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MENO by Plato Translated by Benjamin Jowett February, 1999 [Etext 1!

"#$ T%is etext was &re&ared by 'ue (ss)%er *ass)%ers+aia,net,au.NT/O012T.ON, T%is 0ialo3ue be3ins abru&tly wit% a 4uestion o5 Meno, w%o as6s, 7w%et%er 8irtue )an be tau3%t,7 'o)rates re&lies t%at %e does not as yet 6now w%at 8irtue is, and %as ne8er 6nown anyone w%o did, 7T%en %e )annot %a8e met 9or3ias w%en %e was at (t%ens,7 :es, 'o)rates %ad met %im, but %e %as a bad memory, and %as 5or3otten w%at 9or3ias said, ;ill Meno tell %im %is own notion, w%i)% is &robably not 8ery di55erent 5rom t%at o5 9or3ias< 7O yes==not%in3 easier> t%ere is t%e 8irtue o5 a man, o5 a woman, o5 an old man, and o5 a )%ild? t%ere is a 8irtue o5 e8ery a3e and state o5 li5e, all o5 w%i)% may be easily des)ribed,7 'o)rates reminds Meno t%at t%is is only an enumeration o5 t%e 8irtues and not a de5inition o5 t%e notion w%i)% is )ommon to t%em all, .n a se)ond attem&t Meno de5ines 8irtue to be 7t%e &ower o5 )ommand,7 But to t%is, a3ain, ex)e&tions are ta6en, For t%ere must be a 8irtue o5 t%ose w%o obey, as well as o5 t%ose w%o )ommand? and t%e &ower o5 )ommand must be justly or not unjustly exer)ised, Meno is 8ery ready to admit t%at justi)e is 8irtue> 7;ould you say 8irtue or a 8irtue, 5or t%ere are ot%er 8irtues, su)% as )oura3e, tem&eran)e, and t%e li6e? just as round is a 5i3ure, and bla)6 and w%ite are )olours, and yet t%ere are ot%er 5i3ures and ot%er )olours, @et Meno ta6e t%e exam&les o5 5i3ure and )olour, and try to de5ine t%em,7 Meno )on5esses %is inability, and a5ter a &ro)ess o5 interro3ation, in w%i)% 'o)rates ex&lains to %im t%e nature o5 a 7simile in multis,7 'o)rates %imsel5 de5ines 5i3ure as 7t%e a))om&animent o5 )olour,7 But some one may obje)t t%at %e does not 6now t%e meanin3 o5 t%e word 7)olour?7 and i5 %e is a )andid 5riend, and not a mere dis&utant, 'o)rates

is willin3 to 5urnis% %im wit% a sim&ler and more &%iloso&%i)al de5inition, into w%i)% no dis&uted word is allowed to intrude> 7Fi3ure is t%e limit o5 5orm,7 Meno im&eriously insists t%at %e must still %a8e a de5inition o5 )olour, 'ome raillery 5ollows? and at len3t% 'o)rates is indu)ed to re&ly, 7t%at )olour is t%e e55luen)e o5 5orm, sensible, and in due &ro&ortion to t%e si3%t,7 T%is de5inition is exa)tly suited to t%e taste o5 Meno, w%o wel)omes t%e 5amiliar lan3ua3e o5 9or3ias and Em&edo)les, 'o)rates is o5 o&inion t%at t%e more abstra)t or diale)ti)al de5inition o5 5i3ure is 5ar better, Now t%at Meno %as been made to understand t%e nature o5 a 3eneral de5inition, %e answers in t%e s&irit o5 a 9ree6 3entleman, and in t%e words o5 a &oet, 7t%at 8irtue is to deli3%t in t%in3s %onourable, and to %a8e t%e &ower o5 3ettin3 t%em,7 T%is is a nearer a&&roximation t%an %e %as yet made to a )om&lete de5inition, and, re3arded as a &ie)e o5 &ro8erbial or &o&ular morality, is not 5ar 5rom t%e trut%, But t%e obje)tion is ur3ed, 7t%at t%e %onourable is t%e 3ood,7 and as e8ery one e4ually desires t%e 3ood, t%e &oint o5 t%e de5inition is )ontained in t%e words, 7t%e &ower o5 3ettin3 t%em,7 7(nd t%ey must be 3ot justly or wit% justi)e,7 T%e de5inition will t%en stand t%us> 7Airtue is t%e &ower o5 3ettin3 3ood wit% justi)e,7 But justi)e is a &art o5 8irtue, and t%ere5ore 8irtue is t%e 3ettin3 o5 3ood wit% a &art o5 8irtue, T%e de5inition re&eats t%e word de5ined, Meno )om&lains t%at t%e )on8ersation o5 'o)rates %as t%e e55e)t o5 a tor&edo7s s%o)6 u&on %im, ;%en %e tal6s wit% ot%er &ersons %e %as &lenty to say about 8irtue? in t%e &resen)e o5 'o)rates, %is t%ou3%ts desert %im, 'o)rates re&lies t%at %e is only t%e )ause o5 &er&lexity in ot%ers, be)ause %e is %imsel5 &er&lexed, Be &ro&oses to )ontinue t%e en4uiry, But %ow, as6s Meno, )an %e en4uire eit%er into w%at %e 6nows or into w%at %e does not 6now< T%is is a so&%isti)al &uCCle, w%i)%, as 'o)rates remar6s, sa8es a 3reat deal o5 trouble to %im w%o a))e&ts it, But t%e &uCCle %as a real di55i)ulty latent under it, to w%i)% 'o)rates will endea8our to 5ind a re&ly, T%e di55i)ulty is t%e ori3in o5 6nowled3e>== Be %as %eard 5rom &riests and &riestesses, and 5rom t%e &oet Pindar, o5 an immortal soul w%i)% is born a3ain and a3ain in su))essi8e &eriods o5 existen)e, returnin3 into t%is world w%en s%e %as &aid t%e &enalty o5 an)ient )rime, and, %a8in3 wandered o8er all &la)es o5 t%e u&&er and under world, and seen and 6nown all t%in3s at one time or ot%er, is by

asso)iation out o5 one t%in3 )a&able o5 re)o8erin3 all, For nature is o5 one 6indred? and e8ery soul %as a seed or 3erm w%i)% may be de8elo&ed into all 6nowled3e, T%e existen)e o5 t%is latent 6nowled3e is 5urt%er &ro8ed by t%e interro3ation o5 one o5 Meno7s sla8es, w%o, in t%e s6il5ul %ands o5 'o)rates, is made to a)6nowled3e some elementary relations o5 3eometri)al 5i3ures, T%e t%eorem t%at t%e s4uare o5 t%e dia3onal is double t%e s4uare o5 t%e side==t%at 5amous dis)o8ery o5 &rimiti8e mat%emati)s, in %onour o5 w%i)% t%e le3endary Pyt%a3oras is said to %a8e sa)ri5i)ed a %e)atomb==is eli)ited 5rom %im, T%e 5irst ste& in t%e &ro)ess o5 tea)%in3 %as made %im )ons)ious o5 %is own i3noran)e, Be %as %ad t%e 7tor&edo7s s%o)67 3i8en %im, and is t%e better 5or t%e o&eration, But w%en)e %ad t%e unedu)ated man t%is 6nowled3e< Be %ad ne8er learnt 3eometry in t%is world? nor was it born wit% %im? %e must t%ere5ore %a8e %ad it w%en %e was not a man, (nd as %e always eit%er was or was not a man, %e must %a8e always %ad it, D2om&are P%aedo,E (5ter 'o)rates %as 3i8en t%is s&e)imen o5 t%e true nature o5 tea)%in3, t%e ori3inal 4uestion o5 t%e tea)%ableness o5 8irtue is renewed, (3ain %e &ro5esses a desire to 6now 7w%at 8irtue is7 5irst, But %e is willin3 to ar3ue t%e 4uestion, as mat%emati)ians say, under an %y&ot%esis, Be will assume t%at i5 8irtue is 6nowled3e, t%en 8irtue )an be tau3%t, DT%is was t%e sta3e o5 t%e ar3ument at w%i)% t%e Prota3oras )on)luded,E 'o)rates %as no di55i)ulty in s%owin3 t%at 8irtue is a 3ood, and t%at 3oods, w%et%er o5 body or mind, must be under t%e dire)tion o5 6nowled3e, 1&on t%e assum&tion just made, t%en, 8irtue is tea)%able, But w%ere are t%e tea)%ers< T%ere are none to be 5ound, T%is is extremely dis)oura3in3, Airtue is no sooner dis)o8ered to be tea)%able, t%an t%e dis)o8ery 5ollows t%at it is not tau3%t, Airtue, t%ere5ore, is and is not tea)%able, .n t%is dilemma an a&&eal is made to (nytus, a res&e)table and well=to=do )itiCen o5 t%e old s)%ool, and a 5amily 5riend o5 Meno, w%o %a&&ens to be &resent, Be is as6ed 7w%et%er Meno s%all 3o to t%e 'o&%ists and be tau3%t,7 T%e su33estion t%rows %im into a ra3e, 7To w%om, t%en, s%all Meno 3o<7 as6s 'o)rates, To any (t%enian 3entleman==to t%e 3reat (t%enian statesmen o5 &ast times, 'o)rates re&lies %ere, as elsew%ere D@a)%es, Prot,E, t%at T%emisto)les, Peri)les, and ot%er 3reat men, %ad sons to w%om t%ey would surely, i5 t%ey )ould %a8e done so, %a8e im&arted t%eir own &oliti)al wisdom? but no one e8er %eard t%at t%ese sons o5 t%eirs were remar6able 5or anyt%in3 ex)e&t ridin3 and wrestlin3 and similar

a))om&lis%ments, (nytus is an3ry at t%e im&utation w%i)% is )ast on %is 5a8ourite statesmen, and on a )lass to w%i)% %e su&&oses %imsel5 to belon3? %e brea6s o55 wit% a si3ni5i)ant %int, T%e mention o5 anot%er o&&ortunity o5 tal6in3 wit% %im, and t%e su33estion t%at Meno may do t%e (t%enian &eo&le a ser8i)e by &a)i5yin3 %im, are e8ident allusions to t%e trial o5 'o)rates, 'o)rates returns to t%e )onsideration o5 t%e 4uestion 7w%et%er 8irtue is tea)%able,7 w%i)% was denied on t%e 3round t%at t%ere are no tea)%ers o5 it> D5or t%e 'o&%ists are bad tea)%ers, and t%e rest o5 t%e world do not &ro5ess to tea)%E, But t%ere is anot%er &oint w%i)% we 5ailed to obser8e, and in w%i)% 9or3ias %as ne8er instru)ted Meno, nor Prodi)us 'o)rates, T%is is t%e nature o5 ri3%t o&inion, For 8irtue may be under t%e 3uidan)e o5 ri3%t o&inion as well as o5 6nowled3e? and ri3%t o&inion is 5or &ra)ti)al &ur&oses as 3ood as 6nowled3e, but is in)a&able o5 bein3 tau3%t, and is also liable, li6e t%e ima3es o5 0aedalus, to 7wal6 o55,7 be)ause not bound by t%e tie o5 t%e )ause, T%is is t%e sort o5 instin)t w%i)% is &ossessed by statesmen, w%o are not wise or 6nowin3 &ersons, but only ins&ired or di8ine, T%e %i3%er 8irtue, w%i)% is identi)al wit% 6nowled3e, is an ideal only, .5 t%e statesman %ad t%is 6nowled3e, and )ould tea)% w%at %e 6new, %e would be li6e Tiresias in t%e world below,==7%e alone %as wisdom, but t%e rest 5lit li6e s%adows,7 T%is 0ialo3ue is an attem&t to answer t%e 4uestion, 2an 8irtue be tau3%t< No one would eit%er as6 or answer su)% a 4uestion in modern times, But in t%e a3e o5 'o)rates it was only by an e55ort t%at t%e mind )ould rise to a 3eneral notion o5 8irtue as distin)t 5rom t%e &arti)ular 8irtues o5 )oura3e, liberality, and t%e li6e, (nd w%en a %aCy )on)e&tion o5 t%is ideal was attained, it was only by a 5urt%er e55ort t%at t%e 4uestion o5 t%e tea)%ableness o5 8irtue )ould be resol8ed, T%e answer w%i)% is 3i8en by Plato is &aradoxi)al enou3%, and seems rat%er intended to stimulate t%an to satis5y en4uiry, Airtue is 6nowled3e, and t%ere5ore 8irtue )an be tau3%t, But 8irtue is not tau3%t, and t%ere5ore in t%is %i3%er and ideal sense t%ere is no 8irtue and no 6nowled3e, T%e tea)%in3 o5 t%e 'o&%ists is )on5essedly inade4uate, and Meno, w%o is t%eir &u&il, is i3norant o5 t%e 8ery nature o5 3eneral terms, Be )an only &rodu)e out o5 t%eir armoury t%e so&%ism, 7t%at you )an neit%er en4uire into w%at you 6now nor into w%at you do not 6now?7 to w%i)% 'o)rates re&lies by %is t%eory o5 reminis)en)e,

To t%e do)trine t%at 8irtue is 6nowled3e, Plato %as been )onstantly tendin3 in t%e &re8ious 0ialo3ues, But t%e new trut% is no sooner 5ound t%an it 8anis%es away, 7.5 t%ere is 6nowled3e, t%ere must be tea)%ers? and w%ere are t%e tea)%ers<7 T%ere is no 6nowled3e in t%e %i3%er sense o5 systemati), )onne)ted, reasoned 6nowled3e, su)% as may one day be attained, and su)% as Plato %imsel5 seems to see in some 5ar o55 8ision o5 a sin3le s)ien)e, (nd t%ere are no tea)%ers in t%e %i3%er sense o5 t%e word? t%at is to say, no real tea)%ers w%o will arouse t%e s&irit o5 en4uiry in t%eir &u&ils, and not merely instru)t t%em in r%etori) or im&art to t%em ready= made in5ormation 5or a 5ee o5 7one7 or o5 75i5ty dra)%ms,7 Plato is desirous o5 dee&enin3 t%e notion o5 edu)ation, and t%ere5ore %e asserts t%e &aradox t%at t%ere are no edu)ators, T%is &aradox, t%ou3% di55erent in 5orm, is not really di55erent 5rom t%e remar6 w%i)% is o5ten made in modern times by t%ose w%o would de&re)iate eit%er t%e met%ods o5 edu)ation )ommonly em&loyed, or t%e standard attained==t%at 7t%ere is no true edu)ation amon3 us,7 T%ere remains still a &ossibility w%i)% must not be o8erloo6ed, E8en i5 t%ere be no true 6nowled3e, as is &ro8ed by 7t%e wret)%ed state o5 edu)ation,7 t%ere may be ri3%t o&inion, w%i)% is a sort o5 3uessin3 or di8ination restin3 on no 6nowled3e o5 )auses, and in)ommuni)able to ot%ers, T%is is t%e 3i5t w%i)% our statesmen %a8e, as is &ro8ed by t%e )ir)umstan)e t%at t%ey are unable to im&art t%eir 6nowled3e to t%eir sons, T%ose w%o are &ossessed o5 it )annot be said to be men o5 s)ien)e or &%iloso&%ers, but t%ey are ins&ired and di8ine, T%ere may be some tra)e o5 irony in t%is )urious &assa3e, w%i)% 5orms t%e )on)ludin3 &ortion o5 t%e 0ialo3ue, But Plato )ertainly does not mean to intimate t%at t%e su&ernatural or di8ine is t%e true basis o5 %uman li5e, To %im 6nowled3e, i5 only attainable in t%is world, is o5 all t%in3s t%e most di8ine, :et, li6e ot%er &%iloso&%ers, %e is willin3 to admit t%at 7&robability is t%e 3uide o5 li5e DButler7s (nalo3y,E?7 and %e is at t%e same time desirous o5 )ontrastin3 t%e wisdom w%i)% 3o8erns t%e world wit% a%i3%er wisdom, T%ere are many instin)ts, jud3ments, and anti)i&ations o5 t%e %uman mind w%i)% )annot be redu)ed to rule, and o5 w%i)% t%e 3rounds )annot always be 3i8en in words, ( &erson may %a8e some s6ill or latent ex&erien)e w%i)% %e is able to use %imsel5 and is yet unable to tea)%

ot%ers, be)ause %e %as no &rin)i&les, and is in)a&able o5 )olle)tin3 or arran3in3 %is ideas, Be %as &ra)ti)e, but not t%eory? art, but not s)ien)e, T%is is a true 5a)t o5 &sy)%olo3y, w%i)% is re)o3niCed by Plato in t%is &assa3e, But %e is 5ar 5rom sayin3, as some %a8e ima3ined, t%at ins&iration or di8ine 3ra)e is to be re3arded as %i3%er t%an 6nowled3e, Be would not %a8e &re5erred t%e &oet or man o5 a)tion to t%e &%iloso&%er, or t%e 8irtue o5 )ustom to t%e 8irtue based u&on ideas, (lso %ere, as in t%e .on and P%aedrus, Plato a&&ears to a)6nowled3e an unreasonin3 element in t%e %i3%er nature o5 man, T%e &%iloso&%er only %as 6nowled3e, and yet t%e statesman and t%e &oet are ins&ired, T%ere may be a sort o5 irony in re3ardin3 in t%is way t%e 3i5ts o5 3enius, But t%ere is no reason to su&&ose t%at %e is deridin3 t%em, any more t%an %e is deridin3 t%e &%enomena o5 lo8e or o5 ent%usiasm in t%e 'ym&osium, or o5 ora)les in t%e (&olo3y, or o5 di8ine intimations w%en %e is s&ea6in3 o5 t%e daemonium o5 'o)rates, Be re)o3niCes t%e lower 5orm o5 ri3%t o&inion, as well as t%e %i3%er one o5 s)ien)e, in t%e s&irit o5 one w%o desires to in)lude in %is &%iloso&%y e8ery as&e)t o5 %uman li5e? just as %e re)o3niCes t%e existen)e o5 &o&ular o&inion as a 5a)t, and t%e 'o&%ists as t%e ex&ression o5 it, T%is 0ialo3ue )ontains t%e 5irst intimation o5 t%e do)trine o5 reminis)en)e and o5 t%e immortality o5 t%e soul, T%e &roo5 is 8ery sli3%t, e8en sli3%ter t%an in t%e P%aedo and /e&ubli), Be)ause men %ad abstra)t ideas in a &re8ious state, t%ey must %a8e always %ad t%em, and t%eir souls t%ere5ore must %a8e always existed, For t%ey must always %a8e been eit%er men or not men, T%e 5alla)y o5 t%e latter words is trans&arent, (nd 'o)rates %imsel5 a&&ears to be )ons)ious o5 t%eir wea6ness? 5or %e adds immediately a5terwards, 7. %a8e said some t%in3s o5 w%i)% . am not alto3et%er )on5ident,7 D2om&are P%aedo,E .t may be obser8ed, %owe8er, t%at t%e 5an)i5ul notion o5 &re=existen)e is )ombined wit% a true but &artial 8iew o5 t%e ori3in and unity o5 6nowled3e, and o5 t%e asso)iation o5 ideas, Fnowled3e is &rior to any &arti)ular 6nowled3e, and exists not in t%e &re8ious state o5 t%e indi8idual, but o5 t%e ra)e, .t is &otential, not a)tual, and )an only be a&&ro&riated by strenuous exertion, T%e idealism o5 Plato is %ere &resented in a less de8elo&ed 5orm t%an in t%e P%aedo and P%aedrus, Not%in3 is said o5 t%e &re=existen)e o5 ideas o5 justi)e, tem&eran)e, and t%e li6e, Nor is 'o)rates &ositi8e o5 anyt%in3 but t%e duty o5 en4uiry, T%e do)trine o5 reminis)en)e too is ex&lained more in a))ordan)e wit% 5a)t and ex&erien)e as arisin3 out o5 t%e

a55inities o5 nature Date tes t%useos oles su33enous ousesE, Modern &%iloso&%y says t%at all t%in3s in nature are de&endent on one anot%er? t%e an)ient &%iloso&%er %ad t%e same trut% latent in %is mind w%en %e a55irmed t%at out o5 one t%in3 all t%e rest may be re)o8ered, T%e subje)ti8e was )on8erted by %im into an obje)ti8e? t%e mental &%enomenon o5 t%e asso)iation o5 ideas D)om&are P%aedoE be)ame a real )%ain o5 existen)es, T%e 3erms o5 two 8aluable &rin)i&les o5 edu)ation may also be 3at%ered 5rom t%e 7words o5 &riests and &riestesses>7 D1E t%at true 6nowled3e is a 6nowled3e o5 )auses D)om&are (ristotle7s t%eory o5 e&istemeE? and DGE t%at t%e &ro)ess o5 learnin3 )onsists not in w%at is brou3%t to t%e learner, but in w%at is drawn out o5 %im, 'ome lesser &oints o5 t%e dialo3ue may be noted, su)% as D1E t%e a)ute obser8ation t%at Meno &re5ers t%e 5amiliar de5inition, w%i)% is embellis%ed wit% &oeti)al lan3ua3e, to t%e better and truer one? or DGE t%e s%rewd re5le)tion, w%i)% may admit o5 an a&&li)ation to modern as well as to an)ient tea)%ers, t%at t%e 'o&%ists %a8in3 made lar3e 5ortunes? t%is must surely be a )riterion o5 t%eir &owers o5 tea)%in3, 5or t%at no man )ould 3et a li8in3 by s%oema6in3 w%o was not a 3ood s%oema6er? or D#E t%e remar6 )on8eyed, almost in a word, t%at t%e 8erbal s)e&ti) is sa8ed t%e labour o5 t%ou3%t and en4uiry Douden dei to toiouto CeteseosE, 2%ara)teristi) also o5 t%e tem&er o5 t%e 'o)rati) en4uiry is, D"E t%e &ro&osal to dis)uss t%e tea)%ableness o5 8irtue under an %y&ot%esis, a5ter t%e manner o5 t%e mat%emati)ians? and DHE t%e re&etition o5 t%e 5a8ourite do)trine w%i)% o))urs so 5re4uently in t%e earlier and more 'o)rati) 0ialo3ues, and 3i8es a )olour to all o5 t%em==t%at man6ind only desire e8il t%rou3% i3noran)e? D!E t%e ex&eriment o5 eli)itin3 5rom t%e sla8e=boy t%e mat%emati)al trut% w%i)% is latent in %im, and DIE t%e remar6 t%at %e is all t%e better 5or 6nowin3 %is i3noran)e, T%e )%ara)ter o5 Meno, li6e t%at o5 2ritias, %as no relation to t%e a)tual )ir)umstan)es o5 %is li5e, Plato is silent about %is trea)%ery to t%e ten t%ousand 9ree6s, w%i)% Jeno&%on %as re)orded, as %e is also silent about t%e )rimes o5 2ritias, Be is a T%essalian (l)ibiades, ri)% and luxurious== a s&oilt )%ild o5 5ortune, and is des)ribed as t%e %ereditary 5riend o5 t%e 3reat 6in3, @i6e (l)ibiades %e is ins&ired wit% an ardent desire o5 6nowled3e, and is e4ually willin3 to learn o5 'o)rates and o5 t%e 'o&%ists, Be may be re3arded as standin3 in t%e same relation to 9or3ias as

