NATIONAL COMMISSION ON

TERRORIST ATTACKS ON THE UNITED STATES

Minutes of the February 24, 2004 Meeting

The Chair called the Commission to order at 9:08 a.m. All Commissioners were in
attendance.

NYT Article on Al Shehhi. The Executive Director discussed that morning's New York
Times story on Marwan al Shehhi. He noted that the story is generally accurate and that it
is truly an ongoing investigation. Commissioner Kerrey asked why the Executive
Director acknowledged knowledge of the story, and he replied that it was important for
the credibility of the Commission to state it was investigating the topic. Commissioner
Kerrey suggested that the Commission not comment on such matters. Commissioner
Roemer stated that it was best for such acknowledgements to come from the Chair.
Commissioner Gorelick said that the Executive Director had acted correctly to preserve
the credibility of the Commission.

Commissioner Ben-Veniste inquired as to who leaked the story, and asked if the leak had
anything to do with Team 1 A's recent visit to Germany. The Executive Director stated
that he did not know the source of the leak, but that he believed it did not come from the
Commission. Senior Counsel Susan Ginsburg provided a snapshot of U.S.-German
cooperation on counterterrorism issues prior to 9-11. Commissioner Gorelick noted a
theme emerging from the German and Kuala Lumpur stories: deference to the field and a
lack of coordination from headquarters.

Minutes. Commissioner Kerrey expressed his displeasure with the appendix detailing the
history of PDB negotiations and inquired as to who had drafted it. The Deputy Executive
Director stated that he had drafted the appendix at the request of the Chair and Vice
Chair. Commissioner Kerrey stated that the White House had broken the agreement—
"wide latitude means wide latitude." He added that he remained in favor of a subpoena.

Commissioner Ben-Veniste asked about recreation of the August 6, 2001, PDB and the
PDB headlines. Commissioner Gorelick stated that it was possible to do so. The
Executive Director stated that the White House would oppose such a recreation, but
agreed with Commissioner Gorelick. Commissioner Ben-Veniste moved that the
Commission recreate the August 6 PDB and the headlines. The Commission |Hd not Deleted: agreed by consensus
make a decision on whether to "recreaf the PDB. but given the information the
Commisison had already received. jCommissioner Gorelick agreed to reconstruct the Deleted:
threat headlines from the spring and summer of 2001Y Deleted: undertake the task.

Commissioners Ben-Veniste, Gorelick, Kerrey, and Roemer stated that they would
submit amendments to the Minutes subsequent to the meeting.

Team One Presentation. Team Leader Doug MacEachin delivered a TS/SCI

presentation on the status of his team's work and investigative findings thus far. Team

COMMISSION SENSITIVE
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members Yoel Tobin, Tom Dowling, Nicole Grandrimo, and Sarah Linden participated in
the presentation.

Team Four Presentation. Team Leader John Roth delivered a SECRET-level

presentation on the status of his team's work and investigative findings thus far. Team
members Doug Greenburg and Serena Wille participated in the presentation.

Security Briefing. Graham Giusti, the Commission's Chief of Security, provided a brief
presentation regarding the security challenges the Commission will face as it nears the
end of its work. He distributed a copy of the February 10 Newsweek article by Michael
Isikoff, and explained that, in his judgment and the judgment of others in the intelligence
community, the information divulged provided a "frame of reference" (subjects,
numbers, and time) and was therefore classified.

The Chair restated his long-held position that leaks could destroy the credibility of the
Commission. Commissioner Ben-Veniste concurred.

Commissioner Gorelick asked what impact, if any, Steve Coil's new book would have on
the Commission's declassification efforts. In a similar vein, Commissioner Ben-Veniste
noted a recent AP story that was likely based upon information leaked from KSM
debriefings. The Vice Chair noted the fact that something has been published doesn't
give the Commission an excuse to discuss it publicly. Giusti replied that the new
disclosures might have practical advantages as the Commission seeks clearance of the
final report, but he agreed with the Vice Chair's assessment.

In regard to the final report, the Executive Director stated that the burden will be on the
executive branch to^xplain why the proposed disclosures could damage national [Deleted: prove
security. Commissioner Lehman observed that executive branch has the sole power to
classify and declassify information. Commissioner Gorelick noted that the Commission
intended to submit a list of categories for declassification that will receive high-level
attention in advance of the pre-publication review process. The Chair concluded that
discussion of these matters would be ongoing.

