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Wandering Phrases
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These Kind of Problems

By PHILIP B. CORBETT

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The Preface
After Deadline examines questions of grammar, usage and sty le encountered by writers and editors of The Times. It is adapted from a weekly newsroom critique overseen by Philip B. Corbett, the associate managing editor for standards, who is also in charge of The Timess sty le manual.
FAQs on Style

After Deadline examines questions of grammar, usage and style encountered by writers and editors of The Times. It is adapted from a weekly newsroom critique overseen by Philip B. Corbett, the deputy news editor who is also in charge of The Timess style manual. The goal is not to chastise, but to point out recurring problems and suggest solutions. Since many writers wrestle with similar troubles, we think these observations might interest general readers, too.

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Phrases to Watch, Part 1 The Timess stylebook warns us to be careful about singular and plural in phrases with the words kind or sort. We should say this kind of error or these kinds of errors, but never these kind of errors. The plural demonstrative these (or those) cant modify the singular kind. This is not a new problem; few grammatical problems are. But this Times piece from 1916 suggests just how long, and how ineffectually, style arbiters have been inveighing against this particular misstep (see the third item). Its been nearly a century, and we still havent mastered it. Consider these relatively recent examples: But those sort of judgments will be fundamental to any successful health care reform effort.
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When Spell-Check Cant Help Our latest roundup of homophone problems includes a number of very familiar entries. Sharp-ey ed readers catch them; we should, too. Parallel Problems The Timess sty lebook entry on the either/or construction seems simple. But we stumble often. The Stranger in the Lead When in doubt, start with an anecdote. Generations of journalists in search of a fresh, engaging way to start a story have done it. Introduce a person by name, often someone unknown to y our reader. Recount a brief (or not-so-brief) anecdote. Sprinkle in a few telling details. And then, at last, explain why this stranger is a perfect example of a larger phenomenon in other words, get to the point. Tangled Passages Complex sentences, with one or more subordinate clauses, often entangle writer and editor in an ungrammatical snarl. Relative clauses introduced by the
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It is precisely these kind of regulations, involving such matters as the length of a persons work history or reason for leaving a job, that the federal government is trying to get the states to change. Compton, 28, knows all about those kind of nerves, having experienced them firsthand many times.

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Instead of eliciting these kind of quotations from Ms. Thomas, Ms. Kennedy lets Jon Stewart do some of the work for her.

Phrases to Watch, Part 2 Another reminder from the stylebook: help (v.). Use the construction help wondering, as in He cannot help wondering. Not He cannot help but wonder. The cannot help but [blank] construction, despite its logical flaws, has become extremely common in conversational use. But it irks many readers and has a colloquial flavor; we should stick to the more precise cannot help [blank]ing. Some recent slips: Still, as comfortable as the Lakers are in the standings, they cannot help but look at the Eastern Conference, where the Cleveland Cavaliers are protecting the best record in the league. As a dedicated consumer myself, I cant help but think that the increased competition promised by this proposal will offer me more choices The Bernie Madoffs of the world not just the Ponzi schemer himself but the rogue accountants, lawyers and hedge funders walk meekly into federal courts with their rictus faces and ashen complexions and the expectation of long prison sentences, and a bystander cant help but wonder: Why not take the ill-gotten money and run?
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Relative clauses introduced by the relative pronouns who, whom, that and which seem to give us particular trouble, but piling up clauses of any variety increases the risk of a misstep. Sometimes the best approach is not merely to bandage the grammatical wound but to recast or simplify the sentence.

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Getting Names Wrong The most fundamental task of journalism is to get the facts right. Peoples names are among the most basic and important facts we report. And y et y ou know where this is going, because weve been over this ground many times before.

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You Are Not Alone My colleague Adam Bryant from Business Day noted a device that has been popping up frequently. He writes: If, in recent months, you have used a so-and-so is not alone transition from an anecdotal opening to a summary paragraph, then hmm, how best to say this? you are not alone. The phrase, which can sound a bit like a b-movie plot device (cue the organ music), is making semiregular appearances in our pages. There are any number of fresher and faster alternatives for pivoting into the broadening paragraph.

Readers Struggle Amid Prepositions And Cass Peterson, another editor from Business Day, offered this observation, on an overused word that has figured in previous After Deadline installments: The preposition amid is getting quite a workout as the glue holding two parts of a thought together. Theres often a more precise alternative. Some examples: Mr. Dudley, 56, takes over at a time when the economic is struggling amid a recession that started more than a year ago.

