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Genentech Peter transcription Peter: and thats not true, because these guys dont talk to each other.

. You know they told me you have a bunch and you can just keep using them just dont damage them. I said That would be nice to have, but I dont have that. You know? All these things, you know, these guys have to talk to each other, so its the same thing here on this side and realize that these guys are different, and these guys also have to talk to us, you know, they need communication. And people like me coming in on both sides are in kind of a unique situation. So that was kind of a very interesting discussion. Some of the comments I was not very I missed It should have been more standardized(?), I was just, you know, because these guys cope with a lot of straight communication, but I realized when I talked [to them] that these guys were taking things pretty sensitive, also. Stuart: Really? Peter: You know, I was talking about how Genentech is, and I expressed it the way, just the way it is in my view; but the American counterpart could have better packaged this stuff. That there, thats the nicer way of saying it but it kind of irritated some of them. Stuart: Was there a sense that you were suggesting that Genentech in some way was superior? Peter: That could well be. (Chuckles) That could well be. And some of the stuff they accept also, but, you know, its kind of the individual persons living in that kind of context, and these guys work them hard, every person. Its not that they dont have good people or they dont have the science, they dont have that, its the context. Its the culture; its the system that is set up for them. You just feel the frustration among them: I work hard, I need this and other people tell me that its all not really true, its all bad. I worked my butt off for this company. Stuart: Yeah, you were gonna say bullshit and you stopped yourself. Peter: Yes. I want to be more polite. Laughs Peter: I remember a teacher, telling me what I should say and not say Stuart: So, because this group is so cohesive and tight and has existed for as you say sixteen years, its very conceivable that youre coming back with a- I mean, theres a certain organizational myopia that takes place. You know the word, obviously,

myopia, and that is: their world is here. Now youve left their world and youve come back and said your world is not the only way to do things. Peter: Right. Stuart: and in fact, Ive been to the other side, and thats not a very easy message. Peter: Its not a very easy message. Stuart: Its not an easy message even if this group was problematic and troubled and wanting to hear new ideas; its still not easy to hear it conveyed from somebody who used to be a part of that group. It could have been easier had it been somebody who was not part of that group, but there is a certain sense of club membership that you still have.1 Peter: Right. Stuart: and its almost as if you, uh, put your club membership up for Im not sure I wanna be part of the club. I think theres a better club out there. Peter: Right, and the problem is, even if I talk about stuff, they dont know how to do it, because its still so stuck in there the way they were operating and the entire context was still there. They know that they have to do it different. Theyre not getting told how to do it differently. Theyre getting into kind of a depression mode and I cannot do anything and I just wanna- as long as I hold on to it, because it is a good company. They need to kick me out then, but I do what I always did. Because it seems as if nothing has really changed. So, the barriers are still there, its not the collaborative spirit that is Genentech. They have these fences around every and each organization that was so tight. Stuart: Yeah. But Ill tell you what, in listening in these brief few moments, Peter, what I find the most fascinating is: its so easy over here to talk about our previous discussions; I cant believe we do it this way is not efficient, its not productive. In Germany we do it like this. Peter: Absolutely. Stuart: And now, you go over to Germany and you see the benefits of this approach Peter: You know, youre getting at how do you call it- a trenches time(?), sitting between the chairs. You see the benefit. You know, thats why all this time Ive hadthats the second time in my life, because I came from East Germany and went to West Germany and after a few months, the [Berlin] wall came down. So I came back


to East Germany telling the people what they should learn from West Germany and they were pissed at what I [was] telling them. And when I went to West Germany, I was trying to sell them what is good in East Germany and they also didnt like it, you know, because this is a bad system and we dont need that. And its kind of a similar situation here.2 There are certain parts of the organization, which is probably a more efficient and better system, depending on how you define it, but when it comes to creativity; all this entrepreneurial stuff, you know, when you need the creativity. This chaotic system; theres people beating them and, you know, theres no way they can compete. So, how do you get the best from both sides? Stuart: Exactly Peter: Because, you know, I can tell you that this is a database. I compiled my work in Barza(?). And it ought to keep the whole department busy because its on a database. Stuart: Right. Peter: You know, these guys evolved the database over ten to fifteen years, everything is set up, because that constructive way of doing things; everything is available, just one touch of a button. When these guys ask me Here, can I get the data from Rauch and everyones asking me because Im kind of the contact person. I sent an email to one of his friends I have their number can you send me the report its one minute, two minutes to get the PDF and send it to me. It works over here that getting a report, it takes hours to get it. And you know perfectly well what Im talking about, you know. Its the system. Everything is set up; everything is organized. But theres a point at which all this organization has become unproductive. And these guys I got to at first, you know? And when can I get those, you know, I get those and I have to take this now, its not productive its compounding the idea. The funny thing is also, what is most irritating: even the CEO, a swissman (name). Because he lives in Switzerland, they hate Austrians. Funny that the CEO of one of the Swiss companies, anyways, he tells the Barza(?) folks openly when he goes to San Francisco he goes to meeting. He has discussions with folks on all different levels in the kind of way which he never does in Barza(?). In Barza(?), everyone is sitting in the room and they expect him to drive and to lead and to do everything. Stuart: Of course.


