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Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

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medo

medo Colonel

Posts: 1115 Points: 1153 Join date: 2010-10-24


Post n241

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

medo on Mon May 13, 2013 9:09 pm

Two faced array means twice the radar price... it has two radar antennas fitted... twice the power required, twice the processing needed, twice the cooling needed. The payoff is double the update rate for information... but you could have gotten that by replacing the gearing in the motor turning the radar to make it spin twice as fast...

It's not that easy. Range and rotating speed are connected, because radio signal travel with speed of light to the max range and back. Longer range of radar, lower rotating speed. If you increase rotating speed than you have shorter range.

it that case they already have a kinda 3 faced radar there 2 for search and 1 for aiming ,4 faced aesa cant be that much more expencive and would add together with fire&forget missiles (certain percentage at least not all of them i imagine a system could have 4 IIR and 4 active radar and 4 radio-command missiles for different targets) tremendous all-around capability. i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not missiles.

Pantsir is mobile system, not stationary. It depend on its own electrogenerator (APU), which give all energy for all systems inside vehicle. Radars, communications, computers, etc. You have to know few things. The strongest radio signal have radio missile guiding antenna, but it only work in time of missile flight. It have very high energy, that missile got guiding signal to maximum range and that it is stronger than any jammer so it could not be jammed. Second strongest is tracking radar and it only work, when targets are given to launch missiles and when missiles hit target you turn it off. Search radar is not that energy

consumption device and it could work all the time as well as communications, that is why you most easily jam search radar. To place four AESA radars, which work as search and as tracking radars, than you have to have much stronger APU to feed them, but in mobile system you are limited in this case. This new Janus faced radar should have additional small APU inside between two antennas, or reduced energy consumption that the whole radar use as much energy as the older one. You have better situation picture with this radar, but if signal is weaker, than it is a question, how much it is vulnerable to jamming.

-those javelin and eryx you posted didnt explode!!! they just shut down and fall on the ground where can do least damage!!! , i mean for Pantcir it didnt fall to the ground ,it didnt shut down it exploded , this is hot booster coming apart high above the ground level raining hell all around it , hot pieces of burning solid fuel from first stage and shrapnel from second stage explosives also igniting ,would kill instantly anyone and would do much more damage then small rocket motors of eryx or javelin.

As I said earlier, not all missile fails are because of bad production. They could also be because of bad handling before placed on launcher. Maybe some connections inside missile are out and main rocket engine will not work and missile fall on the ground. On the other hand missile could fall on the ground before and than the body of missile could have cracks and when engine ignite, missile explode. There could as well be problem with storing of missiles. If containers are not hermetically closed, than humidity could damage wire connections.

GarryB

GarryB Colonel

Posts: 8305 Points: 8715 Join date: 2010-03-30 Location: New Zealand

Post n242

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

GarryB on Tue May 14, 2013 2:42 pm

-that seadart is old naval missile probably expired ,and there isnt anyone around the ship when its firing ,its standard procedure ,but during war there is a good chance there would be soldiers around Pantcir in the marching column ...

That wasn't a new video... old missiles are a problem the operators have to deal with... Sea Dart failure = serious deck fire, Pantsir-S1 failure firework display 50m in front of the vehicle. There would be no soldiers milling around an operational air defence vehicle... just as there would be no soldiers hanging around the muzzle of a MBT in an operational situation either.

-those javelin and eryx you posted didnt explode!!! they just shut down and fall on the ground where can do least damage!!!

So in every case where the camera man sht themselves and duck for cover they are being silly? You will notice that in the Pantsir-S1 video it was the booster exploding, not the missiles warhead, which is not armed till the missile gets to within 1km of the target. Nothing shut down on those ATGMs... the charge to jettison the missile from the tube fired but the missiles rocket motors failed to accelerate the missiles down range to the target... the warhead will not have armed but those rocket motors could easily start up and send that missile anywhere... nothing like self propelled UXO floating around a convoy... , i mean for Pantcir it didnt fall to the ground ,it didnt shut down it exploded , this is hot booster coming apart high above the ground level raining hell all around it , hot pieces of burning solid fuel from first stage and shrapnel from second stage explosives also igniting ,would kill instantly anyone and would do much more damage then small rocket motors of eryx or javelin.

