Tami Simon: Youre listening to Insights at the Edge. Today my guest is Jeff Foster.

Jeff teaches and shares from his own awakened experience a way out of seeking fulfillment in the future and into the acceptance of all this, here and now. Jeffs teaching style is direct and uncompromising, and yet full of humanity, humor, and compassion. e !elongs to no tradition or lineage and makes his teaching accessi!le to all. "n #$%#, Jeff was &oted !y The Watkins Review to !e one of worlds %$$ most spiritually influential li&ing people. 'ith (ounds True, Jeff has written a new !ook called The Deepest Acceptance: Radical Awakening in Ordinary Life and an accompanying audio program where he in&ites listeners to disco&er to disco&er the ocean of who we are, an awareness that has already allowed e&ery wa&e of emotion and experience to arri&e. "n this episode of Insights at the Edge, Jeff and " spoke a!out how acceptance is actually what we are. 'e also talked a!out how to work with &ery practical concerns like our fears of financial insufficiency. )nd we talked a!out the power of meeting someone and !eing with someone who is suffering or who is in pain, and how to do this with an a!solutely open em!race. Finally, Jeff and " spoke a!out the path of awakening that hes tra&elled through experiences of deep depression and some of the most important disco&eries hes made. eres my &ery real, honest, and helpful con&ersation with Jeff Foster. "n the introduction to your new !ook, The Deepest Acceptance, you !egin, Jeff, with a really strong statement*+a, really strong, definiti&e statement, and " want to !e !egin our con&ersation there. eres what you write- " teach one thing, and one thing only- a deep and fearless acceptance of whate&er comes your way. (o to !egin with, its a strong statement, to write the words " teach one thing and one thing only. Jeff Foster: Yeah, well you know, this is a radical message really that " teach. "d say it wasnt for the faint.hearted, exactly. "d say its a !asic pro!lem of humanity, if we could speak a!out that. "ts that we&e, on some le&el, we are afraid of life or we ha&e !ecome afraid of life, afraid of li&ing. You know we spend so much of our time, it seems, turning away from life, turning away from oursel&es/ turning away from pain, turning away from fear, turning away from sadness, turning away from dou!t. )nd "d say that if " had to summari0e e&erything that " ha&e to teach its, stop. (top turning away. )nd stay with life and turn towards life if you can. Face what is actually here. "n the end, come to know 1

it as yourself. "t so often feels that life is somehow against us, you know1 2r that life is doing something to us, or that life is going wrong, or that life is not going our way. 3y in&itation is- stop and look at what is actually here. 4ome out of your story of your life*life is this, life is that, or this is going wrong, or thats going wrong, this will happen, that will happen. Just gently return to what is actually here. " talk a!out the constant in&itation of life. " see life as a constant in&itation to simply return home, in a sense, to return to whats actually in front of you*!ecause thats really all youre e&er dealing with, although it can often seem like its so much more. Just face whats here. TS: 5ow this idea of facing whats here, a deep and fearless acceptance of whate&er comes your way* !ut you know, o!&iously, there are some really difficult things that come peoples way. )nd so as youre talking, "m imagining some of those really difficult things and some!ody who says, You know, how do " really accept and fearlessly turn towards the grief that " ha&e from something like losing a child*or something that 6ust seems un!eara!le1 JF: Thats so true. You know sometimes life can get really, really challenging, and you know, we are faced with these wa&es. " talk in the !ook a lot a!out the wa&es in the ocean of you. "f you see yourself as this &ast ocean, all these wa&es are always appearing*thoughts, sensations, feelings*these are all the wa&es appearing in you. )s you said, a!solutely, oftentimes the wa&es can get really intense. These are !ig wa&es- wa&es of fear, wa&es of grief, wa&es of sadness, wa&es of fear, wa&es of dou!t, and wa&es of 6oy, wa&es of !liss. " mean its all allowed in you. You know, its all essentially, what you are is the space for all of that. 7ut as you said, sometimes these wa&es can get so intense and the truth is, we often dont know what to do with them. 8espite e&erything that we&e learned and our spiritual e&olution, all the experiences that we&e had and all the insights that we&e had, all the awakenings that we&e had, still, sometimes these wa&es appear in &ery intense wa&es of grief, as you said. TS: 2r like a tsunami, lets say. JF: 9ike a tsunami, yes.

TS: (omeones experiencing something like that. 5ot some wa&e !ut something that seems like 2h my :od, this will crush me. JF: Yes, yes. )nd it happens to the !est of us. "t happens to the most supposedly awakened and enlightened people. 5o one is immune from these tsunamis. Thats part of the in&itation, though*you know, a great place to start is actually 6ust to !e totally honest a!out this. This tsunami is appearing, this tsunami of grief, of fear, and in this moment, " dont know what to do with it. "t can !e a &ery !eautiful place to start. ;ather than going into the whole story of " dont know what to do with it, and 'hats wrong with me, why cant " deal with it1 )nd "ts going to o&erwhelm me* and you know, all the stories that we tell. To actually come !ack to the truth of the moment*which could !e, in the moment, it could !e, " do not know how to face this. 2ften " say that were told a lot a!out resistance/ a lot of these spiritual teachings talk a!out resistance and how were always resisting the moment and we should stop resisting the moment, that we resist our pain, we resist our fear, and that we should stop. " think what " would say is that " think its pro!a!ly more true to say that no ones acti&ely resisting their fear. 5o one is acti&ely resisting their grief. "ts pro!a!ly more true to say that we 6ust dont know how to !e with our grief. )nd we dont know how to !e with our fear. "ts not that were resisting it. "ts more like we dont know how to sit with it, how to !e with it. <ossi!ly !ecause, no one has e&er shown us how to sit with grief, how to !e with grief. 'ere taught, from when were &ery young, not to feel so much of this stuff. 'ere taught that sadness is !ad, or fear is !ad, or anger is !ad. (o we spend so much of our time running away from these feelings, !ecause really, who has e&er shown us, whose e&er held our hand in the midst of our grief, in the midst of our pain, in the midst of our dou!t1 'ho has e&er 6ust sat with us and held our hand and for a moment, not try to fix us or change us or to get us to not feel that or to get us to try to feel something different1 "t seems to me that we&e really forgotten, or may!e we ne&er knew, how to !e with these giant wa&es. )nd as " said that can !e a !eautiful place to start- 6ust to admit your innocence, in a sense, to admit that with total humility*)ctually, " dont know how to !e with this, *and to !egin there. 3