Bi&&o)rates in t%e Prota3oras to t%e ot%er 3reat 'o&%ist, Be is t%e so&%isti)ated yout% on w%om 'o)rates tries %is )ross=examinin3 &owers, just as in t%e 2%armides, t%e @ysis, and t%e Eut%ydemus, in3enuous boy%ood is made t%e subje)t o5 a similar ex&eriment, Be is treated by 'o)rates in a %al5=&lay5ul manner suited to %is )%ara)ter? at t%e same time %e a&&ears not 4uite to understand t%e &ro)ess to w%i)% %e is bein3 subje)ted, For %e is ex%ibited as i3norant o5 t%e 8ery elements o5 diale)ti)s, in w%i)% t%e 'o&%ists %a8e 5ailed to instru)t t%eir dis)i&le, Bis de5inition o5 8irtue as 7t%e &ower and desire o5 attainin3 t%in3s %onourable,7 li6e t%e 5irst de5inition o5 justi)e in t%e /e&ubli), is ta6en 5rom a &oet, Bis answers %a8e a so&%isti)al rin3, and at t%e same time s%ow t%e so&%isti)al in)a&a)ity to 3ras& a 3eneral notion, (nytus is t%e ty&e o5 t%e narrow=minded man o5 t%e world, w%o is indi3nant at inno8ation, and e4ually detests t%e &o&ular tea)%er and t%e true &%iloso&%er, Be seems, li6e (risto&%anes, to re3ard t%e new o&inions, w%et%er o5 'o)rates or t%e 'o&%ists, as 5atal to (t%enian 3reatness, Be is o5 t%e same )lass as 2alli)les in t%e 9or3ias, but o5 a di55erent 8ariety? t%e immoral and so&%isti)al do)trines o5 2alli)les are not attributed to %im, T%e moderation wit% w%i)% %e is des)ribed is remar6able, i5 %e be t%e a))user o5 'o)rates, as is a&&arently indi)ated by %is &artin3 words, Per%a&s Plato may %a8e been desirous o5 s%owin3 t%at t%e a))usation o5 'o)rates was not to be attributed to badness or male8olen)e, but rat%er to a tenden)y in men7s minds, Or %e may %a8e been re3ardless o5 t%e %istori)al trut% o5 t%e )%ara)ters o5 %is dialo3ue, as in t%e )ase o5 Meno and 2ritias, @i6e 2%aere&%on D(&ol,E t%e real (nytus was a demo)rat, and %ad joined T%rasybulus in t%e )on5li)t wit% t%e t%irty, T%e Prota3oras arri8ed at a sort o5 %y&ot%eti)al )on)lusion, t%at i5 78irtue is 6nowled3e, it )an be tau3%t,7 .n t%e Eut%ydemus, 'o)rates %imsel5 o55ered an exam&le o5 t%e manner in w%i)% t%e true tea)%er may drawout t%e mind o5 yout%? t%is was in )ontrast to t%e 4uibblin3 5ollies o5 t%e 'o&%ists, .n t%e Meno t%e subje)t is more de8elo&ed? t%e 5oundations o5 t%e en4uiry are laid dee&er, and t%e nature o5 6nowled3e is more distin)tly ex&lained, T%ere is a &ro3ression by anta3onism o5 two o&&osite as&e)ts o5 &%iloso&%y, But at t%e moment w%en we a&&roa)% nearest, t%e trut% doubles u&on us and &asses out o5 our rea)%, ;e seem to 5ind t%at t%e ideal o5 6nowled3e is irre)on)ilable wit% ex&erien)e, .n %uman li5e t%ere is indeed t%e &ro5ession o5 6nowled3e, but ri3%t o&inion is our a)tual 3uide, T%ere is anot%er sort o5 &ro3ress 5rom t%e 3eneral notions o5 'o)rates, w%o as6ed

sim&ly, 7w%at is 5riends%i&<7 7w%at is tem&eran)e<7 7w%at is )oura3e<7 as in t%e @ysis, 2%armides, @a)%es, to t%e trans)endentalism o5 Plato, w%o, in t%e se)ond sta3e o5 %is &%iloso&%y, sou3%t to 5ind t%e nature o5 6nowled3e in a &rior and 5uture state o5 existen)e, T%e di55i)ulty in 5ramin3 3eneral notions w%i)% %as a&&eared in t%is and in all t%e &re8ious 0ialo3ues re)urs in t%e 9or3ias and T%eaetetus as well as in t%e /e&ubli), .n t%e 9or3ias too t%e statesmen rea&&ear, but in stron3er o&&osition to t%e &%iloso&%er, T%ey are no lon3er allowed to %a8e a di8ine insi3%t, but, t%ou3% a)6nowled3ed to %a8e been )le8er men and 3ood s&ea6ers, are denoun)ed as 7blind leaders o5 t%e blind,7 T%e do)trine o5 t%e immortality o5 t%e soul is also )arried 5urt%er, bein3 made t%e 5oundation not only o5 a t%eory o5 6nowled3e, but o5 a do)trine o5 rewards and &unis%ments, .n t%e /e&ubli) t%e relation o5 6nowled3e to 8irtue is des)ribed in a manner more )onsistent wit% modern distin)tions, T%e existen)e o5 t%e 8irtues wit%out t%e &ossession o5 6nowled3e in t%e %i3%er or &%iloso&%i)al sense is admitted to be &ossible, /i3%t o&inion is a3ain introdu)ed in t%e T%eaetetus as an a))ount o5 6nowled3e, but is reje)ted on t%e 3round t%at it is irrational Das %ere, be)ause it is not bound by t%e tie o5 t%e )auseE, and also be)ause t%e )on)e&tion o5 5alse o&inion is 3i8en u& as %o&eless, T%e do)trines o5 Plato are ne)essarily di55erent at di55erent times o5 %is li5e, as new distin)tions are realiCed, or new sta3es o5 t%ou3%t attained by %im, ;e are not t%ere5ore justi5ied, in order to ta6e away t%e a&&earan)e o5 in)onsisten)y, in attributin3 to %im %idden meanin3s or remote allusions, T%ere are no external )riteria by w%i)% we )an determine t%e date o5 t%e Meno, T%ere is no reason to su&&ose t%at any o5 t%e 0ialo3ues o5 Plato were written be5ore t%e deat% o5 'o)rates? t%e Meno, w%i)% a&&ears to be one o5 t%e earliest o5 t%em, is &ro8ed to %a8e been o5 a later date by t%e allusion o5 (nytus, ;e )annot ar3ue t%at Plato was more li6ely to %a8e written, as %e %as done, o5 Meno be5ore t%an a5ter %is miserable deat%? 5or we %a8e already seen, in t%e exam&les o5 2%armides and 2ritias, t%at t%e )%ara)ters in Plato are 8ery 5ar 5rom resemblin3 t%e same )%ara)ters in %istory, T%e re&ulsi8e &i)ture w%i)% is 3i8en o5 %im in t%e (nabasis o5 Jeno&%on, w%ere %e also a&&ears as t%e 5riend o5 (risti&&us 7and a 5air yout% %a8in3 lo8ers,7 %as no ot%er trait o5 li6eness to t%e Meno o5 Plato,

T%e &la)e o5 t%e Meno in t%e series is doubt5ully indi)ated by internal e8iden)e, T%e main )%ara)ter o5 t%e 0ialo3ue is 'o)rates? but to t%e 73eneral de5initions7 o5 'o)rates is added t%e Platoni) do)trine o5 reminis)en)e, T%e &roblems o5 8irtue and 6nowled3e %a8e been dis)ussed in t%e @ysis, @a)%es, 2%armides, and Prota3oras? t%e &uCCle about 6nowin3 and learnin3 %as already a&&eared in t%e Eut%ydemus, T%e do)trines o5 immortality and &re=existen)e are )arried 5urt%er in t%e P%aedrus and P%aedo? t%e distin)tion between o&inion and 6nowled3e is more 5ully de8elo&ed in t%e T%eaetetus, T%e lessons o5 Prodi)us, w%om %e 5a)etiously )alls %is master, are still runnin3 in t%e mind o5 'o)rates, 1nli6e t%e later Platoni) 0ialo3ues, t%e Meno arri8es at no )on)lusion, Ben)e we are led to &la)e t%e 0ialo3ue at some &oint o5 time later t%an t%e Prota3oras, and earlier t%an t%e P%aedrus and 9or3ias, T%e &la)e w%i)% is assi3ned to it in t%is wor6 is due mainly to t%e desire to brin3 to3et%er in a sin3le 8olume all t%e 0ialo3ues w%i)% )ontain allusions to t%e trial and deat% o5 'o)rates, ,,, ON TBE .0E(' OF P@(TO, Plato7s do)trine o5 ideas %as attained an ima3inary )learness and de5initeness w%i)% is not to be 5ound in %is own writin3s, T%e &o&ular a))ount o5 t%em is &artly deri8ed 5rom one or two &assa3es in %is 0ialo3ues inter&reted wit%out re3ard to t%eir &oeti)al en8ironment, .t is due also to t%e misunderstandin3 o5 %im by t%e (ristotelian s)%ool? and t%e erroneous notion %as been 5urt%er narrowed and %as be)ome 5ixed by t%e realism o5 t%e s)%oolmen, T%is &o&ular 8iew o5 t%e Platoni) ideas may be summed u& in some su)% 5ormula as t%e 5ollowin3> 7Trut% )onsists not in &arti)ulars, but in uni8ersals, w%i)% %a8e a &la)e in t%e mind o5 9od, or in some 5ar=o55 %ea8en, T%ese were re8ealed to men in a 5ormer state o5 existen)e, and are re)o8ered by reminis)en)e DanamnesisE or asso)iation 5rom sensible t%in3s, T%e sensible t%in3s are not realities, but s%adows only, in relation to t%e trut%,7 T%ese unmeanin3 &ro&ositions are %ardly sus&e)ted to be a )ari)ature o5 a 3reat t%eory o5 6nowled3e, w%i)% Plato in 8arious ways and under many 5i3ures o5 s&ee)% is see6in3 to un5old, Poetry %as been )on8erted into do3ma? and it is not remar6ed t%at t%e Platoni) ideas are to be 5ound only in about a t%ird o5 Plato7s writin3s and are not

)on5ined to %im, T%e 5orms w%i)% t%ey assume are numerous, and i5 ta6en literally, in)onsistent wit% one anot%er, (t one time we are in t%e )louds o5 myt%olo3y, at anot%er amon3 t%e abstra)tions o5 mat%emati)s or meta&%ysi)s? we &ass im&er)e&tibly 5rom one to t%e ot%er, /eason and 5an)y are min3led in t%e same &assa3e, T%e ideas are sometimes des)ribed as many, )oextensi8e wit% t%e uni8ersals o5 sense and also wit% t%e 5irst &rin)i&les o5 et%i)s? or a3ain t%ey are absorbed into t%e sin3le idea o5 3ood, and subordinated to it, T%ey are not more )ertain t%an 5a)ts, but t%ey are e4ually )ertain DP%aedoE, T%ey are bot% &ersonal and im&ersonal, T%ey are abstra)t terms> t%ey are also t%e )auses o5 t%in3s? and t%ey are e8en trans5ormed into t%e demons or s&irits by w%ose %el& 9od made t%e world, (nd t%e idea o5 3ood D/e&ubli)E may wit%out 8iolen)e be )on8erted into t%e 'u&reme Bein3, w%o 7be)ause Be was 3ood7 )reated all t%in3s DTim,E, .t would be a mista6e to try and re)on)ile t%ese di55erin3 modes o5 t%ou3%t, T%ey are not to be re3arded seriously as %a8in3 a distin)t meanin3, T%ey are &arables, &ro&%e)ies, myt%s, symbols, re8elations, as&irations a5ter an un6nown world, T%ey deri8e t%eir ori3in 5rom a dee& reli3ious and )ontem&lati8e 5eelin3, and also 5rom an obser8ation o5 )urious mental &%enomena, T%ey 3at%er u& t%e elements o5 t%e &re8ious &%iloso&%ies, w%i)% t%ey &ut to3et%er in a new 5orm, T%eir 3reat di8ersity s%ows t%e tentati8e )%ara)ter o5 early endea8ours to t%in6, T%ey %a8e not yet settled down into a sin3le system, Plato uses t%em, t%ou3% %e also )riti)ises t%em? %e a)6nowled3es t%at bot% %e and ot%ers are always tal6in3 about t%em, es&e)ially about t%e .dea o5 9ood? and t%at t%ey are not &e)uliar to %imsel5 DP%aedo? /e&ubli)? 'o&%,E, But in %is later writin3s %e seems to %a8e laid aside t%e old 5orms o5 t%em, (s %e &ro)eeds %e ma6es 5or %imsel5 new modes o5 ex&ression more a6in to t%e (ristotelian lo3i), :et amid all t%ese 8arieties and in)on3ruities, t%ere is a )ommon meanin3 or s&irit w%i)% &er8ades %is writin3s, bot% t%ose in w%i)% %e treats o5 t%e ideas and t%ose in w%i)% %e is silent about t%em, T%is is t%e s&irit o5 idealism, w%i)% in t%e %istory o5 &%iloso&%y %as %ad many names and ta6en many 5orms, and %as in a measure in5luen)ed t%ose w%o seemed to be most a8erse to it, .t %as o5ten been )%ar3ed wit% in)onsisten)y and 5an)i5ulness, and yet %as %ad an ele8atin3 e55e)t on %uman nature, and %as exer)ised a wonder5ul )%arm and interest o8er a 5ew s&irits w%o %a8e been lost in t%e t%ou3%t o5 it, .t %as been banis%ed a3ain and a3ain, but %as

always returned, .t %as attem&ted to lea8e t%e eart% and soar %ea8enwards, but soon %as 5ound t%at only in ex&erien)e )ould any solid 5oundation o5 6nowled3e be laid, .t %as de3enerated into &ant%eism, but %as a3ain emer3ed, No ot%er 6nowled3e %as 3i8en an e4ual stimulus to t%e mind, .t is t%e s)ien)e o5 s)ien)es, w%i)% are also ideas, and under eit%er as&e)t re4uire to be de5ined, T%ey )an only be t%ou3%t o5 in due &ro&ortion w%en )on)ei8ed in relation to one anot%er, T%ey are t%e 3lasses t%rou3% w%i)% t%e 6in3doms o5 s)ien)e are seen, but at a distan)e, (ll t%e 3reatest minds, ex)e&t w%en li8in3 in an a3e o5 rea)tion a3ainst t%em, %a8e un)ons)iously 5allen under t%eir &ower, T%e a))ount o5 t%e Platoni) ideas in t%e Meno is t%e sim&lest and )learest, and we s%all best illustrate t%eir nature by 3i8in3 t%is 5irst and t%en )om&arin3 t%e manner in w%i)% t%ey are des)ribed elsew%ere, e,3, in t%e P%aedrus, P%aedo, /e&ubli)? to w%i)% may be added t%e )riti)ism o5 t%em in t%e Parmenides, t%e &ersonal 5orm w%i)% is attributed to t%em in t%e Timaeus, t%e lo3i)al )%ara)ter w%i)% t%ey assume in t%e 'o&%ist and P%ilebus, and t%e allusion to t%em in t%e @aws, .n t%e 2ratylus t%ey dawn u&on %im wit% t%e 5res%ness o5 a newly=dis)o8ered t%ou3%t, T%e Meno 3oes ba)6 to a 5ormer state o5 existen)e, in w%i)% men did and su55ered 3ood and e8il, and re)ei8ed t%e reward or &unis%ment o5 t%em until t%eir sin was &ur3ed away and t%ey were allowed to return to eart%, T%is is a tradition o5 t%e olden time, to w%i)% &riests and &oets bear witness, T%e souls o5 men returnin3 to eart% brin3 ba)6 a latent memory o5 ideas, w%i)% were 6nown to t%em in a 5ormer state, T%e re)olle)tion is awa6ened into li5e and )ons)iousness by t%e si3%t o5 t%e t%in3s w%i)% resemble t%em on eart%, T%e soul e8idently &ossesses su)% innate ideas be5ore s%e %as %ad time to a)4uire t%em, T%is is &ro8ed by an ex&eriment tried on one o5 Meno7s sla8es, 5rom w%om 'o)rates eli)its trut%s o5 arit%meti) and 3eometry, w%i)% %e %ad ne8er learned in t%is world, Be must t%ere5ore %a8e brou3%t t%em wit% %im 5rom anot%er, T%e notion o5 a &re8ious state o5 existen)e is 5ound in t%e 8erses o5 Em&edo)les and in t%e 5ra3ments o5 Bera)leitus, .t was t%e natural answer to two 4uestions, 7;%en)e )ame t%e soul< ;%at is t%e ori3in o5 e8il<7 and &re8ailed 5ar and wide in t%e east, .t 5ound its way into Bellas &robably t%rou3% t%e medium o5 Or&%i) and Pyt%a3orean rites and mysteries, .t was easier to t%in6 o5 a 5ormer t%an o5 a 5uture li5e, be)ause su)% a li5e %as really existed 5or t%e ra)e t%ou3% not 5or t%e indi8idual, and all men )ome

into t%e world, i5 not 7trailin3 )louds o5 3lory,7 at any rate able to enter into t%e in%eritan)e o5 t%e &ast, .n t%e P%aedrus, as well as in t%e Meno, it is t%is 5ormer rat%er t%an a 5uture li5e on w%i)% Plato is dis&osed to dwell, T%ere t%e 9ods, and men 5ollowin3 in t%eir train, 3o 5ort% to )ontem&late t%e %ea8ens, and are borne round in t%e re8olutions o5 t%em, T%ere t%ey see t%e di8ine 5orms o5 justi)e, tem&eran)e, and t%e li6e, in t%eir un)%an3eable beauty, but not wit%out an e55ort more t%an %uman, T%e soul o5 man is li6ened to a )%arioteer and two steeds, one mortal, t%e ot%er immortal, T%e )%arioteer and t%e mortal steed are in 5ier)e )on5li)t? at len3t% t%e animal &rin)i&le is 5inally o8er&owered, t%ou3% not extin3uis%ed, by t%e )ombined ener3ies o5 t%e &assionate and rational elements, T%is is one o5 t%ose &assa3es in Plato w%i)%, &arta6in3 bot% o5 a &%iloso&%i)al and &oeti)al )%ara)ter, is ne)essarily indistin)t and in)onsistent, T%e ma3ni5i)ent 5i3ure under w%i)% t%e nature o5 t%e soul is des)ribed %as not mu)% to do wit% t%e &o&ular do)trine o5 t%e ideas, :et t%ere is one little trait in t%e des)ri&tion w%i)% s%ows t%at t%ey are &resent to Plato7s mind, namely, t%e remar6 t%at t%e soul, w%i)% %ad seen trut%s in t%e 5orm o5 t%e uni8ersal, )annot a3ain return to t%e nature o5 an animal, .n t%e P%aedo, as in t%e Meno, t%e ori3in o5 ideas is sou3%t 5or in a &re8ious state o5 existen)e, T%ere was no time w%en t%ey )ould %a8e been a)4uired in t%is li5e, and t%ere5ore t%ey must %a8e been re)o8ered 5rom anot%er, T%e &ro)ess o5 re)o8ery is no ot%er t%an t%e ordinary law o5 asso)iation, by w%i)% in daily li5e t%e si3%t o5 one t%in3 or &erson re)alls anot%er to our minds, and by w%i)% in s)ienti5i) en4uiry 5rom any &art o5 6nowled3e we may be led on to in5er t%e w%ole, .t is also ar3ued t%at ideas, or rat%er ideals, must be deri8ed 5rom a &re8ious state o5 existen)e be)ause t%ey are more &er5e)t t%an t%e sensible 5orms o5 t%em w%i)% are 3i8en by ex&erien)e, But in t%e P%aedo t%e do)trine o5 ideas is subordinate to t%e &roo5 o5 t%e immortality o5 t%e soul, 7.5 t%e soul existed in a &re8ious state, t%en it will exist in a 5uture state, 5or a law o5 alternation &er8ades all t%in3s,7 (nd, 7.5 t%e ideas exist, t%en t%e soul exists? i5 not, not,7 .t is to be obser8ed, bot% in t%e Meno and t%e P%aedo, t%at 'o)rates ex&resses %imsel5 wit% di55iden)e, Be s&ea6s in t%e P%aedo o5 t%e words wit% w%i)% %e %as )om5orted %imsel5 and %is 5riends, and will not be too )on5ident t%at t%e des)ri&tion w%i)% %e %as 3i8en o5 t%e soul and %er mansions is exa)tly true, but %e 78entures to t%in6 t%at somet%in3 o5 t%e 6ind is true,7 (nd in t%e Meno, a5ter dwellin3 u&on t%e immortality o5 t%e soul, %e adds, 7O5 some t%in3s w%i)% . %a8e

said . am not alto3et%er )on5ident7 D)om&are (&olo3y? 9or3iasE, From t%is )lass o5 un)ertainties %e exem&ts t%e di55eren)e between trut% and a&&earan)e, o5 w%i)% %e is absolutely )on8in)ed, .n t%e /e&ubli) t%e ideas are s&o6en o5 in two ways, w%i)% t%ou3% not )ontradi)tory are di55erent, .n t%e tent% boo6 t%ey are re&resented as t%e 3enera or 3eneral ideas under w%i)% indi8iduals %a8in3 a )ommon name are )ontained, For exam&le, t%ere is t%e bed w%i)% t%e )ar&enter ma6es, t%e &i)ture o5 t%e bed w%i)% is drawn by t%e &ainter, t%e bed existin3 in nature o5 w%i)% 9od is t%e aut%or, O5 t%e latter all 8isible beds are only t%e s%adows or re5le)tions, T%is and similar illustrations or ex&lanations are &ut 5ort%, not 5or t%eir own sa6e, or as an ex&osition o5 Plato7s t%eory o5 ideas, but wit% a 8iew o5 s%owin3 t%at &oetry and t%e mimeti) arts are )on)erned wit% an in5erior &art o5 t%e soul and a lower 6ind o5 6nowled3e, On t%e ot%er %and, in t%e !t% and It% boo6s o5 t%e /e&ubli) we rea)% t%e %i3%est and most &er5e)t )on)e&tion, w%i)% Plato is able to attain, o5 t%e nature o5 6nowled3e, T%e ideas are now 5inally seen to be one as well as many, )auses as well as ideas, and to %a8e a unity w%i)% is t%e idea o5 3ood and t%e )ause o5 all t%e rest, T%ey seem, %owe8er, to %a8e lost t%eir 5irst as&e)t o5 uni8ersals under w%i)% indi8iduals are )ontained, and to %a8e been )on8erted into 5orms o5 anot%er 6ind, w%i)% are in)onsistently re3arded 5rom t%e one side as ima3es or ideals o5 justi)e, tem&eran)e, %oliness and t%e li6e? 5rom t%e ot%er as %y&ot%eses, or mat%emati)al trut%s or &rin)i&les, .n t%e Timaeus, w%i)% in t%e series o5 Plato7s wor6s immediately 5ollows t%e /e&ubli), t%ou3% &robably written some time a5terwards, no mention o))urs o5 t%e do)trine o5 ideas, 9eometri)al 5orms and arit%meti)al ratios 5urnis% t%e laws a))ordin3 to w%i)% t%e world is )reated, But t%ou3% t%e )on)e&tion o5 t%e ideas as 3enera or s&e)ies is 5or3otten or laid aside, t%e distin)tion o5 t%e 8isible and intelle)tual is as 5irmly maintained as e8er, T%e .0E( o5 3ood li6ewise disa&&ears and is su&erseded by t%e )on)e&tion o5 a &ersonal 9od, w%o wor6s a))ordin3 to a 5inal )ause or &rin)i&le o5 3oodness w%i)% %e %imsel5 is, No doubt is ex&ressed by Plato, eit%er in t%e Timaeus or in any ot%er dialo3ue, o5 t%e trut%s w%i)% %e )on)ei8es to be t%e 5irst and %i3%est, .t is not t%e existen)e o5 9od or t%e idea o5 3ood w%i)% %e a&&roa)%es in a tentati8e or %esitatin3 manner, but t%e in8esti3ations o5 &%ysiolo3y, T%ese %e re3ards, not seriously, as a &art o5 &%iloso&%y, but as an inno)ent re)reation DTim,E,

Passin3 on to t%e Parmenides, we 5ind in t%at dialo3ue not an ex&osition or de5en)e o5 t%e do)trine o5 ideas, but an assault u&on t%em, w%i)% is &ut into t%e mout% o5 t%e 8eteran Parmenides, and mi3%t be as)ribed to (ristotle %imsel5, or to one o5 %is dis)i&les, T%e do)trine w%i)% is assailed ta6es two or t%ree 5orms, but 5ails in any o5 t%em to es)a&e t%e diale)ti)al di55i)ulties w%i)% are ur3ed a3ainst it, .t is admitted t%at t%ere are ideas o5 all t%in3s, but t%e manner in w%i)% indi8iduals &arta6e o5 t%em, w%et%er o5 t%e w%ole or o5 t%e &art, and in w%i)% t%ey be)ome li6e t%em, or %ow ideas )an be eit%er wit%in or wit%out t%e s&%ere o5 %uman 6nowled3e, or %ow t%e %uman and di8ine )an %a8e any relation to ea)% ot%er, is %eld to be in)a&able o5 ex&lanation, (nd yet, i5 t%ere are no uni8ersal ideas, w%at be)omes o5 &%iloso&%y< DParmenides,E .n t%e 'o&%ist t%e t%eory o5 ideas is s&o6en o5 as a do)trine %eld not by Plato, but by anot%er se)t o5 &%iloso&%ers, )alled 7t%e Friends o5 .deas,7 &robably t%e Me3arians, w%o were 8ery distin)t 5rom %im, i5 not o&&osed to %im D'o&%istE, Nor in w%at may be termed Plato7s abrid3ement o5 t%e %istory o5 &%iloso&%y D'o&%,E, is any mention made su)% as we 5ind in t%e 5irst boo6 o5 (ristotle7s Meta&%ysi)s, o5 t%e deri8ation o5 su)% a t%eory or o5 any &art o5 it 5rom t%e Pyt%a3oreans, t%e Eleati)s, t%e Bera)leiteans, or e8en 5rom 'o)rates, .n t%e P%ilebus, &robably one o5 t%e latest o5 t%e Platoni) 0ialo3ues, t%e )on)e&tion o5 a &ersonal or semi=&ersonal deity ex&ressed under t%e 5i3ure o5 mind, t%e 6in3 o5 all, w%o is also t%e )ause, is retained, T%e one and many o5 t%e P%aedrus and T%eaetetus is still wor6in3 in t%e mind o5 Plato, and t%e )orrelation o5 ideas, not o5 7all wit% all,7 but o5 7some wit% some,7 is asserted and ex&lained, But t%ey are s&o6en o5 in a di55erent manner, and are not su&&osed to be re)o8ered 5rom a 5ormer state o5 existen)e, T%e meta&%ysi)al )on)e&tion o5 trut% &asses into a &sy)%olo3i)al one, w%i)% is )ontinued in t%e @aws, and is t%e 5inal 5orm o5 t%e Platoni) &%iloso&%y, so 5ar as )an be 3at%ered 5rom %is own writin3s Dsee es&e)ially @awsE, .n t%e @aws %e %ar&s on)e more on t%e old strin3, and returns to 3eneral notions>==t%ese %e a)6nowled3es to be many, and yet %e insists t%at t%ey are also one, T%e 3uardian must be made to re)o3niCe t%e trut%, 5or w%i)% %e %as )ontended lon3 a3o in t%e Prota3oras, t%at t%e 8irtues are 5our, but t%ey are also in some sense one D@aws? )om&are Prota3orasE, 'o 8arious, and i5 re3arded on t%e sur5a)e only, in)onsistent, are t%e statements o5 Plato res&e)tin3 t%e do)trine o5 ideas, .5 we attem&ted to

