MIND IS A MYTH

Disquieting Conversations with the Man Called U.G.

Edited by:
Terry Newland
Dinesh u!li"ations
Goa 403 101, India
1988
C#NT$NTS
Introduction : A Note At The Beginning
Chapter 1. The Certainty That Ba!t! "#erything
Chapter $. %ope I! &or To'orro( Not Today
Chapter 3. Not )no(ing I! *our Natura +tate
Chapter 4. There I! Nothing To ,nder!tand
Chapter -. .e %a#e Created Thi! /unge +ociety
Chapter 0. The Body A! A Cruci1e
Go!!ary
A N#T$ AT TH$ %$GINNING
%ere at the ee#enth hour i! a re2re!hing, radica and uncon#entiona apprai!a o2 the entire
hu'an enterpri!e. In hi! pre#iou! (or3, The 4y!ti5ue o2 "nighten'ent, ,.G. )ri!hna'urti too3
co!e ai' right 1et(een the eye! o2 the !tatu! 5uo, and 2ired a(ay. In thi! ne( 1oo3 he 'a3e!
e#en !horter (or3 o2 traditiona #aue! and thin3ing, o11ing grenade!, a! it (ere, into the #ery
citade! o2 our 'o!t cheri!hed 1eie2! and a!piration!. &or the !ee3er! o2 God, %appine!! or
"nighten'ent thi! 1oo3 ha! #ery itte to reco''end it. But 2or tho!e (ho gro( (eary o2 the
!earch and ha#e de#eoped a (e6te'pered !3eptici!', thi! itte #ou'e 'ay pro#e in#aua1e.
Thi! i! the !tory o2 a 'an (ho had it a66oo3!, (eath, cuture, 2a'e, tra#e, career66and ga#e it
a up to 2ind 2or hi'!e2 the an!(er to hi! 1urning 5ue!tion, 7I! there actuay anything i3e
2reedo', enighten'ent or i1eration 1ehind a the a1!traction! the reigion! ha#e thro(n at
u!87 %e ne#er got an an!(er.
There are no an!(er! to 5ue!tion! i3e that. ,.G. ca!t! phio!ophy into an entirey ne( 'od.
&or hi' phio!ophy i! neither the o#e o2 (i!do' nor the a#oidance o2 error, 1ut the
di!appearance o2 a phio!ophica 5ue!tion!. +ay! ,.G.:
.hen the 5ue!tion! you ha#e re!o#e the'!e#e! into 9u!t one 5ue!tion, your 5ue!tion, then
that 5ue!tion 'u!t detonate, e:pode and di!appear entirey, ea#ing 1ehind a !'oothy
2unctioning 1ioogica organi!', 2ree o2 the di!tortion and inter2erence o2 the !eparati#e thin3ing
!tructure.
,.G.;! 'e!!age i! a !hoc3ing one: (e are a on the (rong train, on the (rong trac3, going in
the (rong direction. .hen the ti'e co'e! to 2ace up to the cata!trophe o2 'an;! pre!ent cri!i!,
you (i 2ind ,.G. at the head o2 the ine, ready and a1e to de'oi!h the care2uy 1uit
a!!u'ption! !o dear and con!oing to u! a. A ,.G. !a'per: 'a3ing o#e i! (ar< cau!e6and6
e22ect i! the !hi11oeth o2 con2u!ed 'ind!< yoga and heath 2ood! de!troy the 1ody< the 1ody
and not the !ou i! i''orta< there i! no co''uni!' in =u!!ia, no 2reedo' in A'erica, and no
!pirituaity in India< !er#ice to 'an3ind i! utter !e2i!hne!!< /e!u! (a! another 'i!guided /e(<
and the Buddha (a! a crac3pot< 'utua terror, not o#e, (i !a#e 'an3ind< attending church
and going to the 1ar 2or a drin3 are identica< there i! nothing in!ide you 1ut 2ear< co''unication
i! i'po!!i1e 1et(een hu'an 1eing!< God, >o#e, %appine!!, the uncon!ciou!, death,
reincarnation and the !ou are non6e:i!tent 2ig'ent! o2 our rich i'agination< &reud i! the 2raud
o2 the $0th century, (hie /. )ri!hna'urti i! it! greate!t phoney.
The 'an;! 2eare!! (iingne!! to 1ru!h a!ide a the accu'uated 3no(edge and (i!do' o2 the
pa!t i! nothing !hort o2 !tupendou!. In thi! regard he i! a coo!!u!, a (a3ing and ta3ing 7+i#a7,
ready to de!troy a !o that i2e can 'o#e on (ith ne( #igor and 2reedo'. %i! ruthe!!,
unre'itting attac3 on our 'o!t cheri!hed idea! and in!titution! a'ount! to no e!! than an
in!urrection in con!ciou!ne!!< a corrupt !uper!tructure, tainted at the core, i! uncere'oniou!y
1o(n apart and nothing i! put in it! pace. Ta3ing great deight in the act o2 !heer annihiation,
,.G. o22er! hi! i!tener! nothing, 1ut rather, ta3e! a(ay a they ha#e !o a1oriou!y and
un(ittingy accu'uated. I2 the od 'u!t 1e de!troyed 1e2ore the ne( can 1e, then ,.G. i!,
indeed, the har1inger o2 a ne( 1eginning 2or 'an.
+ociety, (hich, a! Adou! %u:ey pointed out, i! organi?ed o#ee!!ne!!, can 'a3e no pace 2or
a 2ree 'an i3e ,.G. )ri!hna'urti. %e doe! not 2it into any 3no(n !ocia !tructure, !piritua or
!ecuar. +ociety, (hich u!e! it! 'e'1er! a! a 'ean! to en!ure it! o(n continuity, cannot hep
1ut 1e threatened 1y a 'an i3e ,.G., a de#out di!e!ta1i!h'entarian (ho ha! nothing to
protect, no 2oo(ing to !ati!2y, no intere!t in re!pecta1iity, and (ho ha1ituay !pea3! the 'o!t
di!iu!ioning truth! no 'atter (hat the con!e5uence!.
,.G. i! a ;2ini!hed; 'an. In hi' there i! no !earch, and there2ore no de!tiny. %i! i2e no(
con!i!t! o2 a !erie! o2 di!9ointed e#ent!. There i! no center to hi! i2e, no one ;conducting; hi!
i2e, no inner !hado(, no ;gho!t in the 'achine;. .hat i! there i! a ca', !'oothy 2unctioning,
highy inteigent and re!pon!i#e 1ioogica 'achine, nothing 'ore. @ne oo3! in #ain 2or
e#idence o2 a !e2, p!yche or ego< there i! ony the !i'pe 2unctioning o2 a !en!iti#e organi!'. It
i! itte (onder that !uch a ;2ini!hed; 'an (oud di!card the 1ana, tarni!hed co''onaitie! o2
!cience, reigion, poitic!, and phio!ophy and in!tead 1ear directy into the heart o2 'atter!,
pre!enting hi! ca!e !i'py, 2eare!!y, 2orce2uy, and (ithout corro1oration, to any (ho (i!h to
i!ten.
&.
The !u19ect o2 thi! (or3, 4r. ,ppauri Gopaa )ri!hna'urti A1B (a! 1orn o2 'idde6ca!!
Brah'in parent! on the 'orning o2 /uy 9, 1918, in the #iage o2 4a!uipata', +outh India. A!
2ar a! (e 3no( there (ere no pecuiar e#ent! !urrounding hi! 1irth, cee!tia or other(i!e. %i!
'other died o2 puerpera 2e#er !e#en day! a2ter gi#ing 1irth to her 2ir!t and ony chid. ,pon her
death 1ed !he i'pored the 'aterna grand2ather o2 the 1oy to ta3e !pecia care o2 hi', adding
that !he (a! certain that he had a great and i'portant de!tiny 1e2ore hi'.
The grand2ather too3 thi! prediction, and hi! daughter;! re5ue!t, #ery !eriou!y, and #o(ed to
gi#e the 1oy a the ad#antage! o2 a (eathy Brah'in 7prince7. The 2ather !oon re'arried,
ea#ing ,.G. to 1e cared 2or 1y the grandparent!. The grand2ather (a! an ardent Theo!ophi!t
and 3ne( /. )ri!hna'urti, Annie Be!ant, Co. Acott, and the other eader! o2 the Theo!ophica
+ociety. ,.G. (a! to 'eet a the!e peope in hi! youth and (a! to !pend 'o!t o2 hi! 2or'ati#e
year! around Adyar, the (ord head5uarter! o2 the Theo!ophica +ociety, in 4adra!, India. ,.G.
!ay! o2 that ti'e: 74y grand2ather 3ept a !ort o2 open hou!e into (hich (ere in#ited tra#eing
'on3! and renunciate!, reigiou! !choar!, pundit!, #ariou! guru!, 'ahat'a!, and !(a'i!.7
There (ere ende!! di!cu!!ion! on phio!ophy, co'parati#e reigion!, occuti!', and
'etaphy!ic!. "#ery (a o2 the hou!e (a! co#ered (ith 2a'ou! %indu and Theo!ophica
eader!, e!peciay /. )ri!hna'urti. The 1oy;! chidhood (a!, in !hort, !teeped in reigiou! ore,
phio!ophica di!cour!e, and the in2uence o2 #ariou! !piritua per!onage!. A thi! appeaed to
the 1oy greaty. %e e#en 1egged one tra#eing guru, (ho arri#ed (ith a huge retinue o2 ca'e!,
di!cipe! and attendant!, to ta3e hi' a(ay (ith hi' !o that he 'ight 1eco'e a !tudent o2 hi!
!piritua teaching. The 1oy ,.G. (a! ta3en 1y the grand2ather a o#er India to #i!it hoy pace!
and peope, ashramas, retreat!, and center! o2 earning. %e !pent !e#en !u''er! in the
%i'aaya! !tudying ca!!ica yoga (ith a 2a'ou! adept, +(a'i +i#ananda.
It (a! in the!e eary year! o2 hi! i2e that ,.G. 1egan to 2ee that 7!o'ething (a! (rong
!o'e(here,7 re2erring to the (hoe reigiou! tradition into (hich he had 1een i''er!ed a'o!t
2ro' the 1eginning. %i! yoga 'a!ter, a !trict and !e26righteou! 2igure o2 authority, (a! !tarted
1y ,.G. (hen the atter 2ound hi' de#ouring !o'e hot pic3e! 2or1idden 2or yogi! 1ehind co!ed
door!. ,.G., 9u!t a 1oy, !aid to hi'!e2, 7%o( can thi! 'an decei#e hi'!e2 and other!,
pretending to 1e one thing (hie doing another87 %e ga#e up hi! yoga practice!, 'aintaining a
heathy !3eptici!' to(ard! a thing! !piritua on into hi! aduthood.
4ore and 'ore he (anted to 7do thing! my (ay,7 5ue!tioning the authority o2 other! o#er hi'.
Brea3ing 2ro' the tradition! o2 hi! Bra'inic 1ac3ground, he tore 2ro' hi! 1ody the !acred
thread, !y'1o o2 hi! reigiou! heritage. %e 1eca'e a young cynic, re9ecting the !piritua
con#ention! o2 hi! cuture and 5ue!tioning e#erything 2or hi'!e2. %e di!payed e!! and e!!
re!pect 2or the reigiou! in!titution! and cu!to'! thought !o i'portant 1y hi! 2a'iy and
co''unity. In hi' de#eoped a heathy di!dain 2or hi! reigiou! inheritance, a di!dain (hich (a!
to de#eop into an acute !en!e o2 (hat he (a! ater to ca 7the hypocri!y o2 the hoy 1u!ine!!.7
%i! grand'other !aid o2 hi' that he 7had the heart o2 a 1utcher.7 A thi! ao(ed hi' ti'e to
de#eop the tre'endou! courage and in!ight nece!!ary to 1ru!h a!ide the entire p!ychoogica
and genetic content o2 hi! pa!t.
By the age o2 t(enty6one ,.G. had 1eco'e a 5ua!i6athei!t, !tudying !ecuar (e!tern
phio!ophy and p!ychoogy at the ,ni#er!ity o2 4adra!. At thi! 9uncture he (a! a!3ed 1y a
2riend to go (ith hi' to #i!it the 2a'ou! 7+age o2 Arunachaa7, Bhaga#an +ri =a'ana 4ahar!hi,
at hi! ashram at Tiru#anna'aai, not 2ar !outh o2 4adra!. In the year 1939 ,.G. reuctanty
(ent. %e (a! con#inced 1y that ti'e that a hoy 'en (ere phonie! and (ere ta3ing peope 2or
a ride. But to hi! !urpri!e =a'ana 4ahar!hi (a! di22erent. The Bhaga#an, a !erene, doe6eyed
!age o2 the highe!t (i!do' and integrity, coud not 1ut 'a3e a !trong i'pre!!ion on the young
,.G. %e rarey !po3e to tho!e (ho approached hi' (ith 5ue!tion!. ,.G. approached the
Bhaga#an (ith !o'e trepidation and 'i!gi#ing!, putting to the 'a!ter three 5ue!tion!:
7I! there,7 a!3ed ,.G., 7anything i3e enighten'ent87
7*e!, there i!,7 repied the 'a!ter.
7Are there any e#e! to it87
The Bhaga#an repied, 7No, no e#e! are po!!i1e. It i! a one thing. "ither you are there or you
are not there at a.7
&inay ,.G. a!3ed, 7Thi! thing caed enighten'ent, can you gi#e it to 'e87
>oo3ing the !eriou! young 'an in the eye! he repied, 7*e!, I can gi#e it, but can you take it?7
&ro' that ti'e on ,.G. (a! haunted 1y thi! repy and reente!!y 5ueried hi'!e2, 7What i! it
that I can;t ta3e87 %e re!o#ed then and there that (hate#er the 4ahar!hi (a! ta3ing a1out, he
7coud ta3e it.7 %e (a! ater to !ay that thi! encounter (a! to change the cour!e o2 hi! i2e and
7put 'e 1ac3 on the trac3.7 %e ne#er #i!ited the Bhaga#an again. =a'ana 4ahar!hi died,
incidentay, in 19-1, o2 cancer, and i! regarded a! one o2 the greate!t !age! India ha! e#er
produced.
By hi! 'id6t(entie! !e: had 1eco'e a pro1e' 2or ,.G. Athough inter'ittenty #o(ing to 2orego
!e: and 'arriage in de2erence to the i2e o2 a reigiou! cei1ate, he e#entuay rea!oned that !e:
(a! a natura dri#e, that it (a! not (i!e to !uppre!! it, and that, anyho(, !ociety had pro#ided
egiti'ate in!titution! to 2u2i thi! urge. %e cho!e a! hi! 1ride one o2 three young 1eauti2u
Brah'in (o'en hi! grand'other had !eected 2or hi' a! po!!i1e !uita1e 'ate!. %e (a! to
!ay ater, 7I a(o3e the 'orning a2ter 'y (edding night and 3ne( (ithout dou1t that I had 'ade
the 1igge!t 'i!ta3e o2 'y i2e.7 %e re'ained 'arried 2or !e#enteen year!, 2athering 2our
chidren. &ro' the #ery 1eginning he (anted out o2 the 'arriage, 1ut !o'eho( chidren 3ept
co'ing and the 'arried i2e continued. %i! ode!t !on, Ca!ant, ca'e do(n (ith poio, and ,.G.
decided to 'o#e the 2a'iy to the ,nited +tate! !o that the 1oy coud recei#e the 1e!t
treat'ent. In the proce!! he !pent neary a hi! 2ortune that he had recei#ed 2ro' hi!
grand2ather. %i! hope (a! that he coud get !o'e higher education 2or hi! (i2e, 2ind her a 9o1,
and put her in an independent po!ition !o that he coud go on aone. Thi! he did, 2inding her a
9o1 (ith the .ord Boo3 "ncycopedia. By thi! ti'e hi! 2ortune had run out, and he (a! 2ed up
(ith 1eing a pu1ic !pea3er A2ir!t on 1eha2 o2 the Theo!ophica +ociety and ater a! an
independent pat2or' oratorB, hi! 'arriage (a! 2ini!hed, and he (a! o!ing intere!t in the
!trugge to 1e !o'e1ody in thi! (ord. By hi! eary 2ortie! he (a! 1ro3e, aone, and a 1ut
2orgotten 1y hi! 2riend! and a!!ociate!. %e 1egan (andering, 2ir!t in Ne( *or3 City, then in
>ondon, (here he (a! reduced to !pending hi! day! in the >ondon >i1rary to e!cape the
"ngi!h (inter cod, and gi#ing Indian coo3ing e!!on! 2or a itte 'oney. Then on to Dari!,
(here hi! (andering! continued. @2 that period in hi! i2e ,.G. (a! ater to !ay,
I (a! i3e a ea2 1o(n a1out 1y a 2ic3e (ind, (ith neither pa!t nor 2uture, neither 2a'iy nor
career, nor any !ort o2 !piritua 2u2i'ent. I (a! !o(y o!ing 'y (i po(er to do anything. I (a!
not re9ecting or renouncing the (ord< it (a! 9u!t dri2ting a(ay 2ro' 'e and I (a! una1e and
un(iing to hod onto it.
Bro3e and aone, he (andered to Gene#a (here he had e2t a 2e( 2ranc! in an od account,
enough po!!i1y to get hi' 1y 2or a 2e( day!. Then that itte 'oney ran out, hi! rent 1eca'e
due, and he (a! e2t (ith no(here to turn. %e decided to go to the Indian Con!uate there in
Gene#a and a!3 to 1e repatriated to India. 7I had no 'oney, no 2riend!, and no (i e2t. I thought
that at ea!t they can;t turn 'e out o2 India. I a', a2ter a, a citi?en. Derhap! I can 9u!t !it under
a 1anyan tree !o'e(here and 'ay1e !o'eone (i 2eed 'e.7 +o, at the age o2 2orty62i#e, a
co'pete 2aiure in the eye! o2 the (ord, pennie!! and aone, he (a3ed into the Con!uate and
1egged to 1e returned to hi! ho'eand. %e had itte choice. Thi! (a! to 1e a turning point in hi!
i2e.
'.
,.G. (a3ed into the Indian Con!uate o22ice in Gene#a and 1egan teing hi! !ad !tory to the
con!u there. The 'ore he ta3ed, the 'ore 2a!cinated the con!u 1eca'e. +oon the (hoe
o22ice (a! in a hu!hed !ience i!tening to hi! re'ar3a1e tae. A !ecretary6tran!ator in the
o22ice, Caentine de )er#en A$B, (a! i!tening intenty. Aready in her eary !i:tie!, !he had 'uch
e:perience o2 the (ord, and too3 pity on the !trange chari!'atic 'an. No one in the o22ice
3ne( (hat to do (ith hi', !o Caentine #ounteered to put hi' up in her pace 2or a 2e( day!
unti the con!u coud 2igure out !o'ething.
Caentine, no !tranger to ad#er!ity her!e2, !y'pathi?ed (ith the (andering, de!titute 'an, and
!oon o22ered hi' a ho'e in "urope. +he had a !'a inheritance and pen!ion (hich (a!
!u22icient 2or the' 1oth. ,.G., oath to return to India and 2ace hi! 2a'iy, 2riend!, and poor
pro!pect!, grate2uy accepted the o22er. The ne:t 2our year! A190360EB (ere hacyon day! 2or
the'. +he e2t her 9o1 at the con!uate and i#ed 5uiety (ith ,.G., 'o#ing (ith the (eather to
Itay, the !outh o2 &rance, Dari! and +(it?erand. >ater they 1egan !pending their (inter! in
!outh India (here thing! (ere reati#ey ine:pen!i#e and the (eather 'ore 1enign. Furing
the!e year! ,.G., a! he ater e:pained, did nothing. 7I !ept, read the Ti'e 4aga?ine, ate, and
(ent 2or (a3! (ith Caentine or aone. That (a! a.7 %e (a! in a !ort o2 incu1ation period. %i!
!earch had neary co'e to an end. %e ne#er 'entioned to Caentine the occut po(er!, !piritua
e:perience!, and reigiou! 1ac3ground (hich con!tituted !o 'uch o2 hi! i2e. They 9u!t i#ed
!i'py and 5uiety a! pri#ate 'igrating hou!ehoder!.
They too3 to !pending their !u''er 'onth! in the con#erted attic o2 a 4006year6od chaet in the
char'ing +(i!! #iage o2 +aanen, in the Berne!e @1erand. &or !o'e rea!on /. )ri!hna'urti
decided to hod a !erie! o2 ta3! and gathering! in a huge tent erected on the out!3irt! o2 the
!a'e itte to(n. =eigiou! !ee3er!, yogi!, phio!opher!, and inteectua! 2ro' 1oth the ea!t and
the (e!t 1egan !ho(ing up in the !'a to(n to attend the )ri!hna'urti ta3!, to gi#e and ta3e
yoga in!truction!, and con2er on 'atter! !piritua and phio!ophica. ,.G. and Caentine 3ept a
re!pect2u di!tance, not (i!hing to 1eco'e part o2 the gro(ing !cene (hich 1egan to re!e'1e
'ore and 'ore a circu!.
In thi! en#iron'ent ,.G. approached hi! 2orty6ninth 1irthday. The )o('ara Nadi, a 2a'ou! and
re!pected a!troogica 7record7 in 4adra!, had ong ago predicted that ,.G. (oud undergo a
pro2ound tran!2or'ation on hi! 2orty6ninth 1irthday. A! the day approached, !trange,
unaccounta1e thing! 1egan occurring to ,.G. +o'ething radica and uttery une:pected (a!
a1out to happen to hi'.
(.
In hi! thirty62i2th year ,.G. 1egan to get recurring pain2u headache!, and, not 3no(ing (hat to
do, 1egan ta3ing arge a'ount! o2 co22ee and a!pirin to cope (ith the e:cruciating pain. At thi!
ti'e a!o he 1egan to oo3 younger in!tead o2 oder. By the ti'e he (a! 2orty6nine he oo3ed to
1e a 'an o2 !e#enteen or eighteen year!. A2ter the age o2 2orty6nine he 1egan ageing once
again, athough he !ti appear! 'uch younger than hi! pre!ent !i:ty6!e#en year!. Bet(een
headache! he (oud go through e:traordinary e:perience! (here, a! he ater de!cri1ed it, 7I 2et
heade!! i3e 'y head (a! 'i!!ing.7 Ari!ing !i'utaneou!y (ith the!e !trange pheno'ena
(ere the !o6caed occut po(er!, or (hat ,.G. re2er! to a! 'an;! natura po(er! and in!tinct!.
A per!on coud (a3 into the roo' and ,.G., ha#ing ne#er 'et that per!on, coud !ee hi! entire
pa!t and hi!tory a! though reading a i#ing auto1iography. %e coud gance at a !tranger;! pa'
and in!tanty 3no( their de!tiny. A the occut po(er! 1egan to 'ani2e!t the'!e#e! in hi'
graduay a2ter the age o2 thirty62i#e. 7I ne#er u!ed the!e po(er! 2or anything< they (ere 9u!t
there. I 3ne( they (ere o2 no great i'portance and 9u!t et the' 1e.7
Thing! 3ept 1uiding (ithin hi', and ,.G., concerned !he 'ight concude that he (a! 'ad,
ne#er 'entioned a thing a1out the!e e:traordinary de#eop'ent! to Caentine, or anyone 2or
that 'atter. A! hi! 2orty6ninth 1irthday approached he 1egan to ha#e (hat the ater re2erred to
a! 7panora'ic #i!ion,7 a (ay o2 !eeing in (hich the 2ied o2 #i!ion (rapped around the open
eye! in a neary 3006degree !pread, (hie the #ie(er or o1!er#er di!appeared entirey and
o19ect! 'o#ed right through the head and 1ody. The entire organi!', un3no(n to ,.G. at the
ti'e, (a! e#identy preparing it!e2 2or !o'e caa'ity or tran!2or'ation o2 i''en!e proportion!.
,.G. did nothing.
@n the 'orning o2 /uy the 9th, 190E, hi! 2orty6ninth 1irthday, ,.G. (ent (ith a 2riend to hear /.
)ri!hna'urti A3B gi#e a pu1ic ta3 in a arge tent on the out!3irt! o2 +aanen, the #iage in (hich
,.G. and Caentine had 1een i#ing 2or !o'e ti'e. ,.G. had contracted (ith a pu1i!her to (rite
hi! auto1iography. .hie (or3ing on the 1oo3, ,.G. ca'e to the part de!cri1ing hi! a!!ociation
(ith /. )ri!hna'urti. %e did not re'e'1er 'uch o2 (hat he had 2et to(ard! the edery re#ered
7.ord Teacher7 o2 the Theo!ophica +ociety. %e had not had contact (ith /. )ri!hna'urti 2or
'any year! and had no de2inite opinion a1out the 'an. +o he decided to go to hear the 'orning
ta3 1y /. )ri!hna'urti to !ort o2 7re2re!h 'y 'e'ory,7 a! he put it. 4id(ay through the ta3,
,.G., i!tening to /. )ri!hna'urti;! de!cription o2 a 2ree 'an, !uddeny reai?ed that it (a!
hi'!e2 (ho (a! 1eing de!cri1ed. 7.hat the he a' I doing i!tening to !o'eone de!cri1e ho( I
a' 2unctioning87 &reedo' in con!ciou!ne!! 1eca'e at that 'o'ent no onger !o'ething 7o#er
there7, or 7out there7 , 1ut !i'py the (ay he (a! aready phy!ioogicay 2unctioning at that #ery
in!tant. Thi! !tunned ,.G. !o !trongy that he e2t the tent in a !o'e(hat da?ed !tate o2 'ind
and (a3ed aone to(ard! hi! chaet on the other !ide o2 the #aey. A! he approached hi!
chaet he !topped to re!t on a !'a 1ench (hich o#eroo3ed the 1eauti2u ri#er! and 'ountain!
o2 +aanen Caey.
.hie !itting on the 1ench aone, oo3ing at the green #aey and rugged pea3! o2 the @1erand,
it occurred to hi':
I ha#e !earched e#ery(here to 2ind an an!(er to 'y 5ue!tion, ;I! there enighten'ent8; , 1ut
ha#e ne#er 5ue!tioned the !earch it!e2. Becau!e I ha#e a!!u'ed that goa, enighten'ent,
e:i!t!, I ha#e had to !earch, and it i! the !earch it!e2 (hich ha! 1een cho3ing 'e and 3eeping
'e out o2 'y natura !tate. There i! no !uch thing a! !piritua or p!ychoogica enighten'ent
1ecau!e there i! no !uch thing a! !pirit or p!yche at a. I ha#e 1een a da'n 2oo a 'y i2e,
!earching 2or !o'ething (hich doe! not e:i!t. 4y !earch i! at an end.7
At that 'o'ent a the 5ue!tion! di!appeared and ,.G. cea!ed to act any onger #ia the
!eparati#e thought !tructure. A 1it o2 energy entered hi! 1rain through one o2 the !en!e! and
(a! >"&T A>@N". A 1it o2 energy e2t aone to #i1rate 2reey, untran!ated, uncen!ored, and
unu!ed 1y a !eparati#e, pree'pti#e thought !tructure i! a dangerou! thing. It i! the #ery
!u1!tance o2 inner anarchy. Being untouched 1y thought, (hich i! ti'e, it ha! no(here to go
and can 2ind no e!cape 2ro' the !tine!!. A tre'endou! 'oecuar pre!!ure i! 1uit up that can
ha#e reea!e ony in an e:po!ion. That e:po!ion cau!ed (ithin ,.G. the coap!e o2 the entire
thought !tructure, and (ith it the notion o2 an independent !e2 and an oppo!ing !ociety. %e had
reached the end o2 the corridor o2 oppo!ite!< cau!e and e22ect cea!ed atogether. The caa'ity
reached right do(n to the e#e o2 the ce! and chro'o!o'e!. It (a! phy!ioogica, not
p!ychoogica, in nature. It i'pie! that at the end o2 the 3no(n i! the 7Big Bang7.
).
,.G., !itting 1e(idered and 2a11erga!ted on the itte 1ench, oo3ed do(n at hi! 1ody. But thi!
ti'e he oo3ed (ithout the cutura 1ac3ground that identi2ied hi' a! 7'ae, 7Indian7, 7Brah'in7,
7!ee3er7, 7(ord tra#eer7, 7pu1ic !pea3er7, 7ci#ii?ed gente'an7, 7#irtuou! per!on7, etc. !eeing
in!tead a (ar'61ooded 'a''a, a ca', har'e!!, 2uy6cothed G'on3ey;. The !ate had 1een
'iracuou!y (iped cean, cuture and the !e2 had 1een uttery undone in a t(in3ing, and (hat
(a! e2t (a! a grace2u, !i'pe, (e6'annered Gape;, a(are, inteigent, and 2ree o2 a preten!e
and !e26a1!orption. Not ha#ing the 2oggie!t notion o2 (hat (a! happening to hi', he (a3ed the
2e( 2eet to hi! chaet and ay do(n.
.ithin hour! he 2et the contraction! at #ariou! ocation! on hi! 1ody66'o!ty in the 1rain and at
the ocation! o2 the ner#ou! pe:u!e! and certain gand!66!ac3en. The 1ody, no onger cho3ed
and !uppre!!ed 1y the accu'uated 3no(edge o2 the pa!t Athe !eparati#e thought !tructureB,
1egan a 2u6!cae 'utation. >arge !(eing! appeared at #ariou! !ite!, incuding the pituitary,
pinea, and thy'u! gand!, the center o2 the 2orehead, and the anterior o2 the throat. The eye!
!topped 1in3ing and tear duct!, hereto2ore dor'ant, !tarted to 2unction, u1ricating eye! in a
ne( (ay. Cariou! kundalini e:perience! 'ani2e!ted the'!e#e!, athough ,.G. re2er! to the!e
in purey phy!ioogica ter'!. A !ort o2 co'1u!tion or 7ioni?ation7 o2 the ce! occurred on a daiy
1a!i!, rai!ing the 1ody te'perature to incredi1e height! and thro(ing o22 a !ort o2 a!h (hich
coud ea!iy 1e !een on hi! 1ody. /u!t a! a co'puter 7goe! do(n7, ,.G. 7(ent do(n7 !e#era
ti'e! a day, !ipping into a death !tate (here the heart1eat (oud neary cea!e, the 1ody;!
te'perature (oud drop to a e#e 9u!t !u22icient to !u!tain i2e, and the entire 1ody (oud get
#ery !ti22 and 'ori1und. /u!t 1e2ore the 1ody reached a co'pete cinica death !tate, it (oud
!o'eho( 73ic3 on7 again, the pu!e (oud 5uic3en, the te'perature (oud ri!e to nor'a, and
!o( !tretching 'o#e'ent!, !i'iar to a 1a1y;!, (oud 'ani2e!t the'!e#e!. .ithin 'inute! he
(oud 1e 1ac3 to 2unctioning nor'ay.
Thi! e:traordinary 'utation ,.G. ha! co'e to re2er to a! hi! 7caa'ity7. It (a! a tre'endou!
!hoc3 to the 1ody to ha#e it! !uppre!!or, the !eparati#e p!ychic !tructure, coap!e and entirey
di!appear. There (a! no onger a p!ychic coordinator coating, co'paring and 'atching a the
!en!ory input !o that it coud u!e the 1ody and it! reation! 2or it! o(n !eparati#e continuity,
"#ent! 1eca'e di!9ointed and unreated. The !en!e!, 2reed 2ro' the 7pae ca!t o2 thought7
1egan their independent career!, and the u!e2u content o2 thought and cuture dropped a! it
(ere into the 1ac3ground, to 1e 1rought 2orth into con!ciou!ne!!, unencu'1ered 1y any
!enti'enta or e'otiona o#ertone!, ony (hen an o19ecti#e de'and i! 'ade upon the', and
2or the !'ooth 2unctioning o2 the 'ateria organi!'. The hand! and 2orear'! changed their
!tructure, !o that no( hi! hand! 2ace 1ac3(ard in!tead o2 to the !ide!. %i! 1ody i! no(
her'aphroditic, a per2ect union o2 ani'u!6ani'a, and en9oy! a !e:uaity the i3e! o2 (hich (e
can ony gue!!. %i! right !ide re!pond! to (o'en, hi! e2t 'ore to 'en. The natura 2o( o2
energy through hi! 1ody, no onger 1oc3ed and di!!ipated 1y contracti#e thought, 2o(! right up
2ro' the !pine through the 1rain, and out the top o2 the head. %i! 1ioogica !en!iti#ity Aand
there i! no other 3indB i! !o acute that the 'o#e'ent! o2 cee!tia 1odie!, e!peciay the 'oon,
ha#e a #i!i1y !trong e22ect on hi'. 7To 1e a22ectionate doe! not 'ean that you are
de'on!trati#e or i3e to co'pu!i#ey touch other!, 1ut, rather, that you are a22ected 1y
"C"=*T%ING,7 he !ay!.
The!e incredi1e phy!ioogica change! continued on 2or year!. %e (a! !o 1e(idered 1y (hat
had happened to hi' that he did not !pea3 2or a year a2ter the caa'ity. %e had to practicay
earn to thin3 and ta3 a o#er again, !o co'pete (a! hi! 'utation. A2ter a year or !o he had
regained 'o!t o2 hi! co''unicati#e po(er!, yet he did not !pea3. 7.hat i! there to !ay a2ter a
thing i3e thi!87 he a!3ed hi'!e2. @ne day the an!(er ca'e to hi' in a 2a!h, 7I .I>> +A* IT
"HACT>* T%" .A* IT I+7. ":cept 2or a year;! 1rea3 in the ate ;E0;!, he ha! 1een !pea3ing
tiree!!y e#er !ince. @2 a thi! ,.G. no( !ay!:
I did not 3no( (hat (a! happening to 'e. I had no re2erence point at a. +o'eho( I died and
ca'e 1ac3 to i2e 2ree o2 'y pa!t, and than3 God 2or that. Thi! thing happened (ithout 'y
#oition and F"+DIT" 'y reigiou! 1ac3ground, and that i! a 'irace. It cannot 1e u!ed a! a
'ode and 1e dupicated 1y other!.
*.
.hat ,.G. i! de!cri1ing in the!e page!66hi! natura !tate66doe! not repre!ent a ne( (ay o2
i#ing, 2or i#ing i! 2or u! actuay a (ay o2 getting (hat (e (ant. I2 (e change, it i! ony to get
(hat (e (ant in a di22erent (ay. %ere, (ith ,.G., a (anting 1eyond 1a!ic !ur#i#a and
procreation, i! (iped out. @ther than the !i'pe 1odiy nece!!itie!, (anting thing! 2ro' other
peope cea!e!. A>> D+*C%@>@GICA> ANF +DI=IT,A> .ANT+ A=" .IT%@,T
&@,NFATI@N. Thi! i! ,.G.;! di!ar'ing 'e!!age: To !ee3 through hi' any p!ychoogica
!ati!2action or any !ort o2 !piritua gain, i! to 'i!! the point entirey.
&or the!e rea!on! ,.G. ha! N@T 2ounded !choo!, 7ashramas7, or 'editation center!. %e ha!
no teaching to protect or di!!e'inate. %e ha! no 2oo(ing, gi#e! no pu1ic ta3!, 'ount! no
pat2or'!, (rite! no !tricture!, o22er! no practice or sadhana o2 any 3ind, and o22er! no !oution!
to 'an;! 'ounting pro1e'!. %e i! a pri#ate citi?en, i#ing in a hou!e 1y the !ide o2 the road,
ta3ing in2or'ay (ith tho!e (ho, 2or (hate#er rea!on, appear at hi! door. No one i! a!3ed to
co'e and no one i! a!3ed to ea#e. %i! i2e and teaching i! (rit on (ater, and the atte'pt 1y
anyone to !a#e, puri2y or in!titutionai?e hi! 'e!!age i! a denia o2 a he i! !o 2eare!!y !aying,
and, there2ore, a1!urd.
7I ha#e no 'e!!age 2or 'an3ind,7 !ay! ,.G. 7But o2 one thing I a' certain, I cannot hep you
!o#e your 1a!ic die''a or !a#e you 2ro' !e26deception, and I& I CAN;T %">D *@,, N@ @N"
CAN.7
The editor hope! that thi! #ou'e o2 con#er!ation! 'ay !er#e, aong (ith the 2ir!t o2 ,.G.;!
1oo3!, 7The 4y!ti5ue o2 "nighten'ent,7, to introduce reader! to an unco''on 'an in an
unco''on ti'e, a 'an !o ordinary and uncorrupted that he re2u!ed the e:ated roe o2
redee'er or (ord teacher, and in!tead point! out, (ith indo'ita1e courage and
unco'pro'i!ing integrity, the ony rea !a#ior o2 'an66that parado:ica 2reedo' (hich i! at once
1oth unco'paining !e26reiance ANF un2rightened !e26a1andon'ent.
Terry Newland
Mill Valley,
California
ecember, !"#$
N#T$S+
A1B The 2a'iy na'e i! ,ppauri, (hie the gi#en na'e i! )ri!hna'urti, gi#en to hi' a2ter hi!
grand2ather;! na'e, and (hich 'ean!, in +an!3rit 7the #ery i'age o2 )ri!hna. It i! a co''on
na'e 2or 1oy! in !outh India and indicate! no 2a'iy reation!hip 1et(een hi' and the 2a'ou!
teacher and author, /. )ri!hna'urti.
A$B Caentine (a! a re'ar3a1e (o'an in her o(n right. Born in +(it?erand in Augu!t, 1901,
the daughter o2 a 2a'ou! +(i!! 1rain !urgeon Aa2ter (ho' the de)er#en;! +yndro'e i!
na'edB, !he cro!!ed the +ahara Fe!ert on a 'otorcyce, (a! the 2ir!t (o'an to (ear pant! in
Dari!, (a! the 2ir!t (o'an 'o#ie producer in &rance, and tried Aun!ucce!!2uyB to 9oin the 2ight
again!t &ranco;! 2a!ci!t! in +pain. At thi! (riting !he ha! 1een ,.G.;! 2riend and 2eo( tra#eer
2or t(enty6three year!. +he i! 84 year! od at thi! (riting and !ti tra#e! a o#er the (ord (ith
,.G. 66a rea trooper.
A3B There !ee'! to 1e !o'e 3ind o2 connection 1et(een ,.G. and the 2a'ou! phio!opher
/iddu )ri!hna'urti. Born in 4ay, 189-, not 2ar 2ro' ,.G.;! pace o2 1irth, in the +tate o2 Andhra
Drade!h, !outh India, /. )ri!hna'urti (a! 7di!co#ered7 1y Annie Be!ant, the (e63no(n
Dre!ident o2 the Theo!ophica +ociety. +he and other! in the +ociety 1eca'e con#inced that
the itte Brah'in 1oy (a! the ne( (ord teacher, or gadget6guru. +etting hi' up at the head o2
a (ord(ide organi?ation dedicated to propagation o2 hi! teaching, he (a! !oon tra#eing the
(ord ta3ing on hi! genera the'e o2 indi#idua 2reedo' through a(arene!!, un1ia!ed in5uiry,
and inten!e !crutiny o2 (hat i!. %e apparenty under(ent !o'e !ort o2 pro2ound p!ycho6phy!ica
tran!2or'ation in hi! eary thirtie! in @9ai, Cai2ornia. %e !oon therea2ter 1ro3e, at ea!t 2or'ay,
(ith the Theo!ophica +ociety and the @rder o2 the +tar, the principa organi?ation! that
e'1raced and pro'oted hi! 'e!!iahhood, and 1egan a ne( i2e a! a pri#ate citi?en. &or 'any
year! he i#ed 5uiety, coun!eing indi#idua!, gi#ing a 2e( in2or'a ta3!, and participating in
educationa (or3. In the ate ;-0;! hi! 1oo3! 7The &ir!t and >a!t &reedo'7 and 7Co''entarie!
o2 >i#ing7 created a 'inor !en!ation and a 'uch arger and 'ore generai?ed 2oo(ing. %e
re9ected any eader!hip roe, a! (e a! atte'pt! to in!titutionai?e hi! teaching, to hi!
un5uai2ied good credit. In the ate ;00;! he and other! aunched the huge )ri!hna'urti
&oundation, head5uartered in Broc3(ood Dar3, "ngand. %e no( head! a (ord(ide reigiou!
corporation, pu1i!hing 1oo3! and tape!, running !choo!, and conducting gathering!.
The !i'iaritie! 1et(een ,.G. )ri!hna'urti and /. )ri!hna'urti are, according to the 2or'er,
iu!ory. 7@ther than our na'e!,7 !ay! ,.G., 7I don;t thin3 (e ha#e anything in co''on.7 They
(ere 1oth 1orn into Brah'in, Theo!ophica, !outh Indian 2a'iie!< they 1oth (ere ong
a!!ociated (ith the Theo!ophica co''unity, e!peciay at Adyar 4adra!, the reigion;! (ord
head5uarter!< they 1oth u!e !i'iar anguage in denouncing the pre#aiing theoogica and
p!ychoogica a!!u'ption! o2 1oth the ea!t and the (e!t< they i#e in the !a'e pace! in the
(ord at appro:i'atey the !a'e ti'e< they 1oth, (hether they appro#e or not, ha#e a de#oted
2oo(ing, each indu1ita1y con#inced that their 'an i! uni5ue a'ong teacher!.
I do not 3no( /. )ri!hna'urti;! thought!, i2 he ha! any, on ,.G. But the atter;! #ie( o2 the
2or'er 'ay 1e o2 intere!t to tho!e (i!hing to contra!t the!e t(o po(er2u and uni5ue 2igure!. In
hi! youth, ,.G. (a! !urrounded 1y ad'irer! o2 /. )ri!hna'urti, and hi'!e2 de#eoped a
pro2ound, though not un'i:ed, re!pect 2or the 'an. ,.G. (a! ater to !ay, 7I thought that he
'ight 1e the ony one (ho had reay 2reed hi'!e2 2ro' hi! 1ac3ground and had 2ound (hat I
(a! oo3ing 2or. &or a ti'e I and 'y (i2e #i!ited hi' in 4adra!. .e had ong !eriou! ta3!, 1ut
got no(here. I (a! e2t (ith the 2eeing that he had !een the !ugar cu1e, 1ut had ne#er ta!ted
the !ugar cu1e.7 .hate#er /. )ri!hna'urti;! !tate, it (a! cear that he coud 1e o2 no hep to
,.G. A2ter hi! caa'ity ,.G. too3 a hard ine again!t the oder 'an, caing hi' 7the greate!t
2raud o2 the $0th Century,7 and 7a pur#eyor o2 archaic, out'oded, outdated, Cictorian hog(a!h.7
%e ha! ne#er 5ue!tioned the 'an;! per!ona integrity, 1ut 2ee! that he ha! contradicted the
#ery 2unda'enta! o2 hi! o(n teaching. 7%e denounce! !y!te'! and open! 'editation !choo!,
ta3! o2 the cripping e22ect! o2 conditioning then run! !choo! (hich 2o!ter 'ore conditioning,
ta3! o2 !i'picity and 1uid! (ord(ide rea e!tate organi?ation!< !ay! you 'u!t 1e on your
o(n, then ta3e! 'ea!ure! to pre!er#e hi! teaching! 2or the 2uture,7 !ay! ,.G. &urther, ,.G.
in!i!t! that /. )ri!hna'urti ha! !u1ty enticed peope into 1eie#ing in a !piritua goa, a goa
(hich 'oreo#er can 1e reached through !peci2ic techni5ue!667pa!!i#e a(arene!!7, 72ree
in5uiry7, 7direct perception7, 7!3eptici!'7, etc. /. )ri!hna'urti ta3! o2 tran!2or'ation! in
con!ciou!ne!!, (hie ,.G. re9ect! the idea o2 tran!2or'ation atogether. 7There i! nothing to 1e
tran!2or'ed, no p!yche to re#outioni?e, and no a(arene!! you can u!e to i'pro#e or change
your!e2,7 !ay! ,.G.

CHAT$, - + TH$ C$,TAINTY THAT %.ASTS $/$,YTHING
,.G.: I can ne#er !it on a pat2or' and ta3. It i! too arti2icia. It i! a (a!te o2 ti'e to !it and
di!cu!! thing! in hypothetica or a1!tract ter'!. An angry 'an doe! not !it and ta3 and
con#er!e pea!anty a1out anger< he i! too angry. +o don;t te 'e that you are in cri!i!, that you
are angry. .hy ta3 o2 anger8 *ou i#e and die in the hope that !o'eday, !o'eho(, you (i no
onger 1e angry. *ou are 1urdened (ith hope, and i2 thi! i2e !ee'! hopee!!, you in#ent the
ne:t i2e. There are no i#e! to co'e.
0+ 1ell2 it "ertainly "annot !e said that your tal3ing gives ho4e to anyone. 1hy do you
tal3 i5 not to "onsole or instru"t6
,.G.: .hat a' I to do8 *ou co'e, I ta3. Fo you (ant 'e to critici?e you, to thro( !tone!8 It i!
u!ee!!, 2or you are a22ected 1y nothing, ha#ing erected an i'penetra1e ar'or around your!e2.
*ou 2ee nothing. ,na1e to under!tand your !ituation, you react through thought, (hich i! your
idea! and 'entation!. =eaction i! thought. The pain you are going through there i! ceary
re2ected (ithout ha#ing to e:perience the pain here. %ere there i! no e:perience at a. That i!
a. In thi! natura !tate you 2ee the pain o2 other!, (hether you per!onay 3no( the' or not.
=ecenty 'y ede!t !on (a! dying o2 cancer in a ho!pita near1y. I (a! in the area and #i!ited
hi' o2ten. &riend! !aid that I (a! in inten!e pain during the (hoe ti'e, unti he died. I cannot
do anything. It ApainB i! an e:pre!!ion o2 i2e. They (anted 'e to atte'pt !o'e 3ind o2 heaing
2or hi! cancer. I2 I touch that tu'or it (i gro(, 2or I a' adding i2e to it. Cancer i! a 'utipication
o2 ce!, another e:pre!!ion o2 i2e, and anything I 'ight do ony !trengthen! it.
0+ So you "an a44re"iate the su55ering o5 others and yet are 5ree o5 it yoursel52 is that it6
,.G.: +u22ering i! an e:perience, and there i! no e:perience here. *ou are not one thing, and
i2e another. It i! one unitary 'o#e'ent and anything I !ay a1out it i! 'i!eading, con2u!ing. *ou
are not a 7per!on7, not a 7thing7, not a di!crete entity !urrounded 1y 7other7 thing!. The unitary
'o#e'ent i! not !o'ething (hich you can e:perience.
0+ %ut to tal3 o5 living without e74erien"ing sounds irrational to our 8inds.
,.G.: .hat I a' !aying con2ict! (ith your ogica 2ra'e(or3. *ou are u!ing ogic to continue
that !eparati#e !tructure, that i! a. *our 5ue!tion! are again thought! and there2ore reacti#e.
A thought i! reacti#e. *ou are de!peratey protecting thi! ar'our, thi! !hied o2 thought, and
are 2rightened that the 'o#e'ent o2 i2e 'ight !'a!h your 2rontier!. >i2e i! i3e a ri#er in !pate,
a!hing at the 1an3!, threatening the i'it! that ha#e 1een paced around it. *our thought
!tructure and your actua phy!ioogica 2ra'e(or3 are i'ited, 1ut i2e it!e2 i! not. That i! (hy i2e
in 2reedo' i! pain2u to the 1ody< the tre'endou! out1ur!t o2 energy that ta3e! pace here i! a
pain2u thing to the 1ody, 1a!ting e#ery ce a! it goe!. *ou cannot i'agine ho( it i! in your
(ide!t drea'!. Thi! i! (hy it i! 'i!eading no 'atter ho( I put it.