TS: 5ow, what would you say to the person who says, You know, " dont know how to !e with this o&erwhelming something, whate&er it might !e*whether its fear or whate&er*!ecause of this intensity. "t 6ust seems theres too much intensity there. (ometimes " hear from people, "f " really let myself feel this thing, "ll start crying, and they say, "ll ne&er stop crying if " start crying. (o what would you say to that person who has a fear of the intensity1 JF: Thats so true. You know " often say, " dont think were so much afraid of death, " dont think anyone is really afraid of death, " think were actually afraid of life. 'ere afraid of the intensity of life, !ecause as you say, it can get so intense. )nd certainly o&er the past fi&e, six years as "&e !een tra&eling around the world speaking to people and really going into this with them, " hear that so often. They say, Jeff, "m afraid if " really 6ust allow this grief for 6ust one moment, if " truly allow this, if this grief is let loose, if it was unrestrained, if " 6ust stop for a moment running away from it, " fear that it would stick. "t would ne&er go away. "t would destroy me. " mean were really getting into some primal fears here. The fear of !eing destroyed !y this wa&e, that this wa&e will annihilate me, this wa&e will destroy me, you know. This wa&e, it will 6ust o&ertake me. " will !ecome something +else,. Theres so many fears around it. (o this is really where we get to the core message of my !ook, which is the deepest acceptance, !ecause thats always the =uestion- 'ell, how can " accept1 'hen things are going your way, when the wa&es are nice and gentle, when its a lo&ely sunny day in the ocean and the wa&es are nice and gentle, it seems easy to accept the present moment. +7ut, when the wa&es !ecome intense and the tsunamis arise, the =uestion is 'ell yeah, !ut how to accept this1 (o we try to accept these tsunamis. This is what " say in the !ook. Theres so many people out there that " meet who are trying to accept this moment. Theyre trying to say yes to the moment. Theres a lot of trying that happens/ we try to accept the tsunami, !ut !ecause of the fear and the intensity in that moment, we 6ust feel una!le to accept. 'e feel una!le to allow. (o then were faced with the tsunami and, in the moment, our own ina!ility to accept it*our own ina!ility, our failure to accept it. (o then that !ecomes the truth of the moment is that theres this giant tsunami and theres, in this moment, a sense of ina!ility to face it. 4

'hat " say in the !ook +is, actually, thats not a failing of yours. Thats not actually a sign of your failure, that fact that you feel una!le to accept this moment. Theres a much deeper truth contained there. This is why " speak a!out the deepest acceptance. " talk a!out acceptance not as something we d !what " say in the !ook is actually acceptance is who we are. "ts another name for you. )cceptance is another name for who you are. <eace and rest and freedom and all the good stuff that were looking for* its not actually a case of doing something to get there, its more a case of remem!ering how youre actually !uilt. Youre !uilt as acceptance. Thats your true nature. TS: 5ow can you explain that a little !it more1 "m not sure "m following you, exactly, that acceptance is who we all are, !ecause you see a lot of people who dont seem to !e particularly accepting. JF: Thats so true. )cceptance is who we are. "ts how were !uilt and thats what we forget. " would say thats pro!a!ly the pro!lem of humanity*and all conflict, and all suffering and all &iolence, and all destructi&e !eha&ior actually emerges from that forgetting of who we are. (o if you&e e&er meditated*may!e this is a way of talking a!out it in the most simple way. "f you&e e&er meditated, youre sitting there watching thoughts come and go, may!e watching sensations come and go, and it starts to dawn on you that may!e you arent who you thought you were !ecause if thoughts can come and go, then they cant truly define who you really are !ecause who you truly are in your essence cant come and go. "t cant come and go. "t cant appear and disappear. 'ho you truly are, is always, always here. "ts always present. " think e&eryone in the world has that !asic sense of !eing here, existing right now in this moment. 'e can dou!t e&erything, e&erything were told, e&erything were taught except the fact that we exist right now. Theres a sense of !eing here. "t doesnt really matter where we are. "ts not !eing here, or !eing there, its !eing where we are*where&er we are in the world, its !eing where we are. >&eryone has that sense, and thats what " call the ocean, the ocean of consciousness, the ocean of awareness. (o youre sitting in meditation, youre noticing thoughts coming and going, and feelings coming and going, and sensations coming and going, and you start to reali0e that actually, who " am cant !e thoughts, who " am cant !e feelings, who " am, in my 5

essence, cant !e sensations, !ecause they all come and go. (o you start to notice that theres something here that doesnt come and go thats always present, this ocean of who you are*this is what " call it- the ocean of who you are. (o you start to notice that within that ocean of who you are, within this e&er.present wide open space of you, all the wa&es of life are always appearing and disappearing. Thoughts come and go. (ensations come and go. Feelings come and go. )ll the wa&es arise and dissol&e in the ocean of you. 'ho you are always remains. (o when " talk a!out acceptance, "m talking a!out it is a different way, perhaps, +than, we&e used the word !efore. (o acceptance is not a case of me +doing the, accepting- " ha&e to accept this moment, or " ha&e to accept this fear. " ha&e to accept this pain. You could say that on a deeper le&el, who you are as the ocean is already accepting or allowing its wa&es. >&ery wa&e that arises in the ocean of you is in a sense already accepted. "ts already allowed !ecause its appearing, !ecause its here. (o if a thought is appearing, it means on the deepest le&el, the ocean of you, is already allowing that thought. "f a sensation is appearing right now in your present experience, it means that who you are in the ocean of you is allowing that sensation. "ts allowing this feeling. "ts allowing this sadness. "ts allowing this pain. "ts allowing this 6oy. "f a wa&e is arising in you, it means on the deepest le&el that who you are in a sense has already said yes to it. )nd in a sense, who you are has already said yes to this moment exactly as it is. (o these thoughts, these sensations, these feelings, e&en this dou!t or this confusion or this pain thats appearing right now*on a deeper le&el, who you are is allowing it, who you are is accepting it, who you are has said yes to it. (o e&en if it seems, on a surface le&el, it seems unaccepta!le to you, to the mind, to the thought*your thought might say, This sadness shouldnt !e here. 2r a thought might say, This is too much sadness. 2r a thought might e&en say, This isnt en "gh sadness, !ecause thought is always comparing*!ut on a deeper le&el, who you are as the ocean is already allowing this sadness. This sadness has already !een welcomed into you*thats why its here. " mean in a way, this goes completely against our common sense of what were taught and it can seem, e&en when you first hear it, it can seem e&en cra0y or confusing. 7ut really, its not something that you !elie&e/ its something that you !egin to notice in your own 6

experience. "ts like life !ecomes this constant meditation, noticing thoughts, noticing sensations, noticing feelings, and then noticing on a deeper le&el, that whate&er is arising in this moment, e&en if its &ery intense, e&en on the most !asic le&el, its not your enemy. " think thats the core reali0ation, that if sadness is arising in you, e&en if its &ery intense, its not your enemy. 5o wa&e is against the ocean. "ts already !eing allowed in you. (o what " would say is life is 6ust this ne&er.ending in&itation to remem!er this already accepted nature of present experience. (o acceptance isnt something that you do. "ts not " accept this moment or " dont accept this moment. "ts noticing on a deeper le&el that this moment has already !een accepted. (o thats what " mean when " talk a!out the deepest acceptance. "ts an acceptance that goes !eyond " accept and " dont accept. "n a sense, its total surrender actually to life. "ts total surrender. "ts like recogni0ing your total humility in the face of life. 7ut its not a place of powerlessness and passi&ity. "d say its the a!solute opposite, !ecause its disco&ering this inner !uilt.in yes to life. "ts a yes to e&ery moment, +!ut, not as something that you ha&e to stri&e to do. "ts not like " ha&e to stri&e to say yes, !ecause that !ecomes so exhausting, " think, trying to accept this moment e&en when this moment !ecomes so difficult. 'e try and try and try and we try and we try and we try and we try to accept it. "t can !ecome so exhausting, trying to accept this moment. 7ur e&en that exhaustion is part of the in&itation*to notice, to gi&e up trying to accept, and notice that on this deeper le&el this moment has already !een allowed in. These thoughts, these sensations, these feelings, these wa&es of experience ha&e already arri&ed, so its too late, in a sense, to fight them. "ts too late to accept them and its too late to fight them !ecause theyre already here. TS: "s it fair to say, Jeff, using this metaphor of the wa&es and the ocean*from a kind of practical, on.the.spot +perspecti&e, that if some!ody find themsel&es deeply identified with some kind of &ery intense wa&e of experience that seems difficult or o&erwhelming, that if they shift their attention to the oceanic nature of our experience, that that makes room from this acknowledgement of acceptance1 'hat do you think a!out that1 (hifting to !eing the ocean &ersus identifying with the wa&e. 7

