Roberts, Lane - Testimony Transcript

Transcript of the Testimony of Lane Roberts
Date: November 5, 2013 Volume: I Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
Printed On: November 13, 2013
Holliday Reporting Service, Inc. Phone: 417-358-4078 Fax: 417-451-1114 Email:daholliday@hotmail.com Internet:
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Joplin Critical Investigation
Page 1
IN RE:
JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION
SWORN STATEMENT OF
LANE ROBERTS
Taken on Tuesday, November 5, 2013, from 5:46 p.m. to 6:50 p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of Missouri, before SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650, a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.
Holliday Reporting Service, Inc. 417-358-4078
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 2
APPEARANCES
MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE Loraine & Associates, LLC 4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300 Osage Beach, MO 65065
tellaw@loraineandassociates.com
Lane Roberts
In Re:
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S T I P U L A T I O N
IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into typewriting. It is further stipulated that the signature of the witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of said witness shall be of the same force and effect as though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 4 I N D E X Page/Line DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4
E X H I B I T S
Exhibit #A.
5-6
Advice of Rights
Exhibit #17
33-9
Joplin Globe article
Note:
Exhibits in separate binder
(sic) - typed as spoken (ph.) - phonetic
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. LANE ROBERTS Having been first duly sworn and examined, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE: Q. Sir, I'm going to hand you what has been marked Exhibit #A. It's an Advice of Rights.
I want you to read that and I'll read it to you and we'll make sure you know what it is and what it does. Basically I'll read it to
you after you get done. Okay. If you will, sir, print your name and then sign it, if you will, Mr. Roberts, and date it. It's 11/5.
(Witness complies) Sir, have you complied with my request to read the Advice of Rights, sign the document, and is it marked Exhibit #A? Yes. Chief, I was privileged with the opportunity to chat with you a little bit in the hall. think you know what I'm doing here, probably out of the newspaper and probably out of City Hall, but I'm charged with the task of trying to investigate two, I don't want to call them I
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 competing, but they appear to be two groups pointing fingers at each other, and trying to get to some of those. And there are going to
be some questions I will ask you that you may not think is related to it and maybe it isn't, I don't know, but I'm doing my best to try to accumulate quickly information. I have no personal knowledge of any of this, which is a benefit to me. I don't come in with any I don't know
bias one way or the other.
what's going on here so part of the process is to learn what's going on. I have done
this many, many times, probably over two hundred times. I've done Hannibal, St.
Charles, the City of Laurie, several fire districts, and this one that I can recall. The purpose of this is to elicit information and what this document, Exhibit #A, says essentially, I'm going to read it because that's what I said I would do. "I wish to
advise you that you are being questioned as part of an official investigation by the City of Joplin. You will be asked questions
related and specifically directed to the performance of your official duties of
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Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fitness for office. You are entitled to all
the rights and privileges guaranteed by the laws of the Constitution of the State and the Constitution of the United States, including the right not to be compelled to incriminate yourself. I further wish to advise you that
if you refuse to testify or to answer questions relating to the performance of your official duties, you will be subject to departmental charges, which could result in your dismissal from your official duties. you do answer these statements may be used against you in relation to subsequent departmental charges, but not in any subsequent criminal proceedings." what we call a Garrity Warning and essentially it's the method by which a city finds out what it knows. what its employees know. doing here. It can only know That's what I'm That is If
If at any time you want to take If I don't treat you If you get aggravated I'm here to Your name has And if
a break let me know. cordially let me know.
at me I'll rephrase something. try to learn some information.
come about several times so we talk.
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. you have some questions I'll be happy to try to treat people with the courtesy I would want you to treat me with, okay? Okay. Chief, there's been right off the bat some statements that you have passed some information allegedly from the FBI to City Manager Rohr, and I guess I need to ask you what that information is and what your source was. We can talk a little bit about the pending Request for Freedom of Information Act and all those things, but to cut to the chase I think the key to this thing is, and I talked on the record, I talked with you off the record about your background and I recognize that you're highly qualified and for all intents and purposes I've heard a good Police Chief. what I've heard. So I mean so far that's The question I guess I have
that I've got to get to is what was it that you told Mr. Rohr, the City Manager, that he repeated that he had information that wound up in the newspaper? And I can get more
specific about that, but to say the least there was a statement made by Rohr publicly
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. A. that he had information that would keep Scearce from running for Mayor and that's what I want to know, what information did he have? This may take a minute because in order for you to understand what I told him and why it was told I've got to lay a little ground work. Sure. We have an officer who is assigned as liaison to the FBI and actually works in that office. There was one that worked there and there's now the subsequent replacement. And give me their names. The officer that worked there originally was James Altic who is currently the Police Chief at Seneca. The officer there at the moment
