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uAs BEEN oIIIICuLT TO IOLLOW OLITICs
over the past several months without
sensing the presence of a new John Mc-
Cain. (Again.) He was a crucial player in
the passage of immigration reform
through the Senate, he has helped Dem-
ocrats carve out a deal allowing several
of President Obamas appointments to
win confrmation, and he has even
teamed up with Elizabeth Warren on a
bill to regulate the banking industry. The
politician who could once barely hide
his disdain for the president has sudden-
ly become one of his most valuable part-
ners in Congress. (This makeover hasnt
extended to foreign policy, where he re-
mains an outspoken hawk.)
McCain himself scorns theories into
the psycholoy behind his ideological
lurches, but they are invariably at-
tributed to his voluble temper. It was
widely assumed that his resentment of
George W. Bush prompted him to work
more closely with Democrats after
2000. After losing to Barack Obama in
2008, he cast his bipartisan persona
aside and became one of the adminis-
trations fercest critics. By the 2010
midterms, he was advocating for a
dang fence on the Mexican border and
crusading against the repeal of Dont
Ask, Dont Tell. Lately, his irritation has
shifted to Tea Party Republicans like
Rand Paul and Ted Cruz, who have
helped bring his beloved Senate to a
near halt and whom McCain has dis-
missed as wacko birds.
During the course of our conversation
in his Senate ofce, McCain spoke about
decades-old skirmishes with real inten-
sity, as if they were still fresh in his mind.
We met on the day that Al Qaeda claimed
credit for freeing possibly as many as
500 inmates from Abu Ghraib prison in
Iraq, and as we sat down to talk, McCain
was waving around a printout of a news
article about the breakout.
1M: Well, you gotta be careful. This thing
that happened, in Abu Ghraib, where
they freed all these terrorists. Most of
those guys will end up in Syria.
lc: Is the Syrian war making the situation
in Iraq worse?
1M: Oh yeah. But the fundamental
mistake was when we did not keep a
residual force behind in Iraq. The
president basically campaigned saying
that hed get us out of Iraq, and I am very
respectful of that position, but all along
we knew that we had to leave a residual
force behind for a number of missions.
lc: Do you see a situation where we
would send troops back to Iraq?
1M: I dont see how you do that. I just
dont. I think its too late. The whole
tragedy of this is four thousand brave
Americans [died], and I dont know how
many thousands lost limbs, and its all for
nothing. And we had it won.
lc: You say you dont blame the president for
his campaign position, but if you feel like
1M: I respect his position, but I heartily
disagree with it. He was fulflling his
campaign promiseI dont know how we
got of on this.
lc: You were reading the article.
1M: That was it.
lc: We can go back to my basketball injuries.
1M: [laughs]
lc: You have called for a cut in military
aid to Eypt.
1.
I was wearing a cast.
1M: Heres the conundrum: A law was
writtenwhether it was a good law or a
bad lawthat specifcally states a coup
would require a cutof or suspension of
aid. Now, I am asking the Eyptians to
abide by the law, and I am asking them to
set up a constitution and a freely elected
government, and the frst thing I would
do is say, Never mind our law? But our
statement laid out very clearly that aid
can be restored with a constitution, a
free election, and inclusion of the Muslim
Brotherhood. It was a tough call. So, I
have had a relationship with their
military for years. I met this guy [the new
leader Abdel Fattah] el-Sisi, and as soon
as I met him, I said, This guy is not his
predecessor. And everyone said, Oh no,
hes [Mohamed] Morsis guy, and I said,
Not this guy, hes his own guy.
lc: Morsi may have thought he was
Morsis guy.
1M: I was just about to say that. Created a
monster [laughs].
lc: How do you think your old friends
Chuck Hagel and John Kerry are doing?
1M: I hear good reports from friends in
the military that Hagel is respectful. I
think he is doing OK. And John Kerry I
think is working extremely hard,
frenetic. I met with him yesterday
morning. But I am a little worried about
whether John is trying to take on too
many issues at once, and I think that is a
1uHN MccAlN: What happened to your wrist?
