Plant Turndown Operation

Dears, At this topic I would like to discuss about plant turndown operation case such that everybody share their experiences.

Turndown operation as one of the design cases of every plant can potentially involve many challenges. This mode of operatio

For turndown case as you know all the times designers are faced with challenges to prevent/minimize the plant suffering from Some queries in this regards are as follows:

1. How to decide and plan about a reasonable value as turndown value of a plant? How much turndown have you experience 2. In reality how much turndown you could achieve at your plants?

3. Based on your experience with different equipment and packaged units such as instrumentation (control valve, flow meter 4. Which control & shutdown options do you propose for smooth operation of the plant in case of turndown? 5. Which design options do you propose to cope with turndown operation difficulties? Some options in this regard: 5.1. Compressor Equipment: Recycle operation via anti surge/capacity control system, consideration of low suction pressure 5.2. Pump Equipment: Recycle operation via minimum flow line 5. 3. Column Equipment: Some vendors offer special internals that can help in case of turndown 5.4. Implementing training concept for example considering 2x50% trains for packaged equipment. 5.5. Consideration of surge tanks can be regarded as short term solution Let me know your idea and expeiences. All The Best, Mojtaba 19 days ago Like Comment Follow Flag More

2 comments

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S M Kumar Mojtaba: I am afraid to touch this on account of follow-on queries that may come. I have never seen turn-down

1. Equipment are in series. While one may allow 20% turndown, one next to it may demand minimum 60%. Hence it is difficu 2. See first para and item 1

3. Control valve: 20-30% You can go for reduced Cv seats if so required. Flow meter: Depends on type. At best you may lose a

Fired Heater: Gas burner may allow 20%. Liquid burner 40~50%. Here again, you can cut out a few burners in a multi-burne 4. Depends. Shutdown of a spare train. Will help rotating machineries. 5. See 3. Final: Not a big deal as long as you consider each piece of equipment in series and go by the governing one. 1 day ago Like

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Saeid Rahimi Mofrad, P.E. The lower turn down you specify, the higher cost you need to bear. In reality, in oil and gas produ

The lower turn down ratio demands for specific flow meters to satisfy the required accuracy for such a wide range of operatio You may need two control valves in parallel (one small and one large) to handle turndown case. Equipment are all explained by Kumar. Columns have normally 50% turndown but they can be operated at very low capacity

Reactors are the only equipment that I have not seen any flexibility in terms of turndown when I discussed with licensors or t In short, if you have proper justification for turn down, the plant can be designed for it but everything has its own cost.

I have designed a condensate stabilizer unit for 6% turn down because there were four condensate producing trains upstream

Keep in mind that most of the times, the operating headaches and cost of running at such a low turndown is so significant tha

dy share their experiences.

challenges. This mode of operation can cause interruption at normal operation, damage to equipment, process shutdown and increased p

/minimize the plant suffering from turndown, to keep plant productivity & availability and to prevent plant shutdown.

ch turndown have you experienced at your projects? I have seen values like 20%, 30% and 50%.

ntation (control valve, flow meter, etc) , pump, compressor, column, desalter, gas sweetening package, TEG gas dehydration and etc, how

case of turndown?

ideration of low suction pressure over-ride

me. I have never seen turn-down an issue to warrant such a detailed analysis. Generally we have 2 trains shutting down one and afford minimum 60%. Hence it is difficult to give a generic response.

ds on type. At best you may lose a bit on accuracy within calibration error should not matter if it is NOT custody transfer. Pump: Does no

ut a few burners in a multi-burner unit as long as heating symmetry is possible. Two phase flow regime viz annular, slug kind of things,

governing one.

ear. In reality, in oil and gas production plants, the plant can be designed for any turn down ratio. However, there are few points to consid

y for such a wide range of operation.

be operated at very low capacity if you over-reflux the column or circulate part of the product back to the inlet and run the reboiler abov

hen I discussed with licensors or technology providers.

everything has its own cost.

densate producing trains upstream, each one designed for 25% turndown. So when one train was working on turndown the condensate s

low turndown is so significant that operating companies do not ask for less than 15-20% turndown ratio. They are ready to shut down th

process shutdown and increased process downtime.

ant shutdown.

