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(5:32:57 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: there are more questions i have no answer to on

this one page than my entire internet browing history combined


(5:33:10 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: http://www.quora.com/Homosexuality/How-does-one
-explain-homosexuality-when-it-does-not-lead-to-procreation
(5:35:45 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: http://www.quora.com/How-do-I-stay-positive-dur
ing-tough-times
(5:36:39 PM) Chris Antenucci: the first one's pretty easy- genetics and hormones
in the womb
(5:37:02 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: doesn't explain why nature doesnt select agains
t it
(5:37:25 PM) Chris Antenucci: it does to a large degree, that's why it's so rare
among the population
(5:38:36 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: given that it has no evolutionary advantage it
should have been erased from the gene pool long ago
(5:41:23 PM) Chris Antenucci: but the problem is it's not genetically inherited,
it's epigenetics based on hormones in the womb
(5:41:43 PM) Chris Antenucci: so there's no evolutionary argument to be made for
or against it cause it's not inherited genetically
(5:41:59 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: most advocates for gay rights use that argument
(5:42:13 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: saying gay people are born that way so they can
t change
(5:42:57 PM) Chris Antenucci: as a catholic i agree, they are born that way and
can't change their sexual predisposition, what they have control over is their b
ehavior and lifestyle
(5:44:06 PM) Chris Antenucci: the church doesn't teach that it's a sin to be gay
just like it's not a sin to be a man or woman, it's only a sin to be actively g
ay
(5:44:27 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: for most gay people they are one and the same
(5:45:28 PM) Chris Antenucci: i think there are some notable exceptions, but i w
ont stereotype, that may be true but painting with broad strokes doesnt help my
argument
(5:46:43 PM) Chris Antenucci: but regardless, whoever asked that question doesn'
t fundamentally understand being gay
(5:47:16 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: but he does understand the beliefs of people wh
o support gay rights
(5:48:12 PM) Chris Antenucci: the debate about why it doesnt lead to procreation
is a social and moral one, not an evolutionary one, and it's a mistake for any
opponent of gay rights to make it that
(5:50:12 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i just remembered i talked to a Filipino woman
on IP about this topic years ago
(5:50:44 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i saved it somewhere because it made me change
my position a little
(5:51:32 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: she was a devout Catholic who actively minister
ed to people
(5:51:52 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: she didnt want to debate it beyond the Church's
teachings though
(5:51:59 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: so i wonder what your response would be
(5:52:08 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: this is my message to her
(5:52:15 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: Hey when you have a chance I would like your op
inion on something, being my only Catholic friend who seems to be well informed
about Catholic doctrine and teachings
(5:52:51 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: I was thinking about the Church's teachings on
gay marriage and homosexuals, which is that homosexual acts are sinful, so homos
exuals are called to refrain from them their entire life, because they can't get
married like heterosexuals can in the Church. So basically that means they eith
er have to live like priests their entire lives (which I don't know if any homos
exual person ever has), never having any sexual activity, even with a person the
y love unconditionally, or they have to live a sinful life and greatly increase
their chances of going to hell, simply because they were born homosexual.
(5:53:06 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: There is no distinction in the Bible between ho
mosexual acts or lifestyles that are freely chosen for immoral reasons, like in
Sodom, and homosexual desires and mindsets that a person is born with and is thu
s not freely chosen, so I am more confused about this issue than any issue of mo
rality and Catholic doctrine I have thought about before.
(5:53:26 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: What do you think? Do you think it is possible
for any homosexual person to live their entire lives without having sex? Certain
ly it isn't possible for the majority of them, as shown in the sociological data
. It almost seems like a curse to live without ever having sex unless you are a
clergy member, especially if you meet someone you love unconditionally. I read o
n Catholic Answers that homosexuality can be viewed as just another consequence
of Original Sin, but that seems a very unfair and insensitive attitude toward ho
mosexuals who were born that way without any say in the matter.
