Welding Forum > AS/NZS 1554.

1 2004 revalidation and qualification

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the inspector HI all

Feb 12 2011, 02:59 AM

If you know anything about 1554 ozzy code, you might be able to help my?? First thing when revalidating a welder after 6 months do you MPI UT or RT ? next All out welders are qualified to 2G Butt on 20mm plate, right I have been told that because they are qualified in this they are coved for fillet weld as well 2F?? but you still need a procedure which I have for fillet welds As I keep getting conflicted feed back from other inspector, some say yes and some say no? Can anyone shed some light on this?? I ask this questions as I'm not to speed with 1554 as I've only been over here (oz) 10 months now Thanks

Ballbearing

Feb 12 2011, 03:18 AM

the Inspector, Have your welders not welded with the process for 6 months or more ? If not they require a new qualification which shall be in accordance with Clause 4.12.2. If they are continually welding with the process the qualification never expires - any documentary evidence (NDT Reports, Welding Control Records etc) are sufficient to cover them for a period of 6 months after the date on the relevant document. A 2 G Butt Weld covers the following Flat & Horizontal Butt welds in plate. Flat & Horizontal Fillet welds in plate. Flat Butt weld in pipe (rotated) Horizontal Butt in pipe Flat & Horizontal Fillet welds in pipe. There is a very good Australian forum - www.weldingflash.com.au that has some very knowledgeable people when it comes to the Australian codes, Hope that helps, Cheers, BB

mick

Feb 12 2011, 04:20 AM

Hi mate, 1554 is about as clear as mud! Open for various interpretations by different inspectors. I take it one of your questions is...... Can a butt weld WPS be used for welding fillet welds?

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The welder is qualified to weld fillets as ball bearing stated. However for the WPS, If you look at appendix E in 1554.1 there are various pre-qualified welds. If the WPS is qualified to 1554, then my take on this is, you can only use the joint stated for that particular job. 1554 part 1 states that if there is a change in the angle of preparation out with the essential parameters then it will require re-qualification. So changing from a single V to a T-Joint changes the preparation If youre using a fillet weld WPS, remember a single run only qualifies for a single run and the WPS allows you to only weld to the qualified fillet size and below not the thickness of material. If its a multi run weld then you can weld the qualified size (mutirun) and above. Send a PM to Keel, he might be able to help you further. I hope this helps, Mick

Ballbearing

Feb 12 2011, 06:15 AM

I know what you are saying Mick, Any code that is 106 pages long and has a 100 page commentary (WTIA Tech Note 11) to help understand it is obviously clear as mud, Cheers, BB

Keel Hello Inspector

Feb 16 2011, 07:47 AM

For welder quals 2G covers 1G, 2G, 1F and 2F ( see table 4.12.2) and the other BB mentioned. The thickness qualified is unlimited, this is not mentioned in the code so by omission it is unlimited (this causes some auguments). If the welder quals on any steel covered by the code (I.E. yield strength <500Mpa or table 4.6.1 (B)) it cover all steels covered by the code. BB is also right about the requalification requirements (again this causes a lot of auguments). The initial qualification test is a macro only. If the 6 months is almost up and you have no records for him then a single MPI in 1F requalifies him. Even though the welder is qualed on a 2G procedure which allows him to weld a fillet he must still follow a fillet WPS when welding. This goes against AS 3992 which allows fillets to be welded with a butt procedure, this is what confuses a lot of folk when we move from one code to the other. Keel

Keel

Feb 16 2011, 07:55 AM

There is a very good Australian forum - www.weldingflash.com.au that has some very knowledgeable people when it comes to the Australian codes, Hope that helps, Cheers, BB Thanks for that BB. I think this is the new Australian welding societys website. Keel

