Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990
AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)

REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS

APPOINTED TO ENQUIRE INTO THE
AFFAIRS OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN)
LIMITED

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

VOLUME [4]: APPENDIX X V ( 1 7 ) TO X V ( 2 9 )

 ISBN 0-7557-1355-9

© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (17) Mr Padraig Collery
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Padraig Collery.

a) Transcript of Evidence dated 6 June 2000.

b) Overview Document prepared by Padraig Collery.

c) Unheaded statement of memorandum a/c A/A30,29 January 1988.

d) Deposit account withdrawal form of 14 January 1991.

e) Schedule of names prepared by Padraig Collery.

f) Sample statements of'S' a/c in Ansbacher/Hamilton Ross.

g) Illustration by Padraig Collery of parallel Bureau Systems in Hamilton

Ross and Ansbacher Cayman Ltd.
Appendix XV (17) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. PADRAIG COLLERY

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 6TH JUNE 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
 PRESENT

The Inspectors: MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. PADRAIG COLLERY

Represented by: MR. JERRY SHEEHAN

SHEEHAN & CO

CLARE STREET

DUBLIN 2
 1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED ON TUESDAY, 6TH JUNE 2000 AS

2 FOLLOWS:

5 MR. ROWAN: Good morning once again,

6 Mr. Collery. Let me

7 introduce myself. I am Paul Rowan and my fellow

8 Inspector is Ms. Mackey. You will know that this is

9 not a court and nor is it a tribunal, it is an

10 interview, and if you wish to take counsel from your

11 solicitor, please ask us to stop and we will allow

12 you to do so. Similarly, if your solicitor wishes

13 to give you some guidance, if he asks us to stop, we

14 will do so to enable that to happen.

15

16 We are going to obtain a record of the interview

17 which will be transcribed after the interview, so I

18 would like to ask Ms. Cummins to administer the

19 oath.

20

21 MR. PADRAIG COLLERY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED

22 BY MR. ROWAN, AS FOLLOWS:

23

24

25 1 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Collery, just for the

26 purpose of the record, may

27 I refer to your statement which came from your

28 solicitor and to the overview document (Exhibit

29 1)where you explained early on in the document that

3
 1 you have had a substantial career in banking

2 starting in 1968 with Lloyds Bank in London, going

3 on from 1974 to 1989 to being a senior bank official

4 with Guinness & Mahon with particular

5 responsibilities for accounts and computer

6 operations, and from 1989 to the present, you are a

7 manager with Kindle Banking Systems, and that from

8 1976 to the present, you maintained a memorandum of

9 accounts in respect of Ansbacher Cayman and from

10 1994 to the present, you acted as liaison officers

11 for clients of Ansbacher Cayman and Hamilton Ross

12 Limited until 1995 and thereafter, at present, for

13 Hamilton Ross only. That is a summary of your

14 career?

15 A. That is correct. I suppose "the present" would

16 probably be a slight inaccuracy now in that

17 obviously for Ansbacher I have no connections

18 whatsoever with them and Hamilton Ross, that has

19 been almost all wound up, so I have no connections

20 with them either at this point in time but it would

21 be true to say up to 1995/96.

22 2 Q. Thank you for your clarification.

23 A. Right.

24 3 Q. When you were a bank official with Guinness & Mahon,

25 who were your ordinary bankers at that stage, who

26 did you bank with?

27 A. As a bank?

28 4 Q. Your personal banking activities?

29 A. My own personal bank, with Bank of Ireland, I think,

 1 for some time and then I changed my account, I can't

2 remember when, but to AIB, and Allied Irish Bank has

3 been my personal banker since that time.

4 5 Q. Thank you. When you decided to become involved with

5 the services of Ansbacher Cayman, did you take any

6 financial or taxation advice on whether that was an

7 appropriate thing to do from anyone?

8 A. No, I did not. As I recall, it was around the time

9 I was leaving Guinness & Mahon and I seem to recall

10 that it was at the suggestion of Mr. Traynor that I

11 should receive some remuneration for the services

12 that I was giving to him and that he would arrange

13 for funds to be put into an account in the then

14 Bureau system.

15 6 Q. I see, but the particular point I want to establish

16 is that you did not seek external advice from a firm

17 of accountants or tax advisors or anyone about any

18 aspect of it?

19 A. No I did not because I trusted Mr. Traynor in what

20 he was advising me.

21 7 Q. Thank you. You have a copy of your statement to

22 hand I take it (Exhibit 1)?

23 A. Of my own?

24 8 Q. Yes .

25 A. I do indeed, yes.

26 9 Q. On page 7, which is the schedule of your statement,

27 (Exhibit 1) you say that -- forgive me, I have some

28 pages on here. It is the schedule to your

29 statement?
 1 A. (Handed).

2 10 Q. You say that you opened account "A/A30" in 1986?

3 A. In or around that time, yes.

4 11 Q. And that lodgments came from fees earned?

5 A. That is correct in as much that I provided a

6 service, as stated, on many occasions to Mr. Traynor

7 and I believe that I used the word "fee" in that

8 context.

9 12 Q. Can I ask that you that pass over to page 47 of our

10 brief?

11 A. (Handed) Thank you.

12 13 Q. This is a copy of a ledger statement around December

13 1987 into January 1988 and can you please describe

14 what that document is (Exhibit 2)?

15 A. Yes, this is a copy of the ledger system or the

16 statements that were produced by the Bureau system

17 for A/A30 and the statement in front of us shows an

18 opening balance of £3,677.40 with two credits, one

19 on 13th January for £1,000 and one on 29th January

20 for £125,000.

21 14 Q. What are those credits?

22 A. You will see a repetition of those throughout the

23 subsequent statements, I think, of about £1,000 or

24 £750 at a later date, which in fact were the monthly

25 fee paid to me for the service which I was providing

26 to Mr. Traynor.

27 15 Q. So, in or around 1988, you continued to be an

28 employee of Guinness & Mahon?

29 A. I was an employee of Guinness & Mahon up until

 1 December 1989.

2 16 Q. Yes, and so that you would have been earning your

3 remuneration as an employee?

4 A. At Guinness & Mahon, that is correct.

5 17 Q. And in addition for the separate service you were

6 providing to Mr. Traynor, you were receiving a fee

7 of £1,000 and £125. What was the essential

8 difference between those two amounts and how were

9 they calculated?

10 A. I can't recall whether it was £125 on a weekly or a

11 monthly basis. May I refresh my memory on this

12 (Pause).

13

14 I really can't remember the distinction, it is quite

15 some stage back. Either it must be a separate

16 payment out of College or out of maybe Hamilton

17 Ross. There were two entities just making two

18 payments, I seem to recall. One was Ansbacher and

19 maybe one was Hamilton Ross and that was the two

20 payments coming in there.

21 18 Q. Surely Hamilton Ross did not exist in 1988?

22 A. That is why I used the word "College" prior to that,

23 College/Hamilton Ross.

24 19 Q. So that these were amounts that were credited

25 regularly to your personal deposit account?

26 A. That is correct.

27 20 Q. Were these amounts that were negotiated by you?

28 A. They were suggested by Mr. Traynor as an amount that

29 he wished to pay for the services that I offered to

 1 him.

3 May I clarify that even though I was working in

4 Guinness & Mahon at that particular time, of course,

5 Mr. Traynor had left Guinness & Mahon so that is

6 where that differentiation started to occur.

7 21 Q. Yes and, in essence, the work that you were doing

8 was being done for Mr. Traynor at a time different

9 from the work you were doing for Guinness & Mahon?

10 A. Most definitely yes, it was mostly on a Saturday

11 morning that I was doing the work for Mr. Traynor

12 outside my time of work when I was working in

13 Guinness & Mahon.

14 22 Q. (Pause). Mr. Collery, I am sorry for the delay.

15 A. That is quite okay.

16 23 Q. In your schedule to your statement (Exhibit 1) under

17 point number 2, you list the various aspects of your

18 involvement as a depositor via Guinness & Mahon, and

19 then at point number 3 you answer the question "No".

20

21 Now, point number 3 was in respect of the question

22 in our letter in connection with:

23 "The following is a service which the

company appears to have offered to
24 Irish residents, that company being
Irish Intercontinental Bank."
25

26 You say that you did not avail of any of those

27 services ?

28 A. From Irish Intercontinental Bank?

29 24 Q. Yes?
 1 A. I interpreted that to mean back-to-back loans or

2 that type of thing directly from Irish

3 Intercontinental Bank so I did not avail of any

4 services from Irish Intercontinental Bank. Maybe my

5 interpretation was misjudged.

6 25 Q. The questions which related to Guinness & Mahon were

7 the same questions which related to Irish

8 Intercontinental Bank, the difference being that, as

9 you will be aware, some people used or the services

10 were provided through Guinness & Mahon, others

11 provided through Irish Intercontinental Bank, and

12 I just wanted to obtain some clarification from you?

13 A. I would be pleased to give those to you.

14 26 Q. That you did indeed avail of services through Irish

15 Intercontinental Bank?

16 A. (Document handed).

17 27 Q. You can see that this is a deposit account

18 withdrawal and the heading is "Irish

19 Intercontinental Bank" and you can see it is a

20 withdrawal of £45,650 and been signed, I think, by

21 you. That is your signature?

22 A. Yes, indeed and I think we have referred, well maybe

23 not in this inquiry, I get confused about the

24 various questions that are asked of me, but this

25 £50,000 does not pertain or directly relate to me

26 personally.

27

28 I think if you view my statement of account, there

29 will not appear a debit of £50,000 on my own

9
 1 personal account. I think what this may have been,

2 as indeed there would be many other documents where,

3 on behalf of other clients within Ansbacher or

4 Hamilton Ross, I arranged for drawings to be

5 obtained through Irish Intercontinental Bank for

6 their benefit.

7 28 Q. But you did not yourself use Irish Intercontinental

8 Bank for withdrawal purposes?

9 A. For this particular one, no, but indeed for my own

10 personal use, as indeed for much smaller amounts,

11 yes I did.

12 29 Q. You did?

13 A. Yes .

14 30 Q. That was the clarification I was seeking because it

15 seemed that way looking at the documents but you had

16 answered the question "No"?

17 A. It was my misinterpretation, I apologise for that.

18 31 Q. You say in your schedule that periodically you

19 withdrew money through Mr. Traynor. Can you

20 describe what the process was if you wished to

21 withdraw money?

22 A. I would have made a phone call, or when I would have

23 personally seen him on Saturday morning, I would

24 indicate to him that I wished to withdraw £1,000 if

25 we were going on holidays, because the amounts, as

26 you will see from the statements, are relatively

27 small, and then he would arrange for that cash to be

28 available to me on the following, say, Saturday, and

29 left in my folder to collect. Then he would have

10
 1 processed the transaction, i.e. a letter would have

2 been written, as indeed for all the other clients,

3 to Irish Intercontinental Bank in the latter days

4 requesting a draft payable to the Bank of Ireland

5 and then that draft would have been paid into, say,

6 Amienans or Kentford and cashed in and withdrawn out

7 of that. So it followed the traditional process of

8 requesting a draft from Irish Intercontinental Bank

9 in Irish Pounds paid into another account and then

10 drawing out that cash.

11 32 Q. And the practical application of a withdrawal

12 request was carried out by Mr. Traynor?

13 A. During his lifetime, yes.

14 33 Q. We will come on to that at a later point?

15 A. Yes .

16 34 Q. So, in effect, as a deposit holder, you asked him to

17 withdraw some money, he made the arrangements and

18 then the funds were available to you in whatever way

19 you would ask for them?

20 A. That is indeed correct.

21 35 Q. So that in 1994 Mr. Traynor died?

22 A. Yes .

23 36 Q. But is it correct to say that you effected

24 withdrawals yourself before he died?

25 A. From time to time yes I did because if he was on

26 holidays, or if he was not available, clients at

27 that time would have contacted his secretary, Joan

28 Williams, and she sometimes would have contacted me

29 to say, "Look, Mr. X or Miss X require some funds.

 1 Mr. Traynor is not available. Can we arrange to

2 have those funds available?" and in those

3 circumstances, yes I would have instructed Miss

4 Williams to write the letters, "Please get a draft

5 payable for x amount of cash" as indeed the example

6 you have just done there, I believe, is such an

7 example.

8 37 Q. So you had a specific authority to instruct the

9 withdrawal of funds?

10 A. Yes, Mr. Traynor had delegated authority to me in

11 the event of somebody looking for funds when he was

12 not available, that I could write to Irish

13 Intercontinental Bank, request a draft, and then

14 give it to Miss Williams who in turn would pay it

15 into, I think it was the Bank of Ireland, and then

16 withdraw the cash for that individual.

17 38 Q. From what date approximately, Mr. Collery, were you

18 given that authority?

19 A. I would think it was quite early in the 1990s.

20 I think I was a signatory on most of the accounts

21 from quite early in the 1990s.

22 39 Q. What was the nature of the circumstances which

23 caused that arrangement to be put in place?

24 A. It was in the event of Mr. Traynor not being

25 available and one of the clients of Ansbacher and

26 latterly of Hamilton Ross wishing to make a

27 withdrawal from their account to facilitate that.

28 40 Q. So to enable you to have carried out those

29 responsibilities, you would have had to have a

12
 1 fairly good view of the arrangements as between

2 Ansbacher and individual clients?

3 A. Well, I knew of the arrangements, or obviously I

4 knew that there were transactions happening between

5 clients and Mr. Traynor from the very fact that I

6 was posting the transactions. You didn't have to be

7 much of a genius to work that one out and the system

8 was pretty straight forward and visible as you could

9 see it happening and the more or less delegated

10 authority was that if somebody came and wanted cash,

11 to facilitate them rather than have to wait until he

12 got back if he was away for some time.

13 41 Q. Would you agree with me though that there is perhaps

14 a difference in a banking environment between

15 someone who has front desk responsibility, if I may

16 put it that way, in terms of dealing with customers

17 directly, i.e. accepting lodgments and enabling

18 withdrawals on their behalf, and someone who has the

19 responsibility actually for making sure that the

20 records, the postings and so on are kept up-to-date,

21 because, in essence, where you have the authority to

22 effect withdrawals, you are straddling both of those

23 responsibilities.?

24 A. Yes, I accept that you are straddling both, but my

25 straddling was in exceptional circumstances, in the

26 event of Mr. Traynor not being available, and that

27 was, I hasten to add, very exceptional.

28 42 Q. So that in, I think it was, May 1994, Mr. Traynor

29 died?

13
 1 A. It was.

2 43 Q. Had that event been signalled in any way?

3 A. Not at all, it was very, very sudden. I know the

4 media have indicated otherwise but it was, I

5 believe, well I know that he was in the States and

6 indeed was planning to go back to the States later

7 in the year because his son was getting married

8 there and it was co-inciding with the World Cup in

9 the States at that particular time and he was an

10 avid soccer supporter so was looking forward very

11 much to that. He had to come back from the States,

12 had attended some board meeting and called me on

13 I think the Tuesday to say could I meet with him on

14 that Saturday and I said "of course" and then on

15 that Wednesday morning he was found dead in his bed,

16 so it was that sudden.

17 44 Q. So the fact that you had the delegated authority was

18 invaluable at that point?

19 A. It was, yes, although there were other people, as

20 you know, from the mandates who had similar

21 authorities to sign on the accounts. It was not

22 just to me alone.

23 45 Q. Who were the others?

24 A. John Collins, John Furze, Joan Williams and myself.

25 46 Q. Effectively of course the latter two were here in

26 Ireland?

27 A. Of course Mr. Traynor and myself, so there were

28 three in Ireland two in Cayman.

29 47 Q. Yes, after his death, two in Ireland and two in

 1 Cayman?

2 A. After his death, that is correct.

3 48 Q. Following Mr. Traynor' death, were there any changes

4 to the delegated authority regime put in place?

5 A. Yes there was. At what precise time I am not quite

6 sure. I asked Sam Field-Corbett to be a signatory

7 on the account as well and again for the very same

8 reason as I was there in the event of my not being

9 available and some people calling me and/or wanting

10 some funds very urgently, then he would be able to

11 facilitate them and I would do the tidy up

12 afterwards.

13 49 Q. I see. You have indicated to us that your deposit

14 account was built up from fees which you earned for

15 providing services to the company. In terms of

16 those fees, have you returned those fees to the

17 Revenue Commissioners?

18 A. Yes I have now.

19 50 Q. And that was done contemporaneously with those being

20 earned?

21 A. No they were done, i.e. made my return to the

22 Revenue in relation to those in 1997, the end of

23 1997.

24 51 Q. The question of the interest which on the documents

25 you have provided there was quarterly or half yearly

26 interest earned. Was that returned

27 contemporaneously to the Revenue?

28 A. No, it was returned in the full return of 1997.

29 52 Q. Thank you. Mr. Collery, did you have a trust of any

15
 1 kind through Ansbacher?

2 A. No, I didn't. I did not deem it necessary. My few

3 shillings didn't warrant the costly fees that a

4 trust would incur.

5 53 Q. Did you have a cash backed loan, back-to-back loan?

6 A. No I did not. (Document handed).

7 54 Q. This is a schedule of names and details of people

8 who appeared to have accounts in Ansbacher Cayman or

9 one of its related companies. Perhaps, Mr. Collery,

10 you might just tell us what that statement precisely

11 is?

12 A. Sorry, this page (Exhibit 4)?

13 55 Q. Yes?

14 A. This is one of a number of pages which I prepared

15 for you to assist you arising from the question that

16 the Honourable Judge asked me at a previous meeting

17 to, as far as possible, give him any details that

18 I had either in documentation form or I could

19 recollect for individuals and to indicate where the

20 accounts were held and if they were trust held for

21 those individuals to the best of my knowledge and

22 that I have endeavoured to do together with the

23 addresses for the individuals also.

24 56 Q. Midway down the page there is a Mr. D.P. Collery,

25 which I take it is your own entry?

26 A. It is indeed, yes.

27 57 Q. Underneath that, there is a Mrs. K. Collery. Can

28 you throw any light on that? Is that someone to

29 whom you are related?

16
 1 A. It is indeed, that is my mother's account.

2 58 Q. This is your mother's account?

3 A. It is, yes.

4 59 Q. I see. Do you know when this account was opened,

5 Mr. Collery?

6 A. Again I think it was initially with a small amount

7 in the early 1990s and then subsequently in 1995/96

8 additional funds were added to the account.

9 60 Q. Who is the beneficial owner of this account, Mr.

10 Collery?

11 A. My mother.

12 61 Q. Your mother is?

13 A. Yes .

14 62 Q. I see.

15 A. I am pleased to give you any assistance and records

16 on that. My mother lives in the West of Ireland and

17 she has been seriously ill for some months at the

18 beginning of this year but she is well again. If

19 there is any help you wish to have on that account,

20 I will be pleased to provide it to you.

21 63 Q. Would it be correct to assume that you have provided

22 her with assistance in terms of the operation of

23 that account?

24 A. That is indeed correct, yes.

25 64 Q. May I just ask what "K" stands for?

26 A. Kathleen.

27 65 Q. Thank you. Mr. Collery, in keeping with the way we

28 do things, we sometimes at this point have a little

29 break for a cup of tea or coffee and I propose to do

 1 that now and we shall provide some coffee, as before

2 for you.

3 A. I appreciate that, thank you.

4 66 Q. We will be about 10, perhaps at the most 15 minutes.

5 A. Very good.

7 A SHORT ADJOURNMENT

9 THE INTERVIEW RESUMED, AFTER THE SHORT ADJOURNMENT,

10 AS FOLLOWS:

11

12

13 MR. ROWAN: Mr. Collery, we will

14 continue. Ms. Mackey

15 would like to raise some matters with you.

16

17

18 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. PADRAIG COLLERY BY MR.

19 ROWAN

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

18
 1 MR. PADRAIG COLLERY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS.

2 MACKEY:

4 67 Q. MS MACKEY: Mr. Collery, I just want

5 to have a look at the

6 statements you sent us of the Account A/A30 so Ms.

7 Cummins will give you a copy of them in the order

8 that we have here so I can refer to them by the page

9 numbers?

10 A. If you leave them in the order, Mary, it would be

11 easier to take them across (Handed).

12 68 Q. Now, the earlier ones are very poor quality

13 photocopies, Mr. Collery, so I will not go through

14 those because we will give ourselves eye strain?

15 A. They are pretty all straightforward.

16 69 Q. There are specific things I want to ask you about

17 some of the latter ones that will clarify the

18 questions that I actually have.

19

20 To just get clear in my own mind your evidence this

21 morning, I understand that the monthly figures of

22 £750 and £125 represent fees?

23 A. They do indeed.

24 70 Q. And you also mentioned a figure of £1,000?

25 A. In the earlier days I think we were looking at

26 £1,000.
27 71 Q. Is the situation that it was just one figure in the

28 early days of £1,0000 and then it became two figures

29 of £750 and £250; is that what happened, or maybe

19
 1 you could direct me to where the £1,000 begins and

2 ends ?

3 A. I think it became £750 and £125.

4 72 Q. £125 I should say, not £250?

5 A. It reduced from £1,000 to £750 and the £125 appears

6 to have continued on.

7 73 Q. So the £125 ran simultaneously with the £1000?

8 A. It did indeed, yes and it goes up as far as -- let's

9 have a look and see.

10 74 Q. We can come to where it went up to in the end, I

11 will come to that, but why did the £1,000 reduce to

12 £750?

13 A. I don't know. I presume it was the volume of work.

14 You know, I was only coming in -- may I refer to the

15 documents ?

16 75 Q. Yes .

17 A. This is recollection but I think the facts will bear

18 out. The exact circumstances I can't quite recall,

19 it is such a long time ago, but around 1989/90, as

20 it would appear, it was reduced to £750. What was

21 happening around that time in my own personal life

22 was that I had moved from Guinness & Mahon and I had

23 gone to Kindle Banking Systems to work.

24 76 Q. Yes?

25 A. I believe that I would have indicated to Mr. Traynor

26 that starting off a new job, doing this task,

27 obviously was a real problem to me and that I would

28 not be able to give him the time that he might have

29 expected me to give to him. I do know in around

20
 1 that time, we can properly check this out, that £250

2 a month was paid to Miss Williams. So, I think what

3 used to happen was that Ansbacher continued to pay

4 the £1000 which they had previously done, but

5 instead of £1000 to myself, £750 came to myself and

6 £250 went to Miss Williams for the services she was

7 providing. I think we can check that on, say,

8 "A/A7".

9 77 Q. Right. Now, how much did you say to Miss Williams?

10 A. I think £250. That would be the balance of the

11 £1,000.

12 78 Q. So that was from the time you went to Kindle?

13 A. In around that time.

14 79 Q. So from the time you went to Kindle then, you only

15 spent Saturday mornings working for Mr. Traynor?

16 A. Even before that. The volume of work was reducing

17 quite considerably in any case.

18 80 Q. Right. Well, now, if I understand what you say

19 correctly, you say that at that time you would have

20 indicated to Mr. Traynor that because of taking up a

21 new job, which was understandable, you would not be

22 able to devote as much time to it, so to reflect

23 that the fees were reduced?

24 A. Not that they were reduced but Miss Williams was

25 going to do additional work.

26 81 Q. Your fees were reduced?

27 A. Yes .

28 82 Q. So that reflected the fact that the amount of work

29 you would be doing would be less because you could

21
 1 devote less time to it?

2 A. Correct.

3 83 Q. So how much time were you devoting before that?

4 A. I think the work was such that again it was

5 interspersed between my work and Guinness & Mahon.

6 It was not a confined period of work. I was doing

7 the work for him, meeting him during my working day.

8 When I went to Kindle, obviously I was not able to

9 meet him during the working day.

10 84 Q. So in fact what you said earlier this morning would

11 not be absolutely accurate, that when you were in

12 Guinness & Mahon the work you were doing for

13 Ansbacher was outside of the hours of Guinness &

14 Mahon. That wouldn't be totally correct?

15 A. No it was quite the opposite. It was within the

16 work of Guinness & Mahon. There were two stages of

17 my employment with Guinness & Mahon. I think what I

18 was referring to was the reimbursement whereby up

19 until 1986 and Mr. Traynor was there, it was seen as

20 part of my daily work because Guinness & Mahon, and

21 you will have to look up the records at that time,

22 Ansbacher Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was a

23 subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon. So it was seen as a

24 subsidiary so you were contributing as part of the

25 group in your daily work and then obviously with the

26 sale of Guinness Mahon to Ansbacher, that work was

27 seen as not being a part of the group as it were.

28 85 Q. Yes but you were still there at that stage?

29 A. That is where, in or around that time then I started

 1 getting the reimbursement from Cayman.

2 86 Q. Just give me roughly the year of that?

3 A. I think that happened around 1987/88.

4 87 Q. So that was when you began to be reimbursed?

5 A. In or around that time.

6 88 Q. But you were still working for Guinness & Mahon at

7 that stage?

8 A. Yes, but obviously I was trying to do less work

9 during my normal working day and more either working

10 late in the evenings or working

11 89 Q. But, as you said a moment ago, it would have

12 occurred during your ordinary working day that you

13 met with Mr. Traynor?

14 A. It would indeed, yes.

15 90 Q. So that when you finally left and went to Kindle,

16 the work naturally had to be done purely outside of

17 working hours?

18 A. Absolutely so.

19 91 Q. And therefore it became less?

20 A. It became less.

21 92 Q. Now again earlier this morning you were explaining

22 to Mr. Rowan the difference, as far as you could

23 recollect it, between the £750 and the £125 and you

24 said that they were two different entities and they

25 were either Hamilton Ross or College. It is clear

26 that they could not have been Hamilton Ross in the

27 earlier days because Hamilton Ross was not there.

28 What was your involvement with College?

29 A. College, as I explained previously, was parallel to

23
 1 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust and they ran parallel to

2 each other. If I may check this out, I will come

3 back and clarify this, or indeed -- I am trying --

4 it may have been College or it may have been a fee.

5 I would want to look at a statement of "S" account.

6 It may have been a fee that Mr. Traynor himself was

7 paying me of the £125 and therefore I would want to

8 see is there a debit going through there or it may

9 have been a deduction from the fee that he used to

10 get. That is just as I am thinking about the whole

11 thing.

12 93 Q. Right. Well, now, that gives rise to two questions.

13 First, of all, why would College be paying you a fee

14 and, secondly, why would Mr. Traynor be paying you a

15 fee separately?

16 A. I think, while I am thinking about it, it was a fee

17 that Mr. Traynor paid me.

18 94 Q. Why would Mr. Traynor be paying you?

19 A. Because I was doing work for him.

20 95 Q. When you were doing Ansbacher he was paying you?

21 A. Well, Mr. Traynor and Ansbacher, it is hard to

22 separate the two of them if you look at the picture

23 in the capacity that he operated in.

24 96 Q. I am just wondering what would you be doing

25 differently for him from what you were doing for

26 Ansbacher that would require a separate fee?

27 A. Other than I was doing him a favour personally in

28 providing the service for Ansbacher which he was a

29 beneficiary of.

24
 1 97 Q. A beneficiary in the sense?

2 A. In the sense that he was availing of services and

3 when he asked for something to be done, copy

4 statements, or whatever, that would have been a

5 personal service to him.

6 98 Q. In working for Ansbacher for which you were

7 receiving a fee anyway, Mr. Traynor would have seen

8 that as a personal service to him, would that be

9 correct?

10 A. That would be a fair -- part and parcel of the whole

11 package as it were. He was a beneficiary of the

12 services.

13 99 Q. Now, however at the beginning you were not clear

14 whether, and you still, I think, are not totally

15 clear, that that is the case?

16 A. I am not totally clear.

17 100 Q. But you did say that it might have been College. I

18 wonder why you thought it might have been College.

19 Did you operate the Bureau system for College?

20 A. Yes I did.

21 101 Q. And was any arrangement made by College to pay you a

22 fee in the same way that Ansbacher did in relation

23 to that?

24 A. I can't recall. I think it is more likely on

25 reflection now, and I am trying to go back to those

26 particular days, I think it wasn't actually College,

27 I think it actually came from Mr. Traynor.

28 102 Q. But the fact is that you were doing work for

29 College?

25
 1 A. I was doing work for College, I was indeed, yes.

2 103 Q. Was that recognised in any way financially?

3 A. No, because I think, and again I am thinking of the

4 time span to put it into its proper context, that

5 College would have ceased to exist as an entity

6 around 1987/88. I think it was sold to Sovereign

7 Management or Credit Suisse in or around that time.

8 104 Q. Ceased to exist as a subsidiary of Guinness Mahon

9 you mean?

10 A. It did and any funds that were there either came

11 under the direct control of Sovereign or Credit

12 Suisse and therefore those became direct clients and

13 some funds I do know moved into Guinness & Mahon

14 Cayman Trust, some entities moved across.

15 105 Q. If we could just have a look at these statements,

16 Mr. Collery, and if we could go, first, to page 81

17 at the bottom right-hand corner there, and we are

18 into 1991 (Exhibit 5)?

19 A. Okay.

20 106 Q. Now, there are 3 lodgments there. Could you tell me

21 what they are? They do not seem to be the usual

22 £750 and £125. The first one is £881.78 and it is

23 lodged on 2nd January 1991?

24 A. (Pause) Yes. I can't, No, I don't recall what that

25 £881 was.

26 107 Q. Right. Can you recall what the next one, lodged on

27 the same date, £5,450 is? I beg your pardon, it is

28 not 2nd of the 1st, it is 31st December?

29 A. Yes, I am just referring across. In or around that

26
 1 time, Mr. Traynor had negotiated with Ansbacher that

2 obviously I had given them quite a bit of service

3 from 1978 up to that period and they made some sum

4 lump sum payments to me which is effectively a

5 gratuity for the service I had given in the past

6 because I had now split away from Guinness & Mahon

7 Group and they were payments that he had organised

8 for me.

9 108 Q. When you say "they were", are you speaking of the

10 two payments there?

11 A. I think the two were. The £881.78, I don't have any

12 recollection but those round amounts I believe are

13 two related.

14 109 Q. £5,450 and £6,875. They are quite specific amounts

15 for lump sums. How would they have been calculated?

16 It is not just a figure of £5,000 but £5,450?

17 A. I did not ask the man. He was saying that those

18 sums are available to you.

19 110 Q. Why would they be lodged three days apart instead of

20 in one sum?

21 A. I would have to, and, again, I can only surmise that

22 Mr. Traynor said, "Look, there has been x amount of

23 sums made available to you. I have arranged it and

24 here are the amounts that are due that you can

25 credit your account with". How he calculated that,

26 or how it was managed. I have no knowledge of.

27 111 Q. Your evidence to us this morning is that Mr. Traynor

28 explained to you that these sums were made available

29 to you by Ansbacher as lump sums in payment for your

27
 1 services to date?

2 A. That is as I understand it.

3 112 Q. As well as the regular fees?

4 A. As well as the regular fees and I think there was

5 one other payment, that is why I was looking through

6 that.

7 113 Q. We will be going through them all and we will

8 probably come to it?

9 A. Okay, fine.

10 114 Q. If we could look next then at page 90 Exhibit 6?

11 A. Yes .

12 115 Q. Here we have the £750 and £125 which you explained

13 to us both on 31st October 1991. It seemed to be at

14 the end of each month that the fee was paid?

15 A. Yes it was.

16 116 Q. But on 2nd October of that year we have a lodgment

17 of £1,000 in addition to those two, it appears?

18 A. Yes .

19 117 Q. What would that represent?

20 A. I have no recollection of what that is.

21 118 Q. No recollection. Do you recollect in general

22 because this may save us going through all of these

23 and asking you about each individual lodgement other

24 than the £750 and the £125. Do you recollect other

25 sums being lodged apart from your fees?

26 A. Yes. The one other sum, I think in general, was the

27 large amount in 1995, was it, £186,000 or something.

28 119 Q. We will come to that too, but in general were there

29 monies going into the account apart from either

28
 1 gratuities or fees?

2 A. No.

3 120 Q. Were you making lodgements in other words?

4 A. No, I think if you look through them.

5 121 Q. May we look at the specific one and stick with that?

6 A. Okay.

7 122 Q. You did not lodge money yourself is what I'm asking

8 you?

9 A. I didn't lodge money, no.

10 123 Q. You didn't ask Mr. Traynor to put money into the

11 account for you, you didn't pass him a cheque or

12 cash or transfers?

13 A. No, I didn't have the surplus funds to do that. I

14 had three young men who were --

15 124 Q. Can we take it that any money that appears there

16 appears either from Ansbacher from Mr. Traynor

17 himself or from perhaps College?

18 A. That is correct, yes.

19 125 Q. So if this sum of £1,000 on this particular occasion

20 is not part of your monthly fees for October, and

21 I think if we turn back to the previous page we

22 should see your monthly fee for October?

23 A. Correct.

24 126 Q. It is hard to see from the date whether that is

25 October or September?

26 A. I think it is September. Are we talking about page

27 89 (Exhibit 7).

28 127 Q. We are, yes. It is hard to see the date there.

29 A. I think that is 30th September.

 1 128 Q. So that was September?

2 A. Yes, that is right.

3 129 Q. And then we have your fees for October, 31st

4 October, on page 90 and we have this sum of £1,000

5 (Exhibit 6)?

6 A. That is correct.

7 130 Q. Is that sum then money that came from Ansbacher?

8 A. It would have come from Ansbacher or I would have

9 said an Ansbacher client or some fee over and above

10 what Mr. Traynor has arranged to pay to me, but it

11 certainly came within the offshore entities I would

12 have said.

13 131 Q. Right. When you say "an Ansbacher client", what do

14 you mean?

15 A. If there were some transfers or something that was

16 being done for the client within the Bureau system,

17 that if he charged a fee, Mr. Traynor, for cash

18 drawn or some services given to a customer, then

19 that may well have been a payment to them from them

20 rather.

21 132 Q. As a fee?

22 A. As a fee.

23 133 Q. But not in the payment to the bank, a payment to you

24 personally?

25 A. It would be a payment for Mr. Traynor which Mr.

26 Traynor has redirected in there.

27 134 Q. Why would he redirect it to your personal account?

28 A. Because if I had organised cash or something that

29 went down or had organised over time some services

30
 1 for him, then he would have deemed that that was a

2 fee due to me. I don't recollect.

3 135 Q. Used that to happen? Is that something that

4 happened?

5 A. No, because we will see this is only one payment

6 that is in there. It is an isolated case.

7 136 Q. I just wondered why you think it might be that

8 reason?

9 A. I am only giving that as an opinion that may have

10 happened, I don't know.

11 137 Q. So what you are saying is that it may have occurred

12 that a client may have been rendered some services

13 by Ansbacher for which Mr. Traynor would have

14 charged him a fee?

15 A. Correct.

16 138 Q. He would pay that fee to Mr. Traynor?

17 A. He would have charged the fee to the customer.

18 139 Q. Yes but the customer would have paid it to?

19 A. Mr. Traynor presumably and then Mr. Traynor, at his

20 discretion, would have said, "Yes, you have done

21 some work on this in arranging whatever services

22 that client got and here is £1,000 for doing that

23 work over and above your normal £750 and £125 a

24 month", or it may have been an additional fee that

25 Mr. Traynor just paid me. You must recall around

26 1991 there was a lot happening going on around that

27 period whereby funds were moving from Guinness &

28 Mahon to Irish Intercontinental Bank. Do you

29 remember all of that?

 1 140 Q. I do.

2 A. So there was a lot of work involved and a lot of

3 time taken up there.

4 141 Q. I just want to get clear in my mind. You are saying

5 that this may have happened but presumably it

6 happened at some stage or you would imagine that it

7 might have happened, would that be correct?

8 A. Absolutely.

9 142 Q. So there must have been on some occasion, it may not

10 have been this particular occasion, but there must

11 have been an occasion or occasions on which this

12 type of transaction that you have just described

13 happened where a fee was charged by Mr. Traynor to a

14 client who paid the fee to Mr. Traynor and Mr.

15 Traynor in his discretion, because of work you would

16 have done in relation to that client, passed it to

17 your account?

18 A. Account, yes.

19 143 Q. That would actually have happened at that time?

20 A. Yes .

21 144 Q. Whether on that occasion or some other, it was

22 something that happened?

23 A. Yes, and I think 1991 was the time there was a lot

24 of work going on there for various clients.

25 145 Q. So that may have been that or it may have been a fee

26 from Mr. Traynor himself in recognition of your

27 services ?

28 A. Yes .

29 146 Q. Can we look now at page 92 (Exhibit 8)?