is William Davis, although he has very limited, if any, involvement in this. first arrived here there was an ongoing criminal investigation regarding organized gambling that was interstate. the FBI. It involved When I
And prior to me ever having a
uniform the interim chief took me over to their office, I met with them, they gave me a
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 thumbnail about the nature of this investigation and how expansive it was. made it clear that we had interstate connections, that there were direct connections to this crime, there were many, many witnesses and suspects, lots of people in Joplin were involved, but they, in fact, put people at risk if this information got out. In the course of that they identified They
one of my Lieutenants at the time as being somebody who took part in this activity and who also knew and was associated with known criminals, people who were part of this organized effort. They apprised me off and
on that they were part of eight months of all of this. There came a point in time when The difficulty that
they were going to act.
I was faced with is I don't work with the Council, I work for Mark Rohr. works for the Council. Mark Rohr
So I found myself and
one of my officers investigating a member of Mark's direct supervisor and my problem was was I going to let him be surprised by that. It didn't seem like very good politics to me and it didn't seem appropriate to me leaving
Lane Roberts
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Page 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. him in the dark and letting him get surprised with it. Mr. Scearce's name came up during When Mr. Scearce's name
that investigation.
came up and not until Mr. Scearce's name came up did I ever mention his name to Mark Rohr. We were in the process, I made a decision based on what the FBI told me that I could not continue to employ that Lieutenant. What was the Lieutenant's name? The Lieutenant's name was Geoff Jones. was a very difficult situation because although the FBI had made me aware of all this, basically they told me I couldn't tell anybody. So now I'm employing a command It
level officer engaged in inappropriate conduct, but I can't tell anybody about it. So I went to their office, reviewed all the reports, interviewed their agents and determined I didn't have a choice but to terminate that man, which I did. He left an
appeal with the Personnel Board, he went to the Circuit Court and then he went to the Court of Appeals and my decision was upheld. Based on what? It was based on the fact that FBI would not
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. work with the Joplin Police Department as long as he was employed here, based on the fact that he had been dishonest in my investigation, I know today I have information he lied to the Personnel Board, and I have a video evidence of him associating with known criminals. The
conduct was simply not acceptable in a police officer, much less a commanding level officer. Did you have any video of him associating with Scearce? No. Did you have any information that Scearce was going to be indicted? No. Was there any information in anything that you reviewed, and I assume these are FBI reports, and I've seen FBI reports before and they don't like to give them out to very many people, was there anything in there that indicated Scearce was a target of a criminal investigation? Yes. What was that?
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. A. At no time was I ever given FBI reports, nor do I have any in my possession right now. was allowed to review those reports in the FBI's office and only there. I've done that. In the course of this investigation, now I've got to be careful because the information that I was given - let me go back. explained to the FBI that they were investigating one of my direct supervisor's employers I needed to know what can I tell him about this without either disrupting or in some way damaging the investigation. They When I I
gave me a very specific set of bullet points that I was authorized to tell Mr. Rohr. told Mr. Rohr this. Do you have those bullet points? It was never reduced to writing. What were they? One, that Mr. Scearce had rented to known bookies, that he actually had gone to his building for the purpose of facilitating their business, that he himself had gambled with them, that he had run phone lines for them to be able to run the business, and that I
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. A. Q. Q. he had continued socializing with those people on an ongoing basis. That in a
nutshell is what Mr. Rohr was told. Okay. Let me recall here for a minute. Did
I hear you say that he was not indicted? He was not indicted. Was there ever an explanation of why he wasn't indicted? Essentially there was a whole bunch of people that were in that investigation, that were the subject of that investigation that were not indicted. My understanding was the U.S.
Attorney didn't feel that it was worth their time. fish. I know you're telling me the truth because you said you'd tell me the truth and I know that you're not going to lie on something, but you understand that we're in a situation that the feds have let you down. I think that's an understatement. And where I'm at now is I've got complaints out there. Perhaps Mr. Rohr should not have said I've got things that if you run for Mayor you're not going to win. I mean maybe Basically they just weren't big enough
Lane Roberts
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Page 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. A. Q. he shouldn't have said that. I rather wish he had not. But he has and we're now dealing with that problem. So what else is there that you know
in that investigation that you've read, what else other than what you've told me was indictable? Associating with known gamblers.
Here is the challenge that I have had and continue to have right now, is what I know is part of an FBI investigation and I have not been authorized to release it. What Mark That's
Rohr knows is what I just told you.
the information that he conveyed to then Mayor Gary Shaw. it. Subsequently he conveyed He
I did not talk to Gary Shaw.
conveyed it to Mike Woolston. to Mike Woolston.
I did not talk
He conveyed it to Melodee
and I was present for that and gave her the same bullet points. Melodee? Melodee Colbert-Kean who is our current Mayor. At no time frankly did either Mark
Rohr or I believe that this investigation would still be going on for five years down the road. I have not been authorized to
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. release anything other than what I just told you. When Mark said what he said my concern
at the time was all you know is what I just told you. You were given a very sanitized
