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Don't you think it's time for engineers all over the world to use the same system??

Ofcourse this must be the metric system! c-j


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tart !our "#n $ng%&ips 'roup! Click (ere! Ma* +,, +--+ &he)lacksmith (Mechanical !n many cases" ! believe the system should be governed by what the su##liers have available and what the $mechanics$ are used to% !n the &'" there are a lot of things such as bolts" rods" beams etc% that are still manufactured in (nglish units% )dmittedly" the &' school system has done a dismal job of teaching metrics - my o#inions here are no sur#rise% ! think it is the duty of the (ngineers to take the element of human failure*mistake out of the design to the ma+imum e+tent #ractical% ,hy should decide that a -*.-/0" grade 1 bolt will substitute for a 1 mm 2%2 bolt" the degreed engineer" the #urchasing agent or the guy assembling the com#onent? ! have ha##ily worked in several systems" according to the majority around me at the time to avoid confusion% 3ook at #ressure for one e+am#le4 inches of mercury" centimeters of mercury" inches of water" feet of water" bars" #ascals" atmos#heres" #ounds #er s5uare inch - de#ends on the com#onent and country you're dealing with%

6lacksmith

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./0 (Mechanical Ma* +,, +--+ !t would be nice" but until the &%'% makes the switch to metric for get it% !7m sure also that many of us are growing accustom to the im#erial system (like ! have because the majority of com#anies customer bases are in the states%

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Ma* +,, +--+ 1rad (Mechanical )merican automobiles is done in metric units% 8his has been the case for a decade% 8here are still vestiges of the (nglish system (generally found in the test laboratories and #lants" which are older and consist of older-generation workers % 9owever" #arts are designed" analy:ed" and s#ec'ed in metric% (veryone other than engineers and scientists are still kicking and screaming % % % 6rad

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post!

Ma* +3, +--+ 1utel2a (Mechanical ,hy do (uro#ean countries who try to badger the &') into metrification not fully follow their own advice% !n the #rocess industry" #ressure is often referred to in km*cm;/" not in <a" k<a" M<a" or bar? 8his is only one e+am#le of many ! have run across%

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Ma* +3, +--+ 4a5e6iking ('tructural 8he metric rules seem to be lengths given in millimeters" area loads in k<a and volume in liters% ,heee% ! think we've all been using kilo-#ounds for a long time" why change? =ow" ! will gladly switch to metric when> a kilometer is #ronounced correctly% !t's a ?!33-O-M(8(@ not a kilom-eter% b 3ength mesurement changes to )ngstroms% d Aolume is stricly given in deciliters%

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s#ertel (Mechanical Ma* +7, +--+ !'ll switch to metric when they finally get a decent thread #itch and tolerance for each thread si:e% Bine threads are too fine and course threads are too course% )nd ! still don't get the genious behind the tolerancing scheme% ! #ut 9C on a drawing and the tolerance is different de#ending on the nominal hole si:e% ,hat a <!8) to remember% )nd why do ! have to clarify between hC and 9C? !s ca#itali:ation that im#ortant on a drawing? ,hat ha##ened to being able to #rint everything in all ca#s for clarity% !'m sur#rised !'O*Metric drawing standards haven't allowed for cursive writing on the drawing face yet% '9(('9! Dend of rant%%% thanks for listeningE --'cott

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Ma* +7, +--+ (af (Mechanical <ersonally" ! #refer to #erform calculations using the '! system% ,hile the system uses metric units" there is a standard metric unit for everything" and every standard unit reduces to kilograms" meters" and seconds% ! try not to use #refi+es on anything while doing calculations (ironicly" there

is already a #refi+ on the kilogram standard" which always bothered me % 8here is less confusion that way" and ! tend to make fewer mistakes% 8he main #roblem is that this system yields unwieldy numbers% 'o" in the end" ! tend to convert the $answer$ into $convenient$ units% &sually" convenient is defined as a unit that allows for a $#retty$ number% Bor e+am#le" can you imagine an )merican bragging that their new Forvette had /G0"HH1 ,atts of #ower" instead of I10 horse#ower? Or how about an )merican who bought a house on a /0"/I. s5uare meter lot" instead of a five acre lot? !t's just not gonna ha##en! (ach industry has units associated with it that usually allow the engineers to work with $nice$ numbers" regardless of whether (nglish or metric units com#rise those units% Burthermore" those industries have used those units for so long that they have been ingrained into the culture% <eo#le begin to $get a feel$ for those units% 8he major difference is that with metric units" there is a tendency towards using #refi+es to tame numbers by factors of ten% !n the (nglish system" we show an utter disregard for the decimal system" invent a com#letely new unit" and usually try to give it a funny name% )merica has already tried to switch to metric units% 'im#ly #ut> it didn't take% Of course" at the time" #eo#le feared that switching to metric units was the first ste# towards switching to communism% Maybe now that the Fold ,ar is over" we should give it another shot? My sneaking sus#icion is that it still won't take% 9af

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(ush (Mechanical 8hings could be worse%

Ma* +7, +--+

8ry living and working in Fanada where we are caught in a eternal state of limbo between '! and !m#erial% ! listen to the morning news to find out the tem#erature in celsius while drinking a cu# of coffee% 8hen ! drive -1 kilometres to work at I0 miles #er hour where ! #erform calculations on C-*-G$ I1 M<a flange connections% On the way home ! #ick u# a litre of milk and a #ound of butter% ! think you get the #icture%

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R48 (Fivil*(nvironme 8he world is metric% !t7s just the &' (and Jemen that is not%

Ma* +7, +--+

6ecause of our #ro+imity to the &' here in Fanada we tend to use a hybrid system% &ntil our largest trading #artner joins the remainder of the world in ado#ting the most rational system of measurement" we will continue to have vestiges of the im#erial system% 8o reject the metric system because no one wants to say that they bought a /0"/I. s5 m lot demonstrates that you sim#ly do not understand measurement systems% !s the 1-acre lot e+actly 1 acres to 1 significant digits? (1%0000 ! think not% ,hy not buy a /-hectare lot instead? 8here are KniceL numbers in the metric system% My old Mo#ar ..0 is now a C%/-liter engine% Jour Forvette #uts out /G- k,% 8o have to remember a few #refi+es (many of which we already use%

9ow many Megs of @)M do you have in your com#uter" 9ow many Migahert: is the #rocessor? 9ow many kilobytes is that document file? is a lot sim#ler than remembering that an acre has .I"1G0 s5 ft or that there are -G0 o: in a gallon (im#erial not &' gallon which is only -/2 o:% or that G0 M<9 is 22 B<'% or any of a hundred different conversion factors necessary to work in the im#erial system% Jes" switching to the metric system is difficult% 8here are ingrained cultural reasons that make the conversion harder% Fanada has been using Felsius for /2 years now and there are still some radio stations that give tem#eratures in Bahrenheit% ,e should have sim#ly converted totally and not allowed soft conversions why not buy 100 g of butter instead of .1. g% ,hy are fluorescent light tubes - //0 mm long? ,hy not - /00 mm? @ick ?itson M6) <%(ng Fonstruction <roject Management Brom conce#tion to com#letion www%kitsonengineering%com

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Aton (Fivil*(nvironme Ma* +9, +--+ !n this age of calculators" s#readsheets" #rogramming" etc" in one sense it really shouldn't matter what system we use% Fonversion utilities abound% )nd #recision is sim#ly a matter of what your needed tolerances are% Fabinetmakers work to G.ths of an inch" while machinists work to thousandths (or their metric e5uivalents % 6ut> 9ush is right on when he refers to our fractured lives here in Fanada% !'m old enough to think and feel in !m#erial" but must work #rofessionally in metric% ! still don't have any intuitive feel for a length of" say" -100 mm (without first mentally translating to metres" and then on to yards each time " whereas the inch (still called $un #ouce$ $a thumb$ - in Brench " or the foot" are human-derived measures with which ! am most connected% ! can $feel$ how much a #ound weighs" but have trouble with much direct insight into kilonewtons% )nd then" of course> the concatenation of units with which we often deal (try deriving the fundamental units for s#ecific enthal#y" or for dynamic viscosity are com#le+ enough" without worrying about conversions% 8hank the e+#onents-that-be for com#uters! @D? is right when he says that switching to metric is difficult% )nd ! agree also that if we are going to switch" let's do it com#letely and never look back% !t ,O&3D be far better to live and work in only one system - whatever it is! 6ut this is not our reality here in the limbo of water that boils at two different integers% 8he real trouble for us engineers" ! think" s#rings from the danger of translation between the two systems" and the increased chance for error at that juncture% ! do not know how others handle this situation" but ! design structural systems in metric (because all our 3'D-based codes are in metric " and at the very end where necessary" ! convert to !m#erial so that contractors and su##liers can understand what it is ! am talking about% )s an aside> the study of units (and their historical beginnings from a sociological #ers#ective is fascinating in itself% 8aking a #urely intuitive a##roach" who of our not-so-distant ancestors would have ever dreamed that the fundamental units ($fundamental$ in metric" that is of mass" length" and time (two times" no less! " when combined in a certain way" would #roduce the unit of force? 8his is strange magic indeed%

'ustainable" 'olar" (nvironmental" and 'tructural (ngineering> )##ro#riate technologies for a #lanet in stress%

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Ma* +:, +--+ (af (Mechanical ,ell this certainly turned into an interesting discussion! 3et me clear u# some things% )s ! mentioned" ! #refer the metric system% !'m a recent grad" and most of the classes ! took" both as an undergraduate and graduate student" e+clusively used the metric system% =ow that !'m working" however" ! am almost forced into using the (nglish system% 6elieve me" many of the engineers and scientists in the &' would love to switch to the metric system (es#ecially the younger ones " but" as @D? #ointed out" it's tough to switch% ! must take e+ce#tion with one of @D?'s comments% )mericans understand measurement systems just fine% !n fact" one reason we can't seem to be able to kick the (nglish system is because we have been trying to use measurement systems that are understandable% )s )ton #ointed out" the inch and the foot are human-derived measurements% (veryone has seen movies with carriages drawn by horses% ,e have a feel for the #ower of one horse" or si+ horses for a stage-coach% 8o this day" when ! think of a Aette with I10 horse #ower" ! think of I10 horses #ulling that car! &nfortunately" the #rice we #ay for using human-derived measurements is ugly conversion factors% Muess you can't have your cake and eat it too% (ngineers and scientists get used to using units they have no $feel$ for% )s )ton #ointed out" almost no one has a feel for enthal#y or viscosity% Or how about entro#y or thermal conductivity? ,ho has a feel for nanometers or #icofarrads? 'ince engineers get used to working with these units" many have no 5ualms with switching to metric% )s for the rest of the country" good luck! =ow for a little story% =ot too long ago an unmanned =)') shuttle went off-course and was eventually lost in dee# s#ace% =)') engineers struggled to find the source of the #roblem" and recalculated their formulas and e5uations% !t ended u# that one systems grou# was using metric units and the other (nglish% 8hey had forgotten to convert into one language% )nd these guys were rocket scientists! 8he unfortunate reality is that there will always be different measuring systems% Des#ite this" we can ho#efully s#eak the same language in the end% 9af