0+ The gurus and 4riests tea"h us also that there is no se4arative stru"ture and that that
is the sour"e o5 our 4ro!le8s. How do you di55er 5ro8 the86
,.G.: &or you, and the', it i! 9u!t (ord!. *our 1eie2 in a unitary 'o#e'ent o2 i2e i! 9u!t a
grounde!! 1eie2, ac3ing any certainty. *ou ha#e ce#ery rationai?ed (hat the guru! and hoy
1oo3! ha#e taught you. *our 1eie2! are the re!ut o2 1ind acceptance o2 authority, a
!econdhand !tu22. *ou are not !eparate 2ro' your 1eie2!. .hen your preciou! 1eie2! and
iu!ion! co'e to an end, you co'e to an end. 4y ta3ing i! nothing 'ore than the re!pon!e to
your pain, (hich you are e:pre!!ing through 5ue!tion!, ogica argu'ent!, and other
'entation!.
0+ %ut surely your sitting here and tal3ing hour a5ter hour indi"ates that you have a
4hiloso4hy2 a 8essage to give2 even i5 it is 4oorly understood !y your listeners.
,.G.: Not at a. There i! no1ody here ta3ing, gi#ing ad#ice, 2eeing pain, or e:periencing
anything at a. >i3e a 1a thro(n again!t the (a, it 1ounce! 1ac3, that i! a. 4y ta3ing i! the
direct re!ut o2 your 5ue!tion, I ha#e nothing here o2 'y o(n, no o1#iou! or hidden agenda, no
product to !e, no a:e to grind, nothing to pro#e.
0+ %ut the !ody is transient2 and we all as4ire 5or so8e 3ind o5 i88ortality. Naturally we
turn to higher 4hiloso4hy2 religion2 the s4iritual. Surely2 i5 we ...
,.G.: It i! the 1ody (hich i! i''orta. It ony change! it! 2or' a2ter cinica death, re'aining
(ithin the 2o( o2 i2e in ne( !hape!. The 1ody i! not concerned (ith 7the a2teri2e7 or any 3ind o2
per'anency. It !trugge! to !ur#i#e and 'utipy N@.. The 2ictitiou! 71eyond7, created 1y
thought out o2 2ear, i! reay the de'and 2or 'ore o2 the !a'e, in 'odi2ied 2or'. Thi! de'and
2or repetition o2 the !a'e thing o#er and o#er again i! the de'and 2or per'anence. +uch
per'anence i! 2oreign to the 1ody. Thought;! de'and 2or per'anence i! cho3ing the 1ody and
di!torting perception. Thought !ee! it!e2 a! not 9u!t the protector o2 it! o(n continuity, 1ut a!o
o2 the 1ody;! continuity. Both are uttery 2a!e.
0+ It see8s that so8e sort o5 radi"al "hange 8ust ta3e 4la"e2 !ut without the
inter5eren"e o5 will ...
,.G.: I2 it occur! through no #oition o2 your!, then that i! the end o2 it. *ou (i ha#e no (ay o2
!topping it, o2 changing the !ituation at a. *ou cannot 1ut go through it. It doe! no good to
5ue!tion reaity. Iue!tion, rather, your goa!, your 1eie2!, and a!!u'ption!. It i! 2ro' the', not
reaity, that you 'u!t 1e 2reed. The!e pointe!! 5ue!tion! you are a!3ing (i di!appear (ith the
auto'atic a1andon'ent o2 your goa!. They are interdependent. @ne can;t e:i!t (ithout the
other.
0+ Su"h a 4ros4e"t is 9ust too 8u"h. 1e 5ear o!livion2 utter destru"tion.
,.G.: I2 you dro(n, you dro(n. *ou (i not !in3. But (hat good are 'y a!!urance! to you8
.orthe!!, I;' a2raid. *ou (i continue doing (hat you are doing< it! 'eaninge!!ne!! doe! not
e#en occur to you. I te you, (hen you !top doing thing! out o2 hope and the de!ire 2or
continuity, a you do aong (ith it !top!. *ou (i !tay a2oat. But !ti the hope re'ain! there<
7There 'u!t 1e +@4" (ay, perhap! I a' not doing it the right (ay.7 In other (ord!, (e ha#e to
accept the a1!urdity o2 depending upon AN*T%ING. .e 'u!t 2ace our hepe!!ne!!.
0+ 1e 9ust "annot hel4 5eeling that there 8ust !e so8e solution 5or our 4ro!le8s.
,.G.: *our pro1e'! continue 1ecau!e o2 the 2a!e !oution! you ha#e in#ented. I2 the an!(er!
are not there, the 5ue!tion! cannot 1e there. They are interdependent< your pro1e'! and
!oution! go together. Becau!e you (ant to u!e certain an!(er! to end your pro1e'!, tho!e
pro1e'! continue. The nu'erou! !oution! o22ered 1y a the!e hoy peope, the p!ychoogi!t!,
the poitician!, are not reay !oution! at a. That i! o1#iou!. I2 there (ere egiti'ate an!(er!,
there (oud 1e no pro1e'!. They can ony e:hort you to try harder, practice 'ore 'editation!,
cuti#ate hu'iity, !tand on your head, and 'ore and 'ore o2 the !a'e. That i! a they can do.
The teacher, guru, or eader (ho o22er! !oution! i! a!o 2a!e, aong (ith hi! !o6caed an!(er!.
%e i! not doing any hone!t (or3, ony !eing a cheap, !hoddy co''odity in the 'ar3etpace. I2
you 1ru!hed a!ide your hope, 2ear, and naJ#etKL and treated the!e 2eo(! i3e 1u!ine!!'en,
you (oud !ee that they do not dei#er the good!, and ne#er (i. But you go on and on 1uying
the!e 1ogu! (are! o22ered up 1y the e:pert!.
0+ %ut the whole 5ield is so "o84li"ated that it see8s ne"essary 5or us to rely on those
who have studied "are5ully and devoted their lives to sel5:reali;ation and wisdo8.
,.G.: A their phio!ophie! cannot co'pare to the nati#e (i!do' o2 the 1ody it!e2. .hat they
are caing 'enta acti#ity, !piritua acti#ity, e'otiona acti#ity, and 2eeing! are reay a one
unitary proce!!. Thi! 1ody i! highy inteigent and doe! not need the!e !cienti2ic or theoogica
teaching! to !ur#i#e and procreate. Ta3e a(ay a your 2ancie! a1out i2e, death, and 2reedo',
and the 1ody re'ain! un!cathed, 2unctioning har'oniou!y. It doe! not need your or 'y hep.
*ou don;t ha#e to do a thing. *ou (i ne#er again a!3 !tupid, idiotic 5ue!tion! a1out
i''ortaity, a2teri#e!, or death. The 1ody i! i''orta.
0+ You have 8er"ilessly "ut o55 every 4ossi!ility o5 reha!ilitation2 o!literating even the
5aint ho4e o5 es"a4ing this unha44iness. There see8s to !e nothing le5t !ut sel5:
destru"tion. 1hy not sui"ide6
,.G.: I2 you co''it !uicide, it doe! not hep the !ituation in any (ay. The 'o'ent a2ter !uicide
the 1ody 1egin! to decay, returning 1ac3 to other, di22erenty organi?ed 2or'! o2 i2e, putting an
end to nothing. %ife has no beginning and no end& A dead and dying 1ody 2eed! the hungry ant!
there in the gra#e, and rotting corp!e! gi#e o22 !oi6enriching che'ica!, (hich in turn nouri!h
other i2e 2or'!. *ou cannot put an end to your i2e, it i! i'po!!i1e. The 1ody i! i''orta and
ne#er a!3! !iy 5ue!tion! i3e, 7I! there i''ortaity87 It 3no(! that it (i co'e to an end in that
particuar 2or', ony to continue on in other!. Iue!tion! a1out i2e a2ter death are a(ay! a!3ed
out o2 2ear.
Tho!e eader! (ho (oud direct your 7!piritua i2e7 cannot 1e hone!t a1out the!e thing!, 2or
they 'a3e a i#ing out o2 2ear, !pecuation! a1out 2uture i2e, and the 7'y!tery7 o2 death.
And a! 2or you, the 2oo(er!, you are not reay intere!ted in the 2uture o2 'an, ony your o(n
petty itte de!tinie!. It i! 9u!t a ritua you go through, ta3ing 2or hour! and hour! a1out 'an3ind,
co'pa!!ion, and the re!t. It i! *@, that you are intere!ted in, other(i!e there (oud not 1e thi!
chidi!h intere!t in your 2uture i#e!, and your i''inent de'i!e.
0+ %ut 5or 8any o5 us li5e is a sa"red thing. 1e struggle to 4rote"t our "hildren2 the
environ8ent2 to avert another war ....
,.G.: *ou are a neurotic peope. *ou ta3 again!t 1irth contro, drone on and on a1out the
preciou!ne!! o2 i2e, then 1o'1 and 'a!!acre. It i! too a1!urd. *ou are concerned (ith an
un1orn i2e (hie you are 3iing thou!and! and thou!and! o2 peope 1y 1o'1ing, !tar#ation,
po#erty and terrori!'. *our 7concern7 a1out i2e i! ony to 'a3e a poitica i!!ue out o2 it. It i! 9u!t
an acade'ic di!cu!!ion. I a' not intere!ted in that.
0+ Yes2 !ut 8any o5 us see all this and nevertheless are interested in "hanging things. It
is not 9ust egois8 on our 4arts.
,.G.: Are you reay intere!ted8 Are you intere!ted in the 2uture o2 'an3ind8 *our e:pre!!ion!
o2 anger, righteou!ne!!, and caring ha#e no 'eaning to 'e. It i! 9u!t a ritua. *ou !it and ta3,
that;! a. *ou are not at a angry. I2 you (ere angry at thi! 'o'ent, you (oud not a!3 thi!
5ue!tion, e#en to your!e2. *ou !it e#era!tingy ta3ing o2 anger. The angry (oudn;t ta3 a1out
it. The 1ody ha! aready acted (ith regard to that anger 1y a1!or1ing it. The anger i! 1urnt,
2ini!hed then and there. *ou don;t do anything< the 1ody 9u!t a1!or1! it. That i! a. I2 a thi! i!
too 'uch 2or you, i2 it depre!!e! you, don;t e#er go to the hoy 'en. Ta3e pi!, do anything, 1ut
don;t e:pect the hoy 1u!ine!! to hep you. It i! a (a!te o2 ti'e.
0+ You 8a3e 8e want to 9ust dro4 the whole thing2 to renoun"e ...
,.G.: A! ong a! you thin3 you ha#e !o'ething to renounce, you are o!t. Not to thin3 o2 'oney
and the nece!!itie! o2 i2e i! an ine!!. It i! a per#er!ion to deny your!e2 the 1a!ic need! o2 i2e.
*ou thin3 that through a !e26i'po!ed a!cetici!' you (i increa!e your a(arene!! and then 1e
a1e to u!e that a(arene!! to 1e happy. No chance. *ou (i 1e peace2u (hen a your idea!
a1out a(arene!! are dropped and you 1egin to 2unction i3e a co'puter. *ou 'u!t 1e a
'achine, 2unction auto'aticay in thi! (ord, ne#er 5ue!tioning your action! 1e2ore, during, or
a2ter they occur.
0+ Are you denying the i84ortan"e o5 yogi" 4ra"ti"es2 religious renun"iation2 or the
value o5 a 8oral u4!ringing6 Man is 8ore than a 8a"hine2 surely.
,.G.: A 'ora, !piritua, ethica #aue! are 2a!e. The p!ychoogi!t!, !earching 2or a prag'atic
(ay out, are no( at the end o2 their tether!, e#en turning to the !piritua peope 2or an!(er!.
They are o!t, and yet the an!(er! 'u!t co'e 2ro' the', not 2ro' the encru!ted, u!ee!!
tradition! o2 the hoy 1u!ine!!.
0+ This 8a3es us all so hel4less. No wonder 4eo4le have relied u4on 8essiahs2
mahatmas and 4ro4hets.
,.G.: The !o6caed 'e!!iah! ha#e e2t nothing 1ut 'i!ery in thi! (ord. I2 a 'odern 'e!!iah
ca'e 1e2ore you, he (oud 1e una1e to hep you at a. And i2 he can;t hep, no one can.
0+ I5 an anointed 4erson2 a savior or sage 5or e7a84le2 "an<t !e o5 hel42 then 4erha4s it is
as the s"ri4tures say2 we 8ust =3now the truth and the truth shall 8a3e us 5ree.=
,.G.: Truth i! a 'o#e'ent. *ou can;t capture it, contain it, gi#e e:pre!!ion to it, or u!e it to
ad#ance your intere!t!. The 'o'ent you capture it, it cea!e! to 1e the truth. .hat i! the truth
2or 'e i! !o'ething that cannot, under any circu'!tance!, 1e co''unicated to you. The
certainty here cannot 1e tran!'itted to another. &or thi! rea!on the (hoe guru 1u!ine!! i!
a1!oute non!en!e. Thi! ha! a(ay! 1een the ca!e, not 9u!t no(. *our !e26denia i! to enrich
the prie!t!. *ou deny your!e2 your 1a!ic need! (hie that 'an tra#e! in a =o! =oyce car,
eating i3e a 3ing, and 1eing treated i3e a potentate. %e, and the other! in the hoy 1u!ine!!,
thri#e on the !tupidity and creduity o2 other!. The poitician!, !i'iary, thri#e on the gui1iity o2
'an. It i! the !a'e e#ery(here.
0+ Your e84hasis is always on the negative side2 the "lassi" =neti neti= a44roa"h. Are
you not 4ointing out the ne"essity o5 dro44ing all e7"ess !aggage2 in"luding the
s"ri4tures2 gurus2 and authorities2 i5 one is to 5ind that state you indi"ate is our natural
!irthright6
,.G.: No. Foing a(ay (ith the guru!, te'pe!, and hoy 1oo3! a! a pre!cription 2or 2reedo' i!
ridicuou!. *ou !earch 2or an!(er! ony a! re'edie! 2or your pro1e'!, to a#oid pain.
"#erything that i! 1orn i! pain2u. There i! no u!e a!3ing (hy it i! !o. It i! !o. *ou thin3 that 1y
renouncing guru! and authoritie! you (i !u22er !o'e di#ine endurance< endurance o2 pain i!
not going to hep you !pirituay. There i! no (ay.
0+ %ut we 3now you to !e 8ore than a 5atalist2 a "yni". You are 4ointing out a di55erent
destiny 5or 8an2 not 9ust "ritiquing his 4resent 4redi"a8ent2 are you not6
,.G.: There i! a !oution 2or your pro1e'!66death. That 2reedo' you are intere!ted in can co'e
a1out ony at the point o2 death. "#ery1ody attain! moksha e#entuay, 2or moksha a(ay!
2ore!hado(! death, and e#eryone die!.
0+ %ut I in5er you do not 8ean death in any 4oeti" or 5an"i5ul sense. It is not
4sy"hologi"al2 ro8anti"2 or a!stra"t death you are des"ri!ing2 !ut real2 a"tual2 4hysi"al
death2 is it not6
,.G.: *e!, that i! it. .hen you die the 1ody i! in a pro!trate po!ition, it !top! 2unctioning, and
that i! the end o2 it. But in thi! ca!e the 1ody !o'eho( rene(ed it!e2. It happen! daiy a! a
'atter o2 cour!e no(< the (hoe proce!! too3 year! to !ta1ii?e. &or 'e i2e and death are one,
not t(o !eparate thing!. /u!t et 'e (arn you that i2 (hat you are ai'ing at 66 moksha 66 reay
happen!, you (i die. There (i 1e a phy!ica death, 1ecau!e there ha! to 1e a phy!ica death
to 1e in that !tate. It i! i3e paying around (ith controing your 1reath 1ecau!e you 2ind it
a'u!ing. But i2 you hod the 1reath ong enough, you cho3e to death.
0+ So we 8ust !e"o8e aware o5 death2 8a3ing it an o!9e"t o5 our 8editations2 and
treating it in su"h a ro8anti"2 8ysti"al way. Is that it6
,.G.: To de!cri1e that !tate a! a 'editati#e !tate 2u o2 a(arene!! i! ro'antic hog(a!h.
A(arene!!M .hat a 2anta!tic gi''ic3 u!ed to 2oo the'!e#e! and other!. *ou can;t 1e a(are
o2 e#ery !tep, you ony 1eco'e !e26con!ciou! and a(3(ard i2 you do. I once 3ne( a 'an (ho
(a! a har1or piot. %e had 1een reading a1out 7pa!!i#e a(arene!!7 and atte'pted to put it into
practice. %e, 2or the 2ir!t ti'e, neary (rec3ed the !hip he (a! guiding. .a3ing i! auto'atic,
and i2 you try to 1e a(are o2 e#ery !tep, you (i go cra?y. +o don;t in#ent 'editati#e !tep!.
Thing! are 1ad enough. The 'editati#e !tate i! (or!e.
0+ %ut you "an<t 9ust !rush aside ... everything you hold sa"red6
,.G.: @2 cour!e I can< it i! a 9u!t ro'antic !tu22. Any re'edy I o22ered you (oud 1eco'e part o2
your !earch< that i!, 'ore ro'antic !tu22. That i! (hy I ne#er tire o2 !aying that I ha#e no (are!
to !e, 'uch e!! o22er you ne( and 1etter 'ethod! (here1y you can continue your !earch. I
deny the #aidity o2 that !earch entirey. *ou (i get nothing here. Try your uc3 e!e(here.
0+ %ut surely you are hu8an and want to !e o5 servi"e to 8an3ind2 even i5 only out o5
4ity6
,.G.: .ho eected 'e the redee'er8 *ou ha#e nu'erou! !aint!, prophet! and !a#ior! (ho
(i!h to !er#e you. .hy add one 'ore8 /e!u! !aid, 7)noc3 and it !ha open. Co'e a ye unto
'e.7 &or !o'e rea!on I a' not a1e to do it. .e ha#e co#ered a ot o2 ground. Derhap! it i!
1etter i2 (e continue thi! con#er!ation to'orro(.
0+ Until to8orrow then.
,.G.: Than3 you.
0+ >ro8 what you said yesterday2 it see8s o!vious that one 8ust !e 4er5e"tly sane to do
what you have done2 that is2 die. 1hen we le5t o55 yesterday you were saying that one has
to a"tually die i5 one is to dis"over 5reedo8 or moksha. A radi"al ste4 su"h as this
"annot !e ta3en !y a ro8anti"2 neuroti" 4erson. It is the a"t o5 a 4erson 5ree 5ro8 sel5:
a!sor4tion2 neuroti" e4isodes2 and sel5:4ity. Is there any way to tea"h this6 Can 4eo4le
!e edu"ated to !e sane6
,.G.: I don;t 1eie#e in education. *ou can teach a techni5ue 66 'athe'atic!, auto 'echanic!,
1ut not integrity. %o( can you teach the' a1out non6greed and non6a'1ition in an in!aney
greedy and a'1itiou! !ociety8 *ou (i ony !ucceed in 'a3ing the' 'ore neurotic.
>oo3< you are a cheat. *our reigiou! a'1ition! are 9u!t i3e the 1u!ine!!'an;! there. I2 you
can;t cheat there i! !o'ething (rong. %o( do you thin3 the rich 'an there got hi! great (eath8
Through ecture! a1out non6greed and !e2e!!ne!!8 Not at a. %e got it 1y cheating !o'e1ody.
+ociety, (hich i! i''ora to 1egin (ith, !ay! that cheating i! i''ora, and that non6cheating i!
'ora. I don;t !ee the di22erence. I2 you get caught they put you in 9ai. +o your 2ood and !heter
are pro#ided 2or. .hy (orry8 It i! the guit you ha#e that co'pe! you to ta3 o2 non6greed (hie
you continue on (ith your greedy i2e. *our non6greed i! in#ented 1y thought to 3eep you 2ro'
2acing the 2act that greed i! a that i! there. But you are not !ati!2ied (ith (hat i! !o. I2 there
(ere nothing 'ore than that, (hat (oud you do8 That i! a that i! there. *ou 9u!t ha#e to i#e
(ith it. *ou can;t e!cape. A thought can do i! repeat it!e2 o#er and o#er again. That i! a it can
do. And anything repetiti#e i! !enie.
0+ Meditation see8s less re4etitive2 dee4er than ordinary thought. Yet it is unsatis5ying.
,.G.: I2 your 'editation!, sadhanas, 'ethod! and techni5ue! 'eant anything, you (oudn;t 1e
here a!3ing the!e 5ue!tion!. They are a 'ean! 2or you to 1ring a1out change. I 'aintain that
there i! nothing to change or tran!2or'. *ou accept that there i! !o'ething to change a! an
artice o2 2aith. *ou ne#er 5ue!tion the e:i!tence o2 the one (ho i! to 1e changed. The (hoe
'y!ti5ue o2 enighten'ent i! 1a!ed upon the idea o2 tran!2or'ing your!e2. I cannot con#ey or
tran!'it 'y certainty that you and a the authoritie! do(n through the centurie! are 2a!e. They
and the !piritua good! they pedde are uttery 2a!e. Becau!e I cannot co''unicate thi!
certainty to you it (oud 1e u!ee!! and arti2icia 2or 'e to get up on a pat2or' and hod 2orth. I
pre2er to ta3 in2or'ay< I 9u!t ta3, 7Nice 'eeting you.7
0+ Then why do you tal3 at all6
,.G.: There i! no particuar char' in 1eing anti!ocia. I don;t gi#e peope (hat they (ant. .hen
they reai?e they (i not get (hat they (ant here, they in#aria1y go a(ay. A! they are ea#ing
2or the a!t ti'e I i3e to add the rider, 7*ou (on;t get it any(here.7
.hen peope co'e to ta3 they 2ind the'!e#e! con2ronted (ith !ience it!e2. That i! (hy
e#ery1ody (ho co'e! i! auto'aticay !ient therea2ter. I2 he cannot !tand the !ience and
in!i!t! upon ta3ing and di!cu!!ing thing!, he (i 1e 2orced to di!agree and (a3 out. But i2 you
!tay ong, you (i 1e !ienced, not 1ecau!e it i! o#er6per!ua!i#e, 'ore rationa than you are, 1ut
1ecau!e it i! !ience it!e2 !iencing that 'o#e'ent there.
That !ience 1urn! e#erything here. A e:perience! are 1urnt. That i! (hy ta3ing to peope
doe!n;t e:hau!t 'e. It i! energy to 'e. That i! (hy I can ta3 2or the (hoe day (ithout !ho(ing
any 2atigue. Ta3ing (ith !o 'any peope o#er the year! ha! had no i'pact upon 'e. A that I
or they ha#e !aid i! 1urnt here, ea#ing no trace. Thi! i! not, un2ortunatey, the ca!e (ith you.
0+ How does intelligen"e 5it into all this6 You see8 to indi"ate that there is a native
intelligen"e that has nothing to do with the a""u8ulation o5 3nowledge and te"hnique.
,.G.: Accepting the i'itation! i! inteigence. *ou are trying to 2ree your!e2 2ro' the!e natura
i'itation! and that i! the cau!e o2 your !orro( and pain. *our action! are !uch that one action
i'it! the ne:t action. *our action at thi! 'o'ent i! i'iting the ne:t action. Thi! action i! a
reaction. the 5ue!tion o2 2reedo' o2 action doe! not e#en ari!e. There2ore no 2atai!tic
phio!ophy i! needed. The (ord 73ar'a7 'ean! an action (ithout a reaction. Any action o2
your! i'it! the action that i! to ta3e pace ne:t.
Any action that ta3e! pace at the con!ciou! e#e o2 your thin3ing e:i!tence i! a reaction. Dure,
!pontaneou! action 2ree o2 a pre#iou! action! i! 'eaninge!!. The one and ony action i! the
re!pon!e o2 thi! i#ing organi!' to the !ti'ui around it. That !ti'uu!6re!pon!e proce!! i! a
unitary pheno'enon. There i! no di#i!ion 1et(een action and reaction e:cept (hen thought
inter2ere! and arti2iciay !eparate! the'. @ther(i!e it i! an auto'atic, unitary proce!!, and
there i! nothing you can do to !top it. There i! no need to !top it.
/u!t a! in reaity there i! no !eparation o2 action and reaction, !o there i! no roo' 2or the
reigiou! 'an in the natura !che'e o2 thing!. The 2re!h 'o#e'ent o2 i2e threaten! hi! !ource
o2 po(er and pre!tige. +ti, he doe! not (ant to retire. %e 'u!t 1e thro(n out. =eigion i! not a
contractua arrange'ent, either pu1ic or pri#ate. It ha! nothing to do (ith the !ocia !tructure or
it! 'anage'ent. =eigiou! authority (ant! to continue it! hod on the peope, 1ut reigion i!
entirey an indi#idua a22air. The !aint! and !a#ior! ha#e ony !ucceeded in !etting you adri2t in
i2e (ith pain and 'i!ery and the re!te!! 2eeing that there 'u!t 1e !o'ething 'ore 'eaning2u
or intere!ting to do (ith one;! i2e.
":i!tence i! a that i! i'portant, not ho( to i#e. .e ha#e created the 7ho(7 to i#e, (hich in
turn ha! created thi! die''a 2or u!. *our thin3ing ha! created pro1e'!66(hat to eat, (ear,
ho( to 1eha#e66the 1ody doe!n;t care. I a' !i'py pointing out the a1!urdity o2 thi!
con#er!ation. @nce you get the hang o2 it, you 9u!t go. I ha#e no 'e!!age to gi#e 'an3ind.
.e ha#e !et in 'otion irre#er!i1e 2orce!. .e ha#e pouted the !3y, the (ater!, e#erything.
Nature;! a(! 3no( no re(ard, ony puni!h'ent. The re(ard i! ony that you are in har'ony
(ith nature. The (hoe pro1e' !tarted (hen 'an decided that the (hoe uni#er!e (a! created
2or hi! e:cu!i#e en9oy'ent. .e ha#e !uperi'po!ed the notion o2 e#oution and progre!! o#er
nature. @ur 'ind66and there are no indi#idua 'ind!, ony mind66(hich i! the accu'uation o2
the totaity o2 'an;! 3no(edge and e:perience, ha! created the notion o2 the p!yche and
e#oution. @ny technoogy progre!!e!, (hie (e a! a race are 'o#ing co!er to co'pete and
tota de!truction o2 our!e#e! and the (ord. "#erything in 'an;! con!ciou!ne!! i! pu!hing the
(hoe (ord, (hich nature ha! !o a1oriou!y created, to(ard! de!truction. There ha! 1een no
5uaitati#e change in 'an;! thin3ing< (e 2ee a1out our neigh1or! 9u!t a! the 2rightened ca#e
'an 2et to(ard! hi!. The ony thing that ha! changed i! our a1iity to de!troy our neigh1or and
hi! property.
Cioence i! an integra part o2 the e#outionary proce!!. That #ioence i! e!!entia 2or the !ur#i#a
o2 the i#ing organi!'. *ou can;t conde'n the hydrogen 1o'1, 2or it i! an e:ten!ion o2 the
poice'an there and your de!ire to 1e protected. .here do you dra( the ine8 *ou can;t. .e
ha#e no (ay o2 re#er!ing the (hoe thing.
0+ Hu8anitarians insist that 8an has a "a4a"ity 5or love2 and that love 8ay !e the only
solution to 8utual destru"tion. Is there anything to this6
,.G. >o#e and hate are e:acty the !a'e. They ha#e together re!uted in 'a!!acre, 'urder,
a!!a!!ination, and (ar!. Thi! i! a 'atter o2 hi!tory, not 'y opinion. Buddhi!' ha! re!uted in
horror! in /apan. It i! the !a'e thing e#ery(here. A our poitica !y!te'! ha#e co'e out o2 that
reigiou! thin3ing, (hether o2 the "a!t or o2 the .e!t. In the ight o2 the!e 2act!, ho( can you
ha#e any 2aith in reigion8 .hat i! the good o2 re#i#ing the (hoe pa!t, the u!ee!! pa!t8 It i!
1ecau!e your i#ing ha! no 'eaning to you that you d(e on the pa!t. *ou are not e#en dri2ting.
*ou ha#e no direction at a< you are 9u!t 2oating. @1#iou!y there i! no purpo!e to your i2e,
other(i!e you (oud not i#e in the pa!t.
.hat ha! not heped you cannot hep any1ody. No 'atter (hat I a' !aying, you are the
'ediu' o2 e:pre!!ion. *ou ha#e aready captured (hat I a' !aying and 'a3ing o2 it a ne( i!',
ideoogy, and 'ean! to attain !o'ething. .hat I a' trying to !ay i! that you 'u!t di!co#er
!o'ething 2or yourself. But do not 1e 'i!ed into thin3ing that (hat you 2ind (i 1e o2 u!e to
!ociety, that it can 1e u!ed to change the (ord. *ou are 2ini!hed (ith !ociety, that i! a.
0+ That thing that has to !e dis"overed ea"h !y hi8sel5 is God or enlighten8ent2 is it
not6
,.G.: No. God i! the uti'ate pea!ure, uninterrupted happine!!. No !uch thing e:i!t!. *our
(anting !o'ething that doe! not e:i!t i! the root o2 your pro1e'. Tran!2or'ation, moksha,
i1eration, and a that !tu22 are 9u!t #ariation! on the !a'e the'e: per'anent happine!!. The
1ody cannot ta3e that. The pea!ure o2 !e:, 2or in!tance, i! 1y nature te'porary. The 1ody can;t
ta3e uninterrupted pea!ure 2or ong, it (oud 1e de!troyed. .anting to i'po!e a 2ictitiou!,
per'anent !tate o2 happine!! on the 1ody i! a !eriou! neuroogica pro1e'.
0+ %ut the religions warn against 4leasure:see3ing. Through 4rayer2 8editation2 and
various 4ra"ti"es one is en"ouraged to trans"end 8ere 4leasure ...
,.G.: They !e you !piritua pathedrin!, !piritua 'orphine. *ou ta3e that drug and go to !eep.
No( the !cienti!t! ha#e per2ected pea!ure drug!, it i! 'uch ea!ier to ta3e. It ne#er !tri3e! you
that the enighten'ent and God you are a2ter i! 9u!t the uti'ate pea!ure, a pea!ure 'oreo#er,
(hich you ha#e in#ented to 1e 2ree 2ro' the pain2u !tate you are a(ay! in. *our pain2u,
neurotic !tate i! cau!ed 1y (anting t(o contradictory thing! at the !a'e ti'e.
0+ %ut so8ehow you are 5ree o5 all these "ontradi"tions2 and2 although you "lai8 not to
!e in any sort o5 4er4etual !liss2 you see8 to !e 5unda8entally ha44y. How "o8e your
li5e too3 this "ourse and not others6
,.G.: I2 I narrate the !tory o2 'y i2e, it i! a! i2 I a' de!cri1ing !o'e1ody e!e;! i2e. There i! no
attach'ent, !enti'ent, or e'otiona content 2or 'e (hen I con!ider 'y i2e. *ou get the (rong
i'pre!!ion i2 you thin3 I har1or any pri#ate, preciou! thought! or 2eeing! regarding 'y pa!t.
&or the 2ir!t ti'e, a 'an ha! 1ro3en a(ay 2ro' the reigiou! 1ac3ground Are2erring to /iddu
)ri!hna'urti66ed.B, and aready hi! teaching! are out'oded, outdated, and 'i!eading. /.). ha!
cho!en the p!ychoogica 2or' o2 e:panation, (hich i! aready pa!!K. *ou cannot de!troy /.).,
1ut the 2ra'e(or3 o2 thought he ha! created i! aready outdated and u!ee!!. The pro1e' i!
not p!ychoogica, 1ut phy!ioogica. Thi! 1ody ha! not 2unda'entay changed 2or hundred! o2
thou!and! o2 year!. It! propen!ity to 2oo( eader!, to a#oid !oitude, to (age (ar, to 9oin
group!66a !uch trait! are in the genetic 'a3e6up o2 'an3ind, part o2 hi! 1ioogica inheritance.
0+ .eaving aside the question o5 whether evil or good is 4ossi!le 5or an organis8 that is
already geneti"ally 4rogra88ed to !e !rutal and warli3e2 do not the religious 4ra"ti"es::
8editation2 yoga2 hu8ility2 et".::atte84t to hel4 8an go !eyond these !iologi"al
li8itations6
,.G.: 4editation i! it!e2 an e#i. That i! (hy a the e#i thought! !(e up (hen you try to
'editate. @ther(i!e you ha#e no re2erence point, no (ay o2 3no(ing i2 the thought! are good or
e#i thought!. 4editation i! a 1atte, 1ut you ony e:perience 'ore pain. I can a!!ure you that
not ony i! the goa o2 'editation and moksha put into you 1y our cuture, 1ut that uti'atey you
(i get nothing 1ut pain. *ou 'ay e:perience !o'e petty itte 'y!tica e:perience!, (hich are
o2 no #aue to you or anyone.
0+ %ut we are not interested in any su"h 4etty e74erien"es2 we want 5reedo8 ...
,.G.: .hat i! the di22erence (hether or not you 2ind thi! 2reedo', thi! enighten'ent or not. *ou
(i not 1e there to 1ene2it 2ro' it. .hat po!!i1e good can thi! !tate do you8 Thi! !tate ta3e!
a(ay "C"=*T%ING you ha#e. That i! (hy they ca it 7'i(anmukti7 66 i#ing in i1eration. .hie
i#ing, the 1ody ha! died. +o'eho( the 1ody, ha#ing gone through death, i! 3ept ai#e. It i!
neither happine!! nor unhappine!!. There i! no !uch thing a! happine!!. Thi! you do not,
cannot, (ant. .hat you (ant i! e#erything, here you o!e e#erything. *ou (ant e#erything, and
that i! not po!!i1e. The reigion! ha#e pro'i!ed you !o 'uch66ro!e!, garden!66and you end up
(ith ony thorn!.
0+ %ut other tea"hers2 li3e ?. @rishna8urti2 des"ri!e a 9ourney o5 dis"overy2 that through
awareness and 5ree inquiry one "an 5ind out ...
,.G.: There i! no tran!2or'ation, radica or other(i!e. That 1u22oon Are2erring to /.).B ta3ing in
the circu! tent there o22er! you a 9ourney o2 di!co#ery. It i! a 1ogu! charter 2ight. There i! no
!uch 9ourney. The Cedic !tu22 i! no 'ore hep2u. It (a! in#ented 1y !o'e acid6head! a2ter
drin3ing !o'e soma 9uice. /.). i! 'ore neurotic than the peope (ho go to i!ten to hi'.
0+ I5 you 4ut no "reden"e in the an"ient religious tea"hings2 then do you ta3e 8odern
4sy"hology any the 8ore seriously6
,.G.: The (hoe 2ied o2 p!ychoogy ha! 'i!ed the (hoe thin3ing o2 'an 2or a hundred year!
and 'ore. &reud i! the !tupendou! 2raud o2 the $0th century. /. )ri!hna'urti ta3! o2 a
re#oution in the p!yche. There is no )syche there& .here i! thi! 'ind (hich i! to 1e 'agicay
tran!2or'ed8 /.).;! di!cipe! ha#e co'e to the point (here a they can do i! to repeat
'eaninge!! phra!e!. They are !hao(, e'pty peope. The 2act that /.). can dra( arge cro(d!
'ean! nothing< !na3e char'er! a!o dra( 1ig cro(d!. Any1ody can dra( cro(d!.
0+ %ut you are using a si8ilar a44roa"h as ...
,.G.: *e!, I a' u!ing 80N o2 hi! (ord! and phra!e!, the #ery phra!e! he ha! u!ed o#er the
year! to conde'n guru!, !aint!, and !a#ior! i3e hi'!e2. %e ha! it co'ing. @ne thing I ha#e
ne#er !aid: he i! not a 'an o2 character. %e ha! great character, 1ut I a' not in the ea!t
intere!ted in 'en o2 character. I2 he !ee! the 'e!! he ha! created in hi! 2a!e roe a! (ord
4e!!iah and di!!o#e! the (hoe thing, I (i 1e the 2ir!t to !aute hi'. But he i! too od and
!enie to do it. %i! 2oo(er! are appaed that I a' gi#ing hi' a do!e o2 hi! o(n 'edicine. Fo
not co'pare (hat I a' !aying (ith (hat he, or other reigiou! authoritie!, ha#e !aid. I2 you gi#e
(hat I a' !aying any !piritua o#ertone!, any reigiou! 2a#or at a, you are 'i!!ing the point. A
thi! ha! to 1e dropped.
0+ %ut still it see8 to us that ?. @rishna8urti2 and 4erha4s a 5ew others in history2 have
so8ething to say. ?. @rishna8urti a44ears to !e what he "lai8s he is2 a 5ree 8an.
,.G.: %e ha! !o'ething. I a' 2ond o2 !aying that he ha! +""N the !ugar cu1e, 1ut ha! not
TA+T"F the !ugar cu1e. .hether that 'an, 'y!e2, or any other per!on i! 2ree or not i! not
your pro1e'< it i! the !hi11oeth o2 e!capi!t 'ind!, an a'u!e'ent in#ented to a#oid the rea
i!!ue, (hich i! your un2reedo'. *ou 'ay 1e !ure o2 one thing< he (ho !ay! he i! a 2ree 'an i!
a phoney. @2 thi! you 'ay 1e !ure. The thing you ha#e to 1e 2ree o2 i! the 72reedo'7 di!cu!!ed
1y that 'an and other teacher!. *ou 'u!t 1e 2ree 2ro' 7the 2ir!t and a!t 2reedo'7, and a the
2reedo'! that co'e in 1et(een.
0+ I5 the notion o5 a li5e o5 gra"e2 4ea"e2 and 5reedo8 are 9ust 5i"tions invited to es"a4e
our universal shallowness2 then why 4ro"eed at all6 I5 there is no a!iding2 trans"endent
reality to whi"h 8an 8ay turn2 then why should we "arry on our e7isten"e6 Is there only
eating2 slee4ing2 and !reathing6
,.G.: That i! a that i! there. Go. >oo3, I a' ony !aying that you 'u!t go 2ind out 2or your!e2 i2
there i! anything 1ehind the!e 'eaninge!! a1!traction! 1eing thro(n at you. They ta3 o2
!acred heart!, uni#er!a 'ind!, o#er6!ou!, you 3no(, a the a1!tract, 'y!tica ter'! u!ed to
!educe gui1e peope. >i2e ha! to 1e de!cri1ed in pure and !i'pe phy!ica and phy!ioogica
ter'!. It 'u!t 1e de'y!ti2ied and dep!ychoogi?ed. Fon;t ta3 o2 7higher center!7 and chakras. It
i! not the!e 1ut gand! that contro the hu'an 1ody. It i! the gand! that gi#e the in!truction! 2or
the 2unctioning o2 thi! organi!'. In your ca!e you ha#e introduced an interoper 66 thought. In
your natura !tate thought cea!e! to contro anything< it co'e! into te'porary 2unction (hen a
chaenge i! put 1e2ore it, i''ediatey 2aing into the 1ac3ground (hen it i! no onger needed.
0+ So then no 8atter what we do2 we are 5un"tioning in an unnatural way2 is that it6
,.G.: That i! (hy I a' pointing the!e thing! out. &orget a1out the idea !ociety and the idea
hu'an 1eing. /u!t oo3 at the (ay you are 2unctioning. That i! the i'portant thing. .hat ha!
pre#ented the organi!' 2ro' 2uy 2o(ering into it! o(n uni5uene!! i! cuture. It ha! paced the
(rong thing66the idea per!on661e2ore 'an. The (hoe thing i! 1orn out o2 the di#i!i#e
con!ciou!ne!! o2 'an3ind. It ha! 1rought u! nothing 1ut #ioence. That i! (hy no t(o guru! or
!a#ior! e#er agree. "ach i! intent upon preaching hi! o(n non!en!e.
0+ 1hat is it that draws us to hear you6 1hy are we interested in what you have to say6
,.G.: *ou co'e 2or the !a'e rea!on you go to anyone 2or an!(er!: you (ant to 3no(. you
1eie#e that in 3no(ing 'y !tory you (i 1e a1e to dupicate (hat happened to 'e. *ou, ha#ing
1een 1rain(a!hed a your i2e, can ony thin3 in ter'! o2 i'itation. *ou thin3 that !o'eho( you
can repeat (hat happened to 'e, that i! a. That i! your 'oti#e 2or co'ing. It i! not a ne(
approach to that reigiou! !tu22. It i! co'petey di22erent. It ha! a1!outey nothing to do (ith a
that ro'antic, !piritua, reigiou! !tu22, nothing. I2 you tran!ate (hat I a' !aying into reigiou!
ter'!, you are 'i!!ing the point entirey. 7=eigion7, 7God7, 7+ou7, 7Beatitude!7, 7moksha7, are
a 9u!t (ord!, idea! u!ed to 3eep your p!ychoogica continuity intact. .hen the!e thought! are
not there, (hat i! e2t i! the !i'pe, har'oniou! phy!ica 2unctioning o2 the organi!'. I a' a1e
to de!cri1e the (ay thi! organi!' i! 2unctioning 1ecau!e your 5ue!tion ha! created the
chaenge here. *our 5ue!tion! create the condition! nece!!ary 2or thi! re!pon!e to happen.
+o, it i! de!cri1ing it!e2, 1ut that i! not the (ay it i! 2unctioning. It 2unction! in a !tate o2 not
knowing& * ne(er a!3 'y!e2 ho( I a' 2unctioning. I ne(er 5ue!tion 'y action!, 1e2ore, during,
or a2ter they occur. Foe! a co'puter a!3 ho( it i! 2unctioning8
0+ %ut "o84uters have no 5eeling2 no 4sy"he2 no s4iritual di8ension. How "an you
"o84are ...6
,.G.: *ou can;t 2it 'e into that reigiou! 2ra'e(or3. Any atte'pt on your part to tran!ate (hat I
a' !aying into your reigiou! 2ra'e(or3 i! to 'i!! the point. I a' not one o2 your hoy 'en (ho
!ay, 7I a' hanging, !o co'e hang (ith 'e.7 A that !tu22 i! a 2or' o2 'adne!!.
0+ 1hat<s so 8ad a!out wanting to 5ind out a!out li5e and death ...6
,.G.: Becau!e 9u!t a! that cra?y (o'an there !ay! !he i! not 'ad, you in!i!t upon !aying there
i! death, that you are going to die. Both are 2a!e. A! 2ar a! 1eing !tate! o2 'ind 1a!ed upon
reaity, 1oth are e5uay in#aid.
0+ I thin3 I a8 !eginning to understand you intelle"tually ...
,.G.: I!n;t it a 9o3e to te 'e that you under!tand (hat I a' teing you8 *ou !ay that you at
ea!t under!tand 'e inteectuay, a! i2 there (ere !o'e other (ay o2 under!tanding. *our
inteectua under!tanding, in (hich you ha#e a tre'endou! in#e!t'ent, ha! not done one da'n
thing 2or you !o 2ar. *ou per!i!t in the cuti#ation o2 thi! inteectua under!tanding, 3no(ing a
the (hie that it ha! ne#er heped you at a. T%I+ I+ A4AOING. .hen hoping and atte'pting to
under!tand i! not there, then i2e 1eco'e! 'eaning2u. >i2e, your e:i!tence, ha! a tre'endou!
i#ing 5uaity a1out it. A your notion! a1out o#e, 1eatitude, in2inite 1i!!, and peace ony 1oc3
thi! natura energy o2 e:i!tence. %o( can I 'a3e you under!tand that (hat I a' de!cri1ing ha!
a1!outey nothing to do (ith a that reigiou! !tu228 *ou !ee hundred! o2 1odie! carried o22 in
the #an a2ter death, and yet you can;t po!!i1y i'agine your o(n death. It i! i'po!!i1e, 2or your
o(n death cannot 1e e:perienced 1y you. It i! reay !o'ething. It i! no good thro(ing a thi!
9un3 at 'e. .hate#er hit! thi! i! i''ediatey 1urnt66that i! the nature o2 the energy here.
The !piritua peope are the 'o!t di!hone!t peope. I a' e'pha!i?ing that 2oundation upon
(hich the (hoe o2 !pirituaity i! 1uit. I a' e'pha!i?ing that. I2 there is no s)irit, then the (hoe
ta3 o2 !pirituaity i! 1o!h and non!en!e. *ou can;t co'e into your o(n 1eing unti you are 2ree
2ro' the (hoe thing !urrounding the concept o2 7!e27. To 1e reay on your o(n, the (hoe
1a!i! o2 !piritua i2e, (hich i! erroneou!, ha! to 1e de!troyed. It doe! not 'ean that you
1eco'e 2anatica or #ioent, 1urning do(n te'pe!, tearing do(n the ido!, de!troying the hoy
1oo3!, i3e a 1unch o2 drun3!. It i! not that at a. It i! a 1on2ire in!ide o2 you. "#erything that
'an3ind ha! thought and e:perienced 'u!t go. The incredi1e #ioence in the (ord today ha!
1een created 1y the /e!u!e! and Buddha!.
0+ %ut surely the atte84t to !e"o8e "ivili;ed is an atte84t to trans"end the laws o5 the
9ungle ...
,.G.: It i! the one! (ho 1eie#e in God, (ho preach peace and ta3 o2 o#e, (ho ha#e created
the hu'an 9unge. Co'pared to 'an;! 9unge, nature;! 9unge i! !i'pe and !en!i1eM In nature
ani'a! don;t 3i their o(n 3ind. That i! part o2 the 1eauty o2 nature. In thi! regard 'an i! (or!e
than the other ani'a!. The !o6caed 7ci#ii?ed7 'an 3i! 2or idea! and 1eie2!, (hie the
ani'a! 3i ony 2or !ur#i#a.
0+ Man has strong ideals and !elie5s !e"ause he see3s truth2 whi"h the ani8als don<t.
,.G.: There i! no !uch thing a! truth. The ony thing that i! actuay there i! your 7ogicay7
a!certained pre'i!e, (hich you ca 7truth7.
0+ %ut2 again2 all the great tea"hings have stressed the i84ortan"e o5 5inding truth
through 4ra"ti"e2 sel5lessness and renun"iation.
,.G.: I renounce the ony thing (orth renouncing 66 the idea that there i! renunciation at a.
There i! nothing to renounce. *our 'i!ta3en idea! regarding renunciation ony create 'ore
2anta!ie! a1out 7truth7, 7God7, etc.
0+ It is not at all 5lattering to thin3 that we are worse than other ani8als ...
,.G.: Becau!e 'an i! (or!e than the ani'a! it 'ade it nece!!ary and po!!i1e 2or hi' to
create the 'ora die''a. .hen 'an 2ir!t e:perienced the di#i!ion in hi! con!ciou!ne!!66(hen
he e:perienced hi! !e26con!ciou!ne!!66he 2et !uperior to other ani'a!, (hich he i! not, and
therein !o(ed the !eed! o2 hi! o(n de!truction.
0+ So2 i5 I understand you "orre"tly2 you are saying that !e"ause we have 5alsely divided
li5e into sel5 and not:sel52 we have "reated a 8oral 4ro!le8 within us and in all our
relationshi4s. So our !asi" di55i"ulty is thin3ing ...
,.G.: *ou can;t e:perience anything e:cept through thought. *ou can;t e:perience your o(n
1ody e:cept through the hep o2 thought. The !en!ory perception! are there. *our thought! gi#e
2or' and de2inition to the 1ody, other(i!e you ha#e no (ay o2 e:periencing it. The 1ody doe!
not e:i!t e:cept a! a thought. There i! one thought. "#erything e:i!t! in reation!hip to that one
thought. That thought i! 7'e7. Anything you e:perience 1a!ed on thought i! an iu!ion.