Ballbearing

Feb 16 2011, 09:59 AM

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Hi Keel, I think I have told you before that I hate 1554 with a passion but it seems with so much work in Oz and a lot of people coming in from overseas there are a lot more questions being asked / debated about this code. I see your comments regarding unlimited thickness and it led me to do a bit of research. Hypothetically we have a 20 mm plate butt welded. If a welder is qualified to AS 2980 his qualification is T/2 to T x 2 (10 mm to 40 mm) irrespective of what welding procedures the fabricator holds. (He still can only weld to the WPS thicknesses) If a welder is qualified to AS 3992 he is qualfied from 5 mm to unlimited irrespective of what welding procedures the fabricator holds. (He still can only weld to the WPS thicknesses) If a welder is qualified to AS/NZS 1554 Part 1 ( 1 x test / 1 x macro per WPS) and the fabricator has a WPS qualified on 20 mm plate (therefore WPS is qualified 15 mm to 30 mm) then the welder is only qualified for 15-30 mm. Every test / every macro he does on further WPSs can broaden his thickness range but it will always be governed by the fabricators thickness range on his qualified WPSs. This is an excerpt from WTIA Tech Note 11 on using AS 1796, AS 2980, AS 3992 qualifications in lieu of AS/NZS 1554 quals (Clause 4.12.2 (a)) Whilst not specifically mentioned in clause 4.12.2(a), welders with valid qualifications under other national or international Standards are deemed to comply with this clause. In all cases, welders with these qualifications, and those specifically listed in this clause, are deemed to comply only whilst working within the limitations of their original qualification (note especially the limitations within AS 2980). So not sure on the statement that welders are qualified to unlimited thickness. Your thoughts, Cheers, BB

mick

Feb 16 2011, 10:49 AM

Hi BB, I was checking a 1554.1 welder qual today and was checking the spec and low and behold does not metion thickness qualified only positions. So i believe the welder only qualifies them to the thickness range of the WPS! Am i correct? I have a quick question for you Ozzie lads. If you qualify a welder to a specific 1554.1 WPS, does the test piece require to be the thickness of the PQR? I had a heated disscusion with an inspector who stated that you can qualify the welder within the thickness range of the WPS. Your thoughts please! Cheers, Mick P.S. How did you get on during your "holiday" to the UK Keel?

Ballbearing

Feb 16 2011, 12:29 PM

Hi Mick, It should have listed the WPS followed for the weld test on the Welders Qualification Certificate. That welder is only qualified to weld the thickness range listed on that specific WPS. Sorry to say Mick, the other inspector was right. However he is still only qualified to weld to the thickness of the WPS (so the logical thing to do is qualify him to the

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thickness of the PQR as you have stated.) Edit : Looked at it again and the example below may show that you were actually right. Lets take a 20 mm plate for example - WPS is valid 15 -30 mm meaning any welding (including welder quals) can be performed between those thicknesses. So a welder welds a 30 mm plate - based on the .75 to 1.5 x "T" (that a lot of people argue is applicable to welder quals) he would be qualified to weld 22.5 - 45 mm. No can do as he is 15 mm outside the allowable range of the WPS. I think that is where the confusion is and you are actually right. The .75 to 1.5 x "T" is applicable to both WPS and welder quals because itrrespective of what thickness you test on you are still governed by the thickness of the PQR. Hope that helps, Cheers, BB

mick

Feb 16 2011, 12:45 PM

Hi BB, Thanks for the advice, its always good to have discussions on 1554, quite a few inspectors have different opinions which may not be wrong however too many grey areas in the spec and it is always good to ask questions. I always tend to carry out welder quals based on the WPQR thickness as this tends to cut out the confusion at a later date! Cheers, Mick

the inspector

Feb 16 2011, 02:02 PM

Good answer's guys, this has help me a lot we just did a job and the welders had to be qualified to as2980 as well as 1554.1 the inspector which told me that you can not be qualified for a fillet if you only have a Ill have to wait for his report and see what he has to say and Ill let you all know Thanks again keep your thought coming the inspector Keel and BB Thanks for the website did join it the other day and will put the same question on when I have time to sit down and look through it

Keel

Feb 17 2011, 02:47 AM

Aye BB this is one on the many descepencies for 1554. As I said before I believe, and have argued, that by ommission you are qualed unlimited thickness. This is what is taught at TAFE for welding supervisors. But it is only opinion. 1554 says that the welder must also be tested by means of a macro test on all welding procedures required on the job (Cl 4.12.2 (b) ). So this clearly makes a mockery of welders being qualed to the other codes. My own view is that if a welder quals on 15mm plate on a WPS that covers 10mm to 20mm then he is qualed unlimited. However he can only weld to the variables of the WPS in this case 10 to 20 mm. If he then goes and uses a WPS with 50mm thickness then this is ok without requalification. It's obvious by this thread that we all have different interpretations. On some jobs I've disagreed with an inspector and we called in a third as an umpire to decide. BUt even

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then I've had the umpire come up with an entirly different slant to us. Keel

QUOTE (Ballbearing @ Feb 16 2011, 05:59 PM)