Peter: Whereas here its just chatting and everyone is chiming in and everyone has an opinion and you tell these guys and they dont know what to do with it. They have no clue. Stuart: Yeah Peter: Because of the culture component, how can you change culture like that? (snaps fingers) Its not possible. So its kind of a very funny thing, you know? It was very irritating for people, because he felt almost embarrassed about this comment. A few moments ago Genentech was getting everything, there are the good guys not the bad guys and thats kind of how the entire organization is. Its almost like a depression there, and thats also- when I talked, in front of thirty or forty people, which I shouldnt have done, I said I was packaging it a little bit, I thought. Rauch, for me, is still the greatest opportunity in all compared to all the biggest pharma[ceutical], we have everything there: We have the right resources, the right portfolio we just have to make it. And I sense a little bit of negative energy and well never get out of this, you know, getting the opportunity with all those Americans talking in the back and a lot of comments from my American friends You know what, he has not only an accent anymore, you also talk like the americans too. And ok, thats fine, I can live with that. Stuart: So, one of the things that works, really in any cross cultural discussion, coming back to a theme weve talked about before- is to force established commonalities. If we looked in terms of Rauch-Genentech,3 theres a few things that theres no question are common ethics, morals, values. The first one is: for the good of society. People would not be at this company or at Rauch unless they want to give something back. Peter: Right. Stuart: Certainly you want to all economically do well, but you dont go into Pharma[ceuticals] because you want to be rich. You went into pharma because you want to make a difference. Peter: Both companies are people companies. They are very interested in people ensuring a quality of life. Stuart: Exactly. This is why Im involved with you guys. Because theres a very strong sense of human capitol. Peter: Absolutely Stuart: And you can just see the investment that it makes and it wants to make in its people.


Theres no question that its a scientific method that you have to have. We have to look the facts, we have to follow the scientific method to prove our case. Peter: I know. I agree. Stuart: These are all things. So theres several more, but the point is theres a clear commonality. This kind of a discussion, Im gonna show works with if you have a reframe it, the way to reframe it is heres what we have in common. Now, let me tell you about these strange beasts called the Americans, ok? Heres what they do. And the great thing here is to have the first three or four things be stuff that will amaze you. Let me tell you what they do, what these US guys do that, through German eyes, is crazy. What are they doing wrong? They are so what do you want to say? Unorganized? They have no process. You get my gist, these guys are no good at this. But, let me tell you what they are good at: There is this - for all of the lack of process, there is this creativity, [theyre] always looking at new ways, that is remarkable. Now lets say, things we know that here in Germany we are really good at and then lets say [things] we in Germany are not so good at. Now, what does this yield? This yields productivity. Well, Im stating the obvious and you know the rest, but the point is, in terms of following the flow of framing the conversation. Everybody wants to do two things, this is universal: What do we have in common? What do we share as a belief? We say that up front, because the good news is, it almost implies theres a way we can all benefit, because we do have common things. But we have to recognize that we have our differences. It may look nuts and crazy to us, but guess what? What you guys dont see back in Germany is that these what we normally think of as being detriments can actually yield something that we struggle getting to over here. Peter: It makes perfect sense. Stuart: And that becomes a little less alienating, because youre sitting back not saying, these guys do this, this and this so much better than you but, Wow. I really see both sides of the equation and if we can learn to work with our U.S. counterparts, and teach them on how to do more of what we do right, but learn from what theyre doing right, everybody wins. Peter: Sure, absolutely. That would be ideal. Whether we get close to it well see. The funny thing was the dynamics of these discussions I had. You know, I was contacting my former boss and saying, you know, Im in Southwest Germany, do you have interest [in a] chat about the good old days in my original email. Within a week or two I had three days of discussion with different people because everyone wanted to talk to me.4 And the pattern was pretty much the same with all of these guys. It was- they were not interested in what the other has in common, they were interested to see