0+ Do not illusions 4ersist only !e"ause awareness is not develo4ed in us6
,.G.: The (ord 7a(arene!!7 i! 'i!eading. A(arene!! i! not a di#ided !tate< there are not t(o
!tate! 66 a(arene!! and !o'ething e!e. There are not t(o thing!. It i! not that you are a(are o2
!o'ething. A(arene!! i! !i'py the action o2 the 1rain. The idea that you can ,+" a(arene!!
to 1ring a1out !o'e happier !tate o2 a22air!, !o'e !ort o2 tran!2or'ation, or God 3no(! (hat, i!,
2or 'e, a1!urd. A(arene!! cannot 1e u!ed to 1ring a1out a change in your!e2 or the (ord
around you.
A thi! ru11i!h a1out the con!ciou! and the uncon!ciou!, a(arene!!, and the !e2, i! a a
product o2 'odern p!ychoogy. The idea that you can u!e a(arene!! to get !o'e(here
p!ychoogicay i! #ery da'aging. A2ter 'ore than a hundred year! (e !ee' una1e to 2ree
our!e#e! 2ro' the p!ychoogica ru11i!h 66 &reud and the (hoe gang. /u!t (hat e:acty do you
'ean 1y con!ciou!ne!!8 *ou are con!ciou!, a(are, ony through thought. The other ani'a!
u!e thought66the dog, 2or e:a'pe, can recogni?e it! o(ner66in a !i'pe 'anner. They
recogni?e (ithout u!ing anguage. %u'an! ha#e added to the !tructure o2 thought, 'a3ing it
'uch 'ore co'pe:. Thought i! not your! or 'ine< it i! our co''on inheritance. There i! no
!uch thing a! your 'ind and 'y 'ind. There i! ony mind 66 the totaity o2 a that ha! 1een
3no(n, 2et, and e:perienced 1y 'an, handed do(n 2ro' generation to generation. .e are a
thin3ing and 2unctioning in that 7thought !phere7, 9u!t a! (e a !hare the !a'e at'o!phere 2or
1reathing. The thought! are there to 2unction and co''unicate in thi! (ord !aney and
inteigenty.
0+ Still2 we a"tually 5eel that there is a thin3er thin3ing these thoughts2 sort o5 a =ghost in
the 8a"hine=2 that thin3ing involves 8ore than the 8e"hani"al res4onse o5 8e8ory.
,.G.: The 3no(edge66that i! a that i! there. The 7'e7, 7p!yche7, 7'ind7, 7I7, or (hate#er you
(ant to ca it i! nothing e!e than the totaity o2 the inherited 3no(edge pa!!ed on to u! 2ro'
generation to generation, 'o!ty through education. *ou teach the chid to di!tingui!h 1et(een
coor!, to read, to i'itate 'anner!. It i! reati#e to each cuture: A'erican! earn A'erican
'anner!, Indian! earn Indian 'anner!, etc. Ge!ture! o2 the 1ody, o2 hand! or o2 2ace
con!tituted the 2ir!t anguage. >ater (ord! (ere added on. .e !ti u!e ge!ture! to !uppe'ent
our !po3en (ord! 1ecau!e (e 2ee that (ord! aone are inade5uate to 2uy e:pre!! (hat (e
(ant to con#ey.
A thi! i! not to !ay that (e can reay 3no( anything a1out thought. .e can;t. *ou 1eco'e
con!ciou! o2 thought ony (hen you 'a3e it an o19ect o2 thought, other(i!e you don;t e#en
3no( you are thin3ing. .e u!e thought ony to under!tand !o'ething out there, to re'e'1er
!o'ething, or to achie#e !o'ething. @ther(i!e (e don;t e#en 3no( i2 thought i! there or not.
Thought i! not !eparate 2ro' the 'o#e'ent o2 thought. Thought i! action, and (ithout it you
cannot act. There i! no !uch thing a! pure, !pontaneou!, thought62ree action at a. To act i! to
thin3.
*ou ha#e a !e26!tarting, !e26perpetuating 'echani!', (hich I ca the !e2. Thi! doe! not 'ean
that there i! actuay an entity there. I do not (ant or 'ean to gi#e that connotation to that (ord.
.here i! thi! ego, or !e2, that you ta3 o28 *our non6e:i!tent !e2 ha! heard o2 !pirituaity and
1i!! 2ro' !o'eone. To e:perience thi! thing caed 1i!! you 2ee you 'u!t contro your
thought!. It i! i'po!!i1e, you (i 1urn your!e2 and die i2 you atte'pt it.
0+ hiloso4hers are o5ten heard tal3ing o5 a =now=2 inde4endent o5 4ast and 5uture. Is
there su"h a thing as an eternal 4resent6
,.G.: The de'and 2or 'ore and 'ore e:perience con!titute! your 7pre!ent7, (hich i! 1orn out
o2 the pa!t. >oo3. %ere i! a 'icrophone 1e2ore you. *ou are oo3ing at it. I! it po!!i1e 2or you to
oo3 at it (ithout the (ord 74icrophone78 The in!tru'ent you are u!ing to oo3 at and
e:perience the 'icrophone i! the pa!t, your pa!t. I2 that i! !een there i! no 2uture at a. Any
achie#e'ent you are intere!ted in i! in the 2uture. The ony (ay that the 2uture can co'e into
operation i! in the pre!ent 'o'ent. ,n2ortunatey, in the pre!ent 'o'ent (hat i! in operation i!
the pa!t. *our pa!t i! creating your 2uture< in the pa!t you (ere happy or unhappy, 2ooi!h or
(i!e, in the 2uture you (i 1e the oppo!ite. +o the 2uture can;t 1e any the di22erent 2ro' the pa!t.
.hen the pa!t i! not in operation there i! no 7pre!ent7 at a, 2or (hat you are caing the
7pre!ent7 i! the pa!t repeating it!e2. In an actua !tate o2 7here and no(7 there i! no pa!t in
operation and, there2ore, no 2uture. I do not 3no( i2 you are 2oo(ing 'e.... The ony (ay the
pa!t can !ur#i#e and 'aintain it! continuity i! through the con!tant de'and to e:perience the
!a'e thing o#er and o#er. That i! (hy i2e ha! 1eco'e a 1ore. >i2e ha! 1eco'e 1oring 1ecau!e
(e ha#e 'ade o2 it a repetiti#e thing. +o (hat (e 'i!ta3eny ca the 7pre!ent7 i! reay the
repetiti#e pa!t pro9ecting a 2ictitiou! 2uture. *our goa!, your !earch, your a!piration! are ca!t in
that 'oud.
0+ #ne 4ro!le8 with understanding the 4ast is its e4he8erality. The 4sy"he or 8ind has
to !e lo"ated so8ewhere i52 as you say2 there is no soul and no higher 4lanes. 1here2 i5 I
"an 4ut it that way2 is the 4ast6
,.G.: &ro' your 3no(edge, out o2 the pa!t, you a!3 5ue!tion!, and the #ery 'oti#e o2 your
a!3ing i! ony to gain 'ore 3no(edge 2ro' !o'eone e!e, !o that your 3no(edge !tructure
can continue. *ou are reay not intere!ted in thi! at a. *our 3no(edge co'ing to an end
'ean! that *@, are co'ing to an end. .here, you a!3, i! thi! 3no(edge, the pa!t8 I! it in your
1rain8 .here i! it8 It i! a o#er your 1ody. It i! in e#ery ce o2 your 1ody.
The!e 5ue!tion! a !pring 2ro' your !earch. It doe!n;t 'atter (hat the o19ect o2 that !earch i! 66
God, a 1eauti2u (o'an or 'an, a ne( car. It i! a the !a'e !earch. And that hunger will ne(er
be satisfied. That hunger 'u!t 1urn it!e2 out co'petey (ithout 3no(ing !ati!2action. The thir!t
you ha#e 'u!t 1urn it!e2 out (ithout 1eing 5uenched. It da(n! on you that thi! i! not the (ay,
and it i! 2ini!hed.
.hat I a' e'pha!i?ing i! that (e are trying to !o#e our 1a!ic hu'an pro1e'! through a
p!ychoogica 2ra'e(or3, (hen actuay the pro1e' i! neuroogica. The 1ody i! in#o#ed. Ta3e
de!ire. A! ong a! there i! a i#ing 1ody, there (i 1e de!ire. It i! natura. Thought ha! inter2ered
and tried to !uppre!!, contro, and 'orai?e a1out de!ire, to the detri'ent o2 'an3ind. .e are
trying to !o#e the 7pro1e'7 o2 de!ire through thought. It i! thin3ing that ha! created the
pro1e'. *ou !o'eho( continue to hope and 1eie#e that the !a'e in!tru'ent can !o#e your
other pro1e'! a! (e. *ou hope again!t hope that thought (i pu you through, 1ut you (i
die in hope 9u!t a! you ha#e i#ed in hope. That i! the re2rain o2 'y doo' !ong.
0+ All religions have 4la"ed the desire 5or 5reedo82 heaven2 li!eration2 or God !e5ore all
others as !eing worthy o5 4ursuit. %ut i5 these ulti8ate goals do not e7ist2 as you see8 to
suggest2 they are2 there5ore2 in5erior desires2 !eing 5alse and hen"e i84ossi!le to satis5y.
%ut this re4els usA we insist that so8e desires2 es4e"ially those whi"h ostensi!ly
trans"end =the 5lesh=2 are 8ore divine than others. 1ould you "o88ent on this6
,.G.: ,ne!! you are 2ree 2ro' the de!ire o2 a de!ire!, moksha, i1eration, or !e26reai?ation,
you (i 1e 'i!era1e. The uti'ate goa66(hich !ociety ha! paced 1e2ore u!66i! the one that ha!
to go. ,nti you are 2ree 2ro' that de!ire, you cannot 1e 2ree 2ro' any o2 your 'i!erie!. By
!uppre!!ing the!e de!ire!, you are not going to 1e 2ree. Thi! reai?ation i! the e!!entia thing,
going a! it doe! to the cru: o2 the pro1e'. It i! !ociety that ha! paced the de!ire 2or 2reedo',
the de!ire 2or i1eration, the de!ire 2or God, the de!ire 2or moksha 66 that i! the de!ire you 'u!t
1e 2ree 2ro'. Then a the!e other de!ire! 2a into their o(n natura rhyth'. *ou !uppre!! the!e
de!ire! ony 1ecau!e you are a2raid !ociety (i puni!h you i2 you act on the', or 1ecau!e you
!ee the' a! 7o1!tace!7 to your 'ain de!ire 66 2reedo'.
I2 thi! 3ind o2 thing !houd happen to you, you (i 2ind your!e2 1ac3 in a pri'e#a !tate (ithout
pri'iti#ity, and (ithout any #oition on your part. It 9u!t happen!. +uch a 2ree 'an i! not in
con2ict (ith !ociety any 'ore. %e i! not anti!ocia, not at (ar (ith the (ord< he !ee! that it can;t
1e any the di22erent. %e doe!n;t (ant to change !ociety at a< the de'and 2or change ha!
cea!ed. Any doing in any direction i! #ioence. Any e22ort i! #ioence. Anything you do (ith
thought to create a peace2u !tate o2 'ind i! u!ing 2orce, and !o, i! #ioent. +uch an approach i!
a1!urd. *ou are trying to en2orce peace through #ioence. *oga, 'editation!, prayer!, mantras,
are a #ioent techni5ue!. The i#ing organi!' i! (ery peace2u< you don;t ha#e to do a thing.
The peace2uy 2unctioning 1ody doe!n;t care one hoot 2or your ec!ta!ie!, 1eatitude!, or 1i!!2u
!tate!.
4an ha! a1andoned the natura inteigence o2 the 1ody. That i! (hy I !ay66it i! 'y 7doo'
!ong766that the day 'an e:perienced that con!ciou!ne!! that 'ade hi' 2ee !eparate and
!uperior to the other ani'a!, at that 'o'ent he 1egan !o(ing the !eed! o2 hi! o(n
de!truction. Thi! (arped #ie( o2 i2e i! !o(y pu!hing the entire thin3ing to(ard! tota
annihiation. There i! nothing you can do to hat it.
I a' not an aar'i!t. I a' not 2rightened, I a' not intere!ted in !a#ing the (ord. 4an3ind i!
doo'ed any(ay.
A I a' !aying i! that the peace you are !ee3ing i! aready in!ide you, in the har'oniou!
2unctioning o2 the 1ody.
0+ It sounds 8ore and 8ore li3e the 9o3e a!out the %uddha saying2 =Don<t 9ust do
so8ething2 stand there.= Not 8a3ing 8ove8ent in any dire"tion at any level is not so
easy.
,.G.: Anything you do to 2ree your!e2 2ro' anything 2or (hate#er rea!on i! de!troying the
!en!iti#ity, carity, and 2reedo' that i! aready there.
0+ I5 it were 4ossi!le to see things as they really are ...
,.G.: There i! no 5ue!tion o2 your !eeing thing! a! they are. *ou can;t !ee thing! a! they are.
*ou ne#er ea#e any e:perience or 2eeing you ha#e aone. *ou ha#e to capture and interpret
that 2eeing (ithin the 2ra'e(or3 o2 the 3no(n. *ou are happy or unhappy ony a! you ha#e
3no(edge a1out and e:perience o2 happine!! and unhappine!!. +o e#erything ha! to 1e
1rought (ithin the 2ra'e(or3 o2 the 3no(n 1e2ore you can e:perience it. The 'o#e'ent o2 the
3no(n i! gathering 'o'entu' (ithin you. It! ony intere!t i! to continue. There i! no entity, no
!e2 there to gi#e it!e2 continuity< it i! 9u!t the 'o#e'ent o2 thought, the !e26perpetuating
!eparation. It i! 'echanica. Anything you try to do a1out it ony add! 'o'entu' to it.
0+ $astern tea"hers have said that desire is an evil2 that it 8ust !e trans"ended ...
,.G.: It i! the de!ire to reach a particuar goa, an a i'portant goa, that 'u!t go, not the
counte!! petty itte de!ire!. The ony rea!on you try to 'anipuate or contro the petty de!ire!
i! that !uch contro i! a part o2 your !trategy to attain the highe!t goa, the de!ire o2 a de!ire!.
"i'inate that 'ain goa and the other! 2a into a natura pattern and po!e no pro1e' 2or you or
2or the (ord. *ou (on;t get any(here 1y trying to ende!!y contro and 'anipuate the!e
nu'erou! de!ire!. It i! #iciou! in it! nature.
0+ Is there any higher goal at all6
,.G.: The !o6caed 7highe!t goa7 i! i3e the hori?on. The 2urther you 'o#e to(ard! it, the
2urther it recede!. The goa, i3e the hori?on, i! not reay there. It i! a pro9ection o2 your o(n 2ear
and it 'o#e! a(ay 2ro' you a! you pur!ue it. %o( can you 3eep up (ith it8 There i! nothing
that you can do. +ti, it i! de!ire that 3eep! you 'o#ing< no 'atter in (hich direction you 'o#e,
it i! the !a'e.
0+ You say that I a8 living in illusion. %ut 4overty2 wor32 war2 they are not illusions. Are
they6 In what sense a8 I !eing deluded6
,.G.: .hat you e:perience through your !eparati#e con!ciou!ne!! i! an iu!ion. *ou can;t !ay
that 2aing 1o'1! are an iu!ion. It i! not an iu!ion, ony your e:perience o2 it i! an iu!ion. The
reaity o2 the (ord that you are e:periencing no( i! an iu!ion. That i! a I a' trying to !ay.
0+ I5 you say that 8y relative2 su!9e"tive world view is !iased and there5ore illusory2 I a8
4re4ared to agree with you. %ut you also deny any outside2 o!9e"tive 8easure o5
a!solute reality2 do you not6
,.G.: There i! no !uch thing a! a1!oute. It i! thought, and thought aone, that ha! created the
a1!oute. A1!oute ?ero, a1!oute po(er, a1!oute per2ection, the!e ha#e 1een in#ented 1y the
hoy 'en and 7e:pert!7. They 3idded the'!e#e! and other!.
Fo(n the centurie! the !aint!, !a#ior!, and prophet! o2 'an3ind ha#e 3idded the'!e#e! and
e#ery1ody e!e. Der2ection and a1!oute! are 2a!e. *ou are trying to i'itate and reate your
1eha#ior according to the!e a1!oute!, and it i! 2a!i2ying you. *ou are actuay 2unctioning in an
entirey di22erent (ay< you are 1ruta, you 2ee you 'u!t 1e peace2u. It i! contradictory, that;! a
I;' pointing out.
0+ 1e wonder at your eagerness to deny all the religious and 4hiloso4hi"al authorities ...
,.G.: The certainty that da(ned upon 'e i! !o'ething (hich cannot 1e tran!'itted. It doe! not
'ean that I a' !uperior, a cho!en one, one in (ho' a the #irtue! are roed into one. Not at
a. I a' 9u!t an ordinary 'an and ha#e nothing to do (ith it. Thi! certainy 1a!t! e#erything,
incuding the cai'! o2 the !o6caed enightened one! !eing thing! in the 'ar3etpace.
0+ I5 the holy 8en and saviors have !een wrong a!out 8an<s 4ro4er 4la"e in the s"he8e
o5 things2 surely they have !een at least 4artially right in 4ointing towards a higher unity2
God2 i5 you will.
,.G.: .hat I a' trying to put acro!! i! that there i! no !uch thing a! God. It i! the 'ind that ha!
created God out o2 2ear. &ear i! pa!!ed on 2ro' generation to generation. What is there is fear,
not +od. I2 you are uc3y enough to 1e 2ree 2ro' 2ear, then there i! no God. There i! no uti'ate
reaity, no God 66 nothing. &ear it!e2 i! the pro1e', not 7God7. .anting to 1e 2ree 2ro' 2ear i!
it!e2 2ear.
*ou !ee, you o#e 2ear. The ending o2 2ear i! death, and you don;t (ant T%AT to happen. I a'
not ta3ing o2 (iping out the pho1ia! o2 the 1ody. They are nece!!ary 2or !ur#i#a. The death o2
2ear i! the ony death.
0+ Until we so8ehow 5ind the "ourage to die to our 5ears we "ontinue to ...
,.G.: ... hope, pray, practice #irtue!. The 'an (ho practice! #irtue i! a 'an o2 #ice. @ny !uch a
'an, a 'an o2 #ice, (oud practice #irtue. There i! not a #irtuou! 'an in the (ord. A 'en (i
1e #irtuou! T@4@==@., unti then they re'ain 'en o2 #ice. *our #irtue ony e:i!t! in the
2ictitiou! 2uture. .here i! thi! #irtue you are ta3ing o28 It i! no good hoping to 1e #irtuou! in a
2uture i2e either< there i! no guarantee that there i! any 2uture i2e, 'uch e!! that you (i 1e
2ree in it.
0+ I thin3 I a8 !eginning to see what ...
,.G.: *ou are 1ind. *ou !ee nothing. .hen you actuay do !ee and percei#e 2or the 2ir!t ti'e
that there i! no !e2 to reai?e, no p!yche to puri2y, no !ou to i1erate, it (i co'e a! a
tre'endou! !hoc3 to that in!tru'ent. *ou ha#e in#e!ted e#erything in that66the !ou, 'ind,
p!yche, (hate#er you (i!h to ca it66and !uddeny it i! e:poded a! a 'yth. It i! di22icut 2or you
to oo3 at reaity, at your actua !ituation. @ne oo3 doe! the tric3< you are 2ini!hed.
0+ It is radi"al2 and 4erha4s a little dangerous2 to "all the s4irit2 the soul2 and God the
shoddy inventions o5 5rightened 8inds2 is it not6
,.G.: I don;t care. I a' ready to go. I don;t !ee anything other than the phy!ica acti#ity o2 the
1ody. +pirituaity i! the in#ention o2 the 'ind, and the 4INF I+ A 4*T%.
*our tradition! are cho3ing you. But, un2ortunatey, you don;t do anything. *ou actuay o#e
1eing cho3ed. *ou o#e the 1urden o2 the cutura gar1age6!ac3, the dead re2u!e o2 the pa!t. It
ha! to drop a(ay naturay. It 9u!t drop!. *ou don;t depend upon 3no(edge any'ore, e:cept a!
a u!e2u too to 2unction !aney in thi! (ord.
.anting ha! to go. .anting to 1e 2ree 2ro' !o'ething that i! not there i! (hat you ca 7!orro(7.
.anting to 1e 2ree 2ro' !orro( i! !orro(. There i! no other !orro(. *ou don;t (ant to 1e 2ree
2ro' !orro(. *ou 9u!t thin3 a1out !orro(, (ithout acting. *our thin3ing ende!!y a1out 1eing
2ree 2ro' !orro( i! ony 'ore 'ateria 2or !orro(. It Athin3ingB doe! not put an end to !orro(.
+orro( i! there 2or you a! ong a! you thin3. There i! actuay no !orro( there to 1e 2ree 2ro'.
Thin3ing a1out and !trugging again!t 7!orro(7 i! !orro(. +ince you can;t !top thin3ing, and
thin3ing i! !orro(, you (i a(ay! !u22er. There i! no (ay out, no e!cape ...
CHAT$, & + H#$ IS >#, T#M#,,#1 2 N#T T#DAY
0+ I would li3e to !e a!le to 8editate and have real 4ea"e o5 8ind.
,.G.: %a#e you 5ue!tioned thi! goa o2 your!, (hich 'a3e! sadhana nece!!ary8 .hy ta3e it 2or
granted that there i! !uch a thing a! 7peace o2 'ind.7 4ay1e it i! a 2a!e thing. I a' 9u!t a!3ing
the 5ue!tion to under!tand (hat particuar goa you ha#e. 4ay I a!3 that 5ue!tion8
0+ As I said2 I would li3e to have 4ea"e o5 8ind.
,.G.: .hen do you e:pect to ha#e it8 It i! a(ay! to'orro(, ne:t year. .hy8 .hy doe!
tran5uiity, or 5uietne!! o2 the 'ind, or (hate#er you choo!e to ca it, ony happen to'orro(<
(hy not no(8 Derhap! thi! di!tur1ance66thi! a1!ence o2 tran5uiity66i! cau!ed 1y the #ery
sadhana it!e2.
0+ It MUST !e 4ossi!le ...
,.G.: But (hy are you putting it o22 unti to'orro(8 *ou ha#e to 2ace the !ituation N@.. .hat
uti'atey do you (ant8
0+ 1hatever I do see8s 8eaningless. There is no sense o5 satis5a"tion. I 5eel that there
8ust !e so8ething higher than this.
,.G.: +uppo!e I !ay that thi! 'eaninge!!ne!! i! a there i! 2or you, a there can e#er 1e 2or
you. .hat (i you do8 The 2a!e and a1!urd goa you ha#e 1e2ore you i! re!pon!i1e 2or that
di!!ati!2action and 'eaninge!!ne!! in you. Fo you thin3 i2e ha! any 'eaning8 @1#iou!y you
don;t. *ou ha#e 1een tod that there is 'eaning, that there must 1e a 'eaning to i2e. *our
notion o2 the 7'eaning2u7 3eep! you 2ro' 2acing thi! i!!ue, and 'a3e! you 2ee that i2e ha! no
'eaning. I2 the idea o2 the 'eaning2u i! dropped, then you (i !ee 'eaning in (hate#er you
are doing in daiy i2e.
0+ %ut we all have to have an idea o5 a !etter2 8ore s4iritual li5e.
,.G.: .hate#er you (ant, e#en the !o6caed !piritua goa!, i! 'ateriai!tic in #aue. .hat, i2 I
'ay a!3, i! !o !piritua a1out it8 I2 you (ant to achie#e a !piritua goa, the in!tru'ent you u!e
(i 1e the !a'e (hich you u!e to achie#e 'ateriai!tic goa!, na'ey thought. *ou don;t
actuay do anything a1out it< you 9u!t thin3. +o you are 9u!t thin3ing that there 'u!t 1e !o'e
purpo!e to i2e. And 1ecau!e thought i! 'atter, it! o19ect66the !piritua or 'eaning2u i2e6i! a!o
'atter. +pirituaity i! 'ateriai!'. In any e#ent you do not act, you 9u!t thin3, (hich i! to
po!tpone. There i! !i'py nothing e!e thought can do.
That in!tru'ent caed thought, (hich you are e'poying to achie#e your !o6caed !piritua
goa!, i! the re!ut o2 the pa!t. Thought i! 1orn in ti'e, it 2unction! in ti'e, and any re!ut! it
!ee3! are 1ound to 1e in and o2 ti'e a!o. And ti'e i! po!tpone'ent, the to'orro(. Ta3e, 2or
e:a'pe, the 2act o2 !e2i!hne!!. It i! conde'ned, (hie !e2e!!ne!!, a pure creation o2 thin3ing,
i! to 1e !ought a2ter. It! reai?ation, ho(e#er, ie! a(ay! 9u!t ahead, to'orro(. *ou (i 1e
!e2e!! to'orro(, or the ne:t day, or, i2 there i! one, in the ne:t i2e. .hy i! it not po!!i1e 2or
you to 1e totay 2ree 2ro' !e2i!hne!! no(, today8 And do you reay (ant to 1e 2ree 2ro'
!e2i!hne!!8 *ou do not, and that i! (hy you ha#e in#ented (hat you ca !e2e!!ne!!, in the
'eanti'e re'aining !e2i!h. +o, you are not going to 1e !e2e!! at a, e#er, 1ecau!e the
in!tru'ent (hich you u!e to achie#e that !tate o2 !e2e!!ne!! or peace o2 'ind i! 'ateriai!tic
in #aue. .hate#er you do to 1e 2ree 2ro' !e2i!hne!! (i ony !trengthen and 2orti2y it. I a' not
!aying that you !houd there2ore 1e !e2i!h, ony that thin3ing a1out it! a1!tract oppo!ite, (hich
you ha#e caed 7!e2e!!ne!!,7 i! u!ee!!.
*ou ha#e a!o 1een tod that through 'editation you can 1ring !e2i!hne!! to an end. Actuay,
you are not 'editating at a, 9u!t thin3ing a1out !e2e!!ne!!, and doing nothing to 1e !e2e!!. I
ha#e ta3en that a! an e:a'pe, 1ut a other e:a'pe! are #ariation! o2 the !a'e thing. A
acti#ity aong the!e ine! i! e:acty the !a'e. *ou 'u!t accept the !i'pe 2act that you do not
(ant to 1e 2ree 2ro' !e2i!hne!!.
0+ I a8 8a3ing an e55ort to understand ...
,.G.: *ou are u!ing e22ort to 1e in an e22orte!! !tate. %o( the he can you u!e e22ort to 1e in an
e22orte!! !tate8 *ou thin3 that you can i#e an e22orte!! i2e through #oition, !trugge, and e22ort.
,n2ortunatey, that i! a you can do. "22ort i! a you 3no(. The 7you7, and e#erything it ha!
achie#ed, ha! 1een a re!ut o2 e22ort. "22orte!!ne!! through e22ort i! i3e peace through (ar.
%o( can you ha#e peace through (ar8
The 7peace o2 'ind7 you (ant i! an e:ten!ion o2 thi! (ar o2 e22ort and !trugge. +o i! 'editation
(ar2are. *ou !it 2or 'editation (hie there i! a 1atte raging (ithin you. The re!ut i! #ioent, e#i
thought! (eing up in!ide you. Ne:t, you try to contro or direct the!e 1ruta thought!, 'a3ing
'ore e22ort and #ioence 2or your!e2 in the proce!!.
0+ %ut there does see8 to !e so8ething li3e 4ea"e o5 8ind when one 5inishes one<s
4rayers or 8editations. How do you e74lain that6
,.G.: It i! the re!ut o2 !heer e:hau!tion, that;! a. *our atte'pt! to contro or !uppre!! your
thought! ony tire you out, 'a3ing you !ort o2 1atte6(eary. That i! the e22orte!!ne!! and peace
o2 'ind you are e:periencing. It i! not peace. I2 you (ant techni5ue! 2or thought contro, you
ha#e co'e to the (rong 'an.
0+ No sir2 I 5eel that I a8 !ene5ited !y tal3ing with you. Are you saying that no religious
"o88it8ent2 no s4iritual 4ath2 no sadhana is ne"essary6
,.G.: I !ay no. +o'e1ody e!e !ay! ye!. .here doe! that ea#e you8 ,nder!tanding your goa
i! the 'ain thing. To achie#e that goa i'pie! !trugge, 1atte, e22ort, (i, that i! a. There i! no
guarantee that you (i reach your goa. *ou assume the goa i! there. *ou ha#e in#ented the
goa to gi#e your!e2 ho)e. But hope 'ean! to'orro(. %ope i! nece!!ary 2or to'orro(, not 2or
today.
*ou 3no(. *ou (ant 'ore 3no(edge !o you can de#eop 1etter techni5ue! 2or reaching your
goa. *ou 3no( that there i! no guarantee that 'ore e:perience, 'ore 3no(edge, 'ore
!y!te'! and 'ore 'ethod! (i hep you reach your goa. *et you per!i!t< it i! a you 3no( ho(
to do. +eeing today de'and! action. +eeing to'orro( in#o#e! ony hope.
0+ 1hat is it that we are trying to see with the hel4 o5 te"hniques6

,.G.: *ou (ant to !ee 'eaning in your i2e. A! ong a! you per!i!t in !earching 2or a purpo!e or
'eaning to i2e, !o ong (hate#er you are doing (i !ee' purpo!ee!! and 'eaninge!!. The
hope you ha#e o2 2inding 'eaning i! (hat i! cau!ing the pre!ent !tate o2 'eaninge!!ne!!.
There 'ay not 1e any 'eaning other than thi!.
0+ It is understanda!le that 4eo4le should loo3 5or 8eaning in their lives2 isn<t it6
,.G.: The energy you are de#oting to the !earch, to techni5ue!, to your sadhana, or (hate#er
you (i!h to ca it, i! ta3ing a(ay the energy you need to i#e. *ou are o1!e!!ed (ith 2inding
'eaning in i2e, and that i! con!u'ing a ot o2 energy. I2 that energy i! reea!ed 2ro' the !earch
2or 'eaning, it can 1e u!ed to !ee the 2utiity o2 a !earch. Then your i2e 1eco'e! 'eaning2u
and the energy 'ay 1e u!ed 2or !o'e u!e2u purpo!e. >i2e, the !o6caed 'ateria i2e, ha! a
'eaning o2 it! o(n. But you ha#e 1een tod that it i! de#oid o2 'eaning and ha#e !uperi'po!ed
a 2ictitiou! ayer o2 7!piritua7 'eaning o#er it.
.hy !houd i2e ha#e any 'eaning8 .hy !houd there 1e any purpo!e to i#ing8 >i#ing it!e2 i!
a that i! there. *our !earch 2or !piritua 'eaning ha! 'ade a pro1e' out o2 i#ing. *ou ha#e
1een 2ed a thi! ru11i!h a1out the idea, per2ect, peace2u, purpo!e2u (ay o2 i2e, and you
de#ote your energie! to thin3ing a1out that rather than i#ing 2uy. In any ca!e you are i#ing, no
'atter (hat you are thin3ing a1out. >i2e ha! to go on.
0+ %ut isn<t that the goal o5 "ulture and edu"ation2 to tea"h us how to live6
,.G.: *ou are i#ing. A! !oon a! you introduce the 5ue!tion 7ho( to i#e87, you ha#e 'ade o2 i2e
a pro1e'. 7%o(7 to i#e ha! 'ade i2e 'eaninge!!. The 'o'ent you a!3 7ho(7, you turn to
!o'eone 2or an!(er!, 1eco'ing dependent.
0+ You are saying that all sear"h is doo8ed !e"ause there is nothing to a"hieve or
understand.
,.G.: There i! nothing to 1e achie#ed, nothing to acco'pi!h. Becau!e you ha#e created the
goa66!ay, !e2e!!ne!!66you re'ain !tuc3 in !e2i!hne!!. I2 the goa o2 !e2e!!ne!! i! not there,
are you !e2i!h8 *ou ha#e in#ented !e2e!!ne!! a! an o19ect to pur!ue, 'ean(hie continuing
to 1e !e2i!h. %o( can you e#er end your !e2i!hne!! a! ong a! you pur!ue !e2e!!ne!!8 A
certain a'ount o2 practica !e2i!hne!! i! nece!!ary 2or !ur#i#a, o2 cour!e, 1ut (ith you it ha!
1eco'e a tre'endou!, un!o#a1e pro1e'.
%ere there i! no need to !it in !pecia po!ture! and contro your 1reath. "#en (hie 'y eye! are
open, in 2act no 'atter (hat I a' doing, I a' in a !tate o2 samadhi. The 3no(edge you ha#e
a1out samadhi i! (hat i! 3eeping you a(ay 2ro' it. ,amadhi co'e! a2ter the ending o2 a you
ha#e e#er 3no(n, at death. The 1ody ha! to 1eco'e i3e a corp!e 1e2ore that 3no(edge, (hich
i! oc3ed into e#ery ce in the 1ody, cea!e!.
0+ You in5er that a "o84lete radi"al !rea3 with one<s 4ast is essential i5 one is to get
!eyond the 4revalent 8edio"rity2 i5 one is to live "reatively. %ut there have !een a great
8any intelligent2 inventive 4eo4le who have not undergone any death 4ro"ess or
4hysiologi"al ="ala8ity=2 as you "all it.
,.G.: *our highy prai!ed in#enti#ene!! !pring! 2ro' your thin3ing, (hich i! e!!entiay a
protecti#e 'echani!'. The 'ind ha! in#ented 1oth reigion and dyna'ite to protect (hat it
regard! a! it! 1e!t intere!t!. There i! no good or 1ad in thi! !en!e. Fon;t you !ee8 A the!e
1ad, 1ruta, terri1e peope, (ho !houd ha#e 1een ei'inated ong ago, are thri#ing and
!ucce!!2u. Fon;t thin3 that you can get o22 thi! 'erry6go6round, or that 1y pretending to 1e
!pirituay !uperior you are a#oiding any co'picity. *ou are the (ord< you are that. Thi! i! a I
a' pointing out.
0+ Are you also !rushing aside the "on"ern 5or what 8ight ha44en to one in a 5uture li5e6
I52 in a later li5e2 I shall rea4 what I have sown2 should I not !e "on"erned with how to !e
8oral6
,.G.: Da!t i#e!, 2uture i#e!, karma 66 the!e thing! are e'pha!i?ed in thi! !o6caed 7!piritua7
country. It i! a tota 2aiureM They !ay that they (i ha#e to !u22er 2or their 1ad action! in the
2uture, to'orro(. But (hat a1out no(8 .hy i! he getting a(ay (ith it no(8 .hy i! he !o
!ucce!!2u right no(8
0+ Des4ite the o!vious "haos and !rutality in the world2 8ost o5 us 5ind that ho4e
s4rings eternal and that love 8ust ulti8ately rule the world ...
,.G.: There i! no o#e in the (ord. "#ery1ody (ant! the !a'e thing. .ho!oe#er i! the 'o!t
ruthe!! get! it 66 a! ong a! he can get a(ay (ith it. Getting (hat you (ant in thi! (ord i! a
reati#ey ea!y thing, i2 you are ruthe!! enough. I had e#erything a 'an coud (ant, e#ery 3ind
o2 de!ira1e e:perience, and it a 2aied 'e. There2ore, I can ne#er reco''end 'y 7path7 to
anyone, ha#ing e#entuay 2aced the 2a!ene!! o2 that path 'y!e2 and re9ected it. I (oud ne#er
e#en hint that there (a! any #aidity in a tho!e e:perience! and practice!.
0+ Contrary to what you have said2 the great saviors and leaders o5 8an3ind have agreed
that ...
,.G.: The !aint!, !a#ior!, prie!t!, guru!, bhaga(ans, !eer!, prophet! and phio!opher! (ere a
(rong, a! 2ar a! I a' concerned. A! ong a! you har1or any hope or 2aith in the!e authoritie!,
i#ing or dead, !o ong thi! certainty cannot 1e tran!'itted to you. Thi! certainty !o'eho(
da(n! on you (hen you !ee 2or your!e2 that a o2 the' are (rong.
.hen you !ee a thi! 2or your!e2 2or the 2ir!t ti'e, you e:pode. That e:po!ion hit! i2e at a
point that ha! ne#er 1een touched 1e2ore. It i! a1!outey uni5ue. +o (hate#er I 'ay 1e !aying
cannot 1e true 2or you. The 'o'ent you !ee it 2or your!e2 you 'a3e (hat I a' !aying o1!oete
and 2a!e. A that ca'e 1e2ore i! negated in that 2ire. *ou can;t co'e into your o(n uni5uene!!
une!! the (hoe o2 hu'an e:perience i! thro(n out o2 your !y!te'. It cannot 1e done through
any #oition or the hep o2 anything. Then you are on your o(n.
0+ It see8s to 8e that a s4e"ial sort o5 valor is ne"essary 5or what you are des"ri!ing.
A8 I right6
,.G.: *e!. But it i! not courage in the u!ua !en!e. It i! not the courage you a!!ociate (ith
!trugge or o#erco'ing. The #aor I a' ta3ing a1out i! the courage that i! naturay there (hen
a thi! authority and 2ear i! thro(n out o2 the !y!te'. Courage i! not an in!tru'ent or 5uaity
you can u!e to get !o'e(here. The !topping o2 doing i! courage. The ending o2 tradition in you
i! courage.
0+ $ven with "ourage there is no guarantee that one isn<t wrong a!out li5e2 or that one is
not 8ista3en a!out the i84ortant things.
,.G.: .hen once you are 2reed 2ro' the pair! o2 oppo!ite! 66 right and (rong, good and 1ad 66
you (i ne#er 1e (rong. But unti then the pro1e' (i 1e there.
0+ ,ea"hing the end o5 o44osites has rather 5rightening i84li"ations ...
,.G.: It i! i3e accidentay touching a i#e (ire. *ou are 'uch too 2rightened to touch it through
your o(n #oition. By !heer accident thi! thing touche! you, 1urning e#erything ...
0+ In"luding the sear"h 5or God and 5reedo86
,.G.: It 1urn! out thi! !earch, the hunger. The hunger !top!, not 1ecau!e it i! !ati!2ied. The
hunger can ne#er 1e !atiated, e!peciay 1y the traditiona 2ood that i! o22ered. .ith the 1urning
a(ay o2 that hunger, the duaity cea!e!. That i! a.
There is a "ertain uneasiness when listening to you ...
,.G.: *ou are incapa1e o2 i!tening to anyone. *ou are the 'ediu' o2 'y e:pre!!ion. I re!pond
to your 5ue!tion!< I ha#e nothing o2 'y o(n. The e:pre!!ion o2 (hat i! here occur! 1ecau!e o2
you, not 'e. That 'ediu' 66 you 66 i! corrupt. The 'ediu' i! ony intere!ted in 'aintaining it!
o(n continuity. +o anything that happen! there i! aready dead.
0+ You see8 !ent u4on de8olishing everything other tea"hers have taught ...
,.G.: 4y intere!t i! not to 3noc3 o22 (hat other! ha#e !aid Athat i! too ea!yB, 1ut to 3noc3 o22
(hat * a' !aying. 4ore preci!ey, I a' trying to !top (hat you are 'a3ing out o2 (hat I a'
!aying. Thi! i! (hy 'y ta3ing !ound! contradictory to other!. I a' 2orced 1y the nature o2 your
i!tening to a(ay! negate the 2ir!t !tate'ent (ith another !tate'ent. Then the !econd
!tate'ent i! negated 1y a third, and !o on. 4y ai' i! not !o'e co'2y diaectica the!i!, 1ut the
tota negation o2 e#erything that can 1e e:pre!!ed. Anything you try to 'a3e out o2 'y
!tate'ent! i! not it.
*ou !en!e a 2re!hne!!, a i#ing 5uaity to (hat i! 1eing !aid here. That i! !o, 1ut thi! cannot 1e
u!ed 2or anything. It cannot 1e repeated. It i! (orthe!!. A you can do (ith it i! to try to
organi?e it< create organi?ation!, open !choo!, pu1i!h hoy 1oo3!, cee1rate 1irthday!, !ancti2y
hoy te'pe!, and the i3e, thu! de!troying any i2e it 'ay ha#e had in it. No indi#idua can 1e
heped 1y !uch thing!. They ony hep tho!e (ho (oud i#e 1y the gui1iity o2 other!.
0+ How e7a"tly did the syste8 5ree itsel5 5ro8 tradition in your "ase6
,.G.: 4y e:panation i! that there (a! an out1ur!t o2 energy, (hich i! uttery di22erent 2ro' the
energy that i! 1orn out o2 thin3ing. A !piritua, 'y!tica e:perience! are 1orn out o2 thought.
They are thought6induced !tate!, nothing 'ore. The energy here that i! 1urning a thought a! it
ari!e! tend! to accu'uate. "#entuay it ha! to e!cape. The phy!ica i'itation! o2 the 1ody act
a! o1!tace! to the e!cape o2 thi! uni5ue energy. .hen it e!cape! it goe! up, ne#er do(n, and
ne#er return!. .hen thi! e:traordinary energy 66 (hich i! ato'ic 66 e!cape!, it cau!e!
tre'endou! pain. It i! not the pain you are 2a'iiar (ith. It ha! nothing to do (ith it. I2 it did, the
1ody (oud 1e !hattered. It i! not 'atter con#erting into energy< it i! ato'ic. The proce!! goe!
on and on, (hie the pain co'e! and goe!. It i! i3e the tre'endou! reie2 (hen a tooth i!
e:tracted. That i! the 3ind o2 reie2 that i! there, not the !piritua. The tran!ation o2 thi! a! 1i!!
or 1eatitude i! #ery 'i!eading. Through thought anyone can create tho!e e:perience!< 1ut it i!
not actuay 1i!!. The rea thing i! not !o'ething that can 1e e:perienced. Anything you can
e:perience i! od. That 'ean! e#erything you e:perience or under!tand i! tradition.
In other (ord!, I a' trying to 2ree you not 2ro' the pa!t, the conditioning, 1ut, rather, 2ro' (hat I
a' !aying. I a' not !ugge!ting any (ay out 1ecau!e there i! no (ay. I ha#e !tu'1ed into thi!
and 2reed 'y!e2 2ro' the path! o2 other!. I can;t 'a3e the !a'e 'i!ta3e they did. I (i ne#er
!ugge!t that anyone u!e 'e a! a 'ode or 2oo( in 'y 2oot!tep!. 4y path can ne#er 1e your
path. I2 you atte'pt to 'a3e thi! your path, you (i get caught in a rut. No 'atter ho(
re2re!hing, re#outionary or 2anta!tic, it i! !ti a rut, a copy, a !econdhand thing. I 'y!e2 do not
3no( ho( I !tu'1ed into thi!, !o ho( do you e:pect 'e to gi#e it to another8
4y 'i!!ion, i2 there i! any, !houd 1e, 2ro' no( on, to de1un3 e#ery !tate'ent I ha#e 'ade. I2
you ta3e !eriou!y and try to u!e or appy (hat I ha#e !aid, you (i 1e in danger.
0+ Great tea"hers and seers in the $astern tradition have at least atte84ted to "onvey
so8e idea o5 higher states2 while you insist they are in"o88uni"a!le. 1hy6
,.G.: *ou ta3e 2or granted that they are (hat they !ay they are. I !ay it cannot 1e tran!'itted to
another 1ecau!e there i! nothing there to tran!'it. Neither i! there anything to renounce. .hat
i! it that the!e teacher! !ugge!t you !houd renounce8 "#en your !cripture! 66 the
-atho)anishad 66 !ay that you 'u!t renounce the #ery !earch it!e2. The renunciation o2
renunciation happen! not through practice, di!cu!!ion, 'oney, or inteect. The!e are the ea!t
o2 thing!. A rough tran!ation o2 the origina +an!3rit i!, 7.ho'!oe#er it choo!e!, to hi' it i!
re#eaed.7 I2 thi! i! !o, then (here i! the roo' 2or practice!, sadhana, and #oition8 It co'e!
rando'y, not 1ecau!e you de!er#e it.
I2 you are uc3y enough to ha#e thi! da(n on you, you (i die. It i! the continuity o2 thought that
die!. The 1ody ha! no death, it ony change! 2or'. The ending o2 thought i! the 1eginning o2
phy!ica death. .hat you e:perience i! the e'ptine!! o2 the #oid. But there i! no death 2or the
1ody at a. I a' !ure thi! i! o2 itte con!oation to you, though. /u!t (anting to 1e 2ree o2 egoi!'
i! in!u22icient< you 'u!t go through a cinica death to 1e 2ree 2ro' thought and egoi!'. The
1ody (i actuay get !ti22, the heart1eat !o(!, and you (i 1eco'e corp!e6i3e.
0+ The theory o5 rein"arnation also denies death2 !ut in a di55erent way. They s4ea3 o5 an
eternal atma or soul whi"h outlives the 4hysi"al death ...
,.G.: .hate#er an!(er! are gi#en regarding death, you are not !ati!2ied (ith the', and !o you
'u!t in#ent theorie! a1out reincarnation. .hat i! it that (i reincarnate8 "#en (hie you are
ai#e, (hat i! there8 I! there anything 1eyond the totaity o2 the 3no(edge (hich e:i!ted in!ide
you no(8 +o, i! there death at a, and i2 there i!, can it 1e e:perienced8
0+ So you will only "on5ir8 the e7isten"e o5 a natural state2 is that it6
,.G.: The idea! you ha#e a1out that natura !tate are totay unreated to (hat it actuay i!. *ou
are trying to capture and gi#e e:pre!!ion to (hat you hope i! that !tate. It i! an a1!urd e:erci!e.
.hat i! there i! ony the 'o#e'ent to capture, nothing e!e. A the re!t i! !pecuation.
CHAT$, ' + N#T @N#1ING IS Y#U, NATU,A. STAT$
0+ >ro8 our earlier tal3s with you it is evident that 8an has a wrong relationshi4 with his
3nowledge o5 hi8sel5 and the world. 1hat e7a"tly do you 8ean !y 3nowledge6
,.G.: )no(edge i! not !o'ething 'y!teriou! or a1!tract. I oo3 at the ta1e and a!3 'y!e2,
7.hat i! that87 +o do you. )no(edge i! 9u!t na'ing thing!. It te! you that that i! a 7ta1e7, that
I 7a' happy7 or 7'i!era1e7, that 7you are an enightened 'an and I a' not7. I! there anything
to thought other than thi!8
The 3no(edge you ha#e o2 the (ord create! the o19ect! you are e:periencing. The actua
e:i!tence or non6e:i!tence o2 !o'ething 7out there7 in the (ord i! not !o'ething you can
deter'ine or e:perience 2or your!e2, e:cept through the hep o2 your 3no(edge. And thi!
3no(edge i! not your!< it i! !o'ething (hich you and your ance!tor! ha#e accu'uated o#er a
ong ti'e. .hat you ca the 7act o2 3no(ing7 i! nothing other than thi! accu'uated 'e'ory.
*ou ha#e per!onay added to and 'odi2ied that 3no(edge, 1ut e!!entiay it doe!n;t 1eong to
you at a.
There i! nothing there in!ide you 1ut the totaity o2 thi! 3no(edge you ha#e accu'uated. That
i! (hat you are. *ou cannot e#en directy e:perience the reaity o2 the (ord in (hich you are
2unctioning, 'uch e!! !o'e (ord 1eyond. There i! no (ord 1eyond !pace and ti'e. It i! your
in#ention, 1a!ed upon the #ague pro'i!e! o2 the hoy 'en. @ur !en!e o2 #aue !pring! 2ro' the
(ord a! it i! i'po!ed on u!. .e 'u!t accept the (ord.
