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?
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[digital beeping,
electronic tones]
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[static hum]
[keyboard clacking]
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I released an early Beta version
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during the summer
and it spread quickly
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by word of mouth.
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[John Stewart] Napster users
can download musical selections
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in - in MP3 format.
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MP3 is what's called
a variable loss compression
algorithm.
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<i>Here's how it works.</i>
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Napster and
downloading distribution
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is the biggest excitement
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since Disco,
Rap and the Beatles.

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Its like new radio.
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The majority of usage
of the MP3 format, um,
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is for unauthorized [WORD].
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Yeah, I would like a CD player,
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but I can't spend $16 on a CD.
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Napster is an evil, evil,
evil, evil place to go.
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...standing by live in San Mateo
with more details on this story.
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This last fall semester wore on
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<i>hundreds quickly</i>
<i>turned to millions.</i>
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<i>With the program spreading</i>
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<i>across college campuses</i>
<i>like wildfire.</i>
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I have never seen the industry
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under siege like this
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in the 30 years

I've been in this business.

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It's very important
that the internet
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go the legitimate route
instead of becoming
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a haven for pirates.
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You don't think
this is stealing?
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Not at all.
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'Cause you're just getting
a few songs
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that you find interesting.
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The "N" word you know, appeared.
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And we had to defend ourselves.
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[Don Henley]
Whether we like it or not,
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Napster has changed everything.
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And the record companies
are sadly behind the curve.
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At its peak,

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nearly 60 million people
used the site
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to swap music files
from each other's computers
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for free.
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The whole Internet
could be re-architected
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by Napster-like technology.
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Now sure
is the tip of the iceberg.
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I think you're talking about
the proverbial finger
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in the dyke.
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Fuck Napster!
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30 years ago,
the San Francisco Symphony
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released its music on LPs.
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Then came cassettes.
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And now of course, CDs.
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But in the very near future,

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you may be able
to download their music
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from the internet.
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We met over the internet
and we knew each other
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for like three or four years
or something.
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before we ever met in person.
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Mm-hmm. We met the first time
as a result of Napster.
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Shawn flew down
from Boston to Virginia
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to meet with some investors
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that I set up
a meeting with.
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The doorbell rang,
I was nervous
for a brief second.
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Kind of like going on a,
like a first date.
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Uh, with someone
you're starting a company with.

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And uh, and the door opened,
it was Fanning.
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He looked at me
and he said,
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'you look exactly
like I thought you'd look'.
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And I said, 'you look exactly
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like I thought you'd look'.
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And he said, 'okay great,
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let's go over the presentation'.
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So we jumped into the Powerpoint
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and went through all the slides,
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and then got in
my parents' minivan
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and my dad drove us
to our first investor pitch.
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I take issue
with people who say,
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'Ah, the moment I saw it,
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I knew it was gonna be

fucking huge
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and take over the universe'.
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They're all lying.
There's no possible way.
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No one had that
conceptualization
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in the beginning.
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I don't even believe
Fanning did.
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You're saying that people
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are gonna download a client,
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put a client on their computers
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and they're going to
allow stuff on their hard drive
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to be shared.
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Most of the development
of the web,
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up until Napster,
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was basically about

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information storage
and information retrieval.
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It wasn't about connecting
people to people.
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We're gonna, like,
download stuff
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from each other?
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Like, I was like,
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nobody's gonna open up
their hard drive like that.
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Nobody's gonna allow
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their bandwidth to be used.
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This sort of comes
onto my radar.
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And its really interesting.
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No one is going to share an MP3.
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That, that was my quote.
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No one's gonna share an MP3.
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And...

Boy was I wrong.

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I was so wrong.
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<i>Our system has been bilked,</i>
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<i>this time sharing system</i>
<i>for, for about</i>
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<i>six months now.</i>
<i>Its been working</i>
<i>and in that time,</i>
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<i>we've gone from</i>
<i>getting one console</i>
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<i>to getting about</i>
<i>six working now</i>
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<i>with six more due</i>
<i>the rest of spring.</i>
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<i>What is internet anyway?</i>
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<i>Internet is uh,</i>
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<i>that massive computer network.</i>
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<i>The one that's becoming</i>
<i>really big now.</i>
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<i>[off-camera]</i>
<i>It's a giant</i>
<i>computer network</i>
120

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<i>made up, made up of uh,</i>
<i>started it from...</i>
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Oh I thought
you were gonna tell us
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what this was?
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It's like a computer billboard.
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<i>[off-camera]</i>
<i>It's not, it's not a,</i>
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<i>it's, it's</i>
<i>a computer billboard,</i>
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<i>but its nation-wide</i>
<i>and it's it's several uh,</i>
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<i>universities and everything</i>
<i>all joined together...</i>
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And others can access it?
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<i>[off-camera]</i>
<i>And it's getting</i>
<i>bigger and bigger</i>
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all the time.
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I wrote a piece back in 1990,
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that, that it would
shortly be the case that, that

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everybody under 20,
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at that point, would become
native to a place
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where everybody over 20
at that point,
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would always be an immigrant.
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So I was a young teenager
and I ran,
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I was running a uh,
Running a BBS,
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which was um, somewhat
sophomorically titled,
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'Realm of Darkness'.
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But online in the BBS era, meant
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connected to potentially one,
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maybe a hundred other people.
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Maximum.
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And that, that's what was
so profoundly different
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about the explosion

of the internet.
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Was that it was one network.
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So suddenly,
you could be connected
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to everyone.
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There are now,
a very large number of people
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that are online,
that are young.
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And you know, they have
a completely different sense
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of how the world works.
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And what power is and what,
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what authority ought to be.
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I mean its a profound shift.
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It's the difference between
vertical authority, you know,
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God-given physically
enforceable authority
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and horizontal authority.

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I've joked in the past,
and Fanning and I would be like,
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where did you guys meet?
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And we were,
we were part of the, you know,
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Fanning and I were part
of the same underground network
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of elite cyber criminals.
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And it, it's basically true.
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We met through IRC,
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um, as we both got drawn
into IRC,
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we became more and more
addicted to it
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and more and more
fascinated by it.
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Which made us fight much harder
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to retain access to it and then,
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you know, over time,
173

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it became our lives.
It took over our lives.
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You're talking about
revolutionizing
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the way we use computers.
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And how we use the internet.
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Oh absolutely. Absolute...
I mean it, this is, this is the,
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what's most interesting
about it,
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is you're interacting
with peers.
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You're exchanging information
with you know,
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the person down the street.
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And we're just beginning?
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Oh, absolutely.
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Sean Fanning's one of
the smartest people
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I've ever met.
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He was teaching himself

how to program
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and he saw this really simple
way to find music
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that he could listen to
on the internet.
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Here was a guy with no clout,
no connections,
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19 years old and he really
changed the way
we think about the internet.
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It's hard to explain
where things were at back then.
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I mean I was 18,
I didn't really,
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I hadn't really seen
much of the world.
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You know, I didn't really...
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Um, I think it was,
I mean the best way to say it
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is it kind of came from
a very pure place.
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[music]
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I was excited

'cause he was my first.

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So I thought, you know,
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I really did think
he was gonna conquer the world.
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Everybody does
with their first kid, right?
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I was born in Brockton and uh...
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didn't have
the most stable family.
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Uh, you know,
they made their best effort,
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but I grew up with a stepdad
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and we ended up
in foster care a couple times.
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Brockton was just a, uh,
Brockton was just no good .
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[laughs]
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But uh, huh, yeah.
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I mean, I don't want to,
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I don't want to
talk to much about like

212
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money situation,
but like you know,
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we, we grew up
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like, not too well off you know.
215
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And my mom and dad,
there's five kids
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and my dad was
a delivery driver, you know
217
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and they did the best
they could, but...
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That's when, he got into sports
when we moved down to the Cape.
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00:09:03,976 --> 00:09:06,111
Being into sports,
I think it got his mind
220
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Um, so that life
was a little easier for him.
221
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I think music helped him too,
like sports.
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Every time he was
on the computer,
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he had the radio there.
224
00:09:15,155 --> 00:09:17,789

See what I mean,

like he was always
listening to music.
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So uh, there's really no
surprise there
226
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that he-he-he ended up,
227
00:09:24,131 --> 00:09:25,797
in, you know,
thinking of something
228
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that made sense to him
229
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as far as um,
230
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the music and
the computer combined.
231
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I was fortunate to have an uncle
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who was into technology
233
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and gave me my first computer.
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There's a,
there's a lot of insecurity
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that comes around being
236
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uh, dependent on others.
237
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You know, to get by
and so as a kid,

238
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it sort of influenced
239
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my social uh,
confidence at school.
240
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We moved around a lot.
241
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Um, there was also kind of a,
242
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I didn't feel as connected
to my family, intellectually.
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And so, um, I didn't really have
244
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many others at school either
on that front.
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So I was sort of,
feeling a little bit uh, lost.
246
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And displaced at times.
247
00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:05,704
Going online and finding people
248
00:10:05,706 --> 00:10:08,073
who had the same interests
249
00:10:08,075 --> 00:10:10,542
or I could learn from
and where there was no,
250
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your reputation
was your own.
251

00:10:12,479 --> 00:10:14,579

It was not about like,
you know the,
252
00:10:14,581 --> 00:10:15,513
how well off
your family was,
253
00:10:15,515 --> 00:10:16,414
or how well
you dressed.
254
00:10:16,416 --> 00:10:19,184
Um, or how well you spoke
or body language.
255
00:10:19,186 --> 00:10:20,719
It was about the merit
of what you were saying
256
00:10:20,721 --> 00:10:22,287
and I think that...
257
00:10:22,588 --> 00:10:24,422
for me, was just intoxicating.
258
00:10:28,761 --> 00:10:30,662
In the early days of the web,
you know
259
00:10:30,664 --> 00:10:32,263
the first time I ever saw music
260
00:10:32,265 --> 00:10:34,232
that was down-loadable
261
00:10:34,234 --> 00:10:36,668
was a song that I put up
on my homepage
262
00:10:36,670 --> 00:10:38,970
on campus internet.
It was an MP2 file.
263
00:10:39,538 --> 00:10:41,506
I guess that would
have been '93,

264
00:10:41,508 --> 00:10:42,641
around that time.
265
00:10:43,275 --> 00:10:44,876
And there were very few
people out there
266
00:10:44,878 --> 00:10:47,746
Because you're changing
it into another file format
267
00:10:47,748 --> 00:10:49,314
or have a special card t
o play it.
268
00:10:49,482 --> 00:10:51,449
For anyone who had been
downloading stuff
269
00:10:51,451 --> 00:10:54,285
it was such
a colossal pain in the ass.
270
00:10:54,287 --> 00:10:55,353
It's not funny.
271
00:10:55,355 --> 00:10:56,721
Uh, even for technical people,
272
00:10:56,723 --> 00:10:58,690
it was uh, a process.
273
00:10:58,692 --> 00:10:59,824
And, and a constant,
274
00:10:59,826 --> 00:11:01,926
like trying to get
bits and pieces of files
275
00:11:01,928 --> 00:11:03,261
and reconnect them all together.
276
00:11:03,263 --> 00:11:04,963
And that was kind of
a pain in the ass.
277

00:11:06,866 --> 00:11:10,201

You know, 1998,
was when it really felt like
278
00:11:10,203 --> 00:11:11,436
okay, this is real.
279
00:11:11,438 --> 00:11:13,471
This is the way I'm going
to listen to music.
280
00:11:14,473 --> 00:11:15,974
It became clear
that the computer
281
00:11:15,976 --> 00:11:16,941
was going to be the place
282
00:11:16,943 --> 00:11:18,476
that we would store our music.
283
00:11:18,978 --> 00:11:22,781
Then you started looking
for tools to get the music
284
00:11:22,783 --> 00:11:24,816
into the computer,
tools to play it back,
285
00:11:24,818 --> 00:11:27,052
tools to manage it.
286
00:11:27,353 --> 00:11:30,088
I remember the first MP3
I ever downloaded.
287
00:11:30,090 --> 00:11:33,992
I remember the first time
I ever, you know...
288
00:11:33,994 --> 00:11:36,561
basically, ever played
a track from the internet.
289
00:11:36,563 --> 00:11:37,429
And I remember just thinking,
290

00:11:37,431 --> 00:11:38,997

even though
it's just information
291
00:11:38,999 --> 00:11:42,233
it's just audio,
there's such
a crazy amount of emotion.
292
00:11:42,235 --> 00:11:43,368
The fact that you could
293
00:11:43,370 --> 00:11:45,003
kind of share emotion
over the internet,
294
00:11:45,005 --> 00:11:47,338
was so, it was really wild
to think that...
295
00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:49,507
Something so important to you,
296
00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:51,643
you could just trade so freely.
297
00:11:51,645 --> 00:11:53,445
So I think it was um...
298
00:11:53,447 --> 00:11:55,113
you know, its,
its hard to quantify
299
00:11:55,115 --> 00:11:56,414
how important it was.
300
00:11:58,884 --> 00:11:59,784
I was a freshman
301
00:11:59,786 --> 00:12:01,553
at Northeastern University
in Boston.
302
00:12:01,821 --> 00:12:03,988
One of my roommates
was into MP3s.
303

00:12:04,156 --> 00:12:06,024

Yeah, he would skip class
and sit home
304
00:12:06,026 --> 00:12:08,359
and download music
and he was always complaining
305
00:12:08,361 --> 00:12:10,662
about how unreliable
the technology was.
306
00:12:10,830 --> 00:12:12,397
Where was his,
what were his favorite bands?
307
00:12:12,399 --> 00:12:14,966
I don't know.
He listened
to a lot of really weird stuff.
308
00:12:14,968 --> 00:12:16,701
I had very incompatible
tastes with him.
309
00:12:16,703 --> 00:12:18,103
But, um...
310
00:12:18,105 --> 00:12:19,437
Like every roommate in college.
311
00:12:19,439 --> 00:12:21,106
Yeah, which, it, that's why
it was a struggle.
312
00:12:21,108 --> 00:12:22,207
I didn't want to make it
any easier
313
00:12:22,209 --> 00:12:23,708
for him to find that music.
314
00:12:24,243 --> 00:12:26,811
But no and he, you know,
he was complaining a lot
315
00:12:26,813 --> 00:12:27,946
and that sort of signaled

me that
316
00:12:27,948 --> 00:12:30,281
there was a potential uh,
there's a problem
317
00:12:30,283 --> 00:12:32,150
that could be solved
and I just looked into it
318
00:12:32,152 --> 00:12:34,219
and um, came up
with the solution,
319
00:12:34,221 --> 00:12:35,220
which ultimately
320
00:12:35,222 --> 00:12:36,321
became Napster.
321
00:12:36,323 --> 00:12:38,623
It felt like, you know,
this way of sharing media
322
00:12:38,625 --> 00:12:39,858
between people
323
00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:41,025
could be used
for sharing anything.
324
00:12:41,327 --> 00:12:42,660
We started with music,
but it made sense
325
00:12:42,662 --> 00:12:44,129
that it could work
for anything else.
326
00:12:44,131 --> 00:12:45,430
It also felt like...
327
00:12:45,698 --> 00:12:47,565
This whole model f
or sharing media
328
00:12:47,567 --> 00:12:49,134

was superior to like,

329
00:12:49,136 --> 00:12:50,535
going and buying an album.
330
00:12:51,237 --> 00:12:55,140
Being able to uh, both...um...
331
00:12:55,142 --> 00:12:56,508
Buy tracks as singles
332
00:12:56,510 --> 00:12:58,476
or share them with your friends
333
00:12:58,478 --> 00:12:59,577
and find stuff
your friends like,
334
00:12:59,579 --> 00:13:03,314
uh, and then being able to uh,
you know...
335
00:13:03,549 --> 00:13:05,984
Basically, to have access
to the entire universe
336
00:13:05,986 --> 00:13:07,252
of recorded music.
337
00:13:07,419 --> 00:13:09,220
Where independent creators
338
00:13:09,222 --> 00:13:10,655
could publish directly.
339
00:13:10,657 --> 00:13:12,824
It just seemed from every,
in every way,
340
00:13:12,826 --> 00:13:14,793
it seemed like a better system.
341
00:13:15,995 --> 00:13:19,330
So, I would spend
a weekend working on it
342

00:13:19,332 --> 00:13:21,666

You know, every time
I had to go back to school,
343
00:13:21,668 --> 00:13:23,101
I'd kind of drag myself back.
344
00:13:23,103 --> 00:13:24,369
Two days would become
three days.
345
00:13:24,371 --> 00:13:25,570
I'd miss a day of classes,
346
00:13:25,572 --> 00:13:26,905
I'd miss two days of classes.
347
00:13:27,072 --> 00:13:28,640
It was just becoming
more and more difficult
348
00:13:28,642 --> 00:13:30,575
for me to get myself
back to school
349
00:13:30,577 --> 00:13:31,843
with any enthusiasm.
350
00:13:33,612 --> 00:13:36,314
My cousin was actually
driving me back to school
351
00:13:36,316 --> 00:13:38,216
and when I got there,
I thought about it
352
00:13:38,218 --> 00:13:39,284
and finally realized
353
00:13:39,286 --> 00:13:40,451
just what a sense
of relief I had
354
00:13:40,453 --> 00:13:42,687
when I thought about the idea of
just, just leaving.
355

00:13:43,255 --> 00:13:46,057

And that was the last time
I really ever came close
356
00:13:46,059 --> 00:13:47,425
to the campus.
Didn't pick up any of my stuff.
357
00:13:47,427 --> 00:13:49,627
Didn't tell my, my roommates.
358
00:13:49,629 --> 00:13:51,930
Just, just went back
and I remember just feeling
359
00:13:51,932 --> 00:13:53,131
so excited.
360
00:13:53,133 --> 00:13:55,033
He came in and he was just like,
361
00:13:55,035 --> 00:13:56,534
I need to talk to you guys,
its really important.
362
00:13:57,036 --> 00:13:59,037
And I go, okay,
Shawn and so he came in
363
00:13:59,039 --> 00:14:01,339
and uh, he says, uh...
364
00:14:02,107 --> 00:14:03,174
You're not going to be
happy about this.
365
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:04,876
And he was looking at me
and I'm like what?
366
00:14:04,878 --> 00:14:06,444
And he was like, '
I'm gonna drop out of school'.
367
00:14:06,446 --> 00:14:07,979
And I said, 'oh no!'
368

00:14:08,347 --> 00:14:09,480

Why would you do that?
369
00:14:10,182 --> 00:14:11,282
And he's, you don't understand.
370
00:14:11,284 --> 00:14:14,552
I have this idea,
I have to go with it now.
371
00:14:14,554 --> 00:14:16,621
I have to do it now.
It's now or never.
372
00:14:16,623 --> 00:14:18,957
I feel like this is
the time for me to do it.
373
00:14:19,158 --> 00:14:20,658
And I don't think
you'll be disappointed.
374
00:14:28,334 --> 00:14:29,601
I actually spent time working
375
00:14:29,603 --> 00:14:33,404
in Hole, Massachusetts,
which is about 45 minutes
376
00:14:33,406 --> 00:14:34,772
south of Boston.
377
00:14:34,774 --> 00:14:37,475
Um, just, this
converted restaurant.
378
00:14:37,477 --> 00:14:38,676
Like three desks in the place.
379
00:14:38,678 --> 00:14:40,845
I just sat there
and worked on it.
380
00:14:40,847 --> 00:14:42,180
Ummm...
381
00:14:42,581 --> 00:14:44,282

For a few months

until it was actually
382
00:14:44,284 --> 00:14:45,683
building a user base.
383
00:14:45,685 --> 00:14:47,151
I remember I got to go up
and hang out with him
384
00:14:47,153 --> 00:14:49,087
and he'd be like pizza
was everywhere, and ...
385
00:14:49,089 --> 00:14:51,122
he was just jamming out
to Led Zeppelin.
386
00:14:51,124 --> 00:14:52,991
He'd like sleep at the office,
on the floor.
387
00:14:52,993 --> 00:14:54,926
He'd like, he never
left his computer, you know.
388
00:14:54,928 --> 00:14:56,895
Its not hyperbole,
it was an actual closet.
389
00:14:57,796 --> 00:14:58,830
I think he might have some pride
390
00:14:58,832 --> 00:15:01,165
or just want something more,
but for me,
391
00:15:01,167 --> 00:15:03,034
it was, I was having so much fun
building it,
392
00:15:03,036 --> 00:15:04,235
I just didn't care.
393
00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:05,670
You know, I get occasionally
394

00:15:05,672 --> 00:15:07,305

a little bit uncomfortable
when people would show up
395
00:15:07,307 --> 00:15:09,140
and you'd be crawling out of,
you know,
396
00:15:09,142 --> 00:15:09,908
your sleeping bag.
397
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:12,143
So Fanning had written
his version one
398
00:15:12,145 --> 00:15:13,678
and being not
professionally trained,
399
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,214
uh, not trained at all...
400
00:15:16,448 --> 00:15:18,850
Uh, and just, just having
his ideas and ah,
401
00:15:18,852 --> 00:15:20,885
here's a computer
and this wonder for learning
402
00:15:20,887 --> 00:15:22,220
and for for absorbing, uh,
403
00:15:22,222 --> 00:15:23,988
we'll just go and try
and make it work.
404
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:27,558
And it didn't work.
Like every, everyone's
first hello world program.
405
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,761
His was file sharing stuff.
406
00:15:29,763 --> 00:15:31,729
Didn't work,
so listen to the group for help.

407
00:15:32,097 --> 00:15:33,831
And I was there.
408
00:15:34,099 --> 00:15:35,833
At the start was
pretty much myself
409
00:15:35,835 --> 00:15:38,069
and a lot of people online
that were helping out
410
00:15:38,071 --> 00:15:39,370
just to make it work.
411
00:15:39,372 --> 00:15:41,306
Helping fix problems,
stuff like that.
412
00:15:41,308 --> 00:15:42,640
He sort of asked, hey, how,
413
00:15:42,642 --> 00:15:44,842
This thing keeps crashing.
What do you think?
414
00:15:44,844 --> 00:15:47,111
But unlike anyone else,
415
00:15:47,113 --> 00:15:49,147
he wouldn't let us
see the source code.
416
00:15:49,149 --> 00:15:50,081
I was like, oh really?
417
00:15:50,083 --> 00:15:51,950
Well that sounds
like it's probably
418
00:15:51,952 --> 00:15:54,419
a - a buffer overrun
or an unchecked
battery condition.
419
00:15:54,421 --> 00:15:55,586
Or something like that.

420
00:15:55,588 --> 00:15:57,588
And show, show us the code
and we'll fix it for you.
421
00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:59,190
And he was like, no.
422
00:15:59,591 --> 00:16:02,226
Okay. This was kind of cool
because
423
00:16:02,228 --> 00:16:03,394
it came out as a challenge.
424
00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:04,762
It's like,
I'm not going to tell you,
425
00:16:04,764 --> 00:16:06,431
but I'm going to keep soliciting
for help.
426
00:16:06,433 --> 00:16:08,366
So, we're all hackers.
This is what we do.
427
00:16:08,634 --> 00:16:10,201
We, you know, [stammers]
428
00:16:10,203 --> 00:16:12,036
establish Commercial Vendor X
429
00:16:12,038 --> 00:16:14,205
does not want to share
anything with us.
430
00:16:14,207 --> 00:16:15,840
Yet, we are going
to find a way in.
431
00:16:15,842 --> 00:16:17,875
Just the idea that
we were gonna build
432
00:16:17,877 --> 00:16:20,411
the first decentralized

file system.
433
00:16:20,413 --> 00:16:22,981
I think the patent, actually,
the Napster patent
434
00:16:22,983 --> 00:16:24,248
uses this terminology.
435
00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:26,551
You talk about a
distributed file system.
436
00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:28,152
Since 1998.
437
00:16:28,154 --> 00:16:29,954
We've been discussing it
with various different people
438
00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:32,056
in our community
and we've been told
439
00:16:32,058 --> 00:16:35,159
by a lot of, you know,
pretty experienced
440
00:16:35,161 --> 00:16:36,160
technical minds
441
00:16:36,162 --> 00:16:38,596
that the technical challenge
associated
442
00:16:38,598 --> 00:16:41,332
with a decentralized file system
443
00:16:41,334 --> 00:16:43,034
was actually too difficult.
444
00:16:44,403 --> 00:16:46,237
It was believed
that this wouldn't scale.
445
00:16:53,045 --> 00:16:57,148
He would load up this app

and it would basically

446
00:16:57,150 --> 00:16:58,816
connect to one of our servers
447
00:16:58,818 --> 00:17:02,286
and ask for a Napster server
448
00:17:02,288 --> 00:17:04,122
that would be accessible
449
00:17:04,124 --> 00:17:05,623
in like the lowest
possible load.
450
00:17:05,625 --> 00:17:08,426
Allowing you to search the uh...
451
00:17:08,428 --> 00:17:11,863
file names to find,
you know, what, whatever
452
00:17:11,865 --> 00:17:18,469
you know, noncommercial
uh, legal, legal music...
453
00:17:18,471 --> 00:17:19,604
uh, was available.
454
00:17:19,606 --> 00:17:21,806
But you would basically
have a, a chance
455
00:17:21,808 --> 00:17:23,975
to kind of search all,
some of all those files
456
00:17:23,977 --> 00:17:25,710
that were out there, that once
you've decided you wanted one,
457
00:17:25,712 --> 00:17:28,679
it would actually, um,
facilitate the connection,
458
00:17:28,681 --> 00:17:32,550
would happen directly to that,

'that um, that source.

