"European Universalism Is Used to Justify Imperialism": An Interview with Immanuel Wallerstein by Olivier Doubre So iolo!

ist and historian at "ale University# Immanuel Wallerstein has des ribed the !lobali$ation of apitalism# and today he riti i$es Western "universalist" %ustifi ations of e&pansionism' European Universalism In your boo( European Universalism# you revisit the )*th+ entury debate between ,as -asas and Sepulveda on the Ameri an Indians' In what respe t does this debate seem to you parti ularly relevant to the debate on universalism. Immanuel Wallerstein: /he intelle tual %ustifi ations that Sepulveda !ave# in the )*th entury# to %ustify the on0uests of the Indian lands are# almost word for word# the same ones used for oloni$ation# and the ones that are !iven today for what is alled intervention' 1oreover# ,as -asas2 responses at that time seem to me mu h learer than many riti isms of intervention today' Sepulveda2s ar!uments were as follows: the others are barbarians# we must prote t the inno ent 3whom the barbarians massa re4 ++ onstant %ustifi ation for all interventions ++ and# finally# it is ne essary to permit the diffusion of universalism# supposedly universal values' At that time# it on erned evan!eli$ation and the e&pansion of the -hristendom' /oday# these values are "freedom and demo ra y'" 5ut they are in fa t the same thin!' Drawin! upon the wor( of 5raudel# you have elaborated on the on ept of "world+system" to des ribe the politi al and e onomi environment' What do you mean by this term. So ial s ien e analyses durin! the )6th and 78th enturies rested primarily on a unit of analysis whi h was the state# en ompassin! so iety# parti ularly with the nation state' All states e&ist in parallel with one another and follow more or less the same stru tural tra%e tory# even if some were more advan ed than others' 9or me# this formula rests on a 0uite ina urate vision' :ather# we have lived in a "world+ system" sin e the be!innin! of the ;po0ue alled modernity in the )*th entury when the apitalist e onomy was born in an embryoni form in a small part of the world# Europe' /he world is thus a unit of analysis vaster than the state' /he apitalist system has !radually su eeded# by its internal pro esses# in e&tendin! itself to the totality of the world' "ou an in fa t see that# sin e the end of the )6th entury# the whole world has been !overned by this apitalist system# to this day' Studyin! this world+system# in my opinion# ma(es it possible to enri h the approa h of so ial s ien es# by onsiderin! states as elements onstitutin! themselves within this system' 5ut they are not the only elements of the system# in whi h ra es# lasses# nations# households# et ' also e&ist' All are institutions within this apitalist world+e onomy' Above all# this on ept allows me to show that# li(e any stru ture# it has !one throu!h various phases: initially its emer!en e and establishment# then its development# finally the moment of its stru tural risis# before that of its disappearan e' I thin( that we are urrently livin! this moment of stru tural risis# and# while I won2t venture to !uess a pre ise date or time# we shall witness 3perhaps twenty+five to fifty years from now4 its disappearan e ++ or rather its repla ement by another thin!' One annot say by what# for the time bein!# but the pro ess is ine&orably movin!' <ow is your riti ism of European universalism arti ulated with this on ept of "world+ system". -onsider this world+system ++ it needs an ideolo!y# what I all a "!eo ulture#" allowin! it to %ustify its stru tural development' /his boo(# European Universalism# is thus an effort to des ribe the rhetori used by the powerful): European universalism is used to %ustify imperialism# Western e&pansionism'

Obviously# variants e&ist in sophisti ated ar!uments' The first, the most brutal (as in Iraq today), consists in saying that the others are barbarians, whom we must tame. A second variant, a little more subtle, studied by Edward Said under the name of !rientalism, claims that the others are different beings, fi"ed in their differences, to whom we must bring true civili#ation $$ an argument that one finds in Samuel %untington in &articular. 'astly, a third ty&e of argument is that of scientific truth to which one a&&eals to im&ose the (estern &oint of view. And, as it so ha&&ens, this alleged scientific truth is held by the most &owerful countries in the world) "ou observe that# in the relations within this world+system# for the powerful it is always easy to !ive but mu h more diffi ult to re eive' ' ' Indeed# the powerful do not a ept the idea that they have somethin! to re eive from others' /hey rebuff others who they thin( don2t have anythin! to offer them' 9or e&ample# =eor!e W' 5ush %ust visited 5enin: in his mind# what an he possibly re eive from 5enin. Only the United States an !ive thin!s to 5enin' /he world+system# seen from the point of view of the powerful# rests on this type of relationship amon! its members' Durin! your onferen e at the 1aison de l2Europe# on 78 9ebruary# Daniel 5ensa>d de lared: "Sin e )66)# our ;po0ue# in a way# has resembled )?@8+)?A8# i'e' a utopian moment when the possible doesn2t have a fa e yet' <en e# in the fi!ure of the alter!lobali$ation movement# the fre0uen y of the term 2Other#2 whi h is the un(nown# the indefinite'" Do you share his analysis. In my opinion# this moment did not be!in in )66) but in )6*?# when one witnessed a be!innin! of the ollapse of !reat truths established and a epted for a very lon! time' In this type of period# it is normal for people to fall into onfusion# not (nowin! what to do' Obviously# this impoten e was reinfor ed a!ain after )66)# when the Soviet Union# whi h had till then seemed immovable# ended up brea(in! down' Sin e then# it is espe ially the ,eft that has seemed at a loss for points of referen e# with a !reat deal of pessimism' <owever# I believe that today we are seein! neoliberal !lobali$ation# whi h has e&tended itself everywhere sin e then# startin! to show its limits: with the Bapatistas# So ial 9orums# Seattle# =enoa# people went ba ( to dis ussion# in sear h of new e&periments# new solutions' In 7887# I wrote an arti le in whi h I said: "/he United States has already lost its he!emonyC" At that time# people treated me as if I were ra$y# but I don2t believe I was mista(en after all: we are there# the United States is well on its way to losin! its he!emonyC /hat is why I believe that 5ensa>d is ri!ht to say that we are now in a "time of Utopia"D for my part# I would rather all it a sear h for alternatives# where one wonders "what is to be done."' ' ' It seems to me that the :i!ht# too# is in reasin!ly findin! itself in doubt# also raisin! the 0uestion "what is to be done."' ' '

Eotes ) /he subtitle of the Ameri an edition is pre isely "/he :hetori of Fower'" ,2universalisme europ;en' De la olonisation au droit d2in!;ren e# Immanuel Wallerstein# translated from En!lish by Fatri ( <ut hinson# D;mopolis# )A7 pp'# )G euros'