1

00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:10,960

Embryology in the Quran
2
00:00:12,260 --> 00:00:17,880
Since Keith Moore spoke on the subject of embryology in the Quran in the 1980's
3
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,440
Islamic proselytisers have claimed
4
00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,040
the Quran contains miraculous information on the subject of embryology
5
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,400
that could not possibly have been known to humanity in the 7th century
6
00:00:30,380 --> 00:00:34,700
In particular one verse which describes how bones form before flesh
7
00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:38,180
has been touted as an example of miraculous information
8
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,280
The Quran's description of human development in the womb
9
00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,500
has become something of a revived subject
10
00:00:44,500 --> 00:00:51,160
since the biologist PZ Myers told iERA (a UK based Islamic proselytising group)
11
00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:55,220
that they had just proved the Quran to be scientifically incorrect
12
00:00:55,220 --> 00:00:59,200
in claiming that it describes bones forming formed before the flesh
13
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,440
and that bones and flesh actually form simultaneously from Mesenchyme
14
00:01:04,860 --> 00:01:07,740
Of course the Quran cannot possibly be wrong
15
00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:10,940
only our understanding of the words can be in error
16
00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,220
Now, let us take a look at the information within the Quran
17
00:01:15,220 --> 00:01:18,640
and compare it to the information from Galenic medicine
18
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:26,220
Quran 23:13 "Then we placed him as a drop of seed in a safe lodging"
19
00:01:26,540 --> 00:01:32,060
This shows an early stage of embryonic development where the human is still a se
ed
20
00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:40,300
Galen says "The first (stage) is that in which is seen in both abortions and dis
sections
21
00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:42,660
"the form of the semen prevails"
22
00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,720
Quran 23:14 "Then we fashioned the drop a clot"
23
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,840
Galen continues "Now in the case of the semen, voided in the 6th day
24
00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,540
"it becomes filled with blood"
25
00:01:58,020 --> 00:02:03,800
The next part of the Quran says "then fashioned we the clot a little lump"
26
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:14,040
Galen goes on to say "after it has been filled with blood, heart brain and liver
are still unarticulated and unshaped"
27
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:20,860
The Quran follows by saying "then fashioned We the little lump, bones
28
00:02:20,860 --> 00:02:23,160
"then clothed the bones with flesh"
29
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,160
Galen immediately goes on to say
30
00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:31,980
"After nature has made outlines of all the organs and the substance of the semen
has been used up
31
00:02:31,980 --> 00:02:37,220
"thus it caused flesh to grown on and around all the bones"
32
00:02:37,580 --> 00:02:42,080
Here we see Galen's writings describe a fetus starting as semen
33
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:48,000
After 6 days it then fills with blood and the fetus starts to develop various bo
dily parts
34
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,460
but remains unformed
35
00:02:50,740 --> 00:02:57,240
Then flesh starts to grow on and around the bones before the fetus goes on to be
come fully formed
36
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,580
So, what is so miraculous about the information in the Quran?