 1 A. Yes .

2 147 Q. Again we are just 2 months later. The one we were

3 looking at was October. We are now looking at

4 December, and again we have the same three amounts.

5 We have the £750 and the £125 which you have

6 explained but again we have £1,000, so 2 months

7 later we have an identical fee?

8 A. Yes .

9 148 Q. So it begins to look as if it is --

10 A. As I say, around 1991 it would not surprise me for

11 the amount of work that I had been doing at that

12 stage that there was an additional fee.

13 149 Q. So, again, that may be the same. It may be a fee

14 from a client or you can't be more specific that it

15 was quite specifically one or the other?

16 A. I can't recall precisely what it was or how the in -

17 payment was initiated but I do know that in 1991/92,

18 as we know, the funds transferred from Cayman.

19 There was a lot of going to Irish Intercontinental

20 Bank explaining how the accounts had to be opened,

21 arranging for the funds to transfer over around that

22 period.

23 150 Q. They could have been that?

24 A. And the setting up of Hamilton Ross and all of that

25 appeared around that time.

26 151 Q. Fine. We see the same thing happening again at page

27 95 which is in April, (Exhibit 9) so we have had

28 October, December, April and again we have this

29 payment in April of £1,000 in April. So your

 1 evidence, I take it, will be the same?

2 A. It will be the same, yes.

3 152 Q. Okay. If we move along a bit to page 109 and we are

4 now into 1993 and here we are looking at the

5 statement for May 1993 and we have the usual £750

6 and £125 but we also have a lodgement at the

7 beginning of May for £5,000. What do you think or

8 do your recollect (Exhibit 10)?

9 A. Again, it would have been a payment made to me by

10 Mr. Traynor.

11 153 Q. By Mr. Traynor or Ansbacher?

12 A. Correct.

13 154 Q. Over and above your normal fee?

14 A. Over and above my normal fees, yes.

15 155 Q. In respect of payments such as fees from Mr. Traynor

16 over and above your normal fees or lump sum

17 gratuities like the ones you have described to us

18 there on the first page, would they at that time

19 have been declared to tax?

20 A. No, they would not but they were subsequently in

21 1997 declared.

22 156 Q. If we look at page 114, we are into October 1993

23 (Exhibit 11).

24 A. Yes .

25 157 Q. And we have a lodgement of £2,000?

26 A. That would be similar.

27 158 Q. Similar, okay. May I just stop going ahead there

28 for a minute and go slightly backwards to page 110

29 and 111 (Exhibit 12 and 13).

 1 A. Yes.

2 159 Q. If we look at page 110 first, we see the usual two

3 sums of £125 and £750. This is now June 1993

4 (Exhibit 12).

5 A. Yes.

6 160 Q. But then if we look at page 111 for July, we find

7 there is only the £750, the £125 stops and we do

8 not, in fact, see it any more after that at all

9 (Exhibit 13). I wonder if that might assist you to

10 remember what it was because it stops in July 1993,

11 the £125, and it never reappears?

12 A. As I say, in recollection I think the £125 was a

13 payment by Mr. Traynor himself. Again in 1993 we

14 have moved on a number of years. Quite a

15 substantial amount of these accounts have been

16 closed over the years. The volume of transactions

17 have dramatically reduced and the amount of work to

18 be done has again been reduced although you still

19 have to go in on a Saturday morning.

20 161 Q. And the £1,000 still appears from time to time?

21 A. It probably does, I don't recall. So whatever

22 rearranging of fees or whatever, maybe he himself

23 was receiving the £125 was stopped by him and we are

24 left with the £750.

25 162 Q. Which is certainly the Ansbacher payment?

26 A. Which is the Ansbacher. I think if you look at the

27 Ansbacher you will see £1,000 coming out there on

28 monthly basis and it is split £750 to myself and

29 £250 to Joan Williams.

35
 1 163 Q. In that regard, if we could move on to page 130

2 (Exhibit 14), and we are into 1995. We will be

3 going back again but I just want to clarify this

4 particular point. We are into February 1995 there

5 and we see the £750 as usual?

6 A. Yes .

7 164 Q. But if we turn over to the next page, March, the

8 £750 has disappeared and in fact it does not

9 reappear after that (Exhibit 15). So your fee from

10 Ansbacher, which at this stage we are talking about

11 how much you lost in fact, that is another thing I

12 will try to clarify in a moment, but it stops at

13 that point anyway, the £750?

14 A. No, I do not think that would be strictly true.

15 165 Q. Would it not?

16 A. No.

17 166 Q. I do not think I saw it again after that?

18 A. You did not see the £750 but you did see the £1,000.

19 167 Q. Not for months certainly?

20 A. May be not but

21 168 Q. Certainly not up to the end of 1995. We see other

22 figures but perhaps you might be able to explain

23 those as we go along?

24 A. I think if you go to page 142 (Exhibit 16).

25 169 Q. Yes, that is 1996 we are into there?

26 A. For April 1996 you see a lodgement there of £12,000

27 which is Ansbacher Cayman Limited payments. I think

28 that, if I recall, correctly, Mr. Traynor had died

29 at this stage and there was some -- obviously

36
 1 whether this payment should be made or should not be

2 paid around that time.

3 170 Q. That represented the past year?

4 A. I believe it did. Then if you look to May 1996 you

5 see the £1,000, April/May 1996 on page 143 (Exhibit

6 17) .

7 171 Q. So that was the back-dated payment?

8 A. That would be correct.

9 172 Q. That is 1993 then. In 1995 it stopped after Mr.

10 Traynor's death and therefore for that whole year

11 you did not receive your regular monthly fee but a

12 sum of £12,000 was lodged in April 1996 representing

13 back-dated payments?

14 A. Correct, yes.

15 173 Q. That clarifies that. If we could go back to where

16 we were and if we could look at page 118 (Exhibit

17 18). We are now into the beginning of 1994 and we

18 have the £750 but we also have a lodgement of

19 £1,968.69 on 24th January?

20 A. I have no idea what that represents.

21 174 Q. You can't recollect?

22 A. No.

23 175 Q. Fine, we will move on from that. Page 125?

24 A. Yes .

25 176 Q. This is September 1994 and we have the £750 and you

26 have a lodgement of £3,000 on the same day?

27 A. I can only assume that that is a fee that I charged

28 somebody because Mr. Traynor has now died at this

29 point in time and that I charged a fee to somebody

37
 1 and credited it in there to my account either in

2 Hamilton Ross. It most likely would be in Hamilton

3 Ross because obviously I had no authority over

4 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust.

5 177 Q. Right, so you might have charged a client of

6 Hamilton Ross a fee in respect of services?

7 A. In conjunction with Mr. Furze I would have said,

8 "Look, I had to do this service for client X and I

9 am going to charge him £3,000 for doing that",

10 because, as I stated in evidence, at this point in

11 time I had no intentions of wanting to carry on this

12 business and anyone that was availing it was paying

13 a premium rate.

14 178 Q. So this would be a fee charged by Hamilton Ross to

15 the client?

16 A. I gave the services to Hamilton Ross's client.

17 179 Q. On behalf of Hamilton Ross?

18 A. On behalf of Hamilton Ross and I, as the provider of

19 that service, said, "Look, this is going to cost

20 £3,000 to the client" and charged his account in

21 Hamilton Ross I presume. We will have to go back

22 through the records to ascertain that.

23 180 Q. It became a payment to you rather than the company?

24 A. Well, I provided the service so in providing the

25 service through Hamilton Ross to the client, yes it

26 became a payment to me.

27 181 Q. I see. I think I understand these but just for the

28 record, page 127 we see what I take to be expenses

29 in relation to your services (Exhibit 19)?

38
 1 A. Yes, the agreement was with Ansbacher. At this

2 point in time, obviously I am making phone calls for

3 authorisations to do certain things across the

4 accounts of Hamilton Ross and indeed Ansbacher to

5 John Furze in Cayman. So what I used to do on a

6 fairly monthly basis is look at my telephone bill

7 and see what fees were applicable to International

8 calls. Obviously I would have been sending him DHL

9 packages and incurring other expenses, so these are

10 the expenses being reclaimed.

11 182 Q. Now, at that stage Hamilton Ross was separate from

12 Ansbacher at this stage?

13 A. Very much so, yes. From 1992 onwards we have

14 Hamilton Ross separately.

15 183 Q. So in relation to the Ansbacher expenses that are

16 described there for Ansbacher, who would they have

17 been charged to, or how would you be incurring any

18 expenses for Ansbacher?

19 A. How John Furze has accounted for them, you know

20 184 Q. Really I am trying to find out -- you were then

21 working for Hamilton Ross?

22 A. I was working for both, Hamilton Ross and Ansbacher.

23 I never made a distinction. Hindsight is a great

24 thing. At that point in time they were the same

25 entity. They were being managed through John Furze.

26 185 Q. They were still the same entity at that stage?

27 A. Yes, and John Furze was in Ansbacher in Cayman.

28 186 Q. So your account which is as described there as

29 Hamilton Ross was an account in Hamilton Ross in

39
 1 Ansbacher at that stage; is that right?

2 A. These are the grey areas of where they were managed

3 at that point in time. I believe from the analysis

4 we have done over the periods is that Hamilton Ross

5 is a company managed by John Furze and that company

6 would have been managed by him whilst he was within

7 Henry Ansbacher, working within Ansbacher, but it

8 had its own bank account of course, as we know, with

9 Irish Intercontinental Bank.

10 187 Q. Yes?

11 A. When he then moved from Ansbacher to set up his own

12 company then Hamilton Ross obviously moved with him

13 in 1995/96.

14 188 Q. So at this stage in 1994 the expenses that you would

15 be incurring in relation to Ansbacher were, as far

16 as you were concerned, the same expenses you would

17 be incurring in relation to Hamilton Ross?

18 A. A phone to one or the other was to John Furze, yes.

19 189 Q. Again page 129 I see again these are Ansbacher

20 (Exhibit 20) telephone bill, dinner/lunch. These

21 were expenses incurred on behalf of either

22 Ansbacher/Hamilton Ross?

23 A. That is correct, yes.

24 190 Q. What was the exact date in 1995 when Hamilton Ross

25 moved from Ansbacher with Mr. Furze?

26 A. When Mr. Furze moved from Ansbacher?

27 191 Q. Yes .

28 A. I think it was some time in 1996.

29 192 Q. 1996?
 1 A. 1996 he moved, yes, because my recollection is that

2 he had set up this new company and he was about a

3 year out of there and then he died in late 1997.

4 193 Q. Yes. So what we are looking at at this stage is a

5 situation in which, as far as you were concerned,

6 the work that you were doing for Hamilton Ross was

7 the work you were doing for Ansbacher and vice

8 versa?

9 A. Absolutely.

10 194 Q. Can we turn now to page 130 (Exhibit 14)?

11 A. Yes .

12 195 Q. Here we are four lodgements. We have the usual

13 £750, this is February 1995. Then we have ME or Me,

14 I don't know which?

15 A. Or a mistype!

16 196 Q. £300 a small credit?

17 A. I can't recall what that is.

18 197 Q. Then we have a reverse entry. It starts off as

19 being a debit, Corporate Partners, and then it is

20 reversed and it becomes a credit?

21 A. Correct.

22 198 Q. What was that? It seems first to have been debited

23 to your account and then about 2 weeks later this

24 sum of £55,000 is credited?

25 A. Yes. A very good friend of mine who at one stage

26 worked in Guinness & Mahon, Moize Dawood-Ketty?

27 199 Q. Sorry?

28 A. Moize Dawood-Ketty.

29 200 Q. M-O-I-S-E?
 1 A. M-O-I-Z-E D-A-W-O-O-D-K-E-T-T-Y.

2 201 Q. A former Guinness & Mahon person did you say?

3 A. Yes, he might have been known in Guinness & Mahon as

4 Moize Dawood-Boye.

5 202 Q. How do you spell the Boye, B-O-Y-E, is it?

6 A. I think so, yes. He emigrated to the United States

7 and he was an investment advisor in foreign currency

8 dealing and then left the States and came back and

9 set up a business in Paris as an investment advisor

10 to major international clients. At the same time

11 he had a business somewhere in the middle of Paris

12 whereby he sold gifts and that type of thing to

13 tourists. A property next door to him, as

14 I understand it became available at very short

15 notice and he had just recently moved to Paris at

16 that point and he wished to buy that to expand his

17 business there. He phoned me to say was there any

18 way in which I could arrange a loan for him, say,

19 through my connections either here in Dublin or

20 through Ansbacher.

21 203 Q. Yes?

22 A. The amount was £110,000 and I said, after some

23 investigations with Mr. Furze etc., it was not

24 possible to do anything at such short notice in

25 Cayman, and what I did do, because I trusted him,

26 I said I would be prepared to lend him the £110,000.

27 204 Q. You personally?

28 A. Me personally in my own personal capacity.

29 Obviously from the statement there I did not have

42
 1 £110,000 so I approached Mr. Sam Field-Corbett and

2 he agreed to go the other half. So we both lent

3 £55,000 each. It then transpired that in fact in

4 Paris he did manage to get funding in time for the

5 venture and the purchase of the property and

6 therefore the £55,000 was returned.

7 205 Q. Within 2 weeks?

8 A. Yes.

9 206 Q. And Corporate Partners is the name for yourself and

10 Sam Field-Corbett; is that right?

11 A. No, it is a Sam Field-Corbett company or I believe

12 he has some connections with it in the UK.

13 207 Q. And why does that name appear there rather than the

14 name of Mr. Dawood?

15 A. Because that is who the payment was made to.

16 I think if you look at the transfers, it went out

17 through IIB. It would have gone to Corporate

18 Partnerships in the UK.

19 208 Q. So you actually paid the money to Sam

20 Field-Corbett's company?

21 A. And it in turn was holding those funds to pay

22 onwards. In fact it never paid them onwards, it

23 just returned them back.

24 209 Q. Thank you. If we could look at page 132 (Exhibit

25 21)?

26 A. Yes.

27 210 Q. We see two lodgements. This is after the £750 had

28 stopped, I think, yes?

29 A. Well, as I say, I did not think it stopped.

43
 1 211 Q. I think you explained that but the actual monthly

2 payment has stopped at that point, but here we see

3 two lodgements in April 1995. One is £35,000 and

4 the other is £3,750. First of all the £35,000

5 simply says "lodged". What would that relate to?

6 A. I think I would have to check from where that came

7 from but I think that may have been an agreement

8 between myself and John Furze for Hamilton Ross,

9 this was my services for the year and all, the work

10 that I had done for him since Mr. Traynor died, and

11 I think that would have come out of a suspense

12 account. I think it was the split of a suspense

13 account if I remember correctly.

14 212 Q. A split of a suspense account?

15 A. Yes .

16 213 Q. Between you and him?

17 A. Well, I think if we look at Mr. Sam Field-Corbett

18 I think there may have been a similar account

19 contained in his account.

20 214 Q. I see, so it would have been a split of the suspense

21 account between you and Mr. Field-Corbett if you

22 are right about this?

23 A. If I am right about this.

24 215 Q. Would you be able to check that out for us?

25 A. Yes we can.

26 216 Q. When I say "check it out", I mean would you be able

27 to confirm that?

28 A. Yes I will of course.

29 217 Q. Because as I understand your evidence at the moment,

 1 you think that is what it is but you are not

2 certain?

3 A. Yes, I will check the records.

4 218 Q. In relation to Hamilton Ross?

5 A. In relation to Hamilton Ross because Ansbacher has

6 almost ceased at this point. They are in the

7 process of their funds being moved back out of

8 Dublin etc. quite substantially at this point in

9 time.

10 219 Q. Although you have explained to me up to this point

11 in your own eyes what you were doing for Hamilton

12 Ross you were doing for Ansbacher?

13 A. Yes. They were intermeshed up to 1996.

14 220 Q. But if you are correct about this in Mr. Furze's

15 view, this is separate from Ansbacher; is that

16 right?

17 A. In this because Hamilton Ross was running -- the

18 monies came out of Hamilton Ross but it was fees or

19 services that were done for both because there was a

20 huge tidy up operation and to get all the affairs

21 sorted out after Mr. Traynor's death in 1994/95.

22 221 Q. So in fact it could have been fees in respect of

23 both Hamilton Ross and Ansbacher?

24 A. You could interpret them as that, yes.

25 222 Q. And then the £3,750 on the same date?

26 A. I think this was money I must have given to Sam

27 Field-Corbett for some reason or another, but

28 I think you will find a debit for £3,750 in an A/C

29 account so it was a transfer of monies from his

45
 1 account to me.

2 223 Q. A transfer from Sam Field-Corbett's account. So

3 this would have been a repayment from Mr.

4 Field-Corbett to you?

5 A. It was, it was repayment, yes.

6 224 Q. So this is money differently to anything we have

7 looked at so far, it is not fees?

8 A. No.

9 225 Q. And the monies that you would have given him

10 originally, would they have come out of your

11 Ansbacher account?

12 A. No I do not think so. I think they would have come

13 out of my domestic.

14 226 Q. So this is an additional lodgement to your account?

15 A. It is.

16 227 Q. Page 133 I think there we have expenses again and

17 they speak for themselves, would that be correct,

18 telephone charges (Exhibit 22)?

19 A. That is correct, yes.

20 228 Q. Page 134, ACL £2,000 (Exhibit 23)?

21 A. I would imagine that that is probably May and June's

22 £1,000.
23 229 Q. ACL stands for?

24 A. Ansbacher Cayman Limited.

25 230 Q. So Ansbacher Cayman limited as opposed to Hamilton

26 Ross is still paying you the fees in June 1996?

27 A. 1995.

28 231 Q. Sorry 1995?

29 A. Yes.

46
 1 232 Q. That payment from Ansbacher falls on its own in the

2 middle of that year. That is the year when the £750

3 had stopped and at the end of which you got the

4 £12,000 there, the back payments?

5 A. Yes, it does.

6 233 Q. But this £2000 leaps suddenly into the middle of

7 that year?

8 A. I agree with you on that, but ACL, that is the

9 allocation that you see later on under ACT.

10 234 Q. It represents payment from Ansbacher anyway whatever

11 it is?

12 A. It does, yes.

13 235 Q. Page 140 (Exhibit 24)?

14 A. Yes.

15 236 Q. I can see the first one there again is expenses on

16 8th January 1996, £300?

17 A. Correct.

18 237 Q. Down at the bottom then we have a figure of £5,000

19 lodged on 18th January 1996?

20 A. Yes I can only believe that that is a fee agreed

21 with Mr. Furze that I charged somebody so that

22 would have been a fee.

23 238 Q. Again a client fee?

24 A. It would have been a client fee, yes.

25 239 Q. Similar to the one that you described before, that

26 the client would have paid and you would have lodged

27 to your account?

28 A. Correct.

29 240 Q. At page 142 (Exhibit 16)we see the £12,000 you

47
 1 explained to us but we have a sum of £55,000 again

2 lodged. Transfer it says?

3 A. Yes, and I think likewise, if I may go back, to the

4 £35,000 of the previous year, I think that was in

5 April, was it not, also?

6 241 Q. This is page 132 there, lodged on 25th April

7 (Exhibit 21)?

8 A. Yes, that was April 1995 we had £35,000 and in April

9 1996 we had a similar arrangement which has now gone

10 up to £55,000.

11 242 Q. Would you explain to me what that arrangement was

12 again?

13 A. What it was was an accumulation of fees and

14 commissions that were accumulated in a suspense

15 account for Hamilton Ross and this was a direct

16 payment from John Furze to me for keeping this

17 service going to him and that was the incentive that

18 was to him was to get this thing finished with. As

19 long as he continued on this I was going to

20 effectively take all the fees until he got this

21 cleared out.

22 243 Q. So this £55,000 does not have any relationship with

23 the £55,000 that you and Sam Field-Corbett each paid

24 in respect of Corporate Partners?

25 A. Absolutely not.

26 244 Q. It just happens to be the same figure?

27 A. Absolutely.

28 245 Q. It is referred to there as a transfer whereas

29 everything else is referred to as a lodgement?

48
 1 A. It was a transfer from one account to another.

2 24 6 Q. From what account?

3 A. I think it was "A/A67", if you look, was the

4 suspense account from which it came from.

5 247 Q. It was transferred from the suspense account?

6 A. Correct.

7 248 Q. It is just not described in the previous year as a

8 transfer. It would have been on that occasion

9 transferred to the suspense account?

10 A. It would have been, exactly.

11 249 Q. This was the suspense account of Hamilton Ross or

12 Ansbacher?

13 A. Hamilton Ross.

14 250 Q. Hamilton Ross in?

15 A. In Hamilton Ross.

16 251 Q. On the previous year Hamilton Ross was not a

17 separate entity?

18 A. No, it was always a separate entity from 1992

19 although the management of it would have been out of

20 Cayman. That is where the blurring came until Mr.

21 Furze moved out of Ansbacher Cayman.

22 252 Q. So this was the suspense account of Hamilton Ross in

23 Hamilton Ross in Cayman?

24 A. Correct, although the funds were in the total bucket

25 account within IIB, one must be clear about that.

26 253 Q. Right. The funds that this came out of were, tell

27 me again?

28 A. It is in that general account which we referred to.

29 254 Q. The pooled account?

49
 1 A. The pooled account.

2 255 Q. Which was the Ansbacher account?

3 A. There were two pooled accounts. There is a pooled

4 account for Ansbacher and there is a pooled account

5 for Hamilton Ross.

6 256 Q. And this one came out of the Hamilton Ross account?

7 A. Correct. On the pooled account of course you would

8 see no movements because it is purely internal

9 within the Bureau system.

10 257 Q. When you say you would see no movement on that

11 account at all, would there be no reflection

12 generally, would it not be lowered by that amount?

13 A. No because no monies physically came out, so what

14 I think you would see would be in this instance a

15 balance on the suspense account, say, of £112,000

16 and then you would see a debit of £110,00 and two

17 credits of £55,000, so the overall balance did not

18 reduce in any way. The funds have just moved from

19 one account to another within the Bureau system,

20 within the separate accounts.

21 258 Q. Maybe we are getting confused here. We are talking

22 about £110,000 and 2 £55,000. We are not talking

23 now about Corporate Partners?

24 A. No. Let us go back to 35 then, the 70.

25 259 Q. You are talking about two payments to yourself and

26 Sam Field-Corbett?

27 A. Correct. If you had a marker on the board I would

28 illustrate it very easily for you.

29 2 60 Q. We have not but we could get one. Maybe while Ms.

50
 1 Cummins is getting it, we will look at the next one,

2 page 153. Is this your writing, Mr. Collery

3 (Exhibit 25)?

4 A. Yes it is.

5 261 Q. Here we have the statement of your account for 1997

6 from April to July; is that right?

7 A. Correct.

8 262 Q. And we see interest mounting up and then we see a

9 large withdrawal?

10 A. Correct.

11 263 Q. Then we see?

12 A. I might add that that withdrawal is the preliminary

13 payment in settlement of my taxes to the Revenue.

14 264 Q. Right. Then we see a lodgement in Irish currency

15 transferred to Sterling, is that correct, of £22,759

16 Sterling?

17 A. No I think that is a Sterling figure of £22,759.38.

18 It is not Irish.

19 265 Q. Yes, I beg your pardon. That is a lodgement of

20 Sterling, is it?

21 A. That is correct.

22 266 Q. And what would that represent?

23 A. If you back to page 148 (Exhibit 26)?

24 267 Q. Yes .

25 A. There was an investment of A $50,000 made in shares

26 which came to £22,809.53.

27 268 Q. When you say there was an investment made, this is

28 an investment you made?

29 A. This is an investment I made, yes.

 1 269 Q. And this investment was in Australian Dollars, it

2 was an Australian investment?

3 A. It was an Australian company, yes. It was, I

4 suppose to use the phrase that is currently in our

5 own industry, a dot com but it was not quite a dot

6 com company but it was in technology industry.

7 270 Q. Can I ask you the name of the company?

8 A. I can't recall it but I will have to go through the

9 documentation to find out the name of it.

10 271 Q. And you invested this sum of AUD$50,000?

11 A. That is correct.

12 272 Q. Yes?

13 A. And, as you can see, it was not a very good

14 investment because we sold it. I sold it in July of

15 1997 and it made a loss of over £1,000.

16 273 Q. So this was the proceeds of sale?

17 A. Correct and this was also to tidy up and close my

18 account in Cayman so any overseas investments that

19 I had I wanted to close them up and complete them.

20 274 Q. So that was the closing of your account. There is a

21 small sum still in it there?

22 A. That has been charged as a fee by Hamilton Ross so

23 it has effectively closed now.

24 275 Q. That brings us to the end of your statements.

25 Now, maybe I am going back over something but I have

26 a question to ask you about this. Perhaps I have

27 covered it and I have forgotten but would you

28 forgive me if I asked. Could you look back at page

29 101, if you would not mind (Exhibit 27)?

 1 A. Yes .

2 276 Q. We see a transfer there of £77,000. Did I ask you

3 about that, Mr. Collery?

4 A. No but I can explain that.

5 277 Q. Yes?

6 A. What is happening here in 1992 is that the account

7 prior to this was held in the books of Ansbacher

8 Cayman Limited so it was held in the Bureau system

9 of Ansbacher Cayman Limited.

10 278 Q. Yes .

11 A. So what you see there is that debit of £77,092.34 is

12 bringing that account to zero as you can see from

13 the bottom of the page.

14 279 Q. Yes .

15 A. And then if you go to page 102 (Exhibit 28).

16 280 Q. Yes?

17 A. You will see the opening of the account with

18 £77,092.34 which is the exact same amount --

19 281 Q. The opening of what account?

20 A. Of an account in Hamilton Ross.

21 282 Q. No, it says Ansbacher Cayman Limited?

22 A. It may well do but be sure that it is, it was some

23 movements around within Bureau systems because it

24 subsequently moved again in December 1992/1993. So

25 what was happening there was the funds were moving

26 from one Bureau system to another and you see the

27 ins and outs which are of similar amounts.

28 283 Q. I am puzzled about where it is going because page

29 102 where you see the reversal, which it is

53
 1 described as rather than a transfer, you are still

2 referring to Ansbacher Cayman Limited?

3 A. I do.

4 284 Q. It looks as if it is the same account and there is

5 just a reversal of the transaction?

6 A. It is not -- I do not think it is the same account,

7 Ms. Mackey, because if you look at page whatever it

8 is.

9 285 Q. It is page 4 anyway of the account (Exhibit 28)?

10 A. If we look at page 43 (Exhibit 29).

11 286 Q. Yes, because the next is page 44 (Exhibit 30). So

12 that seems to be a continuation of it?

13 A. That may well have been the case. So some movement

14 has been taking place out of one Bureau system to

15 another.

16 287 Q. So it is one Bureau to another but it is the same

17 account?

18 A. It is the same account, yes, and then we definitely

19 can see in December 1992 there is not a closing

20 statement because it is obviously missing.

21 288 Q. Which page are we at now?

22 A. If you go to page 104 (Exhibit 31)?

23 289 Q. Yes.

24 A. You have a figure £79,975.74.

25 290 Q. At 105. Actually this is a question I was going to

26 ask you because on page 105 we have the account of

27 Hamilton Ross (Exhibit 32)?

28 A. Correct. That is the movement definitely out of

29 Ansbacher.

54
 1 291 Q. We have a lodgement of this figure but we do not see

2 it being withdrawn previously?

3 A. No but the closing balance of £79,975.74 on page 45

4 of the previous statement, which page number 104, is

5 the carry forward balance (Exhibit 31).

6 292 Q. Well the closing balance on that page is carried

7 forward and on the next page then it says, "B/F 0".

8 A. Yes but it is the same account number but I can

9 assure you it is in a new Bureau system. That is

10 now in the Hamilton Ross Bureau system.

11 293 Q. I see that and I see what you are saying. What I am

12 saying is we do not see that sum being withdrawn

13 from Ansbacher. We see it being lodged certainly.

14 A. The page must be missing there.

15 294 Q. That seems to follow on. We are talking about 31st

16 December 1992 on page 104 (Exhibit 31) and the next

17 page we are at 4th January 1993 (Exhibit 32) and we

18 are lodging what is the closing balance on the

19 previous page. My only point is that there is no

20 transaction showing the closing of Ansbacher Limited

21 account?

22 A. Whilst I accept the page that is showing that

23 transaction is missing, I can assure you

24 295 Q. You think it might be that there might be a whole

25 page between 31st December and

26 A. There is another page there. If you go to page 107,

27 Ms. Mackey, it is very clear. Do you see them

28 number 3 there (Exhibit 33)?

29 296 Q. I do.

55
 1 A. So if you go back, the next one is page number 2.

2 297 Q. Yes. I see that and I see that the name is Hamilton

3 Ross on it. My sole point is that we do not have

4 anything showing us the withdrawal of that sum from

5 the account called Ansbacher Cayman Limited?

6 A. I do accept that but be assured that is what

7 happened.

8 298 Q. I take the point. Looking again at this account of

9 Hamilton Ross that starts on page 105, page 105

10 (Exhibit 32) itself is a bad copy from the point of

11 view of what is on the top, the heading, but if we

12 look at the next page, 106, we see that the

13 statement is still called Ansbacher Limited and it

14 is the account of Hamilton Ross and Ansbacher

15 (Exhibit 34)?

16 A. That was merely using up stationery.

17 299 Q. Well, that may be but what it appears there is that

18 this is a statement issued by Ansbacher Limited of

19 an account in the name of Hamilton Ross. Isn't that

20 what appears from this document?

21 A. That is what appears. The fact would be that there

22 was stationery in Dublin which had Ansbacher Cayman

23 on it and, as I say, Ansbacher/Hamilton Ross, you

24 could deem at that point in time that Hamilton Ross

25 was a client of Ansbacher but because the two of

26 them are so intrinsically mixed, vis-a-vis the

27 ownership of Hamilton Ross by John Furze, that is

28 what has happened there.

29 300 Q. So you are just using up stationary in Dublin?

56
 1 A. Yes. These were all internal situations so really

2 that type of thing wasn't very important.

3 301 Q. Yes. Can you point me to the statement where

4 Hamilton Ross ceases to appear on Ansbacher headed

5 paper and appears on paper headed Hamilton Ross?

6 A. Well, in fact the stationary, if you go to page 116.

7 302 Q. Yes?

8 A. No, sorry, if you go to page 114 (Exhibit 11)?

9 303 Q. Yes?

10 A. You will see that at that point in time we have,

11 granted the photocopy is not great, 114 has the

12 Ansbacher logo on the right-hand side.

13 304 Q. Yes?

14 A. Then when we go to page 115, November 1993, that

15 logo is now left off (Exhibit 34).

16 305 Q. It is left off but we are at page 11 of a series of

17 statements and the previous page is page 10 so it

18 seems to be a continuation of the statements that

19 have gone before it?

20 A. It is and that is supporting my -- the stationery

21 has now been used up and we have now printed off new

22 stationery and the new stationery does not have the

23 logo of Ansbacher on the right-hand side.

24 306 Q. But it does not have the logo of Hamilton Ross

25 either?

26 A. But it has the name of Hamilton Ross on the

27 left-hand side.

28 307 Q. It has that all along?

29 A. Yes .
 1 308 Q. So in fact for anyone looking at these they appear

2 to be a sequence of the same statements of Ansbacher

3 Cayman in relation to the account of Hamilton Ross

4 and the only difference between this and the

5 previous ones is that the name Ansbacher has been

6 taken out of it but other than that the same

7 sequence is taken?

8 A. It is indeed, it is on the same Bureau system, yes,

9 absolutely.

10 309 Q. I think there is only one other thing that I want to

11 ask you about, Mr. Collery, and not ask you about in

12 detail because this is not the moment, but simply

13 ask you to furnish us with the information you

14 offered us earlier and that is in relation to the

15 account of AA/30/KK. You offered to assist us in

16 relation to that?

17 A. Absolutely, yes.

18 310 Q. Is it the case that you would be able to give us all

19 the relevant information about that?

20 A. If I may, I would prefer to do that.

21 311 Q. I understand that. Well, for the moment we have to

22 reserve our position on how we will deal with this,

23 but for the moment, if you would undertake to

24 furnish us with everything you have in your

25 possession in relation to that account in your

26 control?

27 A. Yes I understand.

28 312 Q. Anything that you can get in relation to AA/30/KK

29 and we will look at that.

58
1 A. Okay.

2 313 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

3 Mr. Rowan might have one or two.

6 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. PADRAIG COLLERY BY MS.

7 MACKEY

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

59
 1 MR. PADRAIG COLLERY WAS FURTHER EXAMINED BY MR.

2 ROWAN AS FOLLOWS:

5 314 Q. MR. ROWAN: Just one final point, Mr.

6 Collery. We have spent a

7 lot of time just now talking about what was printed

8 on the headings of the stationery particularly on

9 the changeover period. Would other customers of

10 Ansbacher/Hamilton Ross have received similar

11 stationery, details of their accounts and similar

12 stationery?

13 A. Yes if they requested it. As has been, I understand

14 and it is true, that during Mr. Traynor's tenure and

15 as indeed can be supported from the early days of

16 those statements, the heading of the statements were

17 shredded or cut off. Certainly during my tenure, if

18 somebody asked for a copy of their statement as back

19 as far as they could, and there are some

20 difficulties in giving that information because of

21 restrictions on us, but, yes, looking at the

22 originals of those documents the early days had

23 Ansbacher logo on the right-hand side, and then from

24 whatever date we discussed there in 1993, the logo,

25 because there was a reprint of stationery, it does

26 not have it on there.

27 315 Q. You obviously were aware why that was. How easy was

28 it to explain to people who might not have been so

29 close to the action what was going on and did they

60
 1 ask?

2 A. I think that is the pertinent question. I think

3 really people did not concern themselves. As far as

4 I can see, and indeed having spoken to people, they

5 trusted Mr. Traynor. He was looking after their

6 affairs or looking after their funds that they had

7 deposited in Cayman and these documents served to

8 account for those funds that were lodged or were

9 held on behalf of those individuals or to the

10 benefit of those individuals and it merely was an

11 accounting confirmation that they were receiving.

12

13 I think to go into the intricacies of it for an

14 individual, and I have tried to do it with people

15 who not familiar with the intricacy of banking, and

16 where you start talking about where accounts resided

17 etc., really a person not familiar with the banking

18 system has great difficulty in understanding how all

19 this thing operated and indeed the more they read in

20 the papers they even get more confused.

21 316 Q. You were going to demonstrate something to us on the

22 chart?

23 A. Yes .

24 317 Q. Would you like to do that.

25 318 Q. MS MACKEY: I am just thinking, Mr.

26 Collery, that while the

27 chart is a great idea from the point of view of all

28 of us here, it will not go on the record. Would it

29 be better if you did it on a piece of paper that we

61
 1 could append to the transcript. I think it actually

2 would?

3 A. Yes.

4 319 Q. And you can tell us if you would not mind?

5 A. You want me on illustrate how both systems work

6 parallel to each other or just concentrate on

7 Hamilton Ross?

8 320 Q. If you would demonstrate how they work parallel to

9 each other that would be great, thank you.

10 Probably the best thing would be if you draw it, Mr.

11 Collery, and then you can show it to us and explain?

12 A. Yes, that is exactly what I am going to do (Pause).

13 What I am illustrating here are two pages, one

14 (Exhibit 35) headed up "Ansbacher Cayman Limited"

15 and one headed "Hamilton Ross". On the left-hand

16 side of the page I have then illustrated with the

17 word "Bureau system" with accounts A, B, C and D,

18 and in the account A as illustrated there is a

19 balance of £700 credit. In the account B is £100

20 credit, account C is £200 credit and account D is

21 £300 credit.

22 321 Q. MS MACKEY: These are just examples?

23 A. These are just examples. On the right-hand side of

24 that page I then illustrate that there is a general

25 bank account which would have been held in Irish

26 Intercontinental Bank which represents the total of

27 those accounts at £1,300.

28

29 On the next page, as I have said, I have illustrated

62
 1 Hamilton Ross, and likewise it had its own

2 independent Bureau system and in the illustration I

3 have accounts A, B, C and D. Account A has a

4 balance of £400 credit, account B has £200 credit,

5 account C has £100 and account D has £150.

7 On the right-hand side Hamilton Ross also had an

8 account in Irish Intercontinental Bank and in this

9 example obviously it would be representative of the

10 total balance in the Bureau system coming to £850.