JF: 'ell, thats it really. "ts all a!out remem!ering your true identity as this &ast, spacious ocean, rather than identifying as this small limited person. >&ery moment is this in&itation to remem!er that actually you are much &aster than you e&er imagined. You know, " think thats what goes to the core of so much suffering, especially the people "&e met o&er the past few years. Theres this sense that when were suffering, that somehow were somehow too small, were too limited to take this. This pain is too much for me, or this fear is too much for me, or this grief is too much for me. Thats how it can feel, !ut of course in reality, this moment is ne&er really too much. 'hate&er is going on in this moment, e&en if this moment is &ery intense and full of pain and full of fear, you could say that theres something here that is already holding this moment, its already em!racing this moment. "ts already allowing this moment to !e, e&en if you feel personally una!le to !ear this moment, that you fell una!le to take this moment. You feel una!le to accept this moment. 'hat you are as this &ast oceanic space is already holding the fear. (o suffering is really all to do with identification. For example, when theres a wa&e of fear*and it could !e anything, it could fear, it could anger, it could sadness*thats an in&itation to remem!er who you are. 'ho you are in this moment is holding the fear, who you are is the space for that fear. 'hat " am in this moment is the space for this fear. "n a way "m gi&ing this fear space. You know, "m gi&ing this fear !reathing room. "m making it safe for this fear to express itself. "m making it safe for this pain to express itself. "m making it safe for this sadness, for this dou!t, to express itself. "n a way, its completely the opposite of e&erything were taught a!out oursel&es. "t turns life upside down !ut we remem!er oursel&es as this &ast ocean that is allowing these wa&es to !e. "n a sense, these wa&es, a wa&e of fear is not the enemy. Thats what were taught, may!e. ) wa&e of pain, a wa&e of sadness is not the enemy/ as the ocean, you could say its one of your children, you know1 )s the ocean, you gi&e !irth to a wa&e of fear, you gi&e !irth to a wa&e of sadness. These are not enemies to !e destroyed, these are children to !e held, to !e lo&ed in this moment. 9ife doesnt ask any more of you than that. Youre only facing this moment of fear. 'hen we go into the identification, when we forget our true identity, as you said, the ocean, this &ast ocean, this &ast space in which fear is appearing right now. 'hen we 8

forget how &ast we are, we forget how spacious we are. 'e forget how lo&ing we are, in a sense, how deeply em!racing we are. 'e start to identify with that wa&e. (o, instead of remem!ering oursel&es as the &ast ocean in which fear is coming and going right now, we identify as someone who is afraid. " think thats the fundamental difference !etween remem!ering who you really are and forgetting who you really are. "ts that identification. (o we remem!er oursel&es as in this moment, and its only in the moment, !ecause thats all there is, ultimately. +"f, we remem!er oursel&es right now as this &ast ocean in which this wa&e of fear is allowed, and we dont identity as " am the one who is afraid, or " am the one who is sad, or " am the one who is in pain, " am the &ictim* !ecause theres always some kind of &ictim story !ehind that. +8oing, this is not a denial or a re6ection of the wa&e. "ts not pushing the wa&e away. "ts not saying 2h that fear cant touch me. "m !eyond fear. You know, all the spiritual !ypassing stuff that we do sometimes. "ts not a!out that. "ts a!out acknowledging that the fear is here*acknowledging it, noticing it*and at the same time as remem!ering yourself as the wide open space thats holding that fear. (o the fear is allowed to mo&e in me, !ut ultimately, it doesnt define me. (o its !oth. "ts like allowing the fear to fully express itself without pushing it away. 7ut at the same time remem!ering yourself as this &ast space. TS: 5ow Jeff, for whate&er reason, "m thinking a!out some!ody who might ha&e a fear *lets say of financial insufficiency of some kind. 9ike, "m 6ust not going to ha&e enough money. )nd this is all great, this spiritual talk that Jeffs gi&ing a!out remem!ering the oceanic nature of consciousness, !ut " really need to attend to this fear a!out not ha&ing enough money and kind of get it together here and mo!ili0e and if " rest in this oceanic place and +dont, really concern myself exactly with this fear, "m not going to manifest practically the way " need to. ow would you respond to that1

JF: Thats such a common =uestion that " get. " get that =uestion so often that its Jeff, this all sounds wonderful, you know, remem!ering myself as the ocean, and coming !ack to the moment and deeply allowing, !ut how does that help me make money and how does that pay my !ills1 )nd what a!out this, what a!out that1 TS: "&e asked a =uestion that you get asked a lot, !ut thats ok. Thats ok. "m alright with that. 9

JF: +La"ghs, "ts not an original =uestion, Tami. TS: "ts ok. " can roll. JF: You can roll. +La"ghs, Thats good. "ts interesting, " was talking to a woman last week and we were ha&ing this +same, con&ersation and there was this possi!ility that she might lose her house in a few weeks, might not ha&e anywhere to li&e. )nd so when she came to me, she was o!&iously full of anxiety and stress. (he was talking, talking, talking &ery, &ery fast. 'hat a!out this1 This might happen. That could happen. " might not ha&e anywhere to li&e. " might not ha&e any money. " might !e homeless. You know1 (o theres a relati&e reality to all of that. That could happen. "n a few weeks, she might ha&e a house or not ha&e a house or ha&e money or not ha&e money, !ut the point was that in this moment, she was trying to work it all out. (he was trying to get all the answers right now. (he was exhausting herself, trying to fix her life in this moment. (o what " did is, " 6ust in&ited her, to 6ust for a moment, instead of trying to fix her life and come up with a solution right now*" wasnt saying that the solution wouldnt e&er come. " wasnt saying that she was ne&er gonna ha&e money. The point is, in this moment, she didnt know. "n this moment, she hadnt found the answers yet, she hadnt found the solutions yet. They might come. Thats the funny thing, the strange thing that " find*and lots of people that " speak to find the same thing, actually*when they do 6ust come out of that complicated, stressful story, trying to sol&e the future*thats what we do. 'e sit here, in this moment, trying to fix the rest of our li&es. "t !ecomes so exhausting sometimes. (ometimes it can !e &ery !eautiful, 6ust in this moment, to admit that we dont know yet, that we ha&ent got the answers yet. Just for a moment to relax and sink into this place of not knowing, sink into this place where we dont ha&e the answers yet, sink into this place of mystery. )nd then like you said, what happens at the point is people go, Yeah, !ut if " sink into the mystery, the !ills wont get paid. "f " sink into life, "ll lose my home. "f " sink into life, "ll end up doing nothing. "ll end up !ecoming passi&e. 3y life will fall apart. " think thats a &ery primal fear, actually. "f " sit here and 6ust for a moment, do nothing, my life will fall apart. " think thats really fascinating that we ha&e that fear- if " sit here and do nothing, 6ust for one moment*!ecause thats all were asking* my whole life will fall apart. (o its interesting with this woman " was speaking to, " 6ust gently in&ited 10

