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ENGAGEMENT
STRATEGIES
MAGAZINE
MAXIMIZING PERFORMANCE AND PROFITS THROUGH PEOPLE

Face to Face
With Curt
Coffman

ÉManagement Guru
and Co-Author of
First, Break All the Rules,
on the Art (and Science)
of Enterprise Engagement
 Getting
Culture, Leadership, Engagement:

Close
to the Action
A revealing Q&A with Curt Coffman, author of First, Break All
the Rules – What the World’s Greatest Managers Do Differently,
on the key role of engagement in corporate culture

T
he concept of enterprise engagement – improving
corporate performance by seeking ways to engage
customers, channel partners and employees through a
comprehensive, holistic approach – may seem new to some,
but it actually has a long and well documented history. World-
renowned research firm Gallup, for instance, has been analyzing
the connection between employee engagement, customer
engagement and corporate performance since the late 1990s.
And nearly a decade ago, the Harvard Business Review reported
that “research has clearly and consistently proved the direct
link between employee engagement, customer satisfaction
and revenue growth.”

To gain a greater appreciation of that unique and historic

research perspective and better understand why engagement
has become so pervasive and important to companies around
the world, Engagement Strategies Magazine (ESM) recently
sat down with Curt W. Coffman, Senior Founding Partner of the
Coffman Organization, to discuss the past, present and future
of enterprise engagement.

ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009

%3-0ERHAPSWECANSTARTBYTALKINGABOUTYOUR
Culture, Leadership, Engagement
the customer. And probably the most significant thing
WORKWITH'ALLUPANDTHEIRRESEARCHINTHEAREAOF we learned doing that book is that customers aren’t
ENGAGEMENT loyal by nature. Customers are switchers by nature,
the reporting of the data and almost nothing on but they’re
clearly naturally
defining predisposed
the difference to have
between emotional
leadership
#OFFMAN I was with the Gallup organization for 22 ties to the people they do business with.–So
manager development. development and manager development allonce
of the
years and specifically headed up both the employee again we’ve
it’s notbeen
an attitudinal thing like customer
things talking about.
and customer
It’s my mission engagement
going forward consulting
to use the practice.
surveyAnd satisfaction. It’s the degree to which customers are
through
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create – and both before
a student of the and since – So
manager let’s get past
emotionally the survey
engaged with stuff and manipulating
the people they’re buying
Iand
havethe always been You
employee. interested in what itengaged
get employees is that creates the results and get to really
from. And that research really changed engaging thehow culture Gallup in
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helped organizations approach both their employees isn’t it? And it
jobs and, of
building foracustomers,
great culture. whatAnd creates that emotional makes
with managers, and theira lotmanagers.
of sense. That’s one good thing about
loyalty
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to bring they use.
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to where as at
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1999,
to giveourit research
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talkusto that it wasn’t
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simply
not justabout
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customers.
a year; you talk about daily feedback.
#OFFMAN Frankly, the items that we use to measure
Those are the things that will create
%3-7HATWASTHEKEYFACTORYOUR highly productive cultures today aren’t necessarily
real transformation in an organization.
RESEARCHUNCOVERED what they were 10 years ago, because employees
%3-/NETHINGTHATCOMPANIES have become more sophisticated. Employees have
#OFFMAN It was the degree to which employees were
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emotionally engaged with both their organization and
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ONENGAGEMENTISTHATWEHAVE
the customer – or with the people they did business
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with. That drove us to compile the research and write
WORKFORCESENGAGEDCUSTOMERSAND
our first book, First, Break all the Rules: What the
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PERFORMANCECREATETHEENGAGEMENT
technology, having the right
one culture that’s overriding. It has many of what I
call “little C”
#OFFMAN Well,cultures,
it’s both.which exist at the local level
We know talents to fit the job and through
and are probably made
that strong culture is definitely up of thetied
five or seven or
nine
to high performance. And engaged every day. In
people you work together with the relationships by which we
fact, an organization probably has as many “little C”
multiply our effectiveness.
employees and engaged customers
cultures as it has managers
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we
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productive which those two [cultures] are in alignment.
culture, which is really the goal. Now,
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ENGAGEMENT %3-7HYISTHATALIGNMENTSOIMPORTANT
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First, Break All the #OFFMAN This is going to be critical in the communications
next
most importantly, is the new manager SJDHDPN few months because we’re going to have group a lot of
®