A very high energy solid rocket motor booster like that fitted to the Pantsir-S1 is very close to the burning rate of explosives, and the fault with the booster in this shot clearly shows the propellent in the booster all burning at once... looking very much like an explosion... but not actually being one in the technical sense. If that booster could kill everyone in 50m radius then why on earth would the military waste their time with HE bombs when solid rocket boosters are so lethal. The simple fact is that they are not... it would be no more lethal than fireworks...ie no high supersonic crushing blast wave, no shrapnel effective to any decent range to be useful as a weapon. The missile payload would not have been armed and would likely have landed largely intact... if dented and scratched. An UXO issue a real convoy in a real combat situation would probably just leave. In an exercise the UXO ordinance personnel would be brought in to deal with it and the exercise suspended till it was sorted.

it seems the missile is turning during boost phase on many videos probably using its canards on the front of second stage ,they seem to be active from the start.

I was referring to hard turns, not small corrections.

it that case they already have a kinda 3 faced radar there 2 for search and 1 for aiming

Searching and tracking are two different functions. The best comparison is with a tank crew... in a modern tank you have three to four crewmen. The driver moves the vehicle as directed by the commander who has a good view of the terrain from high up in the turret. The radar functions in a tank are performed by the gunner and the commander... the gunner has his own sights with powerful magnification and night and all weather capability but can only see about 45 degrees and can only move their sight about 30 degrees either side of where the tank turret is facing. This is not a flaw in the design however as the gunners job is to fire the main and coaxial gun at targets so he does not need to see anywhere he can't or isn't pointing the gun. The commanders job is two fold in terms of radar.. he looks for threats to the tank, and he looks for targets to engage, so he has a 360 degree view and is regularly scanning for threats and targets. Now lets say he spots a group of enemy infantry that are 3km away in a light truck... he will command the gunner to look at the bearing the target is located on at the distance to the target and he might order him to engage with HE, so the commander might rotate the turret to face the target while he looks around for other targets and threats. the gunner lases the target and gets the range, which is converted into a flight time by the computer and loads a HE round with an ANEIT fuse so the shell airbursts directly above the enemy truck and places the aim point directly on the target... the commander suddenly spots a T-60 tank rumbling over a hill... the T-60 is a threat to his tank and firing on the truck will reveal their presence so the commander will order hold fire, new target, new ammo so the new target will then be engaged. On the Pantsir-S1 the two search radar will only search for

new targets and threats... an AH-64 due west firing 2 Hellfire missiles at the Pantsir-S1 would be a much higher priority than most targets that are visible, though in this case the Pantsir-S1 can engage up to 4 targets at once, and can hand data to other vehicles it is operating with, so up to 24 targets can be dealt with at one time by a Pantsir-S1 battery. ,4 faced aesa cant be that much more expencive and would add together with fire&forget missiles (certain percentage at least not all of them i imagine a system could have 4 IIR and 4 active radar and 4 radio-command missiles for different targets) tremendous all-around capability.

Each radar element in an AESA is a radar that can cost hundreds of dollars each. Each array has hundreds or thousands of elements, so having four arrays, each with 1,000 elements with each element costing $200 each... we are talking millions of dollars just for the radar antenna... imagine the processing power needed to handle all that data? AESA are certainly getting cheaper, but the search radar doesn't need to be hugely accurate... it is the tracking radar that needs high precision. As QWIP chips get cheaper then IIR seekers will become more affordable. MMW radar homing seekers are already not hugely expensive. I agree that in some situations having terminally guided missiles would be useful... the HERMES is based on the SA-22 and will have missiles with MMW radar seekers and IIR seekers as well as SALH seekers, so even a stealth target can have a laser pointed at it and SALH missiles fired at it from a number of platforms. Having said that the tracking radar of the Pantsir-S1 seems to be very accurate so command guidance with autotracking is exceptionally cheap and simple so you can buy an enormous number of rockets and actually use them in training... I would say of 12 that 8 being radio command and perhaps 2 MMW radar guided and 2 IIR guided, would allow the instant use of 4 missiles and about 5 seconds later those guidance channels could be reused for radio command guided missiles before the first missiles had hit... so in practise 8 targets engaged at once per vehicle.

More interesting the artwork for the HERMES shows a light truck carrying about 40 missile tubes... imagine two of those operating with a battery to support them in a heavy attack... and besides where would exhaust gases go?