TEG gas dehydration and etc, how much turndown is achievable?

ns shutting down one and affordable turndown of individual pieces of equipment in the still running single train usually gets what one w

T custody transfer. Pump: Does not matter with minimum flow; large head and large MW pumps may heat up liquid recycle via min flow;

e viz annular, slug kind of things, inside coil 60%. Slurry or sand borne line: Min velocity required to avoid sedimentation and line pluggi

ver, there are few points to consider:

he inlet and run the reboiler above what is needed according to turndown case simulation. It is just waste of energy but can make the sys

ng on turndown the condensate stabilization unit was on 6% (25% divided by 4).

o. They are ready to shut down the plant instead of keeping it running with extra trouble and operting cost.

ngle train usually gets what one wants.

eat up liquid recycle via min flow; again shutdown a parallel pump. Compressor: Does not matter with recycle + speed control. Column: D

oid sedimentation and line plugging.

te of energy but can make the system work.

ecycle + speed control. Column: Depends on internal and how close the design case itself to weeping. Usually column and fired heater ma

sually column and fired heater may impact entire trains turndown. Desalter: A vessel as long as its PCV/FCV/LCV can open and close it is

V/FCV/LCV can open and close it is OK; You can go for reduced Cv seats if so required. Gas sweetening package: Its column may limit the s

ackage: Its column may limit the show. TEG gas dehydration: Its column may limit the show.

PSV inlet line sizing

Dears, For PSV inlet sizing normally 2 items shall be checked;

1) Pressure drop between equipment and the PSV < 3% of PSV set pressure, this item shall be checked in order to avoid chatt 2) V. Would you please let me know the reason of checking 2nd item (V2)? Thanks Mohammad reza 24-Jan-12 Like Comment Follow Flag More 14 comments Follow Sampath Sampath Kumar R Dear Mohammad,

Rho V2 criteria is to be followed for entire flare system. PSV inlet line is part of flare system, hence this has to be met apart fr

Kind Regards Sampath Kumar R January 26, 2012 Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate Follow Sue Chin

Sue Chin Lim I have no idea why momentum has to be checked for the PSV inlet line. I normally based on the pressure drop January 31, 2012 Like

2 Click to see who liked this comment. Follow Sampath Sampath Kumar R Dear Lim, PSV inlet line being part of Flare System, it has to undergo RhoV2 criteria apart from 3% pressure drop criteria.

Most of the cases, the RhoV2 critieria will be met for PSV inlet lines. Generally, size changes, if any, in PSV inlet line could be d

Kind Regards Sampath Kumar R January 31, 2012 Like Follow Learn Syan

Learn Syan Lee RhoV2 criteria for PSV inlet line sizing is mentioned in section 13.5.1 of Total's General Specification doc. no

"For the line sizing, the maximum capacity of the PSV (recalculated with the selected orifice) shall be considered even if this f - P between the protected equipment and the PSV < 3% of PSV set pressure (API RP 520 PT II) - Diameter of line PSV inlet - V2 25,000 Pa for of line 2" - V2 30,000 Pa for P 50 bar g - V2 50,000 Pa for P > 50 bar g."

Generally, RhoV2 criteria serves as a measure for typical line sizing to ensure that there is no excessively high velocities in the January 31, 2012 Like 1 Follow Jimmy Jimmy Lee So far, i understand only Technip and Total is using V2 and 3% as PSV Inlet Line criteria. January 31, 2012 Like Follow Mohammadreza

Mohammadreza Ebrahimi Based on most standards and practices Checking of 3% set pressure in PSV inlet line is mandatory What will happen if we dont care about RohV2 limitation?

January 31, 2012 Like Follow Mojtaba Mojtaba Habibi Based on section 7.3.1.2 of API 521 standard:

"In addition to flow considerations, the vessel nozzle and other inlet piping should be designed to withstand thermal loadings

The strength of the inlet piping is less than that of the valve because the inlet piping has a smaller section modulus. Any mom

So I think not only valve chatter but also mechanical strength of PSV inlet line are design concerns which have standard base. January 31, 2012 Like 1 Follow Sampath

Sampath Kumar R Yes, I agree with Mr. Mojtaba. However, these activities (i.e.) thermal loadings / reaction forces resulting

Kind Regards Sampath Kumar R February 1, 2012 Like Follow Dhiraj Dhiraj Joshi Hi ,

I understand that this discussion has happened quite sometime ago. However, in addition to the rhov2 criteria, there is also r Appreciate the forums' thought on the rhov3 criteria. Regards Dhiraj 5 months ago Like Follow Hooman