Rules was Follow This Path, which really focused on Creating More Relevant Interactions
®

development strategy. And that means continued on page 42

SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 85

SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 41
 Culture, Leadership, Engagement
continued from page 41
organizations starting to emerge from this difficult
climb with a whole new set of strategies. And if you
think about it – if what keeps high-performing people
is that relationship with the manager and the alignment
of the big C and little C cultures – that’s something CEOs
have never had to think about before. Because now, their
new strategies are going to be dependent on the culture
to get them done – or, conversely, to help them fail.
%3-$OYOUHAVEANYSUGGESTIONSFORMANAGING
THOSETWOCULTURESANDKEEPINGTHEMINALIGNMENT
#OFFMAN Absolutely. Let me start with the big C. The
big C is now demanding a whole new leader. We’re
just coming out of a period where, for a number of
decades, we’ve had “in-or-out leadership.” Let me
explain that.
Draw a circle and put a dot in the middle. Let’s say
that dot is the CEO, or it’s the head of a department
The great leaders of tomorrow
are going to be those who involve
the people closest to the action.
– a leader at that big C level. Then you put dots
representing people inside the circle around that CEO,
and you also put some dots outside the circle. Now,
the greatest fear of the people within the circle would
be getting kicked outside the circle. And the greatest
fear of the people outside the circle would be never
getting in – or losing their jobs altogether.
So leaders have historically been managing
from that in-or-out leadership position, and it has
caused a fear of being kicked out, so no one will
step up and say, “Maybe it’s not a good idea to
take the corporate jet to Washington to ask for
$29 billion in aid.”
Now we’re beginning to understand that great
leadership is about collaboration – about having and
knowing when you have enough information to make
a good decision. And we know that diversity drives
great leadership. That’s the new big C.
%3-3OTHENEWhBIG#vCOLLECTSMOREINPUTFROM MANAGERINALLOFTHIS4HEMANAGERSINALLTHOSE
ALLOFTHEhLITTLE#SvnORALLOFTHEEMPLOYEESINAN hLITTLE#SvWILLHAVETOSHARETHEVISIONANDHAVEALL
ORGANIZATIONnMORESOTHANINTHEPAST THETOOLSANDSKILLSTHEYNEEDINORDERTOCREATEAN
#OFFMAN Yes. But the true test of a leader is when
they can still collect all that information without losing
42 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009
their mind. The leader of tomorrow is going to be the
leader who knows when they’ve collected enough and
they can crack off the decisions. My prediction is the
best decisions come as close to the action as possible,
and the great leaders of tomorrow are going to be
those who involve the people closest to the action to
be able to make those decisions and implement that
strategy.
%3-%MPOWERINGTHOSEONTHEFRONTLINESTOMAKE
LEADERSHIPDECISIONSONBEHALFOFCUSTOMERS
#OFFMAN Exactly. Just think of how many out-of-touch
decisions upper managers make, and the people close
to the customer can’t imagine how or why they were
made. We see that every day, and it’s demoralizing for
the customer and for the employee.
%3-7HATARESOMEOFTHETHINGSTHATMAKEUPTHE
hBIG#vANDTHEhLITTLE#vINORGANIZATIONS
#OFFMAN Our research tells us that three things make
up the big C and little C. One is growth. Either you’re
growing or you’re dying. And when we talk about
growth in the high-productive cultures we study, it
tends to be people who are striving to build growth,
not buy it.
Second is the quality of relationships within that
culture. It’s the degree to which we’re all working
together. The silos of yesterday are gone. The
protectionism of individualism is gone. We have to
have a broader purpose.
The third dimension is probably the most
controversial, but we find it in the most productive
organizations – and that is what I’d call, for lack of
a better term, a servant focus. That’s where “It’s
not about us – it’s about the people we’re bringing
products and services to and how we’re thinking
about them, and how we can better serve them.”
The customer. The marketplace. And that can apply
to internal as well as external customers. If you think
about it, that servant focus reengages the person
who has it or does it. When we’re bringing something
to somebody else, we are, in turn, receiving and
becoming more engaged.
%3-(OWIMPORTANTISTHEROLEOFTHEMIDDLE
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BIGJOB
continued on page 44
 Culture, Leadership, Culture, Leadership, Engagement
Engagement
continued from page 42

the#OFFMAN
reportingWell,
of the data
first of and almost
all, let’s get nothing on We’veclearly
definitional. thedefining
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of woodwinds,
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been treating managers as a rung on a ladder. And development their focus andis manager
that group, development
that woodwinds – all of the
group
we’ve also been treating them as leaders in waiting. things we’ve been
performing attalking about.levels and contributing to
exceptional
It’s my mission going forward to use the survey
But the role of the leader and the role of the manager, something broader.
dimension only to create a student of the manager So let’s get past the survey stuff and manipulating
we find, are very different.
and the employee. You get employees engaged the results
So weand mayget to really
actually engaging
have too many theleaders
cultureandin not
in their own learning, their own growth and
I think about it in terms of an orchestra director the your organization. It’s pretty simple,
enough straight managers. And what we need to isn’t it? And it
building of a great
– as having culture.
the focus of And
all thewith managers,
different pieces makes a lot is
realize of that
sense. That’sare
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youcoming
have totogether.
bring the learning to where they’re
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tomorrow, while managers are about research it brings youa
creating
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better today. Leaders need to prepare
not just doing a job performance evaluation once managers to be able to make the
a year; you talk about daily feedback.
TO BUILD A WORLD CLASS
Those are the things that will create
broad message more individual,
more specific and more focused.
SALES ORGANIZATION,
real transformation in an organization.
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lRST$OESTHEENGAGEMENTCREATETHE MAXIMIZING YOUR TEAM’S #OFFMAN Yes it is. And that’s where
HIGHPERFORMANCEORDOESTHEHIGH PERFORMANCE AND we’ve really missed the boat these
PERFORMANCECREATETHEENGAGEMENT TALENTS TO GET THEM last 20 years. Our research says the
SELLING MORE TODAY. concept that the customer is always
#OFFMAN Well, it’s both. We know right – that customers know exactly
that strong culture is definitely tied what they want and the form in which
TURN UNDERPERFORMERS
to high performance. And engaged they want it, for the price they want
INTO SUPER-ACHIEVERS
employees and engaged customers it – is just simply not true.
IN LESS THAN 30 DAYS.
are part of that culture. But working
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engagement component as well. We wisdom, and it’s a pretty big
TOP SALES TALENT.
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“ah-ha!” You and I as human beings
that each one drives. And the point of have needs that we can’t meet
BUILD AND MANAGE
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dimension that’s part of something vulnerable, and they don’t necessarily
bigger called a highly productive like being in that position. But we’ve
Keith Rosen: 2009 Sales Education Leader of the Year.
culture, which is really the goal. Now, been treating them like they’re always
Visit the globally recognized authority on sales and sales leadership at
within that is a new customer strategy. right – like they know exactly what
www.ProfitBuilders.com for free sales training videos, coaching tools for
And in that is a new employee
managers and podcasts. Email info@profitbuilders.com or call 516-771-1444 they want. And what we’ve done is
engagement strategy. And
for more in that,
information on this book or to contact Keith Rosen regarding his
communications
we’ve ignored the vulnerability.
group ®