%armoniCe or to )ombine t%em, we s%ould ma6e out o5 t%em, not a system, but t%e )ari)ature o5 a system, T%ey are t%e e8er=8aryin3 ex&ression o5 Plato7s .dealism, T%e terms used in t%em are in t%eir substan)e and 3eneral meanin3 t%e same, alt%ou3% t%ey seem to be di55erent, T%ey &ass 5rom t%e subje)t to t%e obje)t, 5rom eart% DdiesseitsE to %ea8en DjenseitsE wit%out re3ard to t%e 3ul5 w%i)% later t%eolo3y and &%iloso&%y %a8e made between t%em, T%ey are also intended to su&&lement or ex&lain ea)% ot%er, T%ey relate to a subje)t o5 w%i)% Plato %imsel5 would %a8e said t%at 7%e was not )on5ident o5 t%e &re)ise 5orm o5 %is own statements, but was stron3 in t%e belie5 t%at somet%in3 o5 t%e 6ind was true,7 .t is t%e s&irit, not t%e letter, in w%i)% t%ey a3ree==t%e s&irit w%i)% &la)es t%e di8ine abo8e t%e %uman, t%e s&iritual abo8e t%e material, t%e one abo8e t%e many, t%e mind be5ore t%e body, T%e stream o5 an)ient &%iloso&%y in t%e (lexandrian and /oman times widens into a la6e or sea, and t%en disa&&ears under3round to rea&&ear a5ter many a3es in a distant land, .t be3ins to 5low a3ain under new )onditions, at 5irst )on5ined between %i3% and narrow ban6s, but 5inally s&readin3 o8er t%e )ontinent o5 Euro&e, .t is and is not t%e same wit% an)ient &%iloso&%y, T%ere is a 3reat deal in modern &%iloso&%y w%i)% is ins&ired by an)ient, T%ere is mu)% in an)ient &%iloso&%y w%i)% was 7born out o5 due time? and be5ore men were )a&able o5 understandin3 it, To t%e 5at%ers o5 modern &%iloso&%y, t%eir own t%ou3%ts a&&eared to be new and ori3inal, but t%ey )arried wit% t%em an e)%o or s%adow o5 t%e &ast, )omin3 ba)6 by re)olle)tion 5rom an elder world, O5 t%is t%e en4uirers o5 t%e se8enteent% )entury, w%o to t%emsel8es a&&eared to be wor6in3 out inde&endently t%e en4uiry into all trut%, were un)ons)ious, T%ey stood in a new relation to t%eolo3y and natural &%iloso&%y, and 5or a time maintained towards bot% an attitude o5 reser8e and se&aration, :et t%e similarities between modern and an)ient t%ou3%t are 3reater 5ar t%an t%e di55eren)es, (ll &%iloso&%y, e8en t%at &art o5 it w%i)% is said to be based u&on ex&erien)e, is really ideal? and ideas are not only deri8ed 5rom 5a)ts, but t%ey are also &rior to t%em and extend 5ar beyond t%em, just as t%e mind is &rior to t%e senses, Early 9ree6 s&e)ulation )ulminates in t%e ideas o5 Plato, or rat%er in t%e sin3le idea o5 3ood, Bis 5ollowers, and &er%a&s %e %imsel5, %a8in3 arri8ed at t%is ele8ation, instead o5 3oin3 5orwards went ba)6wards 5rom &%iloso&%y

to &sy)%olo3y, 5rom ideas to numbers, But w%at we &er)ei8e to be t%e real meanin3 o5 t%em, an ex&lanation o5 t%e nature and ori3in o5 6nowled3e, will always )ontinue to be one o5 t%e 5irst &roblems o5 &%iloso&%y, Plato also le5t be%ind %im a most &otent instrument, t%e 5orms o5 lo3i)== arms ready 5or use, but not yet ta6en out o5 t%eir armoury, T%ey were t%e late birt% o5 t%e early 9ree6 &%iloso&%y, and were t%e only &art o5 it w%i)% %as %ad an uninterru&ted %old on t%e mind o5 Euro&e, P%iloso&%ies )ome and 3o? but t%e dete)tion o5 5alla)ies, t%e 5ramin3 o5 de5initions, t%e in8ention o5 met%ods still )ontinue to be t%e main elements o5 t%e reasonin3 &ro)ess, Modern &%iloso&%y, li6e an)ient, be3ins wit% 8ery sim&le )on)e&tions, .t is almost w%olly a re5le)tion on sel5, .t mi3%t be des)ribed as a 4ui)6enin3 into li5e o5 old words and notions latent in t%e semi=barbarous @atin, and &uttin3 a new meanin3 into t%em, 1nli6e an)ient &%iloso&%y, it %as been una55e)ted by im&ressions deri8ed 5rom outward nature> it arose wit%in t%e limits o5 t%e mind itsel5, From t%e time o5 0es)artes to Bume and Fant it %as %ad little or not%in3 to do wit% 5a)ts o5 s)ien)e, On t%e ot%er %and, t%e an)ient and mediae8al lo3i) retained a )ontinuous in5luen)e o8er it, and a 5orm li6e t%at o5 mat%emati)s was easily im&ressed u&on it? t%e &rin)i&le o5 an)ient &%iloso&%y w%i)% is most a&&arent in it is s)e&ti)ism? we must doubt nearly e8ery traditional or re)ei8ed notion, t%at we may %old 5ast one or two, T%e bein3 o5 9od in a &ersonal or im&ersonal 5orm was a mental ne)essity to t%e 5irst t%in6ers o5 modern times> 5rom t%is alone all ot%er ideas )ould be dedu)ed, T%ere %ad been an obs)ure &resentiment o5 7)o3nito, er3o sum7 more t%an GKKK years &re8iously, T%e Eleati) notion t%at bein3 and t%ou3%t were t%e same was re8i8ed in a new 5orm by 0es)artes, But now it 3a8e birt% to )ons)iousness and sel5= re5le)tion> it awa6ened t%e 7e3o7 in %uman nature, T%e mind na6ed and abstra)t %as no ot%er )ertainty but t%e )on8i)tion o5 its own existen)e, 7. t%in6, t%ere5ore . am?7 and t%is t%ou3%t is 9od t%in6in3 in me, w%o %as also )ommuni)ated to t%e reason o5 man %is own attributes o5 t%ou3%t and extension==t%ese are truly im&arted to %im be)ause 9od is true D)om&are /e&ubli)E, .t %as been o5ten remar6ed t%at 0es)artes, %a8in3 be3un by dismissin3 all &resu&&ositions, introdu)es se8eral> %e &asses almost at on)e 5rom s)e&ti)ism to do3matism, .t is more im&ortant 5or t%e illustration o5 Plato to obser8e t%at %e, li6e Plato, insists t%at 9od is true and in)a&able o5 de)e&tion D/e&ubli)E==t%at %e &ro)eeds 5rom 3eneral ideas, t%at many elements o5 mat%emati)s may be 5ound in %im, ( )ertain

in5luen)e o5 mat%emati)s bot% on t%e 5orm and substan)e o5 t%eir &%iloso&%y is dis)ernible in bot% o5 t%em, (5ter ma6in3 t%e 3reatest o&&osition between t%ou3%t and extension, 0es)artes, li6e Plato, su&&oses t%em to be reunited 5or a time, not in t%eir own nature but by a s&e)ial di8ine a)t D)om&are P%aedrusE, and %e also su&&oses all t%e &arts o5 t%e %uman body to meet in t%e &ineal 3land, t%at alone a55ordin3 a &rin)i&le o5 unity in t%e material 5rame o5 man, .t is )%ara)teristi) o5 t%e 5irst &eriod o5 modern &%iloso&%y, t%at %a8in3 be3un Dli6e t%e Preso)rati)sE wit% a 5ew 3eneral notions, 0es)artes 5irst 5alls absolutely under t%eir in5luen)e, and t%en 4ui)6ly dis)ards t%em, (t t%e same time %e is less able to obser8e 5a)ts, be)ause t%ey are too mu)% ma3ni5ied by t%e 3lasses t%rou3% w%i)% t%ey are seen, T%e )ommon lo3i) says 7t%e 3reater t%e extension, t%e less t%e )om&re%ension,7 and we may &ut t%e same t%ou3%t in anot%er way and say o5 abstra)t or 3eneral ideas, t%at t%e 3reater t%e abstra)tion o5 t%em, t%e less are t%ey )a&able o5 bein3 a&&lied to &arti)ular and )on)rete natures, Not 8ery di55erent 5rom 0es)artes in %is relation to an)ient &%iloso&%y is %is su))essor '&inoCa, w%o li8ed in t%e 5ollowin3 3eneration, T%e system o5 '&inoCa is less &ersonal and also less dualisti) t%an t%at o5 0es)artes, .n t%is res&e)t t%e di55eren)e between t%em is li6e t%at between Jeno&%anes and Parmenides, T%e tea)%in3 o5 '&inoCa mi3%t be des)ribed 3enerally as t%e Jewis% reli3ion redu)ed to an abstra)tion and ta6in3 t%e 5orm o5 t%e Eleati) &%iloso&%y, @i6e Parmenides, %e is o8er&owered and intoxi)ated wit% t%e idea o5 Bein3 or 9od, T%e 3reatness o5 bot% &%iloso&%ies )onsists in t%e immensity o5 a t%ou3%t w%i)% ex)ludes all ot%er t%ou3%ts? t%eir wea6ness is t%e ne)essary se&aration o5 t%is t%ou3%t 5rom a)tual existen)e and 5rom &ra)ti)al li5e, .n neit%er o5 t%em is t%ere any )lear o&&osition between t%e inward and outward world, T%e substan)e o5 '&inoCa %as two attributes, w%i)% alone are )o3niCable by man, t%ou3%t and extension? t%ese are in extreme o&&osition to one anot%er, and also in inse&arable identity, T%ey may be re3arded as t%e two as&e)ts or ex&ressions under w%i)% 9od or substan)e is un5olded to man, Bere a ste& is made beyond t%e limits o5 t%e Eleati) &%iloso&%y, T%e 5amous t%eorem o5 '&inoCa, 7Omnis determinatio est ne3atio,7 is already )ontained in t%e 7ne3ation is relation7 o5 Plato7s 'o&%ist, T%e 3rand des)ri&tion o5 t%e &%iloso&%er in /e&ubli) A., as t%e s&e)tator o5 all time and all existen)e, may be &aralleled wit% anot%er 5amous ex&ression o5 '&inoCa, 72ontem&latio rerum sub s&e)ie eternitatis,7 ())ordin3 to '&inoCa 5inite obje)ts are unreal, 5or t%ey are )onditioned by w%at is alien to t%em, and by one anot%er, Buman bein3s are in)luded in

t%e number o5 t%em, Ben)e t%ere is no reality in %uman a)tion and no &la)e 5or ri3%t and wron3, .ndi8iduality is a))ident, T%e boasted 5reedom o5 t%e will is only a )ons)iousness o5 ne)essity, Trut%, %e says, is t%e dire)tion o5 t%e reason towards t%e in5inite, in w%i)% all t%in3s re&ose? and %erein lies t%e se)ret o5 man7s well=bein3, .n t%e exaltation o5 t%e reason or intelle)t, in t%e denial o5 t%e 8oluntariness o5 e8il DTimaeus? @awsE '&inoCa a&&roa)%es nearer to Plato t%an in %is )on)e&tion o5 an in5inite substan)e, (s 'o)rates said t%at 8irtue is 6nowled3e, so '&inoCa would %a8e maintained t%at 6nowled3e alone is 3ood, and w%at )ontributes to 6nowled3e use5ul, Bot% are e4ually 5ar 5rom any real ex&erien)e or obser8ation o5 nature, (nd t%e same di55i)ulty is 5ound in bot% w%en we see6 to a&&ly t%eir ideas to li5e and &ra)ti)e, T%ere is a 3ul5 5ixed between t%e in5inite substan)e and 5inite obje)ts or indi8iduals o5 '&inoCa, just as t%ere is between t%e ideas o5 Plato and t%e world o5 sense, /emo8ed 5rom '&inoCa by less t%an a 3eneration is t%e &%iloso&%er @eibnitC, w%o a5ter dee&enin3 and intensi5yin3 t%e o&&osition between mind and matter, reunites t%em by %is &re)on)erted %armony D)om&are a3ain P%aedrusE, To %im all t%e &arti)les o5 matter are li8in3 bein3s w%i)% re5le)t on one anot%er, and in t%e least o5 t%em t%e w%ole is )ontained, Bere we )at)% a reminis)en)e bot% o5 t%e omoiomere, or similar &arti)les o5 (naxa3oras, and o5 t%e world=animal o5 t%e Timaeus, .n Ba)on and @o)6e we %a8e anot%er de8elo&ment in w%i)% t%e mind o5 man is su&&osed to re)ei8e 6nowled3e by a new met%od and to wor6 by obser8ation and ex&erien)e, But we may remar6 t%at it is t%e idea o5 ex&erien)e, rat%er t%an ex&erien)e itsel5, wit% w%i)% t%e mind is 5illed, .t is a symbol o5 6nowled3e rat%er t%an t%e reality w%i)% is 8ou)%sa5ed to us, T%e Or3anon o5 Ba)on is not mu)% nearer to a)tual 5a)ts t%an t%e Or3anon o5 (ristotle or t%e Platoni) idea o5 3ood, Many o5 t%e old ra3s and ribbons w%i)% de5a)ed t%e 3arment o5 &%iloso&%y %a8e been stri&&ed o55, but some o5 t%em still ad%ere, ( )rude )on)e&tion o5 t%e ideas o5 Plato sur8i8es in t%e 75orms7 o5 Ba)on, (nd on t%e ot%er %and, t%ere are many &assa3es o5 Plato in w%i)% t%e im&ortan)e o5 t%e in8esti3ation o5 5a)ts is as mu)% insisted u&on as by Ba)on, Bot% are almost e4ually su&erior to t%e

illusions o5 lan3ua3e, and are )onstantly )ryin3 out a3ainst t%em, as a3ainst ot%er idols, @o)6e )annot be truly re3arded as t%e aut%or o5 sensationalism any more t%an o5 idealism, Bis system is based u&on ex&erien)e, but wit% %im ex&erien)e in)ludes re5le)tion as well as sense, Bis analysis and )onstru)tion o5 ideas %as no 5oundation in 5a)t? it is only t%e diale)ti) o5 t%e mind 7tal6in3 to %ersel5,7 T%e &%iloso&%y o5 Ber6eley is but t%e trans&osition o5 two words, For obje)ts o5 sense %e would substitute sensations, Be ima3ines %imsel5 to %a8e )%an3ed t%e relation o5 t%e %uman mind towards 9od and nature? t%ey remain t%e same as be5ore, t%ou3% %e %as drawn t%e ima3inary line by w%i)% t%ey are di8ided at a di55erent &oint, Be %as anni%ilated t%e outward world, but it instantly rea&&ears 3o8erned by t%e same laws and des)ribed under t%e same names, ( li6e remar6 a&&lies to 0a8id Bume, o5 w%ose &%iloso&%y t%e )entral &rin)i&le is t%e denial o5 t%e relation o5 )ause and e55e)t, Be would de&ri8e men o5 a 5amiliar term w%i)% t%ey )an ill a55ord to lose? but %e seems not to %a8e obser8ed t%at t%is alteration is merely 8erbal and does not in any de3ree a55e)t t%e nature o5 t%in3s, 'till less did %e remar6 t%at %e was ar3uin3 5rom t%e ne)essary im&er5e)tion o5 lan3ua3e a3ainst t%e most )ertain 5a)ts, (nd %ere, a3ain, we may 5ind a &arallel wit% t%e an)ients, Be 3oes beyond 5a)ts in %is s)e&ti)ism, as t%ey did in t%eir idealism, @i6e t%e an)ient 'o&%ists, %e rele3ates t%e more im&ortant &rin)i&les o5 et%i)s to )ustom and &robability, But )rude and unmeanin3 as t%is &%iloso&%y is, it exer)ised a 3reat in5luen)e on %is su))essors, not unli6e t%at w%i)% @o)6e exer)ised u&on Ber6eley and Ber6eley u&on Bume %imsel5, (ll t%ree were bot% s)e&ti)al and ideal in almost e4ual de3rees, Neit%er t%ey nor t%eir &rede)essors %ad any true )on)e&tion o5 lan3ua3e or o5 t%e %istory o5 &%iloso&%y, Bume7s &aradox %as been 5or3otten by t%e world, and did not any more t%an t%e s)e&ti)ism o5 t%e an)ients re4uire to be seriously re5uted, @i6e some ot%er &%iloso&%i)al &aradoxes, it would %a8e been better le5t to die out, .t )ertainly )ould not be re5uted by a &%iloso&%y su)% as Fant7s, in w%i)%, no less t%an in t%e &re8iously mentioned systems, t%e %istory o5 t%e %uman mind and t%e nature o5 lan3ua3e are almost w%olly i3nored, and t%e )ertainty o5 obje)ti8e 6nowled3e is trans5erred to t%e subje)t? w%ile absolute trut% is redu)ed to a 5i3ment, more abstra)t and narrow t%an Plato7s ideas, o5 7t%in3 in itsel5,7 to

w%i)%, i5 we reason stri)tly, no &redi)ate )an be a&&lied, T%e 4uestion w%i)% Plato %as raised res&e)tin3 t%e ori3in and nature o5 ideas belon3s to t%e in5an)y o5 &%iloso&%y? in modern times it would no lon3er be as6ed, T%eir ori3in is only t%eir %istory, so 5ar as we 6now it? t%ere )an be no ot%er, ;e may tra)e t%em in lan3ua3e, in &%iloso&%y, in myt%olo3y, in &oetry, but we )annot ar3ue a &riori about t%em, ;e may attem&t to s%a6e t%em o55, but t%ey are always returnin3, and in e8ery s&%ere o5 s)ien)e and %uman a)tion are tendin3 to 3o beyond 5a)ts, T%ey are t%ou3%t to be innate, be)ause t%ey %a8e been 5amiliar to us all our li8es, and we )an no lon3er dismiss t%em 5rom our mind, Many o5 t%em ex&ress relations o5 terms to w%i)% not%in3 exa)tly or not%in3 at all in rerum natura )orres&onds, ;e are not su)% 5ree a3ents in t%e use o5 t%em as we sometimes ima3ine, Fixed ideas %a8e ta6en t%e most )om&lete &ossession o5 some t%in6ers w%o %a8e been most determined to renoun)e t%em, and %a8e been 8e%emently a55irmed w%en t%ey )ould be least ex&lained and were in)a&able o5 &roo5, T%e world %as o5ten been led away by a word to w%i)% no distin)t meanin3 )ould be atta)%ed, (bstra)tions su)% as 7aut%ority,7 7e4uality,7 7utility,7 7liberty,7 7&leasure,7 7ex&erien)e,7 7)ons)iousness,7 7)%an)e,7 7substan)e,7 7matter,7 7atom,7 and a %ea& o5 ot%er meta&%ysi)al and t%eolo3i)al terms, are t%e sour)e o5 4uite as mu)% error and illusion and %a8e as little relation to a)tual 5a)ts as t%e ideas o5 Plato, Few students o5 t%eolo3y or &%iloso&%y %a8e su55i)iently re5le)ted %ow 4ui)6ly t%e bloom o5 a &%iloso&%y &asses away? or %ow %ard it is 5or one a3e to understand t%e writin3s o5 anot%er? or %ow ni)e a jud3ment is re4uired o5 t%ose w%o are see6in3 to ex&ress t%e &%iloso&%y o5 one a3e in t%e terms o5 anot%er, T%e 7eternal trut%s7 o5 w%i)% meta&%ysi)ians s&ea6 %a8e %ardly e8er lasted more t%an a 3eneration, .n our own day s)%ools or systems o5 &%iloso&%y w%i)% %a8e on)e been 5amous %a8e died be5ore t%e 5ounders o5 t%em, ;e are still, as in Plato7s a3e, 3ro&in3 about 5or a new met%od more )om&re%ensi8e t%an any o5 t%ose w%i)% now &re8ail? and also more &ermanent, (nd we seem to see at a distan)e t%e &romise o5 su)% a met%od, w%i)% )an %ardly be any ot%er t%an t%e met%od o5 idealiCed ex&erien)e, %a8in3 roots w%i)% stri6e 5ar down into t%e %istory o5 &%iloso&%y, .t is a met%od w%i)% does not di8or)e t%e &resent 5rom t%e &ast, or t%e &art 5rom t%e w%ole, or t%e abstra)t 5rom t%e )on)rete, or t%eory 5rom 5a)t, or t%e di8ine 5rom t%e %uman, or one s)ien)e 5rom anot%er, but labours to )onne)t t%em, (lon3 su)% a road we %a8e &ro)eeded

a 5ew ste&s, su55i)ient, &er%a&s, to ma6e us re5le)t on t%e want o5 met%od w%i)% &re8ails in our own day, .n anot%er a3e, all t%e bran)%es o5 6nowled3e, w%et%er relatin3 to 9od or man or nature, will be)ome t%e 6nowled3e o5 7t%e re8elation o5 a sin3le s)ien)e7 D'ym&,E, and all t%in3s, li6e t%e stars in %ea8en, will s%ed t%eir li3%t u&on one anot%er, MENO by Plato Translated by Benjamin Jowett PE/'ON' OF TBE 0.(@O91E> Meno, 'o)rates, ( 'la8e o5 Meno DBoyE, (nytus, MENO> 2an you tell me, 'o)rates, w%et%er 8irtue is a)4uired by tea)%in3 or by &ra)ti)e? or i5 neit%er by tea)%in3 nor by &ra)ti)e, t%en w%et%er it )omes to man by nature, or in w%at ot%er way< 'O2/(TE'> O Meno, t%ere was a time w%en t%e T%essalians were 5amous amon3 t%e ot%er Bellenes only 5or t%eir ri)%es and t%eir ridin3? but now, i5 . am not mista6en, t%ey are e4ually 5amous 5or t%eir wisdom, es&e)ially at @arisa, w%i)% is t%e nati8e )ity o5 your 5riend (risti&&us, (nd t%is is 9or3ias7 doin3? 5or w%en %e )ame t%ere, t%e 5lower o5 t%e (leuadae, amon3 t%em your admirer (risti&&us, and t%e ot%er )%ie5s o5 t%e T%essalians, 5ell in lo8e wit% %is wisdom, (nd %e %as tau3%t you t%e %abit o5 answerin3 4uestions in a 3rand and bold style, w%i)% be)omes t%ose w%o 6now, and is t%e style in w%i)% %e %imsel5 answers all )omers? and any Bellene w%o li6es may as6 %im anyt%in3, Bow di55erent is our lotL my dear Meno, Bere at (t%ens t%ere is a deart% o5 t%e )ommodity, and all wisdom seems to %a8e emi3rated 5rom us to you, . am )ertain t%at i5 you were to as6 any (t%enian w%et%er 8irtue was natural or a)4uired, %e would lau3% in your 5a)e, and say> 7'tran3er, you %a8e 5ar too 3ood an o&inion o5 me, i5 you

t%in6 t%at . )an answer your 4uestion, For . literally do not 6now w%at 8irtue is, and mu)% less w%et%er it is a)4uired by tea)%in3 or not,7 (nd . mysel5, Meno, li8in3 as . do in t%is re3ion o5 &o8erty, am as &oor as t%e rest o5 t%e world? and . )on5ess wit% s%ame t%at . 6now literally not%in3 about 8irtue? and w%en . do not 6now t%e 74uid7 o5 anyt%in3 %ow )an . 6now t%e 74uale7< Bow, i5 . 6new not%in3 at all o5 Meno, )ould . tell i5 %e was 5air, or t%e o&&osite o5 5air? ri)% and noble, or t%e re8erse o5 ri)% and noble< 0o you t%in6 t%at . )ould< MENO> No, indeed, But are you in earnest, 'o)rates, in sayin3 t%at you do not 6now w%at 8irtue is< (nd am . to )arry ba)6 t%is re&ort o5 you to T%essaly< 'O2/(TE'> Not only t%at, my dear boy, but you may say 5urt%er t%at . %a8e ne8er 6nown o5 any one else w%o did, in my jud3ment, MENO> T%en you %a8e ne8er met 9or3ias w%en %e was at (t%ens< 'O2/(TE'> :es, . %a8e, MENO> (nd did you not t%in6 t%at %e 6new< 'O2/(TE'> . %a8e not a 3ood memory, Meno, and t%ere5ore . )annot now tell w%at . t%ou3%t o5 %im at t%e time, (nd . dare say t%at %e did 6now, and t%at you 6now w%at %e said> &lease, t%ere5ore, to remind me o5 w%at %e said? or, i5 you would rat%er, tell me your own 8iew? 5or . sus&e)t t%at you and %e t%in6 mu)% ali6e, MENO> Aery true, 'O2/(TE'> T%en as %e is not %ere, ne8er mind %im, and do you tell me> By t%e 3ods, Meno, be 3enerous, and tell me w%at you say t%at 8irtue is? 5or . s%all be truly deli3%ted to 5ind t%at . %a8e been mista6en, and t%at you and 9or3ias do really %a8e t%is 6nowled3e? alt%ou3% . %a8e been just sayin3 t%at . %a8e ne8er 5ound anybody w%o %ad, MENO> T%ere will be no di55i)ulty, 'o)rates, in answerin3 your 4uestion,

