JACKSON V AEGLive June 26

th
2013
Trial video Exhibits http://youtu.be/"at2.us=<F.
Michael Joseph Jackson Jr (rince! lainti""
$ire%t exami&atio& by 'r. Pa&ish.
(. 'i)ht #a&t to move that mi%ropho&e *ust a little bit %loser so #e %a& hear you. +a& you hear
me ,K-
.. /es.
(. +a& you state your 0ull &ame 0or us-
.. 'i%hael 1oseph 1a%2so&3 1r
(. .&d are you &amed a0ter your 0ather-
.. ,ri)i&ally 4 #as &amed a0ter my 0amily &ame3 Pri&%e3 but #he& my brother #as bor&3 #e
&amed him Pri&%e3 a&d 4 #as &amed a0ter my 0ather.

(. 5hat do you mea&3 your 0amily &ame-
.. Pri&%e is a 0amily &ame that ru&s o& my 0amily6s side a&d... 'y )ra&dma6s side.
(. .re you able to hear us ,K-
.. +loser-
(. 7o let me...
Ju#$e% #e %a& )et the boo2.
Mr. anish: oh3 yeah. /ou )et the boo2.
(. Ho#6s that-
.. 4t6s all ri)ht.
(. 4s it all ri)ht-
.. Testi&).
(. There #e )o. Ever testi0ied i& %ourt be0ore-
.. 8o.
(. .re you &ervous-
.. . little bit.
(. $o&6t be &ervous. /ou6re amo&) 0rie&ds here. Ho# old are you-
.. 7ixtee&.
(. 5hat is your date o0 birth-
.. 9ebruary 13th3 1::;.
(. /ou 2&o# #hat it mea&s to )ive your best testimo&y a&d testi0y truth0ully-
.. /es.
(. 5here #ere you bor&-

.. 4& +edar 7i&ai hospital.
(. .&d do you have a&y brothers a&d sisters-
.. 4 have o&e brother a&d o&e sister.
(. 5hat is your sister6s &ame-
.. Paris<'i%hael Katheri&e 1a%2so&.
(. 5he& #as she bor&-
.. .pril 3rd3 1::=.
(. Ho# old is she-
.. 7he6s 1>.
(. /ou said you had a brother. 5hat6s his &ame-
.. Pri&%e 'i%hael 1oseph 1a%2so&3 also 2&o#& as ?la&2et. He #as bor& 9ebruary 21st3 2002.
(. Ho# old is he-
.. He6s 11.
(. 4 #a&t to as2 you a 0e# @uestio&s about your brothers a&d sisters. $o you %urre&tly atte&d
s%hool-
.. 4 do.
(. 5hat s%hool do you atte&d-
.. ?u%2ley s%hool.
(. 5here is that lo%ated-
.. 7herma& ,a2s.
(. .&d ho# lo&) have you )o&e to that s%hool-
.. 1ust 0i&ished up my third year there.
(. 5hat )rade are you i&-

.. 4 *ust 0i&ished up sophomore year.
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you exhibit :>1. 5he& 4 say that3 that mea&s #e6re )oi&) to put up exhibits.
/ou6ll see it o& the s%ree&3 a&d 46ll sho# it to %ou&sel.
Mr. anish: is that ,K3 %ou&sel-
Mr& utna'% yes.
Mr. anish: ,K. Tha&2 you.
(. $o you re%o)&iAe exhibit :>1- 5e6re )oi&) to )et it up here i& a se%o&d. ,K. 5ho6s i& that
pi%ture-
.. That6s me3 my sister a&d )ra&dma.
(. 5he& #as that ta2e&-
.. 9irst day o0 s%hool at ?u%2ley at my house.

(. .re you prese&tly )oi&) to s%hool this summer-
.. 4 am.
(. 5hat are you ta2i&) this summer-
.. B. 7. History.
(. .&d that6s so... That6s a re)ular %lass3 but you6re ta2i&) it i& the summer-
.. . very %ompa%ted %ourse3 yes.
(. .&d is this 0irst day o0 s%hool3 is that a0ter your 0ather passed a#ay-
.. /es3 it #as.
(. 8o#3 have you re%eived a&y ho&ors at s%hool-
.. 46m %urre&tly a member o0 The 8atio&al Ho&or 7o%iety3 a&d 46ve re%eived a& a#ard 0or...
.rtisti% a#ards.
(. ,K. 5he& you say CThe 8atio&al Ho&or 7o%iety3C #hat is that-
.. 4t6s a... !i2e a )roup that a%%epts %ertai& stude&ts that have a %ertai& D. P. .. a&d have %ertai&
@ualities i& them that a tea%her vie#s i& %lass or o00 %ampus that stude&ts %a& also )o 0or.
(. /ou play a&y sports-
.. 4 used to play 0ootball a&d bas2etball.
(. Ho# about a%tivities other tha& s%hool or the &atio&al merit so%iety or sports- 5hat else have
you do&e at s%hool-
.. .t s%hool-
(. ,r outside s%hool.
.. ,utside o0 s%hool3 4 parta2e i& martial arts. 4& s%hool3 4 #or2 #ith metal3 #hi%h is a 0orm o0
art3 #hi%h 4 use it to ma2e *e#elry. 46m also part o0 the roboti%s team at my s%hool6s a0ter<s%hool
pro)ram #here #e build robots a&d %ompete them i& &atio&al %ompetitio&s.
(. Tell us about that. Ho# do you build robots-
.. 4t6s divided by %ertai& teams. 46m a me%ha&i%. 4 #or2 #ith my ha&ds a&d build the robot.
5e have desi)&ers #ho desi)& the robots. Ea%h year the %ompetitio& is di00ere&t. 5e have

pro)rammers #ho pro)ram the robot3 a&d #e %ompete i& a &atio&al %ompetitio&. 4 )o to Ee)as
every year.
(. Ho# has your team do&e-
.. !ast year #e %ame i& se%o&d out o0 F3 s%hools. !ast year #e did&6t do so #ell. 5e had
%ha&)e o0 0a%ulty3 so #e ad*usted to that.
(. 7o you blame it o& the %oa%h-
.. /eah.
(. That happe&s. Ho# is your )rade poi&t avera)e i& s%hool-
.. 4 have a 3.F= D. P. ..
(. Ho# did you do last semester-
.. 4 mai&tai&ed the same avera)e #ith a 3.F= D. P. ..
(. 4s lear&i&) importa&t to you-
.. 4t is3 be%ause it6s somethi&) my dad tau)ht me to do3 is everythi&) is a lear&i&) experie&%e.
(. $o you #a&t to )o to %olle)e-
.. 4 do. 4 #a&t to )o to B.7.+. 0or 0ilm a&d busi&ess3 or 4 mi)ht ta2e me%ha&i%al s%ie&%e a&d
busi&ess.
(. 8o#3 you me&tio&ed this about 0ilmma2i&). Ho# did you be%ome i&terested i& it-
.. 5he& 4 #as little3 #e used to ma2e little movies #ith my dad. 'y dad used to tea%h me ho#
to 0i&d shots a&d ho# to study the 0ilms3 the )reat o&es3 as he %alled them3 a&d 0i)ured... .&d 4
al#ays #a&ted to %reate stories a&d movies.
(. 5he& you say C0i&d shots3C #hat do you mea& by that-
.. 'y dad3 #he& 4 #as little3 )ave me a &e%2la%e that had a %amera 0i&der o& it. 4 do&6t 2&o#
#hat it6s %alled3 but it #as a %amera le&s that you %ould use to 0i&d %ertai& shots to sho# ho# the
li)ht %omes i&.
(. 5hat is it that6s importa&t i& 0i&di&) a shot-
.. /ou have to have bala&%e3 ho# a perso& loo2s i& the shot3 ho# the ba%2)rou&d loo2s3 the
li)ht %o&trasts3 a&d #hat the #at%her 0eels or vie#s.

(. .&d is that somethi&) you a&d your dad shared to)ether-
.. /es.
(. ,utside o0 s%hool or i& s%hool3 are you i&volved i& a&y %ommu&ity servi%e or %ommu&ity
a%tivities-
.. /es. 'y s%hool re@uires us to do %ommu&ity servi%e3 #hi%h is ma&datory3 20 hours. 4 do
more tha& that3 be%ause 4 e&*oy doi&) some %ommu&ity servi%e at the %hildre&6s hospital i& !os
.&)eles #ith a &o&<pro0it or)a&iAatio&3 #hi%h 46m pretty sure is %alled literally heali&). .&d it6s
a pro)ram 0or si%2 2ids at the hospital #ho &eed boo2s to lear& a&d/or *ust to 2eep their mi&d o00
o0 problems that are )oi&) o& at the hospital. 4 #e&t to the %a&%er #ard3 a&d 4 brou)ht boo2s a&d
read to the 2ids that #ere i& those #ards.
(. 5he& your 0ather #as alive3 did he tea%h you or spea2 to you about the importa&%e o0 bei&)
i&volved i& the %ommu&ity-
.. .ll the time. He al#ays said3 Cyou should give back to the community and help out as much
as you can. " a&d 4 )ot most o0 my desire to help the %ommu&ity 0rom my 0ather.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s tal2 about a0ter you #ere bor&3 the 0irst part o0 your li0e. 5here #ere you
livi&)-
.. 4 lived i& 8everla&d a&d i& 9ra&%e.
(. 5hat is 8everla&d-
.. 8everla&d is the house my dad o#&ed. 4t #as out by 7a&ta ?arbara. 4t #as a lar)e property.
.&d i& 9ra&%e #e stayed mostly out by $is&eyla&d.
(. $is&eyla&d outside o0 Paris-
.. /eah.
(. Ho# is $is&eyla&d i& 9ra&%e %ompared to here-
.. 4t6s a little bit... 4 %a&6t remember most o0 it. 4 have&6t bee& i& a #hile. 4 remember )o<%arts
they had out there.
(. /ou li2e %ars-
.. 4 do.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s tal2 about ho# ma&y... Ho# lo&) do you remember that you lived i& 7a&ta
?arbara3 the 8everla&d area-

.. 4 lived there u&til 4 #as six years old. .&d the& #e moved be%ause o0... 9rom #hat 4 2&o#
a&d #hat 4 #as told3 there #as some %ompli%ated... .0ter #e 0i&ished the %ourt %ase3 4 believe
there #as %ompli%atio&s #ith poli%e that #e&t o& i& the house3 a&d 4 )uess they rui&ed it 0or my
dad.
(. .ll ri)ht. 46m )oi&) to sho# you exhibit :>23 #ho is that-
.. That6s my dad a&d me.
(. 5hat are you doi&) there-
.. He #as playi&) the pia&o3 a&d 4 #as tryi&) to play #ith him.
(. $o you li2e musi%-
.. 4 do.
(. $o you #a&t to )et i&to musi%-

.. 4 %a& &ever play a& i&strume&t3 a&d 4 de0i&itely %a&&ot si&). That6s somethi&) that my dad
#as the best at.
(. He did&6t )ive that to you-
.. 8o.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :>3. 5ho is i& that pi%ture-
.. That6s me3 a&d 4 thi&2 my sister.
(. $o you remember that day-
.. 8o.
(. ,K. .ll ri)ht. !et me sho# you :>G. 5ho is i& that pi%ture-

.. That6s me3 my sister a&d my brother.
(. .&d #hat do you have i& your ha&ds-
.. . #ater )u&.
(. . sports )u&3 sometimes %alled-
.. /es.
(. $id you li2e those-
.. 4 did.
(. $id you ever use those #ith your dad-
.. . little bit. He #as&6t a 0a& o0 viole&%e3 so he did&6t promote )u&s.
(. !et me sho# you exhibit :>>. 5ho is that-
.. That6s me.

(. /ou al#ays seem to be dressed up. 4s that... .re you a dress<up 2i&d o0 )uy3 or #hy is that-
.. 7ome days my dad #ould ta2e us out a&d ta2e pi%tures. He #ould say3 "when you grow up
and you have kids, you can show them and say this is what you looked like when you were little.
"
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :>F. 5ho is that-
.. That6s my sister.

(. That6s Paris-
.. /es.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :>;. 5ho is that-
.. That6s me a&d my sister. .&d i0 4 remember %orre%tly3 it6s ri)ht outside the trai& statio& that6s
&amed a0ter my )ra&dmother.

(. .&d #here is that-
.. .t 8everla&d.
(. !et6s loo2 at :>=. 5ho is that-
.. That6s my sister.

(. Ho# about :F0-

.. That6s me3 my dad a&d my sister.
(. $id your dad li2e to ta2e pi%tures #ith the %hildre&-
.. He did. He had a lot o0 pi%tures he 2ept o0 us 0or a lo&) time.
(. /ou said you lived at 8everla&d u&til you #ere about six. 1ust tell us #hat you remember
about the pla%e.
.. 5he& my dad bou)ht the house3 a&d he built it3 he built it 0or 2ids that he #a&ted to have.
He built it 0or us. He al#ays #a&ted to ma2e sure it #as happy. There #as a 0irepla%e lit
every#here3 %lassi%al musi% playi&). 4t #as a very homey pla%e. /ou %ould )o there3 a&d you
0elt at home. Everybody #as 0amily3 0rom the %he0 to the house2eepers to the &a&&y. Everybody
#as li2e our 0amily to us. 5e had a& amuseme&t par2 there3 a Aoo.
(. ,K. 4 #a&t to sho# you exhibit. 4t6s a short video3 a&d 46d as2 you to tell us about it. !et6s
ta2e a loo2 at it 0or a se%o&d. (a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#!
(. 5hat is that-
.. That6s the Aoo that #e had. ,ur pet )ira00e. Those are the alpa%as3 a&d that #as at the petti&)
Aoo. ?ut #e &ever really #e&t &ear them be%ause they #ould spit o& us.
(. .ll ri)ht.
.. That #as the amuseme&t par23 dad6s 0avorite ride3 )oi&) up a&d do#&. .&d this is the 0erris
#heel.
(. This #as all at #here you lived-
.. /es. That6s 8everla&d. That6s poetry. 'y dad has #ritte& them. He has them all over the
house that he bou)ht 0or my )ra&dmother. Have&hurst has poems li2e this o&e.
(. 5ere you allo#ed to ride o& all those rides-
.. 8ot all the time. 5e o&ly #e&t there3 to there a&d the Aoo3 a 0e# times be%ause my dad
#a&ted us to remai& humble.
(. !et me sho# you :GG3 be%ause it #as your birthday3 4 believe. $id your dad li2e to ma2e
videos-
.. 'y dad loved to. 5e have almost everythi&) that happe&ed to us.
(. ,K. !et6s loo2 at :GG. (a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#& !

(. did your dad ma2e this-
.. /es. (a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#!
(. is that Paris-
.. /es. (a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#&!
(. did your dad do that a lot3 ta2e these 2i&ds o0 movies a&d )ive them to you-
.. /es3 he did.
(. $id he li2e to preserve the a%tivities that #ere o%%urri&)-
.. /es.
(. 8o#3 4 #a&t to sho# you exhibit :G;3 a&d 4 2&o# you %a&6t si&)3 but 4 2&o# you #ere tryi&)
to here3 so let6s ta2e a loo2 at it. (a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#&!
(. is that your dad a&d you tryi&) to si&) #ith him-
.. /es3 it is.
(. 8o#3 did you help us 2i&d o0 pi%2 out some o0 the pi%tures to sho# here today-
.. /es3 4 did.
(. .&d the video o0 your dad si&)i&)3 that6s exhibit :G2. 8o#3 #ere you ever i& a&y o0 your
0ather6s so&)s-
.. 4 #as i& the Clost %hildre&C #hi%h is #hat he #as also si&)i&) ri)ht there.
(. Clost %hildre&3C #as that part o0 a movie or somethi&) else-
.. He sa# the lost %hildre& that #ere missi&)3 o& the mil2 %arto&s3 a&d he #rote a so&) 0or
them.
(. 5as it a spe%i0i% album- $o you remember-
.. 4 %a&6t remember the album.
(. .&d #hose voi%e is o& the so&)-
.. 4t is me a&d my... 4 %o&sider my brother3 ,mer or 'i%hael ?hatti.
(. .&d 4 2&o# it6s )oi&) to %ome up. $oes he have

.. 8i%2&ame-
.. 5e %all him mo&2ey.
(. .ll ri)ht. 7o it #as you a&d mo&2ey o& the video or o& the so&) #ith your dad-
.. /es.
(. !et6s see :G2. Ha video %lip #as playedI
.. that6s mo&2ey a&d me.
(. a&d you-
.. .&d that6s 8everla&d.
(. .&other si&)i&) debut-
.. /es3 it #as.
(. 4s that it-
.. /es3 that #as about it.
(. 8o#3 a0ter you lived at 8everla&d3 #here did you )o-
.. 5e traveled 0or a little bit. 4 %a&6t remember exa%tly #hi%h pla%e %ame 0irst. 4 do 2&o# #e
#e&t to ?ahrai& a&d 4rela&d3 the middle east area3 li2e $ubai a&d 4rela&d. 4 remember stayi&) i&
.spe& a&d 8e# /or2 0or a little bit a&d the& to Ee)as.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy you traveled so mu%h-
.. 'y dad had a lot o0 busi&ess he #as doi&) other tha& musi%3 but some o0 it i&volved musi%
overseas. .&d the middle east... 4rela&d #as musi% middle east #as more busi&ess deals he had.
.&d he al#ays brou)ht us3 his 2ids3 #ith him be%ause he &ever #a&ted to be a#ay 0rom us.
(. $id he ever )o o& lo&) trips a&d leave you )uys at home-
.. 8o. 8ot that 4 remember.
(. $o you li2e traveli&)-
.. /eah. 4 )ot it 0rom my dad.
(. .&d #he& you traveled3 #ho #ould travel #ith you-

.. 4t #ould be me3 my brother a&d sister3 a&d my dad #ith either the &a&&y at some times or
#ith a tea%her.
(. /ou remember #ho your &a&&y #as-
.. 4t %ha&)ed 0rom time to time3 but most o0 the time it #as Dra%e.
(. 5hat6s Dra%e6s last &ame-
.. J#aramba.
(. 4 #o&6t as2 you ho# to spell that. 5as edu%atio& a&d lear&i&) importa&t to your 0ather-
.. 4t #as al#ays importa&t. 40 #e #ere&6t i& s%hool #ith him3 #e #ould be i& s%hool #ith a
tutor3 or he #ould be tea%hi&) about somebody else6s %ultures3 reli)io&s or la&)ua)e so that #e
%ould lear& a&d u&dersta&d #hy it is buildi&)s are built that #ay3 or ho# it is that they i&tera%t
#ith ea%h other3 a&d be reli)iously respe%t0ul o0 everybody6s di00ere&t %ultures a&d di00ere&%es.
(. $id you have3 li2e3 a &ormal s%hool year-
.. /es. 4 started i& the 0all a&d #e&t to spri&)3 six hours a day3 i&%ludi&) P. E.
(. P. E. -
.. /es.
(. .ll ri)ht. $id your 0ather3 #as he i&terested i& #hat you #ere doi&) every day i& s%hool-
.. /es. He #a&ted to 2&o# #hat #e #ere lear&i&) a&d al#ays to @uestio&3 thi&2 0or ourselves3
&ot *ust be told #hat #as ri)ht. To al#ays as2 i0 #hat #e thou)ht to be true3 a&d he al#ays
#a&ted to 2&o# ho# #e #ere doi&) i& s%hool a&d ho# #e #ould use that to better the #orld.
(. 8o#3 other tha& lear&i&) i& s%hool3 did your 0ather try to tea%h you outside o0 s%hool-
.. .ll the time.
(. Ho#-
.. 40 somethi&) happe&ed to him3 or somethi&) happe&ed to us3 he #ould say3 Clear& 0rom your
mista2es. This is a lear&i&) experie&%e a&d &ever 0or)et. C
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you :G>3 a videotape. ?e0ore 4 do that3 did your 0ather a&d you ever3 #he&
you #ere you&)3 #rite a s%ree&play to)ether-
.. /es3 #e did.

(. Tell me about that.
.. 5e #rote a lot o0 s%ree&plays to)ether. 1ust stories3 mostly. 'y dad tau)ht me ho# to #rite
a s%ript3 a&d 4 started #riti&) about mysel0. ?ut #he& #e #rote them to)ether3 ori)i&ally they
#ere story 0ormat. He al#ays said to be %reative3 a&d he helped me to u&lo%2 #hat he %alled
thi&2i&) #ith the ri)ht side o0 my brai&3 be%ause he al#ays said 4 #as le0t<brai&ed.
(. /ou said your 0ather a&d you #at%hed movies to)ether-
.. /es.
(. $id you *ust put them i& a&d #at%h them3 or #as there somethi&) di00ere&t about ho# you
#at%hed movies to)ether-
.. 5e 0irst #at%hed the movie #ithout sou&d to a&alyAe the shots.
(. 5hat do you mea& by that-
.. !i2e3 4 #as tal2i&) about 4 had the %amera &e%2la%e 0i&der3 ho# #e #ould sho# the shot3 my
dad #ould tal2 about ho# the Aoom emphasiAes the drama o0 the play3 or ho# the #ide shot %a&
sho# more i& a& a&)le3 or ho# ea%h shot is divided i&to di00ere&t %uts a&d everythi&).
(. 7o you #ould #at%h the #hole movie #ithout liste&i&) to it-
.. /es.
(. 5ould you #at%h it #ith sou&d eve&tually-
.. 5e #ould #at%h it #ith the sou&d a0ter#ards. .&d he #ould say3 espe%ially #ith horror
movies3 ho# sou&d %a& a%tually ma2e or brea2 the movie.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s ta2e a loo2 at exhibit :G>. (a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#&!
(. #ho tied that tie-
.. That #as a%tually the 0irst time my dad tau)ht me ho# to tie a tie.
(. !oo2s )ood. 4s that the 2i&d o0 thi&) that your dad #ould al#ays be doi&) #ith you3 as2i&)
you #hat you #a&t to do3 ho# you6re )oi&) to help the #orld- 5as that a %ommo& theme i& your
#orld-
.. /es. He #as... Every time he 0ilmed or #e #ere o00 %amera at &i)ht3 he #ould as2 us ho#
#e #ere )oi&) to help the #orld. .&d you %a& see most o0 his ideals #ere i&side o0 me3 my
brother a&d my sister.

