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THE SPACE OF THE SOUL: AN INTERVIEW WITH SOFIA
GUBAIDULINA
Ivan Moody
Tempo / Volume 66 / Issue 259 / January 2012, pp 31 - 35
DOI: 10.1017/S0040298212000046, Published online: 10 February 2012
Link to this article: http://journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S0040298212000046
How to cite this article:
Ivan Moody (2012). THE SPACE OF THE SOUL: AN INTERVIEW WITH SOFIA GUBAIDULINA.
Tempo, 66, pp 31-35 doi:10.1017/S0040298212000046
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31 Tempo 66 (259) 3135 2012 Cambridge University Press
doi:10.1017/S0040298212000046 Printed in the United Kingdom

rnt sract or rnt soui

.
a irtrvitw wirn soria
outainuiia
Ivan Moody
Abstract: In this interview Gubaidulina discusses her understanding of religion and the way in
which it relates to her music, by means of symbolism and metaphor. In particular she speaks of
her understanding of the Apocalypse as a book of light, greatly influenced by the writings of Fr
Aleksandr Men. She talks about the symbolism of instruments in her work, notably percussion,
which she sees as a way to the subconscious; her understanding of the role of modernism in
music, and the way in which her work connects with this historical process; and also her use of
the Fibonacci sequence. The relationship of her music to liturgy is discussed, as is the double path,
apparently contradictory, of the artist who composes both liturgical and concert music. The expe-
rience of the composer during the profound changes in music during the 20th century, specifically
as regards possible intersections between modernism and spirituality, are also discussed.
The month of February 2011 saw a week-long cycle of Sofia
Gubaidulinas music hosted by the Centro Cultural de Belm, just out-
side Lisbon. The composer was present for the entire cycle, the first in
a series of such celebrations that took place during her 80th birthday
year. Many of her works were receiving their Portuguese premires,
and a new version of her bayan concerto, Fachwerk, received its first
performance. This interview took place on 9 February at the compos-
ers hotel, where she gave more than generously of her time.
Ivan Moody: The object of my current research, and the reason for this
interview, is the investigation of modernism and Orthodox spirituality
in contemporary music, apparently contradictory phenomena. So, to
begin, do you see works such as Memphis Nights (1968) or Rubaiyat
(1969) as religious, or spiritual, works? Do they relate to your overtly
religious music, such as In Croce (1979) or the St John Passion (2000)
and St John Easter (2001), or are they another way of approaching the
idea of re-ligio, reconnexion?
Sofia Gubaidulina: The word religion has to do with re-ligio,
reconnecting, yes, that is how I understand it. And so all my
works are religious. And this understanding is very precious
to me, because these are the principles of my work. As for the
relationship of these other works to the Passion and Easter, all the
other works have to do with my own personal drama in relation
to this religious question. In Aus dem Stundenbuch (From the
Book of Hours, 1991), on texts by Rilke, it is more obvious. It is
a very precious feeling for me. This monk suffers his own drama
in relation to God. Calm is established and the drama of the
personal relationship continues. He enters a room and sees that
God is alone. He asks if God has no-one to bring Him a glass of
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rtro 32
water, or tie His sandals. He is searching for this connexion, a very
personal process of discovery. I dont know what you think of this
as a priest?
IM: I suppose I see it somewhat like the types in the Bible, such as the burning
bush being a type of the Virgin Mary, a symbol, a metaphor.
SG: And symbols have many meanings
IM: And it seems to me that this path leads to the Passion and Easter.
Because dealing with these themes is working directly with the subject,
not only by means of metaphors, but more concretely.
SG: Its like an unattainable object at the end of the path but it is
metaphor too. The metaphor of the Cross, the most important
symbol and always present.
IM: I am very impressed by your vision of the Apocalypse in two works, And:
The feast is in full progress (I: prazdnestvo v razgare, 1993) and in the
St John Passion and St John Easter, because I think that there exists
a common, negative, misunderstanding of the term people forget that
the Greek word (apokalypsis) is simply revelation, or a
lifting of a veil. Could you comment on this?
