•

•
Debates | People

•
•
•Join|
• Login
Explore Debate Communities
• Create▼
• Debates▼
• People▼
• Profile▼
• About▼
• 2-Sided Debate
• Popularity Contest
•
• New Debate Community

• New Activity
• Most Heated
• Most Recent
• Most Arguments
• Most Votes
• Challenge Debates
• Debate Research
•
• My Debates
• My Waterfall
• Public Waterfall

• Debate Teams
• School Communities
• Organizations
•
• New Debate Community

• Newest Recruits
• Most Persuasive
• Most Provocative
• Most Outspoken
• Most Creative
• Alphabetically
 •
• My Allies
• My Enemies
• My Hostiles

• Edit My Basics
• Edit My Account
• Edit My Picture
• Edit My Allies
• Edit My Enemies
• Edit My Notifications
•
• My Points
• My Debates
• My Conversations

• The CreateDebate Blog

•
• Site Tour
• Help/FAQ
• Newsletter Archive
• Invite Your Friends
• RSS & XML Feeds
•
• Contact Us
• Advertise
• Show All Replies
• Share This Debate
• Bookmark This Debate
• Sort By Time
• Debate Stats

Debate Info
no yes

Debate Score: 60
Arguments: 37
Total Votes: 92
Show More Stats
Argument Tags
yes (35)

No (16)

Too many variables (1)

Debate Creator

pinks(5)
 #1 #2 #3
Paste this URL into an email Click here to send this debate Click here to login and
or IM: via your default email CreateDebate will send an
application. email for you.
How does this debate work? Show Debate Quick Tips
Popular Debates: Will global warming kill us? (this is only for those who believe in global
warming) Should parental consent be required for underage pregnant women to have
abortions? Should "In God We Trust" remain the USA's motto?
end is more important than means
no yes
Side Score: 26 Side Score: 34
Add New Argument Add New Argument