detailed free list of bullet points because it was important that you know so that you didn't get surprised. of my telling him. That was the purpose I
Nothing has changed.
am still not authorized to release the information that I know to be true. even release it to Geoff Jones. I can't
And I would
love to be vindicated in the media for my reasons for terminating that Lieutenant, but I've never been able to tell anybody because that's not my information and I can't prove it even if I did reveal it because I don't have any of those documents. the FBI. It's their property. They belong to
You know, we have an interesting problem from the standpoint that I've got a guy whose reputation, he's complaining about his reputation ruined. I've got a guy that's
mimicking some information that he was given and not anything more. And now I've got a
Police Chief that feels that he can't release
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. any additional information because the FBI hasn't authorized him to do so. And yet I'm
asked to investigate Mr. Scearce, what he's done wrong and why he ought to be impeached. You know, you're going to be in a difficult situation, and so am I, if we don't get past the point we're at now because I mean they're talking - I mean there is discussing about impeaching a guy. official. He is a publicly elected
I mean we could certainly have a
secret impeachment, but the results and the name clearing and all the other due process stuff is there. So I guess my comment is who do you have to talk with? There is nobody. If I've held one
conversation I've held fifty conversations with the FBI and the U.S. Attorney wanting information that I could release. They have
turned this community on its ear and left us to cannibalize one another. There is no
information that I can produce because they won't release it. problem. And therein lies the
It's no different than it was with I know all kinds of stuff. I
Geoff Jones.
can't release any of it because I don't have
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. anything to release. And anything I tell you
comes out of their files and now I'm committing a federal crime because they have an ongoing interstate investigation concerning this gambling. is not over. that's done. Well, I've got to go -He is, but there are also local informants, people whose safety is at risk if that information is released inappropriately. Have you talked with an attorney? No, other than the City Attorney. U.S. Attorney. He doesn't do much private practice. It doesn't help me much. No, who is that down there now? Mike -That's all right, I can find out. You Well, the That investigation
It's only the local component
believe that you will be indicted for violation of a federal criminal act? I didn't say that. I didn't say I'd be I
indicted, although conceivably I could. would be committing a crime to release
investigative information from another police
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. agency's investigation. material. I hate to say that's a thing to lose your job over. If losing my job for doing the right thing and abiding by the law is what happens I'll deal with it. I have been between this rock It has It is no That's not my
and a hard place for seven years. been uncomfortable and unpleasant. different today. Probably worse. warning. What I can tell you is this.
Well, you know, you read the
With regard to
I think what Mr. Rohr believes, when I told you that he facilitated an ongoing criminal enterprise that's criminal conduct. He did
that by allowing them to over the course of five years to conduct - this is his statement, not mine - to conduct business on his property and he knew it. It's on the
radio he said that just last week. Well, he's trying to draw a distinction between when he first rented it and after they were there. It doesn't make any difference. He can tell
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. you that he didn't know what they were going to do when they moved in, but he said on the radio that he knew what they were doing for the remaining four years that they conducted business out there. his property. They were his tenants on
That's criminal conspiracy. He ran phone lines so He added onto
He was party to it.
they could do their business.
his facility so they could do their business. The whole idea that somehow a lawyer told him that he shouldn't engage in an ongoing criminal enterprise, told him to ignore it? No lawyer told him that. worth their salt. Certainly no lawyer that knew federal criminal conspiracy law. And therein lies the issue. conduct. That's criminal At least no lawyer
Regardless of whether he ever took And in my mind
a bet is criminal conduct.
things that he's said to the public are lies. I have no personal animosity towards Bill. I actually kind of half like him on a personal basis. He's a public official and I abide by
that conduct is not acceptable.
the law which is why I'm in the predicament
Lane Roberts
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Page 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. that I'm in right now. I'm not going to
violate the law and I don't appreciate public officials who do. Violating the public by
lying about which he knows the truth is not acceptable. He was asked no less than fifty Now he's
times, did you or did you not know.
telling us, well, I knew, but I didn't know when they first rented it from me, and somehow that makes it okay. Let me ask you a question. A. That's a crock. You saw the note?
No, I've never seen the note. Here is a note.
I'll show you the note. Okay.
Carol Stark, you know who she is? Uh-huh. Continuing criminal activity I think it says, something like that, line 4. that. His handwriting is tough. Yes, he explained it all to me. I've got it Something like
somewhere, but I don't recall right now. Anyway that's the famous note. Carol Stark. information. I asked for
She apparently called and had I asked for Carol Stark. Will
you meet with me and let me know some of your
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. information? No. Why would she say that?
Why would she do that? She's going to say she's the media and they protect sources and all that. And you know what, that's okay, I never asked her to disclose her sources. I just asked
her to tell me what the nature of her talk to this poor guy was, you know, and she won't help me. And all of that is helpful to this
investigation. Sure. Did he tell you that we had gone and
had an interview with her? Tell me about that. Well, I was asked to meet over at her office and she asked us about this issue with Bill Scearce. Bill had contacted them, he had