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1utel2a (Mechanical 9ere is a little light hearted story that e+#lains many things%

Ma* +;, +--+

8he &' standard railroad gauge (width between the two rails is . feet" 2%1 inches% 8hat's an e+ceedingly odd number% ,hy was that gauge used? 6ecause that's the way they built them in (ngland" and the &' railroads were 6uilt by (nglish e+#atriates% ,hy did the (nglish build them like that? 6ecause the first rail lines were built by the same #eo#le who built the #re-railroad tramways" and that's the gauge they used% ,hy did $they$ use that gauge then? 6ecause the #eo#le who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons which used that wheel s#acing% Okay! ,hy did the wagons have that #articular odd wheel s#acing? ,ell" !f they tried to use any other s#acing" the wagon wheels would break on some of the old" long distance roads in (ngland" because that's the s#acing of the wheel ruts% 'o who built those old rutted roads? 8he first long distance roads in (uro#e and (ngland were built by !m#erial @ome for their legions% 8he roads have been used ever since% )nd the ruts in the roads? @oman war chariots first formed the initial ruts" which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels% 'ince the chariots were made for (or by !m#erial @ome" they were all alike in the matter of wheel s#acing% 8he &nited 'tates standard railroad gauge of . feet" 2%1 inches derives the original s#ecification for an !m#erial @oman war chariot% '#ecifications and bureaucracies live forever! 'o the ne+t time you are handed a s#ecification and wonder what horse's )ss came u# with it" you might be e+actly right" because the !m#erial @oman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses% 8hus" we have the answer to the original 5uestion% =ow the e+traterrestrial twist to the story%%%%%% ,hen you see a '#ace 'huttle sitting on it's launch #ad" there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank% 8hese are solid rocket boosters" or '@6s% 8he '@6s are made by 8hiokol at their factory in &tah% 8he engineers who designed the '@6s might have #referred to make them a 6it fatter" but the '@6s had to be shi##ed by train from the factory to the launch site% 8he railroad line from the factory had to run through a tunnel in the mountains% 8he '@6s had to fit through that tunnel% 8he tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track" %%%%% and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds% 'o" the major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced trans#ortation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass% )nd you wonder why it's so hard to make things change %%%

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(ush (Mechanical butelja"

Ma* +;, +--+

8hank you for an e+cellent (and elegant summation of the issue%

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Aton (Fivil*(nvironme Ma* +;, +--+ ,onderful tale! =ow" 89)8'' the way history should be taught! butelja" you have made my day% 'ustainable" 'olar" (nvironmental" and 'tructural (ngineering> )##ro#riate technologies for a #lanet in stress%

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Ma* +;, +--+ &he)lacksmith (Mechanical )nd !'m still confused% Many things are mis-named% 8he much used kilo-byte is actually -0/." not -000% Fom#uters are all digital - two states" on or off% 8he #o#ular numbers used in com#uters are /1G - / to the eighth #ower" 1-/" / to the ninth #ower and -0/." / to the tenth #ower% Maybe we are su##osed to have contradictory systems and numerous conversion factors% )s #ointed out" many !m#erial measurements are based on observations - horse #ower" the a##ro+imate length of a human foot" the width of a horse's behind" whereas the metric system is based on base -0" which nobody learns until they go to school% 9mmm%%% 6lacksmith

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Aton (Fivil*(nvironme Ma* +;, +--+ Jou're right" 6lacksmity> many different systems - and that's why we get the really big bucks" eh? Fanadians can't talk about a /+-/ anymore% !nstead" we are su##osed to know that it is now officially a $I2+/2G$% 6ut" at least within systems there is concerted movement toward standardi:ation% !n Medieval (uro#e" !ve read that each fiefdom (and sometimes each village within each fiefdom had its own #ole in the village s5uare% On this #ole was marked out yards" feet" and inches" etc " taken from the royal foot of a visiting local king at some time in the #ast% (ach house-wright within the village district worked to the same measure" but woe betide a tradesman from another area - his measuring tools would be useless% Of course" measures are not for everyone% Jears ago" ! hired an $e+#erienced$ car#enter to give me a hand framing% 9e was to read out lengths to me" and ! was to cut to si:e% )s ! was waiting for the first length" ! heard him mumbling to himself" and he finally called out" $(leven feet" four inches%%%and%%%seven of those tiny little lines%$ sigh% 'ustainable" 'olar" (nvironmental" and 'tructural (ngineering> )##ro#riate technologies for a #lanet in stress%

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6</ (=uclear 'orry to burst a bubble here" but %%% railway tracks>

.un 7, +--+ Brom $8ruthorBiction%com$ on the story of the width of

8his story is a $,e've always done it that way$ tale% !t says that the standard distance between railroad rails in the &%'% is four-feet" eight-and-a-half inches% ,hy? 6ecause that's what it was in (ngland% ,hy? 6ecause that's the gauge the tramways used before the railroads% ,hy? 6ecause the tramways were built using the same tools as wagon-builders and that's how wide the wagon wheels were s#aced% ,hy? 6ecause the old roads in (ngland had ruts that the wheels needed to accommodate% ,hy? 6ecause the ruts were made by !m#erial @oman chariots% 8he 8ruth> 8here is no evidence that we could find that this is true% !n an article on www%railway%org by D% Mabe Mabriel says this tale has e+isted since shortly after ,orld ,ar !! but that history does not su##ort the claims of the story% 8he @oman ruts" according to Mabriel" were not for chariots but for narrow" hand-#ulled carts% )lthough there are many #laces where the ruts are visible" Mabriel 5uestions that they #layed a role in (nglish railroad standards -.00 years after the last @oman legions% One of the claims of the e@umor is that the width of the ruts was affected by the need to make the chariot and it's wheels the same width as the combined rears of the horses #ulling them% Mabriel says there's a statue by Bran:oni in the Aatican museum that is regarded as the most accurate known de#iction of a @oman chariot% 8he two horses are wider than the chariot and the chariot wheels behind them% ,here did the four-foot" eight-and-a-half-inch standard originate? Mabriel says it was from a (nglishman named Meorge 'te#henson% Farts on rails had been used in mines in (ngland for years" but the width of the rails varied from mine to mine since they didn't share tracks% 'te#henson was the one who started e+#erimenting with #utting a steam engine on the carts so there would be #ro#ulsion to #ull them along% 9e had worked with several mines with differing gauges and sim#ly chose to make the rails for his #roject .-foot" eight inches wide% 9e later decided that adding another si+ inches made things easier% 9e was later consulted for constructing some rails along a roadway and by the time broader #lans for railroads in Mreat 6ritain were #ro#osed" there were already -/00 miles of his rails so the $'te#henson gauge$ became the standard% !nterestingly" the .-foot" eight-and-a-half inch width has not always been the standard in the &%'% )ccording to the (ncyclo#edia of )merican 6usiness 9istory and 6iogra#hy" at the beginning of the Fivil ,ar" there were more than /0 different gauges ranging from I to G feet" although the .-foot" eight-and-a-half inch was the most widely used% During the war" any su##lies trans#orted by rail had to be transferred by hand whenever a car on one gauge encountered track of another gauge and more than ."000 miles of new track was laid during the war to standardi:e the #rocess% 3ater" Fongress decreed that the .-foot" eight-and-a-half inch standard would be used for transcontinental railway% u#dated 1*I0*0/ <atricia 3ougheed
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post!

1utel2a (Mechanical 8echnically su#erior to my answer" but not nearly as entertaining%

.un 7, +--+

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.un 7, +--+ (ush (Mechanical Fall me gullible but !'m still not going to com#letely discount bujela's tale until someone actually finds some old cart ruts and measures them" if for no other reason than it makes me smile% 6esides" for all we know 'te#henson measured some ruts on his way to work that morning% ! also seem to remember something about the @omans (or was it the Fhinese setting a standard wheelbase for the em#ire to ensure their armies could move easier (of course my brain has been known to occasionally create a 'fact' to su##ort a #et theory %

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iagu* (Mechanical .un ,-, +--+ ! design in english units because ! have a feel for them% My co-worker from Mermany converts my answers to metric" so he can understand them% ! convert his answers to english units% ,e create our drawings in metric units% 8he machinist on the sho# floor recalculates the dimensions on the drawing to inches because his measuring devices are in inches% ! guess we will all be metric when time is measured in units of -0%

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Richard= (Aisitor .un +;, +--+ 8his is a very interesting discusion" and ! #articularly like butelja's take on the matter" though that may only be becuse ! am half drunk% ! am a Fanadian electrician" who is having a bit of an identity crisis% 8he code book ! follow is slowly converting to metric4 the most recent version gives all dimensions in metric" followed by im#erial in brackets for those of us who still think in inches% eg -000mm (IG$ % !t isn't an e+act science > % ,hen ! order wire from the wholesaler" it's in meters% ,hen ! figure how much wire !'ve used on a service call it's in feet% 8he #roject !'m currently on gives the arcitectural dimensions in metric" and the electrical engineer has mostly followed suit" but not always% 'o" ! have a light that is centered between two doorways" /G00mm a#art" and H'2$ off the ground% !'m not sure if there is any #oint to this story" but it should show that with a bilingual ta#e measure ! am #ertectly comfortable working in any unit #eo#le throw at me" and ! don't think twice about it% !f #eo#le can fluently s#eak more than one language" why shouldn't they do the same with numbers?

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6</ (=uclear Mood comment @ichardC% <atricia 3ougheed

.ul +, +--+

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peed* (Mechanical .ul 3-, +--+ Of course there is the issue of safety also% <eo#le are less likely to make mistakes when they are 'singing from the same hymn sheet'% !'ver heard a few horror stories such as a ground crew #utting the wrong amount of fuel on a #eo#le carrier because they mistook metric with im#erial% '#eedy

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Cor*<ad (Materials My reasons for universal use of '! units>

.ul 3,, +--+

- #ound-mass*#ound-force is the worst abomination ever used in an engineering field% / kilogram mass can be directly linked to the #eriodic table and atomic masses% I the link between electromagnetism and mechanics - how would one use inches and #ounds with volts" am#s" etc%?