11

12 In the example that we were discussing as a payment

13 of the fee from the suspense account in the Hamilton

14 Ross books in the Bureau system if account B

15 represents my account and account D represents the

16 suspense account we were talking about, the £50

17 would have been debited to account D and credited to

18 account B and, therefore, the overall balance --

19 totality of them would not have moved and therefore

20 you would have seen no movement on the general

21 account within IIB.

22 322 Q. MS MACKEY: That is very clear, thank

23 you.

24 323 Q. MR. ROWAN: Just one point. That

25 looks like 113. It is

26 intended be IIB.

27 A. Correct.

28 MS MACKEY: Thank you very much, Mr.

29 Collery. I think Mr.

63
 1 Rowan has one final question before we wind up.

2 324 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Collery, just

3 reverting to the page in

4 our book number 36 which Ms. Cummins will pass you

5 a copy (Exhibit 4)?

6 A. (Handed).

7 325 Q. I omitted to ask you, bearing in mind the address on

8 the right-hand side, 245 Beech Park, Lucan, there is

9 about 3 or 4 lines further down a further reference

10 to that same address against a company called

11 Darsley Nominees Limited. Are you familiar with

12 that organisation?

13 A. This was a company which was used by me to

14 facilitate the cashing of cheques with the Bank of

15 Ireland. IIB did not have the facility whereby

16 obviously you could get cash, so the process was

17 whereby a cheque would have been requested from IIB,

18 then lodged into the account of, in this case

19 Darsley Nominees Limited,and then cash withdrawn and

20 this account was held with the Bank of Ireland and

21 in the documentation that you received, you have

22 bank statements relating to that account.

23 326 Q. Who controlled Darsley Nominees?

24 A. The signatures on the account were myself and Sam

25 Field-Corbett. It was an Isle of Man company.

26 327 Q. You answered me by saying the signatures on the

27 account. Does that mean that Mr. Field-Corbett and

28 yourself also controlled the share capital?

29 A. You controlled it in legal terms. Obviously there

64
 1 were Isle of Man directors and shareholders.

2 328 Q. Holding shares in trust for you?

3 A. In effect yes.

4 329 Q. Actually?

5 A. Actually. The company had no value because it was

6 just a cash company of which the balance was moved

7 in and out.

8 330 Q. Darsley would have fulfilled, would it not, a

9 similar function or at least a function of a similar

10 type to that which one of the Amiens companies would

11 have fulfilled?

12 A. It would indeed. Kentford would have been another

13 one of those, yes, I would accept that.

14 331 Q. But Darsley actually was a company effectively

15 controlled by Mr. Field-Corbett and yourself whereas

16 the others were companies controlled by one or other

17 of the Ansbacher entities?

18 A. They were controlled by Mr. Traynor so, effectively,

19 when Mr. Traynor died I went through the process of

20 closing the Kentford account that was in existence

21 at that point in time.

22 332 Q. So Darsley actually came to being post Mr. Traynor's

23 death?

24 A. It did indeed.

25 333 Q. I am sorry to labour the point, the facility to

26 obtain cash out of Darsley was to facilitate not

27 just yourself but other clients?

28 A. The clients of Hamilton Ross.

29 334 Q. Yes?

65
 1 A. Yes.

2 MR. ROWAN: Thank you very much.

3 In due course we will

4 go through the routine with which you are familiar

5 of you being asked to approve and eventually come in

6 and sign the written text of this interview today.

7 A. I very much appreciate the last arrangement we had

8 so if we can maybe do something similar.

9 MS. CUMMINS: Yes.

10

11

12

13 THE INTERVIEW THEN CONCLUDED

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

66
/ ' M <

YJoAUrs
Appendix XV (17) (l)(b)
 Without Prejudice

Overview Document

1. Objective

The objective of this document is twofold :-

1) give an indication of my role generally,
2) to outline the key dates which will assist the Tribunal in understanding the
keeping of records of trust accounts held in Guinness & Mahon Limited
(Dublin) and subsequently in Irish Intercontinental Bank.

2. Career

My entire career has been always associated with Banking. Thefollowing are the key
dates:
1.1968-1974: Lloyds Bank, London - Bank Official in Retail Banking.

2.1974-1939 : Guinness & Mahon Ltd, Dublin - Senior Bank Official with
' - responsibilities for Accounts and Computer Operations.

3.1989-Present: Kindle Banking Systems - Support Manager supporting

Standard Chartered Bank sites which use Kindle products

4.1976-Present: Maintained Memorandum accounts in respect of Ansbacher

Cayman Ltd (formally Guinness & Mahon (Cayman) Ltd)
clients andsubsequently Hamilton Ross clients.

5. 1994-Present: Acted as Liasion Officer for clients of Ansbacher Cayman Ltd

and Hamilton Ross Ltd until 1995 and thereafter to present for
Hamilton Ross Ltd only.

My main area of responsibility in Guinness & Mahon was the Management of the
accounts department of the Bank. This department was responsiblefor the
maintenance of all the customer and internal accounts of the Bank. The department
would have acted on the instructions of the customers and on instructions received
from internal sources. It also provided information to the Banks customers,
information to internal departments, Auditors, etc.
As part of my role I provided assistance in the keeping of memorandum accounts for
Guinness & Mahon Dublin Ltd's then subsidiary Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust
Ltd which subsequently became Ansbacher Cayman Ltd.

3. Documentation
The following details the various types of documentation which existed for
Ansbacher Cayman Ltd and are part of the records in G & M Dublin.

1. Bank Statements of Ansbacher Cayman Ltd account with G & M Dublin.

2. Instructions from Ansbacher Cayman Ltd / Mr Des Traynor toG&M
Dublin.

3. Advice's / Contract Notes of transactions over the various accounts.

4. Correspondence relating to Audit confirmations and inter company issues.

In addition to these records there existed other documentation which werefor the
benefit of Ansbacher Cayman Ltd which related to their clients and can be best
described as fbllows:-

5. Memorandum account records.

6. Instructions relating to these records.

7. Trust / Company / Individual correspondence files.

Memorandum accounts were maintained for sterling accounts only. These were
originally held to assist Ansbacher Cayman Ltd keep a record of transactions over its
individual clients accounts until such time as it had its own computer system. While
that requirement was resolved it was found that the system assisted in tracking that
correct postings were being made by the bank in Cayman and balances could be
obtained when the bank was not open (Time difference). In later years the system was
used to control and keep track of funds which were placed for liquidity / funding
reasons with G & M Ltd Dublin.
While instructions relating to a transaction regarding the bank account with G & M
Ltd Dublin would go on the Banks records ( G & M Ltd), separate written
instructions by Des Traynor would be endorsed on a copy thereof and would be
given to me to indicate which memorandum account / accounts should reflect that
transaction.
Trust / Company / Individual records were maintained by Mr Des Traynor.

4. Significant Dates

'84 (?) - Mr Des Traynor leaves G&M

'89 - Padraig Collery leaves G & M
'90/91 - Accounts movefrom G & M to Irish Intrcontinental Bank (HB)
'92 - Some clients movefrom Ansbacher to new Company (Hamilton Ross Ltd)
(HR) which opens a bank account with IIB and it also has a Memorandum Account
support structure maintained by me on instructionsfrom Des Traynor.
'94 - Mr Des Traynor dies
'95 - Ansbacher accounts closed in IIB
Present - HR moving to John Furze new trust company in Cayman.
 From the above dates a number of significant events were triggered. It is important to
understand that from '76 to '94 my role, apart from my primary function whether it be
in G & M or after, was that of an account record keeper on the instructions of.Mr Des
Traynor. Thisrolewas expanded in 1994 for thefollowing reason:

On the death of Mr Traynor I was contacted by Mr John Fuze (Director of Ansbacher

Cayman Ltd and Director Hamilton Ross Ltd) and asked if I would act as a liaison
person in Ireland until such time as alternative arrangements were made. He instructed
me to contact Mr Traynors secretary and seek release of thefiles relatingto the
Cayman operation. As these records had nothing to do with my principle place of
employment I contacted a personal friend of mine (Sam Field Corbett) to see if he had
an office to house thesefiles. As this was to be a temporary situation he offered to
assist me, provided the space required could be limited to onefiling cabinet
In Oct / Nov '94 John Furze came to Dublin to meet with his clients. During that visit
he reviewed all thefiles which I had removedfrom Mr Traynors office. Arising from
that review somefiles remained, some were shredded because the clients were no
longer with the bank, some he took back with him.
Early '951 was advised by John Furze that he was leaving Ansbacher Cayman Ltd
and was planning to set up a new trust operation in Cayman. He expected that it
would take him and his new partner at least one year to obtain the Trust licence but
the early indications were that the authorities were giving it favourable considerations.
He also indicated that Ansbacher Cayman Ltd were now in a position to and indeed
wished to close the bank accounts with IIB and take the funds back into their own
books. The transfer took place in March '95 and thus ended the need fdr keeping
memorandum accounts for Ansbacher Cayman Ltd.

Over the following months assistance was given in reconciling account records and
this exercise was completed towards the end of June '95.1 continued to provide a
liaison role but had no input or otherwise to thefinancial records since June '95 for
Ansbacher Cayman Ltd, As the reconciliation of accounts was completed, Ansbacher
Cayman Ltd were satisfied that it had control of die situation, there was no need to
hold onto the old instructions on memorandum accounts given by Mr Traynor nor was
t there any need for the memorandum accounts as the bank had records if required by
the clients and there was a space limitation, the documentation mentioned in
paragraph 3 section 5 & 6 were shredded in or around Sq>tember 1995 by myself and
Mr. John Furze.

In relation to Hamilton Ross most of the clientfiles have been carried forward from
the period when the accounts were within the Ansbacher account structure,
memorandum of accounts and instructionsfrom Mr Des Traynor prior to his death
were shredded for the same reasons as above. However memorandum accounts from
the beginning of the new arrangement are available (i.e. after the death of Des
Traynor).

jf J. Schedule Transactions

From the above I trust it is clear as to the availability of documentation and non-
availability of others to the Tribunal. I would also wish to state again thatfrom '76
to '941 performed a book keeping role for Ansbacher Cayman / Hamilton Ross Ltd /
Mr Traynor. I accept that if what is stated in the schedule to the Tribunal Order for
Discovery dated 19th May'97 is true then it is likely I posted the amounts mention
therein. I do not recall such amounts nor do I have any knowledge or memory as to.
which memorandum account or accounts such amounts were posted.

Since the dead! of Mr Traynor I have had access to thefiles and have been contacted
by clients. I therefore have a greater knowledge of individual situations and
transactions. If there is any doubt I contact Mr Furze for instructions as he is the
Director and Shareholder of Hamilton Ross Ltd and therefore responsible to the
clients. As John Furze now has his Trust licence these clients will be managed by this
new company and as with Ansbacher I will have no involvement in the very near
future.
ri»c/miiy/nri»c.97/trib
Appendix XV (17) (1) (c)
 .all i>iJ'i;'JiT A/r LUDUtiri
DATE PARTICULARS VALUE DATE DEBIT

3incCo7 <=i)ALA;.Ci. b"UIK»Hr FQKUAKi.

04JAN&Q CR. I.'.TLRLSI K A Lc$ r.MAut>in
j. on r...ns .
1JJANOFT Ljnor..
2 VJAN81) LliOu!"..

•
ST £ <."JAWU(!
CREDIT BALANCE

\
3»t»77.<,0
3 »677« IrU
uooo.on 4»677.40
l?s.oo 4,802.40

m
Appendix XV (17) (l)(d)
 lillSH IN TIHC O XT I m NT A t tAHK

!TF!P9fiTT A C C O T H T W I T H D R A W A L

- W W k c r t h L
I/We hereby request a withdrawal from jptffoux

Deposit Account No.

the sum of
o^vs'fc

by cheque/caslr payable to

Signed

Dated

IMrUCONTINCNTAL BANK UMITCO • VI MUUUOM SQMAM* OUWJN 2 • TUXTHONt. 01 4197** • MHIMHi 01

K C C U T t l U D IN T H l U P U * L I C O f IKCtAHO H U M « t » « » »

. . . M » M H > M.V. •• « • i.
Appendix XV (17) (1) (e)
 Name Details Where Held

ColleryD P Mr No Trust Ansbacher/HR

IA/C Code | Address

A/A 30 245 Beech Park, Lucan, Co Dublin

Appendix XV (17) (1) (f)
jji/i.2/yci DROUGHT FOHWAHU
2/ i/yj JIIXJEI)
il U'H 31/1^/91 LOIXJEH
V i/-n 3/ 1/91 LOWED
11/ j/9i 17/ 1/91 WJAFT
!'J/ 1/9 • 2*V 3/91 CACA

^1/ 1/91
CARRIED FORWARD
 881.78
5450.00 4007f. ,
6075.00 54451.06
60.00 54091.06
24.00

54A67.06
 •muuni ruiiiiMiu
3/10/91 2/i ?1
14/10/91 A/M. A vJL MUTUAL
JI/10/91 31/10/91 LODGED
11/10/91 31/10/91 LODCLD

5
|ififl
 1000.00 6623B
98.w - 66200.
125.00
750.00

67075.09
io/ '.I/'JI 1/ luucuu
t)0/ y/!ll 3u, i/i)> Infprotl. lo 30/ 9/tJI

1/ IO/*3l
CAHRIEO FOBWAHD
 IVb.OU
750.00
Iffifrif

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>U/ I 1/ JI IHUUtatll l-UHWAHU
12/12/91 12/ HI DGED
M/12/91 31/1.. LODGED
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M/12/91 31/12/91 Interest to 31/12/91

^1/12/91
CARRIED FORWARD
 67490
1000.00 68490
125.00
750.00

71068.97 J
 y
13/ 4/92 1? ' 0/9" WED
13/ A/92 l's. /9s. ^1000
30/ 4/92 30/ 4/92 LODGED
10/ 4/92 30/ 4/92 LODGED

30/ 4/92
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AM ttM m* <ii>m ' wm.*r ' «i

\/ V VI
L. J ACCOUNT NUMBER UUUUV.SIK.
BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: S t e r J itltf
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<3
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31/10/93 31/10/93 LOUGliD 750.00

31/10/93 r 92100.65
CARRIED FORWARD
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BALANCES SHOWN AHfc IN: Stferl irig

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10/06/93 30/06/93 Interest to 30/06/93
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 A/A30

ACCOUNT KUiiaEH 60001386 PAGE 27

BALANCES SHOAriAfi£ IN: sterling

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CARRIED FORWARD

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 A/A30

ACCOUfJTNUMaeH 80001366 HAQt 3d

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: sterling

355641.59
1000.00 356641.50
5200.00
1000.00

352441.59
 (hahi
ILTOH BOSS

31/10/94 BFIOOGHT R > W A F I O

16/11/94 16/11/94 IttlOOO
24/11/94 24/11/94 T£L EO» 9/7-fl/ll
24/11/94 24/11/94 ANS tJO* A/8/0
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ACCOUNT NUMBEft 8 0 0 0 1 3 8 6 PAflB 2 3
BAL^JCee SHOWN AftElN: 8terlit,tf
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BALANCES SHOWN ARE Mi sterling

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account NuaaEft aoooi386 20
BALANCES SHOWN Arte W; *terl

263315.22
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 0

HAMILTON DOSS
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30/04/95 BnouaHreonwAH0
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31/05/95 23/05/95 CQSGUOVf! TJBAVEL
31/05/95 23/05/95 TEL CttGS ACL
31/05/95 23/05/95 TEL CliGS ACL
31/05/95 31/05/95 TEL CHGS ACL
31/05/95 23/05/95 D KELLY

31/05/95
CARRIED FORWARD
 A/A30

ACCOUNT NUMBER 00001306 PAOE 29

BALANCES &H0MM AIRE IN: sterling

289565.22
123.34
5165.00
774.75 ,;u:v/4fi.ai
1488.18
123.34
109.75
124.36
3468.00

279150.08
 STATEMENT O F A C C O U N T

ILTOH BOSS
jSutti

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[16/06/95 06/06/95 HEV EUTliY
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 A/A30
ACCOUNTNUua£H 60001366 PAGE 30
MLANCeS SHOWN ARB Irt stafl Uig

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30/11/96
CARRIED FORWARD
 A/A30
ACCOUNTMJMdEA 80001386 HAGE 44
B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: TTTOR LJUIFI

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1000.00 359743.05

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\/V.u:

L. J ACCOUNT NUMBER 800013B6 PM»E

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: Sterling

FOHWARO
0.
1/10/92 30/ 9/92 MJVEKSAL 77092.34
1/10/92 1/10/92 COL HUT 98.68 76993.66
J0/10/92 30/10/92 LODGED 125.00
i0/10/92 30/10/92 LODGED 750.00

31/10/92 77860.6-
CARRIED FORWARD
 OfcSCW'MJN t.1 " ..I

DATE PARTICULARS vaLue date DEBIT

H A_: ",J /:••• At .V-if.. !'..;«I-.111 1 (J. |.,V\

01 r.l. P.i /
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CREDIT BALANCE

2t

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53. 1} 2,

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 uTbfiLi.r.
D£sammCALL : , i r o s J r A/C
DATE PARTICULARS VALUE DATE

30SLPi»7 CbAL'.UCt l.!»VI»IOHI hOriWAHv

?00CTU7 ORA'n'"
LEDGER —..DATE 30UCTA7

DEBIT CREDIT BALANCE

2,721.95
' jr. r iu
 L J ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001386
B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN:
p*GE
sterl ing
3

28/02/93 BROUGHT FORWARD 81725.74

11/03/93 31/03/93 LODGED 125.00
pl/03/93 31/03/93 LODGED 750.00. _ ,
fil/03/93 31/03/93 Interest to 31/03/93

Bl/03/93 83782.11
CARRIED F O R W A R D
j
 m«M
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Telex CP 305 Cable Addict Guiiintv,

A./VU.

L J ACCOUNT NUMBER 8 0 0 0 1 3 8 6 JPAGE

BALANCES SHOWN XWE IN: 61fer1 lag

11701753 HT FORWARD "SbflS&Tfr

!8/02/93 28/02/93 125.00
(8/02/93 28/02/93 LODGED 750.00

28/02/93 81725.74
V - CARRIED FORWARD
Appendix XV (17) (1) (g)
 a
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Appendix XV (18) Mr Cornelius Collins
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Cornelius Collins.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Cornelius Collins of 11 April 2000.

b) Letter of 4 April 2000 from Mr Collins to the Inspectors.

c) Letter of 9 December 1976from Mr John Furze to Mr Frank Lee.

d) Redhall Investments Ltd 1976 accounts & Redhall Trust documentation

e) Letter from Neil McCann to GMCT (undated).

f) Letter of 15 December 1976 from TR Leonard to JA Furze.

g) Telex of 17 November 1976from RU Leonard to JA Furze.

h) Letter of 29 June 1976 from Frank Lee to R Leonard.

i) Letter of 5 January 1973 from Alex Spain to Vincent Walsh, Arthur Cox
& Co.

j) Earl House Ltd - Extracts of Annual Returns 1972 & 1975.

Appendix XV (18) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. CORNELIUS COLLINS

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 11TH APRIL 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
 PRESENT

The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. CORNELIUS COLLINS

 I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION

MR. C. COLLINS MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MS. MACKEY
 1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,

2 11TH MARCH 2000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Collins, we will start

5 our interview then. My

6 name is Declan Costello and on my right is

7 Ms. Mackey. We are two of the Inspectors that have

8 been appointed by The High Court to carry out this

9 investigation.

10

11 I should explain to you Mr. Collins that this is not

12 a Court of law. It is not a Tribunal. It is an

13 interview. We are required by Order of the Court to

14 interview persons such as you. Under the Statute we

15 can do so under oath and we will require you to take

16 an oath. We are going to ask Ms. Cummins to

17 administer the oath to you. Perhaps, you would

18 take the oath now.

19 MR. COLLINS: Okay.

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

4
 1 MR. CORNELIUS COLLINS, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS

2 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Collins, I do not know

5 whether or not you have

6 taken any legal advice in relation to your

7 attendance here before us. However, I should

8 explain to you in case you have not that the Statute

9 places a duty on you to assist the Inspectors. Do

10 you understand that.

11 A. Absolutely.

12 1 Q. Are you prepared to assist us in

13 our...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. Absolutely.

15 2 Q. Mr. Collins, I want to refer you firstly to our

16 letter to you of the 20th January last, this was

17 this long letter (Exhibit 1)?

18 A. Right.

19 3 Q. If you look at page 7 of that long letter. It is

20 the beginning of Appendix C?

21 A. Yes.

22 4 Q. You were asked as follows:

23 "You should provide a full and detailed

statement of all the dealings which the
24 Company had with you, whether directly
or indirectly."
25

26 And it goes on to set out the Directors, in the

27 information. May I refer you to your letter of the

28 4th April?

29 A. Yes.

5
 1 5 Q. Have you got a copy of it there?

2 A. I have it here, yes.

3 6 Q. You see Mr. Collins I must suggest to you that that

4 is not a proper compliance with our request?

5 A. Well, I am sorry if it isn't but when I was setting

6 up this meeting, it may have been with you. I am

7 not quite sure what lady I spoke to. I was told

8 that I didn't even have to make a response.

9 7 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

10 A. Because I had a time difficulty.

11 8 Q. Yes?

12 A. I said I was tied up to a certain date. I then had

13 to consult with my legal advisor and then I had to

14 prepare this response.

15 9 Q. Yes?

16 A. And I was told that it wasn't necessary.

17 10 Q. What I must explain to you now is that we do require

18 a detailed statement from you?

19 A. Okay.

20 11 Q. And that your letter is just a very, very broad

21 outline of the fact that you had dealings with the

22 company. Can you do that for us?

23 A. Well, what I can do and what I thought I was doing

24 here today was to elaborate on this.

25 12 Q. No, no?

26 A. I don't have...(INTERJECTION).

27 13 Q. No. Of course you cannot do it today. However,

28 what I am saying is that unfortunately Mr. Collins,

29 because there has been non-compliance with our

6
 1 requirement, that unfortunately we have to only have

2 a preliminary meeting today and ask you to make a

3 full and detailed statement for us. Can you do

4 that?

5 A. I don't think I can in the absence of any records.

6 I don't have anything.

7 14 Q. Of course. Of course, you cannot do it today.

8 However, what I am asking you, what I am suggesting

9 to you, to Mr. Collins is that we need a detailed

10 statement, as required in this letter, of all your

11 dealings with the company?

12 A. I don't know if I can do that in all honesty.

13 15 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. I don't think I have -- I certainly have no records

15 available to me to enable me to do that.

16 16 Q. Mr. Collins, we must ask you to try to do it because

17 it is very important that our work is carried out in

18 a systematic way and if we do not get cooperation

19 from our witnesses, in the way we require it, we are

20 not going to be able to do our work properly?

21 A. Well, I am sorry. I took legal advice on this.

22 17 Q. Yes. I am now asking you Mr. Collins, are you

23 prepared to write out a detailed statement of

24 your dealings with the Guinness & Mahon, with

25 "Ansbacher", and its associated companies?

26 A. I am quite prepared and willing to give

27 anything that I am able to give.

28 18 Q. Very well?

29 A. In writing or any way.

 1 19 Q. Very well then. You will then, doing the best you

2 can?

3 A. Right.

4 20 Q. Give us a written statement?

5 A. Right.

6 21 Q. A detailed written statement as far as you can?

7 A. I will but again I have to say that without the

8 absence of records how detailed I can

9 get...(INTERJECTION).

10 22 Q. Very well. You will have to do the best you can?

11 A. It is the best of my recall.

12 23 Q. The best you can?

13 A. Okay.

14 24 Q. Very well. That being so I am afraid that we can

15 only go a certain distance today?

16 A. Okay.

17 25 Q. However, in our investigations, discussions, today

18 Mr. Collins we may be able to indicate to you the

19 sort of information that you...(INTERJECTION)?

20 A. Okay.

21 26 Q. That we will require in your statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 27 Q. The second thing Mr. Collins, in relation to the

24 letter and your response, was that, did we not make

25 it perfectly clear to you that we required you to

26 furnish us with all the documents that you had in

27 your possession?

28 A. You did.

29 28 Q. You have not done that?

8
 1 A. No, as I said here...(INTERJECTION).

2 29 Q. I know what you said Mr. Collins?

3 A. Right.

4 30 Q. Why have you not done that?

5 A. I thought, in fact, that you may have had from

6 Guinness & Mahon everything they had in relation to

7 my dealings with them.

8 31 Q. Why did you not give us the documents, all the

9 documents, you have in your power and possession

10 that we might require?

11 A. Because I don't think what I have are the complete

12 documents.

13 32 Q. I know that. However, we required very clearly, in

14 our letter to you, that you supply us with the

15 documents whether they are incomplete or complete we

16 require them?

17 A. Yes.

18 33 Q. Will you supply them to us?

19 A. Yes.

20 34 Q. Very well?

21 A. Sorry, can I make notes of your requests there?

22 35 Q. Yes.

23 A. I will use the back of this.

24 36 Q. Yes. I should make clear Mr. Collins that a

25 transcript of this interview will be made. We will

26 ask you to sign but it can be made available to you

27 if you require it?

28 A. I would, yes.

29 37 Q. So that you can have a full transcript.

9
 1 Unfortunately you have to pay for it but that is a

2 departmental rule?

3 A. Okay.

4 38 Q. Very well. I want to just ask you some questions

5 now and you can elaborate on it later in the

6 statement which we require. However, you say that

7 you had extensive dealings with Guinness & Mahon and

8 you had deposits in Cayman Trust, with Guinness

9 Mahon Cayman Trust?

10 A. Yes .

11 39 Q. Who was it who first introduced you to the

12 possibility of having deposits in Cayman Islands?

13 A. My advisors at all times were SKC.

14 40 Q. Yes. Who in SKC?

15 A. Alex Spain, Don Reid, John Callaghanyes. What about

16 Guinness & Mahon itself? What about Mr. Traynor.

17 A. No.

18 41 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Traynor then

19 about this?

20 A. About those deposits?

21 42 Q. No, just generally. I am just asking you generally

22 about using the facilities of these Cayman

23 companies ?

24 A. Yes, I had discussions over the years with -- I was

25 intensively involved with Guinness & Mahon.

26 43 Q. Yes?

27 A. So, I had discussions with Des from time to time.

28 44 Q. However, with regard to establishing the

29 relationship with the company in Cayman Islands, you

10
 1 did not have any discussions with Mr. Traynor?

2 A. Not initially. Not as they were being set up, no.

3 It was subsequent.

4 45 Q. Had you known Mr. Traynor?

5 A. No.

6 46 Q. It really was as a result of your discussions with

7 Stokes Kennedy Crowley that you...(INTERJECTION)?

8 A. Yes.

9 47 Q. Were they your own personal accountants as well

10 Mr. Collins, looking after your own affairs or were

11 they...(INTERJECTION)?

12 A. They were ultimately. In the early years I used

13 Austin Bradley & Co. In Cork.

14 48 Q. They were your accountants?

15 A. Were my accountants, yes.

16 49 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?

17 A. In the earlier years up to the mid 1960s I would

18 say.

19 50 Q. What I want to get clear is whether or not when

20 you started on this you were advised by

21 Stokes Kennedy Crowley, whom you have mentioned,

22 but did you go to anybody else to get further

23 advice about it?

24 A. No.

25 51 Q. You did not go to another accountant for example?

26 A. No, I didn't.

27 52 Q. You did not?

28 A. No.

29 53 Q. What about a solicitor? Did you go to a solicitor?

11
 1 A. I don't recall going to a solicitor.

2 54 Q. Tell me what was the arrangement that they were

3 proposing to you? What was the outline of it? Give

4 me an outline of what they were proposing you should

5 do?

6 A. What they were proposing was that -- I had funds and

7 assets abroad that had been gifted to me and the

8 advice given by SKC was that it would be better to

9 keep those there. They were (inaudible) off shore.

10 They had been returned. That was the advice.

11 55 Q. Be a little bit more specific? First all who was

12 the person, who was the relative, who gave you these

13 gifts?

14 A. An uncle of mine. His name was Neenan.

15 56 Q. Neenan, yes. What was his address?

16 A. He was West Eleven Street, New York City.

17 57 Q. So it was in America?

18 A. Yes.

19 58 Q. It was in America?

20 A. Yes.

21 59 Q. I want you to tell me now what were you advised

22 about the Cayman Islands?

23 A. I was advised to keep these funds off shore. That

24 was when...(INTERJECTION).

25 60 Q. What did that mean?

26 A. Out of Ireland.

27 61 Q. Out of Ireland?

28 A. That is what it meant to me.

29 62 Q. Yes?

12
 1 A. They were already in the US.

2 63 Q. Yes?

3 A. And...(INTERJECTION).

4 64 Q. Was this for tax purposes you were advised?

5 A. No. Well, taxation levels here were pretty severe.

6 65 Q. I know that. However, was that why they said?

7 A. Ultimately. Ultimately, it would have been to

8 protect those assets, yes.

9 66 Q. From the taxation point of view?

10 A. Well, reinvesting time here, I think was their

11 attitude, would have been not as productive as it

12 would have been.

13 67 Q. No. I am not raising any criticism. I just want to

14 try out the facts?

15 A. Yes.

16 68 Q. The facts were that you were advised that for tax

17 purposes it was better not to bring them to Ireland,

18 was that it or am I wrong?

19 A. Well, now just to be clear on what I am saying.

20 69 Q. Yes?

21 A. That these were in the main US equities. The

22 dividends came to me here. They were returned every

23 year and tax was paid on them.

24 70 Q. Yes?

25 A. The advice I was given was that it mightn't be that

26 productive to bring the assets back for investment

27 here, in that the taxation climate was not conducive

28 to investment.

29 71 Q. Then did you continue to get the dividends then?

13
 1 A. Until the time I sold them.

2 72 Q. When was that?

3 A. I would say that was some time in the mid 1970s.

4 That is when the deposits arose.

5 73 Q. Can you just tell me now, did they give you any

6 advice about establishing a trust?

7 A. I am sure they did but trust in the complete sense,

8 no.

9 74 Q. No, no. Just tell me what they said?

10 A. What they said?

11 75 Q. Yes?

12 A. Essentially to keep it there.

13 76 Q. No, no. About the trust Mr. Collins?

14 A. The trust?

15 77 Q. Yes?

16 A. I can't recall anything specific about a trust.

17 78 Q. Unspecific then. Just generally, did they advise

18 you about it?

19 A. They certainly advised me about setting up a trust

20 for my kids which didn't involve these.

21 79 Q. Yes. Where?

22 A. Here.

23 80 Q. In Ireland?

24 A. Yes.

25 81 Q. What about the Cayman Islands? Did they advise you

26 about setting up a trust in the Cayman Islands?

27 A. I can't recall that. I can't recall a specific

28 trust in the Cayman Islands, no.

29 82 Q. Are you sure of that Mr. Collins because we are

14
 1 aware that Stokes Kennedy Crowley had advised other

2 people about the establishment of trusts in the

3 Cayman Islands at this time?

4 A. I am not sure of it.

5 83 Q. You are not sure?

6 A. I am not sure.

7 84 Q. It is possible they did?

8 A. Yes. I simply don't recall.

9 85 Q. Sorry?

10 A. I simply don't recall.

11 86 Q. You do not recall it?

12 A. No.

13 87 Q. Do you recall what was involved in it, the type of

14 trust that would be set up?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 88 Q. Do you recall any reference to discretionary trusts

17 being set up?

18 A. Discretionary?

19 89 Q. Yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 90 Q. You do recall that?

22 A. Yes.

23 91 Q. Tell me what you recall?

24 A. I recall the word discretionary trust.

25 92 Q. That they said?

26 A. Yes.

27 93 Q. You could establish in the Cayman Islands?

28 A. I can't honestly say that that it was specifically

29 the Cayman Islands. I know that I set up a trust

15
 1 here which was a discretionary trust.

2 94 Q. No, no. I am not interested about here at all

3 Mr. Collins. We are talking about the Cayman

4 Islands. We are talking about the fact that you

5 had deposits in Cayman and you said this arose

6 as a result of advice you obtained from

7 Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

8 A. Yes.

9 95 Q. I am asking you now about what they said to you

10 about discretionary trusts in the Cayman Islands?

11 A. I can't recall what they said to me.

12 96 Q. But something?

13 A. About discretionary trusts in the Cayman Islands.

14 97 Q. But something?

15 A. Yes, it does.

16 98 Q. Can you recall whether they indicated to you what a

17 discretionary trust was?

18 A. They must have.

19 99 Q. Why must they have?

20 A. Well, they would hardly outline it to me without

21 explaining it.

22 100 Q. Had you ever come across a discretionary trust

23 yourself before that?

24 A. No.

25 101 Q. Can you remember any other details they gave you for

26 example about who would execute the Deed?

27 A. No, I don't.

28 102 Q. You do not recall them indicating that the Deed

29 would not be executed, need not be executed, by you

16
 1 but it could be executed by somebody in the Cayman

2 Islands?

3 A. I don't recall that.

4 103 Q. You do not recall that. You do not recall any of

5 the details about that?

6 A. I don't, no.

7 104 Q. Mary, page 75 please. I want you to look at some

8 correspondence, a letter. It is page 69 (Same

9 Handed) (Exhibit 2)?

10 A. Yes.

11 105 Q. This is addressed to Mr. Frank Lee at Westboro,

12 Montenotte, Cork, Ireland. Who is Mr. Lee?

13 A. Mr. Lee worked for me at my office at Westboro.

14 106 Q. What was he?

15 A. He was a Financial Officer.

16 107 Q. Was he an accountant or anything?

17 A. Well, he never qualified.

18 108 Q. But he was...(INTERJECTION)?

19 A. He was a -- you know.

20 109 Q. He acted as an accountant?

21 A. He acted as an accountant.

22 110 Q. Yes. Was Westboro your offices?

23 A. Yes. That was the name of the house.

24 111 Q. It was your house, was it?

25 A. No.

26 112 Q. Sorry. It was the name of the house in which the

27 business...(INTERJECTION)?

28 A. It is where my office was, yes.

29 113 Q. Where your office was?

17
 1 A. Yes.

2 114 Q. Very well. You see this refers to a trust "Redhall

3 Trust" and "Redhall Investment Limited"?

4 A. Yes.

5 115 Q. Would you tell me about that?

6 A. I recall those. I assume they were used to hold

7 some of those deposits.

8 116 Q. No, no. Tell me about it? Tell me about Redhall

9 Trust?

10 A. I recognise the name.

11 117 Q. However, tell me more than that. How was it that it

12 came to be established in the Cayman Islands?

13 A. I assume by SKC. There were a lot of companies

14 effectively pulled off shelves. That was one of

15 them. I remember the name.

16 118 Q. Tell me about it then? What do you remember about

17 it?

18 A. I assume it held monies on deposit belonging to me.

19 119 Q. Pardon?

20 A. I assume it held monies on deposit belonging to me.

21 120 Q. What monies?

22 A. The proceeds of the sale of US securities.

23 121 Q. Perhaps, you would tell me then a bit about that.

24 This was apparently a trust established, was it?

25 A. I don't recall it as such as a trust.

26 122 Q. Yes. However, it must have got

27 some...(INTERJECTION)?

28 A. It... (INTERJECTION) .

29 123 Q. It must have got funds. I mean look at

18
 1 the...(INTERJECTION)?

2 A. Yes.

3 124 Q. Look over the page?

4 A. Right.

5 125 Q. You see the accounts over the page?

6 A. Yes.

7 126 Q. Balance sheet, profits it made in 1975/1976?

8 A. Yes.

9 127 Q. Tell me about how it was established Mr. Collins?

10 A. I assume it was established between SKC and

11 Guinness & Mahon.

12 128 Q. Yes. Mr. Lee or you got accounts about it?

13 A. Yes.

14 129 Q. Where did it get its funds from?

15 A. From me.

16 130 Q. Do you recall what funds you gave it and when?

17 A. Specifically, no, but they would have been the sale

18 of US securities.

19 131 Q. You sold US securities?

20 A. Sold some.

21 132 Q. Some?

22 A. If not all at some stage, yes, securities.

23 133 Q. Some of the securities then were sold and were

24 deposited then or transferred to Guinness Mahon

25 Cayman Trust Limited?

26 A. Yes.

27 134 Q. Did you know Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited was

28 a trustee company?

29 A. Yes, I must have.

19
 1 135 Q. You must have. Can you explain to me how this

2 Redhall Trust was established and apparently

3 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was managing it?

4 A. It would have been established by SKC in conjunction

5 with Guinness & Mahon.

6 136 Q. On your instructions?

