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STUDY GUIDE AND INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT TO ACCOMPANY VIDEO TAPE PSYCHOTHERAPY WITH THE EXPERTS FEATURING ERNEST ROSSI

Jon Carlson Diane Kjos Governors State University University Park, IL

MIND-BODY THERAPY with Ernest Rossi Introduction


This video is one in a series portraying the leading theories of psychotherapy and their application. This series presents the predominant theories and how they are practiced. Each video in the series features a leading practitioner and educator in the field of counseling or psychotherapy. The series is unique in that it features real clients with real problems. During the course of the series these clients bring up a number of issues with the therapists. A theory is a framework that helps us understand something or explains how something works. Just as there are many different people and personalities, there are different theories of understanding how people live and how change occurs, each with its own guidelines for understanding and procedures for operation. The primary differences between these theories are related to the relative importance each theory places on cognitive (thinking), behavioral (doing), and affective (feeling) factors. Each theory has devotees who think and act as the theory prescribes in order to help people change their lives. Certain theories explain certain phenomena better than others. The individual counselor or psychotherapist needs to develop his or her own approach to helping others with problems of an emotional, behavioral, or cognitive nature. Specific objectives in therapy include (1) removing, modifying, or retarding existing symptoms, (2) mediating disturbed patterns of behavior, and (3) promoting positive personality growth and development. The video begins with a brief discussion with the practitioner concerning the theory. We then move to the actual counseling session. After the session, 1

Rossi discusses the session with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and an audience made up of counselors, graduate students, and counselor educators. Because the video series contains actual counseling interviews, professional integrity is required to protect the confidentiality of the clients who have courageously shared their personal lives with us.

Purpose
The series is designed for pre-professional training in graduate and undergraduate classes in counseling theory. Students will learn about the theory and watch a leading practitioner work with a client in a first session interview. The series is also appropriate for workshops or individual study for the professional development of practicing counselors, social workers, clinical psychologists, or psychotherapists. Professionals will learn from the practitioner by gaining new ideas and insights which can be helpful in working with current or future clients.

How to Use the Video


1. As a stand alone activity for professional development or orientation to Mind-Body Therapy. If you are using the video this way, it might be helpful to first read about Existential-Humanistic Therapy. See page 35 of this guide for a list of suggested readings. Or, you may wish to watch the video, read about the theory and then watch the video a second time. As you watch the video, note the questions included on the enclosed test. This will help you identify key points related to this theory. If you wish continuing education credit, complete the test and submit it as directed. 2. As an integral part of a course in counseling theory with the textbook,

student study guide and instructors guide. The text by Jon Carlson and Diane 2

Kjos (1998), Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon with accompanying Study Guide to Counseling and Psychotherapy, and Instructors Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, published by Allyn & Bacon of Needham Heights, Massachusetts, are coordinated with the video tapes and can assist in guiding the student through the learning process, including key concepts, application, and techniques. 3. As an adjunct in classes to demonstrate a practical application of Mind-

Body Therapy or to demonstrate specific interventions and techniques. Guidelines and suggested discussion topics will be included in Carlson and Kjos (1998), Instructors Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon.. 4. As a basis for a series of class sections or a workshop for either

professional development or counselor education. You may choose to use all or parts of the video to support specific teaching objectives. Suggestions for scheduling, discussion questions and other activities will be included in Carlson and Kjos (1998), Instructors Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon.

Mind-Body Therapy with Ernest Rossi


Rossi hold a Ph.D. from Temple University in Philadelphia and a Diplomat in Clinical Psychology from the American Board of Examiners in Professional Psychology. He is a member of the International Association for Analytical Psychology. In addition to his work in psychology and psychotherapy, Rossi is also a biologist and mathematician. He hold membership in the Mathematical Association of America and serves as an adjunct professor of biology, Baylor University, Waco, Texas.

Rossi travels throughout the world giving lectures, demonstrations and workshops. He finds that he is spending more of his time teaching professional than in his own private practice.

Learning Objectives 1. 2. Identify theoretical concepts which are descriptive of Mind-Body Therapy. Recognize specific interventions or techniques related to Mind-Body Therapy. 3. Describe the range of applications of Mind-Body Therapy.

Abstract of Mind-Body Therapy Video This video is approximately 107 minutes long and is divided into three parts: Part I: Introduction of the theory with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and Ernest Rossi (21 minutes). Part II: An initial therapy session with Ernest Rossi and Robin (43 minutes), a white female, where the presenting issue is Robins need to please people. Part III: Discussion of the therapy session (43 minutes) with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, Ernest Rossi, and a panel of counselors, counselor educators, and graduate students.