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.ul 3,, +--+ (af (Mechanical !n an earlier #ost" ! mentioned the loss of a =)') s#ace #robe (turns out it was worth N-/1 million % Bor more information on that disaster" and many of the interesting news#a#er articles that ensued" try going to htt#>**www%fas%org*mars*HH-002-mars/0%htm !nterstingly" many of these articles blast the &%'% for not converting to metric% !n the same article" they blast the =)') and 3ockheed engineers for making such a stu#id mistake (i%e%" not

converting into one system or the other % !n my mind" that mistake is much more stu#id than the &' refusing to switch to metric% )nother interesting site defends the &''s use of the (nglish system> htt#>**members%aol%com*trwstrong*metric%htmlO8!M( (njoy" 9af

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a1eltio (Mechanical Aug :, +--+ (ngineers are" a+iomatically and at least> closet-trekkies %%% therefore we all know where we going regarding measuring systems% 3ive long and #ros#er! PP** QRST (8his #retended to be the Aulcan greeting % =ow" the amount of information that has to change (s#ecially road signs" ma#s" scales" etc%%% is so humongous that nobody is willing to acce#t the cost% )lso" the &' version of the im#erial units is called 'td% e%g% the im#erial gallon is different from the &' gallon%%%why this does not sur#rise us? o- (smiling cyclo#

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< $ (!ndustrial

Aug ;, +--+

6eware the non-standardi:ation even within an e+isting system% ! once encountered difficulties with installing new" fabricated in #lace" brake lines on a vehicle that ! was restoring% !t seems the number of threads #er millimeter on the vehicle (Merman were different from the number on the tool used for the lines (english even though both were fine #itch threads! =ot wanting to subject myself to leaking brake lines" ! had to search out the correct com#onents for connecting the lines to the vehicle%

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(a*den (Mechanical Aug +-, +--+ Does anyone know of any good #ubliclications like the machinery handbook in metric?

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6</ (=uclear 9ayden

Aug +3, +--+

! have Frane's 8echnical <a#er .-0 $Blow of Bluids$ in metric (and english % !t's available on their web site% <atricia 3ougheed

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dougholmes (Mechanical Aug +3, +--+ ,hen ! read the story of the =)') s#ace #robe being mis-directed" it sounded like one com#any was giving data about the characteristics of the e5ui#ment they su##lied (a thruster" ! believe % )nother organi:ation was using that data to com#ute how long the thrusters were to be o#erated to tweak the course as the craft made its way out to the target #lant% 6y the time the craft was near the #lanet the course was too far off for the limited #ower in the thrusters to correct the course% 8he $how much thrust does this device generate$ was given as a number with no units of measure attached% (like> thrustT/C 8he other grou# seems to have assumed that the unit of measure was metric but in reality" it was (nglish or !m#erial or &' or whatever name is most #o#ular at the time% 8he #roblem is that a number without units of measure attached means nothing% !t has no meaning in the world of #hysical objects or #henomena% 'o the @()3 #roblem was not that one #arty was using one system of measurement and the other was using another system" but that the first grou# su##lied a number without a unit of measure and the second grou# didn't D(M)=D that the unit of measure be su##lied% 8hey just assumed something% 'ome time ago" the owner of a com#any ! worked for had this little saying% >4on?t assume an*thing, @@@> (and at this #oint he would have already written A AM$ on the chalk-board > @@@ 1ecause #hen *ou do @@@ > (then he drew slashes on both sides of the $&$ in the word - )''*&*M( > @@@ *ou make an A out of A and of M$!>

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etch (Mechanical ep +, +--+ ,ell here in the &? you can see some beautiful drawings designed to confuse" i have seen many

drawings marked in both Metric and im#erial" now thats confusing% ,hen i was at school" i was taught only metric measurements"because we were told that the whole world worked in metric and we had to learn the new standard" and when i left to start an a##rentishi# you could see in the training centre about -00 faces in total blankness as the training officer s#oke about inches and I*-2ths% 'o it just goes to show that what academia want and what industry gives are two different #oles%

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4or*an (Mechanical My car runs 1I stonethrows a mug diesel% > ,e must acce#t that engineering is a multi-cultural environment% !t's just like understanding different languages%

Bo5 C, +--+

! ho#e that we are all smart" reasonable and #atient <(O<3( (! here% )nd that we can easily deal with it% - #eace" Doryan

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Bo5 C, +--+ austim ('tructural ! do ho#e some-one buries a co#y of this thread in a time ca#sule somewhere% !t should be good for some raucous laughter in about 10 year's time% Mind you" the designers*builders of the 8ower of 6abel have a lot to answer for in establishing so many different systems of units around the globe% 8here are some beautifully fallaceous arguments for maintaining a status 5uo to be found in this one thread% eg $the amount of information that has to be changed is humungous%%%that nobody is willing to acce#t the cost$% 6ut some countries ha5e acce#ted the cost% 9aving made the conversion" it didn't seem any big deal in )ustralia (where" sur#risingly we do have road signs and ma#s etc % Mranted" #i#e fittings and the like largely remain non-metric" but they are not generally nicely 'im#erial' anyway (other than threads*inch" how many of the thread dimensions are good looking numbers in either inches or mm? 'imilarly wire gauges" which have always been a total mystery to me anyway% <ersonally ! find dynamic calculations very much sim#ler in the '! system% )ll ! need to bear in mind is the definition of a =ewton force (the force which accelerates a mass of - kg by m*sec;/ " and all is clear% =o more having to remember the nicety of #ounds" #oundals" slugs" the gravitational constant or whatever%

!" like many others of my age" went through a #eriod of wondering what on earth my design calculations in '! units really meant" and whether the results were reasonable% (,hen ! first read '=ewton' in technical #a#ers" ! was inclined to believe that it referred to a =ew ton - yet another sort of ton" to go with the long" short and metric tons ! % 6ut that #assed 5uite 5uickly" and ! would hate to have to return to im#erial units again% )nd for those who hanker for 'human derived units' - what would be more 'human' than to name the '! force unit after the 'inventor' of gravity" and make it e5ual to the weight of a 6ritish 'tandard )##le? ()bout -0 to the kilogram" .%1 to the #ound

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Duark (Mechanical Fheers )ustim!

Bo5 9, +--+

8hat was brilliantly #ut% ! liked" #articularly" the time ca#sule thing% !ndeed time unit is invariant to any system of units (although ! know some units other than hours" minutes and seconds but they are not in vogue now % 6ut are you soothsaying common units in coming 10 years? ! totally agree with your #oint on threads and wire gauge% 6ut disagree with 'invention' of gravity" for before that too" #eo#le never used to fall down(? on earth(oh no! can't e+actly make my #oint )nyhow ! vote for '! units% ! wish you a ha##y retirement life% (! read it in one of your other (great #osts @egards" @e#etition is the foundation of technology

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penciltip (Mechanical Bo5 =, +--+ !t must be a difficult issue when going down to details because some #roducts are design and develo#ed in &' and manufactured over seas% 8he jobs done in &' have to go for english units because most vendors are in this systems% 6ut the #roduction over-seas usually use !'O systems% 8he e+changes between two systems sometimes causes terrible #roblems not only in accuracy but in #arts su##lies% Furrently" we are using dual-dimension systems% 'ooner or later" we have to face the globle-village situation% Bor now" it is just in transition between%

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CliffA/ (Mechanical 4ec +-, +--+ ,O," ! have enjoyed reading this thread and wish to add my bit to the time ca#sule% )s a teacher of engineering to entry level students" a##rentices and Di#loma students for -1 years ! can vouch for the sim#ler metric system% ) -0 base is easier for students to follow" with a system of #refi+'s and by the use of engineering notations (Uve and -ve and kee#ing their answers to within - and -000 also makes for nice looking figures% ,e still mention im#erial however" here in )ustralia" because many countries still su##ly machinery and e5ui#ment to this standard% 8he generation ga# in some worksho#s still hear the older tradesman telling the a##rentice to make it a few thou(im#erial over the /1mm si:e to allow for a #ress fit% 8he duo##oly of systems has lead to catastro#hic outcomes and surely it is about time the engineering industry united to say $Metrics the ,ay - nothing else from this day!$ /et?s sa*, .an ,, +-,- to gi5e us fair #arning!

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o#g (Fhemical 4ec +-, +--+ !t would be a great service to the ,orld if some #erson or agency could convince us all use the same unit system% !t will likely ha##en a few centuries after world government is established% My doctor said ! should take a thousand milligrams of vitamin F #er day% ! said isn't that the same as a gram? 9e wasn't sure%

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1rad (Mechanical !'ll throw in two good stories about units #roblems--

4ec +3, +--+

,hile travelling from Michigan to =ew Jork (which all Michiganders know takes one through Fanada " we left the &' at /2 degrees% )s we switched to listen to a Fanadian radio station" my wife remarked how much colder it had a##arently gotten in the last few hours" as the tem#erature had #lummeted to -/% ('he figured out her mistake when ! about lost control of the car laughing % ,hile working at O#el" ! was on the <roving Mround and a Merman engineer showed me a #aved ram# (often #roving grounds have ram#s at various angles for a variety of tests % 8he ram# was clearly not in use% 9e e+#lained to me that they got the s#ec's from the &' and diligently converted the length of the overall ram# from meters to units% 'omebody overlooked converting the height (from inches*ft rise*run " and ended u# building the ram# in inches*meter (thinking it

was cm*meter % )fter the meticulous construction was done" their slo#e was off by -*/%1.% 8hey decided to leave it that way as a cautionary tale % % % 6rad

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doc,, (Meotechnical 4ec +3, +--+ !'ll through my / cents worth in on this one too% !f !'m not mistaken the &' government offically ado#ted the metric system over -00 years ago% !ts the &' businesses that are dragging their feet% Most of us here would be willing to acce#t the change" e+ce#t for the cost% ! #ersonally #refer working with base -0" the math is much easier% (ventually we will all be working with the same set of numbers" but that will #robably take another 10 to -00 years% =ow for the funny stuff" My wifes 8oyota has a standard oil drain #lug" My Fhevrolet has a metric oil drain #lug so does my Bord% 8he 8oyota was built in the &'" the Fhevrolet in Fanada" and the Bord in Me+ico% 8he 'cu#' of coffee ! bought on the way to work this morning held /. ounces" thought it also could have held -/" -G or /0 ounces also%

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o#g (Fhemical 4ec +7, +--+ ! was changing a wheel on the )laska highway last year and was attacked by a killer #ascal%

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4ec +9, +--+ tress'u* (Mechanical ,ell" !'ll offer this much% !'m only G years out of college and !'m much more comfortable with (nglish units that metric% (nglish units are based on $real$ things where metric seems to be #retty arbitrary% ! can walk down a line and get a #retty good estimate of how many feet !'m dealing with% ! can't do that with meters% ! can see where students would have an easier gras# of metric in college" after all" those are all arbitrary #roblems and a student w*o e+#erience doesn't really have a feel for what the numbers mean% !s /0"000 lbs*in a lot? !s - kilo#ascal a lot? ! know those answers now" but -0 years ago" they were just numbers% )nd" ! doubt that the &' government ado#ted metric at any time" much less -00 years ago% !f that were the case" all the road signs" #articularly on the interstate highway system" would have had kilomter markers instead of mile markes% (dward 3% ?lein

