UNSCOMlIAEA SENSITIVE

In the evening of 22 August 1995, the Executive Chairman of the Spscial Commission ma with General Hussein Kamal in h e n The meeting was attended by ProF M Ziffercro (IAEA), N. Smidovich (UNSCOM),and a person From King of Jordan court who servcd as an interpreter. The meeting atanod at 1950 hrs and hsted approxlrnately thrcc hours The Crencral spokt in Arabic with the follow-up translation by the interpreter

Amb, suggested that the meetinpr started with the nuclear issue Hc asked for explanations on how far Iraq had progressed in its nuclear programme and what b d heen
achieved.

paflexpressed tho appreciation ofthe IAEA to the GMcral for receiving them for an informal meeting to discuss acaivities carried out. It was of great importance fbr the IAEA to listen to the Minister's explanations on the full ab~andonmentof the nuclear weapon programme by Iraq. Original Iraqi documents indicated that the programme had been tcrminatcd in January 1991 due to damage by coalition raids.

- Iraq initidly had one reactor find staned four different projects, Onc project was headed by Dr Jnffar and you arc aware o f it There was a secand project undergoing test and there were two projects under development Some pans you have seen A fcw months ago thcy had a project "Sodash" Thu was a new one Some equipment was buncd thcre hut it was recovered recently Part of this buried equipment was at the Sodash site Other parts were "made to disappear"
Praf. -what was the purpose of Sodash?

- that was a new project. They were doing some diglging activities for it and found this equipment. 1was not awarc that this equiprncnt existcsd The project was close t o the 'Traqi factory" which is also a new project to produce machines

hfJm - so there was the Sodash project, they started digging and discovered
equipment. What was this equipment for?

GmuaLHussaieKamal- it was from J a f f d s project located on the river. This site was destroyed. (He accepted Ziffercro's prompt that the site was cdled Tannya.)
P s p f J m .

- This was the W

S project. What about the centrifuge project headed by

Dr. A1 Ubcidi?

UNSCOMlUEA SENSITIVE

thcre wwc centrifuges. It was a department of thc Ministry of Agriculture. It was situated at Al Salih.
H u s s e l n

W m - Are you referring to Rashdiyah?

- Yes, it is in the middle between A1 Salih and Rashdiyah. You r o m know the place They manufacture their awn centrifuges in two ways One way was f marsging steel and the second -wing carbon fibres. All cent~rifuges worked but thcy prcferrcd thc ones made of carbon fibre. With carbon fibre centrifuges, the speed of 60,OOD rounds per minute was acMcvcd and they were. about to go to 100,000. This would be done in a d~ffcrent area but tho sctivity was stopped by the war

P r o E-Why did Iraq admit the centrifuge project but refused to disc'losc the
Rnshdiyah site where centrifuges had been developed? Why did they insist on concealinnRashdiyah and claim that this project was at Tuwaitha? Why were they hiding?
S s i; - You arc saying Tuwaitha? There was nobody at this placc from the nuclcu department, inclluding JafFar, that was related to the centrihge project NI worked on their own Before the Rashdiyah site belonged to the Agncu!twc Ministry

pLQf,zm - It was an imgatio'n project.

!GcncdUuls~inJi%ud - In the past, but then they started to use it

&QL=~ - W e did not understand why they kept Rashdiyah from all disclosures o f
thc ccntriluge project. Why was this concealment sitrategyl

-.rS

- It was the strategy to hide, not to reveal the sites

- They said that to divert! attention

ProEZiffe;rero - Buh thcy desmibed all the d!etails ofthe projcct. Howcvrr, they continue to insist it was Tuwaitha not Rashd~yah
!hU~lIU&&id

E d A f k ~ ~- o they . might be afreid we would destroy Rashdiyah, but it wns not designed for the ccntrifugc project. T h i s i s the only reason I can imagine.

there was absolutely nothing that remained there that had belonged to the M~nistryof Agriculture. It was the main centre.

P r o E- There w'as R production line in the Furat projcct

- Rashdiyah was the only place, flot Furat

be somewhere else.

Manufacturing might

Prof. - The &man company "lntcratorn" wan building Furat to manufacture

centrifugts. The company admitted that.

