remember 18 stroke.
19 -- I mean, I'm sure this was attended by Mr. 19 Q. And why did you almost have a stroke
20 Russo and Mr. Miller. Mr. Gunn was deceased 20 when he made that statement?
21 at the time. Let see who else was there. Mr. 21 A. Because I knew that was not true.
22 Axman was there. Mr. Troy Constance was 22 Q. And did you know that based upon
23 there. 23 observations?
24 Q. Who is Mr. Axman? 24 A. Observation. That's correct.
25 A. Oh, Mr. Axman is one of the 25 Q. And even though -- Other than -- Let
Page 139 Page 141
1 employees of the Corps of Engineers. He's -- 1 me ask you this. Did you ever have occasion
2 I don't really know his title offhand. But 2 to observe the Gulf Outlet and surrounding
3 he's been there a long, long time. 3 area during storms in your entire history --
4 Q. Is he still at the Corps of 4 A. Yes.
5 Engineers, to your knowledge? 5 Q. -- of living in that area?
6 A. To my knowledge, I think so. 6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What about Mr. Troy Constance? 7 Q. Did you ever have occasion to be in
8 A. He's still there also. 8 the Gulf Outlet in a time of high tide?
9 Q. Did you ever meet a Corps employee 9 A. Yes, but you had to be very careful,
10 named P. A. Becnel? 10 because you might get locked out of there.
11 A. No. 11 Q. You say you might get locked out of
12 Q. Is Mr. Constance still with the 12 there, what do you mean?
13 Corps of Engineers? 13 A. In other words, in a time of high
14 A. Yes. 14 tide they shut the locks because it'll flood
15 Q. Do you know what his position with 15 Paris Road.
16 the Corps of Engineers is? 16 Q. Okay. And is that --
17 A. He's some engineer. 17 A. But that's that six inches.
18 Q. Was there an announcement for the 18 Q. Right, because that's the increase
19 public meeting that might have been published 19 in height -- But what I am asking is, is based
20 in The St. Bernard Parish Voice so that I 20 on your observations in storms, as I
21 could figure out what time it was if I went 21 understand to be low pressure events and
22 back and looked? 22 higher tides, --
23 A. It should be. It was also on 23 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
24 videotape. 24 Q. -- since the building of the Gulf
25 Q. Do you know where that videotape 25 Outlet have you -- Or, excuse me. Since the
36 (Pages 138 to 141)

Page 142 Page 144
1 Gulf Outlet was put in, does it get higher in 1 talked about storm surge and we talked about
2 times of storms and high tide? 2 bank erosion. Did the St. Bernard Parish
3 A. Absolutely. 3 Council pass a resolution to enact a speed
4 Q. And is there a pronounced difference 4 limit on the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
5 in the water level during those events? 5 A. Yes.
6 A. Absolutely. And that's why they 6 Q. And why did they do that?
7 closed the locks. 7 A. Because of bank erosion.
8 Q. Okay. And that would be the Bayou 8 Q. And was it felt that the lower the
9 Bienvenue locks? 9 speed, the less erosion?
10 A. And Violet locks. 10 A. That's correct. They got a lot of
11 Q. And the Violet locks? 11 opposition from the Steamship Association.
12 A. I mean, you sneeze and they close 12 Q. Now, tell me about the Coastal Zone
13 them. 13 Advisory Board meetings. Did they ever
14 Q. Okay. What about Victor Landry; do 14 attribute the wetland -- or did the Coastal
15 you know Victor Landry? 15 Zone Advisory Board ever attribute wetland
16 A. No. 16 loss to the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
17 Q. Other than the meeting in -- the 17 A. Yes.
18 public meeting in St. Bernard and the meetings 18 Q. And what studies or information did
19 at your house, did you have any other dealings 19 the Coastal Zone Advisory Board review in
20 with Mr. Russo? 20 order to make that determination?
21 A. No. 21 A. Well, the first one was a study that
22 Q. What about, do you know of a Corps 22 Dr. Gagliano did called "A study in wetlands
23 employee named Al Naomi? 23 management in St. Bernard Parish" which I
24 A. Yes. 24 think was done in 1981. And that was a pretty
25 Q. How do you know Mr. Naomi? 25 thorough examination of the situation at that
Page 143 Page 145
1 A. Because of some of these meetings. 1 time.
2 I don't really know him. I know who he is. 2 Q. And then did you ever hear of a
3 Q. Have you ever had an occasion to 3 study by a guy named Shambrick?
4 speak with Mr. Al Naomi? 4 A. I knew Shambrick, yes.
5 A. No, not really. 5 Q. Who is Mr. Shambrick?
6 Q. Have you ever had any occasion to 6 A. Dr. Shambrick was a professor at
7 hear Mr. Al Naomi speak? 7 LSU.
8 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what study did Dr. Shambrick
9 Q. And what did he say when you heard 9 perform?
10 him? 10 A. I really don't remember offhand.
11 A. I really don't recall. 11 Q. Okay.
12 Q. Do you know when it was that he 12 A. But Dr. Shambrick and Mr. Ensminger
13 spoke that you -- 13 are a lot -- you know, did a lot of these
14 A. I don't recall. 14 studies together.
15 Q. Did he ever come to your house and 15 Q. Do you know a lady by the name of
16 talk about -- 16 Miss Sue Hawes?
17 A. No. 17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Or meet with you? 18 Q. Did you ever have any opportunity to
19 A. No. 19 interact with Sue Hawes?
20 Q. Now, there was some discussion, and 20 A. Yes.
21 let me go back and make sure I'm finished with 21 Q. Who is Miss Sue Hawes?
22 Coastal Zone Advisory Board issues and then 22 A. She was an employee of the Corps of
23 we'll go to the Technical Committee. 23 Engineers.
24 The Coastal Zone Advisory Board, 24 Q. And how often did you have an
25 we talked about storm surge -- Excuse me. We 25 interaction with Miss Sue Hawes?
37 (Pages 142 to 145)