Access Issues. The Chair reported on two recent conversations with Judge Gonzales.

1. The White House spoke at length with Speaker Hastert regarding the extension.
They conveyed that the Speaker's opposition is sincere, but he's taken the
position that he will not block an extension. Commissioner Roemer expressed his
concern that the Speaker might be reversing his position, but the Chair assured
Commissioner Roemer, based on his conversations with the White House, that the
White House was certain about his position. The White House thinks that the
extension will pass.

The Chair spoke to Senator McCain. McCain both thanked and commended the
Commission on its work thus far. The Senator stated that he would try to attach a
two-month extension to the transportation extension that week.

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 COMMISSION SENSITIVE

2. The Chair reported that the White House had granted its request to allow the
Chair and Vice Chair to review the larger body of PDB items. The Chair and Vice
Chair will implement this agreement.

3. The President agreed to meet with the Chair and Vice Chair for one hour. The
Commission can choose to have a note taker or a stenographer.

The Executive Director reported that the Vice President is willing to meet with the Chair
and Vice Chair, accompanied by one staffer. The OVP prefers that the meeting not give
the appearance of public testimony. They are agreeable to a 90-minute meeting. ..and the [ Deleted; but
Vice President will give more time if necessary.

The Executive Director reported that former President Clinton had agreed to a three-hour
meeting with the Commission at the K Street office. The staff is considering dates toward
the end of March, in close proximity to scheduled Commission meetings. They did not
discuss notetaking restrictions. Neither Clinton nor Gore had rejected a public
appearance.

The staff distributed a letter from Judge Gonzales declining the Commission's request for
the National Security Advisor's public testimony. Commissioner Ben-Veniste suggested
that the Commission consider issuing a subpoena for Dr. Rice's public testimony.
Commissioners Ben-Veniste and Gorelick added that the Commission needs to schedule
a second interview because the first interview predated the full Commission's access to
PDB material. He noted that she had agreed to a second interview during the first session
on February 7.

Commissioner Roemer stated that he was disappointed with Dr. Rice's response. He
found her to be forthcoming and helpful in the interview. He stated that the
Commission's options were to subpoena Dr. Rice or compel her testimony with public
pressure. He added that the prospect of having Dick Clarke speak for the Bush
administration may prompt the White House to reconsider. Commissioner Fielding
agreed that the National Security Advisor would make a terrific witness and that her
absence from the hearing would leave a big hole in the hearing line-up; however, the
Commission cannot force an EOP employee to testify.

The Vice Chair stated that he had made the case to the White House repeatedly on the
issue of Dr. Rice's public appearance. He noted that receiving her public testimony was
important, but it was not critical to achieving the Commission's mandate. Commissioner
Gorelick conceded that the Commission may not elicit an additional fact for the report,
but her appearance was nonetheless very important. The General Counsel stated that the
White House would not comply with a subpoena. He added that the Commission's
outside counsel believes that the Commission's position is not as strong now that it has
received private testimony.

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 COMMISSION SENSITIVE

Commissioner Gorton stated that if the Commission issues a subpoena to the White
House for Dr. Rice's public testimony, the Speaker will bury the extension.
Commissioner Roemer stated that the first course of action was to issue a statement
expressing the Commission's disappointment.

Commissioner Roemer recommended that the Commission issue a statement that:

1) Makes a strong bipartisan statement on the extension.

2) Urges the President and Vice President to meet with the entire Commission.
3) Expresses disappointment regarding Dr. Rice's decision.

The Chair and Vice Chair stated the Commission should focus first on the extension.
Commissioners Gorton and Roemer observed that a_60-day extension was likely to pass
within the next 24-48 hours. A consensus of the Commission supported issuing a
statement along the lines of Commissioner Roemer's recommendation.

Commissioner Ben-Veniste inquired as to the status of dissemination of,PDB information i Deleted: the
to staff; investigation of Moussaoui and al Qaeda links; and follow-up with key foeieted: report j
conspirators.

On the issue of staff access to the PDB report, the Chair expected that the Commission's
request would be viewed favorably. The Executive Director added that the Commission
has already provided the White House with a list of staff names (Marcus, Kojm,
MacEachin, Scheid, and Hurley) and detailed justifications for providing them access.
The Executive Director described staff follow-up on the PDB information on Moussaoui,
and provided a brief report on the process of obtaining information from certain
individuals in USG custody.

The Vice Chair agreed to hold a two-hour meeting with the families.