0+ So our !elie5 syste8 is also !ased u4on this 8e8ory ...6
,.G.: Neither i! 1eie2 an a1!traction. It i! an e:ten!ion o2 the !ur#i#a 'echani!' (hich ha!
operated 2or 'iion! o2 year!. Beie2 i! i3e any other ha1it, the 'ore you try to contro and
!uppre!! it, the !tronger it 1eco'e!. *our 5ue!tion i'pie! that you (ant to 1e 2ree 2ro'
!o'ething: in thi! ca!e it i! 1eie2. &ir!t o2 a, (hy do you (ant to 1e 2ree 2ro' it8 .hate#er you
are doing or hope to do to 1e 2ree 2ro' thi! ony add! 'o'entu' to it. Anything you do ha! no
#aue at a. .hy ha! thi! 1eco'e a pro1e' to you8 *ou are in no po!ition to deny or accept
(hat I a' !aying. *ou ha#e pro1a1y tried !o'e 3ind o2 !y!te' to contro your thought! and
1eie2!, and it ha! 2aied you. =epeating mantras, doing yoga, and prayer ha#e not heped. &or
(hate#er rea!on!, you ha#e not 1een a1e to contro your thought!. That i! a.
0+ %ut the re4eating o5 mantras and other sa"red te"hniques do see8 to quiet thought ...
,.G.: *ou cannot e#en o1!er#e your thought!, 'uch e!! contro the'. %o( can you po!!i1y
o1!er#e your thought!8 *ou ta3 a! though there i! !o'e entity in you !eparate 2ro' thought!.
It i! an iu!ion< your thought! are not !eparate 2ro' you. There i! no thin3ing. Thought cannot
da'age you. It i! your !eparati#e !tructure trying to contro, do'inate, cen!ure and u!e thought
that i! the pro1e'. Thought by itself can do no damage. It i! ony (hen you (ant to do
!o'ething (ith thought that you create pro1e'! 2or your!e2.
0+ .istening to you now see8s also to "reate 4ro!le8s 5or 8e.
,.G.: *ou !ay you are i!tening. "#en a! I !pea3 you are not i!tening to anything. *ou are not
i!tening to 'e, 1ut ony to your o(n thought!. I ha#e no iu!ion! a1out it. *ou cannot i!ten to
'e or any1ody. It i! u!ee!! trying to per!uade 'e that you are attenti#e, concerned, i!tening. I
a' not a 2oo.
0+ It is not so o!vious to 8e that I a8 not listening to you. I see8 to !e listening to you
and thin3ing a!out it si8ultaneously. Isn<t this 4ossi!le6
,.G.: It i! i'po!!i1e. There i! ony one action po!!i1e 2or you: thin3ing. The 1irth o2 thought
it!e2 i! action. The thin3er (ho !ay! he i! oo3ing at cau!e6and6e22ect i! hi'!e2 thought.
Thought create! the !pace 1et(een the thin3er and hi! thought!, and then te! hi'!e2, 7I a'
oo3ing at 'y thought!.7 I! it po!!i1e8 &orgetting a1out (hat ha! happened in the pa!t, try to
oo3 at your thought! at thi! #ery 'o'ent. I a' a!3ing you to do !o'ething (hich i! 5uite
!i'pe. I2 you (i te 'e ho( to oo3 at thought, I (i 1e your !tudent. I (i 1e #ery grate2u to
you. In!tead o2 oo3ing at thought, you 2ocu! on 'e. I2 you repeat a mantra, that i! thought. The
repetition o2 the mantra i! another thought. The idea that the!e repetiti#e thought! ha#e not
!ucceeded in producing the !tate you (ant i! another thought. The idea that you 'u!t 2ind a
ne( mantra or practice !o'e techni5ue that does (or3 i! another thought. .hat i! thought
other than thi!8 I (ant to 3no(.
0+ %ut all religions have stressed the i84ortan"e o5 su44ressing and "ontrolling
undesira!le thoughts. #therwise we would des"end to the level o5 ani8als.
,.G.: .e ha#e 1een 1rain(a!hed 2or centurie! 1y hoy 'en that (e 'u!t contro our thought!.
.ithout thin3ing you (oud 1eco'e a corp!e. .ithout thin3ing the hoy 'en (oudn;t ha#e any
'ean! o2 teing u! to contro our thought!. They (oud go 1ro3e. They ha#e 1eco'e rich teing
other! to contro their thought!.
0+ %ut2 surely2 there are qualitative di55eren"es in the way thoughts are "ontrolled.
,.G.: *ou ha#e ar1itrariy 'ade the!e di!tinction!. Thin3ing i! part o2 i2e, and i2e i! energy.
%a#ing a ga!! o2 1eer or !'o3ing a cigarette i! e:acty the !a'e a! repeating prayer!, hoy
(ord!, and !cripture!. Going to the pu1 or the te'pe i! e:acty the !a'e< it i! a 5uic3 2i:. *ou
attach !pecia !igni2icance to the prayer! and te'pe!, 2or no rea!on other than that it i! your
pre9udice and that it 'a3e! you 2ee !uperior to tho!e (ho 2re5uent pu1! and 1ordeo!.
0+ So it is all an atte84t to 8odi5y or "hange in so8e way 8y "onditioning ...
,.G.: Conditioning i! tradition. The +an!3rit (ord 2or it i! samskara. Tradition i! (hat you are 66
(hat you ca you. No 'atter ho( you 'ay 'odi2y it, it continue!. In i2e e#erything i! te'porary,
and the atte'pt to gi#e continuity to conditioning 66 (hich i! 1a!ed upon thought 66 i!
pathoogica in nature. *ou treat the p!ychoogica and the pathoogica a! i2 they (ere t(o
di22erent thing!. Actuay there i! ony the pathoogica there. *our samskara, the conditioning
that 'a3e! you 2ee !eparate 2ro' your!e2 and the (ord, i! pathoogica.
.here i! thi! conditioning you ta3 o2 ...8 .here are the thought! ocated8 They are not in the
1rain. Thought! are not 'anu2actured 1y the 1rain. It i!, rather, that the 1rain i! i3e an antenna,
pic3ing up thought! on a co''on (a#eength, a co''on thought6!phere.
.ll your action!, (hether thin3ing o2 God or 1eating a chid, !pring 2ro' the !a'e !ource 66
thin3ing. The thought! the'!e#e! cannot do any har'. It i! (hen you atte'pt to u!e, cen!or,
and contro tho!e thought! to get !o'ething that your pro1e'! 1egin. *ou ha#e no recour!e
1ut to u!e thought to get (hat you (ant in thi! (ord. But (hen you !ee3 to get (hat doe! not
e:i!t 66 God, 1i!!, o#e, etc. 66 through thought, you ony !ucceed in pitting one thought again!t
another, creating 'i!ery 2or your!e2 and the (ord.
.hen the thought !tructure, pre!!ed into the !er#ice o2 2ear and hope, cannot achie#e (hat it
(ant!, or cannot 1e certain, it introduce! (hat you ca 72aith7. .here i! the need 2or 1eie2, or it!
ater6ego 2aith8 .hen your 1eie2! ha#e gotten you no(here, you are tod you 'u!t cuti#ate
2aith. In other (ord!, you 'u!t ha#e hope. .hether you are !ee3ing God, or 1i!!, peace o2
'ind, or, 'ore tangi1y, happine!!, you end up reying on hope, 1eie2, and 2aith. The!e
dependencie! are the to3en! o2 your 2aiure to get the re!ut! you de!ire.
0+ 1hat is the relationshi4 !etween thought "onditioning2 and what we "all desire6
,.G.: *our de!ire!, i3e your thought! in genera, are to 1e !uppre!!ed and controed at a
co!t!. Thi! approach ony enriche! the hoy 'en. .hy the he do you (ant to 1e in (hat you
ca 7a de!iree!! !tate7 anyho(8 .hat 2or8 I can a!!ure you that (hen you ha#e no de!ire you
(i 1e carried a! a corp!e to the 1uria ground.
.e ha#e 1een tod 1y the hoy 'en that to ha#e de!ire! i! (rong. They 'u!t 1e !uppre!!ed or
changed into a higher order o2 de!ire!, 7tran!2or'ed7. It i! hog(a!h. "ither you 2u2i tho!e
de!ire! or you 2ai to 2u2i tho!e de!ire!. That i! the pro1e'. In either ca!e de!ire (i ari!e.
Atte'pting to do nothing i! a!o u!ee!!. It Ai.e., doing nothingB i! part o2 your genera !trategy to
get !o'ething. It ha! to 1urn it!e2 out. The samskara, or conditioning, athough capa1e o2
1eing 1urnt out, cannot be seen. *ou can ne#er oo3 at de!ire. +eeing de!ire (i 1ind you.
*our cuture, your phio!ophy, your !ociety ha! conditioned you, and no( you thin3 you can
change or in !o'e (ay 'odi2y that conditioning. It i! i'po!!i1e, 2or you are !ociety.
0+ 1e do not want to !e 5ree o5 "onditioning. It is too 5rightening to "onte84late. 1e are
too inse"ure.
,.G.: "#ery thought that i! 1orn ha! to die. It i! (hat they ca the death (i!h. I2 a thought doe!
not die, it cannot 1e re1orn. It ha! to die, and (ith it you die. But you don;t die (ith each thought
and 1reath. *ou hoo3 up each thought (ith the ne:t, creating a 2a!e continuity. It i! that
continuity that i! the pro1e'. *our in!ecurity !pring! 2ro' your re2u!a to 2ace the te'porary
nature o2 thought. It i! a itte ea!ier to ta3 to tho!e (ho ha#e atte'pted thought contro 66 (ho
ha#e done !o'e sadhana 66 1ecau!e they e:perience the 2utiity o2 it and can !ee (here they
are 7hung up7.
0+ I su44ose2 then2 that it is the tradition and "onditioning that has "reated the 8oral
dile88a 5or us ...6
,.G.: @ny the 'an (ho i! capa1e o2 i''oraity can ta3 o2 'oraity. There i! no !uch thing a!
i''oraity 2or 'e. I cannot !it and preach 'oraity. That i! a. I ta3e no 'ora po!ition! at a.
The one (ho ta3! o2 'ora!, o#e, and co'pa!!ion i! a hu'1ug.
*our 'oraity or the ac3 o2 it i! o2 no i'portance co'pared to the 2act that you are dead. *ou
are a(ay! operating in and through your dead 'e'ory. 4e'ory i! nothing 'ore than the !a'e
od non!en!e repeating it!e2, that;! a. A you 3no(, or can e#er 3no(, i! 'e'ory, and
'e'ory i! thought. *our cea!ee!! thin3ing i! ony gi#ing you continuity. .hy do you ha#e to do
that a the ti'e8 It i! not (orth it. *ou are (earing your!e2 out. .hen there i! a need 2or it, one
can under!tand. .hy do you ha#e to !eparate your!e2 2ro' your action! and te your!e2 a the
ti'e, 7No( I a' happy,7 7No( I 2ee I 1eong,7 7No( I 2ee aone.7 .hy8 *ou are con!tanty
'onitoring and cen!oring your action! and 2eeing!: 7No( I 2ee thi!, No( I 2ee that<7 7I (ant to
1e that,7 7I !houd not ha#e done that.7 *ou are 'uing o#er the 2uture or the pa!t a the ti'e,
o1i#iou! to the pre!ent. There i! no 2uture in reation to your pro1e'. Any !oution you thin3 o2
i! in the 2uture, and i!, there2ore, u!ee!!. I2 there i! anything that can happen, it 'u!t happen
N@.. +ince you don;t (ant anything to happen N@., you pu!h it a(ay into !o'ething you
ha#e na'ed 7the 2uture7. .hat you ha#e in pace o2 the pre!ent i! &"A=. Then 1egin! the
(hoe e:hau!ting !earch 2or a (ay to 1e 2ree 2ro' 2ear. Fo you reay (ant T%I+ 3ind o2
2reedo'8 I !ay you do not.
Anything you (ant to 1e 2ree 2ro', 2or (hate#er rea!on, i! the #ery thing that can 2ree you. *ou
ha#e to 1e 2ree 2ro' the #ery thing you (ant to 1e 2ree 2ro'. *ou are a(ay! deaing (ith a pair
o2 oppo!ite!< !o 1eing 2ree o2 one i! to 1e 2ree 2ro' the other, it! oppo!ite. .ithin the 2ra'e(or3
o2 the oppo!ite! there i! no 2reedo'. That i! (hy I a(ay! !ay, 7*ou ha#en;t got a chance ...7
>i3e(i!e, the 'an (ho i! not concerned (ith 'oraity (i not 1e intere!ted in i''oraity. The
an!(er to !e2i!hne!! ie! in !e2i!hne!!, not a 2ictitiou! oppo!ite caed !e2e!!ne!!. &reedo'
2ro' anger ie! in anger, not in non6anger. &reedo' 2ro' greed ie! in greed, not in non6greed.
The (hoe reigiou! 1u!ine!! i! nothing 1ut 'ora code! o2 conduct: you 'u!t 1e generou!,
co'pa!!ionate, o#ing, (hie a the ti'e you re'ain greedy and caou!. Code! o2 conduct are
!et 1y !ociety in it! o(n intere!t!, !acred or pro2ane. There i! nothing reigiou! a1out it. The
reigiou! 'an put! the prie!t, the cen!or, in!ide you. No( the poice'an ha! 1een
in!titutionai?ed and paced out!ide you. =eigiou! code! and !tricture! are no onger
nece!!ary< it i! a in the ci#i and cri'ina code!.
*ou needn;t 1other (ith the!e reigiou! peope any'ore< they are o1!oete. But they don;t (ant
to o!e their hod o#er peope. It i! their 1u!ine!!< their i#eihood i! at !ta3e. There i! no
di22erence 1et(een the poice'an and the reigiou! 'an. It i! a itte 'ore di22icut (ith the
poice'an, 2or, uni3e the inner authority !pon!ored 1y the hoy 'en, he ie! out!ide you and
'u!t 1e 1ri1ed.
0+ The hel4lessness o5 the average 8an to solve these !asi" dile88as is a"3nowledged
!y 8any religions. See3ers are dire"ted2 there5ore2 to a sage2 savior or avatara. Yet you
deny even this sour"e o5 hel4 and ins4iration2 do you not6
,.G.: .hen you are !u22ering greaty and are #ery depre!!ed, the 1ody 2a! a!eep. It i!
nature;! (ay o2 handing the !ituation. @r you u!e repetiti#e (ord! a! a !opori2ic 66 (hat you ca
7'a)a7 66 and go into !ound !eep. *ou in#ent a na'e i3e =a'a, repeat it ende!!y, and hope to
get !o'e 1ene2it. &ir!t o2 a you ha#e in#ented =a'a. =a'a doe!n;t e:i!t e:cept a! an
hi!torica 2igure. %a#ing created the 'on!ter, you (or!hip and then !ay you can;t get out o2 it.
It;! aright (ith 'e i2 you continue (ith your 7/am Nam7 ...
0+ The re4etition o5 holy na8es is a sin"ere e55ort to 5ind so8ething trans"ending the
transient2 so8ething 8ore 4er8anent ...
,.G.: There i! no per'anence. The atte'pt to attain per'anent happine!! and uninterrupted
pea!ure i! ony cho3ing the 1ody, doing it #ioence. *our !earch 2or happine!! ony !ucceed! in
de!troying the !en!iti#ity and inteigence o2 the ner#ou! !y!te'. .anting (hat doe! not e:i!t 66
the ro'antic, reigiou!, !piritua !tu22 66 ony add! 'o'entu' to that 2a!e continuity (hich
de!troy! the 1ody. It i! radicay di!tur1ing the che'ica 1aance o2 the 1ody. The 1ody, (hich i!
ony intere!ted in !ur#i#a and procreation, treat! 1oth pain and pea!ure ai3e. It i! *@, (ho
in!i!t on !topping pain and e:tending pea!ure. The 1ody;! re!pon!e to 1oth pea!ure and pain
i! the !a'e 66 it groan!.
.hat doe! the 1ody (ant8 It doe!n;t (ant anything e:cept to 2unction. A other thing! are the
in#ention! o2 thought. The 1ody ha! no !eparate independent e:i!tence o2 it! o(n apart 2ro'
pea!ure and pain. The #ariou! #i1ration! a22ecting the 1ody 'ay di22er in inten!ity, 1ut it i! you
(ho di#ide the' into good and 1ad.
*ou are con!tanty tran!ating #i1ration! that hit the 1ody into e:perience!. *ou touch the ta1e
and it i! 7hard7, you touch the pio( and it i! 7!o2t7, you touch the (o'an;! ar' there and it i!
7!e:y7, and you touch the door3no1 and it i! 7not6!e:y7. .ithout the con!tant tran!ation o2 the
!en!ory acti#ity you ha#e no (ay o2 3no(ing i2 !o'ething i! hard, or !o2t, or !e:y. The 1ody;!
natura inteigence i! correcty 7proce!!ing7 the !en!ory input (ithout your ha#ing to do a thing.
It i! !i'iar to ho( the 1ody turn! o#er 'any ti'e! during !eep (ithout your 1eing a(are o2 it,
'uch e!! trying to contro it. The 1ody i! handing it!e2.
*ou are a the ti'e inter2ering (ith the natura 2unctioning o2 the ner#ou! !y!te'. .hen a
!en!ation hit! your ner#ou! !y!te' the 2ir!t thing you do i! to na'e it and categori?e it a!
pea!ure or pain. The ne:t !tep i! that you (ant to continue the pea!ura1e !en!ation! and
sto) the pain2u !en!ation!. &ir!t, the recognition o2 a !en!ation a! pea!ure or pain i! it!e2
pain2u. +econd, the atte'pt to e:tend the i2e o2 one 3ind o2 !en!ation A7pea!ure7B, and to !top
another 3ind o2 !en!ation A7pain7B, i! a!o pain2u. Both acti#itie! are cho3ing the 1ody. In the
#ery nature o2 thing! e#ery !en!ation ha! it! o(n inten!ity and duration. The atte'pt to e:tend
pea!ure and !top pain ony !ucceed! in de!troying the !en!iti#ity o2 the 1ody and it! a1iity to
re!pond to !en!ation!. +o, (hat you are doing i! #ery pain2u 2or the 1ody.
I2 you do nothing (ith the !en!ation!, you (i 2ind that they 'u!t di!!o#e into the'!e#e!. That
i! (hat I 'ean (hen I !pea3 o2 the 7ioni?ation o2 thought7. That i! (hat I 'eant 1y 1irth and
death. There i! no 7death7 2or the 1ody, ony di!integration. Thought 1eing 'ateria, a it!
pur!uit! are 'ateria. That i! (hy your !o6caed !piritua pur!uit! ha#e no 'eaning. Fon;t get
'e (rong, I a' not again!t u!ing thought to get (hat you need< you ha#e no other too at your
di!po!a.
+o, the 1ody i! intere!ted ony in it! !ur#i#a. A that are nece!!ary 2or i2e are the !ur#i#a and
reproducti#e !y!te'!. That i! nature;! (ay. Why i2e (ant! to reproduce it!e2 i! another 'atter.
The ony (ay the hu'an organi!' can !ur#i#e and en!ure it! reproduction i! through thought.
+o thought i! #ery i'portant and e#en e!!entia to the i#ing organi!'. Thought deter'ine!
(hether there i! action or no action. A ani'a! ha#e the!e !ur#i#a thought!, 1ut, in the ca!e o2
'an, the 2actor o2 recognition i! introduced, co'picating the (hoe thing enor'ou!y. .e ha#e
!uperi'po!ed o#er the natura !en!ory 2unctioning a ne#er6ending #er1ai?ation.
The 1ody i! not at a intere!ted in p!ychoogica or !piritua 'atter!. *our highy prai!ed
!piritua e:perience! are o2 no #aue to the organi!'. In 2act they are pain2u to the 1ody. >o#e,
co'pa!!ion, ahimsa, under!tanding, 1i!!, a the!e thing! (hich reigion and p!ychoogy ha#e
paced 1e2ore 'an, are ony adding to the !train o2 the 1ody. .ll cuture!, (hether o2 the @rient
or o2 the @ccident, ha#e created thi! op!ided !ituation 2or 'an3ind and turned 'an into a
neurotic indi#idua. In!tead o2 1eing (hat you are 66 un3ind 66 you pur!ue the 2ictitiou! oppo!ite
put 1e2ore you 66 3indne!!. To e'pha!i?e (hat (e +%@,>F 1e ony cau!e! !train, gi#ing
'o'entu' to (hat (e aready in 2act are. In nature (e 2ind the ani'a! at one ti'e #ioent and
1ruta, at other! 3ind and generou!. &or the' there i! no contradiction. But 'an i! tod he 'u!t
1e a(ay! good, 3ind, o#ing, and ne#er greedy or #ioent. .e e'pha!i?e ony one !ide o2
reaity, thu! di!torting the (hoe picture. Thi! trying to ha#e one (ithout the other i! creating
tre'endou! !train, !orro(, pain, and 'i!ery 2or 'an. 4an 'u!t 2ace the nece!!ary #ioence in
i2e< you 'u!t 3i to i#e, one 2or' o2 i2e thri#e! on another. And yet you ha#e conde'ned 3iing.
0+ I5 you don<t 8ind2 I would li3e to dis"uss another to4i" with you. 1hat is the
"onne"tion !etween dee4 slee4 and death6 In either "ase the =8e= is a!sent2 and yet
they see8 di55erent.
,.G.: .hy are you ta3ing o2 deep !eep8 I2 there i! any !uch thing a! deep !eep, it;! not
po!!i1e 2or the !eeping per!on to 3no( anything a1out it. +o don;t ta3 o2 deep !eep< it i!
!o'ething you can ne#er 3no(. The actua deep, natura, pro2ound !eep natura to the 1ody
ha! nothing to do (ith poetic !tu22 i3e 7dying to a your ye!terday!.7 At the pro2ounde!t e#e! o2
re!t, or deep !eep, the (hoe 1ody goe! through the death proce!!, and 'ay or 'ay not return
to #igor and nor'a (a3ing !tate!. I2 it co'e! around and i! re#i#ed, it 'ean! that the 1ody ha!
not o!t it! a1iity to re9u#enate it!e2. .hat i! e2t there a2ter thi! death i! 2ree to carry on a2ter it!
rene(a. Actuay, you are 1orn and die (ith e#ery 1reath you ta3e. That i! (hat i! 'eant 1y
death and re1irth.
*our thought !tructure denie! the reaity o2 death. It !ee3! continuity at a co!t!. I a' not
in2or'ing you a1out deep !eep or any other theorie!, 1ut ony pointing out that i2 you go deep
enough the 7you7 di!appear!, the 1ody goe! through an actua cinica death, and that, in !o'e
ca!e!, the 1ody can rene( it!e2. At that point the entire hi!tory o2 the indi#idua, ocated in the
1ody;! genetic !tructure, no onger !eparate! it!e2 2ro' i2e and 2a! into it! o(n rhyth'. &ro'
then on it cannot !eparate it!e2 2ro' anything.
.hat you e:perience in your ordinary !uper2icia !eep i! nature pu!hing do(n the thought! !o
that the 1ody and 1rain can re!t. I2 the thought! are not e22ecti#ey pu!hed do(n into the
!u1terraneou! region!, there (i 1e no !eep. But a2ter thi! deep !eep, there i! no 'ore !eep
2or the 1ody. The entity that (a! there 1e2ore in2or'ing it!e2, 7No( I a' a!eep7 and 7No( I a'
a(a3e7 i! no onger to 1e 2ound. *ou can no onger create thi! di#i!ion in con!ciou!ne!!
1et(een (a3ing and !eeping. +o don;t 1other theori?ing a1out 7thoughte!! !tate!<7 (hen
thought i! 2ini!hed, you die. ,nti then a ta3 o2 thoughte!! !tate! are the !iy product! o2
thought trying to gi#e it!e2 continuity 1y 1eie#ing and !earching out a 7thoughte!! !tate7. I2 you
ha#e e#er 2ancied your!e2 to 1e in a thoughte!! !tate, it 'ean! that thought (a! there.
0+ The yogins 8aintain that it is 4ossi!le to e7tend nor8al wa3ing "ons"iousness into
the real8s usually guarded !y slee42 that is2 into the un"ons"ious.
,.G.: *ou need not practice any yogic techni5ue! in order to e:perience the!e thing!. By ta3ing
drug! you can ha#e a the!e e:perience!. I a' not at a ad#ocating drug! any 'ore than I a'
ad#ocating yoga. I a' 9u!t pointing out that a e:perience i! 1orn out o2 thought and i! in a the
e!!entia! identica. I2 you ca the!e yogic or drug6induced !tate! 1i!!2u, 'ore pro2ound, or in
any (ay 'ore pea!ura1e than 7ordinary7 e:perience!, you are !trengthening the ego and
2orti2ying the !eparati#e !tructure 1y (a!ting your thought! tran!ating !en!ation! into higher or
o(er and pea!ura1e or pain2u. Anything you e:perience a! energy i! thought6induced energy.
It i! not the energy o2 i2e.
0+ 1hat you are saying is "ontrary to what the religions and saints have ...
,.G.: The 7guru!7 can !ay (hat they (ant. The 1oo3! can !ay a they i3e. It i! ad#antageou! to
the'. They are in the 2ithy 'ar3etpace !eing !o'e !hoddy good!.
0+ %ut they say ...
,.G.: &orget the'. .hat are you, e!!entiay8 .hat do you ha#e to !ay8 *ou ha#e nothing to
!ay. To !it and 5uote another i! ea!y, 1ut (i do no good here.
>oo3. In thi! !tate there i! no di#i!ion. @ur !ituation i! that I cannot tran!'it and you cannot
recei#e that 2act. In addition to it, you ha#e gone one !tep 2urther and created a 'ore co'pe:
pro1e' 2or your!e2 1y pacing the undi#ided !tate out!ide your!e2 a! you are< thi! 'ean!
!earch. To !earch i! to 1e cunning. The !earch 2or peace i! duing the natura peace2une!! o2
the 1ody. *our 3no(edge and !earch are 'eaninge!! 1ecau!e there i! nothing in!ide the
di#i!ion you ha#e created around you.
0+ %e"ause you disagree with some o5 the great tea"hings in some things2 is that any
reason to so ruthlessly !rush aside the entire s4iritual heritage o5 8an3ind6
,.G.: It i! a (orthe!! a! 2ar a! you are concerned. It i! a 'enu (ithout the 'ea. It i! a a
!ae! pitch. It ha! re!uted in hypocri!y and co''erciai!'. There i! !o'ething radicay (rong
(ith it. I2 there i! anything good, it cannot produce anything 1ad. @1#iou!y, reigion! are 2a!e 66
reigion, !pirituaity, !ociety, you, your property, your 'oti#e! and #aue!, the (hoe thing.
0+ It 8ay !e that the 8eans have !een "orru4ted2 as you say. %ut the goal ::!liss::see8s
to !e a 5unda8ental urge. Is this not so6
,.G.: Bi!! 66 (hat i! that8 Are you in a 1i!!2u !tate8 *ou !ay that the atma i! 1i!!2u, 5uoting
your guru! and 74andu3ya ,pani!had7 A1B. It i! 2a!e, 9un3 2ood. *ou don;t ha#e to induge in a
thi! non!en!e to 1e 2ree 2ro' it. *ou need not 1e a 2or'er drun3ard in order to appreciate
!o1riety.
0+ %ut it is so e7traordinary to read the s"ri4tures2 they are ins4irational ...
,.G.: .hat do the!e (ord! 'ean to you8 .hat do a the!e +an!3rit (ord! 'ean to you8 Fon;t
!tart repeating (hat you ha#e read. Fo you ha#e anything to !ay (ith regard to the (ay you are
actuay 2unctioning right no(8 That i! (hat i! #ery i'portant, not (hat +a'3araA$B or !o'eone
e!e ha! !aid. I a' not here to teach you anything. Thi! i! not a didactic or in!tructiona
e:erci!e. The 2act that you ha#e cho!en to co'e here and a!3 the!e 5ue!tion! 'ean! that a
tho!e guru! and !cripture! ha#e 2aied you, doe! it not8 I2 you do not co'e here, you (i go
!o'e(here e!e. .ord! ony ha#e a #ague a1!tract 'eaning 2or you< other(i!e, they ha#e no
ree#ance to you at a.
0+ All this has !een a !it disillusioning. May I go and "ontinue this "onversation
to8orrow6
,.G.: @2 cour!e.
0+ Than3 you.
,.G.: .here i! !pace8 I! there !pace (ithout the 2our (a!8 .hat te! you that there i!
!o'ething caed !pace8 Fon;t repeat (hat other! ha#e !aid on thi! 5ue!tion8 .ithout thought
i! there !pace at a8 There i! not. Thought create! ti'e a! (e a! !pace. The 'o'ent thought
i! there, there i! ti'e and !pace.
Thought ha! created to'orro(. *ou 2ee hopee!! 1ecau!e you ha#e created to'orro(;! hope.
*our ony chance i! no( 66 no hope i! nece!!ary. Neither i! the idea o2 !e2 or atma #aid. I tried
!o hard to 2ind one. It (a! (rongy put together 1y the phio!opher!.
Thought i! 1ody, thought i! i2e, thought i! !e:. *ou are the thought. Thought i! you. I2 there i!
no thought, you are not there. There i! no (ord, i2 thought i! not there.
0+ My God2 what a 8essB How "an I save 8ysel5 5ro8 all this6 It is a sad destiny to
"onte84late.
,.G.: *ou ha#e to 1e !a#ed 2ro' the #ery idea that you ha#e to 1e !a#ed. *ou 'u!t 1e !a#ed
2ro' the !a#ior!, redee'ed 2ro' the redee'er!. I2 it i! to happen, it 'u!t happen now. 4y
(ord! cannot penetrate the unacy there. It i! the 'adne!! o2 the !piritua !earch that 'a3e!
you un'o#ed and i'per#iou! to 'y (ord!. The ine 1et(een the 'ad'an and the 'y!tic i! a
#ery, #ery thin one. The 'ad'an i! regarded a! a cinica ca!e, (hie the other, the 'y!tic, i!
e5uay pathoogica.
&orget the ro!arie!, the !cripture!, the a!he! on your 2orehead. .hen you !ee 2or your!e2 the
a1!urdity o2 your !earch, the (hoe cuture i! reduced to a!he! in!ide you. Then you are out o2
that. Tradition i! 2ini!hed 2or you. No 'ore ga'e!. Cedanta 'ean! the end o2 3no(edge. +o
(hy (rite 'ore hoy 1oo3!, open 'ore !choo!, pre!er#e 'ore teaching!8 The 1urning up
in!ide you o2 e#erything you (ant i! the 'eaning o2 a!he!. .hen you 3no( nothing, you !ay a
ot. .hen you 3no( !o'ething, there i! nothing to !ay.
0+ The state o5 not 3nowing you des"ri!e is related to another level o5 "ons"iousness.
1hat has it got to do with 8e2 an ordinary neuroti" 4erson6
,.G.: What e#e! o2 con!ciou!ne!!8 There are no e#e! o2 con!ciou!ne!!. A(arene!! i! no
di22erent in the (a3ing !tate than in the !eeping !tate. "#en (hie you are !itting here you are
drea'ing. There cannot 1e drea'ing (ithout i'age!. .hen you are ying in 1ed you ca it
drea'ing, (hen !itting (ith the eye! open you ca it !o'ething e!e, that i! a. &or 'e the!e
i'age! are a1!ent, (hether I a' in a 7(a3ing7 or a 7!eeping7 !tate. I cannot 2or' any i'age at
any ti'e. It doe! not 'atter here (hether the eye! are open or co!ed. The ony thing that i!
there in that indi#iduai?ed con!ciou!ne!! i! the !ure re2ection o2 (hat i! pre!ented to it. *ou do
not na'e it. The 'o#e'ent or de!ire to 3no( (hat it i! !i'py i! not there. I ha#e no (ay o2
3no(ing or e:periencing thi! !o6caed (a3e2u !tate. I can 'echanicay e:pain the (a3e2u
!tate, 1ut thi! doe! N@T i'py that there i! !o'eone there (ho )N@.+ T%AT %" I+ A.A)".
The e:panation! don;t 'ean a thing. That i! (hy I 'aintain that your natura !tate i! one o2 7not
3no(ing7.
0+ Most s"hools o5 religion and 4sy"hology re"o88end the e74ansion or intensi5i"ation
o5 awareness as a 8eans to a 8ore 5ul5illed li5e2 as2 5or e7a84le2 through thera4y. Is this
what you are tal3ing a!out :: so8e 3ind o5 awareness thera4y6
,.G.: No. A(arene!! i! a !i'pe acti#ity o2 the 1rain. It cannot 1e u!ed to 1ring a1out any
change, incuding a therapeutic one. .e ha#e !uperi'po!ed a na'ing proce!! o#er thi! natura
phy!ioogica a(arene!!, an a(arene!! (e !hare, incidentay, (ith the other ani'a!.
A(arene!! and the 'o#e'ent or tendency in you to 1ring a1out change in you are t(o di22erent
thing! entirey. That di22erence cannot 1e percei#ed 1y you, 2or there i! no perception (ithout
the percei#er. Can you 1eco'e con!ciou! o2 anything e:cept through the 'ediu' o2 'e'ory
and thought8 4e'ory i! 3no(edge. "#en your 2eeing! are 'e'ory. The !ti'uu! and the
re!pon!e 2or' one unitary 'o#e'ent 66 they cannot 1e neaty !eparated.
In other (ord!, you cannot e#en di22erentiate the !ti'uu! 2ro' the re!pon!e< there i! no
di#iding ine, e:cept (hen thought !tep! in and create! one. Thought, a! 'e'ory and
3no(edge, ha! created thi! 'echani!'. The ony (ay it can perpetuate it!e2 i! to gather
3no(edge, to 3no( 'ore and 'ore, to a!3 'ore and 'ore 5ue!tion!. A! ong a! you are
!ee3ing you (i 1e a!3ing 5ue!tion!, and the 5ue!tioning 'echani!' ony add! 'ore
'o'entu' to the na'ing proce!!.
0+ %ut let us not sell thought short. It "an "a4ture 8any wonder5ul things ...
,.G.: Thought can ne#er capture the 'o#e'ent o2 i2e, it i! 'uch too !o(. It i! i3e ightning and
thunder. They occur !i'utaneou!y, 1ut !ound, tra#eing !o(er than ight, reache! you ater,
creating the iu!ion o2 t(o !eparate e#ent!. It i! ony the natura phy!ioogica !en!ation! and
perception! that can 'o#e (ith the 2o( o2 i2e. There i! no 5ue!tion o2 capturing or containing
that 'o#e'ent. .e i3e to u!e the (ord con!ciou!ne!! gi1y, a! i2 (e are inti'atey 2a'iiar
(ith it. Actuay, con!ciou!ne!! i! !o'ething (e (i ne#er 3no(.
0+ So atte84ts to sus4end thought so8ehow ho4ing to !e 4urely aware is !ogus6
,.G.: A! 2ar a! I a' concerned (e 1eco'e con!ciou! o2 !o'ething ony through 'e'ory,
3no(edge. @ther(i!e !pace, and the !eparati#e con!ciou!ne!! it create!, are not there. There
i! no !uch thing a! oo3ing at !o'ething (ithout the inter2erence o2 3no(edge. To oo3 you
need !pace, and thought create! that !pace. +o !pace it!e2, a! a di'en!ion, e:i!t! ony a! a
creation o2 thought. Thought ha! a!o tried to theori?e a1out the !pace it ha! created, in#enting
the 7ti'e6!pace6continuu'7. Ti'e i! an independent re2erence or 2ra'e. There i! no nece!!ary
continuity 1et(een it and !pace.
Thought ha! a!o in#ented the oppo!ite o2 ti'e, the 7no(7, the 7eterna no(7. The pre!ent e:i!t!
ony a! an idea. The 'o'ent you atte'pt to oo3 at the pre!ent, it ha! aready 1een 1rought
into the 2ra'e(or3 o2 the pa!t.
Thought (i u!e any tric3 under the !un to gi#e 'o'entu' to it! o(n continuity. It! e!!entia
techni5ue i! to repeat the !a'e thing o#er and o#er again< thi! gi#e! it an iu!ion o2
per'anency. Thi! per'anency i! !hattered the 'o'ent the 2a!ene!! o2 the pa!t6pre!ent62uture
continuu' i! !een. The 2uture can 1e nothing 1ut the 'odi2ied continuity o2 the pa!t.
0+ These 4hiloso4hi"al endeavors only see8 to "o84li"ate things. Is it not 4ossi!le to
live si84ly with nature2 to loo3 at the "louds and trees ... 6
,.G.: The tree you are ta3ing a1out cannot 1e captured 1y thought. I2 your thought !tructure
cannot !top and 2ra'e it! re2ection o2 the tree, you ha#e no (ay o2 oo3ing at the tree at a. In
other (ord!, the tree i! actuay oo3ing at you, not (ice (ersa. I a' not trying to 'y!ti2y it. The
i'portant thing to !ee i! the 2a!e !eparation 1et(een you and the tree, not (ho i! oo3ing at
(ho'. Approaching the reaity o2 the 7po!iti#ey7 or 7negati#ey7, a! the phio!opher! try to do,
ha! no 'eaning. The gap, created 1y thought, re'ain!, no 'atter (hat approach you ta3e.
Thought ha! created a the!e di#i!ion!, 'a3ing (hat you ca e:perience po!!i1e. The 'an
(ho ha! 2reed hi'!e2 2ro' a di#i!ion! in con!ciou!ne!! ha! no e:perience!< he doe! not ha#e
7o#ing7 reation!hip!, doe! not 5ue!tion anything, ha! no notion! a1out 1eing a !e26reai?ed
'an, and i! not !tuc3 on (anting to hep !o'e1ody e!e.
.hat I a' 'aintaining i! that the (hoe pro1e' ha! 1een created 1y cuture. It i! that that ha!
created thi! neurotic di#i!ion in 'an. +o'e(here aong the ine 'an !eparated hi'!e2 and
e:perienced !e26con!ciou!ne!!66(hich the other ani'a! don;t ha#e662or the 2ir!t ti'e. Thi! ha!
created 'i!ery 2or 'an. That i! the 1eginning o2 the end o2 'an.
The indi#idua (ho i! a1e, through uc3, to 1e 2ree 2ro' thi! !e26con!ciou!ne!!, i! no onger
e:periencing an independent e:i!tence. %e i!, e#en to hi'!e2, i3e any other thing out there.
.hat happen! in the en#iron'ent repeat! it!e2 (ithin !uch an indi#idua, (ithout the
3no(edge. @nce thought ha! 1urnt it!e2 out, nothing that create! di#i!ion can re'ain there.
.hie thought i! ta3ing 1irth, the di!integration or death o2 thought i! ta3ing pace a!o. That i!
(hy it i! not natura 2or thought to ta3e root. @ny 1y 'aintaining a di#i!i#e con!ciou!ne!! in
'an i! thought capa1e o2 denying the har'oniou! 2unctioning o2 the 1ody. To ca!t 'an in
reigiou! or p!ychoogica ter'! i! to deny the e:traordinary inteigence o2 thi! (ondrou! 1ody.
It i! the 'o#e'ent o2 thought that i! con!tanty ta3ing you a(ay 2ro' your natura !tate and
creating thi! di#i!ion.
I! there any (ay 2or u! to e:perience, 'uch e!! !hare, reaity8 &orget a1out 7uti'ate reaity7;<
you ha#e no (ay o2 e:periencing the reaity o2 anything. ":periencing reaity 72ro' 'o'ent to
'o'ent7 i! a!o a thought6induced !tate o2 'ind.
0+ .istening to you is di55i"ult 5or us2 5or what you are saying under8ines the very !asis
o5 "o88uni"ation ...
,.G.: *ou cannot i!ten to any1ody (ithout interpretation. There i! no !uch thing a! 7the art o2
pure i!tening.7 *ou can !it here ta3ing 2or the re!t o2 your i2e (ithout getting any(here. .ithout
a co''on re2erence point66(hich i! another in#ention o2 thought66ho( can you co''unicate
and !hare8 It i! 9u!t not po!!i1e. There i! nothing T@ co''unicate anyho(.
*ou (ant to u!e co''unication to hep you out o2 the 'e!! you are in. That i! your ony
intere!t. Getting out o2 your !ituation i! your ony ai'. .hy8 .hy do you (ant to get out o2 your
!ituation8 .anting to get out o2 !ituation! i! (hat ha! created the pro1e' in the 2ir!t pace.
.anting to 2ree your!e2 2ro' the 1urden i! reay the pro1e'. I a' not reco''ending anything<
doing or not doing ead to the !a'e end: 'i!ery. +o doing nothing i! no di22erent 2ro' doing
!o'ething. A! ong a! you ha#e 3no(edge a1out that 1urden66(hich I deny e:i!t!66you (i
ha#e to !trugge to 1e 2ree o2 it. It cannot 1ut do other(i!e. Anything you do i! part o2 the
'echani!' o2 thought.
*our !earch 2or happine!! i! proonging your unhappine!!.
0+ There is a ring o5 "ertainty and authority in what you say. 1e want to 3now ...
,.G.: &ro' (ho' do you (ant to 3no(8 Not 2ro' 'e. I don;t 3no(. I2 you a!!u'e that I 3no(,
you are !ady 'i!ta3en. I ha#e no (ay o2 3no(ing. .hat i! there in!ide you i! ony the
'o#e'ent o2 3no(edge (anting to 3no( 'ore and 'ore. The 7you7, the !eparati#e !tructure
can continue ony a! ong a! there i! a de'and to 3no(. That i! the rea!on (hy you are a!3ing
the!e 5ue!tion!, not to 2ind out anything 2or your!e2. Nothing you can te your!e2 can change
your un2ortunate !ituation. .hy !houd !o'ething, or nothing, happen8
The de'and 2or 2reedo', (hether out(ardy or in(ardy, ha! 1een (ith u! 2or a ong (hie. .e
ha#e 1een tod that thi! de'and i! a !acred, no1e thing. %a#e (e again 1een 'i!ed8
The de'and to 1e 2ree i! the cau!e o2 your pro1e'!. *ou (ant to !ee your!e2 a! 2ree. The one
that i! !aying, 7*ou are not 2ree,7 i! the !a'e one that i! teing you that there i! a !tate o2
72reedo'7 to 1e pur!ued. But the pur!uit i! !a#ery, the #ery denia o2 2reedo'. I do not 3no(
anything a1out 2reedo', 1ecau!e I do not 3no( anything a1out 'y!e2, 2ree, en!a#ed, or
other(i!e. &reedo' and !e263no(edge are in3ed. +ince I do not 3no( 'y!e2 and ha#e no
(ay o2 !eeing 'y!e2, e:cept 1y the 3no(edge gi#en 'e 1y 'y cuture, the 5ue!tion o2 (anting
to 1e 2ree doe! not ari!e at a. The 3no(edge you ha#e a1out 2reedo' denie! the #ery
po!!i1iity o2 2reedo'. .hen you !top oo3ing at your!e2 (ith the 3no(edge you ha#e, the
de'and to 1e 2ree 2ro' that !e2 drop! a(ay.
0+ #ur ordinary 8inds are too "luttered to a44re"iate what you are saying. #nly a
4ro5oundly still 8ind "an !egin to understand you. Is this not so6
,.G.: +tine!! o2 'ind i! ridicuou!. There i! no !uch thing a! !tine!! o2 'ind. Thi! i! another
tric3 created 1y the de'and to 1e 2ree. .hat i! there i! the con!tant de'and to 1e 2ree. Nothing
e!e i! there. %o( can you, and (hy !houd you, 1e 2ree 2ro' 'e'ory8 4e'ory i! a1!outey
e!!entia. The pro1e' i! not ha#ing a 'e'ory, 1ut your tendency to u!e 'e'ory to 2urther
your 7!piritua7 intere!t!, or a! a 'ean! to 2ind happine!!. To atte'pt to 1e 2ree 2ro' 'e'ory i!
(ithdra(a, and (ithdra(a i! death.
There i! nothing to 3no(. The !tate'ent that there i! nothing to 3no( i! an a1!traction to you,
1ecau!e you 3no(. To you not 3no(ing i! a 'yth. .hat i! there i! not not63no(ing 1ut 3no(ing
pro9ecting the !tate o2 2reeing your!e2 2ro' the 3no(n. *our de'and to 1e 2ree 2ro' the 3no(n
i! the one that i! creating the pro1e'. A! ong a! the notion o2 7I ought to 1e thi!7 i! there, !o
ong (i that (hich I actuay a' 1e there.
0+ So it is the 5antasi;ing a!out a non:e7istent ideal 4erson2 so"iety2 or state that doo8s
and 5i7es 8e where I a8. My !elie5 in what I a8 not deter8ines what I in 5a"t a8. Is that
it6
That;! it. And the greate!t idea, the 'o!t i'po!ing, per2ect and po(er2u, i!, o2 cour!e, God. It
i! an in#ention o2 2rightened 'ind!. The hu'an 'ind ha! 'any de!tructi#e in#ention! to it!
credit. The 'o!t de!tructi#e one, and the one that ha! corrupted you, i! the in#ention o2 God.
The hi!tory o2 hu'an thin3ing ha! produced !aint!, teacher!, guru!, Bhaga#an!, 1ut God i! the
'o!t corrupt o2 the' a. 4an ha! aready 'e!!ed up hi! i2e, and reigion ha! 'ade it (or!e. It
i! reigion that reay 'ade a 'e!! o2 'an;! i2e.
0+ #ne 4arallel I have noti"ed !etween your 8essage and other tea"hings2 es4e"ially
that o5 ?. @rishna8urti2 is the stress on the thought stru"ture and its a!ility to !lind us.
1hy is thought so i84ortant6
,.G.: It i! i'portant that athough thought contro! and deter'ine! your e#ery action, it, at the
!a'e ti'e, cannot it!e2 1e !een 1y con!ciou!ne!!. *ou can thin3 and theori?e about thought
1ut cannot percei#e or appreciate thought it!e2. Are you and thought t(o !eparate thing!8 *ou
3no( about thought, not thought it!e2. Foe! thought e:i!t apart 2ro' the 3no(edge you ha#e
about thought8 A1out a you can !ay i!, 7I 3no(, I ha#e 3no(edge a1out 'y thought!, a1out
'y e:perience!, a1out thi! or that,7 that i! a you can do. Independent o2 that, i! there thought8
*our 3no(ing a1out thought i! the ony thing there i!.
+o a that i! there i! the 3no(edge you ha#e accu'uated a1out thought. Nothing e!e i! there.
A the thing! o1!er#ed, a! (e a! the o1!er#er hi'!e2, i! part o2 thi! 3no(edge a1out thought.
They are thought!, and the 7I7 i! another thought. But there i! no indi#idua #aue in thought< it i!
not your!, it 1eong! to e#eryone, i3e the at'o!phere. )no(edge i! co''on property.
.hat I a' trying to !ay i! that there i! no indi#idua there at a. There i! ony a certain gathering
o2 3no(edge66(hich i! thought661ut no indi#iduaity there. The 3no(edge you ha#e o2 thing! i!
a that you are capa1e o2 e:periencing. .ithout 3no(edge no e:perience o2 any 3ind i!
po!!i1e. *ou cannot !eparate e:perience and 3no(edge. The 7I7 i! nothing !acred< it i! the
totaity o2 your 3no(edge, and you are, un2ortunatey, !tuc3 (ith it. .hy are you intere!ted in
!eparating the 3no(edge you ha#e a1out your!e266(hate#er you ca your!e28 )no(edge i! a
that i! there. .here i! the 7I78 *ou ha#e !eparated the 7I7 2ro' the 3no(edge it ha! o2 the
thing! a1out you. It i! an iu!ion.