Page 146 Page 148
1 A. Oh, maybe once every three or four 1 A. I don't recall that. All I know is
2 months. 2 I have talked to her as with the -- when we
3 Q. And in what capacity did you 3 got on the Technical Committee as to what we
4 interact with Miss Sue Hawes? 4 did lose in St. Bernard with the building of
5 A. She would sometimes come to our 5 the Gulf Outlet.
6 Coastal Zone Advisory Board meetings. 6 Q. Okay. Now, tell me about the
7 Q. And was she the Corps of Engineers 7 Technical Committee. There is a Technical
8 employee in charge of wetlands? 8 Committee that I understand -- And
9 A. I don't really remember. She may 9 specifically I'll mark this as Exhibit Number
10 have been. 10 7. I think that --
11 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with 11 MR. ANDRY:
12 Miss Sue Hawes pertaining to wetlands? 12 And there you go. You already
13 A. Yes. 13 have a copy of it. It's the same
14 Q. And how often did you have those 14 thing.
15 discussions? 15 MR. WOODCOCK:
16 A. Every time I saw her. 16 Okay.
17 Q. And did she ever communicate 17 MR. ANDRY:
18 anything to you about wetlands during these 18 I'm going to mark it as Exhibit
19 conversations? 19 Number 7.
20 A. She and I had a very big difference 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
21 of opinion. 21 Q. Which is a group of documents that
22 Q. What was the difference of opinion? 22 talked about -- and ask you if you can look
23 A. She thought everything should be 23 through there and tell me if you have ever
24 open. I thought everything should be closed. 24 seen any of these documents.
25 Q. And could you explain that to me? 25 MR. ANDRY:
Page 147 Page 149
1 A. She thought every little trenasse 1 And for the purposes of the
2 and every little bayou should be open to the 2 record, the documents are Bates
3 flow and ebb of the water, and I didn't agree 3 numbered 10240034.001 through -- I
4 with that. I thought it should be regulated. 4 thought they were sequential. My
5 Q. Did you ever tell Miss Hawes that 5 bad. And then also page 2 of the
6 you observed a wetland loss, a drastic wetland 6 document is 10240001.001 and 002 and
7 loss and forest loss after the installation of 7 003.
8 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
9 A. I'm sure I did. I don't really 9 Q. We'll just go through them and I
10 remember exactly what I told her. 10 will ask you questions as I go through;
11 Q. I mean, did you ever talk to her 11 that'll be easier rather than just me --
12 that, in your view, the Mississippi River Gulf 12 Okay. Mr. Livaudais, have you
13 Outlet destroyed the wetland property and 13 ever seen any of these documents before?
14 forest property owned by the Borgnemouth 14 A. Yes.
15 Corporation? 15 Q. Well, let me ask you some questions
16 A. Sure. 16 and I will ask you specifically. The page
17 Q. And what was her response? 17 10240001.001 through 003 is a resolution to
18 A. She basically agreed with it. 18 close the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet by the
19 Q. What did she tell you specifically? 19 St. Bernard Parish Council passed December
20 A. I can't really remember specifically 20 15th of 1998.
21 what she told me. That's a long time ago. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But did you ever have a conversation 22 Q. Okay. Other than the document
23 wherein Miss Hawes told you that she believed 23 itself, do you have any knowledge of this
24 that the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet caused 24 resolution being passed?
25 wetland loss in St. Bernard Parish? 25 A. Yes. We recommended that this was
38 (Pages 146 to 149)

Page 150 Page 152
1 done with -- through the Coastal Zone Advisory 1 District. Did you know Colonel William
2 Board. 2 Conners?
3 Q. And did the Coastal Zone Advisory 3 A. I have spoken to him. Not very
4 Board, about the sixth finding that says 4 often.
5 "Whereas the land loss from the MRGO, 5 Q. And what is the substance of the
6 combined with the hurricane damage, now makes 6 conversations that you've had?
7 the residents of Plaquemine, Orleans, and St. 7 A. Just to tell him hello.
8 Bernard Parishes more vulnerable to tropical 8 Q. Have you ever had any discussions
9 storms than at any time in history", did the 9 with him pertaining to the Mississippi River
10 Coastal Zone Advisory Board make that 10 Gulf Outlet?
11 finding? 11 A. No. I let Junior do that.
12 A. That was probably not made by the 12 Q. Did he ever come to the Coastal Zone
13 Coastal Zone Board. 13 Advisory Board meetings?
14 Q. Okay. In looking at -- Finding 14 A. I don't recall if he ever came.
15 number 3 says "Whereas saltwater intrusion has 15 Q. Okay. Now, page 3 of the resolution
16 virtually destroyed intermediate water marshes 16 dated December 15th, 1998 and says "Proposed
17 and freshwater swamps surrounding Lake Borgne 17 structure of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet
18 resulting from opening the MRGO", would the 18 Task Force" and it goes on to have Technical
19 Zone Advisory Board have made that finding? 19 Advisory Committee members. Is that the
20 A. Many times. 20 Technical Advisory Committee that you spoke of
21 Q. Did you observe that phenomenon in 21 earlier?
22 your own experience on your property? 22 A. That was part of it. That was also
23 A. Yes. 23 broken down into subcommittees.
24 Q. The last part of -- or the first 24 Q. Okay. And in jumping ahead in the
25 one, finding says "Whereas the construction of 25 documents I have attached together as Exhibit
Page 151 Page 153
1 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet which opened 1 7, the second-to-last page of the group, which
2 in 1963 destroyed a 4,750 foot wide, 37 mile 2 is numbered 10230001.028, it says "MRGO
3 long strip of wetlands and swamps." Period. 3 committees and membership, revised June 26,
4 It goes on to say "Ship traffic has aggravated 4 1999". Does that show how the MRGO Task Force
5 erosion of the banks --" 5 was broken down into subcommittees that you
6 A. "And caused". 6 just spoke of?
7 Q. "-- and caused the channel to widen 7 A. Yes.
8 up to 2,000 feet from suction that pulls on 8 Q. Okay. And then was there a
9 sediments in the outlet's banks. The ship's 9 Technical Committee that met prior to, or a
10 wake creates waves that batter the banks, 10 group that called themself the Technical
11 causing them to fall apart." Is that 11 Committee that met prior to 1998, to your
12 something that you actually observed in the 12 knowledge?
13 times you were in the Gulf Outlet and watched 13 A. I don't really know.
14 ships traversing the Gulf Outlet? 14 Q. And the reason why I ask is we have
15 A. Yes. 15 -- and I will show y'all. I just realized
16 Q. Would that have been a finding that 16 this when I went upstairs to see. I have a
17 would have been made by the Coastal Zone 17 document which is MRGO-Y-10388 through
18 Advisory Board? 18 MRGO-Y-10401. And I will make a copy and
19 A. Yes. 19 attach it to the deposition as Exhibit 8. But
20 Q. And in looking at this resolution, 20 it's dated -- it appears to be dated June
21 on page 002 the Council resolved to create a 21 14th, 1994 and you signed -- or I'll ask you
22 MRGO Task Force and that the resolution be 22 if that --
23 forwarded to a bunch of different people, 23 A. That's my signature.
24 including Colonel William Conners of the U.S. 24 Q. It's basically a sign-in and minutes
25 Army Corps of Engineers, New Orleans 25 of the meeting. And ask you if looking at
39 (Pages 150 to 153)