~w - this was to produce large quantities, but work on design was at

Rashdiyah. Those centrifuges used only a minimal amount of clcctrical power 20 kilowatt.

Prof.- you mean 20 megawatts.

-No,I am saying 20 kilowatts They dso used another process It is rolsred to "little holes" They made those holes in two ways. One is a n aluminium pipe - thin is the gmerally accepted world method.

0 -

- nickel i s also used.

-before that they used "powdcr" technology. They succeeded in both - in durninium and powder, but decided that xrlurninium was preferable They d ~ d it both -by chcrn~csl and rncchanical ways. Mechanical way was to drill holes something likc 27 million in one sq cm This process succeeded but also the centrifuge method Dr Ubcidi was in chargc The chemical way was in Tuwaitha but they have not advanced. It was destroyed during and &cr thc war
prof.^^ - were hero my continuatilon of, or present nuclear activities, fbr example,

d-

EMIS, centrifuge?

G a - no,but blueprints arc still there on mirmfiches. Electrical and mcchanic methods wcre cheaper than centrifuge. Difficulties were caused by comptessors. But we gor some camprcssors From the US. They also worked on switches.

PmWmm - You are referring to spark gaps

lhux&hmdamallit was headed by Khalid Sa'id

- this i s thc person in charge of group 4 at A1 Atheer,

- you mean the site close t o A1 Hakam.

Pi-gf3- those four processes related to production of material for a nuclear device So far we only talked abou~tenriching uranium but thcy need other studies, eg. on implosion. This was done at Al Athccr. Is it continuing somewhere else?

UNSCOM/IAEA SENSITIVE
War. First thty studied 12 tan, then 9 ton and then 5 ton. These are weights of a device which they would make suitable for delivery. These werc only studies The amaller was the better so that the aircraft could dclrvcr chun. The smaller was also considered ta be more effective.

7 - yes, but not now, before the Gulf

m - any delivery by ~nhssile?

- yes, but the restriction was on volume.

missiles. The main aim was to deliver by aircraft or missile.

It could have been on

Prof.-one of the dac~rn~ents referred to "final expcrirnent" with a device. We are aware that they were planning to dig rw shaft vertically and then horizontdy t o craate a chamber to test a device.

7 - have you seen this at Al Athecr?

Prof. - they surveyed many areas in the desert particularly in the South-West
dcowt, i n nre~s lcss populated.

- there was a place for testing of spark gap3 at A1 Atkeer

ErofAtkern - but they also need to test the device. I want to understand whether the
Iraqi document's reference to "final experirncnt" was the reference to a test or to combat use.
i k l - rhese wlere only studies They had highly enriched uranium from Franoe but it was under the IAeA safeguards They nlso tried to make their own IW1 thc time they workcd to make it smaller but had never reached a point close to testing

& o f kilogrnms.

millions of dollars wsrc inwcstcd in facilities to produce cnriched uranium in a range of tens of

- if it were only studies, con~ceprualwork, it is hard to understand why -

I W a m the reason for the studies was to use less uranium. They had only a few centrifuges so they could not produce a lot. French uranium was dready suitable for bombs But Rursian uranium was only EO% enriched blut still they can do it quicker than "normal" &

uranium.
yes Thc Iraqi government indicated to us that after Awpsn 1990 orders wcrc given to Dr Ubeidi and Jaffar to start a crash project This was to use enriched uranium from the Frcnch reactor and to enrich Russian material For bombs.

U N S C O W E A SENSITWE

1-

- no, not true. Had they had centrifuge, the decision wa9 already

there to usc Frenchuranium, but the:ywere not ready with centrifiges.

Prdf. - this is my hst question. 'RolfEkws told me that it was an agreement to

continue relations in the future. I hope we can continue mectings in the future. Minilster's memory is a legend in Iraq. You are well known for yo~ur m'ernory. (At this mament, Prof. Ziffcrero showed thc General a document.) This document was claim to be sent to you, Minister, by onc of the members of the specid committee.