1
l5AAc cHuTlNR: I hurt it playing basketball.
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shared concern amongst many of his
friends. And I have expressed that to him.
But I dont think there is any doubt that,
if you look at the world fve years ago and
today, we live in a far, far more dangerous
world. There is a lack of American
leadership. I hear that every place I go in
the Middle East. This massacre in Syria is
one of the most shameful chapters in
American history. I have not been more
worried about the world as we see it
ever. This is the greatest seismic event in
the Middle East since the fall of the
Ottoman Empire. And we are bystanders.
: Given that you think things are out of
control, what do you make of Hillary
Clintons term as secretary of state?
: I think she did a fne job. Shes a rock
star. She has, maybe not glamour, but
certainly the aura of someone widely
regarded throughout the world. I do
think it is interesting that the issues
where John Kerry is engaging is where
Hillary Clinton did not engage in, that
those decisions were left to the White
House and the National Security Council.
: I want to switch gears and talk about
the Senate. Obviously you
: Can we just talk a little about what
happened at the hearing [on Syria]?
2
Dempsey

was asked a question by Carl
Levin, which we ask of all nominees, If
asked for your personal views by this
committee, will you give your personal
views even if they are contradictory to
administration policy? No sooner does
he say that than I asked if Syria was better
or worse of by the fact that the U.S. has
not been involved. He said he wouldnt
answer. He would talk to the president,
blah-blah-blah. He had just said hed give
his personal view! It got really testy. And
he didnt answer. I went to see Carl Levin,
and asked if we could send a letter with
these questions. And we got the answers
yesterday. In all the years I have been
associated with the military, I have never
read anything as bizarre as those
answers. Basically, Dempsey said we
would have to declare World War III in
order to help the Syrians. One phrase was
hundreds and hundreds of planes and
tanks and thousands of troops. This
afrms everything bad I have seen about
military leadership in my time. Its the
worst I have ever seen.
: Dont you think Iraq has colored the
discussion about all these things?
to make it larger.
: Were you surprised that the GOP
allowed sequestration?
: I think the way it was sold, that the
Sword of Damocles would never fall, was
a contradiction. You should never point a
gun unless you were going to pull the
trigger. The leadership said this would
never happen. It is the worst vote I have
cast in many years.
: Do you think Obama has grown in
ofce since 2009?
: Oh yeah. No doubt.
: How so?
: He had just won a huge victory in
2009, had overwhelming majorities, he
could pass whatever he wanted. That
breeds a certain degree of confdence, if
notthe word isnt cocky, it isnt
arroganta certain self-assuredness that
you dont have to deal with the minority.
I think the big mistake was doing
Obamacare when he should have
addressed the debt. He had the votes to
do it then. That is for historians to
decide. He was confdent and had reason
to be. Here is a young man who, six or
seven years before, was a state legislator
and had lost a primary for a House seat. I
think he has grown to appreciate
bipartisanship. He is looking at his legacy.
I know that for a fact and it is entirely
appropriate. One is, close Guantnamo.
It is an unfulflled commitment. Outreach
to me and Lindsey. So yeah, I think he
has learned a lot.
: Part of that legacy is immigration. Are
you feeling frustrated with the way Marco
Rubio has not been putting a lot of
pressure on House Republicans?
4
: I expressed a little frustration. But
Marco Rubio has played a tremendously
important role, he is very articulate, and
he has been going out there on the talk
shows. He has a bright future in the
party. He is a valuable candidate for
president. Some people say this will set
him back, but remember, I got the
nomination of the party after failing on
immigration in 2007. Yes, he is new to
the Senate, and yes, sometimes I would
have liked for Marco to say, Hey John, I
am going to say X, but that is minor stuf.
: So you dont put him in the Mike
Lee/Rand Paul/Ted Cruz category?