@et us ta6e 5irst t%e 8irtue o5 a man==%e s%ould 6now %ow to administer t%e state, and in t%e administration o5 it to bene5it %is 5riends and %arm %is enemies? and %e must also be )are5ul not to su55er %arm %imsel5, ( woman7s 8irtue, i5 you wis% to 6now about t%at, may also be easily des)ribed> %er duty is to order %er %ouse, and 6ee& w%at is indoors, and obey %er %usband, E8ery a3e, e8ery )ondition o5 li5e, youn3 or old, male or 5emale, bond or 5ree, %as a di55erent 8irtue> t%ere are 8irtues numberless, and no la)6 o5 de5initions o5 t%em? 5or 8irtue is relati8e to t%e a)tions and a3es o5 ea)% o5 us in all t%at we do, (nd t%e same may be said o5 8i)e, 'o)rates D2om&are (rist, Pol,E, 'O2/(TE'> Bow 5ortunate . am, MenoL ;%en . as6 you 5or one 8irtue, you &resent me wit% a swarm o5 t%em D2om&are T%eaet,E, w%i)% are in your 6ee&in3, 'u&&ose t%at . )arry on t%e 5i3ure o5 t%e swarm, and as6 o5 you, ;%at is t%e nature o5 t%e bee< and you answer t%at t%ere are many 6inds o5 bees, and . re&ly> But do bees di55er as bees, be)ause t%ere are many and di55erent 6inds o5 t%em? or are t%ey not rat%er to be distin3uis%ed by some ot%er 4uality, as 5or exam&le beauty, siCe, or s%a&e< Bow would you answer me< MENO> . s%ould answer t%at bees do not di55er 5rom one anot%er, as bees, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 . went on to say> T%at is w%at . desire to 6now, Meno? tell me w%at is t%e 4uality in w%i)% t%ey do not di55er, but are all ali6e?==would you be able to answer< MENO> . s%ould, 'O2/(TE'> (nd so o5 t%e 8irtues, %owe8er many and di55erent t%ey may be, t%ey %a8e all a )ommon nature w%i)% ma6es t%em 8irtues? and on t%is %e w%o would answer t%e 4uestion, 7;%at is 8irtue<7 would do well to %a8e %is eye 5ixed> 0o you understand< MENO> . am be3innin3 to understand? but . do not as yet ta6e %old o5 t%e 4uestion as . )ould wis%,

'O2/(TE'> ;%en you say, Meno, t%at t%ere is one 8irtue o5 a man, anot%er o5 a woman, anot%er o5 a )%ild, and so on, does t%is a&&ly only to 8irtue, or would you say t%e same o5 %ealt%, and siCe, and stren3t%< Or is t%e nature o5 %ealt% always t%e same, w%et%er in man or woman< MENO> . s%ould say t%at %ealt% is t%e same, bot% in man and woman, 'O2/(TE'> (nd is not t%is true o5 siCe and stren3t%< .5 a woman is stron3, s%e will be stron3 by reason o5 t%e same 5orm and o5 t%e same stren3t% subsistin3 in %er w%i)% t%ere is in t%e man, . mean to say t%at stren3t%, as stren3t%, w%et%er o5 man or woman, is t%e same, .s t%ere any di55eren)e< MENO> . t%in6 not, 'O2/(TE'> (nd will not 8irtue, as 8irtue, be t%e same, w%et%er in a )%ild or in a 3rown=u& &erson, in a woman or in a man< MENO> . )annot %el& 5eelin3, 'o)rates, t%at t%is )ase is di55erent 5rom t%e ot%ers, 'O2/(TE'> But w%y< ;ere you not sayin3 t%at t%e 8irtue o5 a man was to order a state, and t%e 8irtue o5 a woman was to order a %ouse< MENO> . did say so, 'O2/(TE'> (nd )an eit%er %ouse or state or anyt%in3 be well ordered wit%out tem&eran)e and wit%out justi)e< MENO> 2ertainly not, 'O2/(TE'> T%en t%ey w%o order a state or a %ouse tem&erately or justly order t%em wit% tem&eran)e and justi)e< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> T%en bot% men and women, i5 t%ey are to be 3ood men and women,

must %a8e t%e same 8irtues o5 tem&eran)e and justi)e< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd )an eit%er a youn3 man or an elder one be 3ood, i5 t%ey are intem&erate and unjust< MENO> T%ey )annot, 'O2/(TE'> T%ey must be tem&erate and just< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> T%en all men are 3ood in t%e same way, and by &arti)i&ation in t%e same 8irtues< MENO> 'u)% is t%e in5eren)e, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%ey surely would not %a8e been 3ood in t%e same way, unless t%eir 8irtue %ad been t%e same< MENO> T%ey would not, 'O2/(TE'> T%en now t%at t%e sameness o5 all 8irtue %as been &ro8en, try and remember w%at you and 9or3ias say t%at 8irtue is, MENO> ;ill you %a8e one de5inition o5 t%em all< 'O2/(TE'> T%at is w%at . am see6in3, MENO> .5 you want to %a8e one de5inition o5 t%em all, . 6now not w%at to say, but t%at 8irtue is t%e &ower o5 3o8ernin3 man6ind, 'O2/(TE'> (nd does t%is de5inition o5 8irtue in)lude all 8irtue< .s 8irtue t%e same in a )%ild and in a sla8e, Meno< 2an t%e )%ild 3o8ern %is 5at%er, or t%e sla8e %is master? and would %e w%o 3o8erned be any lon3er a sla8e<

MENO> . t%in6 not, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> No, indeed? t%ere would be small reason in t%at, :et on)e more, 5air 5riend? a))ordin3 to you, 8irtue is 7t%e &ower o5 3o8ernin3?7 but do you not add 7justly and not unjustly7< MENO> :es, 'o)rates? . a3ree t%ere? 5or justi)e is 8irtue, 'O2/(TE'> ;ould you say 78irtue,7 Meno, or 7a 8irtue7< MENO> ;%at do you mean< 'O2/(TE'> . mean as . mi3%t say about anyt%in3? t%at a round, 5or exam&le, is 7a 5i3ure7 and not sim&ly 75i3ure,7 and . s%ould ado&t t%is mode o5 s&ea6in3, be)ause t%ere are ot%er 5i3ures, MENO> Muite ri3%t? and t%at is just w%at . am sayin3 about 8irtue==t%at t%ere are ot%er 8irtues as well as justi)e, 'O2/(TE'> ;%at are t%ey< tell me t%e names o5 t%em, as . would tell you t%e names o5 t%e ot%er 5i3ures i5 you as6ed me, MENO> 2oura3e and tem&eran)e and wisdom and ma3nanimity are 8irtues? and t%ere are many ot%ers, 'O2/(TE'> :es, Meno? and a3ain we are in t%e same )ase> in sear)%in3 a5ter one 8irtue we %a8e 5ound many, t%ou3% not in t%e same way as be5ore? but we %a8e been unable to 5ind t%e )ommon 8irtue w%i)% runs t%rou3% t%em all, MENO> ;%y, 'o)rates, e8en now . am not able to 5ollow you in t%e attem&t to 3et at one )ommon notion o5 8irtue as o5 ot%er t%in3s, 'O2/(TE'> No wonder? but . will try to 3et nearer i5 . )an, 5or you 6now

t%at all t%in3s %a8e a )ommon notion, 'u&&ose now t%at some one as6ed you t%e 4uestion w%i)% . as6ed be5ore> Meno, %e would say, w%at is 5i3ure< (nd i5 you answered 7roundness,7 %e would re&ly to you, in my way o5 s&ea6in3, by as6in3 w%et%er you would say t%at roundness is 75i3ure7 or 7a 5i3ure?7 and you would answer 7a 5i3ure,7 MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd 5or t%is reason==t%at t%ere are ot%er 5i3ures< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 %e &ro)eeded to as6, ;%at ot%er 5i3ures are t%ere< you would %a8e told %im, MENO> . s%ould, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 %e similarly as6ed w%at )olour is, and you answered w%iteness, and t%e 4uestioner rejoined, ;ould you say t%at w%iteness is )olour or a )olour< you would re&ly, ( )olour, be)ause t%ere are ot%er )olours as well, MENO> . s%ould, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 %e %ad said, Tell me w%at t%ey are<==you would %a8e told %im o5 ot%er )olours w%i)% are )olours just as mu)% as w%iteness, MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd su&&ose t%at %e were to &ursue t%e matter in my way, %e would say> E8er and anon we are landed in &arti)ulars, but t%is is not w%at . want? tell me t%en, sin)e you )all t%em by a )ommon name, and say t%at t%ey are all 5i3ures, e8en w%en o&&osed to one anot%er, w%at is t%at )ommon nature w%i)% you desi3nate as 5i3ure==w%i)% )ontains strai3%t as well as round, and is no more one t%an t%e ot%er==t%at would be your mode o5 s&ea6in3< MENO> :es,

'O2/(TE'> (nd in s&ea6in3 t%us, you do not mean to say t%at t%e round is round any more t%an strai3%t, or t%e strai3%t any more strai3%t t%an round< MENO> 2ertainly not, 'O2/(TE'> :ou only assert t%at t%e round 5i3ure is not more a 5i3ure t%an t%e strai3%t, or t%e strai3%t t%an t%e round< MENO> Aery true, 'O2/(TE'> To w%at t%en do we 3i8e t%e name o5 5i3ure< Try and answer, 'u&&ose t%at w%en a &erson as6ed you t%is 4uestion eit%er about 5i3ure or )olour, you were to re&ly, Man, . do not understand w%at you want, or 6now w%at you are sayin3? %e would loo6 rat%er astonis%ed and say> 0o you not understand t%at . am loo6in3 5or t%e 7simile in multis7< (nd t%en %e mi3%t &ut t%e 4uestion in anot%er 5orm> Meno, %e mi3%t say, w%at is t%at 7simile in multis7 w%i)% you )all 5i3ure, and w%i)% in)ludes not only round and strai3%t 5i3ures, but all< 2ould you not answer t%at 4uestion, Meno< . wis% t%at you would try? t%e attem&t will be 3ood &ra)ti)e wit% a 8iew to t%e answer about 8irtue, MENO> . would rat%er t%at you s%ould answer, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> '%all . indul3e you< MENO> By all means, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%en you will tell me about 8irtue< MENO> . will, 'O2/(TE'> T%en . must do my best, 5or t%ere is a &riCe to be won, MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> ;ell, . will try and ex&lain to you w%at 5i3ure is, ;%at do you say to t%is answer<==Fi3ure is t%e only t%in3 w%i)% always 5ollows )olour,

;ill you be satis5ied wit% it, as . am sure t%at . s%ould be, i5 you would let me %a8e a similar de5inition o5 8irtue< MENO> But, 'o)rates, it is su)% a sim&le answer, 'O2/(TE'> ;%y sim&le< MENO> Be)ause, a))ordin3 to you, 5i3ure is t%at w%i)% always 5ollows )olour, D'O2/(TE'> 9ranted,E MENO> But i5 a &erson were to say t%at %e does not 6now w%at )olour is, any more t%an w%at 5i3ure is==w%at sort o5 answer would you %a8e 3i8en %im< 'O2/(TE'> . s%ould %a8e told %im t%e trut%, (nd i5 %e were a &%iloso&%er o5 t%e eristi) and anta3onisti) sort, . s%ould say to %im> :ou %a8e my answer, and i5 . am wron3, your business is to ta6e u& t%e ar3ument and re5ute me, But i5 we were 5riends, and were tal6in3 as you and . are now, . s%ould re&ly in a milder strain and more in t%e diale)ti)ian7s 8ein? t%at is to say, . s%ould not only s&ea6 t%e trut%, but . s%ould ma6e use o5 &remisses w%i)% t%e &erson interro3ated would be willin3 to admit, (nd t%is is t%e way in w%i)% . s%all endea8our to a&&roa)% you, :ou will a)6nowled3e, will you not, t%at t%ere is su)% a t%in3 as an end, or termination, or extremity<==all w%i)% words . use in t%e same sense, alt%ou3% . am aware t%at Prodi)us mi3%t draw distin)tions about t%em> but still you, . am sure, would s&ea6 o5 a t%in3 as ended or terminated==t%at is all w%i)% . am sayin3==not anyt%in3 8ery di55i)ult, MENO> :es, . s%ould? and . belie8e t%at . understand your meanin3, 'O2/(TE'> (nd you would s&ea6 o5 a sur5a)e and also o5 a solid, as 5or exam&le in 3eometry, MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> ;ell t%en, you are now in a )ondition to understand my de5inition o5 5i3ure, . de5ine 5i3ure to be t%at in w%i)% t%e solid ends?

or, more )on)isely, t%e limit o5 solid, MENO> (nd now, 'o)rates, w%at is )olour< 'O2/(TE'> :ou are outra3eous, Meno, in t%us &la3uin3 a &oor old man to 3i8e you an answer, w%en you will not ta6e t%e trouble o5 rememberin3 w%at is 9or3ias7 de5inition o5 8irtue, MENO> ;%en you %a8e told me w%at . as6, . will tell you, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> ( man w%o was blind5olded %as only to %ear you tal6in3, and %e would 6now t%at you are a 5air )reature and %a8e still many lo8ers, MENO> ;%y do you t%in6 so< 'O2/(TE'> ;%y, be)ause you always s&ea6 in im&erati8es> li6e all beauties w%en t%ey are in t%eir &rime, you are tyranni)al? and also, as . sus&e)t, you %a8e 5ound out t%at . %a8e wea6ness 5or t%e 5air, and t%ere5ore to %umour you . must answer, MENO> Please do, 'O2/(TE'> ;ould you li6e me to answer you a5ter t%e manner o5 9or3ias, w%i)% is 5amiliar to you< MENO> . s%ould li6e not%in3 better, 'O2/(TE'> 0o not %e and you and Em&edo)les say t%at t%ere are )ertain e55luen)es o5 existen)e< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd &assa3es into w%i)% and t%rou3% w%i)% t%e e55luen)es &ass< MENO> Exa)tly,

'O2/(TE'> (nd some o5 t%e e55luen)es 5it into t%e &assa3es, and some o5 t%em are too small or too lar3e< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%ere is su)% a t%in3 as si3%t< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd now, as Pindar says, 7read my meanin3>7==)olour is an e55luen)e o5 5orm, )ommensurate wit% si3%t, and &al&able to sense, MENO> T%at, 'o)rates, a&&ears to me to be an admirable answer, 'O2/(TE'> ;%y, yes, be)ause it %a&&ens to be one w%i)% you %a8e been in t%e %abit o5 %earin3> and your wit will %a8e dis)o8ered, . sus&e)t, t%at you may ex&lain in t%e same way t%e nature o5 sound and smell, and o5 many ot%er similar &%enomena, MENO> Muite true, 'O2/(TE'> T%e answer, Meno, was in t%e ort%odox solemn 8ein, and t%ere5ore was more a))e&table to you t%an t%e ot%er answer about 5i3ure, MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd yet, O son o5 (lexidemus, . )annot %el& t%in6in3 t%at t%e ot%er was t%e better? and . am sure t%at you would be o5 t%e same o&inion, i5 you would only stay and be initiated, and were not )om&elled, as you said yesterday, to 3o away be5ore t%e mysteries, MENO> But . will stay, 'o)rates, i5 you will 3i8e me many su)% answers, 'O2/(TE'> ;ell t%en, 5or my own sa6e as well as 5or yours, . will do my 8ery best? but . am a5raid t%at . s%all not be able to 3i8e you 8ery many as 3ood> and now, in your turn, you are to 5ul5il your &romise, and tell me w%at 8irtue is in t%e uni8ersal? and do not ma6e a sin3ular into a

&lural, as t%e 5a)etious say o5 t%ose w%o brea6 a t%in3, but deli8er 8irtue to me w%ole and sound, and not bro6en into a number o5 &ie)es> . %a8e 3i8en you t%e &attern, MENO> ;ell t%en, 'o)rates, 8irtue, as . ta6e it, is w%en %e, w%o desires t%e %onourable, is able to &ro8ide it 5or %imsel5? so t%e &oet says, and . say too== 7Airtue is t%e desire o5 t%in3s %onourable and t%e &ower o5 attainin3 t%em,7 'O2/(TE'> (nd does %e w%o desires t%e %onourable also desire t%e 3ood< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> T%en are t%ere some w%o desire t%e e8il and ot%ers w%o desire t%e 3ood< 0o not all men, my dear sir, desire 3ood< MENO> . t%in6 not, 'O2/(TE'> T%ere are some w%o desire e8il< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> 0o you mean t%at t%ey t%in6 t%e e8ils w%i)% t%ey desire, to be 3ood? or do t%ey 6now t%at t%ey are e8il and yet desire t%em< MENO> Bot%, . t%in6, 'O2/(TE'> (nd do you really ima3ine, Meno, t%at a man 6nows e8ils to be e8ils and desires t%em notwit%standin3< MENO> 2ertainly . do, 'O2/(TE'> (nd desire is o5 &ossession< MENO> :es, o5 &ossession,

'O2/(TE'> (nd does %e t%in6 t%at t%e e8ils will do 3ood to %im w%o &ossesses t%em, or does %e 6now t%at t%ey will do %im %arm< MENO> T%ere are some w%o t%in6 t%at t%e e8ils will do t%em 3ood, and ot%ers w%o 6now t%at t%ey will do t%em %arm, 'O2/(TE'> (nd, in your o&inion, do t%ose w%o t%in6 t%at t%ey will do t%em 3ood 6now t%at t%ey are e8ils< MENO> 2ertainly not, 'O2/(TE'> .s it not ob8ious t%at t%ose w%o are i3norant o5 t%eir nature do not desire t%em? but t%ey desire w%at t%ey su&&ose to be 3oods alt%ou3% t%ey are really e8ils? and i5 t%ey are mista6en and su&&ose t%e e8ils to be 3oods t%ey really desire 3oods< MENO> :es, in t%at )ase, 'O2/(TE'> ;ell, and do t%ose w%o, as you say, desire e8ils, and t%in6 t%at e8ils are %urt5ul to t%e &ossessor o5 t%em, 6now t%at t%ey will be %urt by t%em< MENO> T%ey must 6now it, 'O2/(TE'> (nd must t%ey not su&&ose t%at t%ose w%o are %urt are miserable in &ro&ortion to t%e %urt w%i)% is in5li)ted u&on t%em< MENO> Bow )an it be ot%erwise< 'O2/(TE'> But are not t%e miserable ill=5ated< MENO> :es, indeed, 'O2/(TE'> (nd does any one desire to be miserable and ill=5ated< MENO> . s%ould say not, 'o)rates,

'O2/(TE'> But i5 t%ere is no one w%o desires to be miserable, t%ere is no one, Meno, w%o desires e8il? 5or w%at is misery but t%e desire and &ossession o5 e8il< MENO> T%at a&&ears to be t%e trut%, 'o)rates, and . admit t%at nobody desires e8il, 'O2/(TE'> (nd yet, were you not sayin3 just now t%at 8irtue is t%e desire and &ower o5 attainin3 3ood< MENO> :es, . did say so, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 t%is be a55irmed, t%en t%e desire o5 3ood is )ommon to all, and one man is no better t%an anot%er in t%at res&e)t< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 one man is not better t%an anot%er in desirin3 3ood, %e must be better in t%e &ower o5 attainin3 it< MENO> Exa)tly, 'O2/(TE'> T%en, a))ordin3 to your de5inition, 8irtue would a&&ear to be t%e &ower o5 attainin3 3ood< MENO> . entirely a&&ro8e, 'o)rates, o5 t%e manner in w%i)% you now 8iew t%is matter, 'O2/(TE'> T%en let us see w%et%er w%at you say is true 5rom anot%er &oint o5 8iew? 5or 8ery li6ely you may be ri3%t>==:ou a55irm 8irtue to be t%e &ower o5 attainin3 3oods< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e 3oods w%i)% you mean are su)% as %ealt% and wealt% and t%e &ossession o5 3old and sil8er, and %a8in3 o55i)e and %onour in t%e state==t%ose are w%at you would )all 3oods<

MENO> :es, . s%ould in)lude all t%ose, 'O2/(TE'> T%en, a))ordin3 to Meno, w%o is t%e %ereditary 5riend o5 t%e 3reat 6in3, 8irtue is t%e &ower o5 3ettin3 sil8er and 3old? and would you add t%at t%ey must be 3ained &iously, justly, or do you deem t%is to be o5 no )onse4uen)e< (nd is any mode o5 a)4uisition, e8en i5 unjust and dis%onest, e4ually to be deemed 8irtue< MENO> Not 8irtue, 'o)rates, but 8i)e, 'O2/(TE'> T%en justi)e or tem&eran)e or %oliness, or some ot%er &art o5 8irtue, as would a&&ear, must a))om&any t%e a)4uisition, and wit%out t%em t%e mere a)4uisition o5 3ood will not be 8irtue, MENO> ;%y, %ow )an t%ere be 8irtue wit%out t%ese< 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e non=a)4uisition o5 3old and sil8er in a dis%onest manner 5or onesel5 or anot%er, or in ot%er words t%e want o5 t%em, may be e4ually 8irtue< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> T%en t%e a)4uisition o5 su)% 3oods is no more 8irtue t%an t%e non=a)4uisition and want o5 t%em, but w%ate8er is a))om&anied by justi)e or %onesty is 8irtue, and w%ate8er is de8oid o5 justi)e is 8i)e, MENO> .t )annot be ot%erwise, in my jud3ment, 'O2/(TE'> (nd were we not sayin3 just now t%at justi)e, tem&eran)e, and t%e li6e, were ea)% o5 t%em a &art o5 8irtue< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd so, Meno, t%is is t%e way in w%i)% you mo)6 me, MENO> ;%y do you say t%at, 'o)rates<

'O2/(TE'> ;%y, be)ause . as6ed you to deli8er 8irtue into my %ands w%ole and unbro6en, and . 3a8e you a &attern a))ordin3 to w%i)% you were to 5rame your answer? and you %a8e 5or3otten already, and tell me t%at 8irtue is t%e &ower o5 attainin3 3ood justly, or wit% justi)e? and justi)e you a)6nowled3e to be a &art o5 8irtue, MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> T%en it 5ollows 5rom your own admissions, t%at 8irtue is doin3 w%at you do wit% a &art o5 8irtue? 5or justi)e and t%e li6e are said by you to be &arts o5 8irtue, MENO> ;%at o5 t%at< 'O2/(TE'> ;%at o5 t%atL ;%y, did not . as6 you to tell me t%e nature o5 8irtue as a w%ole< (nd you are 8ery 5ar 5rom tellin3 me t%is? but de)lare e8ery a)tion to be 8irtue w%i)% is done wit% a &art o5 8irtue? as t%ou3% you %ad told me and . must already 6now t%e w%ole o5 8irtue, and t%is too w%en 5rittered away into little &ie)es, (nd, t%ere5ore, my dear Meno, . 5ear t%at . must be3in a3ain and re&eat t%e same 4uestion> ;%at is 8irtue< 5or ot%erwise, . )an only say, t%at e8ery a)tion done wit% a &art o5 8irtue is 8irtue? w%at else is t%e meanin3 o5 sayin3 t%at e8ery a)tion done wit% justi)e is 8irtue< Ou3%t . not to as6 t%e 4uestion o8er a3ain? 5or )an any one w%o does not 6now 8irtue 6now a &art o5 8irtue< MENO> No? . do not say t%at %e )an, 'O2/(TE'> 0o you remember %ow, in t%e exam&le o5 5i3ure, we reje)ted any answer 3i8en in terms w%i)% were as yet unex&lained or unadmitted< MENO> :es, 'o)rates? and we were 4uite ri3%t in doin3 so, 'O2/(TE'> But t%en, my 5riend, do not su&&ose t%at we )an ex&lain to any one t%e nature o5 8irtue as a w%ole t%rou3% some unex&lained &ortion o5 8irtue, or anyt%in3 at all in t%at 5as%ion? we s%ould only %a8e to as6 o8er

a3ain t%e old 4uestion, ;%at is 8irtue< (m . not ri3%t< MENO> . belie8e t%at you are, 'O2/(TE'> T%en be3in a3ain, and answer me, ;%at, a))ordin3 to you and your 5riend 9or3ias, is t%e de5inition o5 8irtue< MENO> O 'o)rates, . used to be told, be5ore . 6new you, t%at you were always doubtin3 yoursel5 and ma6in3 ot%ers doubt? and now you are )astin3 your s&ells o8er me, and . am sim&ly 3ettin3 bewit)%ed and en)%anted, and am at my wits7 end, (nd i5 . may 8enture to ma6e a jest u&on you, you seem to me bot% in your a&&earan)e and in your &ower o8er ot%ers to be 8ery li6e t%e 5lat tor&edo 5is%, w%o tor&i5ies t%ose w%o )ome near %im and tou)% %im, as you %a8e now tor&i5ied me, . t%in6, For my soul and my ton3ue are really tor&id, and . do not 6now %ow to answer you? and t%ou3% . %a8e been deli8ered o5 an in5inite 8ariety o5 s&ee)%es about 8irtue be5ore now, and to many &ersons==and 8ery 3ood ones t%ey were, as . t%ou3%t==at t%is moment . )annot e8en say w%at 8irtue is, (nd . t%in6 t%at you are 8ery wise in not 8oya3in3 and 3oin3 away 5rom %ome, 5or i5 you did in ot%er &la)es as you do in (t%ens, you would be )ast into &rison as a ma3i)ian, 'O2/(TE'> :ou are a ro3ue, Meno, and %ad all but )au3%t me, MENO> ;%at do you mean, 'o)rates< 'O2/(TE'> . )an tell w%y you made a simile about me, MENO> ;%y< 'O2/(TE'> .n order t%at . mi3%t ma6e anot%er simile about you, For . 6now t%at all &retty youn3 3entlemen li6e to %a8e &retty similes made about t%em==as well t%ey may==but . s%all not return t%e )om&liment, (s to my bein3 a tor&edo, i5 t%e tor&edo is tor&id as well as t%e )ause o5 tor&idity in ot%ers, t%en indeed . am a tor&edo, but not ot%erwise? 5or . &er&lex ot%ers, not be)ause . am )lear, but be)ause . am utterly &er&lexed mysel5, (nd now . 6now not w%at 8irtue is, and you seem to be in t%e same )ase,

alt%ou3% you did on)e &er%a&s 6now be5ore you tou)%ed me, Bowe8er, . %a8e no obje)tion to join wit% you in t%e en4uiry, MENO> (nd %ow will you en4uire, 'o)rates, into t%at w%i)% you do not 6now< ;%at will you &ut 5ort% as t%e subje)t o5 en4uiry< (nd i5 you 5ind w%at you want, %ow will you e8er 6now t%at t%is is t%e t%in3 w%i)% you did not 6now< 'O2/(TE'> . 6now, Meno, w%at you mean? but just see w%at a tiresome dis&ute you are introdu)in3, :ou ar3ue t%at a man )annot en4uire eit%er about t%at w%i)% %e 6nows, or about t%at w%i)% %e does not 6now? 5or i5 %e 6nows, %e %as no need to en4uire? and i5 not, %e )annot? 5or %e does not 6now t%e 8ery subje)t about w%i)% %e is to en4uire D2om&are (ristot, Post, (nal,E, MENO> ;ell, 'o)rates, and is not t%e ar3ument sound< 'O2/(TE'> . t%in6 not, MENO> ;%y not< 'O2/(TE'> . will tell you w%y> . %a8e %eard 5rom )ertain wise men and women w%o s&o6e o5 t%in3s di8ine t%at== MENO> ;%at did t%ey say< 'O2/(TE'> T%ey s&o6e o5 a 3lorious trut%, as . )on)ei8e, MENO> ;%at was it< and w%o were t%ey< 'O2/(TE'> 'ome o5 t%em were &riests and &riestesses, w%o %ad studied %ow t%ey mi3%t be able to 3i8e a reason o5 t%eir &ro5ession> t%ere %a8e been &oets also, w%o s&o6e o5 t%ese t%in3s by ins&iration, li6e Pindar, and many ot%ers w%o were ins&ired, (nd t%ey say==mar6, now, and see w%et%er t%eir words are true==t%ey say t%at t%e soul o5 man is immortal, and at one time %as an end, w%i)% is termed dyin3, and at anot%er time is born a3ain, but is ne8er destroyed, (nd t%e moral is, t%at a man ou3%t to li8e always in