(. $o you 2&o# #he& that video #as ta2e&-
.. +hristmas o03 4 thi&23 60= or 60;.
(. 8ot exa%tly sure-
.. 8o.
(. 4 thi&2 you said you #ere...
.. 8i&e.
(. ... 8i&e. 7o seve& years... 46m )oi&) to )et 2illed o& my math here. 'aybe 60F-
.. /eah.
(. .pproximately. .ll ri)ht. 8o#3 did you lear& 0rom your 0ather a&ythi&) about #or2-
.. 'ost o0 my #or2 ethi%s 4 lear&ed 0rom my dad. He #as al#ays #or2i&). 40 he &ever
#or2ed3 he #ould be%ome depressed or... He *ust %ould &ot sit still. 4 do&6t a%tually thi&2 46ve
ever sat a&d relaxed3 *ust sat arou&d a&d did &othi&) #ith him. 4t6s al#ays bee& #or23 or #e
#ere ru&&i&)3 exer%isi&)3 he #as tea%hi&) me ho# to drive3 or he #as #or2i&) o& musi%3 a&d #e
#ere... or #e #ere #or2i&) o& movies.
(. 5ould you des%ribe your dad as laAy-
.. That #ould &ot %ome up i& a&y des%riptio& o0 him.
(. 5he& you #ere )ro#i&) up3 did you have a&y idea o0 ho# 0amous your dad really #as-
.. 8o. 4 did&6t 2&o# ho# 0amous he #as3 a&d he &ever #a&ted us to 2&o#. ?ut me a&d my
sister 0ou&d out3 4 )uess3 be%ause #e #at%hed a video o0 o&e o0 his %o&%erts3 a&d the )irls #ere
%ryi&) a&d bei&) %arried out o& stret%hers. .&d the& a0ter that... li2e3 #e al#ays liste&ed to his
musi%3 but #e &ever really 2&e# ho# 0amous he #as 0or it.
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you exhibit :F1. /ou remember that-

.. 4 remember #eari&) the mas2s. 4 do&6t remember #here that #as ta2e&.
(. ,K. .&d did you... 5as that #he& you #ere outside-
.. 4t #as out i& publi%.
(. $id you ever #ear mas2s #he& you #e&t out i& publi%-
.. /es. 5he& 4 #as #ith my dad3 he used it to ma2e sure &obody 2&e# #hat #e a%tually
loo2ed li2e so i0 #e #e&t out #ithout him3 #e %ould have a &ormal %hildhood.
(. Ho# did you 0eel about that-
.. 5he& 4 #as little3 the mas2s #ere a&&oyi&) be%ause #e had these 0eathers i& our 0a%e3 or
they #ere hot. ?ut &o# that 4 )et 0ollo#ed by them all the time3 4 u&dersta&d #hy he did it.
(. 5as your dad prote%tive o0 you i& publi%-
.. Eery.
(. .ll ri)ht. /ou me&tio&ed 's. J#aramba #as your &a&&y.
.. /es.
(. $o you 2&o# ho# lo&) she #or2ed #ith you-

.. 7he #or2ed #ith my dad be0ore 4 #as bor&. 7he #or2ed 0or his produ%tio& %ompa&y. .&d
the& she later %ame o& as a &a&&y #he& 4 #as bor&... ,r 4 thi&2 #he& my sister #as bor&. 7o
#ith us probably 12 years.
(. ,K. !et me sho# you exhibit :F2. .&d #ho is i& that pi%ture-
.. 'y dad3 Dra%e a&d me.
(. .&d 4 assume Dra%e is i& the... 5hat do you %all it-... 1ea& *a%2et- 4s that #hat you %all it-
.. /es.
(. 4s that you #ith the mas2 o&-
.. 4 thi&2 so.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s see :F3. .&d #ho is i& that pi%ture-

.. Dra%e3 my sister a&d me.
(. .ll ri)ht. Ho# about :FG -

.. Dra%e3 my sister a&d ?la&2et.
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d the& :F> -
.. Dra%e a&d ?la&2et. 4 a%tually thi&2 that #as re%e&t.
(. 5as your dad prote%tive3 or did he let you )uys )o out #ith a&yo&e-
.. 8o3 he did&6t.
(. $id he let you )o out #ithout him #ith Dra%e-
.. Ex%use me-
(. $id he let you )o out #ithout him bei&) prese&t i0 Dra%e #as there-
.. /es3 he did.

(. 8o#3 there6s a depositio& %lip played by .ED !ive i& this trial o0 your sister3 Paris. Have 4
sho#ed that... Have you see& it-
.. 4 have.
(. .&d Paris said some thi&)s that #ere&6t so &i%e about Dra%e. $id you see that-
.. 4 did.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy Paris #ould do that-
.. .0ter the death o0 my dad3 #e ea%h had our o#& di00i%ulties deali&) #ith it. 7he6s havi&) a
hard time ri)ht &o#. ?ut 4 *ust sa# her #ith Dra%e the other day3 a&d they #ere happy3 so...
(. .&d your sister... 5e6ll )et to that. 5as Dra%e at some time termi&ated by your 0ather-
.. /es3 she #as.
(. .&d do you 2&o# #he& that #as-
.. 4 do&6t remember.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy that #as-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o#. 9rom #hat 4 #as told3 she had some perso&al problems that she had to deal
#ith o& her o#&.
(. .0ter your 0ather passed a#ay3 did your )ra&dmother as2 Dra%e to %ome help #ith you-
.. /es3 she did.
(. .&d ho# #as Paris #he& she 0irst sa# Dra%e %ome ba%2-
.. 'e3 my brother a&d my sister #ere all happy to see a 0amiliar 0a%e.
(. 8o#3 4 #a&t to tal2 &o# about the time period o0 200;3 200= ,K- 4& 200; a&d 200=3 do you
2&o# #here you #ere livi&)-
.. 4 thi&2... 4 %a&6t remember3 but 4 #ould say the 'iddle East a&d 4rela&d3 traveli&) 0or a little
bit.
(. Traveli&)-
.. 4 thi&2.
(. $id you ever live i& !as Ee)as-

.. 5e did.
(. $o you 2&o#... /ou6re &ot )reat o& dates. $o you 2&o# approximately #he& that #as-
.. 4t #as be0ore #e moved to the ?el .ir hotel.
(. 7o let6s ba%2 up. ?e0ore you moved to the ?el .ir hotel3 you lived i& !as Ee)as-
.. /es. ,& palomi&o drive.
(. That6s a street i& !as Ee)as-
.. /es.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy you moved to !as Ee)as-
.. There #as a house out i& Ee)as that my dad #a&ted to buy 0or us. ?e%ause #e #ere
traveli&) all the time3 all o0 us3 me a&d my brother a&d sister3 #e said #e #a&ted a home to live
i&. .&d he sa# this house that the royal 0amily o0 ?ru&ei had built3 but they did &ot 0i&ish3 so he
#as )oi&) to buy it 0rom him. .&d that6s primarily #hy $r. Tohme #as o& the #or20or%e3 to )et
that house.
(. /ou remember a spe%i0i% +hristmas i& !as Ee)as #he& you a&d your brother a&d sister
re%eived a spe%ial prese&t3 a& a&imal3 0rom your 0ather-
.. /eah. 4t #as a do) &amed Ke&ya.
(. 5hat 2i&d o0 do)-
.. . %ho%olate labrador retriever #he& he #as puppy. He lost all o0 his #ei)ht3 but he #as
hus2y #he& #e )ot him.
(. $id your dad li2e do)s-
.. 'y dad #as s%ared o0 do)s. He #as terri0ied. ?ut he )ot him 0or us3 a&d he e&ded up li2i&)
Ke&ya. That6s the o&ly do) 46ll ever tou%h.
(. .re you a#are that your 0ather #rote a so&) about you a&d your sister %alled Cyou are my
li0eC-
.. /es.
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you :GF. This is3 a)ai&3 that so&) #ith some photo)raphs that #e put to)ether
#ith you ,K- 40 you #a&t to %hime i& about the photos a&d tell us #hat6s happe&i&)3 that6s ,K.
(a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#& !

.. That6s me a&d my dad a&d my sister. That6s the pi%ture 0rom earlier. That #as my dad a&d
?la&2et. That #as my #hole 0amily.
(. 4s that Ke&ya-
.. /es.
(. 5ere you )uys happy-
.. Eery.
(. Ho# did you 0eel the&-
.. Eery happy.
(. Ho# did you 0eel #he& you a&d your brother a&d sister a&d 0ather #ere all livi&) to)ether i&
!as Ee)as-
.. That #as happy 0or us.
(. .&d3 &o#3 you told us that there %ame a time #he& you %ame ba%2 to !os .&)eles a&d that
you heard your 0ather #as )oi&) to )o o& a tour %alled CThis 4s 4t. C
.. 4 thou)ht it #as %alled the 02.
(. ,K. .&d the& you lived at a hotel 0or a #hile is that ri)ht-
.. /es3 4 did.
(. .&d the& did you move to a house-
.. /es. ,& +arol#ood.
(. $o you 2&o# the address-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# the &umbers. 4 *ust 2&o# it #as +arol#ood3 a&d 4 2&o# ho# to )et there.
(. +arol#ood. ,&ly o&e pla%e. $o you 2&o# arou&d #he& you moved there-
.. 4 2&o# it #as be0ore +hristmas.
(. /ou #ere there 0or +hristmas time-
.. /es.

(. ,K. 8o#3 did you ever )et to 2&o# a ma& &amed Tohme Tohme-
.. 4 did.
(. $id you also meet a ma& &amed Ja&dy Phillips-
.. /es.
(. $id you 2&o# a&ythi&) about the busi&ess deal i&volvi&) .ED .&d your 0ather-
.. 8o. ?ut 0rom #hat he told me3 he #as&6t happy #ith it.
(. .s 0ar as #hat the terms #ere3 all that...
.. 8o.
( That #as&6t somethi&) you #ere i&volved #ith-
.. 8o.
(. 8o#3 eve& thou)h you #ere you&)3 did your 0ather %o&0ide i& you at all about his deali&)s
#ith Ja&dy Phillips3 .ED !ive3 a&d $r. Tohme-
Mr& utna'% ob*e%tio&3 your ho&or. +alls 0or spe%ulatio& a&d hearsay.
Mr. anish: the @uestio& is Cdid he. C
Ju#$e% ,K. 1ust CyesC or C&o. C the #it&ess: yes.
(. .&d duri&) the time that you lived at +arol#ood3 #ho #as livi&) there-
.. 4t #as me3 my brother3 my sister a&d my dad. 'o&2ey #ould sometimes be livi&) there3 a&d
those are the o&ly people that #ould a%tually live there.
(. $id you have &a&&y-
.. 5e had 7ister Jose a&d Dra%e.
(. Ho# old #ere you-
.. Ex%use me-
(. Ho# old #ere you the&-
.. 12. 11 a&d 12.

(. .&d do you 2&o# #hether your 0ather #as ex%ited about the tour-
.. He #as very ex%ited about the tour3 be%ause he #as about to )o o& tour a)ai&. This #ould be
o&e o0... Probably the last time #e #ould be able to see him o& tour a&d that #e #ould be able to
see him per0orm.
(. .&d #ere you ex%ited about it-
.. 4 #as very ex%ited about it.
(. Had you ever see& your dad per0orm live be0ore-
.. 4 thi&2 o&%e #he& 4 #as little3 but it #as&6t at a& a)e to remember the #hole thi&).
(. $id your dad li2e to do rehearsals a&d prepari&)-
.. .ll the time.
(. $id there ever %ome a time #he& you believed your 0ather #as&6t happy #ith the #ay thi&)s
#ere )oi&)-
.. 5ith rehearsals-
(. /es.
.. He #ould %ome home 0rom rehearsals al#ays happy about ho# they #ere )oi&). He *ust
#ished he had more time 0or rehearsals a&d that he %ould have more rehearsals to #or2.
(. 8o#3 did you ever see your 0ather o& the pho&e be%ome upset-
.. . lot o0 times.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho he #as spea2i&) #ith-
.. 4t %ha&)ed. 'ost o0 the time it #as Ja&dy Phillips or $r. Tohme3 0rom #hat 4 2&o#. ,r he
had *ust )otte& o00 the pho&e3 a&d someo&e must have told him somethi&) about them.
(. 7o #he& your 0ather )ot o00 the pho&e3 did his demea&or... Ho# #as his demea&or-
.. He #ould )et o00 the pho&e. He #ould %ry sometimes. .&d a0ter he )ot o00 the pho&e #ith
them3 he #ould %ry.
(. 5as he upset-
.. /es. He #ould say3 Cthey6re )oi&) to 2ill me. They6re )oi&) to 2ill me. C

utna'% ob*e%tio&3 your ho&or. 'ove to stri2e. Hearsay.
Mr. anish: &o.
(. #he& your 0ather #as )etti&) o00 the pho&e a&d %ryi&)3 did he say somethi&) immediately
#hile he #as %ryi&)-
.. /es3 he #ould.
(. $id he say #ho he #as re0erri&) to-
.. 5he& 4 as2ed him #ho3 he said .ED !ive3 Ja&dy Phillips3 mostly3 a&d the& he said $r.
Tohme.
(. 8o#3 did your dad... Ho# #as your dad6s demea&or #he& he #as arou&d... 7tri2e that. $id
you see Ja&dy Phillips at your house-
.. . %ouple o0 times.
(. $id your 0ather be%ome upset more a&d more as time #e&t o&-
.. /es.
(. $id you %o&sider your 0ather to be a 0i)hter-
.. 8o. 'y dad did&6t 0i)ht. He #as li2e my )ra&dma. He #as too 2i&d to 0i)ht a&ybody.
That6s #hy he %alled my )ra&dpa.
(. .ll ri)ht. 5ere you ever prese&t #he& your 0ather #as tryi&) to )et rid o0 $r. Tohme-
.. .ll the time.
(. Tell us about #hat you observed.
.. 5he& #e #e&t to the ?el .ir hotel3 he tried to...
Ju#$e% you 2&o# #hat3 46m havi&) a hard time heari&) you. 7pea2 up a little bit.
.. #he& #e #ere i& the ?everly Hills... ,r ?el .ir hotel3 he tried to )et rid o0 $r. Tohme. He
)ot i& a 0i)ht #ith him over the pho&e3 a&d he yelled at him3 a&d he %ursed him out. .&d 4
remember be%ause me a&d my sister applauded him 0or that.
(. 5hy-
.. 'e a&d my sister did&6t li2e bei&) arou&d him. He )ave o00 bad e&er)y to us3 a&d he made
my dad very upset.

(. 5as your dad someo&e #ho %ommo&ly #ould be upset-
.. 8o. 'y dad #as al#ays a& optimisti% perso& a&d al#ays smili&).
(. ?ut you did &oti%e that #he& he #as deali&) #ith this Tohme Tohme3 he #ould be%ome
upset-
.. /es.
(. .&d did you 2&o#... .t a&y time do you 2&o# #hether your 0ather termi&ated or stopped his
relatio&ship #ith Tohme-
.. To my u&dersta&di&)3 the ?el .ir hotel #as the last time he a%tually ever tal2ed to $r.
Tohme. .0ter that3 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 he did. ?ut the& t#o days3 4 re%all3 be0ore he died3 he said $r.
Tohme )ot the house 4 #as tal2i&) about earlier3 a&d that6s #hy he let $r. Tohme ba%2.
(. ,K. Explai& #hat you mea& by C)ot the house. C
.. Bm3 4 do&6t 2&o#3 li2e3 the details o0 it3 or the real estate part o0 it3 but my dad #as tryi&) to
pur%hase the house be%ause the 7ulta& o0 ?ru&ei is &ot supposed to o#& property i& !as Ee)as
be%ause o0 reli)ious belie0s. .&d3 4 do&6t 2&o#3 4 thi&2 sometime it )ot tied up i& le)al terms.
?ut 0rom #hat 4 u&dersta&d3 $r. Tohme #as 0i&ally able to buy the house.
(. ,K. .&d do you 2&o# i0 he ever did )et the house-
.. 8o. 4 do&6t believe he did.
(. !et6s tal2 about +o&rad 'urray. $o you 2&o# #ho that is-
.. /es.
(. $o you 2&o# #he& you 0irst ever met $r. +o&rad 'urray-
.. 4t #as i& Ee)as #he& #e #ere livi&) i& the Palomi&o $rive house.
(. $id he ever )ive you or... 7tri2e that. $id he ever do a&ythi&)3 li2e exami&e you or your
brother or sister-
.. 5e met him be%ause he #as... He %ame over to our house multiple times to treat us 0or
si%2&esses3 li2e %old or 0ood poiso&i&).
(. $id he ever spe&d the &i)ht at your house i& !as Ee)as-
.. 8o.

(. $id he ever %ome a&d lo%2 a&y rooms i& your house i& !as Ee)as-
.. 8o. He al#ays treated us i& the ope& #he& my dad #as there.
(. 4& the year 200:3 do you remember i0 you #ere livi&) i& the +arol#ood home at that time-
.. /es.
(. $o you remember #he& you #ere livi&) there-
.. Ex%use me-
(. 4 as2ed you that already. /ou do&6t remember #he&3 you 2&o# at least as o0 +hristmas<time3
you #ere livi&) there ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. 5he& you #ere 0irst livi&) there3 #ould $r. 'urray %ome to the home-
.. 9irst it #as +heryl !ee #ho #ould %ome.
(. 5ho is +heryl !ee-
.. 4 thi&2 she6s a do%tor 0rom B.7 +. or B.+.!... .&d she #ould %ome to )ive my dad6s 4Es3
but o&ly i& the livi&) room.
(. .t some poi&t i& time3 did you &oti%e $r. 'urray #as arou&d more-
.. /es. .0ter #e did&6t see +heryl !ee.
(. .&d ho# o0te& #ould $r. 'urray %ome to your home-
.. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 he #ould %ome over every day ex%ept 7u&day &i)ht.
(. $id a&y other do%tor %ome over a&d spe&d that mu%h time #ith your 0ather-
.. 8o.
(. 5ould $r. 'urray spe&d the &i)ht at your home-
.. 4& +arol#ood3 yes.
(. .&d #hat did you see $r. 'urray doi&)-
.. 4 &ever... 4& the be)i&&i&) #he& he #as do#&stairs3 4 sa# him )ivi&) my dad a& 4E i&*e%tio&
o0 %lear li@uid.

(. /ou 2&o# #hat #as i& the 4E-
.. 4 o&ly thou)ht 4E6s #ere 0or vitami&s.
(. 5he& $r. 'urray #ould %ome to the house3 #here #ould he )o #ith your 0ather-
.. 5he& he 0irst started treati&) my dad he #ould do it i& the library or the sitti&) room &ext to
the e&tra&%e. .&d the& later o&3 he did it i& the se%o&d bedroom upstairs.
(. 8o#3 let me sho# you :G13 #hi%h is a dia)ram o0 the home. 4 thi&2 it #as sho#& to you i&
your depositio& by %ou&sel !et6s loo2 a&d see i0 #e %a& see... There6s a master... /ou see that
se%o&d 0loor-
.. /es.
(. .&d there6s a master bedroom is that ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. .&d #here is that-
.. The master bedroom- 4t6s up the stairs a&d to the le0t.
(. ,K. .&d did your 0ather #rite a&y &otes to himsel0-
.. .ll the time3 o& his mirrors3 a&d o& some o0 his bathroom doors.
(. 5hat #ould he #rite-
.. 7ometimes it #ould be so&) lyri%s or messa)es that he %opied do#& 0rom spiritual or
reli)ious leaders3 li2e Da&dhi or *ust... ,r 'arti& !uther 2i&). !i2e histori%al 0i)ures.
(. ,&e o0 them says3 Clove &oC...
.. Cviole&%e ever. C
(. .&d the other o&e says3 C4 am soC... 5hat is that- +a& you read that-
.. C4 am so )rate0ul that 46m a ma)&et 0or mira%les. C
(. Those are thi&)s that... 4s that i& your 0ather6s ha&d#riti&)-
.. /es.
(. .&d he #ould post these o& his mirror-

.. /es. ,r sometimes a%tually #rite them o& the mirror.
(. 5ere these3 li2e3 i&spiratio&al messa)es he #ould #rite to himsel0-
.. /es.
(. 4s that somethi&) he did throu)hout his li0e that you sa#-
.. Every#here #e #ere.
(. 8o#3 #e6ll )o ba%2 to the bi) dia)ram there3 exhibit :G1. 5here #as your room lo%ated-
.. Ji)ht #here it says3 C?edroom 33 Pri&%e. C
(. ,K. .&d #here #as ?la&2et- 5here did ?la&2et sleep-
.. Ji)ht &ext to it #ith my sister. ?ut ?la&2et #ould sometimes sleep #ith me as #ell.
(. 7o o&e bedroom you #ere i&3 o&e Paris #as i&3 a&d ?la&2et #ould )o ba%2 a&d 0orth-
.. /es.
(. 5hat does ?la&2et li2e to do-
.. 'y brother also does martial arts. He ex%els at s%hool3 plays video )ames #ith me a&d some
o0 my %ousi&s. .&d #e )o out3 )o to par2s #e play bas2etball.
(. 4 #a&t to as2 you somethi&). Ho# did he )et the &ame ?la&2et-
.. Bm3 #ith 'o&2ey6s 0amily3 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 it #as his stepdad3 but #e al#ays used to say
C?la&2et3C ?la&2et mea&t blessi&). 7o i0 #e said3 Cbi) bla&2ets3C it #as Cbi) blessi&) to you. C
so #he& my brother #as bor&3 my dad %alled him a blessi&)3 a&d that6s ho# he )ot the &ame
?la&2et.
(. 7o it #as&6t he #as ru&&i&) arou&d #rapped up i& bla&2ets or a&ythi&)-
.. 8o.
(. Tha&2s 0or %leari&) that up. 8o#3 #here #as the room your 0ather a&d $r. 'urray #ould
be-
.. The Cse%o&d 0loor bedroom 2. C
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d #he& your 0ather #as up there3 #as the door lo%2ed or u&lo%2ed-

.. To my u&dersta&di&)3 it #as lo%2ed. 4 tried it o&%e3 a&d that6s #he& it #as lo%2ed.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy it #as lo%2ed-
.. 5he& 4 tried it3 he had bee& meditati&) over 72ype #ith a& 4&dia& spiritual healer3 4 thi&23
a&d it #as lo%2ed so he %ould 0o%us. .&d that6s #hat 4 heard.
(. .ll ri)ht. 72ype. 5hat is 72ype-
.. 4t6s li2e a video %o&0ere&%e %all.
(. 7o you %a&3 li2e3 )o o& a %omputer a&d have somebody o& #ith you-
.. /es.
(. .&d he #as doi&) meditatio& #ith a perso& 0rom 4&dia-
.. /es. 4 believe so.
(. 8o#3 did you ever see a&y type o0 medi%al e@uipme&t-
.. 4E holders a&d oxy)e& ta&2s.
(. 5here #ere the oxy)e& ta&2s-
.. They #ould either be do#&stairs by the 0ro&t o0 the stairs or out ba%2 by the se%urity o00i%e.
(. 5ere they bei&) hidde& a&y#here- 40 a&ybody #as loo2i&)3 %ould they see them-
.. They #ere ri)ht i& the 0ro&t o0 the house.
(. ?e0ore the +arol#ood home3 had you ever see& a&y oxy)e& ta&2s at a&y pla%e you6d lived
be0ore-
.. 8o.
(. 5ere you %o&%er&ed #he& you sa# $r. 'urray at your house so o0te&-
.. 8o. 4 #as 123 a&d to my u&dersta&di&)3 he #as supposed to 2eep... 'a2e sure my dad stayed
healthy.
(. 8o#3 $r. 'urray3 do you 2&o# #hether a&yo&e ever )ave him a&y payme&t or mo&ey-
.. 'y dad used to )ive me %ash3 a %ouple o0 hu&dreds3 a&d he used to say .ED. ... He 0eels so
bad 0or $r. 'urray be%ause .ED 4s&6t payi&) him. They6re supposed to3 but they have&6t paid
him yet3 so3 here3 ta2e him this. .&d my dad #ould )ive him li2e...