<i#e 'tress (ngineer 9ouston" 8e+as )ll o#inions e+#ressed here are my own and not my com#any's%

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4ec +9, +--+ RI&electric ((lectrical !n truth" #racticality and feasibility will determine our future course with this matter" as they should% 8here will not be a need to switch the &%'% to metric until it can be incontrovertibly shown that the benefits of such a change will outweigh the costs (nickels #er slug? % '#eaking of which" there's another discre#ency between nations that hasn't yet been resolved" and ! contend that it's because the discre#ency doesn't need to be resolved> we have different money all over the world" yet we transact international business with nary a glitch" because everyone is used to accomodating for the differences in monetary value between nations% ! say the #eo#le who are worried about conducting business with the &%'% have as much valid need for concern about measurements as they do about being over*under#aid for goods and services e+changed% 'eeing as how many different nations do business in the world today" and that there is a different e+hange rate between every two that use different currency" )=D that those rates change over time" it seems trivial to me that the static set of conversions between (nglish and '! is such a burden% 3et those who work with their own units continue to work with their own units" in the interest of #ursuit of 5uality (which is" ! think everyone will agree" the fundamental #ur#ose of engineering % 8his brings be back to my initial #oint> ,here the world stands today" there will be no crucial benefit to either #arty if the &nited 'tates switches to metric% !f the rest of the interested world is willing to risk #oorer #roduct from the &%'% until it finishes the #otentially lengthy adjustment" then go ahead and #ursue the change%%% but there are enough level-headed #eo#le in the &%'% to reali:e it is not a worthwhile task" and ! wouldn't e+#ect much more adjustment than has already been made% 8he solution to this #roblem" in my mind" is to overcome the #erce#tion of a #roblem% !f someone needs a unit converted" then convert it% !t is far sim#ler than abandoning a #erfectly good system for those accustomed to using it%

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doc,, (Meotechnical 'tressguy My mistake" it was -HC1% Fheck out the link below htt#>**lamar%colostate%edu*Vhillger*#olicy%htm

4ec +9, +--+

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RI&electric ((lectrical )nother thought about the last sentence of my #revious thread>

4ec +=, +--+

!f an engineer was #resented with two #ossible solutions to a #roblem" one com#licated and one sim#le" and there was no solid #roof that one solution was more com#lete than the other%%% which would he choose to im#lement if he was a good engineer?

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4ec +=, +--+ tress'u* (Mechanical 8hanks for the link" doc--% 'till" when they start changing the road signs to be in kilometers for distances and k#h for s#eed" then !'ll believe that the government is serious about metric% (ven when they do" !'ll still be having to make the conversions to figure out how fast !'m driving and how far !'ve got to drive% !f this &'M) wants to get serious about bringing metric to )merica" they're going to have to do it through the media% =ever once have ! seen a weatherman on any 8A station give out the weather data in anything by (nglish units% !f the news stations were to start using dual units in their re#orting" with say" the ne+t three years listing (nglish*Metric and then switching to Metric*(nglish" in about -0 years" you might have enough #ublic awareness to #ut the (nglish units away% (dward 3% ?lein <i#e 'tress (ngineer 9ouston" 8e+as )ll o#inions e+#ressed here are my own and not my com#any's%

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o#g (Fhemical 4ec +:, +--+ <lant e+#erience has shown that the dual units a##roach does not work% Jou need to switch cold turkey and #lan on losing a generation along the way% 8he good news is that most old #eo#le will just drive faster when they see that the s#eed limit has been raised to -00% 8his benefit tends to offset the fact that they no longer no how to buy food or tell the tem#erature%

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$scher ('tructural .an C, +--3 ! always thought that the im#erial system was a better system es#ecially when using units to the base -/ (inches and #oundQcurrencyS % !t was easy to divide things between #eo#le for barter for instance (-+-/" /+G" I+. %%% but now we have grown beyond that using mathematics as a tool for many as#ects of life% ,e have ado#ted a base -0 for our counting so it is logical to ado#t a base -0 for our units (including money % !f we had a choice ! would vote for a number system either binary or doudecimal (-/ and from that would evolve the units% 6ut what advantage would that give in the conversion%%%it would never ha##en% Wust like the cam#aign to have -I months in a year (each month with /2 days%%% each month starting on 'unday %%your birthday always on the same day of the week %%%%!t will =(A(@ ha##en% ,e are stuck with decimal so currency and units should be base -0% 6y the way ! come from )ustralia where we have been through decimialisation in both currency and units in my lifetime% Onwards to the ne+t big ste#%%% which side of the road should we drive or how to divide a circle%%% IG0" .00" radians" -00 or?% (scher

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MA $! (Mechanical (ngineers are 'cientists% ,e should use '! units for our work and be fluent in them%

.an C, +--3

,e should also be able to s#eak to who we have to" and be able to e+#lain what we want to whomever we want% ,hich we should also learn to s#eak / or I languages other than our native language% ,e should be able to solve any #roblem given any units% '! units should be our #referred system and the one we encourage our children to learn and the system for all government #rojects and those #rojects who combine the talents of members from multi#le nations% !t is the only thing that makes sense% !f we are waiting for someone to lead us%%%who do think it is going to be? ,e are the leaders!

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o#g (Fhemical .an 9, +--3 (scher - One you have '!'ed the circle and #ointed a few rockets in the wrong direction" you will be ready for the '! clock and calendar%

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$scher ('tructural .an =, +--3 Owg - ,e have s#lit u# the circle into IG0 degrees basically since the 'umerians ado#ted a base G0 and as surveyors we s#lit u# the degrees by further G0 subdivisions (minutes and again (seconds % ,e re#eat this in organi:ing time (seconds and minutes again % 'o there could be an argument for base G0% ,hich way to face the rockets? ,ell ! hear that many military use the grads (.00 to a circle which is all a foreign language to me%

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MA (scher"

$! (Mechanical

.an =, +--3

Met familiar with gradients" radians" degrees" minutes" seconds" vectors% )s an engineer" you are res#onsible to know these things% )ll it would take is -*/ a day with a good book - now what's so hard about that? Jou may argue" $my e+#ertise is 'tructural$% 6ecause that is true does not negate one's res#onsibility to the #rofession to at least be casually familiar with units used in other genre of the same #rofession% Fome on" we are engineers" we are su##osed to be smart" let's at least start acting like it%

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tress'u* (Mechanical Massey"

.an =, +--3

(ngineers are not scientists% 'cientists do research w*o care or consideration for what to do with the knowledge% (ngineers use that knowledge to create useful stuff and solve #roblems% ! would resent being called a scientist% )n engineer who says he can solve any #roblem is lying" or dilusional and should not be trusted% )nd" why is it that we must all get behind this universal language of '! units" yet we must all learn other languages to s#eak% !f we're all su##osed to line u# behind '!" why not a universal s#oken*written language as well?

! must confess" your two #osts in this thread look like some #retty odd ramblings to my eye% (dward 3% ?lein <i#e 'tress (ngineer 9ouston" 8e+as )ll o#inions e+#ressed here are my own and not my com#any's%

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MA 'tressMuy"

$! (Mechanical

.an =, +--3

8hanks for your review% ! do tend to ramble% ! think a universal written s#oken language would be great% ,e are #art way there with (nglish% <retty soon we can finish the tower of 6abel% )ny takers on who gets to be =imrod%

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.an :, +--3 1rad (Mechanical ,here do ! sign u# for the (s#eranto class? > 6ut seriously" we are arguing semantics as to whether or not engineers are scientists% ,e do a##lied science% )s to the statement that $scientists do research without care or consideration for what to do with the knowledge$" ! have known many the engineering academic for whom the same could be said% ()nd conversely the $scientist$ who would bristle at the suggestion that this statement a##lies universally to his field ! agree with Massey that we should all be casually familiar with all sets of units% ! would also e+#ect that anybody with a formal engineering education in 6ritain or &' already is casually familiar% 6rad

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$scher ('tructural .an ;, +--3 Massey" ! was rambling about grads (an angular measure not gradient (a slo#e akin to the 8an of the angle % !t seems all those years at school learning about #ennyweights" bushels" rods" guineas X

fathings" chains" gram" litres (liters" see ! can at least s#ell another language reams" 5uires" &' gallons" 68&7s" calories and short ton were all not in vain as my s#readsheet converter cannot handle many of these% Fan anyone out there tell me why there were -00 links in a chain? !t seemed like 5uite a sensible (land measurement unit to me%

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MA $! (Mechanical !'m not sure if this answers your 5uestion but> - mile T 2 furlongs or - furlong T -*2 of a mile 8here are -0 chains in a furlong 8here are -00 links in a chain 8hat makes 2000 links to a mile 8hese are all e+act so - link T %GG feet e+actly%

.an ;, +--3

Fom#ared to most of our other (nglish units of measurement these are #retty easy to remember% !t is almost even intuitive% ! know this doesn't directly your 5uestion but at least all the numbers are non-fractional which would have been very convenient to use given the time they were invented%

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MA $! (Mechanical !n case you are still wondering about grads> htt#>**mathforum%org*library*drmath*view*12.0.%html e+#lains sim#ly that in a H0 degree angle there are -00 grads% .00 grads #er circle%

.an ;, +--3

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o#g (Fhemical .an ;, +--3 (scher - -00 links in a chain a##ears to be early use of the metric system by surveyors to make the math easier% 8ry to think of a contra#tion to make your life easier4 do your survey work faster and with more #recision% )fter all a G%1' wooden stick is very cumbersome in the countryside% One of these sticks was called a #erch" it has also been called a #ole or a rood and most recently in the &nited 'tates" a rod% 8he answer came in the form of a metal chain% 8he first -G%1' chain with one hundred links came about in (ngland around -G/0% 'hortly thereafter an (nglish inventor and mathematician named

(dmund Munter designed a more useful $chain$% Munter" being number-oriented" devised a system of land measurement around his $chain%$ One <erch T /1 links T -G%1 feet% Bour <erches T a chain of -00 links T GG feet% 20 chains T one (nglish mile T 1/20 feet% -0 s5uare chains T one acre T .I" 1G0 s5uare feet% 8his system worked very well in early )merica with the vast e+#anses of land to be surveyed% 6ecause of these vast e+#anses acreage was easy to com#ute% Wust multi#ly length times width in chains and links (-*-00th of a chain to obtain the number of s5uare chains% 8hen move the decimal #oint to the left one digit for the amount of acres% (+am#le> /0%G2 chains + .0%-C chains T 2I0%C/ s5% chains or 2I%0C/ acres% -00' (ngineers Fhain Made by Fhesterman - 'heffield" (ngland circa late -200's -00 o#en links" / rings #er link" - swivel" 0%-G$ wire" cast brass handles" not adjustable% 8ally tags at U*- -0" /0" I0" .0 and center on side rings% )nother advantage of Munter's chain was his system of counting links% ) round brass tag was #laced at the center 10 link mark % )nd from each end every -0 links were marked with a brass tag and #ointed fingers to match the number of -0 link increments% ,ell" you asked%

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o#g (Fhemical .an ;, +--3 <erha#s we should defer the changing of all &' road signs to '! units% )t some #oint in time they will be obsolete since s#eed limits will be available on board based on M<'% 3ooking to the side of the road and s#otting an occasional road sign is a #rimitive method of s#eed control% !n Fanada" as #art of a concerted effort to run u# a massive debt" we converted all our road signs% 8hese road signs will be an interesting feature for tourists to smile at" just like the milestones at the roadside in (ngland% ! haven't s#otted any meterstones but ! will watch out for them% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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flame ('tructural ,-, +--3 8he best thing ! like about metric is that - cubic meter of water weighs -000 ?g! )nd.an considering value of acceleration due to gravity is go close to -0 (H%2- actual it makes it -0 ?=% !ts like magic!!