Transcript
TH 1 Okay, Robin. I guess we are on. Do you want to say anything about what you hope we can accomplish here today? CL 1 Um, I guess maybe just get to know you a little bit. TH 2 Alright. CL 2 And, um, something that you might have that you could share with me that 4

might help in . . . TH 3 About my background. CL 3 Yes. TH 4 Well, its very mixed and rich. I was originally trained as a psychotherapist and psychoanalyst. First I was a Freudian analyst, then I became a Jungian analyst, and I studied how to become a hypnotherapist with a very famous hypnotherapist, and Ive written a lot of books in the past twenty, twenty-five years in the area of dreams, psychotherapy, hypnosis. Also mind body work. I am very much interested in how mind and body communicate and stuff like that. CL 4 Ooh, thats some really, thats some good stuff though. Do you, do you think there is a lot of importance in dreams? TH 5 Oh yes. My very first book was about dreams. CL 5 Was about dreams? TH 6 Do you recall your dreams easily? CL 6 Sometimes I can. You know, sometimes I have dreams that I dont like, [Uhm] and I dont know if they are like telling me that something is going to happen or you know Ive had some, some strange dreams. TH 7 Really? CL 7 Like if I look back on them like I might be at a weird place, like I might be at the Sears Tower, and I might have visited the Sears Tower maybe a month prior but it got put in [Yes] and Im with somebody else that I dont have a clue who 5

Im with, [Yeah] and just strange, strange situations. TH 8 Yeah, dreams are like that. They bring parts of our life, and usually there is something new, and thats what makes them interesting because often its the growing edge of our personality. Do you want to say more about that dream, or is there another dream you would like to share? CL 8 Well, why is it that we remember some dreams and dont remember other dreams. Like, I can say boy I had a really good dream last night, [Yeah] but I just cant remember what it was. [Yeah] Is that to do with the levels of . . . TH 9 Yeah, it has to do with your level of sleep, but you know its really a mystery. There are a lot of theories, a lot of different opinions. Im of the theory that in dreams its like an experimental theater. We are rehearsing or we are looking exploring possibilities for our life, and its just precisely those things that seem strange or bizarre or unusual. CL 9 Thats the interesting thing. TH 10 So if you have any strange or unusual dreams, those would be the ones that . . . CL 10 Im trying to think. [Um] My husband has more strange ones than I do to be quite honest. Oh, but I, I, I have had dreams in the past where like Im [Uhm] by myself, [Um] and its like I dont know anybody around me. [Um] Im trying to think, and I sometimes feel isolated. Im like calling out to somebody and cant find them, [Yeah] and they are nowhere to be found. [Yeah] I dont like those kind 6

of dreams. TH 11 Right. Obviously its like some part of you feels isolated, [Mhm] and you are trying to make connections, but youre not. CL 11 No, its hard. TH 12 Can you see this as the story of your life in any way? Any sense . . . CL 12 If I had to relate live, that I dont like to be, Im not a loner. I dont like to be a loner. I like to be, Ive been tested diagnosed whatever, as like a people pleaser person. [Umh] And I would say maybe [Yeah] that might be why those dreams are [Yeah] scary to me. TH 13 Yeah, its like dreams are usually trying to solve a problem, but sometimes we get stuck in the middle, like this dream is presenting the problem to you Robin in some way. You want to make contact, but you are alone among strangers. Now, what would be a nice way for that dream to continue? Suppose you . . . CL 13 Well, if I could make it continue, I would run into somebody that would [UmHm] say, you know, here I am, here I am. Id be calling out to somebody, and they would find me, [Umh] and they would be like, okay, then we can continue on the path together, [Right, yes.] whatever. Wherever that might take us, you know. TH 14 Why dont you go with that right now [Uhmh] and see where you take that path together, you and your new found friend. CL 14 Um, I guess Id just be searching the unknown. [Uhmh] If [Um um] I could take somebody with me, I, you know I wouldnt, Id have somebody there for 7

support . . . TH 15 To help you face the unknown. CL 15 Whatever might come, you know. TH 16 Yes, thats right. So really thats what you are looking for, ideal friends, partners, to give you the support for the unknown. What is, whatever. CL 16 The unknown. TH 17 Yeah, what would the unknown of your life be? CL 17 Oh, it could be just waking up tomorrow morning because [Um] I have a two and a half year old, and its like I can wake up and something new happens. [Yes] Like, Im a very organized person, [Um] and anything and everything could happen. [Yes] My whole day could be totally changed. TH 18 Thats your life with a two year old. I raised a couple of kids myself, so I really know. CL 18 So, its like, you know, it could change. And I could get phone calls because Im real involved in things. I might say today Im staying home. Im not going to do anything. And then I get a phone call, it, like, and Im like okay Ill go. And then Ill run errands all day and things like that. So it changes from day to day. So its like [Yeah] the unknown, I never say never anymore. TH 19 Right. Unexpected. CL 19 Like, because I usually eat those words. Im not going to do this, no Im not, and then I end up doing it. 8