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Through would have substituted nicely. The two New Jersey-based companies, which announced significant job cuts last fall, have been striving to become more efficient amid setbacks to their cholesterol drugs Vytorin and Zetia, whose combined quarterly sales slumped 26 percent. Maybe to counter? The main driver of Australias economy a boom in mining has fizzled amid the global economic downturn. A simple in would suffice. And in many cases these days, phrases like amid the economic slowdown/downturn/recession/crisis are entirely superfluous.
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Times Topics, After Deadline, Grammar

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FROM AFTER DEADLINE

When Spell-Check Cant Help The Stranger in the Lead Tangled Passages Getting Names Wrong Bright Passages

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Slow Connections

From 1 to 25 of 105 Comments

1 2 3 5 Next 1. April 14, 2009 10:55 am Link

Anyone have any comments on amid v. amidst, and the similar pair among and amongst? I am inclined to treat admidst and amongst as British and replace them with amid and among in American prose. But perhaps I am missing a fine distinction Marvin Waschke

2.

April 14, 2009 10:57 am Link

Another irksome phrase that I have seen recently is in hope(s) that ___. Do you think this is too colloquial for print or can it be used correctly? C. Ryan

3.

April 14, 2009 10:59 am Link

Ive noticed that many columnists will use have proved. As I recall from my many years of grammar lessons, shouldnt it be have proven I prove, I proved, I have proven? Its been annoying me as much as between you and I terry

4.

April 14, 2009 11:03 am

Help me out here Any number is a number. Not are a number

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Ken Rodd

5.

April 14, 2009 11:04 am Link

I keep seeing one of the only.. in your pages. Someone needs to do something about that. Rod Nelson

6.

April 14, 2009 11:08 am Link

As to your third point, so-and-so is not alone, could I point out how cliched the whole anecdotal opening method of constructing an article has become? Its really tedious, and induces all sorts of doubts. Is the reporter developing a hypothesis from a single case, and then selecting others to demonstrate a biassed generalization? Do some of the details in that opening story detract from the bottom line? Hard-hearted Malthusians might withhold some sympathy from families with a gazillion children, and look more to birth control than to expanding WIC programs to ameliorate the problem, for instance. Two million displaced persons without water and sewage really says much more than the story of one family living in a shack, sad as it may be, for another. I think you should discourage the form. es

7.

April 14, 2009 11:10 am Link

Oh, now I cant help but think I am not alone amid a plethora of writers who dont struggle with these kind of problems? (That was fun!) Septua Jenn

8.

April 14, 2009 11:15 am Link

Two distasteful usages: 1. I conic. I wish some iconoclast would rid the media of this overused (and typically improperly used) word. 2. Shouldnt it be try to . . . not try and . . . ? David F

9.

April 14, 2009 11:20 am Link

Will you please take up the word use in this column? Why do we say, I used to read the news every day or I am used to being an early riser or Didnt you use to play the piano? I no longer read the news every day is straightforward, but substituting used seems to me confusing language. Is anyone else troubled by this? And, if we are to use it in those examples, when do we say use and when used? Thanks for your attention, and I hope you can help me out. laura laura

10. April 14, 2009 11:33 am Link

We should say this kind of error or these kinds of errors, but never these kind of errors. The plural demonstrative these (or those) cant modify the singular kind. Yes, but this begs a more challenging question: Aside from the demonstrative, do kind and sort need to agree (in number) with the noun they modify? I think not kind of error and kinds of error both seem correct (but with slightly different meanings). Furthermore, to my ear, neither kind of errors nor

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kinds of errors is quite grammatical. Also try breed of dogs and breeds of dogs (both incorrect?), as compared with breed of dog and breeds of dog. Steven Shaber

11. April 14, 2009 11:51 am Link

What was the finding on take a meeting, as opposed to have or call a meeting? This Los Angeles formulation driives me crazy. Jacknyc

12. April 14, 2009 11:51 am Link

#3 Terry. End quotes always go outside the period. There are no exceptions. (Unless you are British. They do it the other way.) For those interested, the reason for this rule was developed by typesetters. When the period is outside the quote mark, it is this little thing sitting by itself and often broke off during the printing process. By putting it inside the quote mark, the period is protected by the more substantial quotemark. Same rule applies to commas. Arnie Diamond, PhD

13. April 14, 2009 11:55 am Link

I loathe off of Why say I got off of the couch when one could simply say I got off the couch? Additionally, the word presently means soon. It does NOT mean currently! Ally

14. April 14, 2009 11:58 am Link

We shouldnt forget the oft confused between and amongst (or among, if you prefer). The former is to be used only when two entities are involved, the latter when more than two. This error has been around for centuries and is made by otherwise erudite people -it exists even in the U.S Constitution. ARMARM

15. April 14, 2009 12:00 pm Link

Historically, the word kind was the same in the singular and plural, much like the words deer or sheep. Instances of kind as a plural form go back to Shakespeare, and probably earlier. Thus, the phrase these kind may actually be considered more traditional than these kinds. That being said, I would err on the side of caution and use the plural marker when possible, since there are those nit-pickers out there who are unaware of the larger context behind these grammar debates and I dont want to have to give a history lesson every time it comes up. As for between you and I, it bugs me as well, but that phrase also has precedent in Shakespeare, interestingly enough: All debts are cleard between you and I (Merchant of Venice, Act III, scene ii, line 319) English was relatively flexible about case, prepositions, etc., until scholars forced Latin rules upon it in the late Renaissance. This flexibility still survives in the common usage. Jeff R.