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post!

o#g (Fhemical .an ,-, +--3 )ccording to this site> htt#>**www%e+%ac%uk*cimt*dictunit*dictunit%htmOstandards the following rules a##ly to the use of numbers in the '! 'ystem% $8o make numbers easier to read they may be divided into grou#s of I se#arated by s#aces (or half-s#aces but =O8 commas% 8he '! #referred way of showing a decimal fraction is to use a comma (-/I".1G to se#arate the whole number from its fractional #art% 8he #ractice of using a #oint" as is common in (nglishs#eaking countries" is acce#table #roviding only that the #oint is #laced O= the line of the bottom edge of the numbers (-/I%.1G and =O8 in the middle%$ 8here seems to be no #re-set way of setting u# (+cel to use this system" although Bormat" Fustom" can handle it% Do '! fans use this system or just ignore it% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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$R6"CAM ('#ecifier*@egul .an ,,, +--3 9ow many com#anies do you know that did this when they converted to metric? 8hey took their english dims" say there was a #art that was I%C1 inche long" it is now H1%/1mm% ! am getting use to working in metric in the Motion Fontrol world% 8he #roblem is that every customer seems to work in different units% in" ft" mm" cm" m%%%%% one mfg list s#ecs in kg-m;/" then ne+t in kg-cm;/" the english in lb-in-sec;/ and o:-in-sec;/%%%%% 8his is why all of us need that 100 #age book full of unit conversion tables% !n Motion Fontrol" when some one asks for a IG$ stage" they get H00mm (I1%.I inches % ! see this a lot too> Mive me I00mm of travel and (nglish mounting holes% !'m sure the state #atrol would love it" changing all the signs to metric% )ll of us going -00 m#h when we are su##ose to be going G1 m#h (-00 km*hr % Fameron )nderson - 'ales X )##lications (ngineer )erotech" !nc% - www%aerotech%com $Dedicated to the 'cience of Motion$

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$scher ('tructural .an ,+, +--3 owg ,ith regard to road signs" ! was in !reland the other month and many distance signs are Metric and some still im#erial% 8he Metric are white on green" !m#erial black on white%

=o #roblem in the small 8oyota hire car ! was driving% )ll the dis#lay was 3(D%%% s#eedometer" odometer" tri# com#uter%%%%and there was a handy button which allowed you to switch backwards X forwards4 metric or im#erial as you feel inclined% Of course you had to remember the s#eed limit (#osted in metric so Metric was my #referred o#tion es#ecially in s#eed :oned areas% ,hile ! had no #roblem driving cars with im#erial s#eedos for about 2 years after we converted ()ustralia " it seems like a good marketing #loy for vehicles that may be taken to different countries% )nother innovation (to me was a big trans#arent sign on the windscreen reminding you on which side of the road you should be driving% Of course the steering wheel was securely mounted on the right%

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R48 (Fivil*(nvironme O,M Jou can change the settings for number format for all windows a##lications%

.an ,+, +--3

Fontror #anel then regional settings and #ut in the number" date and currency formats that you need% @ick ?itson M6) <%(ng Fonstruction <roject Management Brom conce#tion to com#letion www%kitsonengineering%com

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<)road (Mining Fe1 ,-, +--3 3iving Fanada ! have long acce#ted &' or !m#erial gallons which ever the design called for% 6ut if &' does not use !m#erial what does it use" and by the way (nland uses (mostly metric not $(nglish$% 8he one ! find hardest in &' is why re#ort metal #roduction (such as co##er in million #ounds*yr% ,hy not tons% ! see there is now a move to u#date this to millions of kg*yr again why not tonnes% Wust for one last confusion% !n (uro#e they don't use decimal #oints but a decimal comma% 'o ne+t time you see - /I."1G$ it might not be a ty#o" comme il faut%

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Fe1 ,,, +--3 MA $! (Mechanical One sure to convert the unconverted from 'english' to metric units is to have them take 'Dynamics' class in college% )fter a few attem#ts trying to calculate accelerations using 'slugs'" almost everyone converts original information to metric units% 8hen if the answer is re5uired in 'english' units" it is converted from the 'metric' answer obtained working the #roblem in usable units% 'lugs is a good name as it is indicative of engineers who are too stubborn or 'sluggish' to use the only international system of units that makes sense to use%

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o#g (Fhemical Fe1 ,,, +--3 @D?" thanks for the ti# on using Fontrol <anel% ! guess ! was not thinking outside of the bo+% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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uppili,, ((lectrical Fe1 ,3, +--3 )s a su##lier to many automotive industries some times we come across funny drawings%One major &' auto com#any the drawings are in metrics and suddenly we get another #rint which are all in inches one has to look for clerks table to understand what it means%the biggest #roblem is for the us com#anies only because most of the standard #arts for the com#onents all over the world are in metric system and it is im#ossible for the &' com#anies to get some standard ittem which is non metric%for e+am#le the standard shaftat could be 2mm diameter and the other mating #arts you can easily get to match that%8his is not the case otherwise and one has to ultimately turn to metric system since majority of the su##lies to &' are from countries like china are metric based%

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ro1,+:3 (Mechanical Fe1 ,:, +--3 )s (scher mentioned" here in !reland the signage is in kilometers(this crossover has been going on for the #ast number of years and is not yet fully com#lete % 9owever" the s#eed limit signs are in miles #er hour and continue to be this way% ! think" (scher" you had a leisurely drive around the country if you believed the s#eed limit signs were in metric% )nother e+am#le" myself and a friend of mine" who is from 'outh )frica entered a -0km road race about two years ago in 3imerick% )ll the adverts and #re-race #ublicity talked of a -0k road race% ,hen he got to the '1' marker" he thought his #erformance on the day was very #oor" so he started to u# the #ace% 'oon afterwards" he saw the finishing line%%%%%yes" the markers were in miles!!!

Jes" it's a funny old world%%%

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ro1,+:3 (Mechanical Fe1 ,:, +--3 )s (scher mentioned" here in !reland the signage is in kilometers(this crossover has been going on for the #ast number of years and is not yet fully com#lete % 9owever" the s#eed limit signs are in miles #er hour and continue to be this way% ! think" (scher" you had a leisurely drive around the country if you believed the s#eed limit signs were in metric% )nother e+am#le" myself and a friend of mine" who is from 'outh )frica(metric system is in #lace there on infrastructure entered a -0km road race about two years ago in 3imerick% )ll the adverts and #re-race #ublicity talked of a -0k road race% ,hen he got to the '1' marker" he thought his #erformance on the day was very #oor" so he started to u# the #ace% 'oon afterwards" he saw the finishing line%%%%%yes" the markers were in miles!!! Jes" it's a funny old world%%%

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&echnochicken (Mechanical Fe1 +C, +--3 ,ell" for those of us in Fanada (and anywhere else%%% that have to live with both &' and metric systems and may have trouble with conversions" here's a little tool to hel# out% www%onlineconversion%com

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' C (Mechanical 3et me add my favourite to this interesting discussion> Measure in micrometres" mark with chalk" cut with an a+e 4 #s> as you see ! favor metric%%% (using -*-Gth of an inch is killing me!!! M'F

Mar 7, +--3

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kmacs*s (Fivil*(nvironme Mar 7, +--3 ! agree with many that believe that the metric system is sim#ly easier to navigate (calculating volumes of concrete" M+M+M thickness easily gives you a volume" ! worked in 'outh )frica as an engineer and it was much easier than in the &')% ! do concur with the mindset of )mericans with

their s5 in" s5 ft" acres" cubic yards etc% as a way of $mentally knowing the si:e" volume" etc%$" this will not go away anytime soon" unless the &' gov't" as in other countries merely insist legally the use of metric% ! don't see this ha##ening soon%

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2m# (!ndustrial Mar :, +--3 Bor some time fluid density meter manufacturers used the '! convention to e+#ress accuracy% e%g% U*-0%-kg*mI% 8hen came the day the coriolis mass meter manufacturers decided to target the density measurement market% )s mainly american manufacturers they decided to 5uote not lbs*ftI as they usually did but to use g*cc% e%g% U*-0%0001g*cc% Bor some reason end users seemed to think U*-0%0001g*cc was more accurate than U*-0%-kg*mI so then the density meter manuafacturers had to follow suite and now 5uote U*-0%000-g*cc e+ce#t for fiscal metering where they may still 5uote kg*mI% )nd who said its easy enough to convert between one system and another? what ha##ened to the 9ubble telesco#e?