7 A. Yes, on the foot of their advice.

8 137 Q. Yes. You did instruct them to so establish it?

9 A. Yes.

10 138 Q. Can you remember that now?

11 A. Instructing them?

12 139 Q. Yes?

13 A. What I can remember is the advice being given and

14 accepted and, "Yes, go ahead."

15 140 Q. What was the advice?

16 A. The advice was to keep the monies out of Ireland.

17 141 Q. No, no. It is much more specific than that. What

18 advice were you given and you said, "Go ahead", in

19 relation to the establishment of the Redhall Trust?

20 A. The advice I was given I assume was to do it in this

21 manner.

22 142 Q. What manner?

23 A. They already had...(INTERJECTION).

24 143 Q. What manner?

25 A. Setting up this trust.

26 144 Q. Yes?

27 A. Or deposit.

28 145 Q. No, no?

29 A. With Guinness & Mahon.

20
 1 146 Q. No, no. Let us not -- let us be more specific?

2 A. Right.

3 147 Q. You do not set up a deposit. You put money on

4 deposit. Was this not a trust established

5 Mr. Collins?

6 A. I can't honestly say it was. A trust is something

7 that goes on.

8 148 Q. What can you honestly say then?

9 A. It was a vehicle to take monies that I gave it for

10 deposit.

11 149 Q. As far as you know then was that money was on

12 deposit?

13 A. Yes .

14 150 Q. Would you have a look at the accounts?

15 A. Yes .

16 151 Q. Where does it show in these accounts that the

17 Redhall Trust had money on deposit? Would you look

18 at the last page or the second last page. Yes, the

19 last page. It is The Redhall Trust statement of

20 affairs. It is capital 1,064.45. The assets: 100

21 shares in Redhall Investments. 1,000 shares in

22 Agar International and the current account. That is

23 the trust?

24 A. Yes .

25 152 Q. Is that not so?

26 A. That is what it says, yes.

27 153 Q. There was a trust and that is the statement of

28 affairs of the trust in 1976?

29 A. Obviously.
 1 154 Q. Obviously?

2 A. Yes.

3 155 Q. Then it appears that the trust held 100 shares in

4 Redhall Investments?

5 A. Yes.

6 156 Q. It looks then as if Redhall Investments then was the

7 vehicle which carried on, held, the funds, is that

8 not so?

9 A. Yes.

10 157 Q. What was Agar International Limited?

11 A. Agar I think was another company set up, just

12 holding deposits.

13 158 Q. Holding deposits?

14 A. Yes.

15 159 Q. Where were the deposits?

16 A. Pardon?

17 160 Q. Where were the deposits?

18 A. I presume GMCT.

19 161 Q. Yes. Who was the beneficial owner of these funds?

20 A. I had funds and a brother of mine had funds there.

21 162 Q. No, these particular ones?

22 A. Yes.

23 163 Q. That were being sent to Mr. Frank Lee on your

24 behalf?

25 A. I think...(INTERJECTION).

26 164 Q. Who owned these?

27 A. I think Agar, in fact, was my brothers.

28 165 Q. Yes?

29 A. I think.

22
 1 166 Q. And the other company was yours, was it?

2 A. Redhall, is it?

3 167 Q. Yes?

4 A. I would think so, yes.

5 168 Q. Yes. Is that Dr. Collins, your brother?

6 A. Yes.

7 169 Q. Can I refer you back to your letter in reply to us,

8 of the 4th April. You see over the page (Exhibit

9 3) :

10 "With regard to specific queries raised

in Appendix C the following is the
11 situation to the best of my knowledge"

12

13

14 and then number one. Number one Mr. Collins was in

15 answer to the question:

16 "If you caused to be executed a Deed of

Trust or other instrument with the
17 Cayman Islands."

18

19 A. Yes.

20 170 Q. And you say:

21 "A trust, Lynbrett, was set up by G & M

in the early 1980s."
22

23 And then you finish by saying:

24 "I am not aware of any other trust."

25

26 That is not correct, is it?

27 A. No, it is not, no.

28 171 Q. Yes?

29 A. No.

23
 1 172 Q. How did it come about that an incorrect statement

2 was made?

3 A. Because I was mistaken. I didn't recall it.

4 173 Q. You did not recall it?

5 A. No.

6 174 Q. Are there any other trusts, besides the Redhall

7 Trust, that you think may have been established in

8 the Cayman Islands?

9 A. I am not aware. All I know is that companies like

10 Redhall Trust -- I don't think they ever operated as

11 trusts in my understanding. Nothing was ever left

12 there after the mid to late 1970s.

13 175 Q. Have you talked to any of the accountants who were

14 involved in assisting you at this time about this

15 requirement that we had of you and the fact that you

16 had to give evidence here?

17 A. No.

18 176 Q. Would you try to get assistance for them as to what

19 was done?

20 A. Yes, but as you know they are -- well, sorry, maybe

21 you don't know. They are not with SKC any longer.

22 177 Q. No. They are retired?

23 A. Yes.

24 178 Q. However, they are available?

25 A. Yes.

26 179 Q. Mr. Spain is available?

27 A. Right.

28 180 Q. Will you...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. Yes.

24
 1 181 Q. Do you think you could get assistance from them?

2 A. I am quite sure.

3 182 Q. In detailing to us the trusts that were established?

4 A. Right.

5 183 Q. Have you contacted "Ansbacher" itself and asked them

6 for any documents?

7 A. I have numerous unanswered written requests to

8 "Ansbacher" -- sorry, Guinness & Mahon.

9 184 Q. In Dublin?

10 A. In Dublin.

11 185 Q. What about "Ansbacher"?

12 A. No.

13 186 Q. You have not written to them?

14 A. No.

15 187 Q. Could I suggest Mr. Collins that you should write to

16 them and ask them for their records in relation

17 to the dealings which you had with them and any

18 correspondence they may have in relation to those

19 dealings including the establishment of trusts?

20 A. Okay.

21 188 Q. What I would like you to do also Mr. Collins is to

22 give us details about all of the other companies

23 that were established by you or on your behalf in

24 the Cayman Islands, and their relationship with this

25 trust. Who owned the shares? Can you remember now

26 some of the names of these companies who were

27 established in the Cayman Islands?

28 A. Ponderosa was a name I remember. There were a few,

29 you know, if I heard them I...(INTERJECTION).

 1 189 Q. Tamarin Holdings?

2 A. Tamarin, yes.

3 190 Q. Holdings?

4 A. Yes.

5 191 Q. Cayman Realtor?

6 A. Who?

7 192 Q. Cayman Realtor(sic)?

8 A. Realtor, is it?

9 193 Q. Yes?

10 A. I remember that, yes, yes.

11 194 Q. Yes. Neptune Investments?

12 A. Yes.

13 195 Q. Agar Investments?

14 A. Yes.

15 196 Q. Delta Investments?

16 A. No. I see it here but that does not ring a bell

17 with me, Delta.

18 197 Q. You have mentioned Ponderosa. What about "Seine", a

19 company called Seine?

20 A. How do you spell that?

21 198 Q. S-e-i-n-e, a French river apparently?

22 A. No.

23 199 Q. There may be others. However, we would ask you to

24 explain to us when these companies were established;

25 what they were established for; and what their

26 relationship were with -- who owned the shares in

27 these companies; and what their relationships were

28 with any trust that was established. Mr. Collins,

29 one of the questions that we raised with you was the

26
 1 use of deposits in the name of Guinness Mahon Cayman

2 Trust, and later "Ansbacher", in Guinness Mahon here

3 in Ireland as security for loans to you or your

4 company. Do you remember that question?

5 A. I do.

6 200 Q. Yes. Could I just refer you to your answer. It is

7 the second page. Sorry, it is number four on the

8 second page (Exhibit 3)?

9 A. Yes.

10 201 Q. That is in answer, if you turn back to the long

11 letter, to page 12 of the long letter (Exhibit 1)?

12 A. Yes.

13 202 Q. It reads:

14 "Another service apparently offered by

the Company in relation to deposits
15 maintained with it by Irish residents
was as follows:-
16
Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Ltd
17 provided loan and guarantee facilities
to Irish residents or to bodies
18 corporate which they controlled or in
which they had an interest secured by
19 cash deposits with the Company. It
appears to have been an important
20 feature of this service that this
security was not referred to in the
21 loan agreement."

22

23 You are very familiar I am sure with this concept of

24 back to back?

25 A. Yes.

26 203 Q. And cash secured?

27 A. Yes.

28 204 Q. Your answer to that was:

29 "I did not avail of this service"?

27
 1

2 A. I don't recall availing of any back to back service.

3 205 Q. I think, again, Mr. Collins that your memory is

4 incorrect?

5 A. Okay.

6 206 Q. Mr. Collins, we have a document prepared by

7 Guinness & Mahon, which is their management report

8 of the 31st October 1974, and it refers to all loans

9 which were, in the phrase that they use, "suitably

10 secured" and it gives you and as "Mr. C. J.

11 Collins," as "£301,000". Can you remember getting a

12 loan from Guinness & Mahon in October 1974 of that

13 amount (Exhibit 4)?

14 A. No, I can't.

15 207 Q. You cannot?

16 A. No.

17 208 Q. Our investigations indicate that in the

18 Guinness & Mahon records where the phrase "suitable

19 secured" appears that this means that it was cash

20 backed by a deposit in the Cayman Islands?

21 A. No.

22 209 Q. You have no recollection of that?

23 A. No.

24 210 Q. I want you to refer to another document on page 45.

25 Have you got that (Same handed) (Exhibit 5)?

26 A. Yes .

27 211 Q. Mr. Collins, I just want to explain to you about

28 this document. This is an internal memorandum from

29 Guinness & Mahon to The Central Bank?

 1 A. Right.

2 212 Q. It refers to you at the top?

3 A. Yes.

4 213 Q. I should tell you that it is dated -- it is not from

5 this document but it is February 197 6:

6 "Neil Collins - £324,000.

7 Mr. Collins is a close business

colleague..."
8

9 And he sets out your relationship there. Then it

10 goes on:

11 "...The loan is for personal reasons

and is secured by a deposit (held by
12 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company
Limited) equal in amount to the balance
13 of the loan"?

14

15 A. Well, all I can say to you is that they are totally

16 wrong on the first statement that they have made in

17 that.

18 214 Q. Yes?

19 A. So, maybe they are incorrect in the second one as

20 well. I don't recall.

21 215 Q. You do not recall it?

22 A. No.

23 216 Q. Did you get a loan at that time...(INTERJECTION)?

24 A. If I had a loan, yes, I did.

25 217 Q. You did?

26 A. Yes.

27 218 Q. Was it in that region of that, £300,000?

28 A. I don't recall. I want to know the circumstances.

29 If I knew what the loan was for I could be quite

29
 1 specific.

2 219 Q. I know it is very hard to remember back Mr. Collins?

3 A. Yes.

4 220 Q. However, is a substantial sum of money. It says

5 here that it was required for personal reasons.

6 Could there have been other loans that you obtained

7 from Guinness & Mahon at that time?

8 A. I had a lot of dealings with Guinness & Mahon in the

9 1970s, into the very early 1980s.

10 221 Q. Yes. However, of a personal loan to yourself?

11 A. 1974.

12 MS. MACKEY: 1976.

13 A. 1976. I know I bought a farm in Cork sometime in

14 the 1970s. It could have been that. I am not sure.

15 222 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It could have been that?

16 A. Maybe the personal level would suggest that it was

17 something like that.

18 223 Q. You cannot remember if you got a loan for that

19 purpose. You cannot remember what security you

20 would have given?

21 A. No, I would have thought that it would have been

22 secured on the Deeds of the farm itself.

23 224 Q. Yes?

24 A. I know I had two banks involved in that. One

25 was AIB.

26 225 Q. If this statement is not incorrect?

27 A. Yes.

28 226 Q. This is a statement made by Guinness & Mahon to The

29 Central Bank stating that there was a loan for

30
 1 personal use and secured by a deposit of Cayman,

2 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company?

3 A. Right.

4 227 Q. You do not remember that?

5 A. I don't.

6 228 Q. Yes. Did you know Mr. Collins that you had in

7 Guinness & Mahon here in Dublin -- that there were

8 coded accounts in your name?

9 A. Coded?

10 229 Q. Coded accounts, yes?

11 A. No, I don't know that.

12 230 Q. Have you learned it since?

13 A. No.

14 231 Q. Did you know that there were a number of accounts

15 which related to you as sub-accounts of a main

16 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust account, later

17 "Ansbacher" account, in Guinness & Mahon here in

18 Dublin?

19 A. No.

20 232 Q. You did not?

21 A. No.

22 233 Q. What we will require Mr. Collins from you is details

23 along the lines we have indicated, along the lines I

24 have indicated, to you. However, I would like you

25 to also deal in your statement with more recent

26 developments. You say you had very considerable

27 dealings with Guinness & Mahon here in Ireland?

28 A. Yes .

29 234 Q. What I am, what we are, concerned about, of course,

 1 is insofar as those relations had involved the

2 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. We wish particulars in

3 relation to that. Do you understand that?

4 A. I do.

5 235 Q. In that connection we sent you a letter

6 recently about Mr. Neil McCann, a letter signed

7 by Mr. Neil McCann. Do you remember?

8 A. I got that last Friday (Exhibit 6).

9 236 Q. Yes?

10 A. So, it didn't give me time to respond.

11 237 Q. Yes. What can you -- how can you help us on that?

12 A. I presume that was an investment I made

13 in Dundalk Shopping Centre. Alex Spain and

14 Phil Monahan were shareholders.

15 238 Q. Sorry, will you just take it slowly?

16 A. Okay.

17 239 Q. What year was this?

18 A. I will have to be guided by his letter now.

19 240 Q. No, I am afraid not because there is not a date

20 there?

21 A. I would say mid 1970s.

22 241 Q. Yes. What was the development Mr. Collins?

23 A. This was a property company that they were jointly

24 involved in with Neil McCann. They developed

25 shopping centres in Dundalk and Athlone.

26 242 Q. Do you remember the name of the company?

27 A. I think it was Dundalk Shopping Centre Limited.

28 243 Q. Yes. Tell me what happened?

29 A. Well, for whatever reason known to Neil McCann and

32
 1 the others he was exiting the company.

2 244 Q. Yes?

3 A. And they put a proposal to me.

4 Alex Spain...(INTERJECTION).

5 245 Q. Who did?

6 A. Alex Spain and Phil Monahan put a proposal to me,

7 Alex was shareholder and advisor to both and to

8 Neil McCann I gather, to buy a block of shares in

9 this company, which I did.

10 24 6 Q. Which company?

11 A. In Dundalk Shopping Centre Limited.

12 247 Q. Yes?

13 A. I bought shares. I know nothing about Blue Limited

14 or any of that.

15 248 Q. This was a letter authorising you to transfer to

16 Neil Collins or his nominees the entire share

17 capital of Blue Limited?

18 A. Right.

19 249 Q. Did this not happen then?

20 A. I got the shares in Dundalk Shopping Centre Limited,

21 which is what I purchased.

22 250 Q. Yes. What about the company Blue Limited

23 in...(INTERJECTION)?

24 A. I am afraid Alex Spain or Neil McCann are the only

25 people -- I certainly don't.

26 251 Q. You know nothing about that?

27 A. Nothing whatsoever.

28 252 Q. Yes?

29 A. I never even heard of the name.

33
 1 253 Q. Mr. Spain then was involved in this in advising you

2 and advising Mr. McCann as well I take it?

3 A. Yes, and himself.

4 254 Q. And himself, yes?

5 A. And I never met Mr. McCann during that time.

6 255 Q. Did you know him in fact?

7 A. At that time, no. I meet him subsequently.

8 256 Q. Yes. It would appear Mr. Collins that you

9 were associated with a company called

10 Broadway Securities Limited. Do you

11 remember...(INTERJECTION)?

12 A. I remember the name, yes.

13 257 Q. What was it?

14 A. I think Broadway was a company set up by Guinness &

15 Mahon where we joint ventured on a property purchase

16 in the US.

17 258 Q. Yes?

18 A. I think it was a site which ultimately was never

19 developed but sold on.

20 259 Q. Yes.

21 A. At a loss.

22 260 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?

23 A. I think that was Broadway.

24 261 Q. What was your interest in Broadway do you remember?

25 A. Specifically, no, I don't. It was a joint venture

26 with Guinness & Mahon.

27 262 Q. Yes. Can you tell me also, and also develop in your

28 statement, the undertaking called Gene Morris & Co.

29 Ltd., in Georgia in the USA, your relations with

34
 1 that?

2 A. That was another joint venture between myself and

3 Guinness & Mahon.

4 263 Q. Yes?

5 A. That was a retail store or stores.

6 264 Q. Yes. What was your involvement in that Mr. Collins?

7 A. Shareholder.

8 265 Q. In what?

9 A. In Gene Morris & Co.

10 266 Q. Was it not a company called Spartacus Holdings

11 Limited?

12 A. Right.

13 267 Q. Involved in that?

14 A. Yes.

15 268 Q. You see Mr. Collins we will want you to give us full

16 information about all of these transactions?

17 A. Yes.

18 269 Q. Tell me about Spartacus Holdings?

19 A. It was another shelf company that I used that came

20 from...(INTERJECTION).

21 270 Q. Tell me how you used it? What did you use it for?

22 A. I certainly used it for some investments as the

23 vehicle.

24 271 Q. Yes. You were the owner of the company?

25 A. Yes.

26 272 Q. Do you know when it was established?

27 A. Not without the record I don't.

28 273 Q. You could make enquiries, could you not?

29 A. Yes.

35
 1 274 Q. Yes. I take it you could make enquiries in the

2 Cayman Islands if necessary to find out when these

3 different entities were established?

4 A. This would have come through SKC.

5 275 Q. SKC can help you?

6 A. Yes.

7 276 Q. Yes. When you say "This would have come

8 through SKC", Spartacus Holdings?

9 A. Most of those names and companies.

10 277 Q. Yes?

11 A. Began life with SKC.

12 278 Q. Yes. It was on their advice then?

13 A. Yes.

14 279 Q. You can then contact them and see what -- how they

15 can help you?

16 A. Yes.

17 280 Q. Perhaps Mr. Collins we might take a break now if

18 that suits you for a cup of coffee? Would that be

19 all right?

20 A. Fine.

21 281 Q. About 10 minutes or so?

22 A. Okay. Will I stay here?

23 282 Q. If you would. Yes, if you would not mind we will go

24 out.

25 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

26

27 283 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Collins, just a few

28 more questions, am I

29 correct in saying that the company that you were

36
 1 involved in was called Westboro Investments Limited?

2 A. Yes.

3 284 Q. Was it an Irish registered company?

4 A. Yes.

5 285 Q. You obtained loans, I think, from Guinness Mahon

6 here in Ireland in respect of that?

7 A. Yes.

8 286 Q. So, that company had no involvement with the Cayman

9 Island account?

10 A. No, but it may have had investments jointly with

11 Guinness Mahon going through the exchange control

12 regulations in the US. Directly with Cayman, no.

13 287 Q. Directly with Cayman, no?

14 A. No.

15 288 Q. I would also require, Mr. Collins, a detailed

16 statement that we would like you to give us. Your

17 relationship with Ascot Security Limited?

18 A. Yes.

19 289 Q. This was a company, I think, which bought shares in

20 Atlantic Resources?

21 A. Yes.

22 290 Q. Were you a director of Atlantic Resources?

23 A. Yes.

24 291 Q. I would like you to give us a full account of that

25 and also any documentation that you may be able to

26 get from Stokes Kennedy Crowley if they were

27 involved in relation to that?

28 A. Yes.

29 292 Q. Can you tell me what you recall now of the Lynbrett

37
 1 Trust?

2 A. Lynbrett was set up by Guinness & Mahon. There was

3 a property development in Arizona that five

4 individuals got involved in, and I was one of them.

5 Guinness & Mahon set up the trust.

6 293 Q. Well, we can just pause there?

7 A. Yes.

8 294 Q. It was a trust, there was a declaration of trust

9 made by Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Limited?

10 A. Yes.

11 295 Q. The company in the Cayman Islands?

12 A. Right.

13 296 Q. Do you know whether your advisors were involved in

14 drafting that trust or negotiating the drafting of

15 the trust?

16 A. I do not think so, unless they were used by one of

17 the other four individuals, but I do not recall.

18 297 Q. Indeed one of the companies named as a beneficiary

19 of the trust was Spartacus Holdings Limited?

20 A. Yes.

21 298 Q. That is your company?

22 A. That is my company, yes.

23 299 Q. That was registered in the Cayman Islands?

24 A. I can't honestly say whether it was or not, but it

25 was my company.

26 300 Q. Who could say?

27 A. SKC.

28 301 Q. You will find out from them?

29 A. Yes.

38
 1 302 Q. This was a very big property development. Did you

2 have anybody advising you on the establishment of

3 the legal documents that were involved?

4 A. On the development itself?

5 303 Q. No, no, on this trust deed that was to be

6 established and the relationship between each of the

7 other people involved here and in Ireland. Did you

8 have no legal advisor?

9 A. I am trying to think. I did not have any legal

10 advisor in the setting up of that trust. I did not

11 take legal advice on that.

12 304 Q. Did you leave it then to one of your colleagues to

13 do?

14 A. That is my recall, yes.

15 305 Q. Who was that? Which of your colleagues was that?

16 A. It would probably have been Clayton Love or Hugh

17 Coveney.

18 306 Q. Yes. Now, there was a company called Eclipse

19 Holdings Limited, that was one of the beneficiaries?

20 A. Yes.

21 307 Q. Was that Mr. Coveney's company?

22 A. I do not know.

23 308 Q. You do not remember?

24 A. I do not know. I remember the name. I do not know

25 whose company it was.

26 309 Q. Yale Securities?

27 A. I do not know.

28 310 Q. You do not know whose company?

29 A. No.

39
 1 311 Q. Who were the people that were - who were your 4

2 partners in this?

3 A. Love.

4 312 Q. What were the names?

5 A. Coveney...(INTERJECTION).

6 313 Q. Sorry?

7 A. Clayton Love.

8 314 Q. Yes?

9 A. Hugh Coveney.

10 315 Q. Yes.

11 A. Pat Dineen and Frank Boland.

12 316 Q. Frank Boland?

13 A. Boland.

14 317 Q. Not Mr. Ferguson?

15 A. No.

16 318 Q. Any of the interest that may have been earned on

17 accounts with which you were interested in here in

18 Ireland, were they returned for tax purposes to the

19 Irish Revenue Authorities?

20 A. The accounts here in Ireland?

21 319 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes, everything was.

23 320 Q. You say you did not know anything about an interest

24 in deposits that Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust may

25 have had in Ireland? You would not have returned

26 any interest on any deposit which was not in, which

27 was in the name of the Cayman company?

28 A. No.

29 321 Q. So, the sub-accounts that I have referred to, any

40
 1 interest on those would not have been returned by

2 you?

3 A. No, not by me. I am not aware of sub-accounts.

4 322 Q. Yes. Well, what about the income that was earned on

5 the companies in trusts that you had an interest in

6 in Cayman Islands, were they returned here to the

7 Irish Revenue?

8 A. I do not think so, no.

9 323 Q. So, Kennedy Crowley were looking after your affairs?

10 A. Yes .

11 324 Q. Very well, Mr. Collins, that is all I have to ask

12 you. Ms. Mackey may have a few questions?

13 A. Okay.

14 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. CORNELIUS COLLINS BY

15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

41
 1 MR. CORNELIUS COLLINS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY

2 MS. MACKEY:

4 325 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Collins, I would just

5 like you to look again at

6 a document we have already asked you to look at. It

7 is page 69 and 70. The letter is to Frank Lee from

8 Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust (Exhibit 2)?

9 A. Yes .

10 326 Q. Of 9th December 1976?

11 A. Right.

12 327 Q. If you go down to the third paragraph on the first

13 page which starts "the accompanying Profit and Loss

14 Account." Do you see that?

15 A. Yes .

16 328 Q. It says: "It is shows merely two items," one is the

17 book profit on exchange resulting from a

18 revaluation of the dollars.

19 "The other item on the Profit and Loss

Account is the interest earned on the
20 A/X-4 deposit account prior to the
conversion ever the balance of the
21 account into US dollars."

22

23 Do you know what the A/X-4 deposit account is?

24 A. No.

25 329 Q. Well, if you turn over the page, and you look again

26 at the second last paragraph. It refers there:

27

28 "Finally, I would mention that there is

a small overdraft on the bank account
29 of Redhall Trust, and as they will be
expenses over the next two months..."
 2 Etc., etc.,

3 "I propose instructing Ru Leonard,"

5 do you know who Ru Leonard is?

6 A. Yes.

7 330 Q. In Guinness & Mahon?

8 A. Yes.

9 331 Q.

10 "I propose instructing Ru Leonard to

close the A/X-4 call deposit account
11 remitting those funds to us for credit
to the current account of Redhall
12 Investments Limited. I take it this
action meets with your approval."
13

14 Now, does it not appear from that that the A/X-4

15 call deposit account is an account in Guinness &

16 Mahon in Dublin with Mr. Leonard was being

17 instructed to close?

18 A. It does.

19 332 Q. Yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 333 Q. Does it not appear that it is an account over which

22 Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust had some power?

23 A. It would appear, yeah.

24 334 Q. Does it not appear also that the funds in that

25 account appear to belong to Redhall Investments

26 Limited since they are being used to paythe

27 overdraft on the bank account?

28 A. Yes.

29 335 Q. So in short, does it not seem that this is one of

43
 1 the current accounts here in "Ansbacher", here in

2 Guinness & Mahon, and that it related to your Trust

3 Redhall Trust?

4 A. It does.

5 336 Q. Yes. As you can see from that it appears that

6 interest arose on it, and in fact if you now look at

7 another document. This is page 77. That as you

8 will see is a letter in response from Ru Leonard in

9 Guinness & Mahon to Mr. Furze dated 15th December

10 (Exhibit 7)?

11 A. Yes.

12 337 Q. Headed Re Rental and Investments, and it is very

13 short, and after thanking him for his letter

14 together with enclosures he said:

15 "As requested I attach draft in the sum

of dollars 79,477 representing
16 principle plus interest to date on the
A/X-4 deposit.
17

18 A. Yes.

19 338 Q. So, it is clear that the funds in the A/X-4 deposit

20 included interest which had accrued?

21 A. Yes.

22 339 Q. I think you have already told us that you did not

23 return to the Revenue any interest that may have

24 arisen on any ...(INTERJECTION)?

25 A. Not to my knowledge, no. Coded accounts mean

26 nothing to me.

27 340 Q. Very good. Can you tell us anything about a company

28 called Whitehall?

29 A. Whitehall?

44
 1 341 Q. Yes.

2 A. Yes. The name again, yes.

3 342 Q. What is that?

4 A. It is one of the names that would have emanated from

5 SKC again, and I remember the name Whitehall.

6 343 Q. Was it a company that you used for any purpose?

7 A. I remember the name. What it was used for I

8 honestly cannot say.

9 344 Q. Very well. Maybe when you are doing the statement

10 you can check up on that one as well?

11 A. Yes.

12 345 Q. Yes. Just going back to your own statement for a

13 moment, you say in the third paragraph down, you

14 have it do you (Exhibit 3)?

15 A. Yes.

16 346 Q. On the first page:

17 "I had deposits with Guinness & Mahon

Cayman Trust for a time during the mid
18 ' 70 ' s. "

19

20 A. Yes.

21 347 Q. Now, can you be more specific with regard to dates

22 there. When they began and when they ended?

23 A. I can't. I would have to refer to the records

24 again.

25 348 Q. How did they end? What brought them to an end?

26 A. They were either invested or withdrawn from Guinness

27 & Mahon and used elsewhere.

28 349 Q. Do you have documents relating to the closing of

29 those accounts and all the documents that you will

45
 1 be providing to us?

2 A. I do not but, GMCT or Guinness & Mahon should have.

3 350 Q. So, you say they were either invested or withdrawn

4 by you?

5 A. Yes.

6 351 Q. Do you recollect withdrawing them?

7 A. Not specifically, no, but I know that - I would have

8 thought from sometime in - even before the late

f
9 7 0 f s my dealing with Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust

10 had wound down.

11 352 Q. Yes. Wound down. Can you remember any details

12 about the winding down?

13 A. No, I can't, sorry.

14 353 Q. In regard to the Redhall Trust?

15 A. Yes.

16 354 Q. Did that come to an end?

17 A. All of those entities came to an end. I can't be

18 any more specific then that. The records, I

19 presume, will show.

20 355 Q. You cannot give us any dates on that?

21 A. No.

22 356 Q. Just one totally general question for the record,

23 could we just have a brief summary of your own

24 present position? Are you currently in business

25 or...(INTERJECTION)?

26 A. Yes, I am involved in a travel agency in Cork.

27 357 Q. Yes. What is that called?

28 A. Heffernan's Travel.

29 358 Q. Yes. Your position in it?

46
 1 A. I am MD.

2 359 Q. You are the MD?

3 A. Effectively, yes.

4 360 Q. That is fine?

5 A. I spend a couple of hours a week in it, so.

6 361 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Collins.

7 A. Thank you.

8 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. CORNELIUS COLLINS BY

9 MS. MACKEY:

10

11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you, Mr. Collins,

12 that is all for today.

13 Ms. Cummins will be in touch with you to let you

14 know when the transcript is ready.

15 A. Yes.

16 362 Q. Of your evidence, and we would ask you to come in to

17 sign the transcript?

18 A. Yes.

19 363 Q. Then if you want a copy of it we can make it

20 available to you?

21 A. I think it would assist me if I had a copy.

22 364 Q. Yes. You can get...(INTERJECTION)?

23 A. In the exercises I have to do.

24 365 Q. Yes.

25 A. I need a...(INTERJECTION).

26 366 Q. Of course, yes, yes.

27 A. I presume I can discuss time frame and

28 that...(INTERJECTION).

29 367 Q. Yes, you fix up the arrangement with Ms. Cummins?

47
 A. Not at all, thank you.
THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

48
yvvx^

§ TVXX^ ^ O O O
Appendix XV (18) (l)(b)
 n

^ CI COLLINS
\1 Glenfeeen. Gfanmire.
Co Cork. Ireland.
Telephone: (021)821535
Fax: (021)866088

CJC/gh
4th April, 2000
Office of the Inspectors Appointed by Order of the High Court to
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited,
3rd Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock, 0$ F'- ^
Co. Dublin.
Dear Sirs,
I refer to your letter of the 20th January, 2000 and hereby set out my statement
as requested.
I had extensive dealings with Guinness & Mahon from the 1970'stothe late 1980's
I had deposits with Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust for a time during the mid
1970's These deposits contained monies gifted to me by a relative who lived and
worked outside of the State. These gifts were reported to the Revenue Authorities
here and all relevant taxes paid. The decision to keep the monies on deposit
abroad was based on the best professional advice available at the time.
With regard to the request for any books and documents, I have no such records
-.J in my possession save for copies of documents sent to me by G & M.
G & M have forwarded documents to both the Mc Cracken and Moriarty Tribunals.
Despite repeated requests by me G & M have failed to confirm that I have been
furnished with copies of everything they have sent to the two Tribunals.
In the late 1980's I lost everything as I had to sell off ail my assets to repay Banks on
foot of personal guarantees. I also lost my home in that I had to hand over the Title
Deeds to Allied Irish Banks as security for an outstanding debt of £400,000.00 and
I had to dispose of the building that I operated from. In addition I reached
a full and final agreement with the Revenue. Consequently there was no reason,
after a period, to hold on to any records that I had stored.
If Guinness & Mahon have not already supplied you with all their records relating to
my dealings with them I would ask that you request them to do so. In this regard. I
attach a letter of authorisation.

c> n
 ^ C.J. COLLINS
Glenkeen. Glanmire.
Ca Cork Ireland.
Telephone: (021)821535
Fax: (021)866088

With regard to the specific queries raised in Appendix C the following is the
situation to the best of my knowledge.
1. A trust, Lynbrett, was set up by G & M in the early 1980's as a vehicle for an
investment in a property development in the US. I was one of five that
participated in that development. I am not aware of any other trust.
2. I did not avail of this service. I have no knowledge of Amiens Securities Ltd.,
Amiens Investments Ltd or Kentford Securities Ltd.,
3. I never had any dealings with Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited.
4. I did not avail of this service.
5. No -1 never had dealings with Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited or
Kredietbank N.V
6. In the case of Lynbrett I assume G & M sought and obtained exchange control
permission.
7. I do not recall any dealings with Guinness & Mahon Jersey Limited
or Guinness & Mahon Channel Islands. Limited. However College Trustees
Limited seems to be a familiar name, but it may simply have been used
by Guinness & Mahon in some property transaction or joint venture we were
involved in.
J
8. i know of no such bodies.
Finally in 19841 requested a borrowing facility from Guinness & Mahon to purchase
shares in Atlantic Resources to be secured by the shares. The facility was granted
and the vehicle used by Guinness & Mahon was Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust.
Yours faithfully,

tJLJ*
Cornelius J. Collins.
Appendix X V (18) (l)(c)
w
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMIT©
A M*mMr»f Uit GuioAM* Mahon MweJuat Banking Oreup
Titaphon* Na 9—4283/4 P.O. to* 8S7
C 303
Tdm ' anndOmm,
Clbte Addnas Oo&hmm ffrtttoi W«tt '•^tf

yourN*
out if JAF/£i

*tk VeuabVt, 1976

Itu Thank Ut
•. Uontentxttt
Co/ik •
" ': TBELAUO
VtaK FJuath,
mmu. -nivEsntBtis umrw
VEDHALL T8BST'

Z iww have. pltaiiuz

AS «t 3MA Novtabvt andtS&teMti in Pound SttAtlng. Fjum thli yvu.
mitt ^ze 4faLt -ttcAe <uu been a 4tigh£ deduction in capital
6«f w£**ttft of ifati wefcavttaUttm the. l.E.C.
ihatti at &>it. ..You mitt watt that ihzif. AhauA wut *ctd and.
the. late. pnocttdi credited dUtatly to jfcfee. acaocuit 0 j Vx. BtAAlz
Cottlni, at Marine VUdtaxd Scmfe.
Tfo aicMpantf&g PMfi* cuu£ L<ji& Aacomt 4/uxca wtXtly tuo Ut»4,
nancA/ book ok exefcmgt JUAiitUmg £ton a Aeua&ta&an
orf StvuUng oi tkt Vottaru futd by ZtdhrUl. The. cthai
item m the. Pto^U and Loi-i Account U tkt. JbetvttU earned on the.
A/X-4 di&ult account puM. to the. convtuion o{ thz balance, e{ tkt
aatuownt into US dotted.
In 40 &asi ai the. MTWMnerf, having dUpottd oi tint,

T
• ' StzJiting —— — wiwk -crm, V
bateauis. by vixtue. o{ the. intzAiM attorned pUo/i to cxmve/uion.i
t'.
ShMt

ibu r*utk' Ltt

ith Vtceabtx, 19 76
fagt 2

On tht aump&ton that goa. mitt Be. i* « petition to ag*tt the ftftte&ta
ilaMti thorn ix tkt uctMed accotmts, wt have mi tomvttad «
balances to U.S. doitaiu at anexc&aujt xaU o{ T.S5. AUo imbued -
cju. a&tamt* at lUne^txtzptiued Jtt U.S. dottaJU axd l
pnopoit tivct the&t iox» tht 6±Us o{ iatwu'dccai^tina. vixJuzz* oca.
•would &e fund enough to £tt*t btoa nkztSUn. you ague*, thtit liawiu
4*d alio aduiit ate i{ yoa has)t ang qtwtlu.
ToutOy now to tht account* o( KedfuUl T w t , 1 am Jx tkt. *
namcfc tmhuUngi acaounti which J think yoa »Ut ibid iUA&aLutatoxtf •
both 4* Pound StMl&a and in il.S. ioltaJU. <MctmeUA,pej3u»&tfau
uottfd bt kind enough to &on(Z>aa t/ooK a&tzemutt to the doUaxUsttJUi
4o that tot cmi uuuftt you/L /wcoxdA a&nit tilth own.
Knotty, 7 uauJtd noitia n that tktAt a.totatL avfjtdM.it at tht bonk,
account o{ KedhaU Txvut«ml as tkext wilt bt exjxnieAtfve*. tkt rirt
two month* Jn tht {e*m o{ Bovekiatext itti, etc. {o* Xedkatt JwtitaaKts
U*it*d, I pupost JMtxucUAB J* I um*d to e&Le
dzpaUt account Kemittlng tkoie. {votii to tu {a*, audit to the. cukAxnt
account o£ Hedhall IwJtMntnti Umited. I tab* It this aaUonmzUi
with youx apptovat.
Oven. the. cowut oi the. next tea days, I uOi be vaulting to go* iuvLim.
s&nilafi. accounts both -in. round SteklUy end U.S. daUatu to* the. vatfoui
ao a ua
entitle with which at ant wataaUn imolvvL. ** ** ™ *^u4
Yotvti sinccnely, . .