Hi Keel, I think I have told you before that I hate 1554 with a passion but it seems with so much work in Oz and a lot of people coming in from overseas there are a lot more questions being asked / debated about this code. I see your comments regarding unlimited thickness and it led me to do a bit of research. Hypothetically we have a 20 mm plate butt welded. If a welder is qualified to AS 2980 his qualification is T/2 to T x 2 (10 mm to 40 mm) irrespective of what welding procedures the fabricator holds. (He still can only weld to the WPS thicknesses) If a welder is qualified to AS 3992 he is qualfied from 5 mm to unlimited irrespective of what welding procedures the fabricator holds. (He still can only weld to the WPS thicknesses) If a welder is qualified to AS/NZS 1554 Part 1 ( 1 x test / 1 x macro per WPS) and the fabricator has a WPS qualified on 20 mm plate (therefore WPS is qualified 15 mm to 30 mm) then the welder is only qualified for 15-30 mm. Every test / every macro he does on further WPSs can broaden his thickness range but it will always be governed by the fabricators thickness range on his qualified WPSs. This is an excerpt from WTIA Tech Note 11 on using AS 1796, AS 2980, AS 3992 qualifications in lieu of AS/NZS 1554 quals (Clause 4.12.2 (a)) Whilst not specifically mentioned in clause 4.12.2(a), welders with valid qualifications under other national or international Standards are deemed to comply with this clause. In all cases, welders with these qualifications, and those specifically listed in this clause, are deemed to comply only whilst working within the limitations of their original qualification (note especially the limitations within AS 2980). So not sure on the statement that welders are qualified to unlimited thickness. Your thoughts, Cheers, BB

Inspector do you want a copy of the WTIA tech note 11? I've got a spare copy if you want one. PM me if you want it. I'm back working in Welshpool at the moment. Keel P.S. How did you get on during your "holiday" to the UK Keel? All good Mick. Still a little jet lagged. When are you home? Are you up for my barbie on Sunday? Keel

Ballbearing

Feb 17 2011, 03:03 AM

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Hi Keel, I am sorry I do not agree with statement below "My own view is that if a welder quals on 15mm plate on a WPS that covers 10mm to 20mm then he is qualed unlimited. However he can only weld to the variables of the WPS in this case 10 to 20 mm. If he then goes and uses a WPS with 50mm thickness then this is ok without requalification" 1554 requires the welder to perform a macro on all welding procedures used on the project. WTIA Tech Note 11 A4.12.2 All welders must qualify for each weld procedure to be used on the job by means of a macro test, If a company requires 4 welding procedures to gain thickness coverage from 3 to 50 mm plate ( 36 mm PQR covers a WPS of 27 mm to unlimited - 20 mm PQR covers a WPS of 15 mm to 30 mm - 10 mm PQR covers a WPS of 7.5 mm to 15 mm - 6 mm PQR covers a WPS of 4.5 mm to 9 mm) then the welder must perform a macro for each of these 4 welding procedures. A radiograph of a full test plate to give an unlimited thickness range (as per AS 3992) cannot be considered the equivalent of doing 1 macro (as per AS/NZS 1554) and obtaining unlimited thickness qualification. A welder could have 95% lack of fusion or penetration in his test plate and yet strike it lucky that the macro was taken in the 5% of good weld area. As Mick said, it is all clear as mud, Cheers, BB

Far Canal

Feb 17 2011, 04:40 AM

It seems these Australian spec's are deliberately vague to keep WTIA in a job? In any case a macro-test for welder quals is pointless and I would argue that they are pointless for WPQT as well (apart from being used for hardness survey). sure glad i'm not working in Oz! regards Far Canal

Keel

Feb 17 2011, 07:02 AM

BB this is the problem, we are totally in disagreement over this. If a welder has to qual on each WPS then why can somebody who is qualed to weld 3992 weld 1554? surelly he will have to have a macro for each procedure. In other words requalify from scratch. This doesn't make sense. Also what's the point of welding 2G for a qual test which allows you to weld 1F,2F when a Butt WPS can't be used for fillets? On the jobs I've been on I have never seen the welder qual to each indivual procedure. Although I've looked at the tech note explanation it doesn't clear everthing up for me. This why 1554 is so hard to use!! Keel

the inspector

Feb 17 2011, 07:37 AM

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thanks lads I'm even more confused know all I need to know is a 20mm 2G butt weld ok for a 6 MM fillet weld dose it cover me?? and and do we have to revalidate the welders ever 6 month or are we coved ?? Keel Ill take you up on that offer the tech note 11 Ill PM you am around on Friday at work till 4:30 so if your there Ill pop and see you??