Page 154 Page 156
1 that, is that your signature? 1 A. That would have been the people from
2 A. Yes, it is. 2 the Corps, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife, EPA,
3 Q. Okay. And let's see. There appears 3 the National Marine Fisheries, NRCS and such
4 to be some notes of a meeting of June 14th, 4 as that.
5 1994. Do you know what group this would be? 5 Q. And who, to your knowledge, was a
6 A. I really have no recollection. You 6 member of any of the MRGO Task Force
7 go to so many meetings that they sometimes run 7 committees from the Corps of Engineers?
8 together. 8 A. I'm sure Mr. Russo was a member and
9 Q. Do you know Fred Schilling? 9 I really don't recall anybody else from the
10 A. I don't think so. 10 Corps.
11 Q. There's a Fred Schilling signed in 11 Q. The last page, 10230001.029, says
12 on behalf of the Corps -- with an affiliation 12 "Policy committee, mission statement, to
13 with the Corps of Engineers on page 13 develop a plan to modify the MRGO from a deep
14 MRGO-Y-10389. Somewhere in here they talk 14 draft channel to a shallow draft vessel
15 about this being -- So was there another group 15 channel; to include in the plan hurricane
16 called the Technical Committee prior to the 16 protection safety mitigation and restoration
17 Technical Committee of the MRGO Task Force 17 and economic considerations." And it goes on
18 that was created pursuant to the December 18 to say "This," and I don't know what that word
19 15th, 1998 resolution of the St. Bernard 19 -- "will establish a policy for change." Was
20 Parish Council? 20 that the mission statement of the MRGO Task
21 A. I know that the St. Bernard Parish 21 Force created pursuant to the St. Bernard
22 Council and also the Police Jury has passed 22 Parish December 15th -- Council's resolution
23 resolutions for years asking them to close 23 of December 15th, 1998?
24 this thing. But I don't know of any other 24 A. That was my understanding.
25 Technical Committee that was formed in 1994. 25 Q. What were you asked to do -- what
Page 155 Page 157
1 Q. How did you first find out that 1 was your function on the Task Force in or
2 there was a resolution by the St. Bernard 2 post-1998? Post-December -- Excuse me. What
3 Parish Council in 1998 that formed a MRGO Task 3 was your function on the Task Force
4 Force? 4 post-December 15th of 1998?
5 A. Well, as I have said before, the 5 A. We were to investigate the areas
6 Coastal Zone Advisory Board recommended to St. 6 that were destroyed by the construction of the
7 Bernard Parish that they do so. 7 MRGO and the areas that the erosion destroyed
8 Q. Okay. And were you a member of any 8 and come up with a figure as to what it would
9 of the committees that were formed in 9 take to revegetate it as far as replant it
10 conjunction with the formation of the Task 10 with cypress trees and oak trees and such as
11 Force? 11 that. We also were told to start studying the
12 A. That was in 1998? 12 economic impact of the loss of, with the fur
13 Q. Yes. 13 industry, the alligator industry and so forth,
14 A. I was an interested -- involved in a 14 which we did.
15 subcommittee under the heading Special 15 Q. Okay. And how did you determine
16 Interests Subcommittees. 16 what effect, if any, it had on the timber --
17 Q. And who was on the committee with 17 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet had on the
18 you? 18 timber industry in St. Bernard Parish?
19 A. My wife and Mr. Weber, and Mr. 19 A. In dealing with the people from LSU,
20 Rodriguez was the chairman; and I don't really 20 we dealt with the people from Natural
21 remember the rest of them. They had a person 21 Resources Conservation Service, and we dealt
22 from the -- I think they had some of the 22 with Miss Sue Hawes who was helpful in
23 bureaucrats involved in it. 23 informing us as to what was there and what
24 Q. When you say "the bureaucrats", who 24 disappeared and what should be done. And with
25 were they? 25 LSU, we went into the economics of the cost of
40 (Pages 154 to 157)