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Mar ,-, +--3 MA $! (Mechanical ! for one do not believe the hubble or mars #robe errors are due to conversion errors% ! an not generally given to cons#iracy theories" but ! do not buy into scientists and engineers making conversion errors or forgeting to convert or whatever%

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2m# (!ndustrial Mar ,-, +--3 Fons#iracy theories? ! don't believe i made any mention fo such% ! was talking about being creative*imaginative with the figures ($lies" damned lies and statistics$ sound familiar to you? % Jou are #robably right about 9ubble though" and though the 9ubble news centre doesn't e+actly give anything away" they don't assign a cause to the #roblem% )ccording to other sources they finally assigned the blame to an incorrectly assembled test instrument% ! just recall the original news coverage in the &? suggesting (mischieviouly? that the cause was conversion factors% Of course i have as much or as little difficulty believing a scientist or an engineer can missassemble a test instrument so it is only -*10thou off as i have about them making conversion errors% !f i $miss-assembled a test instrument you can bet if could bet it a meter or more off% ! have no reason to doubt the official story but it wouldn't sur#rise me if at some time in some similar situation some one hasn't invented some less embaraasing story to tell the #ublic than the real truth% 6ut this is about engineers and scientists not making mistakes%%%i am reminded of the old car#enters adage%%% measure twice and cut once% i%e% we are all fallable and we are most fallable when we decide we are infallable and measure only once% 9ubble is the #roof of the ability of engineers to err and it really doesn't make much difference whether it is because they can't

convert or they can't follow the assembly instructions #ro#erly% ()nd who reads the instructions these days%%%? and there is another #roblem%%% with assembly instructions re5uired in multi#le languages today" the actual content has decreased to a meaningles legal minimum % 8he main #oint is that if we have to make conversions we will make mistakes% !t is an unnecessary ste#" or at least" one which can be eliminated while i doubt we can eliminate instruction manuals or make them readable and hel#ful% !f conversions have to be made i don't care who it is" sooner or later human beings will find a way to foul u#% ) lot of engineering today is about is making things $idiot#roof$" the newer your com#uter the less decisions it allows you to make%%%$#lug and #lay$" $straight from the bo+$%%% and so on #rogressively eliminating any #ossible areas where #eo#le can mess u#% )nd if you think engineers can't mess u# a conversion then you won't #rove it by my colleagues and !% 8ake the e+am#le i gave" we were caught out in one of the factors we 5uote because we got the too few noughts (:eros in the s#ecification4 not one engineer" but several" the guy who wrote it u# and the guys who checked him%

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o#g (Fhemical Mar ,+, +--3 !f you don't believe 9ubble was an '! screw u# here is a link to a well documented one% htt#>**www%airdisaster%com*cgiRbin*viewRdetails%cgi?dateT0C/I-H2IZTFM)&=XairlineT)irUFanada ,orking in two languages and two measuring systems we managed to #ut only one 5uarter the necessary fuel into a C.C which had to crash land on an disused runway*racetrack when they ran out of fuel% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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o#g (Fhemical Forrection" it was a 6oeing CGC% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca


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Mar ,+, +--3

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.M/ (!ndustrial Mar +7, +--3 8he Metric 'ystem is a modern system devised to be a coherent system of units% 8he other system of abitrary values devised by the &?*M6 and ado#ted*adjusted by the &') is sim#ly a museum #iece and a #ain in the #roverbial to use% !n defence of the 'old' sytem it suited the measurements e+#ected at the time4 chains" furlongs" slugs" #ounds" ounces etc% =ot so much these days% ! don't think there is any argument for the old system e+ce#t that old fuddy-duddies" (do you have that e+#ression in the &'? !t means anyone old and boring in the &? - hey not my definition% ! 5ualify as one " like to be able to demonstrate their ability with it% 8hey are dying out though!

Fome on you guys join the real world and dum# the inch*foot*slug world% =o one says that you can't still s#ecify cycle threads for4 err" umm %%% cycle a##lications% Or &nified Bine for whatever% 'ome of those a##lications will continue to be relevant - we still make ,hitworth and 6'B bolts and nuts% !t's easier and more sensible %%%%% till the ne+t one!

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test* (Mechanical Mar +C, +--3 9as anyone given any thought to the cost to re#lace measurment instuments and such" most of which must be #rovided by the machinist% ,hile ! agree that it is easier for engineering to use metric" this is not true for manufacturing% ! didn't whine when metrics was im#lemented and ! had to convert them to decimal" why must it be your way%

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o#g (Fhemical Mar +9, +--3 WM3 has #ointed out that $8he Metric 'ystem is a modern system devised to be a coherent system of units%$ 8here was an interesting documentary about the two Brench gentlemen who set out to define the meter as a fraction of sector of the earth% &nfortunately one got caught u# in a war and got stuck at the latitude (! think in '#ain for the 'outh e+tremity of the sector% 6eing the good scientist that he was he took advantage of the delay and re#eated his thousands of readings" to verify his initial findings% &nfortunately he got a different answer so he did not tell anyone about the #roblem% ! think he just used the second set% 'ubse5uent analysis has determined that that the error was due to wear and tear on his much used instrument% 'o we are stuck with yet another irrational basis for a unit of measure% Does it really matter? !t turns out the earth is not as round as they thought it was then anyway% ! am sure others have further information on this #iece of science history% ! will be interested to see any additional #ostings which can correct*e+#and my recollections% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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sc (Fivil Mar +9, +--3 Don't worry about the cost of the instruments to measure" what about all of the automated machines that are driven by im#erial and their o#erators% !t is logistically easier to teach technical #eo#le to convert units than it is to teach the ordinary #erson to convert units% )lthough ! grew u# in an )ustralia that was converting to metric (DO6 -HG1 ! am still ama:ed to see older #eo#le using im#erial as their terms of measure (5uite often converting from metric first!! % 8he real transition took about ten years of education via the education system as ! can

recall many teachers who sim#ly refused to teach just the metric system% 'o ! am lucky that ! can now ra#idly convert the basic units in my head% 8he '! system is still the way to go but again not every one talks the same dialect% 9ere is a recent e+am#le of units that were available in an analysis #rogram> k=*m;/" =*m;/" k=*cm;/" =*mm;/" k<a" <a" #lus three versions of im#erial measure% 8he '! system as ! understood it is designed to sim#lify measure to units of -0" with a means of reducing the number of numbers dealt with" ie> k for -000" M for -000000" etc% ,hy doesn't it seem to work in #ractice? regards sc

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o#g (Fhemical Mar +=, +--3 sc - ,hy don't we make better use of deca" kilo" mega" and their cousins deci" centi" milli" nano" #ico" femto" atto" giga" tera" #eta" e+a? <erha#s it is because they are far from being a modern coherent set% @ather they are tributes to $the 3atin$" and a few recent heroes of science% <resumably they were named to avoid favouring either the (nglish or the Brench language% )t the time many of us studied 3atin so that was a good choice% !ts time to rename them based on ten hundred" thousand" million" billion" trillion" etc% 8hen #erha#s we will sto# selling cars with /00"000 km on them" and my doctor will sto# #rescribing -000 mg #ills% )s an old fuddy-duddy who will be dying out soon" ! just thought a final outburst might make my 2G".00 second day% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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R2effer* (Fivil*(nvironme Mar +=, +--3 8he metric system is for la:y #eo#le who would rather shift a decimal #oint that learn to multi#ly or divide by -/ or I or . or 2 or -G or or or or%%% Wust kidding%

as an american" ! learned the im#erial (suitably modified measurement system" but having travled and worked in many other areas of the world" ! had to learn the '! system% 6ig Deal! ! don't convert% /0 F is /0 F% I/ B is still I/B% ! do find that a meter is too long and a gram is too small% ! find that engineers were smart to do away with inches and divide the foot into -0th's )rchitects should do the same thing instead of foisting fractions on us% to #ara#hrase archemedes%%% $Mive me a stick and ! can measure the world%$ ! just have to hand 89( stick to you so you can verify my measurements% !n other words" give me a system% 8ell me the rules% 8hen JO& stick to the system and the rules

JO& gave me% (and hurry" #lease%

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autocol ()utomotive Mar 3-, +--3 the thing that annoys me most" to refer back to a #ost from a fair way u# the thread" is that $cubic meter of water weighs -000 ?g$%%% that's the absolute stu#idest thing about the metric system% now don't get me wrong" i'm a metric man all the way and think im#erial systems are just a great invitation to screw u#" but why is it that the metric measure of mass's base is a factor of a thousand out from the rest of it's units? a cubic metre should weigh a gram%%% that way" O=( newton would accelerate O=( gram by O=( metre #er O=( second! ,9J O9 ,9J is a gram one thousandth of the mass it should truly re#resent!?? now that i've ranted about my one major #roblem with '! units" i can start on my 1H major #roblems with im#erial units%%% col%

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o#g (Fhemical Mar 3,, +--3 ,hy not - mega gram% !sn't the '! system su##osed to allow us to work in small numbers% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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Apr ,7, +--3 corus (Mechanical !f Mod had wanted us to go metric he would have given us -0 fingers - 9omer 'im#son

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sc (Fivil ,C,world +--3 )gain 9omer is wrong to a certain e+tent" we have five digits #er hand" giving us the Apr metric of -0 in total%

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post!

'reg/ocock ()utomotive Jes%%%% Fheers Mreg 3ocock

Apr ,C, +--3

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autocol ()utomotive i take it you don't watch the sim#sons that much? they only have four fingers (or three and a thumb if you #refer #er hand%%%

Apr ,C, +--3

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)o1<$ (Fivil*(nvironme Apr ,C, +--3 autocol is correct and ! just wanted to #ost to su##ort him" and 9omer of course" 9omer is never wrong!!! ! think 9omer is a closet (ngineer" =uclear of course" now we know why nucler engineers are a little bit stranger than the rest of us!!! 6ob<(

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corus (Mechanical autocol is correct" and so 9omer has a good e+cuse" but others?

Apr ,C, +--3

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sc (Fivil Apr ,9, +--3 'orry guys ! don't watch the 'im#sons at all since my wife caught my oldest daughter and ! discussing the more stressful (for 6art and 9omer #arts of a #articular 'im#sons e#isode and how it could be a##lied to her mum every now and then% 'o now it is banned whenever she is in the house% sc

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peglor (Mechanical owg"

Apr +:, +--3

8he meter is no longer defined by the original measurements taken by the originators of '!" it's now defined by the length of a certain (=ot very round number of wavelengths of a #articular emission wave for a #articular atom (9aven't time to check out the s#ecifics at the moment % 8he same is true for the mass of the kilogram" the length of the second etc% 8hey're all defined by atomic #hysics rather than the older more direct standards (!!@F the length of a metre and the mass of a kg used to be defined by the length of #latinum bars held under atmos#heric and tem#erature controlled conditions in Brance % ! would be interested in finding out why the kg is the fundamental unit of mass instead of the gram or rather why the gram wasn't assigned a mass e5ual to a kg first day% !t could be due to chemistry calculations where -/g of Farbon -/ is e5ual to - mol of the substance" but ! wonder does anyone else know% )lso" s#eed limits in !reland are still #osted in m#h" with distances in miles on old signs and km or miles on new ones ('ince #eo#le are ha##y enough working with either unit it doesn't really matter % Mreen signs are always km though% 8em#erature is always in Felcius" celcius is about the only unit in '! that really is easy to get your head around" 0 is where water free:es and -00 is where it boils% !'ve never used farenheit at all" though medical thermometers often use it% !'ve worked in '! and !m#erial*&' units" and '! certainly makes more sense% !reland still uses a mi+ of units" but the '! system almost universal for industry" e+ce#t for the s#ecification of wire gauges" #i#e fittings and land areas% 'trangely enough !'ll still give distances in inches*feet when talking to #eo#le but always work in m*mm on #a#er% <art of teaching #eo#le to work in '! does involve assigning every 5uantity in the calculation a unit and #erforming the calculations on both the numbers and the units to arrive at an answer% !f this answer has the correct units then at least the form of the e5uation used is correct% 8he lack of fiddle factors in calculations is the real strength of '! ! think%