&er5e)t %oliness, 7For in t%e nint% year Perse&%one sends t%e souls o5 t%ose 5rom w%om s%e %as re)ei8ed t%e &enalty o5 an)ient )rime ba)6 a3ain 5rom beneat% into t%e li3%t o5 t%e sun abo8e, and t%ese are t%ey w%o be)ome noble 6in3s and mi3%ty men and 3reat in wisdom and are )alled saintly %eroes in a5ter a3es,7 T%e soul, t%en, as bein3 immortal, and %a8in3 been born a3ain many times, and %a8in3 seen all t%in3s t%at exist, w%et%er in t%is world or in t%e world below, %as 6nowled3e o5 t%em all? and it is no wonder t%at s%e s%ould be able to )all to remembran)e all t%at s%e e8er 6new about 8irtue, and about e8eryt%in3? 5or as all nature is a6in, and t%e soul %as learned all t%in3s? t%ere is no di55i)ulty in %er eli)itin3 or as men say learnin3, out o5 a sin3le re)olle)tion all t%e rest, i5 a man is strenuous and does not 5aint? 5or all en4uiry and all learnin3 is but re)olle)tion, (nd t%ere5ore we ou3%t not to listen to t%is so&%isti)al ar3ument about t%e im&ossibility o5 en4uiry> 5or it will ma6e us idle? and is sweet only to t%e slu33ard? but t%e ot%er sayin3 will ma6e us a)ti8e and in4uisiti8e, .n t%at )on5idin3, . will 3ladly en4uire wit% you into t%e nature o5 8irtue, MENO> :es, 'o)rates? but w%at do you mean by sayin3 t%at we do not learn, and t%at w%at we )all learnin3 is only a &ro)ess o5 re)olle)tion< 2an you tea)% me %ow t%is is< 'O2/(TE'> . told you, Meno, just now t%at you were a ro3ue, and now you as6 w%et%er . )an tea)% you, w%en . am sayin3 t%at t%ere is no tea)%in3, but only re)olle)tion? and t%us you ima3ine t%at you will in8ol8e me in a )ontradi)tion, MENO> .ndeed, 'o)rates, . &rotest t%at . %ad no su)% intention, . only as6ed t%e 4uestion 5rom %abit? but i5 you )an &ro8e to me t%at w%at you say is true, . wis% t%at you would, 'O2/(TE'> .t will be no easy matter, but . will try to &lease you to t%e utmost o5 my &ower, 'u&&ose t%at you )all one o5 your numerous attendants, t%at . may demonstrate on %im, MENO> 2ertainly, 2ome %it%er, boy,

'O2/(TE'> Be is 9ree6, and s&ea6s 9ree6, does %e not< MENO> :es, indeed? %e was born in t%e %ouse, 'O2/(TE'> (ttend now to t%e 4uestions w%i)% . as6 %im, and obser8e w%et%er %e learns o5 me or only remembers, MENO> . will, 'O2/(TE'> Tell me, boy, do you 6now t%at a 5i3ure li6e t%is is a s4uare< BO:> . do, 'O2/(TE'> (nd you 6now t%at a s4uare 5i3ure %as t%ese 5our lines e4ual< BO:> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%ese lines w%i)% . %a8e drawn t%rou3% t%e middle o5 t%e s4uare are also e4ual< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> ( s4uare may be o5 any siCe< BO:> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 one side o5 t%e 5i3ure be o5 two 5eet, and t%e ot%er side be o5 two 5eet, %ow mu)% will t%e w%ole be< @et me ex&lain> i5 in one dire)tion t%e s&a)e was o5 two 5eet, and in t%e ot%er dire)tion o5 one 5oot, t%e w%ole would be o5 two 5eet ta6en on)e< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> But sin)e t%is side is also o5 two 5eet, t%ere are twi)e two 5eet< BO:> T%ere are, 'O2/(TE'> T%en t%e s4uare is o5 twi)e two 5eet<

BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd %ow many are twi)e two 5eet< )ount and tell me, BO:> Four, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> (nd mi3%t t%ere not be anot%er s4uare twi)e as lar3e as t%is, and %a8in3 li6e t%is t%e lines e4ual< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd o5 %ow many 5eet will t%at be< BO:> O5 ei3%t 5eet, 'O2/(TE'> (nd now try and tell me t%e len3t% o5 t%e line w%i)% 5orms t%e side o5 t%at double s4uare> t%is is two 5eet==w%at will t%at be< BO:> 2learly, 'o)rates, it will be double, 'O2/(TE'> 0o you obser8e, Meno, t%at . am not tea)%in3 t%e boy anyt%in3, but only as6in3 %im 4uestions? and now %e 5an)ies t%at %e 6nows %ow lon3 a line is ne)essary in order to &rodu)e a 5i3ure o5 ei3%t s4uare 5eet? does %e not< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd does %e really 6now< MENO> 2ertainly not, 'O2/(TE'> Be only 3uesses t%at be)ause t%e s4uare is double, t%e line is double, MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> Obser8e %im w%ile %e re)alls t%e ste&s in re3ular order, DTo

t%e Boy>E Tell me, boy, do you assert t%at a double s&a)e )omes 5rom a double line< /emember t%at . am not s&ea6in3 o5 an oblon3, but o5 a 5i3ure e4ual e8ery way, and twi)e t%e siCe o5 t%is==t%at is to say o5 ei3%t 5eet? and . want to 6now w%et%er you still say t%at a double s4uare )omes 5rom double line< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> But does not t%is line be)ome doubled i5 we add anot%er su)% line %ere< BO:> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd 5our su)% lines will ma6e a s&a)e )ontainin3 ei3%t 5eet< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> @et us des)ribe su)% a 5i3ure> ;ould you not say t%at t%is is t%e 5i3ure o5 ei3%t 5eet< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd are t%ere not t%ese 5our di8isions in t%e 5i3ure, ea)% o5 w%i)% is e4ual to t%e 5i3ure o5 5our 5eet< BO:> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd is not t%at 5our times 5our< BO:> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd 5our times is not double< BO:> No, indeed, 'O2/(TE'> But %ow mu)%< BO:> Four times as mu)%, 'O2/(TE'> T%ere5ore t%e double line, boy, %as 3i8en a s&a)e, not twi)e,

but 5our times as mu)%, BO:> True, 'O2/(TE'> Four times 5our are sixteen==are t%ey not< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> ;%at line would 3i8e you a s&a)e o5 ei3%t 5eet, as t%is 3i8es one o5 sixteen 5eet?==do you see< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e s&a)e o5 5our 5eet is made 5rom t%is %al5 line< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> 9ood? and is not a s&a)e o5 ei3%t 5eet twi)e t%e siCe o5 t%is, and %al5 t%e siCe o5 t%e ot%er< BO:> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> 'u)% a s&a)e, t%en, will be made out o5 a line 3reater t%an t%is one, and less t%an t%at one< BO:> :es? . t%in6 so, 'O2/(TE'> Aery 3ood? . li6e to %ear you say w%at you t%in6, (nd now tell me, is not t%is a line o5 two 5eet and t%at o5 5our< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> T%en t%e line w%i)% 5orms t%e side o5 ei3%t 5eet ou3%t to be more t%an t%is line o5 two 5eet, and less t%an t%e ot%er o5 5our 5eet< BO:> .t ou3%t, 'O2/(TE'> Try and see i5 you )an tell me %ow mu)% it will be,

BO:> T%ree 5eet, 'O2/(TE'> T%en i5 we add a %al5 to t%is line o5 two, t%at will be t%e line o5 t%ree, Bere are two and t%ere is one? and on t%e ot%er side, %ere are two also and t%ere is one> and t%at ma6es t%e 5i3ure o5 w%i)% you s&ea6< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 t%ere are t%ree 5eet t%is way and t%ree 5eet t%at way, t%e w%ole s&a)e will be t%ree times t%ree 5eet< BO:> T%at is e8ident, 'O2/(TE'> (nd %ow mu)% are t%ree times t%ree 5eet< BO:> Nine, 'O2/(TE'> (nd %ow mu)% is t%e double o5 5our< BO:> Ei3%t, 'O2/(TE'> T%en t%e 5i3ure o5 ei3%t is not made out o5 a line o5 t%ree< BO:> No, 'O2/(TE'> But 5rom w%at line<==tell me exa)tly? and i5 you would rat%er not re)6on, try and s%ow me t%e line, BO:> .ndeed, 'o)rates, . do not 6now, 'O2/(TE'> 0o you see, Meno, w%at ad8an)es %e %as made in %is &ower o5 re)olle)tion< Be did not 6now at 5irst, and %e does not 6now now, w%at is t%e side o5 a 5i3ure o5 ei3%t 5eet> but t%en %e t%ou3%t t%at %e 6new, and answered )on5idently as i5 %e 6new, and %ad no di55i)ulty? now %e %as a di55i)ulty, and neit%er 6nows nor 5an)ies t%at %e 6nows, MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> .s %e not better o55 in 6nowin3 %is i3noran)e<

MENO> . t%in6 t%at %e is, 'O2/(TE'> .5 we %a8e made %im doubt, and 3i8en %im t%e 7tor&edo7s s%o)6,7 %a8e we done %im any %arm< MENO> . t%in6 not, 'O2/(TE'> ;e %a8e )ertainly, as would seem, assisted %im in some de3ree to t%e dis)o8ery o5 t%e trut%? and now %e will wis% to remedy %is i3noran)e, but t%en %e would %a8e been ready to tell all t%e world a3ain and a3ain t%at t%e double s&a)e s%ould %a8e a double side, MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> But do you su&&ose t%at %e would e8er %a8e en4uired into or learned w%at %e 5an)ied t%at %e 6new, t%ou3% %e was really i3norant o5 it, until %e %ad 5allen into &er&lexity under t%e idea t%at %e did not 6now, and %ad desired to 6now< MENO> . t%in6 not, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> T%en %e was t%e better 5or t%e tor&edo7s tou)%< MENO> . t%in6 so, 'O2/(TE'> Mar6 now t%e 5art%er de8elo&ment, . s%all only as6 %im, and not tea)% %im, and %e s%all s%are t%e en4uiry wit% me> and do you wat)% and see i5 you 5ind me tellin3 or ex&lainin3 anyt%in3 to %im, instead o5 eli)itin3 %is o&inion, Tell me, boy, is not t%is a s4uare o5 5our 5eet w%i)% . %a8e drawn< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd now . add anot%er s4uare e4ual to t%e 5ormer one< BO:> :es,

'O2/(TE'> (nd a t%ird, w%i)% is e4ual to eit%er o5 t%em< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> 'u&&ose t%at we 5ill u& t%e 8a)ant )orner< BO:> Aery 3ood, 'O2/(TE'> Bere, t%en, t%ere are 5our e4ual s&a)es< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd %ow many times lar3er is t%is s&a)e t%an t%is ot%er< BO:> Four times, 'O2/(TE'> But it ou3%t to %a8e been twi)e only, as you will remember, BO:> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd does not t%is line, rea)%in3 5rom )orner to )orner, bise)t ea)% o5 t%ese s&a)es< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd are t%ere not %ere 5our e4ual lines w%i)% )ontain t%is s&a)e< BO:> T%ere are, 'O2/(TE'> @oo6 and see %ow mu)% t%is s&a)e is, BO:> . do not understand, 'O2/(TE'> Bas not ea)% interior line )ut o55 %al5 o5 t%e 5our s&a)es< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd %ow many s&a)es are t%ere in t%is se)tion<

BO:> Four, 'O2/(TE'> (nd %ow many in t%is< BO:> Two, 'O2/(TE'> (nd 5our is %ow many times two< BO:> Twi)e, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%is s&a)e is o5 %ow many 5eet< BO:> O5 ei3%t 5eet, 'O2/(TE'> (nd 5rom w%at line do you 3et t%is 5i3ure< BO:> From t%is, 'O2/(TE'> T%at is, 5rom t%e line w%i)% extends 5rom )orner to )orner o5 t%e 5i3ure o5 5our 5eet< BO:> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%at is t%e line w%i)% t%e learned )all t%e dia3onal, (nd i5 t%is is t%e &ro&er name, t%en you, Meno7s sla8e, are &re&ared to a55irm t%at t%e double s&a)e is t%e s4uare o5 t%e dia3onal< BO:> 2ertainly, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> ;%at do you say o5 %im, Meno< ;ere not all t%ese answers 3i8en out o5 %is own %ead< MENO> :es, t%ey were all %is own, 'O2/(TE'> (nd yet, as we were just now sayin3, %e did not 6now< MENO> True,

'O2/(TE'> But still %e %ad in %im t%ose notions o5 %is==%ad %e not< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> T%en %e w%o does not 6now may still %a8e true notions o5 t%at w%i)% %e does not 6now< MENO> Be %as, 'O2/(TE'> (nd at &resent t%ese notions %a8e just been stirred u& in %im, as in a dream? but i5 %e were 5re4uently as6ed t%e same 4uestions, in di55erent 5orms, %e would 6now as well as any one at last< MENO> . dare say, 'O2/(TE'> ;it%out any one tea)%in3 %im %e will re)o8er %is 6nowled3e 5or %imsel5, i5 %e is only as6ed 4uestions< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%is s&ontaneous re)o8ery o5 6nowled3e in %im is re)olle)tion< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%is 6nowled3e w%i)% %e now %as must %e not eit%er %a8e a)4uired or always &ossessed< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 %e always &ossessed t%is 6nowled3e %e would always %a8e 6nown? or i5 %e %as a)4uired t%e 6nowled3e %e )ould not %a8e a)4uired it in t%is li5e, unless %e %as been tau3%t 3eometry? 5or %e may be made to do t%e same wit% all 3eometry and e8ery ot%er bran)% o5 6nowled3e, Now, %as any one e8er tau3%t %im all t%is< :ou must 6now about %im, i5, as you say, %e was born and bred in your %ouse,

MENO> (nd . am )ertain t%at no one e8er did tea)% %im, 'O2/(TE'> (nd yet %e %as t%e 6nowled3e< MENO> T%e 5a)t, 'o)rates, is undeniable, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 %e did not a)4uire t%e 6nowled3e in t%is li5e, t%en %e must %a8e %ad and learned it at some ot%er time< MENO> 2learly %e must, 'O2/(TE'> ;%i)% must %a8e been t%e time w%en %e was not a man< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 t%ere %a8e been always true t%ou3%ts in %im, bot% at t%e time w%en %e was and was not a man, w%i)% only need to be awa6ened into 6nowled3e by &uttin3 4uestions to %im, %is soul must %a8e always &ossessed t%is 6nowled3e, 5or %e always eit%er was or was not a man< MENO> Ob8iously, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 t%e trut% o5 all t%in3s always existed in t%e soul, t%en t%e soul is immortal, ;%ere5ore be o5 3ood )%eer, and try to re)olle)t w%at you do not 6now, or rat%er w%at you do not remember, MENO> . 5eel, some%ow, t%at . li6e w%at you are sayin3, 'O2/(TE'> (nd ., Meno, li6e w%at . am sayin3, 'ome t%in3s . %a8e said o5 w%i)% . am not alto3et%er )on5ident, But t%at we s%all be better and bra8er and less %el&less i5 we t%in6 t%at we ou3%t to en4uire, t%an we s%ould %a8e been i5 we indul3ed in t%e idle 5an)y t%at t%ere was no 6nowin3 and no use in see6in3 to 6now w%at we do not 6now?==t%at is a t%eme u&on w%i)% . am ready to 5i3%t, in word and deed, to t%e utmost o5 my &ower, MENO> T%ere a3ain, 'o)rates, your words seem to me ex)ellent,

'O2/(TE'> T%en, as we are a3reed t%at a man s%ould en4uire about t%at w%i)% %e does not 6now, s%all you and . ma6e an e55ort to en4uire to3et%er into t%e nature o5 8irtue< MENO> By all means, 'o)rates, (nd yet . would mu)% rat%er return to my ori3inal 4uestion, ;%et%er in see6in3 to a)4uire 8irtue we s%ould re3ard it as a t%in3 to be tau3%t, or as a 3i5t o5 nature, or as )omin3 to men in some ot%er way< 'O2/(TE'> Bad . t%e )ommand o5 you as well as o5 mysel5, Meno, . would not %a8e en4uired w%et%er 8irtue is 3i8en by instru)tion or not, until we %ad 5irst as)ertained 7w%at it is,7 But as you t%in6 only o5 )ontrollin3 me w%o am your sla8e, and ne8er o5 )ontrollin3 yoursel5,==su)% bein3 your notion o5 5reedom, . must yield to you, 5or you are irresistible, (nd t%ere5ore . %a8e now to en4uire into t%e 4ualities o5 a t%in3 o5 w%i)% . do not as yet 6now t%e nature, (t any rate, will you )ondes)end a little, and allow t%e 4uestion 7;%et%er 8irtue is 3i8en by instru)tion, or in any ot%er way,7 to be ar3ued u&on %y&ot%esis< (s t%e 3eometri)ian, w%en %e is as6ed w%et%er a )ertain trian3le is )a&able bein3 ins)ribed in a )ertain )ir)le DOr, w%et%er a )ertain area is )a&able o5 bein3 ins)ribed as a trian3le in a )ertain )ir)le,E, will re&ly> 7. )annot tell you as yet? but . will o55er a %y&ot%esis w%i)% may assist us in 5ormin3 a )on)lusion> .5 t%e 5i3ure be su)% t%at w%en you %a8e &rodu)ed a 3i8en side o5 it DOr, w%en you a&&ly it to t%e 3i8en line, i,e, t%e diameter o5 t%e )ir)le DautouE,E, t%e 3i8en area o5 t%e trian3le 5alls s%ort by an area )orres&ondin3 to t%e &art &rodu)ed DOr, similar to t%e area so a&&lied,E, t%en one )onse4uen)e 5ollows, and i5 t%is is im&ossible t%en some ot%er? and t%ere5ore . wis% to assume a %y&ot%esis be5ore . tell you w%et%er t%is trian3le is )a&able o5 bein3 ins)ribed in t%e )ir)le7>==t%at is a 3eometri)al %y&ot%esis, (nd we too, as we 6now not t%e nature and 4ualities o5 8irtue, must as6, w%et%er 8irtue is or is not tau3%t, under a %y&ot%esis> as t%us, i5 8irtue is o5 su)% a )lass o5 mental 3oods, will it be tau3%t or not< @et t%e 5irst %y&ot%esis be t%at 8irtue is or is not 6nowled3e,==in t%at )ase will it be tau3%t or not< or, as we were just now sayin3, 7remembered7< For t%ere is no use in dis&utin3 about t%e name, But is 8irtue tau3%t or not< or rat%er, does not e8ery one see t%at 6nowled3e alone is tau3%t< MENO> . a3ree,

'O2/(TE'> T%en i5 8irtue is 6nowled3e, 8irtue will be tau3%t< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> T%en now we %a8e made a 4ui)6 end o5 t%is 4uestion> i5 8irtue is o5 su)% a nature, it will be tau3%t? and i5 not, not< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> T%e next 4uestion is, w%et%er 8irtue is 6nowled3e or o5 anot%er s&e)ies< MENO> :es, t%at a&&ears to be t%e 4uestion w%i)% )omes next in order, 'O2/(TE'> 0o we not say t%at 8irtue is a 3ood<==T%is is a %y&ot%esis w%i)% is not set aside, MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> Now, i5 t%ere be any sort o5 3ood w%i)% is distin)t 5rom 6nowled3e, 8irtue may be t%at 3ood? but i5 6nowled3e embra)es all 3ood, t%en we s%all be ri3%t in t%in6in3 t%at 8irtue is 6nowled3e< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd 8irtue ma6es us 3ood< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 we are 3ood, t%en we are &ro5itable? 5or all 3ood t%in3s are &ro5itable< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> T%en 8irtue is &ro5itable< MENO> T%at is t%e only in5eren)e,

'O2/(TE'> T%en now let us see w%at are t%e t%in3s w%i)% se8erally &ro5it us, Bealt% and stren3t%, and beauty and wealt%==t%ese, and t%e li6e o5 t%ese, we )all &ro5itable< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd yet t%ese t%in3s may also sometimes do us %arm> would you not t%in6 so< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd w%at is t%e 3uidin3 &rin)i&le w%i)% ma6es t%em &ro5itable or t%e re8erse< (re t%ey not &ro5itable w%en t%ey are ri3%tly used, and %urt5ul w%en t%ey are not ri3%tly used< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> Next, let us )onsider t%e 3oods o5 t%e soul> t%ey are tem&eran)e, justi)e, )oura3e, 4ui)6ness o5 a&&re%ension, memory, ma3nanimity, and t%e li6e< MENO> 'urely, 'O2/(TE'> (nd su)% o5 t%ese as are not 6nowled3e, but o5 anot%er sort, are sometimes &ro5itable and sometimes %urt5ul? as, 5or exam&le, )oura3e wantin3 &ruden)e, w%i)% is only a sort o5 )on5iden)e< ;%en a man %as no sense %e is %armed by )oura3e, but w%en %e %as sense %e is &ro5ited< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e same may be said o5 tem&eran)e and 4ui)6ness o5 a&&re%ension? w%ate8er t%in3s are learned or done wit% sense are &ro5itable, but w%en done wit%out sense t%ey are %urt5ul< MENO> Aery true,

'O2/(TE'> (nd in 3eneral, all t%at t%e soul attem&ts or endures, w%en under t%e 3uidan)e o5 wisdom, ends in %a&&iness? but w%en s%e is under t%e 3uidan)e o5 5olly, in t%e o&&osite< MENO> T%at a&&ears to be true, 'O2/(TE'> .5 t%en 8irtue is a 4uality o5 t%e soul, and is admitted to be &ro5itable, it must be wisdom or &ruden)e, sin)e none o5 t%e t%in3s o5 t%e soul are eit%er &ro5itable or %urt5ul in t%emsel8es, but t%ey are all made &ro5itable or %urt5ul by t%e addition o5 wisdom or o5 5olly? and t%ere5ore i5 8irtue is &ro5itable, 8irtue must be a sort o5 wisdom or &ruden)e< MENO> . 4uite a3ree, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e ot%er 3oods, su)% as wealt% and t%e li6e, o5 w%i)% we were just now sayin3 t%at t%ey are sometimes 3ood and sometimes e8il, do not t%ey also be)ome &ro5itable or %urt5ul, a))ordin3ly as t%e soul 3uides and uses t%em ri3%tly or wron3ly? just as t%e t%in3s o5 t%e soul %ersel5 are bene5ited w%en under t%e 3uidan)e o5 wisdom and %armed by 5olly< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e wise soul 3uides t%em ri3%tly, and t%e 5oolis% soul wron3ly, MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd is not t%is uni8ersally true o5 %uman nature< (ll ot%er t%in3s %an3 u&on t%e soul, and t%e t%in3s o5 t%e soul %ersel5 %an3 u&on wisdom, i5 t%ey are to be 3ood? and so wisdom is in5erred to be t%at w%i)% &ro5its==and 8irtue, as we say, is &ro5itable< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%us we arri8e at t%e )on)lusion t%at 8irtue is eit%er w%olly or &artly wisdom< MENO> . t%in6 t%at w%at you are sayin3, 'o)rates, is 8ery true, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 t%is is true, t%en t%e 3ood are not by nature 3ood<