Do you think the Church will ever evolve to the point of changing it's position
on homosexual marriage or acts? I'm really stumped lol. You can't say they can j
ust choose to become attracted to the opposite sex either ;>)
(5:54:11 PM) Chris Antenucci: pretty straightforward to me if u understand the c
hurch's teaching on it
(5:54:57 PM) Chris Antenucci: any homosexual act is a sin, period. but that doe
snt mean a gay man who does that is going to hell as long as he repents. but th
e church will never change it's position on this because homosexual acts are gra
vely immoral
(5:55:24 PM) Chris Antenucci: so yea, they do have to live like priests in terms
of their sexual activity
(5:55:30 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: her response
(5:55:34 PM) Jonathan Antenucci:
I'll reply later. :-)
(5:55:51 PM) Chris Antenucci: yea that was way too much for her
(5:56:03 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: lol that was the first part
(5:56:08 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: she then replied
(5:56:13 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: Hmmm.. that is a very hard question. I also hav
e a lot of gay friends. You've said it already, according to the doctrines, you
should lead a life of celibacy if you are homosexual.
As for if they are going straigt to hell or not, but my say for this matter for
now is that they really have to lead a life of celibacy. I know a few people who
are homksexual yet single and is actively serving the Lord, But I'm not sure if
you know, they are really living a life of celibacy but I'm quite sure they are
.
I don't think rhat the church will ever evolve and agree with the same sex marri
age os same sex intercourse, that will never happen I think. Id it will, I'm alr
eady dead by that time. Lemme get back to you with this one. I have a lot of peo
ple to ask and let me also study your question more and maybe give Bible excerpt
s that might support my own opinion and the things I'd be getting from some spi
ritual advisors and brothers and sisters from the community.
And thank you for this, you made me remember that I was supposed to enrol for a
3 month course about the Bible.
(5:56:59 PM) Chris Antenucci: basically what i said, i agree with her
(5:57:23 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: she actually took the time to ask a few of her
Catholic friends who actively practice their faith
(5:57:27 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: Copy-pasted from my friend's answer to your que
stions: He studied in a seminary and an active speaker for Catholics.
//There is no distinction in the Bible between homosexual acts or lifestyles tha
t are freely chosen for immoral reasons, like in Sodom, and homosexual desires a
nd mindsets that a person is born with and is thus not freely chosen,//
There is no scientific basis to belief that homosexuality is something you're bo
rn with. It's a trap believing that this is true, so they could all argue that t
heir homosexuality is part of who they are and so they really have to be themsel
ves.
//Do you think the Church will ever evolve to the point of changing it's positio
n on homosexual marriage or acts?//
no, because God has manifested his ways through natural law and this homosexual
acts go against what is natural. The Church cannot change natural law.
The point here is to not to accept that homosexuality is inborn.
(6:02:57 PM) Chris Antenucci: her friend is dead wrong for several things
(6:03:24 PM) Chris Antenucci: there is science to back up the belief that people
are born gay
(6:03:47 PM) Chris Antenucci: environmental factors are part of it too, but epig
enetics is the biggest one
(6:04:19 PM) Chris Antenucci: if it was totally a social thing there would be no
gay animals in nature, and there are
(6:04:29 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: that's what i was saying earlier
(6:04:58 PM) Chris Antenucci: but they're also gay because of epigenetics, not p
ure genetics
(6:05:51 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: yea so i was in a zone between her position and
the position of total confusion
(6:06:14 PM) Jonathan Antenucci is offering to send file marie's convo with her
catholic friend (2).txt
(6:06:24 PM) Starting transfer of marie's convo with her catholic friend (2).txt
from Jonathan Antenucci
(6:06:25 PM) Transfer of file marie's convo with her catholic friend (2).txt com
plete
(6:06:26 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: this is the convo she sent me with her catholic
friend
(6:08:04 PM) Chris Antenucci: her friend is clueless about the science behind ho
mosexuality, which isn't so bad, most people are cause they haven't studied it
(6:08:30 PM) Chris Antenucci: but u have to if u wanna clearly explain the churc
h's position on it, cause the church agrees with the science implicitly in it's
position
(6:08:54 PM) Chris Antenucci: otherwise it wouldn't make the distinction between
homosexuality and homosexual acts
(6:09:36 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: yea
(6:09:40 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: my response to that
(6:09:59 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: I have a lot of thoughts about your convo with
your friend, so I will get back to you on it when I have more time. Thanks for l
ooking for an answer to the question for me and also for yourself :-)
For now I will give you a few ideas to ponder about this. First, the Catholic Ch
urch hasn't always been right when it comes to science. The only example I can t
hink of now is when The Church opposed Galileo's discovery that the sun was the
center of the solar system rather than the Earth as formerly believed. However i
t turned out the Church was wrong about that issue, and there have been other ex
amples as well.