TH 20 Yeah. In other words there is a part of you that wants a little shelter, a little time for yourself, but you are involved with people, and theres a lot of demands on you. Youve got your own child to take care of and people are continually pulling on you for stuff. [Mhm] And that could be using up a lot of your energy that maybe you really want to keep inside for your own development for what you really need. CL 20 Mhm, yeah, I probably, I guess when I get down and feel like Im completely empty, its because Im drained and I havent taken some time for myself. TH 21 Exactly. CL 21 Yeah, yeah. TH 22 Exactly. Very, very important we take that time for ourselves. As a matter of fact, thats just what one of my books is about. That the idea is that every hour and a half we go through a natural mind body cycle. For the first part of the hour and a half the mind has energy, the body has energy. It wants to go out there. It wants to do something, and then you do something, and then other hormones flow, and you need a quiet time, twenty minute break so to speak. So, its like if this happens continuously throughout the day, every couple of hours you have a chance to do a nice unit of work and be with your child to do the shopping or do the cooking, but then you really need to take that time to take a break because thats when the body heals itself. [Mhm] So this could be, Im just giving you 9

ammunition so you can say no when you really need to. CL 22 Yeah, well I would think that, I mean I can understand that because when my son takes his nap, that is like my time. [Right] I have to take that time for myself because if I dont, [Yes] I mean if I do do work fine, Im doing work. [Yes] Its something that I want to do. TH 23 Thats right. CL 23 But I make the decision if Im going to or if Im not because . . . TH 24 Fantastic. Thats the best. Yes. CL 24 It gets hard. TH 25 Yes, you have to be tough because the outside world will just use you up. [Mhm] And youve been so put upon by a lot of people [Hm] that you tend to get used up that way. [Mhm] And the ideal circumstance like now you are learning how to say no appropriately [Mhm] and how to take time for yourself, thats going to give you extra reserve, time for things to be created within yourself. Do you have any idea, Robin, like where you are headed five, ten years. What would your whole system like to do. What would you like to be five, ten years. In other words what are you shooting for when you . . . CL 25 I, you know, I cant see five, ten years down the road. [Yeah] I mean I come up with ideas, you know, things that I would like to do. Like I like to work with crafts. [Mhm] I mean I could go back to work. [Mhm] I was real successful in the banking industry, uh . . . 10

TH 26 Banking industry, really? CL 26 Yeah, I, I enjoyed that a lot. Did that for ten years. [I see] And its like okay there are options available to me, but after I had my son, all of a sudden my mind changed there and said okay. This is my first priority. [Right] This is what I want to do, [Absolutely] and everything else then will revolve around that. [Yes] So, who knows. Like if he does well in school, [Yeah] I might be able to go back to work. [I see] If he doesnt, I might be real involved taking care of him and making sure he gets the proper education and stuff. [Yeah] TH 27 Are you married? CL 27 Yes. My husband, hes not real good at giving that good support. Actually, hes in the doghouse right now. TH 28 Oh, thats the problem. CL 28 Well, I mean hes supportive in the fact of me staying at home, but far as he happens to be one of those people that likes to take from me too and not give anything back sometimes. TH 29 Oh, I see. [Yeah] Wow, I wish he were here now. CL 29 And hes glad hes not. TH 30 Oh, he knows whats up here maybe. CL 30 Oh yeah. No, but it makes it difficult, but its sort of like if I can take myself out of the day to day and think about what the actual long term goal is, [Yes] that it makes it a little bit easier. [Yes] But sometimes that day to day I can get really 11

overwhelmed. TH 31 Yeah, with a two year old child youve really got your hands full. But even if its only that when he goes down to take a nap, there is some time for you, [Mhm] and I think you are wise. You do have to just wonder how is life going to unfold. CL 31 Yeah, yeah, because we try to make plans as a family where do we want to be, you know, far as say socially, economically, what are our goals. What do we want to do? TH 32 You talk about these things with your husband, okay. CL 32 Mhm. TH 33 And how is that going? CL 33 Well, its one of those things. He doesnt, you know, far as he is concerned all he wants to be is debt free, and soon as he is debt free then everything else is fine. So I know he is worried about financial ends where [I see] as long as I am taking care of Cameron thats not a problem, [Right] and as far as some of the other things like getting stuff done around the house, hes like oh it will get done when we get to it. [Yeah] You know, hes a procrastinator with things like that. [Yah] Where I want things done and want them done on a specific timetable. TH 34 But hes worried about debt. Do you have unusual debts or is this just paying off your mortgage or . . . CL 34 No, he, well, all we really have is our mortgage, but, he, his parents when 12

they were younger did have financial problems and then got themselves completely out of debt themselves, and now you know . . . TH 35 Hes got that same philosophy. CL 35 Hes got that same philosophy, hes got to get himself, you know. I mean some economists say this is a goal you should attain. TH 36 There is some virtue in it. But still there is life to be lived. CL 36 Its just a fact of life. You know, like you want to enjoy life now. You cant wait until you are, you know, so . . . TH 37 Yeah. CL 37 But, we struggle with that. But I think everybody does. You have one thats a saver and one thats a spender, and you need to compromise. TH 38 I see. Hes the saver, and youre the spender. Is that . . . CL 38 Well, yes and no. TH 39 Its not really a fair way to divide it up. CL 39 No. Well, it depends on what type, what type, it is. You know, like Im very conservative [Mhm] and make sure that I get my moneys worth, [Yeah] but I dont hesitate spending a dollar if Im going to get a dollars worth. TH 40 If its needed for your real life at this time. CL 40 Yeah. TH 41 Whereas hes a little bit more conservative that way I suppose. CL 41 Yeah, unless its like for a bass boat or something. Then he would be like, 13