her to come !ack to !reathing and !egin to 6ust feel the sensations in her !ody and 6ust feel the fear, actually. 'here was the fear in her !ody1 (he pointed to her stomach and her neck and her throat. )nd " 6ust asked her to !ring some attention !ack to the life, the life that she was, the life that was actually mo&ing in her, the tingly ali&e sensation that was mo&ing in her now, to come out*in a way*to come out of this story of 3Y life. 3y life and my pro!lems, and my solutions, and in three weeks time "ll !e homeless, to come out of that 6ust for a moment +from, the story of my life and in a sense return to life, to remem!er the life that you are, to remem!er that life that she was. )nd then what was really interesting, as she 6ust allowed herself to actually feel the sensations in her !ody, and actually feel the fear rather than running away from the fear, trying to sol&e the fear*!ecause in a way thats all she was doing. (he was trying to fix, present fear. (he was trying to get rid of present fear !y sol&ing the story of her life, !y fixing the story of her life, like she was coming out of life in a way and going into the story of 3Y life. 7ut the point is, it wasnt working. "t was 6ust causing exhaustion and stress and no answers were coming. The answers hadnt come yet. 'hat was really interesting was that she 6ust relaxed into her !ody and started to honor the fear, rather than running away from it, started to acknowledge it and to honor it and e&en to share it with me, to meet fear, actually*not to try to fix fear or push it away, !ut to actually meet it. Thats when she started to relax and suddenly, her life didnt seem like such a disaster and suddenly it wasnt such a catastrophe. )nd the funny thing is, from that place, thats the creati&e place, the mystery of this moment, thats the source of all creati&ity. "f answers are going to come, this is where they come from*the mystery of the moment. They dont come in the story of three weeks time. The answers that we long for, they emerge in their own sweet time out of this mystery and its like the mind is*its &ery sweet*the mind is trying to sol&e our li&es for us. The mind is a !eautiful tool and we dont want to get rid of it and we dont want to make it into the enemy, !ut sometimes life 6ust in&ites us to come out of that story of my life and sol&ing my life and fixing my life and 6ust remem!er the mystery that you are. TS: 5ow Jeff in this story that you directed this person, helped this person sit with the feeling of fear that was in her !ody, and it seems like that is a really important step and one that can !e hard for people, especially if they ha&ent trained*at least in my 11

experience*in some form of em!odied focus and attention. ow do you help people stay with that, stay with the physiology of whats happening inside of them1 JF: " guess what " do, if " could summari0e what " do with people, is " dont do &ery much, actually. " dont experience myself as d ing &ery much with people. For me, its a!out meeting them, you know1 " think so often, when we sit with someone, we meet someone, were in a con&ersation with someone, and theyre expressing fear, or theyre expressing pain, or theyre feeling dou!t or confusion, so =uickly we rush to help them or fix them or sol&e their pro!lems for them. "f someone is experiencing a lot of fear, may!e out of compassion, out of lo&e, we try to stop them feeling what theyre feeling, or we =uickly offer solutions or may!e we e&en pretend to ha&e some kind of answer. 'hat " tend to do with people*" dont do that so much. " find that what truly heals*" mean, this is my own experience with people*what truly heals is this meeting, this !eing with. "ll sit with someone whos experiencing a lot of fear, and theyre going into this fearful story of This will happen, that will happen, " wont !e a!le to eat, "ll !e homeless, "ll d ie, "ll end up in a ditch somewhere. " dont gi&e them answers. " dont try and fix them. " dont pretend to ha&e the solutions. "m 6ust &ery honest a!out that. " dont pretend to know anymore than they do. 'hat " think " do* and " wouldnt e&en say its a d ing, actually*" 6ust pro&ide the space for them to meet their own fear. "f "m a!le to sit there and meet them as they are, and not turn away from them, and not try to fix them, and not gi&e them easy answers or try to pro&e what a wonderful teacher " am !ecause " know so much*it doesnt interest me. You know1 "t doesnt interest me. 'hat interests me is really meeting +them,. )s " was saying !efore, " think thats what we&e forgotten as a species. 'e&e forgotten !asically how to !e with oursel&es. Thats actually where all of our suffering !egins is this forgetting of who we are, which is the forgetting !asically of how to sit with oursel&es, how to sit with our fear. 5o one has e&er shown us how to sit with fear. <eople ha&e taught us throughout our li&es how to get rid of fear, how to escape fear, how to turn fear into something else, !ut whos e&er shown us how to !e with fear in the moment of fear*facing the fact of fear, sitting there facing the fact of fear in the present moment. 'ho has e&er shown us how to 6ust stay there1 'ere gi&en so many techni=ues and solutions and methods of how to get rid of stuff. 12

(o hopefully what " do with people, perhaps !ecause of my own experiences o&er the years, "m far more a!le these days to sit with my own experience. "m far more a!le to sit with fear, to sit with sadness, to sit with confusion, to sit with dou!t in myself !ecause "&e learnt o&er the years not to run away from it. "&e learnt that actually running away from this moment does not pro&ide what we truly long for. owe&er paradoxical that sounds, you know, its actually this turning towards, this staying, stay, stay, stay, stay. " think thats the constant in&itation of life is to stay, stay, stay. >&en if in this moment, you feel that you cant stay, stay with that. (tay with that. (o " think for whate&er reason, +since, "m more a!le these days to stay with my own experience, "m far more a!le to stay as well with someone elses experience and not run away from it and not try to fix it. TS: " think youre actually pointing to something really important, which is the power of !eing with another person when we can unconditionally accept whate&er it is theyre going through. " think youre actually pointing here to something really important a!out how we can !e there for others. JF: " think thats the &ery essence of healing and the true meaning of the word. 'hat " would say is that for me, healing has nothing to do with the running away. "ts got nothing to do with fixing. ealing has nothing to do with fixing yourself. "ts got nothing to do with fixing people. "ts all a!out this staying with our experience, e&en if in the moment we feel like running away, e&en if it feels so uncomforta!le to stay there, e&en if were sitting with someone whos experiencing a lot of sadness or dou!t or confusion or anger. 'hen were sitting there with someone whos in that moment, expressing anger towards us and its aimed at us and theyre calling us names and theyre saying that we did these things. Theyre 6udging us. 2ften what happens at that point is we start to feel uncomforta!le. 'e start to feel hurt. 'e might e&en start to feel the urge to run away, either literally run away or psychologically run away from them !y 6ust withdrawing and num!ing oursel&es to them, pushing them away psychologically, or we might e&en feel the urge to attack them !ecause we feel attacked. 'e feel hurt. 'e dont know how to !e with our own hurt. 'e feel hurt and we dont know how to stay with that. 'e dont know how to !e with that. (o we lash !ack at them*theres that 13

