How Iconoclasts Think - HBR IdeaCast - Harvard Business Review

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How Iconoclasts Think
by HBR IdeaCast | 9:48 PM May 13, 2010

Featured Guest: Gregory Berns, the Distinguished Chair of Neuroeconomics at Emory University and author of Iconoclast: A Neuroscientist Reveals How to Think Differently (http://hbr.org/product/iconoclast-a-neuroscientistreveals-how-to-think-d/an/1501-HBK-ENG?referral=00134) .

Subscribe via: RSS (http://feeds.harvardbusiness.org/harvardbusiness/ideacast) | iTunes (http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=152022135) All Podcasts (http://blogs.hbr.org/ideacast) TRANSCRIPT SARAH GREEN: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Green. I'm talking today with Gregory Berns, the distinguished chair of Neuroeconomics at Emory University. He's the author of Iconoclast: A Neuroscientist Reveals How to Think Differently. Thanks much for joining us. GREGORY BERNS: My pleasure. SARAH GREEN: Maybe we can start with, what does a neuroeconomist do? GREGORY BERNS: A neuroeconomist uses brain imaging to basically decode how the brain makes decisions. And by that, I mean we use technologies like MRI to probe specific activities in the brain while people are making decisions, and then we try to figure out how the brain represents things like risk and reward, and gain and loss, and punishment, and things like that. SARAH GREEN: So then how did you go from that to studying iconoclasts? GREGORY BERNS: Well, it was really a natural outgrowth. Neuroeconomics as a field is only probably about six or seven years old right now, and prior to that, like many neuroscientists, I had been studying basic processes like reward and punishment in the brain, but really hadn't given any thought to what that means for how people make decisions. And, like I said, about six or seven years ago, a group of neuroscientists and economists got together to discuss the possibility that in fact, we were actually studying the same thing but from two very different angles. And the result of that was the field of neuroeconomics, which merged elements of economic theory with neuroscience. And so it was during that period that I became very interested in how, not only do fields merge like that, but new ideas come about. And what is it that allows some people to come up with new ideas and actually do them, and other people not? And so it was during that period that I started thinking about writing a book about iconoclasm, which really means doing things differently, but in a much more extreme way. Doing things differently in ways that other people say can't be done. SARAH GREEN: So in the book you mention that, in your view, iconoclasts actually perceive things differently because their brains work differently, their brains don't take as many shortcuts. What do you mean by that, and how does that affect their decision making?

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GREGORY BERNS: When I started thinking about what are the elements of innovation, and in the extreme, iconoclasm, the first thing that I realized was that in order to do something different, you have to see things differently at very much a literal level. And this gets right into the heart of perception, which is the process by which the brain takes in inputs from its senses, primarily vision, and then converts it into something that we're consciously aware of. And I think there's a misperception that-- especially with vision-- that the brain operates very much like a video camera. And in fact, the eyes, specifically the retina, do operate like a video camera, but the brain does not. The brain takes that information and immediately starts transforming it and operating on it in ways that we're just beginning to understand. But the thing that is very clear is that what you perceive is very much a product of your past experience. So if you see something, you don't necessarily take it for an objective reality. Your interpretation of what you literally are looking at is very much influenced by everything that's happened before you, in your life. And not only that, your interpretation of what you see is influenced by what other people say they see. And so it's with this backdrop, when we begin to understand innovation and iconoclasm, that you realize that the problem begins with how you see the world and how you hear the world, and that it's almost impossible to completely get rid of the influence of past experience and other people's opinions. SARAH GREEN: So moving from perception to reality and innovation, and the sort of middle stage there that you mention is imagination. You have to be able to imagine a different reality after you're done perceiving how things are now. I really like the story in the book that you tell about Branch Rickey, being a big baseball fan myself. Tell us that story, and what kind of iconoclast is he? GREGORY BERNS: Yeah, Branch Rickey is actually one of my heroes as well, and unless you're a baseball fan, you probably haven't heard of him. The story of Branch Rickey is intimately tied to the story of Jackie Robinson. So Branch Rickey was originally the manager of the Saint Louis Cardinals, and during his time there, he changed the landscape of major league baseball. So he's the one responsible for the current system of minor leagues as the feeder system into the majors. That didn't exist before him, that was his brainchild. And then he was hired by the Brooklyn Dodgers to be their manager. And this was during World War II. And during World War II, many of the major league players had been drafted, and so the talent pool was actually rather thin during those years. And given Ricky's experience with the minors, he started looking even further afield for talent. And at the time the so-called negro leagues was the other equivalent league. And he started sending out scouts, and came across Jackie Robinson, and made a real push to the owners of the Dodgers to hire him. And I think it's a testament to his iconoclasm for seeing things that were possible, that other managers and other owners didn't see. So at the time, many owners and managers basically just saw skin color, and thought that the public would not accept a black player in the majors, whereas Rickey saw things very differently, and saw past that and saw talent, and the need to bring a major league pennant-- a championship pennant-- to Brooklyn, which Brooklyn definitely wanted, and indeed he was right. But it took his ability to see things very much different than what other people were saying, and get past kind of what was the reality of the time, and actually persuaded the owners of the Dodgers to make that hire. SARAH GREEN: So was Jackie Robinson in that story, is he an iconoclast too? GREGORY BERNS: I do talk about Jackie Robinson in a very different context in terms of iconoclasm. So after the issues of perception, once one gets past perception, the next thing actually that the iconoclast will typically deal with is fear. And all the great iconoclasts have had fear. And this is a very natural, considering that when you do something very different, you run the risk of social ostracism, of ridicule, or just outright failure. And so Jackie Robinson, clearly an iconoclast for having to deal with fear under the circumstances of playing like that, you know, under threats to this life. And the ability of the successful iconoclast is to overcome those fears and actually persevere and perform under those circumstances. And that has a lot to do with the neuroscience of fear, and in the book I talk about where this resides in the brain and what we can learn about how you control it, and not let it govern your decision making.