Page 158 Page 160
1 doing this. And with NRCS, we did the same 1 Q. And were they kept by the secretary
2 thing as far as the revegetation, as to what 2 of the Technical Committee at the time of the
3 it would cost, as to what would have to be 3 meeting?
4 done to be able to do this and so forth and so 4 A. Correct. Now, I couldn't tell you
5 on. 5 who that was because we didn't meet all the
6 Q. Who was on your committee with you? 6 time with the Technical Committee.
7 A. I think it was my wife and Mr. Bill 7 Q. Okay. Who was on the Technical
8 Weber. 8 Committee?
9 Q. What is your wife's first name? 9 A. That was the -- That was the
10 A. Rebecca. 10 bureaucratic part of it where you had the EPA
11 Q. And it was you, Rebecca Livaudais, 11 guy or person who was running the minute --
12 Bill Weber and who else? 12 the meeting. This was an EPA project. And so
13 A. Bill Weber. I don't recall. 13 you had somebody from EPA, you had somebody
14 Q. Did y'all have occasion to meet on a 14 from National Marine Fisheries, somebody from
15 regular basis? 15 U.S. Fish and Wildlife. I think the guy from
16 A. Yes. 16 U.S. Fish and Wildlife, his name was Darryl
17 Q. And when you met on a regular basis, 17 Clark, if I am not mistaken.
18 did someone in your group take notes about the 18 Q. Okay. Look at, if you would, in
19 minutes of the meeting? 19 Exhibit 7, document 10230001.020 which says
20 A. Probably not. 20 "MRGO committee representatives". And ask if
21 Q. I asked that because on page 21 that refreshes your recollection about who the
22 123001.017 of Exhibit 7, it's an agenda from 22 members of the various groups -- the
23 MRGO Policy Committee dated August 11, 1999, 23 representatives of the various groups was.
24 and the first -- 24 A. Yeah. Darryl Clark was with the
25 A. Okay. 25 U.S. Fish and Wildlife. And --
Page 159 Page 161
1 Q. -- item on the agenda is adopt the 1 Q. It says that Mr. Buisson was a
2 minutes from the last meeting. 2 member of the Corps of Engineers.
3 A. All right. 3 A. I don't know Mr. Buisson. But John
4 Q. And I was wondering if they kept 4 Scuritch was on our committee. And, as I say,
5 minutes. 5 Mr. Rodriguez was a member of our committee.
6 A. See, I was confused, because the way 6 He was the head of our committee.
7 you said it was, I was wondering if you were 7 Q. And in looking at page 10230001.023,
8 talking about when the -- we got together to 8 which is also in Exhibit Number 7, it's the
9 come up with this or the whole Technical 9 MRGO Closure Technical Committee roll call
10 Committee got together. That's a different 10 list of August 19th, 1999. Were you on the
11 story. 11 MRGO Closure Technical Committee?
12 Q. Okay. Well, tell me about the 12 A. No.
13 Technical Committee. When the Technical 13 Q. What specifically was the purpose of
14 Committee got together, did someone in the 14 the MRGO Closure Technical Committee, to the
15 group keep minutes? 15 extent you know?
16 A. Someone in there kept minutes, 16 A. I have no idea.
17 that's correct. 17 Q. And do you know how that differed
18 Q. And were those minutes kept 18 from your committee?
19 contemporaneously with the actual meeting 19 A. No.
20 itself? 20 Q. In this group of documents -- With
21 A. Yes. 21 the meeting that you told us about earlier
22 Q. And were they kept, were the minutes 22 that was a public meeting that was attended by
23 kept as part of the ordinary course and scope 23 Mr. Russo in the '90s, would that meeting have
24 of the business of the Technical Committee? 24 occurred prior to the work of the Mississippi
25 A. That's correct. 25 River Gulf Outlet Task Force in conjunction
41 (Pages 158 to 161)

Page 162 Page 164
1 with the December 15th, 1998 resolution by St. 1 Q. Did you conclude that the value of
2 Bernard Parish? 2 wetlands as a protection against hurricanes,
3 A. I don't know. I really couldn't 3 storm surges, and as a buffer for wind and
4 tell you. 4 wave action is too costly to calculate a
5 Q. Could that meeting have been part of 5 dollar figure?
6 -- 6 A. That's correct.
7 A. Could have been. 7 Q. Where did you get that information
8 Q. -- the work of the MRGO Task Force? 8 to make that conclusion?
9 A. It could have been. 9 A. Well, when you start thinking about
10 I can't believe you didn't object 10 the protection it gives against hurricane
11 to that. That's speculation. 11 surges and things like that, it just -- it's
12 Q. Now, in here they have document 12 quite obvious to me that it -- you cannot
13 1023001.004 through -- excuse me. It's just 13 figure it. Because how do you know how much
14 04 and 05, which is a Mississippi River -- 14 is going to be damaged as a result of the loss
15 It's a paper prepared by Dr. Gagliano for the 15 as opposed to what would have been if it
16 St. Bernard Parish Government which indicates 16 wasn't gone?
17 it was presented at the Mississippi River Gulf 17 Q. Well, let me ask you this. Did you
18 Outlet meeting convened by the U.S. EPA, 18 write this report which is depicted on pages
19 Region 6, at the University of New Orleans on 19 17 and 18 of Exhibit Number 4?
20 May 25th, 1999. Did you attend that meeting? 20 A. Yes.
21 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Okay. And did you in here conclude
22 Q. Are you familiar with the paper 22 that a devastating Category 5 hurricane could
23 written by Dr. Gagilano, which I believe is 23 cause billions of dollars of damage in St.
24 contained in Exhibit Number 4, if I am not 24 Bernard due to the loss of wetlands due to the
25 mistaken? Well, have you ever seen the 25 construction of the MRGO?
Page 163 Page 165
1 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet seeking the 1 A. Yes.
2 solution prepared by Dr. Gagliano? 2 Q. And what did you mean by that
3 A. Yes. 3 statement?
4 Q. And do you know what the substance 4 A. Exactly what the statement said. We
5 of that report was? 5 were losing our hurricane protection. We had
6 A. I can't recall without reading it 6 lost our cypress swamp for -- as a buffer
7 again. It's been a while since I have read 7 zone. We were losing our marsh rapidly. We
8 it. They all run together after a while. 8 had no more marsh between the Ship Channel and
9 Q. Now, in Exhibit 4, let's see, page 9 Lake Borgne to stop any surges. We were
10 17, which is specifically NAD-188000001529, 10 losing our interior marsh to open water, which
11 it's Exhibit 4, which should be that one. 11 was stopping any surge, and it could be a
12 A. The big one. 12 devastation. In actuality, that's exactly
13 Q. That one. There's a report to the 13 what happened to us.
14 Environmental Subcommittee, Mr. Henry J. 14 Q. Well, this was in 1999 when you
15 Rodriguez, Chairman, by Gatien Livaudais, St. 15 prepared this report.
16 Bernard Parish Wetlands Foundation. Is that 16 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
17 the report that you prepared? 17 Q. Did you provide a copy to Miss Hawes
18 A. Yes. 18 with the Army Corps of Engineers?
19 Q. Did you have conversations with Miss 19 A. No.
20 Sue Hawes concerning wetland loss? 20 Q. Do you know if it was provided to
21 Specifically did she tell you that there were 21 Mr. Buisson, who's listed as the Corps
22 more than 16,500 acres of marsh that were 22 representative on the roster of employees, or
23 either filled or excavated due to the 23 the roster of committee members that we looked
24 construction of the MRGO? 24 at in Exhibit 8?
25 A. That's correct. 25 A. I have no idea.
42 (Pages 162 to 165)