urge to lash !ack them. (o this is the in&itation of life, and this is the in&itation that " offer and this is the in&itation " speak a!out in my !ook. 4an we 6ust stay there in that place, e&en if in the moment theres a lot of discomfort mo&ing in us, theres a lot of hurt mo&ing in us1 4an we stay with our own experience1 "n the end, thats all we can know. 4an we stay with our own experience, e&en if theres hurt, e&en if we feel hurt1 4an we find the place in that moment, where that wa&e, that intense wa&e of hurt mo&ing in us, is allowed to !e there1 4an we find our inherent &astness1 "n that moment, can we 6ust stop and notice that who we are is &ast enough1 'ho we are is oceanic. 'ho we are is !ig enough to contain that hurt, to hold that hurt, e&en if its !urning, e&en if its &ery intense, e&en if theres a strong urge to run away or the strong urge to push the other person away or attack them or fix them, manipulate them, or try to change their experience. 4an we stay with all of that1 4an we find the place where actually all of those wa&es mo&ing in us, 6ust for this moment, are allowed to !e here1 4an we remem!er that who we are is &ast enough to hold that hurt and then to meet the other person in that place of deep acceptance1 "&e had so much experience with this o&er the past few years, especially !eing a teacher, you know1 "ts one thing ha&ing all these insights and ha&ing an awakening experience, !ut its a whole other world going out and teaching it, !ecause youre exposing yourself to all kinds of situations and all kinds of people. Youre really opening yourself up for attack, for people to disagree with you and to not like how you teach or to not like what youre saying, !ecause its really challenging. ) lot of the stuff that " talk a!out can seem =uite challenging to people, and its understanda!le. "&e !een in situations, many situations the past few years, where "&e !een sitting with someone and they&e !een &ery angry with me, or they&e !een disagreeing with me &ery strongly and calling me this and that. " mean, it hasnt happened a lot, !ut "&e certainly experienced this. For me, its always an in&itation to deeply allow that, in that moment, whate&er wa&es it !rings up in me. 7ecause "m not immune. Theres no such thing as anyone who is immune from life. )nd " think that we ha&e this funny idea that awakening, or some people ha&e this funny idea that awakening or enlightenment, is a place of num!ness, or a place where you dont feel all these wa&es, you dont feel sad anymore, or you dont feel pain anymore, or the wa&es ha&e somehow !ecome a lot more gentle. 14

"n my own experience, its actually the other way around. 7ecause the wa&es are allowed to mo&e, actually the wa&es !ecome a lot more intense. The wa&es !ecome a lot more intense !ecause you lose interest in pushing them away. You lose interest in num!ing yourself to life !ecause you want to li&e. You know, " spent the first #? years of my life*" was !asically dead. " was num!. " was a!solutely num! to myself and to other people. (o "m not interested in num!ing myself to life anymore. "m not interested in pretending to !e the enlightened one who doesnt feel anything. That doesnt seem possi!le and it doesnt seem human. 'hat really interests me these days is meeting other human !eings in this place of deep acceptance, you know*noticing all these wa&es mo&ing in myself and finding the place where theyre all allowed to !e there, theyre all held. Thats how, actually, thats how we stop turning against the one in front of us. Thats how we can !reak the cycle of &iolence and conflict !ecause were allowing oursel&es to feel hurt 6ust in this moment and were remem!ering oursel&es as the &ast, unlimited, open space of consciousness that allows this wa&e of hurt. "t doesnt re6ect hurt. "t says yes to hurt, howe&er strange that sounds. "t says yes to hurt. "n a strange way, thats how we dont !ecome hurt, !y disco&ering this inner yes to hurt. Thats how we stop the identification of, " am the hurt one. " am the hurt one, you hurt me. " am the hurt one. " am the &ictim of you. " think thats where all &iolence, where all conflict !egins, is with the identification as some kind of &ictim. You know, you hurt me. You hurt me. (o remem!ering oursel&es as this &ast ocean in which the hurt is allowed*so its not pretending the hurt isnt there. "ts not pretending the hurt isnt there. "ts acknowledging it. "ts feeling it deeply, !ut its allowing that hurt to mo&e in you so that it doesnt get stuck. "t flows and it mo&es. )nd you remem!er on the deepest le&el that it cant hurt you, that what you are, as the ocean, isnt going to !e hurt !y this. "t might hurt, !ut you wont get hurt. " think thats the fundamental reali0ation, and thats how in my own experience how "m a!le to stay with people*e&en when they&e !ecome =uite &iolent or agitated or angry, to stay with them. @nderneath all of that, of course, you see their pain. You meet their pain*and thats where compassion can !egin, is when you remem!er that all this destructi&e !eha&ior is coming from pain, from unmet pain. "ts coming from unmet pain. 15

They simply are not a!le in this moment to meet themsel&es. (o may!e " can meet them. )nd thats*for me, what its really what its all a!out in the end. 9ife is all a!out this meeting*that meeting oursel&es, meeting our own pain, our own fear, our own !liss, our own 6oy*meeting all those wa&es in oursel&es and meeting the one in front of us in the same way actually. 7ecause in the end, its the same meeting*were really 6ust meeting oursel&es. "ts !ecome a !it of a clichA these days !ut its so true- we really are only meeting oursel&es in disguise. 'ere not nearly as different as we like to !elie&e. TS: 5ow, Jeff, theres so many things that " could talk to you a!out and that " want to talk to you a!out, so were going to ha&e to ha&e another one of these con&ersations soon, !ut in the meantime, " ha&e a sense that our listeners might !e curious a!out you. " mean here you are, you ha&e this !eautiful, 7ritish accent, JF: +9aughs, TS: )nd they may not know !ut you are young person, youre in your early B$s. "s that right1 JF: Thats true. Yeah, "m thirty*what am "1 "m B#, " think. TS: Yeah, there you go. (omething like that. JF: Yeah its around B#, " can confirm that later for you. + La"ghs, TS: Thank you. 'e can check the records, find your !irth certificate or whate&er. 7ut you know whats interesting, " think and what " think people would lo&e to hear more a!out is your own process. You talked a!out how the first #? years of your life, that you now in retrospect see that you were num!. 7ut "m curious to know, you&e written a little !it a!out how depressed you were, to the point of a type of suicidal depression !ut then your situation changed. You had some !reakthroughs, some insights, and here you are now helping other people. (o tell us a little !it a!out your own story here, especially the depression and what shifted that. JF: (ure. " was always a depressed child, depressed teenager in life. "f " had to sum it up, life always felt so hea&y for me. " would wake up e&ery morning, and you know, this 16

was #? years of this, e&er since " could remem!er, " would wake up e&ery morning and life 6ust felt, hea&y, hea&y, hea&y, hea&y. " was intensely shy, and intensely self. conscious. " dont think "d, " mean " !arely spoke to anyone until " was a!out #$, which is why its =uite ironic, considering these days " go around the world speaking to people and doing meetings and workshops. "ts funny how life can change like that. " was intensely self.conscious and it !ecame worse and worse, and " was 6ust filled with so much self.loathing and " hated the way " looked. " 6ust hated myself. " 6ust felt totally inade=uate. 3y life totally lacked any kind of intimacy. " was una!le to share anything with anyone. " was terrified of expressing myself to anyone out of this deep fear that if they really saw what was going on in me, if they really saw who " was, if they saw !eyond the facade, they would re6ect me. They would laugh at me. 2r they would ne&er want to speak to me again. You know1 " was 6ust someone who kept e&erything, e&erything in really. " really ne&er had any friends. " ne&er had anyone to speak to, really. " was kind of dying on the inside. "t got worse and worse, really/ through uni&ersity it got worse and worse. " was ##, #B, #C*" cant really remem!er*" was li&ing in 9ondon, working in the 774. " thought " was going to go into tele&ision !ack then. " was working in night shift. " hated my 6o!. " was in this relationship with this girl and it was &ery o!sessi&e. " thought she was the one. " thought she was going to complete me. "d found my soulmate. )nd she didnt agree. +La"ghs, )nd that all fell apart. " 6ust hit rock !ottom. " think around the same time " got =uite ill as well. " ended up in the hospital. "t was a kind of !reakdown. 9ooking !ack " can say it was a kind of !reakdown, !ut " think something had to shift, something had to !reak down, it couldnt go on the way it was going on. " think one e&ent that really started to change things was " had some kind of near.death experience. " mean, " reali0ed it was that now, may!e at the time " didnt reali0e it. "t was some kind of near.death experience. 2ne day, " was at a!solute rock !ottom. )nd " took the day off work !ecause " felt so !ad. " suddenly felt the need to run into the !athroom and " started &omiting, and " was &omiting !lood. " started to panic and started to lose consciousness and " fainted. " woke up, " dont know how long it was afterward* may!e ?.%$ minutes later*and " had fallen into my shower and there was !lood all o&er the shower. " remem!er not !eing a!le to 17