Mr& utna'% ob*e%tio&. Hearsay3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% sustai&ed.
(. ,K. $id you have a& u&dersta&di&) o0 #hy you #ere )ivi&) mo&ey to $r. 'urray-
.. ?e%ause 4 )uess3 you 2&o#3 0or esse&tials: 0ood3 #ater a&d )as mo&ey.
(. Ho# mu%h did you )ive him-
.. 'y dad used to )ive me a %ouple hu&dred3 li2e that mu%h3 but he #ould o&ly ta2e hal0.
(. $id you ever see Ja&dy Phillips at your house be0ore your 0ather died-
.. /es.
.. +ouple o0 times.
(. $id it surprise you to see him-
.. Bm3 sometimes it did3 be%ause he #ould %ome up u&a&&ou&%ed #he& my dad #as&6t at the
house.
(. ,K. 5ho #as Ja&dy... 5as Ja&dy Phillips #ith a&yo&e at the home-
.. He #ould %ome either #ith $r. Tohme3 or sometimes he #ould %ome #ith some other me& 4
did&6t re%o)&iAe.
(. $id you ever see him spea2i&) to a&yo&e at your house-
.. 4 sa# him tal2i&) to $r. Tohme o&%e by the stairs #here... 5he& he %ame by himsel0 o&e
day.
(. $id you ever see him spea2i&) to $r. +o&rad 'urray #he& your 0ather #as&6t prese&t-
.. That6s #he& he tal2ed to $r. 'urray o&ly. 4 sa# him tal2 to him t#i%e3 a&d that time #he&
he %ame by himsel03 he #as spea2i&) to him i& hushed #hispers. 4 #as bri&)i&) him #ater3 a&d
he #as tal2i&) to $r. 'urray. He #as )rabbi&) his elbo# a&d loo2ed a))ressive to me.
(. +ould you hear #hat they #ere sayi&)-
.. 8o.
(. Ho# #as 'r. Phillips6s demea&or #he& he #as spea2i&) to +o&rad 'urray-

.. He #as )rabbi&) him by the ba%2 o0 the elbo#3 a&d they #ere really %lose3 a&d he #as
ma2i&) ha&d motio&s.
(. $id it surprise you-
.. /es3 a little.
(. 5here #as your 0ather at-
.. 4 believe he #as at rehearsals.
(. 5as this i& the day or the &i)httime-
.. +loser to the &i)ht. That6s #he& $r. 'urray %ame arou&d.
(. 8o#3 do you 2&o# exa%tly #hat day that #as-
.. 8o.
(. $o you have a re%olle%tio& o0 #he& it #as-
.. 5he& he %ame by himsel03 &o. ?ut #he& he %ame #ith the other me& a&d $r. Tohme3 4
remember it to be the &i)ht be0ore my dad died.
(. .&d there6s bee& testimo&y all over the pla%e. .re you absolutely sure that #as the day-
.. 4 am &ot. 4 %a&6t really remember. 4t #as either the &i)ht be0ore or t#o &i)hts be0ore.
(. Ho# old #ere you the&-
.. 12.
(. .ll ri)ht. 8o#3 #ere there other o%%asio&s #he& you sa# Ja&dy Phillips at your home-
.. 8ot that 4 %a& remember.
(. .ll ri)ht. ,ther tha& #hat you6ve already told us-
.. /es.
(. 8o#3 #he& you sa#... .t a&y time #he& 'r. Phillips #as there3 did you %o&ta%t your 0ather-
.. The &i)ht that 4 thi&2 #as be0ore he died3 4 %alled him up 0rom a se%urity pho&e.
(. ,K. $o&6t tell us #hat he said. 1ust3 did you %o&ta%t him-

.. /es.
(. ,K. $id you do somethi&)... Put that aside. $id you do a&ythi&) else 0or 'r. Phillips or
a&yo&e else he #as #ith at that time-
.. 4 %ame i&. .&d 4 as2ed them i0 he #ould li2e somethi&) to dri&2 or eat3 a&d they said &o.
?ut my dad al#ays told me to bri&) out3 li2e3 %hips or salsa or hors d6oeuvres3 somethi&) li2e
that. 7o 4 #e&t i& the 2it%he& to )et hors d6oeuvres 0or them3 %hips or salsa.
(. 4s that #he& you %alled your 0ather-
.. This #as be0ore... This #as a0ter 4 %alled him.
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d do&6t tell me #hat he said3 but #hat did you do a0ter that-
.. 4 #e&t a&d )ot the %hips a&d salsa3 a&d the& Ja&dy Phillips #as tal2i&) to $r. Tohme a)ai& at
the bottom o0 the stairs3 )rabbi&) his elbo# a)ai& a&d tal2i&).
(. /ou mea& +o&rad 'urray- $r. 'urray-
.. /es. $r. 'urray.
(. /ou said $r. Tohme.
.. ,h. $r. 'urray.
(. /ou 2&o# i0 $r. Tohme3 is he a medi%al do%tor-
.. 9rom #hat 4 heard3 he6s &ot eve& a real do%tor.
(. 5ere you surprised that Tohme #as at your house-
.. 4 #as surprised that they #ere all at my house.
(. 5hy #ere you surprised that Tohme #as there-
.. ?e%ause 4 have&6t see& Tohme i& a #hile3 a&d3 4 mea&3 4 still did&6t li2e $r. Tohme.
(. 8o#3 let6s tal2 about 1u&e 200:. 4 2&o# you6re &ot )reat #ith dates3 a&d 4 2&o# you #ere 12
years old at that time. .s 0ar as you %ould tell3 ho# #as your 0ather6s health 0rom a 12<year<old
perspe%tive-
.. 9rom my perspe%tive ba%2 the&3 4 thou)ht he #as healthy. 4 did&6t see him eat a lot3 but that
#as somethi&)... He ate by himsel0 a lot3 so 4 did&6t 2&o# i0 he #as eati&) at rehearsals. 4 2&e#
he #as #or2i&) a lot. ?ut 4 loo2ed at pi%tures 0rom my )ra&dma a&d )ra&d0ather6s a&&iversary3
a&d he #as really3 really s2i&&y3 almost mal&ourished.

(. ,K. 4& the last part o0 his li0e3 last 0e# #ee2s3 did you &oti%e a&ythi&) u&usual about his
health-
.. 7ome days he #ould %ome do#&stairs a&d say he6s 0reeAi&) %old3 a&d it #as duri&) the
summer3 so 4 did&6t 2&o# #hy he #ould be %old. .&d some days he #ould say he6s hot. He
#as... His temperature3 body temperature #as up a&d do#&. His stre&)th #ould sometimes )ive
out. He #as de0i&itely &ot stro&) e&ou)h.
(. 8o#3 did you... $o you remember the last day that you sa# your 0ather alive-
.. /es.
(. .&d #he& #as that-
.. The day be0ore he died.
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d do you remember your last %o&versatio&-
.. 4t #as #he& 4 tal2ed to him o& the pho&e about Ja&dy Phillips bei&) at the house.
(. The &ext day3 the 2>th3 did you ever lear& that somethi&) may be #ro&) #ith your 0ather-
.. +a& you repeat the @uestio&-
(. /eah. 7orry. The last day3 1u&e 2>th3 is that the day your 0ather passed a#ay-
.. /es.
(. $id you ever lear& that there may be somethi&) #ro&) #ith your 0ather-
.. 8o.
(. Ho# is it that you be%ame to 2&o# somethi&) u&usual #as o%%urri&)-
.. 4 #e&t do#&stairs i& the sitti&) room #ith 7ister Jose a&d my sister3 a&d 4 thi&2 my brother
#as there. .&d 4 heard s%reami&) upstairs. 7omebody bolted out o0 a door. .&d 4 heard
ru&&i&) do#& the ba%2 stairs3 a&d 4 ra& to the 2it%he& to see #hat #as )oi&) o&. .&d 4 sa# $r.
+o&rad3 li2e3 ru& ri)ht ba%2 up the stairs. .&d Kai #as loo2i&) &ervous3 a&d she said3 C$r.
+o&rad #a&ts you upstairs3C a&d .lberto *ust %ame i&side.
(. 5ho is .lberto-
.. The se%urity )uard.
(. .ll ri)ht.

.. .&d he had *ust %ome i&side the 2it%he&. .&d 4 ra& upstairs3 a&d 4 sa# $r. +o&rad doi&) %.
P. J. ,& my dad o& the bed.
(. .&d #hat did you see-
.. 'y dad #as ha&)i&) hal0#ay o00 the bed3 a&d his eyes 2i&d o0 rolled i& the ba%2 o0 his head3
a&d $r. +o&rad #as s%reami&) a&d doi&) +. P. J.
(. .&d #ho else #as there #ith you-
.. .lberto %ame i& the room a little bit later3 a&d #e #e&t do#&stairs. .&d the& my sister %ame
upstairs3 but #e #ere 2ept do#&stairs.
(. 5hat #as your sister doi&)-
.. 7%reami&) the #hole time3 sayi&) she #a&ted her daddy.
(. 5hat #as she s%reami&)-
.. 7he #as s%reami&) K sayi&) she #a&ts her daddy.
(. .&d #hat #ere you doi&)-
.. Bm3 4 #as #aiti&) at the bottom o0 the stairs %ryi&)3 #aiti&) 0or the ambula&%e.
(. $id you )o to the hospital-
.. /es.
(. Ho# did you )et to the hospital-
.. 5e #aited 0or the paramedi%s. The paramedi%s too2 my dad out i& a stret%her3 a&d #e
0ollo#ed them i& a %ar.
(. .&d #he& you )ot to the hospital3 did you do a&ythi&) to try to %om0ort your brother a&d
your sister-
.. 4 told my sister somethi&) that my dad al#ays told us that a&)els are still #at%hi&) over him3
a&d there have to be a&)els all over.
(. Ho# #ere you 0eeli&) the&-
.. ,ptimisti%.
(. $id you lear& eve&tually that your 0ather had passed a#ay-

.. /es.
(. Ho# did you lear& that-
.. 9ra&2 $ileo a&d $r. +o&rad %ame ba%2 i&to the room3 a&d $r. +o&rad said3 C7orry3 2ids.
$ad6s dead. C a&d 0ra&2 $ileo said he had a heart atta%2.
(. .&d #hat happe&ed-
.. 5e *ust %ried.
(. 5ho #as there #ith you-
.. 4& the room #as 7ister Jose3 my sister3 my brother a&d me3 se%urity )uard3 a&d $r. +o&rad
a&d 9ra&2 $ileo.
(. 46m &ot )oi&) to as2 a&y more about that. $o you remember there bei&) a memorial servi%e
0or your 0ather-
.. /es.
(. .&d did you )o to that-
.. 4 did.
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you exhibit :31 .&d #ho is i& that pi%ture-
.. 'e3 my brother a&d my sister.
(. 5here #as that ta2e&-
.. 4 thi&2 o& sta)e at the memorial servi%e.
(. $o you remember #hether your sister spo2e at the servi%e-
.. 7he did.
(. 5as that somethi&) that had bee& pla&&ed out-
.. 8o. 7he *ust )rabbed the mi% a&d *ust said somethi&).
(. !et me sho# you exhibit :G=. Ha video %lip #as played. I
(. 4s that #hat Paris said there-

.. /es.
(. 8o#3 a0ter your 0ather passed a#ay3 has it bee& a& ad*ustme&t 0or you a&d your brother a&d
your sister-
.. /es.
(. 5ho do you live #ith &o#-
.. Ji)ht &o# 4 live #ith my )ra&dma3 my %ousi& Tre&t3 a&d my brother a&d my sister.
(. .&d do you 2&o#3 #ithout telli&) us spe%i0i%ally #here you live3 #hat %ity do you live i&-
.. +alabasas.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho your prese&t )uardia&s are-
.. 'y %ousi& T1. .&d )ra&dmother3 Katheri&e.
(. 7ho# you a 0e# more pi%tures. Exhibit :FF .&d #hat6s the rail %ats-
.. 4 thi&2 it6s a mi&or lea)ue baseball team i& 4&dia&a.
(. .&d #ho is 0rom 4&dia&a-
.. 'y )ra&dma3 my dad3 a&d my #hole 0amily3 mostly.
(. /ou 2&o# #here i& 4&dia&a-
.. Dary.
(. .&d did you )o ba%2 to 4&dia&a-
.. 4 have.
(. .&d did you... 5as there a reaso& that you #e&t ba%2 to 4&dia&a-
.. There #as a memorial servi%e every day at the house at least every summer that my 0amily
)re# up i&3 a&d there6s a )ia&t sto&e ere%ted 0or my dad #ith #ords o& it. .&d the reaso& 4 #as
at the stadium #as3 4 #as thro#i&) the 0irst pit%h o0 the )ame o0 the seaso& at the rail %ats )ame.
(. !i2e a mi&or lea)ue baseball team i& Dary-
.. /es.
(. Ho# #as your pit%h-

.. 4 do&6t 2&o#.
(. $id it stri2e- Probably &ot3 huh- 8ever mi&d. !et6s )o to :F; 5ho is that-
.. That6s me at the %hildre&6s hospital that 4 volu&teer at.
(. !et6s loo2 at :F= $o you 2&o# #here that6s ta2e&- Tryi&) to remember-
.. /eah.
(. 9irst3 #ho6s i& the pi%ture-
.. 'y )ra&dmother3 my sister a&d my brother a&d me.
(. .ll ri)ht. 5e6ll %ome ba%2 to that all ri)ht- !et6s loo2 at :F: 5here is that-
.. That #as i& Derma&y at the ?ambi a#ards. 4 #as selli&) some o0 my dad6s dra#i&)s a&d
lyri%s that had dra#i&)s o& them 0or %harity. 4 #ore the exa%t same suit... 8ot the exa%t same3
but the style o0 suit that my dad #ore #he& he #e&t to that3 the ?ambi a#ards3 a lo&) time a)o.
(. .&d #ho #ere all the 2ids there-
.. They #ere 2ids 0or the %harity that #e #ere supporti&) out there.
(. !et6s see. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :F... .%tually3 :;0 5here is that ta2e&-
.. .t some hotel i& Pasade&a3 4 thi&2. 4t6s #he& 4 #as doi&) my E i&tervie#s o0 the %ast a&d
%re# o0 oA.
(. 5hat is CEC-
.. E&tertai&me&t. 4t6s a tv %ha&&el3 4 believe3 a&d 4 #as doi&) a& i&tervie# o& the %ast a&d %re#
o0 oA3 a&d it #as 1ames 9ra&%o3 the dire%tor3 a&d "a2e. .&d that #as3 li2e3 my 0irst3 really3 debut
i& somethi&).
(. 7o #hy #ere you doi&) that-
.. 4 told my au&t that 4 #a&ted to #or23 a&d she brou)ht this3 a&d 4 #a&ted to do it be%ause 4
thou)ht it %ould be a )reat lear&i&) experie&%e a&d to try somethi&) &e#.
(. $id you li2e it-
.. /eah. That #as 0u&.
(. !et6s loo2 at :;1

Ju#$e% %ou&sel3 %ouple more mi&utes be0ore #e ta2e the brea2.
Mr. anish: oh3 yeah3 sure. 4 lost tra%2.
(. ,K. 5ho is that-
.. 'y sister.
(. $o you 2&o# #here that #as ta2e&-
.. 8o. .%tually3 it had somethi&) to do #ith a +ir@ue du 7oleil sho#.
(. !et me sho# you exhibit :;2 5ho is that-
.. That6s my brother.
(. ?la&2et-
.. /es.
Mr. anish: 4 )uess this #ould be ,K3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% ,K. Ta2e 1> mi&utes.
(. 4 hope #e 0ixed the mi%ropho&e.
.. 4 thi&2 you did.
(. ,K. 8o#3 #e tal2ed be0ore the brea2 that T1. ... 4s that your %ousi&-
.. /es.
(. .&d your )ra&dmother are your %urre&t )uardia&s-
.. /es3 they are.
(. .&d are they doi&) the best they %a& to help you a&d your brother a&d your sister-
.. /es.
(. .&d is it the same as your 0ather-
.. Ex%use me-
(. 4s it the same as havi&) your 0ather there-

.. 4 mea&3 &othi&) #ill ever be the same.
(. 8o#3 4 #a&t to tal2 a little bit about ho# you have bee& a00e%ted by the loss o0 the love3
a00e%tio&3 support a&d )uida&%e o0 your 0ather. +a& you tell us about that3 please-
.. +a& you repeat the @uestio&3 please-
(. 7ure. Ho# have you bee& a00e%ted by the loss o0 love3 %are3 %om0ort3 so%iety3 a&d )uida&%e
o0 your 0ather-
.. 4... 4 mea&3 me mysel0-
(. /es.
.. 4 %a&6t sleep at &i)ht. 4 have a hard time sleepi&).
(. .&ythi&) else-
.. Bm3 0or a #hile a0ter he died3 4 be%ame emotio&ally dista&t 0rom a lot o0 people.
(. .re there thi&)s that you #a&t to share #ith your 0ather that you6re &ot able to-
.. /es3 there is.
(. !i2e #hat-
.. 4 mea&3 there6s the 0irst day o0 )oi&) to s%hool3 there6s havi&) the 0irst )irl0rie&d3 there6s
bei&) able to drive3 )etti&) i& The 8atio&al Ho&or 7o%iety3 all the art#or2 that 4 0i&ished i&
*e#elry3 i& metal. /eah.
(. $o you thi&2 that... 5ell3 stri2e that. $o you thi&2 your dad #ould be proud o0 you 0or bei&)
o& the roboti%s team-
.. 'aybe. 4 tried to ma2e him proud.
(. !et6s tal2 about Paris. Ho# has Paris bee& a00e%ted by the loss o0 the love3 %are3 so%iety3
a00e%tio& a&d )uida&%e-
.. 4 thi&2 o0 all o0 my sibli&)s3 she #as hit the hardest3 be%ause she #as my dad6s pri&%ess. 4
thi&2 #ithout that3 it really hurt her a lot. .&d she... she de0i&itely is deali&) #ith it i& her o#&
#ay 0or that.
(. 4s your sister )oi&) throu)h some rou)h times-
.. 7he is.

(. .re you a&d your 0amily tryi&) to help her a&y #ay you %a&-
.. /es. Espe%ially my %ousi&3 T1.
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d ho# about3 does you or ?la&2et... /ou or Paris3 do you have birthday parties
a&ymore-
.. 'e a&d my sister3 #e do&6t %elebrate birthdays. 4t6s somethi&) #e o&ly did #ith our dad3 a&d
it #ould&6t be the same #ithout him.
(. 8o#3 ho# about ?la&2et- 8o#3 #e as2ed about him. $oes he ever have birthday parties-
.. /es3 he does.
(. $oes he li2e that-
.. /es.
(. +a& you *ust tell us3 #hat do you see that ?la&2et has lost #ith your 0ather-
.. Ji)ht &o# 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 ?la&2et realiAes #hat he lost be%ause he #as so you&). ?ut3 um3 4
mea&3 my brother is still )ro#i&) up3 *ust li2e 4 am3 a&d he does&6t have a 0ather to )uide him or
tell him3 li2e3 tell him #hat6s ri)ht 0rom #ro&). 4 mea&3 he has that3 but &othi&) li2e ho# my dad
#ould do it3 or someo&e to tal2 to about #he& he )oes to s%hool.
(. .re you all doi&) the best that you %a&-
.. /es.
(. $o you miss your dad a lot-
.. /es.
(. 4s there ever a day that you do&6t-
.. 8o.
Mr. anish: &o 0urther @uestio&s. Tha&2 you.
Ju#$e% %ross<exami&atio&.
Mr& utna'% tha&2 you3 your ho&or.
Cross*e+a'ination ,) Mr& utna'

(. Dood mor&i&)3 'r. 1a%2so&.
.. Dood mor&i&).
(. 46m *ust )oi&) to as2 you a %ouple @uestio&s today ,K-
.. .ll ri)ht.
(. The 0irst o&e 4 #a&t to as2 you about is3 you tal2ed about this idea o0 your dad payi&) $r.
+o&rad 'urray.
.. /es3 4 did.
(. /ou remember tal2i&) about that- /ou sa# your dad pay $r. +o&rad 'urray himsel0
.. +ouple times3 did&6t you-
.. 'y dad tried to3 but he #ould &ever ta2e the mo&ey.
(. /ou &ever sa# your dad a%tually )ive him the mo&ey-
.. 4 sa# my dad o00er it to him. 4 did&6t see $r. +o&rad ta2e it.
Mr. anish: 46m )oi&) to ob*e%t. Ea)ue as to time.
Mr& utna'% a&ytime.
.. .&ytime- He %ould have3 but 4 do&6t remember.
Mr& utna'% %a& 4 *ust sho# his depositio&3 i0 4 %ould-
(. /ou remember #e had a depositio& i& this %ase ri)ht-
.. /es3 4 do.
Mr& utna'% 46m re@uesti&) to )o to 2:=/= throu)h 113 i0 4 may.
Mr. anish: is that day o&e or t#o-
Mr& utna'% it6s a%tually... 4t %o&ti&ues3 so 4 thi&2 it #ould be... 1ust a %ouple hours3 so 4 thi&2
it6s %o&ti&ual pa)es.
Mr. anish: #ell3 seve& hours.
Mr& utna'% #ell3 a%tually3 &o3 it #as&6t3 but...

Mr. anish: this is day t#o3 2:=.
Mr& utna'% it #as t#o hours ea%h.
Mr. anish: &o3 it #as&6t.
Mr& utna'% yes3 it #as.
Ju#$e% 4 hear mumbli&).
Mr. anish: #hat li&es-
Mr& utna'% it #as 2:=3 li&es = throu)h 11.
Mr. anish: 4 have &o problem #ith that3 but to )ive his %omplete a&s#er3 you should )o
throu)h 22.
Mr& utna'% you6re #el%ome to play #hat you li2e.
Mr. anish: it6s %omplete&ess. 4t6s *ust six more li&es #here he says exa%tly #hat he *ust said.
Ju#$e% ,K. 1ust play it.
Mr& utna'% tha&2 you.
Mr. anish: so it #ould be throu)h li&e 22. = throu)h 22.
Mr& utna'% #e do&6t have that part prepared3 so i0 they prepare that part3 46m )oi&) to sho#
the part #e6re )oi&) to sho#.
Mr. anish: the& read it.
Ms& Chan$% #e %a& pause3 a&d she %a& ma2e the %lip.
Ju#$e% does&6t ta2e that lo&)3 does it-
Mr& utna'% &o3 it does&6t3 your ho&or.
Ms& Chan$% a%tually3 your ho&or3 it6s to li&e 2>.
Ju#$e% li&e 2>-
Mr. anish: ri)ht. = throu)h 2>.