Spoonerism(237) sw8princezz(1)
 2 points 2 points
No, results are not the only thing that see in this result oriented whai is matter is the
matters. goal not the path... i knw its against ethics
If we followed this maxim, then cheating but if you follow ethics you will lag behind the
your way through school, but graduating as race
valedictorian would be fine. The end is 27 days ago | Tagged As: yes
justified. Support | Dispute
The way you achieve something is as anoop(12)
important as the end result. I think this
saying was created in order to justify 2 points
unjustifiable actions, as a way of ignoring yes, end is more important than means
ethical obligations and getting away with it. because we do all the things for the end or we
Unfortunately, it simply doesn't work. can say good results but not for watching
16 days ago | Tagged As: No what essential and important things have
Support | Dispute been used. e.g. our parents do many things
↑ Hide Replies for us but they use several things without
caring that what they have used. Instead,
prince(3) Disputed they know that what they have used will
surely give a good end.
2 points 12 days ago | Tagged As: yes
i cant understand how my worthy opponent Support | Dispute
fails to see the difference between the ↑ Hide Replies
justification of the mean on the basis of the
end obtained and the importance to the end. Kuklapolitan(3685) Disputed
for eg. america used nuclear weapons to win
the war. THE END IS ALWAYS GIVEN 1 point
IMPORTANCE IN THE WAR LIKE THAT> NOT And if your parents beat you into submission,
THE MEAN USED. BUT IT IS FAR FROM is that a good means to an end of doing well
JUSTICICATION OF THE MISUSE OF in school or other places? No, it's not. You're
NUCLEAR ENERGY. going on the assumption that everyone's
journey is a good one, a fair one and not an
3 days ago | Tagged As: yes unjust one. That's just wrong because some
Support | Dispute people will step all over others to get what
↑ Hide Replies they want. All they care about is the end
Spoonerism(237) Disputed result and not the means it took to get there.
1 day 16hrs ago | Tagged As: No
2 points Support | Dispute
The end, unlike the cheese, does not stand
phoenix(2)
alone. It was the result of some previous
action(s) taken. So the importance of the
end cannot be considered alone. It is equally 2 points
important to be moral in the means by i strongly feel that end is far more important
which you achieve something as the end than the means used to obtain the result. the
which you sought. point is clearly evident from the fact that
when you join a new school,or make a new
If it were true that the end were more friend, one of the questions that they will pose
important than the means, then terrorism is What u want to become in the future? and
ought to be perfectly acceptable. Afterall, not how u want to become like that. As stated
the end is what matters. by my friend in this competitive world, the
The reason I brought up the justification
argument is that the original quote by
Machiavelli is "The end justifies the means",
so I was really only bringing it up in order to
dispute the saying itself.
2 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
chitransh(1)
2 points great winners of the world. Do they care what
when we walk through in our life by taking it took to get there? Did they let anything get
means then only we will reach the end.such in their way or slow them down? No. Arnold
that means are important in life.
9 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
↑ Hide Replies
anoop(12) Disputed
1 point
But we will not talk about the means till we
do not even think about the end. Suppose,
you are climbing over the Mt. Everest but
you would only talk about the used means in
that, when you would make it definite that
what your actual aim is and what do you
actually want to achieve
1 day 23hrs ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
deepishm
2 points
life is built on certain ethics,morals
,valuwes,divine justice.......
have my opponents made up their mind to
sacrifice this for the end.......
2 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
deepishm
2 points
one of my opponents says krishna has
followed some unfair means let me tell my
friend he wants to teach people unfair
means is always unfair and it must be
avoided at any cost.....
he also makes the point whether one will be
destination of your journey is important not
the path taken.
7 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
nagtroll(255)
2 points
Yes, the end is the whole point. Without an
end, the means don't matter. Look at the
Schwarzenegger is a winner, and he did what
it took to get there. It was very difficult, and
he put in a lot of work, but in the end it all
paid off. And he didn't have to kill anyone to
get there either. He made personal sacrifices
in order to get there. But in the end he was a
winner because of it.
6 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
ARNAB9(1)
2 points
YES END IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE
MEANS. SUPPOSE U HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS
IN UR TABLE BUT IF U DON'T WANT TO
STUDY THAN THERE IS NO USE TO HAVE
THEM.
5 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
phoenix(2)
2 points
Philosophically, it may be right to say that
means used is important but in¬ practical life,
it is highly impossible to give preference to
the means alone! How many of you use the
sincere means at every point of ur life?
In this contemporary world, if you keep
giving preference to the means¬ alone,
without any estimation about your end then,
even after a lot of hardships you will find
yourself in the middle of no where! Then if
you turn back to your past, you will find only
blank spaces instead of success.
5 days ago | Tagged As: yes
ready to taste failure after hardwork.......... Support | Dispute
what absurdity it is hard work will never antim1
take you to failure is he ready to follow
unfair means in the exams to get good 2 points
marks?????? William Shakespeare said,"All's well that ends
Krishna's words are very clear if you work well".So,of all the cases in the world the end
hard you need not look for the fruit it will of everything decides whether it is good or
come itself.... bad.If we have to achieve success in life, we