Page 166 Page 168
1 Q. Did you ever discuss with any Corps 1 Q. Do you know what happened to your
2 representative your opinion that a devastating 2 report after you drafted it?
3 Category 5 hurricane could cause billions of 3 A. No. I gave it to the people that I
4 dollars in damage to St. Bernard Parish due to 4 was supposed to give it to and that's the last
5 the loss of wetlands due to the construction 5 I saw it for quite a while.
6 of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet? 6 Q. Exhibit 4 is titled "The report of
7 A. I am sure at some point I told 7 the Environmental Subcommittee to the MRGO
8 somebody in the Corps that, but I couldn't 8 Technical Committee of March 16th, 2000". Do
9 tell you right now who. 9 you know if the MRGO Technical Committee
10 Q. And has the Corps -- You told them 10 rendered a final report?
11 that in 1999. Or would you have told them -- 11 A. No.
12 made the statement to the Corps about the -- 12 Q. Was the Exhibit Number 4, the report
13 Did you ever tell Mr. Russo, for example? 13 of the Environmental Subcommittee, was that
14 A. Sure. 14 the final report from the Environmental
15 Q. That a Category 5 hurricane could 15 Subcommittee?
16 cause billions of dollars in St. Bernard 16 A. I don't know.
17 Parish? 17 Q. And -- Excuse me.
18 A. Absolutely. 18 A. I know it was my final report.
19 Q. What was his response? 19 Q. Other than the report you gave on
20 A. "You're only going to have a 20 the timber and vegetation, were you asked to
21 six-inch raise in the Ship Channel." 21 provide any other reports --
22 Q. What about Mr. Gunn; did you ever 22 A. No.
23 tell him that a devastating Category 5 23 Q. -- in conjunction with your work on
24 hurricane could cause billions of dollars of 24 the Environmental Subcommittee?
25 damage? 25 A. No.
Page 167 Page 169
1 A. I think Mr. Gunn knew that. 1 Q. And do you know what happened to the
2 Q. And why do you say Mr. Gunn knew 2 report of the Environmental Subcommittee after
3 that? 3 it was drafted?
4 A. Because Mr. Gunn was a person who 4 A. I have no idea.
5 was trying to help us in any way he could and 5 Q. Would that be a better question
6 he knew what was going on. 6 directed at Junior Rodriguez?
7 Q. Did he communicate to you that he 7 A. Yes.
8 knew what was going on? 8 Q. Do you think Junior would know what
9 A. Yes. 9 happened to this report after it was drafted?
10 Q. And what specifically did he 10 A. I'm sure he would. Either he or Dr.
11 communicate to you? 11 Gagliano.
12 A. He basically told me that the -- the 12 MR. ANDRY:
13 problem, he could see the problem, but he 13 Let me just go off the record.
14 couldn't do anything about it. 14 VIDEO OPERATOR:
15 Q. Okay. Why couldn't he do anything 15 We're going off the record at
16 about it? 16 1:33.
17 A. Because of the Federal restrictions 17 (Recess.)
18 on his job. 18 VIDEO OPERATOR:
19 Q. Do you know if he communicated, if 19 We're back on the record at
20 he ever communicated to his superiors your 20 2:04.
21 conclusion that a devastating Category 5 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
22 hurricane could cause billions of dollars of 22 Q. And going back on the record, let me
23 damage in St. Bernard Parish? 23 correct something that my secretary, or my
24 A. I don't know. He isn't here for me 24 assistant pointed out to me. She pointed out
25 to ask. 25 that I can't read.
43 (Pages 166 to 169)