37
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,880
Almost identical words were spoken by a man hundreds of years earlier
38
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,040
who didn't need to claim divine intervention for their origin
39
00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:17,680
Knowing that there is no point at which an embryo is a clot of blood
40
00:03:17,940 --> 00:03:21,560
Islamic apologists try to force the Quran to be accurate
41
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,000
by using the following claims,
42
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:30,140
despite knowing there are numerous tafsirs explaining how this is a clot of bloo
d
43
00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:32,360
Number 1
44
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,020
The Quran is merely saying the embryo looks like a clot of blood
45
00:03:37,580 --> 00:03:41,360
There is nothing miraculous about saying what something looks like
46
00:03:41,580 --> 00:03:45,480
These people used to kill and eat their animals themselves
47
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,180
it is not unimaginable that they sometimes discovered the animal had been pregna
nt
48
00:03:50,180 --> 00:03:53,760
and that the embryo looked like a clot of blood
49
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:55,240
Number 2
50
00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:01,500
The Quran describes the embryo looking like a leach, you need a microscope to se
e this
51
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,600
At no point does the Quran use the word "resembles" or "looks like"
52
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,400
before the word Alaqa
53
00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,360
Therefore the Quran would be saying that the embryo turns into a leach
54
00:04:13,580 --> 00:04:18,260
To claim this is the meaning of the Quran is to claim the Quran is imperfect
55
00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:22,820
because it could be improved by adding the word "resembles"
56
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:24,760
Number 3
57
00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:29,420
The Quran is describing the way the embryo clings to the uterus
58
00:04:29,820 --> 00:04:33,220
As with the Quran's vague stages of human development
59
00:04:33,220 --> 00:04:38,580
this too was explained in Greco-Roman medicine long before Muhammad was born
60
00:04:39,220 --> 00:04:46,060
Galen reports that the fetus is attached to the womb just like fruit to a tree
61
00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:48,400
Number 4
62
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,260
The Quran is describing the way the embryo lives off its mother's blood
63
00:04:53,860 --> 00:04:58,900
Yet again this alternative explanation was also described by Galen
64
00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:03,840
as he described how the offspring takes nutriment from the mother's blood
65
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:10,180
"Nutriment also comes through the Chorion, from the veins and arteries of the mo
ther"
66
00:05:11,260 --> 00:05:16,240
The fact that so many people claim different miraculous meanings for the same wo
rd "Alaqa"
67
00:05:16,380 --> 00:05:21,140
clearly shows that the meaning of this word is being inferred by the reader
68
00:05:21,140 --> 00:05:25,340
and then retrofit in an attempt to match reality
69
00:05:26,340 --> 00:05:30,560
Of course the latest revival of this entirely bogus miracle claim
70
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,540
has come about of a consequence of iERA ambushing the biologist and embryologist
71
00:05:35,540 --> 00:05:41,080
PZ Myers, at the world atheist convention in Dublin in 2011
72
00:05:41,380 --> 00:05:45,020
During this interview Adnan Rashid (iERA) asked PZ Myers
73
00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:48,220
Rashid: "Does Aristotle say that the bones comes first and then the flesh and th
e muscles?"
74
00:05:48,220 --> 00:05:49,700
Myers: "Is that what the Quran specifically says?"
75
00:05:49,700 --> 00:05:50,840
Rashid: "Absolutely!"
76
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,840
(Thus the Quran is a miracle!)
77
00:05:52,940 --> 00:05:57,660
at which point PZ Myers informed them that this is factually incorrect
78
00:05:57,660 --> 00:05:59,400
Myers: "You just demonstrated the Quran is wrong!
79
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,880
"These are forming simultaneously with each other"
80
00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:05,720
As expected, the apologetic machine is now in full motion
81
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,580
as the "clear" words of the Quran are examined closely in order to discern
82
00:06:10,580 --> 00:06:12,560
what they clearly said from the start
83
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:13,860
whatever that might be
84
00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:16,320
as long as it matches reality
85
00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:21,600
Lane's Lexicon uses this very verse of an example of when the word "fa"
86
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,540
is used to denote an absolute sequence
87
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:30,180
So it seems Adnan's original interpretation may have been correct after all
88
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:38,020
I currently see the miracle claim possibly morphing into one of the following "r
einterpretations"
89
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:44,100
1: The original miracle claim was correct, bones develop before flesh
90
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,740
I am not a biologist or an embryologist so I cannot comment on the science
91
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,200
but if this does turn out to be the case then the verse is not a miracle
92
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,880
because the text I quoted from Galen, from hundreds of years before the Quran,
93
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,960
also states that flesh grows on and around the bones
94
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,580
2: The Quran does not say "THEN we clothed the bones"
95
00:07:08,580 --> 00:07:11,680
but "AND we clothed the bones"
96
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,080
This certainly isn't a miracle
97
00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:19,900
as replacing the word "then" with "and" removes any indication of sequence
98
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,960
As a consequence, the verse would be saying nothing more than
99
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,840
"Bones have flesh around them"
100
00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:31,900
and it takes no more intelligence than a child to know that your bones are cloth
ed with flesh
101
00:07:31,900 --> 00:07:35,580
just as our flesh is clothed with man made fabrics
102
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,920
3: Our original understanding of the Quran was incorrect,
103
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:47,580
the bones and flesh form at the same time and then later the flesh attaches to t
he bones"
104
00:07:48,260 --> 00:07:54,460
The Quran's terse description of embryology does not say that the flesh moves on
to the bones
105
00:07:54,460 --> 00:07:59,400
Interpreting the words in this way is merely an extrapolation and an inference
106
00:08:00,060 --> 00:08:02,160
but again this is no miracle
107
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:08,040
The word used for clothed also means "To drape upon" or "to cover"
108
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:13,820
We do not need to invoke the divine in order to say that bones are covered by fl
esh
109
00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:18,640
and thus by definition, this does not match the criteria of a miracle
110
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,500
because there is a much more mundane explanation for this text
111
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,600
Thus, we do not need to invoke a supernatural power
112
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,520
The simple fact is that the words "clothed the bones with flesh"
113
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:37,080
is a valid way to rephrase the words written by Galen hundreds of years earlier
114
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,000
Galen: "Caused the flesh to grow on and around the bones"
115
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:48,360
The question "How did Muhammad miraculously only pick the Galenic teachings whic
h were correct
116
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,320
"and leave out his errors?"