459
00:17:33,052 --> 00:17:35,186
It's funny that a lot of the
file sharing technologies
460
00:17:35,188 --> 00:17:36,888
are stressed when people
talk about Napster.
461
00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:39,524
But as I said, I mean
Sean and I met through IRC,
462
00:17:39,526 --> 00:17:40,625
which is like a chat community,
you know,
463
00:17:40,627 --> 00:17:43,861
a chat based community.
And that's a huge part
464
00:17:43,863 --> 00:17:45,163
of like why
we created it as well.
465
00:17:45,165 --> 00:17:46,197
You know,
just wanted to create a way
466
00:17:46,199 --> 00:17:47,832
to meet people through music.
467
00:17:47,834 --> 00:17:49,834
Sometimes that's overlooked
and yeah,
468
00:17:49,836 --> 00:17:51,335
I think that you know,
what we're providing
469
00:17:51,337 --> 00:17:52,637
is just a way
for people to share
470
00:17:52,639 --> 00:17:54,505
their personal material
and meet people

471
00:17:54,507 --> 00:17:56,074
with similar interests
and communicate with them.
472
00:17:56,341 --> 00:17:58,042
That's exactly how people
discover music
473
00:17:58,044 --> 00:17:59,277
in the first place. You know,
474
00:17:59,279 --> 00:18:00,645
you find out about music
from your friends
475
00:18:00,647 --> 00:18:02,547
who maybe listen
476
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:03,815
to something similar
to what you listen to.
477
00:18:03,817 --> 00:18:05,716
And they turn you on
to something
completely new.
478
00:18:05,718 --> 00:18:06,918
You go out and buy the CD.
479
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,053
That's how people
experience music
480
00:18:09,055 --> 00:18:10,621
and that's a big part
of the experience.
481
00:18:11,023 --> 00:18:13,157
But this was the first time
I know of,
482
00:18:13,159 --> 00:18:14,592
in mainstream history,
483
00:18:14,594 --> 00:18:16,527

where people had a social life

online.
484
00:18:16,529 --> 00:18:18,596
And then after Napster went down
a few years later,
485
00:18:18,598 --> 00:18:19,931
started hearing
about Friendster.
486
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:23,568
Myspace and then of course,
Facebook and all that.
487
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:25,002
But, but um, everyone
just thinks of it
488
00:18:25,004 --> 00:18:27,705
as being the file sharing
technology,
489
00:18:27,707 --> 00:18:29,373
but I really think
that it was the seed
490
00:18:29,375 --> 00:18:30,475
of that stuff too.
491
00:18:30,477 --> 00:18:32,310
We were basically, you know,
492
00:18:32,312 --> 00:18:33,244
trying to create a platform
493
00:18:33,246 --> 00:18:35,813
that would allow music
to be shared
494
00:18:35,815 --> 00:18:36,747
more widely uh,
495
00:18:36,749 --> 00:18:38,850
on a larger scale
than ever before.
496

00:18:39,017 --> 00:18:40,451

That would um...
497
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,188
That would galvanize
enormous excitement.
498
00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:45,957
Would, it would re-energize,
499
00:18:45,959 --> 00:18:48,259
re-energize the conversation
about music
500
00:18:48,261 --> 00:18:50,461
and, and ultimately
that would lead
501
00:18:50,463 --> 00:18:51,729
to a golden age of music.
502
00:18:51,731 --> 00:18:53,131
We knew it was a long way off
503
00:18:53,133 --> 00:18:56,167
from all the music
being available digitally.
504
00:18:56,436 --> 00:18:59,704
I mean you opened up Napster
and there it was.
505
00:18:59,706 --> 00:19:01,272
Its difficult to
describe to people
506
00:19:01,274 --> 00:19:02,974
who weren't experiencing
at that time,
507
00:19:02,976 --> 00:19:06,544
how much material
was suddenly available.
508
00:19:06,546 --> 00:19:07,945
I mean there has
never been a time

509
00:19:07,947 --> 00:19:10,748
before or since that you could,
you could get
510
00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:12,250
as many different things online.
511
00:19:12,252 --> 00:19:14,952
And experiences,
many different kinds of music.
512
00:19:15,454 --> 00:19:16,921
And of course,
what people forget is,
513
00:19:16,923 --> 00:19:19,056
what was interesting was not t
hat they could get
514
00:19:19,058 --> 00:19:20,825
the latest Madonna album
for free.
515
00:19:20,827 --> 00:19:22,994
It's that they could get
all different versions
516
00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:25,429
of recordings of
particular music
517
00:19:25,431 --> 00:19:27,832
from all the way back
to the beginning of recording
518
00:19:27,834 --> 00:19:30,468
available in
this library-like forum.
519
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:32,069
The vast majority of which,
520
00:19:32,071 --> 00:19:34,939
was not accessible
commercially at all.
521
00:19:34,941 --> 00:19:37,108

And you know,

I just felt like this was,
522
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:38,609
this was one of the
great moments
523
00:19:38,611 --> 00:19:39,443
in human history.
524
00:19:39,445 --> 00:19:40,178
And I still do.
525
00:19:40,180 --> 00:19:44,081
But of course, uh, great moments
in human history
526
00:19:44,083 --> 00:19:47,285
usually have uh...
527
00:19:47,287 --> 00:19:49,754
...an opposition
528
00:19:49,756 --> 00:19:52,190
and it is exactly
uh, proportional
529
00:19:52,192 --> 00:19:53,891
to their greatness.
530
00:19:57,162 --> 00:19:59,463
So it was in LA,
it was the Four Seasons Hotel.
531
00:19:59,465 --> 00:20:01,699
It was all of t
he top label heads.
532
00:20:02,234 --> 00:20:04,635
And a lot of them knew
that we'd filed a lawsuit
533
00:20:04,637 --> 00:20:06,837
against this kind of
rogue website,
534
00:20:06,839 --> 00:20:08,806

but not too many of them

were paying attention
535
00:20:08,808 --> 00:20:09,874
to what it was.
536
00:20:09,876 --> 00:20:12,109
So I set up a computer
and I said,
537
00:20:12,111 --> 00:20:14,645
'okay, you know,
Tommy what's your, you know,
538
00:20:14,647 --> 00:20:16,380
give me your latest single,
or Michelle,
539
00:20:16,382 --> 00:20:18,216
what's your latest single,
you know.
540
00:20:18,417 --> 00:20:20,651
Richard, give me
your latest single.
541
00:20:20,653 --> 00:20:24,021
Literally, it, we played
like stump the Napster.
542
00:20:24,023 --> 00:20:25,990
And it was,
[stammers]
543
00:20:25,992 --> 00:20:27,158
It was quite a sight.
544
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,060
All the heads
of all these record labels
545
00:20:29,228 --> 00:20:30,127
freaking out
546
00:20:30,129 --> 00:20:32,296
that a lot of pre-releases even,
547

00:20:32,298 --> 00:20:33,831

were, were on there.
548
00:20:33,833 --> 00:20:34,966
Um, I would say,
549
00:20:34,968 --> 00:20:37,034
that was a pretty big
aha moment.
550
00:20:37,803 --> 00:20:39,737
We saw the clicks of the numbers
551
00:20:39,739 --> 00:20:41,038
and that's what they
were downloading
552
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,306
at that particular time.
553
00:20:43,308 --> 00:20:44,875
That was shocking.
554
00:20:46,144 --> 00:20:47,778
Not that it wasn't
happening before,
555
00:20:47,780 --> 00:20:49,647
and not that we were naive.
556
00:20:49,649 --> 00:20:51,315
But we actually saw it.
557
00:20:52,217 --> 00:20:53,651
And that was startling.
558
00:20:53,653 --> 00:20:55,353
For all of us that were
at that meeting that day.
559
00:20:55,821 --> 00:20:57,021
If some day soon
you can store
560
00:20:57,023 --> 00:20:58,055
your whole music collection

561
00:20:58,057 --> 00:21:00,124
on your hard drive,
instead of your shelves,
562
00:21:00,126 --> 00:21:02,493
what's going to happen
to record stores?
563
00:21:02,995 --> 00:21:05,863
<i>I thought that the way</i>
<i>that people got music</i>
564
00:21:05,865 --> 00:21:07,632
<i>for the last 50 years worked.</i>
565
00:21:08,267 --> 00:21:10,468
<i>You went to the record shop,</i>
<i>you bought a record,</i>
566
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:12,203
<i>you took it home</i>
<i>and you played it.</i>
567
00:21:12,205 --> 00:21:13,471
You loved it.
568
00:21:13,705 --> 00:21:15,106
You went and seen the guys live,
569
00:21:15,108 --> 00:21:16,440
Everybody lived
happily ever after.
570
00:21:16,608 --> 00:21:18,476
There are no record stores
anymore.
571
00:21:18,478 --> 00:21:20,144
Or hardly any, you know.
572
00:21:20,146 --> 00:21:22,280
Amoeba on the West Coast.
573
00:21:22,282 --> 00:21:24,815
And there's a few,
a few in England.

574
00:21:24,983 --> 00:21:26,150
But it's gone.
575
00:21:26,585 --> 00:21:29,320
I mean I, I never thought
I'd live to see that.
576
00:21:30,889 --> 00:21:34,692
Great stores like Tower Music
are gone.
577
00:21:36,528 --> 00:21:38,562
This business seems
like it survives
578
00:21:38,564 --> 00:21:41,766
on a lot of older albums
and reselling of that,
579
00:21:41,768 --> 00:21:44,101
so, this one, we definitely saw
580
00:21:44,103 --> 00:21:46,737
new CDs and new albums not
being bought as much,
581
00:21:46,739 --> 00:21:49,273
but the bigger stores,
it totally destroyed them.
582
00:21:49,275 --> 00:21:52,977
'Cause no one wanted to go
to the store anymore.
583
00:21:52,979 --> 00:21:54,512
They can just get it
on their computer.
584
00:21:54,514 --> 00:21:56,080
Or punch in whatever
thing they want.
585
00:21:56,082 --> 00:21:57,581
I mean even iTunes now
586
00:21:57,583 --> 00:21:59,583
is destroying

the music industry.

587
00:21:59,885 --> 00:22:01,952
'Cause of that, people can buy
the song they want
588
00:22:01,954 --> 00:22:05,089
and listen to it for one time
and that's it.
589
00:22:06,958 --> 00:22:10,795
It is now the number one record
<i>in America...</i>
590
00:22:10,797 --> 00:22:16,367
<i>[ 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love']</i>
591
00:22:16,768 --> 00:22:18,769
The fifties
was a singles business.
592
00:22:18,970 --> 00:22:21,439
The sixties, mid-sixties
is when the albums really
593
00:22:21,441 --> 00:22:23,207
started to be important.
594
00:22:23,342 --> 00:22:24,842
And before that...
595
00:22:25,310 --> 00:22:29,847
A, a hit single, to an artist
was free promotion.
596
00:22:30,816 --> 00:22:32,049
They did, it wasn't, it wasn't
597
00:22:32,051 --> 00:22:32,917
a source of revenue.
598
00:22:32,919 --> 00:22:35,152
The source of revenue
came from the fact that
599
00:22:35,154 --> 00:22:36,487
if they had a hit, the could get

600
00:22:36,489 --> 00:22:38,255
a couple of thousand dollars
a night, more.
601
00:22:38,790 --> 00:22:41,959
Good morning, this is Ron Lundy,
602
00:22:41,961 --> 00:22:43,527
how you doing
on a Friday morning
603
00:22:43,529 --> 00:22:45,563
in the greatest city
in the world.
604
00:22:46,064 --> 00:22:47,398
[jazz music]
605
00:22:47,632 --> 00:22:49,467
Little Manischewitz.
606
00:22:49,701 --> 00:22:51,168
From my perspective, uh,
607
00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:55,172
I believe that the point
of labels is to,
608
00:22:55,174 --> 00:22:56,140
in a sense,
609
00:22:56,142 --> 00:22:57,775
act as a filter.
610
00:22:59,378 --> 00:23:02,847
In that regard, if Blue Note
had signed an artist,
611
00:23:02,849 --> 00:23:05,015
you would feel,
well that was an artist
612
00:23:05,017 --> 00:23:06,784
worth listening to.
613

00:23:06,786 --> 00:23:08,052

Because it was on Blue Note
614
00:23:08,054 --> 00:23:09,620
and they made great records.
615
00:23:13,592 --> 00:23:15,459
All these major labels,
616
00:23:15,461 --> 00:23:19,330
the ones that existed
and the ones that still exist,
617
00:23:19,332 --> 00:23:21,899
were started as
phonograph companies.
618
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:23,634
RCA Victor was
619
00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:26,837
the Victor Talking Machine
Company.
620
00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:29,673
EMI was the gramophone company.
621
00:23:29,675 --> 00:23:32,076
Columbia was
the Columbia Phonograph Company.
622
00:23:32,078 --> 00:23:34,779
And then when Rock-n-Roll
and LPs
623
00:23:34,781 --> 00:23:38,416
spurred the sales of vinyl,
they figured
624
00:23:38,418 --> 00:23:40,885
they didn't need
to make furniture anymore.
625
00:23:40,887 --> 00:23:43,554
Which was what they referred
to it as.
626

00:23:43,556 --> 00:23:45,222

Technology's been
very beneficial
627
00:23:45,224 --> 00:23:46,223
to the record companies.
628
00:23:46,225 --> 00:23:47,625
Before.
629
00:23:47,627 --> 00:23:51,295
78s, when 78s
became 33 and a thirds,
630
00:23:51,297 --> 00:23:53,330
you could sell
all your music again.
631
00:23:53,598 --> 00:23:55,065
When they became CDs,
632
00:23:55,067 --> 00:23:57,001
you could sell all
your music again.
633
00:23:57,003 --> 00:23:58,636
When the CD was first initiated,
634
00:23:58,638 --> 00:24:00,771
it was a true boom
at that particular point.
635
00:24:00,939 --> 00:24:03,474
The eighties were
a very, very fertile period
636
00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:06,277
for giant music sales.
637
00:24:07,179 --> 00:24:09,413
Not as much as when
we got to the nineties,
638
00:24:09,415 --> 00:24:10,981
which it was commonplace
639
00:24:10,983 --> 00:24:13,717

to sell 10 or
15 or 20 million albums.
640
00:24:15,687 --> 00:24:17,755
You know, the record companies,
in the '80s
641
00:24:17,757 --> 00:24:21,125
had sort of uh, eliminated
their technology departments.
642
00:24:21,693 --> 00:24:24,595
Their engineers,
and pretty much seeded it
643
00:24:24,597 --> 00:24:25,996
to the electronics industry.
644
00:24:28,633 --> 00:24:30,434
All of a sudden, technology
645
00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:32,603
and how music was
gonna be recorded
646
00:24:32,605 --> 00:24:33,804
went somewhere else.
647
00:24:34,973 --> 00:24:37,441
It was sorta,
kinda the beginning
648
00:24:37,443 --> 00:24:40,077
of the corporatization
more of America.
649
00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:44,248
A&M was getting acquired,
Island was getting acquired.
650
00:24:44,783 --> 00:24:46,016
A lot of the great labels
651
00:24:46,018 --> 00:24:49,753
that were independently owned
were falling away
652

00:24:49,755 --> 00:24:52,623

and getting put
into the landscape
653
00:24:52,625 --> 00:24:54,325
of the corporations.
654
00:24:55,594 --> 00:24:57,361
Once you had CDs came out,
655
00:24:57,363 --> 00:24:59,330
where then in a digital world
656
00:24:59,332 --> 00:25:01,699
where the copy is as good
as the master.
657
00:25:01,701 --> 00:25:03,467
And it's amazing
658
00:25:03,469 --> 00:25:05,035
that they didn't recognize
659
00:25:05,037 --> 00:25:07,204
that there was going to be
a huge change.
660
00:25:07,339 --> 00:25:09,273
I think it came back
and hit them with a,
661
00:25:09,275 --> 00:25:10,508
with a wallop, you know.
662
00:25:10,510 --> 00:25:12,843
Um, with the internet.
663
00:25:13,211 --> 00:25:17,114
The MP3, digital music
for the quick download
664
00:25:17,116 --> 00:25:19,483
is probably the
most substantive change
665
00:25:19,485 --> 00:25:23,354
in music since maybe

the advent of digitalized music

666
00:25:23,356 --> 00:25:27,324
or the compact disc,
or maybe even the LP.
667
00:25:27,326 --> 00:25:29,226
It has changed everything.
668
00:25:29,561 --> 00:25:30,995
Music is nothing but
669
00:25:30,997 --> 00:25:32,663
algorithmic processes right now.
670
00:25:32,665 --> 00:25:34,131
Every time you encode it,
671
00:25:34,133 --> 00:25:35,232
you put it through an algorithm,
672
00:25:35,234 --> 00:25:36,800
you put an envelope around it,
673
00:25:36,802 --> 00:25:38,469
you zip it up, and that's it.
674
00:25:38,471 --> 00:25:39,904
This is the first time
technology
675
00:25:39,906 --> 00:25:42,806
actually attacked
the existing system
676
00:25:42,808 --> 00:25:44,575
and started to take it away.
677
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:46,744
The Music Industry
was fairly constrained
678
00:25:46,746 --> 00:25:49,046
for you know, 75 to, you know,
679
00:25:49,048 --> 00:25:50,347

maybe even 100 years

in terms of like,
680
00:25:50,349 --> 00:25:52,816
how music was
found, sourced, developed,
681
00:25:52,818 --> 00:25:55,486
created, distributed,
marketed, promoted.
682
00:25:55,488 --> 00:25:58,155
Uh, and it was a fairly
locked you know,
683
00:25:58,157 --> 00:26:01,926
paradigm and uh,
Napster created an avenue
684
00:26:01,928 --> 00:26:04,228
for consumers to step
out of that.
685
00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:06,730
Which was superior
in almost every way.
686
00:26:06,732 --> 00:26:08,499
Um, you know, it offered,
you know,
687
00:26:08,501 --> 00:26:10,067
greater convenience, obviously.
688
00:26:10,069 --> 00:26:13,370
A much improved price,
choice, you know.
689
00:26:13,372 --> 00:26:16,073
All of these things really
conspired to you know uh,
690
00:26:16,075 --> 00:26:19,143
produce an amazing
consumer experience.
691
00:26:25,784 --> 00:26:28,185
<i>Welcome to Valley</i>

<i>of the Dollars.</i>

692
00:26:28,553 --> 00:26:31,488
The valley and
the entire Bay Area, in fact,
693
00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:33,424
are at the center
of a revolution...
694
00:26:33,426 --> 00:26:36,327
This was the you know, uh,
height of the bubble.
695
00:26:36,928 --> 00:26:38,462
Uh, in the valley, you know,
696
00:26:38,464 --> 00:26:41,665
uh, in, in the Bay Area
and in San Francisco,
697
00:26:41,667 --> 00:26:45,536
um, there was a euphoric amount
of optimism.
698
00:26:48,607 --> 00:26:52,242
Anywhere that you went,
um, people were happy.
699
00:26:52,244 --> 00:26:53,310
Because everybody thought
700
00:26:53,312 --> 00:26:55,346
that they were
gonna be filthy rich.
701
00:26:55,348 --> 00:26:56,947
Whether they were
involved in a startup
702
00:26:56,949 --> 00:27:00,484
or not, um, it, there was,
it was a magical time.
703
00:27:00,486 --> 00:27:02,920
You thought
you would be filthy rich.

704
00:27:03,088 --> 00:27:04,221
I actually never did.
705
00:27:04,223 --> 00:27:05,522
Oh come on.
706
00:27:05,524 --> 00:27:07,524
Uh, I actually never did,
but anyway...
707
00:27:07,526 --> 00:27:08,592
Okay, sorry. It's your story.
708
00:27:09,894 --> 00:27:11,528
So basically, you, you know...
709
00:27:11,530 --> 00:27:13,664
you would, you would uh,
710
00:27:13,666 --> 00:27:15,633
that really wrecked everything.
711
00:27:15,635 --> 00:27:16,834
Sorry.
712
00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:17,701
You can start over.
713
00:27:17,703 --> 00:27:18,602
Yeah, let me start over.
714
00:27:18,737 --> 00:27:19,770
So uh...
715
00:27:19,772 --> 00:27:23,340
Did you pass around fliers
at, on campus, or...?
716
00:27:23,342 --> 00:27:24,975
No, it was completely
word of mouth, it was...
717
00:27:24,977 --> 00:27:26,977
I think we spread it initially
through IRC,

718
00:27:26,979 --> 00:27:28,212
which is Internet Relay Chat.
719
00:27:28,214 --> 00:27:29,647
Its basically
a network of people
720
00:27:29,649 --> 00:27:30,948
who just sort of congregate
721
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:32,049
around different ideas and
722
00:27:32,051 --> 00:27:33,517
we started
a little Napster community.
723
00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:34,785
And they just
sort of spread the idea.
724
00:27:34,787 --> 00:27:35,886
It started spreading
through you know,
725
00:27:35,888 --> 00:27:37,187
college, you know,
universities and,
726
00:27:37,189 --> 00:27:39,990
The first point at which
it started to really take
727
00:27:39,992 --> 00:27:42,860
was, there was
a, an article published.
728
00:27:42,862 --> 00:27:44,728
It was one of these
internet news sites,
729
00:27:44,730 --> 00:27:45,829
it might have been ZD Net.
730
00:27:46,364 --> 00:27:47,665
And you know they touched

731
00:27:47,667 --> 00:27:49,700
on the legal issues,
but we weren't sued at the time,
732
00:27:49,702 --> 00:27:51,135
we were still
working in Massachusetts.
733
00:27:51,137 --> 00:27:53,771
And uh,
that spurred a huge response
734
00:27:53,773 --> 00:27:54,938
of downloads.
735
00:27:54,940 --> 00:27:57,241
Before that, it was, getting
a good response
736
00:27:57,243 --> 00:27:58,442
and it was spreading somewhat,
737
00:27:58,444 --> 00:28:00,711
but um, that kind of
kicked off the whole
738
00:28:00,713 --> 00:28:01,945
you know, period of insanity.
739
00:28:02,947 --> 00:28:04,314
With the,
the business side of it,
740
00:28:04,316 --> 00:28:05,182
we eventually took money
741
00:28:05,184 --> 00:28:07,418
from John Fanning's friend,
Yosiamo.
742
00:28:07,919 --> 00:28:10,220
Sean Parker and I moved out
to Northern California.
743
00:28:11,056 --> 00:28:12,690
You know, we uh,
hired some people

744
00:28:12,692 --> 00:28:13,824
and it became a company.
745
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:15,859
At the beginning,
746
00:28:15,861 --> 00:28:17,661
it was just like
Parker and Shawn
747
00:28:17,663 --> 00:28:19,496
and he surrounded himself
748
00:28:19,498 --> 00:28:20,497
with a bunch of friends
from Cape
749
00:28:20,499 --> 00:28:22,399
and they were
all good at computers
750
00:28:22,401 --> 00:28:23,901
and they're just all you know,
it was just like
751
00:28:23,903 --> 00:28:25,436
basically having
a bunch of teenagers
752
00:28:25,438 --> 00:28:26,370
in one place.
753
00:28:26,372 --> 00:28:27,337
It was pretty cool.
754
00:28:27,339 --> 00:28:30,574
The first time that I typed
a search term into Napster
755
00:28:30,576 --> 00:28:31,742
and saw the results came back,
756
00:28:31,744 --> 00:28:33,577
I think it was
The Rolling Stones.