What is important to remember is that the Church has never been wrong on matters
of faith and dogma :-)
I haven't made my mind up yet as to whether hoimosexuality is inborn or not, but
there is some evidence it is. My brother has studied this issue a lot more than
me and believes it is inborn. I think a good question to ask though is "Even if
there isn't enough evidence yet to conclusively say it is inborn, what will the
Church's position be if enough evidence is found to prove it is inborn and can'
t be changed eventually?"
Thanks for asking your friend about the issue for me and also for yourself :-)
(6:12:44 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: her last response on the subject
(6:12:47 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: You are welcome. We are entitled to our own opi
nion and most of the brothers and sisters I have in the community also told me t
he same thing and views. We can believe what we want to belueve. :-)
(6:13:27 PM) Chris Antenucci: more than you'll get from most people
(6:13:46 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: she didnt want to debate the science, which I u
nderstood
(6:14:22 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: but i still am confused about it
(6:14:51 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: because it seems unfair for gay people to be de
prived of sex their entire lives just because of how they were born
(6:16:22 PM) Chris Antenucci: it seems unfair that they were born gay, but they
were, and there's no answer as to why God allows it, but He does
(6:17:10 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i know if i was gay i couldnt go my entire life
without having sex
(6:18:20 PM) Chris Antenucci: well for lesbians they dont even have the organs t
o be able to have sex with each other. they can make up for that in various way
s but it's anything but real sex
(6:18:35 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: when i say sex i mean any sexual act
(6:19:15 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: it's like being forced to live a celibate life
like a priest but without the matching calling to live that way
(6:20:28 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: but she made me rethink my position on the issu
e
(6:20:47 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: although for the opposite reason she provided l
ol
(6:21:02 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: she said it isnt inborn but it is
(6:21:23 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: but i do think gay people can change their brai
ns so that they become heterosexual
(6:21:31 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: not all, but some
(6:24:09 PM) Chris Antenucci: i dont think there's ever been an example of a gay
person who knew they were gay and came out and then become straight
(6:24:17 PM) Chris Antenucci: cause it's not possible
(6:24:57 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: this girl's friend said his ministry helped man
y gay people become straight
(6:25:23 PM) Chris Antenucci: yea there's some of those in the US too, i always
thought that was bs
(6:25:38 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i dont think this guy would lie
(6:25:56 PM) Chris Antenucci: that was the whole controversy with bachmann's hus
band, he runs one of those "converstion therapy" centers
(6:26:11 PM) Chris Antenucci: i actually think it's pretty offensive to gays
(6:26:12 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i never studied the issue, but i believe it is
possible
(6:26:33 PM) Chris Antenucci: not intentionally so, but it is
(6:26:36 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: if you dont want to live a sinful life all your
life why not do it?
(6:28:10 PM) Chris Antenucci: cause u can't change ur sexual orientation, and on
ce u reach a certain age it's not just ur sexual identity, it's a big part of ur
entire identity and u dont wanna change it becuase you've spent years learning
how to accept who u are, and for someone to just come along and tell u u can com
pletely change yourself if u just get "therapy" is pretty offensive
(6:28:48 PM) Chris Antenucci: and im the furthest thing from a gay rights activi
st, but i still believe that
(6:29:12 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: what about for the gays who cant accept their i
dentity?