The Chair adjourned the meeting at approximately 4:15 p.m.

COMMISSION SENSITIVE
 NATIONAL COMMISSIQN_ON
TERRORIST ATTACKS ON THEUNITED Sr
Minutes of the February 24, 2004 Meeting

The Chair called the Commission to order at 9:08 a.m. All Commissioners were in
attendance.

NYT Article on Al Shehhi. The Executive Director discussed that morning's New York
Times story on Marwan al Shehhi. He noted that the story is generally accurate and that it
is truly an ongoing investigation. Commissioner Kerrey asked why the Executive
Director acknowledged knowledge of the story, and he replied that it was important for
the credibility of the Commission to state it was investigating the topic. Commissioner
Kerrey suggested that the Commission not comment on such matters. Commissioner
Roemer stated that it was best for such acknowledgements to come from the Chair.

Commissioner Ben-Veniste inquired as to who leaked the story, and asked if the leak had
anything to do with Team 1 A's recent visit to Germany. The Executive Director stated
that he did not know the source of the leak, but that he believed it did not come from the
Commission. Senior Counsel Susan Ginsburg provided a snapshot of U.S.-German
cooperation on counterterrorism issues prior to 9-11. Commissioner Gorelick noted a
theme emerging from the German and Kuala Lumpur stories: deference to the field and a
lack of coordination from headquarters.

Minutes. Commissioner Kerrey expressed his displeasure with the appendix

history of PDB negotiations and inquired as to who had drafted it. The Deputy Executive
Director stated that he had drafted the appendix at the request of the Chair and Vice
Chair. Commissioner Kerrey stated that the White House had broken the agreement—
"wide latitude means wide latitude." He added that he remained in favorpf a subpoena.
:? 1\L UWf (A/ifl
Commissioner Ben-Veniste asked about recreation of the Augugfo, 2001, PDB and the Ir
PDB headlines. Commissioner Gorelick stated that it was possible to do so. The
Executive Director stated that the White House would oppose such a recreation, but
agreed with Commissioner Gorelick. Commissioner Ben-V eniste moved that thejj^
Commission recreate the August 6 PDB and the headlines., The Commission
sr Commissioner Gorelick agreed to undu tdkiijluuusk.

Commissioners Ben-Veniste, Gorelick, Kerrey, and Roemer stated that they wo

submit amendments to the Minutes subsequent to the meeting.

Team One Presentation. Team Leader Doug MacEachin delivered a TS/SCI

presentation on the status of his team's work and investigative findings thus far. Te
members Yoel Tobin, Tom Dowling, Nicole Grandrimo, and Sarah Linden participatecun
the presentation.

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 COMMISSION SENSITIVE

Team Four Presentation. Team Leader John Roth delivered a SECRET-level

presentation on the status of his team's work and investigative findings thus far. Team
members Doug Greenburg and Serena Wille participated in the presentation.

Security Briefing. Graham Giusti, the Commission's Chief of Security, provided a brief
presentation regarding the security challenges the Commission will face as it nears the
end of its work. He distributed a copy of the February 10 Newsweek article by Michael
Isikoff, and explained that, in his judgment and the judgment of others in the intelligence
community, the information divulged provided a "frame of reference" (subjects,
numbers, and time) and was therefore classified.

The Chair restated his long-held position that leaks could destroy the credibility of the
Commission. Commissioner Ben-Veniste concurred.

Commissioner Gorelick asked what impact, if any, Steve Coil's new book would have on
the Commission's declassification efforts. In a similar vein, Commissioner Ben-Veniste
noted a recent AP story that was likely based upon information leaked from KSM
debriefings. The Vice Chair noted the fact that something has been published doesn't
give the Commission an excuse to discuss it publicly. Giusti replied that the new
disclosures might have practical advantages as the Commission seeks clearance of the
final report, but he agreed with the Vice Chair's assessment.

In regard to the final report, tne ExecBffveDirector stated that the burden will be on the
executive branch to pjWe why the>usclosures could damage national security.
Commissioner Lehman observedtnat executive branch has the sole power to classify and
declassify information. Commissioner Gorelick noted that the Commission intended to
submit a list of categories for declassification that will receive high-level attention in
advance of the pre-publication review process. The Chair concluded that discussion of
these matters would be ongoing.

Access Issues. The Chair reported on two recent conversations with Judge Gonzales.