JOHN A. FURZE

Ends.
Appendix X V (18) (l)(d)
 Ahv. Ji eyy.

KEDHkLL mmrmns Liumo

P.O. Sox M7, Ghand Cayman, B.tf.7.

fafanae. Shzet OA at 36th Rovenbe* 1976

lexpneMtd In fc 4teAli*g)

amuTML-
Shout Capital tjtt.OO
Lotw Capital St,171.61
•PKolit S Lo&i Account
to 31-3-197$ S5.6M.t1
to J5-J0-I97S 15,797,34
to 30-11-1976 44,US.74 m,tn.t9
iJ 74,667.SO

Tteptetented byi-

Asserst-

Suipeme Account 41,160,77

Investment 7 SO.00
Loam ipvt Schedule) 127,157.2*
fixed Vepoiit - US$ Uee Nate. 11 j0,tt1.66
Call Vepoitt - US4 Uee Note t) 503.19
Calient Account 7.14
kl74,661.50

Hote. 1 The U.S. Vollax Filed Vepoiit conU&tA o( US$16,963.76 which.

VMi plazed on deposit value. 15th Octobe/t, 1976 aatuxing
15th AjvUt, 1977 at 71 p.a.

Natz 1 The U.S. "OoltaA. Call Depoiit eanAi&ti o{ US$790.51 which u04 placed
on deposit voZm 2Mi Oc£obe/t, 7976 at 4 l/t% p.a.
•I «EomL imsrmtrs umttep
•

VtuaUt a«d AcaottXttorn 15tk 0ctobvi14?6

to 30th NovanbtA. 1976

INCOME;-

ToKtign txeJuugt pio{it 44, tn.it

lwttfttit AM.tMM.blt. 3.46
144, US. 74

kuttmJM o{ Loom

64S.1t
1t1,11t.1t
mi,tS7.u
 XEDHAU TUVESrUMS LIXTTEP
f.O. Box U7, B/uud Cayman, 3.U.J.

Balance Sheet as at 30th Nw&bU ) 976

(expressed in U.S, VoitoJu) s.

LIABILITIES:-
SheUt Capital 165,00
Loan Capital 96,14$.16
tHotft t Loss Account
to 3!-3-1975 91f751.U
to t3-i<r~ms 16,065.61
to 30-11-1976 74,019.41 197,(54.f7
US$2titW.43

Represented bsft

ASSETS
Saipenit. Account 6t,0t0.17
Investment 1,337.50
Loans Uu ScJudult) 101,064.45
fixed Deposit - US$ liet Note 1) 76,963.76
Calt Deposit - US# Uee Hate, 2) 790.5.1
Cu/uient Account 12.94
(tS4t*t, 149.43

Nott ] The. U.S. VoZlaA fixed Deposit was plated on dapoiit value
J5th CetobeA 1976. maturing 15th ApUt 1977 at 71 p.a.

Matt 2 Tht U.S. VottaJL CoJU. Deposit MS placed on deposit vatuz

214th OctobeA 1916 at 4 I Jt\ p.a.
ry

V »
REVHALl IWESTJMBTO LIMITS?

- hudbtUi H La<ixi

Jttdha&t VutU
Ditto. tiatdixgi Ud. jaa, bodjo
rv
r*
Appendix XV (18) (l)(e)
 Miltown Grange,
Castlabellinfehan,
Co. Loath.

The Directors,
Guinness & Mahon Caymaq Trust Limited,
P.O. Box 887,
Grand Cayman,
British Vest Indies.

Dear'Sira,
I refer to a Deed of Settlement dated 31at March* 1972, whereby John
Andrew Turxe appointed Guinness and Mahon Cayman Trust Lladted aa Trustee?
of a Settlement for tha benefit of the'issue of the late Charlas McCann and
Koaetta McCann.
In their capacity aa Trustees, Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, through
their nominees own the entire issued share capital of Bine Limited.
I hereby authorise you to transfer at par to'&eil Collins to his nominee the
entire issued- share capital of Blue Limited..

Yours faithfully,

' Nail V. McCann

Appendix XV (18) (l)(f)
r\

r *

* • *

Our Raft TRLtAB

15th. , 1976.
It*

J .A.Furt«, b q > »
GvliMMn Mahon ChyMW T r t w t L t d . ,
P.O.Box. 887,
Grand CaypM.
BRITISH WEST IH0I6S.

Otmr John,
I thank you for y e a r l«t-hw d«t»d 9 t h . D*c*nb«r, 1976, t o g r H w
w i t h w i e l o s u r w . As rtqQMtod I » t t « c h d r a f t I n t h « » « of
Oollars r f p r m n t l i * prtnclpal plus TirNrwt t o on
thmWT" r>

Yours » 1 n c « r « l y /

T X
ACCOUNTS.

Ene/I.
Appendix X V (18) (1) (g)
 TfLKX M E S 4 A 6 B

TO: ' J . A . F u r z e , E s q . , G u i n n e s s Mahon Cayman T r u s t Ltd.,

DATE: 1 7 t h . November, 1976

TEST:

RE: TAMARIN

Have s p o k e n t o F . L . who c o n f i r m s t h a t you s h o u l d p r o c e e d

s u g g e s t e d In y o u r t e l e x .

I a w a i t y o u r I n s t r u c t i o n s on A/XI a n d A A 3 .

R e g a r d s , Ru L e o n a r d . . . ^ J ^

AUTHORISED BY:
DEBIT:
COST:
HLfc
Appendix XV (18) (1) (h)
FL/hna

29th June, 1976

R. Leonard'. E s q . .
Guinness lc Mahon L t d . ,
17 Collaga Green,
Dublin 2.

Dear Ru,

Re:

I would be obliged if you could let m e have a aterling

cheque for the U. S. dollar equivalent of .$862.65
payable to Reffernana Travel Ltd.

You could arrange with J o b s T u r a e to let you have a

cheque to cover thia amount, and debit same to Taxnaxin
Holdings Ltd.

Your a sincerely.

c. c. Mr. John A. Purse

o o
Appendix X V (18) (l)(i)
 Kennedy Crowley 8c Co. Chartered Accountants

Harcourt House Haxcourt Street Dublin 9 Telephone (01) 757971 Telex 4404

Vincant Walah, Kaq.p t.. AJ8/BB

Arthur Coat * Co**
42, St. 8taphan*a 8 m a ,
Dublin, 2. 5th January, 1973.

aad.tfiitaand J i m Tm«t«

D u e Tlaent:

•• * t&avftad, Whita- and Ttttat^frid^ng iPHftlfti ariai»« •.

" W l u f f . M M Uaitad Ss-fivfc*-. v^-.

banaficlary.. '7
-vriteals "to HalV/McC«na. an*.-PWWP -v..:^*

XhaTpdwara referred to in tha laae paragraphwhich have been •

irr«<r6cablygranted to you are the pow§^ tha gattlor, the
principal power being tha power to replecethe, Truateea. Tha
Settlor vaa a Cayman Lawyer.
i hopa that this will ba la order vithyou and ahould you require
any further information, or a copy of tha original doeuaaata,
plaaa* lat nia kaov.

With anwtf good wiah.

Youra aiacerely.

•lax. Spain.

e e : Hall V. MsCaxm, Eaq.^

Philip Msnahan, Saq.

T
Appendix X V (18) (1) (j)
Registrar of Companies.
Limited hereby notifies y accordance with Section 195 of the Companies! 1963
tha
<3VV jtcJU 'Solm^xsi^ , H~lSj rV. Cyr^JUiLa l-SRs=> c^f^criJ^/ of- -jfc*
specify nature
of change. If <A cjj Mr A. S^yct^ U<ud
consisis of the
ent of a new
or Secretary
also particulars
below. Particulars of new Director* or Secretary (Columns 1, 2 and 3 only need be completed for a Secretary).
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)
Name
e case of an individual, present Nationality Business occupation and particulars of .
an name or names and surname.^ Any former Christian name or Usual residential address (if not Irish) other directorships of bodies corporate
case of a body corporate, the names and surnamej (in the case of a body corporate, the registered office) fl incorporated in the State §
Corporate name) fl Q
\
O
J>
0
ChtLsta -—
/^Lr&^ra".—7 \
4 J p ™ ^ r
>n
... u

x
o
c
w
m

1
r
H
O
\
0
01
o
o
o

1 i
A
CO

NOTES
"surname"
any person who occupies the position of a director by whatever name called, and any person in accordance with whose directions or instructions the directors of the company are accustomed to act.
nchi.Us a forename, and
U'lmc" and "former surname"
in the case of a person usually known by a title different from his surname means that title.
do not include: —
? of a person n.nally known by a title different from his surname, the name by which he was known previous to the adoption of or succession to the title; or
? of any person, a former Christian name or surname where that name or surname was changed or disused before the person bearing the name attained the age of eighteen years or has been changed or disused for a period
(ban twenty years; or
• of a married ^ o m a n the name or surname by which she was known previous to the marriage.
: names of all bodies corporate incorporated in the State of which the director is also a director should be given, except bodies corporate of which the company making the return is the wholly-owned subsidiary or bodies
,lly.iiwn»d subsidiaries either of the company, or of another body corporate of which the company is the wholly-owned subsidiary. A body corporate is deemed to be the wholly-owned subsidiary of another if it has no
an,I that other's wholly-owned subsidiaries a n d its or their nominees. If the space provided in the form is insufficient, particulars of other directorships should be listed on a separate statement attached to this form
tn, is in a linn are joint secretaries, the name and principal office of the firm may be stated.
ie sipr.etl by a director or the secretary.
r*

r* • ""1UUI/4
COMPANIES" ACT, 1963 I
Form No. « .

1heperiod —Zxf—
.~if.Xit>
•Mb (••• Ita I
M4

JM^nmkMMU.
(To bo lied with the Kcfjetnir wkhia Mae month after the allotment is made).

TNunbcx of the Shun aUocfcd payable in caeh

» »» »• —
Nominal amount of the Shara 10 allotted _ In
I »• n >i

Amouat paid oc due and payable on each luch Share

Number of Share* iMkI 6r a corn id nr» lion other

then cash
Nominal amount el the Shane so allotted —

Amount to be treated m paid oa each aoeii Sham _.,

tor wMefc audi Shane have bees allotted k ae fellow—

Nonas:—
L When a r i Infinite* Tienl Allon»«nti Mite ondiHerentdatea, thodataeof oniy the fat and Uet ofsuch
Allotments iheuid be entmd, u d the registration of the return should be e&caed within one month of the
fast date.
2. When a retanirelatn to one Allotment only, nauie on wieperiteul^ be iraertad
and the ipacet br the second data Mradt out and the wort "made" substitutedfix the word "from" after
the word^AHetmcala."
3. Fife 3 need not be cceraleted ia a eaae where Shan* arc allotted to the number* of a ocsnpany
en a npiimlfaetinn or prontaully allotted on ariffca issue.
fmmbifirflmi " .
-
 NAMBS, ADDUSSSS, AND OCCUPATIONS OS TH* ALLOTTHS

' * ' — *1H1|||

hiMWi Chi lulu M M m OcopuUa
1 OnUuiy

fb
earn***?

7 4

. :

1
I
I

;
!
i
i |

i •

i !

j 1
1 |
i
> i
1
i
! i
I . 1

• " i
i
•
Appendix XV (19) Dr Patrick Finbarr Collins
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Dr
Patrick Finbarr Collins.

a) Transcript of evidence of Dr Barry Collins of 22 March 2000.

b) Letter of 9 December 1976 from Mr John Furze to Mr Frank Lee.

c) Redhall Investments Ltd 1976 accounts & Redhall Trust documentation.

d) Extract from transcript of evidence of Cornelius Collins of 11 April 2000

Q.l 14-168 inclusive.
Appendix X V (19) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF DR. BARRY COLLINS

UNDER OATH

ON WEDNESDAY, 22ND MARCH 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
 PRESENT

The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: DR. BARRY COLLINS

 I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE

DR. B. COLLINS MS. MACKEY 5 - 29

MR. ROWAN 30 - 37

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 38 - 46

MS. MACKEY 47 - 50
 1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,

2 22ND MARCH 2000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Dr. Collins, we will begin

5 our interview. My name is

6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey and on

7 my left is Mr. Rowan. We are Inspectors, as you

8 know, appointed by The High Court.

9 DR. COLLINS: Yes.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: This interview will be

11 under oath and I would ask

12 our solicitor now to administer the oath to you.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

4
 1 DR. BARRY COLLINS, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED

2 AS FOLLOWS

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Doctor, I will ask

5 Ms. Mackey to start asking

6 you some questions.

7 DR. COLLINS: Yes.

9 DR. COLLINS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY

10

11 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Good morning Dr. Collins?

12 A. Morning.

13 2 Q. Can you just, for the record, tell me a little bit

14 about yourself first? You are a medical doctor, is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes, a medical practitioner.

17 3 Q. A general practitioner?

18 A. General practitioner, yes.

19 4 Q. In Cork?

20 A. Yes, just retired.

21 5 Q. Just retired?

22 A. Yes.

23 6 Q. Okay. Have you lived in Cork all your life?

24 A. Yes, all my life. Actually I was born in America.

25 7 Q. Yes?

26 A. But I lived in Cork since 1932.

27 8 Q. Yes. Have you always practiced medicine or have you

28 been...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. Yes, nothing else.

5
 1 9 Q. Nothing else?

2 A. Yes.

3 10 Q. You received our letter that we sent to you, I know,

4 at the beginning of February?

5 A. Yes.

6 11 Q. The end of February?

7 A. Yes.

8 12 Q. You wrote back to us and you told us, in answer to

9 our questions, that, in fact, you never had any

10 dealings with the company, as we call it,

11 "Ansbacher"?

12 A. That is correct.

13 13 Q. Or as it used to be called Guinness Mahon Cayman

14 Trust?

15 A. Yes.

16 14 Q. You did mention that you were at one time a

17 non-executive Director?

18 A. Yes.

19 15 Q. Of Westboro Investments?

20 A. Investments.

21 16 Q. What was that company?

22 A. They were involved -- well, my brother was what you

23 might call the Managing Director of it. He was the

24 business person in it.

25 17 Q. Your brother now is?

26 A. My brother is C.J. Collins.

27 18 Q. C.J. Collins?

28 A. And he started what was effectively an investment

29 company.

6
 2 A. So, he asked me to invest in it.

3 20 Q. Yes?

4 A. For a long-term situation.

5 21 Q. Yes?

6 A. They invested in properties. They invested in

7 supermarkets. I think they invested in a farm.

8 22 Q. Yes?

9 A. Some woodlands and things like that. General

10 investment.

11 23 Q. General property?

12 A. Yes.

13 24 Q. Again, just for the record, what is your own full

14 name Dr. Collins?

15 A. Well, my proper full name.

16 25 Q. Yes?

17 A. Is Patrick Finbar.

18 26 Q. Patrick Finbar?

19 A. Collins.

20 27 Q. Yes. However, you are generally know as Barry?

21 A. As Barry Collins, yes.

22 28 Q. Yes. You say in relation to Westboro Investments

23 that you do know that they had dealings with

24 Guinness & Mahon Ireland Limited?

25 A. Yes.

26 29 Q. Did they have an account with Guinness & Mahon?

27 A. Well, all I know is, or I was told was, that they,

28 amongst others, Guinness & Mahon Dublin... .

29 30 Q. Yes?

7
 1 A. ... were bankers.

2 31 Q. Yes?

3 A. That they dealt with.

4 32 Q. That Westboro dealt with them?

5 A. Dealt with them.

6 33 Q. Yes?

7 A. Yes.

8 34 Q. You were a non-executive Director in Westboro?

9 A. Yes.

10 35 Q. How involved were you in the day-to-day affairs of

11 it?

12 A. I wasn't. The only time I might be involved would

13 be when I would be presented with a document to

14 countersign because I was a Director and I was asked

15 to put my signature to it.

16 36 Q. I see?

17 A. I never got any remuneration.

18 37 Q. Remuneration, yes?

19 A. Or benefit of any description.

20 38 Q. Did you attend board meetings?

21 A. No.

22 39 Q. Directors meetings?

23 A. No, no.

24 40 Q. No. Very good. Dr. Collins, you went then went on

25 to say that you have no knowledge of Amiens

26 Securities?

27 A. No.

28 41 Q. Or Kenford or any of these?

29 A. No.

8
 1 42 Q. That is fine. Could I then just ask you to have a

2 look at a document? It is page 24. (Exhibit 1)

3 (Same Handed)?

4 A. Thank you.

5 43 Q. This is a letter of the 9th December 1976, you will

6 see there?

7 A. Yes.

8 44 Q. Addressed to a Mr. Frank Lee?

9 A. He was the secretary of Westboro Investments.

10 45 Q. Was he?

11 A. Yes.

12 46 Q. Right. Thank you. It is addressed to him as you

13 will see from the top there?

14 A. Yes.

15 47 Q. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?

16 A. Yes.

17 48 Q. Which is now know as "Ansbacher"?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 49 Q. The letter is signed by a John A. Furze. You see

20 that on the second page?

21 A. Yes, okay. Fine, yes.

22 50 Q. There should be two pages, Mary. Have you got a

23 second page?

24 A. No.

25 MS. CUMMINS: Sorry (Same Handed).

26 A. Okay, thank you.

27 51 Q. MS. MACKEY: Do you know who Mr. Furze

28 is?

29 A. I know by reading the newspapers.

9
 2 A. But I don't know...(INTERJECTION).

3 53 Q. However, did you know before?

4 A. No, never.

5 54 Q. You never knew?

6 A. No.

7 55 Q. You might like to just read through that letter

8 there?

9 A. All right, Okay.

10 56 Q. For a few moments Dr. Collins?

11 A. Yes.

12 57 Q. I would direct you particularly to the second

13 paragraph of it there.

14 A. What does I.E.C. mean?

15 58 Q. They are some kind of shares. I don't know. You

16 can't tell us, no?

17 A. No.

18 59 Q. Any way if you just read the next sentence. This is

19 really what I want you to look at. I will just read

20 it out to you?

21 A. "Directly credited to the account of..."

22 60 Q. "...of Dr. Berrie Collins..."

23 A. Yes, "...Berrie Collins..."

24 61 Q. Which I presume is you?

25 A. Well, Barry that should be obviously.

26 62 Q. "...at Marine Midland Bank..."

27 A. "...at Marine Midland Bank..." And where would that

28 be located?

29 63 Q. I am asking you?

10
 1 A. Yes, honestly I...(INTERJECTION).

2 64 Q. Have you ever heard of Marine Midland Bank?

3 A. I have heard of Midland Bank.

4 65 Q. Right. Did you have an account in Midland Bank?

5 A. No.

6 66 Q. You never did?

7 A. No, not to my knowledge.

8 67 Q. Can you explain in any way what this means?

9 A. No, I honestly can't. I have no knowledge

10 whatsoever of that.

11 68 Q. Just let us try and tease this out a little bit?

12 This is 1976?

13 A. All right. Okay, yes.

14 69 Q. Were you at this stage involved in Westboro?

15 A. I probably was.

16 70 Q. When did you become...(INTERJECTION)?

17 A. When I invested money it was the time when

18 Mr. Richie Ryan was Minister For Finance.

19 71 Q. In the early 1970's?

20 A. And The Wealth Tax was introduced. What year would

21 that be?

22 72 Q. Around 1974?

23 A. Well, any way I was advised -- I had American

24 securities.

25 73 Q. Yes?

26 A. Which had been given to me by a relative who lived

27 and worked in America.

28 74 Q. Right?

29 A. And I had been given those in 1950/60s.

11
 2 A. And I was advised to sell those shares.

3 76 Q. Yes?

4 A. And to invest the money whatever way I wanted to

5 invest it.

6 77 Q. Yes?

7 A. And this is how I came to invest money in

8 Westboro Investments.

9 78 Q. Were you a shareholder in Westboro, Dr. Collins?

10 A. Well, I suppose I was because I invested money.

11 79 Q. Did you purchase shares in the company?

12 A. I didn't have any share certificates.

13 80 Q. You had no share certificates?

14 A. No, no.

15 81 Q. So...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. I just gave my brother the money.

17 82 Q. Yes?

18 A. And he invested it for me.

19 83 Q. Yes?

20 A. In Westboro Investments.

21 84 Q. In Westboro?

22 A. Yes.

23 85 Q. Any way just getting back to this letter?

24 A. Yes.

25 86 Q. The letter is, as I said, from Mr. Furze to Mr. Lee,

26 who you said is the secretary of Westboro?

27 A. That is right.

28 87 Q. It is sending him the accounts of a company called

29 Redhall Investments Limited?

12
 1 A. Right.

2 88 Q. Are you familiar with Redhall?

3 A. I am not, no.

4 89 Q. You have never heard of Redhall Investments?

5 A. No. Now, don't get me wrong, I may have heard the

6 word Redhall but what it is all about I have no

7 idea.

8 90 Q. Where might you have heard it?

9 A. Well, I might have heard it from my brother.

10 91 Q. From your brother?

11 A. Somewhere along the way.

12 92 Q. From you brother and...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. Well, I don't want to commit him to something that

14 mightn't be absolutely true but it is not a name.

15 93 Q. Yes?

16 A. That I have ever really heard of somewhere along the

17 way.

18 94 Q. Yes?

19 A. But... (INTERJECTION) .

20 95 Q. Would you have heard of it in connection with

21 Westboro?

22 A. Well, that is the only way or place, I could have

23 heard of it.

24 96 Q. Right. Just moving along then, this letter is

25 sending the accounts of Redhall Investments to

26 Mr. Lee for his approval, an updated Balance Sheet.

27 He points out that from the updated Balance Sheet

28 Mr. Lee will see that there has been a slight

29 reduction in the loan capital due to writing off the

13
 1 I.E.C. shares at cost and he says:

2 "You will recall that these shares were

sold and the sale proceeds credited
3 directly to the account of
Dr. Berrie Collins at Marine
4 Midland Bank."

6 You say Dr. Collins that you have never had an

7 account in Midland Bank, is that right?

8 A. I have no knowledge of this. Well, where is this

9 bank located.

10 97 Q. Sorry, if you would just let me ask the questions?

11 A. All right. Okay.

12 98 Q. If you would not mind?

13 A. Right.

14 99 Q. Can you tell us where you have had bank accounts in

15 the past, what banks?

16 A. Well, AIB is my main bank.

17 100 Q. Right?

18 A. I had a small account in AIB Bruton Street.

19 101 Q. Yes?

20 A. I had a daughter living in...(INTERJECTION).

21 102 Q. However, leaving aside AIB now?

22 A. And I had money that went into a bank account in

23 New York from shares that were there.

24 103 Q. What was the name of that Bank?

25 A. AIB.

26 104 Q. In New York?

27 A. Yes.

28 105 Q. Right. Any other bank except AIB that you

29 recollect?

14
 1 A. Well, I can't honestly say.

2 106 Q. Well, then...(INTERJECTION)?

3 A. You see I left a lot of -- I left all of this kind

4 of business dealing and whatever to my brother.

5 107 Q. However... (INTERJECTION)?

6 A. I ... (INTERJECTION) .

7 108 Q. You must know if you had bank accounts Dr. Collins?

8 A. Well... (INTERJECTION) .

9 109 Q. Or you would get statements?

10 A. Well, he would have got the statements probably.

11 110 Q. However, if there was an account in your name in a

12 bank the statements should...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. I should get the statements, shouldn't I?

14 111 Q. Yes. Yes, you should. Can you recollect?

15 A. I can't remember it really.

16 112 Q. You cannot remember ever having a bank account other

17 than Allied Irish Banks?

18 A. Well, if you are pressing me on it obviously,

19 according to this, there was a Marine Midland where

20 my money had been and maybe it went from

21 Marine Midland into AIB then.

22 113 Q. Right. If that happened?

23 A. Yes.

24 114 Q. Supposing that happened, that money went from Marine

25 Midland, whereever that is, into AIB, can you

26 recollect proceeds of the sale of shares coming into

27 your account in AIB?

28 A. Now, with my shares, what I did was I gave my share

29 certificates to my brother.

15
 1 115 Q. Right?

2 A. And he disposed of them.

3 116 Q. Yes?

4 A. And he invested the monies.

5 117 Q. What were these share certificates?

6 A. They were America blue chips, which I had been

7 given, as I told you.

8 118 Q. Yes?

9 A. By an uncle of mine.

10 119 Q. Right?

11 A. In the 1950s and 1960s.

12 120 Q. Yes?

13 A. They were things like Exon.

14 121 Q. Yes?

15 A. Standard Oil.

16 122 Q. Yes?

17 A. New Jersey Standard Oil of California.

18 123 Q. Yes.

19 A. And I had shares in Waterford Glass, Irish Glass

20 Bottle.

21 124 Q. Yes. You gave these to your brother?

22 A. Yes, and he sold them on.

23 125 Q. Yes. Could that be what is referred to here?

24 A. It could well be, yes, yes, because I didn't sell

25 any of these myself.

26 126 Q. Yes?

27 A. But I disposed of them. Actually I gave authority

28 to dispose of them.

29 127 Q. Yes. It appears from this letter that the shares

16
 1 that are being referred to here are shares that were

2 assets of Redhall Investments Limited because what

3 is being explained in this letter that there has

4 been a slight reduction in the loan capital figure?

5 A. Yes .

6 128 Q. Due to the sale of these shares?

7 A. Yes .

8 129 Q. These shares were shares that were assets of this

9 company Redhall Investments?

10 A. Right, yes.

11 130 Q. You cannot remember whether you ever heard of

12 Redhall Investments, you may you

13 say...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. Well, now as I said to you the name isn't totally

15 unfamiliar to me.

16 131 Q. Yes?

17 A. But beyond the name itself I can't elaborate.

18 132 Q. Right. I see?

19 A. And I don't know what this "I.E.C." shares business

20 is .

21 133 Q. It appears from our information here that

22 Redhall Investments was a company wholly owned by

23 The Redhall Trust, which was a Cayman Island Trust.

24 Redhall Investments had a deposit with

25 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, which is "Ansbacher"?

26 A. Yes .

27 134 Q. The assets of this company included these shares

28 that were sold and the proceeds of which were

29 transferred, according to this letter, into an

 1 account in your name?

2 A. Well, now you are telling me something that is very

3 foreign to me.

4 135 Q. You cannot... (INTERJECTION)?

5 A. I had asked, before I ever came here today that, you

6 know, "Was there any outside possibility that I

7 could have been involved with others in a

8 Cayman Trust," and I was told, "No way".

9 136 Q. Who did you ask?

10 A. My brother.

11 137 Q. Mr... (INTERJECTION) ?

12 A. C.J. Collins.

13 138 Q. Mr. C.J. Collins?

14 A. Yes.

15 139 Q. And he told you, "No"?

16 A. He said, "No, forget it. There was nothing you were

17 involved in that related to Cayman Trust".

18 140 Q. Right. Can I ask you if you have ever heard of

19 Tamarin Holdings?

20 A. No.

21 141 Q. You never have?

22 A. No, is that something else?

23 142 Q. This is just a company I am asking you?

24 A. Yes.

25 143 Q. If you have ever heard of?

26 A. No.

27 144 Q. Have you ever heard of a company called

28 Neptune Investments?

29 A. No.

18
 1 145 Q. Cayman Realtors?

2 A. No.

3 146 Q. Agar International?

4 A. Maybe. I don't know. Once again the name

5 Agar...(INTERJECTION).

6 147 Q. Right. Where do you think...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. I couldn't give you an answer because I don't know.

8 148 Q. I see. Delta Investments?

9 A. No.

10 149 Q. Were you ever involved in a company called

11 Charlemont Estates?

12 A. Yes.

13 150 Q. You were?

14 A. Yes.

15 151 Q. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

16 A. As far as I know they developed a building along the

17 canal.

18 152 Q. As far as you know, were you -- what was your

19 involvement in this company?

20 A. Well, as with Westboro Investments -- a

21 non-executive Director of Westboro Investments who

22 was told about Charlemont Estates but I

23 don't...(INTERJECTION).

24 153 Q. What was Charlemont Estates?

25 A. I think it was a group who developed or built.

26 154 Q. Right?

27 A. And one of the buildings they put up by all accounts

28 was down on the canal here.

29 155 Q. Yes?

19
 1 A. P.J. Carroll were there.

2 156 Q. Whose company was this?

3 A. Well, my brother was the person who was effectively

4 the business person in this.

5 157 Q. What do you mean by "business person"?

6 A. I had no say.

7 158 Q. What do you mean by "business person" Dr. Collins?

8 Was he...(INTERJECTION)?

9 A. I wasn't a business person. I had

10 no...(INTERJECTION).

11 159 Q. Was your brother a Director of Charlemont Estates?

12 A. Gosh, I am sure he was, yes.

13 160 Q. And were you?

14 A. Well, he might have had me down as a Director but I

15 never attended any...(INTERJECTION).

16 161 Q. However, were you a Director of Charlemont Estates?

17 A. I could be. I am not sure really.

18 162 Q. You are not sure?

19 A. I am being perfectly honest now. I am after

20 swearing on oath and I am not sure but I probably

21 was.

22 163 Q. You were probably a Director of Charlemont Estates?

23 A. I probably was, yes.

24 164 Q. This was a company involved in property development?

25 A. Yes, yes.

26 165 Q. In what way was this company connected

27 with Westboro?

28 A. Well, I would have thought it was part of Westboro

29 Investments.

20
 1 166 Q. You mean it was a subsidiary of Westboro?

2 A. I would have thought so, yes.

3 167 Q. You thought... (INTERJECTION)?

4 A. That it was one of their investments.

5 168 Q. I see. Would it have been a wholly owned subsidiary

6 of Westboro?

7 A. Do you mean just C.J. Collins and myself or would

8 there be other people involved, is that it?

9 169 Q. No, did Westboro -- was Westboro the only

10 shareholder?

11 A. Gosh, I don't think so, no.

12 170 Q. You do not think so?

13 A. No, no, no.

14 171 Q. You think there were other people involved?

15 A. Yes, definitely.

16 172 Q. Who might the other people be?

17 A. Do I have to name names?

18 173 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

19 A. Do I?

20 174 Q. Yes?

21 A. Well, I think Patrick and the McGraths.

22 175 Q. Who are they? Patrick and?

23 A. Paddy and what was the -- I can't remember. A

24 brother. His brother anyway. Patrick McGrath and

25 his brother.

26 176 Q. Patrick McGrath and his brother?

27 A. Yes.

28 177 Q. And you and your brother?

29 A. Yes, certainly.

21
 1 178 Q. And anybody else?

2 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

3 179 Q. You do not know?

4 A. No.

5 180 Q. Were you and your brother the only shareholders in

6 Westboro Investments?

7 A. I think so, yes.

8 181 Q. You were?

9 A. Yes.

10 182 Q. Your brother was the Managing Director of

11 Westboro Investments?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 183 Q. And you were the only other Director?

14 A. To my knowledge, yes.

15 184 Q. You would have intimate knowledge then of what

16 Westboro Investments was doing?

17 A. No, I wouldn't as a matter of fact. I wasn't kept

18 abreast of things. I invested my money and I just

19 let it at that. I concentrated on my own medical

20 practice.

21 185 Q. I see. Similarly, with Charlemont Estates?

22 A. Yes.

23 186 Q. What other companies did Westboro Investments have

24 an involvement with?

25 A. They had an involvement with Westboro Finance.

26 187 Q. Westboro Finance?

27 A. Yes.

28 188 Q. Can you tell be what involvement there was there?

29 Was your brother a Director of Westboro Finance ?

22
 2 189 Q. Were you?

3 A. I haven't any documentation to prove that I was.

4 190 Q. Do you know whether you were or not, Dr. Collins?

5 A. Pardon?

6 191 Q. Do you know whether you were or not?

7 A. Once again I probably would have been a

8 non-executive Director.

9 192 Q. You probably were?

10 A. Yes.

11 193 Q. Were there any other companies?

12 A. Off hand I can't tell you.

13 194 Q. You cannot tell me?

14 A. No.

15 195 Q. Right. Westboro Finance, what exactly was that?

16 A. Well, they were involved in a banking situation with

17 a group called First Southern Bank.

18 196 Q. Yes. When you say "in a banking situation"?

19 A. Well, they were a bank.

20 197 Q. Westboro Finance was a bank?

21 A. Well -- now, I am going to get confused here because

22 I am not sure of what I am saying.

23 198 Q. Yes. As best you can?

24 A. Westboro Finance may be -- they developed

25 First Southern Bank I think.

26 199 Q. Yes?

27 A. Now, I could be proved wrong on this statement about

28 developing it but...(INTERJECTION).

29 200 Q. If you can just say what you think?

23
 1 A. Yes, what I think...(INTERJECTION).

2 201 Q. Tell me if you are not sure?

3 A. Yes, I am not sure, yes.

4 202 Q. They developed Southern Finance, was it?

5 A. First Southern Bank.

6 203 Q. First Southern Bank?

7 A. Yes.

8 204 Q. Dr. Collins, were you ever involved with your

9 brother in the setting up of any trusts off shore?

10 A. No, definitely...(INTERJECTION).

11 205 Q. None at all?

12 A. Definitely not.

13 206 Q. Either in Cayman or in the Channel Islands?

14 A. No, not to my knowledge.

15 207 Q. Not to your knowledge?

16 A. No.

17 208 Q. Does the term "Redhall Trust" mean anything to you?

18 A. As I said to you already the name Redhall.

19 209 Q. Yes?

20 A. It's in my mind but it doesn't register otherwise.

21 210 Q. Do you know if you were the beneficiary of any trust

22 set up by your bother off shore?

23 A. No, definitely not.

24 211 Q. You were not?

25 A. No.

26 212 Q. Can I pass you another document, Dr. Collins. It is

27 at page 26 Mary, just page 26 (Same handed)?

28 A. Thank you.

29 213 Q. Again, a letter of 1976. This time it is sent from

24
 1 Mr. Lee to Mr. Ru Leonard of Guinness & Mahon

2 Limited?

3 A. Right, yes.

4 214 Q. It starts off:

5 "Dear Rue, Re: C.J. Collins/P.F.

Collins Account."
6

7 A. Right, Okay.

8 215 Q. You have told us that your name is Patrick Finbar?

9 A. That is right, yes, that is right.

10 216 Q. So this is you?

11 A. Yes, certainly, yes.

12 217 Q. Now:

13 "Confirming yesterdays telephone

conversation with Helen Kelly, I would
14 be obliged if you could open a new
Account in the above name and let me
15 have a cheque payable to
Southern Inns Ltd, for £15,000. On the
16 present maturity of the Ponderosa
deposits you could instruct John Furze
17 to let you have an amount from the
interest figure earned to clear this
18 £15,000 with interest accrued to the
clearing date."
19

20 A. Yes .

21 218 Q. This is an account which had been opened in

22 Guinness & Mahon?

23 A. It looks like it.

24 219 Q. Yes. In the joint names of you and your brother?

25 A. Right, yes.

26 220 Q. You told me a while ago that you could not remember

27 having any bank accounts other than in

28 Allied Irish Banks?

29 A. Yes .

25
 1 221 Q. However, here is an account in Guinness & Mahon. Do

2 you recollect this?

3 A. Yes, certainly, yes.

4 222 Q. You do?

5 A. But I didn't have any knowledge of that.

6 223 Q. You had no knowledge?

7 A. No.

8 224 Q. Before you saw this?

9 A. No, no. First Southern, yes, but the bank account,

10 no.

11 225 Q. Can you explain the reference to the cheque payable

12 to Southern Inns there?

13 A. I can't. All I know is that Southern Inns was a

14 hotel.

15 226 Q. Yes?

16 A. In Blarney.

17 227 Q. Yes?

18 A. That there was an investment in.

19 228 Q. Yes?

20 A. But that is it as far as I am concerned.

21 229 Q. That Westboro invested in?

22 A. Yes.

23 230 Q. Can you explain what the reference to the cheque for

24 £15,000 for Southern Inns would be?