757
00:28:33,579 --> 00:28:36,580
Uh, and I kind of pushed back
from the desk
758
00:28:36,582 --> 00:28:40,017
and I was just like, whoa,
like what just happened?
759
00:28:40,019 --> 00:28:42,853
Back in '99, over dial up,
760
00:28:42,855 --> 00:28:44,588
shitty browsers,
761
00:28:44,590 --> 00:28:47,858
web pages taking
seconds to load,
762
00:28:47,860 --> 00:28:50,861
here was
a fucking fast ap.
763
00:28:51,496 --> 00:28:53,964
That's what took me
from typing to submit,
764
00:28:53,966 --> 00:28:54,765
to phhht!
765
00:28:54,767 --> 00:28:55,899
What happened after that?
766
00:28:55,901 --> 00:28:58,769
Web pages were not doing
that at that time.
767
00:28:59,804 --> 00:29:02,406
And you talk about
my attraction to it and,
768
00:29:02,408 --> 00:29:04,708
and moving from Chicago
to the Bay Area,
769
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:06,210
kind of on a dime
because you know,

770
00:29:06,212 --> 00:29:07,611
of what I saw in the technology,
771
00:29:07,613 --> 00:29:09,246
I think you could probably,
to a man,
772
00:29:09,248 --> 00:29:11,115
go through the early people
that were there
773
00:29:11,117 --> 00:29:13,117
and they were drawn to it,
774
00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:14,618
almost like a tractor being...
775
00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:17,721
because it was
this emotionally true thing.
776
00:29:17,723 --> 00:29:19,656
So distracted, you had to leave.
777
00:29:19,658 --> 00:29:21,291
Right, whatever you
were doing right there,
778
00:29:21,293 --> 00:29:24,161
you just left.
I mean a lot of early
employees were,
779
00:29:24,163 --> 00:29:26,163
it's like, you did, undid
what and what and what?
780
00:29:26,165 --> 00:29:27,664
And changed all these things,
in your life and...
781
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:31,468
We lived together in San Mateo
in a small apartment at first.
782
00:29:31,703 --> 00:29:32,636

Like I said, he was bringing

783
00:29:32,638 --> 00:29:35,139
when they first got out there,
they didn't have like
784
00:29:35,141 --> 00:29:37,007
apartment stuff, so
it was just kind of like
785
00:29:37,009 --> 00:29:38,242
an Irish flop house,
you know.
786
00:29:38,244 --> 00:29:40,611
Like a bunch of people
sleeping on, you know,
787
00:29:40,613 --> 00:29:42,279
blow up mattresses
and things like that
788
00:29:42,281 --> 00:29:43,213
and you know.
789
00:29:43,681 --> 00:29:45,682
Fanning and Parker
were both trying
790
00:29:45,684 --> 00:29:47,751
to explain to me
what Napster was.
791
00:29:47,753 --> 00:29:49,586
I never used it,
never downloaded.
792
00:29:49,588 --> 00:29:50,687
And at the time,
793
00:29:50,689 --> 00:29:51,655
there were about
794
00:29:51,657 --> 00:29:53,423
30 to 40 thousand
registered users,
795

00:29:53,425 --> 00:29:54,591

so it wasn't that big.
796
00:29:55,059 --> 00:29:57,294
After asking
a million questions,
797
00:29:57,296 --> 00:29:59,263
and, and hearing
from both of them...
798
00:29:59,531 --> 00:30:00,697
Music will be ubiquitous
799
00:30:00,699 --> 00:30:03,000
you know, you'll be able
to get it on your cell phone,
800
00:30:03,002 --> 00:30:03,934
you'll be able to get
it on your stereo,
801
00:30:03,936 --> 00:30:05,135
you'll be able to get it on
802
00:30:05,137 --> 00:30:06,603
whatever the device
of the future is.
803
00:30:06,971 --> 00:30:09,339
And you'll be able to,
804
00:30:09,341 --> 00:30:11,441
I think people are willing
to pay for convenience.
805
00:30:11,443 --> 00:30:13,510
I had the 'aha' moment.
806
00:30:14,479 --> 00:30:17,581
And I knew
at that moment, that...
807
00:30:19,584 --> 00:30:22,920
...it was gonna be.
It was gonna be huge.
808

00:30:22,922 --> 00:30:24,555

There was no doubt in my mind.
809
00:30:25,356 --> 00:30:27,024
And it was a matter of...
810
00:30:28,426 --> 00:30:30,027
Could we...
811
00:30:30,029 --> 00:30:31,595
And-and-and then I started
812
00:30:31,597 --> 00:30:32,896
to change the language
I was using.
813
00:30:32,898 --> 00:30:34,798
Could we, keep the servers up?
814
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,867
Could, could we
make this thing scale?
815
00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:40,637
The area where we were
in desperate need of help,
816
00:30:40,639 --> 00:30:41,972
which was making
the servers scale,
817
00:30:41,974 --> 00:30:44,308
to support all the people
who wanted to use it.
818
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:46,243
Was his weak spot
as well,
819
00:30:46,245 --> 00:30:48,145
so he and Jordan worked
pretty closely together.
820
00:30:49,247 --> 00:30:51,281
What I remember most
about that time
821

00:30:51,283 --> 00:30:53,650

is sleeping under our desks.
822
00:30:54,786 --> 00:30:55,886
The loud music.
823
00:30:57,222 --> 00:31:01,425
It was all about making small,
incremental wins.
824
00:31:01,427 --> 00:31:03,193
With the code and
with the technology.
825
00:31:03,195 --> 00:31:04,628
It was...
826
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:06,296
It was a rocky few months.
827
00:31:06,298 --> 00:31:08,131
But every time
we had a little win,
828
00:31:08,133 --> 00:31:09,499
it was a big party.
829
00:31:10,134 --> 00:31:12,536
The night Ali and I figured out
830
00:31:12,538 --> 00:31:14,938
some seriously awesome stuff,
831
00:31:14,940 --> 00:31:17,708
uh, one of the capacity
limits we had
832
00:31:17,710 --> 00:31:18,976
was the ability to index
833
00:31:18,978 --> 00:31:21,278
more than a million files
per server.
834
00:31:21,779 --> 00:31:23,313
So four to eight thousand users

835
00:31:23,315 --> 00:31:24,314
could go on the server,
836
00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:26,483
uh, before the operating system,
837
00:31:26,485 --> 00:31:27,517
which was Linux, at the time,
838
00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:29,386
would drop to its knees.
839
00:31:29,687 --> 00:31:32,723
It was an amazing night
because we got it working.
840
00:31:33,191 --> 00:31:34,658
It was probably on the tail end
841
00:31:34,660 --> 00:31:36,760
of one of our
two to three day stints.
842
00:31:36,762 --> 00:31:40,130
Our, our binges,
and maybe, it was,
843
00:31:40,132 --> 00:31:41,164
it must have been
after midnight.
844
00:31:41,166 --> 00:31:44,601
And Ali and I
were just thrilled.
845
00:31:44,603 --> 00:31:47,771
We put on shades,
he put on his hat backwards
846
00:31:47,773 --> 00:31:49,706
and, and I was,
I got up on the table
847
00:31:49,708 --> 00:31:52,209
and I'm like ooh-ooh-ooh
and he was like

848
00:31:52,211 --> 00:31:54,378
this is this amazing
celebratory moment.
849
00:31:54,380 --> 00:31:55,712
And there was one picture
in particular,
850
00:31:55,714 --> 00:31:58,649
where we labeled it
one million files!
851
00:32:01,085 --> 00:32:03,353
Yeah,
we had those kinds of moments
all the time.
852
00:32:04,589 --> 00:32:08,191
By, I would say,
by December of '99,
853
00:32:08,193 --> 00:32:11,128
we, we kind of nailed it.
854
00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:14,064
By then there was a bunch of
really technical stuff
855
00:32:14,066 --> 00:32:18,335
that we did, that caused it to
be able to scale.
856
00:32:18,337 --> 00:32:20,971
And it was just a matter
of adding as many machines
857
00:32:20,973 --> 00:32:22,606
as we could at that point.
858
00:32:22,608 --> 00:32:24,942
Just in terms of
the amount of awareness
859
00:32:24,944 --> 00:32:27,311
and exposure that the work
860
00:32:27,313 --> 00:32:31,281

we were associated with um,

gained was meteoric.
861
00:32:31,283 --> 00:32:32,983
So in like a
four or five month span,
862
00:32:32,985 --> 00:32:35,319
it went from
30,000 registered users
863
00:32:35,321 --> 00:32:36,520
to over 20 million.
864
00:32:36,522 --> 00:32:38,055
Total users count now,
865
00:32:38,057 --> 00:32:39,957
I think we just recently
passed 20 million users.
866
00:32:40,658 --> 00:32:42,459
AOL has 23 million.
867
00:32:43,761 --> 00:32:46,263
Even as it really blew up,
I know on the,
868
00:32:46,265 --> 00:32:47,264
on the engineering side
869
00:32:47,266 --> 00:32:49,032
we're watching
these numbers go up,
870
00:32:49,034 --> 00:32:50,801
the simultaneous users
go up and up and up
871
00:32:50,803 --> 00:32:52,336
and then there's more and more
press coverage
872
00:32:52,338 --> 00:32:54,638
but it's still a small company
873
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,475

in a bank building and uh,

I think some people
874
00:32:58,477 --> 00:33:00,210
had a better
understanding of kind of,
875
00:33:00,212 --> 00:33:02,145
the significance of what
was going on than others,
876
00:33:02,147 --> 00:33:04,548
but day to day it was very hard
to comprehend.
877
00:33:06,084 --> 00:33:07,351
It was one of the first times
in history
878
00:33:07,353 --> 00:33:11,922
where you had this sort of
pure youth revolution.
879
00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:18,261
Young, inexperienced, relatively
unsophisticated, but smart kids
880
00:33:18,263 --> 00:33:21,365
could create something
entirely out of nowhere.
881
00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:25,068
And revolutionize
an industry that they frankly,
882
00:33:25,070 --> 00:33:26,203
knew nothing about.
883
00:33:26,704 --> 00:33:28,205
And had
no relationships in.
884
00:33:29,073 --> 00:33:30,173
And this all happened,
this you know,
885
00:33:30,175 --> 00:33:33,176
I, I think probably

six months passed,

886
00:33:33,178 --> 00:33:35,245
uh, before we ever
887
00:33:35,247 --> 00:33:37,180
had a conversation
888
00:33:37,182 --> 00:33:38,215
with anyone
889
00:33:38,217 --> 00:33:40,350
in the, from the music industry.
890
00:33:40,352 --> 00:33:42,052
And it wasn't, it wasn't
because we didn't want
891
00:33:42,054 --> 00:33:43,353
to have a conversation
with anyone
892
00:33:43,355 --> 00:33:45,522
in the music industry,
we just didn't know anyone
893
00:33:45,524 --> 00:33:46,289
in the music industry.
894
00:33:47,326 --> 00:33:50,160
that there are so many wins
with digital distribution
895
00:33:50,162 --> 00:33:51,828
that ultimately, you know,
once we have
896
00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:53,397
the opportunity
to work with artists
897
00:33:53,399 --> 00:33:54,664
and work with the labels
898
00:33:54,666 --> 00:33:56,400
to discuss, you know,
what models are viable

899
00:33:56,402 --> 00:33:57,734
and what are not,
we can come to a conclusion
900
00:33:57,736 --> 00:33:59,236
and find a good model
that works.
901
00:33:59,470 --> 00:34:01,638
There was this,
this moment in time
902
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,507
when you had someone
like Shawn Fanning
903
00:34:03,509 --> 00:34:07,878
who had the idea,
um, was smart enough
904
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,781
to build it, but didn't know
enough about the industry
905
00:34:10,783 --> 00:34:13,316
to know that it was
just an impossibility.
906
00:34:13,318 --> 00:34:15,485
Right, just not something
that was ever gonna fly.
907
00:34:15,753 --> 00:34:18,822
Um, but then at a time
when you could get
908
00:34:18,824 --> 00:34:21,525
tens of millions of dollars
in venture capital,
909
00:34:21,527 --> 00:34:23,693
to back something
which is clearly
910
00:34:23,695 --> 00:34:24,995
copyright infringement.

911
00:34:24,997 --> 00:34:27,030
Right? That was
the amazing thing
912
00:34:27,032 --> 00:34:29,066
You know, I remember
being in IRC with Shawn
913
00:34:29,068 --> 00:34:31,535
once upon a time and
him telling me, you know,
914
00:34:31,537 --> 00:34:33,370
we're raising
70 million dollars.
915
00:34:33,372 --> 00:34:34,571
And my response to him,
916
00:34:34,573 --> 00:34:35,605
I couldn't type it fast enough,
917
00:34:35,607 --> 00:34:37,741
was don't take the money.
918
00:34:38,109 --> 00:34:39,543
You don't have a business.
919
00:34:39,545 --> 00:34:41,878
You know, this is,
you cannot build a business
920
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,146
on copyright infringement.
921
00:34:43,381 --> 00:34:45,615
Napster was operating
in a legal gray area.
922
00:34:46,084 --> 00:34:49,519
And this very
important law, the DMCA,
923
00:34:49,521 --> 00:34:51,955
which was an amendment
to the copyright act,

924
00:34:51,957 --> 00:34:54,624
set up a series of safe harbors
925
00:34:54,626 --> 00:34:57,561
for uh, different technology
providers and
926
00:34:57,563 --> 00:34:58,595
telecommunication providers
927
00:34:58,597 --> 00:35:01,131
to immunize them
against lawsuits
928
00:35:01,133 --> 00:35:02,099
from the content industry.
929
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,067
I believed pretty firmly,
930
00:35:04,069 --> 00:35:05,969
and still believe to this day,
931
00:35:05,971 --> 00:35:09,840
had it, had, had Napster
been fully legislated
932
00:35:09,842 --> 00:35:13,810
at that moment,
that we would have qualified
933
00:35:13,812 --> 00:35:15,879
for I think it was Safe Harbor,
934
00:35:17,081 --> 00:35:18,748
I want to sway
it was Safe Harbor D,
935
00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:21,885
which provided protection
for indexes.
936
00:35:21,887 --> 00:35:23,120
Like Yahoo and Alta Vista.
937
00:35:23,287 --> 00:35:26,289

From the very beginning uh,

938
00:35:26,291 --> 00:35:28,325
like anyone who
looked at Napster,
939
00:35:28,327 --> 00:35:30,327
you were concerned
about the rights issues.
940
00:35:30,895 --> 00:35:33,430
And I knew Jeff Berg at ICM.
941
00:35:33,432 --> 00:35:37,000
Which at the time
was one of the biggest agencies
942
00:35:37,002 --> 00:35:38,135
in Hollywood.
943
00:35:38,536 --> 00:35:41,004
[music]
944
00:35:41,205 --> 00:35:43,140
And I called up and said,
hey Jeff,
945
00:35:43,142 --> 00:35:44,975
there's an awesome company
up here,
946
00:35:44,977 --> 00:35:46,610
it's quite disruptive.
947
00:35:46,612 --> 00:35:47,777
Can you go gather up
948
00:35:47,779 --> 00:35:49,179
some of the music lawyers?
949
00:35:51,048 --> 00:35:53,016
So we went down
and had this meeting.
950
00:35:53,251 --> 00:35:57,154
I remember Mo Ostin was there,
or Mo Ostin's lawyer.

951
00:35:57,688 --> 00:35:59,089
And a couple of other people.
952
00:35:59,390 --> 00:36:01,758
So we ran in there
and said, hey,
953
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,126
we need to come
to an agreement here.
954
00:36:03,128 --> 00:36:04,928
It should be easy because
955
00:36:04,930 --> 00:36:07,164
you're not going
to stop technology.
956
00:36:07,532 --> 00:36:10,700
Um, and tell us
what you want us to do.
957
00:36:10,702 --> 00:36:13,069
We want to cooperate.
958
00:36:13,071 --> 00:36:15,272
And um, and guess what?
959
00:36:15,706 --> 00:36:19,176
Nobody really cooperated.
And it never got resolved.
960
00:36:19,178 --> 00:36:22,345
It's still not resolved,
it's 12 years later.
961
00:36:22,347 --> 00:36:23,847
And that's pretty pathetic.
962
00:36:24,348 --> 00:36:25,916
Ultimately, we were gonna
have to figure out
963
00:36:25,918 --> 00:36:26,783
a revenue model.

964
00:36:26,785 --> 00:36:29,119
And when, by the time
we started talking
965
00:36:29,121 --> 00:36:30,987
to the labels,
we were more than happy
966
00:36:30,989 --> 00:36:32,789
to turn the whole thing over
to the labels.
967
00:36:33,124 --> 00:36:36,193
And basically,
become their digital music
968
00:36:36,195 --> 00:36:37,694
distribution service.
969
00:36:38,029 --> 00:36:39,196
We always wanted that.
970
00:36:39,530 --> 00:36:41,865
I recall we contacted them
971
00:36:41,867 --> 00:36:44,134
and started having conversations
972
00:36:44,136 --> 00:36:45,735
and we had serious conversations
973
00:36:45,737 --> 00:36:46,937
in about September.
974
00:36:47,305 --> 00:36:49,039
Of 1999.
975
00:36:49,041 --> 00:36:52,075
Explaining that there
was a problem here
976
00:36:52,077 --> 00:36:54,811
and they needed licenses,
but it would, it would be
977
00:36:54,813 --> 00:36:56,646

great for them to be talking

with the companies
978
00:36:56,648 --> 00:36:59,416
about licenses
and so on and so forth.
979
00:36:59,884 --> 00:37:02,619
And when it became clear
that they were just
980
00:37:02,621 --> 00:37:04,221
stringing us along
and they really had no
981
00:37:04,223 --> 00:37:06,990
intention of actually
negotiating licenses,
982
00:37:06,992 --> 00:37:08,592
we filed a lawsuit in December.
983
00:37:08,893 --> 00:37:10,227
We're being charged
with con-con...
984
00:37:10,229 --> 00:37:11,494
Contributory...
985
00:37:11,496 --> 00:37:13,129
Contributory and vicarious
infringement,
986
00:37:13,131 --> 00:37:14,164
or something to that effect.
987
00:37:14,799 --> 00:37:16,399
Basically saying that
since you know about it,
988
00:37:16,401 --> 00:37:17,901
you guys should be held liable.
989
00:37:17,903 --> 00:37:19,035
They're claiming that we did,
990
00:37:19,037 --> 00:37:20,870

but we can't really

discuss anything...
991
00:37:21,539 --> 00:37:24,174
And yeah, did we know?
Yeah, we knew.
992
00:37:24,609 --> 00:37:25,976
But...
993
00:37:26,410 --> 00:37:28,545
We also knew that...
994
00:37:29,213 --> 00:37:30,780
This thing called
the internet existed.
995
00:37:30,782 --> 00:37:32,449
and it was new.
996
00:37:32,451 --> 00:37:34,117
And as it evolved,
997
00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:36,152
these things were
going to start to happen
998
00:37:36,154 --> 00:37:37,520
and things were gonna
have to change.
999
00:37:37,522 --> 00:37:39,556
And the way in which
the world worked
1000
00:37:39,558 --> 00:37:41,324
was gonna have to change.
1001
00:37:41,326 --> 00:37:44,160
And we were just
the catalysts in that.
1002
00:37:51,836 --> 00:37:53,803
When Indiana University
banned Napster,
1003
00:37:53,805 --> 00:37:57,274

student Chad Paulsen

put up a website in protest.
1004
00:37:57,276 --> 00:37:59,376
Within weeks, over
13,000 students
1005
00:37:59,378 --> 00:38:02,279
had joined Paulsen
in his effort to free Napster.
1006
00:38:02,281 --> 00:38:04,347
It's not really necessarily
Napster itself,
1007
00:38:04,349 --> 00:38:07,917
it's the software and the
ideals behind the program.
1008
00:38:07,919 --> 00:38:09,953
It's like going to
a rock concert,
you know, just
1009
00:38:09,955 --> 00:38:11,021
listen to a new bands,
1010
00:38:11,023 --> 00:38:12,989
listen to up and coming music
1011
00:38:12,991 --> 00:38:15,292
and Indiana university
is just shutting it down.
1012
00:38:15,294 --> 00:38:17,494
I U and many universities
nation-wide,
1013
00:38:17,496 --> 00:38:19,095
maintain that they
banned Napster
1014
00:38:19,097 --> 00:38:20,497
because it put an
enormous strain
1015
00:38:20,499 --> 00:38:21,931
on their internet connection.

1016
00:38:21,933 --> 00:38:24,200
What's up man,
I'm with MTV News.
1017
00:38:24,202 --> 00:38:26,870
I was wondering
if you had any MP3s
on your computer?
1018
00:38:26,872 --> 00:38:29,572
So uh, how many MP3s
do you have on your computer?
1019
00:38:29,574 --> 00:38:30,907
About 600.
1020
00:38:30,909 --> 00:38:32,475
Maybe like a hundred
or something.
1021
00:38:32,477 --> 00:38:34,511
Uh, six or seven thousand.
1022
00:38:35,012 --> 00:38:35,779
Come again?
1023
00:38:35,781 --> 00:38:37,647
Six or seven thousand.
1024
00:38:37,649 --> 00:38:38,615
- For real?
- Yeah.
1025
00:38:39,217 --> 00:38:41,851
How many MP3s
you have on your computer?
1026
00:38:41,853 --> 00:38:43,186
Uh, probably like 300.
1027
00:38:43,188 --> 00:38:44,688
For real,
where'd you get them from?
1028
00:38:44,690 --> 00:38:47,223
Uh, truthfully, most of them

from Napster.
1029
00:38:47,225 --> 00:38:48,458
Are you a pirate?
1030
00:38:49,694 --> 00:38:52,028
Well, I don't know.
My roommate does the whole
1031
00:38:52,030 --> 00:38:55,065
computer thing.
Margaret are you a pirate?
1032
00:38:55,533 --> 00:38:57,967
What we had was basically
a nuts and bolts capacity issue.
1033
00:38:58,336 --> 00:39:00,503
Our internet connection
to the outside world
1034
00:39:00,505 --> 00:39:04,474
was being taken up nearly 61%
by users of Napsters
1035
00:39:04,476 --> 00:39:06,343
on, Napster on campus.
1036
00:39:06,345 --> 00:39:10,246
So, we had to
decrease that significantly,
1037
00:39:10,248 --> 00:39:11,448
or we had to ban it.
1038
00:39:13,250 --> 00:39:17,320
It very much felt like
now everyone was coming
1039
00:39:17,322 --> 00:39:19,556
to grips with the fact
that this is something that
1040
00:39:19,558 --> 00:39:21,057
they're going to
have to deal with.
1041

00:39:21,059 --> 00:39:23,793

I think at first,
they were trying to...
1042
00:39:24,161 --> 00:39:26,062
You know, they were really
trying to be like no.
1043
00:39:26,064 --> 00:39:27,797
This is just not
going to happen.
1044
00:39:27,965 --> 00:39:30,633
But now it's obviously so big,
it's out of their control.
1045
00:39:35,506 --> 00:39:39,075
For the first time,
the audience has gotten
1046
00:39:39,077 --> 00:39:41,244
to the technology
before the industry.
1047
00:39:41,412 --> 00:39:42,746
Before the music business.
1048
00:39:43,247 --> 00:39:44,748
Why are
the record companies afraid?
1049
00:39:45,216 --> 00:39:46,383
The record companies are afraid
1050
00:39:46,385 --> 00:39:47,784
because they'll be
forced to share.
1051
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,356
File sharing and this
whole new notion of people
1052
00:39:53,358 --> 00:39:55,592
getting music
through the internet,
the downloadable
1053
00:39:55,594 --> 00:39:58,795

distribution, to me,
I look at it as the new radio.
1054
00:40:00,664 --> 00:40:02,065
I mean we care very much
about artists
1055
00:40:02,067 --> 00:40:06,102
and so we think
that there is a solution to
there's,
1056
00:40:06,104 --> 00:40:08,004
you know, a way
that the technology
can be adapted
1057
00:40:08,006 --> 00:40:10,874
to-to-to benefit you know,
all of the, the parties
1058
00:40:10,876 --> 00:40:13,510
involved. The artists,
the industry and the users.
1059
00:40:13,711 --> 00:40:15,912
We think right now,
it's definitely a viable system
1060
00:40:15,914 --> 00:40:17,414
for all three and we think it,
you know, it can be
1061
00:40:17,416 --> 00:40:20,116
modified and can be improved
to be, you know,
1062
00:40:20,118 --> 00:40:21,317
even more valuable.
1063
00:40:21,552 --> 00:40:24,721
You know, there were these,
these iconic artists
1064
00:40:24,723 --> 00:40:27,257
who we'd grown up idolizing.
1065
00:40:27,259 --> 00:40:29,592

Some of whom wanted to kill us

1066
00:40:29,594 --> 00:40:31,795
and some of whom,
thought we were the, the answer.
1067
00:40:32,296 --> 00:40:33,630
I'm all for technology
1068
00:40:33,632 --> 00:40:35,899
and its interesting,
the exchange of music,
1069
00:40:35,901 --> 00:40:38,067
but the way that it's set up
1070
00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:39,569
right now,
it's theft,
1071
00:40:39,571 --> 00:40:40,904
basically. Pure and simple.
1072
00:40:40,906 --> 00:40:42,238
I'm bootleg proof, you dig.
1073
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:43,873
I, I got people that you know,
go around the world
1074
00:40:44,308 --> 00:40:46,042
you know,
smashing on stuff like that.
1075
00:40:46,044 --> 00:40:48,611
You heard about
the I Love You virus?
1076
00:40:48,613 --> 00:40:49,913
My peoples have something
to do with that.
1077
00:40:49,915 --> 00:40:52,849
I mean I can just do that to 'em
if I have to maybe.
1078
00:40:53,684 --> 00:40:55,718

I think this aspect

of technology
1079
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:59,355
is really gonna bring uh,
a lot of different angles of
1080
00:40:59,357 --> 00:41:02,725
life and commerciality
out of to the corporate world
1081
00:41:02,727 --> 00:41:04,060
and give it back
to the individual.
1082
00:41:04,595 --> 00:41:05,995
Just give the fans the music.
1083
00:41:05,997 --> 00:41:07,163
You know what I'm saying?
1084
00:41:07,298 --> 00:41:10,033
Uh, the internet is
just a way for you to just ...
1085
00:41:11,068 --> 00:41:13,169
Go right into it and
you give it to the fans.
1086
00:41:13,370 --> 00:41:14,437
It's great, isn't it?
1087
00:41:14,672 --> 00:41:16,005
Isn't that good? Isn't it?
1088
00:41:16,574 --> 00:41:18,608
Napster is, is bull[beep].
1089
00:41:18,776 --> 00:41:19,909
Is that that internet site?
1090
00:41:20,177 --> 00:41:23,012
That's where there's the, the...
1091
00:41:23,014 --> 00:41:25,148
trading of music.