(6:29:28 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: and/or can't control their sexual urges
(6:29:58 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: st paul always said for men who cant control th
eir sexual urges to get married
(6:30:07 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: but there is no equivalent for gay people
(6:31:37 PM) Chris Antenucci: there is, civil unions
(6:32:21 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i mean that would allow them to have sex that i
sn't sinful
(6:32:50 PM) Chris Antenucci: right, and that's what i said before about it's so
mething they have to struggle with their entire life
(6:33:04 PM) Chris Antenucci: i liken homosexuality to alcoholism and even pedop
hilia. Obviously i dont equate gays with pedophiles, but im comparing their con
ditions, which are similar in the sense that both are unnatural and something th
ey have a predisposition towards and have to actively struggle against their ent
ire lives. So of course they're gonna slip up because they're human, what matte
rs is that they try to avoid those behaviors. It's similar to an alcoholic as w
ell. It's not wrong to have the tempation to drink all the time, it's only wron
g to give into it. People have genes that make them alcoholics and they can't c
hange that, so they dont bear any guilt for being who they are, and even for fai
ling for long periods of time, as long as they make the effort at some point to
overcome that tendency and never act on it
(6:34:01 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: except homosexual acts are mortal sins, while g
etting drunk is barely a venial sin
(6:34:33 PM) Chris Antenucci: right, it's not an exact comparison, nothing is wh
en it comes to homosexuality, the degree is obviously very diff
(6:34:57 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i dont think there is any comparable condition
(6:35:24 PM) Chris Antenucci: i only use the other conditions to make the points
i made
(6:36:26 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: if i was gay i would probably try my best to be
come straight
(6:36:54 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: since i wouldnt want to go my entire life witho
ut sex and most likely romance too for that reason
(6:37:48 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: at first when the Filipino girl's friend said g
ay people should be willing to change because life is about change i thought it
was an ignorant statement
(6:37:55 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: but reading it now i agree
(6:38:34 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: it sounds offensive on its surface, but beyond
that i believe it is true
(6:39:49 PM) Chris Antenucci: it's totally ignorant, not offensive cause he's we
ll-meaning, but still ignorant
(6:40:47 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i think it is actually perfectly in line with C
hurch teaching
(6:41:13 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: if you are born with a disordered tendency, you
should be willing to correct it as soon as you are aware of it
(6:42:54 PM) Chris Antenucci: except it's not possible to correct it, and u shou
ldn't want to if that's who u are because God made u that way for a reason. Wan
ting to change ur sexual identity would be equal to that person saying there's s
omething wrong with them fundamentally and they shouldn't be who they are, which
will destroy them psychologically for life
(6:43:40 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i think a good analogy would be someone like Ro
bert kennedy jr
(6:44:08 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: a man who battled in his words "just demons" hi
s entire life and contiually failed
(6:44:12 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: lust
(6:44:39 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: he was born that way, but he should still try t
o change and resist the temptation to act on that disordred tendency
(6:44:44 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: so it is with gays
(6:45:53 PM) Chris Antenucci: i agree, they should resist the temptation to act,
that's diff than changing their orientation
(6:46:23 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: the best way to resist it is to change their pr
eference so they dont have to resist it
(6:47:52 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i dont know if any gay person in human history
has gone their entire life without having homosexual sex of some type
(6:48:02 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: maybe a few
(6:49:49 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i might go for a walk
(6:49:54 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: you able to go?
(6:50:23 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: also if you are able to throw the tennis ball l
et me know
(6:50:28 PM) Jonathan Antenucci: i'm bored of walking
(6:52:07 PM) Chris Antenucci: im debating whether i can walk again, i already jo
gged earlier, but my cortisol didnt go down a bit
(6:55:44 PM) Chris Antenucci: it's like saying what's a pedophile? u can say it
's technically someone who is attracted to young boys and girls, but u can't bla
me a middle aged man for that attraction cause he's obviously mentally disturbed
and couldn't control the development of his brain that led to that, prob from v
ery traumatic events and almost always sexual abuse as a child. But that man on
ly becomes guilty when he acts on that disordered attraction. likewise, a gay m
an only becomes guilty of sin when he acts on his disordered attraction to other
men.
(6:55:53 PM) Chris Antenucci: i think a pretty simple rebuttal would be asking t
he reverse question: can a straight man become gay? of course not, he was born
straight. But also, he doesn't wanna become gay because all his life he's been
attracted to women and that's built into his identity, and if someone told him
all of a sudden that was wrong and sinful just to be attracted to women and he n
eeds to change, he would be offended by that, and rightly so, because he had no
say over that attraction. Telling gays they can become straight makes no sense
because they didnt choose to be gay in the first place, so they would have no re
ason to think they should change since that would mean the person they were born
as and are shouldn't exist, which is wrong. They shouldn't try to change what
God made, disordered though it is. God gave them that cross and struggle for a
reason, and trying to change into a straight man would be trying to escape it.