"Oh, but we need this. Its important." Those male toys that he needs. TH 42 Right, thats just what I was curious about. Are you able to find areas where you want to spend your money, do you see eye to eye in the way you have fun together, the way you . . . CL 42 Um, we have differences there. [Mhm] Far as like, his idea of fun and my idea of fun are like totally, like I like the arts. I would like to go to a theater, to a play, where he would prefer to go to a ball game. TH 43 Yeah, classic stereotype. CL 43 Oh yeah. TH 44 Oh wow. CL 44 Id call him like an old jock or something, you know. [Yeah] He likes all that but doesnt get into any of the things that I do. So there has to be an appreciation on both, so. TH 45 Right, thats the secret. CL 45 Hes learning. But . . . TH 46 You can open up new areas for him, [Mhm] and you say hes learning. What areas have you got his interest in. CL 46 Um, what have we done? Well, weve gone to, well no Ive done that by myself. I was going to say we did this, but no I did that myself. Um, concerts. He, he doesnt necessarily always like the kind of music I like to listen to, [Mhm] but he will go with me to a concert or something like that. We are at a different stage 14

in our marriage. Were really I want to say almost struggling right now because I think we need to have some couple time together [Yes] where he thinks that you know we wanted children so therefore we should spend all our time with our son and not take that time for each other. [I see] So Im trying to work on that right now. TH 47 Right. Some good quality time together as a couple. [Mhm] Apart from the child being with you. CL 47 Mhm, I see other mothers doing it and how much fun its been for them, [Yeah] and it makes [Uhuh] them enjoy their children more. TH 48 Of course. CL 48 Then [Yeah] you appreciate your husband too. TH 49 Yeah. I sense you are a deeply romantic kind of a person. CL 49 Yeah. TH 50 Very, [Yeah] very important. CL 50 Yeah, not important at all for him. TH 51 Uh oh. Too much take me out to the ball game with this guy. CL 51 Well, actually, I, I, I can make that a really fun time. I mean, we have gone . . . TH 52 Going to the ball game, mhm, that can be okay, mhm. Its trying to find some of your quality time where he comes into your ballpark. I think this is the very important crux because if your life is going to continue happily together, 15

[Theres got to be] it is going to be very important that he learn to share with you [Mhm] and grow just as you have shared his life. CL 52 Yeah. Ive had different people give different advice about either a) going and buying the tickets to a show and say okay Ive arranged the babysitter, were going and a discussion, you know, heres the tickets. But I just dont, and then I thought you know, what if it backfires on me and I am sitting here and Im thinking, well, I can take somebody else that would enjoy it, [Yeah] and Id still enjoy the theater myself you know, but um . . . TH 53 Its something. CL 53 I guess the thing that I have the hardest time with is I cant make him do something I want him to do. The only person I can change is me. TH 54 Yeah, mhm, yah, mhm, thats true. CL 54 But, ah . . . TH 55 So youve received a certain amount of advice on how to handle it, an external kind of way, buying tickets and so forth. [Mhm] I would like to take, since youve already gone that route and its left something to be desired, I would like to explore another route where you are interested in arts, you are interested in creativity, I would like to help that side of you develop today. [Okay] Would that be okay? CL 55 Yeah. TH 56 I call it doing inner work. [Mhm] In other words youve got to focus inside. 16

I would like to have you, right at this moment, just tune into this whole issue with your husband. [Mhm] How youd really like it to be, and you know a lot of this is private by the way. You only share with me whats appropriate to be shared publicly, but a lot of this work takes place privately within you, and I would like to see you really get a, go on an inner journey so to speak. Whats your husbands name? CL 56 Ed. TH 57 Ed. Okay. What would be an ideal situation for you and Ed to be together, and I dont want you to talk to me about it. I want you just to tune into yourself for a couple of minutes and see where your mind takes you. Lets see if a new fantasy is created, a new idea, a new possibility. Or is it maybe something youve had in mind for some time? CL 57 You mean take, go to a place that I would want to go? TH 58 Yeah. Go to that ideal situation with Ed. Just you and Ed romantically together, and just allow that to develop within you. Thats right. Really going with that. CL 58 Hm, you talk about the impossible. It could happen, but it would take a lot of work, take a lot of work. TH 59 But you found a nice . . . is it something new or is it something that you daydreamed about before? CL 59 Um, probably yeah. Ive day dreamed about it before. 17