- it i s a false document.
- we are of the same conclusion.
phrase in the letter is wong, The data (in the right upper cotncr) is wrong. it is no't coiica.
&&Z~&ED

w -

- it is full of mistakes. The author has no knowledge. The first

- it is a fakc document - it is not the work of the I r a q intelligence, but s m e other

Possibly Egyptian. How did you receive this docwmcnt and who signed it7

&QL~~&wQ -n i was received by fax and we have only thc first page. It was received in
April 95.

h r ; -

- they would h a w never written to me any such details

& Q L Z -~ Dr Khidir Abdul Abbas Hamza is related to rhis document

GmxiudBwe call this person Hozem. He is dark, tall, bigger thnn mo He is a profcssianaJliar. IIc worked with us but he uvss useless and was always looking for promotions. He consulted with me but could not deliver anything. Yes, his original name is Khidir hut we called him Hazem. Hc went to the Baghdad University and then left Iraq. He is very bad. He wns even intensogated by a team before he lcfi and was allowed to go. He uscd to work in the building opposite the Rssheed Hotel. It was a design center.

&nk~&$.u>

started to explain t o the General a d i a ~ r a m on Iraq's biological wcapons

programme (attached).

- S ~ dwns i directly involved. He is a chemical engineer

h -

- explained the Taha'~ p o u p e l m m t on ihe diagram.

& before H d r m there was Muthanna. Thcy m v e d therc from Salman Pnk, n a k a i was to producc bulk agents From Satman Pak they moved to Muthmn or to a Ministry of Agriculture facility in Dora. After Sallman Pak, thcy all went to Muthanna and all
worked at A1 Hakam lo manufacture bulk agents. They have chosen that site away from population. Most work was done at Dora on anthrax Below Sand1 there was General h e r Rsshid. Mutharda has become a minister. At thc beginninlg there was a doctor whose nnmc I could not remember. He came from the Univcnity and was the boss of Tnha

Smi&,j& - could it be Hindawi?

w s s a i n -yes, Hindawi. Me was there until dl reseracb on ~ G L was Y

completed

AmhEka~keu~ -we know t h t they weaponised agems in airbombs in December 1990

Cnlncraly e y c s , it was done at Muthanns.

with fibre-glass.

All agents were put in bombs

B m Z L m -you are referring,to DB-0 and DB-2 bombs7

d -

- I only remembelr fibre-glassmunitions rut Muthnnn~,

A m h J k u wcre there any mlssilc warheeds?

General ycs, but very few.

- 251
Bmb.- there w u produnion of biological weapons a t Fuddiyah

Amb. - some of the agents were put in bambs

Amb. - some were plant puthogma against whsat.

General- yeyes, thcy succccdcd in it before the war. They started it gincc the Iranian W a r . It was to product carbonization ofw:heat.

Amb. 1were t h y put into munitions?

used. You know there ia a mat water lake in Iran Thcy nlso had a similar agent to poison water but they had not auccaadad.

- 1do nat rtrncmber, but most likely thcy did

They were not

- I don't remember medical term.

Amb. - we know that the FMD Institute in D'orswns involved.
i~lnndi n England and they t e s d anthrw there.

GmccallIusJain - yea, in two things. First - anthrax manufacturing. There wan an

Amb. -

there any mcwch done on the Eboln virus qnd hncmorrhngic fevers?

General yes, but I did not r e d l medical namee. Homvcr, thc mnin focus w a s on anthrax and a lot of studies were done.
Smidovich - were weapons md ugcnts dcs8trayed7

- nathing remained.
Smjd&

- was it before or after inspections startcd?

G e n c d & w i W - &cr visits of inspcdian tmrns. You havc important role in kaq with this. You should not unduestimate yourself You tire very efFcctive in Iraq. There was an
engine for long rnnge misdes I didn't want to get involved. It was a lost battle and they chose to stop from using this,

. Srmdavich we could natfind m y traces of destmction.

,

buried them wns found by you.

- yes, it was done bdore you came in. Tho place where thcy
7

B - Is this the p l m north of Baghdad where thcy were buried?

General

- It w m in a month you came in. Deatruaion of warheads started -

but I could not remember the details.

E c d t t a l H u s m I made the deciaian t o disclost? everything so that Iraq coul~d

return to ncarmnl.
11 launchers.

started to explnin Iruq's acquisition from thc Sovia Union of819 missilca md

production.