!reathe and " tried to scream for help and nothing would come out. " really had the sense, 'ell, this is it. You know, you hear these stories sometimes a!out people &omiting !lood out of nowhere and then fi&e minutes later theyre dead, and it really shook me to my core. "t a!solutely shook me to my core, lying there with !lood all around not !eing a!le to scream, not !eing a!le to get up. " thought, This is it then. This is the end. This is how the story ends. )nd " think that was the start of something. TS: 5ow, Jeff, 6ust to ask a =uestion, did you ha&e the kind of classic near.death experience where you lea&e your !ody and all of that, or was it more that you 6ust had a complete freakout experience, that you found yourself in a pool of !lood in the shower1 JF: Yeah, " think it was more of a case of a!solute existential terror, the likes of which "d ne&er experienced !efore. " mean, "d experienced fear of death !efore in my life, !ut this was like an encounter with*" mean its, " dont remem!er much a!out it !ut " do remem!er !eing &ery, &ery shaken !y it and it really set something off in me. "t was like, 3y :od, death is so close. 9ike at any moment, we can drop dead. (o what the hell am " doing with my life1 "t started to get these =uestions churning in me. Duestions "d ne&er, e&er asked !efore. " was a real kind of*" mean, "d !een educated as a scientist. " had a &ery rational mind and " was a total atheist at that point*no interest in spirituality, no interest in anything to do with spirituality at all. "t was all 6ust go!!ledygook. "t was all 6ust made up. You know1 7ut this started something, !ecause in my own experience, " felt "d come close to death of some kind. 2r at least the reali0ation that death is so close and life is so precious. " think thats what it started off in me, was this sense that 3y :od, this life is so precious, this moment is so precious, what the hell am " doing with my life1 "m working in a 6o! that " hate. " feel totally constrained and held !ack. "m not nearly !eginning to li&e any kind of life that " want to. "t was like " was li&ing some kind of ro!otic, secondhand life- go to school, go to uni&ersity. :et a degree. :o and get a 6o!. :et married. " was on the treadmill. TS: (o you can say that in a sense, you hit !ottom at the moment. 'ould that !e fair to say1 18

JF: " think " hit my first !ottom. TS: )h hah. 2E. +La"ghs, JF: )nd there were more !ottoms to come. +La"ghs, 7ut that first !ottom definitely set something off in me. (o " found myself in the hospital a few hours later and " remem!er &ery clearly " reached out, " found myself reaching out to a copy of the 7i!le, which was in one of the drawers !y my hospital !ed. "ts something " ne&er would ha&e done in my whole life !efore that. (o something in me was*it was like the seeker was !orn somehow. The spiritual seeker had !een !orn, looking for answers, looking for some kind of meaning to life. 'hat does all of this mean in the face of death1 'hat is death1 'hat is life1 )nd who am "1 )nd these =uestions started mo&ing in me !ut it wasnt*" mean, " needed the answers to these +=uestions, now. This wasnt a game anymore. " needed to know who " was, and " needed to know what death was and who dies. 'hat does life mean1 (o thats really*for the next year, couple of years, " !ecame a totally o!sessed spiritual seeker. " read and " read and " read. " read e&ery !ook a!out awakening and enlightenment that " could get my hands on. 7ut for me, " think it was all a!out death, really. "t was a!out death and it was a!out suffering as well. " think at some point " read some !ook a!out 7uddhism and a!out spiritual enlightenment. "d ne&er heard of spiritual enlightenment !efore. (uddenly, " needed this. (piritual enlightenment, this is going to !e the end of all my suffering, !ecause " had suffered so much. " was suffering so much. (o it !ecame this o!sessi&e, year.long, may!e two years, search for spiritual enlightenment. ;eally, " locked myself away. " mo&ed !ack to li&e with my parents for awhile. " locked myself away =uite literally in my room may!e for a year, two years. " mean, its all a !it !lurry now. )nd " read and read and read and " started meditating. )ll kinds of self.in=uiry practices, !ut it was all with the aim of !ecoming enlightened, you see1 "t was all with some future goal in mind. 2ne day "ll !ecome enlightened and all my suffering will end. TS: 'e need to keep going with your story here, !ecause " think at this point, many listeners may !e identifying with you in a certain sense. 9ike, Yes, " also not had, !ut have this deep passion to know who dies. Thats why " listen to Insights at the Edge podcasts ad nauseam, again and again and again, * +like, many listeners. )nd so 19

keep going, Jeff, !ecause !eyond this, you had some types of !reakthroughs that really led you to your work with The Deepest Acceptance. JF: 'ell, yes. " mean, it was an incredi!ly intense few years actually. )s " said, " !ecame totally o!sessed with enlightenment. " was really doing e&erything " could to !ecome enlightened. " ne&er actually went to any teachers. " ne&er went to any workshops or retreats or satsangs or seminars, or anything. " guess that was 6ust my character at the time. " had this fire in me and " kind of wanted to do it all myself. " had this sense, " remem!er a long time ago ha&ing this &ery strong sense that if theres anything such thing as peace, if theres anything such thing as freedom, if theres any such thing as awakening, "ll find it on my own. "ll find it here. " find it here in my room, here in my !ackyard. " had that sense from the &ery !eginning. 3ay!e it was a kind of stu!!ornness, may!e it was kind of shyness. " was still so shy, " didnt want to re&eal myself to other people. " was going to keep myself to myself. " dont know what " was thinking, actually, !ut it was this kind of o!sessi&eness of, "m going to do this myself. (o " started reading all the !ooks a!out enlightenment, and the enlightened teachers and the !reakthroughs that they had had, and their enlightenment experiences, and one day they were walking down the road and suddenly the self fell away. )nd you know the story of >ckhart Tolle*you know, hes lying in !ed and suddenly it all !ecomes clear. (o " started trying to make this happen for myself. 7ecause !ack then, this is what " thought awakening was*" thought it was some kind of e&ent that would happen one day, some experience that would happen one day. (o as the months went on, " !ecame more and more o!sessi&e really and " mean " had all kinds of insights o&er the months, years, actually. " had all kinds of insights, all kinds of experiences, as many spiritual seekers do along the way. You ha&e moments, hours, days sometimes, of 6ust deep !liss and peace, and then that passes and you want that experience !ack, or you ha&e some kind of experience of total oneness and then that passes. 2r you ha&e some experience of no thought* thought disappears for you know minutes, hours, days. " mean, you dont e&en know anymore. 7ut then that passes and thought comes !ack. " would ha&e all these experiences, " think, as many people do, !ut something still wasnt satisfied. " was still looking for something. "t got to the point, actually, that " didnt 20