Ballbearing

Feb 17 2011, 08:24 AM

The Inspector, There are enough conflicting statements on here - just pick which one you like ! No seriously, Keel has answered the fillet question and I have answered the 6 month expiry question. For more on the 6 month expiry, go to the website I posted above and have a look in the 1554 section - there is an ongoing discussion about that subject. Cheers, BB

mick My take on this.

Feb 17 2011, 09:52 AM

A 1554.1 Butt weld WPS only covers butt welds. A 1554.1 Fillet weld WPS only covers fillet welds. According to the code any change in joint configuration out with the requirements requires a new WPS. A fillet weld WPS is based on the size of the weld (leg length) not the thickness of the material, so unlimited material thickness for fillet welds (some common sense is required) however separate WPS's are required for single run and multi run as one does not cover the other! A welder must have some form of welding traceability showing he has been welding to the code every six months...NDT reports are your best bet. Keel.....I am working a four week stint to fill in..and only getting paid for three....thats the life being staff, so will see you a week on Satuarday! Cheers, Mick

the inspector BB you say

Feb 18 2011, 04:23 AM

1554 requires the welder to perform a macro on all welding procedures used on the project. WTIA Tech Note 11 A4.12.2 Dose it say this in 1554?? My conclusion Dose it not say in 1554 table 4.12.2 that if you weld in a butt your also approved for fillet welds? Revalidation still out with the jury with this one have to think about it

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Thanks

mick

Feb 18 2011, 10:07 AM

Hi Inspector, According from what i have learned over the past few years working with this standard apart from, it must be the hardest standard to interpret, is a welder qualified to a butt welding WPS is qualified to weld fillet welds therefore the welder is ok however must use a fillet weld WPS The confusion lies at page 44 clause 4.12.2 1554.1 2004 where it states: " Welders not already qualified for the welding process and position required by the welding procedure under the conditions of employment shall be required to demonstrate an ability to comply with the appropriate requirements of this Standard by means of a macro test for all welding procedures required on the job" My question is.... What the hell does this mean? Cheers, Mick

3.2 Inspector

Feb 18 2011, 11:00 AM

Never have I seen such a piece of garbage written in a standard. So a welding test subject to macro test for each different wps used....hehe 3.2

Keel

Feb 19 2011, 12:37 AM

Aye 3.2 that's what the code says and BB is absolutely correct in his interpretation because it's backed by the commentry provided by the Australian welding institute. However I disagree because of the discrepencies I've pointed out E.G. being covered to weld positions and types of weld not covered by the WPS being tested on. It's as if the committee who wrote the code couldn't agree in the end. And that may be closer to the truth than we think. Keel

Ballbearing

Feb 19 2011, 01:50 PM

Have been working the last 2 years in Thailand on modules to be supplied to Australian mines or construction projects (AWS D1.1). Have absolutely no intention of returning to Australia to work and even less intention of ever using AS/NZS 1554 again in my working career. All I am trying to do is add some advice based on my interpretation of a p.ss poor welding code. Good luck to all of you who are stuck with using it, Regards, BB

Keel

Feb 20 2011, 02:58 PM

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BB I can't remember offhand how many pages D1.1 contains but surpisingly 1554 is based off that code. In Perth about 6 months ago a D1.1 commitee member came over to address the local WTIA members. He brought up some interesting points. He asked where the 2 codes got their figures from when it came to reinforcment, levels of undercut etc. He pointed out that they seemed to be based on for the higher standard 1mm, lesser standard 2mm etc and he asked us where these figures came from. We all thought that through extensive government backed research these figures were arrived at. No he says, no research ever took place. These figures seemingly were plucked from thin air as they needed a base line to start with. And 50 years later we are still using codes that are based on nothing more scientific than a committee set up to give initial guidelines on safe welding practices. After that lecture I've opened my eyes to the limitations of codes (especialy 1554) and try to look at the reasoning behind the codes whilst still trying to adhere as much as possible to them. Keel

boilermaker

Feb 20 2011, 06:48 PM

keel So you have all learned to question the word of god, and found that 50 years of slavish adherence to a code had replaced common sense eh. This should be an object lesson to all who apply codes and rules etc without question.

ningbo

Feb 21 2011, 01:47 PM

Keel, I often wonder about the amount of people in construction who have arrived at your question. Why 2mm max reinforcement or 3.2mm max penetration? They are based on conservative engineering figures to cover a wide aspect of construction. This is arrived from many years of general experience without catstophic failures or scientific backing sheer experience. If you want to do something which is more "safety critical" nowadays then your design engineers must develop a more defined engineering specification for your particular job. No two jobs are the same to put it mildly. This is a point which much agrieves me with followers of US Standards who think if you follow the code book, (the word of god), to the letter then everything will be OK. This principle is completely wrong.Working with design, fabrication and material standards to guarantee that everything fully conforms in the real world does not work that way. To me now, and always, the greatest concern is what we build things with and where they were manufactured not the specifications used. Most welding consumables are made in places that are hard to track and with regard to steel, where is it made and what is the quality?