TH 60 Okay, but I heard you use the word impossible. It seems like it would be impossible? CL 60 Mhm. TH 61 Okay. So obviously its going to take a little preparation somehow for that to happen. CL 61 Mhm. TH 62 Would you be willing to go back inside again, and what would be the circumstances that could possibly lead to this nice outcome? CL 62 It would have to be a lot of me doing a lot of the work and me being patient when Ed said well I dont really want to do that, and basically stroking him to agree to do something like that. And I have a problem with that because sometimes when he puts up a front, instead of trying to look at it in a positive and keep stroking him, its like . . . TH 63 Youve had too much of this. Youve been doing too much stroking of other people. CL 63 Uhuh, and its like I can let loose with him and then it gets nowhere. TH 64 Yeah, it gets to be hard work. Okay. So it seems like on the outside there is something thats stuck in the relationship. Youve tried, and Im sure he is trying in his way. So we have to go to another level. Are you a spiritual person? CL 64 Mhm. Very much. TH 65 Very much so? Okay. Thats where Id like to have you take another inner 18

journey and commune with your spirit in whatever way that happens, and lets see . . . CL 65 Well, see then you hit the nail right on the head, because thats one thing that I go back to the scripture which says nothing is impossible with God, and so I shouldnt be sitting here saying its impossible. Ed will never change. Thats not true. [Yeah] I know that thats not true. [Yah] If I have enough faith, if I believe enough, it will happen, [Mhm] but its sort of like the phrase weve coined is it will happen in Gods time. Well, its sort of like God is moving awful slow right now. [laughter] TH 66 Yes, too slow. CL 66 Just not, [Yah] but it does make it difficult at times. But I know that its not impossible, but it takes a lot of prayer, dedication on my part, and steadfastness. TH 67 I want to explore something a little bit different. I would like to have you commune with your spirit in a way thats . . . youve tried prayer, youve tried strong faith. [Mhm] Somehow another way of relating to your spirit. Going to your inner spirit just with what you just told me right now and say look, in Gods time or is it possible now. Come on spirit, you are supposed to be so great. What can you tell me? Why dont you take a little journey with that. Lets see if anything new develops. CL 67 Still go back, not that its new, but that I have to be patient. That I have to be understanding. 19

TH 68 Yeah, those are very good conventional virtues. But, uh, something more intriguing, something more interesting. Let me ask you this. Were you one of those kinds of kids that was fascinated with fairy tales when you were a kid? What fascinated you when you were a kid? What was intriguing? CL 68 Um, well, I loved math, mathematics. TH 69 Really? Mathematics? Wow. CL 69 Analytical thinking. The process . . . TH 70 I see. Thats probably how you got into banking. Fantastic. CL 70 So, I analyze things. TH 71 You like to analyze things. [Mhm, mhm] Are you using that talent in any way in your current life? CL 71 Oh, I do a lot. Like this is the situation Im in. What are my options. What are ways that I can do things to make it better, or get things accomplished. You know. [Yeah] I do use it a lot. [Yeah] But sometimes I do think in my spiritual life and things like that, that can hinder you sometimes, because you are not letting God work, [Mhm] in other words, you are trying to analyze God, [Yeah] and you cant do that. TH 72 Thats like two different universes. They dont always mix. CL 72 Sure. But I do analyze a lot. [Yeah] I can analyze this to death, and I guess thats the thing that bothers me the most is that I can talk about it until I am blue in the face, but I am not getting anything accomplished if I keep talking about it. 20

[Yes.] It takes action. TH 73 Right. Action and imagination. CL 73 Imagination is very low on my ability or skills. TH 74 Okay. Then, maybe thats how I can best help you if I help you find the access to your imagination, the intuitive, because youve obviously got a very bright analytical mind. Youve obviously got a wonderful spiritual connection. Youve got all the human virtues of patience and all this, but you finally found the developmental point you need to evolve with your imagination. Would you like to explore some new conventional approaches? CL 74 Sure. TH 75 Place your hands about like so. CL 75 Okay. TH 76 Thats right. And now, Robin, look at your hands almost as if youve never seen them before, and tune into your hands with a certain amount of sensitivity, and in a moment or two, just share with me a sentence or two of what you are actually experiencing in your hands. The same or different or what. CL 76 Im bad. See, I cant . . . theres a warmth that its picking up from, from the lights. [Yeah?] They can feel the warmth. TH 77 Good. Go with that warmth. Lets say like if the warmth is a messenger coming from your body, I wonder where that warmth is going to lead you next? Remember, this is an exercise in sensitivity and just letting your imagination go. 21

CL 77 Well, it causes the hand to almost tingle. TH 78 Tingle? Yes, thats good. Thats even more intriguing. Go with that tingling now. CL 78 Its like you know how the, um, the blood flows through, mhm, and goes back out, and its like you can, you can, feel that. You can sense. And its intriguing sometimes to know that you know, you have four fingers and a thumb and . . . TH 79 Yeah, go with those intriguing things. CL 79 That they are important. They all serve a function. [Yes] You take it for granted. TH 80 Yeah, sometimes you take it too much for granted. CL 80 Yeah, because I sometimes see people with a missing finger and you know theyve had to learn things differently to be able to function, so, um theres . . . um, theres . . . TH 81 Mhm, stay with your hands for a little while yet, and again, well, I am asking you to tune in with great sensitivity. You felt warmth, you felt tingling. Mhm, I wonder if any other experiences or sensations, feelings . . . CL 81 Well, being like this it can almost by looking at them they can become stiff. TH 82 Yeah, go with that. Explore that stiffness. CL 82 Because you have to be able, you know, just holding them like this theres a stiffness, and its like they want to have a tendency to want to curl in. 22