25 A. No, I can't.

26 231 Q. Do you think your brother would have set up an

27 account in your name, jointly with him, without

28 telling you?

29 A. He could have actually, yes.

26
 1 232 Q. Did you ever received any bank statements in

2 relation to an account in Guinness & Mahon?

3 A. No, never.

4 233 Q. Have you ever heard of Ponderosa?

5 A. No.

6 234 Q. You have never heard of that?

7 A. No.

8 235 Q. Dr. Collins, if I could just sort of run over

9 briefly what your evidence here today is? We have

10 shown you a document which states that proceeds from

11 the sale of shares held by a company Redhall

12 Investments, which had deposits in "Ansbacher", were

13 credited to an account in your name?

14 A. Yes .

15 236 Q. Marine Midland Bank?

16 A. Yes .

17 237 Q. Your evidence on oath is that you have no knowledge

18 of ever having an account in Marine Midland Bank,

19 and that you know nothing about any proceeds of

20 these shares being lodged to an account in your

21 name, is that correct?

22 A. Can I qualify this now?

23 238 Q. Yes please?

24 A. My knowledge of any monies into an account, be it

25 whatever, came from one source only as far as I am

26 concerned and that was from the sale of my US

27 securities.

28 239 Q. They were lodged to what account?

29 A. Do you know you probably don't understand what I am

27
 1 trying to say. I gave these to my brother.

2 240 Q. Yes?

3 A. And he lodged them.

4 241 Q. Yes, he sold them?

5 A. And I left it to him.

6 242 Q. However, he sold them, did he?

7 A. He did, yes.

8 243 Q. Yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 244 Q. However, the proceeds of the sale of those?

11 A. Yes.

12 245 Q. Came to you clearly?

13 A. No, I never actually saw them but obviously they

14 were put into an account in my name and then

15 probably transferred into Westboro Investments as an

16 investment. Now, I am supposing this.

17 246 Q. Right. Do you thing that is what is referred to in

18 this letter?

19 A. It looks like it to me now.

20 247 Q. You think that that is?

21 A. Yes.

22 248 Q. What is referred to there?

23 A. Yes.

24 249 Q. Then in relation to an account that appears to have

25 been opened in Guinness & Mahon in the joint names

26 of you and your brother?

27 A. Yes.

28 250 Q. Your evidence on oath to us there is that you know

29 nothing of that account?

28
 1 A. I don't, no.

2 251 Q. That you never heard of it? You never knew you had

3 an account in Guinness & Mahon?

4 A. No.

5 252 Q. Is that right?

6 A. I have never ever had any document of any

7 description from Guinness & Mahon.

8 253 Q. However, did you ever hear that you had an account

9 there?

10 A. Well, I knew that Westboro Investments had bank

11 dealings with Guinness & Mahon.

12 254 Q. However, that you personally had an account?

13 A. I had no personal account with him.

14 255 Q. You never had that.

15 A. No.

16 256 Q. Yes. I have no further questions. Thank you

17 Dr. Collins.

18 A. Yes.

19

20 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. COLLINS BY MS. MACKEY

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

29
 1 DR. COLLINS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN

3 257 Q. MR. ROWAN: Dr. Collins, just going

4 back to Westboro, you said

5 that you and your brother were involved in Westboro

6 Investments?

7 A. Correct.

8 258 Q. How was the shareholding in Westboro divided between

9 yourself and your brother? What number of shares

10 did you have, or what proportion of the shareholding

11 did you have, and what proportion did he have?

12 A. I don't know. I was asked to make an investment. I

13 made it but whether he made a bigger investment I

14 can't tell you but there were only two of us.

15 259 Q. Might you have shared...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. I didn't get a share certificate as such.

17 260 Q. Might you have shared in it 50/50?

18 A. I might have, yes, if it had gone according to plan.

19 261 Q. What was the plan?

20 A. I was hoping for a long-term investment that would

21 bring me profits.

22 262 Q. You do not know what proportion of the value of

23 Westboro is down to you and what is down to your

24 brother?

25 A. I suppose logically I would say that if there were

26 only two of us there, and if we made equal

27 investments, I should be 50%.

28 263 Q. You never asked him this?

29 A. No.

30
 1 264 Q. He never told you?

2 A. No, no.

3 265 Q. Over the years has Westboro paid out a dividend?

4 A. I never got one ha'penny.

5 266 Q. It has not paid out any money?

6 A. I lost everything I had in it. My total investment

7 went.

8 267 Q. Why was that?

9 A. Because at the end of the day with all their

10 investments they eventually got involved in Atlantic

11 Resources and suddenly their borrowings from all

12 sources were being called in and that was the end of

13 it.

14 268 Q. However, stop a moment?

15 A. Yes.

16 269 Q. While you have told us that you do not know what

17 proportion?

18 A. Yes.

19 270 Q. Of the shares in Westboro were held by your brother?

20 A. Yes.

21 271 Q. Even if he had had to turn those shares into cash?

22 A. Yes.

23 272 Q. Because he had liabilities elsewhere?

24 A. Right, yes.

25 273 Q. Surely your interests would have been safe guarded?

26 A. Well, they obviously weren't. All I can tell you

27 under oath is that I never got anything out of

28 Westboro Investments.

29 274 Q. So...(INTERJECTION)?

31
 1 A. I put money in and got nothing out.

2 275 Q. You put your US securities in?

3 A. Well, not all of my US securities. I kept money for

4 myself because I bought a house and things like

5 that.

6 276 Q. All right. However, the bit that you put

7 in...(INTERJECTION)?

8 A. The bit, that went.

9 277 Q. Your brother took those from you and put them into

10 Westboro?

11 A. Yes.

12 278 Q. And at some stage along the line Westboro had to

13 presumably be wound up, ...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. Yes.

15 279 Q. At least the value of its assets had to be turned

16 into cash?

17 A. That is right, yes.

18 280 Q. Is that right?

19 A. I expect so, yes.

20 281 Q. When did that happen?

21 A. I don't know. I have to ask you questions now.

22 When did Atlantic Resources go bang?

23 282 Q. Possibly during the 1980s?

24 A. So, that is when that happened so.

25 283 Q. Did your brother come along to you one day and say

26 to you something to the effect, "I am in dire

27 financial straits and I am going to have to use what

28 we have built up in Westboro to help sort out my

29 liabilities"?

32
 1 A. He just said, "Look, things have gone all wrong".

2 284 Q. Did you ask him about it?

3 A. Well, I was upset about it because I didn't want to

4 lose what I had put in. I asked him what had gone

5 wrong and he told me that the Institutions that he

6 had borrowings from obviously were calling in their

7 money because of the Atlantic Resources situation

8 and he was forced to dispose of whatever.

9 285 Q. However, did you not say, "What about my share"?

10 A. I did and he said, "Well, what can I do?" I know

11 you are not going to believe this but it has to be

12 believed because it is the absolutely truth. I hear

13 this from my wife all the time but I actually got

14 nothing at the end of all of this.

15 286 Q. However, Westboro...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. I left everything to him.

17 287 Q. Was a separate Limited liability company?

18 A. Right.

19 288 Q. How could it possibly have been tied into your

20 brother's liabilities?

21 A. Gosh, I don't know. I haven't an idea about

22 business of any description. I just couldn't tell

23 you. All I can tell you is I invested, what I

24 thought, heavily and got nothing.

25 289 Q. I acknowledge that your professional expertise and

26 so on may well have not caused you to want to be

27 involved on a day-to-day...(INTERJECTION)?

28 A. I never was.

29 290 Q. Interest?

33
 1 A. Yes, yes.

2 291 Q. In the property development and so on?

3 A. Yes .

4 292 Q. Which was Westboro?

5 A. Yes .

6 293 Q. However, surely to goodness you must have been

7 interested in protecting your capital?

8 A. But I was. Naturally I was but I depended totally

9 on my brother to protect my capital.

10 294 Q. From time to time he would have given you copies of

11 accounts of Westboro?

12 A. He didn't really give me copies of accounts of

13 Westboro. He would give me data about investing in

14 X, Y & Z and the possibilities and how good they

15 were going to be or otherwise but I didn't get

16 Balance Sheets as such.

17 295 Q. Are you and your brother still talking?

18 A. We are very frequently. He is my only brother.

19 296 Q. I see. Despite the fact that he seems

20 to...(INTERJECTION)?

21 A. No, I know he didn't intentionally...(INTERJECTION)

22 297 Q. Have been rather cavalier...(INTERJECTION)?

23 A. But he didn't intentionally go out to cause me to

24 lose my money. In my opinion it was just bad luck.

25 Maybe he overextended himself, I don't know.

26 298 Q. In effect, of course, what he must have done was he

27 must have pledged Westboro's shares in support of

28 his borrowings?

29 A. I suppose that must be the case, yes.

34
 1 299 Q. Without telling you?

2 A. No, maybe it was a peculiar relationship but I left

3 it all to him. I said "Look, medicine is what I am

4 involved in and I have put in my money," and I left

5 it to him to make money. As it happened he lost

6 money.

7 300 Q. Do you know whether one of Westboro's investments

8 could have been shares in Atlantic Resources?

9 A. Possibly, yes.

10 301 Q. Might that have been an explanation do you think?

11 A. Well, I ... (INTERJECTION) .

12 302 Q. For what happened?

13 A. Yes. Well, it is a partial explanation because I

14 know that I asked him to buy Atlantic Recourses

15 shares for me, right.

16 303 Q. Right?

17 A. And he said, "Oh, certainly. There would be no

18 problem." So, he bought them through

19 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin.

20 304 Q. Right?

21 A. To the best of my knowledge.

22 305 Q. Right?

23 A. And...(INTERJECTION).

24 306 Q. These shares were bought...(INTERJECTION)?

25 A. For me.

26 307 Q. In your own name?

27 A. They were to be put in my name.

28 308 Q. Is that what happened?

29 A. I never saw any share certificates but obviously

35
 1 that is what happened, and then I didn't pay

2 Guinness & Mahon for these shares. They were

3 obviously paid for out of Westboro Investments.

4 Nobody came along to me and said, "Look," for

5 Guinness & Mahon, "you owe us £X. Give us a cheque

6 please." That didn't happen.

7 309 Q. I suppose that might be a partial understanding of

8 what happened to Westboro Investment, that you gave

9 your brother instructions to buy Atlantic shares?

10 A. I did. I certainly did.

11 310 Q. No doubt one bought them at a price which was then

12 above...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).

14 311 Q. Substantially above the price they

15 eventually...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. I don't even remember what price they were at but

17 that certainly did happen.

18 312 Q. Was your brother involved in the management of

19 Atlantic Resources?

20 A. I think he was on the board of Atlantic Resources.

21 313 Q. Yes?

22 A. I think so, yes.

23 314 Q. Yes?

24 A. Certainly, very close to the people involved any

25 way. So, I presume he probably was on the board.

26 315 Q. Yes. What has become of Westboro now?

27 A. It is nonexistent.

28 316 Q. It is nonexistent?

29 A. Yes .
1 317 Q. It has stopped trading?

2 A. Yes, it is. A long long time it is gone.

3 318 Q. Has it been formally wound up?

4 A. I am sure they did, yes.

5 319 Q. Is Westboro a company incorporated in Ireland?

6 A. To my knowledge, yes.

7 320 Q. Did Westboro invest do you think in any transactions

8 which might have been outside Ireland?

9 A. Not to my knowledge.

10 321 Q. Thank you?

11 A. Thank you.

12

13 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. COLLINS BY MR. ROWAN

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

37
 1 DR. COLLINS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY

2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

4 322 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a few questions

5 Dr. Collins?

6 A. Yes.

7 323 Q. You said that you sold the shares that you had

8 obtained from your uncle around about the time

9 that Mr. Richie Ryan had been bringing in

10 The Finance Bill?

11 A. Well, the tax, yes.

12 324 Q. That was in 1974?

13 A. Right, Okay.

14 325 Q. How long had you been back from the States at that

15 stage?

16 A. 1932.

17 326 Q. I see?

18 A. Yes.

19 327 Q. You had been not been in the States?

20 A. No.

21 328 Q. From then?

22 A. No.

23 329 Q. Whose advice did you seek?

24 A. In what respect? About selling them?

25 330 Q. Yes?

26 A. My brother sought the advice of accountants.

27 331 Q. Who were they?

28 A. Stokes Kennedy Crowley to the best of my knowledge.

29 332 Q. Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

38
 2 333 Q. That was in 1974?

3 A. Yes, around that time.

4 334 Q. Did you have any contact with the accountants?

5 A. No.

6 335 Q. None at all?

7 A. I had my own accountants.

8 336 Q. Who were your own accountants?

9 A. 0'Shea Daly & Company.

10 337 Q. In Cork?

11 A. In Cork city.

12 338 Q. Did they advise you?

13 A. No.

14 339 Q. It was left entirely to your brother in consultation

15 with Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

16 A. Yes.

17 340 Q. Do you know who the accountant was in

18 Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

19 A. Well, now I knew there was a Mr. Sean Mooney.

20 341 Q. Yes?

21 A. But that is about it. Whether he was the accountant

22 or not I don't know.

23 342 Q. Yes. Did you hear the name Don, Mr. Don Reid,

24 mentioned at all?

25 A. I did, yes, indeed.

26 343 Q. You did?

27 A. I did, yes.

28 344 Q. That slipped your mind when I was asking you the

29 question a moment ago?

39
 1 A. Well, you know, I really don't know about these

2 people but I had heard that name.

3 345 Q. Did it slip your mind?

4 A. Yes.

5 34 6 Q. Any other names that you can recall then?

6 A. No, that is it. Oh, Mr. Maurice O'Kelly.

7 347 Q. Yes. Who is Mr. Maurice O'Kelly?

8 A. Well, he was a banker with Guinness & Mahon.

9 348 Q. Yes. You heard of his name?

10 A. I met him.

11 349 Q. Did you?

12 A. Playing golf.

13 350 Q. Socially then?

14 A. Only socially, yes.

15 351 Q. You never met him professionally?

16 A. Never, no.

17 352 Q. Mr. Maurice O'Kelly of Guinness & Mahon you met?

18 A. Yes.

19 353 Q. Did you meet Mr. Don Reid?

20 A. No.

21 354 Q. However, you heard the name mentioned?

22 A. Yes, indeed, yes.

23 355 Q. Any other accountant?

24 A. Sorry?

25 356 Q. Any other accountant?

26 A. No, not that I know of.

27 357 Q. Where you told that these accountants had suggested

28 a financial arrangement by which tax could be

29 avoided, Irish tax could be avoided?

40
 1 A. Gosh, never.

2 358 Q. Never?

3 A. Never.

4 359 Q. You had no idea that your brother had entered into

5 an arrangement to avoid tax?

6 A. Well, he told me he hadn't.

7 360 Q. He had not?

8 A. Yes.

9 361 Q. You see this letter from December 1976?

10 A. Yes.

11 362 Q. From Guinness Mahon Trust Limited?

12 A. Yes.

13 363 Q. Is a letter just addressed to the secretary of your

14 company?

15 A. I see, yes.

16 364 Q. Is it not?

17 A. It is, yes. Certainly, yes.

18 365 Q. Was that never brought to your attention?

19 A. Not really, no.

20 366 Q. Pardon?

21 A. I have no memory of it being brought to my

22 attention.

23 367 Q. Do you think is it likely?

24 A. It is a possibility.

25 368 Q. Yes. If it was brought to your attention would it

26 not have been clear that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

27 Limited was intimately involved in the affairs of

28 your company?

29 A. I wouldn't have taken any notice of it.

41
 1 369 Q. Why not?

2 A. Because I really was not interested in business.

3 370 Q. Would it not have been very strange to suddenly find

4 a company that you and your brother had established

5 had an involvement with the Cayman Islands?

6 A. That would have meant nothing to me.

7 371 Q. Nothing to you?

8 A. No.

9 372 Q. Do you know where the Cayman Islands are?

10 A. I have been there.

11 373 Q. You have been there?

12 A. Yes. I was there on a cruise ship two/three years

13 ago.

14 374 Q. You did not...(INTERJECTION)?

15 A. That is it. Otherwise, no.

16 375 Q. You never...(INTERJECTION)?

17 A. No.

18 376 Q. Before that then?

19 A. No, no.

20 377 Q. You would not have known where they were?

21 A. Never, no.

22 378 Q. You are telling us under oath doctor?

23 A. Right.

24 379 Q. That you did not know anything about the association

25 between your company and Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

26 Limited?

27 A. Yes.

28 380 Q. Is this the first time that you have learnt of it?

29 A. Yes.

42
 1 381 Q. Today?

2 A. Today.

3 382 Q. This morning?

4 A. This morning.

5 383 Q. You brother never told you?

6 A. No, because I asked him before I ever came to Dublin

7 this time.

8 384 Q. Yes?

9 A. I said, "Are you sure that there was never any

10 involvement whatever with this Cayman business?" He

11 said, "I am perfectly sure".

12 385 Q. Yes. You never heard of it?

13 A. No.

14 386 Q. Now...(INTERJECTION)?

15 A. So, I took his word for it of course.

16 387 Q. Would you just look at the paragraph which you have

17 already referred to, the second paragraph?

18 A. Yes .

19 388 Q. It says:

20 "From this you will see that there has

been a slight reduction in the loan
21 capital figure by virtue of the fact
that we have written off the I.E.C.
22 shares at cost. You will recall that
these shares were sold and the sale
23 proceeds credited directly to the
account of Dr. Barrie Collins at
24 Marine Midland Bank."

25

26 A. Yes .

27 389 Q. As I understand your evidence is that probably it

28 would appear that some of the money, the American

29 money, you had -- which you said was in the AIB Bank

43
 1 in New York, may have been put into this company

2 Redhall Investments Limited?

3 A. The money I had in the Bank never went into Redhall?

4 390 Q. Yes?

5 A. No, I...(INTERJECTION).

6 391 Q. Can you explain then why the money was being sent to

7 your account in this Marine Midland Bank?

8 A. No, I can't.

9 392 Q. What do you make of this letter? What do you make

10 of that paragraph?

11 A. Well, obviously money was put into a Marine Midland

12 Bank in my name in my name and my...(INTERJECTION).

13 393 Q. But...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. The way I read it now is it was the money from the

15 proceeds of sales of my America securities.

16 394 Q. Yes. This company, Redhall Investments

17 Limited...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. Now...(INTERJECTION).

19 395 Q. Had been involved in the sale of your securities and

20 was putting the money from the sale of your

21 securities into this bank, is that how you are

22 reading it? Is that it?

23 A. That is my reading of it, yes.

24 396 Q. Can you explain how your money, the proceeds of the

25 sale of your securities, got into a

26 Cayman Island company?

27 A. I haven't any idea.

28 397 Q. Yes?

29 A. I never even knew such a thing happened.

 2 A. It looks like it here now, yes.

3 399 Q. Yes. When you said you sold your shares in 1974 or

4 so, and went into Westboro, was that when Westboro

5 was established, incorporated, first?

6 A. I think so, yes.

7 400 Q. Yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 401 Q. This was the time that you or your brother discussed

10 the affairs with...(INTERJECTION)?

11 A. Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

12 402 Q. Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

13 A. Yes.

14 403 Q. And with Mr. Maurice O'Kelly of Guinness & Mahon?

15 A. Well, he certainly got advice from an accountant and

16 my knowledge is that the accountant was at

17 Stokes Kennedy Crowley.

18 404 Q. Yes. Did he ever show you any of the documents, any

19 of the written opinions, that he got from them, if

20 he got any from them?

21 A. No, he didn't.

22 405 Q. Did he have a solicitor advising him in this matter?

23 A. Gosh, I am sure he must have but I can't say.

24 406 Q. Who was your solicitor at that time?

25 A. My solicitor?

26 407 Q. Yes?

27 A. Mr. Michael Pole.

28 408 Q. Mr. Michael Pole?

29 A. Yes.

45
 1 409 Q. Was he your brother's solicitor?

2 A. I don't think so.

3 410 Q. Who was his...(INTERJECTION)?

4 A. Yes, he was at one stage, yes.

5 411 Q. Was he at this stage?

6 A. Well, now whether he was at that stage or not I

7 don't know.

8 412 Q. Who else? What other firm of solicitors would he

9 have been with?

10 A. I know he subsequently was with O'Flynn Exham.

11 413 Q. When was that?

12 A. I can't tell you. I don't know.

13 414 Q. Yes. At the time that you were setting up this

14 company with him do you not remember the firm of

15 solicitors that were involved? Did you not have to

16 sign some documents establishing the company?

17 A. I probably had but I don't remember.

18 415 Q. I see?

19 A. Who his solicitors were but they would either have

20 been O'Flynn Exhams.

21 416 Q. Who in O'Flynn Exhams was the solicitor?

22 A. Probably Frank O'Flynn.

23 417 Q. Frank O'Flynn?

24 A. Yes. Now, this is my opinion. Now, he might turn

25 around and say that is not true.

26 418 Q. Yes, he might. Very well. Thank you doctor?

27 A. Yes.

28 419 Q. Ms. Mackey would like to ask you some more

29 questions?

46
 1 A. All right.

3 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. COLLINS BY MR. JUSTICE

4 COSTELLO.

7 DR. COLLINS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY

9 420 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just two more questions

10 Dr. Collins. Did you ever

11 meet Mr. Desmond Traynor?

12 A. No.

13 421 Q. Never?

14 A. No.

15 422 Q. Neither socially...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. No.

17 423 Q. Nor through business?

18 A. No.

19 424 Q. I just wanted to ask you a question or two about

20 Mr. Frank Lee, who is the secretary of Westboro?

21 A. Right, yes.

22 425 Q. Is he still living?

23 A. Gosh, yes.

24 426 Q. He is, yes?

25 A. Yes.

26 427 Q. Did he come into Westboro at the same time that you

27 and your brother incorporated it? Was he a friend

28 of yours or how did he...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. He wasn't a friend of mine, no.

47
 1 428 Q. How did he...(INTERJECTION)?

2 A. I think he was with my brother prior to that.

3 429 Q. In what connection?

4 A. Well, my brother had Heffernan's Travel Agency.

5 430 Q. Yes?

6 A. And still has.

7 431 Q. Yes?

8 A. And I think he was involved. He was involved in

9 that.

10 432 Q. He was involved in Heffernan's Travel Agency?

11 A. Yes.

12 433 Q. Then he became secretary of this company?

13 A. Yes.

14 434 Q. On the winding up of the company what became of him?

15 A. I think he resigned his position.

16 435 Q. Prior to the winding up?

17 A. Yes, I think so, yes.

18 436 Q. Did he?

19 A. Yes.

20 437 Q. Why was that?

21 A. Now, you know, I am just thinking this now.

22 438 Q. Yes?

23 A. This may not be 100% accurate.

24 439 Q. Yes?

25 A. But my recollection is that he did resign his

26 position before everything wound up.

27 440 Q. Right. Do you know why that was?

28 A. May be he was afraid he might be caught for monies.

29 I don't know. I honestly don't know. You would

48
1 have to ask him that.

2 441 Q. Where did he go then? Where is he now do you know?

3 A. He runs a travel agency.

4 442 Q. The same?

5 A. Yes .

6 443 Q. Heffernan's still?

7 A. No, no, a different one.

8 444 Q. In Cork?

9 A. In Cork, yes.

10 445 Q. What is the name of the travel agency?

11 A. McCarthy Travel.

12 446 Q. McCarthy Travel. Okay. Thank you very much?

13 A. All right. Thank you. Can I take these with me, or

14 not?

15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, you can have them if

16 you wish.

17 A. Thank you.

18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Doctor, we will require

19 you to sign the transcript

20 of this evidence.

21 A. All right, yes.

22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Ms. Cummins will be in

23 touch with you.

24 A. Yes .

25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: When it is available.

26 A. Yes. Thank you.

27

28 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.

29
TfVAo-C^ GUOWIV-VK (\i

•Sc>VkCx-Vor*

ST Slogo
Appendix XV (19) (l)(b)
 GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Monter of tht Gubtn** Mahoa Mffchwt atflJcfna Graup
ffo 9—0253/4
T«lflj>hQfiB
Tilwc C?305
Grand Cjryman
CabJ»Add**» Gubimm
Mlfrh W r n IndUs

yourm#
OttflHf JAF/&1
Uh Vezzmbvi, 1976
Ibu FJtank Let
r.Uontznottz

' : IREUIW
.flttft fotfll*,

KEDHALL JNVESTUBITS LIMITED

*edhall mm

I nam have p&LUuAt

MCjHKfc, Sfte^jtoepatei
a* <t£ 3<ttft Atov<w6e/t exptewed In Fotwd Sta&iia. thii you
mitt 4ee -tfie/t* been <t 4££0f£ In tht toon tapItaZ
Hqwii by vlfitu* tht Aact that mt fatve.wfUtttn c(£ tfuL J.E.C.
4/tafceA at aiiCi ntcaJU that tht&i &tuvit* wwl bold and
the. AaZz piocttcU cAtdlttd dlAzctty to tht account o& P*. BtruUt
CottlnS at UaXlnt ftidtand Bank.
Tht accooipanylng TM&it and Leu Account *Jum tncJuly two IttM,
vumtJbj the book ptofcJ: on txchangt tuuZUng from a Atvatuatlan
Jn-tzAM o{ St&iLtng o{ ifce. Voltwu hztd by gtdhalL Tht othvt
Itm on tht ?Ko(M and Lou Account I& tht Jbntviut tanned on tht
A/X-4 dtpa&it account ptloK to tht coyivvulon o{ tht baZanct, o{ tht
ac&oimt Into US dottaA*.
In 4a lax tht &fi£&znzd> having dtipottd o& th*.
tht ISp^HaKt* oi Wrta&InJ
Pondtnota Ini/WJMi^^ th&mpt-we&i havt bitn Xndxvatt
by blAtui oiitkt mtQQM* advanced finally, Incx^ttL
\i^Q^e mlU hotlzt an In&ittut In thi:A/X-4'i
baZanct by uirtfut o{ tht httviUt atlowzd pita*, to tonve/Ulort:
. If*. fJuutk'Ut
9th Vtambi*, 1976
Vagt 1

On tht auwptian that you will 5c in a position to a&itL tkt Stutlino

AlaaftU Ahown It tkt tneloAtd aeeoantt, wt have. now tomvtttd ttt
bahouus to U.S. dotlau at anexchangt Katt oi 7.65. AHo tntljutd
dU accounti <u at 30th UovtxBeJitxpUAAed in fi.J. dottwu, tndJ - ••
pnojxat that theie torn tkt BojUs o{ pvtuu.'iir.nrtw»ti»g. Ttukapt 90a
•would bt kind enough to Ut wt bum mttRvi you. atfux that UaMTA
and also advi&t mt U go* hawe any quvUu. -
Twining now to the. accounti o{ Zedhtrtl Tvut, t aa in exactly tkt. 4ami
mnnt/L vtnloAing a&aounti which J think you mitl (bid Aeiiixnlaiutong
both in Pound StMtihg and in U.S. SotloM. On&t again, periapt you •
would bt kind enough to ten&Um1 you*, agjuamnt to tht dolls*. &lauku
ao that wt eon uuutt youn /tecowA agut t with a tin.
Finally, I would mention that tkuu i& a Amll avetdJutft on tht bank
account o{ Kedhatl Vuat and as tkuu. wilt bt ccpeuc* ov«t tkt next
two montiu in tht iofin oi Bovttamtnt {tti, etc. {on Zedhalt lwatatnts
Limited, I pHopoAt instructing At Leornxd to eloAt tht A/X-4 call
dtpoAit account remitting thoAt iundA to ut {oi audit to tkt ewuent
account o£ Htdhall IwHAtatntA Limited. I take.'it tkU action muti
with ffouA. eppnovat.
Ovtn tht eouue oi tht ntxt itut day*, I wilt be waiting to mu Atndixa
Aimilafi. account* both in Pound Stealing and U.S. delta* tot the. vaitSiu
entitle* with which wt ant mtually involved.
You*a Ainctiely,

JOm A. FURZE

Encli.
 /for*. Arr^ti^c

xevkail wmrmtrs Limreo

• t•
P.O. Box M7, Gtand Caput, 8.0.1.

Balance. Sfteet <u at 3&tk flovtabvi Wt

(expte44td <i* k Attt££*g)

um\mesi-
Skant Capital. Hi. 00
Loon Capital $t,t71.61
TKoUt t Loii Account -
ta $1-3-117$ $S,m.t1
to 15-10-1976 15,197.34
to $0-11-1976 44,ttS.74 116,U1.t1
kJ74,66J.50

TUfXMtxted byi-

ASSETS i-

Stupenit Account 41.U0.77

InveAtumnt 750.00
Loani (joe* Schtfhit.e) 1t1,t57.t4
Fixtd Vtpoiit - US$ Utt Note J1 i0,ttl.66
Call Vtpoiit - US4 Uu Note 2) 503.19
Cuuient A&eotutt •

fcT7*,MJ.50

Hott 1 The U.S. VottUL Fixed VtpoUt eonUitA oi US$16,963.76 which

«xu placed on deposit vatui 15th OetabeA, 1976 Bvutuning
15tk kpnil, 1177 a.t 71 p.a..

Note Z The. U.S. Dollax Call OepoUt eomiiti of US$790.57 utkich wa* placed
on depoiit value ttth Octobex, 1976 at 4 1/t% p.a.
 teoHALL mesnms L1KTJW

?xoUt and Lo&i Ae&omt hum 1Sth0atob*A."l976

to 30th UoveabtA 1976

INCOME;-
foJuJgn txcJuutgt pio{it 44,ttZ.lt
7k£mcit Juntivablt 3.46
k4*,ttS.74

645.12
ftl,fff.ff
klU,lS7.U
n
 KBDHALL 1NV£STUENTS IXOTTBP
7.0. Box it7, Stand Cayman, B.W.I.

Balance Sheet OA at 30th Nov4itbUHT6

iexp/uMtd in U.S. DoJUwu! N

ilABXUTJESi-
Shaxe Capital 165,00
Capital 96,149.16
P>to&it S Lou Account
to 31-5-1975 91,751.t4
to 15-10*1916 t6,065.61
to 30-11-1976 74,0l9.4t

KepteAtntxd btft-

ASSETS:-
Suspenst Account 6t,OSO.t7
Investment 1,837.50
Loans (see. ScheduleJ t0l,064.45
Fixed DeposJt - US$ Uti Mete 1) 16,963.76
Call Deposit - US$ Utt Mote. Z) 790.5.T
CuMtnt Account 11.94
US$2M,149.43

Note 1 The. U.S. Votla/i fixed Deposit ms placed on deposit value

15th Oetob&i 1976. matuMng J5th ApUt 1977 at 7t p.a.

Note. 2 Tht U.S. VottaA. Call Deposit mas placid on deposit value
2Sth October 1976 at 4 J/tt p.a.
 REDHAU TWIST

<•<( Afltofai <U at SCtk Hovtmbt*. tWS

(txpttUtd -Ik U.S. VottoM 1

. Capital 1,064.45
AuvUt-
ga Itoftatt lmiuiMtnH ltd.
Sfcttu tiki iaek
1 Mff M • faM ZKttXM&ioml Ltd.
' Saul dj usjf.oo took
(100.55) CoMcnt Account
US^TIOXMS 05*1,^.45
Appendix XV (19) (1) (d)
1 A. Yes.
2 114 Q. Very well. You Bee this refers to a trust "Redhall
3 Trust" and "Redhall Investment Limited"?
4 A. Yes.
5 115 Q. would you tell me about that?
6 A. X recall those. I assume they were used to hold
7 some of those deposits.
8 116 Q- No, no. Tell me about it? Tell me about Redhall
9 Trust?
10 A. X recognise the name.
11 117 Q. However, tell me more than that. How was it that it
12 came to be established in the Cayman islands?
13 A. I assume by SKC. There were a lot of companies
14 effectively pulled off shelves. That was one of
15 them. I remember the name.
16 118 Q. Tell me about it then? What do you remember about
17 it?
18 A. I assume it held monies on deposit belonging to me.
19 119 Q. Pardon?
20 A. X assume it held monies on deposit belonging to me.
21 120 9- What monies?
22 A. The proceeds of the sale of US securities.
23 121 Q. Perhaps, you would tell me then a bit about that.
24 This was apparently a trust established, was it?
25 A. X don't recall it as such as a trust.
26 122 Q. Yes. However, it must have got
27 some...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. It...(INTERJECTION).
29 123 Q. It must have got funds. I mean look at
1 the...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Yes.
3 124 Q. Look over the page?
4 A. Right.
5 125 Q. You see the accounts over the page?
6 A. Yes.
7 126 Q. Balance sheet, profits it made in 1975/1976?
8 A. Yes.
9 127 Q. Tell me about how it was established Mr. Collins?
10 A. I assume it was established between SKC and
11 Guinness & Mahon.
12 128 Q. Yes. Mr. Lee or you got accounts about it?
13 A. Yes.
14 129 Q. Where did it get its funds from?
15 A. From me.
16 130 Q. Do you recall what funds you gave it and when?
17 A. Specifically, no, but they would have been the sale
18 of US securities.
19 131 Q. You sold US securities?
20 A. Sold some.
21 132 Q. Some?
22 A. If not all at some stage, yes, securities.
23 133 Q. Some of the securities then were sold and were
24 deposited then or transferred to Guinness Mahon
25 Cayman Trust Limited?
26 A. Yes.
27 134 Q. Did you know Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited was
28 a trustee company?
29 A. Yes, I must have.
1 135 Q. You must have. Can you explain to me how this
2 Redhall Trust was established and apparently
3 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was managing it?
4 A. It would have been established by SKC in conjunction
5 with Guinness & Mahon.
6 136 Q. On your instructions?
7 A. Yes, on the foot of their advice.
8 137 Q. Yes. You did instruct them to so establish it?
9 A. Yes.
10 138 Q. Can you remember that now?
11 A. Instructing them?
12 139 Q. Yes?
13 A. What I can remember is the advice being given and
14 accepted and, "Yes, go ahead."
15 140 Q. What was the advice?
16 A. The advice was to keep the monies out of Ireland.
17 141 Q. No, no. It is much more specific than that. What
18 advice were you given and you said, "Go ahead", in
19 relation to the establishment of the Redhall Trust?
20 A. The advice I was given I assume was to do it in this
21 manner.
22 142 Q. What manner?
23 A. They already had.... (INTERJECTION) .
24 143 Q. What manner?
25 A. Setting up this trust.
26 144 Q- Yes?
27 A. Or deposit.
28 145 Q. No, no?
29 A. With Guinness & Mahon.
No, no. Let us not -- let us be more specific?
Right.
You do not set up a deposit. You put money on
deposit. Was this not a trust established
Mr. Collins?
I can't honestly say it was. A trust is something
that goes on.
What can you honestly say then?
it was a vehicle to take monies that I gave it for
deposit.
As far as you know then was that money was on
deposit?
Yes.
Would you have a look at the accounts?
Yes.
Where does it show in these accounts that the
Redhall Trust had money on deposit? Would you look
at the last page or the second last page. Yes, the
last page. It is The Redhall Trust statement of
affairs. It is capital 1,064.45. The assets: 100
shares in Redhall Investments. 1,000 shares in
Agar International and the current account. That is
the trust?
Yes.
Is that not so?
That is what it says, yes.
There was a trust and that is the statement of
affairs of the trust in 1976?
Obviously.
• rN

1 154 Q. Obviously?
2 A. Yes.
3 155 Q. Then it appears that the trust held 100 shares in
4 Redhall Investments?
5 A. Yes.
6 156 Q. It looks then as if Redhall Investments then was the
7 vehicle which carried on, held, the funds, is that
8 not so?
9 A. Yes.
10 157 Q. What was Agar international Limited?
11 A. Agar I think was another company set up, just
12 holding deposits.
13 158 Q. Holding deposits?
14 A. Yes.
15 159 Q. Where were the deposits?
16 A. Pardon?
17 160 Q. Where were the deposits?
18 A. I presume GHCT.
19 161 Q. Yes. Who was the beneficial owner of these funds?
20 A. I had funds and a brother of mine had funds there.
21 162 Q. No, these particular ones?
22 A. Yes.
23 163 Q. That were being sent to Mr. Frank Lee on your
24 behalf?
25 A. I think...(INTERJECTION).
26 164 Q. who owned these?
27 A. I think Agar, in fact, was my brothers.
28 165 Q. Yes?
29 A. I think.
1 Q. And the other company was yours, was it?
2 A. Redhall, is it?
3 167 Q. Yes?
4 A. I would think so, yes.
5 168 Q. Yes. is that Dr. Collins, your brother?
6 A. Yes.
Appendix XV (20) Lady Carole Conyngham (formerly Carole
Power Yorke)
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Lady Carole Conyngham.

a) Letter of 13 June 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to Carole Yorke.

b) Letter of 14 June 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to Carole Yorke.

c) Letter of 26 August - Carole Yorke to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Guinness and Mahon credit committee memo of 30 August 1978.