Mr& utna'% so 0or %omplete&ess3 si&%e they6ve re@uested the %omplete&ess idea3 #e6re )oi&)
to sho# all o0 it3 your ho&or. 4 *ust #a&t to 2&o# i0 #e6re )oi&) 0or#ard #he& #e have similar
ob*e%tio&s-
Mr. anish: #ell...
Ju#$e% let6s ta2e it o&e at a time.
Mr& utna'% ,K. Tha&2 you3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% let6s ta2e it o&e at a time. Ha video %lip #as played #ith the 0ollo#i&) testimo&y bei&)
said:I
"did you ever see your father pay Dr. Conrad Murray? "Ive seen him a couple times. "and did
he pay him in cash? "this is in the... he did only a couple times in the Carolwood house, but
mostly for... In !egas. "and in the Carolwood house, did he pay him in cash, do you know?
"he... Dr. Conrad never took cash. "what did he take? "he never took cash from my dad. "ike,
my dad would give... #e would give us cash and say, give it to Dr. Murray, and then Dr.
Murray would only take a portion of it."
(. .ll ri)ht. 7o let me as2 you the @uestio& a)ai&. $oes that re0resh your re%olle%tio& as to
#hether or &ot your 0ather ever paid $r. +o&rad 'urray %ash i& !as Ee)as-
.. 4& !as Ee)as3 my dad did pay him o&%e.
(. 4t #as o&%e-
.. /es. ?e0ore #e started the busi&ess %o&tra%t.
(. 5hat do you mea& by that3 sir-
.. ?e0ore 4 #as a#are that he had si)&ed to do the 02 are&as.
(. Bh<huh.
.. That6s #he& $r. +o&rad #as treati&) us.
(. 7o that #as i& !as Ee)as ri)ht3 sir-
.. /es.
(. .&d at that time your 0ather paid him i& %ash-
.. /es3 he did.
(. .&d you sa# your 0ather do that-

.. /es. ?ut li2e 4 said3 most o0 the time $r. +o&rad #ould&6t ta2e it3 a&d he #ould )ive it to us
to )ive to him.
(. 7o #he& you said the a&s#er3 a&d #he& 4 said3 Ca&d did he pay him i& %ash-C your a&s#er
#as Cthis #as i& the... he did a %ouple o0 times i& the +arol#ood house3 but mostly 0or i& Ee)as.
C the Cmostly 0orC #as *ust o&e time-
.. /es3 0rom #hat 4 remember.
(. .&d you i&di%ated somethi&) there. 4 as2ed at a&other poi&t i& your depositio&3 4 said... 7o 4
#as tryi&) to u&dersta&d the di00ere&%e bet#ee& payi&) %ash i& Ee)as a&d payi&) %ash i& !os
.&)eles. $o you remember me as2i&) you #hether your 0ather #ould )ive it to him there i&
Ee)as3 a&d do you remember telli&) me3 Cyes3 i& Ee)as he #ould also )ive him %ashC- $o you
remember sayi&) that-
.. 8ot #ord 0or #ord3 but 4 remember sayi&) somethi&) li2e that3 yes.
(. ?ut #he& you said those #ords3 those are the exa%t #ords3 you *ust mea&t that o&e time-
.. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 yes.
(. .&d do you remember #hether your 0ather ever paid $r. +o&rad 'urray #ith %he%2s-
.. 4 do&6t thi&2 so.
(. .&d #hy do you &ot thi&2 so-
.. ?e%ause 4 &ever sa# it.
(. 7o you &ever sa# your dad pay #ith %he%2s-
.. 8o.
(. .&d i& all the times that you #ere treated by $r. +o&rad 'urray i& !as Ee)as3 the o&ly time
you ever sa# your dad pay $r. +o&rad 'urray #as o&%e i& %ash-
.. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 yes.
(. 8o#3 did your 0ather ever pay $r. +o&rad 'urray #ith %ash i& !os .&)eles-
.. 8ot dire%tly.
(. 5hat do you mea&3 C&ot dire%tlyC-
.. He &ever )ave him the %ash3 that 4 %a& remember. He al#ays had us )ive it to him.

(. He #ould have you )ive $r. +o&rad 'urray %ash-
.. /es.
(. 5hat do you mea& by that-
.. !i2e 4 said at my depositio&3 he #ould )ive us the %ash3 a %ouple o0 hu&dreds3 a&d 4 #ould
ta2e it to $r. 'urray3 a&d $r. 'urray #ould o&ly ta2e a portio& o0 it.
(. .&d did you have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hy your dad #as )ivi&) you mo&ey to )ive $r.
+o&rad 'urray as opposed to )ivi&) it himsel0-
.. 9rom #hat he told me...
(. 46m &ot )oi&) to as2 #hat he told you. $o you have a& u&dersta&di&)-
.. ,h3 yes. /es.
(. !iste& to my @uestio& 0or a se%o&d so you ma2e sure you u&dersta&d it.
.. ,K.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy he #as as2i&) you3 his so&3 to )ive the do%tor %ash3 as opposed to )ivi&) it
himsel0- $o you have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hy he #ould&6t )ive it himsel0-
.. /es.
(. 5hat #as your u&dersta&di&) as to #hy he #ould&6t )ive it to him himsel0-
.. 9rom #hat he said or #hat... 9rom #hat my u&dersta&di&) #as-
(. 9rom #hat your u&dersta&di&) #as.
.. That 4 do&6t thi&2 $r. +o&rad #a&ted to ta2e mo&ey 0rom my dad be%ause he 0elt bad.
(. 7o your dad 0elt more li2ely he #ould ta2e the %ash 0rom you-
.. /es.
(. $id he )ive the %ash i& a& e&velope-
.. 8o.
(. Ho# #ould he )ive you the %ash-

.. 1ust %ash.
(. .&d *ust ha&d you %ash-
.. /es.
(. .&d you said hu&dreds-
.. +ouple hu&dreds.
(. 5ere these li2e L100 bills-
.. /es.
(. 7o he #ould )ive you L100 bills a&d as2 you to )ive them to $r. +o&rad 'urray-
.. /es.
(. .&d #ould it be... 5as it %lipped to)ether- 5as it i& a&ythi&)-
.. 7ometimes he #ould #rap a rubber ba&d arou&d them.
(. .&d so i0 4 u&dersta&d it3 there #ould be bills3 a&d they #ould be rolled up li2e i& a #ad-
.. 8o. 4t #as 0lat.
(. 9lat #ith a ba&d arou&d it-
.. /es.
(. 7o you said it #as li2e this 0lat #ith a ba&d Hi&di%ati&)I3 a&d you #ould ha&d it over to him-
.. !i2e a rubber ba&d.
(. .&d that #as somethi&) that he #ould as2 you to do #ith $r. +o&rad 'urray %orre%t-
.. 'e a&d my sister.
(. .&d your sister-
.. /es.
(. 7o the t#o o0 you at times #ould )ive this sta%2 o0 %ash #ith the rubber ba&ds to $r. +o&rad
'urray-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 you #ould %o&sider it a sta%23 but yes.

(. /ou said li2e this: 4s that #hat you6re tal2i&) about-
.. .bout li2e this
(. .&d they #ere hu&dreds-
.. /es.
(. .&d do you remember ho# ma&y times you did that-
.. 4 remember o&ly a %ouple o0 times that 4 did it mysel0 #ith my sister.
(. .&d by a C%ouple o0 times3C do you remember at your depositio& sayi&) it %ould be as ma&y
as 10 times-
.. /es.
(. 7o you thi&2 about 10 times you )ave him that 2i&d o0 sta%2 o0 %ash-
.. /es. He did&6t al#ays ta2e the %ash3 a&d i0 he did3 he o&ly too2 a portio&.
(. ,K. .&d i& !as Ee)as3 did your 0ather ever )ive you %ash to )ive to $r. +o&rad 'urray-
.. That6s #here it started3 yes.
(. 4t started i& Ee)as-
.. /es.
(. .ll ri)ht. 7o the 0irst time your 0ather ever did this3 as2i&) you to )ive %ash to $r. +o&rad
'urray3 #as i& !as Ee)as-
.. /es3 0rom #hat 4 remember.
(. .&d you le0t !as Ee)as sometime prior to +hristmas 200= ri)ht-
.. 4 believe so.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et me as2 you a&other @uestio&3 i0 4 %a&. 4 #a&t to tal2 a little bit about the time
#he& you #ere i& +arol#ood ,K-
.. ,K.
(. /ou #ere i& the +arol#ood house3 at least as o0 +hristmas 200=3 a&d you lived there
%o&ti&uously up u&til the time o0 your dad6s passi&) ri)ht-

.. /es.
(. .s2 you a little bit about #ho #or2ed there.
.. ,K.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho Kai +hase is-
.. 7he #as the %he0.
(. $id she #or2 there at +arol#ood-
.. /es.
(. .&d do you remember there bei&) a time #he& she #or2ed there3 a&d she #as &ot there a&y
lo&)er3 a&d she %ame ba%2 to #or2 a)ai&-
.. /es.
(. .&d did someo&e... $id you have a %he0 i& that time i& bet#ee&-
.. +he0 i& the house #ho #or2ed 0or you all bet#ee& the times #here Kai +hase #as there-
.. 4 thi&2 #e did. 4t6s a little bit va)ue3 but 4 thi&2 #e did3 yeah.
(. .&d #as it a ma&-
.. /es3 it #as.
(. .&d so 's. +hase #or2ed there 0or a period o0 time3 a&d the& there #as a di00ere&t %he0 #ho
#or2ed there #ho #as a ma&3 a&d the& 's. +hase %ame ba%2 %orre%t-
.. 5ell3 the ma&3 he )ot 0ired3 or he le0t3 li2e3 maybe a mo&th be0ore Kai %ame ba%2.
(. 7o do you remember that #as the se@ue&%e: she #as there3 the& he #as there3 the& she %ame
ba%2-
.. /es.
(. 5as 's. +hase allo#ed upstairs-
.. 8o.
(. This %he03 do you remember the ma&6s &ame #ho #as a %he0 i& bet#ee&-

.. He #rote a boo23 but 4 do&6t remember.
(. $o you remember #hether he #as allo#ed upstairs-
.. 8o.
(. /ou tal2ed about a #oma& #ho #as )ivi&) your 0ather 4E6s. Her &ame #as +herily& !ee-
.. /es.
(. .&d she #ould %ome to the house a&d )ive your dad 4E6s3 a&d you sa# that ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. Had you ever see& a&ybody )ive your dad 4E6s be0ore-
.. 8ot that 4 %a& remember.
(. .&d she #ould do this o& the 0irst 0loor-
.. 4s that the )rou&d 0loor-
(. /eah. 5here you #al2 i&.
.. /eah.
(. 7he do it i& that room to the le0t #he& you #al2ed i&-
.. /es.
(. 5as she allo#ed upstairs-
.. 8o.
(. $id you have a&y u&dersta&di&) as to #hether she ever treated your dad upstairs-
.. 4 do&6t thi&2 so.
(. /ou me&tio&ed someo&e &amed 7ister Jose. 5ho is 7ister Jose-
.. 7he #as a &a&&y.
(. 5as she the &a&&y #ho %ame #he& 's. J#aramba #as let )o by your dad-
.. /es.

(. .&d #as she allo#ed upstairs-
.. 4& the be)i&&i&)3 she #as. ?ut3 li2e3 sometime i& the year 200:3 &obody #as allo#ed
upstairs.
(. 7o a time %ame #he& &o o&e #as allo#ed upstairs a&y lo&)er ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. .&d i& 0a%t3 is it true that there #ere &o employees allo#ed upstairs-
.. /es.
(. .&d #hat about se%urity- 5as se%urity allo#ed upstairs-
.. 7e%urity almost &ever %ame i& the house.
(. .&d #he& they %ame i& the house3 #ere they allo#ed upstairs-
.. 8o.
(. /ou had house2eepers3 did&6t you3 sir-
.. /es.
(. 5hat about your house2eepers- 5ere they allo#ed upstairs-
.. 8o3 they #ere&6t.
(. 5as $r. +o&rad 'urray allo#ed upstairs-
.. /es.
Mr& utna'% %ould 4 please see the 0loor pla&- 4 thi&2 it6s previously bee& mar2ed as exhibit
123:12.
Ju#$e% this says C1;GC at the bottom.
Mr& utna'% that6s #hat it #as 0or the %rimi&al trial3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% ,K. 7o you6ve remar2ed it-
Mr& utna'% yeah. .&d it #as remar2ed previously as a& exhibit.
Ju#$e% ,K. Tha&2 you.

(. 'r. 1a%2so&3 is this the se%o&d 0loor o0 your home i& +arol#ood-
.. /es.
(. .&d you had me&tio&ed that the bedrooms to your ri)ht #as yours3 your brother6s a&d your
sister6s %orre%t-
.. /es.
(. .&d is the bedroom to the le0t3 is that your dad6s bedroom3 the o&e that says3 CmasterC-
.. /es.
(. .&d ri)ht up above3 there6s this Cse%o&d 0loor bedroom 2C-
.. /es.
(. 4s that #here $r. +o&rad 'urray treated your dad-
.. /es.
(. .&d you told us a little bit about lo%2s3 a&d the bedrooms bei&) lo%2ed. This bedroom had a
lo%2 o& it %orre%t-
.. 4t did.
(. .&d #he& you 0irst %ame to u&dersta&d there #as
.. !o%2 o& that bedroom3 is that be%ause your dad #as there bei&) treated by $r. +o&rad
'urray-
.. 8o.
(. That6s &ot the 0irst time. 5he& #as the 0irst time-
.. 5he& he #as meditati&) #ith the 4&dia& that 4 %a&6t remember his &ame.
(. 7o that #as the 0irst time you %ame to u&dersta&d there #as a lo%2 o& that room-
.. /es.
(. $o you remember telli&) me somethi&) di00ere&t at the depo-
.. 4 do&6t.

(. ,K. 46m *ust )oi&) to sho# you somethi&). 4t6s 0rom your depo3 a&d it6s pa)e 203/203 to 20G3
li&e 1.
Mr. anish: #hat6s the li&e... ,K. 4 do&6t have a&y problem #ith him playi&) that3 but it6s &ot
%o&siste&t. 4 2&o# he %a& play his depositio& 0or a&y purpose. That6s 0i&e.
Ju#$e% you may.
Mr& utna'% *ust so 4 %a& as2 a @uestio&.
Mr. anish: #ell3 his @uestio& #as3 Cdo you remember telli&) me somethi&) di00ere&t i& the
depositio&3C a&d 4 thi&2 that misstates the testimo&y.
Mr& utna'% a&d he #ill be able to a&s#er that.
Ju#$e% ,K. 5ell3 let6s see #hat it is.
Mr& utna'% tha&2 you3 your ho&or. Ha video %lip #as played #ith the 0ollo#i&) testimo&y
bei&) said: I
"I believe so. "and how did you know the second floor bedroom had a lock? "because the first
time he went to sleep with Dr. Conrad, we were trying to play hide and go seek, and when I tried
to open the door and hide in it, it was locked. "
(. 7o this tal2s about the idea that you 2&e# the se%o&d 0loor bedroom had a lo%2 be%ause the
0irst time he #e&t to sleep #ith $r. +o&rad 'urray3 you #ere playi&) hide a&d see23 a&d tried to
ope& the door to hide i& the room3 a&d that #as lo%2ed-
.. /es.
(. .&d that6s a di00ere&t time tha& the other time %orre%t-
.. /es. 4t #as a0ter.
(. 7o the 0irst time3 the&3 #as&6t here... Ho# you %ame to 2&o# that the se%o&d 0loor bedroom
had a lo%2 #as &ot this time3 but sometime be0ore- That6s ho# you %ame to 2&o# this-
.. .ll the bedrooms had a lo%2 o& it. 4 *ust did&6t 2&o# he #ould lo%2 it. 4 2&e# he lo%2ed it
0or meditatio& 4 did&6t 2&o# he #ould lo%2 it 0or medi%atio&.
(. 46m sorry. 5hat #as that-
.. 9or medi%atio& #he& he #as bei&) treated by $r. +heryl !ee3 he &ever had a loo2 o& that
door. There #ere &o doors3 a&d he did it i& the ope&. The same thi&) 0or $r. +o&rad. 5he& he
started it3 he did it i& the ope&3 a&d #he& he #e&t upstairs3 #e had &o idea he lo%2ed the door.

(. .&d you %ame to u&dersta&d he lo%2ed the door #ith $r. +o&rad 'urray be%ause you #ere
playi&) hide a&d see23 a&d you tried to )et i&3 a&d the door #as lo%2ed-
.. /es.
(. .&d is it true that your 0ather usually lo%2ed the door #he& they #ere i& there3 $r. +o&rad
'urray a&d your dad-
.. 46m &ot sure. 4 did&6t %he%2 that3 but 4 #ould assume so.
(. /ou did&6t have a& u&dersta&di&) o0 that-
.. Ex%use me-
(. /ou did&6t have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hether your 0ather #ould lo%2 the door #he& he #as
#ith $r. +o&rad 'urray-
.. 4 did&6t %he%2.
(. 7o i& the depositio& #he& you said that #as your u&dersta&di&)3 it6s be%ause you presumed
it3 &ot be%ause you 2&e# it-
.. /es.
(. .&d #as the door %losed at all times #he& they #ere i& there-
.. /es3 it #as3 ex%ept 0or i& the mor&i&).
(. .&d did a time %ome #he& you #e&t a&d tried to )et i&to the bedroom #ith your dad #he&
$r. +o&rad 'urray #as there-
.. 8o.
(. 7o you &ever tried to )et i& there-
.. ,&ly that 0irst time #ith hide a&d see2.
(. 1ust the 0irst time-
.. 1ust that 0irst time.
(. 7o every time therea0ter #he& your dad #as there3 you &ever #e&t do#& to tal2 to your dad
or 2&o%2 o& the door-
.. 8ot that 4 %a& remember.

(. .&d #hat about3 do you have a&y u&dersta&di&) about #hether your sister or brother ever
#e&t do#& to try to )et i& that room-
.. 46m &ot sure they tried.
(. 5as that door %losed at all times #he& they #ere i& there-
.. !i2e 4 said3 it #as %losed ex%ept 0or i& the mor&i&)s.
(. ,&e other @uestio&3 i0 4 %a&. /ou tal2ed about this idea that a time %ame #here you sa#
Ja&dy Phillips a&d a perso&... 5e6ll )et to #ho i& a se%o&d... .t the bottom o0 the stairs #here
'r. Phillips #as bei&) a))ressive #ith that perso&. /ou remember that testimo&y-
.. /es.
(. .&d at times today you said it #as $r. Tohme3 at other times you said it #as $r. 'urray. !et
me as2 you a 0e# @uestio&s about that. 5as $r. Tohme someo&e you 2&e# si&%e 200F #he&
you moved to !as Ee)as-
.. 4 thi&2 so.
(. 7o that #as a perso&3 by the time you arrived i& the +arol#ood home3 you had 2&o#& 0or at
least three years ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. 4& 0a%t3 #he& you moved to !as Ee)as3 is it true that o&e o0 the reaso&s you moved to !as
Ee)as #as be%ause $r. Tohme had i&trodu%ed your 0ather to somebody #ho made it possible so
you %ould live i& the palm hotel 0or a year a&d a hal0-
.. /es3 he did.
(. .&d this is someo&e you sa# i& Ee)as3 $r. Tohme %orre%t-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 4 sa# him i& Ee)as.
(. Ho# did you 2&o# he #as that perso&-
.. 4 met him i& Ee)as3 but 4 did&6t really remember #he& 4 sa# him. 4 do&6t remember i0 4 did.
(. .&d Ja&dy Phillips #as&6t someo&e you met u&til you moved to !os .&)eles %orre%t-
.. /es.

(. .&d as #e sit here today3 you do&6t 2&o# #hether that e&%ou&ter that you6ve *ust me&tio&ed
bet#ee& Ja&dy Phillips a&d either $r. Tohme or $r. +o&rad 'urray... /ou do&6t 2&o# #hat day
that o%%urred ri)ht-
.. 8ot de0i&ite. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 it #as the &i)ht be0ore3 but 4 %a&6t tell you... 4 %a&6t be
100 per%e&t sure o0 that.
(. 7o you thi&2 it mi)ht have bee& the &i)ht be0ore that you sa# them there-
.. 46m more tha&3 li2e3 sure it #as more tha& li2ely o& the &i)ht be0ore3 or it #as t#o &i)hts
be0ore.
(. .&d i& 0a%t3 do you have a&y u&dersta&di&) as to #hether or &ot there6s bee& testimo&y here
that the &i)ht be0ore3 Ja&dy Phillips #as at the 7taples +e&ter #ith your dad-
.. 8o.
(. $o you have a&y u&dersta&di&) as to #hether there #as testimo&y here that... .&d the &i)ht
be0ore that3 the 23rd3 he #as also at the 7taples +e&ter-
.. 8o.
(. /ou do&6t 2&o# that-
.. 8o.
(. $o you remember telli&) me at your depositio&... 7tri2e that. !et me as2 you di00ere&tly.
That really bad mor&i&)3 the 2>th3 you did&6t see your dad that mor&i&) ri)ht-
.. 8o.
(. $o you remember telli&) us at your depositio& that the mor&i&) a0ter you believe you sa#
Ja&dy Phillips #ith a do%tor3 #hether it #as Tohme or $r. +o&rad 'urray3 you remember
sayi&) that the &ext mor&i&)3 you tal2ed to your dad about it-
.. Ex%use me-
(. /ou remember telli&) us at your depositio&3 that the mor&i&) a0ter you sa# Ja&dy Phillips i&
your house3 the &ext mor&i&)3 you tal2ed to your dad-
.. 4 do&6t remember sayi&) that.
(. ,K. !et me *ust sho# you your depo3 i0 4 %a&.
Mr& utna'% this #ill be pa)e 2>;/1: throu)h 23.