2 days ago | Tagged As: yes have to fix the goal and act accordingly.For
Support | Dispute example,many philosophers and scientists
↑ Hide Replies first decided their aim and went on
discovering many valuable things...............
prince(3) Disputed
If my competitors argue that,in gita Krishna
said that we should keep on working hard not
1 point expecting any end,then i would like to say
dear deepishm, that the saying is totally impractical and can't
ur comment to rebut my teammate is not be used in this fast moving 21st century.
meaningful-krishna did not teach any one I would like to rebut that Lord Krishna himself
what u said but he taught that according to at times used unfair means in the war
the situation , u will have to shift ur because he was determined to win the war.
preference. he wanted to show that evil
must be supressed at anycost In case of the exams you yourselves
appear,would you like to fail after doing a lot
1 day ago | Tagged As: yes of hard work..........no,so it proves that if end
Support | Dispute is good every thing is good.
deepishm lets take this argument as an example,if you
have given your comments then leave this site
2 points and let me alone enjoy the points provided.Ha
i want to ask my one of my opponents who ha ha!
mentioned about scientists,he says scientists
4 days ago | Tagged As: yes
set their goals and work towards it did
Support | Dispute
einstein set his goal,did newton set his goal
first????? phoenix(2)
2 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute 2 points
↑ Hide Replies Let me take you to the ages of mahatma
gandhi. he gave a lot of importance to the
anoop(12) Disputed means. But let me remind you all that during
the chauri chaura incident, India enjoyed the
1 point maximum advantage and to be precise, india
but that was an unexpected case and the would have driven out the britishers out of our
mean would not have been so important if land, if gandhi had not called off this
Newton had not put it to the goal, to the use movement. That was a tremendous mistake
and to the END. Thus, the importance of the made by mahatma, or india would have been
mean is dependent on the end pest free long before 1947 and by now it
1 day 23hrs ago | Tagged As: yes might have made a lot of economical and
Support | Dispute biologial progess!
Warlin(411) 3 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
 1 point aadilbrar(1)
Situations. Situations.
There are way too many variables left out of 1 point
these little sayings. Like what IS the end yes end is more important than the means
and what ARE the means? If killing someone because most of the people in against it take
would save the whole world, does it justify the support of lame civilization world if you
the end-is the end more important? Maybe. want to be remembered you can do anything
But what if you killed someone to save your good or bad.
baseball card collection... Then is the end
33 days ago | Tagged As: yes
more important than the means?
Support | Dispute
As far as these concept goes, it's impossible
Praty(1)
to tag one thing as more important than the
other because the means may have more
impact than the end or vice versa. 1 point
As my allies have said it is no point in saying
33 days ago | Tagged As: Too many
that means justify the ends in 21st century.
variables
Henry Wadsworth has said "we judge
Support | Dispute
ourselves by what we feel we could do, while
↑ Hide Replies
others judge us by what we have already
Kuklapolitan(3685) Supported done no matter how we did it". To support his
view let us take the example of China. China's
1 point child policy, Olympics forced recruitment you
You wrote it as I would have Warlin...right all will say are big infringements of individual
on! rights. indeed they are but they have given
``````````````````````````````````` china a strategic position in the world.
5 days ago | Tagged As: No Whatever expressions of China we form today
Support | Dispute will all be faded soon when China will become
the next SUPERPOWER of the world.
aniketjoshi(1)
2 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
1 point
Without Means it may be correct or incorrect anoop(12)
the aim cannot be achieved. to reach to the
end we need to start. 1 point
27 days ago | Tagged As: No If one doesnt even knows that what is the end
Support | Dispute of a work or the used means, then what is the
↑ Hide Replies importance of the used means. We use the
resources but we identify them when we use
anoop(12) Disputed them. Till they do not come in our use, we are
not able to know them and thus they have no
1 point identity of their own.
actually, ankit joshi is wrong because though 1 day 23hrs ago | Tagged As: yes
we need a starting but we work and use the Support | Dispute
means for a definite destination and that Add New Argument
destination is the end. And I would like to
remind one thing to you that it has been
said that end is more important than the
means but it has not been said that means
is not important. Only the comparison has
been made.
 12 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
↑ Hide Replies
Kuklapolitan(3685) Disputed

1 point
I believe the means are the most important
factors of the journey to the end. People can
do some pretty mean things in order to get
to the end they wish to reach. Therefore the
means are the most important steps you can
take to reach a good end.
5 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
↓ Show Replies
vaish(1)

1 point
If we take values, morals, ethics into
account and count it more towards the
spiritual way then means definetly becomes
the most important factor. Its natural for
everyone to look back at where they come
from and want to show their struggles. This
justifies the importance of means.
"True good is never achieved by the doing of
evil"- Adolf Hitler is an EXAMPLE !!
19 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
athulya(1)

1 point
the road of life twists and turns...no two
directions are same. yet our lesson comes
from the journey not the destination.
17 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
↑ Hide Replies
anoop(12) Disputed

1 point
but the lessons from the road which we get
is due to the journey but we start that
journey just to get the destination
12 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
 joecavalry(7054)

1 point
Think of it like a movie. The end may be