MENO> . t%in6 not, 'O2/(TE'> .5 t%ey %ad been, t%ere would assuredly %a8e been dis)erners o5 )%ara)ters amon3 us w%o would %a8e 6nown our 5uture 3reat men? and on t%eir s%owin3 we s%ould %a8e ado&ted t%em, and w%en we %ad 3ot t%em, we s%ould %a8e 6e&t t%em in t%e )itadel out o5 t%e way o5 %arm, and set a stam& u&on t%em 5ar rat%er t%an u&on a &ie)e o5 3old, in order t%at no one mi3%t tam&er wit% t%em? and w%en t%ey 3rew u& t%ey would %a8e been use5ul to t%e state< MENO> :es, 'o)rates, t%at would %a8e been t%e ri3%t way, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 t%e 3ood are not by nature 3ood, are t%ey made 3ood by instru)tion< MENO> T%ere a&&ears to be no ot%er alternati8e, 'o)rates, On t%e su&&osition t%at 8irtue is 6nowled3e, t%ere )an be no doubt t%at 8irtue is tau3%t, 'O2/(TE'> :es, indeed? but w%at i5 t%e su&&osition is erroneous< MENO> . )ertainly t%ou3%t just now t%at we were ri3%t, 'O2/(TE'> :es, Meno? but a &rin)i&le w%i)% %as any soundness s%ould stand 5irm not only just now, but always, MENO> ;ell? and w%y are you so slow o5 %eart to belie8e t%at 6nowled3e is 8irtue< 'O2/(TE'> . will try and tell you w%y, Meno, . do not retra)t t%e assertion t%at i5 8irtue is 6nowled3e it may be tau3%t? but . 5ear t%at . %a8e some reason in doubtin3 w%et%er 8irtue is 6nowled3e> 5or )onsider now

and say w%et%er 8irtue, and not only 8irtue but anyt%in3 t%at is tau3%t, must not %a8e tea)%ers and dis)i&les< MENO> 'urely, 'O2/(TE'> (nd )on8ersely, may not t%e art o5 w%i)% neit%er tea)%ers nor dis)i&les exist be assumed to be in)a&able o5 bein3 tau3%t< MENO> True? but do you t%in6 t%at t%ere are no tea)%ers o5 8irtue< 'O2/(TE'> . %a8e )ertainly o5ten en4uired w%et%er t%ere were any, and ta6en 3reat &ains to 5ind t%em, and %a8e ne8er su))eeded? and many %a8e assisted me in t%e sear)%, and t%ey were t%e &ersons w%om . t%ou3%t t%e most li6ely to 6now, Bere at t%e moment w%en %e is wanted we 5ortunately %a8e sittin3 by us (nytus, t%e 8ery &erson o5 w%om we s%ould ma6e en4uiry? to %im t%en let us re&air, .n t%e 5irst &la)e, %e is t%e son o5 a wealt%y and wise 5at%er, (nt%emion, w%o a)4uired %is wealt%, not by a))ident or 3i5t, li6e .smenias t%e T%eban Dw%o %as re)ently made %imsel5 as ri)% as Poly)ratesE, but by %is own s6ill and industry, and w%o is a well= )onditioned, modest man, not insolent, or o8erbearin3, or annoyin3? moreo8er, t%is son o5 %is %as re)ei8ed a 3ood edu)ation, as t%e (t%enian &eo&le )ertainly a&&ear to t%in6, 5or t%ey )%oose %im to 5ill t%e %i3%est o55i)es, (nd t%ese are t%e sort o5 men 5rom w%om you are li6ely to learn w%et%er t%ere are any tea)%ers o5 8irtue, and w%o t%ey are, Please, (nytus, to %el& me and your 5riend Meno in answerin3 our 4uestion, ;%o are t%e tea)%ers< 2onsider t%e matter t%us> .5 we wanted Meno to be a 3ood &%ysi)ian, to w%om s%ould we send %im< '%ould we not send %im to t%e &%ysi)ians< (N:T1'> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> Or i5 we wanted %im to be a 3ood )obbler, s%ould we not send %im to t%e )obblers< (N:T1'> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd so 5ort%<

(N:T1'> :es, 'O2/(TE'> @et me trouble you wit% one more 4uestion, ;%en we say t%at we s%ould be ri3%t in sendin3 %im to t%e &%ysi)ians i5 we wanted %im to be a &%ysi)ian, do we mean t%at we s%ould be ri3%t in sendin3 %im to t%ose w%o &ro5ess t%e art, rat%er t%an to t%ose w%o do not, and to t%ose w%o demand &ayment 5or tea)%in3 t%e art, and &ro5ess to tea)% it to any one w%o will )ome and learn< (nd i5 t%ese were our reasons, s%ould we not be ri3%t in sendin3 %im< (N:T1'> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd mi3%t not t%e same be said o5 5lute=&layin3, and o5 t%e ot%er arts< ;ould a man w%o wanted to ma6e anot%er a 5lute=&layer re5use to send %im to t%ose w%o &ro5ess to tea)% t%e art 5or money, and be &la3uin3 ot%er &ersons to 3i8e %im instru)tion, w%o are not &ro5essed tea)%ers and w%o ne8er %ad a sin3le dis)i&le in t%at bran)% o5 6nowled3e w%i)% %e wis%es %im to a)4uire==would not su)% )ondu)t be t%e %ei3%t o5 5olly< (N:T1'> :es, by Neus, and o5 i3noran)e too, 'O2/(TE'> Aery 3ood, (nd now you are in a &osition to ad8ise wit% me about my 5riend Meno, Be %as been tellin3 me, (nytus, t%at %e desires to attain t%at 6ind o5 wisdom and 8irtue by w%i)% men order t%e state or t%e %ouse, and %onour t%eir &arents, and 6now w%en to re)ei8e and w%en to send away )itiCens and stran3ers, as a 3ood man s%ould, Now, to w%om s%ould %e 3o in order t%at %e may learn t%is 8irtue< 0oes not t%e &re8ious ar3ument im&ly )learly t%at we s%ould send %im to t%ose w%o &ro5ess and a8ou)% t%at t%ey are t%e )ommon tea)%ers o5 all Bellas, and are ready to im&art instru)tion to any one w%o li6es, at a 5ixed &ri)e< (N:T1'> ;%om do you mean, 'o)rates< 'O2/(TE'> :ou surely 6now, do you not, (nytus, t%at t%ese are t%e &eo&le w%om man6ind )all 'o&%ists<

(N:T1'> By Bera)les, 'o)rates, 5orbearL . only %o&e t%at no 5riend or 6insman or a)4uaintan)e o5 mine, w%et%er )itiCen or stran3er, will e8er be so mad as to allow %imsel5 to be )orru&ted by t%em? 5or t%ey are a mani5est &est and )orru&tin3 in5luen)e to t%ose w%o %a8e to do wit% t%em, 'O2/(TE'> ;%at, (nytus< O5 all t%e &eo&le w%o &ro5ess t%at t%ey 6now %ow to do men 3ood, do you mean to say t%at t%ese are t%e only ones w%o not only do t%em no 3ood, but &ositi8ely )orru&t t%ose w%o are entrusted to t%em, and in return 5or t%is disser8i)e %a8e t%e 5a)e to demand money< .ndeed, . )annot belie8e you? 5or . 6now o5 a sin3le man, Prota3oras, w%o made more out o5 %is )ra5t t%an t%e illustrious P%eidias, w%o )reated su)% noble wor6s, or any ten ot%er statuaries, Bow )ould t%at be< ( mender o5 old s%oes, or &at)%er u& o5 )lot%es, w%o made t%e s%oes or )lot%es worse t%an %e re)ei8ed t%em, )ould not %a8e remained t%irty days undete)ted, and would 8ery soon %a8e star8ed? w%ereas durin3 more t%an 5orty years, Prota3oras was )orru&tin3 all Bellas, and sendin3 %is dis)i&les 5rom %im worse t%an %e re)ei8ed t%em, and %e was ne8er 5ound out, For, i5 . am not mista6en, %e was about se8enty years old at %is deat%, 5orty o5 w%i)% were s&ent in t%e &ra)ti)e o5 %is &ro5ession? and durin3 all t%at time %e %ad a 3ood re&utation, w%i)% to t%is day %e retains> and not only Prota3oras, but many ot%ers are well s&o6en o5? some w%o li8ed be5ore %im, and ot%ers w%o are still li8in3, Now, w%en you say t%at t%ey de)ei8ed and )orru&ted t%e yout%, are t%ey to be su&&osed to %a8e )orru&ted t%em )ons)iously or un)ons)iously< 2an t%ose w%o were deemed by many to be t%e wisest men o5 Bellas %a8e been out o5 t%eir minds< (N:T1'> Out o5 t%eir mindsL No, 'o)rates? t%e youn3 men w%o 3a8e t%eir money to t%em were out o5 t%eir minds, and t%eir relations and 3uardians w%o entrusted t%eir yout% to t%e )are o5 t%ese men were still more out o5 t%eir minds, and most o5 all, t%e )ities w%o allowed t%em to )ome in, and did not dri8e t%em out, )itiCen and stran3er ali6e, 'O2/(TE'> Bas any o5 t%e 'o&%ists wron3ed you, (nytus< ;%at ma6es you so an3ry wit% t%em< (N:T1'> No, indeed, neit%er . nor any o5 my belon3in3s %as e8er %ad, nor

would . su55er t%em to %a8e, anyt%in3 to do wit% t%em, 'O2/(TE'> T%en you are entirely una)4uainted wit% t%em< (N:T1'> (nd . %a8e no wis% to be a)4uainted, 'O2/(TE'> T%en, my dear 5riend, %ow )an you 6now w%et%er a t%in3 is 3ood or bad o5 w%i)% you are w%olly i3norant< (N:T1'> Muite well? . am sure t%at . 6now w%at manner o5 men t%ese are, w%et%er . am a)4uainted wit% t%em or not, 'O2/(TE'> :ou must be a di8iner, (nytus, 5or . really )annot ma6e out, jud3in3 5rom your own words, %ow, i5 you are not a)4uainted wit% t%em, you 6now about t%em, But . am not en4uirin3 o5 you w%o are t%e tea)%ers w%o will )orru&t Meno Dlet t%em be, i5 you &lease, t%e 'o&%istsE? . only as6 you to tell %im w%o t%ere is in t%is 3reat )ity w%o will tea)% %im %ow to be)ome eminent in t%e 8irtues w%i)% . was just now des)ribin3, Be is t%e 5riend o5 your 5amily, and you will obli3e %im, (N:T1'> ;%y do you not tell %im yoursel5< 'O2/(TE'> . %a8e told %im w%om . su&&osed to be t%e tea)%ers o5 t%ese t%in3s? but . learn 5rom you t%at . am utterly at 5ault, and . dare say t%at you are ri3%t, (nd now . wis% t%at you, on your &art, would tell me to w%om amon3 t%e (t%enians %e s%ould 3o, ;%om would you name< (N:T1'> ;%y sin3le out indi8iduals< (ny (t%enian 3entleman, ta6en at random, i5 %e will mind %im, will do 5ar more 3ood to %im t%an t%e 'o&%ists, 'O2/(TE'> (nd did t%ose 3entlemen 3row o5 t%emsel8es? and wit%out %a8in3 been tau3%t by any one, were t%ey ne8ert%eless able to tea)% ot%ers t%at w%i)% t%ey %ad ne8er learned t%emsel8es< (N:T1'> . ima3ine t%at t%ey learned o5 t%e &re8ious 3eneration o5 3entlemen, Ba8e t%ere not been many 3ood men in t%is )ity<

'O2/(TE'> :es, )ertainly, (nytus? and many 3ood statesmen also t%ere always %a8e been and t%ere are still, in t%e )ity o5 (t%ens, But t%e 4uestion is w%et%er t%ey were also 3ood tea)%ers o5 t%eir own 8irtue?==not w%et%er t%ere are, or %a8e been, 3ood men in t%is &art o5 t%e world, but w%et%er 8irtue )an be tau3%t, is t%e 4uestion w%i)% we %a8e been dis)ussin3, Now, do we mean to say t%at t%e 3ood men o5 our own and o5 ot%er times 6new %ow to im&art to ot%ers t%at 8irtue w%i)% t%ey %ad t%emsel8es? or is 8irtue a t%in3 in)a&able o5 bein3 )ommuni)ated or im&arted by one man to anot%er< T%at is t%e 4uestion w%i)% . and Meno %a8e been ar3uin3, @oo6 at t%e matter in your own way> ;ould you not admit t%at T%emisto)les was a 3ood man< (N:T1'> 2ertainly? no man better, 'O2/(TE'> (nd must not %e t%en %a8e been a 3ood tea)%er, i5 any man e8er was a 3ood tea)%er, o5 %is own 8irtue< (N:T1'> :es )ertainly,==i5 %e wanted to be so, 'O2/(TE'> But would %e not %a8e wanted< Be would, at any rate, %a8e desired to ma6e %is own son a 3ood man and a 3entleman? %e )ould not %a8e been jealous o5 %im, or %a8e intentionally abstained 5rom im&artin3 to %im %is own 8irtue, 0id you ne8er %ear t%at %e made %is son 2leo&%antus a 5amous %orseman? and %ad %im tau3%t to stand u&ri3%t on %orseba)6 and %url a ja8elin, and to do many ot%er mar8ellous t%in3s? and in anyt%in3 w%i)% )ould be learned 5rom a master %e was well trained< Ba8e you not %eard 5rom our elders o5 %im< (N:T1'> . %a8e, 'O2/(TE'> T%en no one )ould say t%at %is son s%owed any want o5 )a&a)ity< (N:T1'> Aery li6ely not, 'O2/(TE'> But did any one, old or youn3, e8er say in your %earin3 t%at

2leo&%antus, son o5 T%emisto)les, was a wise or 3ood man, as %is 5at%er was< (N:T1'> . %a8e )ertainly ne8er %eard any one say so, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 8irtue )ould %a8e been tau3%t, would %is 5at%er T%emisto)les %a8e sou3%t to train %im in t%ese minor a))om&lis%ments, and allowed %im w%o, as you must remember, was %is own son, to be no better t%an %is nei3%bours in t%ose 4ualities in w%i)% %e %imsel5 ex)elled< (N:T1'> .ndeed, indeed, . t%in6 not, 'O2/(TE'> Bere was a tea)%er o5 8irtue w%om you admit to be amon3 t%e best men o5 t%e &ast, @et us ta6e anot%er,==(ristides, t%e son o5 @ysima)%us> would you not a)6nowled3e t%at %e was a 3ood man< (N:T1'> To be sure . s%ould, 'O2/(TE'> (nd did not %e train %is son @ysima)%us better t%an any ot%er (t%enian in all t%at )ould be done 5or %im by t%e %el& o5 masters< But w%at %as been t%e result< .s %e a bit better t%an any ot%er mortal< Be is an a)4uaintan)e o5 yours, and you see w%at %e is li6e, T%ere is Peri)les, a3ain, ma3ni5i)ent in %is wisdom? and %e, as you are aware, %ad two sons, Paralus and Jant%i&&us, (N:T1'> . 6now, 'O2/(TE'> (nd you 6now, also, t%at %e tau3%t t%em to be unri8alled %orsemen, and %ad t%em trained in musi) and 3ymnasti)s and all sorts o5 arts==in t%ese res&e)ts t%ey were on a le8el wit% t%e best==and %ad %e no wis% to ma6e 3ood men o5 t%em< Nay, %e must %a8e wis%ed it, But 8irtue, as . sus&e)t, )ould not be tau3%t, (nd t%at you may not su&&ose t%e in)om&etent tea)%ers to be only t%e meaner sort o5 (t%enians and 5ew in number, remember a3ain t%at T%u)ydides %ad two sons, Melesias and 'te&%anus, w%om, besides 3i8in3 t%em a 3ood edu)ation in ot%er t%in3s, %e trained in wrestlin3, and t%ey were t%e best wrestlers in (t%ens> one o5 t%em %e )ommitted to t%e )are o5 Jant%ias, and t%e ot%er o5 Eudorus, w%o %ad t%e re&utation o5 bein3 t%e most )elebrated wrestlers o5 t%at day, 0o you remember t%em<

(N:T1'> . %a8e %eard o5 t%em, 'O2/(TE'> Now, )an t%ere be a doubt t%at T%u)ydides, w%ose )%ildren were tau3%t t%in3s 5or w%i)% %e %ad to s&end money, would %a8e tau3%t t%em to be 3ood men, w%i)% would %a8e )ost %im not%in3, i5 8irtue )ould %a8e been tau3%t< ;ill you re&ly t%at %e was a mean man, and %ad not many 5riends amon3 t%e (t%enians and allies< Nay, but %e was o5 a 3reat 5amily, and a man o5 in5luen)e at (t%ens and in all Bellas, and, i5 8irtue )ould %a8e been tau3%t, %e would %a8e 5ound out some (t%enian or 5orei3ner w%o would %a8e made 3ood men o5 %is sons, i5 %e )ould not %imsel5 s&are t%e time 5rom )ares o5 state, On)e more, . sus&e)t, 5riend (nytus, t%at 8irtue is not a t%in3 w%i)% )an be tau3%t< (N:T1'> 'o)rates, . t%in6 t%at you are too ready to s&ea6 e8il o5 men> and, i5 you will ta6e my ad8i)e, . would re)ommend you to be )are5ul, Per%a&s t%ere is no )ity in w%i)% it is not easier to do men %arm t%an to do t%em 3ood, and t%is is )ertainly t%e )ase at (t%ens, as . belie8e t%at you 6now, 'O2/(TE'> O Meno, t%in6 t%at (nytus is in a ra3e, (nd %e may well be in a ra3e, 5or %e t%in6s, in t%e 5irst &la)e, t%at . am de5amin3 t%ese 3entlemen? and in t%e se)ond &la)e, %e is o5 o&inion t%at %e is one o5 t%em %imsel5, But some day %e will 6now w%at is t%e meanin3 o5 de5amation, and i5 %e e8er does, %e will 5or3i8e me, Meanw%ile . will return to you, Meno? 5or . su&&ose t%at t%ere are 3entlemen in your re3ion too< MENO> 2ertainly t%ere are, 'O2/(TE'> (nd are t%ey willin3 to tea)% t%e youn3< and do t%ey &ro5ess to be tea)%ers< and do t%ey a3ree t%at 8irtue is tau3%t< MENO> No indeed, 'o)rates, t%ey are anyt%in3 but a3reed? you may %ear t%em sayin3 at one time t%at 8irtue )an be tau3%t, and t%en a3ain t%e re8erse,

'O2/(TE'> 2an we )all t%ose tea)%ers w%o do not a)6nowled3e t%e &ossibility o5 t%eir own 8o)ation< MENO> . t%in6 not, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> (nd w%at do you t%in6 o5 t%ese 'o&%ists, w%o are t%e only &ro5essors< 0o t%ey seem to you to be tea)%ers o5 8irtue< MENO> . o5ten wonder, 'o)rates, t%at 9or3ias is ne8er %eard &romisin3 to tea)% 8irtue> and w%en %e %ears ot%ers &romisin3 %e only lau3%s at t%em? but %e t%in6s t%at men s%ould be tau3%t to s&ea6, 'O2/(TE'> T%en do you not t%in6 t%at t%e 'o&%ists are tea)%ers< MENO> . )annot tell you, 'o)rates? li6e t%e rest o5 t%e world, . am in doubt, and sometimes . t%in6 t%at t%ey are tea)%ers and sometimes not, 'O2/(TE'> (nd are you aware t%at not you only and ot%er &oliti)ians %a8e doubts w%et%er 8irtue )an be tau3%t or not, but t%at T%eo3nis t%e &oet says t%e 8ery same t%in3< MENO> ;%ere does %e say so< 'O2/(TE'> .n t%ese ele3ia) 8erses DT%eo3,E> 7Eat and drin6 and sit wit% t%e mi3%ty, and ma6e yoursel5 a3reeable to t%em? 5or 5rom t%e 3ood you will learn w%at is 3ood, but i5 you mix wit% t%e bad you will lose t%e intelli3en)e w%i)% you already %a8e,7 0o you obser8e t%at %ere %e seems to im&ly t%at 8irtue )an be tau3%t< MENO> 2learly, 'O2/(TE'> But in some ot%er 8erses %e s%i5ts about and says DT%eo3,E> 7.5 understandin3 )ould be )reated and &ut into a man, t%en t%ey7 Dw%o were able to &er5orm t%is 5eatE 7would %a8e obtained 3reat rewards,7

(nd a3ain>== 7Ne8er would a bad son %a8e s&run3 5rom a 3ood sire, 5or %e would %a8e %eard t%e 8oi)e o5 instru)tion? but not by tea)%in3 will you e8er ma6e a bad man into a 3ood one,7 (nd t%is, as you may remar6, is a )ontradi)tion o5 t%e ot%er, MENO> 2learly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd is t%ere anyt%in3 else o5 w%i)% t%e &ro5essors are a55irmed not only not to be tea)%ers o5 ot%ers, but to be i3norant t%emsel8es, and bad at t%e 6nowled3e o5 t%at w%i)% t%ey are &ro5essin3 to tea)%< or is t%ere anyt%in3 about w%i)% e8en t%e a)6nowled3ed 73entlemen7 are sometimes sayin3 t%at 7t%is t%in3 )an be tau3%t,7 and sometimes t%e o&&osite< 2an you say t%at t%ey are tea)%ers in any true sense w%ose ideas are in su)% )on5usion< MENO> . s%ould say, )ertainly not, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 neit%er t%e 'o&%ists nor t%e 3entlemen are tea)%ers, )learly t%ere )an be no ot%er tea)%ers< MENO> No, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 t%ere are no tea)%ers, neit%er are t%ere dis)i&les< MENO> (3reed, 'O2/(TE'> (nd we %a8e admitted t%at a t%in3 )annot be tau3%t o5 w%i)% t%ere are neit%er tea)%ers nor dis)i&les< MENO> ;e %a8e, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%ere are no tea)%ers o5 8irtue to be 5ound anyw%ere< MENO> T%ere are not,

'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 t%ere are no tea)%ers, neit%er are t%ere s)%olars< MENO> T%at, . t%in6, is true, 'O2/(TE'> T%en 8irtue )annot be tau3%t< MENO> Not i5 we are ri3%t in our 8iew, But . )annot belie8e, 'o)rates, t%at t%ere are no 3ood men> (nd i5 t%ere are, %ow did t%ey )ome into existen)e< 'O2/(TE'> . am a5raid, Meno, t%at you and . are not 3ood 5or mu)%, and t%at 9or3ias %as been as &oor an edu)ator o5 you as Prodi)us %as been o5 me, 2ertainly we s%all %a8e to loo6 to oursel8es, and try to 5ind some one w%o will %el& in some way or ot%er to im&ro8e us, T%is . say, be)ause . obser8e t%at in t%e &re8ious dis)ussion none o5 us remar6ed t%at ri3%t and 3ood a)tion is &ossible to man under ot%er 3uidan)e t%an t%at o5 6nowled3e De&istemeE?==and indeed i5 t%is be denied, t%ere is no seein3 %ow t%ere )an be any 3ood men at all, MENO> Bow do you mean, 'o)rates< 'O2/(TE'> . mean t%at 3ood men are ne)essarily use5ul or &ro5itable, ;ere we not ri3%t in admittin3 t%is< .t must be so, MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd in su&&osin3 t%at t%ey will be use5ul only i5 t%ey are true 3uides to us o5 a)tion==t%ere we were also ri3%t< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> But w%en we said t%at a man )annot be a 3ood 3uide unless %e %a8e 6nowled3e D&%r%onesisE, t%is we were wron3, MENO> ;%at do you mean by t%e word 7ri3%t7< 'O2/(TE'> . will ex&lain, .5 a man 6new t%e way to @arisa, or anyw%ere else, and went to t%e &la)e and led ot%ers t%it%er, would %e not be a ri3%t

and 3ood 3uide< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd a &erson w%o %ad a ri3%t o&inion about t%e way, but %ad ne8er been and did not 6now, mi3%t be a 3ood 3uide also, mi3%t %e not< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd w%ile %e %as true o&inion about t%at w%i)% t%e ot%er 6nows, %e will be just as 3ood a 3uide i5 %e t%in6s t%e trut%, as %e w%o 6nows t%e trut%< MENO> Exa)tly, 'O2/(TE'> T%en true o&inion is as 3ood a 3uide to )orre)t a)tion as 6nowled3e? and t%at was t%e &oint w%i)% we omitted in our s&e)ulation about t%e nature o5 8irtue, w%en we said t%at 6nowled3e only is t%e 3uide o5 ri3%t a)tion? w%ereas t%ere is also ri3%t o&inion, MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> T%en ri3%t o&inion is not less use5ul t%an 6nowled3e< MENO> T%e di55eren)e, 'o)rates, is only t%at %e w%o %as 6nowled3e will always be ri3%t? but %e w%o %as ri3%t o&inion will sometimes be ri3%t, and sometimes not, 'O2/(TE'> ;%at do you mean< 2an %e be wron3 w%o %as ri3%t o&inion, so lon3 as %e %as ri3%t o&inion< MENO> . admit t%e )o3en)y o5 your ar3ument, and t%ere5ore, 'o)rates, . wonder t%at 6nowled3e s%ould be &re5erred to ri3%t o&inion==or w%y t%ey s%ould e8er di55er, 'O2/(TE'> (nd s%all . ex&lain t%is wonder to you<