Mr. anish: 1: to #hat-
Ms& Chan$% 23.
Mr. anish: #ell3 )o ahead.
Mr& utna'% ,K. Ha video %lip #as played #ith the 0ollo#i&) testimo&y bei&) said: I
"did you ever tell anybody that $andy was there with Dr. Conrad Murray? "my dad. "and when
did you tell him that? "I told him the ne%t morning that I saw him. "
(. $oes that re0resh your re%olle%tio&-
.. /es3 it does. .s 4 told ?ria&3 that 4 sa# $r. +o&rad a&d Ja&dy Phillips tal2i&) o& t#o
o%%asio&s3 a&d 4 believe 4 said that i& my depositio&. That #as o&e o0 the o%%asio&s that #as
previous to his passi&).
(. ,K. ?ut do you remember tal2i&) to your dad the &ext mor&i&) a0ter this eve&t-
.. /es.
(. .&d you did&6t tal2 to your dad the mor&i&) o0 the 2>th %orre%t-
.. 8o.
(. 7o this %ould&6t have o%%urred o& the 2Gth that #e &o# 2&o# ri)ht-
.. 5ell3 li2e 4 said3 it happe&ed o& t#o o%%asio&s.
(. 46m sorry. 5hat happe&ed o& t#o o%%asio&s-
.. $r. +o&rad a&d Ja&dy Phillips tal2i&).
(. ,K. .&d #as your dad &ot there either time-
.. /es.
(. 7o there #ere t#o times #here they tal2ed. /ou remember telli&) me there #as o&e time i&
your depo-
.. 4 did. .&d the& 4 %leared it up at the e&d3 that 4 remembered there #ere t#o times.
(. ,K. .&d you6re &ot sure #he& that o%%urred %orre%t-
.. Ex%use me-

(. /ou6re &ot sure #he& that happe&ed-
.. 5he& the 0irst time happe&ed- 8o.
(. .&d you6re &ot sure #he& the se%o&d time happe&ed3 either ri)ht-
.. 9rom #hat 4 %a& remember3 it #as the &i)ht be0ore.
(. ?ut that se%o&d time3 that6s the time that you said that the &ext mor&i&) you tal2ed to your
dad-
.. 8o. 4t #as the 0irst time.
(. /ou thi&2 so-
.. /es.
(. .&d i0 a perso& %ame to your house3 a&d your dad #as&6t there3 ho# did they )et i&-
.. 7e%urity #ould let them i&.
(. 1ust let them i&-
.. 9or people li2e Ja&dy Phillips a&d $r. Tohme3 a&d people 0rom .ED. 3 they )ot let i&. ?ut
people li2e my )ra&dpa3 they tur&ed a#ay.
(. 7o some people #ould *ust )et let i&3 a&d other people )ot tur&ed a#ay-
.. /es.
Mr& utna'% your ho&or3 4 do&6t have a&ythi&) 0urther at this time.
Ju#$e% a&y redire%t-
Mr. anish: yeah. Jedire%t exami&atio&.
(. ,K. $id you hear %ou&sel *ust say that your depositio& #as o&ly t#o hours- 4t #as &ot o&ly
t#o hours.
Mr. anish: #hat did you say it #as3 %ou&sel-
Mr& utna'% 4 said it #as t#o a&d t#o3 4 believe.
(. 5ell3 let6s ta2e a loo2 a&d see #hat really... 5ho #as as2i&) all the @uestio&s at the
depositio&-

.. 'r. Put&am.
(. .&d the 0irst day #as o& a 7aturday is that ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. 4& 'r. Put&am6s o00i%e-
.. /es.
(. 4s that ri)ht- .&d #ere you s%ared #he& he #as @uestio&i&) you-
.. Bm3 &ot so mu%h s%ared. 46d *ust li2e to apolo)iAe. 4 did&6t 2&o# 4 had to #ear a suit o& that
day3 so... 4 did&6t 2&o# #hat 2i&d o0 eve&t it #as. 4 thi&2 it #as *ust be%ause... 8ot the #ay you
#a&t to spe&d your #ee2e&d3 exa%tly.
(. 5e 2&o# that. The depositio& o& a 7aturday started at 10: 3F i& the mor&i&).
Ju#$e% the #it&ess has to either a)ree or disa)ree.
Mr. anish: 46m sorry.
.. 4 %a&&ot...
(. $o you remember readi&)3 it says the time-
.. /es.
(. .&d the& it e&ded at... 5hat time did it e&d-
.. 2: 2> P'.
(. ,K. .&d you too2 a 1><mi&ute brea2 at... 4 2&o# you too2 a 1><mi&ute brea2 some#here.
!et me *ust 0i&d it here. ,K. .%tually3 you too2 a brea2 at... 4 #a&t to be %orre%t3 be%ause 4
2&o#... ,K. 7o you too2 a brea2 at 11: 2= to 11: GG3 a&d the& at 12: 233 #e too2 a brea2 u&til 1:
0G. .&d the& you #ere there u&til 2: 2>. 8o#3 o& the se%o&d day3 you be)a& at... 5hat time did
it be)i&-
.. .t 2: 00 P'.
(. ,K. 4 thi&2 that #as duri&) the #ee23 a%tually.
.. /es3 it #as.
(. 5as it a0ter s%hool-

.. 5ell3 duri&) s%hool. 4 )ot pulled out 0or it.
(. ,K. .&d it 0i&ished at #hat time-
.. >: 12.
(. ,K. .&d you too2 t#o brea2s-
.. 4 %a&6t remember ho# ma&y brea2s 4 too2.
(. .&d ho# ma&y pa)es o0 @uestio&i&) did 'r. Put&am do-
.. Ji)ht here -
(. /eah.
.. 3>3.
(. ,K. .&d did they ta2e your sister i&to a depositio& 0or seve& hours-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# ho# lo&) hers #as. ?ut a0ter 4 did mi&e3 4 told T1. That she should&6t be able to
do that.
(. .&d did your sister have some problems a0ter her depositio&-
.. 7he had some problems be0ore3 a0ter3 a&d 4 assume duri&).
(. 7he had some emotio&al problems a0ter the depositio&-
.. /es.
(. 8o#3 let6s %lear up t#o thi&)s here. ?y the #ay3 your sister3 do you 2&o# #ho too2 her
depositio&-
.. 4 believe it #as T1.
(. 8o3 &o. 46m sorry. T. 1. 4s &ot a la#yer ri)ht-
.. ,h.
(. That6s la#yer tal2. 46m sorry. $o you 2&o# #ho #as @uestio&i&) your sister at her
depositio&-
.. 4 thi&2 'r. Put&am #as.
(. $o you 2&o# i0 's. Jobi&so& here .. $o you 2&o# her-

.. 4 do.
(. $o you 2&o# #hether she #as @uestio&i&) your sister3 also-
.. 4 have &o idea.
(. ,K. .&d i& 0a%t3 #here did your sister have to )ive her 0irst depositio&-
.. 4 believe it #as )oi&) to be at 'r. Put&am6s o00i%e.
(. $o you remember some#here that you #e&t the day #here she )ave her depositio&-
.. 4 believe T1 petitio&ed 0or it to be do&e here i& the *ury room.
(. 8o#3 let6s tal2 about $r. +o&rad 'urray. .&d 46d li2e to play the rest o0 your testimo&y that
you )ave.
Mr. anish: a&d that #ould be at pa)e 2:=... Ex%use me... 2::3 li&e 1 to 2> #here 'r. Put&am
le0t o00.
Mr& utna'% ex%use me3 a)ai&-
Mr. anish: 2::/1 to 2>. Ji)ht a0ter you stopped. 4s that ,K-
Mr& utna'% o&%e 4 see it.
Mr. anish: you #ere 2:=3 up to 2>.
Mr& utna'% sure.
Mr. anish: ,K. 1osh3 ho# #e doi&) o& that- ,&e se%o&d.
(. 5hile he6s )etti&) that ready3 the time that you sa# 'r. Phillips... He %alled him $r. Phillips.
$o you 2&o# i0 he6s a do%tor or &ot-
.. 4 did&6t thi&2 he #as a do%tor.
(. 'r. Phillips3 #he& he #as )rabbi&) the arm o0 that i&dividual3 #as that Tohme3 or #as that
+o&rad 'urray-
.. +o&rad 'urray.
(. .&y @uestio& i& your mi&d-
.. 8o. They loo2 %ompletely di00ere&t.

(. That is true. .ll ri)ht. 8o#3 #he& you #ere at... Tal2i&) i& your depositio& about the %ash
that your 0ather had bee& )ivi&)... ,r3 ex%use me. The %ash your 0ather )ave you to )ive to $r.
'urray3 a&d you #ere tryi&) to %omplete your a&s#er3 did 'r. Put&am %ut you o00 i& the
depositio&-
.. 8ot that 4 %a& remember3 but he %ould have.
(. 4 mea&3 at the trial ri)ht &o#.
.. .t the trial- /es.
(. ,K. 5ithout telli&) us #hat a&yo&e said3 did you have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hy your
0ather )ave you some L100 bills to )ive to $r. 'urray-
.. /es.
(. 5hat #as that-
.. That $r. 'urray #as &ot )etti&) paid a&d that he &eeded some mo&ey to )et... 5e6re tal2i&)
about at +arol#ood ri)ht-
(. Ji)ht.
.. That he #as &ot )etti&) paid. He #as supposed to be a&d that my dad #as )ivi&) him some
mo&ey to help him )et paid u&til he )ot a pay%he%2.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho #as supposed to pay-
.. .ED.
(. 8o#3 let6s play that testimo&y. Ha video %lip #as played #ith the 0ollo#i&) testimo&y bei&)
said: I
"and what kind... &o your dad would give you money to give to Dr. Conrad Murray? "yes. "did
he also do that in !egas? "in !egas, he would give it to him with us there. "'(. )nd in !egas,
would he also give him cash? "yes. "did... *o your knowledge, did he ever pay him with a
check? "I wouldnt know. "'(. &o to your knowledge, all you ever saw him pay him with was
cash? "yes. "and in !egas, did he ever give you money to give to Dr. Conrad Murray? "no. "did
you have an understanding as to why he started doing that at Carolwood? "he felt bad for him.
"what do you mean? "something was going on with Dr. Murrays finances. I dont think he was
getting paid for what he was doing. "
(. .&d the& did 'r. Put&am %ut i& o& the a&s#er there-
.. /es.

(. .&d is that #hat you *ust told us today-
.. /es.
(. Exa%tly #hat you testi0ied to i& the depositio& at %ou&sel6s o00i%e-
.. /es3 it is.
(. ,K. 8o#3 %ou&sel as2ed you about 4E6s #ith +herily& !ee. Jemember that-
.. /es.
(. $o you remember #hat 2i&d o0 do%tor +herily& !ee is3 or i0 she #as eve& a do%tor-
.. 4 remember heari&) she #as a &urse.
(. ,K. .&d the 0luids3 or the 4E3 %ould you tell us... 7tri2e that. $id you see her )ive 4E6s to
a&yo&e else i& your 0amily-
.. 8o.
(. $id you have a& u&dersta&di&) o0 #hat that 4E #as 0or-
.. 4 thou)ht it #as 0or my dad so he %ould )et the protei&s he &eeded #hile he #as bur&i&)
throu)h so mu%h.
(. Have you ever )o&e throu)h a&ythi&) i& your #hole li0e... 4 2&o# it6s o&ly bee& 1F years...
!i2e the loss o0 your 0ather-
.. 8o.
Mr. anish: &othi&) 0urther.
Mr& utna'% i0 4 may3 your ho&or-
Ju#$e% re%ross- /es3 you may.
(. 'r. 1a%2so&3 your depositio& #as i& my o00i%e3 #as&6t it-
.. /es3 it #as.
(. .&d did you %ome #ith your )ra&dma-
.. The 0irst time3 4 believe 4 did.

(. .&d did you %ome #ith T1 -
.. /es.
(. $id you %ome #ith a bu&%h o0 se%urity-
.. 1ust o&e3 4 thi&2.
(. .&d do you remember #hether or &ot you #ere as2ed #hether you6d li2e to have it o& a
7aturday to best e&sure the paparaAAi #ould &ot be arou&d-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# #hy it #as 0or 7aturday3 but pretty sure it #as s%hool.
(. .&d do you 2&o# i0 it #as your %ou&sel #ho a)reed to have it 7aturday i& our o00i%e-
.. 46m &ot sure.
(. 5he& you %ame3 you #ere let i&side the buildi&) ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. /ou #ere brou)ht up to a 0loor #here the depositio& o%%urred-
.. /es.
(. $o you remember there bei&) a bi) spread that #as laid out 0or lu&%h 0or you-
.. /es3 4 do.
(. .&d do you remember your )ra&dma tha&2i&) us 0or bei&) so a%%ommodati&)-
.. 4 do&6t remember.
(. .&d do you remember our setti&) up a separate room 0or a&ybody o& your team3 should they
li2e to )o some#here to spea2 privately-
.. /es.
(. .&d you #e&t throu)h all the timi&) o0 it. The a%tual time you #ere i& the depositio& #as
.. !ittle over t#o hours is that ri)ht-
.. 4 do&6t thi&2 so.

(. The time you #ere a%tually bei&) as2ed @uestio&s. 40 you ta2e out the time 0or the brea2s3
a&d you ta2e out the time... 46m tal2i&) about the 0irst time. That 0irst time3 about t#o hours
%orre%t-
.. 46m &ot )ood #ith &umbers3 so 4 #ould&6t 2&o#.
(. ,K. $o you remember that depositio& e&ded be%ause you had de%ided that you #ere tired-
.. /es.
(. .&d so you as2ed i0 #e %ould %o&ti&ue this o& a&other day-
.. 4 do.
(. .&d you remember us sayi&)3 sure3 o0 %ourse3 a&ytime that6s )ood 0or you-
.. 8o.
(. 5hat happe&ed-
.. 5e tried3 4 thi&23 leavi&)...
(. 46m sorry-
.. 4 believe that3 0rom #hat 4 remember3 #e tried leavi&) a little earlier be0ore the time that 4
had le0t the 0irst time3 a&d #e *ust %o&ti&ued #ith the @uestio&s3 a&d the& #e le0t at a di00ere&t
time.
(. 7o the time %ame #he& you as2ed to leave3 a&d #e said3 C9i&e. !et6s )oC-
.. /eah.
(. .&d it %o&ti&ued o& a&other day %orre%t-
.. /es.
(. .&d3 a)ai&3 it #as a day %hose& by your %ou&sel-
.. 4 )uess it #as.
(. .&d the lo%atio&3 a)ai&3 %hose& by your %ou&sel-
Mr. anish: ob*e%tio&. That6s &ot a%%urate.
Mr& utna'% stri2e that3 the&.

Mr. anish: he re0used to do it at our o00i%e.
Mr& utna'% 46ll %o&ti&ue 0rom the&.
(. Ho# lo&) did that )o3 approximately3 'r. 1a%2so&- 5as that about t#o more hours-
.. 9elt a lot lo&)er3 but 4 have &o idea.
(. .&d that #as it3 that #as the e&tirety o0 all o0 the @uestio&s is that ri)ht- 8o 0urther @uestio&s
#ere as2ed o0 you 0rom that mome&t u&til today-
.. /es.
(. .&d you me&tio&ed that your sister had a depositio&3 but that depositio& i&itially too2 pla%e
here %orre%t-
.. /es.
(. .&d that #as at the re@uest o0 your 0amily %orre%t-
.. /es.
(. 7o the reaso& it #as here is be%ause you all re@uested it be here ri)ht-
.. To my u&dersta&di&)3 yeah.
(. .&d do you have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hether that depositio&3 too3 e&ded be%ause your
sister #as tired-
.. 4 have &ot see& my sister6s 0ull...
(. $o you 2&o# that depositio& #as %o&ti&ued i& my o00i%es later-
.. 46m &ot sure.
(. $o you u&dersta&d as to #hether your %ou&sel a)reed to have it i& our o00i%es be%ause it
#as&6t &e%essary to have it here-
.. 46m &ot sure.
(. .&d do you have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hether your %ou&sel stipulated o& the re%ord that
the depositio& had bee& do&e absolutely appropriately a&d that &othi&) u&to#ard or u&savory
had o%%urred duri&) the depositio&-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 they did that.

Mr& utna'% tha&2 you3 sir.
Ju#$e% a&y... 0urther redire%t exami&atio&
(. $id 'r. Put&am have a bi)3 hu)e o00i%e-
.. 4t #as a buildi&).
(. /eah.
.. ?i)3 tall buildi&)-
.. /es.
(. ?i) %o&0ere&%e room-
.. /es.
(. ,K. 8o#3 'r. Put&am3 did he try to be mea& to you i& the depositio&-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# ho# you #ould %hara%teriAe bei&) Cmea&. C
(. !et me as2 you this: do you thi&2 he #as bei&) a la#yer represe&ti&) his %lie&t the best he
%ould-
.. .s a de0e&se la#yer3 yes.
(. 5hat does that mea&-
.. Bm3 that6s &ot ho# 4 #ould #a&t to spe&d my 7aturday.
(. .ll ri)ht. 9air e&ou)h. ?ut 'r. Put&am #as&6t mea& to you ri)ht-
.. 4 do&6t... 46m &ot used to deali&) #ith la#yers3 so 4 do&6t 2&o# #hat Cmea&C or...
(. .ll ri)ht. 4 #ill say it. 'r. Put&am3 as 0ar as 46m %o&%er&ed3 #as &ot mea& to you ,K-
.. /es.
(. 5e #ill a)ree to that all ri)ht- ,&e thi&) #e %a& a)ree o& all ri)ht-
.. /eah.
(. ,K.
Mr. anish: 0air e&ou)h. That6s all 4 have. !oo2s li2e a )ood time 0or a lu&%h brea2.

Ju#$e% ,K.
Mr& utna'% your ho&or3 #e %a& obviously let him )o &o# but be sub*e%t to re%all i& our %ase-
Mr. anish: #hatever you #a&t. ?ri&) him ba%2.
Ju#$e% ,K. Tha&2 you. /ou may step do#&. /ou may be re%alled3 but you may step do#&.
Tha&2 you.
Lunch-&&
Ju#$e% )ood a0ter&oo&. $id you #a&t to tal2 to me-
Mr& anish% yes3 your ho&or3 4 didM primarily o& s%heduli&)3 a&d o& some exhibits. 7o the pla&
#as &o#... 5ell3 the pla& #as... .t least my pla& #as that 'r. Pri&%e 1a%2so& #as )oi&) to ta2e
lo&)er tha& he did3 so he6s 0i&ished early. 5e have the depositio& o0 'r. !ei#e2e. There are
some exhibits that &eed to be ruled o&. There are three exhibits that %ou&sel ob*e%ted to3 a&d
they6re ready to ar)ue that. 5e %a& sho# that a0ter this. 5e have T1 1a%2so& here3 #ho %a&
testi0y &ext. 5e are pla&&i&) o& T1 a&d Ta* maybe )oi&) tomorro#M a&d the& #e have3 maybe3
a&other depositio&3 but it may be shorter tomorro#. 7o the @uestio&... .&d there are at least
three... There6s t#o motio&s that 4 2&o# o03 a&d a&other ar)ume&t o& some depositio& portio&s
that &eed to be addressed by the %ourt. 7o there6s ar)ume&t o& $r. 9i&2elstei&3 there6s a motio&
#ith 'r. .&s%hutA3 a&d there6s a motio& #ith 'r. Taylor. 7o there6s three other... 4 thi&2 that...
4s that ri)ht3 's. +aha&-
Mr& .o)le% yes.
Ms& Cahan% yes3 a&d 4 #a&ted to tal2 about the depositio& subpoe&a 0or 's. J#aramba.
Mr& anish% ri)ht. .&d there6s a&other matter. 7o those are all )oi&) to ta2e time. 'aybe i0 #e
brea2 earlier today3 #e %a& ta2e up some o0 those. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 you6re ready o& those motio&sM
but #e %ould dis%uss 's. J#aramba3 0or example3 a&d #e %ould dis%uss $r. 9i&2elstei&3 at least3
be%ause 4 2&o# you6re 0amiliar #ith those. 'aybe tomorro# #e %ould dis%uss the other matters.
46m *ust tryi&)...
Ju#$e% at least .&s%hutA3 #e %a& de0i&itely dis%uss tomorro#.
Mr& anish% o2ay. .&d also3 maybe3 'r. Taylor. 4 do&6t 2&o# #here you6re at o& that. 4t6s all
bee& 0ully brie0ed3 you probably have&6t had a %ha&%e to loo2 at it.
Ju#$e% &ot o& Taylor.

Mr& anish% so 46m *ust tryi&) to advise you... ?e%ause the& 9riday is 's. 9aye3 a&d #e do&6t
#a&t to ru& over3 but 4 do&6t thi&2 that6s )oi&) to be a problem ri)ht &o#. 7o it is our i&te&tio&
that 's. 9aye #ould be all day 9riday. 7o #e have a& issue #hether it6s )oi&) to be today or
tomorro# o& the timi&)3 a&d 46m tryi&) to pla& #ith the %ourt6s help o0 ho# to use that time most
e00i%ie&tly.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% i& other #ords3 short o0 time or too mu%h time.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o tell me #hi%h... +a& you play some depos today-
Mr& anish% yeah. 5e6re ready... 'r. !ei#e2e is about a& hour3 4 thi&2. 4s that ri)ht-
Mr& .o)le% yes.
Mr& anish% a&d the& #e have 'r. T. 1. 1a%2so&3 #e %ould put him o& today. That #ill ta2e us
0or3 you 2&o#3 a )ood portio& o0 the day today. ,2ay. The& tomorro# #e6re )oi&) to &eed
ruli&) o& 9i&2elstei&3 #hi%h is o&ly a& hour a&d 20 some mi&utesM a&d the& #e have Ta* 1a%2so&M
a&d3 really3 that6s it u&til 's. 9aye.
Ju#$e% o2ay. The depositio& o0 9i&2elstei& is o&e hour a&d 20 mi&utes-
Mr& anish% approximately. .&d the& there6s still some ruli&)s3 obviously. 46m *ust )ivi&) you
a& estimate. 4t6s &ot a& hour a&d >0 mi&utes3 it6s bet#ee& 20 a&d 303 or 1=3 a&d...
Ju#$e% a&d the& #hat else-
Mr& anish% Ta* 1a%2so&. Jeally3 4 thou)ht pri&%e #as )oi&) to ta2e most o0 the day.
,bviously3 he did&6t3 so #e6re happy #ith that3 but3 you 2&o#3 #e6ve )ot a& issue.
Ju#$e% o2ay. /ou thi&2 Ta* 1a%2so& #ill ta2e the rest o0 the day-
Mr& anish% you mea& T1 today-
Ju#$e% the 0ollo#i&) day.
Mr& anish% &o3 4 do&6t thi&2 he6ll ta2e the #hole day3 &o.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% 46m &ot a&ti%ipati&). 4 do&6t 2&o# ho# lo&) they6re )oi&) to %rossM but the dire%t is
&ot a&ti%ipated to be3 you 2&o#3 hours a&d hours. ?ut i0 #e play the video a&d him... 'aybe. 4
have &o idea ho# lo&) they #ould %ross3 4 have&6t eve& as2ed them that yet.
Mr& ut'an% very little.

