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Thu May 29, 2014 12:49 pm CPT1911
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Familiar Face
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Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
I haven't seen much discussion of 4-wheel locks in this forum so I thought
you might find a 4-wheel post interesting.
S&G 6731 4-Wheel Group 2
Design: The 4-wheelers I have been working with are both S&G 6731's. This
is simply their 6730 with an additional wheel stuffed in there. I think that
there is something "cooler" about a 4-wheel lock that goes beyond just
being "different" from what I am used to. I am not an expert in lock history,
but it seems that the 4 and even 5-wheel locks harken back to safes 100+
years ago. The difference between the 4-wheel and 3-wheel is immediately
noticeable by the increased thickness of the lock body. The back is
significantly thicker and adds the volume required to make room for the
additional wheel.
A 3-wheel 6730 (left) vs. 4-wheel 6731 (right)
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Thick stack! (left). The 4-wheel's thicker back makes room for the extra
wheel (right)
Security: Because of the increased number of spins (and it can get a little
confusing!), I initially questioned the value of a 4-wheel Group 2 versus a 3-
wheel 2M or Group 1 in today's market. Why sell a 4-wheel Group 2 when a
3-wheel 2M or Group 1 is much harder to manipulate open? I assume it is
because of the threat of the autodialer. While a 3-wheel lock theoretically
has 1 million possibilities, a 4-wheel theoretically has 100 MILLION
possibilities! So besides the cool factor of the 4-wheel, it clearly offers
significantly greater resistance to the autodialer.
Dialing Sequence: The 6731 dialing sequence is 5R, 4L, 3R, 2L, right to
drop in. After the first wheel is set, you can basically think of it like a regular
3-wheel lock. The 4-wheel is GREAT for training you to park wheels and keep
track of things in your head. For me, this is the most enjoyable aspect. It
gets particularly tricky when you start parking multiple wheels in one
direction. Imagine the following sequence: R11- L35 - L22 - L46. Lot's of
extra dialing!
Strategy: I have found that my 4-wheel locks are more consistent about
giving up more than one gate on a single AWx spin. Whereas I have very few
3-wheel locks that will read two gates on one graph, the 4-wheels
consistently read two, even after many combo trials. As you will see
momentarily, this one actually read all 4-wheels in two graphs! No brute
force necessary! That's never happened before, and it made it an even
cooler open that I am excited to share! On that point, if ever there was a
time when it is better NOT to brute force the first wheel, this is it! Thank your
lucky stars if you can find W1 in your graphing, because brute forcing wheel
one = wrist pain. One other point on finding the correct wheel for each gate:
Hi/Low testing has worked MUCH more consistently for me on the 4-wheel
locks than the 3-wheelers. I have a few theories on why, but they are just
theories. The good news is this seems to be a pretty consistent rule on the
4-wheel. This one was opened without any complex wheel isolation work.
Note: Everyone knows I hate graphing, but recently I've run accross locks that I
simply cannot keep track of in my head. That got me looking for a better way to
graph. Anyway, I've started using Excel and letting it do the work for me. It also
makes it much easier to make changes, fix things, etc. Hope you guys don't mind the
graph screenshots! I also don't have Oldfast's crazy neat handwriting!
Search 1: AWL
Purpose: Find initial gate indication(s)
I chose an AWL approach for this lock. I had just mounted it and this was my
first attempt at manipulating this particular S&G 6731. I was excited to see if
it behaved like the other S&G 6731 in my collection.
I was very pleased by this first graph. It was very clear that I had a gate at
L46 and L22. The other drop-offs seemed like they might indicate a gate,
but for now, I was happy to do a Hi/Low for these first two indications and
hopefully move forward with two confirmed gates.
4-wheel Hi/Lows are fun. Like I said, you get good at keeping track of the
number of spins you've completed and where the gates are parked.
Unmistakable, text book indication for W4 at L46. LOVE doing Hi/Lows on the
4-wheel! Now for L22...
Again, a clean result for W3 at L22. I converted this to R20.5 as it will be
dialed right when testing combos.