sensational but there are only a few movies
where the end is sensational and, when it is,
it is due to the special effects which is, of
course, the means. So the means is more
important ;)
8 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
↑ Hide Replies
anoop(12) Disputed

1 point
This is a very surprising point and I have a
strong point against that: No movie finishes
without an end and about the special effects
by the means, actually, we cannot use them
till we are moving towards the end. So, end
has already made a pathway for the others
to came and means are just the sources to
follow that path and nothing else
2 days ago | Tagged As: yes
Support | Dispute
aditi26(1)

1 point
i think end is not as much as important than
means
because if our means are not right than how
our end or goal is pure
if we lack in means , we are unable to
achieve specific ends
6 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
↑ Hide Replies
anoop(12) Disputed

1 point
But you can even see the examples of those
children who are not having great means but
are still going well and are achieving those
goals that a person having total means is
not being able to achieve
2 days ago | Tagged As: yes
 Support | Dispute
Banshee(131)

1 point
In every war, every act of oppression, every
instigation of genocide, every institution of
slavery . . . have we not always argued that
the ends would justify the atrocities of the
means? And did they?
.....
Ends: Promoting democracy
Means: Vietnam War
.....
Ends: Increasing material resource trade to
Europe
Means: Apartheid
.....
Ends: Preparing a young person to be
married
Means: Genital mutlilation
.....
Ends: Exploration of New World
Means: Genocide and forced relocations of
Native peoples
.....
Ends: Healthy economy of southern states
Means: Slavery
.....
I agree with Spooner - the saying "the ends
justify the means" is all-too-often an excuse
to disregard ethics, and to attempt to justify
the unjustifiable by slapping a platitude on
it.
5 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
martianmonk(1)

1 point
The means is much much more important
than the end. suppose you want to be the
person with the top marks in class or
college, what you need to do is study really
hard... but instead the common practice is
copying or peeking. if found out, this can
lead to your failure in not only the exam, but
also in life. you will become known as a
rowdy. why not avoid all that and just rectify
your means for reaching a desirable end?
after all, you know the old saying...
"prevention is much better than cure"
3 days ago | Tagged As: No
Support | Dispute
Add New Argument

About Sharing Tools Reach Out Basic Stuff

CreateDebate Invite Your Friends Advertise User Agreement
The CreateDebate Blog Bookmarklets Contact Us Privacy Policy
Take a Tour Partner Buttons Report Abuse Sitemap
Help/FAQ RSS & XML Feeds Twitter Creative Commons
Newsletter Archive

©2009 CreateDebate, LLC All Rights Reserved. User content, unless source quoted, licensed under a Creative
Commons License.

Already a Member? Login. OR Join CreateDebate! It's quick and easy.

Please do not take examples of toilet or your bathroom.Try to make the

debate more serious.these are my views on the topic-
Why the "Means to the end" is more important than the end?

That is, how you try and realize a goal or desire will have a big impact on the scope of the
outcome. Ok, lets use something simple and more understandable to try and explain what
we mean first? Lets say hypothetically that four people all have the same emotional
trauma, that prevents them from letting someone (anyone) be intimate with them. After
sometime each decides they want to move on from this restriction. They each take a
different route to do this;

The first sees their doctor and gets a prescription which relaxes them, releases them from
some inhibitions and makes them less anxious.

The second goes to a homeopath who they see for six months and feel very much better,
they are much more open and more comfortable getting closer to someone.

The third goes to an healer who is intent on 'making people feel better'. Here, their
symptoms disappear for a while but after a few days or weeks they return, requiring that
they continue the treatment to remain stabilized.

The fourth goes for some deep transformational work. They have periods during this work
where they feel much more uncomfortable as they are facilitated to explore and reflect
during their sessions but after a few months they feel completely cleared of this issue.

Now, we would say that all of these are successful solutions. But lets look at these more
closely;

The first has to continue taking medication as without they are prone to panic attacks
when in their new relationship. You could say that this is a surface solution, which is
controlling the symptoms but has in no way resolved the original trauma.

The second has been released from the disabling patterns held within their current
incarnate form, so they continue without problems in this existence. However, from a
multidimensional perspective the trauma may originate in another existence and come
back when they re-incarnate the next time. If the trauma originated from this lifetime
then there would be a good chance that it would be completely cleared with this
approach.

The third is fairly typical of much of the energy work happening today where the intent is
to help people feel better but again does not facilitate exploring or resolving the original
cause. Many energy workers and healers are unknowingly (accepting at face value what is
said about their form of energy work) facilitating people by either pushing traumas
deeper into the energy body or of actually sealing the traumas away in an attempt to
prevent them from arising. Again, this is a solution, but it is a solution which makes it
much more difficult for the soul to resolve that original trauma in the future - the trauma
is now less obvious and more hidden. It is also stressing the energy bodies of the person
as energy is required to keep it hidden and sealed which can lead to more problems in
future incarnations.

The fourth, facilitates the person to resolve and fully release the original either
consciously or indirectly. This frees their soul from all further manifestations of this