made statements that he didn't know anything about anything, and she wanted to know. See,
we were all just real secretive about this thing because the FBI wasn't telling anybody and I couldn't tell anybody, and then Bill commanded a meeting in Mark's office with he and I and Mark and the City Attorney. In
that meeting he accused me of inappropriate conduct by informing Mark of the fact that he
Lane Roberts
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Page 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. was a person of interest in this investigation. It's not inappropriate. was authorized. It
But what he did, I mean what
he called that meeting was the contents of that meeting had nothing to do with the FBI. That's not the information. And now suddenly
there's information in the City's possession that can be released, the fact that we had that meeting. And I can't tell you, I do not
know how Carol found out that meeting occurred. There was at least four people in
the office and who knows how many saw us all go in there. So I was called over and asked
about the meeting and I told them the same thing I just told you. Chief, I respect you, but I've got a job to do. I understand. And part of my job is to - I mean my experience with the FBI is that unless you're a U.S. Attorney or an assistant you don't get those reports. And if they give one - and
one time since I've been out at the U.S. Attorney's Office I did get the opportunity to look, you know, but no copies. I mean I
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. had that experience. You usually can develop independent sources and you don't have to use that, you can talk to the witnesses they talked with and things of that nature and develop the same story. You can if you know what those witnesses' names are, but they didn't give me the names of confidential informants. Then none of your information that you have can really endanger anyone if you don't have their names. If you say things that people can draw inferences from maybe it doesn't endanger the right people, maybe it endangers the wrong people. You just don't go swinging a lot of We know of at least one
information.
significant beating that occurred where a man was hospitalized as a result of this investigation in Joplin. Not the interstate
stuff but right here in town. Can you give me that information? There's a record of that. Who was it? I'd have to get the record. beating. We have suspects. He reported the In fact, we
Lane Roberts
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Page 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. arrested the suspect in that case. Can you give me that information? You can go to records request and get that easily. From who? Us. That's a Joplin case.
I don't need that, I'll just ask you to get it for me. That will work. Okay. I'll get it, but the case itself is
open record. The fact that it's related to this case -I mean it might lend credibility to your position to the Council because I'm going to have to look the Council in the eye and tell them I can't comply with the request that they asked me to give and here's why, here's what happened to one guy that did get hurt because of this. Makes some sense to me.
What you're going to see is you're going to see a report on assault. contain that information. That's okay. I'll show you the information on the assault and who was arrested as a result of it. Okay. I really need to have information and That report doesn't
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. I would be willing to talk to a U.S. Attorney or assistant if they'll talk with me. My
guess is they don't give a shit what I need, but -It's with the Bureau at the moment, not the U.S. Attorney. me today. In fact, Debbie Woodin called
Did I tell you what they told her
when she asked about the status of the request? You said something about it had been extended for -It's in their back log file. It may never come out. Absolutely true. Yeah, it may never come out. Unfortunately,
you know, there are collateral damage to those issues, you know. You're protecting collateral damage the other way, but your Chief could be collateral damage, you know. I mean it's unfortunate, but they need to be somewhat responsive, and they're not. Well,
it's my understanding, and I understand your position that you're not going to give me the information that I need. Let's assume for a moment that I did. You
Lane Roberts
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Page 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. have nothing but hearsay. What I'm telling
you is what I read in reports. But you know what, I don't need but hearsay for an impeachment. I need something more. What I
I don't need first-hand knowledge.
need is more likely than not that the information that you're telling me is going to be impeachable versus what this - you know, this is probably defamatory. It's
probably not enough information to certainly help. Carol hasn't helped any. So my
frustration is going to be, and I mean I understand that this is my asking questions, but I respect your position and the position you're in. I'm trying to negotiate with you.
But, yeah, I mean you read the warning. Your frustration and mine are very similar, but I have issued Garrity warnings myself many times over and I know nothing in the Garrity ruling that says that I'm required to violate the law in order to abide by it. I would be violating the law to provide information from somebody else's investigation, particular a federal matter. I wish I could. I would give anything to And
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. pour my heart out and just get this thing with a stake driven through its heart once and for all. can't. I'm sick to death of it. But I
And if the Council feels that my
abiding by the law is in some fashion problematic for them they don't need to terminate me, they can have my notice. I'm
not going to walk away from this with my head hung down. I certainly don't want to be the instrument of that, I guarantee you. You're in a tough spot. me ask you this. I realize that. Let
When we're talking
impeachable what he did was criminal and he has lied about it. Is there any worse
transgression for a public official than to lie to the public? No, but we haven't gotten the lie yet. But I have given you - anything I tell you is the same substance of what I've told you about him committing criminal acts and knowing it and lying about it. thing. Well, you know -I simply can't get those documents. The same
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Let me just say this, Chief. You're an
evidence gatherer and you know what good is that evidence if there's no credible background. I mean if you told me here, look