117
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,940
Is often used by Islamic apologists
118
00:08:54,720 --> 00:09:00,040
That this counter-argument has no bearing on the fact that we have already prove
n
119
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,300
these verses are not a miracle
120
00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:04,240
is completely ignored
121
00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:10,080
In a very short piece of text the Quran says the same thing that Galen said
122
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,100
also in a very short piece of text
123
00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:15,240
and Galen was wrong!
124
00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:21,500
This miracle claim itself is an example of Muhammad copying incorrect informatio
n
125
00:09:21,860 --> 00:09:29,360
and an example of apologists reinterpreting the words to try to make them correc
t
126
00:09:29,660 --> 00:09:33,700
Semen does not turn into a blood clot or leach
127
00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:39,140
the sperm within the semen is a trigger for the woman's egg to start dividing
128
00:09:39,460 --> 00:09:45,000
If an all knowing being wanted to present us with a 20th century embryonic mirac
le
129
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,700
then why not mention the swimming thing within the semen?
130
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,980
Why not mention the tiny egg within the woman that is invisible to the naked eye
?
131
00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:05,620
and most importantly, why use words which look just like a paraphrasing of work
authored by a mere human hundreds of years earlier?
132
00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,200
There are indeed other examples within the Quran
133
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:15,000
of where its human author seems to have copied Greco-Roman medicine which was wr
ong
134
00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:19,680
In Sura al-Insaan verse 2 the Quran reads
135
00:10:19,940 --> 00:10:23,920
"Verily we created man from a drop of mingled semen"
136
00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:27,320
Ibn Abbas is reported to have described this as
137
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:33,140
Abbas: "That of a man being white and thick, and that of a woman being yellow an
d thin
138
00:10:33,140 --> 00:10:35,900
"thus progeny comes from both of them"
139
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:41,240
Al Jalalayn say "That is from the fluid of the man and the fluid of the woman
140
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,500
"that have mixed and blended"
141
00:10:43,980 --> 00:10:48,100
Ibn Kathir explains that various people reported
142
00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:53,040
"Amshaj" is the mixing of the man's fluid with the woman's fluid.