+i'iary, enighten'ent ha! no independent e:i!tence o2 it! o(n apart 2ro' your 3no(edge
a1out it. There i! no enighten'ent at a. The idea o2 iu'ination i! tied up (ith change, 1ut
there i! nothing T@ change. Change ad'it! o2 ti'e< change A>.A*+ ta3e! ti'e. To change, to
ei'inate one thing and repace it (ith another, ta3e! ti'e. .hat you are no( and (hat you
ought to 1e are in3ed together 1y ti'e. *ou are going to 1e enightened T@4@==@. ...
>et u! ta3e thi! a! an e:a'pe. *ou (ant to 1e enightened, you (ant to 1e 7!e2e!!7< you are
thi!, you (ant to 1e that. The gap 1et(een the t(o i! 2ied (ith ti'e, put there to a!3 the
repetiti#e 5ue!tion, 7%o(87 *our enighten'ent or !e2e!!ne!! i! a(ay! to'orro(, not no(. +o
ti'e i! e!!entia, and ti'e i! thought. Thin3ing i! not action, not ta3ing, 1ut 'erey (anting. *ou
are not ready to do a thing, ony 'editate, (hich i! 9u!t thin3ing a1out it. *our thought !tructure,
(hich i! you, can;t concei#e o2 the po!!i1iity o2 anything happening e:cept in ti'e. Thi!
e!capi!t ogic i! a!o appied 1y e#eryone to !piritua 'atter!, ony the ti'e 2ra'e i! arger. It
happen! in a 2uture i2e or perhap! in hea#en< at any rate, to'orro(. And 9u!t a! there i! no
to'orro( in the!e 'atter!, !o it! re2erence point, the pre!ent, doe! not e:i!t. .here doe! it not
e:i!t8 In thought, (hich i! the pa!t. There i! no 5ue!tion o2 enighten'ent and !e2e!! 7no(7,
1ecau!e there i! no 7no(7, ony the pro9ection o2 the pre!ent into the pa!t.
*ou ha#e ne#er !een a tree, ony your 3no(edge you ha#e a1out tree!. *ou !ee the
3no(edge, not the tree. *our (hoe intere!t in !e2e!!ne!! i! 'oti#ated 1y the pa!t. A! ong a!
there i! 'oti#ation, it i! a !e26centered acti#ity. The 'ore you do, the 'ore !e2i!h you 1eco'e.
*our (anting to 1e enightened or !e2e!! i! a #ery !e2i!h thing. *ou don;t (ant 2reedo', nor
do you (ant e#eryone to 1e 2ree, you (ant 72reedo'7 2or you. .ith an approach i3e that, ho(
the he are you going to 1e 2ree8 *ou are not going to 1e 2ree.
N#T$S+
1B 4andu3ya ,pani!had: @ne o2 the principa ,pani!had!, o22iciay 2or'ing part o2 the arger
!cripture! o2 the %indu! caed the Ceda!.
$B +a'3ara: The Cedanta phio!opher o2 the 8th century )eraa, India, (ho propounded the
non6duai!t phio!ophy 1a!ed on the ,pani!had!. Thi! phio!ophy teache! that Brah'an
A,ti'ate =eaityB aone i! rea, that the (ord i! an iu!ion, and that there i! no di22erence
1et(een At'an Athe interior !e2B and Brah'an.
CHAT$, ( + TH$,$ IS N#THING T# UND$,STAND
,.G.: *ou (i ne#er 1e 2ree 2ro' !e2i!hne!!.
0+ %ut all the saints2 saviors and religions o5 all ti8es have en"ouraged us to !e
unsel5ish2 to !e sel5:e55a"ing2 to !e 8ee3. It 8ust there5ore !e 4ossi!le. How "an you !e
so "ertain o5 su"h a thing6
,.G.: Becau!e it i! cry!ta cear to 'e that you ha#e in#ented thi! idea o2 !e2e!!ne!! to protect
your!e2 2ro' the actua 66 your !e2i!hne!!. In any ca!e, (hether you 1eie#e in !e2e!!ne!! or
not, you re'ain at a ti'e! !e2i!h. *our !o6caed !e2e!!ne!! e:i!t! ony in the 2uture,
to'orro(. And (hen to'orro( co'e!, it i! put o22 unti the ne:t day, or perhap! ne:t i2e.
>oo3 at it thi! (ay< it i! i3e the hori?on. Actuay, there i! no hori?on. The 'ore you 'o#e
to(ard! the hori?on, the 'ore it 'o#e! a(ay. It i! ony the i'itation! o2 the eye! that create!
the hori?on. But there i! no !uch thing a! the hori?on. >i3e(i!e, there i! no !uch thing a!
!e2e!!ne!! at a. 4an ha! tortured hi'!e2 2or generation! (ith thi! idea o2 !e2e!!ne!!, and it
ha! ony a22orded a i#ing 2or tho!e (ho !e the idea o2 !e2e!!ne!! 2or a i#ing, i3e the prie!t!
and 'orai!t!.
I a' not conde'ning you or anyone e!e, 9u!t pointing out the a1!urdity o2 (hat you are doing.
.hen the energy that i! !pent in the pur!uit o2 !o'ething that doe! not e:i!t, i3e !e2e!!ne!!,
i! reea!ed, your pro1e' 1eco'e! #ery !i'pe, no 'atter (hat it i!. *ou (i cea!e to create
pro1e'! on the 'ateria pane, and that;! the ony pane there i!.
0+ Yes2 !ut what a!out those who are not sear"hing 5or so8e illusory a!stra"tion2 !ut
si84ly ha44iness6
,.G.: Their !earch 2or happine!! i! no di22erent 2ro' the !piritua pur!uit. It i! the pur!uit o2
pea!ure, !pirituaity 1eing the greate!t, uti'ate pea!ure.
0+ So this 4ursuit has to go6
,.G.: Fon;t !ay it !houd go. .anting !e2i!hne!! to go i! part and parce o2 the !e2i!h pur!uit o2
a 'ore pea!ura1e !tate 66 !e2e!!ne!!. Both do not e:i!t. That i! (hy you are eternay
unhappy. *our !earch 2or happine!! i! 'a3ing you unhappy. Both the !piritua goa and the
!earch 2or happine!! are the !a'e. Both are e!!entiay !e2i!h, pea!ura1e pur!uit!. I2 that
under!tanding i! !o'eho( there in you, then you (i not u!e the energy in that direction at a.
*ou 3no(, I;#e 1een e#ery(here in the (ord, and ha#e 2ound that peope are e:acty the !a'e.
There i! no di22erence at a. 0ecoming i! the 'o!t i'portant thing in the (ord 2or e#ery1ody 66
to 1eco'e !o'ething. They a (ant to 1eco'e rich, (hether 'ateriay or !pirituay, it i!
e:acty the !a'e. Fon;t di#ide it< the !o6caed !piritua i! the 'ateriai!tic. *ou 'ay thin3 you
are !uperior 1ecau!e you go to te'pe and do )u'a, 1ut the (o'an there i! doing )u'a in the
hope o2 ha#ing a chid. +he (ant! !o'ething, !o !he goe! to the te'pe. +o do you< it i! e:acty
the !a'e. &or !enti'enta rea!on! you go, 1ut in ti'e it (i 1eco'e routine and 1eco'e
a1horrent to you.
.hat I a' trying to point out i! !i'py thi!: your !piritua and reigiou! acti#itie! are 1a!icay
!e2i!h. That i! a I a' pointing out. *ou go to the te'pe 2or the !a'e rea!on you go other
pace! 66 you (ant !o'e re!ut. I2 you don;t (ant anything there i! no rea!on to go to the
te'pe.
0+ %ut the great 8a9ority o5 4eo4le go to the te84le ...
,.G.: .hy are you !o concerned a1out (hat the 'a9ority doe!8 Thi! i! your pro1e', and you
'u!t !o#e it 2or your!e2. Fon;t 1other a1out 'an3ind and a the 1iion! o2 peope in the (ord.
0+ You are ruthlessly "onde8ning whatever 4eo4le have said so 5ar. You 8ay2 in ti8e2
also !e "onde8ned and !lasted 5or what you are saying.
,.G.: I2 you ha#e the gut!, I (i 1e the #ery 2ir!t to !aute you. But you 'u!t not rey on your
hoy 1oo3! 66 the 0haga(ad +itaA1B or 1)anishads. *ou 'u!t chaenge (hat I a' !aying
(ithout the hep o2 your !o6caed authoritie!. *ou 9u!t don;t ha#e the gut! to do that 1ecau!e
you are reying upon the Gita, not upon your!e2. That i! (hy you (i ne#er 1e a1e to do it. I2
you ha#e that courage, you are the ony per!on (ho can 2a!i2y (hat I a' !aying. A great !age
i3e Go(dapadaA$B can do it, 1ut he i! not here. *ou are 'erey repeating (hat Go(dapada and
other! ha#e !aid. It i! a (orthe!! !tate'ent a! 2ar a! you are concerned. I2 there (ere a i#ing
Go(dapada !itting here, he (oud 1e a1e to 1a!t (hat I a' !aying, 1ut not you. +o don;t
e!cape into 'eaninge!! generai?ation!. *ou 'u!t ha#e the gut! to di!pro#e (hat I a' !aying
on your o(n. .hat I a' !aying 'u!t 1e 2a!e 2or you. *ou can ony agree or di!agree (ith (hat
I a' !aying according to (hat !o'e 9o3er ha! tod you. That i! not the (ay to go a1out it.
I a' 9u!t pointing out that there are no !oution! at a, ony pro1e'!. I2 other! ha#e !aid the
!a'e thing I a' !aying, (hy are you a!3ing 5ue!tion! and !earching 2or !oution! here8 &orget
a1out the 'a!!e!< I a' ta3ing a1out you. *ou are 'erey oo3ing 2or ne(, 1etter 'ethod!. I a'
not going to hep you. I a' !aying, 7Fon;t 1other a1out !oution!< try to 2ind out (hat the
pro1e' i!.7 The pro1e' i! the !oution< !oution! 9u!t don;t !o#e your pro1e'. .hy in the he
are you oo3ing 2or another !oution8 Fon;t co'e to 'e 2or !oution!. That i! a I a' !aying. *ou
(i 'a3e out o2 (hat I a' !aying another !oution, to 1e added to your i!t o2 !oution!, (hich
are a u!ee!! (hen it co'e! to actuay !o#ing your pro1e'!.
.hat I a' !aying i! #aid and true 2or 'e, that i! a. I2 I !ugge!t anything, directy or indirecty,
you (i turn it into another 'ethod or techni5ue. I (oud 1e 2a!i2ying 'y!e2 i2 I (ere to 'a3e
any !uch !ugge!tion.
I2 anyone !ay! there i! a (ay out, he i! not an hone!t 2eo(. %e i! doing it 2or hi! o(n !e26
aggrandi?e'ent, you 'ay 1e !ure. %e !i'py (ant! to 'ar3et a product and hope! to con#ince
you that it i! !uperior to other product! on the 'ar3et. I2 another 'an co'e! aong and !ay!
that there i! no (ay out, you 'a3e o2 that another 'ethod. It i! a a 2ruite!! atte'pt to o#erta3e
your o(n !hado(. And yet you can;t re'ain (here you are. That i! the pro1e'.
&ro' a thi! you ine#ita1y dra( the concu!ion that the !ituation i! hopee!!. In reaity you are
creating that hopee!!ne!! 1ecau!e you don;t reay (ant to 1e 2ree 2ro' 2ear, en#y, 9eaou!y,
and !e2i!hne!!. That i! (hy you 2ee your !ituation to 1e hopee!!. The ony hope ie! in
!e2i!hne!!, greed, and anger, not in it! 2ictitiou! oppo!ite, i.e., the practice o2 !e2e!!ne!!,
genero!ity, and 3indne!!. The pro1e', !ay !e2i!hne!!, i! ony !trengthened 1y the cuti#ation
o2 it! 2ictitiou! oppo!ite, the !o6caed !e2e!!ne!!.
+itting here di!cu!!ing the!e thing! i! 'eaninge!!, u!ee!!. That i! (hy I a' a(ay! !aying to
'y i!tener!, 7Get o!t, pea!eM7 .hat you (ant you can get e!e(here, 1ut not here. Go to the
te'pe, do )u'a, repeat mantras, put on a!he!. "#entuay !o'e 9o3er co'e! aong and !ay!,
7Gi#e 'e a (ee3;! (age! and I (i gi#e you a 1etter mantra to repeat.7 Then another 2eo(
co'e! aong and te! you not to do any o2 that, that it i! u!ee!!, and that (hat he i! !aying i!
'uch 'ore re#outionary. %e pre!cri1e! 7choicee!! a(arene!!,7 ta3e! your 'oney and 1uid!
!choo!, organi?ation!, and tantric center!.
0+ 1hy shouldn<t we !rush aside what you are saying2 9ust as you !rush aside the
tea"hings and e55orts o5 others6
,.G.: *ou (i ne#er 1a!t 'e< the attach'ent you ha#e to reigiou! authority prohi1it! you 2ro'
5ue!tioning anything, 'uch e!! a 'an i3e 'e. I a' certain you (i ne#er chaenge 'e. &or
that rea!on (hat I a' !aying (i ine#ita1y create an un!ta1e, neurotic !ituation 2or you. *ou
cannot accept (hat I a' !aying, and neither are you in any po!ition to re9ect it. I2 it (a!n;t 2or
your #ery thic3 !3in, you (oud certainy end up in the oony 1in. *ou !i'py cannot and (i not
5ue!tion (hat I a' !aying< it i! too 'uch o2 a threat. A1!outey nothing i! going to penetrate
your de2en!e!< Go(dapada pro#ide! the go#e!, the Bhaga#ad Gita a !nug coat 9ac3et, and the
0rahmasutraA3B a 1uet6proo2 #e!t. +o you are !a2e, and that i! a you are reay intere!ted in.
*ou can;t 1a!t (hat I a' !aying a! ong a! you are reying upon (hat !o'eone ha! !aid
1e2ore.
Dea!e don;t !ay that there are thou!and! o2 !eer! and !age!< there are ony a #ery 2e(. *ou
can count the' a on your 2inger!. The re!t are 'erey technocrat!. The !aint i! a technocrat.
That i! (hat 'o!t peope are. But no( (ith the de#eop'ent o2 drug! and other techni5ue!, the
!aint i! di!pen!a1e. *ou don;t any onger need a prie!t or !aint to in!truct you in 'editation. I2
you (ant to contro your thought!, !i'py ta3e a drug and 2orget the', i2 that i! (hat you (ant. I2
you can;t !eep, ta3e a !eeping pi. +eep 2or a (hie, then (a3e up. It i! the !a'e.
Fon;t i!ten to 'e. It (i create an unnece!!ary di!tur1ance in you. It (i ony inten!i2y the
neurotic !ituation you are aready caught in. %a#ing ta3en 2or granted the #aidity o2 a thi! hoy
!tu22, ha#ing ne#er 5ue!tioned, 'uch e!! 1ro3en a(ay 2ro' it, you not ony ha#e earned ho(
to i#e (ith it, 1ut a!o ho( to capitai?e on it. It i! a 'atter o2 pro2iteering, nothing 'ore.
0+ I5 all this is so2 then why do you go on tal3ing6
,.G.: There i! no u!e a!3ing 'e (hy I ta3. A' I !eing or pro'i!ing you anything8 I a' not
o22ering you peace o2 'ind, a' I8 *ou counter 1y !aying that I a' ta3ing a(ay your preciou!
peace o2 'ind. @n the contrary, I a' !inging 'y o(n !ong, 9u!t going 'y o(n (ay, and you
co'e aong and atte'pt to di!tur1 'y peace.
0+ I 5eel that i5 any!ody "an hel4 us it is you.
,.G.: No !irM Anything I do to hep (oud ony add to your 'i!ery 66 that i! a. By continuing to
i!ten to 'e you 'erey heap one 'ore 'i!ery upon tho!e you aready ha#e. In that !en!e thi!
di!cu!!ion (e are ha#ing i! doing you no good (hate#er. *ou don;t !ee' to reai?e that you are
paying (ith 2ire here. I2 you reay (ant moksha here and no(, you can ha#e it. *ou !ee, you
A=" anger, !e2i!hne!!, and a the!e thing!< i2 they go, you go. There i! a phy!ica going 66 not
in the a1!tract, 1ut actua phy!ica death.
0+You are saying that that "an ha44en now6 #thers have said ...
,.G.: I don;t gi#e a hoot (hat other! ha#e !aid. It can happen no(. *ou !i'py don;t (ant it.
*ou (oud not touch it (ith a ten62oot 1arge poe. I2 anger and !e2i!hne!!, (hich i! *@, go,
moksha i! no(, not to'orro(. *our o(n anger (i 1urn you, not the eectric heater. +o the
reigiou! 'an ha! in#ented !e2e!!ne!!. I2 that !e2e!!ne!! goe!, you go, that i! a. +o, 2reeing
your!e2 2ro' any one o2 the!e thing! Ai.e., greed, !e2i!hne!!, etc.,B i'pie! that you, a! you
3no( and e:perience your!e2, are co'ing to an end N@.. Dea!e, in your intere!t and out o2
co'pa!!ion I a' teing you, thi! i! not (hat you (ant. Thi! i! not a thing you can 'a3e
happen. It i! not in your hand! at a. It hit! (ho'!oe#er it choo!e!. *ou are out o2 the picture
atogether.
A that poetry and ro'antici!' a1out 7dying to a your ye!terday!7 i! not going to hep you, or
any1ody. Nothing can co'e out o2 it. They 'ay hod 2orth on pat2or'!, 1ut they the'!e#e!
don;t (ant it. It i! 9u!t (ord!. "#entuay peope !ette 2or that A#i?., te'pe!, mantras,
!cripture!B. It i! a too a1!urd and chidi!h.
0+ Then how "an we 5ind out 5or ourselves and not 9ust re4eat the words o5 the so:"alled
e74erts6
,.G.: *ou ha#e to actuay touch i2e at a point (here no1ody ha! touched it 1e2ore. No1ody can
teach you that. A! ong a! you continue to repeat (hat other! ha#e !aid 1e2ore, you are o!t,
and nothing good can co'e o2 it. >i!tening to and 1eie#ing (hat other! ha#e !aid i! not the (ay
to 2ind out 2or your!e2, and there i! no other (ay.
0+ So you are saying that we 8ust get rid o5 our !elie5 that....
,.G.: Fon;t 1other. *ou (i repace one 1eie2 (ith another. *ou are nothing 1ut 1eie2, and
(hen it die!, you are dead. .hat I a' trying to te you i! thi!: don;t try to 1e 2ree 2ro'
!e2i!hne!!, greed, anger, en#y, de!ire, and 2ear. *ou (i ony create it! oppo!ite!, (hich are,
un2ortunatey, 2ictitiou!. I2 de!ire die!, you die. The 1ac3 #an co'e! and cart! you a(ay, that;!
itM "#en i2 you !houd !o'eho( 'iracuou!y !ur#i#e !uch a !hoc3, it (i 1e o2 no use to you, or
to other!.
*ou pre2er to toy (ith thing!, a!3ing a1!urd 5ue!tion! i3e, 7.hat happen! to 'y 1ody a2ter
death8 .i the 1ody 1e !trong enough to ta3e it87 .hat the he are you ta3ing a1out8 *ou are
a!3ing 'e (hat (i happen to you i2 you touch that i#e eectrica (ire there. That i! the 3ind o2
pointe!! 5ue!tion you are a!3ing. *ou are not reay intere!ted at a. Derhap! a2ter touching
thi! you (i 1e co'petey 1urnt and ha#e to 1e thro(n a(ay. Derhap! other! (i get a !hoc3
the'!e#e! upon touching you, and you (i 1eco'e an untoucha1eM
>oo3 at (hat i! i'pied 1y (hat I a' !aying. I2 you ha#e the courage to touch i2e 2or the 2ir!t
ti'e, you (i ne#er 3no( (hat hit you. "#erything 'an ha! taught, 2et, and e:perienced i!
gone, and nothing i! put in it! pace. +uch a per!on 1eco'e! the i#ing authority 1y #irtue o2 hi!
2reedo' 2ro' the pa!t, cuture, and he (i re'ain !o unti !o'eone e!e (ho ha! di!co#ered
thi! 2or hi'!e2 1a!t! it. ,nti you ha#e the courage to 1a!t 'e, a that I a' !aying, and a the
guru!, you (i re'ain a cuti!t (ith photograph!, ritua!, 1irthday cee1ration!, and the i3e.
I a' !orry. I !ing 'y !ong and go.
0+ %ut we are lost2 and so we need gurus2 sadhana2 and s"ri4tures or guidan"e.
,.G.: *ou can go 1ac3 to your guru!. Fo (hat you i3e. The thing I a' ta3ing a1out happen! to
the uc3y< i2 you are uc3y, you are uc3y. That i! a. I ha#e nothing to do (ith it. It i! in no one;!
hand!.
0+ .u"3y or unlu"3y2 our tradition tells us that li5e is transient2 that all is in 5lu72 that....
,.G.: That i! the tradition o2 India I a' ta3ing a1out 66 change, not the tradition you ta3 a1out,
(hich i! no change. *our (hoe i2e i! a denia o2 the reaity o2 change. *ou ony (i!h to
continue, !o'eho(, then re#i#e, ony to continue. That i! not the great tradition o2 India I a'
ta3ing o2. *ou thin3 you are a!3ing a pro2ound 5ue!tion (hen you a!3, 7.hat i! death87 *ou
pre!u'e to a!3 Go(dapada;! 5ue!tion 1e2ore you ha#e a!3ed the 'ore 2unda'enta 5ue!tion,
7A' I 1orn87 In!tead o2 tac3ing thi! 1a!ic 5ue!tion on your o(n, you 5uote and (rite
co''entarie! upon Go(dapada, then ta3e the ea!y (ay out, and !i'py e5uate (hat I a'
!aying (ith (hat he !aid. That i! your cop out.
In any e#ent, a you can do i! to !pecuate a1out death and reincarnation. @ny dead peope
a!3 a1out death. Tho!e (ho are reay i#ing (oud ne#er a!3 !uch a 5ue!tion. That 'e'ory in
you66(hich i! dead66(ant! to 3no( i2 it (i continue e#en a2ter (hat it i'agine! to 1e death.
That i! (hy it i! a!3ing !uch !iy 5ue!tion!. Feath i! 2inaity< you are dead ony once. .hen
once the 5ue!tion! and idea! you ha#e ha#e died, then you (i ne#er a!3 a1out death again.
0+ You are ri44ing everything away2 and suddenly I see that I have to stri3e out on 8y
own2 that no one "an hel4 8e.
,.G.: Are you !ure that no one can hep you8 *ou are not !o !ure. +o your !tate'ent doe!n;t
'ean anything. *ou (i har1or hope. "#en a!!u'ing 2or a 'o'ent that an out!ide 2orce can
hep you, you are !ti con#inced that you can hel) yourself. Thi! gi#e! you tre'endou! hope,
and hope i! always oriented to(ard! achie#ing !o'ething. +o, rather than (a!te your ti'e
a!3ing i2 there i! or i! not anyone (ho can hep you achie#e (hat you (ant, you !houd rather
1e a!3ing, 7I! there anything to 1e attained87 .hether you your!e2, or !o'eone e!e, hep! you
to attain it i! not the i!!ue at a. It i!, rather, that you are !earching. That i! o1#iou!. But 2or
(hat are you !earching8 *ou are undou1tedy !earching 2or (hat you aready 3no(. It i!
i'po!!i1e to !earch 2or !o'ething you do not 3no(. *ou !earch 2or, and 2ind, (hat you 3no(. It
i! di22icut 2or you to 2ace thi! !i'pe 2act.
Dea!e don;t get 'e (rong. I a' not a!3ing 5ue!tion!, paying !o'e 3ind o2 +ocratic gue!!ing
ga'e. I a' not here to o22er you any ne( 'ethod!, ne( techni5ue!, or !ugge!t any gi''ic3! to
attain your goa. I2 other !y!te'!, techni5ue!, and gi''ic3! ha#e 2aied to hep you reach your
goa, and i2 you are oo3ing or !hopping around 2or !o'e ne(er, 1etter 'ethod! here, I a'
a2raid I cannot 1e o2 any hep to you. I2 you 2ee that !o'eone e!e can hep you, good uc3 to
you. But I a' co'peed, through the e!!on! o2 'y o(n e:perience, to add the rider, 7*ou (i
get no(here, you (i !ee.7
The u!ee!!ne!! o2 turning to inner or outer !ource! to hep you i! !o'ething o2 (hich I a'
certain. It i! cear to 'e that to 2ind out 2or your!e2 you 'u!t 1e a1!outey hepe!! (ith
no(here to turn. That i! a. ,n2ortunatey, thi! certainty cannot 1e tran!'itted to !o'eone e!e.
The certainty I ha#e i! !i'py that the goa, (hich you ha#e in#ented, i! re!pon!i1e 2or your
!earch. A! ong a! the goa i! there, !o ong (i the !earch 2or it continue. I2 you !ay, 7I reay
don;t 3no( (hat I a' !earching 2or,7 that i! not true. +o, (hat i! it that you are !earching 2or8
That i! 1y 2ar the 'o!t i'portant 5ue!tion to a!3 your!e2.
I2 you oo3 at it you (i !ee that, a!ide 2ro' your natura phy!ica need!, (hat you (ant ha!
ari!en 2ro' (hat you ha#e 1een tod, (hat you ha#e read, and (hat you your!e2 ha#e
e:perienced. The phy!ica (ant! are !e26e#ident and ea!iy under!tanda1e. But thi! particuar
(ant66the o19ect o2 your !earch66i! !o'ething 1orn out o2 your thin3ing, (hich in turn i! 1a!ed
upon the 3no(edge you ha#e gathered 2ro' #ariou! !ource!.
0+ I5 all you say is true2 we are in a !ad way indeed. 1e are not in a 4osition to a""e4t or
re9e"t what you are saying. 1hy2 then2 do you go on tal3ing to us6 1hat 8eaning "an it
have6
,.G.: Thi! diaogue (ith you ha! no 'eaning at a. *ou 'ay #ery (e a!3 (hy the he I a'
ta3ing. I e'phaticay a!!ure you that, in 'y ca!e, it i! not at a in the nature o2 !e262u2i'ent.
4y 'oti#e 2or ta3ing i! 5uite di22erent 2ro' (hat you thin3 it i!. It i! not that I a' eager to hep
you under!tand, or that I 2ee that I 'u!t hep you. Not at a. 4y 'oti#e i! direct and te'porary:
you arri#e !ee3ing under!tanding, (hie I a' ony intere!ted in 'a3ing it cry!ta cear that there
is nothing to understand.
A! ong a! you (ant to under!tand, !o ong there (i 1e thi! a(3(ard reation!hip 1et(een t(o
indi#idua!. I a' a(ay! e'pha!i?ing that !o'eho( the truth ha! to da(n upon you that there i!
nothing to under!tand. A! ong a! you thin3, accept, and 1eie#e that there i! !o'ething to
under!tand, and 'a3e that under!tanding a goa to 1e paced 1e2ore you, de'anding !earch
and !trugge, you are o!t and (i i#e in 'i!ery.
I ha#e ony a 2e( thing! to !ay and I go on repeating the' again and again and again. There
are no 5ue!tion! 2or 'e, other than the practica 5ue!tion! 2or e#eryday 2unctioning in thi! (ord.
*ou, ho(e#er, ha#e 'any, 'any 5ue!tion!. The!e 5ue!tion! a ha#e the !a'e !ource: your
3no(edge. It i! !i'py not in the nature o2 thing! that you can ha#e a 5ue!tion (ithout 3no(ing
the an!(er aready. +o 'eaning2u diaogue i! !i'py not po!!i1e (hen you are a!3ing
5ue!tion! to your!e2 and to 'e, 1ecau!e you ha#e aready 'ade up your 'ind, you aready
po!!e!! the an!(er!. +o co''unication 1et(een u! i! i'po!!i1e< (hat i! the point o2 carrying
on any diaogue8
There i! the actua need to 1e 2ree 2ro' an!(er! the'!e#e!. The !earch i! in#aid 1ecau!e it i!
1a!ed upon 5ue!tion! (hich in turn are 1a!ed upon 2a!e 3no(edge. *our 3no(edge ha! not
2reed you 2ro' your pro1e'!. *our die''a i! that you are !earching 2or an!(er! to 5ue!tion!
you aready 3no( the an!(er to. Thi! i! 'a3ing you neurotic. I2 the 5ue!tion! you ha#e (ere
actuay !o#a1e, it, the 5ue!tion, (oud 1o( it!e2 up. Becau!e a 5ue!tion! are 'erey
#ariation! on the !a'e 5ue!tion, the annihiation o2 one 'ean! the annihiation o2 a. +o
2reedo' e:i!t! not in 2inding an!(er!, 1ut in the di!!oution o2 a 5ue!tion!. Thi! !ort o2
pro1e'6!o#ing you are not, un2ortunatey, the ea!t intere!ted in.
.hat other! and you your!e2 thin3 are the an!(er! cannot hep you at a. It i! reay #ery
!i'pe: i2 the an!(er i! correct, the 5ue!tion di!appear!. I ha#e no 5ue!tion! o2 any 3ind. They
ne#er enter 'y head. A 'y 5ue!tion!, (hich re!o#ed the'!e#e! into one great 5ue!tion,
ha#e di!appeared entirey. The 5ue!tioner !i'py reai?ed that it (a! 'eaninge!! to go on
a!3ing 5ue!tion!, the an!(er! to (hich I aready 3ne(. *ou ha#e 2ooi!hy created thi! !earch
a! an an!(er to your 5ue!tion!, (hich in turn ha#e 1een in#ented out o2 the 3no(edge you
ha#e gathered. The 5ue!tion! you are 2or'uating are 1orn out o2 an!(er! you aready ha#e. +o
(hat i! your goa8 *ou 'u!t 1e #ery cear a1out it< other(i!e there i! no point in proceeding. It
1eco'e! a ga'e, a 'eaninge!! ritua.
.hat do you (ant to get8 There i! a(ay! !o'e1ody to hep you get (hat you (ant, 2or a price.
*ou ha#e 2ooi!hy di#ided i2e into higher and o(er goa!, into 'ateria and !piritua path!. In
either ca!e great !trugge, pain, and e22ort i! in#o#ed. I !ay, on the other hand, that there are no
!piritua goa! at a< they are !i'py the e:ten!ion o2 'ateria goa! into (hat you i'agine to 1e
a higher, o2tier pane. *ou 'i!ta3eny 1eie#e that 1y pur!uing the !piritua goa you (i
!o'eho( 'iracuou!y 'a3e your 'ateria goa! !i'pe and 'anagea1e. +uch pur!uit! are in
actuaity not po!!i1e. *ou 'ay thin3 that ony in2erior per!on! pur!ue 'ateria goa!, that
'ateria achie#e'ent! are 1oring. But in 2act the !o6caed !piritua goa! you ha#e put 1e2ore
your!e2 are e:acty the !a'e. *ou are your !earch, and it (i not hep to thin3 that you ha#e
under!tood and are 2ree o2 thi!. I2 you don;t co'e here, you (i go e!e(here in !earch o2
an!(er!.
0+ Dis"overing the reality you are tal3ing a!out de8ands real relationshi4 and o4en
"o88uni"ation with others2 does it not6
,.G.: &orget it, !irM Fiaogue ha! no 'eaning. Neither ha! con#er!ation any 'eaning. .hat the
he are (e doing8 Fo you thin3 that I ta3 (ith peope a! an e:cu!e o2 !o'e 3ind8 Fo you thin3
that I har1or any iu!ion! a1out co''unicating (ith you8 I ha#e no !uch iu!ion!. The #ery 2act
that you ha#e returned here again to ta3 and di!cu!! !ho(! that you ha#e not heard a thing I
a' !aying. @nce that under!tanding i! there, the (hoe thing i! 2ini!hed 2or you once and 2or a.
*ou (i not #i!it any guru!, read any 1oo3! on thi!, or i!ten to any1ody. *ou (i not !tupidy
repeat (hat other! ha#e !aid, e!peciay (hat the hoy 'en, !aint!, and !a#ior! ha#e !aid. A
that i! (a!hed out o2 the !y!te' and you are e2t incapa1e o2 2oo(ing or i!tening to anyone,
not e#en a God (a3ing the 2ace o2 the earth, or e#en a 'iion god! roed into one. .hat good
i! it, a2ter a, (hen !o'e1ody ha! a 1iion doar! and you are (ondering (here your ne:t 'ea
(i co'e 2ro'8 Any(ay, that;! not the point. The i'portant thing i!: (hat do you want8 Dea!e
et u! 2orget a1out your bhaga(ans. Fon;t !it here and repeat (hat you ha#e heard 2ro' your
guru!, it i! u!ee!!. .hen once you pace your hope, 1eie2, and con2idence in your guru, you
are !tuc3 (ith hi'.
0+ /irtually all the gurus2 at least the $astern ones2 have stressed the ne"essity o5 !eing
5ree 5ro8 one<s "onditioning2 one<s 4ast.
,.G.: The pa!t (i a(ay! 1e there a! ong a! you (ant !o'ething. "#en i2 you atte'pt to
!uppre!! your (ant!, the pa!t ha! to co'e to your hep and te you %@. to !uppre!! your
(ant!. There i! no !uch di22erentiation o2 (ant!< they are a e:acty the !a'e. In the Indian
cuture the !piritua (ant! are e:toed and !ought a2ter, (hie in the .e!t the 'ateria (ant!
pre#ai.
.hen (anting cea!e!, e#en 2or a 'o'ent, thought i! a1!ent and you are e2t (ith the !i'pe
'atter o2 ta3ing care o2 the 1odiy (ant! 66 2ood, cothe! and !heter. To practice !o'e !ort o2
t(i!ted !e26denia in (hich you 2ai to !ee to the 1ody;! actua phy!ica need! i! a !iy,
per#erted (ay o2 i#ing.
0+ %ut the 3ey question re8ains+ how is one not to want6
,.G.: Again you a!3 7ho(7, thu! a#oiding the i!!ue. There i! no 7ho(7 at a. 7%o(7 i! the
tric3ie!t 5ue!tion, 2or in a!3ing it you are doo'ed. 7%o( to i#e87 That i! one 5ue!tion that ha!
1een 1othering peope 2or centurie!. =eigion! cai' to gi#e a !ati!2actory an!(er to thi!
5ue!tion. "#ery teacher cai'! he 3no(! ho(. %e (i 1e pea!ed to !ho( you ho(, 2or a 2ee o2
cour!e. 7%o( to i#e one;! i2e87 That i! the one 5ue!tion (hich ha! tran!2or'ed it!e2 into
'iion! o2 5ue!tion!. That i! a.
0+ %rushing aside the question o5 how to !e 5ree 5ro8 "onstant wanting2 it see8s
o!vious 5ro8 what you have said that one 8ust !e 5ree 5irst 5ro8 the in5luen"e o5 the
4ast2 or one<s 8e8ory. Is this not so6
,.G.: I2 you go on trying to !uppre!! the pa!t, trying to i#e in (hat you ca 7the pre!ent7, you
(i dri#e your!e2 cra?y. *ou are trying to contro !o'ething o#er (hich you ha#e no contro. It i!
9u!t not po!!i1e to contro thought (ithout 1eco'ing neurotic, 2or it i! not 9u!t your per!ona,
petty itte pa!t that i! in the (ay, 1ut the entire pa!t o2 'an3ind, the entire 'e'ory o2 e#ery
hu'an 1eing, e#ery 2or' o2 i2e, and e#ery 2or' o2 e:i!tence. It i! not !uch a !i'pe, ea!y thing
to do. I2 you try to contro the natura 2o( o2 the ri#er through a the!e arti2icia 'ean!661uiding
a da' !o to !pea366you (i inundate and de!troy the (hoe thing. That i! (hy you 2ind thought!
(eing up in!ide you de!pite your e22ort! to contro, o1!er#e, and 1e a(are o2 the'. @nce thi! i!
under!tood, then you are ne#er concerned (hether thought! are there or not. .hen there i! an
actua need 2or thought to 2unction, it i! there< (hen there i! no need 2or thought to 2unction, it i!
not there. *ou don;t e#en 3no(, and ha#e no (ay o2 2inding out, (hether you are thin3ing or not.
*our constant utii?ation o2 thought to gi#e continuity to your !eparati#e !e2 is you. There i!
nothing there in!ide you other than that. .hat you ca the 7you7 i! nothing other than the
continuity o2 thought. I2 that arti2icia continuity i! not there, neither are you. The 7you7 (ant! ony
to 2unction on a di22erent, 7higher7 e#e, and not to co'e to an end. *ou (ant to 1e tran!2or'ed,
to 1eco'e !o'ething e!e, (hie continuing. The ony (ay the !e2 can do that i! to add 'ore
and 'ore e:perience! to tho!e it ha! aready accu'uated.
0+ How does this 4ro"ess o5 a""u8ulation wor36
,.G.: The only (ay the !e2 can add 'ore and 'ore 3no(edge and e:perience i! to ende!!y
a!3 it!e2 the 'eaninge!! 5ue!tion 7%o(8 %o( a' I to i#e87 I2 !o'eone te! you that the
continuity o2 3no(edge and e:perience 'u!t co'e to an end, you a!3, 7%o(87, and are right
1ac3 in the !a'e trap. *ou are 'erey a!3ing 2or the !a'e 3ind o2 3no(edge.
0+ %ut we 9ust want to 3now a!out enlighten8ent2 i5 is 4ossi!le ...
,.G.: *ou (ant to 3no( (hether there i! enighten'ent or not, (ho ha! it, and ho( to get it.
*ou are curiou! a1out ho( a !uppo!edy enightened 'an (oud 1eha#e, (hat i! the nature o2
hi! 1eha#ior pattern!, and !o on. Apparenty you 3no( a great dea a1out enighten'ent *ou
'u!t, 2or you are !earching 2or it.
0+ Not all o5 us are so naive as to thin3 we "an dire"tly sear"h 5or God2 enlighten8ent2 or
nirvana. So we "an a""e4t the illusory nature o5 su"h goals. %ut we are sear"hing 5or
8ore 4ra"ti"al2 tangi!le things li3e....
,.G.: Deope are oo3ing 2or enighten'ent. *ou !ay you are not, 1ut it i! the !a'e. .hether
you (ant a ne( car or !i'pe peace o2 'ind, it i! !ti a pain2u !earch. The !ecuar eader! te
you one (ay, the hoy 'en another (ay. It 'a3e! no di22erence: a! ong a! you are !earching
2or peace o2 'ind, you (i ha#e a tor'ented 'ind. I2 you try not to !earch, or i2 you continue to
!earch, you (i re'ain the !a'e. *ou ha#e to sto). *ou don;t !top !earching 1ecau!e !uch an
act (oud 1e the end o2 you.
*ou are o!t in a 9unge, and you ha#e no (ay o2 2inding your (ay out. Night i! 2a!t approaching,
the (id ani'a! are there, incuding the co1ra!, and !ti you are o!t. .hat do you do in !uch a
!ituation8 *ou 9u!t !top. *ou don;t 'o#e....
0+ %ut we "an never !e a!solutely sure that there is not some way out2 no 8atter how
5antasti" or i84ro!a!le it 8ay !e ...
,.G.: A! ong a! there i! that hope that you can !o'eho( or the other get out o2 the 9unge, !o
ong (i you continue (hat you are doing66!earching66and !o ong you 2ee o!t. *ou are o!t
ony 1ecau!e you are !earching. *ou ha#e no (ay o2 2inding your (ay out o2 the 9unge.
0+ So i5 one "ould 9ust stop....
,.G.: No, that;! not it at a. *ou !ti e:pect !o'ething to happen. That e:pectation i! part o2 the
pro1e'. That i! (hy you are pur!uing the!e 5ue!tion!. *our e:pectation! are part o2 your
de!ire to change e#erything. Nothing need! changing< you 'u!t accept i2e a! it i!. Through
7change7 you hope and e:pect to 1e 1orn again. .hat the he 2or8 Thi! i2e i! enough. There i!
no peace in thi! i2e, no ac3 o2 unhappine!!, !o you (ait unti your ne:t i2e to 1e happy. It;! not
(orth it. *ou 'ay #ery (e not 1e 1orn again. A2ter a, it i! ony a hope2u theory to you. *ou
'ay a! (e 2ind out 2or your!e2 i2 it i! po!!i1e to 1e at peace (ith your!e2 now.
0+ %ut all our as4irations2 whether 8aterial or s4iritual2 see8 to !e de5ined and "ast in
the 8old o5 our so"ieties2 whi"h are2 li3e ea"h o5 us2 "orru4t. Yet I 8ust live and struggle
within the li8its 8y so"iety has ere"ted around 8e. My li5e is not deter8ined solely !y
8y 4ersonal ai8s and attri!utes2 !ut !y what 8y so"iety allows 8e to do2 that is2 !y what
a"tual o44ortunities are 8ade availa!le.
,.G.: *ou (ant !o 'any thing!, and I a' not in a po!ition to hep you get any o2 the'. *ou are
not cear (hat you reay (ant. .hen that (hich you (ant i! 2uy recogni?ed, then you 'u!t 2ind
out ho( to get (hat you (ant. And either you get it or you don;t, that;! a. +o don;t 1other
!eparating your goa! into the o( and the o2ty. *ou ha#e 1een doing that a your i2e and ha#e
not !ucceeded.
0+ Not 9ust I2 !ut everyone I 3now see8s "aught in this tra4 o5 endless sear"hing and
struggle. 1e need2 do we not2 to sit down together and "o88uni"ate with ea"h other on
this ...6
,.G.: A! I !aid, I ha#e no iu!ion! a1out co''unication. *ou cannot !hare or co''unicate
your e:perience! (ith any1ody, 1ecau!e, the (ay you are no( 2unctioning, each indi#idua i#e!
in !eparate and di22erent (ord! (ithout any co''on re2erence point, and ony i'agine! that
you e#er co''unicate (ith another. It i! 9u!t not po!!i1e.
I cannot co''unicate and you cannot under!tand 1ecau!e you ha#e no re2erence point in
regard to (hat I a' !aying. .hen once you ha#e under!tood that there i! nothing to
under!tand, (hat i! there to co''unicate8 Co''unication i! 9u!t not nece!!ary. +o there i! no
point in di!cu!!ing the po!!i1iity o2 co''unication. *our de!ire to co''unicate i! part o2 your
genera !trategy o2 achie#e'ent. Ceied 1ehind that de!ire 2or co''unication i! the
dependency upon !o'e out!ide po(er to !o#e your pro1e'! 2or you. ":cept 2or the 5uite
natura need 2or practica co''unication nece!!ary to 2unction in thi! (ord, your intere!t in
co''unication i! reay an e:pre!!ion o2 your 2eeing! o2 hepe!!ne!! and your hope 2or the
!upport o2 !o'e out!ide agency. *our hepe!!ne!! per!i!t! 1ecau!e o2 your dependency upon
!o'e out!ide agency. .hen that dependency upon !o'e out!ide agency, 2ictitiou! or not, i! not
there, then the 2eeing! o2 hepe!!ne!! and the de!ire to co''unicate in the a1!tract, are not
there. I2 the one goe!, the other 'u!t go a!o. *our !ituation and pro!pect! ony !ee' hopee!!
1ecau!e you ha#e idea! o2 hope. )noc3 o22 that hope and the cripping 2eeing! o2 hepe!!ne!!
go (ith it. There i! 1ound to 1e hepe!!ne!! and o#er(he'ing 2ru!tration a! ong a! you e:i!t
in reation!hip (ith the hope 2or 2u2i'ent, 1ecau!e there i! no 2u2i'ent at a. Thi! i! the
!ource o2 your die''a.
0+ All this is 9ust too 8u"h to "o84rehend and a"t u4on i88ediately. erha4s at so8e
ti8e in the 5uture2 when I a8 8ore a!le....
,.G.: The 2uture i! created 1y hope, that i! the ony 2uture that e:i!t!. The hope o2 achie#ing
your goa, the hope o2 attaining enighten'ent, the hope o2 !o'eho( getting o22 the 'erry6go6
round 66 that i! the 2uture. The point 2ro' (hich you pro9ect your!e2 into the 2uture appear! to
you to 1e the pre!ent, the no(. But thi! i! 'i!ta3en. There i! ony the pa!t in operation, and that
'o#e'ent create! the iu!ion o2 pre!ent and 2uture. *ou 'ay 2ind (hat I a' !aying here
ogica, or iogica, and you 'ay accept or re9ect it. But it (i in any ca!e 1e the pa!t that i!
doing !o, 2or that i! a that i! in operation (ithin you. It i! the pa!t that ha! pro9ected the!e
goa!66God, enighten'ent, peace o2 'ind, (hate#er66and ha! paced the' in the 2uture, out o2
reach. +o happine!! i! a(ay! in the 2uture, to'orro(. A happy 'an (oudn;t 1e intere!ted in
!ee3ing happine!!. A (e62ed 'an i! not in !earch o2 2ood.
0+ Surely real understanding2 o5 whi"h we are all 8ore or less "a4a!le2 ta3es 4la"e not in
the 5uture2 !ut now2 in the 4resent.
,.G.: There i! ony the pa!t. *ou ha#e 1een tod 1y hoy 'en (ho ta3 o2 enighten'ent and
!uch non!en!e that the pa!t ha! got to co'e to a !top 1e2ore you are 2ree to operate in the
7pre!ent7 and !o reai?e your potentia or 2uture po!!i1iitie!. Thi! I deny.
&ir!t o2 a, (hy !houd you 1e intere!ted in atte'pting to !top the pa!t 2ro' inter2ering (ith the
pre!ent8 Be #ery cear that thi! idea that the pa!t 'u!t die, that ti'e 'u!t ha#e an end, ha!
1een put into you 1y tho!e !e26appointed guardian! o2 your !o6caed !ou 66 the prie!t!, hoy
'en, and !a#ior! o2 'an3ind. It i! not your! at a. *ou need to 1e #ery cear a!o a1out the
i'pication! o2 ending the in2uence o2 the pa!t. It i! reay a dangerou!, caa'itou! thing. In your
!earch to 2ind the end o2 ti'e, the pa!t, you 'u!t u!e the pa!t. +o you ony !ucceed in
perpetuating the pa!t. Thi! i! a 2act, i3e it or not. Anything you do66ha#ing 3inder thought!,
1eha#ing !e2e!!y, approaching i2e negati#ey rather than po!iti#ey, i!tening to hoy 'en,
i!tening to 'e 66 i! ony adding 'o'entu' to the pa!t. A the techni5ue! and 'ethod! o2
achie#e'ent at your di!po!a are 2ro' the pa!t, and, there2ore, u!ee!!. >uc3iy, there i!
a1!outey nothing to 1e achie#ed.
0+ Yes2 !ut I thin3 8ost o5 us reali;e that real ha44iness is a !y:4rodu"t o5 so8ething
else2 and "annot !e a"hieved in and o5 itsel5.
,.G.: *our actua approach to happine!! i! grounded in !e26intere!t and nai#ete. *ou are a
pea!ure !ee3er at a ti'e!, and there2ore your idea o2 the greate!t happine!! i! !i'py one o2
ende!! pea!ure (ithout any pain. .hen you percei#e, i2 you do at a, the a1!urdity o2 !uch an
approach, you then !ay, 7I2 I coud 2ind God and enighten'ent I (oud 1e 2ree 2ro' the
contradictory de!ire to ha#e the one Apea!ureB (ithout the other ApainB.7 +o thi! then 1eco'e!
your goa, (hich (i ta3e 'ore ti'e to achie#e. *ou are 1ac3 (here you !tarted.