SG: I agree, yes. A new earth and a new heaven. I read many texts
by the Fathers, and by Fr Aleksandr Men.
1
He insists that people
must understand that the Book of Revelation is luminous. The
symbols of the new earth and the new heaven, before which
people undergo many catastrophes and so on but it is difficult
to conceive of the Book as only light the story of mankind
contains much sin. The symbol of the rider is the symbol of the
greatest struggle of mankind, the greatest battle. Because there
is suffering, the Woman clothed with the Sun, the Dragon, and
so on. Yes, there is light he wished to contest this usual idea of
people of suffering; its first and foremost a book of light. But we
cannot reach this light.
IM: I am reminded of a poem by a friend of mine, a Greek poet, Yiannis
Ifantis, which for me expresses this idea very well:
In most men you see
yourself as in a glass darkly. Almost always
before you, narrow windows, cracked or blurred, stand
or pass. And I think that the presence of God
or, as they say, the Day Of Judgement, shall be
nothing more
than a clear, large mirror where you shall see yourself
from head to toe, and rejoice
in the essence of your presence with crystal clarity.
I understand by this that the mirror is a process by which a person
comprehends all the sin, all the negative elements of the Apocalypse, the
Revelation, and arrives at the end, understanding the original purity of
Gods creation.
SG: Very good. The Apocalypse as the attainment of purity.
IM: And that is the only way of understanding the Apocalypse because it
contains that light.
SG: Yes, the light which is purity.
1
Fr Aleksandr Men (19351990) was a Russian Orthodox priest, theologian, scholar and writ-
er. He was also a martyr he was shot dead while en route to his parish. His writings, often
controversial, have had a great impact in Russia, and are becoming increasingly known in
the West.
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IM: There is a great deal of symbolism in your work; I wanted to ask if
you have any particular symbolic associations in your frequent use of
percussion, because it seems to me that percussion, being in between the
pitched and non-pitched, opens the sound space, opens the door between
two worlds.
SG: It is a very great mystery, percussion understanding the
acoustics of these instruments. And performers always try to
hide this mystery, covering and stopping the sound. They open
the sound and immediately stop it. But the percussion has an
acoustic cloud around it, a cloud that cannot be analysed. These
instruments are at the boundary between palpable reality and the
subconscious, because they have these acoustics. Their purely
physical characteristics, of the timpani and membranophones and
so on, when the skin vibrates, or the wood is touched, respond.
They enter into that layer of our consciousness which is not
logical, they are at the boundary between the conscious and the
subconscious. This subconscious contains information beyond
logic, perhaps in the soul. It is the space of the soul.
I am perhaps aware of the life of my ancestors in this
subconscious. Though my own logical thinking is very much a
luminous thinking, I believe that we see in history the growth of
logical processes at the expense of subconscious processes. So early
instruments, which did not become part of the contemporary
orchestra, also have this cloud.
IM: I see this too, for example, in Fachwerk (2009), in which the bayan is a
link between the world of non-musical sounds and the strings, which are
the traditional world of sound.
SG: Yes, yes, yes. And the sounds of the bayan lead us towards this
subconscious. It is a path, a memory of our subconscious,
containing a huge amount of information. Today one sees
everywhere that logic prevails over the subconscious. It is not
only percussion players who cover the sound, but the whole of
civilization, the entire industrialization of art leads to this logic,
which is necessary, but which leads away from this subconscious
layer.
IM: How do you see, then, the intersection of modernism that is, that whole
repertoire of modern techniques and the world of the subconscious and
the spirit to which you aspire? In other words, are all these things that
were developed during the course of the 20th century tools for arriving at
the spiritual or subconscious layer? I ask this because of the traditional
perceived dichotomy between modernism and the spiritual.