143
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:59,080
Islamic apologists will now try to claim that this verse itself is a miracle
144
00:10:59,260 --> 00:11:05,920
because it is saying that the fluid a man ejaculates is a mingled drop of semen
and sperm
145
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,960
but this argument is weak
146
00:11:09,020 --> 00:11:17,920
Of the material the male expels during sex it is only the sperm within the semen
which initiates the creation of the offspring
147
00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:22,520
So to claim the Quran is saying that humans are made from a mingled drop
148
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:27,320
of both sperm and semen would be to say the Quran is in error
149
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:34,320
Another common apologist approach is to claim that it is a male drop that mingle
s with the woman's egg
150
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:41,680
This is a huge leap of faith due to the fact that there is nowhere in the Quran
which mentions a woman's egg
151
00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:48,460
and perhaps not coincidentally, there is no mention of a female egg in Greek med
icine either
152
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,400
However, this apologist argument is also weak
153
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,900
because again it is only the sperm which meets the woman's egg and not the semen
154
00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:06,920
by no stretch of the imagination could the combination of a solid sperm and a so
lid egg be described as a drop of mingled fluid
155
00:12:07,340 --> 00:12:13,380
The explanation of this verse that makes the most sense is the one put forward i
n the Tafsirs and Hadiths
156
00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:18,940
where it is the fluid of the man meeting a woman's fluid that creates the offspr
ing
157
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:25,540
According to this Fatwa on the signs of puberty the discharge of a woman that is
expelled during sex
158
00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:28,260
is described as a thin yellow fluid
159
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:34,400
The following hadith details Muhammad explaining how the resemblence of an offsp
ring is determined by
160
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,580
which of the parents discharges first
161
00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:44,260
The next one elaborates further and specifies the fluid in question, which is di
scharged by the female,
162
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,440
is the fluid she would expect to see during a sexual dream
163
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,320
and is thin and yellow in appearance
164
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:59,460
It is likely that Muhammad had heard of Galen's semen theory that the male and f
emale sexual fluids mix together to form the fetus
165
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:05,680
(Contrary to Islamic apologist claims) Galen did not believe that the female sem
en was her menstrual blood
166
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:14,660
Galen: "The similarity of offspring to their parents arises through a source com
mon to both parents
167
00:13:14,660 --> 00:13:20,440
"but menstrual blood is not a source common to both male and female
168
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:26,840
"The similarity of offspring to parents is either through semen or through menst
rual blood
169
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:32,120
"but it is NOT through menstrual blood, therefore it is through semen"
170
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:38,380
Galen clearly thought that both male and female semen are produced during an org
asm
171
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:43,580
and that the woman's semen is visibly thinner than male semen
172
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:51,440
Galen: "When therefore the female produces semen at the same time as the male
173
00:13:51,460 --> 00:13:57,480
"the semen discharged through each of the two horns and carried to the middle of
the hollow of the uterus
174
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:02,500
"it coats the passages and at the same time reaches the male semen
175
00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:07,480
"it mixes with this semen and the membranes are entwined with each other...
176
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:13,120
"(The female semen) provides this service for the fetus and becomes, as it were,

177
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,640
"a kind of nutriment for the semen of the male
178
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,260
"for it is thinner than the male semen"
179
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,620
If there is any doubt that the discharge mentioned in the proceeding hadiths wer
e about vaginal lubricant
180
00:14:27,620 --> 00:14:35,020
then the following hadith linking a "wet dream" directly to this discharge shoul
d clear up the matter
181
00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:43,620
especially as it also identifies this discharge as being the same fluid which ma
kes her offspring resemble her
182
00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:50,680
Um Salaim said: "Oh Allah's apostle! Verily Allah is not shy of (telling you) th
e truth.
183
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,160
"Is it essential for a woman to take a bath after she has had a wet dream?
184
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,860
"He (Muhammad) said: 'Yes, if she notices discharge'
185
00:14:59,860 --> 00:15:05,760
"On that Um Salama laughed and said: 'Does a woman get a discharge?'
186
00:15:06,060 --> 00:15:11,680
"He (Muhammad) said 'How (else) then does her son resemble her (his mother)?'"
187
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,920
Quran 76:2 "Verily we created man from a drop of mingled semen
188
00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:28,140
Quran 86:6-7 "He was created from a fluid, ejected, emerging from between the ba
ckbone and the ribs"
189
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:35,920
As the tafsirs explain, the fluid is that which is emitted from between the back
bone of the man and the ribs of the woman
190
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,160
The problem with this is that again it mirrors Galen's erroneous mixing of (male
and female) fluids
191
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,380
Female fluid excretions do not form part of the embryo
192
00:15:47,060 --> 00:15:52,160
Apart from that, the part of the male which causes reproduction is the sperm
193
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,740
which is created below the penis
194
00:15:55,020 --> 00:16:01,320
To be correct the Quran would have to say that we are all created from what is w
ithin the fluid
195
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:12,060
[Medical meanings: "A Glossary of Word Origins] "Apparently there was confusion
in ancient times as to whether the testis or the kidney was the source of semen.
196
00:16:12,060 --> 00:16:19,340
"The Romans gave up and called the kidneys 'renes', from which we take our adjec
tive 'renal'"
197
00:16:20,060 --> 00:16:26,000
Either way you look at this verse it appears to be a copy of one of Galen's erro
neous writings
198
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,060
But how could Muhammad have known?