what was different. Then, when I talked about the things that are different, they [went] pretty quickly in defensive mode, because they wanted to challenge and justify and say no, we do this and that. So they wanted to know what is different because they get that and they know intuitively Genentech was the more successful side. Stuart: This is what Im telling you. I think were telling two sides of the same point, Peter. People do not want to first discuss the commonalities. Peter: Absolutely Stuart: Because thats not whats bothering them. Whats bothering them is the differences. Peter: Right. Stuart: If I wanted to explain to you a problem that I was having with my parents, I may briefly say I love em to death but I would very quickly go into where we are so different. I would never say to you (or normally I would not say), Here is what we share in common because it doesnt give me the chance to get to them. Peter: Right. Stuart: But if I wanted you to really learn and give me feedback on how to improve then that would be it. Bear with me. I guess thats the right preface, I dont mean here, but to frame it say bear with me, I just want to make sure we can at least, up front, agree on the commonalities. Theres a very interesting, calming effect on reframing it based on commonality even when they dont want you to. The reframing is were not as far off as you think. OK? If I sit down with Robin and I say look, I understand where youre coming from, I think we both want the same thing for Lee: We want him to succeed, we want him to be independent. We may feel differently on how to get him there, but lets not forget we have the same mission in mind. Robin might say, Look, I dont need you to tell me that, but its amazing cognitively how once you say that, whether they want to hear it or not, and then you acknowledge, OK, now that Ive said theres a commonality, I understand why you think theyre nuts. But people wont volunteer that. Theyll normally come back and say to you lets discuss commonalities.5 This is the empowering cross-cultural leadership thing that Im telling you. In any discussion, whether somebody expects it or not, as long as you can establish this, it makes going through the others a lot easier. It also does another interesting thing. Especially when youre the member of a tightly knit club of people back in Germany, or at Rauch or in Switzerland, where they see you as being one of them. Now one of their own is telling them.


So, [looking at] commonality at least says, Look, I still regard and appreciate all the values you have. In fact, what you do by taking this approach is be a member of the club to where it no longer becomes Peter versus them. It becomes first let me establish and re-establish the values and the things that I think are good here, but now let me layer on top of it. Peter: Yeah, but what if they are so deep in their depression that they would even consider that when I say that theres so much value here on the side, they would think it was irony or that I didnt mean what I was saying. So they would not really Stuart: In this depression, though, if you will, they acknowledge that at least theres something that could be better. Peter: Definitely. They do. Stuart: Ok. What would they say they should be doing better? Peter: Ok, well, you know they blame others. They blame the system they dont putthats my unhappiness- because the American system is I can do something. I can do something and let me get going, you know? Ill do this. And [the Germans] are just sitting there waiting for the system to tell them. Thats the problem I have now. Is that they are all sitting there, we have all this money and these guys have to tell me what they want. Stuart: Yes. Peter: Instead of just getting going and saying I can do that. I can go to my boss and to the bosses boss and then tell them oh I want to do that. Just because we have to get going here. Stuart: So, in something you said, I think theres two pieces we need to parse out.6 One is: how do you present to them a reframing, a repackaging of the thing that makes [it not] us or them? The second thing, because thats where we are now, is how do you have an ongoing dialogue with them to manage the situation. And thats what you said, right? They dont know that theres another way, so theyre going to blame the current system. A couple of interesting things. One is, me aside, if the guys over there are working more and more with America, somebodys got to get these guys familiar with the system, right? Peter: Do you want a business trip to Barzo? (Laughter)


Stuart: Yeah. I mean, the reality is that these guys need to understand from an outsider where the pluses and minuses are. That aside, you have no choice but to then do some translation into a defined system that they can handle. Right? I mean, one is you either meet in the middle; you find a common language, or you translate to their language. In either case, there is obviously training involved; for you or for the group or whatever and that is, um, learning how to take- its kind of what we talked about with reading a book. Somebody can do a brute force translation and miss the whole intent and then its no longer compelling reading. How do you take a creative system that works - has its deficiencies, but works- and how do you put that in German terms? [Its] not an easy thing.7