So Far: Rx - Lx - R20.5 - L46
Search 2: W1 & W2 LA, W3 R20.5, W4 L46
Purpose: Find a gate on W1, W2, or both
There is a debate on whether it is better to move one wheel or two wheels
when starting the second graph. For example, on a 3-wheel lock, if you have
a known gate at W3=L50, some folks would go W1 & W2 RA, W3 L50, others
would park W1 at L50 and search W2 by itself. On the one hand, parking W1
removes the additional variable that it adds to your readings, and ensures
that any gate you find will belong to W2. On the other hand, it is possible
that W1 should read next, or creates a large shadow at L50 that hides W2
anyway. Not sure if one is truly better than the other, but I typically start out
moving two wheels together. If I don't find anything, I park W1 at the lowest
point I found during that search, and search W2 again. Seems to work for
me. In this case, I moved W1 and W2 together and it paid off bigtime!
The only problem with this graph is that it appeared to have four gates
instead of two! I was pretty puzzled by this and was starting to question my
sanity. It was about 1AM at this point so I truly think I was seeing gates that
weren't there. I dunno. The good news is that the real gates were the most
prominent. I started out by testing L11.
Thu May 29, 2014 1:04 pm flywheel
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Familiar Face
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Thu May 29, 2014 1:14 pm shadowlock
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Fri May 30, 2014 7:36 am Daggers
This test suggested that L11 was on W1, but the other Hi/Lows were so
dramatic that I decided it would be better to focus on the L35 indication. I
wasted some time testing some trial combos using L25 and L62, but wasn't
getting anywhere. I decided to test L35 next.
BOOM! I didn't even do the Hi test because I knew I had my gate.
Almost there: Rx - L35 - R20.5 - L46
Normally, I would start bruteforcing if I had no other indications, but the
ghost gates on my second graph were beckoning too me. "Trevor," they
said in a strange, high-pitched voice that was coming from my cat, "do
some trial combinations...you might not need to brute force us..." I nodded
skeptically at that cat and began with L11 (R8) on W1.
OPEN: R8 - L35 - R20.5 - L46
Really pleased with this one. I've never had all the gates come out in the
graph. As you've noticed, I've started using a manifying glass with a
magnetic base and an LED light. It works wonders and I think it allows me to
pick up a lot more. Mine has a magnetic base so it can stick to a safe, but it
comes with the little metal clamp base which works perfectly on my lock
stands.
Hope you enjoyed this one, because I sure did! Take care, fellas.
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Thank god the first number was 8 and not 98, but then again you're hearing
voices telling you what to try.
Good job!
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Awesome post!...I really enjoyed it. Can't wait to be that skilled. Good job
buddy. Hey! I really like that excel graph. Looks like it makes the graph
easier to read.
Rick
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
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Fri May 30, 2014 9:19 am mercurial
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Fri May 30, 2014 12:16 pm CPT1911
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Fri May 30, 2014 12:33 pm Squelchtone
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Fri May 30, 2014 2:03 pm CPT1911
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Familiar Face
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Fri May 30, 2014 8:18 pm Oldfast
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Wow! Great post! Thank you for this! And great job on manipulating it too
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Great manipulation, well done & thanks for sharing!
My only 4 wheel lock is a big, heavy antique S&G roller bolt style, with a
gravity driven fence. It is well beyond my abilities at present. It has the most
subtle & mushy contact points I've ever come across, by a LONG way, and it
has 'corrugated' wheel edges - there are shallow grooves, about as wide as
the fence, all the way around each wheel.
I have recently relocated & it is packed away. I will post gut shots, after I get
a chance to unpack & clean the old beast.
On the subject of comparative security against autodiallers, I would agree
that a 4 wheel Group 2 lock would be seen as more secure than a 3 wheel
Group 1 lock - at least in the early days of autodialler technology becoming
available.
However, the new generation of autodiallers, such as the Softdrill, would
render a 4 wheel Group 2 lock little more secure than a 3 wheel version of
the same lock. Perhaps the fairly recently designed Group 2M locks,
specifically the LaGard & the S&G are at least in part a direct response to
this threat? The Group 2M locks would force the Softdrill to resort to a brute
force search of the wheel pack.