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SARAH GREEN: So in that sense, it sounds like you're saying that even those of us who might not be iconoclasts could train our brains to respond to fear as iconoclasts, too. GREGORY BERNS: Yeah, I mean, the overriding message of the book is not necessarily how to become an iconoclast in five easy steps. I think that's ridiculous. I think the first thing to acknowledge is that our brains are not evolved and not naturally wired to do things radically different than other people. And the reasons for that are several, it has to do with perception, it has to do with fear. But by understanding those limitations, each individual can then be armed with the knowledge to make slight changes and make it a little bit easier under specific circumstances, or, if you're a manager, to manage people and create environments that are more conducive to innovative thinking. SARAH GREEN: Now in your discussion of fear in the book, one of the things you mention is that it's possible to be a sort of accidental iconoclast, and I thought that concept was really appealing. I guess I sort of like the idea that anyone, maybe even me, could just stumble into being an iconoclast. What do you mean by an accidental iconoclast? GREGORY BERNS: Well I think there's two types of iconoclasts. There's the ones who are clearly just naturally born that way, and are just naturally contrarian thinkers and doers from their childhood on. I think, though, that those types of people are actually relatively in the minority, and although interesting, don't necessarily give a lot of insight to most other people, because if you were born that way, you can't really change it. There were many people that I interviewed in my travels and who I consider accidental iconoclasts, because they were necessarily born that way, but they were thrown into some specific circumstance and rose to the occasion where they actually did something very different. And these are not people that are generally famous or that are household names, but kind of in their own specific stories, clearly just found themself in a circumstance where they did something very different. But had they not been in that circumstance, it's highly unlikely that I would have tagged them as an iconoclast. SARAH GREEN: I'd like to talk a little bit about social intelligence. You mention that as being another important component of being an iconoclast. But I think, we often think of iconoclasts as being sort of prickly people. Why is social intelligence so important to iconoclasm? GREGORY BERNS: Yeah, you know, I agree. I think many of us do think of iconoclasts as kind of the loner person not necessarily with the most social skills, and indeed, there are many people like that. So early on in the book, I talk about the difference between Pablo Picasso and Vincent van Gogh, who are probably two of the most iconoclastic of modern artists, one of which was very successful in his lifetime, Picasso, and the other died broke at a young age. And really, when you get down to it, the main difference between their stories has to do with their personality and ultimately their social skills. Picasso was loved by everyone, men and women alike. Van Gogh probably didn't have a single friend in his life, and even his brother really didn't like him. And that has a lot to do with their fate. And it's particularly important for the iconoclast to think about this, because if you're doing something very different, it's going to be rejected by most people because it's different. And unless you have the social skills to persuade people and win them over, perhaps by wrapping your idea in something that's more familiar, it's just not going to succeed. Now one of the messages of the book is that it's rather unlikely to find an iconoclast with this magic trio of traits, and it's not necessary. If you're a manager, for example, you can create teams with the skills necessary to do all these things. Or if you're an iconoclast, you can partner with someone who has, perhaps, better social skills. And indeed, I think the social intelligence is probably the easiest one to fix through team building and partnership. SARAH GREEN: So some of the examples we've talked about here, Branch Rickey, Pablo Picasso-- these people changed their fields forever. And I'm wondering, in your definition, does an iconoclast have to have some kind of enduring power behind his idea, or her idea, to really count? GREGORY BERNS: That's a hard question to answer. I think, you know, in retrospect, that's how we define iconoclasts, but you know, that's kind of Monday morning quarterbacking. And we just don't know until things are very much past who the people are that kind of make their mark. I mean, I think that's up to the individual, at what

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level they want to be an iconoclast. You don't necessarily have to change the world to be an iconoclast. We all do things that can be innovative and different in our own way and in our own work environment. SARAH GREEN: And maybe that's where it goes back to what we were talking about before, about accidental iconoclasts. You don't really set out to have some sort of enduring legacy, it just sort of happens. GREGORY BERNS: Yeah like I said, I mean, I think it's both. I mean, there are people who clearly are on a mission to change things, and then other people don't realize it until they're in that situation. And you know, no one can predict the future, and only history will tell what's truly innovative or not. SARAH GREEN: From a business context, do you think it's more valuable to have the iconoclasts off in corner being managed, or do you think it's important to have the iconoclast as the visionary CEO at the top of the company? GREGORY BERNS: It's hard to say. You know, companies each have a different culture, and I think it very much depends on the culture of the specific company. And I've seen companies that do their best to try to foster an innovative environment, but realize, to do that, it's more than just lip service to innovation. I think you have to take into consideration how people perceive the world, what people are actually afraid of-- turns out, for example that the most common fear is fear of public speaking. I don't think this is generally appreciated in a business setting, because it's taken for granted that people will speak their mind, but it's not necessarily true. About a third of the population has a significant fear of public speaking. And that doesn't mean they don't have good ideas, it just means that they get intimidated in the typical environment. So I think it's up to the company to set the right tenor and the right environment to foster new ideas. Now that said, I've also seen many companies that operate under fear, and there are certain business models where that's a very efficient, and it motivates people to get things done. I would say it's not a very efficient model for innovation, though. SARAH GREEN: Food for thought. Well, thank you so much for talking with us today. GREGORY BERNS: My pleasure. SARAH GREEN: That was neuroeconomist Gregory Berns at Emory University. The book is called Iconoclast. For more, go to HBR.org, and as always, send your feedback to ideacast@hbr.org.

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18-08-2013