AU

- not a single missile left but they had blueprints and mold5 for misailes were destroyed.

r I don't have precise inforinntian but I h a w that t w o Russim launchers were hddcn by thc Special Forces. One was in dismantled status; and thc w a n d was urmplmc. There was also a missile nnd a launcher from Ycmcn. During the Gulf War the misailc was hit The Russian missilt: was cxtrcrnely accurate and they want to produce thcm in haq bccause we have only Luna and SCUD missilcs They want to produce such missiles in Iraq nnd they studied gyroscopts for pinpoint accuracy. Now they are working with Ukraine to rnodlfy gqraswpcs

- what about launchern?

Smidavich raferrsd back to two SCUD Irunchers

- thue two launclhnrs are with the Special Guards. They are hidden in the same location whcra computer disks with informetion on nuclear programmes m. If you find one you will find the other. It is d&c;ult to pinpoint a specific location. President Saddarn's 9011, Qussay. knew whem h e y are. Aho General Kmal Mustafa h o w s He was with the Spcdal Guard$ artd now he is with the Rcpublicm Quaad.
Smidovich asked why they had dccidcd tot keep launchers while dl rnirsiles had been
destroyed.
k K it it the first s t v to rcturn to produaion. All blueprints for missiles are in a safe place thostfar N Hussein or longer range.

Smidovich - you mean for their own production?

- yw, for A Hussdn,

They produced engines for A1 Hwssein.

Some pMa were purchsscd up to a thousand They were all demoyed Mast important wlva gyros There are two miailcs one worked by General Ravld and mothw by Dr. Modher. 3hcy had two designa and worked for one yw.One is of nluminium and another ia of sitd Thc engines have differences and gyros are different. Warheads are also diferent 'She duminium missile3 arc li~hter b d have bigger wurhceds Raad is working on them. Steel missiles have

smaller warheads.
Smidovich - arc you referring to Ababil 100 missilea with a range of 150km7

1thm was Ababil 100 Thcy also produced misrril~es with a 5 0 h range. Dr. Modhet also worked on a motot design for a missile with a range of 3,000 km He had blueprints,
was this hvo-nfagt or a single stage missile?

m -

- a ~ingl~c angr with a very big engine.

It wan a V

M ~ C launch. ~

They also did some studies on cruise! mi,a#il~a d c r the war. You know, some US cruise missilea landed intact, so they Jtudicd them.

asked about Chinese involvcmrnt in 3 , 0 0 0 h draile.

m G - It ww only deaip. There was a Czech professor who helpad Modher with this. He w o r k 4 beforr: the war. h en,ginefor a 150km missile is even morc difficldt than an engine fo~r 3 . 0 0 0 h r q e missiles. Smnnlle'r engin& are more complicated. It's A lot easier to work with b i g ones. They had only blueprints, nothing was irnplcmcntcd. M e r cgnincs they n d a d to work an WOS, hol and lnunchers. But fucl wag not a problcm. it was m y t o make both liquid and mlid. They succeedled in mrvrfacturiw solid p~opollants in a new way. Thcy succeeded in iving rno8re powcr to mlid p;rop&nt.
returned to the issue of two SCUD launchers.

- the only thing I know is that they have them. The two launchsrs are at the same llocation a ! computcr disks. Both MudifUbeidi wd Modher have a lot of information on microfiche^ People who work in MIC were aqked to take docummts to their
houses

1 think you will have a new war of aenrches.

- the launcher i~ssucis very wnsitivc,

I haha a person with me who had a farm where molds f o ~ missiles wcre hidden. 1 will call for him.
I l u s s e i n

- I have not been prcwnt at any tests. They need 2 or 3 days to or chemical warheads. Possibly there conduct tests. Thwe were no flight tests ofbiolo~gical could have been a test of chemical but I don't remember.
Major Ezzsddin arrived at 9.40 pm.
taken away in 1992. As to the two launchers, I don't know.

Maior - I remember there were two molds hiddcn in my farm but they wcrc
GeaeralHussan two lllunchas we with the Special Guards. They are moved.

Onc is totally disassembled but thc o t h a is compkte. 1 don't understand why you consider launchers lo ba a big problem. In MIC, they could build launchers anytime.