Ballbearing

Feb 22 2011, 12:12 AM

Keel, Boilermaker, Ningbo, My primary role as a Welding Inspector is to ensure the fabricator is complying with the nominated codes and specifications. A codebook is simply a set of guidelines and as Ningbo has stated it can not and should not replace "Sound Engineering Practice." Codes / standards list the minimum requirements, specifications are written by supposedly knowledgeable design engineers (I do wonder at times) and can stipulate additional mandatory requirements over and above the code / standard requirements. However, if the code has mandatory requirements I / we have no other option than to ensure those requirements are complied with, whether we agree with them or not. The code/standard we are discussing here - AS/NZS 1554 has been a mess for a lot of

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years now and nothing seems to have been done about it. At least the US codes / standards have interpretation committees where you can write in and have clarification given on a contentious issue. The only thing we seem to have with 1554 is people arguing / debating over their interpretation of the code on internet forums. The main problem I see (and I stress this is only my opinion) is that people who have made their own interpretation of a code clause have to steadfastly maintain that stance or they would have to accept the fact that they may have been incorrectly accepting / rejecting items in the past. Codes / standards should be black and white - unfortunately AS/NZS 1554 is grey and that makes it extremely difficult for people who have to use it. Regards, BB

the inspector

Feb 22 2011, 02:30 AM

is not a standard/code written to make things easer as for 1554 I think it make life hard?? I know have the report from the 3rd party inspector now He quotes the following WPS 426 (20mm butt) contained in project MDR is not applicable to Purchase order ( 6mm fillet) NDT reports revalidating welrds qual's are MP/DP only complete through thickness NDT reports (UT/RT) are required for revalidations So here we go again?? Thanks all

Ballbearing

Feb 22 2011, 04:00 AM

The Inspector, I feel very sorry for you, you have got exactly the individual I described in my last paragraph. Will have one last try at this - remember WTIA Tech Note 11 is referenced in every AS/NZS 1554 edition so while it may not be binding it does explain the intent of the authors. AS/NZS 4.12.2 2004 (f) Qualifications for welding to a specified welding procedure shall remain valid, provided that it can be shown from records maintained by the organization employing welders that the welders have been employed with reasonable continuity using the relevant welding processes and have continued to produce satisfactory welds as verified by a non-destructive examination. Nowhere is a requirement for UT/RT mentioned. MT and PT are non destructive examinations. WTIA Tech Note 11 The simplest and easiest method of verification of skill is to maintain appropriate NDE records (especially ultrasonic and radiographic test records) traceable back to the welder. Preferably can be substituted for especially but it still means the same - UT / RT are cosidered the most preferable methods but not the only NDE applicable. WTIA Tech Note 11 Once qualified to weld specific procedures, welders are permitted to extend their

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qualifications depending on the original position qualified by the welder. Table 4.12.2, introduced in the 2000 edition, with origins in ISO 9606.1, provides extensive guidance to the fabricator over and above that available in previous editions of the Standard. Table 4.12.2 states if you qualify on butt you are qualified to weld fillet - as long as you have a WPS applicable to the fillet weld you are right - end of story ! I suggest you take him out behind the bike shed and have a quiet word. LOL ! Cheers, BB

the inspector Thanks for all that BB

Feb 22 2011, 04:32 AM

mick Hi Inspector,

Feb 22 2011, 11:33 AM

"WPS 426 (20mm butt) contained in project MDR is not applicable to Purchase order ( 6mm fillet)" A butt weld WPS according to 1554.1 does not allow you to weld a fillet. If you have a WPS for a 6mm fillet which you may have then place it in your MDR! The best bet for revalidating the welder as BB said is to use UT/RT for any butt welds and MT/DP for fillets every 6 months and keep a record. Working to 1554 has a big learning curve and can be very frustrating, however you have been through the experiance and learned from it. Cheers, Mick

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