Hooman Tabaraei I think V criterion, in addition to 3% pressure drop criterion, serves as a measure to maintain the pressu 5 months ago Like Follow Amar

Amar Naik How is the 3% pressure drop criteria applied to the PSV inlet line, especially when the PSV is installed on a piping 12 days ago Like Follow Jeremy

Jeremy Goldbloom If I remember correctly, if you are using a pilot operated PSV, the sensor can be upstream to avoid chatt 12 days ago Like Follow ASHOK ASHOK KUMAR Dear all I have a query. The velocity in rho v2 is calculated based on inlet line size or the psv inlet nozzle size. Mostly the psv inlet nozzle size will be smaller than the psv inlet line. Thanks Regards Ashok 11 days ago Like Follow Paul

Paul Frey I have to agree with not calculating the pv2 value for the RVinlet line, the reason will become apparent when you

be checked in order to avoid chattering phenomena.

hence this has to be met apart from <3% Pressure drop criteria.Generally, RhoV2 will be for the purpose of piping stability and as you ma

mally based on the pressure drop criteria only. Please be noted that this 3% of set pressure criteria is only important for reclosing relief d

ssure drop criteria.

, if any, in PSV inlet line could be due to 3% pressure drop criteria.

al's General Specification doc. no. GS EP ECP 103. Refer to extract below for quick reference:

) shall be considered even if this figure exceeds the actual maximum flow rate due to process limitations. The design of these lines shall co

o excessively high velocities in the piping, which can lead to excessive pressure drop or vibrations.

sure in PSV inlet line is mandatory. I saw only in some gas plants and upstream project (regarding to process design criteria) checking of R

ned to withstand thermal loadings, reaction forces resulting from valve operation, vibration, dead weight and externally applied loadings.

maller section modulus. Any moments created by loads applied to the outlet flange and by the reactive force of the discharging fluid trans

ncerns which have standard base.

oadings / reaction forces resulting from PSV opening shall be carried out by Piping stress team. As a Process engineer, we need to carry ou

o the rhov2 criteria, there is also rhov3 criteria that i have observed in some of the client line sizing philosophies. As I understand, the phy

a measure to maintain the pressure drop across the nozzle of protected equipment below the allowable figure to ensure that there is no

en the PSV is installed on a piping portion and not on an equipment? The case I want to know of is the case where PSV is installed on the

or can be upstream to avoid chattering and the 3 % limit on pressure is then not so important.

n will become apparent when you consider that pv2 calculated by Process Engineers is a 'screening tool' for piping to analyse the downstre

e of piping stability and as you may aware the value could be less than 200000 Pa for flare system piping.

nly important for reclosing relief devices to avoid chattering. For non reclosing relief devices like rupture disc, you don't have to size the lin

s. The design of these lines shall comply with the following:

cess design criteria) checking of RohV2 is necessary.

t and externally applied loadings.

force of the discharging fluid transmit bending stresses and rotational forces to the inlet piping."

ess engineer, we need to carry out 3% pressure drop criteria. Also, RhoV2 to be checked as PSV inlet line being part of flare system. It cou

sophies. As I understand, the physical significance of rhov2 criteria is the limiting criteria for pressure (drop). However I am unable to und

e figure to ensure that there is no chattering in PSV.

ase where PSV is installed on the discharge of a reciprocating compressor. Should the PSV inlet line for which the 3% criteria needs to be

for piping to analyse the downstream piping for Flow Induced Vibration, which is a low frequency oscillation of relief piping which can cau

disc, you don't have to size the line to meet this criteria.

e being part of flare system. It could be client's requirement too. I have checked both in my past projects.

rop). However I am unable to understand the same for rhov3 criteria.

which the 3% criteria needs to be applied be considered for the non-flowing portion of the inlet pipe (after the TEE point) or for the entire

tion of relief piping which can cause localised stresses at branch connections with the flare header. In severe cases, the relief valve tailpip

ter the TEE point) or for the entire piping upto the pressure source (in this case Compressor) needs to be considered? Please advise.

evere cases, the relief valve tailpipe can rupture. To answer Ashoks question, pv2 is calculated at each change of diameter, starting with th

e considered? Please advise.

hange of diameter, starting with the Relief valve outlet flange.