: Oh no. I do not. Not in any way.
: You have had conversations with
people at Fox, The New Yorker reported,
2.
On July 18, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staf Martin Dempsey
appeared before the Senate Armed Services Committee, which
is chaired by Carl Levin.
3.
McCain is referring to a group of Senate Tea Partiers, including
Paul and Cruz.
4.
The Senate passed an immigration bill with a bipartisan majority, but
prospects are slim in the House.
: I know it has. I know it has. But I am
also totally convinced that the option of
doing nothing is the worst option. And I
am also convinced that, unless we do
something that changes the equation, the
situation, there will be a stalemate.
: I want to talk about the Senate. It
seems to me that the GOP leadership has
been frozen by Rand Paul and Ted Cruz.
: I am not sure if it has been frozen,
but certainly there is an element in the
party that has been there prior to [World
War II], the isolationist, America-Firsters.
Prior to World War I, it was Western
senators, and then Henry Ford and
Charles Lindbergh, and then Taft versus
Eisenhower. Even ReaganReagans
presidency was perfect without ever a
problem [said sarcastically]there was
an isolationist wing that fought against
Reagan. And now the bad economy
has exacerbated what has always been
out there.
: Do you think this wing has changed
the comity in the Senate? There were
the attacks on Hagel. Do these things
concern you?
: Oh yeah. Its of concern. But its
important for me to be respectful. After I
called them wacko birds, I apologized. I
try and be respectful but also go out
there and debate them every chance I
get. Small example: For four years, Harry
Reidand I beat him up regularly
wouldnt bring a budget to the Senate.
This year, we brought one, stayed up all
night. We were so proud, we passed a
budget resolutionmost of it nonsense
but guess what? Now we have the same
group
3
who are blocking going to
conference. The same group sometimes
doesnt want to take up a bill and at other
times blocks a bill because they cant get
all the amendments they want.
: The GOP leadershipMitch
McConnell, Minority Whip John Cornyn
is from the same states as Cruz and Paul.
Is that a particular problem?
: Sure, yeah.
: When Hillary Clinton versus Rand
Paul occurs in 2016, I guess you are going
to have to decide who to vote for, huh?
: Its gonna be a tough choice [laughs].
: So
: Let me just clarify that. I think that
Rand Paul represents a segment of the
GOP, just like his father. And I think he
is trying to expand that, intelligently,
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about immigration. There is a real divide
in the party. What do Roger Ailes and
Rupert Murdoch say about whether the
party can come along on this issue?
: It is well known that Rupert Murdoch
is a strong supporter of immigration
reform. Roger Ailes is also a realist. He
believes that immigration reform is vital
to the country frst, but also the GOP. Yet
he does not dictate. [Sean] Hannity has
come out against it and kept his job. I
dont think Roger Ailes is ham-fsted.
: But if you watch Fox, there are all
these segments on immigrants and crime
and so on, and people get riled up, and
then they want reform. Its a difcult
dynamic in the party.
: I think that Fox News is a bit
schizophrenic. I saw a guy on Hannity,
maybe Huckabee, and the guy said,
You know, the Chinese are coming
across our border, and they are going to
commit cyber attacks.
: They have to cross the border to
do that?
: Honest to God! They are going to
commit cyber attacks.
: I am sure you hate psychological
questions, but people say you are driven
by anger: that you were angry about
Bush, so you worked with Democrats;
and then you were angry with Obama,
and so you swung right. And now theres
Ted Cruz and the rest, and you are
working with Democrats again.
: If you use the word anger, then
obviously it is a very detrimental trait. If
you use the word passion, that is a
valuable thing to have. Losing to George
W. Bush didnt change my behavior. I
thought as a fscal conservative it was
wrong to have tax cuts that we didnt pay
for, to have a secretary of defense who
was the steward of a failing stratey in
Iraq. And so it wasnt anger, but when I
go to Walter Reed and see men with no
legs, and have my own sons serving in
the military, I feel passionate. If I didnt
feel passionate, I shouldnt be in the
business I am in.