S m w naked ifd~u carnponmts were rcrnaining in Iraq

General Ksmal AI Inusncin they had Soviet- made gyrompes not Praqi ones.
They were building a factory t o produce gyroscopes in Iraq. They also ordered gyroscopm in the
United Kingdom, Are you aware of this?
said that the Special Commission was aware that the gyroscope parts wcrc ordered by Iraq through M r Aws Hnssan and hs company, Cimnrron These parts were to be rnanufnchrrcd by different British companies but primwily at Norcroft.

rnumblcd something in Arnbic In 1993 they tried to obtain ~yroscopcs from Russia. General Naim wanted to order them from Russia a h the w a r but went to Ukraine.
said that WSClOM had a protocol between Iraq and Ukrainc.

SiFncrallIruadnICamal-thig war not for complete gyro system. It wss to get know-how
for missiles with a 1 5 O h range.

&nid&b

asked him h u t a project related to a supersonic retarding parachute.

GenersLHussein -this war a preliminary work for modification of SCUD. But in

general, we do not need to minimix the speed as separation succeeded. The fadtcr the warhead is mowng, the more dlffimlt it is to intcreept. This was the whole purpoae. At the beginning, wc have done some modification lc9ts but it was stopped. The more speed, the bettor. T h i s is the diffmwsr between A1 Hussien and SCUD Although Al Husscin has less explosive in a warhead.

it hag more destructive power thun SCUD bucnuss its spnd is higher and it is more difficult to

intercept.

Amb. could paraohute ayeem be related to a delivery of unconventional warhead

so that pnc gets effective dispersnl of agents? Otherwise, missiles will explodc inside the ground.

- kf you are referring to chemical and biological warheads, they mploded bsfotc impact. We testEd fhia method. We used proximity fuses Thcse fuses are also used in artillesy shells and we u d them. These lare firsts from devices to install minos. We f k d missiles with such fuses rgainn Iran and they did explode before impan,
l h & & . &said that uwally fize:sfiom miller).shclla would not work in missiles
h - no,they are a a d y the anme as artillery. They m m r e distance Earn ground and explode. It is not easy to do. Thcy werc originally tested wen with missiles that exploded in the air Ababil 50 missiles nre uaed to dispeme landmines and they usc thc same fuzes There were two groups worldng on proxlrnity k e s - one under General Sandi and the
other - Gcncrd Rashid Each of them had his own team that worked in parallel.

&n&&l~ - you are mying that warhead qaration succeeded?

bdbuhbd-yes At the very b t g i ~ j n g they used parachute. Rut when they

succctded in scpardtion, they stopped pnmchutm. Parachutes were only used for B short period in 1986, tcn y m ago.

Smidovich so separation succeeded?

h d h 8 8 * - th4t'n how we bombed Israel Warhcads separatcrl in isrrcl. They must be stparated for accuracy and speed During the war, I was in the southern area and 1: rcceivtd reports that Isratl clnhtd that they shot down some of our missiles I asked why I was asking because I. wah more involved in manufacturing I was told that Patriot missiles were actually hitting thc body of misrilcs not the warheads.

hidwkh- thcre wlu a report that only one rnissilc was destroyed by Patriot.
-o n e or two wnc hit by Patriots but it was by chance, not accuracy, They fired many missilea against cach incoming missile. We did a lot of studies of missilc interception and what i s the best solution separation. We wcn had cometo missile warheads.

h i h i & - you mean A IN j m missiles?

Thc Americans and Europeans are spending a lot o f rnoncy to produce intercaptor missiles but the Russians are more advanced in this In my view, it is a wute of moncy especially against multiple warheads.