Where do they go on Vikhr-M? It is a single stage missile that is a beam rider... where does the rocket motor go on most ATGMs? Hint... as the fuel burns having a rear mounted rocket motor would move the cg forward with the nose mounted warhead making it too nose heavy and resulting in a nose dive. Many rockets have rocket fuel in the centre of the missile vented sideways and to the rear to propel the missile forward without blocking the view back to the launcher so the gionometer can track the missile. It's not that easy. Range and rotating speed are connected, because radio signal travel with speed of light to the max range and back. Longer range of radar, lower rotating speed. If you increase rotating speed than you have shorter range.

This is very true for large powerful very long range radars that need to keep looking till the signal has had time to go out and come back, but not really relevant for Pantsir-S1. i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not missiles.

The missiles need to be pointed in the general direction... making the missiles turn hard at launch wastes energy that could have been used for speed. On the other hand missile could fall on the ground before and than the body of missile could have cracks and when engine ignite, missile explode.

It might have been incorrectly stored and the solid fuel might have developed internal cracks... a flame wave front moving down a crack in a solid fuel missile can lead to far

too much propellent being ignited at once with a huge spike in pressure that the fuel and missile walls cannot contain... creating an explosion... think of a fuse... if you bundle it up in a tight bundle instead of a single thread of material burning it all burns at once and looks very much like an explosion... i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not missiles.

_________________ 10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin Laden. In his house.

medo

medo Colonel

Posts: 1115 Points: 1153 Join date: 2010-10-24

Post n243

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

medo on Tue May 14, 2013 6:23 pm

This is very true for large powerful very long range radars that need to keep looking till the signal has had time to go out and come back, but not really relevant for Pantsir-S1.

It is relevant for all radars. For example, Roland battery radar (FGR) have range of 60 km and rotate with 50 rpm. Roland fire unit (FRR) search radar have range of 16,5 km and rotate with 60 rpm. Tunguska have similar range and similar rotating speed, while Pantsir with longer range have lower speed.

Rpg type 7v

Rpg type 7v Master Sergeant

Posts: 305 Points: 222 Join date: 2011-05-01


Post n244

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Rpg type 7v on Tue May 14, 2013 7:02 pm

GarryB wrote:

You will notice that in the Pantsir-S1 video it was the booster exploding, not the missiles warhead, which is not armed till the missile gets to within 1km of the target. A very high energy solid rocket motor booster like that fitted to the Pantsir-S1 is very close to the burning rate of explosives, and the fault with the booster in this shot clearly shows the propellent in the booster all burning at once... looking very much like an explosion... but not actually being one in the technical sense. If that booster could kill everyone in 50m radius then why on earth would the military waste their time with HE bombs when solid rocket boosters are so lethal. The simple fact is that they are not... Searching and tracking are two different functions.

Where do they go on Vikhr-M? It is a single stage missile that is a beam rider... where does the rocket motor go on most ATGMs? Hint... as the fuel burns having a rear mounted rocket motor would move the cg forward with the nose mounted warhead making it too nose heavy and resulting in a nose dive. Many rockets have rocket fuel in the centre of the missile vented sideways and to the rear to propel the missile forward without blocking the view back to the launcher so the gionometer can track the missile.

yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first for unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then activates second stage explosives and they detonate too ,yes the

blast- fragmentation explosive warhead. warhead weight is 20kg and the whole second stage is 30kg , besides warhead occupies the central part of the missiles 2/3 of length of it . there is no sustainer nore base base bleed ,and there are no tubes on the side of the missile i think you need to drop it already...

Rpg type 7v

Rpg type 7v Master Sergeant

Posts: 305 Points: 222 Join date: 2011-05-01

Post n245

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Rpg type 7v on Tue May 14, 2013 7:06 pm

GarryB wrote:

Each radar element in an AESA is a radar that can cost hundreds of dollars each. Each array has hundreds or

thousands of elements, so having four arrays, each with 1,000 elements with each element costing $200 each... we are talking millions of dollars just for the radar antenna... imagine the processing power needed to handle all that data? AESA are certainly getting cheaper, but the search radar doesn't need to be hugely accurate... it is the tracking radar that needs high precision.

i dont think you need that this is a short range system requiring detection ranges of 30ish km and aiming power out to 18-20km. that means it would need much less elements then fighter radars of 150-200km detection .i remember zhuk-ae having up to 700 elements for something like 150km track/ this radar could have 200 elements easy on 1 side, *4= 800 elements in total.

medo

medo Colonel

Posts: 1115 Points: 1153 Join date: 2010-10-24

Post n246

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

medo on Tue May 14, 2013 10:18 pm

yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first for unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then activates second stage explosives and they detonate too ,yes the blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.