Page 170 Page 172
1 I had mentioned in Exhibit Number 1 never can think that it would happen to you.
2 7 that it didn't appear that there was the 2 And when all your earthly possessions are
3 entire report from Mr. Gagliano, and she 3 destroyed, it's -- it's mind boggling that at
4 pointed out so me that the resolution is 4 this particular point in your life you have
5 actually part of the report and that the 5 got to start from scratch, you have to either
6 report is behind that. So that the whole 6 rebuild your house or build a new one or get
7 report is in Exhibit 7. 7 out -- You can move away from here, which so
8 MR. ANDRY: 8 many people did, and that was one of the
9 Now, could you read back the last 9 hardest things to accept, the fact that these
10 question prior to that statement? 10 people that we knew for so many years didn't
11 (Requested testimony read back.) 11 live there any more; they lived in other parts
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY: 12 of the city or other parts of the country and
13 Q. Okay. Now, in the report to the 13 you don't see them, you don't talk to them,
14 Environmental Subcommittee that you drafted 14 you don't think about them because they're not
15 dealing with timber and vegetation wherein you 15 there. And that --
16 say "A devastating Category 5 hurricane could 16 Q. Where?
17 cause billions of dollars of damage to St. 17 A. -- is terrible.
18 Bernard Parish due to the loss of wetlands due 18 Q. Polly Boudreaux, when we deposed her
19 to the construction of the Mississippi River 19 and I asked her what she lost in St. Bernard
20 Gulf Outlet", you made that statement in 20 or what St. Bernard lost, she said, "We lost
21 1999. Right? 21 our community that day, Jon."
22 A. That's correct. 22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Now, let's forward to 2005, in 23 Q. Would be a fair statement?
24 August 29th of 2005. Where were you August 24 A. That's a very fair statement. We
25 29th of 2005, six years after you made that 25 lost our nice community.
Page 171 Page 173
1 statement? 1 Q. Tell me about what you found when
2 A. Monroe. 2 you and your wife came back to St. Bernard in
3 Q. And why were you in Monroe? 3 October of 2005.
4 A. Because I got the hell out of Dodge. 4 A. We found everything in our
5 Q. And why did you get the hell out of 5 downstairs upside down. It stunk like hell.
6 Dodge? 6 We had six inches of mud in our house. I
7 A. Because any time you see a hurricane 7 guess it was the -- Supposedly, I guess that
8 that covers the entire Gulf of Mexico, it's 8 was the marsh that was there, that was left of
9 time to get out of town. 9 it. We didn't find a bird or an animal of any
10 Q. And so you evacuated for Hurricane 10 kind anywhere in our yard.
11 Katrina? 11 Q. Let me --
12 A. Absolutely. 12 A. Totally silence. You didn't have
13 Q. Okay. And when was the first time 13 any vehicles on the road. It was eerie. And
14 you came back to St. Bernard after evacuating 14 at night, it got scary because there was no
15 to Monroe for Hurricane Katrina? 15 lights anywhere. It was total darkness. You
16 A. Probably the beginning of October. 16 didn't hear anything. You didn't see
17 Q. Of 2005? 17 anything. It was eerie.
18 A. 2005. 18 Q. You told us earlier today that in
19 Q. Okay. When you came back, what did 19 1947 they had a little bit of water crossing
20 you find? 20 under St. Bernard Highway and a little bit of
21 A. I -- It's almost indescribable what 21 water underneath your house, but not in the
22 I found. I mean, it was terrible. It was 22 house.
23 absolutely horrendous that this had happened 23 A. Right.
24 to us. That this was something that you only 24 Q. And you also told us that in Betsy
25 dream about happening to other people and 25 -- And that was related to the '47 event.
44 (Pages 170 to 173)

Page 174 Page 176
1 You also told us that in relation to Betsy, 1 family. Did you have any children?
2 you didn't have any water by your house. 2 A. I have two children.
3 A. Right. 3 Q. Were they living with you at the
4 Q. What water did you have with Katrina 4 time of Hurricane Katrina?
5 at your house, or what flooding did you have 5 A. No. One lived next door and one
6 with Katrina, if any? 6 lived in Chalmette.
7 A. Well, first off, my house is -- my 7 Q. Which one lived next door?
8 backyard is the Mississippi River, which is 8 A. My son lived next door.
9 supposed to be the highest area anywhere 9 Q. What is his name?
10 around. I had eight and a half feet of water 10 A. Phillip Livaudais.
11 in my yard. I had four and a half feet of 11 Q. And he lived next door with his wife
12 water in my house. My house is four foot off 12 Cheryl and their kids?
13 the ground for rainfall floods, which happens 13 A. Right.
14 every once in a while. But never expecting 14 Q. And then where did your other child
15 anything like this. I for years sat on my 15 live in Chalmette?
16 back porch and told people that "If I ever 16 A. She lived on Carmack right across
17 flood here, God help St. Bernard." And that's 17 from Kaiser Aluminum.
18 exactly what happened. 18 Q. Did she get water in her house --
19 Q. So you had about approximately eight 19 A. She got water --
20 feet of water across your property? 20 Q. -- as a result of Hurricane Katrina?
21 A. Eight and a half feet of water 21 A. She got water over her roof.
22 across the property. 22 Q. How high is her roof?
23 Q. How long did the water sit? 23 A. 12 feet, 13 feet.
24 A. That's where I was kind of lucky, 24 Q. And Kaiser Aluminum would be -- that
25 because it didn't sit that long. It only sat 25 would make her house west of the St. Bernard
Page 175 Page 177
1 a couple -- maybe a day and a half to two 1 Parish Courthouse. Is that correct?
2 days. 2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And let me go back a little bit, 3 Q. And she had about 20 feet of water?
4 digress. The St. Bernard Coastal Zone 4 A. I don't think it was 20 feet. I'm
5 Advisory Board, did it ever as an entity 5 sure it was maybe 14 feet of water. Because
6 notify the Corps in writing of its concern 6 there was -- You couldn't see the roof.
7 that the storm surge would come up the 7 Q. What about at Phillip's house, your
8 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet and flood St. 8 son Phillip?
9 Bernard? 9 A. Phillip's house had the same amount
10 A. I don't think that would have been 10 of water I had because he's also four feet off
11 something that the St. Bernard Coastal Zone 11 the ground. So four and a half feet of water
12 Advisory Board's position would have been as 12 in his house. And the problem Phillip had, he
13 far as the ability legally to do something 13 only had a one-story house and I had a
14 like that, but I am sure that the members let 14 two-story.
15 the Corps know that, yes. 15 Q. Were you able to save anything that
16 Q. Okay. When you say "the members let 16 you have?
17 the Corps", is it fair to say that it wasn't a 17 A. Well, what was upstairs was not
18 formal notification, because that wasn't the 18 damaged. What was downstairs, some of the
19 job of the Coastal Zone Advisory Board, but 19 clothing was able to be saved. Some of it
20 that members may have had conversations -- 20 just fell apart. Some of the -- All of my
21 A. And I am sure that the Parish 21 records were gone. They were just destroyed
22 officials passed resolutions. Whether they 22 because of the -- because of being wet, number
23 stated that the whole Parish would flood or 23 one, but taking as long as it did to get
24 not because of it, I don't know. 24 back. And the only reason it took that long
25 Q. Okay. And tell me about your 25 to get back is because we weren't legally
45 (Pages 174 to 177)