1092
00:41:25,150 --> 00:41:29,085
We don't, we don't really know
enough about that,
1093
00:41:29,087 --> 00:41:32,455
so we can't really,
not really into computers.
1094
00:41:32,457 --> 00:41:33,456
It's bringing true democracy
1095
00:41:33,458 --> 00:41:35,024
back into the music business.
1096
00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:37,727
And it's changed,
it's forcing the artists
1097
00:41:37,729 --> 00:41:40,530
to change the way
that we relate to the consumer.
1098
00:41:40,532 --> 00:41:42,198
A musician goes out there
and works hard
1099
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:43,700
and pays their dues.
Why would you expect them
1100
00:41:43,702 --> 00:41:44,534
to work for free.
1101
00:41:44,869 --> 00:41:47,170
There's no doubt, uh, in my mind
1102
00:41:47,172 --> 00:41:49,205
that the, the future
of music is free.
1103
00:41:49,674 --> 00:41:52,709
to stop fans from
trading music on the internet.
1104
00:41:52,711 --> 00:41:54,511
Even if it's not through
a company or a website,

1105
00:41:54,513 --> 00:41:56,346
fans are gonna trade
music on their own.
1106
00:41:56,348 --> 00:41:57,547
There's no stopping it.
1107
00:41:57,781 --> 00:41:59,682
You know, that,
this revolution is,
1108
00:41:59,684 --> 00:42:00,950
is already taking place.
1109
00:42:01,218 --> 00:42:04,554
It's now, this is now
and we accept it and we get it.
1110
00:42:04,922 --> 00:42:07,190
And we're gonna grow with it.
1111
00:42:07,192 --> 00:42:10,326
And it's just another
addition to technology
1112
00:42:10,328 --> 00:42:12,095
and I'm a technology freak.
1113
00:42:12,429 --> 00:42:13,696
What do you say
to the artists that are so,
1114
00:42:13,698 --> 00:42:16,432
you know,
just so loving it the,
the new guy,
1115
00:42:16,434 --> 00:42:18,034
the, like
the Fred Dursts of the world,
1116
00:42:18,036 --> 00:42:21,137
who just they think
it's the greatest
thing for music?
1117

00:42:21,139 --> 00:42:22,605

Um, well
he's a moron to start with.
1118
00:42:22,607 --> 00:42:24,240
Okay, alright.
1119
00:42:24,242 --> 00:42:25,441
What more needs to be said
about that?
1120
00:42:25,576 --> 00:42:27,277
Nothing else, I guess.
1121
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,947
We get a lot of bands who,
who send us email
1122
00:42:30,949 --> 00:42:32,649
and say, you know,
we've been, we put our music
1123
00:42:32,651 --> 00:42:34,951
up on Napster, we,
we started sharing it and now
1124
00:42:34,953 --> 00:42:36,719
you know, we, we see a hundred
other people that
1125
00:42:36,721 --> 00:42:39,455
have it, they're listening to it
and eventually
1126
00:42:39,457 --> 00:42:41,357
that translates into more people
at their shows,
1127
00:42:41,359 --> 00:42:42,859
selling more CDs.
1128
00:42:43,027 --> 00:42:44,561
There were so many
success stories,
1129
00:42:44,563 --> 00:42:46,462
dispatch was a great one
because they were,

1130
00:42:46,464 --> 00:42:48,498
you know, a band and
they were touring
1131
00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:51,034
and their CDs weren't for sale.
1132
00:42:51,036 --> 00:42:52,769
And some of these places
they were playing
1133
00:42:52,771 --> 00:42:54,103
for the first time.
1134
00:42:54,105 --> 00:42:55,972
[music]
1135
00:43:04,615 --> 00:43:07,850
I think the first time
I ever yeah,
the name Napster
1136
00:43:07,852 --> 00:43:09,852
was backstage
after a college gig
1137
00:43:09,854 --> 00:43:12,155
where we'd played
Boston and New York
1138
00:43:12,157 --> 00:43:14,023
I bet for five or six years.
1139
00:43:14,025 --> 00:43:15,558
Just over and
over and over again.
1140
00:43:16,093 --> 00:43:18,428
Had finally built up
our fan base
1141
00:43:18,430 --> 00:43:20,096
to like 500 people a night
1142
00:43:20,098 --> 00:43:23,800
or 700 people a night

and then we flew a red eye

1143
00:43:23,802 --> 00:43:25,668
to play a college gig
in California.
1144
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:27,370
Halloween gig, or something
1145
00:43:27,372 --> 00:43:28,504
Had never been West, ever.
1146
00:43:28,706 --> 00:43:30,840
And then there were
more fans there
1147
00:43:30,842 --> 00:43:31,975
and they knew all the lyrics.
1148
00:43:31,977 --> 00:43:33,176
- It was...
- Yeah.
1149
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:36,713
And there was no, no radio.
1150
00:43:37,147 --> 00:43:41,551
And no press and no one knew
except everyone.
1151
00:43:42,586 --> 00:43:46,289
Yeah, it's kind of like uh,
instant distribution.
1152
00:43:46,291 --> 00:43:49,492
You know, without the,
without the big wigs on top
1153
00:43:49,494 --> 00:43:51,527
figuring out it's like this
1154
00:43:51,529 --> 00:43:53,229
But its not like
we don't like big wigs,
1155
00:43:53,231 --> 00:43:54,530
'cause I've seen

you wear big wigs.

1156
00:43:54,532 --> 00:43:55,798
I'm wearing
a big wig at the moment.
1157
00:43:55,966 --> 00:43:57,367
Its a huge wig.
1158
00:43:57,768 --> 00:43:58,735
So for an independent band,
1159
00:43:58,737 --> 00:44:01,471
with no uh, ties to any
label
1160
00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,507
to get to that scale just by
free sharing,
1161
00:44:04,509 --> 00:44:06,643
it was pretty clear
that it was um,
1162
00:44:06,645 --> 00:44:09,345
pretty powerful and they
were really open about
1163
00:44:09,347 --> 00:44:10,580
the gratitude for that.
1164
00:44:12,416 --> 00:44:16,919
Napster was absolutely the,
the most well known
1165
00:44:16,921 --> 00:44:19,756
and most chatted-about
company
1166
00:44:19,758 --> 00:44:22,125
in the tech world by far.
1167
00:44:22,926 --> 00:44:24,360
It was pretty cool
working at Napster
1168
00:44:24,362 --> 00:44:27,530

Like if you showed up,

you were kind of the star
of the party.
1169
00:44:27,532 --> 00:44:29,198
All you need was a Napster
you know, sticker
1170
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,100
and you were probably
gonna either get
1171
00:44:31,102 --> 00:44:33,136
a free drink or, or get laid.
1172
00:44:33,138 --> 00:44:35,405
Uh, one of the two,
so it was actually
1173
00:44:35,407 --> 00:44:36,973
a pretty awesome time
to be associated
1174
00:44:37,275 --> 00:44:40,510
Ron has a party
on a Friday night.
1175
00:44:41,011 --> 00:44:41,878
We learned that day
1176
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,746
that Hummer Winblad
had invested.
1177
00:44:44,515 --> 00:44:46,416
We had a large gathering
1178
00:44:46,418 --> 00:44:48,451
for our limited partners in
1179
00:44:48,453 --> 00:44:50,186
the Angel Investor LP funds.
1180
00:44:50,454 --> 00:44:53,222
You had Warren Buffett,
Dana Carvey,
1181

00:44:53,224 --> 00:44:54,891

Mark Andriessen,
1182
00:44:54,893 --> 00:44:56,726
Schwarzenneger's,
Schwarzenneger's Hummer.
1183
00:44:56,728 --> 00:44:57,927
Schwarzenneger's Hummer.
1184
00:44:58,228 --> 00:45:00,897
You had Shawn Fanning,
Sean Parker
1185
00:45:00,899 --> 00:45:04,067
Larry and Sergey of Google fame.
1186
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:05,668
Not then, but now, Google fame.
1187
00:45:06,236 --> 00:45:10,039
And uh, I can remember
you know, how, how taken
1188
00:45:10,041 --> 00:45:13,076
the Google guys were
by the Napster guys,
1189
00:45:13,078 --> 00:45:14,811
so to speak.
And I can remember thinking
1190
00:45:14,813 --> 00:45:17,547
you know, good luck
with that search engine thing.
1191
00:45:17,549 --> 00:45:18,614
I hope that works out for you.
1192
00:45:19,216 --> 00:45:20,950
They actually said
at one point like uh,
1193
00:45:20,952 --> 00:45:24,687
something to the effect of
how they were envious of
1194

00:45:24,689 --> 00:45:26,823

the Napster brand
and how it's so cool.
1195
00:45:26,825 --> 00:45:28,658
And I'm like,
but you guys are you know,
doing great
1196
00:45:28,660 --> 00:45:30,660
and they said, 'no,
but it's nothing like Napster.'
1197
00:45:30,662 --> 00:45:32,261
And I'm thinking,
in my head like uh,
1198
00:45:32,263 --> 00:45:33,529
you have no idea.
1199
00:45:34,064 --> 00:45:35,231
You have no idea.
1200
00:45:46,677 --> 00:45:49,479
We actually didn't imagine that,
that what they would
1201
00:45:49,481 --> 00:45:50,847
do was total shutdown.
1202
00:45:50,849 --> 00:45:53,516
We figured, like we as naive
technology guys
1203
00:45:53,518 --> 00:45:55,785
went this is really cool.
1204
00:45:55,787 --> 00:45:57,153
So the music business
1205
00:45:57,155 --> 00:45:59,188
is gonna try to find some sort
of business model
1206
00:45:59,190 --> 00:46:00,256
around this, right?
1207

00:46:00,258 --> 00:46:02,391

<i>Wow, downloading music</i>
<i>for free is awesome!</i>
1208
00:46:04,995 --> 00:46:05,828
What the hell is that?
1209
00:46:05,830 --> 00:46:06,863
I don't know, let me check
1210
00:46:06,865 --> 00:46:08,030
[crash]
1211
00:46:08,032 --> 00:46:09,432
Freeze, F-B-I!
1212
00:46:10,534 --> 00:46:12,168
Down on the ground!
Down on the ground!
1213
00:46:14,204 --> 00:46:16,272
Hands, let me see those hands!
1214
00:46:16,274 --> 00:46:18,875
My initial resistance
to the new services
1215
00:46:18,877 --> 00:46:21,010
created on line was based
on the debate
1216
00:46:21,012 --> 00:46:23,112
having been framed
in terms of piracy.
1217
00:46:24,281 --> 00:46:26,215
Being labeled as such
by the record companies,
1218
00:46:26,217 --> 00:46:28,885
it understandably sent
a ripple effect of panic
1219
00:46:28,887 --> 00:46:30,353
throughout the
artistic community.
1220

00:46:30,688 --> 00:46:33,356

they thought we just
had some big hard drive
1221
00:46:33,358 --> 00:46:34,557
full of music.
1222
00:46:34,559 --> 00:46:37,193
And we were just you know,
pirating everything.
1223
00:46:37,195 --> 00:46:38,594
Like as if we'd gone and
1224
00:46:38,596 --> 00:46:40,596
[stammers] as if we'd sat there
and put CDs and
1225
00:46:40,964 --> 00:46:44,333
ripped them for months
and months
and months and months and then
1226
00:46:44,335 --> 00:46:47,170
lo and behold,
we had the entire library of all
1227
00:46:47,172 --> 00:46:49,071
recorded music and
we were giving it away.
1228
00:46:49,073 --> 00:46:52,375
Our users are exchanging
content um, and we
1229
00:46:52,377 --> 00:46:54,577
we at Napster
never come in contact
1230
00:46:54,579 --> 00:46:56,579
with any of the music
that people are, are,
1231
00:46:56,581 --> 00:46:57,146
are distributing.
1232
00:46:57,148 --> 00:46:58,614
So...

1233
00:46:58,616 --> 00:47:00,416
And not only that,
but we're also fully compliant
1234
00:47:00,418 --> 00:47:02,652
the Digital Millennium
Copyright Act,
1235
00:47:02,654 --> 00:47:04,987
which requires us to
remove infringement links
1236
00:47:04,989 --> 00:47:05,822
when recording to us.
1237
00:47:06,123 --> 00:47:07,256
We were used to piracy,
1238
00:47:07,258 --> 00:47:08,491
but there was a quick remedy.
1239
00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:09,692
The R-I, double A
1240
00:47:09,694 --> 00:47:11,928
Recording Industry
Association of America
1241
00:47:11,930 --> 00:47:14,697
would get in touch with the FBI,
they'd do a raid,
1242
00:47:14,699 --> 00:47:16,432
they'd take it and then
four blocks later,
1243
00:47:16,434 --> 00:47:17,733
they'd go set up again.
1244
00:47:17,735 --> 00:47:20,036
So we dealt with, with piracy.
1245
00:47:20,038 --> 00:47:22,038
But it was piracy
in the hundreds

1246
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,439
or the thousands.
1247
00:47:23,441 --> 00:47:26,108
It wasn't piracy in the millions
1248
00:47:26,110 --> 00:47:29,712
and tens of millions
and ultimately, billions.
1249
00:47:32,015 --> 00:47:33,216
That's scary.
1250
00:47:33,218 --> 00:47:36,185
This is a company
that is building a business
1251
00:47:36,187 --> 00:47:38,221
You know, they've got
venture capital money.
1252
00:47:38,223 --> 00:47:42,558
They're out on Wall Street,
looking for financing.
1253
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,995
This isn't, you know,
just a, a sweet,
young guy,
1254
00:47:45,997 --> 00:47:49,031
who's looking for some fun
in his college dorm room.
1255
00:47:49,033 --> 00:47:50,566
They're building a business.
1256
00:47:50,568 --> 00:47:53,769
By facilitating the stealing
of artists' music.
1257
00:47:54,204 --> 00:47:58,307
A lot of the uncertainty,
I think uh, the, I'm sure,
1258
00:47:58,309 --> 00:48:01,544
plenty of lawyers and others,

all kind of put the,

1259
00:48:01,546 --> 00:48:04,313
the industry in a place
where it felt like
1260
00:48:04,315 --> 00:48:06,148
it needed some protection
or some control,
1261
00:48:06,150 --> 00:48:08,885
to at least exert control
long enough to figure out
1262
00:48:08,887 --> 00:48:11,387
what to make of this and
play it safe and I think
1263
00:48:11,389 --> 00:48:13,789
unfortunately,
that led to the missing
1264
00:48:13,791 --> 00:48:15,291
of really big opportunity.
1265
00:48:15,293 --> 00:48:17,860
I can get that the labels
were afraid,
1266
00:48:17,862 --> 00:48:19,495
it was so new, it was so fast,
1267
00:48:19,497 --> 00:48:21,797
that, and, and they
have control issues.
1268
00:48:22,166 --> 00:48:24,467
with legal agreements
and this thing
1269
00:48:24,469 --> 00:48:25,334
was like a hacker.
1270
00:48:25,336 --> 00:48:27,103
It was, you,
1271
00:48:27,105 --> 00:48:29,505

there are no nation

state boundaries
1272
00:48:29,507 --> 00:48:30,573
on the internet.
1273
00:48:30,575 --> 00:48:31,641
Right? You can't,
1274
00:48:31,643 --> 00:48:33,109
laws don't really apply to them
1275
00:48:33,111 --> 00:48:34,443
unless you can find them.
1276
00:48:34,811 --> 00:48:38,080
For me, it was not about
piracy and consumers
1277
00:48:38,082 --> 00:48:40,449
stealing
intellectual property right.
1278
00:48:40,451 --> 00:48:44,020
For me, it was like how great
must
music be
1279
00:48:44,022 --> 00:48:46,489
that these people
are coming together
1280
00:48:46,491 --> 00:48:49,225
and sharing
their taste of music.
1281
00:48:49,227 --> 00:48:52,128
And the press about
Napster was controversial
1282
00:48:52,130 --> 00:48:53,863
and misleading.
1283
00:48:53,865 --> 00:48:56,565
It was all about control, power
1284
00:48:56,567 --> 00:48:59,302

and how can we protect

our existing
1285
00:48:59,304 --> 00:49:00,369
business model.
1286
00:49:00,371 --> 00:49:02,571
I think Napster
had 60 million customers
1287
00:49:02,573 --> 00:49:05,708
Uh, or people you know,
which were...
1288
00:49:05,710 --> 00:49:08,210
getting their music
through Napster.
1289
00:49:08,645 --> 00:49:12,281
And uh, that seemed
like an incredible opportunity.
1290
00:49:12,749 --> 00:49:15,084
But because the major eight
record labels were
1291
00:49:15,086 --> 00:49:17,386
unable to come to any terms
with them,
1292
00:49:17,388 --> 00:49:19,488
they essentially burned it,
burned it down.
1293
00:49:19,490 --> 00:49:21,657
I think like any,
anything in the world,
1294
00:49:21,659 --> 00:49:24,260
those big innovations
rarely come from
1295
00:49:24,262 --> 00:49:26,228
the big companies that are
already dominating
1296
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:28,531
that game. Because it's not

in their interest
1297
00:49:28,533 --> 00:49:31,634
to completely reinvent
what they're doing there,
1298
00:49:31,636 --> 00:49:33,836
so they become actually,
very complacent.
1299
00:49:34,338 --> 00:49:36,872
The music business is a great,
great example
1300
00:49:36,874 --> 00:49:40,710
of, of that.
Of just complacency being
1301
00:49:40,712 --> 00:49:43,779
a total uh, death sentence.
1302
00:49:43,981 --> 00:49:48,017
The five global heads
of the companies at the time
1303
00:49:48,019 --> 00:49:49,552
most likely, couldn't agree
1304
00:49:49,554 --> 00:49:51,320
that today was Wednesday.
1305
00:49:51,322 --> 00:49:53,956
And for different reasons.
People had different ideas
1306
00:49:53,958 --> 00:49:55,424
people had different visions
1307
00:49:55,426 --> 00:49:58,761
and no one was used to this
1308
00:49:58,763 --> 00:50:02,965
and the word ambush
happened a lot of times
1309
00:50:02,967 --> 00:50:04,667
in the conversations that

we had with everybody.

1310
00:50:04,968 --> 00:50:07,136
The record business
was kind of ambushed.
1311
00:50:07,138 --> 00:50:08,371
However we want to look at it.
1312
00:50:08,373 --> 00:50:09,638
And you gotta deal
with an ambush.
1313
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:10,473
You dealt with Pearl Harbor,
1314
00:50:10,475 --> 00:50:11,774
you gotta deal with it, right?
1315
00:50:12,009 --> 00:50:14,076
There was no awareness
1316
00:50:14,078 --> 00:50:16,612
that something like
this was coming.
1317
00:50:17,014 --> 00:50:19,248
Uh, even though uh,
a lot of the technology
1318
00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:21,117
of the internet is
actually based on
1319
00:50:21,119 --> 00:50:23,686
peer to peer functionality.
1320
00:50:24,287 --> 00:50:26,489
It had never been
used in this way.
1321
00:50:26,491 --> 00:50:29,658
This was something
entirely different.
1322
00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:33,963
This was all the

content in one place.

1323
00:50:33,965 --> 00:50:37,733
It was an amazing experience
and everything was up there.
1324
00:50:38,135 --> 00:50:39,468
Everything.
1325
00:50:39,470 --> 00:50:40,636
But things change.
1326
00:50:40,638 --> 00:50:42,471
And you gotta change with it.
1327
00:50:42,773 --> 00:50:45,174
And to stick your feet
in the mud when the world
1328
00:50:45,176 --> 00:50:47,576
is tearing by you
like a bullet train,
1329
00:50:47,578 --> 00:50:49,211
is just laughable.
1330
00:50:49,479 --> 00:50:51,213
And you get real old, real fast.
1331
00:50:51,215 --> 00:50:53,849
And you got into the,
kind of the, the bin
1332
00:50:53,851 --> 00:50:55,918
in about one, one year,
1333
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,086
you're like yesterday's news
1334
00:50:57,088 --> 00:50:58,821
'cause you didn't keep up.
1335
00:50:58,823 --> 00:51:00,556
Some of those labels
got caught out there.
1336

00:51:00,558 --> 00:51:02,191

Some of the artists got
caught out there.
1337
00:51:02,592 --> 00:51:05,728
'Cause they have an
older school look
1338
00:51:05,730 --> 00:51:07,029
at the music industry.
1339
00:51:07,564 --> 00:51:11,333
From the moment that
Hank came in,
1340
00:51:11,335 --> 00:51:15,704
he was looking at making
deals and he did
1341
00:51:15,706 --> 00:51:17,807
everything but turn
cartwheels on
1342
00:51:17,809 --> 00:51:20,209
Hollywood Boulevard in
order to get them.
1343
00:51:20,211 --> 00:51:21,277
I think it was, you know,
1344
00:51:21,279 --> 00:51:23,813
we will not negotiate
with terrorists.
1345
00:51:23,815 --> 00:51:26,015
You know and I think, you know,
that's literally
1346
00:51:26,017 --> 00:51:27,683
how they perceived Napster
1347
00:51:27,685 --> 00:51:29,618
and I think you know,
in most things,
1348
00:51:29,620 --> 00:51:31,887
um, you know, you need a hero

1349
00:51:31,889 --> 00:51:35,491
And before you can find you
know, that hero,
1350
00:51:35,493 --> 00:51:37,159
you need to clearly
identify the villain.
1351
00:51:37,161 --> 00:51:38,094
And we were that.
1352
00:51:42,966 --> 00:51:43,999
All of a sudden, one day
1353
00:51:44,001 --> 00:51:45,634
I got a call from Cliff
Bernstein saying,
1354
00:51:45,636 --> 00:51:46,902
they're playing I Disappear
1355
00:51:46,904 --> 00:51:48,437
on 30 radio stations.
1356
00:51:48,439 --> 00:51:50,272
I go, how can that be possible?
1357
00:51:50,274 --> 00:51:51,607
We haven't even finished it yet?
1358
00:51:52,275 --> 00:51:55,010
And then we sort of, you know,
looked into it
1359
00:51:55,012 --> 00:51:58,080
and traced it back to some
company called Napster.
1360
00:51:58,082 --> 00:51:59,448
and we were like, huh?
1361
00:52:01,651 --> 00:52:03,719
It went straight downhill from
there, boys and girls.
1362
00:52:03,721 --> 00:52:04,820

[laughing]
1363
00:52:08,191 --> 00:52:10,259
The moment, the
quintessential moment
1364
00:52:10,261 --> 00:52:12,161
where I knew it was
out of control
1365
00:52:12,163 --> 00:52:16,799
was uh, when Metallica
delivered Napster
1366
00:52:16,801 --> 00:52:18,501
user names for us to block.
1367
00:52:18,503 --> 00:52:20,002
The heavy metal band, Metallica
1368
00:52:20,004 --> 00:52:22,271
has been most vocal in its
opposition to Napster.
1369
00:52:22,273 --> 00:52:23,439
and drummer, Lars Ulrich
1370
00:52:23,441 --> 00:52:25,541
even plans on delivering a
truckload of paper
1371
00:52:25,543 --> 00:52:27,076
to the company, listing people
1372
00:52:27,078 --> 00:52:30,412
who use its software to share
unauthorized MP3s.
1373
00:52:30,414 --> 00:52:32,581
Thus, kicking off
Metallica's much-hyped,
1374
00:52:32,583 --> 00:52:35,518
Monsters of Miniae filled
legal battles tour.
1375
00:52:35,952 --> 00:52:38,187