199
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,400
This of course is an argument from ignorance
200
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,480
1: I don't know the answer to X
201
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,460
2: Therefore I do know the answer to X
202
00:16:38,460 --> 00:16:40,380
3: And the answer is....
203
00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:43,500
4: [Insert an unfounded belief of your preference]
204
00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:47,380
It is also a completely irrelevant question
205
00:16:47,620 --> 00:16:55,140
The mere fact that other humans knew this information means that it was within t
he sphere of knowledge of mankind
206
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,940
What we do know is that an individual could have known this information
207
00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:04,220
whether we know how they came into possession of that information or not
208
00:17:04,780 --> 00:17:09,800
iERA have been announcing for a number of months that their "New Research"
209
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,340
into these verses of the Quran have not only proven to be correct but
210
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,540
probably not surprisingly, have turned out to be even more accurate than origina
lly thought
211
00:17:20,860 --> 00:17:26,040
It seems that Hamza Tzortzis (of iERA) has already started to release snippets o
n his website
212
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:30,960
One of these snippets attempts to disassociate Muhammad from Hellenistic medicin
e
213
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:38,140
by claiming that one of his companions, Harith Ibn Kalada, could not have learne
d Greek medicine at Jundishapur
214
00:17:38,140 --> 00:17:41,560
because no such medical academy existed
215
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,460
The following quote is from the website HamzaTzorztis.com
216
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:53,000
HAT: "Jundishapur was certainly a meeting place for Arab, Greek, Syriac and Jewi
sh intellectuals
217
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,580
"but there is no evidence that any medical academy existed there.
218
00:17:57,580 --> 00:18:02,920
"Only in the early 9th century did Arab-Islamic learned medicine take shape"
219
00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:13,000
The first obvious point to make here is that even if this argument did disprove
the notion that Harith Ibn Kalda learned Greek medicine from Jundishapur
220
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,980
It does not prove that he didn't learn it somewhere else
221
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:24,160
It also doesn't rule out the possibility that Muhammad heard some very basic emb
ryology concepts
222
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,660
from someone like Harith Ibn Kalda's adopted son, Al-Nazar
223
00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:33,800
who was Muhammad's cousin and also who allegedly travelled to increase his knowl
edge
224
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,980
and was a medical physician like his adopted father
225
00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:43,440
It doesn't rule out the possibility that Muhammad's doctor gave him a brief over
view one day
226
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,000
while they were discussing the apparent miracle of pregnancy
227
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:55,520
Or, that a friend told Muhammad what his doctor had told him during a trip to th
e doctor with his pregnant wife
228
00:18:55,820 --> 00:19:00,360
Putting forward a list of everyone to have ever come into contact with Muhammad
229
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,120
who either was a physician, had ever talked to a physician
230
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:08,820
or had ever talked to someone who had talked to a physician, and so on
231
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,460
Would not only be impossible, but would also be pointless
232
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,580
For the embryonic verses in the Quran to be considered a miracle
233
00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:26,200
we must concede that the ONLY way Muhammad could have come across such informati
on must have been via a divine entity
234
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:35,160
The book by Roy Porter, cited by iERA, is not the only one claiming that Jundish
apur was not a great medical academy
235
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,540
[The beginnings of western science] "We have no persuasive evidence for the exis
tence of a medical school
236
00:19:39,540 --> 00:19:42,140
"or a hospital at Jundishapur.