It was actually exactly what I was explaining. There wasn't two explosions, but booster engine ignition and than explosion, what is actually consequence of cracks in solid rocket fuel. This is actually what happened, when container with missile fall from the hight even in the warehouse or in the time of loading. That is why there are very strict safety roles, when handling with missiles and why missiles, if fall or anything similar, must not go on launcher but in destruction.

GarryB

GarryB Colonel

Posts: 8305 Points: 8715 Join date: 2010-03-30 Location: New Zealand

Post n247

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

GarryB on Wed May 15, 2013 2:11 pm

i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not missiles.

Both the guns and the missiles need to be pointed at the target. yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first for unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then activates second stage explosives and they detonate too ,yes the blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.

Have watched several times... after being blown from the tube the main rocket booster starts to ignite and the whole booster explodes... look at full Pantsir-S1 videos with interceptions of targets and you will see a bright orange flash and black smoke when the real HE warhead explodes... there is no explosion of the HE warhead in this video. ...and nor would one expect their to be, the propellent would not be sufficient to set it off as it is burning rapidly rather than exploding and the fuse of the warhead would not be armed yet. warhead weight is 20kg and the whole second stage is 30kg , besides warhead occupies the central part of the missiles

2/3 of length of it . there is no sustainer nore base base bleed ,and there are no tubes on the side of the missile i think you need to drop it already...

Do you have an official drawing of the SA-22 missile (as opposed to drawings of earlier missiles with much shorter range?) i dont think you need that this is a short range system requiring detection ranges of 30ish km and aiming power out to 18-20km. that means it would need much less elements then fighter radars of 150-200km detection .i remember zhuk-ae having up to 700 elements for something like 150km track/ this radar could have 200 elements easy on 1 side, *4= 800 elements in total.

The elements are fixed and the radar scans by turning elements on and off... the more elements the greater precision of tracking. If you only want 200 elements per face then your accuracy in tracking will be greatly reduced... keep in mind this radar needs to be able to track very very small targets like missiles and bombs and stealthy cruise missiles.

_________________ 10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin Laden. In his house.

Rpg type 7v

Rpg type 7v Master Sergeant

Posts: 305 Points: 222 Join date: 2011-05-01

Post n248

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Rpg type 7v on Wed May 15, 2013 5:24 pm then where did the second stage go? its not seen on any frame after explosion. it had to fly off somewhere if it was in 1 piece. and there are 2 types of debries falling on the ground... aesa that size is good enough for 15-20km ranges like i said. you arent going to aim it 100kms away... even current pesa aiming radar looks alot like kopyo radar from mig-21 upgrade program, even smaller. look at this video at start there is turning using canards during boost phase , and black smoke when the missile explodes>? where is orange? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-dQZgPo_PY

GarryB

GarryB Colonel

Posts: 8305 Points: 8715 Join date: 2010-03-30 Location: New Zealand

Post n249

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

GarryB on Thu May 16, 2013 5:54 am

look at this video at start there is turning using canards during boost phase , and black smoke when the missile explodes>? where is orange?

The video you provide clearly shows a ball of black smoke when the warhead detonates near the target and there is no black smoke in the video of the booster failure. The presence of an orange flash probably depends on the shutter speed of the camera filming and the general light conditions, but with some interceptions... especially the long range interceptions you often see an orange flash and black smoke when the target is intercepted. then where did the second stage go? its not seen on any frame after explosion. it had to fly off somewhere if it was in

1 piece. and there are 2 types of debries falling on the ground...

Looking again at it frame by frame there are three black dots... I suspect the booster blowing up probably exerted an assymetrical force on the missile and broke it into 3 pieces... but the warhead did not explode because there is no black smoke.