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16. April 14, 2009 12:02 pm Link

On another word, why does the Times insist that the word none is plural? Why do I read: None of them are, instead of none of them is? None = not one. Plain Jane

17. April 14, 2009 12:16 pm Link

I read that workers were layed off at the local steel plant. Later, the workers that were laid off were interviewed by the local TV station. Considering that layed off is more closed related to layoff or lay off and that laid is the correct past tense of lay but does not connote having been fired from work, which term is correct/preferred? How about some suggestions? Thanks. DavidNevada

18. April 14, 2009 12:27 pm Link

The those kind(s)/sort(s) problem, yes, is one of singular/plural agreement but it also may mask confused thinking. The writer may have failed to consider whether he is actually referring to singular or multiple kinds, i.e., classes, of things. The careful writer will think about that, and choose this kind or those kinds to fit the meaning. In the examples you gave: 1. But those sort of judgments will be fundamental Those sorts is probably what the writer meant. The context seems to imply that different or varied kinds of judgments not multiple examples of a single kind of judgment will be required. 2. It is precisely these kind of regulations, involving such matters as the length of a persons work history or reason for leaving a job Hard to tell, but these kinds is probably what the writer meant. That is, the writer may have intended to express that regulations about work history and regulations about leaving a job are distinct kinds of regulations. 3. Compton, 28, knows all about those kind of nerves, having experienced them firsthand many times. Probably that kind was intended. The writer is seemingly referring to occurrences of nerves. Im assuming, by the way, the colloquial meaning of nerves to mean a condition of nervousness singular, like measles. 4. Instead of eliciting these kind of quotations from Ms. Thomas, Ms. Kennedy lets Jon Stewart do some of the work for her. Hard to say, but Im guessing that kind was intended. The context seems to be that a single kind of quotation embarrassing, self-revealing, or whatever is meant. KevinM

19. April 14, 2009 12:28 pm Link

What about An error of this kind or errors of this kind? It seems clearer and sounds better to me, although I cant work out why. Verity Peterson

20. April 14, 2009 12:31 pm Link

Off topic, but epidemic I very often hear people adding an extra is in certain constructions the thing is, is . . . the problem is, is . . . Has anyone else noticed? Whats with this?

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21. April 14, 2009 12:31 pm Link

If you want to talk about errors, go ahead and talk about errors. If you want to talk about kinds, then talk about kinds. But there is no reason that the grammatical number of kinds has to correspond with the number of errors. Typically, when we say these kinds of errors, we mean only one kind, but several errors. We should say, errors of this kind, so that errors can be plural and kind can be singular. Dave Bradley

22. April 14, 2009 12:38 pm Link

The linked 1916 article about these kind of things says the fault is a sturdy one and promises long to survive the animosity of logicians. Take heed of these prophetic words! I find it amusing to see a style editor inveighing against such long-time, ingrained usage. Yes, I find it annoying too, but only because I was taught so in school (as I was also taught a non-existent distinction between between and among). Had I been taught that it is simply a specialized construction, similar to the meaningless difference in possessives between nouns and pronouns, I would see it for that. I think the style editor has more important things to address. Edward Reid

23. April 14, 2009 12:41 pm Link

TV news stories with anecdotal openings are quite annoying to me. You can be sure that any story about consumer news will start off with a persons name: Jane Jones 2 year old son Peter died tragically in car accident because of a defective car seat. According to the Consumer Product Safety Commission 2 million injuries a year that could have been prevented The same is true for personal finance news: Harry Smith thought that he had saved enough money in his 401(k) account to retire comfortably. But because of the stock market crash the 62 year old Smith, like so many other seniors, now plans to work until he dies Check it out next time you watch a network news show. They always lead with a real persons name. Andrew

24. April 14, 2009 12:44 pm Link

What ever happened to editorial review before these errors appear in the Times? Too labor intensive? Perhaps you should recruit some volunteers from the literate readers who post here. Tom Farrelly

25. April 14, 2009 12:46 pm Link

I agree with Steven Shaber. The construction, kinds of regulations, for example, is semantically inferior to kinds of regulation. Using the singular instead of the plural indicates, correctly, that there is some one thing (the genus) that admits of variations (the species). Eric Walker

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