For those who haven't heard of it, the Softdrill is an 'intelligent' autodialler,
that manipulates safe locks by using the same principles that people use,
only much faster (than *most* people, Oldfast notwithstanding!).
...Mark
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Hi Mercurial,
Great response, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I saw a video of the
softdrill in operation once, although I don't remember where. You are right--it
mostly follows the same principles that we do in manipulation, although I
believe it carefully chooses the lowest possible point to park wheels not
being tested. Very interesting!
Drag that old S&G 4-wheel out and open it for us!
Trevor
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Excellent post as always, very nicely done!
How do you make those very nice graphs on the computer? That can't be
done in Excel can it?!
congrats on the open,
Squelchtone
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Squelchtone wrote:
How do you make those very nice graphs on the computer? That
can't be done in Excel can it?!
Hi Squelch! Yessir, all done in Excel. PM me if you want the source file. Same
goes for anyone else!
You have to make minor adjustments each time you use it, but the shell is
there for you if you want it.
Trevor
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
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Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:56 am femurat
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Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:24 am Mikeh727
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Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:29 am mercurial
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Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:36 pm CPT1911
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OUTSTANDING! Absolutely LOVE the way you laid it out. BEAUTIFUL pics &
graphs, really.
I was able to follow along as if I were right beside you. Very exciting. Stellar
spinnin' my friend
And I gotta say... I'm a bit jealous! I haven't spun a 4-wheel lock yet.
Although, I once went 4-wheelin'
on a 3-wheeler by mistake, HA! But that's about it. I look forward to it though
& it's really nice to gain
some of your insight and experience for whenever I do finally get myself a
couple of em'. Thanks!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
Well done Trevor! I have carefully read your post and enjoyed it very much.
As Oldfast said, it was like seeing you spinning
About your technique, I also like to move all wheels together at first, and
then park the first indicating one at its gate and move the other two (or
three) around.
If wheel #2 indicates first, then I may check wheel #1 alone and park wheel
#2 at his known gate and leave wheel #3 (and #4) there too. The reason is
it's a lot faster dialing this way, I'm not afraid of hi-low tests.
Cheers
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
WOW Trevor, Great work! And the write up is excellent...very informative and
entertaining to read all at the same time. I've never played with a four
wheeler before, and this is motivating me to try and get my hands on one. I
love the graphing with excel too. I assume that cuts down on the time it
takes to graph? I'll have to send a PM to get the source file. Thanks for
making it available.
And thanks for posting the opening...very cool and interesting!
-Mike
I have an amazing grasp of the obvious. Beyond that, not so much.
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
image.jpg
Does this 4 wheel lock use indirect drive?
Looking at the picture of the 6730 back to back with the 6731, showing the
difference in thickness, the dials seem to be located in the same position
relative to the lock casing, so I would assume the cams of both are directly
driven by the dial & spindle assembly. All 6700 series locks I have come
across have been direct drive.
However, on closer inspection of one of the gut shots, I can see two
intermeshing gears, one under the wheel pack & of similar diameter to the
wheels, and another linked to it towards the left.
What are these cogs/gears?
...Mark
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)
mercurial wrote:
However, on closer inspection of one of the gut shots, I can see two
intermeshing gears, one under the wheel pack & of similar diameter
to the wheels, and another linked to it towards the left.
What are these cogs/gears?
Hi Mercurial. Current production 6730, 6731, 6630, and 6631 (others
maybe) use S&G's torque adjuster to maintain wheel pack tension. What
you are seeing is the edge of the geared plate that rests beneath the wheel
pack. A small gear to the left (not visible) can be turned with an allen wrench
to adjust wheel pack tension. It's kind of an odd device--you sort of have to
see it to visualize how it works. Fundamentally, it replaces the tension
washer you would find on 6741s and older 6700 series. Locks equipped with
the torque adjuster can be adjusted to run with very minimal dial friction and
dialed very quickly. S&G has a spec for this adjustment, however, which I
think is measured in inch-ounces LOL. Pretty lightly torqued, to say the
least.
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