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o#g (Fhemical Ma* ,, +--3 #eglor - 8hanks for #ointing out the current bases for '! standards% ! think that the reason that the number of wavelengths is $not very round$ is that it is chosen to e5ual the originally floored measurement% <erha#s we should have waited until the earth changed sha#e enough" then re#eated the measurements when the wavelength number came out to be a whole number% 8he length of a king's foot still makes more sense to me on a cost*benefit basis% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca
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)ruce< (!ndustrial ep +C, +--3 ! believe that the real reason the &') resists conversion to metric is the manufacturing and business infra-structure% Machine tools are calibrated in (nglish units% <re-formatted #rograms assume (nglish unit values% Bor e+am#le" to make an entry in a catalog" ! might enter the number 1-% 8he out#ut automaticvally a##ends $inches$ or some other unit to that number% )nd" so forth% 8he education com#onent can be dealt with over time% 8he re#lacement of machines and #rograms" etc% can also occur over time but the result would be some machines on a sho# floor #roducing in metrics and others in (nglish units% 8hat is #atently intolerable% ) means of costeffectively managing the transition has not been devised% (ven if you consider a $green-field$ #lant" the transition is a #roblem% !f there is no market for metric widgets" then it makes no sense to make them% 'o" in my view" economics is the #roblem4 not education or arrogance or willfulness or the lack thereof% !f there was an economical solution" ! am sure )merican businessmen would be #ursuing it aggressively%

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pa1lo-+ ((lectrical ep +C, +--3 !'ve heard rumor that the metric system was the brain child of =a#olean (although not Brench himself and the &' will never com#letely go metric because of it's (Brench origin -- ha" ha%%% anyway" it is a shame that our schools do not teach the metric system anymore than it does -- the fundamentals of understanding measuring systems really originate at home to kids before they even go to school -- we will need to have the #arents comfortable in doing things normally in the metric system so the future generations will have an inate feel for it (! fully understand the system" but it is not intuitive to my thought #rocess %%% ! s#ecify all things in &' 'tandard because all of my em#loyees know it and few know the metric system%%% a [$ is obvious" -1 mm is an unknown%%%

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ep +C, +--3 'reg/ocock ()utomotive $&' will never com#letely go metric because of it's (Brench origin -- ha" ha%$% 'ince the &' form of government is largely based on Brench ideals at the time of its creation ! think that would be a strange argument%

\uite why such a #iffling detail as the choice of measurement system creates so much angst is beyond me% )ll measuring systems are arbitrary" with the #ossible e+ce#tion of integers (counting % (ven then the choice of base is u# to the user% Fheers Mreg 3ocock

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Edas-7 (Mechanical ep +C, +--3 My kid (a junior in a &%'% high school told me ! needed to cut / cm off a board - ! hit him with the board of course% ! just retired from a global com#any and used to get some interesting unit references% One guy in Fanada asked if he could run I (IMI of gas u# a /-I*2 string of tubing at C0F and -"000 #sig% 'omeone in !ndonesia had a #roblem with G miles of .0G. mm #i#e% etc% 8he $(IMI$ reference seems to be uni5ue to Fanada" ! asked $why not km-m/?$ and got a blank stare% 8hings are changing though% 8he #ost ,)J earlier that said their 8oyota had standard threads and their Bord and Fhevy both had metric had a key bit of data in it - every auto mechanic in the &' today has to have two com#lete sets of tools% 8hat's e+#ensive and ! believe that over time the $standard$ system will vanish from the auto industry because of #ressure from mechanics and unions% 8hey say in this country $as goes Detroit" so goes the nation$ (or something like that and not long after the autos sto# mounting -G inch wheels with /1 mm nuts" the metrification will accelerate% ,e're already fine with 1 liter engines% 8here's nothing inherently good or evil about any system of units - they are sim#ly a means to describe the #hysical world% 8he only evil in this discussion is the engineer who fails to s#ecify units% !f we are rigerous in always describing what we mean then the o##ortunity to screw u# in a big way is less% David 'im#son" <( Mule'hoe (ngineering www%muleshoe-eng%com

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)inar* (Mechanical ep +9, +--3 8he one thing that comes to mind in reading through all these threads and that's the value of carrying units through all your calculations% 8he e+am#le offered of the s#ace #robe going off course could never ha##en if the units were carried through% ! was taught early on to check for dimensional consistency at the end of every #roblem% ! didn't really start to do it assiduously until ! started doing chemistry and balancing redo+ reactions%

8hat's the biggest #roblem with (+cel and lots of other #rograms !'ve seen - they let you mi+ units invisibly% @egarding the change over to '!" ! don't think it'll ever ha##en in #ublic commerce" highway signs" etc% 8he average )merican just doesn't care to learn a new system of units and there's nothing in it for any #olitician who'd care to take u# the banner% 8here are much better sound-bite issues available% ! #resume that all engineers and scientists are $dimensionally bilingual$%

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o#g (Fhemical Fongratulations to the Metric thread on reaching -00 #osts% 9)YO< at www%curryhydrocarbons%ca

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2m# (!ndustrial ep +9, +--3 ,hen ! started at school" we were still on the im#erial system% 8hen metrication raised its head and we moved to the c%g%s system% 6efore long someone decided that this wasn7t right and we shifted to the kg%m%s system% 8o say we have the '! system would be wrong% )s other contributors have #ointed out" most #eo#le work with a mi+ of units drawn from different systems% (ven using cm instead of kilometres isn7t 5uite the same as using the '! system (a centimetre may be legit as an e+#ression of length but what about when you calculate volumes? - cmI is not '!" 0%00-MI is% Or is it? 8hen too" should it be -00ml or -decilitre? 8hen add to the confusion by changing the names% 8he move from Bahrenheit to Fentigrade was #roblem enough but change the name from Fentigrade to Felcius" and Furies to @oentgens or whatever and you can F is it F and /Gconfuse #eo#le even more% )nd what is the difference between /1 (one centigrade F is an actual tem#erature and -F ? is it because -F or -F- degree is a difference in tem#erature]% but who is rigorous enough to make this distinction? =ow if life were as sim#le as just changing the road signs then ! guess we7d all be in one unified system already% 8he s#eed limits don7t matter since no one takes any notice anyway and they become self-funding% Wust install any s#eed sign in whatever units and follow it with a s#eed camera% !n fact" in (uro#e s#eed limits are #roving such a money-maker they have introduced variable s#eed limits on the Motorways" )utobahns" )utostrada" etc%% 'o one minute you7re legal and the ne+t they dro##ed the limit on you" took your #icture and made a cool ^.0% 6ut that7s a #olitical move and #oliticians won7t do it% !t might cost votes (es#ecially after Fhancellor ?ole bought it for a double whammy of (a -Duetsche Mark T - Ost Mark and (b getting rid of 9err 8itchmeyer" the Deutsche 6ank and the Mark altogether for the (uro% 6ut if you give any retail business the choice they7d say let7s change% 3et7s have lots of changes% 3et7s have one after the other and don7t let7s try to do it all at once% 8hey know that the secret of any change is that the consumer #ays% 8ake #lumbing" it changed in the &? many years ago% )nd guess what" -/mm and [L are close"

but not close enough% )ny #lumbing job became a nightmare in the &? as it gave #lumbers the o##ortunity to change out whole #lumbing systems because the new and old co##er tubing didn7t match% KFhange just one bit and you7re storing u# #roblems for the futureL they7d say% K6etter to do it all now% Don7t know for how long we can get ada#tersL% )nd note that the various ada#ters always seemed to be unreasonably e+#ensive% Ks#ecialL [L to -/mm ada#ters always being more than [L to _L or -/mm to -1mm% Or even than -/mm to -/mm straight connectors% )nother e+am#le" changing the weights to KmetricL re5uired every manufacturer to change from -*/lb blocks of butter to the new metric e5uivalent si:e% Muess what" !7m sitting here debating whether to go and look at a block of butter to see what weight it really is sold in here! !t looks the same (or does it? ! don7t know% ]]% ]]]]]and ! still don7t know" the wife takes the wra##er of and #uts it in a dish% 8here" ! actually went and checked% ! think it is now /10gm (not 0%/1kg % 'ome things went to odd values like .1.gms (a #ot of honey % ,hy .1.? !s that a direct conversion? ! doubt if any sho##er knows (and how can the manufacturer say that this is a##ro+imately KI0 servingsL% 8he reason obesity is a #roblem is no one with an !\ of less than -20 can fathom out how many carbohydrates they7re eating #er #ortion% )ny diet is great but only if you have the first clue about how to measure your food factors% Bood labeling is a nightmare% ,hile the #oor consumer is struggling to figure out the difference between -*/lb and whatever number of gms (/10gm? they now sell it in" they missed that the #rice #er lb and #rice #er kilo showed an ama:ing thing" it costs more when you buy #er kilo% 3ook at decimali:ation" (^-T/.0# to ^-T-00# or any currency change% !n (uro#e the coins have been withdrawn from circulation% (ach one has been defaced% 8hen they have all been re#laced with the new (uros% 8hat costs money% ! don7t know why they did it% !t doesn7t make any sense at all" es#ecially not for #oliticians e+ce#t that each dreams of being <resident of (uro#e% 6ut again" the consumer #ays% 8hrough ta+ation% Of course" some of the costs are recovered% 8he old coins are sold for scra#% One com#any in 'candinavia is turning them into shi# #ro#ellers% ! don7t know what other uses are being found% ,ho #ays the balance of the costs? 9el#fully" all those #eo#le with undeclared income stashed away in hard currency who couldn7t face walking into a bank with a suitcase full of old deutsche marks to trade for the new (uro (this was a serious #roblem in Mermany" we are told have hel#ed contribute to the costs% 8he currency change has" naturally enough" given the manufacturers another chance to hike the #rices% =ot just by rounding u# when converting" this is small beer% Bor e+am#le convert - DM to (uros" it isn7t an e+act conversion so naturally enough the sum is rounded u#% =ow since many #roducts are #riced at NH%HH just to convince us its chea# where N-0%00 makes us think it is e+#ensive (! always fall for that one! 4 going from DM.%HH to (/%C..1 goes to an intermediate (/%C1 (a small gain and then to a new (/%HH (a better gain % Bor the DM to (uro conversion notice that DM.%HH looks bigger than (/%HH because .%HH is bigger than /%HH% 8his means it is easier to hike the #rice still further and hide it by fiddling with #ackaging si:es% 'o just change the #ackage si:e and sha#e a bit and throw in a KBreeL /0ml s#ecial offer% ,hen the KBreeL /0ml disa##ears no one will notice that the #roduct costs -0` more after the currency change to before% Most #eo#le are #retty good at Ksi:e*weight recognitionL when things are #acked consistently% 'o always be sure to change the #ackaging% 8he fact that wine was sold in bottles where a bottle was /Gflo: was never a #roblem% !t looked like a bottle% 'o just change to C1cl (not ccs and change the bottle sha#e and who knows what they are buying? More difficult is the conversion from Brancs to (uros because the e+change is something like this> .%HHB T (2%//GH% )n immediate #roblem because 2%/I looks more than .%HH% Of course" the re-#ackaging trick works as well here% 6ut while you may #ut less in the #ackage to dro# the #rice closer to (1" you may find it advantageous to not reduce the #ackage si:e in direct #ro#ortion to the weight reduction% 6uy an e+#ensive bo+ of chocolates some time and see what ! mean% Jou7d be sur#rised what imaginative #ackaging can do to make /00gm of chocolates look like a -kilo bo+" es#ecially if the actual weight is #rinted just once in very small #rint% 'o the trick is" never let the #unter contend with just one conversion% )dd a few more in and some re#ackaging tricks% 8here is even a fair chance some of them will get one of the conversions wrong" think they7ve discovered a big mistake of the manufacturers and stock#ile