e&en know what " was looking for anymore. " didnt e&en know what " was looking for. " 6ust felt " had to keep on looking. "t cant !e this. "t cant !e my present experience* whate&er it is, whate&er it is that the spiritual teachers are promising, the gurus, the spiritual teachers, whate&er theyre promising, it cant !e my +current, personal experience. That was the !asic sense*whate&er " was looking for, it was somewhere else. "t was in the future. (o no matter what " did, " couldnt get there. The experiences would come and go*the experiences of 6ust total !liss, total orgasmic !liss. 7eautiful, !ut they would pass and then " was always waiting for the final experience, the final enlightenment, awakening experience, and it would ne&er come. " was really hooked on that. " was really hooked on that idea of a future awakening, really hooked. "n my experience, that seemed to !e what some of the spiritual teachers were talking a!out*at least the ones " was reading *that awakening was something in the future/ it was something that would happen one day. (o really, the upshot of all of this " !ecame totally, totally exhausted. " was totally exhausting myself. " really 6ust lost touch with the outside world. "d gone into my little ca&e. " didnt ha&e any relationships at that point. " didnt ha&e any friends left, " dont think. " wasnt really talking to anyone a!out my experiences. There were some points, +where, sometimes, " e&en thought " was enlightened. " went through that as well. " had certain experiences and " came to the conclusion right, "m enlightened. " would go to !ed at night +la"ghs, !elie&ing that " was fully enlightened. )nd of course, "d wake up in the morning, and forget it. " was really dri&ing myself mad, !ut " couldnt find a way out. (o it 6ust got to this point of total exhaustion with the whole spiritual*anything spiritual, really. " was 6ust drowning in these spiritual concepts. )nd at that point, "d gotten into )d&aita and nonduality, which some of your listeners might ha&e heard of. " was grappling with all these concepts like, there is no me, and theres no self, and theres no time, and theres no space, and theres no choice, and all this stuff was swimming around my head. (o it reached this point of total exhaustion. 'ell, there was this one experience that " remem!er, that " talk a!out sometimes. "t wasnt really an experience, so much, !ecause thats what " had !een waiting for was 21

some !ig experience- " was looking for my sal&ation through experiences. )ctually what happened, " cant really say it was much of an experience/ it was more like a remem!ering of something that perhaps "d forgotten. (o " remem!er &ery distinctly- one day, " think " was 6ust lying in !ed in my !edroom in my parents house, totally exhausted, totally 6ust fra00led from all the spiritual seeking, 6ust tired of the whole thing. "m ne&er going to !ecome enlightened, !ut " cant gi&e up looking. That was the sense. "&e tried e&erything, nothings worked. >&erything that " do to try and !ecome awakened, e&en e&erything " do to try to !ecome awakened, seems to take me further away from it. (o " was lying there on my !ed in my !edroom*this was the !edroom "d grown up in, it was the same !edroom*and " 6ust remem!er, for some reason " 6ust glanced o&er at a chair. " was 6ust looking at the chair in my !edroom. This was a chair that "d seen thousands of times !efore. "td !een there since " was a child. "t was an old, familiar chair. )nd " guess, suddenly something that 6ust clicked or dawned on me. 2r " remem!ered something, or something !ecame o!&ious. "ts &ery hard to actually put into words !ecause it wasnt this !ig thing, really. "t was the sense of oh, of courseF 2f course. "t was like something &ery familiar. (omething "d always known, something that had always !een on the tip of my tongue, something that had always !een with me. "t wasnt like a new experience. "t was something that had always !een with me. )nd there was the sense that, 2h my :od, this moment is what "m looking for. This moment is what "&e always !een looking for. " mean, this might sound really strange, !ut there was this sense of 2h my god, its the chair. "ts the chair. +La"ghs, 7ecause "d !een*for years, may!e for my whole life actually, "d always !een looking for something, not e&en knowing what it was. >specially as a spiritual seeker, "d !een looking for enlightenment, this !ig experience, the fireworks. " wanted the fireworks. 'here is oneness1 'here is oneness1 There was a sense, in that moment*'ell, oneness is this. "ts already here. 'hate&er youre looking for, Jeff, its already here. )nd this didnt come in words/ it wasnt really the mind understanding this. "t was much deeper, much more primal than that. 'hate&er you&e !een looking for, Jeff, you were ne&er going to find it outside of what is actually here. " remem!er at that point, " think " 22

!urst into tears. " was weeping. " think it went on for a!out an hour, actually, !ecause there was 6ust this sense of total humility and gratitude. "t was like gratitude for a chairF "ts &ery hard to explain really. "t was like something as ordinary and simple as a chair. "&e !een o&erlooking this +for, my whole life !ecause "&e !een looking for something else, something more- wanting success, wanting enlightenment or wanting whate&er, and "&e !een o&erlooking the chair, which has always !een here, offering itself freely, asking nothing. 9ife itself has always !een here offering itself, and "&e always !een ignoring it. "&e always !een pushing it away or ignoring it or !eing ashamed of it, or 6ust not acknowledging it. "t was like for the first time, " was acknowledging the chair* howe&er strange that sounds. Then " remem!er looking around and my attention mo&ed from the chair to the carpet. "t was 6ust a &ery ordinary carpet, and there was 6ust this sense of, 2h my goodness, its also the carpet. +La"ghs, "t sounds funny when you talk a!out it. 'hate&er "&e !een longing for on the deepest le&el, its appearing right now as this chair and this carpet. " remem!er walking around the house, looking at e&erything, as if for the first time. " mean it really was*it sounds like a !it of a clichA*!ut it really was like seeing e&erything for the first time. Just seeing e&erything in the house without Jeff, actually. (eeing what life was like without Jeff, without the seeker, without Jeff looking for something, without this Jeff character who always felt incomplete and who always was looking for some kind of future completeness. "t was seeing life without Jeff, and the carpet and the walls and the lights, and then opening the window. )nd then, 2h my goodness, theres also all of thatF "t was like, theres also trees, and cars, and roadwork, and dogs, and dogs making a mess, and houses. Theres all of it. )nd then " remem!er looking down at my !ody, and " thought, 2h my :od, this is also part of itF !ecause for so long, "d !een stuck in all these spiritual ideas that the !ody was somehow an enemy, or enlightenment was the end of the !ody, or we should get rid of the !ody, or that we should transcend the !ody. "t was like this reali0ation turned e&erything on its head. 7ecause now, " knew now* and this really hasnt changed, " think this was the fundamental, fundamental reali0ation, this really hasnt gone away*is this sense that whate&er is arising right now, whether its chairs and its carpets, and its trees and its cars, or its thoughts, its sensations, its 23