We could, we couldn't
believe how, you know,
1376
00:52:38,189 --> 00:52:40,189
what, what, how,
how crazy this was.
1377
00:52:40,590 --> 00:52:42,591
You know, Metallica was
coming to our office
1378
00:52:43,293 --> 00:52:45,261
to deliver boxes full of,
1379
00:52:45,263 --> 00:52:50,666
I think it was like 260,000
names of infringing users.
1380
00:52:50,934 --> 00:52:53,169
Who were violating
Metallica's copyright.
1381
00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:54,703
Uh, they could have put it,
1382
00:52:54,705 --> 00:52:58,274
on, on a old three and a half
inch floppy disc.
1383
00:52:58,508 --> 00:53:00,276
But no, nope.
1384
00:53:00,477 --> 00:53:02,578
They printed them all out
on paper and not,
1385
00:53:02,580 --> 00:53:06,849
<i>What Metallica has done is</i>
<i>harvest user names from</i>
<i>the internet.</i>
1386
00:53:06,983 --> 00:53:09,318
And from the Napster site. Now
anybody can get that
1387
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,987
it doesn't necessary uh,
correlate to uh,

1388
00:53:11,989 --> 00:53:15,090
to actual legal names of
Napster users.
1389
00:53:15,092 --> 00:53:16,659
They simply downloaded anyone
1390
00:53:16,661 --> 00:53:18,661
who has a Metallica
song available
1391
00:53:18,663 --> 00:53:20,029
on the Napster site.
1392
00:53:20,031 --> 00:53:20,829
There you go.
1393
00:53:21,431 --> 00:53:23,065
Now, once again,
1394
00:53:23,067 --> 00:53:24,600
we're not going after these
people specifically.
1395
00:53:24,602 --> 00:53:26,468
What we're merely doing,
is giving Napster
1396
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:28,237
the information that
they thought
1397
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:29,405
that we couldn't gather.
1398
00:53:29,573 --> 00:53:31,473
Which is basically, real people
1399
00:53:31,475 --> 00:53:33,876
downloading Metallica
master songs.
1400
00:53:33,878 --> 00:53:35,444
Not bootleg live recordings.
1401

00:53:35,446 --> 00:53:37,112

What will they do?
1402
00:53:37,114 --> 00:53:39,148
I think maybe if we could get
the Napster people out there,
1403
00:53:39,150 --> 00:53:40,583
they could take that question.
1404
00:53:41,419 --> 00:53:43,919
do not go anywhere near the
front of the office.
1405
00:53:43,921 --> 00:53:45,688
Because it's gonna be, you know,
1406
00:53:45,690 --> 00:53:49,024
And uh, we were like
opening the windows,
1407
00:53:49,026 --> 00:53:51,360
trying to look out to see
what was going on.
1408
00:53:51,362 --> 00:53:54,063
Finally, Shawn and Sean are
like, this is done.
1409
00:53:54,065 --> 00:53:55,731
And Fanning and I
decided at one point,
1410
00:53:55,733 --> 00:53:57,466
just prior to Lars arriving,
1411
00:53:57,468 --> 00:53:59,602
that we would sneak out the back
door of the office
1412
00:53:59,604 --> 00:54:01,570
and run across the
street and watch.
1413
00:54:02,472 --> 00:54:04,440
Just watch this whole spectacle.
1414

00:54:04,608 --> 00:54:06,642

And we were like just laughing,
hysterically.
1415
00:54:07,344 --> 00:54:09,578
There's a podium set up
on the sidewalk.
1416
00:54:09,580 --> 00:54:12,982
I mean 25 mikes from
news organizations
1417
00:54:12,984 --> 00:54:14,216
to get the pearls of wisdom
1418
00:54:14,218 --> 00:54:15,718
and views of Lars Ulrich,
1419
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:17,820
who then takes a few questions,
but you know,
1420
00:54:17,822 --> 00:54:19,755
he's got to actually deliver
the names and so,
1421
00:54:19,757 --> 00:54:23,025
there we are, uh, Bonnie and
Clyde, in the elevator,
1422
00:54:23,027 --> 00:54:27,196
uh, where if you had a shot of
it, the doors closed
1423
00:54:27,198 --> 00:54:28,897
and it's Howard King
and Lars Ulrich
1424
00:54:28,899 --> 00:54:30,432
and a couple other thugs.
1425
00:54:30,767 --> 00:54:33,502
And the doors closed and Lars
turns to us and says,
1426
00:54:33,504 --> 00:54:35,404
'hey guys, nothing personal'.

1427
00:54:35,406 --> 00:54:37,473
At which point, the door was
open to be like,
1428
00:54:37,607 --> 00:54:40,175
well why didn't we talk to
each other about this?
1429
00:54:40,177 --> 00:54:42,745
I'm sure it's not the
end of the story,
1430
00:54:42,747 --> 00:54:44,113
Well I think he probably assumed
1431
00:54:44,115 --> 00:54:46,849
that he'd walk into a dark,
expansive room
1432
00:54:46,851 --> 00:54:49,351
and you'd be, you know, sitting
in a chair with like
1433
00:54:49,353 --> 00:54:51,053
a, a cat. Do you know
what I mean?
1434
00:54:51,055 --> 00:54:53,355
With like TV
monitors in the back
1435
00:54:53,357 --> 00:54:55,724
and I mean the reality
was you know,
1436
00:54:55,726 --> 00:55:00,195
that this was a really low rent,
shitty office building
1437
00:55:00,197 --> 00:55:02,564
with a bunch of kids
running around in it.
1438
00:55:02,566 --> 00:55:04,433
And I'm sure he was blown away.
1439
00:55:04,435 --> 00:55:06,035

But I will tell you that a

few minutes ago,
1440
00:55:06,037 --> 00:55:09,805
when I dropped off all the names
that they asked for
1441
00:55:09,807 --> 00:55:13,909
uh, I met two really nice
guys up there uh,
1442
00:55:13,911 --> 00:55:16,645
I put a human face to this
whole thing Napster
1443
00:55:16,647 --> 00:55:20,316
and we had a very civil, very
cordial conversation
1444
00:55:20,318 --> 00:55:22,518
for ten, 15 minutes.They
said their side,
1445
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:23,485
I said my side.
1446
00:55:23,487 --> 00:55:26,155
And its sort of like the
ultimate thing
1447
00:55:26,157 --> 00:55:28,924
in just American society, agree,
disagree.
1448
00:55:28,926 --> 00:55:30,793
Coming from two different
points of view.
1449
00:55:30,795 --> 00:55:33,929
But you know, what, to me,
Napster keep trying to do,
1450
00:55:33,931 --> 00:55:36,765
is try to sort of you know,
drag it out
1451
00:55:36,767 --> 00:55:38,834
and make it about

Metallica and their fans

1452
00:55:38,836 --> 00:55:41,403
or make it you know, why didn't
Lars call us personally?
1453
00:55:41,405 --> 00:55:43,105
Come on, you know, like let's
stop bullshitting
1454
00:55:43,107 --> 00:55:44,206
each other here.
1455
00:55:44,208 --> 00:55:45,641
I think it's about the
most unhip thing
1456
00:55:45,643 --> 00:55:48,010
that I've seen a big
rock star do.
1457
00:55:48,245 --> 00:55:50,746
I would imagine a Celine
Dion or something
1458
00:55:50,748 --> 00:55:53,082
might be the first one out
there, but uh, but nobody,
1459
00:55:53,084 --> 00:55:54,416
uh, nobody that uses Napster,
1460
00:55:54,418 --> 00:55:55,351
I don't think there's
probably any
1461
00:55:55,552 --> 00:55:57,252
Celine Dion songs being shared.
1462
00:55:57,254 --> 00:55:58,921
So that's probably uh,
1463
00:55:59,189 --> 00:56:00,222
that's probably where it's at.
1464
00:56:00,224 --> 00:56:02,157
There's one picture of this guy,

uh,
1465
00:56:02,159 --> 00:56:03,425
with a Metallica t-shirt and,
1466
00:56:03,427 --> 00:56:05,260
and standing right next to a guy
1467
00:56:05,262 --> 00:56:06,595
with an AFTRA t-shirt.
1468
00:56:06,597 --> 00:56:07,629
It's like this is,
1469
00:56:07,631 --> 00:56:09,598
this is oh my god, this is
out of control.
1470
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,134
This is the vortex of this
1471
00:56:12,136 --> 00:56:15,471
crazy tornado
hurricane that we're,
1472
00:56:15,473 --> 00:56:16,672
we're in the center of.
1473
00:56:16,940 --> 00:56:18,107
The center of the debate.
1474
00:56:18,541 --> 00:56:19,842
Do you agree with these guys?
1475
00:56:20,343 --> 00:56:21,944
Uh, depends on which guys
you're talking about,
1476
00:56:21,946 --> 00:56:23,178
I agree with Metallica.
1477
00:56:24,948 --> 00:56:26,348
That's cool.
1478
00:56:26,350 --> 00:56:28,817
And you know, it's true, for

some reason Metallica

1479
00:56:28,819 --> 00:56:30,052
had decided that they
were going to be
1480
00:56:30,054 --> 00:56:32,121
the lightening rod for all
these other artists,
1481
00:56:32,123 --> 00:56:34,056
who were like, you know,
not quite sure
1482
00:56:34,058 --> 00:56:35,224
what they thought of the thing.
1483
00:56:35,859 --> 00:56:37,226
Um, and, but they were
1484
00:56:37,228 --> 00:56:38,961
you know, they were angry.
1485
00:56:39,362 --> 00:56:41,497
Like Metal was supposed to
be about like being
1486
00:56:41,499 --> 00:56:43,932
renegade and being like,
anti-establishment
1487
00:56:43,934 --> 00:56:46,402
and-and-and, you know,
sticking it to the man.
1488
00:56:46,404 --> 00:56:48,270
So it was kind of ironic
that this metal band
1489
00:56:48,272 --> 00:56:49,538
was suing us.
1490
00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:52,608
It was like Metal and
like Gangsta Rap.
1491
00:56:53,076 --> 00:56:56,512

Like the two least likely

people to go after us
1492
00:56:56,514 --> 00:56:57,913
were the ones who were suing us.
1493
00:56:57,915 --> 00:56:59,948
Napster is stealing from us.
Straight up.
1494
00:56:59,950 --> 00:57:01,350
And I'm gonna fight 'em
to the death.
1495
00:57:01,352 --> 00:57:02,751
[loud boom]
1496
00:57:12,295 --> 00:57:14,296
Any time things go to
Capital Hill,
1497
00:57:14,298 --> 00:57:16,365
you know that the, the shit's
really hit the fan.
1498
00:57:16,367 --> 00:57:20,502
Like that's, you know, then,
then it actually means
something.
1499
00:57:20,504 --> 00:57:21,837
It started to be talked about
1500
00:57:21,839 --> 00:57:23,405
in all those broader terms.
1501
00:57:23,407 --> 00:57:25,707
So it went beyond just
rights and that issue.
1502
00:57:25,709 --> 00:57:27,209
It became the, the way that we
1503
00:57:27,211 --> 00:57:28,977
exchange information period.
1504
00:57:29,245 --> 00:57:31,246

When those concepts started

to be introduced,
1505
00:57:31,248 --> 00:57:33,615
I kind of realized that, there
was no going back
1506
00:57:33,617 --> 00:57:34,750
at that point. That was,
1507
00:57:34,752 --> 00:57:36,385
This was the future.
1508
00:57:36,387 --> 00:57:38,487
there has been an
upheaval of sorts
1509
00:57:38,489 --> 00:57:40,856
concerning how music is copied
over the internet.
1510
00:57:41,357 --> 00:57:43,325
What Newsweek Magazine dubbed,
1511
00:57:43,327 --> 00:57:45,494
<i>The Noisy War Over Napster,</i>
1512
00:57:46,062 --> 00:57:48,263
involves more parties and
has much broader
1513
00:57:48,265 --> 00:57:50,699
implications than that
moniker implies.
1514
00:57:50,867 --> 00:57:52,734
Just like a carpenter who
crafts a table
1515
00:57:52,736 --> 00:57:56,138
gets to decide whether he wants
to keep it, sell it,
1516
00:57:56,140 --> 00:57:57,372
or give it away,
1517
00:57:57,374 --> 00:57:59,208

shouldn't we have the

same options?
1518
00:57:59,509 --> 00:58:01,777
We should decide what
happens to our music
1519
00:58:01,779 --> 00:58:04,947
not a company with no rights
in our recordings,
1520
00:58:04,949 --> 00:58:07,282
Which has never invested a
penny in our music
1521
00:58:07,284 --> 00:58:09,485
or anything to do with
its creation.
1522
00:58:09,487 --> 00:58:11,787
The choice has been
taken away from us.
1523
00:58:11,789 --> 00:58:14,423
I became a royalty artist when
I signed a contract
1524
00:58:14,425 --> 00:58:15,891
with Columbia Records,
1525
00:58:15,893 --> 00:58:17,526
with a group called The Byrds.
1526
00:58:17,694 --> 00:58:19,294
And we recorded um,
1527
00:58:19,896 --> 00:58:22,898
15 albums or so,
during that period.
1528
00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:24,933
And aside from modest advances
1529
00:58:24,935 --> 00:58:27,703
for each of these albums, I
never saw any royalties.
1530

00:58:28,271 --> 00:58:30,005

Even though we've had
number one hits
1531
00:58:30,007 --> 00:58:32,307
with Mr. Tambourine Man, and
Turn, Turn, Turn.
1532
00:58:32,309 --> 00:58:35,744
I saw nothing but the advance,
which is uh,
1533
00:58:35,746 --> 00:58:37,513
divided five ways. It was only
1534
00:58:37,515 --> 00:58:39,147
a few thousand dollars a piece.
1535
00:58:39,682 --> 00:58:41,083
And uh, [clears throat]
1536
00:58:41,085 --> 00:58:43,852
with the advent of MP3 dot com,
1537
00:58:43,854 --> 00:58:47,256
I'm getting 50% of the, the CDs
that come out now.
1538
00:58:47,258 --> 00:58:48,724
I think it's a wonderful thing.
1539
00:58:48,992 --> 00:58:51,927
Thank you, Mr. McGuinn,
that's uh, that's uh,
1540
00:58:51,929 --> 00:58:52,961
that's a complaint I've heard
1541
00:58:52,963 --> 00:58:54,429
from a number of people.
1542
00:58:55,064 --> 00:58:56,265
Uh, Mr. Berry...
1543
00:58:56,267 --> 00:58:58,133
Napster simply
facilitates communication

1544
00:58:58,135 --> 00:59:00,269
among people
interested in music.
1545
00:59:00,271 --> 00:59:02,437
It's a return to the original
information sharing
1546
00:59:02,439 --> 00:59:03,639
approach of the internet
1547
00:59:03,641 --> 00:59:06,542
and it allows for a depth and a
scale of information.
1548
00:59:06,544 --> 00:59:08,110
that is truly revolutionary.
1549
00:59:08,645 --> 00:59:10,579
Napster's helping
and not hurting
1550
00:59:10,581 --> 00:59:12,014
the recording
industry and artists.
1551
00:59:12,248 --> 00:59:14,316
A chorus of studies show
that Napster users
1552
00:59:14,318 --> 00:59:16,919
buy more records as a result
of using Napster
1553
00:59:16,921 --> 00:59:18,687
and that sampling music
before buying,
1554
00:59:18,988 --> 00:59:20,322
is the most important reason
1555
00:59:20,324 --> 00:59:21,790
that people use Napster.
1556
00:59:21,792 --> 00:59:22,891
One of the Senate Hearings

1557
00:59:22,893 --> 00:59:24,593
had a bunch of key personalities
1558
00:59:24,595 --> 00:59:25,561
that were invited.
1559
00:59:25,563 --> 00:59:28,263
And Hank Berry was
there on our side.
1560
00:59:28,665 --> 00:59:30,599
And Hank's a lawyer,
he's our CEO.
1561
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,802
So very thoughtful, you know,
well prepared,
1562
00:59:33,804 --> 00:59:36,538
articulate argument, you know,
1563
00:59:36,540 --> 00:59:37,940
having to be defensive at times,
1564
00:59:37,942 --> 00:59:39,508
but at the end of the day,
he's playing fairly.
1565
00:59:39,510 --> 00:59:41,443
And then there was, Gene
Kan from Gnutela.
1566
00:59:41,445 --> 00:59:42,611
My name is Gene Kan,
1567
00:59:42,613 --> 00:59:45,480
I'm a Gnutella developer,
one of many.
1568
00:59:45,482 --> 00:59:47,049
I'm not the inventor
of Gnutella,
1569
00:59:47,051 --> 00:59:49,818
one of the people who
happily talks about it.

1570
00:59:50,153 --> 00:59:52,854
And Gene's a pretty mild guy
and he's a nice guy.
1571
00:59:52,856 --> 00:59:55,223
He's kind of thoughtful, a
little bit introverted
1572
00:59:55,225 --> 00:59:56,358
but in this role,
1573
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,594
he decided to just
absolutely run with it.
1574
00:59:58,596 --> 01:00:00,128
and so he just played the
1575
01:00:00,130 --> 01:00:03,765
crazy anarchist destroy
the system role
1576
01:00:03,767 --> 01:00:06,001
I remember being so
entertained by
1577
01:00:06,003 --> 01:00:07,369
by all the fallout from that.
1578
01:00:07,771 --> 01:00:10,372
is the holy grail of
distribution channels.
1579
01:00:10,374 --> 01:00:12,441
It is the zero marginal cost
distribution channel
1580
01:00:12,976 --> 01:00:14,409
Uh, that means that it
cost the same
1581
01:00:14,411 --> 01:00:16,445
to transfer one copy of
intellectual property
1582
01:00:16,447 --> 01:00:18,780

as it cost to transmit
10,000 copies,
1583
01:00:18,782 --> 01:00:20,549
or one million copies, or
ten million copies.
1584
01:00:20,818 --> 01:00:23,185
old world tactics may
no longer work
1585
01:00:23,187 --> 01:00:23,919
on the internet.
1586
01:00:23,921 --> 01:00:25,354
This is the new economy.
1587
01:00:25,356 --> 01:00:27,255
Can we stem the tide of
new technologies?
1588
01:00:27,257 --> 01:00:28,457
Highly unlikely.
1589
01:00:28,459 --> 01:00:29,625
So what does the future hold?
1590
01:00:29,627 --> 01:00:32,027
Great things if
profiteers adapt.
1591
01:00:32,029 --> 01:00:34,162
If intellectual property
profiteers adapt.
1592
01:00:34,164 --> 01:00:35,497
There's room only for
the leaders.
1593
01:00:35,499 --> 01:00:37,733
The internet is, is
ignanomously
1594
01:00:37,735 --> 01:00:40,969
inhospitable to middlemen
and followers.
1595

01:00:40,971 --> 01:00:42,037

Technology moves forward
1596
01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:43,405
and leaves the
stragglers behind.
1597
01:00:43,606 --> 01:00:44,740
The adopters always win
1598
01:00:44,742 --> 01:00:45,641
and the stalwarts
1599
01:00:45,643 --> 01:00:47,876
Mechanized farming is a
good example.
1600
01:00:47,878 --> 01:00:48,844
You don't see anyone out there
1601
01:00:48,846 --> 01:00:50,479
with a horse and
plow these days.
1602
01:00:50,481 --> 01:00:51,413
Very intelligent statement,
1603
01:00:51,415 --> 01:00:53,148
except that I don't
think we infringe
1604
01:00:53,150 --> 01:00:54,483
when we download
because it's for
1605
01:00:54,485 --> 01:00:56,218
educational and
governmental purposes.
1606
01:00:56,719 --> 01:00:58,086
So it's very used.
1607
01:00:59,689 --> 01:01:02,658
And since we, since we
define what that is...
1608
01:01:02,660 --> 01:01:03,759

[laughter]
1609
01:01:05,628 --> 01:01:06,928
You know, we went to the
senate hearings,
1610
01:01:06,930 --> 01:01:09,831
expecting you know, to be sort,
I mean it was sort of
1611
01:01:09,833 --> 01:01:11,099
established as an information
1612
01:01:11,101 --> 01:01:13,168
gathering session, so we
expected it to be us giving
1613
01:01:13,170 --> 01:01:14,469
them lots of information.
1614
01:01:14,471 --> 01:01:16,071
And, and trying to explain to
them, how things work.
1615
01:01:16,073 --> 01:01:19,641
But surprisingly, they
really understood
1616
01:01:19,643 --> 01:01:20,575
and they were very supportive.
1617
01:01:20,577 --> 01:01:21,209
You know, they did not want
1618
01:01:21,211 --> 01:01:23,779
They understood it was adopted
1619
01:01:23,781 --> 01:01:26,615
by you know, 20 million people
and that was really
1620
01:01:26,617 --> 01:01:28,984
powerful to them and so they
were all about trying
1621
01:01:28,986 --> 01:01:31,053
to structure things so that it

would be worked out

1622
01:01:31,055 --> 01:01:33,088
between all the people
who had issues.
1623
01:01:33,389 --> 01:01:37,859
And um, you know, I, I
suppose that, that maybe
1624
01:01:37,861 --> 01:01:39,728
you know, I got my hopes up.
That you know,
1625
01:01:39,730 --> 01:01:41,096
everyone would sort of
understand things
1626
01:01:41,098 --> 01:01:42,464
as well as they did.
1627
01:01:42,899 --> 01:01:46,601
Prize one, and the Webby award
for music goes to...
1628
01:01:48,171 --> 01:01:49,471
Napster.
[applause]
1629
01:01:49,639 --> 01:01:52,174
The first version of the
product, was pretty much
1630
01:01:52,176 --> 01:01:53,408
the same set of features
1631
01:01:53,410 --> 01:01:56,311
and it was sort of a very
simple application.
1632
01:01:56,313 --> 01:01:58,947
But once we were sued, we
couldn't really do much
1633
01:01:58,949 --> 01:02:00,415
with it. So to have
something growing

1634
01:02:00,417 --> 01:02:02,284
that quickly, to have so
much attention
1635
01:02:02,286 --> 01:02:04,019
and have so many great ideas
1636
01:02:04,021 --> 01:02:05,387
and so much passion
1637
01:02:05,389 --> 01:02:07,422
among the team members and
desire to make it.
1638
01:02:07,424 --> 01:02:08,757
Make it work, make it last.
1639
01:02:08,759 --> 01:02:10,892
To uh, not be able to actually
1640
01:02:10,894 --> 01:02:12,561
change the product and
make it better,
1641
01:02:12,563 --> 01:02:15,163
to not be able to really
pursue a lot of the great
1642
01:02:15,165 --> 01:02:17,733
ideas for how to make uh, it
a viable business.
1643
01:02:17,735 --> 01:02:20,702
I think it was actually
incredibly frustrating.
1644
01:02:20,704 --> 01:02:21,870
You know, there was
all this focus
1645
01:02:21,872 --> 01:02:26,241
on the recording industry uh,
and the legal battle
1646
01:02:26,243 --> 01:02:29,177
from a business perspective, uh,
but

1647
01:02:29,179 --> 01:02:31,213
almost no focus whatsoever
1648
01:02:31,215 --> 01:02:33,014
on the value of the business.
1649
01:02:33,016 --> 01:02:34,616
which was this platform
1650
01:02:34,618 --> 01:02:36,318
and its capabilities and
what it could do.
1651
01:02:37,220 --> 01:02:39,554
The legal issues
around the product,
1652
01:02:39,556 --> 01:02:41,890
and the interface between
the legal team,
1653
01:02:41,892 --> 01:02:44,025
which was becoming an
increasingly large
1654
01:02:44,027 --> 01:02:45,360
and influential part
of the company,
1655
01:02:45,362 --> 01:02:46,995
and the product and
engineering team,
1656
01:02:46,997 --> 01:02:48,597
which was becoming
increasingly small
1657
01:02:48,599 --> 01:02:49,998
and marginalized part
of the company.
1658
01:02:50,399 --> 01:02:51,767
Eventually the
lawyers took over.
1659
01:02:52,135 --> 01:02:54,369

The first mutiny was when we

moved into that office.
1660
01:02:54,371 --> 01:02:56,772
in Redwood City.
1661
01:02:56,939 --> 01:02:59,274
And it was a giant cubicle farm.
1662
01:02:59,609 --> 01:03:01,543
And as soon as Jordan
and I saw it,
1663
01:03:01,545 --> 01:03:02,878
we looked at each other
1664
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,380
and we didn't have to say
anything to each other.
1665
01:03:05,681 --> 01:03:09,251
We were like, this is, we,
we knew it was bad.
1666
01:03:09,253 --> 01:03:10,652
The layout of the office.
1667
01:03:10,654 --> 01:03:12,754
So we'd gone from
having funky desks,
1668
01:03:12,756 --> 01:03:14,156
I, I would call door desks,
1669
01:03:14,158 --> 01:03:15,557
like we would
literally buy doors
1670
01:03:15,559 --> 01:03:17,425
that have the knob hole there.
1671
01:03:17,427 --> 01:03:19,261
That would be where all
your wires went,
1672
01:03:19,263 --> 01:03:22,330
to cubicles with walls.