TH 83 Good, let them curl in, thats it. You can make a fist. Now go with that. You have a fist now. Go with that fist. CL 83 It uses energy. It, it stretches them. TH 84 Yes, express that energy, Robin. Nice fists. Really enjoy that for a moment, lets see where it leads you to next. CL 84 It gives you, but it gives you release when you hold it nice and tight. TH 85 Yeah. Hold it nice and tight and let that tightness take you someplace now, holding it nice and tight. CL 85 Its like you cant let go. TH 86 Good, stay with that. You cant let go. And youre really going with that, something you cant let go of. CL 86 I cant let go, I cant let go of control. TH 87 You cant let go of control. Okay go with that now. You cant let go of control. CL 87 I like to be in control. TH 88 Yeah, yeah. Continue with that. This is like a metaphor, the story of your life. You like to be in control, and go with it now. I dont know if your mind wants to take you to where you learned that or what you need to control or just what. CL 88 Well its a sign of frustration. Its a sign of you know the tightness is a sign in, of anger. Um, it creates pain. TH 89 Yes. Really receiving that, anger, pain, frustration. Let yourself experience 23

all those things for a moment and then where they take you next. CL 89 They want release. TH 90 Yeah, they want release. CL 90 I mean I dug the nails into the side of my hand. TH 91 Yeah, I noticed theyre actually red. CL 91 So, sometimes I have a tendency to do that with my teeth. I clench my teeth. TH 92 Grit your teeth. But so it feels good to stop so to speak. They want release. [Mhm] Okay tune into yourself now, Robin, and lets let yourself experience to what extent, are you still feeling release, and if so going with that release? CL 92 Well, its like it wants release, and my hands can make it do it, but I dont know that I can make it do that. TH 93 Thats right. You dont know how yet, but something in your hands is guiding you. That tension, the fists. See you can clench and you cant let it go. CL 93 Yeah, but, uh, its letting go of control. I dont like to do that. TH 94 Oh. Thats why were creating a safe little therapy situation. Its like a little experimental theater where you can explore control and letting go. [Mhm] Thats kind of an exercise we are starting to create. So yeah, its a continued effort to get that tight control and then when you get it really tight hold as tight as you can for a moment or two, and then let yourself fully experience what its like to release actually. 24

CL 94 All the pressure is gone. [Mhm] Almost feels like a let down. TH 95 Really. Yeah, go with that. A let down, lets see what that . . . CL 95 The pressure was all there, and it built up, and then as soon as you release its all gone. Its like for nothing, you know, so . . . TH 96 You might have been building up pressure you mean? CL 96 Yes. You build up to a point where you are like this and then you explode, [Yeah] and then you are left with nothing. TH 97 Yeah, unfortunately. CL 97 Thats where I get to. TH 98 Yeah, okay, so this is the point where you need to learn something new. You feel that, see that tension is like an energy coming up in your system. It wants to do something creative. It wants to break out of the box youre into and wants you to break out of your frustrations, but then the energy is used up, and it doesnt get channeled into anything. Thats the point where Id really like to be able to help you. CL 98 Okay. TH 99 Because in everyday life youve learned this habit of just the tension building up and then nothing happens. How are we going to channel this energy into a creative process thats really one of your talents whether its the mathematics or art. So I would like to have you just go with that. Go with it in yourself, this energy that builds up. 25

CL 99 Its just letting go of some of that control. Not letting it build up. TH 100 Okay let yourself experience what its like to let go of control, not let it build up so much, and just let yourself really explore and really feel in your body whats that like. Is it a good feeling, or is it a scary feeling, or what? CL 100 Its a good feeling. TH 101 Good, now go with that good feeling, Robin. This is what we are looking for. CL 101 Because its a calmness, and if I stay in tune with that, then it keeps the energy level on an even keel. In other words, it doesnt get too tense, but I can hold a fist to have the energy without holding it tight. TH 102 Building up your energy. CL 102 And then that way its free to release, but there doesnt feel like there is a big let down. TH 103 Yes, you let the energy build up, and its free now to explore, and you mentioned that it felt good. Id like to have you enjoy that good feeling for a couple of minutes right now Robin. Really, if there is anything you deserve Robin, if anyone deserves to feel good, certainly you do, and you know that. Youve done so much for so many people. Now its time for you to really appreciate . . . CL 103 The quietness is what I enjoy. The stillness. TH 104 Let yourself experience that. The quietness, the stillness. Yes. CL 104 The things that . . . 26