_________________ 10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin Laden. In his house.

Rpg type 7v

Rpg type 7v Master Sergeant

Posts: 305 Points: 222 Join date: 2011-05-01

Post n250

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Rpg type 7v on Thu May 16, 2013 7:44 pm those were parts of canards and other electronic blocks in the second stage flying apart ... you can even see fragments from fragmentation warhead bouncing off the ground after explosion -ive seen that before. what happened is that the booster is much bigger and its violent explosion masked the explosives in the second stage going off.

GarryB

GarryB Colonel

Posts: 8305 Points: 8715 Join date: 2010-03-30 Location: New Zealand

Post n251

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

GarryB on Fri May 17, 2013 3:43 am So where is the cloud of black smoke that clearly lingers in the air for several seconds... as shown in the video you posted showing the warhead exploding next to a target? those were parts of canards and other electronic blocks in the second stage flying apart

Lets be clear... there is the booster and the missile stage... those three black dots were pieces of the missile stage. Over several frames those black dots don't change in size so they are not flat surfaces like canards or tail fins that would be spinning in the air as they fell, they are sections. Looking at the dark line that is the missile at launch perspective would mean that the very slim missile will look smaller than the booster and as it moves away as it launches will get smaller and smaller... if it is broken into three pieces what makes you think the warhead exploded? Looking at your video of tethered targets with the missile exploding nearby... where is the missile there? Looking at the cross section of the older missiles most of the missile body is explosive... if it had exploded there would not be three black dots as they would likely have been shattered into tiny pieces like they are when the warhead explodes near the target.

_________________ 10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin Laden. In his house.

Rpg type 7v

Rpg type 7v Master Sergeant

Posts: 305 Points: 222 Join date: 2011-05-01

Post n252

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Rpg type 7v on Fri May 17, 2013 2:54 pm hmm good point there , it seems it did crack and seperate into 3 pieces from the jolt of exploding booster or the shockwave , frontal with canards central with explosive and rear with rear finns infact that part can be seen .they fly into air and away from the view of camera , too bad the video isnt longer with debris collected and post analysis . anyway not that its comforting booster is much bigger then explosive fragmentation warhead and the way pieces bounce of the ground it would be quite deadly to anyone nearby.

Aaand back to radar i dont think a 4 faced pyramidal type aesa wouldnt be that bulky , it would certainly weigh less then rotating passive search radar and aiming radar. I think price has fallen for commercial GaAs transistors now from 2000->1000$ per unit. i think if u have 2-3 times less elements on that plate there would be lots of room between them so you could skip liquid cooling and use air cooled chips making it even lighter.

I found this chart showing momentum of the missile during its flight, its obvious it has just first stage booster unlike Tor system which has 2 stage missile with sustainer rocket motor. Also deceleration of crotale missile shown the drag penalty of larger diameter missile.

Rpg type 7v

Rpg type 7v Master Sergeant

Posts: 305 Points: 222 Join date: 2011-05-01

Post n253

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Rpg type 7v on Fri May 17, 2013 11:32 pm Well it seems i was right all along. And you guys were wrong... After some research i found out that new version- PantsirSM is in development...that should rectify original pantcirs shortcomings... Hmmm i wonder how will it look like? This is latest news. https://vk.com/wall-25189118_80589 http://www.biztass.ru/news/id/69596 http://tula.bezformata.ru/listnews/poluchit-kredit-pochti-na-5mlrd/11523737/

xeno

xeno Private

Posts: 39 Points: 34 Join date: 2013-02-04


Post n254

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

xeno on Fri May 17, 2013 11:51 pm Great news. Pantsir-S1, which is the best system in the world compared with similar types of other countries, willl get even better. Hope the Pantsir-SM project will be a success...

TR1

TR1 Colonel

Posts: 2766 Points: 2965 Join date: 2011-12-07

Post n255

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

TR1 on Sat May 18, 2013 12:29 am

Rpg type 7v wrote:Well it seems i was right all along.

And you guys were wrong... After some research i found out that new versionPantsir-SM is in development...that should rectify original pantcirs shortcomings... Hmmm i wonder how will it look like? This is latest news. https://vk.com/wall-25189118_80589 http://www.biztass.ru/news/id/69596 http://tula.bezformata.ru/listnews/poluchit-kredit-pochtina-5-mlrd/11523737/

You were right because the Pantsir continues to get better? Your logic is terrible.

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