1673
01:03:22,765 --> 01:03:25,600
We wanted to all sit
together and, you know
1674
01:03:25,602 --> 01:03:26,735
we'd gotten used to that.
1675
01:03:27,470 --> 01:03:29,004
And that's how we work.
1676
01:03:29,006 --> 01:03:32,274
Management offices were
literally up a floor
1677
01:03:32,276 --> 01:03:33,708
looking down on the floor,
1678
01:03:33,710 --> 01:03:35,744
if you can imagine, it used to
be a factory work floor.
1679
01:03:36,846 --> 01:03:40,048
Horrible metaphor, you know,
sit in your cubicle
1680
01:03:40,050 --> 01:03:42,017
and shut up, right.
1681
01:03:42,652 --> 01:03:45,887
And you know, you're expendable.
1682
01:03:46,055 --> 01:03:47,422
Oh, these people
need to be is...
1683
01:03:47,623 --> 01:03:49,891
Isolated and that noise
1684
01:03:49,893 --> 01:03:51,193
is gonna bother these
other noise.
1685
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:52,994
Who the fuck are you assholes?
1686

01:03:53,430 --> 01:03:56,398

Do you have any idea what
creativity is about?
1687
01:03:57,033 --> 01:03:59,401
That was a fucking
super buzzkill.
1688
01:03:59,403 --> 01:04:02,504
Uh, and, and you know, we,
we won a few like
1689
01:04:02,506 --> 01:04:05,340
minor battles, but the war
was completely lost.
1690
01:04:05,875 --> 01:04:06,908
I had the advantage
1691
01:04:06,910 --> 01:04:09,511
and uh, Sean Parker didn't
enjoy this luxury.
1692
01:04:09,645 --> 01:04:10,779
But I had the advantage of
kind of being able to
1693
01:04:10,781 --> 01:04:11,947
kind of stick my head
in the sand,
1694
01:04:11,949 --> 01:04:13,815
in terms of being able to just
work on the product.
1695
01:04:13,817 --> 01:04:18,320
So, I had this attitude of if
things got crazy,
1696
01:04:18,322 --> 01:04:21,089
or people seem to be
acting irrationally,
1697
01:04:21,091 --> 01:04:24,526
or uh, if we were nervous, I
could just work harder
1698
01:04:24,528 --> 01:04:25,961

on the product. Write more code,

1699
01:04:25,963 --> 01:04:26,862
put my head down.
1700
01:04:26,864 --> 01:04:28,597
So that got me through a
lot of the time.
1701
01:04:28,599 --> 01:04:30,498
First of all, what is your,
what is your name
1702
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:31,633
and what do you do here?
1703
01:04:32,501 --> 01:04:35,804
I'm Shawn Fanning. I uh,
started the, the company
1704
01:04:35,806 --> 01:04:37,572
and I'm currently an
engineer at Napster.
1705
01:04:38,407 --> 01:04:39,441
How 'bout you?
1706
01:04:39,443 --> 01:04:42,677
I'm Sean Parker, I am also
a founder and um,
1707
01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:44,212
I do a variety of things.
1708
01:04:44,580 --> 01:04:46,581
Working with the
legal team to uh,
1709
01:04:46,583 --> 01:04:48,183
business related strategy.
1710
01:04:48,185 --> 01:04:49,784
Do you have a nickname,
like Napster?
1711
01:04:49,786 --> 01:04:50,886
Um, no.

1712
01:04:51,654 --> 01:04:54,689
Shawn Fanning and I, we
literally went from being
1713
01:04:54,691 --> 01:05:00,528
high school kids leading
relatively normal
1714
01:05:00,530 --> 01:05:02,030
mundane lives.
1715
01:05:02,198 --> 01:05:04,866
To...
1716
01:05:04,868 --> 01:05:09,671
...12 months later, nearly
bringing one of the largest
1717
01:05:09,673 --> 01:05:11,373
US industries to its knees
1718
01:05:11,375 --> 01:05:15,443
and basically fighting what is
uh, in terms of potential
1719
01:05:15,445 --> 01:05:18,179
assessed damages, the largest
corporate lawsuit
1720
01:05:18,181 --> 01:05:19,447
in the history of the world.
1721
01:05:22,551 --> 01:05:24,619
The music swapping website,
Napster,
1722
01:05:24,621 --> 01:05:26,488
which for almost a year now,
has provided
1723
01:05:26,490 --> 01:05:28,423
millions of music
fans world-wide
1724
01:05:28,425 --> 01:05:30,125
with an

unprecedented opportunity
1725
01:05:30,127 --> 01:05:32,560
to copy and trade music
on the internet,
1726
01:05:32,562 --> 01:05:35,230
was dealt a serious
blow on Wednesday,
1727
01:05:35,232 --> 01:05:37,666
when Federal Court Judge
Marilyn Patel issued
1728
01:05:37,668 --> 01:05:40,435
a temporary injunction
against Napster, pending
1729
01:05:40,437 --> 01:05:42,837
the outcome of a trial,
which will ultimately
1730
01:05:42,839 --> 01:05:45,140
determine the future of
the software.
1731
01:05:45,142 --> 01:05:48,810
an internet community to help
music fans find MP3s,
1732
01:05:48,812 --> 01:05:51,079
I didn't' think it would be
embroiled in a legal battle.
1733
01:05:51,514 --> 01:05:53,148
But we are. And as you know,
1734
01:05:53,150 --> 01:05:55,050
the recording industry
has filed a suit
1735
01:05:55,052 --> 01:05:56,251
to shut Napster down.
1736
01:05:56,419 --> 01:05:57,585
To shut you down.
1737

01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:58,753

Today there as an important
1738
01:05:58,755 --> 01:05:59,721
hearing in court.
1739
01:05:59,723 --> 01:06:01,323
and the judge ruled against us.
1740
01:06:01,457 --> 01:06:02,924
Hank Barry, Napster CEO,
1741
01:06:02,926 --> 01:06:04,259
is here to tell you what
happened today
1742
01:06:04,427 --> 01:06:06,828
On the 27th of July,
we all gathered
1743
01:06:06,830 --> 01:06:08,330
in Judge Patel's courtroom
1744
01:06:08,332 --> 01:06:10,999
and uh, we had a hearing and it
was supposed to be
1745
01:06:11,001 --> 01:06:12,934
something relatively low key,
you know...
1746
01:06:12,936 --> 01:06:14,636
It was a hearing on a
preliminary injunction
1747
01:06:14,638 --> 01:06:19,007
motion that the labels, uh,
were moving
1748
01:06:19,009 --> 01:06:20,342
and uh, the judge
came in and uh,
1749
01:06:20,344 --> 01:06:23,078
right from the outset
didn't look good.
1750

01:06:23,479 --> 01:06:27,082

Uh, this is a preliminary
injunction uh, it's been
1751
01:06:27,084 --> 01:06:30,018
entered without the basis of any
evidentiary hearing.
1752
01:06:30,286 --> 01:06:31,686
We asked for an
evidentiary hearing.
1753
01:06:31,688 --> 01:06:34,122
We asked to have an
opportunity to come in,
1754
01:06:34,124 --> 01:06:36,291
cross-examine their witnesses,
to have this
1755
01:06:36,293 --> 01:06:39,961
decided not on the basis of uh,
15 minutes for me
1756
01:06:39,963 --> 01:06:42,230
and 15 minutes for Dan
Johnson argument.
1757
01:06:42,232 --> 01:06:46,001
But on the basis of
actual evidence.
1758
01:06:46,302 --> 01:06:48,636
We asked to have this
decided at trial.
1759
01:06:49,171 --> 01:06:51,973
Um, the Court decided to do
it on the basis
1760
01:06:52,341 --> 01:06:53,441
the Court decided to do it.
1761
01:06:53,443 --> 01:06:56,778
David Boies was a lot of hype.
He had just won
1762
01:06:58,147 --> 01:07:01,149

the Microsoft thing and had

had that big Aetna
1763
01:07:01,151 --> 01:07:03,051
thing that he had won etcetera,
etcetera.
1764
01:07:03,285 --> 01:07:04,919
So it was like, we got
the big name.
1765
01:07:05,121 --> 01:07:07,756
But, fundamentally, he did
not understand k
1766
01:07:07,758 --> 01:07:08,823
what was going on.
1767
01:07:09,892 --> 01:07:11,459
At a technical level.
1768
01:07:11,461 --> 01:07:16,131
So the legal arguments he was
making didn't fit with
1769
01:07:16,133 --> 01:07:18,066
what was actually going on.
1770
01:07:18,801 --> 01:07:22,771
And it was a complete and
utter disaster.
1771
01:07:22,773 --> 01:07:23,905
I felt like we had
developed a better
1772
01:07:23,907 --> 01:07:26,374
understanding of the
impact of the TMCA
1773
01:07:26,376 --> 01:07:28,343
and all the complexity
around trying to make
1774
01:07:28,345 --> 01:07:32,414
the case work. To watch it be
handled the way it was

1775
01:07:32,416 --> 01:07:35,417
with Patel. It was actually
very disheartening.
1776
01:07:36,152 --> 01:07:38,053
And then you know, Shawn's email
1777
01:07:38,055 --> 01:07:38,753
came out.
1778
01:07:38,755 --> 01:07:41,222
Uh, there were these early
memos that were
1779
01:07:41,224 --> 01:07:44,492
discovered, where um, I made
reference to the fact
1780
01:07:44,494 --> 01:07:45,794
that we were well aware
1781
01:07:45,796 --> 01:07:49,330
of the fact that our users
were pirating music.
1782
01:07:49,332 --> 01:07:51,800
Uh, and given that our users
were pirating music,
1783
01:07:52,068 --> 01:07:54,069
it might be, it might behoove us
1784
01:07:54,071 --> 01:07:56,037
to protect their anonymity.
1785
01:07:56,205 --> 01:07:57,705
So that our users weren't sued.
1786
01:07:57,707 --> 01:08:00,875
And the documents that
Judge Patel relied on
1787
01:08:00,877 --> 01:08:02,777
is the following...
1788
01:08:03,145 --> 01:08:05,780

Users will understand that they

are improving their
1789
01:08:05,782 --> 01:08:08,616
experience by providing
information about their
1790
01:08:08,618 --> 01:08:12,854
to name or address or other
sensitive data.
1791
01:08:14,123 --> 01:08:15,557
That might endanger them.
1792
01:08:15,559 --> 01:08:17,992
Especially since they
are exchanging
1793
01:08:17,994 --> 01:08:19,461
pirated music.
1794
01:08:19,995 --> 01:08:22,097
That is the
co-founder of Napster
1795
01:08:22,099 --> 01:08:24,699
writing what the system is
intended to do.
1796
01:08:24,701 --> 01:08:27,836
and it is exactly what the
system has done.
1797
01:08:27,838 --> 01:08:30,839
And this was uh, at a time
when uh, when we
1798
01:08:30,841 --> 01:08:32,507
believed that what
we were doing,
1799
01:08:32,509 --> 01:08:34,476
basically, just
facilitating relationships
1800
01:08:34,478 --> 01:08:36,010
between users so that they
could share music,

1801
01:08:36,012 --> 01:08:37,812
was totally legal under the DMC.
1802
01:08:37,947 --> 01:08:40,048
It was like essentially a
brainstorming document
1803
01:08:40,050 --> 01:08:46,754
where I used the word piracy.
Which was a, which was a
taboo word at Napster.
1804
01:08:46,756 --> 01:08:48,423
You're not allowed to talk about
piracy, only allowed
1805
01:08:48,425 --> 01:08:49,390
to talk about sharing.
1806
01:08:50,526 --> 01:08:53,094
The focus then became the email.
1807
01:08:54,597 --> 01:08:58,833
When in fact, there were all
these other issues.
1808
01:09:01,036 --> 01:09:03,004
So Sean became the scapegoat.
1809
01:09:03,472 --> 01:09:05,540
I, I was sort of on this
forced vacation...
1810
01:09:06,442 --> 01:09:08,443
...in North Carolina the, the
lawsuit was happening.
1811
01:09:08,445 --> 01:09:10,478
On the other side of the world,
1812
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:12,981
I was sitting in this beach
house and I got the call
1813
01:09:12,983 --> 01:09:15,984
from Alicia, who was

Hank's assistant.
1814
01:09:15,986 --> 01:09:21,322
And uh, and was writing the
litigation and she said
1815
01:09:21,324 --> 01:09:23,658
she said Sean it
doesn't look good.
1816
01:09:23,660 --> 01:09:26,394
And your memo is up on it,
it's blown up in a,
1817
01:09:26,396 --> 01:09:30,165
you know, 4000 point type on a
huge screen, in the
1818
01:09:30,167 --> 01:09:32,667
courtroom. And uh, you know,
they're calling you
1819
01:09:32,669 --> 01:09:34,702
a music pirate and they're
calling us all music pirates
1820
01:09:34,704 --> 01:09:36,237
and the judge doesn't like it.
1821
01:09:37,072 --> 01:09:38,973
They needed a nail. They found
the nail and they
1822
01:09:38,975 --> 01:09:42,377
put it straight into that
coffin and that was it.
1823
01:09:43,546 --> 01:09:46,881
Now, it was easy for the
business guys to say, 'look
1824
01:09:46,883 --> 01:09:50,818
this guy not only
doesn't add any value
1825
01:09:50,820 --> 01:09:54,055
in our opinion, but he also
wrote this email.

1826
01:09:54,057 --> 01:09:56,424
and it's all his fault.
1827
01:09:57,393 --> 01:09:58,726
There wasn't a whole lot I
could do about it.
1828
01:09:58,728 --> 01:10:01,362
it, it sort of, it sort of
was what it was.
1829
01:10:01,364 --> 01:10:03,164
The company needed to
make a clean break
1830
01:10:03,166 --> 01:10:04,499
from its past and try
to move forward.
1831
01:10:04,501 --> 01:10:07,569
Um, and so I sort of realized
1832
01:10:07,571 --> 01:10:08,503
that that was the end.
1833
01:10:08,505 --> 01:10:09,604
So I had this one
meeting with Hank,
1834
01:10:09,606 --> 01:10:14,075
he walked me through uh, walked
me through, then I
1835
01:10:14,077 --> 01:10:14,809
and that was it.
1836
01:10:15,844 --> 01:10:17,011
I vividly remember the
conversation of him
1837
01:10:17,013 --> 01:10:20,915
asking me to come to his aid
and help him preserve
1838
01:10:20,917 --> 01:10:22,183
his role in the company.

1839
01:10:22,618 --> 01:10:23,718
And after we talked for a while
1840
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:25,753
about what that would be
I just told him that I
1841
01:10:25,755 --> 01:10:27,755
thought he was lucky.
1842
01:10:28,157 --> 01:10:29,524
To be able to get out of this
thing and go work
1843
01:10:29,526 --> 01:10:30,692
on something else.
1844
01:10:31,093 --> 01:10:32,827
Um, because it had felt like,
1845
01:10:32,829 --> 01:10:37,398
you know, it had been uh,
nothing like the first
1846
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,168
you know, the first phase that
we had gone through
1847
01:10:40,170 --> 01:10:42,403
and enjoyed.
1848
01:10:43,872 --> 01:10:46,307
I don't know uh, if that
really contributed to it
1849
01:10:46,309 --> 01:10:47,408
that email. But I do know
1850
01:10:47,410 --> 01:10:48,409
that it had a huge effect
1851
01:10:48,411 --> 01:10:50,712
on the judge's perception
of our intent.
1852

01:10:50,714 --> 01:10:52,814

We are pleased with the
court's decision.
1853
01:10:52,816 --> 01:10:55,316
We think the decision
will pave the way
1854
01:10:55,318 --> 01:10:56,851
for the future of online music.
1855
01:10:57,353 --> 01:11:00,121
This once again
establishes that the rules
1856
01:11:00,123 --> 01:11:02,757
of the road are the same online
as they are offline.
1857
01:11:02,759 --> 01:11:05,159
And sends a strong
message to others
1858
01:11:05,161 --> 01:11:07,462
that they cannot build a
business based on other's
1859
01:11:07,464 --> 01:11:09,564
copyrighted works
without permission.
1860
01:11:09,566 --> 01:11:11,266
Have you heard from Metallica?
1861
01:11:11,734 --> 01:11:12,767
[laughs]
1862
01:11:12,769 --> 01:11:16,471
I have not. But I"m sure that
they are very pleased
1863
01:11:16,473 --> 01:11:19,307
and I'm sure that they and Dr.
Dre take great comfort
1864
01:11:19,309 --> 01:11:20,875
in the court's decision today.

1865
01:11:21,310 --> 01:11:23,478
'Cause until Napster gets
its day in court
1866
01:11:23,480 --> 01:11:27,248
if this injunction is not
stayed it will obviously
1867
01:11:27,250 --> 01:11:31,152
have a very severe effect on
Napster service.
1868
01:11:31,154 --> 01:11:33,421
So you will seek a stay?
then obviously?
1869
01:11:33,423 --> 01:11:37,158
I still find it difficult,
certainly a bit shocking
1870
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:39,060
uh, some things
happened this week
1871
01:11:39,062 --> 01:11:41,562
that I was certainly not
expecting to have
1872
01:11:41,564 --> 01:11:42,530
to deal with.
1873
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:46,301
Napster fights for survival.
1874
01:11:50,339 --> 01:11:51,773
Front page of CNN.
1875
01:11:52,641 --> 01:11:54,309
This is horrible.
1876
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,655
The Ninth Circuit issued an
order, it was only like two
sentences and it said...
1877
01:12:07,657 --> 01:12:09,557
This is a case of

first impression,
1878
01:12:09,559 --> 01:12:11,492
It's the first time we've ever
seen a case like this.
1879
01:12:11,494 --> 01:12:13,461
and we're gonna stay
the enforcement
1880
01:12:13,463 --> 01:12:16,397
'til such time as we, the
Ninth Circuit,
1881
01:12:16,399 --> 01:12:18,166
have had a chance to
look at the case.
1882
01:12:20,002 --> 01:12:21,235
Lawyers representing Napster
1883
01:12:21,237 --> 01:12:22,603
and the recording industry
1884
01:12:22,605 --> 01:12:24,505
squared off before a
three judge panel.
1885
01:12:24,773 --> 01:12:26,407
At the Ninth Circuit
Court of Appeals
1886
01:12:26,409 --> 01:12:27,709
in San Francisco.
1887
01:12:27,711 --> 01:12:28,443
And what the Supreme Court
was saying is you
1888
01:12:28,445 --> 01:12:30,945
can't take a snapshot and say,
1889
01:12:30,947 --> 01:12:32,613
how is it being used today?
1890
01:12:33,649 --> 01:12:36,250
What you've gotta ask is what is

what is it capable
1891
01:12:36,252 --> 01:12:37,685
of being used for?
1892
01:12:37,687 --> 01:12:41,222
Because otherwise, you're gonna
deprive the public
1893
01:12:41,224 --> 01:12:42,857
of something that can be used
1894
01:12:42,859 --> 01:12:44,025
for non-infringing uses.
1895
01:12:44,259 --> 01:12:47,028
They designed it to be a
pirate system.
1896
01:12:47,030 --> 01:12:49,297
No, they designed it
for fair use.
1897
01:12:49,299 --> 01:12:50,465
Samples?
No, no Sir.
1898
01:12:50,467 --> 01:12:52,967
Oh they designed it for
concert work.
1899
01:12:52,969 --> 01:12:54,869
That the authors really
1900
01:12:54,871 --> 01:12:56,871
don't care about a copyright.
1901
01:12:57,239 --> 01:13:00,608
Even though they have it out on
a, on a, on a recording.
1902
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:05,012
That's what they tell us.
1903
01:13:05,014 --> 01:13:06,414
- No that isn't...
- I've read their brief

1904
01:13:06,416 --> 01:13:08,883
That may be what they tell
you now, your Honor,
1905
01:13:08,885 --> 01:13:10,218
but they tell you...
1906
01:13:10,220 --> 01:13:14,622
Anything on MP3 file goes
through the Napster system
1907
01:13:14,624 --> 01:13:17,992
or does it go user to user
on a direct basis?
1908
01:13:18,460 --> 01:13:21,429
It doesn't go through the
Napster system...
1909
01:13:21,431 --> 01:13:22,830
You know, their hand,
their fingerprints,
1910
01:13:22,832 --> 01:13:24,832
you can't find them on those
things, can you?
1911
01:13:25,601 --> 01:13:27,001
The fingerprints you can't find
1912
01:13:27,003 --> 01:13:28,503
because Napster
doesn't want you to.
1913
01:13:28,505 --> 01:13:30,571
They don't touch 'em.They never
have anything to do with it.
1914
01:13:31,374 --> 01:13:35,643
My fellow in New Jersey, and
my fellow in Guam
1915
01:13:35,645 --> 01:13:37,078
will have a direct connection
1916
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:38,212

on the internet, right?

1917
01:13:38,614 --> 01:13:40,681
And that's how the music
is transmitted.
1918
01:13:40,683 --> 01:13:42,984
It is transmitted on the
internet and we are not
1919
01:13:42,986 --> 01:13:45,386
trying to stop the internet,
certainly.
1920
01:13:46,422 --> 01:13:48,389
That hearing ended about a
half an hour ago,
1921
01:13:48,391 --> 01:13:50,658
here in San Francisco. No
ruling from the court
1922
01:13:50,660 --> 01:13:52,760
is expected at lest for
another month,
1923
01:13:52,762 --> 01:13:54,295
but after that ruling
does come down,
1924
01:13:54,297 --> 01:13:56,130
many observers believe
that the final word
1925
01:13:56,132 --> 01:13:58,266
on Napster will
eventually and ultimately
1926
01:13:58,268 --> 01:14:00,401
end up coming from the US
Supreme Court.
1927
01:14:01,670 --> 01:14:04,672
I worked on several
presidential campaigns.
1928
01:14:04,674 --> 01:14:09,043
And I would say that the

pressure that Shawn

1929
01:14:09,045 --> 01:14:13,114
and Hank had on them
was just as much
1930
01:14:13,116 --> 01:14:15,650
as it would be on a
presidential candidate.
1931
01:14:15,652 --> 01:14:17,218
With the difference being
1932
01:14:17,220 --> 01:14:21,823
that they weren't asking for it.
Either one of them.
1933
01:14:21,825 --> 01:14:23,357
[music]
1934
01:14:23,359 --> 01:14:25,526
Ladies and gentlemen, this is
very exciting day
1935
01:14:25,528 --> 01:14:27,395
An element of this alliance
is that Napster
1936
01:14:27,397 --> 01:14:32,300
today, for Napster,
for Bertelsmann.
1937
01:14:32,302 --> 01:14:36,971
will develop something like
[inaudible] services.
1938
01:14:38,006 --> 01:14:39,640
Middelhoff was a very
genuine guy.
1939
01:14:39,642 --> 01:14:42,143
He had great energy and he
really believed in it.
1940
01:14:42,145 --> 01:14:43,911
And was trying to do
the right thing.