two years worth of franks X beans% 8hen too" every change is an o##ortunity to sell NI solar #owered #ocket converters at NH%HH a #o#% !f you think this wouldn7t fool a I-year-old" you7re wrong% My wife looks at the #rice #er #ackage and not the #rice #er kilo (and shelf tags are very confusing since some show the #rice #er kilo" some the #rice #er -00gm and some nothing at all% ,hen we are in (uro#e she still converts the #rice to DM and using a -0 year-old conversion rate via Drachmas into 'tirling% 8his is her se5uential a##roach% 'he works things out according to the se5uence of countries she has lived in" making no allowance for e+change rate changes% 8his is no more flawed" financially" than the (& a##roach to the (uro% =aturally" we don7t go sho##ing together% ! s#end the time trying to work out the #rices only to find that while every other Mars #ack has a shelf tag showing the #rice #er -00gm the bag of fun si:e bars doesn7t have this so ! never can decide whether to buy mars bars or not% ! mention this because when there was only one si:e of Mars bar" the Mars bar #rice was used as a sim#le economic indicator in the &?% =ow we have the KBootsie !nde+L% 'he" meanwhile is buying two loaves of bread for the #rice of one when we can only eat one (the ducks get the rest but they just don7t offer half #rice bread% )nd how many #airs of red shoes can she really use? (none" it seems% 'he likes to sho# for them" buy them and #ut them in the cu#board% ! have never seen her wear them 3etting illogical beings do the sho##ing unescorted is no great way to survive but it kee#s the #eace (!s a female Aulcan a contradiction in terms? Most illogical but this is the key to change% 'o believe me" even with the dumbest of finance directors" F(Os etc any half-way decent marketing guys can show a do:en or more ways to milk any change of units" currency" or anything else for a minimum -0` #remium% )ll they ask is don7t do it all at once because that7s a clear -0` #remium #er change! )nd hey! 8he decimal change was a great earner% ,hy not now try binary? ! can count to -0 on my fingers in decimal but to ---------- in binary (-0/I in decimal? 8he &' has already started with a N- (-0000N bill and a N/ (0-000N bill% 8hey just need a N. (00-00N " N2 (000-0N N-G etc and we are half way there% 8hen label the old N1 bill -0-00N and the banks can get rich% !f we run out of changes" let7s do the whole thing over again" starting with the 6abylonian he+adecimal system and cuneiform scri#t% 6ill Mates won7t like that" but !7m so fed u# with having always to change the tem#lates from 8ime =ew @oman to anything" anything else at all that Funeiform will make a nice change% 'o how about it? !7m game%

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'reg/ocock ()utomotive 8here are -0 sorts of #eo#le% 8hose who understand binary" and those who don't% Fheers Mreg 3ocock

ep +=, +--3

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FrenchCA4 (Mechanical ,ell" time for my rant on this subject ! guess

ep +;, +--3

6eing Brench" !'m indeed using metric system since !'m a kid% ! learnt it at school and !'m using it in my every day life% !n my student life" ! ha##ened to go one year in Fanada for my studies% 9ence ! had to deal with all your series of units and transform my Brancs*3iter (was before /00/ in &'N*Mallon for the car gas during my tri# in &' for s#ring break% 9eck of a story it was! ! let you guys have fun with this without your com# nor your calculator" because of course you do not travel with any of those when you go in holidays" do you? 8o hel#" you can use - &'N T G%10 Brancs (was around this at the time and good luck to calculate by head =ow" do ! care to have horse#ower or watts for my engine s#ecs? not really% 9< is an old unit and #eo#le are used to it% ! agree we should switch to ,atts in regards of '! units% 6ut let's be realistic! ,hat does it change for customer to have ,atts instead of 9<? 8he real use is for the engineer" isn't it? 3eave customer use their 9<" most of them wouldn't know what ,atts are anyway% Bor them" ,atts are only related to their electric bill lol% ,e however" as engineers" have to follow codes% Jou guys in &' use alot )'M(" B))" !((( or whatever codes to design" manufacture etc your #roducts" don't you? 'o why in the 9ell wouldn't you use '! units? ! know it's related to your 9istory and culture" and thus you won't leave your units easily% 9ence ! don't ask you to abandon them" just to work with '! ones% Wust as ! work in Brench and (nglish on my #a#ers because those are intended to be used by many countries% <a#ers intended to be use only inside my com#any are written in Brench% Do you see my #oint? 8here are standards set for international understanding" and as engineer" ! think we are educated enough to a##ly them as well as understand what they are and why they e+ist% Wust my / cents Fyril Muichard Mechanical (ngineer

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Duark (Mechanical ep +;, +--3 6rilliant one" Mreg! (Jou got me guessing%%%% it's like a null set% ! understood your #ost but binary system is well over my head 6elieve it or not > 8here is a three dimensional figure but only with one face" called Mobius 'tri#%

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7-,8 (Mechanical "ct +, +--3 8his is funny% ,hy is it even an issue which system is used% Ok so we use english here in the &%'% and everyone else uses metric% Once you learn both then it's no #roblem to use either% ! know there are a lot of advantages to using the metric system because it makes more logical

sense% 6ut think about in the english system where the - lb mass is e5ual to - lb force% ! would guess that some #eo#le would argue that that is a nice system% (ach system has it's advantages and disadvatages which makes me believe that both systems aren't going anywhere%

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Can$ng.ohn ()utomotive "ct 3, +--3 ! am Fanadian and born in 'C-% ! grew u# during the introduction of the metric system and had many a blank stare as ! entered the world of automotive manufacturing% !t took me about G months to become fully fluent in Metric and &' units% ! know without hesitation that - mil is IH%IC thou% )nd J(' those e+tra digits )@( significant% ! know #eo#le who use .0 and #eo#le who use IH% 8hey are both wrong and have cost me tens of thousands of dollars in wrong #arts for my machines% ! know #eo#le who don't know what a thou is and #eo#le who growl at me to use im#erial $cause the lathe ain't metric$% ! convert s#ecs from lbf to =ewtons and back again in my head these days(.%..2 =*lbf % ! have two different sets of allen keys% ! know it is .1. g #er #ound and /%/ lbs #er kilo without thinking% 6ottom line here is that we are (ngineers% ,e by nature have to be multilingual in measurement% ,hy you ask? ,ell when you are standing in front of a #iece of assembly e5ui#ment the #art needs to be long enough and strong enough to do the job% !t really doesn't matter what unit you use to measure it% $8he cylinder needs to have a 0%00/.21 furlong stroke and be ca#able of working at .-IC%-H 8orrs%$ !f the sales guy understands it great% !f not you just wasted another N-/00 bucks% )lso even Detroit is not willing to shell out the hundreds of billions it would cost industry to immediately convert all their e5ui#ment over% !t would cost my current facility (- #lant of 100 ##l just over -C/ million to com#letely convert our e5ui#ment% )nd ! am sorry but ! cannot come u# with a - year #ayback to justify it% )nd that is why many #eo#le still use the &' units% Oh yeah and butter here is sold in .1.g blocks%

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rick*,+3 ((lectrical "ct ,3, +--3 ! have been an engineer for several years and have used both the metric and im#erial units (my #ersonal #reference is the '! units % '! units have distinct advantages such as easier calculations and standards to remember% 9owever" the &' industry will not change to the metric system because of one reason alone FO'8% ! was at conference on metriculation of units in the &' the s#eaker said it cost the &' industry billions of dollars to change over%

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1peirson ('tructural "ct ++, +--3 '! units do have an inherent ease of use but ! remember being in school (Fanada hearing that we must always dimension our drawings in millimeters" for instance a room -I100 + IG00% 8he

same instructors would howl in rage if the area of that room were given as .2G00000 s5uare millimeters%

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IFRs (<etroleum "ct ++, +--3 Dimensioning in millimeters gives a false sense of accuracy that is not always there%

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/ant*r (Mechanical 6utelja" ! just saw your story% 6est !ave ever heard in my engineering career%
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Roger( (<etroleum "ct +:, +--3 '!" &'" !m#erial% ,ho cares! )s long as we know clearly what we are measuring% 8he #roblem is not the units used but how it is used% (%g% regarding #refi+es> !t is 5uite clear what MM'FB*bbl is for a an engineer (Million" in the refinery business but if your are in a #art of the world were it is not that obvious (which units of measure is used and reads e%g% M'FB*h% !s it -000's or millions that is used? a sim#le attached abbreviation list with #refi+es" units and acronymes covered hel#s a lot% 'ame with measures like gallons" is it &? or &' gallons that is meant?% )nother e+am#le is when engineers use #ercent e%g% for measuring concentration" is it weight" volume or mole ` or what? 8he main #oint is that we should be clear on what units we are referring to and e%g% e+#licitly mention if we are talking &' or &? gallons (and not just gallons % !f not we are destined to make mistakes which can cost a fortune%!f one can fulfil this re5uirement ! dont think it matters so much which system thats is used" since it is $crystal$ clear what is meant if done thoroughly% @egarding changing units% 8hat will only occur if there is an obviouos advantage of doing so% (%g% if one would like to have the same #roduct (e%g% a car irres#ective if it is #roduced in &' or elsewhere in the world" with the same units of measure built into the car% )t that #oint the manufacturer will decide which system to be used and as long as it is clear for the su##liers and the customer which system is used" so whats the #roblem? !t is only to acce#t that different #arts of the world will use different system%

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