here, this what I read, you're either a credible guy or you're not, and obviously you're a credible man. lie? No. Do I think you would
Am I charged with the
responsibility of digging enough up to impeach this guy? Well, maybe both of these I
two guys are going to get in trouble. don't know. I'm learning.
But up to this
point the guy that's probably - I mean I don't have much on Scearce. In your mind are his personal statements credible evidence? There's a recording of
his interview with KCRG where he said, yeah, I found out the first few months and then I called my lawyer and he said to ignore it. Yeah, I did see that. I did see - let me I'm
just give you what is referenced here.
just gathering this stuff today, you know. Here is Exhibit #2. your time, Chief. pressure. Tell me if that's - take You're under a lot of
Read the whole thing.
Lane Roberts
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Page 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. To be quite frank with you, I know what you I appreciate your sensitivity, but I don't feel pressured here. My conscience is clear.
This is not the information I'm referring to. Look at the last paragraph there, maybe. I've got some nuance there that he maybe was trying to explain something. What I'm suggesting to you is this. Mr.
Scearce, he's quoted in the paper repeatedly. He gave a - he actually held a press conference wherein he told a number of people in front of the media I did not know what they were doing, and then he goes on the radio and says on the radio for the whole world to hear I misunderstood, I thought - I know what they were doing when they first moved in. Of course I knew what they were You couldn't
doing, this is almost a quote.
not know what they were doing, there was so much traffic going in and out, so I called my lawyer and he said to ignore it. So he
allowed this criminal enterprise on his property for the remaining four years. That's criminal conduct, one. Then two, when
Lane Roberts
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Page 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. Q. A. A. Q. he said he didn't know about it it was a lie. He admitted it was a lie. And I don't know
what more I would contribute than that, which is his own conduct. Here is a quote. "After first repeatedly
denying any knowledge of the gambling operation at the office he rented to the bookie Scearce recently told the Globe that while that was true initially he ultimately learned what was going on there. was never involved in the gambling operations, but did not do anything about it after learning of it." to impeachable. That document you'll notice is dated just recently, two weeks ago. Yes, November 1st. Yeah, this discussion, his denial, has been going on for over a year and the denial -But where is the part about the attorney gave him advice? He said that just last week on KRZG. Separate from this? Separate from that. How do we get a copy of that? That is pretty close He said he
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. A. I think you can probably call KRZG and ask for a copy. It should be public record. mean they aired it. I
You might even be able
to get it off the Internet. Why don't I give you that job? I can try. I'm kind of a techno idiot, but
maybe I can get some help. Yeah, one of your young guys. The point is what's happening is that each time we get closer to your investigation he is closer to -Telling the truth. What we're doing here is trying to ease him into the bath water a toe at a time. Uh-huh. And what you're reading there, the Globe said he had repeatedly denied? After at first repeatedly denying any knowledge. In fact, you may find there was a press conference that he called and there was a reporter from the Globe which he asked her if she didn't understand English when he said that he was not going to comment, and in that article he said very clearly I didn't know
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. Q. what was going on. Chief, if you don't mind I'm going to just start documenting something here. I'm going
to show you what we've just been talking about. This is a note from my legal
secretary that she picked out of the Joplin Globe. I've put in green a portion that Is that true? And
we've been talking about.
this is Exhibit #17. Is that a true statement I just made? Yes. All right. So this will be the beginning.
If you can provide me through one of your young policemen to get some, I don't care how you get it, just so you get it -I can download it from the Internet, I'm sure. And you know what, I'm probably about your age, maybe older, and we were left behind on that. In my case it was deliberate. to go there. Yeah, when it started, when the computer thing started in the 80's I deliberately I don't want
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. Q. A. avoided it. But I was in my own practice and
I was high enough that I didn't have to worry about it and I just quit worrying about it. Somebody came in and told me one day, Chief, you're going to have to learn how to run the computer and I said, let me get this right, I'm the Chief and I've got a gun. Exactly
who do you think is going to make me do this? And that's exactly - I didn't have a gun, but that's exactly what I said. No, we're too
old for it and unfortunately that's the way it is. But I've got a lot stuff to cover so
do you want to make a note to yourself of what I need? I'm going to give you a sheet
of my paper here. I've got something here. Okay. If you would do that that would be
very helpful. And I really do understand your position, believe me. And I don't want to be a bum head, you know. This has become such - I've been in this position for so long that it's nothing new. I've been in it from the beginning. The
Lieutenant that I'm talking about was an active member of the Kiwanis, well liked by
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. many people. Where is he at now? For awhile I think he was doing security I think for Walmart. Is he out of police work? Yes. He won't get a job again will he? No, no. What I said earlier, I've been at
this 43 years and the idea that we should be above reproach based on according to some, but it's into everything that I do. I believe it. So when people lie I get upset about it. That officer lied to me, he lied to the FBI, he lied to the Personnel Board under oath. don't care if it's the Personnel Board or not, that's called perjury. sin. You can't do it. It's a Cardinal I
You give me a cop
without honor you're giving me somebody I can't use. They're worthless to me. He
can't get on the witness stand anymore, he's impeachable, so yes, he's done. My complaint