--

ku&.&w

- The Putriot company should have be~corne very rich

- 1 ww with the CnencrBI Staff and moved to the Presidential Smurity: the Special Guatds. Thcn I was put in charge of the Republiean Guard with only 30 people. The Republican Guard b m e vny effective and contributed to the cnd of the war with I w . I remember the battle d e d "Crown ofBattlcsM.Wc surprised the 'Iranians. The Iranians c m c in by boats dong thc Tigris River snd blocked a road from Al Amarb to Basrah. Thy moved into Hawr al Hammar. So they cut 1.5 m i l l i ~ n d u n m of the Ireqi land. At that moment, thc Rcpubli~canGuard w m t into &ion. It wan heavily m c d . I w a s in Saudi Arabia to meet Crown Prince AbduUah. The Saudb weirs very womed. Their plan suggcstd a wuntcrattnck but I explained to AbduUah thst thc Iraq,iscan ouslter the Irnnians in 24 hours. The Iranians were well equippod with artillcry, tub and infantry but the Republican Guard pushed t h a n our in 48 hrs. After rhal I m e to the finilitmy inchitriea. One af my first tsaks was to produce rubber boats. I asked for authomty to produce them. Beforc that, the Army w a s looking werywhae for thcm. But we bought fibre-glms and epoxy resin and soon we were producing 80 boats a day. T h i s was our m8easureto counteranack in case of future attacks. We d s o built big basts for the Navy. They were 18 to 22 metres long m d equipped with MLRS and machine p n a . Wc operated t h m &om the Gulf So the Iranians taught us about boats. We also instdlad 81mm launch tubes, bwght from Italy, on thew boats. Thcy were specidly purchased a s there wero no such mortars in the Ifaqi Army. Ylou h o w , the plantations are very high in the Gulf and the Irnnian,~ used this ks cover. So we n d to take countermeasures. Iraq built boats with mini hovers and clean the plantations. We rlso used to lob ammunitions. Beforr: mc,the military industries wcre under Tab Jsuavi. They wcre prodwing 5-6 shells per day and 120 mortar shells pw day. I came in and numbers shunged We spent a lot oftime on this. This is how my involvement with thc military industricg started. It wlllo by the necessity o f w w . Before that, if someone would offer 2,000anilleq rounds, they would immediately send aircrafl to pick thcm up. Tberc was a despcratc n d .

h & j , & asked about irnq'a VX programme

They were not uscd and the prograrnmc was tcrminatcd. D u r i n ~ the Gulf W a r ,there was no intention

- thcy put it in bombs during last days of the Iran-Iraq war,

to use &emid weapans as the Allied Force was owewhclming. They fini&ed work on binary d a long-shelf life. In the old days, chemical weapon facilit~es were underground but this that h was a dslh and we put them above grwnd. Chcmicd weapon storages wcrc also underground but it was a miatnke At the begimhg, they worked with one Egyptian scientist to make mustard gas Then they proceeded to Jnrin, then VX,then binary Sarin had a short life, mudard gg'l hm longer effect but i% not us potent as sasin. We knew that Austria did some testing on VX The man responsible for the programme wacr General Faiae h a d AI'Ani also worked on VX Now he i9 with the civilian scctor. Gmcral N m was the Director of M u t h w There was nnothet pason who worked at M u t h m a but now he is director of a glass factory but I could not remember hir name VX was a purely Iraqi problem.

- did they succeed in stnbilizii$ VX?

Bombs consisted of two pMa and they made it during the last days of the Iran-Iraq war. So the components were only mixed when fired, Mter thc ].ran-Iraq war, thc factory was turned into civilian production. Iran all80 had rnuatud and and they used mustard in small quantities. Some of the chcmical camponmts cRmr from the US to Iraq. Even Iran bought some components from the US but when they w i v e d , the Iranians discoved they were water. Them was a Etrmlrn middleman inwlmd in the Iraqi CW programme. Now he is an Iraqi citizen. He is o f Jordanian origin. UNSCOM met him. Be now lives in Iraq. I think hc w u sent to Iraq to do work by foreign p w m .

h -

- they were able to do it by splitting VX into binary.

&~U~EA - did you mstw VX pmduction after the Iran-Iraq war?

G c n c r a l d we changed the factow into pesticide production. Part of thc establishment started to produce medicine.
fm&yi,& asked if the finaid was referring to t,ho Samarra Drug Establishment.
Smarra atand to produce medicine with workers from Muthanna. Muthanna itwlf started production of pesticides and insedicidcs, but some of them turned out to be more diffic~llt to produce than CW. We gave insturctionr not to producc chemical weapons,. I dan't remember resumption of chemical weapon prod:uction bolforc the G u l f W a r . Maybe it was only minimdpraduciton and filling. But there was no decision to usc chemical Weapdng for fear of retaliation. They reali~ed that if chemical weapons were used, retaliation would be nuclear. They must have a revision of decision to stm production. All chemical weapons were destroyd. I ordered destruction of all chemic,dweapons. All weapons - biological, chemical, missilc, nuclear were destroyed.