To de'and the ce!!ation o2 the continuity o2 the 'o#e'ent o2 the pa!t i! ridicuou! and
un2ounded. .e ha#e 1een 1rain(a!hed 1y a the!e peope that i2 (e 2ree our!e#e! 2ro' the
pa!t in thi! i2e, e#erything (i 1e hun3y6dory, 2u o2 ightne!! and !(eetne!!. It i! a ro'antic
hog(a!h, !heer unaduterated 2anta!y, and nothing 'ore. *ou ha#e 2aen 2or thi! !tu22,
un2ortunatey. A2ter a, (hat i! it that you can do8 A your action! are 2ro' the pa!t. And
anything you do ony !trengthen! the hod o2 pea!ure and pain upon you. ,ti'atey it i! a pain
and no pea!ure. I can !ay that (ith certainty, 1ut you are !ti coc36!ure that there i! a ti'ee!!
!tate, a (ay out. It i! there2ore i'po!!i1e 2or u! to co''unicate. .hat I a' !aying (i, i2 reay
i!tened to, put an end to you a! you 3no( and e:perience your!e2. *ou are not i!tening to 'e
at a. *our !o6caed i!tening i! a in the pa!t. The con!tant interpretation 1y the pa!t o2 (hat i!
1eing !aid pre#ent! you 2ro' i!tening to (hat i! 1eing !aid.
A I can guarantee you i! that a! ong a! you are !earching 2or happine!!, you (i re'ain
unhappy. Thi! i! a 2act. +ociety i! !o organi?ed and co'pe: that you ha#e no other (ay o2
!ur#i#ing e:cept to accept the (ay o2 i2e around you a! organi?ed, aong (ith the i'itation! it
pace! upon a o2 u!. .e 'u!t a accept the reaity o2 !ociety, (hether (e i3e it or not. But thi!
i! not (hat (e are ta3ing a1out. .hat (e are ta3ing a1out i! atogether di22erent. A your
reation!hip!, 3no(edge, and e:perience!, a your e'otion! and 2eeing!, a that ro'antic
!tu22, 1eong! entirey to !ociety, not to you. *ou are not an indi#idua at a< you are !econdhand
peope.
@ny (hen you are 2ree 2ro' (hat e#ery 'an and (o'an ha! thought and 2et 1e2ore you (i
you 1eco'e an indi#idua. +uch an indi#idua (i not go around atte'pting to de!troy
e#erything that 1eong! to !ociety. %e i! not in con2ict (ith !ociety at a. %e (oud ne#er tear
do(n the te'pe! and in!titution! or 1urn 1oo3! that 'en ha#e 'ade (ith great care. %e (oud
not 1e a re1e. A the accu'uated 3no(edge, e:perience, and !u22ering o2 'an3ind i! in!ide o2
you. *ou 'u!t 1uid a huge 1on2ire (ithin you. Then you (i 1eco'e an indi#idua. There i! no
other (ay. +ociety i! 1uit on a 2oundation o2 con2ict, and you are society. There2ore you must
a(ay! 1e in con2ict (ith !ociety. The rea indi#idua, one (ho i! 2ree o2 the accu'uated
tradition and 3no(edge o2 'an3ind, i! nece!!ariy a threat to that !ociety. +ociety, o2 (hich you
are a part, cannot 1e other than it i!. +o !top trying to !a#e it or change it. *ou cannot e#en
change your 'other6in6a(.
0+ Not all o5 us are so o!sessed with our own 4ersonal ha44iness and salvation. Many o5
us are so"ially2 4oliti"ally aware2 and 8erely wish to "reate a new world2 a di55erently
organi;ed so"iety2 so that 4overty2 in9usti"e2 and other so"ial wrongs are "orre"ted. You
tal3 as i5 we all were 5i7ated on only our own 4ersonal 4ro!le8s and goals2 while in 5a"t
8ost o5 us want to !e o5 servi"e to the world and see3 not sel5ish ends2 !ut si84ly a
!etter2 8ore hu8ane so"iety.
,.G.: *ou (ant to change your!e2 into !o'ething and at the !a'e ti'e 2ind you cannot change
at a. Thi! 7change7 you ta3 o2 i! reay 9u!t 'ore ro'antic 2ancy !tu22 2or you. *ou ne#er
change, ony thin3 a1out changing. A! ong a! you (ant to change, 2or !o'e rea!on or the
other, !o ong (i you in!i!t upon changing the (hoe (ord. *ou (ant a di22erent (ord !o that
you can 1e happy in it. That i! your ony intere!t. *ou can ta3 o2 'an3ind, concern 2or 'an3ind,
co'pa!!ion 2or 'an3ind, 1ut it i! a 1u!hit, hor!e!hit ...
+ince you are deter'ined to 1ring a1out change 66 a notion put into you 1y your cuture 66 you
re'ain di!content and (ant the (ord to 1e di22erent. .hen your inner de'and to 1e !o'ething
di22erent 2ro' (hat in 2act you are co'e! to an end, then the neurotic de'and to change your
!ociety cea!e!. Then you cannot 1e in con2ict (ith !ociety. *ou are in per2ect har'ony (ith
!ociety, incuding it! 1rutaitie! and 'i!erie!. A your atte'pt! to change thi! 1ruta !ociety ony
add 'o'entu' to it. Thi! i! not to !ay that the 2ree indi#idua i! indi22erent to !ociety. @n the
contrary. In any ca!e, it i! you (ho are indi22erent right no(. *ou ony ta3 and (hine, 'ean(hie
doing nothing. +orry....
0+ %ut it is very urgent that we have 4ea"e in the world ...
,.G.: ,ne!! you are at peace (ith your!e2, there cannot 1e peace around the (ord. .hen are
you going to 1e at peace your!e28 Ne:t i2e8 No chance. .ait, you (i !ee. "#en then there i!
no guarantee that your !ociety (i 1e peace2u. They (i not 1e at peace. .hen you are at
peace (ith your!e2, that i! the end o2 the !tory.
0+ It see8s that we have only this idea o5 a 4ea"e5ul so"iety2 while a"tually our
relationshi4 to others is quite violent. How do we !ridge this ga4 !etween the ideal and
the a"tual6
,.G.: *ou are trying to e!ta1i!h reation!hip! (ith peope around you, (ith !ociety, (ith the
(hoe (ord. &or !o'e rea!on or other the actua reation!hip! are #ery ugy and horri1e. %a#e
you noticed that a! ong a! our reation!hip! !ati!2y the 5ue!tion, 7.hat can I get out o2 thi!
reation!hip87, a! ong a! they can 1e directed to !er#e 'y per!ona happine!!, there i! no
con2ict8 "#ery per!on i! in the !a'e !ituation: hi! reation!hip! are har'oniou! a! ong a! they
!er#e hi! o(n idea! o2 happine!!. And (e a!o de'and that our happine!! 1e per'anent. In
the #ery nature o2 thing! thi! i! i'po!!i1e. There i! no !uch thing a! per'anence at a.
"#erything i! con!tanty changing. "#erything i! in 2u:. Becau!e you cannot 2ace the
i'per'anence o2 a reation!hip!, you in#ent !enti'ent!, ro'ance, and dra'atic e'otion! to
gi#e the' continuity. There2ore you are a(ay! in con2ict.
0+ So 4erha4s we should a!andon the sear"h 5or 4er5e"t2 har8onious relationshi4s and
"on"entrate on understanding ourselves :: is that it6
,.G.: ,nder!tanding your!e2 i! one o2 the greate!t 9o3e!, perpetrated on the gui1e and
creduou! peope e#ery(here, not ony 1y the pur#eyor! o2 ancient (i!do'66the hoy 'en661ut
a!o 1y the 'odern !cienti!t!. The p!ychoogi!t! o#e to ta3 a1out !e263no(edge, !e26
actuai?ation, i#ing 2ro' 'o'ent to 'o'ent, and !uch rot. The!e a1!urd idea! are thro(n at u!
a! i2 they are !o'ething ne(.
0+ This 8ust !e !oring 5or you2 res4onding to the sa8e old questions wherever you go.
,.G.: I ha#e 1een e#ery(here in the (ord, 'eeting and ta3ing (ith peope. Deope are e:acty
the !a'e the (ord o#er. The 5ue!tion! ne#er #ary. But I a' ne#er 1ored (ith it. %o( can I 1e
1ored8 I2 I (ere !o'e !ort o2 2oo getting !o'e !ort o2 3ic3 out o2 thi!, oo3ing 2or ne(, 1etter
and di22erent 5ue!tion!, then there (oud 1e a po!!i1iity o2 getting 1ored. But I a' not oo3ing
2or anything +o 1oredo' i! i'po!!i1e. Are you 1ored8 *ou ha#e no (ay o2 2inding out 2or
your!e2.
0+ I a8 !ored !e"ause I a8 average2 li3e everyone else. It is 8y 8edio"rity that 8a3es
li5e see8 so e84ty and !oring ...
,.G.: It i! #ery di22icut to 1e i3e the other 2eo(, to 1e ordinary. 4ediocrity ta3e! a great dea o2
energy. But to 1e our!e#e! i! #ery ea!y. *ou don;t ha#e to do a thing. No e22ort i! nece!!ary.
*ou don;t ha#e to e:erci!e your (i. *ou need not do a thing to 1e your!e2. But to 1e
!o'ething other than (hat you are, you ha#e to do a ot o2 thing!. The 1oredo' and
re!te!!ne!! you 2ee in!ide you i! there ony 1ecau!e you thin3 you 'u!t 1e doing !o'ething
'ore intere!ting, 'ore 'eaning2u, and 'ore #aua1e than (hat you are aready doing. *ou
thin3 that the (ay you are carrying on i! terri1e 1oring, and that there must 1e !o'ething 'ore
#aua1e, po(er2u, and e:citing to do. +o a thi! 1eco'e! part o2 the co'pe: 3no(edge you
ha#e a1out your!e2. The 'ore you 3no( a1out your!e2 the 'ore i'po!!i1e it 1eco'e! to 1e
hu'1e and !en!iti#e. %o( can there 1e hu'iity a! ong a! you 3no( !o'ething8
0+ There is so8ething in 8e that 5inds it di55i"ult to !e si84le a!out all this. There see8s
to !e a 5ear o5....
,.G.: A 2ear! ead e#entuay to the 2ear o2 death, phy!ica death. *ou are atte'pting to pu!h
the 2ear o2 death (ay into the 1ac3ground !o you can continue, that i! a. A! ong a! you are
2ear6ridden, there can 1e no !en!e in di!cu!!ing the 'eaning o2 i2e. .hy a!3 5ue!tion! and
'y!ti2y i2e8 *ou are ai#e 1ecau!e your parent! had !e:, period. Fon;t oo3 2or a 'eaning to
i2e. There 'ay not 1e any 'eaning at a. It 'ay ha#e it! o(n 'eaning that you can ne#er
3no(. @1#iou!y i2e ha! no 'eaning 2or you. @ther(i!e you (oud not 1e here a!3ing the!e
5ue!tion!. "#erything you do !ee'! a1!outey 'eaninge!!, that i! the 2act, Fon;t 1other a1out
other!. The (hoe (ord i! an e:ten!ion o2 you. The (ay you are thin3ing, 2eeing, and
e:periencing i! e:acty the !a'e (ay e#eryone e!e in thi! (ord i! thin3ing, 2eeing, and
e:periencing. The goa 'ay 1e di22erent, 1ut the 'echani!' and in!tru'ent you are u!ing to
achie#e your particuar goa i! not a (hit di22erent 2ro' that u!ed 1y other! to achie#e their!.
.hy !houd there 1e any 'eaning in i#ing8 The 'o'ent a 1a1y arri#e! in the (ord it i!
intere!ted in one thing: !ur#i#a. The in!tinct in the 1a1y to 2eed it!e2, to !ur#i#e, and to
reproduce it!e2 !ee'! to 1e the (ay o2 i2e. It i! i2e e:pre!!ing it!e2. That i! a. *ou needn;t
i'po!e a 'eaning upon it.
0+ .iving itsel5 does not see8 to !e enough. 1e have as4irations and goals2 and we 5eel
that there 8ust !e a 8ore sane and 8eaning5ul way o5 living.
,.G.: In!tead o2 i#ing, you are o1!e!!ed (ith the 5ue!tion, 7%o( a' I to i#e87 That die''a i!
put into u! 1y our cuture, and i! the one re!pon!i1e 2or 'any o2 our pro1e'!. Becau!e you
are dead, not i#ing (hat (e ca i2e, you are concerned (ith %@. to i#e. I2 you !ucceed in
getting rid o2 the idea o2 !o'eho( i#ing a 1etter, no1er, and 'ore 'eaning2u i2e, you (i
repace that 1eie2 (ith another. *ou 'u!t 2ace the 2act that you 3no( nothing a1out i2e or the
i#ing o2 it.
0+ In s4ite o5 the 5a"t that we are not living2 we are terri5ied o5 death.
,.G.: The 1ody re!pond! to i2e around it: the pu!e o2 the heart, the #ariou! phy!ioogica
proce!!e!, the thro1 o2 i2e a indicate the pre!ence o2 i2e. .hen the!e proce!!e! !top, then
(hat you ca cinica death ta3e! pace. Ne:t (e o1!er#e the 1ody 1rea3ing do(n into it!
con!tituent ee'ent!, in turn a!!u'ing ne( and di22erent i2e 2or'!. But thi! continuity o2 i2e in
ne( 2or'! i! itte con!oation to you, 2or you (ant to continue in your pre!ent 2or', (art! and
a. I2 you 1ury the 1ody, the (or'! ha#e a 2ied day. I2 you thro( it into the (ater, the 2i!h (i
ha#e a 2ea!t. That i2e (i continue no 'atter (hat. But you (i not 1e there to e:perience
death. There i! ony death in the cinica !en!e.
0+ I5 I a8 not really living2 i5 I "annot 3now death2 i5 I really don<t give a da8n a!out
so"iety2 i5 8y li5e is a"tually 8eaningless2 i5 8y hard:won sel5:3nowledge is 9ust an
e74ression o5 ignoran"e2 then what I ta3e to !e reality is a 4ro9e"tion o5 8y own 8ind ...
,.G.: .here i! thi! 'ind you ta3 o28 Can you !ho( it to 'e8 There i! no !uch thing a! your
'ind and 'y 'ind. 4ind i! e#ery(here, !ort o2 i3e the air (e 1reathe. There i! a thought
!phere. It i! not our! and not 'ine. It i! a(ay! there. *our 1rain act! i3e an antenna, pic3ing
and choo!ing (hat !igna! it (ant! to u!e. That i! a. *ou u!e the !igna! 2or purpo!e! o2
co''unication.
&ir!t o2 a, (e ha#e to co''unicate (ith our!e#e!. .e 1egin a! chidren na'ing e#erything
o#er and o#er again. Co''unicating (ith other! i! a itte 'ore co'pe: and co'e! ne:t. The
pro1e', or the pathoogy i2 you (i, ari!e! (hen you con!tanty co''unicate (ith your!e2,
irre!pecti#e o2 any out!ide de'and 2or thought. *ou are a the ti'e co''unicating (ith
your!e2: 7I a' happy....I a' not happy.....hat i! the 'eaning o2 i2e8...7 and !o on. I2 that
ince!!ant co''unication (ithin your!e2 i! not there, you are not there a! you no( 3no( and
e:perience your!e2. .hen that inner 'onoogue i! no onger there, the need to co''unicate
(ith other! i! a1!ent. +o you co''unicate (ith other! ony to 'aintain that co''unication you
are ha#ing (ith your!e2, your inner 'onoogue. Thi! 3ind o2 co''unication i! po!!i1e ony
(hen you rey and dra( upon the #a!t totaity o2 thought! pa!!ed on 1y 'an 2ro' generation to
generation. 4an ha! through the proce!! o2 e#oution earned to dra( 2ro' thi! !torehou!e
5uic3er, !u1ter, and 'ore re2ined thought! than the re!t o2 the ani'a!. They ha#e po(er2u
in!tinct!. Through thin3ing 'an ha! ena1ed hi'!e2 to !ur#i#e 'ore e22icienty than the other
!pecie!. Thi! a1iity o2 thought to adapt i! the cur!e o2 'an.
0+ 1hether you lay it at the door o5 so"iety2 the genes2 evolution or the in5luen"e o5 the
stars2 it "o8es down to the sa8e thing+ we are all dee4ly "onditioned and need to !e 5ree
o5 that "onditioning in order to 5un"tion naturally and 5reely. This is o!vious2 isn<t it6
,.G.: It i! not at a o1#iou! to 'e. It i! 9u!t not po!!i1e 2or you to 1e (ithout conditioning. No
'atter (hat you do, you are conditioned. The 7unconditioning7 that the !piritua guru! are ta3ing
a1out i! a 1ogu! a22air. The notion o2 1eing unconditioned, o2 unconditioning one!e2, i! 9u!t
another ite' 2or !ae in the 'ar3etpace o2 the hoy 1u!ine!!. It ha! no #aidity. *ou (i 2ind out.
Anything you do i! conditioned. ,nconditioning your!e2 ha! no 'eaning. .hat you ha#e to 1e
2ree 2ro' i! the #ery de!ire to 1e 2ree 2ro' conditioning. Conditioning i! inteigence, the a1iity to
re!pond ade5uatey to the en#iron'ent. Thi! i! entirey unreated to your 2anta!ie!, ideation!,
and 'entation!, (hat you ta3e to 1e the height! o2 inteigence.
0+ I5 inquiry2 sel5:3nowledge2 and un"onditioning don<t hel4 to solve 8y !asi" dile88a2
then 4erha4s s"ien"e "an hel4 through li5e:e7tension te"hniques or geneti"
engineering ...
,.G.: "#en genetic engineering that the !cienti!t! are induging in i! not 2or the 1ene2it o2
'an3ind. I2 they !ucceed, it (i 1e handed o#er to the !tate. The !tate (i u!e it to contro
e#erything and e#eryone. Brain(a!hing, (hich ta3e! centurie!, (oud 1e o1!oete. Through a
!i'pe in9ection o2 geneticay engineered !u1!tance! into the 1ody, the !tate can turn it!
citi?en! into 1oodthir!ty !odier!, 'inde!! 1ureaucrat!, or (hate#er type it (ant!.
0+ erha4s we are "o84li"ating it. Could it !e that we are all 9ust too shallow in thought2
that we only la"3 su55i"ient vision and 8ental s"o4e6
,.G.: &orget it. In any e#ent your action! 'u!t 1e de!tructi#e o2 'an;! uti'ate intere!t!, 2or
they are 1orn out o2 thought, (hich i! a dead thing. &orcing i2e to 2it your dead idea! and
a!!u'ption! i! your 1a!ic di22icuty. "#erything you !tand 2or, 1eie#e in, e:perience, and a!pire
to i! the re!ut o2 thought. And thought i! de!tructi#e 1ecau!e it i! nothing 'ore than a
protecti#e 'echani!', progra''ed to protect it! o(n intere!t! at a co!t!. Anyho(, are there
reay thought!8 Are you thin3ing no(8 *ou ha#e no (ay o2 3no(ing.
0+ %ut it is a su4erhu8an tas3 to 5ully understand though2 is it not6 All religions and
i84ortant 4hiloso4hies have 4ut !e5ore us a 8ore or less su4erhu8an 5igure who has
so8ehow trans"ended the relative world::the world o5 thought i5 you will::and attained
great heights. %ut we are ordinary 8en not "a4a!le o5 "olossal2 5earless2 or intre4id
a"tions.
,.G.: I2 you are 2reed 2ro' the goa o2 the Gper2ect;, Ggody;, or Gtruy reigiou!; !uper'en, then
that (hich i! natura in 'an 1egin! to e:pre!! it!e2. *our reigiou! and !ecuar cuture ha!
paced 1e2ore you the idea 'an or (o'an, the per2ect hu'an 1eing, and then trie! to 2it
e#ery1ody into that 'od. It i! i'po!!i1e. Nature i! 1u!y creating a1!outey uni5ue indi#idua!,
(herea! cuture ha! in#ited a !inge 'od to (hich a 'u!t con2or'. It i! grote!5ue.
0+ So you are not a 4er5e"t 8an as so8e "lai86
,.G.: I (i!h I 3ne(, 1ut I don;t (ant to 1other. .ho care!8 I ha#e no (ay o2 2inding out, and i2 I
did, it (oud 1e a tragedy 2or the (ord. They (oud 'a3e o2 'e a 'ode and atte'pt to i#e a
certain (ay, creating a di!a!ter 2or 'an3ind. .e ha#e enough guru!, (hy add one 'ore8
0+ I5 you are not a tea"her2 a guru o5 so8e sort2 then why do you tal3 to us6 It a44ears to
us that you are giving so8e 3ind o5 instru"tion2 that you are e74ressing a tea"hing that
"an !e o5 use to 8an3ind.
,.G.: I a' 9u!t !inging 'y !ong, then I go. I2 !o'eone i!ten! to 'e or not, it i! not 'y concern.
I don;t con!ider any hypothetica !ituation. I2 no1ody co'e! and ta3!, it i! a right (ith 'e.
Beie#e 'e, 'y ta3ing i! ony incidenta, it i! not ai'ed at i1erating anyone. I;#e 1een co'ing
to thi! area 2or thirty year!. I2 you are not here, 'ay1e I; (atch the TC, or read cri'e 2iction 66
it;! a the !a'e 2or 'e. I a' not !eing anything. Thi! i! !o. I a' !i'py pointing out that at the
rate at (hich (e are going the (hoe genetic engineering technoogy (i end up in the hand! o2
the poitica !y!te' to 1e u!ed 2or the co'pete contro and !u19ugation o2 'an.
0+ I5 this danger is really so i88inent2 then it is urgent that others =stu8!le= into their
natural state2 as you indi"ate ha44ened to you2 i5 5or no other reason than to 4rove the
e7isten"e o5 an alternative to geneti" totalitarianis8. 1ould you go along with this6
,.G.: No. Thi! natura !tate cannot 1e u!ed to 2urther anyone;! cru!ade. Nor a' I intere!ted in
!etting 'y!e2 up a! an archetype or prophet 2or 'an3ind. I a' not intere!ted in !ati!2ying the
curio!ity o2 any1ody. The !cienti!t! are 'a3ing tre'endou! progre!! in the 2ied! o2
'icro1ioogy and ganduar and 1rain phy!ioogy. They (i !oon ha#e enough !ophi!tication in
the!e area! to under!tand the phy!ioogica 'utation that too3 pace (ithin 'e. I per!onay
cannot 'a3e any de2inite !tate'ent e:cept to !ay that the (hoe 'echani!' i! an auto'atic
thing. The inter2erence o2 thought i! not there any'ore. Thought i! 2unctiona in #aue, nothing
'ore. It operate! te'porariy here (hen there i! a de'and 2ro' the en#iron'ent, 1ut cannot
act (ith regard to 1eco'ing !o'ething or to changing thing! there. Thi! i! a. That i! energy,
an energy that can 'a3e 2unctioning in thi! (ord !aney and inteigenty an ea!y a22air. No(
you are (a!ting that energy 1y atte'pting to 1e !o'ething other than (hat you in 2act are. Then
you (i ha#e a certainty (hich cannot 1e tran!'itted 1y 'e or 1y any1ody.
I ha#e di!co#ered 2or 'y!e2 and 1y 'y!e2, that (hat (e ha#e 1een tod a1out 2reedo',
enighten'ent, and God i! 2a!e. No po(er in the (ord can touch thi!. Thi! doe! not 'a3e 'e
!uperior. Nothing o2 the !ort. To 2ee !uperior or in2erior you 'u!t !eparate your!e2 2ro' the
(ord. I do not oo3 upon the (ord a! a !eparate thing a! you do. The 3no(edge I ha#e 1out
the (ord66(hether (ithin or (ithout66co'e! into operation ony (hen there i! a de'and 2or it.
@ther(i!e I !i'py don;t 3no(. *our natura !tate i! one o2 not 3no(ing.
0+ You 8a3e no s4e"ial "lai8s 5or yoursel5. Yet your listeners2 in"luding 8ysel52 sense a
"ertainty and authority in what you say. Does not this indi"ate that you are in 5a"t a 5ree
8an6
,.G.: The 3no(edge that you are thi!, that you are that, that you are happy, that you are
unhappy, that you are a reai?ed 'an, that you are not a reai?ed 'an, i! co'petey a1!ent
here. *ou, or I, ha#e no (ay o2 3no(ing i2 (e are 2ree 'en. Nothing te! 'e that I a' a 2ree
'an. In your ca!e the na'ing proce!!, the (anting !o'ething, the 5ue!tioning goe! on and on
no 'atter (hat. %ere thought 2unction! ony 2ro' a !ti'uu! 2ro' the out!ide. "#en then the
re!pon!e o2 3no(edge i! in!tantaneou!, and I a' 1ac3 again i3e a 1ig 5ue!tion 'ar3. *our
con!tant de'and to e:perience the !a'e thing o#er and o#er again re!ut! in co'pu!i#e,
repetiti#e thin3ing. I don;t !ee any need or rea!on 2or the repetiti#e proce!! to go on and on. In
'y ca!e there i! no one !eparate 2ro' thi! 2unctioning, no one (ho can !tep 1ac3 and !ay,
7Thi! i! reaity.7 There i! no !uch thing a! reaity at a. =eaity i! i'po!ed upon u! 1y cuture,
!ociety, and education. Fon;t get 'e (rong. Thought ha! a 2unctiona #aue. I2 (e don;t accept
the (ord a! it i! i'po!ed on u!, (e (i end up in the oony 1in. I ha#e to accept it a! a reati#e
2act. @ther(i!e there i! no (ay o2 e:periencing the reaity o2 anything. It i! thought that ha!
created the reaity o2 your 1ody, o2 your i#ing, o2 your !eep, and o2 a your perception!. *ou
e:perience thi! reaity through 3no(edge. @ther(i!e there i! no (ay o2 your 3no(ing 2or
your!e2 that you ha#e a 1ody, that you are ai#e, that you are a(a3e. A that i! 3no(edge. The
reaity o2 anything i! !o'ething (hich cannot 1e e:perienced 1y any1ody.
0+ 1e have 5ound this tal3 8ost interesting. Than3 you very 8u"h.
,.G.: Than3 you.
Notes+
1B 0haga(ad +ita : @ne o2 the 'a9or !cripture! o2 %indui!'. @22iciay part o2 the epic
4aha1harata. Teache! di22erent path! to union (ith God Aor i1erationB incuding 7di!intere!ted
action7.
$B Go(dapada: Ac.E80 A.F.B The phio!opher (ho re#i#ed the 'oni!tic teaching o2 the
,pani!had!. %i! pupi Go#inda i! the teacher o2 +a'3ara, the 2a'ou! Ad#aita Anon6duai!tB
phio!opher. %e i! the author o2 Mandukya2karika, a co''entary on the 4andu3ya ,pani!had.
3B 0rahmasutra: A centra !cripture o2 the Cedanta reigion.
CHAT$, ) + 1$ HA/$ C,$AT$D THIS ?UNG.$ S#CI$TY
0+ I was reading your !oo3 the other day2 U.G.2 and I 8ust "on5ess that I ended u4 with
the 5eeling that all your argu8ents ulti8ately lead not towards ho4e2 !ut the inevita!ility
o5 hu8an su55ering and des4air. A8 I right6
,.G.: Ba!icay, I don;t !ee any 2uture 2or 'an. It i! not that I a' a doo'!ayer, 1ut rather that
anything that i! 1orn out o2 di#i!ion in 'en (i uti'atey de!troy hi' and hi! 3ind. +o I don;t
drea' or hope 2or a peace2u (ord.
0+ Is that so !e"ause o5 the inevita!ility o5 violen"e6
,.G.: Becau!e the ine#ita1iity o2 (ar i! in you. The 'iitary (ar! out there are the e:ten!ion o2
(hat i! going on a the ti'e in!ide you. .hy i! there a (ar (aging in!ide you8 Becau!e you
!earch 2or peace. The in!tru'ent you are u!ing in your atte'pt to 1e at peace (ith your!e2 i!
(ar.
There i! aready peace in 'an. *ou need not !earch. The i#ing organi!' i! 2unctioning in an
e:traordinariy peace2u (ay. 4an;! !earch 2or truth i! 1orn out o2 thi! !a'e !earch 2or peace.
%e ony end! up di!tur1ing and #ioating the peace that i! aready there in the 1ody. +o (hat (e
are e2t (ith i! the (ar (ithin 'an, and the (ar (ithout. It;! an e:ten!ion o2 the !a'e thing.
@ur !earch in thi! (ord 2or peace, 1eing 1a!ed upon (ar2are, (i ead ony to (ar, to(ard!
'an;! da'nation.
0+ Many 4hiloso4hies2 in"luding Mar7is82 say that war and struggle are inevita!le.
,.G.: True, they are ine#ita1e. The 4ar:i!t! and other! po!it a the!i! (hich, through !trugge,
1eco'e! an antithe!i!, and !o on. The!e are phio!ophica in#ention! de#i!ed to gi#e i2e !o'e
coherence and direction. I, on the other hand, 'aintain that i2e 'ay ha#e !tarted ar1itrariy, it
'ay ha#e 1een put together 1y accident. 4an;! e22ort! to gi(e i2e direction can ony 'eet (ith
2ru!tration, 2or life has no direction at all.
But thi! doe! not i'py that the 'i!!ie! are on their (ay, that doo'!day i! 9u!t around the
corner. 4an;! in!tinct 2or !ur#i#a i! #ery deep6rooted. .hat I a' !aying i! that a thi! !(eet ta3
o2 peace, co'pa!!ion, and o#e ha! not touched 'an at a. It;! ru11i!h.
.hat 3eep! peope together i! terror. The terror o2 'utua e:tinction ha! had a !trong and
ancient in2uence upon 'an. Thi! i!, o2 cour!e, no guarantee. I don;t 3no(.
0+ Now the 4ro!le8 is greatly in"reased !y the 5a"t that our te"hnologies guarantee the
e7tin"tion o5 all li5e 5or8s2 not 9ust 8an2 in the event war !rea3s out at the higher levels.
,.G.: The day 'an 2et thi! !e26con!ciou!ne!! in hi', (hich 'ade hi' 2ee !uperior to e#ery
other !pecie! on the panet, i! the day he !et out on the road to co'pete and tota !e26
de!truction. I2 'an i! de!troyed, pro1a1y nothing i! o!t. ,n2ortunatey, the in!tru'ent! o2
de!truction he ha! 1een a1e to !toc3pie o#er the age! are getting (or!e and (or!e, 'ore and
'ore dangerou!. 3e will take e(erything with him when he goes&
0+ >ro8 where does this !asi" urge to assu8e 8astery over hi8sel5 and the world arise6
,.G.: It! gene!i! (a! in the reigiou! idea that 'an i! at the center o2 the uni#er!e. &or
e:a'pe, the /e(! and Chri!tian! 1eie#e that e#erything i! created 2or the 1ene2it o2 'an. That
i! (hy 'an i! no onger a part o2 nature. %e ha! pouted, de!troyed, and 3ied o22 e#erything,
a on account o2 hi! (anting to 1e at the center o2 the uni#er!e, o2 a creation.
0+ %ut 8an has to !elong so8ewhere2 surely2 even i5 it is not at the "enter o5 "reation.
The 5all re4resents the !eginning2 not the end o5 8an.
,.G.: The doctrine o2 the &a co'e! in #ery handy 2or Chri!tian!, that;! a< it doe!n;t 'ean a
thing. The (hoe Chri!tian tradition e:poit! thi! idea o2 @rigina +in to the hit, re!uting in
'a!!acre, 1ood!hed, and !uch incredi1e #ioence.
0+ 1ell2 $astern 4hiloso4hies tal3 o5 a =still "enter= that "an !e 5ound through 8editation
...
,.G.: I 5ue!tion the #ery e:i!tence, the #ery idea o2 the !e2, the 'ind, or the p!yche. I2 you
accept the concept o2 the !e2 Aand it i! a conceptB, you are 2ree to pur!ue and gain !e26
3no(edge. But (e ne#er 5ue!tion the idea o2 the !e2, do (e8
0+ 1hat is this sel5 you are tal3ing o56
,.G.: *ou are intere!ted in the !e2, not I. .hate#er it i!, it i! the 'o!t i'portant thing 2or 'an a!
ong a! he i! ai#e.
0+ I e7ist2 there5ore2 I a8. Is that it6 Des"artes6
,.G.: *ou ha#e ne#er 5ue!tioned the 1a!ic thing a!!u'ed here. That i!: * think, there2ore, I a'.
I2 you don;t thin3 it ne#er occur! to you that you are ai#e or dead. +ince (e thin3 a the ti'e,
the #ery 1irth o2 thought create! 2ear, and it i! out o2 2ear that a e:perience !pring!. Both
7inner7 and 7outer7 (ord! proceed 2ro' a point o2 thought. "#erything you e:perience i! 1orn
out o2 thought. +o, e#erything you e:perience, or can e:perience, i! an iu!ion.
The !e26a1!orption in thought create! a !e26centeredne!! in 'an< that i! a that i! there. A
reation!hip! 1a!ed upon that (i ine#ita1y create 'i!ery 2or 'an. The!e are 1ogu!
reation!hip!. A! 2ar a! you are concerned, there i! no !uch thing a! a reation!hip. And yet
!ociety de'and! not 9u!t reation!hip!, 1ut )ermanent reation!hip!.
0+ 1ould you "onsider yoursel5 an $7istentialist6
,.G.: No, don;t thin3 you can put a a1e on 'e. The ":i!tentiai!t! ta3 o2 de!pair and a1!urdity.
But they ha#e ne#er reay co'e to grip! (ith de!pair or a1!urdity. Fe!pair i! an a1!traction 2or
the'.
0+ %ut what a!out angst6 Nau5rage6 Nausea6 1hat was ,as3alni3ov 5eeling i5 not
des4air6
,.G.: The!e are a1!tract concept! on (hich they ha#e 1uit a tre'endou! phio!ophica
!tructure. That;! a there i! to it. .hat I re2er to (hen I ta3 o2 !e26centered acti#ity i! an
autono'ou!, auto'atic !e26perpetuating 'echani!', entirey di22erent 2ro' (hat they are
theori?ing a1out.
0+ You 8ean that the sel5 survives 8ortality6
,.G.: No. There i! no 5ue!tion o2 a !e2 there, !o ho( can the 5ue!tion o2 i''ortaity, the
1eyond, ari!e8
0+ 1hat !eyond6 Is there a !eyond6 .
,.G.: It i! 'ortaity that create! i''ortaity. It i! the 3no(n that create! the un3no(n. It i! ti'e
that ha! created the ti'ee!!. It i! thought that created the thoughte!!
0+ 1hy6
,.G.: Becau!e thought in it! #ery nature i! !hort6i#ed. +o e#ery ti'e a thought i! 1orn, you are
1orn. But you ha#e added to that the con!tant de'and to e:perience the !a'e thing! o#er and
o#er again, thu! gi#ing a 2a!e continuity to thought. To e:perience anything you need
3no(edge. )no(edge i! the entire heritage o2 'an;! thought!, 2eeing!, and e:perience!,
handed on 2ro' generation to generation.
/u!t a! (e a 1reathe 2ro' a co''on 2und o2 air, (e appropriate and u!e thought! 2ro' the
!urrounding thought6!phere to 2unction in thi! (ord. That;! a there i! to it. 4an;! in!i!tence
that thought 'u!t 1e continuou! denie! the nature o2 thought, (hich i! !hort6i#ed. Thought ha!
created 2or it!e2 a !eparate de!tiny. It ha! 1een #ery !ucce!!2u in creating 2or it!e2 a !eparate
parae e:i!tence. By po!iting the un3no(n, the Beyond, the i''orta, it ha! created 2or it!e2 a
(ay to continue on. There i! no ti'ee!!, ony ti'e. .hen thought create! ti'e, a !pace i!
created there< !o thought i! a!o !pace a! (e. Thought a!o create! 'atter< no thought, no
'atter. Thought i! a 'ani2e!tation or e:pre!!ion o2 i2e, and to 'a3e o2 it a !eparate thing,
i'pute to it a i2e o2 it! o(n, and then ao( it to create a 2uture 2or it! o(n uno1!tructed
continuity, i! 'an;! tragedy.
0+ %ut i5 thought "an "reate 8atter2 how do you e74lain 4heno8ena li3e Sai %a!a
4rodu"ing wat"hes out o5 thin air6
,.G.: It;! 9u!t not po!!i1e. +ai Ba1a i! a 'agician. %e u!ed to produce +(i!! (atche!. But a2ter
the Indian go#ern'ent paced an i'port ta: on +(i!! (atche!, he !oon 1egan producing
Indian6'ade (atche!. I !a( a 'an on tee#i!ion the other day, (ho coud 'a3e a 9et aircra2t
di!appear 1e2ore your #ery eye!M +ai Ba1a con9ure! up a (atch. %e gi#e! it to an honored
di!cipe, 1ut he, +ai Ba1a, recei#e! a the accai' and appau!e. It a oo3! egiti'ate, 1ut i!
ony a gi''ic3. I 'a3e 2un o2 !uch thing!. %o( can you ta3e the' !eriou!y8
0+ #.@.2 then what do you ta3e seriously6 .i5e6 Death6 $7traterrestrial li5e6
,.G.: I don;t thin3 that thi! 3ind o2 i2e e:i!t! any(here e!e, on any other panet. I a' not !aying
that there 'ay not 1e i2e in other (ord!< ony that it i! not i3e our e:i!tence here. *our
ru'ination! a1out other 2or'! o2 i2e and other (ord! i! 9u!t a (i!h 2or uni'ited e:ten!ion into
the 2uture and 2ar6o22 pace!. Thought i! trying to gi#e it!e2 continuity, and !pecuation! a1out
the 2uture and undi!co#ered (ord! i! a con#enient (ay to do itM *our thin3ing deter'ine! (hat
you can 1eco'e con!ciou! o2< period.
0+ This all "o8es "lose to what ?. @rishna8urti is saying. He says that the a""u8ulated
3nowledge o5 8an !e"o8es tradition2 assu8ing a "ontinuity and legiti8a"y o5 its own.
Don<t you !elieve this6
,.G.: No. I don;t !ee ho( (hat I a' !aying i! e#en co!e to hi! ine o2 thin3ing. %e ta3! o2
7pa!!i#e a(arene!!,7 9ourney! o2 di!co#ery, p!ychoogica tran!2or'ation!, open! !choo! and
aunche! 2oundation!. The!e acti#itie! do not 2ree you, 1ut perpetuate the 'o#e'ent o2 thought
and tradition.
0+ Is there any 5reedo8 o5 thought6 ...any 5reedo8 5or 8an6
,.G.: No, there i! no 2reedo' o2 action 2or 'an. I a' not ta3ing o2 !o'e catacy!'ic,
deter'ini!tic phio!ophy o2 re!ignation. But ...
0+ There is no way out6 Not even !y "onte84lating one<s navel6 Not even !y
8editation6 Not even !y the raising o5 the kundalini6 Not even !y the "onquest o5
illusion6
,.G.: No. *ou can try a 3ind! o2 thing!, 1ut it (on;t hep. *ou (i ony !ucceed in creating
di!tur1ance! (ithin the 1ody, di!tur1ing the har'ony that i! aready there. By 1ringing a1out
!trange haucination! and unnatura 'eta1oic change! you ony har' the 1ody. That;! a there
i! to it. There i! nothing you can do to re#er!e thi!, to change direction.
0+ Not even a radi"al2 even i5 te84orary2 !rea3 5ro8 tradition6 I5 one "ould divor"e one<s
a"tions 5ro8 thought2 one 8ight !e a!le to a"t without guilt2 and without worrying a!out
the "onsequen"es o5 one<s a"tions. A"tion would !e 5reed to do new2 "reative things
4erha4s.
,.G.: .hat 2or8 To 1e a1e to di!co#er one;! !u1terranean !trength!8 Thought6induced reaity
cannot 1e denied< it i! there.
0+ So8e savants and seers have insisted that there are su!tle energy "enters within us
that "an !e released !y "ertain s4iritual 4ra"ti"es2 in"luding the "on"entration o5 the
8ind on 4re"isely nothing.
,.G.: In order to concentrate or 2ocu! on one thing you 'u!t 1oc3 out the other!. By
concentrating upon (hat you ta3e to 1e 7nothing7, you (ithdra( and !eparate your!e2 2ro' the
natura 2o( o2 i2e through and around you. *ou are part o2 a generai?ed 'agnetic 2ied and
(hat !eparate! you 2ro' other! i! thought. *ou are concerned ony (ith your happine!! and
unhappine!!, the #ideo !et you are (atching.
0+ Isn<t this unavoida!le in light o5 the 5a"t that ea"h o5 us lives in a su!9e"tive world2 no
one seeing the =o!9e"tive= world as it really is6 1hen ea"h o5 us loo3s at2 say2 that ta!le
there2 ea"h o5 us sees so8ething di55erent. So it is with all o!9e"ts.
,.G.: The ta1e i! not an o19ect at a.
The #ery 2act that you recogni?e the ta1e a! a ta1e i! the i!!ue. It doe! not 'atter, a! the
phio!opher! !ee' to thin3, that you and I ha#e !ighty di22erent #ie(! o2 the chair and !o
interpret it di22erenty. Neither doe! it 'atter (hether the chair i! there (hen I ea#e the roo'.
The phio!opher! go on and on a1out thi!. It i! a1!urd. *ou #ie( and e:perience thing! 2ro' a
di22erent #ie(point than other!, that;! a. *ou thin3 that you are ha#ing a !u19ecti#e e:perience
o2 an o19ecti#e thing. There i! nothing there, ony your reati#e, e:perientia data, your 7truth7.
There i! no !uch thing a! o19ecti#e truth at a. There i! nothing (hich e:i!t! 7out!ide7 or
independent o2 our 'ind!.
0+ $ven 5or the other 5ellow6 Is his e7isten"e de4endent only u4on 8y 8ental a"tivity6 Is
your wi5e or neigh!or 9ust an in5ra:4sy"hi" 4heno8enon6
,.G.: +ince I a!!u'e that 7I7 e:i!t, he a!o e:i!t!. But I a' 5ue!tioning thi!. Fo I ha#e any (ay
o2 e:periencing the 2act o2 'y e:i!tence8 I reay ha#e no (ay o2 2inding out (hether I a' ai#e
or dead.
I coud go to a doctor (ho (i e:a'ine 'e, ta3e 'y te'perature, 'y pu!e, 'y 1ood pre!!ure,
and he (i te 'e e#erything i! nor'a. In thi! !en!e you;re a i#ing, ani'ate 1eing in
contradi!tinction to the inani'ate o19ect! around you. But you ha#e actuay no (ay o2
e:periencing for yourself and by yourself the 2act that you are a i#ing 1eing.
0+ #5 "ourse you "an+ you "ut yoursel52 you !leed and e74erien"e 4ainA i5 you 8arry you
su55er ClaughsD...
,.G.: *e!, 1ut there are t(o thing!. There i! the 1ody (hich 2ee! the pain and the 3no(edge
teing you, 7Thi! i! 1ood,7 7Thi! i! pain,7 7Thi! i! the ce!!ation o2 pain.7 There i! pain, 1ut there
i! no one there (ho 2ee! the pain. There i! no1ody (ho i! ta3ing no(.
I a' not 'a3ing a 'y!tica !tate'ent (hen I !ay !uch a thing. Ta3ing i! a 'echanica thing,
i3e a tape recorder. *our 5ue!tion! dra( out certain re!pon!e! auto'aticay. .hate#er that i!
here co'e! out, that;! a. Becau!e you are a!3ing 5ue!tion!, the an!(er! are aready there.
0+ 1hat a!out love2 dee4 a!iding 5eelings2 and 4ro5ound res4onses to the !eauty o5
nature6
,.G.: %aM A that typica ro'antic !tu22. Dure poetryM Not that I ha#e any 1one to pic3 (ith
ro'antici!' or poetry. Not at a. It 9u!t doe!n;t 'ean anything. *ou actuay ha#e no (ay o2
oo3ing at the !un!et 1ecau!e you are not !eparate 2ro' the !un!et, 'uch e!! (riting poetry
a1out it. The e:perience you ha#e, the e:traordinary e:perience you ha#e (hen oo3ing at a
!un!et you (ant to !hare. ,!ing poetry, 'u!ic, or painting a! a 'ediu', you atte'pt to !hare
your e:perience (ith another per!on. That;! a there i! to it. The actua !un!et i! 1eyond your
e:periencing !tructure to capture. The o1!er#er i! the o1!er#ed. *ou cannot !eparate your!e2
2ro' (hat you !ee.
The 'o'ent you !eparate your!e2 2ro' the !un!et, the poet in you co'e! out. @ut o2 that
!eparation poet! and painter! ha#e tried to e:pre!! the'!e#e!, to !hare their e:perience! (ith
other!. A that i! cuture. Cuture induce! it! o(n re!pon!e!. There i! nothing 'ore to it.
0+ 1hat ha44ens to an a!original2 who is untou"hed !y "ivili;ation2 with no e74osure to
"o84le7 "ulture2 as you and I 3now it2 and res4onds to a !eauti5ul sunset. How do you
e74lain that6
,.G.: *ou !ee, it a depend! on (hat (e mean 1y cuture. That part o2 cuture that pro'i!e!
you peace, 1i!!, hea#en, moksha, and !e2e!!ne!! i! the pro1e'. To !eparate the re!t o2
cuture66ho( you entertain your!e2, ho( you eat, your (or3 ha1it!, and anguage662ro' thi!
counter6reaity created 1y cuture i! a 'i!ta3e. The !o6caed !a#age! are 2unctioning in e:acty
the !a'e (ay (e are 2unctioning today. Ba!icay, there i! no di22erence. In either the pri'iti#e
or 'odern cuture! there i! no peace.
0+ So your 8essage is that 8an "annot !e at 4ea"e with hi8sel5. Is that what you want to
say6
,.G.: No. 4an i! already at peace (ith hi'!e2. The idea that there i! peace !o'e(here e!e,
!o'eti'e in the 2uture, i! cau!ing the pro1e'. A the!e reigiou! e:perience! i3e co'pa!!ion,
1i!!, and o#e are part o2 the cra#ing 2or a none:i!tent peace, (hich i! de!tructi#e to the natura
peace aready there in the 1ody.
0+ No 4ea"e. No religion. No "o84assion. No ho4e. 1hat does that leave us with U.G.6
,.G.: Nothing. I a' 5ue!tioning the (hoe !piritua e:perience. That;! (hat I a' trying to rip
apart.
0+ 1hat a!out the !eauti5ul2 an"ient2 and ela!orate rituals that 8a3e u4 su"h a large 4art
o5 our religious e74erien"e6 Do they have any 8eaning or relevan"e to our lives6
,.G.: 4an ha! a(ay! (anted to entertain hi'!e2 (ith !o'ething or the other. The ritua! ha#e
pro#ided hi' (ith the nece!!ary entertain'ent o#er the year!, and no( they ha#e 1een
repaced 1y 'o#ie!, #ideo!, tee#i!ion, circu!e!, /. )ri!hna'urti ta3!, and the (hoe ot. There
are 'any o2 the', you !ee. "ach one i! trying to !e hi! o(n particuar 1rand o2 cigarette!, hi!
o(n particuar co''odity. .e (ant the'. There i! a 'ar3et 2or the!e !piritua co''oditie!.
That i! (hy !o'eone i! !eing the'. No1ody can !e 'e that 3ind o2 !tu22 1ecau!e I;' not
intere!ted in it. @ther! 'ay 1e.
0+ Yes2 !ut what are you interested in6 1hat 8a3es you want to "arry on living6
,.G.: .hate#er i! there. .hate#er i! happening at the 'o'ent i! a that there i! 2or 'e.
0+ Co8e on. You<re a here:and:now 4erson2 is that it6
,.G.: No. To e:pain it that (ay i! #ery 'i!eading. I don;t 3no( ho( to e:pain it.