trauma. It is effectively resolved completely. This approach generally takes the client into
uncomfortable areas and is therefore not as 'nice' or 'gentle' as many people would either
like, want or actually understand.

Resolving some of our own traumas has taken a long time, simply because we have
needed to understand the above with regards everything that we do. For example a
favourite solution I used in other existences was to hide or bury traumas and suppress
feelings to such an extent that it was no longer feasible to continue doing the same - the
energy debt was simply too much. The weight of this baggage itself was becoming a
trauma.

Limited, quick fix, surface, 'means to an end' solutions are also a reflection of many
cultures on earth today. The saying - "why do today what you can put off until tomorrow?"
sums it up perfectly. Hence many of the established and readily chosen solutions as
described above are the most limiting and short term while those offering a complete or
lasting resolution require a degree of discomfort, effort, self reflection and time to bring to
completion.

This pattern is in everything that we do. Many people are very tired, depressed, drained
and spent simply because they wish to continue with the comfortable but limited
solutions, not understanding that it is often these that are responsible for how they feel in
the first place.

Although we have focused on an emotional challenge causing life restrictions here. We

could very easily do the same thing with regards spiritual approaches where outcome is
more important than either the means or intention held to that drives the means. Read
the That is, how you try and realize a goal or desire will have a big impact on the
scope of the outcome. Ok, lets use something simple and more understandable to try
and explain what we mean first? Lets say hypothetically that four people all have the
same emotional trauma, that prevents them from letting someone (anyone) be
intimate with them. After sometime each decides they want to move on from this
restriction. They each take a different route to do this;

• The first sees their doctor and gets a prescription which relaxes them,
releases them from some inhibitions and makes them less anxious.
• The second goes to a homeopath who they see for six months and feel
very much better, they are much more open and more comfortable
getting closer to someone.
• The third goes to an healer who is intent on 'making people feel
better'. Here, their symptoms disappear for a while but after a few
days or weeks they return, requiring that they continue the treatment
to remain stabilized.
• The fourth goes for some deep transformational work. They have
periods during this work where they feel much more uncomfortable as
they are facilitated to explore and reflect during their sessions but
after a few months they feel completely cleared of this issue.

Now, we would say that all of these are successful solutions. But lets look at these
more closely;

• The first has to continue taking medication as without they are prone
to panic attacks when in their new relationship. You could say that this
is a surface solution, which is controlling the symptoms but has in no
way resolved the original trauma.
• The second has been released from the disabling patterns held within
their current incarnate form, so they continue without problems in this
existence. However, from a multidimensional perspective the trauma
may originate in another existence and come back when they re-
incarnate the next time. If the trauma originated from this lifetime
then there would be a good chance that it would be completely cleared
with this approach.
• The third is fairly typical of much of the energy work happening today
where the intent is to help people feel better but again does not
facilitate exploring or resolving the original cause. Many energy
workers and healers are unknowingly (accepting at face value what is
said about their form of energy work) facilitating people by either
pushing traumas deeper into the energy body or of actually sealing the
traumas away in an attempt to prevent them from arising. Again, this
is a solution, but it is a solution which makes it much more difficult for
the soul to resolve that original trauma in the future - the trauma is
now less obvious and more hidden. It is also stressing the energy
bodies of the person as energy is required to keep it hidden and sealed
which can lead to more problems in future incarnations.
• The fourth, facilitates the person to resolve and fully release the
original either consciously or indirectly. This frees their soul from all
further manifestations of this trauma. It is effectively resolved
 completely. This approach generally takes the client into uncomfortable
areas and is therefore not as 'nice' or 'gentle' as many people would
either like, want or actually understand.

Resolving some of our own traumas has taken a long time, simply because we have
needed to understand the above with regards everything that we do. For example a
favourite solution I used in other existences was to hide or bury traumas and
suppress feelings to such an extent that it was no longer feasible to continue doing
the same - the energy debt was simply too much. The weight of this baggage itself
was becoming a trauma.

Limited, quick fix, surface, 'means to an end' solutions are also a reflection of many
cultures on earth today. The saying - "why do today what you can put off until
tomorrow?" sums it up perfectly. Hence many of the established and readily chosen
solutions as described above are the most limiting and short term while those
offering a complete or lasting resolution require a degree of discomfort, effort, self
reflection and time to bring to completion.

This pattern is in everything that we do. Many people are very tired, depressed,
drained and spent simply because they wish to continue with the comfortable but
limited solutions, not understanding that it is often these that are responsible for
how they feel in the first place.

Although we have focused on an emotional challenge causing life restrictions here.

We could very easily do the same thing with regards spiritual approaches where
outcome is more important than either the means or intention held to that drives the
means. Read the other articles for more on these.

other articles for more on these.