MENO> 0o tell me, 'O2/(TE'> :ou would not wonder i5 you %ad e8er obser8ed t%e ima3es o5 0aedalus D2om&are Eut%y&%roE? but &er%a&s you %a8e not 3ot t%em in your )ountry< MENO> ;%at %a8e t%ey to do wit% t%e 4uestion< 'O2/(TE'> Be)ause t%ey re4uire to be 5astened in order to 6ee& t%em, and i5 t%ey are not 5astened t%ey will &lay truant and run away, MENO> ;ell, w%at o5 t%at< 'O2/(TE'> . mean to say t%at t%ey are not 8ery 8aluable &ossessions i5 t%ey are at liberty, 5or t%ey will wal6 o55 li6e runaway sla8es? but w%en 5astened, t%ey are o5 3reat 8alue, 5or t%ey are really beauti5ul wor6s o5 art, Now t%is is an illustration o5 t%e nature o5 true o&inions> w%ile t%ey abide wit% us t%ey are beauti5ul and 5ruit5ul, but t%ey run away out o5 t%e %uman soul, and do not remain lon3, and t%ere5ore t%ey are not o5 mu)% 8alue until t%ey are 5astened by t%e tie o5 t%e )ause? and t%is 5astenin3 o5 t%em, 5riend Meno, is re)olle)tion, as you and . %a8e a3reed to )all it, But w%en t%ey are bound, in t%e 5irst &la)e, t%ey %a8e t%e nature o5 6nowled3e? and, in t%e se)ond &la)e, t%ey are abidin3, (nd t%is is w%y 6nowled3e is more %onourable and ex)ellent t%an true o&inion, be)ause 5astened by a )%ain, MENO> ;%at you are sayin3, 'o)rates, seems to be 8ery li6e t%e trut%, 'O2/(TE'> . too s&ea6 rat%er in i3noran)e? . only )onje)ture, (nd yet t%at 6nowled3e di55ers 5rom true o&inion is no matter o5 )onje)ture wit% me, T%ere are not many t%in3s w%i)% . &ro5ess to 6now, but t%is is most )ertainly one o5 t%em, MENO> :es, 'o)rates? and you are 4uite ri3%t in sayin3 so, 'O2/(TE'> (nd am . not also ri3%t in sayin3 t%at true o&inion leadin3 t%e way &er5e)ts a)tion 4uite as well as 6nowled3e< MENO> T%ere a3ain, 'o)rates, . t%in6 you are ri3%t,

'O2/(TE'> T%en ri3%t o&inion is not a w%it in5erior to 6nowled3e, or less use5ul in a)tion? nor is t%e man w%o %as ri3%t o&inion in5erior to %im w%o %as 6nowled3e< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> (nd surely t%e 3ood man %as been a)6nowled3ed by us to be use5ul< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> 'eein3 t%en t%at men be)ome 3ood and use5ul to states, not only be)ause t%ey %a8e 6nowled3e, but be)ause t%ey %a8e ri3%t o&inion, and t%at neit%er 6nowled3e nor ri3%t o&inion is 3i8en to man by nature or a)4uired by %im==Ddo you ima3ine eit%er o5 t%em to be 3i8en by nature< MENO> Not .,E 'O2/(TE'> T%en i5 t%ey are not 3i8en by nature, neit%er are t%e 3ood by nature 3ood< MENO> 2ertainly not, 'O2/(TE'> (nd nature bein3 ex)luded, t%en )ame t%e 4uestion w%et%er 8irtue is a)4uired by tea)%in3< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> .5 8irtue was wisdom Dor 6nowled3eE, t%en, as we t%ou3%t, it was tau3%t< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 it was tau3%t it was wisdom< MENO> 2ertainly,

'O2/(TE'> (nd i5 t%ere were tea)%ers, it mi3%t be tau3%t? and i5 t%ere were no tea)%ers, not< MENO> True, 'O2/(TE'> But surely we a)6nowled3ed t%at t%ere were no tea)%ers o5 8irtue< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> T%en we a)6nowled3ed t%at it was not tau3%t, and was not wisdom< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd yet we admitted t%at it was a 3ood< MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e ri3%t 3uide is use5ul and 3ood< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e only ri3%t 3uides are 6nowled3e and true o&inion== t%ese are t%e 3uides o5 man? 5or t%in3s w%i)% %a&&en by )%an)e are not under t%e 3uidan)e o5 man> but t%e 3uides o5 man are true o&inion and 6nowled3e, MENO> . t%in6 so too, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 8irtue is not tau3%t, neit%er is 8irtue 6nowled3e, MENO> 2learly not, 'O2/(TE'> T%en o5 two 3ood and use5ul t%in3s, one, w%i)% is 6nowled3e, %as been set aside, and )annot be su&&osed to be our 3uide in &oliti)al li5e, MENO> . t%in6 not,

'O2/(TE'> (nd t%ere5ore not by any wisdom, and not be)ause t%ey were wise, did T%emisto)les and t%ose ot%ers o5 w%om (nytus s&o6e 3o8ern states, T%is was t%e reason w%y t%ey were unable to ma6e ot%ers li6e t%emsel8es== be)ause t%eir 8irtue was not 3rounded on 6nowled3e, MENO> T%at is &robably true, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> But i5 not by 6nowled3e, t%e only alternati8e w%i)% remains is t%at statesmen must %a8e 3uided states by ri3%t o&inion, w%i)% is in &oliti)s w%at di8ination is in reli3ion? 5or di8iners and also &ro&%ets say many t%in3s truly, but t%ey 6now not w%at t%ey say, MENO> 'o . belie8e, 'O2/(TE'> (nd may we not, Meno, truly )all t%ose men 7di8ine7 w%o, %a8in3 no understandin3, yet su))eed in many a 3rand deed and word< MENO> 2ertainly, 'O2/(TE'> T%en we s%all also be ri3%t in )allin3 di8ine t%ose w%om we were just now s&ea6in3 o5 as di8iners and &ro&%ets, in)ludin3 t%e w%ole tribe o5 &oets, :es, and statesmen abo8e all may be said to be di8ine and illumined, bein3 ins&ired and &ossessed o5 9od, in w%i)% )ondition t%ey say many 3rand t%in3s, not 6nowin3 w%at t%ey say, MENO> :es, 'O2/(TE'> (nd t%e women too, Meno, )all 3ood men di8ine==do t%ey not< and t%e '&artans, w%en t%ey &raise a 3ood man, say 7t%at %e is a di8ine man,7 MENO> (nd . t%in6, 'o)rates, t%at t%ey are ri3%t? alt%ou3% 8ery li6ely our 5riend (nytus may ta6e o55en)e at t%e word,

'O2/(TE'> . do not )are? as 5or (nytus, t%ere will be anot%er o&&ortunity o5 tal6in3 wit% %im, To sum u& our en4uiry==t%e result seems to be, i5 we are at all ri3%t in our 8iew, t%at 8irtue is neit%er natural nor a)4uired, but an instin)t 3i8en by 9od to t%e 8irtuous, Nor is t%e instin)t a))om&anied by reason, unless t%ere may be su&&osed to be amon3 statesmen some one w%o is )a&able o5 edu)atin3 statesmen, (nd i5 t%ere be su)% an one, %e may be said to be amon3 t%e li8in3 w%at Bomer says t%at Tiresias was amon3 t%e dead, 7%e alone %as understandin3? but t%e rest are 5littin3 s%ades7? and %e and %is 8irtue in li6e manner will be a reality amon3 s%adows, MENO> T%at is ex)ellent, 'o)rates, 'O2/(TE'> T%en, Meno, t%e )on)lusion is t%at 8irtue )omes to t%e 8irtuous by t%e 3i5t o5 9od, But we s%all ne8er 6now t%e )ertain trut% until, be5ore as6in3 %ow 8irtue is 3i8en, we en4uire into t%e a)tual nature o5 8irtue, . 5ear t%at . must 3o away, but do you, now t%at you are &ersuaded yoursel5, &ersuade our 5riend (nytus, (nd do not let %im be so exas&erated? i5 you )an )on)iliate %im, you will %a8e done 3ood ser8i)e to t%e (t%enian &eo&le,

End o5 t%is Proje)t 9utenber3 Etext o5 Meno, by Plato

MENO ..

( 2ONT.N1(T.ON OF 'O2/(TE'7 0.(@O91E ;.TB MENO .N ;B.2B TBE BO: P/OAE' /OOT G .' .//(T.ON(@

( Millennium Ful)rum Edition [2o&yri3%t 199H$

'o)rates> ;ell, %ere we are at t%e a&&ointed time, Meno, Meno> :es, and it loo6s li6e a 5ine day 5or it, too, 'o)rates> (nd . see our ser8in3 boy is also %ere, Boy> :es, . am, and ready to do your biddin3, 'o)rates> ;onder5ul, Now, Meno, . want you to be on your 3uard, as you were t%e ot%er day, to insure t%at . tea)% not%in3 to t%e boy, but rat%er &ull out o5 %is mind t%e &remises w%i)% are already t%ere, Meno> . s%all do my best, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> . )an as6 more o5 no man, Meno, and . am )ertain t%at you will do well, and . %o&e . will 3i8e you no )all to %alt me in my sayin3 i5 . s%ould say too mu)%, in w%i)% you would 5eel . was a)tually tea)%in3 t%e boy t%e answer to t%is riddle, Meno> No, 'o)rates, . don7t t%in6 . will %a8e to )all you on anyt%in3 you mi3%t say today, 5or t%e most wondrously learned men o5 t%e 3rou& o5 Pyt%a3oras %a8e s&ent many %ours, wee6s, and e8en mont%s and years toilin3 in t%eir manner to arri8e at t%e mysti) solutions to t%e &uCCles 5ormed by t%e sim&le s4uares wit% w%i)% we wor6ed t%e ot%er day, T%ere5ore, . am )ertain to re3ain my 8irtue, w%i)% . lost t%e ot%er day, w%en . was so stead5astly &ro8en by you to be in error in my statement t%at t%e root o5 a s4uare wit% an area o5 two s4uare 5eet was beyond t%is boy, w%o is a 5ine boy, w%om we must ma6e to understand t%at %e s%ould do %is best %ere, and not 5eel t%at %e %as done any wron3ness by )ausin3 me to lose my 8irtue to you t%e ot%er day, 'o)rates> Meno, my 5riend, it is my o&inion, and . %o&e it will soon be yours, t%at your 8irtue was in)reased t%e ot%er day, rat%er t%an de)reased,

Meno> . 5ail to see %ow, w%en . was %umiliated by seein3 t%is youn3 boy, o5 modest edu)ation, arri8e in minutes at t%e %i3%est mysti) le8els o5 t%e ma3i) o5 t%e Pyt%a3oreans, Most o5 all w%en . wa3ered as many dinners as you )ould eat at my %ouse t%at t%is )ould not be t%e )ase, 'o)rates> First, 5riend Meno, let me assure you t%at . will &romise ne8er to eat you out o5 %ouse and %ome, not t%at . )ould i5 . tried, 5or my tastes are sim&le and your wallet is lar3e, Ne8ert%eless, Meno, my 5riend, . would %asten to add t%at . will &romise, i5 you li6e, not to e8er )ome to your table unin8ited, (s a se)ond reason you and your 8irtue s%ould 5eel better a5ter t%e e8ents o5 t%e ot%er day, be)ause you were in error be5ore, but are less in error now, (nd t%e &at% to 8irtue, at least one as&e)t o5 t%e &at% to 8irtue, is in 5indin3 and )orre)tin3 error, Meno> 'o)rates, you 6now you are always wel)ome at my table, ex)e&t w%en . am su55erin3 5rom my ul)er, w%i)% you a33ra8ate 3reatly, or at times w%en . am entertainin3 t%e %i3%est nobles o5 t%e land, and you would a&&ear out o5 &la)e in your )lot%in3, D'o)rates was 6nown 5or %is sim&le attire, and 5or wearin3 %is 3arments o8er and o8er till t%ey wore out, Bowe8er, t%e only sur8i8in3 exam&le o5 %is writin3 is a laundry list, so we 6now %e 6e&t %is )lot%es )lean and somew%at &resentable, t%ou3% sim&leE 'o)rates> . would %o&e you would %a8e me o8er be)ause . was a 3ood in5luen)e on your de8elo&ment, t%an 5or any ot%er reason, . noti)e you did not res&ond to my )laim to %a8e in)reased your 8irtue, t%rou3% t%e exor)ism o5 your error, Meno> ;ell 'o)rates, you 6now t%at it is not always t%e easiest t%in3 to 3i8e u& one7s ways, e8en t%ou3% one %as 5ound t%em to be in error, T%ere5ore, &lease 5or3i8e me i5 . am not soundin3 as 3rate5ul as you would li6e 5or your lessons, 'o)rates> T%e easier one 5inds it to 3i8e u& t%e ways o5 error, t%e easier it is to re&la)e t%e error wit% t%at w%i)% we %o&e is not in error, .s t%is not t%e way to 8irtue<

Meno> :es, 'o)rates, and you 6now t%e &at% is %ard, and t%at we o5ten stumble and 5all, 'o)rates> :es, but is it not true t%at we stumble and 5all o8er t%e obsta)les w%i)% we ma6e 5or oursel8es to tri& o8er< Meno> 2ertainly t%at is most true, 'o)rates, in some )ases, 'o)rates> ;ell, t%en, let us &ro)eed, 5or . see t%e %our is u&on us w%en . do my best t%in6in3, and t%at %our s%all be &assed soon, and %o&e5ully wit% it s%all &ass a bit o5 your i3noran)e, Meno> ;ell said, 'o)rates, . am wit% you, 'o)rates> (nd s%all %a8e we a wa3er on t%e e8ents o5 today< Meno> 2ertainly, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> (nd w%at s%all you wa3er a3ainst t%is boy &ro8in3 t%at t%e len3t% o5 t%e root o5 a s4uare wit% an area o5 two s4uare 5eet, )annot be made by t%e ratio o5 two w%ole numbers< Meno> :ou may %a8e anyt%in3 it is in my &ower to 3i8e, unless it )ause %arm to mysel5 or to anot%er to 3i8e it, 'o)rates> ;ell said, my 5riend Meno, and . s%all lea8e it at t%at, (nd w%at s%all . o55er you as a return wa3er< Meno> ;ell, t%e easiest t%in3 w%i)% )omes to mind is to wa3er all t%ose dinners you won 5rom me t%e ot%er day, 'o)rates> Aery well, so be it, Meno> Now 'o)rates, sin)e you are my 5riend, . must 3i8e you t%is 5riendly warnin3> you 6now t%at t%e Pyt%a3oreans jealously 3uard t%eir se)rets wit% se)ret meetin3s, &rote)ted by se)ret %ands%a6es, se)ret si3ns, &asswords, and all t%at, do you not< 'o)rates> . %a8e %eard as mu)%, 5riend Meno,

Meno> T%en be sure t%at t%ey will see6 re8en3e u&on you 5or demysti5yin3 t%e ideas and )on)e&ts w%i)% t%ey wor6ed so lon3 and %ard and se)retly to )reate and &rote)t? 5or t%ey are a jealous lot in t%e extreme, %idin3 in mountain )a8es, w%i)% are %ardly 5it to be )alled monasteries by e8en t%e most %ardened mon6, 'o)rates> . ta6e your meanin3, 5riend Meno, and t%an6 you 5or your )onsideration, but . t%in6 t%at i5 . lose, t%at t%ey will not bot%er me, and i5 . win, it will a&&ear so sim&le to e8eryone, t%at i5 would be s%eerest 5olly 5or anyone to ma6e e8en t%e smallest 3esture to &rote)t its 5allen mysti) se)re)y, Besides, . %a8e a )itiCen7s res&onsibility to (t%ens and to all (t%enians to do my best to &rote)t t%em and enli3%ten t%em, Meno> Aery well, 'o)rates, Please do not e8er say t%at . did not try to warn you, es&e)ially a5ter t%ey %a8e nailed you to a )ross in a &ubli) &la)e, w%ere anyone and e8eryone )ould %ear you say t%at t%e 5ault o5 t%is lay in my name, 'o)rates> 0o not worry, 5riend Meno, 5or i5 . were not to s%ow t%is sim&le 5eat o5 lo3i) to you, . s%ould just wal6 down t%e street and 5ind someone else, t%ou3% not someone w%ose )om&any and )on8ersation . s%ould enjoy as mu)% as yours, Meno> T%an6 you, 5riend 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Now, boy, do you remember me, and t%e s4uares wit% w%i)% we wor6ed and &layed t%e ot%er day< Boy> :es, sir, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Please, Meno, instru)t t%e boy to merely )all me by my name, as does e8eryone else, 2allin3 me OsirO merely &uts me o55 my mental stride, and, besides, it will )reate a 3reater distan)e between me and t%e boy, Meno> :ou %eard w%at 'o)rates, said, boy, 2an you do it< Boy> :es, sir, DTurnin3 to 'o)ratesE :ou 6now . li6e you 8ery mu)%, and t%at . )all you OsirO not only out o5 relation o5

our &ositions in so)iety, but also be)ause o5 my true res&e)t and admiration, es&e)ially a5ter t%e e8ents o5 t%e ot%er day, 'o)rates> :es, boy, (nd . will try to li8e u& to your ex&e)tations, DTurnin3 to MenoE ;ould you allow some reward 5or t%e boy, as well as t%at w%i)% is 5or mysel5, i5 %e s%ould &ro8e to your satis5a)tion t%at t%e s4uare root o5 two is irrational< Meno> 2ertainly, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Dta6in3 t%e boy asideE ;%at would you li6e t%e most in t%e w%ole world, boy< Boy> :ou mean anyt%in3< 'o)rates> ;ell, . )an7t 3uarantee to 3et it 5or you, but at least . )an as6 it, and it s%ouldn7t %urt to as6? and besides, as you s%ould 6now, it is 8ery %ard to ex&e)t someone to 3i8e you w%at you want, i5 you ne8er let t%em 6now you want it, Boy> ;ell, 'o)rates , , , you 6now w%at . would want, 'o)rates> 0o .< Boy> Better t%an . 6new t%e s4uare root o5 two t%e ot%er day, 'o)rates> :ou want to be a 5ree man, t%en, and a )itiCen, Boy> Dloo6in3 downE :es, 'o)rates> 0on7t loo6 down, t%en, 5or t%at is an admirable desire 5or one to %a8e, and s&ea6s %i3%ly o5 %im w%o %as it, . will s&ea6 to Meno, w%ile you %old your ton3ue, Boy> :es, 'o)rates, Dbows to 6iss %is %and, 'o)rates turnsE 'o)rates> Friend Meno, %ow %ard do you t%in6 it will be 5or t%is boy to &ro8e t%e irrationality o5 t%e s4uare root o5 two< Meno> :ou 6now t%at . t%in6 it is im&ossible, 'o)rates,

'o)rates> ;ell, %ow lon3 did it ta6e t%e Pyt%a3oreans< Meno> . s%ould t%in6 it too6 t%em years, 'o)rates> (nd %ow many o5 t%em were t%ere< Meno> Muite a 5ew, t%ou3% not all wor6ed e4ually, and some %ardly at all, 5or t%ey were most interested in trian3les o5 t%e ri3%t and 8irtuous 8ariety, and not in s4uares and t%eir roots, 'o)rates> 2an you 3i8e me an estimate< Meno> No, . )an7t say t%at . )an, . am sorry, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> No &roblem, would you a))e&t 5i8e t%in6ers as an estimate, Meno> . t%in6 t%at s%ould be 5air, 'o)rates> (nd s%all we assume t%ey wor6ed 5or two years, t%at is t%e smallest number w%i)% retains t%e &lural, and our assum&tion was t%at t%ey wor6ed 5or years, Meno> Two years is indeed a))e&table to me, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Aery well t%en, Meno, it would a&&ear t%at t%e Pyt%a3oreans s&ent 1K total years o5 t%in6in3 time to sol8e t%e riddles o5 t%e s4uare root o5 two, Meno> . a3ree, 'o)rates> (nd would you li6e to %ire t%e Pyt%a3oreans to run your %ouse%old, Meno< Meno> 'urely . would, 'o)rates, i5 t%ey were only 5or %ire, but, as you well 6now, t%ey are a se)ret lot, and %ire to no one, 'o)rates> ;ell, i5 . )ould 3et you one, &er%a&s one o5 t%e best o5 t%em, in 5a)t t%e leader o5 t%e 3rou& t%at sol8ed t%e s4uare root o5 two, would you not %ire %im, and at %i3% wa3es<

Meno> 2ertainly, 'o)rates, .7d be a 5ool not to, 'o)rates> (nd you would &ut %im in )%ar3e o5 your %ouse, Meno> (nd all my lands, too, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Possibly, T%en . would li6e to &ro&ose, t%at i5 t%is boy s%ould sol8e t%e &roo5 o5 t%e s4uare root o5 two bein3 irrational, in t%e next 5ew %ours o5 our dis)ussion, t%at %e be 3i8en wa3es e4ual to t%ose due to your most %i3%ly &la)ed ser8ant 5or ten years o5 ser8i)e, as %e s%all &er5orm ten years ser8i)e 5or you in t%e next 5ew %ours, s%ould %e su))eed, Meno> T%at sounds 4uite 5air, 'o)rates, . li6e your lo3i), 'o)rates> Dt%e boy tu3s %is tuni), to )om&lain t%at %e wants %is 5reedom, not a mere bu)6et o5 3oldE Bus%, boy, did you not &romise to %old your ton3ue< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, but , , , , 'o)rates> Dturnin3 to MenoE (nd, o5 )ourse, wit% t%e monetary rewards 5or su)% a &osition, 3o all t%e rest o5 it, Meno> O5 )ourse, 'o)rates, . ne8er t%ou3%t to )%eat you, 'o)rates> . 6now t%at, 5riend Meno, but . merely as6 5or t%e boy7s sa6e, w%o is not used to %earin3 about %i3% 5inan)e and t%e &owers and ran6 w%i)% a))om&any su)% t%in3s, Meno> O5 )ourse, 'o)rates, '%all . tell t%e boy w%at %e s%all re)ei8e< 'o)rates> :ou are 8ery 6ind to do so, my 5riend Meno, Meno> Dturns to t%e boyE :ou are aware t%at a ser8ant may not own t%e amount o5 3old . would %a8e to 3i8e you, s%ould you win t%e day<

Boy> :es, sir, Meno> T%ere5ore, . would %a8e to 3i8e to you t%e 5reedom to own t%e money, be5ore . )ould 3i8e you t%e money, would . not< Boy> :es, sir, Meno> (nd in 3i8in3 you 5reedom, . would be remiss i5 . did not 3i8e you a job and a )omin3 out &arty o5 e4ual &osition wit% your wealt%, would . not< Boy> . )an7t really say, sir, t%ou3% . su&&ose so, Meno> :ou su&&ose )orre)tly, . will 5eed you 5or a wee6 o5 &artyin3, and dress you in t%e 5inest 3arments, w%ile you are introdu)ed to t%e 5inest ladies and 3entlemen o5 (t%ens, 5rom w%om you are 5ree to sele)t 5or your interests as 5riends, business &artners, so)ial a)4uaintan)es, )onne)tions, and &er%a&s e8en a wi5e, s%ould you 5ind someone you li6e 5or t%at, 0o you now understand t%at t%ere is not%in3 . would lea8e out t%at you would %a8e to as6 5or, or t%at i5 you did %a8e to as6, . would 3i8e it immediately, and as6 your 5or3i8eness 5or my error< Boy> .t is %ard to understand, but . ta6e your word, 'o)rates> Now don7t let t%is all 3o to your %ead, boy, T%is is somet%in3 you )ould %a8e 5i3ured out 5or yoursel5, i5 you %ad a&&lied your mind to it as you did to s4uares t%e ot%er day, 2an you do as well, today< Boy> . s%ould t%in6 and %o&e so, 5riend 'o)rates, 5or . see you are indeed my 5riend, and . s%ould %o&e . am more )a&able today, 5or %a8in3 learned some t%e ot%er day, 'o)rates> ;e s%all see, boy, @et us on to t%e test, Now you remember t%e s4uares we dealt wit% t%e ot%er day, Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> (nd t%e one &arti)ular s4uare on t%e dia3onal we made,

w%ose area was two, do you remember t%at one< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> (nd you remember t%at t%e len3t% o5 t%e side o5 a s4uare, w%en multi&lied by itsel5, yields t%e area o5 t%e s4uare, Boy> E8eryone at s)%ool 6nows t%at, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> ;ell, maybe, Bowe8er, it is about t%at side, w%i)% w%en multi&lied time itsel5 yields an area o5 two, t%at . would li6e to s&ea6 5urt%er today, Bow is t%at wit% you< Boy> T%at is 5ine, 'o)rates, . remember t%at line, and . sort o5 li6ed it t%e best, i5 you 6now w%at . mean, 'o)rates> 9ood, t%en we s%ould %a8e a 3reat time, 0o you 6now %ow lon3 t%at line is, boy< Boy> ;ell, . 6now t%at you bot% t%ou3%t it wise w%en . said it was o5 a len3t% w%i)% w%en made a s4uare o5, yielded a s4uare wit% an area o5 two, so . su&&ose . s%ould answer t%at way, 'o)rates> (nd a 3ood answer it is, too, ;e are 3oin3 to ma6e it an e8en better answer as we &ro)eed, Boy> 9ood, 'o)rates> 0o you remember w%en you tri&&ed u& and 5ell on your 5a)e t%e ot%er day, w%en you t%ou3%t t%at t%e s4uare o5 area nine was a)tually a s4uare o5 area ei3%t< Boy> O% yes, 'o)ratesL (nd . am sorely as%amed, be)ause . still do not 6now enou3% to ma6e sure . ne8er ma6e su)% an error a3ain, and t%ere5ore . 6now my 8irtue and ri3%tness are la)6in3, 'o)rates> T%ey are not la)6in3 so mu)% t%at t%ey )annot be im&ro8ed, are t%ey boy< Boy> . s%ould %o&e and &ray not,