>oo3, I read !cience62iction 1oo3!. .hy8 Becau!e there i! action there. I a' not intere!ted in
the outco'e at a, ony the ongoing action. It i! i3e a !triptea!e. It i! the !tripping I 2ind
intere!ting, not the ending. .ho care! a1out ending!8 +i'iary, a your ye!terday!, a your
3no(edge, and your #ery !en!e o2 !e2 are dead thing! o2 the pa!t. The!e 'e'orie! ha#e a
great dea o2 e'otiona content 2or you, 1ut not 2or 'e. I a' ony intere!ted in (hat i! actuay
happening no(, not to'orro( or ye!terday.
0+ 1ithout the e8otionally:"harged 8e8ories o5 yesterday and the 4ro8ise o5 to8orrow2
there is little roo8 5or ho4e2 is there6
,.G.: To 'e there i! no pre!ent either, 'uch e!! the 2uture. .hat i! there i! ony the pa!t,
nothing e!e. +o your phra!e 7the here6and6no(7 'ean! nothing to 'e. At thi! 'o'ent there i!
ony the pa!t in operation.
I don;t 3no( i2 I 'a3e 'y!e2 cear. I2 I recogni?e you and (e carry on a con#er!ation, it i! ony
the pa!t that i! in operation. I a' oo3ing at thing!. I2 I recogni?e and na'e tho!e thing!, the
pa!t i! in operation. It i! pro9ecting (hat it 3no(!. The 2uture, athough indeter'inate, i! a
'odi2ied continuity o2 the pa!t. +o (hat i! thi! 7no(7 you are ta3ing a1out8 There i! no !uch
thing a! thi! 'o'ent. Thi! 'o'ent i! not a thing that can 1e captured, e:perienced, or gi#en
e:pre!!ion to. The 'o'ent you capture (hat you thin3 o2 7thi! 'o'ent7 you ha#e aready 'ade
it part o2 the pa!t.
A thi! i'pie! that (e can ne#er touch the !a'e pace at the !a'e ti'e and pace. It i! i3e t(o
tape recording 'achine! in a roo' paying od tape! to each other. *ou ha#e no (ay o2
co''unicating anything to any1ody. There i! no co''unication at a. And (hen thi! i!
under!tood #ery ceary there i! no need 2or co''unication at a.
0+ 1hi"h 8eans that 8an<s atte84t to 4redi"t or 4ree84t the 5uture is "onde8ned 5ro8
the start2 does it not6 All this tal3 o5 "o88uni"ating in5or8ation2 sharing 3nowledge2 and
inter5a"ing is sheer !un36
,.G.: *e!, it i!. &or thi! rea!on 'an i! denied any rea 2reedo' o2 action. *ou 'ay pre2er one
3ind o2 'u!ic or 2ood o#er another, 1ut that ony re2ect! your o(n 1ac3ground and cuture.
0+ I5 what you are saying is true2 the no one has any 5reedo8 o5 a"tion2 5or everything
one does has a "ause2 and all "auses have a 5inal "ause.
,.G.: AhaM .hy do you a!!u'e that e(erything 'u!t ha#e a 1eginning, an uti'ate cau!e8
Cau!e6and6e22ect 'ay 1e 9u!t a ca!ua thing. "#ent! 'ay 9u!t occur, 9u!t happen. The (hoe
proce!! o2 e#oution 'ay 1e 9u!t another happening, a cau!ee!! e#ent. .hy 'u!t you in!i!t
that e#erything must ha#e a creator, that the (hoe thing 'u!t ha#e !prung 2ro' !o'e uti'ate
cau!e8
0+ The 8ost re"ent s"ienti5i" eviden"e suggests that it all !egan with a %ig %ang. $ven
e74losions have a 5lash 4oint. Things don<t 9ust go =!ang=...
,.G.: That i! your a!!u'ption. There 'ay not 1e any !uch thing a! the Big Bang. They u!e that
ter' in contradi!tinction to the concept o2 creation in !teady !tate. +o the!e are t(o theorie!
trying to e!ta1i!h the'!e#e! a! truth. "ach co'pete! (ith the other, trying to pre!ent it!e2 a!
the 'ore pau!i1e o2 the t(o.
0+ %ut surely this is the way new ideas are !orn and tested within a rational "o88unity.
It is a healthy thing2 not a 4athologi"al thing2 to see3 truth and 3nowledge. It is a good
thing in and o5 itsel5.
,.G.: I a' not again!t the !cienti2ic 'ethod )er se. .hat I a' pointing out i! the 2act that there
i! no !uch thing a! a 7pure7 !earch 2or 3no(edge, or 3no(edge 2or it! o(n !a3e. It i! not !o
innocent. )no(edge i! !ought, !cienti2icay or other(i!e, 1ecau!e it gi#e! po(er. >o#e i! an
in#ention o2 the 'o'ent, u!ed to repace po(er. +ince you ha#e 2aied in e#ery other (ay,
through e#ery other channe, to ac5uire that a6po(er2u !tate o2 1eing, you ha#e in#ented (hat
you ca o#e.
0+ So love is 9ust another na8e 5or the 4ower ga8e6 Is that what you want us to !elieve6
,.G.: ":acty.
0+ 1hat a!out the 3ind o5 love Mother Teresa 4ra"ti"es6 1hat a!out "o84assion6
,.G.: They are a 1orn out o2 the di#i!i#e con!ciou!ne!! in 'an. ,ti'atey they (i end up
de2eating the #ery cau!e they are (or3ing and dying 2or. The peope around 4other Tere!a are
capitai?ing on her 2a'e. A they are intere!ted in no( i! 'oney, you 3no(, to carry on her
(or3. .hy !houd a the!e thing! 1e in!titutionai?ed8G *ou !ee !o'eone in pain, hungry. *ou
re!pond to hi'. That;! a there i! to it. +o, (hy !houd that 1e in!titutionai?ed8 *ou corrupt that
2eeing, the i''ediate re!pon!e, (hich i! not 9u!t a thought or petty e'otion, (hen you atte'pt
to in!titutionai?e genero!ity and e'pathy. It i! the i''ediate re!pon!e to the !ituation that
count!.
0+ Institutionali;ation is the atte84t to ta3e a one:ti8e situation and a one:ti8e res4onse
and 8a3e out o5 the8 a "ontinuous2 4redi"ta!le res4onse. A single a"t o5 a good
Sa8aritan !e"o8es a way o5 loo3ing at and doing things generally. .oving thy neigh!or
!e"o8es a 5a"t when everyone is doing it as a 8atter o5 "ourse2 not as a result o5
isolated a"ts o5 "o84assion.
,.G.: I don;t !ee that a! co'pa!!ion. That;! the ony thing you can do in a gi#en !ituation, and
that;! the end o2 it. Ani'a! are hep2u to one another to a !urpri!ing degree. %u'an 1eing! are
naturay hep2u to each other. .hen in!titutionai?ation du! that natura !en!iti#ity, I !ay it i!
not co'pa!!ion. A e#ent! in 'y i2e are independent o2 a other e#ent!. There i! nothing there
ining the' up or in!titutionai?ing the'.
0+ Is this why you have stead5astly re5used to allow your views to !e 4ro4agated6
,.G.: &ir!t o2 a, I ha#e no #ie(! at a. *ou !ee, they (anted 'e to go on tee#i!ion in the
,nited +tate!. They ha#e a progra' caed, 7Doint o2 Cie(.7 I tod the' 7I ha#e no point o2 #ie(.7
I ha#e no particuar 'e!!age 2or 'an3ind, nor do I ha#e any o2 the 'i!!ionary ?ea in 'e.
I a' not a !a#ior o2 'an3ind, or any !uch thing. Deope co'e here. .hy they co'e i! not 'y
concern. They co'e out o2 their o(n 2ree (i and #oition 1ecau!e they ha#e heard o2 'e or out
o2 !heer curio!ity. It doe!n;t 'atter. A per!on 'ay co'e here out o2 any one o2 a nu'1er o2
rea!on!. %e 2ind! 'e !o'eho( di22erent, a rare 1ird, and cannot 2igure 'e out or 2it 'e into any
2ra'e(or3 he 3no(!. %e te! hi! 2riend!, and !oon they arri#e at the door. I can;t te the' to
get o!t.
I in#ite the' in, 3no(ing #ery (e that there i! nothing I can do 2or the'. .hat can I do 2or you8
7Co'e in, !it do(n, 'a3e your!e2 co'2orta1e,7 i! a I can !ay. +o'e peope 'a3e tape
recording! o2 our con#er!ation! together. It i! their concern, not 'ine. It i! their property 2ir!t o2
a, not 'ine.
I ha#e no intere!t in a!3ing the 5ue!tion! you are intere!ted in. I ha#e no 5ue!tion! o2 any 3ind,
e:cept tho!e (hich hep 'e to 2unction in daiy i#ing: 7.hat ti'e i! it87 7.here i! the 1u! !top87
That i! a. The!e are the !i'pe 5ue!tion! that are nece!!ary to 2unction in an organi?ed
!ociety. @ther(i!e, I ne#er a!3 any 5ue!tion!.
0+ Do you thin3 this so"iety is really organi;ed6
,.G.: Thi! i! a 9unge (e ha#e created. *ou can;t !ur#i#e in thi! (ord. "#en i2 you try to puc3 a
2ruit 2ro' a tree, the tree 1eong! to !o'eone or to !ociety. +o you ha#e to 1eco'e a part o2
!ociety. That;! (hy I a(ay! !ay that the (ord doe! not o(e a i#ing to 'e. I2 I (i!h to en9oy the
1ene2it! o2 organi?ed !ociety, I 'u!t contri1ute !o'ething to it. Thi! !ociety ha! created u! a.
+ociety i! a(ay! intere!ted in the status 4uo, in 'aintaining it! o(n continuity.
0+ So"iety has not "reated 8e. A si84le a"t o5 lust "reated 8e.
,.G.: That i! true. But u!t i! 1orn out o2 the thought o2 that indi#idua (ho i! part and parce o2
!ociety. The actua genetic in2or'ation, pro1a1y re!iding in each ce o2 the 1ody, i! a!o
pa!!ed on, and con!titute! the 1a!i! o2 con!ciou!ne!!. .hat !ociety i! intere!ted in i! that (e
a contri1ute to the continuity o2 !ociety, that (e a perpetuate the status 4uo. +ociety (i o2
cour!e per'it !o'e !ight 'odi2ication!, 1ut no 'ore.
+o, (hat doe! a 'an i3e 'e contri1ute to !ociety. Nothing. +o ho( can I e:pect anything 2ro'
!ociety8 +ociety doe! not o(e a i#ing to 'e at a. @n the other hand, (hat I a' !aying i! a
threat to !ociety a! it i! pre!enty organi?ed. The (ay I a' thin3ing, 2unctioning, and operating i!
a threat to the pre!ent !ociety. I2 I 1eco'e a threat, thi! !ociety (i i5uidate 'e. I a' not
intere!ted in 1eco'ing a 'artyr or anything. That doe!n;t intere!t 'e at a. +o, i2 they !ay,
7Fon;t ta3,7 2ine, I don;t ha(e to ta3.
0+ So you don<t have 5aith in 8an2 li3e ?. @rishna8urti does6
,.G.: No, no. Not at a, not at a.
I2 they e:pect 'e to 1e a 'artyr !o a! to re#itai?e their 2aith in the'!e#e!, they (i 1e !ady
di!appointed. It i! their pro1e', not 'ine. I2 they 2ind 'e a 'enace to !ociety, (hat can they
do8 They 'ay torture 'e, a! they do in the co''uni!t countrie!. +o (hat8 .oud I continue to
!pea3 again!t the !tate then8 I reay don;t 3no( (hat I (oud do. I do not induge in
hypothetica !ituation!.
0+ 1ould you have any 4oliti"al views6 Do you have any 4oliti"al views a!out this
so"iety here6 Do you !elieve in a s4e"i5i" 5or8 o5 govern8ent2 ta3ing sides on 4oliti"al
issues6
,.G.: I ha#e #ie(! on e#ery da'ned thing 2ro' di!ea!e to di#inity 1ecau!e I ha#e ac5uired a
thi! 3no(edge through !tudie!, tra#e, e:perience, and the i3e. But 'y #ie(! are o2 no 'ore
i'portance than tho!e o2 the 'aid ceaning and coo3ing there. .%* !houd any i'portance 1e
gi#en to 'y #ie(! and opinion!8
*ou 'ay !ay that I a' a (e6read 'an, and that, a! a re!ut o2 'y reading, 'y tra#e!, and 'y
con#er!ation! (ith inteectua!, !cienti!t!, and phio!opher!, I ha#e a right to e:pre!! 'y #ie(!
on e#erything. But nothing I !ay or 1eie#e i! i'portant. Fo you under!tand that8 A I a' trying
to point out i! that a thi! 3no(edge you are !o proud o2 2aunting i!n;t (orth a tin3er;! da'n.
0+ 1hy has 3nowledge ta3en on su"h i84ortan"e to us6
,.G.: Becau!e it gi#e! you po(er. A! I !aid at the #ery 1eginning, 3no(edge i! po(er. * know,
you don5t know& * ha(e reigiou! e:perience and you don5t ha(e it. +o it;! a one6up'an!hip,
!ho(ing o22.
0+ Does your 4ast with the Theoso4hi"al So"iety "ontri!ute in any way to the su8 total
o5 your understanding o5 li5e6 You 3now2 all this astral !usiness2 %lavats3y<s ho"us:
4o"us2 .ead!eater<s !uggery2 the usual 8u8!o:9u8!o o5 the Theoso4hi"al "ir"us ...
,.G.: .hate#er happened to 'e happened not 1ecau!e o2, 1ut in s)ite of that. And that;! a
'irace. I reay don;t 3no(. I a' not a 'an o2 hu'iity or any !uch thing. >oo3ing 1ac3 on the
!ituation, I reay ha#e no (ay o2 teing you (hat it (a! a a1out. A I 3no( i! that I a' 2ree
2ro' 'y pa!t, and than3 hea#en 2or that.
0+ Tell us2 what do you thin3 o5 Ethe sage who wal3s alone<2 ?. @rishna8urti2 the 8an you
had the E5alling out< with.
,.G.: I thin3 he i! a tre'endou! hoa:. That;! (hat I ha#e again!t /. )ri!hna'urti. %e ha! ne#er
co'e out cean. I2 you a!3 hi' (hy not Pco'e out ceanQ, hi! argu'ent (oud 1e that anything
he !ay! (i 1eco'e an authority 2or or again!t hi'. But that;! a poitica po!ition he ha! ta3en.
In 2act, he ha! aready 1eco'e an authority 2igure 2or hundred! and thou!and! o2 peope.
0+ And that<s so8ething you don<t want to !e"o8e ...6
,.G.: No. I don;t (ant to 1e that. Ne#er. To 'e, the (hoe thing !tin3!.
0+ %ut the "han"e to in5luen"e 8en2 to "hange history ...
,.G.: No, ne#er. That;! (hat I a' !aying ...
0+ Is it that you re9e"t using your 4ower now that you have it2 or is it that you re9e"t the
idea2 the very 4rin"i4le o5 4ower over others ...6
,.G.: It i! the under!tanding< it i! the 3no(edge (hich ha! da(ned upon 'e. I cannot
co''unicate it, 'uch e!! reco''end it to other!.
0+ Naturally. %ut i5 one wants to o4erate outside the whole "orru4t 5ield o5 4ower ga8es2
8ustn<t one !e truly hu8!le ...6
,.G.: No. %u'iity i! an art that one practice!. There i! no !uch thing a! hu'iity. A! ong a! you
know, there i! no hu'iity there. The 3no(n and hu'iity cannot coe:i!t.
In !aying thi! I a' not gi#ing you a ne( de2inition o2 hu'iity. I 1eie#e there i! no !uch thing a!
hu'iity at a. I;' 9u!t not in con2ict (ith !ociety. +o, to create the oppo!ite o2 the 1rutaity in the
(ord66hu'iity66doe! not occur to 'e. +ociety cannot 1e anything other than (hat it i!. +o,
!ince there i! no de'and to 1ring a1out a change in 'e, there i! no corre!ponding de'and to
change !ociety. I a' not a re2or'er. I a' not a re#outionary either. In 2act, there i! no !uch
thing a! re#oution. A that i! 1ogu!. It i! another co''odity to 1e !od in the 'ar3etpace, to
hood(in3 gui1e peope.
0+ In other words2 there is no di55eren"e !etween the world o5 Gandhi and the world o5 Ho
Chi Minh2 or !etween the values Christ 4ro4agated and those .enin 5ought 5or6
,.G.: That;! right. No di22erence at a.
0+ Tell 8e so8ething. ?. @rishna8urti told 8e during a "onversation that his entire
worldview survives !e"ause he loo3s at li5e 5ro8 a deta"hed view4oint. He is not the 5irst
one to say this. Many great 8en o5 religion and art have said the sa8e thing. Do you
agree that he sees 8ost "learly who stands a4art6
,.G.: Fid )ri!hna'urti !ay thi!, or did hi! 2oo(er! !ay thi!8
0+ He "lai8s to have no 5ollowers.
,.G.: &ir!t o2 a, I ha#e no (ord#ie(, no !tructure o2 thought that can hep you.
0+ %ut you have 4erha4s "reated a stru"ture o5 thought whi"h hel4s you.
,.G.: Nothing hep! 'e. Thi! certainty I ha#e i! !o'ething that cannot 1e tran!'itted to anyone
e!e. And yet thi! certainty ha! no #aue at a.
0+ How did you arrive at this "ertainty6
,.G.: I !tu'1ed upon it. *ou !ee, 'y grounding (a! in 4adra!, in the !a'e 3ind o2
en#iron'ent that produced /. )ri!hna'urti. I (a! !urrounded 1y reigiou! peope, a 3ind! o2
!trange peope. I reai?ed eary on that they (ere a 2a3e! (ho!e i#e! and preaching! (ere
'ie! apart. +o it Pthe en#iron'entQ (a!n;t (orth anything, a! 2ar a! I (a! concerned. I 3no( a
a1out the!e !a#ior!, !aint!, and !age!. They ha#e a cheated the'!e#e! and 2ooed
e#ery1ody. But you 'ay 1e !ure that I a' not going to 1e 2ooed 1y any1ody. I a' in a po!ition
to !ay they are A>> (rong.
The 7change;, i2 that i! the (ord you (ant to u!e, that occurred to 'e i! a purey phy!ioogica
e#ent, (ith no 'y!tica or !piritua o#ertone! at a. Any1ody (ho gi#e! a reigiou! !ant to any
phy!ica happening i3e thi! i! 3idding hi'!e2 and i! 3idding the (hoe o2 'an3ind. The 'ore
ce#er and cunning you are, the 'ore !ucce!!2u you (i 1e in per!uading peope. +o you
ac5uire po(er 2ro' peope, then pro9ect it upon other!. *ou get tre'endou! po(er 2ro' your
2oo(er!, then pro9ect it 1ac3 on the'. +o it gi#e! you the iu!ion that it i! a22ecting e#eryone
around you. *ou then co'e out (ith !o'e ridicuou! !tate'ent that thi! ha! a22ected the (hoe
o2 hu'an con!ciou!ne!!. Actuay, it ha! no p!ychoogica or !ocia content at a.
It i! not that I a' anti!ocia. A! I ha#e !aid, I a' not in con2ict (ith !ociety at a. I a' not going
to de!troy a the te'pe! or churche!, or 1urn any 1oo3!. No !uch thing. 4an cannot 1e
anything other than (hat he i!. .hate#er he i!, he (i create a !ociety that 'irror! hi'.
0+ Yes2 !ut how did you stu8!le u4on su"h wisdo86
,.G.: AhaM That;! the 5ue!tionM
0+ You o!viously don<t get it !y sitting under a tree in the 8oonlight ...
,.G.: No, there i! nothing to get ...
0+ I re5er not to so8e ro8anti" a"hieve8ent2 !ut to that "ertainty you 4ossess. You have
a "ertainty2 that<s all. I 5eel that I and others don<t have it. Neither do I 3now how to get it.
,.G.: *ou 'u!t 2ind your 1a!ic 5ue!tion. 4y 1a!ic 5ue!tion (a!: 7I! there anything 1ehind the
a1!traction! the hoy 'en are thro(ing at 'e8 I! there reay anything i3e enighten'ent or !e26
reai?ation87 I didn;t (ant the 5ue!tion. I 9u!t had it. +o naturay I had to e:peri'ent. I tried !o
'any thing!, thi!, that, and the other 2or a (hie. Then you 2ind out one day that there i! nothing
to 2ind out at aM *ou re9ect the' co'petey and totay. Thi! re9ection i! not a 'o#e'ent o2
thought at a, not a !uper2icia denia. It i! not done to attain or achie#e !o'ething.
0+ ... li3e the need to get so8ething s4iritual ...6
,.G.: There i! nothing to get. There i! nothing to 2ind or to 2ind out. The under!tanding that there
i! nothing to under!tand i! a there i!. "#en that i! an in2erentia !tate'ent. In other (ord!,
there i! nothing to under!tand.
0+ The 5a"t that there is nothing to understand is a "ertainty 5or you2 !ut not 8e.
,.G.: &ir!t o2 a, you !ee, you don;t ha#e the hunger, the thir!t to 2ind out the an!(er to that. +o
you can;t do a thing a1out it. Anything you do perpetuate! that, 3eep! your hunger at 1ay. .hat
!ee'! to ha#e happened to 'e i! not that 'y hunger ha! 1een !ati!2ied either (ith 1read
cru'1! or a (hoe oa2 o2 1read, 1ut that the hunger 2ound no !ati!2actory an!(er and 1urned
it!e2 out. A the!e thir!t65uencher! ha#en;t heped to 5uench 'y thir!t. But !o'eho( in 'y
ca!e the thir!t 1urned it!e2 out. I a' a 1urnt6out ca!e661ut not in the !en!e in (hich you u!e
that ter'. It;! an entirey di22erent 3ind o2 1eing 1urnt out.
.hat i! there no( i! !o'ething i#ing. There i! no need 2or co''unication, No co''unication
i! po!!i1e on that e#e. The de'and to 3no(, to 1e certain, i! not there at a.
0+ I don<t understand ...
,.G.: It;! 9u!t i3e the tree out there. .hat do you (ant to do (ith the tree!8 They are not e#en
!e26con!ciou! that they are u!e2u to other 2or'! o2 i2e, pro#iding !hade.... >i3e the tree, I a'
ne#er con!ciou! that I can 1e o2 !er#ice to anyone.
0+ Don<t you have any si84le honora!le senti8ents li3e a55e"tion 5or another2 love2 or
even lust6 Haven<t you ever seen a !eauti5ul wo8an and wanted to 8a3e love to her6
,.G.: The 'o#e'ent o2 de!ire i! !o 2a!t that it doe!n;t !top there. There i! !o'ething66I (oudn;t
!ay it;! 'ore intere!ting or 'ore attracti#e661ut it change! that 'o#e'ent and de'and! your
co'pete attention. "#erything happening at that 'o'ent de'and! your co'pete and tota
attention. In that !tate there are no onger t(o thing!66o#er and 1eo#ed, pur!uer and pur!ued.
.hat you ca 7a 1eauti2u (o'an766(hich i! an idea66gi#e! (ay to !o'ething e!e. And there
co'e! a ti'e (hen you can;t o#e her in the od (ay any 'ore.
0+ You 8ean when you see a !eauti5ul wo8an you are totally involved without having to
get involved6
,.G.: The thought that !he;! a (o'an i!n;t there. Then you !ee (hat a 1eauti2u (o'an can
gi#e you. 7.hat can I get 2ro' thi! (o'an7, i! not there. "#erything i! con!tanty 'o#ing. There
i! no reigiou! content to thi! at a.
0+ >orget a!out religion. 1e are tal3ing a!out !eauti5ul wo8en. They a55e"t you in a
di55erent way2 you say. You don<t e7hi!it the o!session with se7 whi"h so 8any o5 us do
when in the "o84any o5 !eauti5ul wo8en. Yet you are a55e"ted. I a8 o!sessed with
!eauti5ul wo8en and se72 and want to redu"e the i84a"t they have on 8e. How "an I get
so8e o!9e"tivity on the 8atter2 as you see8 to have6
,.G.: It;! too 'uch o2 a ha!!e to 1other a1out that. Dea!e re'e'1er that....
0+ Don<t you thin3 that an individual who has seen the light should lighten the way 5or
others6 Don<t you 5eel so8e sense o5 res4onsi!ility 5or your 5ellow !eings6 Isn<t it
in"u8!ent u4on you to share with the world the truth you have =stu8!led u4on=6
,.G.: No. I ha#e no (ay o2 tran!'itting it and you ha#e no (ay o2 3no(ing it.
0+ Yes2 !ut don<t you want to ins4ire the world around you6
,.G.: In!piration i! a 'eaninge!! thing. +o 'any thing! and peope in!pire u!, 1ut the action!
1orn out o2 in!piration are 'eaninge!!. >o!t, de!perate peope create a 'ar3et 2or in!piration.
+o, I a' not intere!ted in in!piring any1ody. A in!pired action (i e#entuay de!troy you and
your 3ind. That;! a 2actM
0+ Is there any way o5 4reventing that6 Is not li5e the only "ure:all6
,.G.: .hat do you (ant to pre#ent8 In you o#e and hate are 1orn. I don;t i3e to put it that (ay
1ecau!e o#e and hate are not oppo!ite end! o2 the !a'e !pectru'< they are one and the !a'e
thing. They are 'uch co!er than 3i!!ing cou!in!.
I2 you don;t get (hat you e:pect out o2 the !o6caed o#e, (hat i! there i! hate. *ou 'ay not i3e
'e to u!e the (ord 7hate7, 1ut it i! apathy and indi22erence to other!. I 1eie#e o#e and hate are
the !a'e thing. I te thi! to peope (here#er I go, a o#er the (ord.
0+ $very year you s4end 5our 8onths in A8eri"a2 5our 8onths in India2 and 5our 8onths
in Swit;erland. That is dangerously "lose to the usual travel 4lans o5 ?. @rishna8urti2
isn<t it6 He "overs an al8ost identi"al route year a5ter year.
,.G.: I don;t 3no( (hy he i! doing that. It i! the (eather that i! re!pon!i1e 2or 'y 'o#e'ent!.
.hen it i! hot in India, I go to +(it?erand. .hen it get! too cod in +(it?erand, I 'o#e to
Cai2ornia, then 1ac3 to India again. Thi! (hoe /. )ri!hna'urti thing no onger intere!t! 'e.
0+ erha4s. %ut you 8ust have o!served the entire thing very "are5ully !e"ause you
were a 4art o5 it 5or a long while. $veryone 3nows o5 your 4ast interest in ?. @rishna8urti2
and the 5a"t that you eventually !ro3e with hi8.
,.G.: In the eary day! he didn;t ha#e a huge organi?ation i3e he ha! today. It (a! a !'a
!i'pe organi?ation pu1i!hing a 2e( 1oo3!, that (a! a. %e did a itte tra#eing and pu1ic
ta3ing, organi?ed in2or'ay 1y !o'e 2riend!. That (a! it. But no( it i! a i'ited concern, a
gro(th indu!try i3e any other 1u!ine!!. Thi! 3ind o2 organi?ation he ha! no(, (ith (ord(ide
rea e!tate hoding!, 1oard! o2 tru!tee!, #aut! o2 in!ured tape recording!, 'iion! o2 doar!, a
run! counter to hi! 1a!ic teaching, (hich i! that you can;t organi?e truth. %e !houdn;t 1e
1uiding an e'pire in the na'e o2 !pirituaity.
0+ Have you ever 8et any o5 the =God:8en= o5 India6 You 3now2 the 5a8ous ones
8a3ing a 5ast !u"3 in the holy !usiness.
,.G.: No, I;#e ne#er 1een a !hopper. I;#e encountered a 2e( o2 the' 2or a 2e( 'inute! in 'y
tra#e!, that;! a.
.hat I a' (a! 1orn out o2 'y o(n !trugge. I earned e#erything a1out 'y!e2 by 'y!e2. Both
the !ecuar and the !piritua !choo! o2 thought irritate 'e. The guru! and God6'en are,
there2ore, o2 no intere!t to 'e at a. .e ha#e e:ported the' to the ,nited +tate! and "urope.
They ha#e their o(n too ...
0+ Yes. The ,everend Moon2 ?i8 ?ones2 s"oundrels galore ...
,.G.: And no( there i! another /one!: Fa /one!, 7the one (ho gi#e!7 in +an!3rit. Any hoy
!ca' i! (eco'e there, (hether 2ro' Indone!ia, /apan, India, or 2ro' Nepa. I2 they get popuar
enough in the .e!t, 'a3e enough o2 a !pa!h, (e 1ring the' 1ac3 to India. It i! !i'iar to ho(
Indian (o'en 1ring 1ac3 saris 2ro' the .e!t to (ear here. They pay three ti'e! the price
thereM
0+ Have you ever 8et Maharshi Yogi in Swit;erland6
,.G.: No, ne#er. I don;t go out o2 'y roo', !o I can;t !ay. I;' not in touch (ith (hat;! going on
here in India. I don;t care 2or the ne(!paper! here, !o I don;t read the'. Indian current e#ent!
don;t intere!t 'e, you !ee, 1ecau!e (hate#er happen! here ha! no rea e22ect on the (ord.
India i! not in a po!ition to a22ect the (ord. Athough there i! no !ure (ay to di#ide up opinion!
into !piritua, poitica, or other(i!e. *ou 'ay ca thi! a poitica opinion.
%o( can India gi#e direction to or in2uence the (ord8 India ha! neither the po(er nor the 'ora
!tatu!. The !pirituaity you cai' doe! not actuay (or3 in the i2e o2 the country. *ou ha#e to
!ho( the (ord that the onene!! o2 i2e you ha#e preached 2or centurie! operate! in the daiy i2e
o2 thi! country, a! (e a! in the i#e! o2 indi#idua!. That i! di22icut.
No one i! intere!ted in (hat India !ay! or doe!. It doe!n;t ha#e the nece!!ary !tature to a22ect
(ord e#ent!. The ony thing a1out India that intere!t! the re!t o2 the (ord i! the 5ue!tion,
7.hat (i happen to her 'iion! and 'iion! o2 peope8 In (hich direction, to(ard! (hat ca'p,
i! !he going to 'o#e87 Nothing e!e.
0+ Does a religion li3e Mar7is8 hel46 It has a s4iritual "ontent2 a5ter its own 5ashion. It
see8s to loo3 at a !roader2 less ar"hai" 5ra8e o5 re5eren"e.
,.G.: 4ar:i!' a! a reigion ha! 2aied. "#en 4aoi!' i! dead. "#en the 4ar:i!t countrie! are
oo3ing 2or a ne( God no(. They ha#e o!t 2aith in 'an and are once again oo3ing 2or a ne(
God, ne( Church, ne( Bi1e, and a ne( prie!t. The !earch i! on 2or a di22erent 3ind o2 2reedo'.
0+ %ut Hinduis8 allows a great deal o5 5reedo8. It was never a "onservative religion2 li3e
Christianity2 Isla82 or Mar7is8.
,.G.: The ony di22erence 1et(een the "a!t and the .e!t i! the di22erence in our reigion!.
Chri!tianity ha! not produced !uch (eird character! a! (e ha#e in thi! country. %ere reigion i!
an indi#idua a22air. "ach one ha! !et up hi! o(n !hop and i! !eing hi! particuar (are!. That;!
(hy (e ha#e the #ariety here, (hich i! ac3ing in the .e!t. Thi! #ariety i! the 'o!t attracti#e
part o2 our !o6caed heritage.
%indui!' i! not a reigion. It i! a co'1ination and con2u!ion o2 'any thing!. The actua (ord
7%indu7 co'e! 2ro' a o!t non6+an!3rit (ord no onger in u!e. *ou (oudn;t 3no( anything
a1out it. The in#ading Aryan! (ho !et up the Brah'anic !ocia !tructure 2ound the nati#e
Indian! to ha#e a dar3 co'pe:ion and caed their reigion the reigion o2 the 1ac3!66the
7%indu!7. The !choar! and pundit! 'ay not i3e 'y interpretation, 1ut it i! correct and hi!torica.
Again, I repeat, %indui!' i! not a reigion in the u!ua !en!e< it i! i3e a !treet (ith hundred! o2
!hop!.
0+ You 8ean ,a9neesh<s se7 sho4 ne7t to ?. @rishna8urti<s awareness sho42 whi"h is
ne7t to Maharshi<s 8editation sho42 whi"h is ne7t door to Sai %a!a<s 8agi" sho42 whi"h
is ne7t to....
,.G.: Ba!icay they are a the !a'e, e:acty the !a'e. "ach cai'! that hi! (are! are the 1e!t
to 1e 2ound in the 'ar3et. +o'e product!, i3e Dear! +oap, ha#e 1een in the 'ar3et !o ong
that peope ha#e co'e to 3no(, depend upon the', and con!ider the' !uperior to other!. The
dura1iity o2 a particuar product doe!n;t 'ean #ery 'uch.
0+ 1hat is your o4inion o5 the Indian entertain8ent !usiness6 They say 8ost o5 your
5ollowing "o8es 5ro8 this industry.
,.G.: "#erything in thi! country i! entertain'ent. The poitician! thri#e on the gui1iity o2 'en.
=eigion! thri#e on the creduity o2 other!. .e, (e are da'n 2oo!, you !ee. That;! a there i!
to it.
0+ 1ith su"h an o4inion o5 8an3ind2 you 8ust not have any high ho4es 5or the 5uture o5
the ra"e ...
,.G.: I don;t thin3 anything 1etter (i happen to man, or for man&
0+ %ut surely the in"redi!le 4rogress o5 te"hnology2 es4e"ially in the 1est2 in the last
hundred years2 !odes well 5or 8an.
,.G.: That i! true. But that i! 1ecau!e o2 the indu!tria re#oution. Nation! i3e =u!!ia, A'erica,
and other .e!tern nation! ha#e ta3en ad#antage o2 the indu!tria re#oution to pu!h technoogy
ahead.
0+ Man see8s to have 8ade 8ore 4rogress in the last one hundred years than he did in
the 4revious 5our !illions years.
,.G.: That;! e:acty (hat I a' !aying. It i! 1ecau!e o2 the indu!tria re#oution that 2ar6reaching
change! are !(eeping the (ord. %o( e22ecti#e the!e change! (i 1e i! any1ody;! gue!!. The
regi'e o2 !cience and technoogy i! aready !ipping ...
0+ 1here do you thin3 all this will ta3e us6
,.G.: .hy !houd it ta3e u! any(here8 .hy8 .hat 2or8 7Drogre!!7 'ean! 7to ad#ance into
ene'y territory7. *ou are hope2u that un1rided progre!! (i 1ring a !oution to our pro1e'!. I2
it (a! that cear6cut, (e 'ight a! (e progra' the co'puter! and !ee (hat they ha#e to !ay
regarding our 2uture and our de!tinie!.
0+ %ut i5 we are nothing 8ore than the su8 total o5 our 4ast2 the 4redi"tion !e"o8es
easy and a""urate ...
,.G.: Thi! (i gi#e u! no guarantee a! to (here the 2uture (i ead.
0+ No2 we have "ontrol over our 5utures.
,.G.: +o'ething une:pected and unpredicta1e happen! and the (hoe cour!e i! !uddeny
changed. .e ta3e it 2or granted that (e can channe i2e in the direction (e (ant, 1ut there i! no
guarantee (e (i !ucceed. "#ent! are reay independent o2 one another. .e create and put
the' together. .e ha#e created the phio!ophica !tructure o2 thought, 1ut that doe! not 'ean
that there i! a pattern or purpo!e 2or e#erything. Nor doe! it 'ean that e#erything i!
predeter'ined.
0+ %ut what a!out ho4e6 Surely 8an lives !y ho4e.
,.G.: 4an ha! a(ay! i#ed in hope and (i pro1a1y die in hope. In the ight o2 the tre'endou!
de!tructi#e po(er he no( ha! at hi! co''and, he (i pro1a1y ta3e e#ery other 2or' o2 i2e (ith
hi' (hen he goe!. Thi! i! not 'y doo'!day !ong, 1ut (hen you oo3 reai!ticay at our
!ituation thi! !ee'! to 1e the ot o2 u! a, i3e it or not. *ou are 'i!ta3en i2 you thin3 or hope
that (e can put the (hoe 'o'entu' o2 hu'an hi!tory on a di22erent trac3. .e need to 1e
!a#ed 2ro' tho!e !a#ior! (ho pro'i!e the 'ienniu' 9u!t around the corner.
0+ How "an you hel4 it6
,.G.: The 7ho(7 create! another !a#ior.
0+ Yes2 !ut is there any other way o5 "hanging "ourse than the s4iritual6
,.G.: &ir!t o2 a, you !ee, to di#ide i2e into the 'ateria and the !piritua ha! a1!outey no
'eaning to 'e. A thi! hog(a!h a1out !piritua i2e i! 1orn out o2 the a!!u'ption that there i! a
!pirit (hich ha! an independent e:i!tence o2 it! o(n. The a!!u'ption 'a3e! no !en!e.
0+ 1hat a!out the notion that the !ody is destroyed2 !ut the s4irit lives on ...6
,.G.: It;! 9u!t a 1eie2. It doe!n;t 'ean anything at a. I ha#e no (ay o2 tran!'itting thi! certainty
to you. There i! nothing that (i ri!e or reincarnate it!e2 a2ter I die. &or you to !pecuate on the
1eyond ha! no 'eaning.
0+ The !ody itsel5 see8s to see3 a 3ind o5 i88ortality through 4ro"reation.
,.G.: That i! the nature o2 i2e. The de'and 2or !ur#i#a and the need to reproduce one!e2 i!
inherent in the nature o2 i2e. *our !e:uaity, your progeny, your 2a'iy !tructure, and !o 'uch
'ore i! an e:ten!ion o2 thi! 1a!ic natura dri#e to !ur#i#e and procreate.
0+ So when you die you are 5inished ...6
,.G.: I2, (hen thi! 1ody i! 1uried, the 'e'orie! peope ha#e o2 'e are 1uried aong (ith it, that
(i 1e the end o2 'e.
0+ So8e o5 your 5ollowers want to s"atter your ashes...
,.G.: .hat 2or8 Cery o2ten peope a!3 'e, 7Are you not going to ea#e any in!truction! on ho(
(e !houd di!po!e o2 your dead 1ody87 .hat the heM .ho (ant! to ea#e any in!truction8 It
(i 1egin to !'e and 1eco'e a nui!ance to !ociety ... It;! not 'y pro1e', 1ut !ociety;!. I a'
aready in he. There i! no need 2or 'e to die to reach there.
0+ You have a 5a8ily so8ewhere2 don<t you6
,.G.: 4y daughter!, t(o o2 the', are in %ydera1ad. @ne o2 'y !on!, Ca!ant, died recenty o2
cancer. The other 2eo(, )u'ar, i! younger and (a! 1orn in A'erica. %e i! an eectronic!
engineer there no(. I !ee hi' occa!ionay (hen I #i!it the ,.+.A. I don;t ha#e 'uch contact
(ith 'y 2a'iy. They co'e and #i!it 'e !o'eti'e!. That;! a. I ha#e no e'otiona in3! (ith
the', or (ith any1ody 2or that 'atter. Not e#en (ith Caentine, the od +(i!! ady I ha#e 1een
(ith 2or the a!t t(enty year!. I don;t thin3 I ha#e any e'otiona in3! (ith any1ody.
0+ Have you ever had any e8otional lin3s with any!ody6
,.G.: I don;t 3no(. I pro1a1y did not, e#en (ith 'y (i2e (ith (ho' I i#ed 2or t(enty year!. I
reay don;t 3no( (hat 3ind o2 in3! one !houd ha#e.
0+ You<ve never had any overwhel8ing 5eelings towards another 4erson2 8an or
wo8an6
,.G.: .hat o1!e!!ed 'e 'o!t (a! to 2ind out the an!(er to 'y 5ue!tion. It (a! the one
o#erriding thing 2or 'e. .hat (a! behind the a1!traction! the!e peope, incuding /.
)ri!hna'urti, (ere thro(ing at 'e8 I2 there i! nothing there, ho( coud they ha#e created a
thi! 'i!chie2 in the (ord8 I under!tood that you coud 3id your!e2 and other!< 1ut I (anted an
an!(er. I ne#er got an an!(er. The 5ue!tion 9u!t 1urnt it!e2 out.
That doe! not 'ean that I a' enightened, or that I 3no( the Truth. Tho!e (ho ha#e cai'ed
!uch thing! ha#e 2ooed the'!e#e! and other!. A o2 the' are (rong. Not that I a' !uperior to
the' or any !uch thin< it i! 9u!t that they are 'a3ing cai'! that ha#e no rea 1a!i! at a. That
(a! and i! 'y certainty. There i! no po(er in the (ord that can 'a3e 'e accept anything. +o I
a' not in con2ict (ith the po(er !tructure. I a' not intere!ted in ta3ing anything a(ay 2ro'
any1ody.
0+ 1e sense a 3ind o5 re8oteness or disinterestedness in you. Haven<t you ever !een
"arried away !y anything2 say2 a !eauti5ul wo8an2 a !eauti5ul sunset2 or a !eauti5ul 4ie"e
o5 8usi"6 Has nothing ever totally swa84ed you and 8ade you want to go away 5ro8
everything2 I don<t 3now where to...6
,.G. .hate#er e!e I 'ay or 'ay not ha#e 1een, I;#e ne#er 1een a ro'antic in that !en!e. A
that i! ro'antici!' 2or 'e. =o'antici!' i! not 'y reaity. Nothing ha! e#er, or (i e#er, !(eep
'e o22 'y 2eet. It i! not that I a' the oppo!ite o2 that, a 'an o2 rea!on. It i! the ee'ent o2
rea!on in 'e that re#oted again!t it!e2. I a' not anti6rationa or arationa, 9u!t unrationa. *ou
'ay in2er a rationa 'eaning in (hat I !ay or do, 1ut it i! your doing, not 'ine. I a' not
intere!ted in anyone;! !earch 2or happine!!, ro'ance, or e!cape ...
0+ It "ould !e 8ore than 8ere ro8anti"is8. It "ould !e a sel5:a!andon8ent2 a "ra;y2
5ren;ied2 or a terri5ying2 8agni5i"ent2 s4iritual or se7ual e74erien"e.
,.G.: There i! no e:perience here. +o, ho( can there 1e the!e dra'atic, cra?y e:perience!8 I
ha#e no (ay o2 !eparating 'y!e2 2ro' e#ent!< the e#ent and I are one and the !a'e. I;' !ure
you don;t (ant 'e to !ay any crude thing! a! 2ar a! !e: i! concerned. It;! 9u!t a reea!e o2
ten!ion. I don;t ro'antici?e at a a1out thi! 3ind o2 !tu22. A! I once tod 'y (i2e, 7Fon;t ta3 o2
o#e and inti'acy to 'e< (hat 3eep! u! together i! !e:. The pro1e' i! that I 2or !o'e rea!on
cannot ha#e !e: (ith another (o'an. That i! 'y pro1e'. I ha#e no (ay o2 2reeing 'y!e2 2ro'
thi! pro1e'.7 I don;t 3no( i2 a thi! 'a3e! any !en!e to you. A thi! ta3 o2 o#e ne#er 'eant
anything to 'e. That;! the end o2 thi! o1!e!!ion (ith !e:.
0+ %ut at one stage you did 8a3e love with another wo8an ...
,.G.: *e!, 1ut that (a! a !ituation not o2 'y o(n 'a3ing. I (on;t !ay I (a! !educed. It doe!n;t
'atter (hether one !educe! another or i! hi'!e2 !educed. The 2act i! you did it. It (a! not that
per!on (ho (a! re!pon!i1e. I 'y!e2 (a! re!pon!i1e. It (a! a pecuiar 3ind o2 auto6erotici!'
that (a! in#o#ed in thi! ca!e.
0+ How "an you say that6
,.G.: I (a! using that per!on. It i! a terri1e thing to u!e !o'e1ody to get pea!ure. .hether
you u!e an idea, a concept, a drug, or a per!on, or anything e!e, you cannot ha#e pea!ure
(ithout using !o'ething. Thi! re#oted 'e. .hat are you aughing a1out8 Thi! i! 'y i2e, ta3e it
or ea#e it.
I a' not intere!ted in u!ing, in2uencing, or changing any1ody. Thi! i! a !tate'ent on (hat I a',
ho( I i#ed, nothing 'ore. Thi! (i not 1e o2 any tre'endou! #aue 2or 'an3ind and !houd not
1e pre!er#ed 2or po!terity. I don;t 1eie#e in po!terity. * ha(e no teaching. There i! nothing to
pre!er#e. Teaching i'pie! !o'ething that can 1e u!ed to 1ring a1out change. +orry... There i!
no teaching here, 9u!t di!9ointed, di!connected !entence!. .hat i! there i! ony your
interpretation o2 either the (ritten or !po3en (ord, nothing e!e. The an!(er! you get are your!.
They are your property, not 'ine. &or thi! rea!on there i! not no(, nor (i there e#er 1e, any
3ind o2 copyright 2or (hate#er I a' !aying. I ha#e no cai'!.
0+ Tell 8e2 U.G.2 what was your "hildhood li3e6
,.G.: 4y 'other died (hen I (a! !e#en day! od. 4y 'aterna grandparent! too3 care o2 'e.
4y grand2ather (a! a Theo!ophi!t. %e (a! a (eathy 'an and in!tied a !trong reigiou!
at'o!phere around the hou!e. +o, in that !en!e, /. )ri!hna'urti (a! a!o part o2 'y
1ac3ground. They had hi! picture on e#ery (a< I coud not a#oid hi'. I did not go to hi' in
!earch o2 anything. %e (a! 9u!t part o2 'y 1ac3ground. It (oud ha#e 1een re'ar3a1e had I
ne#er gone to !ee hi'. 4y pro1e' (a! to 2ree 'y!e2 2ro' the (hoe 1ac3ground that (a!
!tranging 'e. That;! a.
0+ 1here did you grow u46
,.G.: 4o!ty in 4adra!, in the Theo!ophica +ociety. I (ent to the ,ni#er!ity o2 4adra!. I i#ed
'o!t o2 'y 2or'ati#e year! (ith and a'ong!t the Theo!ophi!t!.
0+ Did they re4el you 5ro8 the very !eginning6
,.G.: &ro' the #ery 1eginning, in a (ay. But I continued to 2end 2or 'y!e2. I (anted !o 'uch to
2ree 'y!e2 2ro' 'y pa!t. I tried so hard. A2ter /. )ri!hna'urti (a3ed out on the (hoe thing I
e#entuay 1ro3e 2ro' the' Pthe Theo!ophi!t!Q a!o.
0+ Do you have 8e8ories o5 Annie %esant6
,.G.: @h, ye!M +he (a! a re'ar3a1e (o'an. I 'et her (hen I (a! 2ourteen. I re'e'1er her
oratory. 4y grand2ather (a! #ery co!e to Annie Be!ant. +he (a! an in!titution. I thin3 India ha!
e#ery rea!on to 1e than32u to her, in 'ore re!pect! than one. But the 'odern generation
doe!n;t 3no( a thing a1out her. Neither do they 3no( 'uch o2 Gandhi. It i! di22icut to !ay ho(
'uch peope no( re'e'1er a1out hi'. Thi! ne( 2i' on hi' (i pro1a1y !par3 !o'e intere!t
in hi! i2e.
0+ 1hat do you thin3 o5 Gandhi<s !elie5s6
,.G.: *ou (ant 'y opinion. I (i 2reey gi#e it. &or !o'e rea!on or other I ne#er i3ed hi'.