with what's going on here, you know, the reality is that had this gentleman come forward and said, you know what, 20 years ago
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. I ran into these people, yeah, I knew what they were doing, I should have stopped them but I didn't, gosh, I'm sorry. would have simply gone away. The issue But the issue
is not did he or did he not engage in gambling. Frankly I don't know that anybody But when you
gives a rip, including me.
start lying about it today the issue is your personal integrity, how you violated the public trust. That is the only issue in my mind today. Because what he did 20 years ago The bureau could
statutes run, you know.
have charged him with an ongoing criminal enterprise. There's no statute on that.
They did not. That's up to them, that's not my decision to make. What is important,
however, is that this gentleman has been asked repeatedly did you or did you not and he has repeatedly said no until that moment. You're referring to Exhibit #17? Yes. I felt that was relevant as a start. I take
it that this interview by the radio station is one step further than this? That occurred a few days after this. If
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. that's encroachment on the truth we get closer and closer. Prior to this article, it
was just days before, where he held a press conference and the press conference would be verbatim what he said. He issued a
statement. He read it to the press conference and he said I didn't know what was going on. Why don't you give me that, too. I will try. You've got cops to direct around. it. You can do
Well, you know, at our age what else can
we do. Do something because I'm staying working a long time. Yes, I'm sorry to keep you here. That's all right. I really appreciate your cooperation on this and your understanding. It's a tough one.
Well, I'll be honest with you in this particular interview other than my discussion with Mark, I told you what I told Mark, I have walked up right against the boundaries in my mind. The officers that we sent over
there signed a document saying they're swearing them to secrecy. They authorized
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. them to confide certain information to me and so when I'm reviewing that in any context I struggle with it. This is going to be public, so yeah, I see why. I see why. Your FBI guys are going to
say, well, that guy is close to infringement on the boundaries. I understand the terrible
dilemma you're in, unfortunately the law doesn't support that position but I certainly understand where you're at. Unless they're going to charge me with violating - they don't want to come to my office and start accusing me of it because right now I'm not very happy with them either. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that's true. Let's
change the topic a little bit.
What is it
that you do with internal investigations on City officials? If we conduct the investigation a copy remains with us. If it's outside our department normally it will go over to Personnel. And I don't know if the City
Attorney keeps a copy or not, I honestly don't know that.
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. I understand that there's been some kind of domestic violence charge against Rohr? No, there was a report of domestic violence, went down to his house, they had an argument, his daughter picked up the phone, called 911 all upset and said some things that she ultimately said I didn't actually see anything. There was little hard feelings We
between - she's a stepdaughter to Mark. determined there had been nothing but an argument. charges. They were yelling.
There was no
There are those who would ask me,
well, did he tell you not to do something. You and I I think understand at this point I'm not leaving my profession in shame by being told to do something that's criminal. If there had been probable cause for an arrest he'd have gone to jail and I would have stood the heat if that's what it took. But there was none. At the time the officer I made him write
didn't even write a report. a report.
Had I not done that there never
would have been an issue with this, but I made him write the report because the law says that when you have a report of domestic
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. A. A. Q. Q. Q. A. violence you will write a report. the law says. Is that report available to me? Sure. Yeah, they should have copies of it at Once that thing is done it's open I do what
City Hall. record.
Do you have any other internal reports concerning that matter? None. So you believe that to be a total stinking fish? I completely trust the officers who were on the scene. They interviewed -Still here? Yes, they interviewed Mark and Lola separately, they interviewed the children separately, and they walked away absolutely convinced it was nothing but an argument. Do I need to talk to those officers? I don't know that you do. is reduced to writing. Can I have a copy of that? Sure. If you would give me that I'd appreciate it. Do you know anything about the complaints on Their information
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Woolston being involved in these real estate deals? I heard that the first time when Councilman Rosenberg brought it up at the end of a budget hearing. before. There had been no investigations or no reports of that? No. I've heard that there's some questions concerning the Bajjali, whatever it is -Wallace-Bajjali. Yes, do you know anything about those complaints or anything like that? activity on any of that? No, there is disagreement on Council as to whether or not we should be involved in the contract at all. Some of the people, well, No police I had never heard that
Mr. Scearce and Mr. Rosenberg in particular, adamantly oppose the idea, albeit they voted to sign the contract, and I never heard anything at all about Mr. Woolston somehow taking advantage of that until he called an investigation regarding -That was the doctor that called for that?
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. A. Q. A. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. No, it was Mr. Woolston called for the investigation involving Mr. Scearce, at a subsequent meeting it was Dr. Rosenberg who called for the investigation. I assume Rosenberg is on the other side? Yes. Is this Council pretty well divided on groups? Yes. So regardless what we do here we're going to make one half of that group mad? Pretty much. I probably won't be back here again. You know, you might, because there are people on that Council that I don't always agree with, but I think have the right motivations that they're doing the right thing. That's good to hear. They don't always like what they hear, but I don't know that they make it personal so they may be thrilled with your investigation. Unbelievable. I'm pleased to hear that I