Mr& anish% o2ay. 7o the& #e 2&o# that6s very little. 7o the& 4 do&6t thi&2... !i2e Cvery littleC
is less tha& a hal0 a& hour-
Mr& ut'an% obviously3 4 have to #ait a&d seeM but it6s )oi&) to be very little.
Mr& anish% that6s... 4 u&dersta&d3 he6s *ust telli&)... ?ut it6s either Cvery little3C or Cdepe&ds o&
#hat he says3C so 4 do&6t have a&y #ay to )au)e. That6s all 46m sayi&). 46m &ot tryi&) to restri%t
him.
Mr& ut'an% ho# lo&) do you thi&2 you6ll be3 sir-
Mr& anish% you %all me Csir3C &o#- Tha&2 you. /ou 2&o#3 maybe a& hour a&d a hal0.
Mr& ut'an% 4 %a&6t see #e6d be lo&)er tha& a& hour3 your ho&or.
Ms& Cahan% i0... That plus a& hour a&d a hal0 o0 video3 that )ets us to about 0our hours3 plus
#e6ll have ar)ume&t o& the 9i&2elstei& stu00 that probably #ill 0ill up the time.
Mr& anish% 46m hopi&) that it #ill all be 0i&e. 4 *ust do&6t #a&t to be sitti&) here at 2:30 a&d
you6re loo2i&) at me sayi&)3 C'r. Pa&ish3 #hat6s )oi&) o&- 4 #a&t to have #it&esses here3C #hi%h
has al#ays bee& my i&te&tio&. 46m *ust advisi&) the %ourt #here #e6re at so there6s &o issue.
That6s all. ?ut 4 2&o# that3 0or example3 !ei#e2e has to )et ruled o& ri)ht &o# 0or us to be able
to play itM so #e 2&o# that3 at least.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 4 #as *ust )oi&) to as2 are there a&y other depositio&s that are outsta&di&) that you
%ould play as a 0iller a0ter Ta* 1a%2so&-
Mr& anish% 4 do&6t thi&2 so. .re there-
Ju#$e% Taylor-
Mr& anish% #ell3 Taylor3 you have&6t ruled o&. 7o you6ve )ot to rule o& that. Taylor %ould be
played. That6s really the o&es.
Ju#$e% 4 %a& see i0 4 %a& )et movi&) o& that. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 46ll be ready by the&. 46ll try.
Mr& ut'an% *ust so your ho&or 2&o#s3 our positio& is that it %a&6t be played at all3 so this is&6t
o&e #here...
Ju#$e% a portio& o0 it.
Mr& ut'an% exa%tly. 4 *ust #a&t you to u&dersta&d #hat you6re )etti&) to so you do&6t rely o&
the idea there mi)ht be somethi&) there.
Mr& anish% that6s a 0air assessme&t o0 his positio&.

Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% so 46m *ust tryi&) to lay it out. 5e do&6t have to de%ide this mi&ute3 but 4 *ust #a&t
to advise you so 46m &ot havi&) you loo2 at me li2e3 C#hat6s up-C
Ju#$e% o2ay. 5ell3 #hy do&6t #e *ust... 5hy do&6t #e )o 0or#ard #ith !ei#e2e ob*e%tio&s
ri)ht &o#.
Ms& Cahan% yesterday 'r. ?oyle )ave me a sta%2 o0 do%ume&ts that #ere mar2ed at 'r.
!ei#e2e6s depositio& as exhibits a&d said he #ould... 4&te&ded to move them i&to the evide&%e
#ith the playi&) o0 the depositio&. 5e loo2ed at those last &i)htM a&d three o0 them3 'r.
!ei#e2e3 #he& he #as as2ed about3 had &o 0ou&datio& 0or them3 did&6t have a&y u&dersta&di&)
o0 the do%ume&ts3 a&d so #e do&6t thi&2 that his depositio& is a su00i%ie&t basis to move those
i&to evide&%e. .&d it6s my u&dersta&di&) 0rom spea2i&) #ith plai&ti00s6 %ou&sel that they thi&2
that at least some portio& o0 these three do%ume&ts is *udi%ially &oti%eable3 but that #ould be a
separate pro%ess a&d %ould be do&e at a separate time. 5e do&6t &eed to 0i)ure that out &o#
%o&%urre&t #ith the playi&) o0 the depositio&. .&d the do%ume&ts3 0or the re%ord...
Ju#$e% #hat #ould be *udi%ially &oti%eable-
Mr& anish% 7e%retary o0 7tate re%ord.
Mr& .o)le% do you have a& extra set #e %a& )ive to the *ud)e-
Ju#$e% +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate-
Mr& anish% yes.
Ms& Cahan% it6s a 20103 your ho&or... The 0irst3 #hi%h #as Exhibit 1 to 'r. !ei#e2e6s
depositio&3 is a 9ebruary 2010...
Ju#$e% 4 thi&2 4 remember this. He #as bei&) @uestio&ed as to %orporate status3 a&d...
Mr& anish% ri)ht. .&d he #as the +E, ,0 the %ompa&y3 a&d this is 0iled #ith the 7e%retary o0
7tate3 it6s a& admissio&3 a&d it6s...
Mr& .o)le% his &ame is o& it as a member o0 the... ,0 the !!+
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 *ust to be %lear 0or the re%ord3 this is a +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate
stateme&t o0 i&0ormatio& 0or .ED !ive3 !!+ He #as &ever the +E, ,0 that e&tity3 a&d he
did&6t have a 0ou&datio& to testi0y about it at his depositio&.
Ju#$e% that6s o2ay. 40 it6s *udi%ially &oti%eable3 4 thi&2 it %a& %ome i& #ith a&ybody at a&y time.
4 do&6t thi&2 it &eeds to %ome i&... 4t has &o importa&%e %omi&) i& at this time or a&y other time
duri&) the trial. 40 they #a&t to use it &o#3 that6s 0i&e.

Mr& .o)le% a&d to be %lear3 his &ame is o& it as o&e o0 three members o0 the !!+
Ju#$e% o2ay. $oes it have a stamp o& it3 thou)h-
Mr& .o)le% yes.
Ju#$e% li2e the 7e%retary o0 7tate stamp or somethi&)-
Mr& .o)le% yes3 C0iled3 7e%retary o0 7tate. C
Ju#$e% so that should ta2e %are o0 it.
Ms& Cahan% the se%o&d do%ume&t3 #hi%h is Exhibit G to 'r. !ei#e2e6s depositio&3 appears to be
a pri&tout o0 Exhibit... There6s &o date appare&t o& it that 4 %a& see. 4t6s a pri&tout o0 a& !. ..
Ki&)s sta00 dire%tory 0rom some 8H! 5ebsite. .t his depositio&3 he said that he did&6t have a&y
0ou&datio& to authe&ti%ate that3 a&d he said that he thou)ht there #as at least o&e mista2e i& this
do%ume&t3 so 4 do&6t thi&2 that6s appropriate.
Ju#$e% that6s &ot *udi%ially &oti%eable.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 to be %lear3 this is 0rom the !. .. Ki&)s #ebsiteM it6s the sta00 dire%tory
0or the !. .. Ki&)s. 'r. !ei#e2e #as the )over&or3 #hi%h mea&s the head perso& o0 the !. ..
Ki&)s.
Ju#$e% it may beM but i0 he does&6t #a&t to ide&ti0y it3 4 do&6t 2&o# #hat 4 %a& do 0or you o& that
0ro&t.
Mr& .o)le% o2ay. Dot it.
Ju#$e% so it6s &ot *udi%ially &oti%eable.
Mr& anish% #e %a& %all 'r. Trell to lay the 0ou&datio&.
Ju#$e% so &o *udi%ial &oti%e o& that o&e.
Mr& anish% #e #ere&6t sayi&) that these should be *udi%ial &oti%e. 5e6re &ot ta2i&) that
positio&. 5e6re ta2i&) the positio& that6s a& o00i%ial busi&ess re%ord o0 the !os .&)eles 2i&)s3
#hi%h is o#&ed by .ED. .&d #hi%h 'r. !ei#e2e #as a%ti&) as the )over&or or the head o0 at
the time.
Ju#$e% maybe. ?ut somebody has to lay a 0ou&datio& 0or the busi&ess re%ords a&y#ay3 so...
Ms& Cahan% that6s ri)ht3 your ho&or. .&d the third do%ume&t is Exhibit F to 'r. !ei#e2e6s
depositio&. .&d that appears to be a pri&tout 0rom the +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate #ebsite as o0
9riday3 ,%tober 1st3 20103 that )ives some busi&ess e&tity detail 0or .ED !ive3 !!+ There #as

&o 0ou&datio& laid #ith 'r. !ei#e2e. The plai&ti00s i&trodu%ed the do%ume&t to try to establish
some dates3 a&d he #as&6t able to pla%e a&ythi&) i& time based o& the do%ume&t3 a&d so it did&6t...
$id&6t re0resh his re%olle%tio&3 to my u&dersta&di&)3 a&d #as&6t somethi&) that he established as
)e&ui&e or... ,r releva&t to his testimo&y.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 yeah3 it6s a pri&tout 0rom the o00i%ial +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate
#ebsite that sho#s .ED !ives6 busi&ess e&tity &umber a&d address. .&d some#hat sho%2i&)ly3
'r. !ei#e2e #as&6t able to ide&ti0y a&ythi&) about thatM but 4 thi&2 it6s a busi&ess re%ord 0rom
the 7e%retary o0 7tate #ebsite.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Ms& Cahan% a&d the i&0ormatio& o0 the busi&ess e&tity &umber a&d the address is also prese&t o&
the o&e do%ume&t that you did a)ree is *udi%ially &oti%eable a&d is...
Ju#$e% 46m sorry. 7ay that a)ai&-
Ms& Cahan% the i&0ormatio& that 'r. ?oyle *ust ide&ti0ied as bei&) the perti&e&t i&0ormatio&
0rom this #eb<pa)e pri&tout... The e&tity &ame3 &umber a&d address is also i&0ormatio& that is
prese&t o& the o00i%ial 7e%retary o0 7tate do%ume&t that the %ourt is ta2i&) *udi%ial &oti%e o0. 4
do&6t 2&o# that this other do%ume&t that6s a #ebsite pri&tout that 'r. !ei#e2e did&6t have a
0ou&datio& to tal2 about adds a&ythi&) to the a&alysis.
Mr& .o)le% that6s true.
Ju#$e% 4 do&6t thi&2 4 %a& ta2e *udi%ial &oti%e o0 a #ebsite3 so 46m )oi&) to sustai& the ob*e%tio&.
?ut the do%ume&t that has the o00i%ial stamp3 #e6re o2ay o& that o&e.
Mr& .o)le% o2ay3 your ho&or.
Mr& anish% %a& 4 )o to the restroom real @ui%2-
Ju#$e% yes. ?ut #e %a& %o&ti&ue #ith ar)ume&t i0 you have a&ythi&) else.
Ms& Cahan% this mi)ht be a )ood time to address the issue #ith respe%t to 's. J#aramba6s
subpoe&a3 be%ause 4 thi&2 #e %a& do it @ui%2ly3 a&d i0 #e %a&6t do it @ui%2ly3 a&d it i&terrupts3
the& #e %a& address it a)ai& later. 5e #ere served yesterday #ith a purported &oti%e o0
videotaped depositio& a&d depositio& subpoe&a #ith do%ume&t re@uests 0or )ra%e J#aramba. .s
your ho&or may remember3 #e tal2ed about our exte&sive e00orts to try to )et a )ood address a&d
%o&ta%t i&0ormatio& 0or 's. J#aramba duri&) dis%overy a&d plai&ti00s6 late re@uest to add her to
their #it&ess list. /our ho&or said that should she be lo%ated3 that the parties #ould be able to
both ta2e a depositio& o0 her. 4t6s our u&dersta&di&) 0rom the press that 's. J#aramba has bee&
spe&di&) time #ith 'rs. Katheri&e 1a%2so& si&%e mid 1u&e at the latest3 a&d presumably
plai&ti00s 2&o# #hat she6s )oi&) to say a&d #hat do%ume&ts she has. ?ut separate a&d apart
0rom that3 #hat they6ve &o# do&e is to u&ilaterally set her depositio& 0or 1uly 2&d3 #hi%h is a

%ourt day3 a&d it6s less tha& te& days6 &oti%es. 5e do&6t ob*e%t to the idea o0 deposi&) her3 but the
timi&) a&d the #ay it6s bei&) ha&dled is sort o0 problemati% here.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o %a&6t #e #or2 to )et a date that6s...
Mr& .o)le% absolutely3 your ho&or. 7he has bee& lo%ated3 a&d #e )ot the depo... permissio& to
ta2e her depositio& 0rom her. 5e )ave a depo &oti%eM a&d so #e %a& #or2 #ith them o& the time3
date. That6s 0i&e. ?ut...
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o #hat are you loo2i&) 0or- 5hat6s your time 0rame- 40 the 2&d is &ot )ood3
#hat...
Ms& Cahan% the 2&d may be o2ay3 your ho&or. 7i&%e #e o&ly )et G= hours6 &oti%e o0 their
#it&esses3 #e do&6t 2&o# #hether the 2&d #ould pose a %o&0li%t 0or us or &ot. 5e do&6t 2&o# i0
maybe this %ould be do&e over a #ee2e&dM a&d espe%ially i& li)ht o0 the 0a%t that plai&ti00s have
&oti%ed her depositio& 0or 1uly 2&d a&d the& said they #ill rest their %ase sometime the #ee2 o0
1uly =3 that sort o0 %reates...
Ms& Cahan%... . time %ru&%h a&d it6s problemati%. 4 #ould hope #e %ould #or2 to)ether a&d
pi%2 a time maybe o& the #ee2e&d or a day #he& #e6re &ot i& %ourt3 maybe 1uly >th or
somethi&) li2e that.
Ju#$e% o& the holiday #ee2e&d- That may &ot be so )ood.
Ms& Cahan% #e have &o idea #hat her availability is. 4 assume plai&ti00s3 si&%e they se%ured her
%o&se&t to be deposed3 mi)ht have some idea o0 her s%hedule.
Mr& anish% ho# do you 2&o# #e se%ured her %o&se&t to be deposed-
Ms& Cahan% Kevi& *ust said so.
Mr& anish% 4 did&6t 2&o# that. 46m )lad 4 2&o# that.
Mr& .o)le% she se&t us a letter.
Mr& anish% 4 did&6t 2&o#.
Mr& .o)le% so 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 4 misspo2e3 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 it6s %o&se&t to be deposed3 but #e
0ou&d out #here she #as.
Ju#$e% %ooperatio& o0 some sort.
Mr& .o)le% yeah. .%tually3 the poi&t perso& o& our team #ho is deali&) #ith this issue is &ot i&
the room3 but #e %a& tal2 #ith them about 0i&di&) a suitable time a&d pla%e. That6s 0i&e.
Ju#$e% are you satis0ied #ith that-

Ms& Cahan% yes3 your ho&orM a&d i0 it is to be a %ourt day3 i0 #e %ould )et a little bit additio&al
&oti%e o0 #ho is )oi&) to be o& %all to testi0y that day so that #e %a& ma2e sure our team is
sta00ed appropriately so that #e %a& ha&dle both thi&)s3 that #ould be ideal.
Mr& anish% that seems reaso&able.
Mr& .o)le% &o problem.
Mr& anish% i& other #ords3 the attor&ey that is )oi&) to be doi&) the depo3 you do&6t #a&t them
to be a #it&ess they #ere supposed to ha&dle-
Ms& Cahan% ri)ht.
Mr& anish% u&0ortu&ately3 that6s #hat really happe&s i& the pra%ti%e o0 la#3 so...
Mr& .o)le% but #e %a& #or2 it out.
Mr& anish% #e6ll #or2 #ith you.
Mr& ut'an% tha&2 you.
Ju#$e% o2ay. Tha&2s.
Mr& anish% o2ay. 7o...
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o are you playi&) the depositio& o0 !ei#e2e 0irst-
Mr& anish% yes. /es3 your ho&or.
Mr& .o)le% yes3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% is there erratas-
Ms& Cahan% &o.
Mr& anish% so #e6ll stop a&d do that o&e Exhibit.
Ms& Cahan% #e did&6t ob*e%t to all o0 them.
Mr& anish% #e6ll do it at the e&d3 thou)h. ?ut #e %a& sho# it. 5e6ll sho# it #hile it6s )oi&)M
a&d at the e&d3 #e6ll move it i&. 4s that o2ay-
Ms& Cahan% that6s 0i&e.

Mr& anish% a&d there6s &o erratas3 %orre%t-
Ms& Cahan% that6s %orre%t.
Mr& anish% o2ay. !et6s )o.
////////Jurors enter the courtroo'
Mr& anish% your ho&or3 at this time3 #e6re )oi&) to play the depositio& o0 Tim !ei#e2e3 at the
time the +E, ,0 .ED
Ju#$e% o2ay. Tha&2 you. Hthe videotaped depositio& o0 Timothy !ei#e2e #as played. I
Mr& anish% #e mi)ht have a& issue.
Ju#$e% is your &ose bleedi&)- .lter&ate *uror &umber >: yes.
Ju#$e% #e6ll ta2e our 1><mi&ute brea2 &o#. H1F<mi&ute re%ess ta2e&. I
//////// Jurors re*enter the courtroo'
Ju#$e% 4 thi&2 #hat #e6re )oi&) to do is 0i&ish #ith this a&d the& let you )o home a&d the& #e6ll
stay here a&d do some #or2. ,2ay- 7o let6s %o&ti&ue. Hthe videotaped depositio& o0 Timothy
!ei#e2e #as played. I
Mr& anish% that6s it.
Mr& .o)le% that6s the e&d o0 the video3 your ho&orM a&d at this time3 #e #ould li2e to move i&to
evide&%e the %ertai& exhibits that #ere re0ere&%ed i& this testimo&y o0 'r. !ei#e2e. 7pe%i0i%ally
Exhibit 13 #hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<1M Exhibit :3 #hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<1FM Exhibit 1G3
#hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<2FM Exhibit 1F3 #hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<2=3 to FG:<30M Exhibit 2=3
#hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<32M Exhibit 1:3 #hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<333 throu)h FG:<3FM Exhibit
203 #hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<3;3 throu)h FG:<G0M a&d Exhibit 213 #hi%h is trial Exhibit FG:<G1.
Ms& Cahan% &o ob*e%tio&3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% those are re%eived. Hre%eived i&to evide&%e3 exhibits FG:<13 FG:<1F3 FG:<2F3 FG:<2= to
FG:<303 FG:<323 FG:<33 to FG:<3F3 FG:<3; to FG:<G03 FG:<G1M do%ume&ts. I
Ju#$e% a&d that6s it 0or the depo playi&) today-

Mr& .o)le% yes3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 46m )oi&) to let you )o early. 4 #a&t you to retur& tomorro# at ::G>. ,2ay- Have
a )ood eve&i&).
/////////// Juror0s leave the Courtroo'
Ju#$e% o2ay. $id you #a&t to tal2 about that...
Ms& Cahan% yes3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e%... 9i&2elstei&-
Ms& Cahan% yes. 5here #e le0t thi&)s last time3 as you may remember3 is that there #ere at
least 0our ex%erpts...
Mr& anish% #e #a&t to )et our stu00 o& 9i&2elstei&. 4t6s ba%2 there.
Ju#$e% oh. ,2ay.
Ms& Cahan% #hile he6s doi&) that3 your ho&or3 *ust to )ive the %o&text3 #he& #e #ere here last
time3 #e #ere tal2i&) about 0our ex%erpts 0rom the depositio& o0 $r. 9i&2elstei& #here he tal2ed
about thi&)s that $r. 9ore%ast had told him. .&d3 a)ai&3 #e... Plai&ti00s6 positio&... .&d 4 do&6t
#a&t toK 46ll paraphrase. 4 thi&2 it6s a 0air stateme&t... 4s that it6s either &ot hearsay or a&
ex%eptio& to hearsay be%ause o0 $r. 9ore%ast6s status as a do%tor #ho treated 'i%hael 1a%2so&
a&d the 0a%t that $r. 9i&2elstei& also treated 'r. 1a%2so&. $e0e&da&ts are ta2i&) the positio& that
$r. 9i&2elstei& treated 'r. 1a%2so& o& t#o u&i@ue o%%asio&s3 he #as &ot his treati&) physi%ia&3
o&%e i& ?a&)2o2 be0ore $r. 9ore%ast had arrived or had a&y parti%ipatio& #ith the tour3 a&d the&
a)ai& a&other time 0or a& ur)e&t pai& issue i& 'exi%o +ity at a time #he& $r. 9ore%ast #as &ot
i& to#&. 7ome o0 the stateme&ts may )o to $r. 9ore%ast6s u&dersta&di&) o0 'r. 1a%2so&6s
medi%al %o&ditio&3 or #hat $r. 9ore%ast pla&s to do i& treati&) 'r. 1a%2so&. ?ut &o&e o0 the
stateme&ts3 i& our vie#3 )o to $r. 9i&2elstei&6s u&dersta&di&) o0 'i%hael relati&) to his... The
t#o isolated times #he& he treated 'i%hael3 a&d moreover3 $r. .. you had as2ed us to loo2 i&to
#hether there6s some %at%hall ex%eptio& i& +ali0or&ia la# similar to the 0ederal sta&dard pursua&t
to #hi%h there mi)ht be some basis 0or 0i&di&) a hearsay ex%eptio&. .&d #e did loo2 i&to that3
a&d there is &o su%h basis i& the la# i& +ali0or&ia. .&d3 i& additio&3 there are &ot the i&di%ia here
that #ould allo# a& appellate %ourt3 #hi%h %a& %reate hearsay ex%eptio&s 0or thi&)s li2e mi&or
%hildre& #ho have bee& vi%tims o0 sexual abuse... There6s some spe%i0i% %ir%umsta&%es #here
that6s happe&ed at the appellate level3 but there6s &o basis 0or reliability or other#ise to violate the
)e&eral presumptio&s o0 hearsay here. .&d #e did dis%uss ba%2 a&d 0orth the %ase la# that exists
o& this3 a&d #e #ere&6t able to resolve it.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 4 #ill try to be as brie0 as possible. ,ur 0irst positio& o& this3 that these
stateme&ts are &ot hearsay at all. This testimo&y %o&%er&s o&ly $r. 9i&2elstei&6s u&dersta&di&)