MCX/3Y , 13th June. 1977.

Mrs. Carole Yorke,

47, 3t. Haur Road.
?ulhan,
LONEON, S. W. 6.

Dear Carole,
Capoyo Limited

I enclose letter received from Guinness Hahon

Cayman Trust Limited la connection with the above-mentioned
company.
?roa discussions with I understand there
is sane further distribution to cone from Morgan Guaranty
Trust Company. However, as t'aey ha-/a no authority to
?i'/e us Information In this regard, I would surest that
you write to them directly requesting details of the
amounts etc.
Perhayc •• vould give jxe a call iv „«» course
to discuss th> . ints raised in John Furze's letter.
Xind regards.
Yours sincerely.

Martin C. Xeane.
Appendix XV (20) (1) (b)
MCX/BY 14th June, 1977.

llrs. Carole Yorke,

47, St. Maur Road,
Fulhaa,
LONDON, S. W. 6.

Dear Carole,
Thank you for your letter of 10th June.
I confirm that the cheque has been sent for credit
to the account of Capoyo Llaited with GuLnnass Mahon Cayaan
Trust Liaited who have been told to hold the aoney on
Call Deposit Account.
Could you drop ae a note in good time before
you next come to Ireland so that we can arrange for a
half day to deal with all outstanding aatters In relation
to the Trust etc.
Kind regards*
Yours sincerely,

Martin C. Keane.
Appendix XV (20) (1) (c)
 August 26th
/J, Q, Keane
791 QpJLLege Qreen
guinness Mahon
Dublin. 2
£ire

Dear flh Keane

7h.Lt letter is to confiAMt my application to Quinness Mahon
fro*, a Loan {.on. investment purposes, 7he amount in question. is
twenty, seven, thousand pounds fon. a period ot six months but with,
a strona possibility that 3 shall only need the loan {.ox four months,
3 would pay the interest at the end of. six, months or earlier as
indicated,
3 will place as collateral the freehold of. this house which has
been valued at £ j j thousand a yean ago, 3 am arranging {.ok an up to
date valuation which should be oven thirty eight thousand.
Secondly 3 offer as collateral a guarrantee from Qohn Fur%e thai
if it should happen that there is a short f,'.all upon my investment
that he will seil securities from, Qapoyo Ltdto reimburse you immediate
Le 3 will hold certain funds aside if required for the benefit
of Quinness fllahon if such a need arose, as in the above instance.
From our conversation it appeard thai 3 might be able to
receive the loan at your earliest convenience next week
ant? look forward to hearing, from youon receipt of this letter.

!/ours Sincerly

c w e yu-fe
Qarole Q yorke

PS 3 cannot find the valuation anywhere amongst my papers but will

try & get a copy•
Appendix XV (20) (l)(d)
 Minutes of the 232nd Meeting of the
Banklng/CredU Committee held at 17
College Green, Dublin 2, on Friday,
25th August, 1978.
PRESENT: M. E. O'K. - M. J. P. - J. S. M. - P. J. F. - P. O'D. - I. W. K.

814: Mn. Carole Yorke: 4i

Amount: £15,000
fatpase: Personal Loan
Term: 30/9/1979.
Rate: 2% over base
Security: Title Deeds of property. (Shortfall Guarantee GMCT)
Recommended.
Signed_
Dated
. i
n ttif-

T
Appendix XV (21) Mr Hugh Coveney, deceased
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Hugh Coveney.

a) Telex memo of 27 February 1976 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.

b) Telex of 9 April 1979 - GMCT to P Collery & internal Guinness and

Mahon memo - P O'Dwyer to Foreign Exchange.

c) Guinness and Mahon statement of 23 April 1979 re GMCT.

d) Lynbrette Trust Deed.

e) Extract of evidence to Moriarty Tribunal by Hugh Coveney.

Appendix XV (21) (1) (a)
Vi ' tr
-f
.-Jf'."-" . — TELEX MESSftee

•*»•••'-V .M
. _ IE .v » •
-
f •••.•. • - • • ~ •• ••

• '>4 ' • ••
TO:' JOHN POBZE. GUINNESS MAHON CAIMAN THtJST LTD., -
• 4 .. •• . . •
' DATE: 27"Uu Pet. 1976.
" c „"•. TEST:
• . "re8 G.M.C.T. HC. DOLLAR DEPOSIT,

Above natures 9/3/76 jgnd it is intended to keep on Call pending your

arrival in Dublin. Beneficiary may consider snail investment portfolio
in say six T7.S.£s33ssr Stockjof substance with gxovth potential, vith '
approz. #60,000.00.
Perhaps you
iu vould^conaider
vould consider the ab
above and ve will discuss in due course
L ^^ —
Bu Leonard.

AUTHORISED BY:
•DEBIT:
COST:
" FILE:
f :
Appendix XV (21) (l)(b)
APRIL 9/79
GM DUBLIN
ATT7 P. COLLERY
RET- H.C. -US'- DOLLAR DEPOSIT
PLEASE DEBIT THE ABOVE ACCOUNT WITH THE DOLLAR EQUIVALENT OF STG.
20C0.C0. PLEASE THEN REMIT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE THE SUM OF STG
2000 TO MIDLAND SANK LTD, 86 HIGH STREET,COWES,ISLE OF WIGHT FOR
CREDIT TO THE CURRENT ACCOUNT OF MR HUGH COVENEY*
GUIWESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST
5205 MARS El
05GU1WESS CPV Srv
52C3 MARS El

• • • * i • •

nil ORAM PPM

To: .. Foreign Exchange. 2nd Ajpril, 1979

From: .P. O'Dwyer. '

s
Please pay Chase attan Bank, 110 'West 52nd Street, New York
10019 4the sum of .$ 2,280 for account fWfern'Account No. 037-1-0607T

Debit G.II.C

Vo Lmk

. /

d j
Appendix XV (21) (1) (c)
S .-.Vts'?'.-

S3***

W—.CT-'- •. W.«. Miuit*' .'-'^J^p 4 * ' • .. •"•'•"•"•••" '.'^if.

• • •••S-.v.
" •..M • IIKWH n m • • ii' UBIA9CVI
„ M ••, MMSH vu.i • , •"*••«•«» - • .„•r^.rtffi
. iUMfl Wab*
k,,.:
r

THE LYNBRETTE TRUST

* * * * * * * * * A A A A * * * * * *

770269
George Town,
Grand Caymn

THIS DECLARATION OF TRUST is made the 22ndday of MAY , 1951

3Y: GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Cayman Company with its registered office
at George Town, Grand Cayman, British West Indies

WHEREAS the sum of U.S. Dollars has been transferred to

the said Guinness Mahori Cayman Trust Limited to the intent
that it shall be held on the trusts hereinafter declared
which shall be known as the " LYNBRETTE " Trust.

NOW THIS DEED WITNESSETH as follows:

1. In this deed the following expressions shall
have the following meanings
(1) • "The Trustee" means the said Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Limited or other the trustee
or trustees for the time being a from time
to tine hereof.-
(ii) "The Beneficiaries" means the persons specified
in the First Schedule hereto.
till) "The Scheduled Property" means the said sua
of
(iv) "The Trust Fund" means:
a) The Scheduled Property, and
b) Any further or additional Droperty vhich
any person or persons may donate to or vest
or* cause to be vested in the Trustee to be
held uoon the trusts and with and subject ~o
the oowers and provisions hereof, and
c) The prooertv for the time being and
from time to time representing the Scheduled
Prooerty and the further or additional
oroperty (if anv) aforesaid.
(v) "The Perpetuity ^ate" means the day
(aj or, which shall expire the period of Eighty
years from the execution of this Deed, or
(b) the day on which shall expire the cerioc of
twenty 'years from the death of the last surviverr

770270
 of all descendants male and female of King George
• Fifth living on the date hereof (whichever- shall
first occur"), or
(c) such earlier date as the; Trustee shall at
its absolute discretion by deed appoint.
(vi) "Property" means real personal movable or immovable
prooerty of any description and wheresoever situate
including policies cash and choses in action.
(t) The Trustee hereby declares that the Trustee will
hold the Trust Fund uoon the trusts and with and
subject to the powers and provisions hereinafter
contained.
(it) The Trustee shall have the right at any time during
the continuance of the trust hereby created to
accept such additional property as may be donated
to such trust by any person or persons either
personally or by testamentary act or disposition.
(i) The Trustee shall stand possessed of the capital
.and income of the Trust Fund in trust for all or
such one or more' exclusively of the others or other
of the Beneficiaries at such age or time or
respective ages or times If more than one in such
Shares and with such tnists for their resoectlve
benefit and such provisions for their respective
advancement maintenance and education at the
discretion of the Trustee as the Trustee shall by
any deed or deeds revocable or irrevocable executed
before the Perpetuity Date appoint.
(ii) No appointment shall be made revoked or revocable
on or after the Perpetuity Date.
(in) Any revocable aoDointment may be made or revoked
by the Trustee for the time being notwithstanding
that the persons who make the appointment and
revoke the appointment may not be or include the
same persons.
(i) In default of and subject to any such appointment
as aforesaid the Trustee may until the Perpetuity
date pay or apoly the whole or such part as the
Trustee' shall think fit of the income of the Trust
Fund as it arises to or for the maintenance
education advancement or benefit of all or such
one or more of the Beneficiaries for the time beln<?
in existence in such oroportions or manner as the
Trustee shall in the uncontrolled discretion of
the Trustee from time to time think fit;
(ii) Subject as1 aforesaid the Trustee shall until che

770271
 Petpetuity Date deal with the income of the Trust
Fund or so much thereof a? shall not be paid or
applied as aforesaid by accumulating the same as an
accretion to the capital of the Trust Fund.
5, In default and subject as aforesaid the Trustee shall
stand possessed of the capital and income of the Trust Fund upor
trust for such of the Beneficiaries as shall be in existence
iBiaediatelv before the Perpetuity Date if more than one in such
share as it shall think fit in its absolute discretion or if
there shall be no such person then uoon trust for the charitable
institution named in the second schedule hereto absolutely.
o. The Trustee shall have and may exercise at its absolute
discretion at any time or times and from time to time power to
pay or aoply the" whole or any part or parts of the Trust Fund
Co'or for the advancement or benefit of all or any one or more
exclusively of the others or other of the Beneficiaries in such
manner as the Trustee shall in its absolute discretion wichout
being liable to account for the exercise of such discretion
think fit including the purchase of an annuity. for any
Beneficiaries but so that the Trustee may at any time but at its
absolute discretion release this present power in whole or in
part.
7. Notwithstanding any of the trusts Dowers and orovislons
herein contained the Trustee shall have Dower at any time or
times before the Perpetuity Date by deed revocable or irrevocable
to release any power right or discretion vested in the Trustee
under the trusts hereof.
8. No benefit devolving on any Beneficiary under this trust
shall form or constitute" a portion of any communal or joint
estate of such Benefi&iary but such benefit shall be and remain
Che sole separate and -exclusive orooerty of such Beneficiary
and should such Beneficiary be married or marry In community of
property then any benefit so devolving shall be expressly
excluded from the community and in the case of the Beneficiary
being female such benefit shall also be free from the
interference control or marital oower of any husband of such
Beneficiary for the eurposes of this Clause the word "benefit"
shall include movable and 1 removable property and the provisions
of this Clause shall apply moreover not only to the benefits
actually devolving on any Beneficiary but also to the
property for the time being representing the same anc the incone
thereof.
9. In addition to all the powers vested in trustees by law
or statute the Trustee without the interposition of any
Beneficiary shall have and may exercise from time to time the
following powers:
To r e t a i n a n y o r o p e r t y b e l o n g i n g t o o r f o r m i n g
p a r t o f t h e T r u s t Fund i n t h e a c t u a l s t a t e o r
c o n d i t i o n i n v h i c h t h e same s h a l l b e r e c e i v e d b v the

77097?.
 Trustee so long as the Trustee shall think oroDsr
- * without being answerable for any loss occasioned
thereby.
(ii) To sell alienate or otherwise dispose of all or
any property at any time forming part of the Trust
Fund in such manner by public or private treaty and
for such price in money or other consideration
and on such conditions as the Trustee may think
prooer and to receive the consideration price and
grant discharges therefor.
(ill) To exercise all the voting oowers attaching to
any shares stock debenture or Other securities
(hereinafter called "securities") at any time
forming part of the Trust Fund.
(iv) To exchange property for other property of a like
or different nature and for such consideration
and on such' conditions as- the Trustee may consider
advisable.
(v) To comoromise and, settle for such consideration
' and upon such terms and conditions as the Trustee
may consider advisable all matters arising in
relation to the trusts hereby created or the Trust
Fund and all such compromises and settlements
shall be binding on all the Beneficiaries.
(vi) To surrender and. deliver up any securities forming
part of the Trust Fund for suh consideration and
upon such terms and conditions as the Trustee
- may aporove to any company or corporation reducing
its capital and the Trustee may receive such
consideration in the form of cash securities or
other assets &s may be agreed between the Trustee
and such other corporation.
(vii) To consent to any re-organisation or re-cons true tior.
of any company or corporation the securities of
which" form part of the Trust Fund and to consent
to any reduction of capital or other dealings
with such securities as the Trustee may consider
advantageous or desirable.
(viii) To invest or lay out any moneys forming part of
the Trust Fund or the proceeds of sale without
regard to the provisions of The Trusts Law (Law
6 of 19S7) or any Act passed in amendment thereof
or in substitution therefor in the purchase cf
or at interest upon the security of such stocks
funds shares or* securities or other investmer.es
or property movable or immovable of whatsoever
nature and situated anywhere in the world and
whather in possession or. reversion (including

770273
 the purchase of any freehold or leasehold land
with* or without any house or other buildings thereor
or plant or live or dead stock or chattels for
the-beneficial occupation use or enjoyment of
any Beneficiary or Beneficiaries ana including
any policy of assurance on the* life of any person
or any endowment or other policy and the payment
of the premiums in respect thereof) and whether
In the name of the Trustee or in the names of
nominees or in any other manner giving the Trustee
control of the .same or upon such Dersonal credit
with or without security as the Trustee at its
absolute discretion shall think fit and in addition
(but without prejudice to the generality of the
powers hereby given) trust moneys may be laid
but in paying for any improvement addition alteratic
demolition amendments cleaning repair
to or of any house or other building or chattels '
for the time being forming cart of the Trust Fund
to the intent that the Trustee shall have the
same full and unrestricted power of investing and
varying investments and property in all respects
as a beneficial owner (including all the powers
of a beneficial gvner as regards charging leasing
management and otherwise In respect of any
freehold or leasehold property including surrender-
ing or dealing with any policy of assurance
forming part of the Trust Fund).
(ix) To purchase or otherwise acquire or to invest
reinvest or refrain from investing the Trust Fund
wholly or partially in common stock or in any
other*securities (without regard to whether such
shall.be listed on.any stock exchange or other
public market' registered with any securities
commissions or similar bodies or subject to
contractural legal or other restrictions including
"investment letter" restrictions) or other type or
types of assets whether or not such assets
snail be productive of income or shall constitute
"Securities" in any sense including but not limited
to bonds notes debentures mortRa?es preferred
stocks puts or calls beneficial Interests in land
trusts interests or shares in common trust funds
mutual funds "open-end" or "closed-end" investment
trusts or funds real estate investment trusts or
savings and loan or building and loan associations
oil gas or other mineral interests or natural
resources livestock o r o t h e r animals comodities
foreign exchange insurance or endowment p o l i c i e s
annuities variable annuities o r other p r o p e r t y o r
undivided interests i n p r o p e r t y f o r e i g n o r domestic
and t h e Trustee is e x p r e s s l y authorized t o make
speculative investments i f it deems s u c h a d v i s a b l e
without limitation by a n y 'prudent man r u l e 1
or r u l e of reasonableness o r anv o t h e r statute

COIAriM 4
 or rule of law regarding investment by trustees
and the making of such investments shall In no
event be construed as a breach of trust and-in
that connection without limiting the generality
of the foregoing to invest the Trust Fund or any
part thereof in any oartnership limited partnership
joint venture or association and to be able to
have and exercise all the powers of management
and participation in.the management necessary
and incident to an investment in such partnership
limited partnership or other venture including
the incurring of joint and several liabilities
with other members and the making of any election
available under any tax law by such partnership
or venture and at any time to participate in the
incorporation of any such partnership or vednture
Co open accounts margin or otherwise with brokerage
firms, banks or other wheresoever in the world
to invest the funds of the Trust Fund in and to
conduct maintain and operate such accounts directly
or through an agent for the purchase sale and
exchange of commodities stocks bonds and other
securities and in connection therewith to borrow
money obtain guarantees and engage in all other
activbities necessary or incidental to conducting
maintaining and operating such accounts.
(x) To pay out of the income or capital of the Trust
Fund all the costs of and incidental to the
preparation execution and stamping of this Deed.
(xi) To determine whether any sums received or disbursed
are on account of capital or income or partly
on account of one and partly on account of the
other and in what proportions and the decisions
of the Trustee whether made in writing or implied
from the acts of the Trustee shall be conclusive
and binding on all the beneficiaries.
(xii) a) To employ and pay for such professional
or other assistance as the Trustee may deem requisi
in the discharge of the duties of the Trustee.
b) To act oh the opinion or advice of or
information obtained from any financial adviser
lawyer valuer surveyor broker auctioneer or other
expert or professional person and so that the
Trustee shall not be responsible for any loss
depreciation or damage occasioned by acting or
not acting in accordance therewith.
(xiii) To d e t e r m i n e a l l q u e s t i o n s and m a t t e r s o f d o u b t
w h i c h may a r i s e i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t
administration realisation liquidation partition
o r w i n d i n g up o f t h e T r u s t Fund.

770275
(xiv) Generally to perform all acts of alienation
•• hypothecation and other acts of ownership to the
same extent and with the same effect as the Trustee
might • have done if it had been the beneficial
owner and the decision and action of the Trustee
whether actually made or taken in writing or irapller
from the acts of the Trustee shall be conclusive
and binding on all the Beneficiaries.
(xv) To erect buildings on and effect improvements
to any property forming oart of the Trust Fund
and also to conduct farming operations on and
lease all or any part of such -property.
(xvi) To institute and defend proceedings at Law and
to oroceed to the final end and determination
thereof or compromise the same as the Trustee
shall consider advisable.
(xvii) To incorporate any company or companies in any
place in the world at the' expense of the Trust
Fund with limited or unlimited liability for the
purpose of (inter alia) acquiring the whole or
any part of the Trust Fund the consideration on
the sale of the Trust Fund or any part thereof
to any company incorporated pursuant to this sub-
clause may consist wholly or partly or fully paid
debentures or debenture stock or other securities
of the company and may be credited as fully oaid
and may be allotted to or otherwise vested in -
the Trustee and shall, be capital moneys in the
Trustee's hands.
(xviii)To exercise or concur in exercising the voting
and other.rights.attaching to any securities for
the time beint forming part of the Trust Fund
so as to become a director or other officer or
employee of any company and to ba entitled to .
vote and to be Daid anei to retain for the Trustee's
use and benefit reasonable remuneration for the
Trustee's services.
(xix) To borrow money whether on security of the Trust Func
or otherwise at any time and from time to time and
pay or apply the money so raised in any manner in
which money forming part of the capital of the Trust
Fund may be paid or applied, and to execute and delix
such security documentation for said loans as may
from time to time be required.
(xx) To deposit the securities title deeds and other
documents belonging or relating to this Trust for
safe custody with any bank.
(xxi) To hold any part of the Trust Fund in the name or
the names of any nominee of the Trustee.

770276

T
 (xxii) In Che event that income or capital shall become
distributable to a minor beneficiary or to a
' beneficiary under.other legal disability or
to a beneficiary not adjudicated incompetent
by reason or illness or" mental, or physical
disability is in the opinion of the Trustee unable
properly to administer such amounts then such
amounts may be•paid out by the Trustee in such
one or more of the following ways that the Trustee
shall deem best (i) directly to the said beneficiary
(ii) to the legally appointed guardian or committee
of stich beneficiary (iii) to a oarent or some
relative or friend for the care and support and
education of such beneficiary or (iv) by the Trustee
using such amounts directly for- the benefit of
such.beneficiary and as regards (ii) and (iii)
without having to see to the application thereof
and the receipt of any such distributee shall
constitute a full release and discharge of the j
Trustee. j
(xxiii)In the event of any Income nrobate estate or other j
duties fees or taxes becoming payable in the Cayman 1
Islands or elsewhere in respect of the Trust Fund
. or any part thereof on the death of any Beneficiary ,
or othexvise- at its discretion to pay all or any [
part of such duties fees - and taxes out of the
Trust Fund without recourse against any beneficiarv
or to refuse to pay the same, or any part thereof >
unless indemnified and to determine the time and
manner of such payment (if any).
10. Notwithstanding any of the trusts powers and provisions
herein contained the Trustee shall have power at any time
or times before the Perpetuity Sate at the absolute discretion
of the Trustee by any .irrevocable deed or deeds and without
infringing the rule against perpetuities to apppoint that
the whole or any part of the Trust Fund shall thenceforth
be held upon the trusts and with end subject to the powers
and provisions of any other trust (including this present
proviso) not infringing the rule against perpetuities applicable ,
to this trust and approved by the Trustee and in favour or
for the benefit of all or anv one or more exclusivelv of the
others or other of the Beneficiaries and upon any such appoint-
ment being made the Trustee may transfer to the trustee or
trustees for the time being of the said other trust the propertv
comprised in the said appointment and thereupon the trusts
herein declared concerning such property shall cease and
determine and the said property shall for all purposes be
subject to the trusts powers and provisions contained in the
said other trust and be subject to and be governed by the
proper law of the said other trust whether such proper law
shall be the proper law of this trust or not.
11. Notwithstanding any of the trust powers and provisions
herein contained the Trustee shall have power at any titae

770277
 or times before the Perpetuity Date and without infringing
the rule against perpetuities at the absolute discretion of
the Trustee by any irrevocable deed or deeds to retire as
Trustee and to appoint a new trustee or new trustees outside
the Cayman Islands as Trustee hereof and to declare that the
trusts hereof shall be read and take effect according to the
laws of the country of the residence of incorporation of such
new trustee or trustees and upon such appointment being made
the Trustee shall immediately stand possessed of the trust
fund upon trust for the new trustee or trustees and shall
transfer the same to the new trustee or trustees as soon as
possible so that the Trust Fund shall continue to be held
uoon the trust hereof but subject to and governed by the law
of the country of residence or incorporation of such new trustee
or trustees and thereafter the rights of all persons end the
construction and effect of each and every provision hereof
shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of and construed
only according ta the law of the said country which shall
become the forum for the administration of this trust (but
so that nonetheless the. Trustee or the new trustee or trustees
may by deed declare that the trusts hereof shall continue
to be' read and take effect according to the laws of the said
Cayman Islands as orovided by Clause 20 hereof) AND Clauses
17*and 20 hereof shall take effect and be subject to the trusts
hereinbefore declared by this Clause AND any such new trustee
or trustees may by deed make such amendments hereto as are
necessary to ensure that the trusts hereof are effective and
legal in such new jurisdiction.
12. The Trustee shall keep accurate accounts of its trusteeshio
and may have them audited annually at the expense of the Trust
Fund or th.e income thereof as . the Trustee shall determine
by a firm of accountants selected by the Trustee.
13. The customary expenses in connection with the adminis-
tration of this trust including the remuneration and charge
of the Trustee hereinafter provided for and of the investment
and reinvestment of any part of the Trust Fund and the collectior
of income and other sums derivable therefrom shall be charged
against the income of the Trust Fund but if such Income is
insufficient for that purpose then the same shall be charged
against capital or so much of the capital as may be required
in addition to the income for that purpose.
14. The Trustee may appropriate any part of the Trust Fund
in the actual state or condition of investment thereof at
the time of appropriation in or towards satisfaction of the
share of any person in the Trust Fund as to the Trustee may
seem just ana reasonable according to the respective rights
of the persons interested in the Trust Fund.

15. (1) Any T r u s t e e b e i n g a t r u s t company o r c o r p o r a t i o n

s h a l l be e n t i t l e d t o c h a r g e a n d b e p a i d o u t o f
t'.ia T r u s t Fund a n d t h e i n c o m e t h e r e o f r e m u n e r a t i o n
i n a c c o r d a n c e w i s h i t s s c a l e o f f e e s now and f r o m

77027S
n

time to time in force and may without accounting

• for ar.y resultant profit act as banker and perform
any service on behalf of the Trust estate and
on the same terms as would be made with a customer.
(ii) Any Trustee being a lawyer chartered accountant
or other person engaged in any profession or busines
shall be entitled to charge and be paid all usual
professional and other charges for business
transacted time spent and acts done by him or
any partner of his in connection with the. trusts
hereof included acts which a trustee not being
in any profession or business could have done
. personally.
16. The Trustee shall not be reauired to give bond or security
for the due and faithful administration of the Trust Fund
or for the discharge of the.trusts hereby created.
I 17. (i) The power of appointing a new trustee or new trustee
hereof shall be vested in the Trustee or the persona
representatives or the liquidator of the last
surviving Trustee ..-and suck power shall extend
• to the appointment of a new trustee or new trustees
in the place of any Trustee resigning its
trusteeship and also to the appointment of an
additional - trustee or . additional trustees up
Co any number subject to such limit (if any) as
may for the time being be imposed by law.
(ii) Any Trustee may at any time resign the trusteeshio
on giving not less than fourteen days notice
addressed to the other trustees (if any) or if
there are' no other trustees on appointing a new.
trustee or new trustees In the place of the retiring
- Trustee and any such notice of resignation shall
be deemed to operate so as to vest all of the
property forming the Trust Fund in the continuing
trustee or trustees.
(iii) .The office of a Trustee shall be Ipso facto
determined and vacated if such Trustee being e.n
individual shall be found to be a lunatic or of
unsound mind or if .he shall become subject to
the bankruptcy laws or if such Trustee being a
company shall enter into liquidation whether
compulsory or voluntary (not being merely a voluntary
liquidation for the purposes of amalgamation or
reconstruction).
Notices of all changes in the.trusteeship shall
be indorsed on or attached to these presents signed
by the surviving or continuing Trustee and evarv
such notice shall be sufficient evidence to any
person having dealings with this Trust as to the
facts to which it relates.
770279
 (v) Any person dealing with this trust may rely uoon
a copy of these presents and of the notices endorsed
thereon or attached thereto certified by the Trustee
or the Trustee's lawyer before a Notary Public
to the same extent as he might'.rely on the original.
Cvi) Unless there shall be a single trustee the Trustee
shall act only by a unanimous vote but in the
event of a disagreement ths Trustee shall be bound
. to take and abide by the opinion of Counsel.
18. (i) Every discretion or power hereby or by law conferred
on ths Trustee shall be an absolute and uncontrolled
discretion or power and no Trustee shall be held
liable for any loss or damage accruing as a result
of the Trustee' concurring or refusing or failing
to concur in an exercise of any such discretion
or power.
(ii) No Trustee shall be liable for any error of judgment
or mistake of law or other mistake or for anything
save the wilful misconduct or wilful breach of
this Trust by such Trustee and each Trustee shall
be held harmless against any claims losses death
duties taxes and impositions arising in connection
with the Trust Fund or any part thereof.
19. Every Trustee who is a corporation or company may exercise
or concur In exercising any discretion or power hereby conferred
on the Trustee by a resolution of such corporation or company
or by a resolution of its Board of Directors or governing
body or may delegate the right and power to exercise or concur
in exercising any such discretion or power to any one .or more
o.t its directors, officers or employees.
20. This Trust is established under the laws of the Cayman
Islands and if and so long as the' power contained in Clause
11 hereof shall not have been exercised the rights of all
parties and the construction and effect of each and every
provision hereof shall be construed only according to the
law of the said Cayman Islands which shall be the forum for
the administration of this trust.
21. The Trust hereby crested shall take effect immediately f
on the execution hersof and be irrevocable. !
22. No Beneficiary of this Trust shall have any right to j
aLienate, encumber or hypothecate his interest therein, nor
shall such intersts of any Beneficiary be subject to claims
of h i s c r e d i t o r s , o r l i a b l e t o a t t a c h m e n t , e x e c u t i o n , o r o c h e r
process of law. The i n c o m e o f t h i s T r u s t s h a l l n o t be p l e d g e d , i
" a s s i g n e d , t r a n s f e r r e d , s o l d , o r i n any manner w h a t s o e v e r j
a c c e l e r a t e d , a n t i c i p a t e d , o r e n c u m b e r e by any B e n e f i c i a r y , j
n o r s h a l l any i n c o n a o f t h i s T r u s t b e i n any manner s u b j e c t •
or l i a b l e i n ' t h e hands o f t h e T r u s t e e f o r t h e d e b t s , c o n t r a c t s , j
or encroachments of any Beneficiary or be subject to any
assignment or any other voluntary or involuntary alienation or
disposition whatsoever prior to the distribution of all or part
of the said income to that Beneficiary.
23. The Trustees shall have the power to lend, with or without
security, and upon such terms and conditions as the Trustees may
determine, to any of the Beneficiaries named in The First Schedule
attached hereto.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF this Deed has been duly executed the day and
year first before written. ^

The Common Seal of GUINNESS >

MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
was hereunto affixed
by T o h m " ft. S o u i i J S

and by "XoHN ft- Futfxe

by order of the Board of
Directors in the presence
of:

Witness

770281
 THE FIRST SCHEDULE

SPARTACUS HOLDINGS LIMITED

ECLIPSE HOLDINGS LIMITED

YALE SECURITIES LIMITED

MEDFORD INVESTMENTS LIMITED

OVERSEAS NOMINEES LIMITED

all being companies registered under the laws of the

Cayman Islands and having their Registered Office at
P. O. Box 887/ Grand Cayman, B.W.I.

THE SECOND SCHEDULE

The Cayman Islands Branch of the British Red Cross

Association.

770282
 J icci^ca frtk&M 6 its: Hc£w£j

iSfttotlY and Confidential

3. TT.S. Property venture:

In 1980 a Mr Jim Cummins, an Irish American who lived part of the year in Co Cork and who
was well known to twofiiendsof mine, Neil Collins and Frank B aland, approached them about
a possible property investment in Arizona. This was being promoted by a real estate colleague
of Mr Cummins, Mr Keith Smith. There was a third American involved as well, Mr Harry
Bidwell.

^ The initial property investment relatedto the development near Phoenix, Arizona of a 90 acre
v ' residential trailer park (mobile homes) and associated amenities. These type of developments
in a 'sun belt' location like Phoenix were particularly attractive at that time to seasonal retired
residentsfrom the colder Northern States.

'/!: L . The 3 American investors were advised, for U.S. tax planning purposes, to seek out 50% non
U.S. partners andto operatefrom an acceptable and established off-shore location. .

I was asked by either N. Collins or F. Boland if I would be interested in looking at the merits of
the proposal. They asked a few other businessfriendsas well. The group comprised, in
addition to Neil Collins and Frank Boland, Mr Clayton Love Jnr., Mr Pat Dineen and myself.

At that time NeQ Collins had extensive business interests in the U.S. and had established a close
banking relationship with AIB in New York. Accordingly, he approached them about putting
up the bulk of the funds for this property investment A detailed assessment of the project was
undertaken for A.I.B. and for the proposed Irish participants by the New York office of property
consultants, Jones Lang Wootton. They visited the site in Arizona and reported positively on
the development and profit projections ($ 10m). Guinness and Mahon who were well known
to most of the Irish group were also contacted. Mr Desmond Traynor of that bank advised
about the kind of structure required to meet the demands of the project

' The structure envisaged the establishment of an entity known

as the Lynbrett Trust. - Guinness
Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd. was the trusteeforthe Lynbrett Trust The beneficiaries of Lynbrett
Trust were to befiveregistered Cayman Islands companies. I would be givien an option to
acquire one of these companies, Eclipse Holdings Ltd., on terms which I shall outline later.
Under the arrangements negotiated with AIB New York, AIB would lend 52.775m to Lynbrett
who in turn would lend it on to Mr Keith Smith's company, Roadhaven Resorts Inc. This was
an Arizona corporation responsible for carrying out the developments. Legal and tax advice was
obtained to confirm that the proposed structure was in conformity with U.S. tax law.

Personal, joint and several guarantees were required by AIB from thefiveIrish participants. I
signed the guarantee at AIB, 66 South Mall, Cork on the 23rd of June 1981.

sa
Lynbrett was to participate in 50% of the profitsfrom the developments (after the repayment of
loans). The U.S. investors were entitled to the other 50%. It was envisaged that the group
would involve itself in other similar property opportunities and a second project, Bullhead City,
was under active consideration.

In addition to the A.I.B. borrowing of $2.775m the Lynbrett Trust was also required to put up
$950 000 in the initial development My share of that amounted to $212 500 (22%).I negotiated
a venture capital type arrangement with Desmond Traynor acting for Guinness Mahon Cayman
Trust Ltd. That arrangement involved G. M. Cayman Trust providing a loan facility of up to
$500000 to Eclipse Holdings Ltd. for the purpose of investing in the Lynbrett Trust

Eclipse Holdings was entitled to it's share (approx. 22%) of Lynbrett's profits. Eclipse was
owned by G. M. Cayman Trust and it had to repay G. M. C. T. the amount loaned together with
40% of Eclipse's share of Lynbrett's profits. This 40% profit share was in lieu of interest In
exchangeformy personally guaranteeing £50 000 sterling of Eclipse's borrowings I was given
an option to acquire all of the shares in Eclipse at par (£50) as soon as the amount loaned to
•Eclipse had been repaid together with the 40% profit share. This structure made good
commercial sense for me in that it limited my financialexposure while entitling me to 60% of
Eclipse's profits. Unfortunately events conspired to ensure that I never acquired Eclipse
Holdings.

Despite the attractive projections and extensive due diligence carried out by AIB and ourselves
the enterprise ultimately turned out to be an unmitigated disaster and an absolute nightmare for
tiie other Irish participants and myself Roadhaven filedfor bankruptcy in 1985; the securities
put in place against our borrowings from AIB by AIB's lawyers proved to be defective and
practically worthless and we were leftfightinga number of actions to try to minimise our losses.
AIB New York called on the guarantors, by letter dated February 18th 1986, to pay, within 30
days, the sum of $2 527 730. A protracted and publicised dispute followed between AIB, their
lawyers and ourselves which was ultimately settled out of court late in 1993. That settlement
involved each of thefiveof us in net payments of practically $400 000 (spread over six
instalments). To add to our misery one of the five, Neil Collins was unable to meet his
commitments under the terms of the guarantee and the other four have had to pay his share as
well which brings the overall cost for each of the four up to practically $500 000. ($2.4m to
AIB less $425000from lawyers.)

G. M. Cayman Trust called on my £50000 sterling guarantee by letter dated August 14th 1987
and I paid it, in Irish Pounds, in October 1987. To do so I had to sell 50000 shares in Aran
Energy. I endorsed the IR£ cheque from Stockbrokers Goodbody James Capel and sent it to
Desmond Traynor with a covering letter, both for transmission to G. M. Cayman Trust Receipt
was acknowledged by letterfrom G. M. C. T. dated October 29th 1987.
Appendix XV (22) Mr George Crampton
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
George Crampton.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr George Crampton dated 8 February 2000.

b) Statement of Mr George Crampton of 3 February 2000.

c) Profit & Loss a/c for year ended 31 December 1974 - Starling Securities
Limited.

d) Balance sheet as at 31 December 1974 - Whitethorn No 6 Trust.

e) Starling Securities Limited call deposit a/c with GMCT - June 1973.

f) Letter of 6 January 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr George Crampton.

g) Letter of 8 March 1972 - Kennedy Crowley & Company to Mr George
Crampton.

h) Letter of 10 March 1978 - Mr George Crampton to GMCT.

i) Letter of 13 March 1978 - GMCT to Mr George Crampton.

j) Undated handwritten note by Mr George Crampton entitled Cork

Investments USA.

k) Facsimile of 10 October 1994 - Ansbacher Cayman Limited to IIB.

1) Profit & Loss a/c to 30 September 1985 - Starling Securities Limited,

m) Balance sheet as at 30 September 1996 - Starling Securities Limited.