1 . The White House spoke at length with Speaker Hastert regarding the extension.
They conveyed that the Speaker's opposition is sincere, but he's taken the
position that he will not block an extension. Commissioner Roemer expressed his
concern that the Speaker might be reversing his position, but the Chair assured
Commissioner Roemer, based on his conversations with the White House, that the
White House was certain about his position. The White House thinks that the
extension will pass.

The Chair spoke to Senator McCain. McCain both thanked and commended the
Commission on its work thus far. The Senator stated that he would try to attach a
two-month extension to the transportation extension that week.

COMMISSION SENSITIVE
 COMMISSION SENSITIVE

2. The Chair reported that the White House had granted its request to allow the
Chair and Vice Chair to review the larger body of PDB items. The Chair and Vice
Chair will implement this agreement.

3. The President agreed to meet with the Chair and Vice Chair for one hour. The
Commission can choose to have a note taker or a stenographer.

The Executive Director reported that the Vice President is willing to meet with th/Chair
and Vice Chair, accompanied by one staffer. The OVP prefers that the meeting n*t give
the appearance of public testimony. They are agreeable to a 90-minute meeting, tyxt the
Vice President will give more time if necessary.

The Executive Director reported that former President Clinton had agreed to a three-hour
meeting with the Commission at the K Street office. The staff is considering dates toward
the end of March, in close proximity to scheduled Commission meetings. They did not
discuss notetaking restrictions. Neither Clinton nor Gore had rejected a public
appearance.

The staff distributed a letter from Judge Gonzales declining the Commission's request for
the National Security Advisor's public testimony. Commissioner Ben-Veniste suggested
that the Commission consider issuing a subpoena for Dr. Rice's public testimony.
Commissioners Ben-Veniste and Gorelick added that the Commission needs to schedule
a second interview because the first interview predated the full Commission's access to
PDB material. He noted that she had agreed to a second interview during the first session
on February 7.

Commissioner Roemer stated that he was disappointed with Dr. Rice's response. He
found her to be forthcoming and helpful in the interview. He stated that the
Commission's options were to subpoena Dr. Rice or compel her testimony with public
pressure. He added that the prospect of having Dick Clarke speak for the Bush
administration may prompt the White House to reconsider. Commissioner Fielding
agreed that the National Security Advisor would make a terrific witness and that her
absence from the hearing would leave a big hole in the hearing line-up; however, the
Commission cannot force an EOF employee to testify.

The Vice Chair stated that he had made the case to the White House repeatedly on the
issue of Dr. Rice's public appearance. He noted that receiving her public testimony was
important, but it was not critical to achieving the Commission's mandate. Commissioner
Gorelick conceded that the Commission may not elicit an additional fact for the report,
but her appearance was nonetheless very important. The General Counsel stated that the
White House would not comply with a subpoena. He added that the Commission's
outside counsel believes that the Commission's position is not as strong now that it has
received private testimony.

Commissioner Gorton stated that if the Commission issues a subpoena to the White
House for Dr. Rice's public testimony, the Speaker will bury the extension.

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 COMMISSION SENSITIVE

Commissioner Roemer stated that the first course of action was to issue a statement
expressing the Commission's disappointment.

Commissioner Roemer recommended that the Commission issue a statement that:

1) Makes a strong bipartisan statement on the extension.

2) Urges the President and Vice President to meet with the entire Commission.
3) Expresses disappointment regarding Dr. Rice's decision.

The Chair and Vice Chair stated the Commission should focus first on the extension.
Commissioners Gorton and Roemer observed thay 60-day extension was likely to pass
within the next 24-48 hours. A consensus of the Cbmmission supported issuing a
statement along the lines of Commissioner Roemer's recommendation.

Commissioner Ben-Veniste inquired as to the status of dissemination oftfee^PDB report-*

to staff; investigation of Moussaoui and al Qaeda links; and follow-up with key
conspirators.

On the issue of staff access to the PDB report, the Chair expected that the Commission's
request would be viewed favorably. The Executive Director added that the Commission
has already provided the White House with a list of staff names (Marcus, Kojm,
MacEachin, Scheid, and Hurley) and detailed justifications for providing them access.
The Executive Director described staff follow-up on the PDB information on Moussaoui,
and provided a brief report on the process of obtaining information from certain
individuals in USG custody.

The Vice Chair agreed to hold a two-hour meeting with the families.

The Chair adjourned the meeting at approximately 4:15 p.m.

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