o0 the medi%al %o&ditio& o0 'i%hael 1a%2so&3 so they6re &ot bei&) o00ered 0or the truth o0 the
matter asserted3 but 0or $r. 9i&2elstei&6s u&dersta&di&) o0 that. .&d it #as a %o&versatio&
bet#ee& t#o treati&) physi%ia&s. 7o 4 #ill %ite 0or that Ju0o v. 7impso&3 =F %al. .pp. Gth >;33
>:13 >:23 a&d the Jutter )uide o& %ivil trials a&d evide&%e3 %hapter = d. ?. .&d the hearsay rule
is simply &ot impli%ated #he& the issue is #hether %ertai& thi&)s are said or do&e a&d they have
i&depe&de&t le)al si)&i0i%a&%e3 #hi%h #e thi&2 is the %ase here3 people v smith3 1;: %al. .pp. Gth
:=F. 8o#3 #e also thi&2 i0 the %ourt is i&%li&ed to thi&2 these $r. 9ore%ast stateme&ts are
hearsay3 there are some ex%eptio&s. 9irst there is evide&%e %ode =013 #here $r. 9i&2elstei& is a
&o&<retai&ed expert i& this %ase by both parties. He happe&ed to be a treati&) physi%ia& at the
time3 but... ?ut subse@ue&tly he #as desi)&ated as &o&<retai&ed by both parties. .&d the la# is
@uite %lear that3 li2e a&y other expert3 a treati&) physi%ia&3 parti%ularly #he& they6re &o&<
retai&ed3 may provide both 0a%t a&d opi&io& testimo&y3 i&%ludi&) testimo&y i& the %ause. 5hat6s
happe&i&)3 $r. 9i&2elstei& is e&titled as a &o&<retai&ed expert to rely o& reliable hearsay3
i&%ludi&) the stateme&ts o0 other treati&) pro0essio&als3 i& 0ormi&) his opi&io& %o&%er&i&) a
patie&t6s physi%al state u&der =01HbI. .&d the %ase there is people v. +ampos3 32 %al. .pp. Gth
30G3 pa)es 30; to 30=.
Ju#$e% %ould you repeat that3 the pri&%iple-
Mr& .o)le% $r. 9i&2elstei& is e&titled to rely o& reliable hearsay3 i&%ludi&) the stateme&ts o0
other treati&) pro0essio&als3 i& 0ormi&) his opi&io& %o&%er&i&) a patie&t6s physi%al state u&der
evide&%e %ode =01HbI. .&d the& the %ase #ould be people v. +ampos3 32 %al. .pp. Gth 30G3
30;3 30=. .&d the& 4 #ill s2ip 0or &o# t#o other %ases o& that. 4 %a& %ite them to the %ourt i0 4
&eed to later. ?ut the& as 0ar as the hearsay %at%hall3 #e believe that i& the %ase i& re +i&dy l. 3
1; %al. Gth 1>3 pa)e 2=3 +ali0or&ia re%o)&iAes that %ourts %reate hearsay ex%eptio&s 0or hearsay
testimo&y provided there is a substa&tial &eed 0or the evide&%e a&d it3 @uote3 possesses a&
i&tri&si% reliability that e&abled them to surmou&t %o&stitutio&al a&d our other ob*e%tio&s that
)e&erally apply to hearsay evide&%e3 e&d @uote. Here3 the substa&tial &eed is that $r. 9ore%ast is
out o0 the %ou&try3 a&d both... .s the %ourt is probably #ell a#are3 both parties i& this %ase
deposed virtually every si&)le possible perso& that %ould be 0ou&d i& the #orld. 4 do&6t #a&t to
)uess3 but 46m assumi&) there6s arou&d 100 depositio&s ta2e& i& the %ase. 8obody #as able to
lo%ate $r. 9ore%ast3 or )et his depositio&. He6s beyo&d the subpoe&a po#er o0 the %ourt. .&d
the& part t#o o0 that i& re +i&dy l. .&alysis is that the stateme&t possesses a& i&tri&si%
reliability3 #hi%h is the la&)ua)e used i& the %ase3 be%ause it6s bet#ee& t#o medi%al providers
#ho #ere both e&)a)ed i& treati&) 'i%hael 1a%2so&3 so there6s &o reaso& to thi&2 that the
stateme&ts o0 $r. 9ore%ast #ould be u&reliable.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 may 4 address ea%h o0 those theories- 7o #ith respe%t to the 0irst3 #hi%h
is the positio& that this is &ot hearsay be%ause it6s bei&) used 0or the e00e%t o& $r. 9i&2elstei& i&
his treatme&t o0 'r. 1a%2so&3 $r. 9i&2elstei&3 a)ai&3 treated 'r. 1a%2so& o&%e be0ore he ever met
$r. 9ore%astM a&d a se%o&d time #he& $r. 9ore%ast #as out o0 to#& a&d u&available he )ave him
a si&)le i&*e%tio& 0or a& ur)e&t pai& issue. He did&6t testi0y that a&y o0 his %o&versatio&s #ith $r.
9ore%ast i&0ormed that se%o&d i&sta&%e o0 medi%al %are3 a&d it6s &ot possible that they %ould have
i&0ormed the 0irst i&sta&%e. .&d moreover3 Ju0o v. 7impso&3 #hi%h is... 4&volves the death o0
8i%ole ?ro#& 7impso&3 is i&apposite3 i& our vie#. The Ju0o %ase holds that stateme&ts made by
a hearsay spea2er are admissible to sho# the spea2er6s state o0 mi&d3 &ot the impa%t o& the

perso& #ho hears the spea2er6s stateme&t. .&d there it #as a %ase o0 domesti% abuse a&d3 you
2&o#3 pote&tial 0ear3 state o0 mi&d i& terms o0 's. 7impso&6s 0ear a&d her %o&du%t.
Ju#$e% so that #as a stateme&t that 's. 8i%ole 7impso& made or ,.1. 7impso& made-
Ms& Cahan% &o. That #as a stateme&t that 's. 8i%ole bro#& 7impso& made. 4t #as a%tually
&otes that she made a&d pho&e %alls that she made to shelters tal2i&) about her 0ear o0 'r. ,. 1.
7impso&. .&d she said there... The %ourt 0ou&d there that it #as admissible to sho# 's.
7impso&6s state o0 mi&d3 but &ot to prove #hat she had said. .&d there3 you 2&o#3 i0 #e #ere to
try to a&alo)iAe that to this situatio&3 the stateme&ts %ould pote&tially be admissible to sho# #hat
$r. 9ore%ast thou)ht a&d u&derstood at the time3 but they6re &ot &o&<hearsay 0or purposes o0 $r.
9i&2elstei&. .&d3 i& additio&3 your ho&or... .&d this is &ot somethi&) #e had a %ha&%e to
dis%uss last time... 7ome o0 the stateme&ts are $r. 9i&2elstei& sayi&) #hat $r. 9ore%ast thou)ht3
but the& there #ere also... There6s at least o&e stateme&t that6s $r. 9i&2elstei& sayi&) #hat $r.
9ore%ast had... 5as assumi&) or observi&) based o& the prese&%e o0 other physi%ia&s #ho %ame
i& to visit 'r. 1a%2so&. .&d so it #as&6t really... 4t6s a& assumptio& o0 $r. 9ore%ast6s that $r.
9ore%ast relates to $r. 9i&2elstei&3 a&d the& $r. 9i&2elstei& is relati&) it i& a depositio& 20 years
later. 7o #e thi&2 it6s &ot hearsay a&d that Ju0o v. 7impso& does&6t apply. 5ith respe%t to the
hearsay ex%eptio& u&der =013 be%ause he6s a &o&<retai&ed expert3 there3 'r. ?oyle re0erred to the
people v. +ampos %ase.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 *ust 0or... 8ever mi&d.
Ms& Cahan% 46m sorry. People v. +ampos says3 at 30=3 Ca& expert #it&ess may &ot3 o& dire%t
exami&atio&3 reveal the %o&te&ts o0 reports prepared or opi&io&s expressed by &o&<testi0yi&)
experts. The reaso& 0or this is obvious. The opportu&ity o0 %ross<exami&i&) the other do%tor6s as
to the basis 0or their opi&io&3 et%.3 is de&ied the party as to #hom the testimo&y is adverse. C a&d
the& later o&3 at the same pa)e3 it says Cdo%tors %a& testi0y as to the basis o0 their opi&io&3 but this
is &ot i&te&ded to be a %ha&&el by #hi%h testi0yi&) do%tors %a& pla%e the opi&io& o0 i&&umerable
out<o0<%ourt do%tors be0ore the *ury. C a&d importa&tly3 as #ell3 here3 your ho&or3 i0 the ex%eptio&
#ere to other#ise be appli%able3 #hi%h it is &ot here3 i& our vie#3 it #ould still &eed to be about a
matter that6s material to the %ase a&d &ot a ta&)e&tial issue3 #hi%h #e believe this is. 5hat $r.
9i&2elstei&... 9i&2elstei& said $r. 9ore%ast thou)ht about other do%tors #ho #ere %omi&) to
visit 'r. 1a%2so&3 or his per%eptio&s o0 'r. 1a%2so&6s health #he& 'r. 1a%2so& himsel0 #e&t to
rehab a&d publi%ly said that at the e&d o0 the tour is really 0ar a0ield. .&d the& to *ust address the
%at%hall %o&%ept...
Ju#$e% this is o& the tour that #as termi&ated early-
Ms& Cahan% %orre%t. 4t6s the tour that e&ded i& 'exi%o +ity #ith 'r. 1a%2so& )oi&) to rehab 0or
bei&)...
Mr& anish% 'r. Do&)a#are #as o&.
Mr& .o)le% a&d termi&ated3 i& part3 due to the a%tio&s o0 $r. 9i&2elstei&.

Ms& Cahan% a&d3 your ho&or3 there6s &o 0ou&datio& to that stateme&t.
Mr& .o)le%... Testi0y to that.
Ms& Cahan% #ith respe%t to the %at%hall idea3 0irst o0 all3 4 CDoo)ledC $r. 9ore%ast. 4 have his
%urre&t o00i%e address i& !o&do&. He is someo&e #ho %ould have bee& pursued i& dis%overy a&d
#as &ot. His address a&d %o&ta%t i&0ormatio& is as%ertai&able3 he6s a pra%ti%i&) physi%ia& i&
!o&do&. .&d #ith respe%t to the i& re +i&dy l. +ase3 that6s a%tually #hat 4 #as dis%ussi&) at the
be)i&&i&) #ith respe%t to the appellate %ourts havi&) the ability to %reate a hearsay... 8e#
hearsay ex%eptio&s #here there are i&di%ia o0 reliability i& %ertai& spe%ial %ir%umsta&%es. .&d i&
re +i&dy l. 3 the +ali0or&ia supreme %ourt 0ou&d there #as a substa&tial &eed to admit limited
hearsay evide&%e i& %ases #here the hearsay stateme&ts #ere made by %hild sexual abuse vi%tims
i& disputes over pare&tal ri)hts be%ause that6s a pretty u&i@ue situatio& a&d there6s3 obviously3
%o&%er&s there about the 0ra)ility o0 the vi%tims i&volved. .&d the %ourt a%tually3 i& that %ase3
a&d at 1; %al. Gth 1>3 at 2=... 4t6s a 1::; %ase... Tal2ed about the reaso&s #hy a& ex%eptio& #as
appropriate there3 sayi&)3 @uote3 there are parti%ular di00i%ulties #ith provi&) %hild sexual abuseM
the 0re@ue&t la%2 o0 physi%al evide&%e3 the limited verbal a&d %o)&itive a%ts o0 %hild vi%tims3 the
0a%t that the %hildre& are o0te& u&able or u&#illi&) to a%t as #it&esses be%ause o0 the i&timidatio&
o0 the %ourtroom setti&)3 a&d the relu%ta&%e to testi0y a)ai&st their pare&ts. .&d the %ourt added
some additio&al sa0e)uards3 as #ell3 be0ore eve& allo#i&) that &e# %ate)ory o0 hearsay there3
a&d that... Those sa0e)uards i&%luded that there must be i&di%ia o0 reliability3 availability 0or
%ross<exami&atio& or %orroborative evide&%e o0 %hild sexual abuse3 a&d adva&%e &oti%e o0 i&te&t
to i&trodu%e hearsay evide&%e. .&d so 4 thi&2 it6s @uite %lear that i& re +i&dy l. 4s &ot appli%able
to this 2i&d o0 situatio&M a&d to the exte&t that there is a *udi%ial ability to %reate &e# limited
hearsay ex%eptio&s3 that6s somethi&) that happe&s at the appellate level i& u&i@ue %ir%umsta&%esM
a&d here parti%ularly3 be%ause $r. 9ore%ast is alive3 %ould have bee& deposed...
Ju#$e% #he& you say it happe&s at the appellate level3 it has to happe& at the trial 0irst be0ore it
)ets to the appellate level. ?ut 4 )et your poi&t.
Ms& Cahan% ri)ht3 your ho&or. .&d the la&)ua)e that 4 #as re0erri&) to there is at pa)e 2> o0 the
opi&io&3 re0ere&%es the 0a%t that appellate %ourts do have the po#er to %reate &e# ex%eptio&s to
the hearsay rule &ot 0ou&d i& the evide&%e %ode. .&d3 obviously3 the trial %ourt #ould have to
0irst 0i&d that appropriate there3 but it6s &ot... 4t #ould be reversible error other#ise to...
Ju#$e% #hat they6re sayi&) is that the le)islature...
Ms& Cahan% ri)ht. 4t %ould be do&e le)islatively or the appellate %ourts %ould 0i&d that there #as
a su00i%ie&t reaso&. .&d here3 there6s *ust %learly &ot that su00i%ie&t reaso&3 either based o& the
%ir%umsta&%es or based o& other#ise bei&) u&able to )et $r. 9ore%ast6s testimo&y.
Mr& .o)le% 0irst3 %a& #e ide&ti0y spe%i0i%ally pa)e3 li&es... ?e%ause3 your ho&or3 this is all i& the
%o&text that your ho&or already ruled that these stateme&ts %a& be played3 a&d they6re &o# tryi&)
to )et your ho&or to %ha&)e the %ourt6s ruli&)3 #hi%h is 0i&e3 but 46m &ot exa%tly sure #hi%h exa%t
pa)e/li&es #e6re %halle&)i&) at this poi&t. 'aybe #e %a& put it i& %o&text

Ms& Cahan% sure. 4 %a& read them @ui%2ly3 be%ause they6re all short. The 0irst is pa)e ;03 li&es 3
to 11 Hreadi&)I:
+. &o based on your communication with Dr. ,orecast, did you have an understanding that
Mr. -ackson was receiving the pain medication on a consistent basis for the three and a half
months between bangkok and me%ico city? )nd then I ob.ected, Mr. /oyle said, "you can
answer," and he said yes. 0age...
Mr& .o)le% %a& #e ar)ue that o&e- 4 mea&3 that seems li2e they6re t#o physi%ia&s
%ommu&i%ati&) about the treatme&t o0 'i%hael 1a%2so&. That seems to be %lear =01 evide&%e
%ode3 ma2es it a& ex%eptio& to hearsay. .&d i0 it6s hearsay at all. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 it6s eve&
hearsay at all. 4t6s his u&dersta&di&) o0 #hat #as )oi&) o& duri&) the treatme&t o0 'i%hael
1a%2so&3 a&d it supports his a%tio&s later 0or termi&ati&) the tour.
Ju#$e% %a& 4 as2 you #hy is it i0 this... .t the e&d o0 the tour3 'i%hael 1a%2so& %ame out
publi%ly a&d admitted that he had a dru) problem3 #hy are #e )oi&) throu)h this exer%ise #ith
9i&2elstei&- 4s there somethi&) i& parti%ular that is bei&) o00ered... 46m *ust %urious.
Mr& anish% yes. 'r. Do&)a#are de&ies that he had a&y 2&o#led)e #hatsoever that it o%%urred3
a&d it6s dire%t impea%hme&t o0 'r. Do&)a#are #ho #as o& the tour a&d his 2&o#led)e. .&d he
said i& his testimo&y that he &ever 2&e# a&ythi&) duri&) the tour u&til the tour #as lo&) over a&d
the& they put up that stateme&t that 'i%hael 1a%2so& made3 a&d he mira%ulously remembered3
Coh3 4 sa# that o& T. E. 3 a&d that6s ho# 4 2&e#. C so it )oes to dire%tly impea%h him as to &oti%e
o0 him a&d .ED as o0 'i%hael 1a%2so&6s %o&ditio&.
Ju#$e% my re%olle%tio& #as duri&) the depositio&3 that $r. 9i&2elstei& said that he did tell him3
so #hy all this other stu00-
Mr& .o)le% to sho# the exte&t o0 the issue. 4 mea&3 #e6re tal2i&) about $r. 9ore%ast brea2i&)
i&to $r. 9i&2elstei&6s ba) to )et stu00 0or 'i%hael3 a&d they #ere dis%ussi&) the %o&ditio&
throu)hout the tour. 4 mea&3 ri)ht there... That6s a )reat example. C@uestio&. . . C
Ju#$e% #ell3 did he dis%uss that #ith Paul Do&)a#are- 4 do&6t thi&2 there6s a&ythi&) about...
Mr& .o)le% he testi0ied that he tal2ed to 'r. Do&)a#are every si&)le day a&d told him
everythi&)3 esse&tially.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 that6s &ot the %ase.
Mr& ut'an% that is #hy they #a&t this i&3 your ho&or.
Mr& anish% 'r. Do&)a#are... Jemember3 'r. Do&)a#are6s brother... 'r. Do&)a#are #or2ed
#ith $r. 9i&2elstei&6s brother 0or ma&y years be0ore a&y o0 this o%%urredM a&d the reaso& that $r.
9i&2elstei& #as o& the tour #as be%ause o0 'r. Do&)a#are bri&)i&) him. 7o they have this
relatio&ship or3 %ertai&ly a reaso&able i&0ere&%e i0 you6re tal2i&) to him every day a&d you6re the
do%tor3 you6re )oi&) to tell him #hat6s )oi&) o&3 as he says he did. .&d this is more

%orroboratio& o0 his stateme&t that he told 'r. Do&)a#are3 a&d this sho#s 0urther evide&%e to
%orroborate. 8o#3 they6re )oi&) to %ome i& a&d atta%2 him a&d say he did&6t tell 'r. Do&)a#are3
a&d that... .&d so i0 they #a&t to stipulate that 'r. Do&)a#are #as a#are o0 this3 #hi%h they6re
&ot )oi&) to do be%ause he6s de&ied it... This is 0urther %orroboratio& o0 #hat $r. 9i&2elstei&
says that he told 'r. Do&)a#are3 his 0rie&d.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 there are a %ouple o0 problems #ith #hat #as *ust represe&ted there.
9irst3 &o&e o0 this testimo&y... There6s &o testimo&y 0rom a&yo&e at a&y poi&t that says $r.
9i&2elstei& told Paul Do&)a#are #hat $r. 9ore%ast had told him or #hat $r. 9ore%ast thou)ht.
The testimo&y 0rom $r. 9i&2elstei& is3
"I got to /angkok, I treated Michael once, I had some concerns about his health status and
whether he might have a dependency problem based on what I witnessed in that 123hour period.
"I e%pressed that to a group of tour promoters, I dont remember whether Mr. 4ongaware was
one of the people in the room. I then proceeded to spend the three and a half months on tour in
the b tour group. "
7o there6s the a )roup... That6s the artist a&d his e&toura)e... The b3 #hi%h is the ba&dM the %3
#hi%h is the %re#. .&d so $r. 9i&2elstei& #as retai&ed as the do%tor 0or the 1F0 people #ho
#ere o& the tour #ho #ere &ot 'r. 1a%2so&3 a&d that6s the )roup o0 people he #as ha&)i&) out
#ith. He said he did spea2 #ith 'r. Do&)a#are 0re@ue&tly3 but he de&ied spea2i&) to him about
'r. 1a%2so& or his medi%al %are3 he de&ied havi&) a&y i&tera%tio& #ith 'r. 1a%2so& re)ardi&) his
medi%al %are3 other tha& at the very e&d o0 the tour i& 'exi%o %ity. .&d his testimo&y #ith
respe%t to that is there #as some de%isio& made by somebody to do sort o0 a& i&terve&tio& #ith
'r. 1a%2so&3 EliAabeth Taylor #as %alled3 she 0le# i&3 a&d the& 'r. 1a%2so& #as se&t o00 to
rehabilitatio&. He made the a&&ou&%eme&t about it3 a&d $r. 9i&2elstei& )ot o& a pla&e a&d #e&t
home a&d #as&6t i&volved i& the i&tri%a%ies o0 that pro%ess. .&d so this improper i&0ere&%e that
they6re tryi&) to dra#... 4t6s improper that they6re tryi&) to dra# a& i&0ere&%e that there #ere
these %o&sta&t %o&versatio&s bet#ee& $r. 9i&2elstei& a&d 'r. Do&)a#are about 'r. 1a%2so&6s
health3 a&d that6s &ot supported by the re%ord. ?ut eve& setti&) that aside3 they6re the& tryi&) to
%ompou&d that by addi&) i& there6s this other do%tor #ho Kare& 9aye is )oi&) to say )rabbed her
by the throat a&d %ho2ed her out...
Ju#$e% ri)ht.
Ms& Cahan%... .&d is this3 you 2&o#3 mysterious perso& #ho appears o& the tour3 &obody
2&o#s exa%tly #hat 2i&d o0 do%tor he is. They 2eep tryi&) to say he6s a& a&esthesiolo)ist3 a&d
that6s &ot %o&siste&t #ith my u&dersta&di&)3 but #e have&6t heard a&y #it&ess testimo&y o& that.
?ut this do%tor sho#s up a&d is treati&) 'i%hael. They6re tryi&) to say he6s a& a&esthesiolo)ist3
they6re tryi&) to say Kare& 9aye is sayi&) he physi%ally atta%2ed her3 a&d to the& %reate this idea
that $r. 9ore%ast a&d 'r... ..&d $r. 9i&2elstei& #ere #or2i&) i& %o&%ert a&d havi&) these
%la&desti&e %o&versatio&s about 'r. 1a%2so&6s health%are that the& $r. 9i&2elstei& #as relayi&)
to 'r. Do&)a#are is *ust &ot supported by the re%ord3 a&d it6s )oi&) to be pre*udi%ial3 a&d it6s... 4
still have&6t heard #hat 4 believe to be a valid hearsay ex%eptio& or exemptio&.

Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 4 mea&3 the poi&t is at the... .t the e&d o0 the tour3 or the premature e&d
o0 the tour i& 'exi%o %ity3 $r. 9i&2elstei& testi0ied that he tal2ed to the ma&a)eme&t people3
#hi%h he admitted #ould have i&%luded Paul Do&)a#are3 a&d told them that he thou)ht that
'i%hael had a problem #ith opiates. .&d these $r. 9ore%ast stateme&ts are part o0 his
2&o#led)e that led to him telli&) the people that3 a&d the& the sho# #as %a&%elled a&d there #as
a& i&terve&tio&. 7o that6s #hy 46ve bee& tryi&) to say i&itially &o&e o0 it is hearsayM a&d i0 it is
hearsay3 it6s part o0 t#o treati&) physi%ia&s tal2i&) about the treatme&t o0 a patie&t. ?ut the& it
ultimately led to him telli&) at the e&d this... This story. 4 mea& they6re tryi&) to mi&imiAe the
i&volveme&t...
Ju#$e% #hat you6re sayi&) is that 9i&2elstei& says that he told the tour ma&a)ers at the e&d o0 the
tour3 rou)hly3 about the time 1a%2so& admitted the problem-
Mr& .o)le% that he told 'r. Do&)a#are...
Ju#$e% that he had a dru) problem-
Mr& .o)le%... Earlier a&d the& told everybody else at the e&d based o& all the 2&o#led)e that he
)ot 0rom 0ore%ast3 as #ell as his o#& perso&al 2&o#led)e3 &ot *ust o&e treatme&t.
Ju#$e% #hat is the 9i&2elstei& stateme&t- He said3 "I told 4ongaware, I told the tour promoters,
I told. . . " at #hat poi&t did he tell them-
Mr& .o)le% Hreadi&)I:
+. )nd did you speak to Mr. 4ongaware about what was going on with Mr. -ackson in Me%ico
City? ). I have no independent recollection, but I... If you want me to speculate, I would
speculate yes. 5ell, did you speak to Mr. 4ongaware a lot on this tour? ). #es my friend.
'kay. +. 'kay. Did you talk to him every day, pretty much, on the tour? ). 6es. +. )nd
would you talk to him about what was going on with the artist? ). 6es. +. &o its a fair
assumption that you would have told Mr. 4ongaware what was going on with Mr. -acksons
opiate problems on the tour? ). 6es.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o...
Ms& Cahan% it #as %lear that he #as spe%ulati&) there3 a&d he said he had &o i&depe&de&t
re%olle%tio& o0 the %o&versatio&s 0rom 20 years a)o.
Ju#$e% a&d #hat #as my ruli&) o& that-
Mr& .o)le% that6s i&.
Ju#$e% o2ay. That6s all you &eed. 5hat... ,2ay. 5hat you6re tryi&) to do is support that #ith
all this other stu003 a&d 4 u&dersta&d #hy you6d #a&t to do it3 but...
Mr& anish% but they6re ar)ui&)...