most importantly, is the

sales newexecutive
coaching, manager SJDHDPN
coaching and management coach training programs.
Creating More Relevant Interactions
®

development strategy. And that means Now, think about that. When
continued on page 84
SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 85
44 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009
 Culture, Leadership, Engagement
continued from page 44

someone ignores your vulnerability, that destroys INTERMSOFNEEDSANDVULNERABILITIESnHOWDOES

loyalty. But when somebody connects to your
vulnerability, sees you as vulnerable, sees you as a
person who is coming in with needs that they can’t
meet themselves, and they connect with that, that’s
where trust and loyalty are built. It comes down to
simply trying to understand where the person is
and where they want to be.
THATDIFFER
#OFFMAN The employee’s vulnerability isn’t the
same as the customer, but there are some basic
needs that are tickets to admission. Job security is a
ticket to admission. So is being challenged by one’s
work. Feeling as though I’m fairly treated with pay
and benefits is a ticket to admission.

%3-!NDTHEDYNAMICONTHEPARTOFTHEEMPLOYEE Engagement is related to some broader issues –

like being challenged by one’s work,
feeling as if my manager really

POWER OF NICE
knows me, walking away every day
THE knowing the value that I bring to
the organization. With employees
EMPLOYEE RECOGNITION PROGRAM there’s a new need for relationship
and collaboration and diversity
because that’s the only way they’re
going to be productive. We’re not
Based on going to be more productive by
the principles working harder, we’re going to do it
developed in the through technology, having the right
talents to fit the job and through the
best-selling book,
relationships by which we multiply
this powerful our effectiveness.
recognition
program can help %3-7HICHCOMESlRSTINYOUR
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and Engagement
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t
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Learn how Linda Kaplan Thaler, CEO and Robin Koval, President built The Kaplan Thaler UNDERSTANDANDACCEPTTHENEEDFOR
Group into one of the country’s fastest growing advertising agencies by practicing The ENGAGEMENT7HATARESOMEOFTHE
Power of Nice. From start-up ten years ago to over a billion dollars in billings today OBSTACLESTOTHATUNDERSTANDING
(including the creation of the famous “Work Hard. Fly Right” campaign for Continental
Airlines and the Aflac Duck), Kaplan Thaler and Koval’s philosophy prove you absolutely #OFFMAN Well, a lot of companies
can conquer the business world with kindness. [like Gallup] – their product is a
survey. They’re out to sell a survey.
For information about how you can use And the problem is you don’t fatten
The Power of Nice Employee Recognition Program in your company,
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the cow by just weighing it every
day. There has been a lot of focus
on the survey, the data collection,

84 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009

 Culture, Leadership, Engagement

the reporting of the data and almost nothing on
manager development.
It’s my mission going forward to use the survey
dimension only to create a student of the manager
and the employee. You get employees engaged
in their own learning, their own growth and the
building of a great culture. And with managers,
you have to bring the learning to where they’re at
to give it relevancy. So you talk to managers about
not just doing a job performance evaluation once
a year; you talk about daily feedback.
Those are the things that will create
real transformation in an organization.
clearly defining the difference between leadership
development and manager development – all of the
things we’ve been talking about.
So let’s get past the survey stuff and manipulating
the results and get to really engaging the culture in
your organization. It’s pretty simple, isn’t it? And it
makes a lot of sense. That’s one good thing about
research – when you do good research it brings you
back to common sense. ESM

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And in that is a new employee
engagement strategy. And in that, communications
most importantly, is the new manager SJDHDPN group ®

Creating More Relevant Interactions ®

development strategy. And that means

SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 85