TH 105 So your needs, you deeply crave need quietness in this hurly burly two year old kid and all these people calling you and stuff. So you really, its nurturing. Its, can be, healing for you to have that quiet. CL 105 Quiet, mhm. TH 106 Okay, stay with the quietness for another moment or two, and just wondering, is it really going to be possible to have a even deeper appreciation of the quietness? Find some ways of bringing it into your life? CL 106 The only way I see bringing it in is setting that time. TH 107 When your childs asleep. Thats one very good time. CL 107 But, I guess maybe I think more of like a morning, or being able to even I guess, I talked about this before. People can sometimes day dream in the middle of everything going around. [Yes] I cant. TH 108 You cant. CL 108 But I think that would be wonderful if I could just take myself away for a little while. You know, just a . . . TH 109 Again, its like the outside world grabs you, [Mhm] so you really need some quietness and some retreat to be able to enjoy the inner peace [Mhm] and inner creative imagination [Mhm] and stuff. Yeah. Thats, and its out of this that the new idea is going to come, the new feelings can come, the transformations are going to happen. Like you said yourself you know you can only change yourself. Of course its only partially true. I think you might be hooked on the idea that you 27

are supposed to direct those changes. You know you are a very bright woman, [Mhm] and you have been properly brought up, and so you have a certain ideology, a certain belief of how you should make yourself change. I want to explode that myth, and I want, I want to explore the idea that there is something thats growing in you autonomously all by itself. [Mhm] I think thats whats happening in some of these dreams. Even when they are a little bit frightening to you. Something wants to happen, but you dont, youre not used to doing this. You are used to being hypnotized by the outside world. So you dont know what to do with the new that is spontaneously being generated in you. So I wonder if there is another way in which we can help create that? Are you willing to explore another path of inner work? [Mhm] Because I just got a cue, by the way. We only have ten minutes left. CL 109 Okay. TH 110 But lets use it [Okay] to the best. CL 110 Okay. TH 111 Place your hands up like this, this time, Robin. And again tune in with great sensitivity, and you know the human body really does have a magnetic field. Whether you are experiencing, whether you can experience that or whether this is a metaphor, I dont know. CL 111 No, mhm. TH 112 You can experience that magnetic field in some way? 28

CL 112 Its wanting to draw its hands together. TH 113 Okay. Allow it to draw the hands together. So you are allowing it, but you are not directing it. You are not controlling it. Youre just learning how to let your inner nature do something it wants to do. Thats it. Nice and slowly. And as those hands continue coming more and more together, Im going to ask your deep inner nature if its going to be okay for the next five minutes to simply, thats right, experience allowing something to happen to you from within, and you watch it, and you nurture it. You help it. Thats it. And allowing your hands to remain there for a moment, and if its going to be okay, Robin, to take another step and begin to explore some possibilities for how youre going to continue this kind of learning, allowing yourself to receive your dreams, your intuition, your imagination. If thats going to be okay. Will one of those hands, just one now, Robin, drifting down more or less by itself, just a signal yes. Its really going to be okay. Take some time for yourself. Thats right, and in that time youre going to take for yourself, youre going to be sensitive, youre going to be receptive to any feelings, any images. CL 113 It still is connected. In other words, um, its still, Im still me. TH 114 Oh yes. Youre always still you. Yes. CL 114 But Im allowing, I havent lost the inner me, but I am allowing other things to come in. TH 115 Yes. Did you say you lost the inner me? CL 115 No, I havent lost it. 29

TH 116 You havent lost it, but you are allowing new things to grow in your inner garden so to speak. Stay with it now. CL 116 Because it stays connected. TH 117 Yes. Oh yeah. You are always aware of yourself. Youre just opening up you might say a new little garden plot, a new little addition to the garden of your soul so to speak. And you wonder what kind of flowers will come up here, or will they be veggies, or what. CL 117 Its really like saying that if I dont change, its still going to be okay. In other words, if I dont become the person that makes Ed necessarily happy, its going to be okay because I am going to be the person that I am going to be. TH 118 Yes, thats right. And this is a way of allowing yourself to become a person in a way thats going to surprise even you rather than you directing and trying to control yourself. Because if you are trying to control yourself, you are just following an ideology, something you learned ten years ago from childhood, that if there is going to be a chance to break through this kind of a stalemate you and your husband. Something truly new has to be created, and we know thats happening in you as I said every hour and a half or two, we know at night we dream every hour and a half, so that cycle continues. And most people have the wrong idea about psychotherapy. They think that the therapist is supposed to be an expert thats going to tell them what to do. I mean, youve had a lot of experiences on this level. But Im not presuming to know what youve got to do. I go exactly 30

where you brought me today. You said Oh, thats where I am missing something. Imagination. And suddenly it became very clear. Exactly. Mhm. Here we have an extremely intelligent woman. You know from the outside it looks like you have a nice marriage, nice child, mortgage. What else do you want? Its that inner garden, your imagination, your creativity that wants evolution, [events] and out of that is going to come a change in your manner without you even knowing it. [Uhm] Your husband is going to pick up in some way that he doesnt even know, and he is going to be curious about it. And its that curiosity that is going to light the flame so to speak, [Uhm] that can bring you closer together. [Okay] So, its anything you can tell him to do, and further its not anything you can tell yourself to do, but rather with these exercises that I am trying to help you open up a space where you can welcome. Where is the new, where is the creative? How is that going to come in, and it usually comes in with your dreams, with your fantasies, [Uhm] with little exercises like, would that be a nice thing for you to do by the way? CL 118 Yes. TH 119 Occasionally you notice . . . CL 119 Sit there and think about that. TH 120 Today your fists are tight, and maybe tomorrow they are not, but, you know, allow that body language. In other words you are learning how to let your body speak to you because you know the right hand doesnt often know what the left hand is doing and so on and so forth. So you are getting your deeper nature as 31