1941
01:14:44,580 --> 01:14:47,482
Took a big risk in getting
involved, especially given
1942
01:14:47,484 --> 01:14:50,651
the relationship that
Bertelsmen had with BMG.
1943
01:14:52,454 --> 01:14:54,322
That being said, it was
incredibly complex deal.
1944
01:14:54,324 --> 01:14:55,656
It was a ton of money.
1945
01:14:55,658 --> 01:14:57,825
None of them really,
none of them
1946
01:14:57,827 --> 01:15:02,697
did get the conviction or let me
say, did learn that
1947
01:15:02,699 --> 01:15:06,000
the business model and
still existing
1948
01:15:06,002 --> 01:15:07,935
business model of the
music industry,
1949
01:15:07,937 --> 01:15:09,637
isn't working anymore.
1950
01:15:10,172 --> 01:15:13,140
Yeah, and I think this was
clear in 2000, 2001,
1951
01:15:13,142 --> 01:15:16,577
when you saw how people
did use Napster.
1952
01:15:16,745 --> 01:15:19,013
I think this would have
changed the world
1953
01:15:19,015 --> 01:15:21,182

much more than Facebook

is doing today.
1954
01:15:21,683 --> 01:15:25,052
Just the fact that this huge
German media conglomerate
1955
01:15:25,054 --> 01:15:27,688
was coming in and gonna be
throwing some money
1956
01:15:27,690 --> 01:15:30,391
that I might be working for
a few more months.
1957
01:15:30,393 --> 01:15:32,593
So I felt okay about that.
1958
01:15:33,295 --> 01:15:34,228
I think that that,
1959
01:15:34,230 --> 01:15:36,097
that mindset was the
company's mindset.
1960
01:15:36,099 --> 01:15:38,199
They were weird, it was
a survival game
1961
01:15:38,201 --> 01:15:40,635
at that point. It was just, it,
it seemed wrong.
1962
01:15:40,637 --> 01:15:42,403
Everything seemed wrong.
1963
01:15:42,405 --> 01:15:45,006
There was a line crossed where
they were no longer
1964
01:15:45,008 --> 01:15:46,974
actually trying to make
a cool product.
1965
01:15:46,976 --> 01:15:48,075
We were just trying to survive.
1966

01:15:48,077 --> 01:15:51,112

Whatever it was, we were just
trying to find a way
1967
01:15:51,114 --> 01:15:52,747
to survive.
1968
01:15:52,749 --> 01:15:54,582
We developed a new
business model
1969
01:15:54,584 --> 01:15:55,950
for membership based service
1970
01:15:55,952 --> 01:15:57,118
going forward in the future.
1971
01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:59,820
And uh, we give money to Napster
1972
01:15:59,822 --> 01:16:02,790
to develop that model, to
implement it, and then
1973
01:16:02,792 --> 01:16:04,692
we're gonna join them
and we all hope,
1974
01:16:04,694 --> 01:16:06,160
and we're gonna work
jointly on this,
1975
01:16:06,162 --> 01:16:08,863
to make that happen as
soon as possible.
1976
01:16:08,865 --> 01:16:10,998
That's why Shawn has to get
back to California
1977
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:13,901
to get his cap on and start
decoding again.
1978
01:16:14,803 --> 01:16:16,571
Couldn't you preclude a search
under certain song

1979
01:16:16,573 --> 01:16:17,805
names and if you can do that
1980
01:16:17,807 --> 01:16:22,610
doesn't that suggest that
your efforts to stop
1981
01:16:22,612 --> 01:16:26,180
the trading of copyrighted
music is disingenuous?
1982
01:16:26,348 --> 01:16:28,716
No, because we have not
been able, ever,
1983
01:16:28,718 --> 01:16:30,718
to work anything out with
the plaintiffs.
1984
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:33,454
They simply refuse to talk,
refuse to cooperate.
1985
01:16:33,456 --> 01:16:36,691
in any effort to solve
this problem.
1986
01:16:38,126 --> 01:16:39,660
No, because, because
you're never going to
1987
01:16:39,662 --> 01:16:42,096
come up with a search that's
gonna satisfy them.
1988
01:16:42,731 --> 01:16:44,398
[beeping]
1989
01:16:49,938 --> 01:16:52,840
We had an entire row of
computers dedicated to
1990
01:16:52,842 --> 01:16:55,509
temps who just sat there, coming
up with variations
1991
01:16:55,511 --> 01:16:57,678

on artists names, that

needed to be blocked
1992
01:16:57,680 --> 01:16:59,680
so Madonna was one and you know,
1993
01:16:59,682 --> 01:17:01,215
so it was basically this
Whack The Mole game.
1994
01:17:02,851 --> 01:17:04,385
Blockage is bad.
1995
01:17:04,387 --> 01:17:07,321
Motherfucking alias names
like Limp Hashbrown,
1996
01:17:07,323 --> 01:17:10,257
In Suck, Flu Fighters,
Pappa Crotch,
1997
01:17:10,259 --> 01:17:12,960
Dick See Chicks and
Crotch Box 20.
1998
01:17:12,962 --> 01:17:16,197
When the effort went from you
know, trying to make
1999
01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:17,999
it a successful service and make
the product better,
2000
01:17:18,001 --> 01:17:20,601
to trying to uh, play this
game of Whack A Mole,
2001
01:17:20,603 --> 01:17:23,337
it was kind of you know,
foreshadowing
2002
01:17:23,339 --> 01:17:24,639
of a, what was to come.
2003
01:17:28,744 --> 01:17:30,444
Hopefully be able to show
to them that we do

2004
01:17:30,446 --> 01:17:32,513
support Napster and we do
believe in a cause.
2005
01:17:32,814 --> 01:17:34,582
And that basically, the
music's out there.
2006
01:17:34,584 --> 01:17:36,751
I mean they can't erase all
the MP3s that I have
2007
01:17:36,753 --> 01:17:39,987
and all the MP3s that tons of
millions and millions
of people...
2008
01:17:45,927 --> 01:17:48,329
Dedicated online music fans
maybe planning to
2009
01:17:48,331 --> 01:17:50,965
spend a hard day's night at
their computers.
2010
01:17:50,967 --> 01:17:52,433
Downloading free songs
2011
01:17:52,435 --> 01:17:54,802
through the popular
Napster website.
2012
01:17:55,170 --> 01:17:57,938
A San Francisco Federal Court
made it clear today
2013
01:17:57,940 --> 01:17:59,306
the times they are a changin'
2014
01:18:00,008 --> 01:18:01,208
It's been a somber week
2015
01:18:01,210 --> 01:18:03,144
for fans of copyright
infringement.
2016
01:18:03,345 --> 01:18:04,979

As a federal court judge ordered

2017
01:18:04,981 --> 01:18:07,381
popular file sharing service,
Napster,
2018
01:18:07,383 --> 01:18:09,817
to remove millions of
songs that are owned
2019
01:18:09,819 --> 01:18:11,652
by the major record labels.
2020
01:18:11,820 --> 01:18:13,754
Record companies fought
tooth and nail
2021
01:18:13,756 --> 01:18:15,890
over the issue and the
court's agreed.
2022
01:18:15,892 --> 01:18:18,492
It's the record companies
who hold the patent
2023
01:18:18,494 --> 01:18:20,394
on cheating musicians
out of money.
2024
01:18:21,596 --> 01:18:23,297
American intellectual property
2025
01:18:23,299 --> 01:18:26,500
is our nation's
greatest trade asset.
2026
01:18:26,502 --> 01:18:29,870
We cannot stand idly by as
our nation's assets
2027
01:18:29,872 --> 01:18:31,572
are in jeopardy or dismissed.
2028
01:18:31,873 --> 01:18:34,141
By those who would use them for
their own enrichment.
2029

01:18:34,376 --> 01:18:35,743

That's why today's decision
2030
01:18:35,745 --> 01:18:37,745
is so especially important.
2031
01:18:37,979 --> 01:18:40,414
<i>Now, Napster can take a nap.</i>
2032
01:18:42,250 --> 01:18:43,851
I'd like to add a word or
two about the future
2033
01:18:43,853 --> 01:18:44,719
of Napster.
2034
01:18:45,421 --> 01:18:48,789
we've been developing a Napster
service that offers
2035
01:18:48,791 --> 01:18:50,691
to members of the community.
2036
01:18:50,693 --> 01:18:53,094
and importantly, makes
payments to artists.
2037
01:18:54,463 --> 01:18:56,263
I"m focused on building
this better service
2038
01:18:56,265 --> 01:18:58,299
and I still hope to have it
in place this year.
2039
01:18:59,701 --> 01:19:00,968
The new technologies we
are developing
2040
01:19:00,970 --> 01:19:01,769
are amazing.
2041
01:19:01,771 --> 01:19:05,005
I hope that by further review,
or by agreement
2042
01:19:05,007 --> 01:19:08,209

we can find a way to share them

with the community.
2043
01:19:09,377 --> 01:19:10,644
I would also like to
thank everyone
2044
01:19:10,646 --> 01:19:12,246
for being so supportive.
2045
01:19:12,581 --> 01:19:14,448
Napster works because
people who love music,
2046
01:19:14,450 --> 01:19:15,416
share and participate.
2047
01:19:17,053 --> 01:19:19,353
many people have said it
would never work.
2048
01:19:19,921 --> 01:19:21,956
We've heard that we
couldn't survive before,
2049
01:19:21,958 --> 01:19:23,758
when we had 700,000 members
2050
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:26,060
and when we had 17
million members.
2051
01:19:27,062 --> 01:19:29,029
Today we have more than 50
million members.
2052
01:19:29,832 --> 01:19:31,766
to keep this community growing.
2053
01:19:33,201 --> 01:19:35,402
If we work together, I know
this will succeed.
2054
01:19:35,404 --> 01:19:36,704
Thanks.
2055
01:19:40,208 --> 01:19:45,746

The tipping point for my romance

was uh, after we were
injuncted and then
2056
01:19:45,748 --> 01:19:47,948
reinstated and then reinjuncted.
2057
01:19:48,283 --> 01:19:51,552
That was it. It was like
being broken up,
2058
01:19:51,554 --> 01:19:55,189
uh, with, with your favorite
girlfriend uh, and
2059
01:19:55,191 --> 01:19:58,025
and getting heartbroken and
then her coming back
2060
01:19:58,027 --> 01:20:00,461
to you and, and your heart
just like okay,
2061
01:20:00,463 --> 01:20:03,130
maybe I can look past the wound.
2062
01:20:03,132 --> 01:20:05,800
And, and nope, we reject you
again and I'm out.
2063
01:20:05,802 --> 01:20:08,435
It's like, ahhh, this sucks.
2064
01:20:08,637 --> 01:20:12,072
That was the point at which uhh,
I realized
2065
01:20:12,074 --> 01:20:14,008
that...
2066
01:20:14,509 --> 01:20:16,377
...the cool of what we had done
2067
01:20:16,379 --> 01:20:18,012
was pretty much over.
2068
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:21,682

You know, Ritter left

because of all this.
2069
01:20:21,684 --> 01:20:26,387
And Parker was shown the door
and Shawn Fanning
2070
01:20:26,389 --> 01:20:29,089
slowly became detached.
2071
01:20:30,091 --> 01:20:33,460
He...
2072
01:20:34,095 --> 01:20:38,799
...He would just sit at his desk
and strum his guitar.
2073
01:20:39,401 --> 01:20:41,569
And if you went up to him, to
ask him a question
2074
01:20:41,571 --> 01:20:42,703
or to talk to him
2075
01:20:43,405 --> 01:20:46,273
He would just keep
strumming his guitar.
2076
01:20:46,741 --> 01:20:52,112
And he'd look at you, he'd
look at you with like,
2077
01:20:52,114 --> 01:20:54,648
some curiosity as if
you're like an alien.
2078
01:20:55,150 --> 01:20:57,651
But he would just keep
strumming his guitar.
2079
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:01,956
And...
2080
01:21:03,391 --> 01:21:07,962
I think that, that was his way
of dealing with this.
2081

01:21:07,964 --> 01:21:11,265

That sort of pivotal,
pivotal sort of moment,
2082
01:21:11,267 --> 01:21:15,302
where uh, it looked like things
weren't going well
2083
01:21:15,304 --> 01:21:16,704
Fanning was ...
2084
01:21:17,305 --> 01:21:18,639
...on the cover of
Time Magazine.
2085
01:21:18,641 --> 01:21:21,141
Sort of, which is, in
American culture,
2086
01:21:21,143 --> 01:21:24,078
like the peak of public
recognition.
2087
01:21:24,246 --> 01:21:28,582
And it all felt, it felt sort
of, it all felt sort of false.
2088
01:21:28,817 --> 01:21:30,351
I think Fanning probably
felt the same way.
2089
01:21:30,353 --> 01:21:32,119
It's like he was going
through the motions
2090
01:21:32,121 --> 01:21:33,287
and doing what he had to do...
2091
01:21:33,289 --> 01:21:34,455
[clears throat]
2092
01:21:34,457 --> 01:21:37,057
Doing a huge amount of press.
But you could tell
2093
01:21:37,059 --> 01:21:40,895
that, that the company was
coming unglued.

2094
01:21:40,897 --> 01:21:42,897
Well, what's interesting is,
can I just start,
2095
01:21:42,899 --> 01:21:44,598
I'm so sorry, man, okay.
2096
01:21:45,100 --> 01:21:47,468
Well what's interesting is that,
that's not going to change.
2097
01:21:47,470 --> 01:21:50,070
We're going to maintain uh,
Napster uh,
2098
01:21:50,072 --> 01:21:52,239
in it's current form, what can
I start over again?
2099
01:21:52,241 --> 01:21:54,141
I'm sorry. I keep
mixing up my words.
2100
01:21:54,542 --> 01:21:56,844
Oh, those days in San Mateo,
2101
01:21:56,846 --> 01:21:59,647
that was our youth.
2102
01:21:59,649 --> 01:22:02,583
We had a lot of energy,
we were excited,
2103
01:22:02,585 --> 01:22:04,952
we were like a little kid
running around.
2104
01:22:05,253 --> 01:22:07,388
And then we became teenagers
2105
01:22:07,390 --> 01:22:13,560
and-and-and then the
lawsuit happened and we
2106
01:22:13,562 --> 01:22:15,462
started going into adulthood.

2107
01:22:16,131 --> 01:22:18,832
And we get these adult
figures coming in.
2108
01:22:19,634 --> 01:22:24,672
And we start to get older
and by the time
2109
01:22:24,674 --> 01:22:27,508
by the time it had gotten
close to the end
2110
01:22:27,510 --> 01:22:32,179
it was like, we're old,
we're fragile.
2111
01:22:32,181 --> 01:22:36,417
It's the end of days, so we're
just letting the time
2112
01:22:36,419 --> 01:22:38,953
pass. That's what it was like.
2113
01:22:39,721 --> 01:22:41,755
And I can remember right up
until the day that
2114
01:22:41,757 --> 01:22:44,992
I was fired, thinking,
there must be a shot.
2115
01:22:44,994 --> 01:22:46,694
There must, there's just no way
2116
01:22:46,696 --> 01:22:48,929
all this can just go away.
2117
01:22:49,397 --> 01:22:51,231
Uh, and then I
remember being out
2118
01:22:51,233 --> 01:22:52,933
the other end of the company
and still talking
2119
01:22:52,935 --> 01:22:54,568

to the folks that were there

2120
01:22:54,570 --> 01:22:55,703
and you'd keep hearing about,
you know,
2121
01:22:55,705 --> 01:22:58,639
the next Bertelsmann loan,
the next label deal,
2122
01:22:58,641 --> 01:23:00,107
discussions, the next and,
and you know,
2123
01:23:00,109 --> 01:23:01,775
and once you're removed from it,
you're just like oh,
2124
01:23:01,777 --> 01:23:03,877
Like this is not gonna happen.
2125
01:23:03,879 --> 01:23:07,214
Uh, but still, maybe
they're right and
2126
01:23:07,216 --> 01:23:09,950
uh, I don't, that, that, it's
amazing to me now
2127
01:23:09,952 --> 01:23:13,220
how there was not a
chance in hell
2128
01:23:13,222 --> 01:23:15,923
that any agreement was
gonna be come to.
2129
01:23:15,925 --> 01:23:19,093
There was a very long,
slow decline of Napster
at the end.
2130
01:23:19,095 --> 01:23:21,862
And ultimately getting shut down
2131
01:23:21,864 --> 01:23:26,133
when the filtering
was ineffective

2132
01:23:26,135 --> 01:23:29,069
because the technology
wasn't there yet.
2133
01:23:29,604 --> 01:23:33,107
Um, 98 point something percent,
2134
01:23:33,109 --> 01:23:35,409
wasn't good enough.
2135
01:23:37,879 --> 01:23:39,580
I called Ali Aydar and I said,
2136
01:23:39,582 --> 01:23:41,015
'You know, we need to turn off
2137
01:23:41,017 --> 01:23:41,982
the file sharing here.'
2138
01:23:42,284 --> 01:23:45,519
we never talked about this,
but can you do it?
2139
01:23:45,521 --> 01:23:47,321
And he said, 'Yeah,
I can do it.'
2140
01:23:47,323 --> 01:23:48,989
And he left the room
2141
01:23:48,991 --> 01:23:50,924
and he came back in a
couple hours and said,
2142
01:23:50,926 --> 01:23:54,161
'I turned everything off, but
it's still working.'
2143
01:23:54,329 --> 01:23:55,729
And it found, and we found
out that there were
2144
01:23:55,731 --> 01:23:57,865
a bunch of open Nap
servers out there,

2145
01:23:57,867 --> 01:23:59,433
that were not controlled
by the company.
2146
01:23:59,734 --> 01:24:01,168
That other people
had implemented
2147
01:24:01,170 --> 01:24:02,970
and were around the world,
so the, the
2148
01:24:02,972 --> 01:24:04,004
software client was
still working,
2149
01:24:04,006 --> 01:24:06,573
but we, the company had
nothing to do with it.
2150
01:24:16,384 --> 01:24:18,619
Today, Napster filed
for bankruptcy.
2151
01:24:18,787 --> 01:24:20,154
Oh man, we, we had
to have raised
2152
01:24:20,156 --> 01:24:21,388
north of a hundred
million dollars.
2153
01:24:21,390 --> 01:24:23,657
So and that, I don't
think any of us know
2154
01:24:23,659 --> 01:24:24,358
where that went.
2155
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:26,493
This was such a common
question from people
2156
01:24:26,495 --> 01:24:28,328
which was sort of, how do
you make money
2157

01:24:28,330 --> 01:24:30,864

and investment vs.
actually making money
2158
01:24:30,866 --> 01:24:33,534
from service, but you know,
the idea is that
2159
01:24:33,536 --> 01:24:35,135
we're not gonna
generate any revenue
2160
01:24:35,137 --> 01:24:36,570
until we can actually
pay artists.
2161
01:24:36,572 --> 01:24:40,040
And it's hard to actually think
of a startup that's
2162
01:24:40,042 --> 01:24:42,009
ever raised that amount of money
2163
01:24:42,011 --> 01:24:43,243
that went away as quickly.
2164
01:24:43,245 --> 01:24:45,079
Like, usually if you raise a
hundred million dollars,
2165
01:24:45,081 --> 01:24:47,915
in a startup, like you got
about five years
2166
01:24:47,917 --> 01:24:48,916
of, of runway.
2167
01:24:48,918 --> 01:24:51,318
Like you've got a ton of runway.
2168
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,720
The thing is 80 million of it
came from Bertelsmann.
2169
01:24:55,356 --> 01:24:56,990
Thirty million probably went
back to Bertelsmann.

2170
01:24:56,992 --> 01:24:59,426
Using all their other services,
right?
2171
01:24:59,428 --> 01:25:01,762
Yeah. But then the B was 15.
2172
01:25:01,764 --> 01:25:02,963
We gave a million dollars to Dr.
Dre.
2173
01:25:03,398 --> 01:25:04,932
Another million dollars
to Metallica.
2174
01:25:06,367 --> 01:25:07,901
I have no, I mean
it's just crazy.
2175
01:25:07,903 --> 01:25:08,936
This is mind boggling dude.
2176
01:25:08,938 --> 01:25:11,038
I mean in, in any
investment calculation,
2177
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:13,574
you say the paying capital let's
say, 115 million dollars.
2178
01:25:13,576 --> 01:25:16,410
And then the company did so
badly that it went to zero
2179
01:25:16,412 --> 01:25:19,847
and so the money lost, was
115 million dollars.
2180
01:25:20,148 --> 01:25:23,016
But wait, there's more. In
Napster's case,
2181
01:25:23,018 --> 01:25:25,853
you have to now tally the
settlement dollars
2182
01:25:25,855 --> 01:25:27,254

that will float out

of Bertelsmann
2183
01:25:27,256 --> 01:25:28,689
and everyone else and Hummer.
2184
01:25:29,224 --> 01:25:32,926
You're talking about a 500
million dollar sink hole.
2185
01:25:32,928 --> 01:25:35,629
Perhaps more that
went on for years
2186
01:25:35,631 --> 01:25:38,499
after the asset was sold out of
Chapter 7 Bankruptcy.
2187
01:25:39,134 --> 01:25:40,134
We went to the uh...
2188
01:25:40,136 --> 01:25:41,268
Good job.
2189
01:25:41,270 --> 01:25:42,803
Yeah, so thanks...
2190
01:25:42,805 --> 01:25:44,071
Wow, man.
2191
01:25:44,073 --> 01:25:45,772
I promised, I
promised I wouldn't,
2192
01:25:45,774 --> 01:25:47,474
but yeah, uh, and that's
Shawn's fault,
2193
01:25:47,476 --> 01:25:48,609
for the record.
2194
01:25:48,611 --> 01:25:50,377
- Uh, no.
- That's kind of crazy.
2195
01:25:50,879 --> 01:25:52,913
But we went to, we took

this awkward drive

2196
01:25:52,915 --> 01:25:53,981
like a year, I think ...
2197
01:25:53,983 --> 01:25:55,449
[conversation fades out]
2198
01:25:56,084 --> 01:25:57,518
[ping pong ball bouncing]
2199
01:25:59,154 --> 01:26:00,053
[no audible dialogue]
2200
01:26:08,663 --> 01:26:10,364
We thought about going to
the Supreme Court,
2201
01:26:10,366 --> 01:26:11,932
we got advice from the lawyers
2202
01:26:11,934 --> 01:26:13,100
that the timing wasn't right.
2203
01:26:13,102 --> 01:26:15,135
That we should wait until
there was more decision
2204
01:26:15,137 --> 01:26:16,236
in the trial.
2205
01:26:17,272 --> 01:26:18,305
Do you regret that?
2206
01:26:18,307 --> 01:26:19,540
I regret it now, yeah.
2207
01:26:20,241 --> 01:26:21,575
I would have liked to taken it
2208
01:26:21,577 --> 01:26:23,644
I would like to have
had a jury trial.
2209
01:26:23,646 --> 01:26:24,845
You know, we never had

a jury trial.
2210
01:26:25,614 --> 01:26:28,682
<i>is the effective shut down</i>
<i>of Napster.</i>
2211
01:26:29,083 --> 01:26:30,851
And what that's going to
do is give birth
2212
01:26:30,853 --> 01:26:33,020
to a thousand of Napster spawn.
2213
01:26:33,188 --> 01:26:34,021
And these children
2214
01:26:34,023 --> 01:26:35,556
are going to be much
better bred.
2215
01:26:35,857 --> 01:26:37,791
So once the record companies
2216
01:26:37,793 --> 01:26:39,860
went after Napster, did that end
2217
01:26:39,862 --> 01:26:41,628
this kind of illegal
music sharing?
2218
01:26:41,630 --> 01:26:43,597
This pirated music sharing
on the internet?
2219
01:26:43,599 --> 01:26:46,033
Actually,not at all. There's
a theory out there
2220
01:26:46,035 --> 01:26:48,202
that piracy will be eradicated
2221
01:26:48,204 --> 01:26:50,270
and no one will ever
share a music file.
2222
01:26:50,272 --> 01:26:52,606
But that's really a

pipe dream for

2223
01:26:52,608 --> 01:26:54,374
[stammer] really
getting everything
2224
01:26:54,376 --> 01:26:55,842
getting the internet
under control.
2225
01:26:56,110 --> 01:26:57,377
What was seen from piracy,
2226
01:26:57,379 --> 01:26:59,279
is that after Napster
2227
01:26:59,281 --> 01:27:01,315
people went to other music
sharing software.
2228
01:27:01,317 --> 01:27:05,185
Such as Limewire, or Morpheus,
Gnutella or Music City.
2229
01:27:05,187 --> 01:27:05,953
Things like that.
2230
01:27:06,921 --> 01:27:09,423
A bomb went off and nobody knew
2231
01:27:09,425 --> 01:27:10,490
what the hell was happening.
2232
01:27:10,492 --> 01:27:12,960
The cat wasn't going
back in the bag.
2233
01:27:13,127 --> 01:27:14,928
I don't care how many
people we sued.
2234
01:27:14,930 --> 01:27:18,265
I don't care how effective or
ineffective the RIAA
2235
01:27:18,267 --> 01:27:20,867
were, was with certain

aspects of it.
2236
01:27:20,869 --> 01:27:22,269
It wasn't going back.
2237
01:27:22,604 --> 01:27:24,271
People are gonna still
download for free.
2238
01:27:24,273 --> 01:27:26,540
It's free! It's free.
2239
01:27:26,542 --> 01:27:29,109
It's wrong, but it's free.
2240
01:27:29,111 --> 01:27:32,813
If there is an under-net of
piracy, that's something
2241
01:27:33,114 --> 01:27:35,115
that our industry has always
had to live with.
2242
01:27:35,117 --> 01:27:38,885
The idea is to keep
commercial pirates out
2243
01:27:38,887 --> 01:27:40,921
of the marketplace, so that
legitimate commerce
2244
01:27:40,923 --> 01:27:45,626
They were saying was it's just a
matter of copyright is
gonna be fixed.
2245
01:27:45,628 --> 01:27:48,295
And maintained by, by
some combination of
2246
01:27:48,297 --> 01:27:50,297
enforcement and education.
2247
01:27:50,465 --> 01:27:51,865
And I said, well this
sounds a lot like
2248

01:27:51,867 --> 01:27:54,668

the war on drugs, guys, I mean,
I don't think
2249
01:27:54,670 --> 01:27:56,036
this is gonna work.
2250
01:27:56,038 --> 01:27:57,371
That certainly didn't.
2251
01:27:57,373 --> 01:28:00,040
File sharing services allow for
the illegal downloading
2252
01:28:00,042 --> 01:28:02,376
of copyrighted works,
which can get you
2253
01:28:02,378 --> 01:28:03,577
into trouble in a hurry.
2254
01:28:03,579 --> 01:28:05,979
Many parents may be
surprised to learn
2255
01:28:05,981 --> 01:28:08,715
those consequences can
include lawsuits
2256
01:28:08,717 --> 01:28:11,451
with penalties and
legal fees costing
2257
01:28:11,453 --> 01:28:12,686
thousands of dollars.
2258
01:28:13,354 --> 01:28:15,989
Downloading or sharing music
without permission
2259
01:28:15,991 --> 01:28:17,424
is not okay.
2260
01:28:17,426 --> 01:28:19,326
I don't think people are
stealing music.
2261

01:28:20,295 --> 01:28:22,896

I think the record
companies are not
2262
01:28:22,898 --> 01:28:23,664
adjusting
2263
01:28:23,998 --> 01:28:25,132
to technology.
2264
01:28:25,433 --> 01:28:26,667
But rather than adjust
2265
01:28:26,669 --> 01:28:29,736
and figure out how to work
with it and use it,
2266
01:28:29,738 --> 01:28:30,937
they fought it.
2267
01:28:30,939 --> 01:28:33,407
And they started to sue
their customers.
2268
01:28:33,409 --> 01:28:37,678
And everything. And I, I think
that alienated them
2269
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:40,514
from both the public
and the artists.
2270
01:28:40,982 --> 01:28:43,917
Can you explain again,
[inaudible] what,
2271
01:28:43,919 --> 01:28:45,719
if anything, you're doing
to catch thieves?
2272
01:28:47,889 --> 01:28:51,458
Well, we have tried to be, uh,
and I think,
2273
01:28:51,460 --> 01:28:54,494
have succeeded in being
as responsible

2274
01:28:54,496 --> 01:28:56,697
in this space toward
individual users
2275
01:28:56,699 --> 01:28:58,598
as anyone could hope to expect
2276
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:00,367
from the music industry.
2277
01:29:00,369 --> 01:29:06,273
We have historically been um,
very uh, tolerant of
2278
01:29:06,275 --> 01:29:08,508
of downloaders, but
very aggressive
2279
01:29:08,510 --> 01:29:10,143
against the uploaders.
2280
01:29:10,145 --> 01:29:13,780
We have tried to be focused on
distribution sites
2281
01:29:13,782 --> 01:29:15,682
with significant
amounts of music.
2282
01:29:15,883 --> 01:29:18,552
I don't think this is about
punishing individuals.
2283
01:29:18,986 --> 01:29:21,621
Well, they did. They sued over
18 thousand regular
2284
01:29:21,623 --> 01:29:24,524
old normal people and uh,
average settlement size
2285
01:29:24,526 --> 01:29:26,126
was about $4000 dollars.
2286
01:29:26,128 --> 01:29:28,662
from people who could
hardly afford $4000.