SG: I understand. This is a very deep question. I have also thought a
great deal about what this relationship represents. My feeling is
that the 20th century is very interesting from this point of view.
There was a crossing of two tendencies. One tendency arises from
logic, a desire to analyse everything, to understand everything, a
huge wave. [SG draws two intersecting arcs.] On the other hand, the
other wave is connected to the subconscious. It includes the whole
of romanticism; Schubert, Schumann, Beethoven, they all led to
the 20th century, to the desire to penetrate the subconscious. And
it happens that the 20th century is at the crossing of these two
waves. On the other hand, there are the efforts of composers who
wish to stop things, in order to understand and analyse. What is
interesting is the beginning of the 20th century in music, when
we can clearly see the rise of Stravinsky, totally connected to
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this subconscious, a way in to Ancient Russia, where the culture
is pagan. And Wagner, who was greatly criticized, pushed music
towards the state of subconsciousness. But art has to have limits.
It cannot live with total freedom. Music has to have its soul free
in order to arrive at God, it cannot be stopped. It resists being
eroded. When Schoenberg appeared, these two waves crossed
Schoenberg was quiet for eight years so that he could find this
method of limiting things.
IM: Its a way out of that excess of freedom
SG: A way out of an uncontrollable wave. Eight years in order to
limit his musical material, to formulate a law. But the wave was
so huge that the reaction was also too great for art. So from this
system composers inherited a prison, a real prison. And I see the
whole 20th century as an enigma what to do, how to reconcile
a desire to reach the subconscious and at the same time find a
way of limiting things. Personally, I found a means of limiting my
fantasy, this enormous wave from the subconscious. You may ask
if this is not a contradiction, and, yes, it is a contradiction that I
was searching for, and found in the Fibonacci sequence. When this
wave appears and is contradicted, art appears.
IM: And it is also a natural sequence (such as in the branching of trees).
SG: That is why it is so important to me; I do not go where fantasy
takes me, there has to be a law of proportion. That is how Bach
worked.
IM: In both St John Passion and St John Easter you come very close to the
liturgy of the Church. Have you ever considered writing any specifically
liturgical music? If not, can you explain why?
SG: The composition of these works were already a great drama
for me. It was very important to bring together these two texts
[The Gospel according to St John and Revelation]. I could not do
it without an orchestra and an organ. I needed all possible sonic
means to set the texts to music. Orthodox tradition does not
recognize the use of instruments, only voices. And there is the
problem. Who will win in me, the artist or the believer? The artist
won. I am not saying that it is a sin, but it is a non-liturgical work,
for concert performance and other composers also wrote not
only for the liturgy but also for concerts. I visited the Monastery
of Valaam, a very pure place, full or amazing people, priests
and monks. A starets
2
lives there, Father Vassily, a hermit. And I
managed to talk to him, and told him about this dilemma. He said
Dont worry about it. There are too many people who want to
teach everybody, many people who want to give lessons . And
perhaps from this person, on such a high spiritual level, I received
absolution.
IM: Just to finish, I am not a person on such a high spiritual level, but
personally I do not see any contradiction in following this path, and I am
speaking as both composer and priest, as you can hear in this piece.
3
But
I wanted to say that when I am asked for liturgical music, I write simply
what is necessary, and when I am working as an artist, I write in a
different way, but I see no contradiction in this.
SG: Do you use instruments in your piece?
2
A starets (literally old man) is a monastic elder, a spiritual advisor.
3
Passion & Resurrection, written in 1992, in the recording by Red Byrd and Cappella
Amsterdam, directed by Daniel Reuss, on Hyperion CDA 66999.
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IM: Yes, here, but not when I am writing liturgical music; this is a concert
piece.
SG: Its the path you mentioned to me before, the double helix.
IM: Yes! Thank you very much.
SG: Thank you very much for everything.
[I should like to extend my thanks to Sofia Gubaidulina, Hans-Ulrich
Duffek, Filipe Pinto Ribeiro and Svetlana Polyakova for making this
interview possible.]