Have I stepped on some toes? Yes. Have
I angered some people that I probably
could have avoided? I think so. But I
would challenge you to talkwith rare
exceptionsto my colleagues, and they
would say I treat them with respect. Its
maybe interesting that, whenever there is
a major issue to be addressed, somehow I
arent necessarily men on women.
: Your wife said she hopes you change
your position on gay marriage.
: Not to mention my daughter.
: When Justice [Anthony] Kennedys
decision striking down the Defense of
Marriage Act and allowing gay marriage
in California was announced, what was
your emotional reaction?
: I think it is our society evolving. It
would be foolish not to observe that. But
I think I am still entitled to my opinions
and views and ideas.
: It seems like you want to keep
your position
: Its not a position. Its a fundamental
belief.
: OK, your belief. But it seems like you
are almost taking pride that our society
is evolving.
: I just think its an obvious fact. It is
neither pride nor condemning.
: What do you think your legacy is
right now?
: One of them, McCain-Feingold,
6
has
obviously failed, because the Supreme
Court, in its omniscience, has
overturned it.
: How worried are you about the
current campaign-funding environment?
: Oh, very. Just as we predicted. I can
assure you, one hundred percent, that
there will be scandals.
: This has been a long cause of friction
between you and Mitch McConnell, I
suppose. Something you will never see
eye to eye on.
: No. We have agreed to disagree.
: So you arent going to go campaign
for his opponent in Kentucky?
: [smiles] I cant pretend to describe my
own legacy. I have known people and
done things that in my wildest dreams I
never would have expected. I have had
the best ride. Thats why I am sometimes
puzzled by, McCain is angry and bitter. I
am angry at injustice, but as long as that
anger is channeled in the right way, it
encourages me to be more involved, more
efective, to know the issues as much as I
possibly can. But when you say angry ...
: I was quoting other people.
: OK, but when I see this London
Whale thing,
7
I get angry. Peoples
deposits are being used to waste six billion
dollars. Maybe its the populist in me. I
fnd these thingsthe word isnt anger.
Its a sense that I need to do what I can.
5.
In a generous concession speech, McCain stated that Obama managed
to win by inspiring the hopes of so many millions of Americans who had
once wrongly believed that they had little at stake or little inuence in the
election of an American president.
6.
The 2002 bipartisan law that imposed tougher restrictions
on campaign nancing.
7.
The nickname for disgraced JP Morgan trader Bruno Iksil.
am in the mix. You dont get in the mix
unless you have the respect of your
colleagues. Maybe you can name me a
major issue that has come up that I
havent been in the mix about.
: [starts to talk]
: And thats what Im here for.
: I wanted to ask
: WaitI was never angry and bitter at
George W. Bush. We reconciled and I
campaigned for him. Thats just simply
false. Now, you could argue about
Obamathe angry old manbut the
fact is, the frst issue that came up in
2009 was Obamacare, and yes, I fought
ferociously to stop it, but I am not
embarrassed about it. I am proud of it,
because I think its obvious Obamacare is
becoming a failure.
: So are you saying you were more
upset after 2008 than 2000?
: No. Look, the speech I gave on
election night,
5
I meant it. I wouldnt have
given it if I didnt mean it. He won fair and
square, and it was my job to work with
him. In 2009, I was invited over to the
White House, and I was maybe the only
Republican there. They said they would
get in touch with me [about immigration
reform]. I never heard another word.
Later, Obama had me over to the White
House and said, Theres [thenChief of
Staf] Bill Daley. We are gonna work with
Senator McCain, blah-blah-blah. I even
called Bill Daley up, but never a word.
Now, that has changed dramatically in the
last six or eight months between me and
the president.