Ju#$e%... 4t6s hearsay.
Mr& anish%... 4t6s spe%ulative. /ou %a& hear them ar)ui&) it3 a&d it6s 0urther %orroborative
evide&%e.
Ju#$e% #ell3 4 overruled their ob*e%tio&.
Mr& anish% that #as&6t their ob*e%tio&3 hearsay.
Mr& .o)le% *ust 0or the re%ord3 your ho&or3 let me add o&e more importa&t thi&) i& the
depositio&.
Ju#$e% the problem is that6s at the e&d o0 the tour3 a&d that6s #hy you #a&t to )et i& all this other
stu00.
Mr& .o)le% &o. ?e%ause ?a&)2o2 #as the be)i&&i&). They6re tryi&) to ma2e it sou&d li2e it #as
*ust ?a&)2o2 a&d the& the e&d. ,ur poi&t is it #as 0or three a&d a hal0 mo&ths. !et me read o&e
other @uote 0or the re%ord. Pa)e >G3 li&e 3 Hreadi&)I:
+. 'kay. 5ell, did you inform Mr. 4ongaware of the situation with the artist? ). 6es, sir.
+. )nd what did you tell Mr. 4ongaware in regard to the situation with the artist? ). I said,
7uote, I think were going to have a problem, end 7uote. +. )nd did you elaborate on that? ).
I dont... Im going to say yes, but I wouldnt know e%actly what I said, or... +. 5ell, did you
tell Mr. 4ongaware you thought that Mr. -ackson had a dependency on opiates? ). 6es. +.
)nd what did Mr. 4ongaware say to you? ). #e said dont be a doctor nick. *hats...
Ju#$e% o2ay. There #ere ob*e%tio&s3 a&d 4 overruled them3 ri)ht-
Ms& Cahan% 4 do&6t 2&o# #hether #e ob*e%ted to that. That #as i& ?a&)2o2 be0ore $r. 9ore%ast
eve& arrived o& the tourM a&d so3 as 4 thi&2 your ho&or has ruled %orre%tly3 those are3 you 2&o#...
That6s $r. 9i&2elstei&6s opi&io& based o& #hat he observed a&d his treatme&t o0 'r. 1a%2so&3
a&d that6s 0air )ame3 a&d #e do&6t %o&test that.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 5ell...
Mr& .o)le% 46m tryi&) to %ou&ter the 0a%t that they *ust made the represe&tatio& that there #as &o
evide&%e that 9i&2elstei& told Do&)a#are a&ythi&)3 but 4 *ust read that he did.
Ms& Cahan% #ell3 #e6re tal2i&) about #ith $r. .. .
Ju#$e% 0ore%ast told 9i&2elstei&.
Ms& Cahan% ri)ht.
Mr& .o)le% %ould #e have the pa)e a&d li&e o0 the other o&es-

Ms& Cahan% yes. 7o the 0our are pa)e ;03 li&es 3 to 11M pa)e 12:3 li&es 3 to ;. 4t6s ri)ht here.
Pa)e 12:3 li&e 233 to pa)e 1303 li&e >M a&d pa)e 13F3 li&e 2G3 to pa)e 13;3 li&e =.
Mr& .o)le% o2ay. Here6s the problem3 your ho&or. +a& #e )o 0irst to 12:<23 throu)h 13>-
Ju#$e% 4 mea&3 i& the problem o0... 4 mea&3 i& the abse&%e o0 somethi&) that dire%tly addresses
this issue3 46m &ot i&%li&ed to allo# it i&.
Mr& .o)le% here6s #hat 4 #as )oi&) to poi&t out.
Ju#$e% you 2&o#3 perhaps i& the 0ederal system there6s a little more lee#ay #ith these reliability
stateme&ts. 4t seems to me stateme&ts bet#ee& physi%ia&s %o&%er&i&) treatme&t is somethi&)
that #ould be i&here&tly reliable. ?ut i0 the appellate %ourts have limited the reliability 0or these
types o0 stateme&ts to %ome i& i& %hild molestatio& %ases3 u&der3 you 2&o#3 %ertai&
%ir%umsta&%es3 this *ust does&6t 0it.
Mr& .o)le% 4 u&dersta&d the %ourt6s ruli&)3 a&d 4 respe%t itM but 4 thi&2 there6s a problem #ith
#hat they6re tryi&) to 2eep out. 9or example3 at 12:3 li&e... This is part o0 the se%tio& that she
*ust read that they #a&t to 2eep out3 a&d maybe it6s a mista2e. ?ut there6s a @uestio&... The
@uestio& is Hreadi&)I:
+. 5hat physicians visited on tour? Do you remember any of their names. *his is me asking
Dr. ,inkelstein 8reading9: ). )rnie (lein and #oefflin, I believe it was. I believe it might have
been &teve #oefflin. +. Do you remember when on the tours they visited? *hats not a
,inkelstein;forecast communication.
Ju#$e% #hat6s #ro&) #ith that stateme&t-
Ms& Cahan% that6s &ot part o0 #hat #e6re tryi&) to ex%lude.
Mr& .o)le% but it is.
Ms& Cahan% &o. 12:3 li&e 3 to ;3 a&d the& 12:3 li&e 233 to pa)e 1303 li&e >.
Mr& .o)le% oh3 that6s &ot part o0 it.
Ms& Cahan% &o. 5e #ere o2ay #ith that.
Mr& .o)le% oh3 46m sorry. That6s 0i&e. Dood deal.
Ms& Cahan% = to 22 o& that pa)e3 #e are &ot tal2i&) about today.
Mr& .o)le% very )ood. ,2ay. .ll ri)ht. 5hat are you )oi&) to do- 4 #o& that o&e.
Ms& Cahan% #e #ere&6t 0i)hti&) about that o&e.

Mr& .o)le% 4 2&o#3 but 4 )ot somethi&).
Mr& anish% hey3 at least you #o&.
Ju#$e% is there a&ythi&) else-
Mr& anish% 4 *ust #a&t to u&dersta&d... 4 thi&2 this is #hat you ruled. 40 #e play this
depositio&3 #e %a&6t %all him liveM is that ri)ht-
Ms& Cahan% yes.
Ju#$e% did 4 rule that-
Ms& Cahan% yes.
Mr& anish% 4 do&6t 2&o#. There #as a dis%ussio& about $r. Earley3 4 thi&23 i& that re)ard.
Ju#$e% 4 thou)ht there #as some dis%ussio& %o&%er&i&) all o0 them3 but #e #ere )oi&) to do a
pro%edure3 4 thi&2- 4s that #hat #e dis%ussed3 so that... That #as my re%olle%tio&. 40 you did it
this #ay3 #e #ere all )oi&) to sti%2 to that pro)ram.
Mr& .o)le% you #ere lea&i&) that #ay. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 you ever ruled it. ?e%ause the di00ere&%e
here3 this )uy #as3 you 2&o#... 4s&6t a& employee3 li2e a retai&ed... 4 mea&3 ar)uably3 #e #ould
say he6s &o&<retai&ed by them so #e %a& %all him 0or a&y purpose. ?ut 4 thi&2 the %ourt #as
lea&i&) the other #ay.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 #e6ve had several %o&versatio&s about 202>. F20 a&d #hat it allo#s or
does&6t allo#3 a&d #e %ame to the %o&%lusio& a&d your ho&or ruled that u&less it6s a party
#it&ess... B&less it6s a party or party #it&ess3 #hi%h 4 thi&2 is u&der b o0 that %ode se%tio&3 you
%a& pi%2 live or depo3 but you do&6t )et to do both.
Ju#$e% oh3 that6s ri)ht. That #as at the very be)i&&i&). That #as a lo&) time a)o.
Ms& Cahan% #e6ve bee& here a lo&) time3 your ho&or.
Mr& anish% %a& #e have a& order that $r. 9i&2elstei& is ordered to appear3 the&3 o& a spe%i0i%
day- ?e%ause 4 believe #e %a& )et this evide&%e i& #ith the appropriate @uestio&i&). He is u&der
subpoe&a3 a&d he6s &ot %ooperati&) as to #he& he6ll sho# up3 so 4 #ould as2 to )et a& order 0or
him to... 46ll )ive you a date tomorro# 0or him to spe%i0i%ally appear.
Ms& Cahan% 46m %o&0used. .re #e &ot doi&) his depositio& &o#-
Mr& anish% #ell3 #e may. 4 mea&3 46m )oi&) to loo2 ba%2 at the #hole thi&) a&d see #hether
#e &eed thatM but 4 believe #e %a& )et it i&. /ou 2&o#3 #he& the depositio& #as ta2e&3 it #as&6t
ta2e& to preserve trial testimo&y. .&d 4 believe that it %ould %ome i&3 so 4 *ust #a&t... 46ll say

tomorro#... 4 #a&t to 0irst %lear up the thi&) that you said3 a&d 4 2i&d o0 thi&2 that6s #hat you
ruled be0ore. /ou #ere sayi&) that about $r. Earley. 8o# 4 u&dersta&d that applies to $r.
9i&2elstei&. 7o 4 #ill )o ba%2 a&d loo2 at the %ut<up tra&s%ript to see i0 #e %a& live #ith itM or i0
#e %a&6t3 4 2&o# the& 4 %a&6t play it i0 4 #a&t to %all him live. 5e have him u&der subpoe&a. He
has&6t bee& that available. He #as o&ly o& the 9riday s%heduleM a&d3 obviously3 #e had a&other
9riday issue #e have to deal #ith 0irst. 46ll let you 2&o# about that tomorro#. That6s all 4
#a&ted to %lear up about the ruli&)3 i0 #e played it3 #e %a&6t %all him. 4 #a&t to ma2e sure.
Ju#$e% 4 thi&2 that #as true. 4 thi&2 #e6ve bee& operati&) u&der that this #hole trial #ith
everybody a&d everybody u&derstood that. 40 46m #ro&)...
Mr& .o)le% Earley #as a little di00ere&t3 but 4 u&dersta&d #hat you6re sayi&). 4 *ust #a&t to %lear
that up.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 *ust o& a )oi&)<0or#ard basis3 4 u&dersta&d the desire to see #hat )ets
ruled i& a&d out be0ore ma2i&) a 0i&al de%isio&3 althou)h that6s really a separate issue. ?ut #e
have spe&t literally hours ar)ui&) over a&d resear%hi&) these 0e# poi&ts re)ardi&) $r. 9ore%ast
a&d his stateme&ts3 a&d i0 #e %ould avoid this 2i&d o0 situatio& )oi&) 0or#ard3 be%ause it6s
%o&sumi&) a treme&dous amou&t o0 time #here #e %ould other#ise be havi&) testimo&y o%%ur...
.&d maybe there #as some %o&0usio& about #hat the rules #ere i& terms o0 doi&) live plus depo
or live or depo. ?ut *ust o& a& o&)oi&) basis...
Mr& anish% #e have&6t do&e that #ith a&y other #it&ess3 they6re all played.
Mr& .o)le% #e6ve bee& tryi&) to limit #hat you have to rule o&3 a&d #e6ve made %lear that the
ruli&)s mi)ht di%tate #hether #e play it. 'r. !ei#e2e has bee& a )reat example. There6s bee& a
lot o0 0i)hti&) here. 5e have spe&t %ourt time o& this3 but it6s %umulatively less tha& i0 #e %all
$r. 9i&2elstei& live #hi%h may be a day a&d a hal0. 5e6re &ot ma2i&) the %ourt or a&ybody do
extra #or2. 5e did a lot o0 resear%h3 tooM a&d the ruli&)s %ame out #here they %ame out.
Ju#$e% 4 2&o#3 but it does seem a little but li2e a bait a&d s#it%h 2i&d o0 thi&)3 you 2&o#.
Mr& anish% #ait a mi&ute. Everyo&e that #e6ve ruled o&3 #e6ve played. ,2ay- 5e have&6t
eve& )ot to this #hether it6s )oi&) to be played or &ot3 so there6s &o bait a&d s#it%h3 your ho&or.
Every o&e that you6ve ruled o& has bee& played3 so there6s bee& &o bait a&d s#it%h. The o&ly
@uestio& #as about this3 a&d #e did&6t 2&o# these... .&d #e thi&2 it6s pretty importa&t to our
%ase be%ause they6re %ompletely de&yi&) it3 so... 5e did a lot o0 time3 too. 5e do&6t have the
0or%es they have3 but #e spe&t a lot o0 time resear%hi&) the issues. /ou %a& see that a&d3 you
2&o#3 #e did&6t #i&3 so... 4 mea&3 4 do&6t 2&o# #hy it6s a bait a&d s#it%h #he& every o&e you6ve
ruled o&3 #e6ve played.
Ju#$e% 4 )uess the @uestio& 4 have 0or you is ho# is it )oi&) to be%ome &o&<hearsay *ust be%ause
he %omes i& live- 4 )uess 4 %a& liste& to ho# it #ould be%ome &o&<hearsay *ust be%ause he %omes
i& live3 but it still seems to be hearsay.

Mr& .o)le% be%ause 4 %ould as2 him a di00ere&t @uestio&3 or 'r. Pa&ish %ould as2 him a di00ere&t
@uestio&3 Cdid you have a& u&dersta&di&) based o& some other reaso&. . . C
Ju#$e% 4 have to say there6s bee& a lot o0 abuse i& this trial o0 that @uestio&.
Mr& anish% starti&) #ith Do&)a#are a&d Phillips bei&) @uestio&ed by de0e&se.
Ju#$e% both sides have used that @uestio&3 Cdo you have a& u&dersta&di&)3C a&d it al#ays eli%its
hearsay. ?ut3 a&y#ay...
Mr& anish% 4 a)ree. 4 #as ob*e%ti&) li2e %raAy about that #he& 'r. Trell #as o& a&d the %ourt
allo#ed it.
Ju#$e% 4 2&o#3 4 2&o#.
Mr& anish% 4 #as the o&e ob*e%ti&) to it.
Ju#$e% both sides.
Mr& anish% #ell3 o&%e that6s the rule3 that it6s u&dersta&di&)3 46m )oi&) to )o by the rules3 you
2&o#. ?ut 4 ob*e%ted3 i0 you re%all3 #he& that 0irst started.
Ju#$e% probably.
Mr& anish% 4 #as the o&e ob*e%ti&)3 sayi&) there6s &o su%h thi&) as that. ,2ay- The& they 2ept
telli&) you it is3 a&d a%tio&s based o& that3 a&d that6s #hat6s bee& the rule i& this trial.
Mr& ut'an% your ho&or3 4 thi&2 that6s a very sele%tive re0ere&%e o0 #hat a%tually has tra&spired
here i& the last seve& #ee2s. .&d 4 do re%all that #e a%tually 0ollo#ed them i& this lead3 your
ho&or.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 may 4 *ust as2 i0 they6re &ot )oi&) to be playi&) $r. 9i&2elstei&6s
depositio& tomorro#3 #hi%h 4 had u&derstood #as )oi&) to ta2e up additio&al time a0ter a short...
5hat 4 u&dersta&d to be short exami&atio&s o0 'r. T. 1. 1a%2so& a&d 'r. Ta* 1a%2so&3 #e6d li2e
to 2&o# #hat else #ill be happe&i&) tomorro#.
Mr& anish% absolutely.
Ju#$e% )ood @uestio&. 5hat are #e )oi&) to do &ext- 46m assumi&) you6re usi&) your pho&e to
ma2e that determi&atio&3 'r. Pa&ish-
Mr& anish% 4 #as loo2i&) 0or... 4 had as2ed i0 there #as a&other #it&ess that %ould %ome3 a&d
46m loo2i&)3 a&d 4 do&6t have a respo&se.
Mr& ut'an% is this the ei)ht<hour &oti%e 46m )oi&) to )et 0or #hoever the &ext #it&ess is-

Mr& anish% #ell3 you 2&o#... ,h.
Mr& .o)le% o2ay.
Mr& anish% 46m &ot eve& )oi&) to respo&d to that %omme&t.
Mr& .o)le% #e %ould ar)ue the motio&s o& 'r. .&s%hutA a&d 'r. Taylor3 but... ?ut...
Ju#$e% 4 do&6t 2&o# ho# lo&) that6s )oi&) to ta2e3 thou)h. 4 do&6t thi&2 it6s )oi&) to ta2e that
lo&).
Mr& .o)le% %ould 4 raise a @uestio& 0or 'r. Ta* 1a%2so&- There are a &umber o0 ha&d#ritte&
&otes that 'r. Ta* 1a%2so& 0ou&d i& the possessio& o0 'i%hael 1a%2so& at the time o0 his death3
a&d he also... 7o he 0ou&d them a&d he also ide&ti0ied the ha&d#riti&). .&d 46m #o&deri&) i0
they6re )oi&) to be ob*e%ti&) to us3 you 2&o#3 usi&) those i& %ourt be%ause i0 they are3 4 thi&2
there #ill be a le&)thy ar)ume&t o& that tomorro#. 5e have&6t heard a&y ob*e%tio&3 there #as
&o motio& i& limi&e o& it3 but...
Ju#$e% is it o& your Exhibit list-
Mr& .o)le% absolutely3 a&d he #as deposed o& it.
Ms& Cahan% i0 they #a&t to )ive us this eve&i&) the spe%i0i% o&es they #a&t to use3 #e %a& loo2
at his depositio& a&d see i0 there6s 0ou&datio&3 #e #o&6t ob*e%t... 5e do thi&2 he has some
0ou&datio& to tal23 he testi0ied about %ertai& do%ume&ts. .&d so i0 it6s the same o&es that #ere
tal2ed about i& the depositio&3 4 thi&2 #e6ll be 0i&e3 a&d it #ill be a &o&<issue3 but #e6ll have to
see #hi%h o&e out o0 the 2>0 pa)es.
Mr& anish% 0air e&ou)h.
Ju#$e% o2ay. .&ythi&) else- !i2e #ho is )oi&) to...
Mr& anish% 4 told them #ho 4 expe%t ri)ht &o#3 as o0 this mome&t.
Ju#$e% but that does&6t sou&d li2e they6re )oi&) to 0ill up the day.
Mr& anish% that6s #hat 4 2i&d o0 #as telli&) you #he& #e had the dis%ussio& earlier. That
#as... That #as 2i&d o0 my reaso& #hy 4 brou)ht it to your atte&tio&. ?ut3 you 2&o#3 i0 it6s
%omi&) do#&3 the&3 obviously3 #e6ll probably play 9i&2elstei& be%ause 4 do&6t #a&t to be
a%%used o0 some bait a&d s#it%h #hi%h has&6t o%%urred yet3 but... /ou 2&o#3 4 mea&...
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 they6re 2i&d o0 putti&) us i& a bad positio&. 5e have a& issue tomorro#3
a&d the& they6re asserti&) the G=<hour rule3 so they6re sayi&) #e %a&6t %all a&ybody. 5ho #as to
2&o# that Pri&%e 1a%2so& #as )oi&) to be 0i&ished be0ore lu&%h- 4 do&6t thi&2 a&ybody thou)ht
that.

Mr& ut'an% 4 said it #ould be a short %ross.
Mr& anish% he told me at the brea2 it #as )oi&) to be a& exte&sive %ross<exami&atio&.
Mr& ut'an% that6s &ot #hat happe&ed.
Mr& anish% 'r. Put&am3 he6s the bait a&d s#it%h. 4 as2ed him ho# lo&) #ould it be3 a&d 4 )ot
the sta&dard a&s#er3 Cho# lo&) are you )oi&) to be- 4t depe&ds #hat you as2. 4 do&6t 2&o#. C
o2ay. 4t6s bee& sta&dard3 a&d they al#ays %ome i& #ith their typed &oteboo2 outli&e. ,2ay- 7o
ho#ever he #a&ts...
Ju#$e% #ho does&6t %ome i& #ith a& outli&e-
Mr& anish% 'r. ?oyle.
Ju#$e% everyo&e does. Jeally-
Mr& anish% but they al#ays say... ?ut they al#ays say3 Coh3 4 do&6t 2&o#. Ho# lo&) are you
)oi&) to be- $epe&ds #hat you as2. C that6s the sta&dard a&s#er. 4t is&6t li2e a hal0 a& hour or a&
hour3 it6s &ever that. 4t6s &ever bee& that throu)hout the trial3 a&d it6s al#ays that. 7o... .&d
that6s #he& 4 as2ed be0ore3 a&d 4 brou)ht this up3 a&d 46ve said3 C#ell3 your ho&or3 %ould they )ive
me a& estimate o0 the time-C a&d they al#ays say3 Cit depe&ds #hat you as23 depe&ds ho# lo&)
it6s )oi&) to ta2e. C a&d you say3 C#ell3 you do&6t really 2&o# u&til you as2 the @uestio&s. C o2ay-
.&d that6s #hat6s bee& happe&i&).
Mr& ut'an% 46m sure i& the 100 trials that he6s had3 your ho&or3 that it has o%%urred di00ere&tly.
Ho#ever3 there6s this rule about &ot )oi&) beyo&d the s%opeM a&d there0ore3 #he& 4 i&di%ate that 4
do&6t 2&o# ho# lo&) it #ill be3 it6s di00i%ult to 2&o# ho# lo&) it #ill be u&til 4 2&o# #hat the
@uestio&s are o& dire%t.
Mr& anish% they have bee& beyo&d the s%ope o& every si&)le #it&ess i& this trial3 i&%ludi&)
Trell3 Do&)a#are a&d Phillips3 #hi%h 4 did&6t ob*e%t to. They #ere so 0ar beyo&d the s%ope i0 4
#as really )oi&) to te%h&i%ally e&0or%e that... 4 mea&3 %ome o&. 9or him to say... He6s bee&
beyo&d the s%ope so 0ar o& this trial3 it6s &ot eve& %lose.
Mr& .o)le% but separate a&d apart 0rom that3 your ho&or3 all #e6re tal2i&) about is the G=<hour
rule3 a&d there6s probably a reaso& that6s &ot i& the ++P. .&y#here be%ause sometimes i& trial
this exa%t thi&) happe&s.
Ju#$e% #ell3 i& the i&terest o0 preparatio& %o&siste&%y3 *ust bri&)... Eve& i0 it6s o&ly the t#o
people that you have3 #e6ll do the t#o people3 #e6ll se&d them home early3 #e6ll tell them thi&)s
happe&.
Mr& .o)le% #e %a& also try to 0i&d someo&e else3 but 4 thi&2 they6re ob*e%ti&)...

Ju#$e% i0 they6re ob*e%ti&)3 they have to have time to prepare. Everybody &eeds time to prepare.
5hat 46m sayi&) is #e6ll bri&) them i&3 do #hatever #e %a& do a&d se&d them home. 4t happe&s
sometimes. 46ve bee& o& that side3 4 2&o# #hat it6s li2e. /ou #a&t to prepare. 7o #e6ll *ust do
#hat #e %a& tomorro# #ith the #it&esses you have. ,2ay-
Mr& anish% 0air e&ou)h.
Mr& .o)le% %ertai&ly.
Ms& Cahan% tha&2 you3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% tha&2 you.

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