Page 178 Page 180
1 allowed to get back. 1 property owned by the Borgnemouth Corporation?
2 Q. Did you have meetings with, or as 2 A. We lost about 400 or 500 acres on
3 part of the Coastal -- Did the Coastal Zone 3 Proctor's Point that is gone. So now the
4 Advisory Board meet subsequent to Hurricane 4 State owns it. We -- We were lucky in the
5 Katrina? 5 rest of it, because it -- it really didn't
6 A. Subsequent, you mean -- 6 damage the interior of it that much. In fact,
7 Q. After, yes. 7 some of, it you wouldn't even know there was a
8 A. -- after? Yes. But it wasn't until 8 hurricane there. But other parts, it's just
9 quite some time after that we started meeting 9 totally devastated. It took trees that were
10 again. The -- You remember, there's nobody 10 growing, yaupon trees, which is sort of like a
11 left. I mean, they are all gone. Just like 11 holly, and they're very pretty with the red
12 the St. Bernard Wetlands Foundation. Where 12 berries in the wintertime. It took them and
13 are they? I don't have a clue where the 13 just moved the whole colony of yaupons maybe
14 membership went. 14 2,000 feet and they're all dead. They
15 Q. There was an article in the paper 15 couldn't survive the saltwater.
16 the other day where they estimated 16 MR. ANDRY:
17 approximately 76 percent of St. Bernard 17 I don't have any other
18 Parish's population is gone. 18 questions. They can ask questions.
19 A. Right. 19 VIDEO OPERATOR:
20 Q. Is that based about what you would 20 I'm going to change tapes real
21 experience? 21 quick.
22 A. I would definitely say that. Where 22 MR. WOODCOCK:
23 are they? The northshore, they got most of 23 Sure.
24 them, I guess. They anywhere from here to 24 VIDEO OPERATOR:
25 Alaska. 25 We're going off the record at
Page 179 Page 181
1 Q. Subsequent, after Hurricane Katrina, 1 2:17. This is the end of tape 3.
2 did the Coastal Zone Advisory Board ever meet 2 (Whereupon a discussion was held
3 with a Corps official and say, "We told you 3 off the record.)
4 so"? 4 VIDEO OPERATOR:
5 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 We're back on the record at
6 Q. Did you ever meet with -- Have you 6 2:18. This is the beginning of tape
7 met with any Corps -- Has the Coastal Zone 7 4.
8 Advisory Board met with a Corps official 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. WOODCOCK:
9 subsequent to the hurricane? 9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Livaudais. My
10 A. Not that I know of. 10 name is Jack Woodcock. I represent the United
11 Q. Have you spoken with any Corps 11 States in this matter. I just have a few
12 employees? 12 quick questions for you.
13 A. I try not to. 13 A. Hurry up.
14 Q. How has Hurricane Katrina changed 14 Q. You attended college from 1961 to
15 your life? 15 1965?
16 A. It changed my life because I used to 16 A. That's correct.
17 have a nice, simple life where I was kind of 17 Q. And you went to Southern Louisiana
18 retired and do what I want to do. And now all 18 University?
19 I do is work getting the house back. And I 19 A. University of Southern -- University
20 don't go fishing any more because it's changed 20 of Southwestern Louisiana.
21 that, too. It's filled canals in that I can't 21 Q. Okay. Now, what did you study
22 go down any more because -- the Corps says you 22 there? What's your degree in?
23 can't dredge it because it's wetlands now. 23 A. My degree is in -- I have a major in
24 But they were open before. 24 history and a minor in English and political
25 Q. How did Hurricane Katrina affect the 25 science.
46 (Pages 178 to 181)

Page 182 Page 184
1 Q. Now, during the course of this 1 Q. Could you tell me about that?
2 testimony today you have made a number of 2 A. Yes. The -- The nutria was part of
3 statements about the status of the marshes 3 the landscape, so to speak, after the '50s,
4 throughout your lifetime. 4 '60s. It became more prevalent and where it
5 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 5 became a nuisance. And by trapping and such
6 Q. You're not a trained biologist, are 6 activities, we -- the numbers were kept down.
7 you? 7 Q. Are you aware of any effect it had
8 A. I was not. I would say that over 8 on the marshes?
9 the past 40 years listening to the different 9 A. It really didn't have any effect on
10 people I have been associated with, I have 10 the marshes much in that area as it has in
11 gotten a lot of knowledge. 11 other areas of Louisiana because of the
12 Q. And so the statements you made are 12 concerted efforts to keep them under control
13 based on your lifetime of experience -- 13 there.
14 A. That's correct. 14 MR. ANDRY:
15 Q. -- in and around the area? 15 Aren't all rodents unnatural? An
16 If I could direct your attention 16 unnatural rodent?
17 to what's been marked for identification 17 THE WITNESS:
18 purposes Exhibit 2, -- 18 It's an invasive species.
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. WOODCOCK:
20 Q. -- during the course of -- before the 20 Q. If I could direct your attention to
21 MRGO, the 1950s, did you observe any logging 21 what's been marked for identification as
22 that was done of cypress trees within this 22 Exhibit Number 7, the last page of that
23 area of which you've previously testified? 23 exhibit. On this page, it states that the
24 A. That I observed? 24 policy committee wanted to deauthorize the
25 Q. Yes. 25 MRGO, save or except for shallow draft ships.
Page 183 Page 185
1 A. No. 1 Is that correct?
2 Q. That you have personally observed. 2 A. No. Not shallow draft ships.
3 A. No. 3 Shallow draft vessels.
4 Q. No? 4 Q. Shallow draft vessels.
5 A. No. 5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. What about after, the decade after 6 Q. Which would have a draft of about 12
7 the MRGO? 7 feet or fewer?
8 A. No. No. 8 A. Right.
9 Q. So you're not aware -- 9 Q. Okay.
10 A. There has not been any logging there 10 A. Tugboats.
11 for many, many, many years. 11 Q. What factors did you consider in
12 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any logging 12 keeping it open for shallow draft vessels?
13 that ever occurred in this area? 13 A. The biggest reason at that point to
14 A. Yes. 14 keep it open was for the commercial and
15 Q. When was that? 15 recreational fishing industries more than
16 A. Probably in the 1880s, 1890s. 16 anything else at that particular time.
17 Q. Are you aware of a rodent which may 17 Q. And what time was that?
18 have infested this area at all? 18 A. Whenever that was drawn in 1998 or
19 A. A rodent? 19 whatever. 2000.
20 Q. Yes. 20 Q. In your previous testimony, you
21 A. Specifically? 21 stated that you expressed concerns to Mr. Gunn
22 Q. An unnatural rodent. 22 and Mr. Russo --
23 A. The nutria? 23 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively).
24 Q. Yes. 24 Q. -- who are members of the Corps, and
25 A. Yes. 25 I believe it was your testimony that they
47 (Pages 182 to 185)