2287
01:29:28,664 --> 01:29:30,030
So I don't think that
was a good move.
2288
01:29:30,032 --> 01:29:32,799
Particularly from a public
relations perspective.
2289
01:29:32,801 --> 01:29:35,001
You don't get your
market to like you
2290
01:29:35,003 --> 01:29:36,236
by suing the shit out of them.
2291
01:29:36,871 --> 01:29:39,806
I mean what they've done is to,
is to turn an entire
2292
01:29:39,808 --> 01:29:42,776
generation of kids into
electronic hezbollah.
2293
01:29:42,944 --> 01:29:45,545
Who hate them for
ideological reasons.
2294
01:29:46,047 --> 01:29:48,382
I mean I know a lot of
people that, that won't
2295
01:29:48,384 --> 01:29:49,716
buy music, period.
2296
01:29:49,718 --> 01:29:51,718
Because they don't want to
enrich those people.
2297
01:29:52,754 --> 01:29:54,554
And they didn't have to
have it like that.
2298
01:29:55,823 --> 01:29:57,824
[music]
2299
01:30:00,862 --> 01:30:03,330

Good hard working people all of

a sudden got laid off
2300
01:30:03,332 --> 01:30:06,066
as major music industries,
entire floors were turning
2301
01:30:06,068 --> 01:30:08,402
I remember, you know,
people who'd been
2302
01:30:08,404 --> 01:30:10,170
working so hard, doing
such great work,
2303
01:30:10,172 --> 01:30:12,005
there's no longer a need
for them because
2304
01:30:12,007 --> 01:30:14,207
the market shrinking
because these people
2305
01:30:14,209 --> 01:30:16,943
kind of caved in on
their own greed.
2306
01:30:16,945 --> 01:30:20,247
Their bosses, their CEOs, their
rock star A&R people
2307
01:30:20,249 --> 01:30:23,216
all of a sudden, realized
they'd been shoveling
2308
01:30:23,218 --> 01:30:25,752
a bunch of mediocre crap to
a bunch of people
2309
01:30:25,754 --> 01:30:27,354
who they devalued.
2310
01:30:27,356 --> 01:30:29,823
But now the people
have a choice.
2311
01:30:29,957 --> 01:30:31,992
They can cherry pick

the records.
2312
01:30:31,994 --> 01:30:35,061
They now can not have to take
it from you for $22
2313
01:30:35,764 --> 01:30:38,899
They can now spend three bucks
on the three songs
2314
01:30:38,901 --> 01:30:40,434
that got made into videos.
2315
01:30:40,735 --> 01:30:43,770
And everything came loose.
2316
01:30:43,772 --> 01:30:45,205
Well it's the perfect storm,
again.
2317
01:30:45,207 --> 01:30:46,273
It's three sides really,
2318
01:30:46,275 --> 01:30:47,274
when you really think about it.
2319
01:30:47,276 --> 01:30:50,343
Free is a pretty big component.
2320
01:30:51,813 --> 01:30:56,249
The corporatization of
America and the world
2321
01:30:56,251 --> 01:30:57,951
in creative companies.
2322
01:30:58,319 --> 01:30:59,386
Right?
2323
01:31:00,755 --> 01:31:02,355
And the downsizing of
the structure
2324
01:31:02,357 --> 01:31:03,824
of the music companies.
2325

01:31:04,158 --> 01:31:06,927

The whole crux of the argument,
I guess, is
2326
01:31:06,929 --> 01:31:09,663
that there's great things
2327
01:31:09,665 --> 01:31:13,300
about modern technology, music
and there's things that's shit.
2328
01:31:13,302 --> 01:31:14,668
And there's great things
about the past,
2329
01:31:14,670 --> 01:31:16,503
some of the past stories
2330
01:31:16,505 --> 01:31:18,538
had to go because the
people demanded it.
2331
01:31:19,273 --> 01:31:21,041
Therein lies the problem.
2332
01:31:21,209 --> 01:31:24,911
I think uh, we dropped
the ball you know,
2333
01:31:24,913 --> 01:31:27,013
but I-I-I don't see why
2334
01:31:27,015 --> 01:31:30,817
we can't read you know,
recapture it to some degree.
2335
01:31:30,819 --> 01:31:36,790
But uh, it'll it'll never be
like it was, when we
controlled everything.
2336
01:31:36,792 --> 01:31:39,526
Napster ended up,
unfortunately in the strip
2337
01:31:39,528 --> 01:31:44,931
they [inaudible] process and
when uh, people like Steve Jobs,

2338
01:31:44,933 --> 01:31:47,801
they were so smart and business
smart, that they said
2339
01:31:47,803 --> 01:31:51,771
where is talent okay, we hire
the Napster people.
2340
01:31:51,773 --> 01:31:55,141
iTunes in the US has an
84% market share
2341
01:31:55,143 --> 01:31:57,611
last month for all legally
downloaded music.
2342
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:01,214
I don't think you can point to
any digital music
2343
01:32:01,216 --> 01:32:04,284
service that exists now that
doesn't uh, tip its hat
2344
01:32:04,286 --> 01:32:06,219
in some way to Napster.
2345
01:32:06,221 --> 01:32:08,622
and I, I can tell you
that you know
2346
01:32:08,624 --> 01:32:11,224
with the first version of iTunes
that was released,
2347
01:32:11,226 --> 01:32:15,128
had shocking similarity to the
UI that Napster was using.
2348
01:32:15,130 --> 01:32:16,796
And I don't think that
was accidental.
2349
01:32:17,698 --> 01:32:20,767
When we finally, we made
money at Napster.

2350
01:32:20,769 --> 01:32:25,138
So, I mean that we, I was left
with pretty significant
2351
01:32:25,140 --> 01:32:29,476
legal debt. Um, which was you
know, to the extent
2352
01:32:29,478 --> 01:32:31,244
that Napster was like
Napster University.
2353
01:32:31,246 --> 01:32:33,713
Was actually not that
different from
2354
01:32:33,715 --> 01:32:35,949
the college debt that most kids
would have at that age.
2355
01:32:36,551 --> 01:32:40,353
Sort of comparable uh, in scale.
2356
01:32:40,355 --> 01:32:43,223
Uh, so, but I had this,
this legal debt
2357
01:32:43,225 --> 01:32:45,025
and Fanning wasn't that
much better off.
2358
01:32:45,192 --> 01:32:46,760
After Napster was shut down,
2359
01:32:46,762 --> 01:32:49,529
Shawn Fanning and I cofounded
2360
01:32:49,531 --> 01:32:51,665
a company called Snocap.
2361
01:32:52,266 --> 01:32:56,303
Which was Shawn's
attempt to rectify
2362
01:32:56,305 --> 01:32:58,405
the rights issues.

2363
01:32:58,407 --> 01:32:59,606
Having been a bit disillusioned
2364
01:32:59,608 --> 01:33:00,707
with how the case had gone
2365
01:33:00,709 --> 01:33:02,576
and the way that the
conversation
2366
01:33:02,578 --> 01:33:04,477
and debate had operated at such
a superficial level
2367
01:33:04,479 --> 01:33:07,380
I jumped on this idea of
wanting to create
2368
01:33:07,382 --> 01:33:09,316
an independent
copyright database
2369
01:33:09,318 --> 01:33:12,886
where any rights holder,
independent or otherwise
2370
01:33:12,888 --> 01:33:14,454
could register their work.
2371
01:33:14,456 --> 01:33:15,488
And the idea was that
2372
01:33:15,490 --> 01:33:16,489
everything that was unclaimed,
2373
01:33:16,491 --> 01:33:17,991
would be freely sharable
2374
01:33:17,993 --> 01:33:19,859
until somebody came in and
said this is mine.
2375
01:33:20,195 --> 01:33:22,529
to try to work back
towards a world
2376

01:33:22,531 --> 01:33:25,332

where all this
interesting diverse music
2377
01:33:25,334 --> 01:33:26,466
would be available.
2378
01:33:26,601 --> 01:33:28,802
And it was nice and it made
sense in my head,
2379
01:33:28,804 --> 01:33:29,903
but the actual act
2380
01:33:29,905 --> 01:33:31,171
of trying to get
everyone to buy into
2381
01:33:31,173 --> 01:33:34,608
as an intermediary was an
incredibly challenging
2382
01:33:34,610 --> 01:33:37,644
What happened was there was a
lot of excitement
2383
01:33:37,646 --> 01:33:41,448
and, and there was a lot of
interest in Snocap
2384
01:33:41,450 --> 01:33:46,086
until Steve Jobs came up
with his deals
2385
01:33:46,088 --> 01:33:49,122
and the iTune Store. Not
because Snocap
2386
01:33:49,124 --> 01:33:52,292
was't a great idea, but
because the industry was
2387
01:33:52,294 --> 01:33:54,661
not prepared. They
felt much safer
2388
01:33:54,663 --> 01:33:57,230
with one retailer.

2389
01:33:57,832 --> 01:33:58,965
And once that happened,
2390
01:33:58,967 --> 01:34:01,368
you could just see the air go
out of the tires.
2391
01:34:01,770 --> 01:34:04,771
It was, actually, that was one
of the hardest times for me.
2392
01:34:04,773 --> 01:34:07,340
I had just, and then you know,
I, I just uh,
2393
01:34:07,342 --> 01:34:11,111
'cause I enjoyed it and uh,
eventually started a,
2394
01:34:11,113 --> 01:34:14,481
you know, a company, but it
took uh, gaming and
2395
01:34:14,483 --> 01:34:15,548
sold it to EA.
2396
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:22,055
I'm very fond of both of them,
personally.
2397
01:34:22,057 --> 01:34:23,289
And...
2398
01:34:23,291 --> 01:34:25,692
I think Shawn Fanning...
2399
01:34:26,727 --> 01:34:28,561
...is coming through it
reasonably well.
2400
01:34:29,130 --> 01:34:32,532
I-I-I-I think Sean Parker is
having a difficult time
2401
01:34:32,534 --> 01:34:35,335
in ways that you know,

I would too.
2402
01:34:35,337 --> 01:34:38,772
I mean it's, first of all, he
was, he was crushed.
2403
01:34:39,340 --> 01:34:40,674
And then he came up with
something else
2404
01:34:40,676 --> 01:34:42,208
that was great, which was Plaxo,
2405
01:34:42,210 --> 01:34:44,177
and it never had the opportunity
2406
01:34:44,179 --> 01:34:45,578
to demonstrate that greatness.
2407
01:34:45,580 --> 01:34:47,380
and he was crushed again.
2408
01:34:48,349 --> 01:34:50,750
And then he attached
himself to Facebook
2409
01:34:50,752 --> 01:34:53,887
and has made an absurd
amount of money.
2410
01:34:55,189 --> 01:34:56,523
He actually came up with,
I think,
2411
01:34:56,525 --> 01:34:57,924
some of the most important ideas
2412
01:34:57,926 --> 01:35:00,460
that drove the
success of Facebook.
2413
01:35:00,695 --> 01:35:03,063
I mean while he was living
in my apartment.
2414
01:35:03,065 --> 01:35:05,065
I, I was there. I

watched it happen.
2415
01:35:05,567 --> 01:35:09,502
he's genuinely
trying to reinvent
2416
01:35:09,504 --> 01:35:10,603
the music business.
2417
01:35:11,706 --> 01:35:12,839
With Spotify.
2418
01:35:13,174 --> 01:35:16,242
It seems incredibly archaic that
we've' come this far
2419
01:35:16,244 --> 01:35:18,178
and we finally started to
figure out that there's
2420
01:35:18,180 --> 01:35:22,015
models like Spotify, models
like iTunes that,
2421
01:35:22,017 --> 01:35:24,551
that work, that are
beginning to restore
2422
01:35:24,553 --> 01:35:25,485
growth to this industry.
2423
01:35:25,487 --> 01:35:28,855
And, and even as all of this is
starting to click,
2424
01:35:28,857 --> 01:35:30,957
you still have these
reactionary lawmakers
2425
01:35:30,959 --> 01:35:33,526
who think they can legislate
2426
01:35:33,528 --> 01:35:34,761
the problem away.
2427
01:35:35,664 --> 01:35:38,465
that's somehow gonna

solve piracy.
2428
01:35:38,467 --> 01:35:39,399
I mean haven't they
learned anything
2429
01:35:39,401 --> 01:35:41,501
from watching the
last ten years.
2430
01:35:41,936 --> 01:35:43,903
of peer-to-peer distribution>
2431
01:35:43,905 --> 01:35:47,273
It's not connected to any
particular IP address.
2432
01:35:47,275 --> 01:35:48,908
It's totally decentralized.
2433
01:35:48,910 --> 01:35:50,977
I think of what we've seen
in the last decade
2434
01:35:50,979 --> 01:35:55,448
is that this war, which has
basically criminalized a
2435
01:35:55,450 --> 01:35:59,419
whole generation is uh,
culture's Vietnam.
2436
01:35:59,421 --> 01:36:02,422
Uh, it's been a
complete disaster.
2437
01:36:02,424 --> 01:36:04,524
It has not achieved
its objectives.
2438
01:36:05,893 --> 01:36:07,160
Which should be to pay artists,
uh.
2439
01:36:08,462 --> 01:36:10,130
The only people that have
gotten paid in this war

2440
01:36:10,132 --> 01:36:13,767
Who've been waging the
ever-expanding
2441
01:36:13,769 --> 01:36:16,069
legal actions against people
2442
01:36:16,071 --> 01:36:18,304
using culture the way
technology seems
2443
01:36:18,306 --> 01:36:19,639
to encourage them to use it.
2444
01:36:19,641 --> 01:36:22,142
There's always this idea
that the format
2445
01:36:22,144 --> 01:36:24,778
and the style of the way
people access culture
2446
01:36:24,780 --> 01:36:27,180
is gonna destroy an industry,
you know.
2447
01:36:27,182 --> 01:36:29,382
So people tend to get like
psychologically
2448
01:36:29,384 --> 01:36:32,051
bugged out, you know,
completely not
2449
01:36:32,053 --> 01:36:34,587
being aware that the
change underneath
2450
01:36:34,589 --> 01:36:36,356
their feet is the way we live.
2451
01:36:36,358 --> 01:36:38,424
Alright, here we go.
2452
01:36:38,793 --> 01:36:40,527
?In the squares of the city

2453
01:36:40,529 --> 01:36:43,163
We live in a very new world.
2454
01:36:43,165 --> 01:36:45,131
You know, technology in the
last ten years,
2455
01:36:45,133 --> 01:36:46,399
has turned the world
on its head.
2456
01:36:48,269 --> 01:36:50,837
Art and artists are going to
start revolutions
2457
01:36:50,839 --> 01:36:53,439
We've already seen it in
the year of 2011.
2458
01:36:54,041 --> 01:36:56,342
Art and artists are going to
change governments.
2459
01:36:56,344 --> 01:36:58,444
They're going to change the
direction of rivers.
2460
01:36:58,879 --> 01:37:01,681
And it's gonna be done
through flash mobs,
2461
01:37:01,683 --> 01:37:02,949
file sharing.
2462
01:37:02,951 --> 01:37:05,785
People vous le vous-ing
half-way across the world
2463
01:37:05,787 --> 01:37:08,354
in a microsecond on their
hand-held device.
2464
01:37:08,823 --> 01:37:10,623
Trading music, trading files.
2465
01:37:10,625 --> 01:37:12,659
This front of

information in music
2466
01:37:12,661 --> 01:37:14,861
it makes, it makes me hopeful
2467
01:37:14,863 --> 01:37:16,529
and it makes me sleep
well at night.
2468
01:37:16,864 --> 01:37:18,865
In that, the more the
music flows,
2469
01:37:18,867 --> 01:37:20,166
the more the information flows,
2470
01:37:20,168 --> 01:37:22,869
the more wiki keeps
leak leaking,
2471
01:37:22,871 --> 01:37:25,471
the more governments are going
to be hard pressed
2472
01:37:25,473 --> 01:37:27,373
to be more transparent.
2473
01:37:28,175 --> 01:37:31,578
[crowd singing]
2474
01:37:38,018 --> 01:37:41,387
The main thing here is for
people to recognize
2475
01:37:44,158 --> 01:37:45,992
That what we're
doing is creating
2476
01:37:45,994 --> 01:37:47,460
the foundations of the future
2477
01:37:47,462 --> 01:37:49,062
in a very fundamental way.
2478
01:37:49,797 --> 01:37:53,700
I mean we are building the
future that we all

2479
01:37:53,702 --> 01:37:56,069
might want or might not want.
2480
01:37:56,071 --> 01:37:58,071
Depending on our current
vested interest.
2481
01:37:59,306 --> 01:38:03,243
And I think that it takes a
really crummy ancestor
2482
01:38:03,245 --> 01:38:06,212
to want to maintain his
current business model
2483
01:38:06,214 --> 01:38:10,717
at the expense of his
descendants' ability
2484
01:38:10,719 --> 01:38:13,720
to understand the
world around them.
2485
01:38:14,455 --> 01:38:16,356
And if you really want
to figure out
2486
01:38:16,358 --> 01:38:20,360
which side you're on here, ask
yourself you know,
2487
01:38:20,362 --> 01:38:22,328
what's gonna make you a
better ancestor?
2488
01:38:24,932 --> 01:38:26,966
[music]
2489
01:38:32,740 --> 01:38:35,642
The journey was like a, was
like a theme park ride
2490
01:38:35,644 --> 01:38:37,176
or something. IT was like
Pirates of the Caribbean.
2491

01:38:37,778 --> 01:38:39,078

People just like you know,
2492
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:41,214
weird scary people
popping up at you.
2493
01:38:41,216 --> 01:38:43,650
and you're kind of moving
through this thing.
2494
01:38:44,151 --> 01:38:45,318
You're not really in control.
2495
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:49,822
we're in like a you know, a
little, little, you know, car
2496
01:38:49,824 --> 01:38:52,392
at the top of a giant hill
and we got all the
2497
01:38:52,394 --> 01:38:53,760
momentum and inertia
at the start
2498
01:38:53,762 --> 01:38:55,194
and the rest of it is just
trying to survive
2499
01:38:55,196 --> 01:38:57,297
the downhill, you know,
slope and...
2500
01:38:57,299 --> 01:39:00,433
The drunk skiing or the
Pirates of the Caribbean.
2501
01:39:01,669 --> 01:39:02,936
Um....
2502
01:39:03,804 --> 01:39:04,737
[both laugh]
2503
01:39:04,739 --> 01:39:07,006
I don't know, if we found a
good analogy for that

2504
01:39:07,008 --> 01:39:08,274
experience, I'd be impressed.
2505
01:39:08,609 --> 01:39:10,510
Um, it sort of a...
2506
01:39:10,911 --> 01:39:12,078
I get to be Johnny Depp.
2507
01:39:12,813 --> 01:39:13,947
Alright.
2508
01:39:13,949 --> 01:39:15,148
Who are you?
2509
01:39:15,716 --> 01:39:16,783
- I don't know.
- Who else was in that movie?
2510
01:39:16,785 --> 01:39:19,118
You know, I had something I
really wanted to say.
2511
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:20,486
I just fucked that all up.
2512
01:39:20,488 --> 01:39:23,756
No, but ....I don't even know
if it was important.
2513
01:39:26,026 --> 01:39:28,227
If I'd known what it was
actually gonna take
2514
01:39:28,229 --> 01:39:30,229
to solve those problems back
then, I probably
2515
01:39:30,231 --> 01:39:31,197
never would have done it.
2516
01:39:31,732 --> 01:39:33,066
It took, it took that naivet,
2517
01:39:33,068 --> 01:39:34,834
that maybe these were

problems we were capable

2518
01:39:34,836 --> 01:39:35,835
of solving at that time.
2519
01:39:35,837 --> 01:39:37,937
To even, even you know,
2520
01:39:37,939 --> 01:39:39,472
get up in the morning
and go to work.
2521
01:39:39,673 --> 01:39:44,877
You're born into the world
thinking that you are uh,
2522
01:39:44,879 --> 01:39:46,346
you know, you're entering an
industry that people
2523
01:39:46,348 --> 01:39:48,481
understand. Or you're
entering a world
2524
01:39:48,483 --> 01:39:49,882
that's been seen before.
2525
01:39:50,951 --> 01:39:53,186
And seldom do you,
2526
01:39:53,188 --> 01:39:56,389
do you, do you sort of wake up
to the realization
2527
01:39:56,391 --> 01:40:00,360
that you're, you're the uh, um
2528
01:40:00,362 --> 01:40:02,595
that you're the, the explorer.
2529
01:40:02,597 --> 01:40:03,696
In most cases you assume
2530
01:40:03,698 --> 01:40:05,965
that um, there is some history.
2531

01:40:06,400 --> 01:40:09,002

To what you're doing and that
uh, especially when
2532
01:40:09,004 --> 01:40:12,739
When you're that age, and you,
and you find yourself
2533
01:40:12,741 --> 01:40:15,942
in an, in an, in a new
industry that's new to you
2534
01:40:15,944 --> 01:40:17,510
you assume there must be
someone out there,
2535
01:40:17,512 --> 01:40:18,344
who has the answers.
2536
01:40:18,645 --> 01:40:19,846
And then you wake up and realize
2537
01:40:19,848 --> 01:40:22,281
the answers are being written.
2538
01:40:23,183 --> 01:40:24,417
You know you, you are
the precedent.
2539
01:40:24,551 --> 01:40:26,953
[music]
2540
01:40:29,824 --> 01:40:34,027
the idea itself is out there.
People understand it,
2541
01:40:34,029 --> 01:40:37,363
people enjoy it. And so to me,
I mean that was
2542
01:40:37,365 --> 01:40:40,466
absolutely worth all of the, the
trouble along the way.
2543
01:40:40,468 --> 01:40:44,437
I think um, you know I think
the technology itself

2544
01:40:44,439 --> 01:40:46,939
is pretty powerful and
people have shown that
they love it.
2545
01:40:46,941 --> 01:40:50,977
And so um, I think you know, it
will always exist.
2546
01:40:50,979 --> 01:40:53,212
Regardless of how it evolves
or how it changes.