'o)rates> ;ell today, you are 3oin3 to tell us some t%in3s about t%at number, w%i)% w%en multi&lied by itsel5 3i8es us two, Boy> . will tell you e8eryt%in3 . 6now, or t%in6 . 6now, 'o)rates, and %o&e t%at . am )orre)t or )an be )orre)ted, 'o)rates> To Meno, surely %e is a 5ine boy, e% Meno< Meno> :es, . am &roud to own %im, but . don7t see %ow %e )an be smart enou3% to do t%e wor6 today t%at would ta6e a Pyt%a3orean mon6 ten years o5 )loistered li5e to a))om&lis%, 'o)rates> ;e s%all see, Boy, you are doin3 5ine, . t%in6 . )ould e8en ma6e a s)%olar o5 you, t%ou3% . 5ear you mi3%t turn to wine and women wit% your new 5ound wealt%, i5 you su))eed, rat%er t%an )ontinue to &olis% t%e wit w%i)% s%ould 3et you t%at reward, Boy> . don7t t%in6 . would want to s&end t%at mu)% time wit% women or wit% wine, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> :ou will 5ind somet%in3, no doubt, 'o, ba)6 to t%e number w%i)% w%en s4uare 3i8es us two, ;%at )an we say about su)% a number< .s it odd or e8en< ;ell it would %a8e to be a w%ole number to be one o5 t%ose, would it not, and we saw t%e ot%er day w%at %a&&ens to w%ole numbers w%en t%ey are s4uared< T%ey 3i8e us 1,",9 and 1! as s4uare areas, did t%ey not< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, t%ou3% . remember t%in6in3 t%at t%ere s%ould %a8e been a number w%i)% would 3i8e ei3%t, 'o)rates< 'o)rates> . t%in6 we s%all 5ind one, i5 we 6ee& sear)%in3, Now, t%is number, do you remember i5 it %ad to be lar3er or smaller t%an one< Boy> @ar3er, 'o)rates, For one s4uared 3i8es only an area o5 one, and we need and area o5 two, w%i)% is lar3er, 'o)rates> 9ood, (nd w%at o5 two<

Boy> Two 3i8es a s4uare o5 5our, w%i)% is too lar3e, 'o)rates> Fine, 'o t%e s4uare root o5 two is smaller t%an t%e side two w%i)% is t%e root o5 5our, and lar3er t%an t%e side one w%i)% yields one< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> DTurnin3 to MenoE 'o now %e is as 5ar as most o5 us 3et in determinin3 t%e ma3nitude o5 t%e s4uare root o5 two< (nd 3ettin3 5art%er is lar3ely a matter o5 3uesswor6, is it not< Meno> :es, 'o)rates, but . don7t see %ow %e will do it, 'o)rates> Neit%er does %e, But . do, ;at)%L Dturnin3 to t%e boyE Now . am 3oin3 to tell you somet%in3 you don7t 6now, so Meno will listen 8ery )losely to ma6e sure %e a3rees t%at . )an tell you, :ou 6now multi&li)ation, boy< Boy> . t%ou3%t . %ad demonstrated t%at, 'o)rates< 'o)rates> 'o you %a8e, my boy, %as %e not Meno< Meno> :es, 'o)rates, . re)all %e did t%e ot%er day, 'o)rates> (nd you 6now t%e way to undo multi&li)ation< Boy> .t is )alled di8ision, but . do not 6now it as well as multi&li)ation, sin)e we %a8e not studied it as lon3, 'o)rates> ;ell, . will not as6 you to do mu)% di8ision, but rat%er . will as6 you only w%et%er )ertain answers may be )alled odd or e8en, and t%e li6e, 0oes t%at suit you< Boy> .t suits me well, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> T%en you 6now w%at odd and e8en are, boy< Boy> :es, s%all . tell you<

'o)rates> Please do, . would lo8e to %ear w%at t%ey tea)%, Boy> Dt%e boy re)itesE ( number )an only be odd or e8en i5 it is a w%ole number, t%at is %as no &arts but only w%oles o5 w%at it measures, E8en numbers are s&e)ial in t%at t%ey %a8e only w%ole twos in t%em, wit% no ones le5t o8er, w%ile odd numbers always %a8e a one le5t o8er w%en all t%e twos are ta6en out, 'o)rates> (n interestin3, and somew%at e55e)ti8e de5inition, 0o you a3ree, Meno, Meno> :es, 'o)rates, Please )ontinue, 'o)rates> Now boy, w%at do you 3et w%en you di8ide t%ese odd and e8en numbers by ot%er odd and e8en numbers, Boy> 'ometimes you 3et w%ole numbers, es&e)ially w%en you di8ide an e8en number by an e8en number, but odd numbers sometimes 3i8e w%ole numbers, bot% odd and e8en, and sometimes t%ey 3i8e numbers w%i)% are not w%ole numbers, but %a8e &arts, 'o)rates> Aery 3ood, and %a8e your tea)%ers e8er )alled t%ese numbers ratios< Boy> 'ometimes, 'o)rates, but usually only wit% sim&le numbers w%i)% ma6e one=%al5, one=t%ird, two=t%irds and t%e li6e, 'o)rates> :es, t%at is usually w%at &eo&le mean by ratios, T%e learned &eo&le )all numbers made 5rom t%e ratios, rational, 0oes t%e name rational number suit you to )all a number w%i)% )an be ex&ressed as t%e ratio o5 two w%ole numbers, w%et%er t%ey be odd or e8en w%ole numbers< Boy> :ou want me to )all t%e numbers made 5rom ratios o5 w%ole numbers somet%in3 )alled rational< ( ratio ma6es a rational number< 'o)rates> :es boy, )an you do t%at< Boy> 2ertainly, 'o)rates,

'o)rates> 0o you a3ree wit% t%e way . told %im t%is, Meno< 0oes it 8iolate our a3reement< Meno> :ou added =nal to t%e word ratio, just as we add =nal to t%e Fren)% word OjourO to )reate t%e word journal w%i)% means somet%in3 t%at )ontains words o5 t%e OjourO or o5 today, 'o we now %a8e a word w%i)% means a number made 5rom a ratio, T%is is more t%an a))e&table to me, 'o)rates, ( sort o5 lesson in lin3uisti)s, &er%a&s, but )ertainly not in mat%emati)s, No, . do not see t%at you %a8e told %im %ow to sol8e anyt%in3 about t%e s4uare root o5 two, but t%an6 you 5or as6in3, . 3i8e you your journalisti) li)ense to do so, 'o)rates> 9ood, Now boy, . need your attention, Please 3et u& and stret)%, i5 it will %el& you stay and t%in6 5or aw%ile, Boy> Dstret)%es only a littleE . am 5ine, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Now t%in6 )are5ully, boy, w%at 6ind o5 ratios )an we ma6e 5rom e8en numbers and odd numbers< Boy> ;e )ould ma6e e8en numbers di8ided by odd numbers, and odd numbers di8ided by e8en numbers, 'o)rates> :es, we )ould, 2ould we ma6e any ot%er 6ind< Boy> ;ell , , , we )ould ma6e e8en numbers di8ided by e8en numbers, or odd numbers di8ided by odd, 'o)rates> Aery 3ood, (ny ot%er 6ind< Boy> .7m not sure, . )an7t t%in6 o5 any, but . mi3%t %a8e to t%in6 a w%ile to be sure, 'o)rates> Dto MenoE (re you still satis5ied, Meno> :es, 'o)rates, Be 6nows e8en and odd numbers, and ratios? as do all t%e s)%ool )%ildren %is a3e,

'o)rates> Aery well, boy, :ou %a8e named 5our 6inds o5 ratios> E8en o8er odd, odd o8er e8en, e8en o8er e8en, odd o8er odd, and all t%e ratios ma6e numbers we )all rational numbers, Boy> T%at7s w%at it loo6s li6e, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Meno, %a8e you anyt%in3 to )ontribute %ere< Meno> No, 'o)rates, . am 5ine, 'o)rates> Aery well, Now, boy, we are o55 in sear)% o5 more about t%e s4uare root o5 two, ;e %a8e di8ided t%e rational numbers into 5our 3rou&s, oddPe8en, e8enPodd, e8enPe8en, oddPodd< Boy> :es, 'o)rates> (nd i5 we 5ind anot%er 3rou& we )an in)lude t%em, Now, we want to 5ind w%i)% one o5 t%ese 3rou&s, i5 any, )ontains t%e number you 5ound t%e ot%er day, t%e one w%i)% s4uared is two, ;ould t%at be 5un to try< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, and also edu)ational, 'o)rates> . t%in6 we )an narrow t%ese 5our 3rou&s down to t%ree, and t%us ma6e t%e sear)% easier, ;ould you li6e t%at< Boy> 2ertainly, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> @et7s ta6e e8en o8er e8en ratios, ;%at are t%ey< Boy> ;e 6now t%at bot% &arts o5 t%e ratio %a8e two in t%em, 'o)rates> Ex)ellent, 'ee, Meno, %ow well %e %as learned %is lessons in s)%ool, Bis tea)%er must be &roud, 5or . %a8e tau3%t %im not%in3 o5 t%is, %a8e .< Meno> No, . %a8e not seen you tea)% it to %im, t%ere5ore %e must %a8e been ex&osed to it elsew%ere,

'o)rates> Dba)6 to t%e boyE (nd w%at %a8e you learned about ratios o5 e8en numbers, boy< Boy> T%at bot% &arts )an be di8ided by two, to 3et t%e twos out, o8er and o8er, until one &art be)omes odd, 'o)rates> Aery 3ood, 0o all s)%ool )%ildren 6now t%at, Meno< Meno> (ll t%e ones w%o stay awa6e in )lass, D%e stret)%esE 'o)rates> 'o, boy, we )an )%an3e t%e &arts o5 t%e ratios, wit%out )%an3in3 t%e real meanin3 o5 t%e ratio itsel5< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, . will demonstrate, as we do in )lass, 'u&&ose . use 1! and Q, as we did t%e ot%er day, .5 . ma6e a ratio o5 1! di8ided by Q, . )an di8ide bot% t%e 1! and t%e Q by two and 3et Q di8ided by ", ;e )an see t%at Q di8ided by " is t%e same as 1! di8ided by Q, ea)% one is twi)e t%e ot%er, as it s%ould be, ;e )an t%en di8ide by two a3ain and 3et " o8er G, and a3ain to 3et G o8er 1, ;e )an7t do it a3ain, so we say t%at t%is 5ra)tion %as been redu)ed as 5ar as it will 3o, and e8eryt%in3 t%at is true o5 t%e ot%er ways o5 ex&ressin3 it is true o5 t%is, 'o)rates> :our demonstration is e55e)ti8e, 2an you di8ide by ot%er numbers t%an two< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, ;e )an di8ide by any number w%i)% 3oes as w%oles into t%e &arts w%i)% ma6e u& t%e ratio, ;e )ould %a8e started by di8idin3 by Q be5ore, but . di8ided by t%ree times, ea)% time by two, to s%ow you t%e &ro)ess, t%ou3% now . 5eel as%amed be)ause . realiCe you are bot% masters o5 t%is, and t%at . s&o6e to you in too sim&le a manner, 'o)rates> Better to s&ea6 too sim&ly, t%an in a manner in w%i)% &art or all o5 your audien)e 3ets lost, li6e t%e 'o&%ists, Boy> . a3ree, but &lease sto& me i5 . 3et too sim&le, 'o)rates> . am sure we )an sur8i8e a sim&le ex&lanation, Dnud3es Meno, w%o %as been 3aCin3 elsew%ereE But ba)6 to your

sim&le &roo5> we 6now t%at a ratio o5 two e8en numbers )an be di8ided until redu)ed until one or bot% its &arts are odd< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, T%en it is a &ro&er ratio, 'o)rates> 'o we )an eliminate one o5 our 5our 3rou&s, t%e one w%ere e8en was di8ided by e8en, and now we %a8e oddPodd, oddPe8en and e8enPodd< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> @et7s try odd o8er e8en next, s%all we< Boy> Fine, 'o)rates> ;%at %a&&ens w%en you multi&ly an e8en number by an e8en number, w%at 6ind o5 number do you 3et, e8en or odd< Boy> E8en, o5 )ourse, (n e8en multi&le o5 any w%ole number 3i8es anot%er e8en number, 'o)rates> ;onder5ul, you %a8e answered two 4uestions, but we need only one at t%e moment, ;e s%all sa8e t%e ot%er, 'o, wit% odd o8er e8en, i5 we multi&ly any o5 t%ese times t%emsel8es, we well 3et odd times odd o8er e8en times e8en, and t%ere5ore odd o8er e8en, sin)e odd times odd is odd and e8en o5 e8en is e8en, Boy> :es, ( ratio o5 odd o8er e8en, w%en multi&lied times itsel5, yields odd o8er e8en, 'o)rates> (nd )an our s4uare root o5 two be in t%at 3rou&< Boy> . don7t 6now, 'o)rates, Ba8e . 5ailed< 'o)rates> O%, you 6now, you just don7t 6now t%at you 6now, Try t%is> a5ter we multi&ly our number times itsel5, w%i)% t%e learned )all Os4uarin3O t%e number w%i)% is t%e root, we need to 3et a ratio in w%i)% t%e 5irst or to& number is twi)e as lar3e as t%e se)ond or bottom number, .s t%is mu)% )orre)t<

Boy> ( ratio w%i)% w%en Os4uaredO as you )alled it, yields an area o5 two, must t%en yield one &art w%i)% is two times t%e ot%er &art, T%at is t%e de5inition o5 a ratio o5 two to one, 'o)rates> 'o you a3ree t%at t%is is )orre)t< Boy> 2ertainly, 'o)rates> Now i5 a number is to be twi)e as 3reat as anot%er, it must be two times t%at number< Boy> 2ertainly, 'o)rates> (nd i5 a number is two times any w%ole number, it must t%en be an e8en number, must it not< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> 'o, in our ratio we want to s4uare to 3et two, t%e to& number )annot be odd, )an it< Boy> No, 'o)rates, T%ere5ore, t%e 3rou& o5 odd o8er e8en rational numbers )annot %a8e t%e s4uare root o5 two in itL Nor )an t%e 3rou& ratios o5 odd numbers o8er odd numbers, 'o)rates> ;onder5ul, ;e %a8e just eliminated t%ree o5 t%e 5our 3rou&s o5 rational numbers, 5irst we eliminated t%e 3rou& o5 e8en o8er e8en numbers, t%en t%e ones wit% odd numbers di8ided by ot%er numbers, Bowe8er, t%ese were t%e easier &art, and we are now most o5 t%e way u& t%e mountain, so we must rest and &re&are to try e8en %arder to )on4uer t%e rest, w%ere t%e altitude is %i3%est, and t%e terrain is ro)6iest, 'o let us sit and rest a minute, and loo6 o8er w%at we %a8e done, i5 you will, Boy> 2ertainly, 'o)rates, t%ou3% . am mu)% in8i3orated by t%e solution o5 two &arts o5 t%e &uCCle wit% one t%ou3%t, .t was truly wonder5ul to see su)% sim&le e55e)ti8eness, (re all 3reat t%ou3%ts as sim&le as t%ese, on)e you see t%em )learly<

'o)rates> ;%at do you say, Meno< 0o t%ou3%ts 3et sim&ler as t%ey 3et 3reater< Meno> ;ell, it would a&&ear t%at t%ey do, 5or as t%e master o5 a 3reat %ouse, . )an just order somet%in3 be done, and it is? but i5 . were a master in a lesser %ouse, . would %a8e to wat)% o8er it mu)% more )losely to insure it 3ot done, T%e bi33er t%e de)isions . %a8e to ma6e, t%e more %el& and ad8i)e . 3et in t%e ma6in3 o5 t%em, so . would %a8e to a3ree, 'o)rates> 9lad to see t%at you are still a3reeable, Meno, t%ou3% . t%in6 t%ere are some sli3%t di55eren)es in t%e way ea)% o5 us 8iew t%e sim&li)ity o5 3reat t%ou3%t, '%all we 3o on< Meno> :es, 4uite, Boy> :es, 'o)rates, . am ready 5or t%e last 3rou&, t%e ratios o5 e8en numbers di8ided by t%e odd, t%ou3%, . )annot yet see %ow we will 5i3ure t%ese out, yet, some%ow . %a8e )on5iden)e t%at t%e walls o5 t%ese numbers s%all tumble be5ore us, as did t%e t%ree 3rou&s be5ore t%em, 'o)rates> @et us re8iew t%e t%ree earlier 3rou&s, to &re&are us 5or t%e 5ourt%, and to ma6e sure t%at we %a8e not already bro6en t%e rules and t%ere5ore 5or5eited our wa3er, T%e 5our 3rou&s were e8en o8er e8en ratios, w%i)% we de)ided )ould be redu)ed in 8arious manners to t%e ot%er 3rou&s by di8idin3 until one number o5 t%e ratio was no lon3er e8en? t%en we eliminated t%e two ot%er 3rou&s w%i)% %ad odd numbers di8ided by eit%er odd or e8en numbers, be)ause t%e 5irst or to& number %ad to be twi)e t%e se)ond or bottom number, and t%ere5ore )ould not be odd? t%is le5t t%e last 3rou& we are now to 3reet, e8en di8ided by odd, Boy> ;onder5ully &ut, 'o)rates, .t is amaCin3 %ow neatly you &ut an %our o5 t%in6in3 into a minute, Per%a&s we )an, indeed, &ut ten years o5 t%in6in3 into t%is one day, Please )ontinue in t%is manner, i5 you 6now %ow it )an be done, 'o)rates> ;ould you %a8e me )ontinue, Meno< :ou 6now w%at s%all %a8e to %a&&en i5 we sol8e t%is next 3rou& and do not

5ind t%e s4uare root o5 two in it, Meno> 'o)rates, you are my 5riend, and my tea)%er, and a 3ood )om&anion, . will not s%ir6 my duty to you or to t%is 5ine boy, w%o a&&ears to be 3rowin3 beyond my %ead, e8en as we s&ea6, Bowe8er, . still do not see t%at %is %ead %as rea)%ed t%e )louds w%erein lie t%e minds o5 t%e Pyt%a3oreans, 'o)rates> Aery well, on t%en, to e8en o8er odd, .5 we multi&ly t%ese numbers times t%emsel8es, w%at do we 3et, boy< Boy> ;e will 3et a ratio o5 e8en o8er odd, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> (nd )ould an e8en number be double an odd number< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> 'o, indeed, t%is )ould be w%ere we 5ind a number su)% t%at w%en multi&lied times itsel5 yields an area o5 two< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, .t )ould 8ery well be in t%is 3rou&, 'o)rates> 'o, t%e 5irst, or to& number, is t%e result o5 an e8en number times itsel5< Boy> :es, 'o)rates> (nd t%e se)ond, or bottom number, is t%e result o5 an odd number times itsel5< Boy> :es, 'o)rates> (nd an e8en number is two times one w%ole number< Boy> O5 )ourse, 'o)rates> 'o i5 we use t%is e8en number twi)e in multi&li)ation, as we %a8e on to&, we %a8e two twos times two w%ole numbers< Boy> :es, 'o)rates,

'o)rates> Dnud3es MenoE and t%ere5ore t%e to& number is 5our times some w%ole number times t%at w%ole number a3ain< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> (nd t%is number on to& %as to be twi)e t%e number on t%e bottom, i5 t%e e8en o8er odd number we be3an wit% is to 3i8e us two w%en multi&lied by itsel5, or s4uared, as we )all it< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> (nd i5 t%e to& number is 5our times some w%ole number, t%en a number %al5 as lar3e would %a8e to be two times t%at same w%ole number< Boy> O5 )ourse, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> 'o t%e number on t%e bottom is two times t%at w%ole number, w%ate8er it is< Boy> :es, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> Dstandin3E (nd i5 it is two times a w%ole number, t%en it must be an e8en number, must it not< Boy> :es, 'o)rates> T%en is )annot be a member o5 t%e 3rou& w%i)% %as an odd number on t%e bottom, )an it< Boy> No, 'o)rates, 'o)rates> 'o )an it be a member o5 t%e ratios )reated by an e8en number di8ided by an odd number and t%en used as a root to )reate a s4uare< Boy> No, 'o)rates, (nd t%at must mean it )an7t be a member o5 t%e last 3rou&, doesn7t it<

'o)rates> :es, my boy, alt%ou3% . don7t see %ow we )an )ontinue )allin3 you boy, sin)e you %a8e now won your 5reedom, and are 5ar ri)%er t%an . will e8er be, Boy> (re you sure we %a8e &ro8ed t%is &ro&erly< @et me 3o o8er it a3ain, so . )an see it in my %ead, 'o)rates> :es, my boy, er, a%, sir, Boy> ;e want to see i5 t%is s4uare root o5 two we dis)o8ered t%e ot%er day is a member o5 t%e rational numbers< 'o)rates> :es, Boy> 'o we de5ine t%e rational numbers as numbers made 5rom t%e di8ision into ratios o5 w%ole numbers, w%et%er t%ose w%ole numbers are e8en or odd, 'o)rates> :es, Boy> ;e 3et 5our 3rou&s, e8en o8er e8en, w%i)% we don7t use, odd o8er e8en, odd o8er odd, and e8en o8er odd, 'o)rates> 2ontinue, Boy> ;e 6now t%e 5irst number in t%e s4uared ratio )annot be odd be)ause it must be twi)e t%e 8alue o5 t%e se)ond number, and t%ere5ore is must be an e8en number, two times a w%ole number, T%ere5ore it )annot be a member o5 eit%er o5 t%e next 3rou&s, be)ause t%ey bot% %a8e w%ole numbers o8er odd numbers, 'o)rates> ;onder5ulL Boy> 'o we are le5t wit% one 3rou&, t%e e8ens o8er odds, 'o)rates> :es, Boy> ;%en we s4uare an e8en o8er odd ratio, t%e 5irst number be)omes e8en times e8en, w%i)% is two times two times some ot%er w%ole number, w%i)% means it is 5our times t%e w%ole number,

and t%is number must be double t%e se)ond number, w%i)% is odd, as it was made o5 odd times odd, But t%e to& number )annot be double some bottom odd number be)ause t%e to& number is 5our times some w%ole number, and t%e bottom number is odd==but a number w%i)% is 5our times anot%er w%ole number, )annot be odd w%en )ut in %al5, so an e8en number times an e8en number )an ne8er be double w%at you would 3et 5rom any odd number times anot%er odd number, , , t%ere5ore none o5 t%ese rational numbers, w%en multi&lied times t%emsel8es, )ould &ossibly yield a ratio in w%i)% t%e to& number was twi)e t%e bottom number, (maCin3, ;e %a8e &ro8ed t%at t%e s4uare root o5 two is not a rational number, Fantasti)L D%e )ontinues to wander u& and down t%e sta3e, re)itin3 8arious &ortions o5 t%e &roo5 to %imsel5, loo6in3 u&, t%en down, t%en all around, Be )omes to MenoE Boy> 0o you see< .t7s so sim&le, so )lear, T%is is really wonder5ulL T%is is 5antasti)L 'o)rates> Dlays an arm on Meno7s armE Tell %im %ow %a&&y you are 5or %is new 5ound t%ou3%ts, Meno, 5or you )an easily tell %e is not t%in6in3 at all o5 %is newly won 5reedom and wealt%, Meno> . 4uite a3ree wit% you, son, t%e )larity o5 your reasonin3 is truly astoundin3, . will lea8e you %ere wit% 'o)rates, as . 3o to &re&are my %ouse%old, . trust you will bot% be %a&&y 5or t%e rest o5 t%e day wit%out my assistan)e, [T%e &arty, t%e &resentation o5 1K years salary to t%e newly 5reed youn3 man, is anot%er story, as is t%e ori3inal story o5 t%e drawin3 in t%e sand t%e s4uare wit% an area o5 two,$ End o5 Proje)t 9utenber37s Etext o5 t%e 'e)ond 'tory o5 Meno

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