feelings, these wa&es of sadness or a wa&e of fear*on the deepest le&el this is all sacred. This is all sacred and its all !elo&ed, in a way the mind will ne&er comprehend. "d spent so many years trying to understand this intellectually, or trying to reach some intellectual understanding, and " guess " reali0ed at that point that this isnt something to !e understood intellectually. "ts a!out noticing what is present, what is here, what is gi&en. (o " remem!er looking down at the !ody, at the hands and the feet and the legs and the hair and all the imperfections suddenly 6ust seen without the seeker, without the story of perfecting myself in the future, without the story of !ecoming enlightened. (een in the light of this em!race, e&en my imperfections were so perfect in a sense. They were all 6ust perfectly positioned. There was a sense that e&erything was in its right place, and in a way that " could ne&er comprehend. This wasnt like an intellectual game " was playing with myself. "t wasnt like !elie&ing that e&erything was perfect/ it was actually seeing this inherent perfection that was not at war with imperfection. " think that was the fundamental reali0ation. "t completely destroyed all of my old concepts a!out what perfection was. 7efore that, "d always seen perfection as some future state, or perfection was a!out getting rid of imperfection. This turned the whole thing on its head, !ecause now perfection was all a!out this total em!race of imperfection*this em!race of thought, sensations, feelings, sounds, and smells. (o " guess " 6ust remem!er falling to my knees and 6ust weeping. " think " 6ust wept e&erything out really. (o " think that experience*or that non.experience or whate&er you want to call it*" think that really !roke the !ack of something. That really was the !eginning of the end of my spiritual seeking. " think it really* its like my whole life turned around after that, really, !ecause life was no longer a!out me, Jeff, trying to get somewhere, or me, Jeff, looking for something, or me, Jeff, 6ust trying to !ecome enlightened. "t was all a!out this remem!ering that e&ery thought, e&ery sensation, e&ery feeling is on the deepest le&el sacred and accepted !y life, not !y me. "ts accepted and accepta!le to life. )nd " think from that point, you know, its not the, 2h after that point, all my suffering fell away and e&erything was perfect. " think we lo&e those awakening stories, !ut "&e ne&er met anyone who thats actually true for*they ha&e an awakening experience and then all their suffering falls away and it ne&er comes !ack. 24

" think what this experience*or this non.experience, or whate&er you want to call it*" think what it did do for me is it completely changed my relationship with suffering. 'hat " reali0ed is that !asically suffering was, at the most !asic le&el, suffering was and is the pushing away of life. (uffering is our attempt to escape whats here, to run away from whats here, to deny whats here. "ts a forgetting of who we really are. "ts a forgetting of this already accepted nature of experience- that thoughts, sensations, feelings, are on the deepest le&el already allowed in us, in this moment. (o the end of suffering*now " reali0e that the end of suffering wasnt some !ig e&ent that was going to happen one day. The end of suffering was actually contained in my present experience. "t was this remem!ering to turn towards whats here. (o then what " saw was that e&ery time " suffered, e&ery time " was struggling in my life, it was actually an in&itation. "t wasnt a mistake. "t wasnt a punishment. "t was an in&itation that in that moment, " was forgetting something. For years*this was a!out se&en, eight years ago " think*and " faced all kinds of things for the past se&en, eight years. You know, relationship struggles, and physical pain*my father is =uite ill at the moment*there&e !een all kinds of challenges. )nd challenges in !ecoming a teacher*!ecause that was unexpected*and !eing asked to go out there and talk to people and !eing asked all kinds of challenging =uestions, and opening myself up to all of that and not !ecoming Gor resisting the urge to !ecomeH some kind of enlightened guru whos going to sa&e the world. You know, really always checking myself that " wasnt !ecoming too attached of this idea of myself as a teacher and as some kind of sa&ior who had all the answers. (o "&e faced all kinds of challenges o&er the past few years, !ut in each and e&ery case, its really !een a case of staying with what was arising and staying with the sadness and staying with the pain, staying with the confusion and dou!t, and knowing that really this is all an in&itation. "ts all 6ust an in&itation to remem!er. " think that experience with the chair, that remem!ering of something so familiar, that really is still 6ust !asically there not matter what "m going through, no matter what experiences "m ha&ing. 5o matter how intense the wa&es of life !ecome, theres this deeper knowing that these wa&es are allowed to !e here. "ts like an honoring of life. "ts an honoring of the life that is mo&ing in me. " think that it seems to me, that thats what we forget as human !eings. You look in the world, and there seems to !e so much conflict and fear and stress. "t seems to me that all human 25

conflict and &iolence and suffering stems from this !asic, !asic, !asic, forgetting of who we are. 'e stop honoring life. 'hen we stop honoring life, we suffer. 'hen we stop seeing the sacredness in each and e&ery moment, and each and e&ery thought, sensation, feeling*thats the !irth of suffering. 7ut then, e&en our suffering is part of the in&itation to remem!er. 'e dont want to make suffering into this new enemy that we ha&e to destroy. (uffering is an in&itation. "f we can see it that way, you know1 'hen youre suffering, it certainly doesnt feel like an in&itation sometimes. Thats pro!a!ly true. You know, years ago when " was so depressed and couldnt get out of !ed some days !ecause life was so hea&y, it certainly didnt feel like an in&itation. 9ooking !ack, " reali0e now that it was. " guess !ack then, " 6ust couldnt see it. " saw the moment as something to !e fought and escaped, rather than seeing the moment as something to !e em!raced and met and stayed with. (o " think thats our ad&enture and our challenge. )nd thats our in&itation, is to stay. (tay. (tay. (tay. " mean in e&ery sense of the word, stay. 3eet. 3eet oursel&es, no matter how uncomforta!le it gets, or how intense the wa&es get, !ecause there could !e gold in those wa&es*you know, to mix metaphors. "f we can 6ust stay with our experience, e&en if the temptation is to run away, the urge is to run away*!ut the in&itation is stay, stay with the discomfort. (tay with the confusion. (tay with the dou!t, !ecause there may !e gold, there may !e gold dust in that dou!t. There may !e gold in that fear. There may !e gold in that sadness, !ut youll ne&er know if you turn away. Youll ne&er know. )nd who wants to*you know, " dont want to die ha&ing ne&er known. (o thats really what " share and what " talk a!out in my !ook, and in my meetings and retreats, is this staying with life, and how do we meet life1 ow do we stay with life1 ow do we say yes to life1

)nd may!e, as " suggest in my !ook, may!e its not e&en a =uestion of how, may!e its not e&en a =uestion of how to stay. 3ay!e its not e&en a =uestion of how to meet life. 3ay!e its not e&en a =uestion of how to allow this moment. 3ay!e on a deeper le&el, this moment is already !eing allowed. 3ay!e who we are is already allowing this. (o may!e its not e&en a =uestion of how. 3ay!e the how dissol&es. 3ay!e in that staying with discomfort, the how dissol&es, and we finally meet what we were ne&er a!le to meet. )nd may!e finally we can rest, actually, in discomfort. 'e can rest in our pain. 'e can rest in our sadness. owe&er strange and paradoxical and counter. 26

intuiti&e that sounds, !ut may!e thats where the true rest lies, is actually in e&erything that we thought we needed to run away from. 3ay!e thats where the true rest is hiding, the last place you would e&er look for it. You know1 TS: 5ow " ha&e to say, Jeff, " lo&e listening to you. " lo&e talking with you. )nd "m 6ust so honored and pleased that (ounds True is working with you and that we&e pu!lished this new !ook of yours. You know, its so wonderful to meet a young, you could say emerging spiritual teacher in that youre not well known yet, and " think that your work is so helpful. "t really !rings people down to the ground and to the core. (o " want to thank you, and well ha&e another con&ersation soon. This, " think, is a good place to stop for now. ow does that sound1

JF: 'ell, thank you so much Tami. "ts a real pleasure to meet you. TS: >xactly. "t does feel like a meeting. "&e !een speaking with Jeff Foster. es the author of a new !ook, its called The Deepest Acceptance: Radical Awakening in Ordinary Life, and Jeff has also created with (ounds True a six.session audio learning series on The Deepest Acceptance. Jeff, as always, wonderful to !e with you. You make it real. JF: Thank you Tami. TS: From (oundsTrue.com. 3any &oices. 2ne 6ourney. Thanks for listening.

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