237
00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:46,760
"Although there seems to have been a theological school and perhaps an infirmary
"
238
00:19:47,060 --> 00:19:53,840
If there was an infirmary at Jundishapur, then it is still possible that an indi
vidual such as Harith Ibn Kalda
239
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,520
may have learned additional medical knowledge whilst working there
240
00:19:57,660 --> 00:20:01,600
But really, this is utterly unimportant
241
00:20:01,860 --> 00:20:10,360
[Lindberg - The beginnings of western science] "The story must not be oversimpli
fied to the point where the diffusion of Greek learning
242
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:17,200
"is viewed as hanging on the slender thread of Nestorian activity in the city of
Jundishapur
243
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:23,240
"Rather, we must see this as a widespread movement of cultural diffusion
244
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:30,040
"whereby the aristocracies of western and central Asia assimilated broadly and d
eeply
245
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,580
"and by a variety of mechanisms"
246
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:41,060
To assume that Jundishapur was THE crucial point from which Greek medicine was d
isseminated throughout the region is clearly an error
247
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:49,840
The diffusion of Greek medicine throughout this region, and the rest of the worl
d, was a slow but long process lasting many centuries
248
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:54,120
ensuring that it became part of cultures across the globe
249
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,900
But the book by Lindberg is not the only one that reaches this conclusion
250
00:21:00,140 --> 00:21:06,360
If only iERA had spent some time reading the book they cited, rather than simply
quote-mining it
251
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:12,940
they would have learned a whole lot more on the subject of dissemination of Gree
k medicine throughout history
252
00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:18,500
and they possibly would have realised their point about Harith Ibn Kalda was som
ewhat ...
253
00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:20,040
pointless!
254
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:27,380
Even though Greek medicine had not yet taken shape, as early as 1700 years befor
e Muhammad was born
255
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,900
the Greeks were already travelling as far as Egypt
256
00:21:31,980 --> 00:21:39,400
Greek medicine was an open system available to anyone to learn, which contribute
d to its development
257
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:46,220
By the 4th century BCE Aristotle had been appointed as teacher to Alexander The
Great
258
00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:53,760
Alexander The Great's conquests brought Hellenistic knowledge as far as Egypt, t
he Persian gulf, and Sicily
259
00:21:53,860 --> 00:21:57,120
and led to the creation of the library of Alexandria
260
00:21:57,340 --> 00:22:03,520
A large collection of medical documents attributed to Hippocrates were available
in the library of Alexandria
261
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,420
as early as 250BCE
262
00:22:06,940 --> 00:22:12,300
In the 1st century CE anatomy was being taught in the library of Alexandria
263
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,920
In approximately 145CE Galen himself studied at the library
264
00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:22,900
After Galen died, Greek medicine remained mostly unchanged
265
00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:29,880
By 324CE, Constantinople/Byzantine, was a Hellenistic safe haven
266
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,860
344CE Christian hospitals sprang up throughout the region
267
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:44,420
Leontius, bishop of Antioch from 344CE to 358CE, set up hostels in his see, arou
nd 360 of them
268
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:54,080
Pre 640CE it was still possible to learn Greek medicine and specifically Galenic
medicine in Alexandria
269
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,720
But the best has certainly been saved for last!
270
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:07,300
[Porter - Medical History of Humanity] "By 500CE in Alexandria there was not onl
y a syllabus of Hippocratic texts (which Galen followed)
271
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:14,280
"but an embryonic Galenic canon, which became known as "The Sixteen Books"
272
00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:18,260
"taught with commentaries and studied in a set order
273
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:26,680
"Alexandrian scholars also summarised the sixteen books for ease of memory"
274
00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:37,040
For over 1700 years Greek culture and knowledge had been infusing itself slowly
and thoroughly into the culture of the middle-East
275
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:45,680
Only 70 years before the birth of Muhammad, 16 books by Galen on the subject of
embryology
276
00:23:45,820 --> 00:23:55,880
had not only been canonised at the library of Alexandria, but they had also been
summarised by scholars in order to make them easier to commit to memory
277
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:06,120
Knowledge of Greek medicine, and in particular Galenic medicine, remained preval
ent throughout the region for many years after Muhammad's death
278
00:24:06,380 --> 00:24:16,160
During a concerted effort to collect written Greek medicine and translate it to
Arabic, by the 9th century it was STILL possible to find many of Galen's
279
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,680
writings throughout the Byzantine empire
280
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:25,920
This is most likely what Lindberg was referring to in his book [The beginnings o
f western science] when he remarked how Jundishapur
281
00:24:26,060 --> 00:24:31,240
was not the slender thread by which Greek medicine was spread
282
00:24:33,394 --> 00:24:34,394
www.HamzaTzortzis.com - FAIL
283
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,280
When reviewing the evidence presented
284
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:45,100
the question we should ask should not be 'How could Muhammad have known?' But ra
ther
285
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,580
How could Muhammad NOT have known?
286
00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:53,420
An all knowing entity that copies from the Greeks? Be rational!