know that refreshment was still alive in the world. There are some. I wouldn't call every one of
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. them necessarily, but most of them are making an honest effort. That's pleasing to hear. Let me just review
a few more notes and I'll be able to turn you loose. What the heck time is it? We're
approaching 7:00 o'clock.
Let me ask you If there
this, Chief, just to follow-up.
were an impeachment I assume you'd testify as you are here under oath that this criminal activity that you know from your readings and the FBI report that there's criminal activity involved with Mr. Scearce. say that? If for no other reason than Mr. Scearce's admission of it, yes. Anything whatsoever about Charlie Kuehn? you know the name? I know who is he. Anything about the Woolston stuff that's come to your attention? No. What about there's a lot of money on this Bajjali thing, I mean we're talking about potential upwards to 800 million dollars. Right. Do You'd be able to
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 44 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A lot of money. Is there anything in the way
that you've seen City Manager Rohr handle with the matter that is in you somewhat questionable? I'm not talking about taking
money, but I'm talking about maybe some ethical considerations. What I think the issue here is Mark Rohr, I mean he's not a warm and fuzzy guy. probably figured that out. I have figured that out. He's been accused of being bullying and intimidating. I've never experienced that. He is no nonsense. On the other hand I'm You
pretty deep into my career to be intimidated very much. And we get along well because he
gives me good, clear directions what he wants, and then allows me to do what I've been directed to do. accountable. If I don't I'm held That's
I'm okay with that.
what a department head does.
He is a bit of
a paradox in that although he's not a warm and fuzzy guy he is a true visionary. He has
an idea of what the community could be, he has the staying power to be able to follow the course of action to its completion. Our
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. downtown is a reflection of that. He
actually seems to be able to garner resources to achieve ends. I believe that Mark
sincerely believes in this Wallace-Bajjali project, that through that conduit he can turn this community into something more, something better than it was, and in his mind the result of that tornado will turn out to be something good despite the horrible loss. There are other members of the Council, however, who don't share that vision, who think that Wallace-Bajjali as a company is all about gouging us for every nickel they can get. And they believe that. Now I don't
know which one is right or wrong quite frankly, but I can tell you that their views on the subject are polarized and there is no middle ground. There's nothing that you're hearing that connotes double dealing, potential criminal activity? Nothing that you're aware of as a
police officer? And let me just assure you, if I thought that Mike Woolston was guilty of criminal conduct and I could prove it, if I thought the City
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Manager was guilty of criminal conduct and I could prove it I would act on that information. Let me ask you this question. a little fuzzy on this. And I'm really
I haven't really
bumped into a charter city except for Hannibal. But do you believe that the Police
Chief would be better - I don't know if this is a charter thing - would the Police Chief be better subject to the Mayor as opposed to the City Manager? No, and let me tell you why. that lightly. I'm not saying
I was involved in an effort
through the Missouri Police Chief's Association to create a just cause provision. Having come from Oregon and Washington and having spent, I've been a Chief or an Under Sheriff for over 25 years, in that time I have been directed on more than one occasion by either a member or the Council, the City Manager, or Mayor to do something that was either illegal or unethical and in each instance I declined to do that. the protection of just cause. But I had Here in
Missouri frankly if I were to decline to do
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. something even though it was unethical my job was to do that. Absolutely. And so just cause was an important provision and it benefits everybody. You don't have a contract? No, but then I never have had. my work product has been my job. Even Fire Chiefs have contracts. I've never had one. Just cause, that's how you get it? it in your contract? Now state law, that's what that pro effort was. There's a state law -You get I've always
So it gives value? Yes. So what the City Attorney is concerned
with is whether or not via state law the charter can be changed. He doesn't believe
the legislature has the authority to change a charter city's provisions. The Attorney
General disagrees with him, but it's a disagreement, it's a legal opinion. So
what's been proposed is that they move my position under the direction of the Council, thereby have a consensus of Council before I
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. could be terminated. For cause? Yes. Or period? I think for cause. For period. saying? But the reason that this is a bad idea is remember that the whole purpose of just cause is so that the City Manager can't influence me unduly. They can't make me do something I guess for any reason.
Even without cause, you're
illegal and unethical at the risk of my job. If you put the position under the guidance of the Council what you've done is broaden the undue influence. Now, every member of the
Council has the ability to try to influence me. What should happen is we should simply
in the charter say the Police Chief can't be discharged except for cause, and then the Council becomes the appellate body which is all -That's due process. Yes. I've studied a lot of due process and I tell you Missouri is - it's very unclear. I mean
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. we know that some of these laundering cases and some of that stuff is probably good law for us, but where it's all going, you know, it sounds to me like if you've got a process and you don't follow it here you're going to get reversed. Otherwise it's probably going to be sustained. screw with it. Today I think the issue of whether or not that law applies to Joplin I guess is a legal decision. mind. It can be easily remedied in my The courts don't want to