well as a deeper evolving spirit nature come to you. So you need an open garden so to speak or create some new plants. [Mhm] Any of this new to you? CL 120 Its all new to me. TH 121 Okay, very good. Thats what I hoped, to be able to bring something really new. [Yeah] Your life frankly has gotten in a stale box so to speak. [Mhm] But you are obviously a creative person. So now youve got to create, take the time out, steal time so you can do this if you want to create within. Have you ever kept a dream journal? CL 121 Hmn. TH 122 I would start doing that. And over, usually you dont know what a dream means, but next month you look back and you say oh, thats what my dream meant. And who knows, sometimes you might even see in the dream where your soul is going or what you are struggling with. So it becomes like a little record, and you dont have to try to analyze it. CL 122 Right. TH 123 But over time it will be obvious. CL 123 Yes. TH 124 If you have to try to sit down and figure it out, you know, its just an intellectual game. But, over time you notice a series of dreams they all have this theme that becomes obvious to you. In other words, this is like a mathematics of the fantasy of the inner mind. You really got a mathematical equation, you have to 32

write them out. So long as you dont write them out, they can rattle around in your head forever, and they never go to a conclusion. By writing this stuff out you are going to get over this frustration. You feel the energy build up. That energy built up is your health, its your creativity, but it doesnt know where to go. We have to create a field for it to go. Your dreams, fantasies, these private moments, times of your life. So this is a secret place, and, you know, you dont necessarily share this with your husband, unless its appropriate, you know. So what else can I do for you today? CL 124 That gives me a lot to think about. TH 125 Okay. See if I were continuing to see you, this is exactly where we would set it. Okay between now and the next time I see you again lets see what happens with this. So you come in next time, and I see what youve done, and we talk about it. [Mhm] So that gradually you become more and more of an expert in your own mind body, how your own fantasy works, where your soul really is going. You find yourself getting resistant even to your husband and your child as well as yourself. [Mhm] So this is like a growth process just starting. Do you think you will actually continue it, even though we are not going to meet again? CL 125 Mhm, especially the dream journal. TH 126 Yeah, and theres a lot of books out there that are going to try to tell you how to interpret them. Take it all with a grain of salt. You dont have to work hard. The meanings will come over time. So long as you are faithful in writing, 33

even during the daytime. If you have a fantasy that flips through your mind, write it down. You dont know what it means. It seems silly, but over time the text, just like reading a mathematical equation written by Oiler years ago, the meaning will come to you intuitively in a flash. And then you know its real stuff rather than just artificial gobbledegook. CL 126 Okay, that sounds interesting. TH 127 Alright

Treatment Plan for Robin


In the next session with Robin, Rossi would ask if her efforts to explore her dreams, fantasies or inner work had been satisfying. If not, he would recommend that she participate in some group sessions of a very special sort. He believes that Robin could progress much more rapidly in getting the idea of inner work in a social learning setting. In these sessions, he would lead this group through a series of processes such as those he presents in his book, The Symptom Path to Enlightenment: The New Dynamics of Hypnotherapeutic Work (1996), and let members of the group discuss their inner experiences. This would help Robin learn how creative people function. Rossi believes that creative introspective selfcentered behavior has probably not ever been a part of Robins past experiences and thus she needs to learn how creative people experience their inner world before she can find the courage to do it for herself. 34

To Learn More About Mind-Body Therapy


BOOKS Lloyd, D. & Rossi, E. (1992). Ultradian Rhythms in Life Processes: An Inquiry into Fundamental Principles of Chronobiology and Psychobiology. New York: Springer-Verlag. Rossi, E., & Cheek, D. (1988). Mind-Body Therapy: Ideodynamic Healing in Hypnosis. New York: W. W. Norton. Rossi, E., & Ryan, M. (Eds.) (1990). The Lectures, Seminars, and Workshops of Milton H. Erickson. Vol. IV. Creative Choice in Hypnosis. New York: Irvington. Rossi, E. & Nimmons, D. (1991). The Twenty-Minute Break: The Ultradian Healing Response. Los Angeles: Jeremy Tarcher. Rossi, E. (1986, 1993 Second Edition). The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing: New Concepts of Therapeutic Hypnosis. New York: W. W. Norton. Rossi, E. (1996). The Symptom Path to Enlightenment: The New Dynamics of Hypnotherapeutic Work. Pacific Palisades, CA: Palisades Gateway Publishing.

VIDEOS Check with The Milton H. Erickson Foundation, Inc., 3606 North 24th Street, Phoenix, Arizona 85016, Voice: 602-956-6196 / Fax: 602-956-0519 for 35

information on video or audio tapes. WEB SITES http://home.earthlink.net/~rossi http://www.erickson-foundation.org/index.htm#top

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