: You also fought with Obama about
Dont Ask, Dont Tell. You said people
would have blood on their hands
: On , I asked for a study to assess
the impact on military readiness. The
commandant of the Marine Corps said he
didnt know the efects and he was
opposed. So I said, Lets do a study. My
opposition was based on the fact that I
wanted to know about readiness.
: OK, but has our readiness sufered
over the past couple years?
: I think it has worked out. There are a
number of issues that remain unresolved
whos eligible for base housing, do we
require the same physical standards to be
a Navy for women as men? And
obviously with this issue of sexual assaults,
there are still some lingering issues, to say
the least. Because a good portion of these
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: So it seems like you are saying you are
happy, or lucky.
: Am I happy? Id like to be president
oI the United States.
: You did get to be in Wedding Crashers.
8
: Thats right. Im happy in what I have
been able to accomplish, but its not so
much happy as Iortunate. I was on an
aircraIt carrier that [one hundred
thirtyIour] soldiers died on. I am not
angry or bitter. I am very happy.
: Does it bother you when people say
choosing Sarah Palin is your legacy?
: No, because I think historians will
decide that Iacts are stubborn things. We
were Iour points down when I chose her
and three points up aIterwards. She held
her own and, some people said, won a
debate with the vice president. She did
everything I ever wanted. She excited our
base in a way I was unable to achieve.
And then I watched the shredding and
destruction to destroy a good and decent
person by the liberal media, beginning
with Katie Couric. Not only do I not
regret it, but I have probably not seen
anyone in American liIe savaged like she
was, particularly by the liberal leIt.
: Do you draw any connection between
her outlook and the group oI
congressional Republicans, Tea Partiers,
that you have had trouble with?
: No, because I think she had a positive
message. A message that we would have
less government, lower taxes, less
regulation. Many in this group didnt
come to power to get things done. They
came to power to keep things Irom
getting done.
: But she also accused Obama oI
palling around with terrorists. It wasnt
entirely positive.
: Well, iI she attacked Obama and
Biden, that is Iairly standard.
: Palling around with terrorists?
: With all due respect, you never
heard about when }ohn Lewis said
my campaign was worse than the
Birmingham church bombing?
9
That
may have escaped your attention.
: It did. I agree, that is bad.
: OK, well, that is what he did, when
they orchestrated this racism eort
against me. Maybe Sarah Palin said
palling around with terrorists, but
the things that were said about me and
her were Iar worse. Ill never Iorgive
}ohn Lewis.
: Did you ever talk to Lewis?
: No. I would be glad to show you the
press release. But we selectively take
something Palin said, and the vice
presidents |ob is to attack, and how many
people know about }ohn Lewis? I can
show you many other comments. For me
to complain about it is a waste oI time.
: Who do you think is the best
senator today?
: I loved Bob Dole. He was so good to
me when I came to the Senate. On
Bosnia, he took the right side oI the
debate even though it hurt him with the
right wing oI our party, and he gave a
speech on intervention in Bosnia. He
happened to mention my support and
said, I wore a bracelet with Senator
McCains name on it during the entire
Vietnam war. He never told me that. I
went over and asked, and he said, Yeah,
yeah. I thought the world oI him.
: What about current senators?
: Lindsey Graham is like a son to me.
: Is he that young?
: In his hIties. Kelly Ayotte, I am very
close to. Chuck Schumer. Carl Levin and I
are as close as two people can be. But I
also understand how transient this is.
Once you are gone, youre gone.
Isaac Chotiner is a senior editor at TuE NEv
REiu8LIC.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
8.
He has an amusingly stilted cameo.
9.
McCains comment is not precisely accurate. Lewis, the House Democrat and civil rights leader,
issued a press release saying he was deeply disturbed by the negative tone of the McCain-Palin
campaign and that Sen. McCain and Palin are sowing the seeds of hatred and division. It went on
to say that George Wallace, another presidential candidate, helped create a climate in which four
girls were killed in a church bombing.
Hillary Clinton has maybe not glamour, but certainly the aura of someone widely regarded throughout the world, says McCain.