UNSCOMMEA SENSITIVE

&n&u& asked if there was a report to the Prcisidenr with nn inventow of a'll available proscribed weapons in mid-May 1991.

- 1 am not aware but gomeone else could have done such

rcponing. I resigned from the Party in July ss 1 did not want to be associated with their policies It was Tmiq Aziz's mistake. asked why missiles and chemical weapons were kept in part while biological weapons were all destroyed. in the nuclear area, there were no weapons. Missile and chemical weapons were real weapons. Our main worry was Iran and they were ngalnst them. So enough for today.

--

A m b . - t h u t might be an oppoflunity to meet again, especially afler we would

study documents from the farm.

Creneral -there are thrcc jokes first, Ihht I was the one responsible for not disclosing past programmes; second, that 1 am a CIA agcnt snd third, that the documents were hidden at my farm There is a contrladiction in what Tariq h i z is saying One day he is saying that he is in charge in Iraq, the next day he claims that I was concealinfj. Thtrc was a decision by
the Revolutionary Command Council on thc 31 August deadlme and the ult~matum Now they nre sayin5 thcy are working closely with you Why such a sudden change? Oncc thcy follow their pol~cy, results are drcadful

A a b m - when you lefl the country, they started to change policy.

- the current government will never change. Odhcnvise I would not leave. They will remain as always. Last time they massed the A m y in Basrah ready to go inno Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. I thought to leave at that time. They might think they might accuse me of bcing a traitor but I saw dl kinds ofbattles. Until now it was planned to go into Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. If I stop issuing statements to the public far three weeks, they will return to the old policies. Listlen again to Saddam's speeches immediately after thc Gulf War and now. Still no changes for Iraq: poorer and suffuing. They are only interested in themselves and not worried about economics o'r pol;itical state of the country. First I thought to resign but then I decided not to work again,stregime Born inside the couintry. Now after I left, I can state publicly I will work against the regime. There is a lot of bad writing against me but all Iraqis know that I am a doer, an "irnplernentcrr". I was not involved in any of their wrongdoings. 1 led a quiet life. I never tried tea or coffee, smoke a ci8arette or drank alcohol. The r'egime lost the entire Arab area and the Arab world lost Iraq. In 1948, there ,was a war between Israel on one side and

Palestine and Arab countries on the other. Even now, the regime continue to end all statements with a slogan "tong Life Paleatine" but the Pdeatinians signed peace with Israel. In Iraq, hugc amount of water is wasted into the sca. Why k u l d nor Iraq give water to its neighbours. If there had been trust in the Iraqi regime, the neighbouring countries would have signed ngrrcment, but with this regime, it might decide to stop water supplies. In Europe, there were w a r s lasting for 300 years. Now everyone is enjoying benefits From the policy of cooperation. Problems do exist but they are not solved by force. In 1968, Iraq went to the Soviet Union. The rest of the Gulf States had relations with US. This started the Cold War in the region. IFall oFus were dealing with one power, there will be no problems inside and outside. But the current regime went to USSR m d that rose f w s in US, Europe that the Soviet Union might take control. Who lost? Iraq, because they had no longlw look into the interest of Iraq and the region. It is most important to be stable and nor to go to war with its neighbours. It is this kind of policy that is, putting Iraq badc into thc Stone Age. Nothing forbids good relations between Iraq and USA. Iraq needs it - for stability. for Iraq. If Russia and 'US arc in the area, there will bc problemr. The Government of Iraq is instigating fundamentalism in the country. T h i s is of concern for Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait. It i s against Europe and US. Now Baath Party members have to pass a religiou!~exam. This would strengthen Iran. It would be detrimental far the whole region. h he in'tcrprdcr remarked that Iraq and Iran would have the same mentality.) This will be another world war. Every party mcmber has to plass a religious exam. They even stoppcd party meetings

for prayers.
Notcs were taken by N. Smidowich,