It's simply amend the language of the
charter to include that small provision. I think it can be easily remedied by giving the Police Chief a contract like most districts, fire districts do with Fire Chiefs. Missouri has been an interesting experience for me because when I started in 1971 old Washington law made sense. Oregon. Now I worked in That's
Oregon never did make sense. But
the weirdest place you'll ever go.
Missouri reminds me of old Washington law. But we do some things here that you don't see elsewhere. Criminal traffic, as an example.
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. It's a crime to speed. You can go to jail Here
for speeding in Missouri. Not out west. there was a big deal being made about the decriminalization of marijuana.
It hasn't It's So
been criminal in Oregon since 1978. still illegal, but it's not criminal.
here we arrest people for warrants because they didn't pay their speeding ticket, they'll go to jail. to me at all. jail space. That doesn't make sense
That's not good use of your Missouri has a different way of
looking at things, and the whole issue of just cause was wide open until just this last session. Nobody ever said the guys that are running the state law - they don't have an aptitude test, you know, before they get that. I've heard. I think that's pretty well true. Chief, I'd
love to discuss those things with you, but I think that subject to your getting some of that stuff that I asked for, I think pretty much I'm going to be done with you, and I appreciate your position right now. If there
is anybody in the FBI that - if this is all
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. done, and I still think I need additional step, I'd be willing to meet with somebody if they would meet with us. I have no idea. I know the newspaper has
called them, they have pled the City's case, they've told them about the turmoil that they've created, and they have not budged. simply don't know who you would talk to. Nobody in the local office. These are I
decisions being made by the bureau headquarters, not by the local people. like and trust almost every agent that I know, but as a bureaucracy the FBI is just I know, I've experienced them. we're done. Well, I think I
If something else pops in your
mind along the lines we've talked about we'll discuss them at your convenience. There is I
guess somewhere a hotline if there's any information that anybody talks to you that they'd like to give to me direct them to the hotline. I don't have the phone, but I know And that's
there's a line set up somewhere. where we're headed.
I think this Scearce
matter is not going to go any further than your information from what I can see, so we
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. either have enough or we don't. The information that he's referring to, you know, it's true that I gave those bullet points to the City Manager, but I don't think, frankly, they're the issue at hand. I
don't frankly believe that anybody cares what he did or didn't do 20 years ago. I think He
the issue at hand is what I've told you. has made it very clear on the air that he knew the stuff was going on, it was a criminal act.
And he has said repeatedly I
didn't know anything about it, and now he's saying he is. That's the issue. And,
frankly, that has nothing, except indirectly, to do with the FBI investigation. factual things that he has stated. Those are That's
not information that I would tell you is in an FBI file, I'm telling you what he said. Those are the issues. I just happen to have
a lot of other detail that certainly supports that, but I don't know how much more you go than a confession. Well, always has to be facts with a confession that are otherwise provable. you know, maybe we have enough. I don't And,
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED) know. Chief, thank you for your time and I If
appreciate loaning me one of your guys.
you can keep me with one guy or two guys or something and make it consistent. This guy
is a great guy, so - and let me tell you something. When I did Hannibal I had a crazy
lawyer on the other side - we're going to go off the record.
Lane Roberts
In Re:
Page 54
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF MISSOURI ss. COUNTY OF JASPER I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 5th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was examined. That examination was then taken by me by
steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith returned. I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of either party or of the attorney of either party, or otherwise interested in the event of this suit.
_________________________ SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Roberts, Lane - Testimony Transcript

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Roberts, Lane - Testimony Transcript

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Transcript of the Testimony of Lane Roberts

Date: November 5, 2013 Volume: I Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 13, 2013

Joplin Critical Investigation

JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

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Page 4 I N D E X Page/Line DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

Joplin Globe article

Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken (ph.) - phonetic

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bias one way or the other.

related and specifically directed to the performance of your official duties of

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Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fitness for office. You are entitled to all

a break let me know. cordially let me know.

at me I'll rephrase something. try to learn some information.

come about several times so we talk.

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And prior to me ever having a

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they were going to act.

So I found myself and

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Rohr knows is what I just told you.

I did not talk to Gary Shaw.

conveyed it to Mike Woolston. to Mike Woolston.

I did not talk

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Nothing has changed.

Police Chief that feels that he can't release

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I mean we could certainly have a

It's no different than it was with I know all kinds of stuff. I

can't release any of it because I don't have

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Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. anything to release. And anything I tell you

It's only the local component