Page 186 Page 188
1 would -- in response to your concerns they 1 A. The only thing they would do was say
2 would say "Congress authorized it to keep it 2 they can only do what Congress tells them to
3 open and that's what we have to do until 3 do. And that's not exactly true, because if
4 Congress deauthorizes that". Is that correct? 4 you look at what they have done recently,
5 A. That's exactly right. 5 Congress told them they wanted some -- they
6 Q. And you testified that you 6 want a report by such and such a date. They
7 characterized that response as a cop-out. 7 didn't get it. So they didn't do what
8 A. That's correct. 8 Congress told them to do, did they?
9 Q. Why is that a cop-out? 9 Q. In conversations with Mr. Russo, he
10 A. Because there are things that the 10 stated to you that there were studies which
11 Corps could have done that they didn't do. 11 had shown a nominal or four-inch increase --
12 Q. Like what? 12 A. Six inch.
13 A. For instance, they could have put 13 Q. -- six inch increase of storm surge
14 some kind of a weir on there. They could have 14 due to the MRGO. Have you seen those studies?
15 done better on the marsh -- on the north shore 15 A. No.
16 for bank stabilization. They did no bank 16 MR. WOODCOCK:
17 stabilization until they were forced to. 17 I don't have anything further.
18 Q. Is there anything else that you 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDRY:
19 would have liked them to do? 19 Q. Let me just ask three questions
20 A. Oh, there's a lot of things I would 20 about logging.
21 have liked them to do, but impractical. 21 Did the logging have any impact on
22 Q. Okay. Why are they impractical? 22 -- detrimental impact that you observed in
23 A. We just can't get done. I mean, you 23 the 1940s with regard to the property owned by
24 just -- some things cannot be done. You know, 24 the Borgnemouth Corporation?
25 I would like to see it back the way it was in 25 A. You still had vegetation -- You
Page 187 Page 189
1 1950. I know it'll never happen, but I would 1 still had the -- What do we call it. The
2 like to see that. 2 trees were able to reproduce because of the
3 Q. What are your thoughts on why what 3 cones, because you didn't have any tremendous
4 you would have liked to be done could not 4 amount of saltwater. You had a freshwater
5 realistically get done? 5 marsh or a freshwater swamp. So when the
6 A. Well, for instance, for one reason 6 cones would fall, you had regeneration of your
7 is because you have all of these rules and 7 cypress trees. So you always had a supply of
8 regulations now that you can't do this, you 8 them until a point came where it was too high
9 can't do that, you can't do the other thing in 9 of a salinity for them to reproduce.
10 wetlands. And even when they were dredging 10 Q. So it was the salinity that killed
11 the Ship Channel and putting the spoil on the 11 the trees, not the loggers?
12 north bank, they had to go by the rules and 12 A. That's correct.
13 regulations set forth where you can only go up 13 Q. And the unnatural rodent, do you --
14 a certain elevation. Now, I don't know why 14 are you aware of the -- I mean, nutria don't
15 that was the rule, but that's a rule. It's 15 eat cypress trees, do they?
16 kind of silly. It's just like you can build a 16 A. They can if they get hungry enough.
17 levee, but you can only build it so many feet 17 The biggest vermin -- The biggest problem we
18 high. You know, what good does it do to build 18 have with cypress trees is deer. And it's not
19 a three foot levee or four foot levee when you 19 from eating them.
20 need one 14 to 15 feet? 20 Q. Did they have deer on the property
21 Q. And so the universe of possibilities 21 in the '50s that was owned by the Borgnemouth
22 are hemmed in by regulations? 22 Corporation?
23 A. By constraints, that's correct. 23 A. You had a tremendous population of
24 Q. And Mr. Russo and Mr. Gunn expressed 24 deer.
25 those restraints to you? 25 Q. Did they have deer on the property
48 (Pages 186 to 189)

Page 190 Page 192
1 from Paris Road -- bounded by Paris Road, Lake 1
2 Borgne, the Mississippi River, and Shell 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3 Beach? 3
4 A. Absolutely. 4 I, ROGER D. JOHNS, RMR, RDR, CRR,
5 MR. ANDRY: 5 Certified Court Reporter, do hereby certify
6 I don't have any other 6 that the above-named witness, after having
7 questions. 7 been first duly sworn by me to testify to the
8 VIDEO OPERATOR: 8 truth, did testify as hereinabove set forth;
9 That's it. This concludes this 9 that the testimony was reported by me in
10 videotaped deposition. We're going 10 shorthand and transcribed under my personal
11 off the record at 2:29. 11 direction and supervision, and is a true and
12 * * * 12 correct transcript, to the best of my ability
13 13 and understanding; that I am not of counsel,
14 14 not related to counsel or the parties hereto,
15 15 and not in any way interested in the outcome
16 16 of this matter.
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20 ROGER D. JOHNS
21 21 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER
22 22 STATE OF LOUISIANA
23 23
24 24
25 25
Page 191
1
2 WITNESS'S CERTIFICATE
3
4 I, GATIEN J. LIVAUDAIS, JR., read or
5 have had the preceding testimony read to me,
6 and hereby certify that it is a true and
7 correct transcription of my testimony, with
8 the exception of any attached corrections or
9 changes.
10
11
_____________________
12 (Witness' Signature)
13 ____________
DATE SIGNED
14
15 DEPONENT PLEASE INITIAL ONE:
16
_____ Read with no corrections
17
18 _____ Read and correction sheet attached
19
20
DATE TAKEN: APRIL 7, 2008
21
22
23
24
25
49 (Pages 190 to 192)

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GATIEN LIVAUDAIS, JR.

IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

PERTAINS TO: ROBINSON JUDGE DUVAL

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

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