Derhap! it (a! 'y Theo!ophica 1ac3ground. A1o#e a, he (a! a 'i:ture o2 a !aint and a
poitician. I thin3 he (a! the ony 'an a'ong!t the (hoe ot (ho reay tried to 'ode hi! i2e
a2ter (hat he pro2e!!ed to 1eie#e in. %e 'ay ha#e 2aied66he has 2aied in 'y opinion661ut the
2act that he tried to i#e according to the 'ode he had 1e2ore hi', 'ade hi' an intere!ting
chap. 4any other! 1e!ide! hi' (ere in!tru'enta in gaining India;! 2reedo'. .hat he ha! e2t
thi! country i! nothing. It i! a !enti'enta thing to gi#e ecture! on hi' e#ery year on hi!
1irthday. %e and hi! 2oo(er! ta3ed e#era!tingy, 1ut, a! the ne( 2i' !ho(!, he u!ed #ioence
2ro' !tart to 2ini!h.
0+ %ut you "an also say that o5 Christ2 %uddha2 and Moha88ed. It is those who "o8e
a5ter a great tea"her that 8isa44ly his tea"hings ...
,.G.: *ou cannot e:onerate the 2ounder! and eader! o2 reigion!. The teaching! o2 a tho!e
teacher! and !a#ior! o2 'an3ind ha#e re!uted in ony #ioence. "#ery1ody ta3ed o2 peace and
o#e, (hie their 2oo(er! practiced #ioence.
There i! !o'ething 2unny a1out the (hoe 1u!ine!!. It (a! thi! gap 1et(een (ord and deed
that !ignaed to 'e eary on that !o'ething (a! #ery (rong. I 2et that the teaching! (ere
(rong, 1ut I ac3ed certainty. I had no (ay o2 1ru!hing the' a!ide, putting the' entirey out o2
'y con!ciou!ne!!. I (a! not ready to accept any o2 the' on !enti'enta ground!. "#en (hen
'y e22ort! to 1e rid o2 the' re!uted in epi!ode! o2 Chri!t and Buddha con!ciou!ne!!, !ti I (a!
di!content. I 3ne( that there must 1e !o'ething (rong !o'e(here. Thi! (a! reay 'y
pro1e', you 3no(.
0+ You re9e"t things on !oth senti8ental and rational grounds. 1hat is le5t6
,.G.: It i! i3e the 'an (ho i! riding a tiger and i! thro(n o22. The tiger, 'aintaining it! o(n
'o'entu', continue! on 66 it;! gone. That;! a there i! to it. *ou cannot do anything (ith the
tiger any'ore. +o you ne#er again ha#e the 2ear o2 encountering or riding the tiger. It i! 2ini!hed.
It ha! gone.
+o I thin3 there i! itte point in 'y doing anything in !ociety 66 it ha! it! o(n 'o'entu'.
Anything you try to do (i engu2 you and add to that 'o'entu'.G .ho ha! gi#en the 'andate
to a the!e peope to !a#e 'an3ind8 Co'pa!!ion and o#e are t(o o2 their gi''ic3!.
0+ Did you ever 8eet that strange old Theoso4hist "alled .ead!eater during your
Theoso4hi"al days6
,.G.: *e!, I 'et hi'. %e (a! a!o part o2 'y 1ac3ground. %e ne#er i'pre!!ed 'e #ery 'uch. I
a' a(are that there (ere ru'or! that he (a! a ho'o!e:ua. It doe!n;t 'atter to 'e. +e: i! a
part o2 i2e. %o'o!e:uaity, e!1iani!', hetero!e:uaity, it;! a the !a'e. I don;t ha#e any 'ora
po!ition. +ociety, (hich ha! created a the!e !ociopath!, ha! in#ented 'oraity to protect it!e2
2ro' the'. Count 'e out. +ociety ha! created the 7!aint!7 and 7!inner!7. I don;t accept the' a!
!uch.
There can 1e error, 'i!ta3e!, (ea3ne!!, 1ut no !in 2or 'e. I per!onay !ee no rea!on (hy (e
!houd 1other (ith the Bi1e, the )oran, the Gita, or the hamma)adaA1B. .e ha#e a poitica
1ody (ith it! ci#i and cri'ina code!. That !houd 1e !u22icient to hande the pro1e'.
Notes+
A1B hamma)ada: A Buddhi!t ca!!ic, o22iciay a part o2 the ,utta)itaka, one o2 the three
71a!3et!7 containing the teaching! o2 the Buddha coected a1out the third century B.C.
CHAT$, * + TH$ %#DY AS A C,UCI%.$
,.G.: *ou are operating under a great 'any a!!u'ption!. The 2ir!t a!!u'ption i! that you thin3
a hu'an 1eing! are e:acty the !a'e. I 'aintain that no t(o indi#idua! are the !a'e. *our
atte'pt to arri#e at the greate!t co''on deno'inator i! !e26de2eating.
0+ As s"ientists we want to 5ind out i5 there is a uniqueness !ehind the a44arent
si8ilarities in 4eo4le. 1e are interested in hu8an dissi8ilarities and e7"e4tions. The
yogins and religious leaders see8 to o55er us "ases o5 really e7"e4tional and unique
4ersons. 1e want to study the82 and you.
,.G.: Fon;t you ha#e any other (ay o2 2inding out than going to the!e yogins and cai'ant! (ho
are pedding their (are! in the 'ar3etpace8 The !econd6rater! 'ay !u1'it to your !crutiny, 1ut
the rea 4cCoy, i2 there i! one, (i ne#er !u1'it to your te!t!. Thi! (i 1e a #ery 1ig pro1e' 2or
you. *ou can;t get a /. )ri!hna'urti, a +ai Ba1a, or a 4u3tananda to cooperate. Tho!e you can
get to act a! guinea pig! are cheaper 1y the do?en.
0+ %ut then how are we to go a!out 5inding the !asis o5 inner trans5or8ation6
,.G.: I don;t no(. I (oud !ugge!t, ho(e#er, that you gi#e no credence to the cai'! the!e
peope 'a3e. "#erything 'u!t 1e te!ted.
0+ That is the whole 4oint+ we are trying to 5ind a way to test their "redi!ility on a
s"ienti5i" !asis.
,.G.: I a' a2raid that you are 'a3ing a horrendou! 'i!ta3e 1y e#en toying (ith the idea o2
gi#ing any con!ideration to the cai'! that the!e peope 'a3e. "#erything 'u!t 1e te!ted.
0+ The only thing we have to wor3 with is the statisti"s and data o5 what we "all
=nor8al"y=2 nothing 8ore.
,.G.: The an!(er! to thi! pro1e', a! a your pro1e'!, ha#e to co'e 2ro' you, not 2ro' the!e
yogins and 'editator!. *ou 'ay 1e 'a3ing a tre'endou! 'i!ta3e. Thi! i! (hat I te the
.e!tern p!ychoogi!t! a!o. *ou ha#e no o19ecti#e reation!hip (ith the data and 3no(edge
you coect. *our con!tant interpretation o2 data 'ean! that you are in#o#ed in (hat you are
!tudying< there i! no !eparate entity. It i! the interpreter that i! o2 the greate!t i'portance.
0+ %ut2 o5 "ourse2 it<s 4ossi!le and ne"essary to study 8an ...
,.G.: %e ha! to under!tand hi'!e2 2ir!t. Are the data and 3no(edge66and the theorie! you
deri#e 2ro' the'66going to hep in thi! regard8 &ro' the point o2 #ie( o2 3no(edge, there i! no
(ay o2 under!tanding your!e2. The co'puter 'achine ne#er a!3! it!e2, 7%o( a' I
2unctioning87 =eay under!tanding your!e2 de'and! not the 'ere accu'uation o2 data, 1ut a
5uantu' 9u'p. I i3e to u!e the e:a'pe o2 Ne(tonian phy!ic!. .ithin the Ne(tonian
2ra'e(or3, thing! (or3 in a certain (ay. Another !cienti!t e#entuay co'e! aong (ho i! a1e
to drop the Ne(tonian a!!u'ption! and there1y i! a1e to percei#e a (hoe ne( di'en!ion o2
phy!ic!. /u!t a! Ne(tonian principe! e#entuay 1eca'e a !trait69ac3et !tranging creati#e
thought, !o your data a1out hu'an uni5uene!! 1ar! your oo3ing at thing!, incuding your!e2,
ane(.
I i3e to u!e the e:a'pe o2 Dica!!o. %e had the !a'e pro1e': he (anted to 1rea3 ne(
ground, 2ind ne( techni5ue!. %e achie#ed a 1rea3through and e#entuay 1eca'e a 'ode 2or
other!. Cery cheap arti!t! are no( i'itating hi! !tye. +o, one day, "in!teinian phy!ic! (i ha#e
to !tep a!ide 2or a 2re!h !y!te' o2 3no(edge. I !u1'it that nature i! atte'pting to create a
uni5ue indi#idua e#ery ti'e !o'ething i! created. Nature doe! not !ee' to u!e anything a! a
'ode. .hen once it ha! per2ected a uni5ue indi#idua, that indi#idua i! thro(n o22 the
e#outionary proce!! and i! o2 no 2urther intere!t to nature.
Thi! i! (hy (hate#er I a', (hate#er I !ay, cannot 1e dupicated 1y another. There2ore, 1eing
incapa1e o2 tran!'i!!ion, it ha! no !ocia #aue. Nature ha! no u!e 2or 'e, and neither ha!
!ociety. By u!ing the 'ode! o2 /e!u!, Buddha, or )ri!hna (e ha#e de!troyed the po!!i1iity o2
nature thro(ing up uni5ue indi#idua!. Tho!e (ho reco''end that you 2orget your o(n natura
uni5uene!! and 1e i3e !o'eone e!e, no 'atter ho( !ainty that per!on 'ay 1e, i! putting you
on the (rong trac3. It i! i3e the 1ind eading the 1ind.
.hen deaing (ith the!e yogins and hoy 'en the 2ir!t (rong turn you ta3e i! in trying to reate
the (ay they are 2unctioning (ith the (ay you are 2unctioning. .hat they are de!cri1ing 'ay not
1e reated to the (ay you are 2unctioning at a. ,ni5uene!! i! not !o'ething (hich can 1e
turned out in a 2actory. +ociety i! intere!ted ony in the !tatu! 5uo and ha! pro#ided a the!e !o6
caed !pecia indi#idua! !o that you; ha#e 'ode! to 2oo(. *ou (ant to 1e i3e that 2eo(66the
!aint, the !a#ior, or the re#outionary661ut it i! an i'po!!i1iity. *our !ociety, (hich i! ony
intere!ted in turning out copie! o2 accepta1e 'ode!, i! threatened 1y rea indi#iduaity 1ecau!e
it Pindi#iduaityQ threaten! it! continuity. A truy uni5ue per!on, ha#ing no cutura re2erence point,
(oud ne#er 3no( that he i! uni5ue.
0+ %ut isn<t it 4ossi!le that the very 4resen"e o5 a unique 4erson2 a 5ully 5lowered
individual2 "an !e o5 so8e hel4 to others2 not in the sense o5 4roviding a 8odel2 !ut in
4ossi!ly triggering "hange and uniqueness in others6
,.G. I !ay no. Becau!e the uni5ue indi#idua cannot reproduce hi'!e2 either phy!icay or
!pirituay, nature di!card! hi' a! u!ee!!. Nature i! ony intere!ted in reproducing, and 2ro'
ti'e to ti'e thro(ing out a 7!port7 or uni5ue !peci'en. Thi! !peci'en, not a1e to reproduce
it!e2, i! 2ini!hed (ith e#oution, and i! not intere!ted in 'a3ing o2 it!e2 a 'ode 2or other!. That
i! a I a' !aying.
0+ Don<t you 5eel that that throwing u4 o5 uniqueness !y nature is the 5lowering o5
uniqueness 5or the individual6
,.G.: That i! 1ound to happen in indi#idua! (ho, through !o'e chance or accident, 'anage to
2ree the'!e#e! 2ro' the 1urden o2 the entire pa!t. I2 the entire coecti#e 3no(edge and
e:perience o2 'an i! thro(n out, (hat i! e2t i! a pri'ordia and pri'e#a !tate (ithout the
pri'iti#ene!!. That 3ind o2 indi#idua i! o2 no u!e to !ociety at a. >i3e a !hady tree, thi!
indi#idua 'ay pro#ide !hade, 1ut can ne#er 1e con!ciou! o2 hi! doing !o. I2 you !it under the
tree, a coconut 'ay 2a on your head< there i! a danger in#o#ed. &or thi! rea!on !ociety 'ay
2ee threatened 1y thi! indi#idua. Thi! !ociety, !tructured the (ay it i!, can 'a3e no u!e o2 !uch
a per!on.
I don;t 1eie#e in 7lokasamgraha7, the heping o2 'an3ind, co'pa!!ion 2or the !u22ering (ord,
i2ting a itte o2 the hea#y karma o2 the (ord, and a that 3ind o2 thing. No one appointed 'e
!a#ior to 'an3ind.
0+ So2 you are saying2 are you not2 that no s"ienti5i" a44roa"h2 yogi" a44roa"h2 or
8editative a44roa"h2 "an have any relationshi4 to the uniqueness and 5reedo8 you are
tal3ing o52 is that it6
,.G.: I (i te you a !tory a1out that. .hen I (a! young I did *oga in the %i'aaya! 2or !e#en
year! (ith +i#ananda +ara!(ati. It didn;t hep, !o I dropped it. A2ter 'y 7caa'ity7 in 190E I 2et
that 'y 1ody coud not endure the tre'endou! out1ur!t! o2 energy ta3ing pace there. +o I
con2erred (ith a 2riend, +ri Fe!i3achar, (ho (a! a yoga teacher. %e !aid, 7I don;t 3no( i2 I can
1e o2 any hep. Derhap! 'y 2ather AFr. )ri!hna'acharya o2 4adra!B 'ay 1e a1e to hep you.7
+o I practiced !o'e yoga techni5ue! 2or a !econd ti'e. But I !oon 2ound 2or 'y!e2 that the
(hoe yoga 1u!ine!! run! counter to the natura (ay the 1ody i! 2unctioning. I tried to di!cu!! it
(ith the'. But (hat I !aid did not 2it into Datan9ai;! 76oga ,utras7A1B, !o (e coud not
co''unicate. "#entuay, I announced to the' that I (a! dropping 'y yoga practice. .hen
once the organi!' ha! 2reed it!e2 2ro' the !trangehod o2 thought, anything you do to try to
1ring a1out peace and har'ony there ony create! di!har'ony and #ioence. It i! i3e u!ing (ar
to create peace in a peace2u (ord. .hen the !earch it!e2 co'e! to an end, it co'e! to an end
(ith a 1ig 1ang, a! it (ere. Then peace i! !o'ething that cannot 1e practiced or taught.
0+ I don<t thin3 that we are really interested in any su"h !ig !ang. 1e want so8e wisdo82
so8e serenity.
,.G.: +o, a hungry 'an i! !ati!2ied (ith !o'e cru'1! thro(n at hi'. +oon he (ant! a 2u oa2
and i! pro'i!ed !uch 1y the hoy pur#eyor! in the 'ar3etpace. It i! not a 5ue!tion o2 !ati!2ying
hunger. %unger 'u!t 1urn it!e2 out (ithout 3no(ing !ati!2action. The hunger, and the !earch it
entai!, i! the pro1e'.
I2 you drop the 2ictitiou! 'ode! o2 the !aint and hoy 'an, you are e2t (ith the natura 1ioogica
arrange'ent. The !eparati#e !tructure o2 thought, (hich (a! introduced into the con!ciou!ne!!
o2 'an ong ago, ha! created the #ioent (ord, and (i pro1a1y pu!h 'an and the re!t o2 i2e
on thi! panet to the 1rin3 o2 e:tinction. But 1ioogicay each ce ha! the (i!do' to a#oid
'ode! and pro'i!e!, and !i'py, out o2 !heer !ur#i#a 'oti#e!, cooperate! (ith the ce ne:t to
it. @ut o2 the terror o2 annihiation, 'an, i3e the ce! o2 hi! 1ody, (i earn to cooperate, 1ut not
out o2 o#e or co'pa!!ion.
0+ %ehind this !iologi"al "oo4eration and the 5lowering o5 individuality is there not so8e
trans"endental thing trying to "o8e out ...6
,.G.: I don;t thin3 !o. It i! highy indi#iduai!tic, not in the u!ua !en!e a! de2ined 1y cuture, 1ut
in a di22erent (ay. The contro o2 the 1ody through thought ha! de!troyed the po!!i1iity o2
hu'an! gro(ing into co'pete hu'an!, that;! a. *ou 'ay di!pen!e (ith the notion, !o
pre#aent no(, that a(arene!! can hep 1ring a1out any 5uaitati#e change in you. Nature i!
trying to create a uni5ue indi#idua there. The potentia i! aready there in you. But !o'e(here
aong the ine 'an3ind got o22 on the (rong trac3 and there !ee'! to 1e no (ay out.
0+ In relation to the 5lowering o5 individuality2 the question that 3ee4s arising is2 =1hy
not 8e6=
,.G.: /u!t 2orget it, you ha#en;t got a chance. There i! nothing you can do. I don;t 3no( (hat to
ad#i!e you to do. *ou are !tuc3. Derhap! the genetici!t! and 'icro1ioogi!t! (i co'e up (ith
the an!(er!.. I can a!!ure you that the hoy 1u!ine!! (on;t hep you one 1it. &urther, i2 the !tate
get! a hod o2 the 'ean! to do genetic engineering, they (i u!e it to ta3e a(ay the a!t
#e!tige! o2 'an;! 2reedo'. Then that (i really 1e the end o2 it.
It i! po!!i1e to u!e, again, the !i'ie o2 the co'puter. They, the co'puter!, ha#e 1eco'e !o
!ophi!ticated no( that they are thin3ing and !e26correcting the'!e#e!. .e 'ay, !o'eday, 9u!t
ha#e to pug the' in and then 2oo( their ad#ice. I2 you coud et your 1ody 2unction i3e a
co'puter you (oud ha#e it. The e:traordinary inteigence o2 the 1ioogica organi!' i! a that
i! nece!!ary 2or good i#ing, 1ut (e are a the ti'e inter2ering (ith it! natura operation through
the 'ediu' o2 thought. *our 7natura7 1odiy co'puter i! aready progra''ed, pre!!ed, and
pugged inM *ou don;t ha#e to do a thingM .e are a #ery ong (ay 2ro' thi! pri'a condition.
+o'eho(, you !ee, !o'ething hit! you i3e ightning and 1urn! the (hoe thing there. Thi! 'an
then i! neither !inner nor !aint< he i! 2ar out!ide the 2ra'e(or3 o2 !ociety.
0+ So2 all we "an 4ra"ti"e2 i5 that is the word2 is non:inter5eren"e6
,.G.: Trying to !tay out o2 the (ay i'pie! that you are (aiting 2or !o'ething 'ar#eou! to
happen. +uch (aiting pre#ent! the po!!i1iity o2 anything happening. I a' teing you a thi!
2ro' 'y o(n e:perience. &or 2orty6nine year! I !earched 2or a 'an caed 7,.G.7 The (hoe
cuture put 'e on the (rong trac3. I tried the dead guru! a! (e a! the i#ing guru!. "#entuay, I
reai?ed that the !earch (a! u!ee!!, that the 7ene'y (a! 'e7. No( the entire 3no(edge, and
the !earch it engendered, ha! 1een thro(n out o2 'y !y!te' co'petey.
0+ And you 5eel no o!ligation to hel4 others to understand this thing ...6
,.G.: It i!n;t a 'ar3eta1e co''odity, !irM It i! !i'py the a1!ence o2 a 2a!e de'and (hich ha!
1een put in there 1y !ociety and cuture. The de'and to change one;! !e2 and the de'and to
change the (ord go out o2 the !y!te' together. I a' neither anti!ocia nor than32u to !ociety. I
don;t 2ee any 1ounden duty to pay any part or to hep 'y 2eo( 'en. A thi! 3ind o2 thing i!
1aderda!h.
0+ So wanting to "hange the world2 no 8atter how no!le one 8ay 5eel a!out it2 is a sel5:
"entered2 egotisti" a"tivity. Is that what you are saying6
,.G.: The 'an (ho i! trying to 2ree hi'!e2 2ro' the (ord, or 2ro' (hat he ca! 7e#i7 i! actuay
the 'o!t egoti!tica o2 'en. The !hattering perception that 2inay da(n! on you i! that there i!
no !uch thing a! 7ego7 at aM Thi! in!ight 1o(! e#erything apart (ith a tre'endou! 2orce (hen
it hit! you. It i! not an e:perience that can 1e !hared (ith another. It i! not an e:perience at a.
It i! a caa'ity in (hich 1oth e:perience and the e:periencer co'e to an end. A 'an in !uch a
!tate doe! not e!cape reaity and ha! no ro'antic tendencie!. %e har1or! no hu'ani!tic
notion! a1out !a#ing the (ord, 2or he 3no(! that anything that i! done to !a#e it ony add!
'o'entu' to it. %e 3no(! that there i! nothing you can do&.
0+ %ut we 8ust go on living and a"ting. How "an we "on"eive o5 a"tion that does not add
8o8entu8 to the "haos o5 so"iety6
,.G.: That;! 9u!t another concept. *our action! and the con!e5uence! o2 tho!e action! 2or'
one !inge e#ent. It i! the ogica, cau!e6and6e22ect thin3ing that i'po!e! a !e5uence to e#ent!.
The !udden e#idence o2 ight and the thro(ing o2 the ight !(itch (hich 7preceded7 it are
actuay one thing, not t(o. They appear to you a! t(o or 'ore e#ent! ony 1ecau!e ti'e ha!
created a !pace 1et(een. But ti'e and !pace, apart 2ro' the idea! o2 7ti'e7 and 7!pace7, do
not e:i!t at a.
Creation and de!truction are going on !i'utaneou!y. The 1irth and death o2 thought happen
!i'utaneou!y. That i! (hy I in!i!t that there i! no !uch thing a! death at a. "#en the 1ody
doe! not die< it can change 2or' 1ut doe! not cea!e atogether. Becau!e death reay doe! not
e:i!t, it i! i'po!!i1e 2or you to e:perience it. .hat you do e:perience i! the #oid or e'ptine!!
you 2ee upon the di!appearance o2 !o'eone;! A7dead7B 1ody. Feath can ne#er 1e e:perienced,
and neither can 1irth 2or that 'atter. In your natura !tate, (here the 1ody i! ao(ed to 2unction
(ithout the inter2erence o2 thought, 1irth and death are going on a the ti'e.
0+ In this natural state you are tal3ing o52 are there any 4sy"hologi"al entities2 any
4ersonalities2 egos2 sel52 or identity at all6
,.G.: There are no per!on!, and no !pace (ithin to create a !e2. .hat i! e2t, a2ter the
continuity o2 thought i! 1o(n a(ay, i! one di!9ointed and independent !erie! o2 interaction!.
.hat happen! in the en#iron'ent around 'e, happen! in here. There i! no di#i!ion. .hen the
ar'or you are (earing around you i! !tripped a(ay, you 2ind an e:traordinary !en!iti#ity o2 the
!en!e! that re!pond! to the pha!e! o2 the 'oon, the pa!!age o2 the !ea!on!, and the
'o#e'ent! o2 the other panet!. There i! !i'py no i!oated, !eparate e:i!tence o2 it! o(n here,
ony the thro1 o2 i2e, i3e a 9ey2i!h.
0+ Can you des"ri!e a little o5 this re"urring death 4ro"ess you go through.
,.G.: It, o2 cour!e, de2ie! de!cription. But I can 'ention that in thi! death !tate, the ordinary
1reath !top! entirey, and the 1ody i! a1e to 71reathe7 through other phy!ioogica 'ean!.
A'ong the 'any doctor! I ha#e di!cu!!ed thi! !trange pheno'ena (ith, ony Fr. >e1oyer, an
e:pert in chid1irth, ga#e 'e a !ort o2 e:panation. %e !ay! that ne(1orn 1a1ie! ha#e a !i'iar
(ay 1reathing. Thi! i! pro1a1y (hat the origina (ord )ranayama 'eant. Thi! 1ody goe!
through the death proce!! on a daiy 1a!i!, !o o2ten that, in 2act, e#ery ti'e it rene(! it!e2 it i!
gi#en a onger ea!e. .hen, one day, it cannot rene( it!e2, it i! 2ini!hed and carted o22 to the
a!h heap.
Thi! death proce!! i! yoga, not the hundred! o2 po!ture! and 1reathing e:erci!e!. .hen the
thought proce!! !top! !pitting it!e2 in t(o, the 1ody goe! through a cinica death. &ir!t the
death 'u!t ta3e pace, then yoga 1egin!. *oga i! actuay the 1ody;! !3i in 1ringing it!e2 1ac3
2ro' the !tate o2 cinica death. Thi! i! !uppo!ed to ha#e happened to a 2e( peope, i3e +ri
=a'a3ri!hna and +ri =a'ana 4ahar!hi. I (a!n;t there and ha#e no intere!t or re!ource! to 2ind
out i2 thi! i! !o. Thi! yoga o2 rene(a i! an e:traordinary thing. I2 you o1!er#e a ne(1orn 1a1y,
you (i ha#e o1!er#ed the (ay it 'o#e! and articuate! it! (hoe 1ody, a in a natura rhyth'.
A2ter the 1reath and heart1eat co'e to a'o!t a co'pete !top, !o'eho( the 1ody 1egin! to
7co'e 1ac37. The corp!e6i3e appearance o2 the 1ody66the !ti22ne!!, codne!!, and a!h
co#ering661egin to di!appear. The 1ody (ar'! up and 1egin! to 'o#e, and the 'eta1oi!',
incuding the pu!e, pic3! up. I2 you, out o2 !cienti2ic curio!ity, (i!h to te!t 'e, I a' not
intere!ted. I a' !i'py 'a3ing a !tate'ent, not !eing a product.
+o, it i! 'uch 'ore i3e the Chine!e Tai6Chi than ca!!ica *oga asanas7. The 'o#e'ent! and
po!ture! that the 1ody per2or'! (hen 1rea3ing do(n the !ti22ne!! e2t o#er 2ro' the death
proce!! are 1eauti2u, grace2u 'o#e'ent!, i3e tho!e o2 a ne(1orn 1a1y. *ogin! no( pre!cri1e
sa(asana, the corp!e po!ture, after the per2or'ance o2 any 'o#ing po!ture!. Thi! i! 1ac3(ard.
*ou !tart yoga a! a dead !ti22 1ody, then the 1ody i! rene(ed through natura rhyth'ic
'o#e'ent!. Dro1a1y there (a! !o'e guru (ho (ent through thi! natura death proce!! and
hi! di!cipe!, (atching hi' return to i2e, tried to dupicate thi! death proce!! though 1reathing
and po!ture techni5ue!. They got it 1ac3(ard. &ir!t, you 'u!t die, then, there i! yoga.
Thi! (hoe proce!! o2 dying and 1eing rene(ed, athough it happen! to 'e 'any ti'e! a day,
and a(ay! (ithout 'y #oition, re'ain! #ery intriguing to 'e. It 9u!t happen! out o2 no(here.
"#en the thought o2 the !e2 or ego ha! 1een annihiated. +ti there i! something there
e:periencing thi! death. @ther(i!e, I (oud not 1e a1e to de!cri1e it here.
.ith the a1!ence o2 any de'and to repeat or u!e thi! death proce!!, the !en!e! are gi#en a
2ied day. The 1reath, no onger under the do'ination o2 the !eparati#e thought !tructure, can
re!pond 2uy to the phy!ica en#iron'ent. ,pon !eeing a 1eauti2u 'ountain or !un!et, the
1reath i! !uddeny dra(n out o2 you, then 1ac3 in, a in a natura rhyth'. Thi! i! (here the
e:pre!!ion 71reathta3ing 1eauty7 pro1a1y co'e! 2ro'. The ony (ay you 1eco'e con!ciou! o2
thing! happening round you i! through !u1te change! in 1reathing pattern!. It i! a tre'endou!
'echani!', and in it there are no per!on!, no thing! ...
0+ So this non:lung !reathing is e4i4heno8enal to the death 4ro"ess2 a side show as it
were ...6
,.G.: Not nece!!ariy. +o'eti'e! you are 9u!t !itting there and you !uddeny 2ee a !hortne!! o2
1reath, a'o!t a ga!ping 2or air. It i! !o'ething i3e a !econd (ind. The yogins are trying to
achie#e thi! !econd (ind through the practice o2 #ariou! techni5ue!. +o do the athetic runner!.
I2 you (atch the runner! you (i !ee that they ha#e to pa!! a 7(a7 o2 e:hau!tion and !hortne!!
o2 1reath. @nce through the 7(a7 they are running on a !econd (ind. It i! !o'ething i3e that
2or 'e. But e#en thi! pa!!e!, and 2inay 1reathing !top! atogether and the 1ody 1ypa!!e! the
ung!, 1reathing (ith the pu!e o2 the 1ody aone. +o'eti'e!, (hen there i! no1ody to ta3 to, I
!it and ao( a the!e !trange thing! to happen.
0+ Haven<t western do"tors atte84ted to des"ri!e the glandular "hanges that a""o84any
this death 4ro"ess6
,.G.: *e!, 1ut there i! itte under!tanding o2 thi! 3ind o2 thing in the anna! o2 .e!tern
'edicine. @ne paper, done 1y Fr. Dau >ynn o2 the ,nited +tate!, !tre!!e! the di22erence in the
(ay 'y thy'u! gand 2unction!. But there are other gand! that are a22ected a!o666the pinea,
the pituitary, and other!. The pinea gand, (hich contro! the (hoe 'o#e'ent, 1reathing, and
coordination o2 the 1ody, i! greaty a22ected. .hen the !eparati#e thought !tructure die!, the!e
gand! and ner#e pe:u!e! ta3e o#er the 2unctioning o2 the organi!'. It i! a pain2u proce!!, 2or
the hod o2 thought o#er the gand! and pe:u!e! i! !trong and ha! to 1e 71urnt7 o22. Thi! can 1e
e:perienced 1y an indi#idua. The 1urning or 7ioni?ation7 need! energy and !pace to ta3e pace.
&or thi! rea!on the i'it! o2 the 1ody are reached, (ith energy a!hing out in a direction!. The
1ody;! contain'ent o2 that energy in it! i'ited 2or' 1ring! pain, e#en though there i! no
e:periencer o2 pain there.
Thi! pain2u death proce!! i! !o'ething no1ody66not e#en the 'o!t ardent reigiou!
practitioner! and yogins66(ant!. It i! a #ery pain2u thing. It i! not the re!ut o2 (i, 1ut i! the
re!ut o2 a 2ortuitou! concour!e o2 ato'!.
%o( a thi! 2it! into your !cienti2ic !tructure, I do not 3no(. +cienti!t! doing (or3 in thi! 2ied are
intere!ted in the!e change!, i2 they are de!cri1ed in phy!ioogica rather than 'y!tica ter'!.
The!e !cienti!t! en#i!age thi! 3ind o2 'an a! repre!enting the end product o2 1ioogica
e#oution, not the !cience62iction !uper'an or !uper !piritua 1eing!. Nature i! ony intere!ted in
creating an organi!' that can re!pond 2uy and inteigenty to !ti'ui and reproduce it!e2.
That;! a. Thi! 1ody i! capa1e o2 e:traordinary perception! and !en!ation!. It i! a 'ar#e. I
don;t 3no( (ho created it.
+cienti!t! in the 2ied o2 e#oution no( thin3 that the pre!ent 1reed o2 hu'an! (e ha#e on thi!
panet pro1a1y e#o#ed out o2 a degenerated !pecie!. The 'utation that carried on the !e26
con!ciou!ne!! 'u!t ha#e ta3en pace in a degenerate !pecie!. That i! (hy (e ha#e 'e!!ed
e#erything up. It i! any1ody;! gue!! a! to (hether anyone can change the (hoe thing.
0+ Is it 4ossi!le that a survivor o5 this total death 4ro"ess2 a 8utant o5 so8e sort2 "ould
"hange the "ourse o5 hu8an destiny2 so to s4ea36
,.G.: The cai'! they 'a3e ha#e reay no 1a!i! at a, 2or they !pea3 o2 a22ecting the (hoe o2
hu'an con!ciou!ne!!. I thin3 that hu'an con!ciou!ne!! in it! totaity i! a tre'endou!y
po(er2u thing, (ith a !trong 'o'entu' o2 it! o(n. I don;t thin3 they reai?e (hat they are
ta3ing a1out. The (hoe o2 hu'an con!ciou!ne!! i! a #ery 2or'ida1e thing. The ony
con!ciou!ne!! they 3no( o2 i! that created 1y thought. The thin3ing con!ciou!ne!! o2 'an can
ony 1e a22ected 1y propaganda, per!ua!ion, or drug!. Any change 2ro' the!e !ource! i! ony
(ithin the od 2ra'e(or3, and, there2ore, u!ee!!. .hat can (e change8 I! change nece!!ary8
.hat 2or8 I don;t 3no(.
0+ It sounds as i5 a "ertain soil is needed to grow the 3ind o5 8utants you des"ri!e. 1e
are all !rought u4 in !arren2 8edio"re2 and unnourishing soil. 1ill not so8e other soil
hel46
,.G.: The !en!iti#ity i! !ti there, de!pite the poor !oi. The (hoe 1ueprint i! there, i3e in the
pant !itting o#er there. I2 you don;t (ater and nouri!h it, it die!. Nothing i! o!t 2or 'an3ind.
Fon;t atte'pt to de#eop ne( !oi co'po!ition!. That i! (hat (e ha#e done (ith the tree! and
pant!, and (e are no( pouting the (hoe panet. The !a'e (oud happen (ith trying to
cuti#ate a 1etter !train o2 'an3ind.
0+ >ro8 the way you des"ri!e it2 there 8ust !e a radi"al "hange in the sour"e o5 one<s
identity a5ter the "olla4se o5 the se4arative stru"ture. Is there a sel5 that re8ains a5ter the
=e74losion=6 Is the =I= only in the !rain6
,.G.: There i! no 7I7. 7I7 i! ony a 2ir!t per!on !inguar pronoun. The totaity o2 the thought!,
2eeing!, e:perience!, and hope! o2 'an3ind con!titute the 7I7. It i! a product o2 the pa!t. That
7I7 i! a !y'1o o2 the totaity o2 'an;! con!ciou!ne!!. Actuay , there i! no !eparate, di!creet
p!ychoogica entity there, ony the (ord 7I7. +i'iary, there i! ony the (ord 7'ind7, 1ut no !uch
thing a! your 'ind and my mind. +o the (ord 7'ind7 ha! created u! a 2or the !i'pe rea!on
that it need! each o2 u! to 'aintain it! continuity. The !eparati#e !tructure o2 (hat (e ca 7the
'ind7 #itiated the natura !ur#i#a 'echani!' o2 the 1ody to the e:tent that our !ociety ha!
pu!hed it to the i'it! o2 toerance. The %6Bo'1 i! an e:ten!ion o2 the poice'an there hired to
protect 'e and 'y property. It i! no onger po!!i1e to dra( a ine 1et(een the t(o. But the
!ur#i#a o2 the !eparati#e !tructure guarantee! the e#entua de!truction o2 the phy!ica
organi!'.
0+ 1hy is it that your words do not trigger so8e radi"al a"tion in us ...6
,.G.: .hat opportunity that 'ight ha#e 1een there i! aready o!t 1ecau!e (hate#er ha! 1een
!aid here ha! aready 1een appropriated 1y and 1eco'e part o2 your od 2ra'e(or3. *our !o6
caed !en!iti#ity to (hat ha! 1een !aid doe! not go #ery deep. "#erything that (a! !tanding a!
an o1!tace 1e2ore i! !ti there. In 2act, it ha! 1een !trengthened 1y thi! con#er!ation. The !e2
(i u!e anything to perpetuate it!e2< nothing i! !acred. I2 you do try to go deep and de'oi!h
(hat i! there, it i! only (ith the idea and purpo!e o2 con!tructing a ne( !uper!tructure.
0+ 1hy do you assu8e that6
,.G.: Becau!e that;! the (ay it (or3!.
0+ Su44ose I a8 serious a!out it and so8ehow 5ind out....
,.G.: No !uppo!ition!, pea!eM .hat happened to 'e (a! acau!a< it 9u!t happened. In !pite o2
a 'y e22ort!, !trugge!, and intention!, thi! thing happened to 'e, and that i! the miracle of
miracles. *ou cannot 'a3e thi! happen. It i! not !u19ect to dupication 1ecau!e (hen it hit! you,
it hit! you at a ti'e and pace ne#er 1e2ore touched 1y i2e. It i! not an e:perience at a, and,
there2ore, cannot 1e co''unicated or tran!'itted. It i! not !o'ething you !hare. It i! a rare
1ird, that;! a. A you can do i! to put it in a 'u!eu' and oo3 at it, 1ut you can ne#er dupicate
or !hare it.
0+ It is 5rightening to thin3 o5 living without a "enter2 a sel52 a re5eren"e 4oint....
,.G.: The re2erence point, the 7I7, cannot 1e ei'inated through any #oition on your part. In the
2ina anay!i!, it i! your geneticay predeter'ined progra', your 7!cript7. To 1e 2ree o2 that
'i!era1e genetic de!tiny, to thro( a(ay the 7!cript7, de'and! tre'endou! courage. *ou ha#e
to 1ru!h e(erything a!ide to 2ind out. *our pro1e' i! not ho( to get !o'ething 2ro' !o'e1ody,
1ut ho( to re9ect e#erything that i! o22ered 1y any1ody. There i!, in 2act, no 7ho(7 to it. Thi!
de'and! a #aor that co'e! 1e2ore courage, 2or it! e:i!tence i'pie! the occurrence o2
!o'ething great 66 the i'po!!i1e. No a'ount o2 cuti#ation, o2 either 'ee3ne!! or courage, (i
1e o2 any hep (hat!oe#er. There i! not a thing you can do, 2or thi! thing i! o2 one;! entire 1eing,
and anything you do i! 2rag'entary, partia. *ou 'u!t 1e hepe!! ...
.hen I !it here and 'y eye! are open, the (hoe o2 'y 1eing i! the eye!. It i! a tre'endou!
7#i!ta6#i!ion7, (ith e#erything pa!!ing through you. *our oo3ing i! !o inten!e and undi!tracted
that the eye! ne#er 1in3 and there i! no roo' e2t 2or an 7I7 that i! oo3ing. "#erything oo3! at
'e, not (ice (ersa. A! it i! (ith the eye!, !o it i! (ith the other !en!e!, each ha#ing an
independent career o2 it! o(n. The !en!ua re!pon!e, (hich i! a that i! there, i! not 'odi2ied,
cen!ored, or coordinated, 1ut e2t aone to #i1rate in the 1ody. There i! a !ort o2 coordination
that ari!e! (hen the organi!' 'u!t 2unction 2or !ur#i#a and !'ooth 'echanica operation.
@ny enough coordination i! ao(ed (hich i! e!!entia to re!pond to a gi#en !ituation. Then
thing! ap!e 1ac3 into their independent, di!9ointed rhyth'.
Fo not tran!ate (hat I a' !aying here a! 71i!!7, 71eatitude7, or 7enighten'ent7. It i! actuay a
2rightening, 1e(idering !ituation. It ha! nothing to do (ith !o6caed 'y!tica or tran!cendenta
e:perience!. I !ee a1!outey no rea!on (hy a reigiou! or !piritua !ant !houd 1e gi#en to it at
a. I a' de!cri1ing nothing 'ore than a !i'pe phy!ioogica 2unctioning o2 the hu'an
organi!'. Athough a thi! i! not apart 2ro' nature, it (i ne#er 2it into any nature !tudy or
!cienti2ic 2or' o2 3no(edge.
0+ So you have to re9e"t everything6
,.G.: Not re9ect. The thing you are re9ecting, and the re9ection it!e2, ha#e no ree#ance to the
actua (ay your organi!' i! no( 2unctioning. .hen that i! !een ceary, there re'ain! nothing
to re9ect or renounce. *ou are prepared to re9ect !o that you can get, that;! a. *our ,pani!had!
!ay that it 'u!t 1e the o19ect o2 your 2onde!t and highe!t de!ire!. But I e'pha!i?e, on the
contrary, that the de!ire it!e2 'u!t co'e to an end. It i! the !earch it!e2, no 'atter ho( no1e
you 'ay thin3 it to 1e, that i! di!tur1ing you. &orget a1out the petty itte de!ire! you ha#e 1een
ad#i!ed to contro. .hen the de!ire o2 de!ire! i! di!pen!ed (ith, the other! are o2 no
i'portance.
0+ You are not saying that !e"ause what ha44ened to you "annot !e s"ienti5i"ally
a44re"iated in all its 5ullness2 that ordinary events2 things2 and 4eo4le "annot !e
a44re"iated 5ully2 are you6
,.G.: Certainy not. .ithin that 2ra'e(or3 e#erything i! #aid, reati#ey #aid. But the 7reaity7
you (ant to !tudy i! put together 1y the p!yche or !e2, and I e'phaticay deny 1oth. There2ore
your !earch 2or reaity, p!ychoogica authenticity, and !e26reai?ation i! 'eaninge!! to 'e.
They are the product! o2 2rightened peope. The !cienti2ic procedure, not the !e2, gi#e! you a
re2erence point !o that you 'ay 'ea!ure the truth or 2a!ene!! o2 (hat I a' !aying.
>oo3, I tried e#erything to 2ind an an!(er to 'y 1urning o1!e!!ion: 7I! there !uch a thing a!
enighten'ent at a, or ha#e (e a 1een 2ooed 1y a1!traction!87 That utter 2ru!tration and
co'pete 2aiure to an!(er that 5ue!tion created an inten!ity. The 2ir!t third o2 'y i2e (a! !pent
in India around Theo!ophi!t!, /. )ri!hna'urti, yogins, hoy 'en, !age!, =a'ana 4ahar!hi, the
=a'a3ri!hna @rder 66 in !hort, a the a!!ociation! that coud 1ene2it a per!on intere!ted in
!piritua 'atter!. I 2ound out 2or 'y!e2 that it (a! a 1ogu!, there (a! nothing to it at a. Totay
di!iu!ioned (ith the (hoe reigiou! tradition o2 1oth the "a!t and the .e!t, I punged 'y!e2
into 'odern p!ychoogy, !cience and, (hate#er the 'ateria (ord coud gi#e 'e. I 2ound out 2or
'y!e2 that the (hoe idea o2 !pirit or p!yche (a! 2a!e. .hen I e:peri'ented (ith and !tudied
the 'ateria (ord, I (a! !urpri!ed to 2ind that there (a! no !uch thing a! 'atter at a. Fenying
the !piritua and 'ateria 1a!i! o2 thing!, I (a! e2t (ith no(here to turn. I 1egan dri2ting on 'y
o(n, una1e to 2ind an an!(er 2ro' any !ource. Then one day the 2utiity o2 (hat I (a! doing
da(ned upon 'e, and the 5ue!tion (hich had o1!e!!ed 'e 2or a'o!t 'y entire i2e got 1urnt,
then di!appeared. A2ter that there (ere no 'ore 5ue!tion!. The thir!t 1urned it!e2 out (ithout
e#er !ati!2ying it!e2. Not an!(er!, 1ut the ending o2 5ue!tion!, i! the i'portant thing. "#en
though e#erything got 1urnt there, !ti e'1er! re'ain to e:pre!! the'!e#e! in a natura
rhyth'. .hat i'pact! thi! e:pre!!ion 'ay ha#e on the !ociety around 'e i! not 'y concern.

N#T$+
Datan9ai;! 6oga ,utras: The aphori!'! o2 Datan9ai;! yoga. The (or3 contain! di!cu!!ion o2 the
yoga conception o2 i1eration and the 'ean! to attain it.

G.#SSA,Y
Ahi8sa:
Non6#ioence.
Asana:
>it. +eat. A phy!ica po!ture. @ne o2 the eight 7i'1!7 o2 Datan9ai;! yoga.
Ashra8a:
A !piritua retreat.
At8a:
>it. The !e2. The interior !e2 a! di!tingui!hed 2ro' the e'pirica !e2 (hich one e:perience! in
e#eryday i2e. In the ,pani!had! and Ad#aita Cedanta, At'an i! 1eie#ed to 1e non6di22erent
2ro' Brah'an, the uti'ate reaity o2 the uni#er!e.
Avatara:
+an!3rit ter' 2or a !a#ior or !age.
%hagavan:
>it. God. A!o a 2or' o2 addre!!ing a i1erated per!on, a! !uch per!on! are 1eie#ed to attained
di#inity.
Cha3ras:
The ner#e pe:u!e! or center! aong the !pine and in the head through (hich the -undalini A!ee
1eo(B energy i! ed.
Guru+
A teacher, particuary o2 the !piritua 3ind.
?a4a:
>it. 4uttering or (hi!pering. A 'uttered prayer con!i!ting o2 reciting Aand repeatingB pa!!age!
2ro' !cripture!, !pe! or na'e! o2 a deity.
?ivan8u3ti:
>i1eration during one;! i2eti'e.
@ar8a:
The e22ect! o2 a per!on;! pa!t action! on hi! or her pre!ent and 2uture !tate.
@undalini:
A 2or' o2 yoga practiced in India, pri'ariy in the !choo o2 Tantra. The ter' 'ean! 7!erpent
po(er7, the energy (hich i! 1eie#ed to ie dor'ant in the hu'an 1eing and (hich through
1reath contro and other 'ean! i! 'ade to tra#e through #ariou! chakras A!ee a1o#eB aong the
!pine to 1e uti'atey united (ith uni#er!a energy or Godhead in the ,ahasrara chakra Athe
thou!and6petaed otu!B ocated in the top o2 the head.
.o3asa8graha:
>it. .e2are o2 the (ord. A!o the act o2 !a#ing the (ord.
Mahat8a:
>it. A great !ou. The tite o2 a !pirituay enightened per!on.
Mo3sha:
+an!3rit ter' 2or i1eration.
Mu3ti:
>it. =eea!e. >i1eration.
Murti:
>it. &or', !hape. An ido in a te'pe. A!o a !u22i: 2or !o'e gi#en na'e! in the +outh o2 India.
Nirvana:
>it. Bo(n out. Buddhi!t ter' 2or e:po!ion in con!ciou!ne!! eading to enighten'ent.
ranaya8a:
Breath contro. @ne o2 the eight 7i'1!7 o2 Datan9ai;! yoga. Con!i!t! o2 controed inhaation,
retention, and e:haation o2 air.
u9a:
Fe#otiona ritua and prayer.
undit:
A earned 'an. A!o u!ed a! an honorary tite.
,a8 na8+
A 'antra A7the na'e o2 =a'a7B the repetition o2 (hich i! u!ed a! part o2 'editation.
Sadhana+
+piritua practice.
Sa8adhi:
Feep 'editati#e trance !tate.
Sa8s3ara:
D!ychoogica conditioning or 'e'ory.
Sans3rit:
The ca!!ica anguage o2 India in (hich 'o!t reigiou! and !piritua iterature (a! co'po!ed.
Savasana+
The 7corp!e7 po!ture66one o2 the asanas A!ee a1o#eB con!i!ting o2 ying on the 1ac3 and
rea:ing a i'1!.
Swa8i:
>it. 4a!ter or ord. A 2or' o2 addre!!ing !piritua teacher! or one;! 2a#orite deity.
/edanta:
A !y!te' o2 %indu 'oni!tic or panthei!tic phio!ophy 1a!ed on the Ceda!.
Yoga:
>it. /oining or union. In genera, a path o2 i1eration. 4ore !peci2icay, the !y!te' o2 phy!ica
and 'enta di!cipine propounded 1y Datan9ai, the practice o2 (hich i! 1eie#ed to ead to
7i!oation7 or i1eration.