Appendix XV (22) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. GEORGE CRAMPTON

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 8TH FEBRUARY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. GEORGE CRAMPTON

Instructed by: JERRY SHEEHAN

SHEEHAN & CO

I CLARE STREET

DUBLIN 2
 INDEX

WITNESS EXAMINATION QUESTIONS

MR. G. CRAMPTON MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 1 - 281

MS. MACKEY 282 - 307

MR. ROWAN 308 - 338

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 339 - 358

So

Vvc-ck ^oc
 1 THE HEARING COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY, 8TH

2 FEBRUARY 2 000

4 MR. GEORGE CRAMPTON, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED

5 AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

7 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Crampton, I will ask

8 you some questions and

9 then my colleagues will ask you some questions. We

10 propose to have a break at 11.00 for a cup of

11 coffee.

12 A. Fine, yes.

13 2 Q. Mr. Crampton, just for the record, would you just

14 tell us what your position was in G&T Crampton

15 Limited in 1948?

16 A. I was a Director.

17 3 Q. You were a Director?

18 A. Yes.

19 4 Q. Did you continue then as a Director and are you

20 still a Director of the company, or have you

21 retired?

22 A. I continued as a Director and then I became a Joint

23 Managing Director and then Managing Director. I am

24 a Chairman at the moment.

25 5 Q. You were closely connected with the company for many

26 years?

27 A. Yes.

28 6 Q. It was and is a very substantial construction

29 company?

4
 2 7 Q. You had a business relationship with Guinness &

3 Mahon; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 8 Q. What was that?

6 A. The joint venture in Crampton Housing.

7 9 Q. Was this a company constructing houses?

8 A. Correct, yes.

9 10 Q. What sort of turnover did it have?

10 A. That now, I couldn't ...(INTERJECTION).

11 11 Q. Was it substantial?

12 A. It was substantial, yes. It was at the time of a

13 recession.

14 12 Q. You became acquainted during that time with

15 Mr. Traynor; is that is correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 13 Q. Was this a fairly close relationship that you

18 developed with Mr. Traynor?

19 A. Not that close with Mr. Traynor, it was more the

20 Crampton Housing relationship with Maurice 0'Kelly.

21 14 Q. Maurice 0'Kelly, who was a Managing Director, I

22 think?

23 A. Correct, that was it, yes.

24 15 Q. You obtained advice then, according to the statement

25 that you prepared for us, from Mr. Don Reid of

26 Kennedy Crowley ...(INTERJECTION).

27 A. Correct.

28 16 Q. ... on the tax aspects of certain proposals?

29 A. Yes.

5
 1 17 Q. Was Mr. Reid your personal accountant?

2 A. No.

3 18 Q. Who was your personal accountant?

4 A. Craig Gardner.

5 19 Q. They have been since your personal accountants?

6 A. Yes.

7 20 Q. Who suggested that you would contact Mr. Reid?

8 A. That was done in 1974 through Mr. John Lowe.

9 21 Q. Of Charter House?

10 A. By Charter House, correct. He had got the advice

11 from Don Reid.

12 22 Q. What is Charter House, Mr. Crampton?

13 A. Charter House is a company of Trinity Bank.

14 23 Q. It is a branch, is it, of a bank?

15 A. I am not too sure about that now.

16 24 Q. What was your connection with Charter House?

17 A. We did two developments with them; one for the Court

18 Laundry site and the other with the site in

19 Donnybrook.

20 25 Q. The Charter House, you say you did development with

21 them ...(INTERJECTION).

22 A. Joint venture.

23 26 Q. Were they financing the venture?

24 A. Yes.

25 27 Q. They were?

26 A. Yes. We were building.

27 28 Q. You were building?

28 A. Yes.

29 29 Q. Mr. Lowe then gave you some advice and it was as a

6
 1 result of his introduction that you met Mr. Don

2 Reid?

3 A. Correct.

4 30 Q. Now, Mr. Crampton, before we go any further I would

5 just like you to formally identify the documents

6 that you have handed in to us. I want these to be

7 part of the record. You prepared a statement for

8 us?

9 A. Correct.

10 31 Q. If you could just identify that statement -- we will

11 call that Exhibit 1?

12 A. Yes.

13 32 Q. Your solicitor forwarded to us two file documents;

14 one was a document re Starling Securities Limited,

15 and related correspondence, Exhibit 2, and the other

16 is documents re loan file, Exhibit 3?

17 A. Yes.

18 33 Q. We would like you to identify those formally and

19 they will be part of the exhibits of your evidence?

20 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

21 34 Q. Thirdly, your solicitor, Mr. Sheehan, sent us by

22 letter of 7th February a further bundle of

23 documents, and a schedule containing 13 documents,

24 Exhibit 4, and I think this morning we got a further

25 letter from Mr. Sheehan, a copy letter, which was

26 sent by Mr. Collery to Starling Securities, and we

27 can add that to the file so that we won't have too

28 many exhibits, Exhibit 5.

29 A. Yes.

7
 1 35 Q. Now, if you would like to just take your statement,

2 Exhibit 1, I would like to go through your

3 statement, Mr. Crampton, with you and just ask you

4 to expand on certain points?

5 A. Yes.

6 36 Q. Halfway down the page, you begin by saying:

7 "Don Reid of Kennedy Crowley

Accountants advised on the tax aspects
8 of the proposals."

10 A. Correct, yes.

11 37 Q. It appears in the documents you have given us that

12 you got advice on the tax aspects of the development

13 of the site?

14 A. Yes.

15 38 Q. Mr. Lowe gave some advice, and did Mr. Reid give

16 advice also?

17 A. Correct.

18 39 Q. Part of that advice was the establishment of

19 companies in the Cayman Islands?

20 A. Yes.

21 40 Q. That was done, I think?

22 A. That is right.

23 41 Q. Also, part of that advice was the establishment of a

24 Trust, a Discretionary Trust?

25 A. Right.

26 42 Q. That was part of the advice that related to the

27 development of the Court Laundry; is that right, Mr.

28 Crampton?

29 A. The Court Laundry site.

8
 1 43 Q. The Court Laundry site.

2 A. Yes .

3 44 Q. Now, you also got advice from Mr. Don Reid, which

4 was separate advice, about the establishment of a

5 Trust which would take the money which would be

6 administered by "Ansbacher", the company that is now

7 known as "Ansbacher" -- remember, this was a

8 separate advice?

9 A. That is correct.

10 45 Q. What I want to know is, was the Trust which was

11 created as a result of the advice given by Mr. Lowe

12 a separate Trust to the Whitethorne No. 6 Trust,

13 with which we are concerned today?

14 A. No, I think that was ...(INTERJECTION).

15 46 Q. It was the same Trust?

16 A. It was the same Trust, yes. There was only one

17 Trust.

18 47 Q. There was only one Trust?

19 A. Yes .

20 48 Q. You say that the Trust was set up on 29th March --

21 if you just look at your statement there?

22 A. Yes, that is right.

23 49 Q.
"The Trust was set up on 29th March
24 1972 and funds appear to have been
passed to it from two companies;
25 namely, Winchester Investments Ltd. and
Corowna Ltd."
26

27 Were these the two companies that were established

28 in relation to the proposed scheme that Mr. Lowe had

29 proposed for Charter House?

 1 A. I am not so sure of that. I think that the

2 correspondence was delivered ...(INTERJECTION).

3 50 Q. Yes, you can take it that they are, I think?

4 A. I think they are, yes.

5 51 Q. Now, who advised you about the establishment of this

6 Trust that was to be administered by "Ansbacher"?

7 Who advised you about it?

8 A. It was more, I think, Don Reid.

9 52 Q. What about Mr. Traynor?

10 A. Mr. Traynor came into the scene a bit later than

11 that and administered the arrangement.

12 53 Q. He administered the arrangement?

13 A. Yes. I think that statement I made here in

14 paragraph 4 is not quite correct -- Mr. Traynor

15 "suggested that the proceeds referred to above be

16 placed in an off-shore ... " That suggestion was

17 from, I think, Don Reid more than Des Traynor.

18 54 Q. More than Mr. Traynor?

19 A. Yes, I think so.

20 55 Q. Anyway, whoever advised about the setting up of

21 these off-shore Trusts, Mr. Traynor came into the

22 picture, did he not?

23 A. He did, yes.

24 56 Q. Tell us what he said to you?

25 A. I cannot remember, he was in the background. I

26 didn't meet Mr. Traynor at that particular stage.

27 57 Q. Had you not met him in your joint venture with

28 Guinness & Mahon?

29 A. I had met him, yes, but I don't think he was

10
 1 involved at this particular stage.

2 58 Q. When he became involved, what did he tell you?

3 A. I cannot recall the conversation I had with him at

4 that stage.

5 59 Q. I want you to tell us what you remember about what

6 you were told the arrangement was going to be?

7 A. Let me think about that.

8 60 Q. Do you see the last paragraph on that first page,

9 Exhibit 1?

10 A. Yes.

11 61 Q.
"My understanding is that the Trust
12 lent the monies to a company called
Starling ... "
13

14 Who told you that?

15 A. I am not too sure, I want to be careful. It was

16 either Don Reid or Mr. Traynor. It had to be.

17 62 Q. You are not too sure?

18 A. No, I am not.

19 63 Q. You were told that:

20 "The company in turn held an account in

Guinness & Mahon ..."
21

22 Do you remember that?

23 A. Yes, I thought the money was held by Guinness &

24 Mahon.

25 64 Q. It was going to be held by Guinness & Mahon?

26 A. Yes.

27 65 Q. In Dublin?

28 A. In Dublin. No, wait now. I understood that the

29 money would be in the Cayman Islands.

11
 1 66 Q. You say that originally you understood the money

2 would be in the Cayman Islands?

3 A. Correct, yes. That was the Cayman Trust, yes.

4 67 Q. You say, Exhibit 1:

5 "I became aware of this fact in the

late 1980's ."
6

7 A. That is right, that it was held in Dublin.

8 68 Q. In Dublin?

9 A. Correct, yes. I always understood that the money

10 would be transferred to the Cayman Islands. In

11 other words, I didn't understand very clearly what

12 was happening with that account. I left it t the

13 experts.

14 69 Q. We will look at it in greater detail in a moment.

15 A. Right.

16 70 Q.
"The monies referred to above were the
17 only investment made by me into the
Trust." Exhibit 1.
18

19 You didn't transfer anything further into the Trust?

20 A. No.

21 71 Q. Now, if we turn the page, you say:

22 "Whitethorne No. 6 Trust is a

Discretionary Trust ... "
23

24 Have you got a copy of the Trust Deed?

25 A. I don't have a copy of the Trust Deed, no. I think

26 it was held by Guinness & Mahon, I think.

27 72 Q. We know that your solicitor wrote for a copy of the

28 Trust Deed. I wonder, did he get it, do you know?

29 A. I don't know, I don't think so.

12
 1 73 Q. You haven't got it?

2 A. No, I haven't got it.

3 74 Q. I take it you have no objection to writing them for

4 the Trust Deed. We would require to see the Trust

5 Deed, Mr. Crampton.

6 A. I have no objection to that, no.

7 75 Q. We will require all the documentation in relation to

8 the establishment of the Trust.

9 A. Yes .

10 76 Q. Why I am slightly surprised is that the documents

11 you sent us show a letter from your solicitor asking

12 for these documents and they do not seem to have

13 given them.

14 A. That is right. We have asked for that and it has

15 not been given.

16 77 Q. Were you told that you were not going to be the

17 Settlor of the Trust, though in fact you were

18 settling the money on the Trust? Were you told that

19 somebody else was going to be the Settlor?

20 A. Yes, there were somebody ...(INTERJECTION).

21 78 Q. What were told about that?

22 A. Well, I was told it was a Trust, that there would be

23 a Settlor.

24 79 Q. Were you told why you would not be the Settlor?

25 A. No, I wasn't told why.

26 80 Q. Did it not occur to you a bit strange that you were

27 settling money in this Trust, it was going to be a

28 Discretionary Trust and you were not to be the

29 Settlor named in it?

 1 A. Yes, I queried that, I think, at the time and they

2 said, no, this is the way it is done, the way it

3 should be done.

4 81 Q. You queried it and they said that is the way it

5 ...(INTERJECTION).

6 A. It should be done, yes.

7 82 Q. Did they tell you why it was to be done that way?

8 A. No, I didn't ask why.

9 83 Q. You didn't ask?

10 A. No.

11 84 Q. You see, you say:

12 "I signed the Trust Document at the

time but I do not have a copy of it
13 ..." Exhibit 1.

14

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 85 Q. But I wonder is it correct, if it was a Trust and

17 the Settlor was Mr. Harris?

18 A. Correct, yes.

19 86 Q. Can this be correct?

20 A. I beg your pardon?

21 87 Q. Can it be correct that you signed a Trust Document

22 when you were not the Settlor?

23 A. I cannot recall that.

24 88 Q. Then you cannot recall the Letter of Wishes as to

25 how the Trustees were to dispose of the Trust?

26 A. I think that was in the Trust, the people who would

27 benefit from the Trust. That is in the Trust.

28 89 Q. You cannot recall if you signed a Letter of Wishes?

29 A. No, I cannot recall signing a Letter of Wishes. I

14
 1 was asked to sign a Letter of Wishes, but I cannot

2 recall doing that.

3 90 Q. Now, Mr. Crampton, would you mind looking at the

4 file documents re Starling Securities Limited and

5 related correspondence (SAME HANDED TO

6 MR. CRAMPTON).

7 A. Thank you.

8 91 Q. Would you just look at the first document, "Starling

9 Securities Limited", and it gives the address,

10 "Balance Sheet as at 31st December 1974". Have you

11 got that, Exhibit 2?

12 A. Yes .

13 92 Q. Do you see the assets of Starling Securities were

14 described as a number of shares in a company called

15 "State Securities", and then "A/0 Fixed Deposit" and

16 "A/0-1 Fixed Deposit". Do you see that?

17 A. Yes .

18 93 Q. This document would have been given to you by

19 Mr. Traynor, was it?

20 A. Correct, yes.

21 94 Q. Did he tell you what "A/0 Fixed Deposit" was?

22 A. No.

23 95 Q. Did you ask him?

24 A. I did not ask, no.

25 96 Q. Why didn't you ask him? Isn't it very strange it

26 does not indicate where the deposit is? It does not

27 indicate why it would have the code.

28 A. No, I left that to Mr. Traynor.

29 97 Q. So, you did not ask?

 1 A. I cannot remember asking, no.

2 98 Q. You cannot remember asking?

3 A. I don't, no. I didn't ask, I just accepted the

4 figures he gave me.

5 99 Q. It is not the figures, it is where the deposit was.

6 A. No, I didn't ask, no.

7 100 Q. You thought it strange, did you not?

8 A. I assumed it was in the Cayman Islands.

9 101 Q. Why would it be in a coded letter like that?

10 A. I don't know.

11 102 Q. And you didn't ask?

12 A. I never asked, no.

13 103 Q. These documents that you produced for us yesterday,

14 I would like you to look at the document, it is

15 towards the end. I think it is document No. 11, a

16 statement re the Whitethorne No. 6 Trust, Exhibit 3.

17 It is this document here (INDICATING). That is a

18 document which you had in your possession. It is

19 1972 to 1973. It is an old note document, you had

20 it at home, did you, Mr. Crampton?

21 A. I did?

22 104 Q. That document (INDICATING) Exhibit 4.

23 A. I found that on Friday of last week.

24 105 Q. Just look at it.

25 A. Yes.

26 106 Q. It says "Starling Securities Limited Core Deposit,

27 Guinness & Mahon Trust Limited".

28 A. Yes.

29 107 Q. Isn't that quite clearly showing what the money was

16
 1 which was obtained by Starling Securities and it is

2 in an account with Guinness & Mahon?

3 A. Correct.

4 108 Q. You see the note there underneath, "Interest rate

5 based on Dublin Money Market Rates and applied at

6 quarterly intervals". Did you ask any questions as

7 to why the Dublin Money Market Rate was being used

8 for your interest?

9 A. No, I did not query that.

10 109 Q. You did not query that?

11 A. I do not remember querying that, no.

12 110 Q. Well, then, if we just come back to your statement,

13 Exhibit 1, on the bottom of the first page:

14 "The Company in turn held an account in

Guinness & Mahon Bank in Dublin, and I
15 understand that these monies together
with other monies were deposited in
16 Dublin. I became aware of this fact in
the late 1980's."
17

18 So, your recollection is that you knew nothing about

19 the money being in Dublin until the late 1980's?

20 A. That is right, I thought the money was in the Cayman

21 Islands.

22 111 Q. What were you told in the late 1980's?

23 A. Well, I realised then that some of the money was

24 held in Dublin.

25 112 Q. Why?

26 A. I cannot remember.

27 113 Q. What caused you to realise that the monies were held

28 in Dublin?

29 A. I think it was a conversation I had with

 1 Des Traynor.

2 114 Q. What did he tell you?

3 A. He indicated at that stage that the money was in

4 Dublin, not in the Cayman Islands.

5 115 Q. Did he tell you that it was in a coded account?

6 A. No. I didn't know anything about a coded account at

7 that stage.

8 116 Q. Even though you got regular statements showing the

9 code?

10 A. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know that

11 was a code.

12 117 Q. Did you not?

13 A. No, I didn't know.

14 118 Q. You never asked any questions about it?

15 A. I didn't ask any questions about it. I accepted

16 what he was doing being correct.

17 119 Q. What did he tell you in the late 1980's?

18 A. In, 1989 I approached him and I asked him a

19 question, would I have problems with this account,

20 because I said 'you see, I was in my 65th year'

21 ...(INTERJECTION).

22 120 Q. That what?

23 A. I was in my 65th year, and if there was any problem

24 ...(INTERJECTION).

25 121 Q. What sort of problems could there have been, did you

26 know?

27 A. I was asking him were there any problems.

28 122 Q. What sort of problems could there have been?

29 A. I think the problems could have been if the matter

18
 1 wasn't being done legally correct.

2 123 Q. You mean tax problems?

3 A. Tax problems, yes.

4 124 Q. That is what you were concerned about?

5 A. That is what I was concerned about.

6 125 Q. What did he tell you?

7 A. He said everything was in order. I asked him on

8 that occasion, that was in 1989, should the matter

9 be regulated and tax paid, and at that stage he said

10 "no".

11 126 Q. Why did you raise this with him?

12 A. Because I was a bit worried that there could be a

13 problem.

14 127 Q. Had you discussed this with your own accountant?

15 A. No, no.

16 128 Q. Did your own accountant know of this arrangement?

17 A. No.

18 129 Q. He did not?

19 A. No.

20 130 Q. I can take it that there was no question of having

21 paid any tax on any of this money?

22 A. That's right, yes.

23 131 Q. You started to get worried?

24 A. I was worried at that stage, yes.

25 132 Q. What caused you to be worried, Mr. Crampton?

26 A. I felt, looking back, that tax should have been

27 paid.

28 133 Q. You felt it?

29 A. I did, yes.

19
 1 134 Q. Did you say that to Mr. Traynor?

2 A. I did, yes. I said say should we declare this and

3 pay tax and he said "no", at that stage. That was

4 in 1989. Subsequent to that, during the amnesty, I

5 approached him again and ...(INTERJECTION).

6 135 Q. What did he say?

7 A. He said the same, that there was no need to.

8 136 Q. No need to do it?

9 A. Yes.

10 137 Q. Why were you worried?

11 A. At that stage, the man was not well.

12 138 Q. Mr. Traynor?

13 A. He was ...(INTERJECTION).

14 139 Q. You did not consider it prudent to have a word with

15 your own accountant about this?

16 A. No, because I trusted Mr. Traynor, being the expert

17 that he was.

18 140 Q. What caused you to think that tax should have been

19 paid on it?

20 A. Well, I felt at the stage that it was not quite

21 right.

22 141 Q. Why?

23 A. Because I thought the tax should have been paid.

24 142 Q. But why was it not quite right, in your view?

25 A. Because I think that there was interest being

26 accumulated there and the tax was not being paid.

27 143 Q. Where was the interest being accumulated?

28 A. In the Cayman.

29 144 Q. You thought?

20
 1 A. Yes .

2 145 Q. He told you it was being accumulated in Dublin?

3 A. No, I said there was some money in Dublin.

4 146 Q. There was money in Dublin?

5 A. Yes. I thought the money was being accumulated in

6 the Cayman.

7 147 Q. You thought that being accumulated in the Cayman you

8 should pay tax on it?

9 A. No matter where it was being accumulated, I thought

10 tax should be paid at that stage. That was in the

11 1980's.

12 148 Q. Now, if we just turn over the page, Mr. Crampton,

13 you say in the third paragraph, Exhibit 1

14 "In the early years the monies earned

deposit interest and this was reflected
15 in the accounts of Starling Securities
Ltd. "
16

17 I am just slightly curious about the phrase "in the

18 early years". It earned deposit interest the whole

19 time, did it not?

20 A. Yes, it did, yes.

21 149 Q. The whole time it earned deposit interest?

22 A. Yes .

23 150 Q. You say "this was reflected in the accounts of

24 Starling Securities Ltd." You have produced these

25 accounts for us and these clearly show the interest

26 being accumulated. Where did you get these

27 accounts? How did you get these accounts?

28 A. They were posted by Mr. Traynor.

29 151 Q. Mr. Traynor?

 2 152 Q. From Dublin?

3 A. From Dublin.

4 153 Q. Did you notice that the accounts were all in Irish

5 pounds?

6 A. Well, I thought they were in Sterling, to be quite

7 honest with you.

8 154 Q. Sterling?

9 A. I thought they were in Sterling, yes.

10 155 Q. I see. Well, maybe I am wrong. No, sorry, they are

11 in pounds Sterling.

12 A. Yes.

13 156 Q. Did that cause you any surprise, that they were in

14 pounds Sterling?

15 A. No, because I thought they were in the Cayman

16 Islands.

17 157 Q. Now, if we just continue through your statement.

18 You said in relation to the interest:

19 "The rate varied from time to time.

However, I had no role whatsoever in
20 determining what that rate actually
was . "
21

22 Did you talk to Mr. Traynor at all about the rate

23 you were getting?

24 A. No, I never mentioned it. It realised it was high

25 at times.

26 158 Q. The money was held on deposit, was it not?

27 A. Yes.

28 159 Q. That is what is shown on the accounts?

29 A. Yes.

30 160 Q. You had been told in the document that I indicated

31 to you a moment ago that the rate of interest was

 1 determined by the Dublin Money Market?

2 A. Yes.

3 161 Q. Was that your understanding?

4 A. No, I understood the money was deposited in the

5 Cayman Islands and the interest was the interest on

6 Sterling.

7 162 Q. Very well. Now, let's come to the next paragraph

8 then, "Withdrawals". When you wished to withdraw

9 money you telephoned Mr. Traynor?

10 A. Invariably, yes.

11 163 Q. You arranged then for a sum to be withdrawn?

12 A. Correct.

13 164 Q. It would "be collected either from Guinness & Mahon

14 Bank or from the offices of 42 Fitzwilliam Place"?

15 A. Yes.

16 165 Q. Used you go personally and collect the money?

17 A. Sometimes.

18 166 Q. Sometimes?

19 A. Yes, not always.

20 167 Q. You would send your secretary or somebody to collect

21 it?

22 A. No, no, it was usually collected by whoever was

23 going to use the money.

24 168 Q. If you were giving money to somebody, that donee

25 would go?

26 A. Yes.

27 169 Q. Who did you give the money to?

28 A. It was either my son or daughter.

29 170 Q. They would collect the money from Mr. Traynor?

23
 2 171 Q. Do you remember how it was given?

3 A. It was probably given in cash.

4 172 Q. Cash?

5 A. Yes, or a bank draft.

6 173 Q. Or a bank draft?

7 A. Yes. There weren't big amounts.

8 174 Q. What about yourself, when you drew it yourself, did

9 you go to Mr. Traynor and get it yourself?

10 A. Yes. That happened only about four times.

11 175 Q. What sums did you collect?

12 A. It would be small amounts, £2,000 would be the

13 maximum.

14 176 Q. Would it have been cash then?

15 A. Yes.

16 177 Q. You got this from him in either Guinness & Mahon or,

17 when he had left Guinness & Mahon and was in Cement

18 Roadstone, you went to Cement Roadstone and got it

19 at the office in Roadstone?

20 A. Correct.

21 178 Q. You say that you "requested monies to be sent to my

22 daughter in Switzerland and this was arranged by

23 Mr. Traynor"?

24 A. He did, yes.

25 179 Q. Do you know how this was done?

26 A. That might have been done on a bank draft, I am not

27 too sure.

28 180 Q. You think there were not many withdrawals, you left

29 the money ...(INTERJECTION).

24
 2 181 Q. This is the note that we have been given and they

3 were the only withdrawals?

4 A. That is it, yes.

5 182 Q. If we just turn over to the paragraph on the next

6 page on "Investments":

7 "There were two significant investments

made by the Trust via Starling
8 Securities Ltd. The first was the
purchase of a house in Spain ... "
9

10 A. Yes.

11 183 Q. Would you tell us how that came about?

12 A. Yes. I cannot remember the date, but I indicated

13 there might be a purchase investment in Spain and

14 that there was a company set up to do that.

15 184 Q. It was an investment?

16 A. An investment, yes. Well, a property, yes. It was

17 a house we used.

18 185 Q. It was a holiday home, was it?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 186 Q. Did you let it out or ...(INTERJECTION).

21 A. No, it was just used ...(INTERJECTION).

22 187 Q. For the family?

23 A. For the family.

24 188 Q. What about the Cork Investments Incorporated? What

25 was that?

26 A. Cork Investments was a company set up to do joint

27 venture development in Atlanta.

28 189 Q. Who set it up?

29 A. Guinness & Mahon.

25
 1 190 Q. Who was the joint venture with, Cramptons?

2 A. No, "Cork Investments" was the company and it was

3 set up to work with an American developer called

4 ...(INTERJECTION).

5 191 Q. Was this, as far as you were concerned, a joint

6 venture by "Guinness & Mahon" ...(INTERJECTION).

7 A. No, "Guinness & Mahon" were not involved.

8 192 Q. Were you involved?

9 A. Yes, "Cramptons".

10 193 Q. "Cramptons" were?

11 A. Well, the Trust was involved. Mr. Frank McGowan was

12 the developer in Atlanta and we did a few joint

13 ventures with him.

14 194 Q. Who was he?

15 A. "Cork Investments".

16 195 Q. Yes, but when you say "we", was this the company

17 called "Cork Investments"?

18 A. Yes.

19 196 Q. It was set up to do a joint venture with

20 Mr. McGowan?

21 A. Correct, yes.

22 197 Q. This was the Trust company?

23 A. Correct.

24 198 Q. The Trust used the money that you had provided for

25 the purpose?

26 A. Yes, exactly. That company is wound up now.

27 199 Q. Yes, I will come to that in the moment. Now, you

28 deal then with the queries that were raised in

29 Appendix C of the letter that we sent you (SAME

26
 2 A. Yes.

3 200 Q. I want you to turn over the page to the paragraph

4 numbered 4 -- do you see that in your statement,

5 paragraph number 4?

6 A. Yes.

7 201 Q. Now, would you look at paragraph number 4 in the

8 appendix to which your paragraph is a reply? Have

9 you got that?

10 A. Yes.

11 202 Q. It says:

12 "Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Ltd.

provided loan and guarantee facilities
13 to Irish residents or to bodies
corporate which they controlled or in
14 which they had an interest secured by
cash deposits with the Company. It
15 appears to have been an important
feature of this service that this
16 security was not referred to in the
loan agreement.
17
If you availed of this service give the
18 date/dates on which you did so, the
name and address of the body corporate
19 or bodies corporate to whom the loan
was granted, the name and address of
20 the institution which granted the loan
and furnish copies of all
21 correspondence relating to the
transaction."
22

23 What you say in answer to that is: Exhibit 1

24 "I am aware of one instance in January

1977, or thereabouts, when a facility
25 was granted to me in the sum of £50,000
for the purchase of a residential
26 premises. The correspondence relating
to this have, I believe, been supplied
27 to you by my solicitor."

28

29 Tell us what you know about that, what you recall

27
 1 about that?

2 A. Yes, there was a loan of £50,000 and which I

3 purchased the property in Dublin.

4 203 Q. A residence?

5 A. Correct.

6 204 Q. You got a loan from Guinness & Mahon?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 205 Q. We have a document, I will refer to it in a moment,

9 of 6th January 1977. Is that what you are referring

10 to, Exhibit 1?

11 A. That is right, yes. That is it.

12 206 Q. Tell us what you recall about the security given of

13 this cash deposit. What do you recall was the

14 arrangement and how did it come about?

15 A. I asked Guinness & Mahon for a loan of £50,000 and

16 they gave me the conditions of that, which I agreed.

17 207 Q. I am asking you about the fact that the loan was

18 backed by a deposit?

19 A. Yes .

20 208 Q. Can you tell us about what the arrangement was?

21 A. I am not too sure what the arrangement was.

22 209 Q. You see, the answer you have given, "I am aware of

23 one instance in January 1977"; is that correct?

24 A. That is the instance we are talking about, yes.

25 210 Q. Tell us what the arrangement was with Guinness &

26 Mahon?

27 A. I understood the arrangement was that I got the loan

28 and the interest was -- I am not too sure now. Let

29 me think about this because I am a bit hazy on this

28
 1 one, I want to get it right. I asked about a loan

2 of 50,000, which they gave me a letter to that

3 effect, and I think I understood then that it was

4 covered by the money in the Cayman Islands. It was

5 a back-to-back arrangement.

6 211 Q. You knew all about back-to-back arrangements, didn't

7 you?

8 A. No, I didn't ...(INTERJECTION).

9 212 Q. There is a memorandum which your accountants wrote

10 to you explaining about back-to-back arrangements

11 and there is a memorandum, which I want to refer to

12 you in a moment, about the back-to-back

13 arrangements. You knew what they were, that

14 Guinness & Mahon, in this case, would have a deposit

15 in their bank, which was owned by Ansbacher, and it

16 would be used for a security for your loan?

17 A. Yes, for that particular one.

18 213 Q. For that particular one?

19 A. That particular one, yes.

20 214 Q. Now, do you remember that?

21 A. I remember that, that is correct.

22 215 Q. You must have negotiated that with somebody. Was it

23 with Mr. Traynor?

24 A. With Guinness & Mahon, yes.

25 216 Q. You negotiated that there would be a back-to-back

26 agreement in relation to that?

27 A. Yes, that is right. I think that is correct.

28 217 Q. You think that is correct?

29 A. I think that is correct, yes. It is going back to

29
 2 218 Q. I am just wondering why you were able to tell us in

3 your statement that that occurred. Do you recall

4 that?

5 A. I do, I recall that.

6 219 Q. You recall that?

7 A. I recall that money, yes, I do, yes.

8 220 Q. You recall the money?

9 A. Yes.

10 221 Q. You recall there was a back-to-back arrangement?

11 A. I think there was. I would have to say, I think

12 there was a back-to-back arrangement, yes.

13 222 Q. Did you make any enquiries after we wrote this

14 letter to you asking for these particulars? Did you

15 make any enquiries from anybody about this?

16 A. Well, no. I discussed it with my solicitor and we

17 felt that we had the information to answer your

18 questions.

19 223 Q. Yes, but I am wondering did you make any enquiries

20 from anybody about this?

21 A. No. Anyone that would have been aware of that, it

22 would probably have been Des Traynor.

23 224 Q. What about Mr. Collery?

24 A. No, I had no contact with Mr. Collery at that stage.

25 225 Q. You didn't talk to him about this?

26 A. No.

27 226 Q. It was your own recollection then?

28 A. To the best of ...(INTERJECTION).

29 227 Q. To the best of your recollection?

30
 1 A. Yes .

2 228 Q. I do not know whether your aware of it or not,

3 Mr. Crampton, but the facility letter says that the

4 funds were made available on a unsecured basis. Do

5 you know that?

6 A. Yes, that is right. That is the same one.

7 229 Q. The facility letter is incorrect if your

8 recollection is correct?

9 A. Well, that is what ...(INTERJECTION).

10 230 Q. That is what written there?

11 A. That is what is there, yes.

12 231 Q. Would you just look at the top of the facility

13 letter, No. 2, the amount, £50,000, Irish pounds,

14 Exhibit 6?

15 A. Yes .

16 232 Q. It was in Irish pounds?

17 A. Yes .

18 233 Q. Is that the only cash-backed loan that you can

19 recall?

20 A. That is correct, yes.

21 234 Q. You see, I must suggest to you, Mr. Crampton, that

22 your recollection is at fault, that we have a

23 document that has been produced from the bank which

24 suggests there was a balance due on a Sterling loan

25 of £61,227, on 31st December 1978, and it was

26 described as "suitably secured". The information

27 which we have obtained from the bank is that in

28 their records any loan which is stated to be

29 "suitably secured" means a loan which is secured on

31
 1 a back-to-back deposit. Can you explain why there

2 is a record of you owing, on a Sterling loan, money

3 which was due on 31st December 1978?

4 A. No.

5 235 Q. Did you have a Sterling loan?

6 A. I cannot recall. No, I cannot recall that.

7 236 Q. I would like, Mr. Crampton, if we could go through

8 briefly the last set of documents you gave us, which

9 we got yesterday (SAME HANDED TO MR. CRAMPTON).

10 Yes, this might be a good time to -- we will break

11 now, Mr. Crampton, and you might like to look at

12 these documents I want to go through with you. We

13 will break for ten or fifteen minutes.

14 A. All right.

15

16 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

17

18 237 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Crampton, we will

19 continue then. Would you

20 look at this file of documents that you gave us

21 yesterday?

22 A. Yes .

23 238 Q. I think it is document No. 10 of 8th March 1972.

24 That is from Kennedy Crowley telling you how the

25 Trusts were going to be set up. Do you see that

26 there were to be six Trusts set up, Exhibit 1?

27 A. Yes .

28 239 Q. Do you see that?

29 A. Yes .
 1 240 Q. Were these fellow Directors of yours?

2 A. Correct.

3 241 Q. Were these Trusts set up, do you know?

4 A. That, I do not know.

5 242 Q. I do not know?

6 A. No.

7 243 Q. You have not talked to your fellow Directors at all

8 about this?

9 A. There is only one alive at moment.

10 244 Q. Who is that?

11 A. Mr. O'Connor.

12 245 Q. Is that Mr. Don O'Connor?

13 A. Correct.

14 246 Q. Is it your recollection that you did not talk to any

15 of them after this financial arrangement was made?

16 A. I understood that there were ...(INTERJECTION).

17 247 Q. You understood that they were all set up?

18 A. Yes, but I could not confirm that. I understood

19 there were six trusts.

20 248 Q. Do you know whether any of them had Ansbacher

21 accounts such as you had or Guinness & Mahon

22 accounts such as you had in Dublin?

23 A. I am sure they had.

24 249 Q. You are sure they had?

25 A. They probably had, yes.

26 250 Q. In other words, you think they carried on the same

27 way as you carried on?

28 A. They might, but not for as long.

29 251 Q. Not for as long?

33
 2 252 Q. Well, we needn't delay, but the next paragraph of

3 this letter says:

4 "As soon as the Trusts are drawn up I

will have the Letters of Wishes signed
5 in each case by Paul Harris, who is the
Settlor."
6

7 The scheme was that you were not to sign the Letters

8 of Wishes, that Paul Harris was?

9 A. Yes, that was the intention.

10 253 Q. Now, would you just move on a couple of documents on

11 past what we have been just looking at. Do you see

12 a letter of 10th March 1978, Exhibit 8?

13 A. Yes.

14 254 Q. This is your handwriting, is it? It is a

15 handwritten letter.

16 A. Yes.

17 255 Q.
"I authorise you to transfer £20,000
18 from the above account of which I am
the beneficial owner, the account of
19 J.D. Traynor."

20

21 Can you remember now what that was about?

22 A. No.

23 256 Q. You cannot?

24 A. No.

25 257 Q. This was to Mr. Furze in the Cayman Islands and you

26 were indicating to him that you were the beneficial

27 owner of the £20,000?

28 A. Yes.

29 258 Q. That was the money that Starling Securities had on

34
 1 deposit?

2 A. It must have been, yes.

3 259 Q. Mr. Furze replies then, that he has made the

4 necessary arrangements, Exhibit 9?

5 A. Yes.

6 260 Q. Now, I want you to look at this file that you gave

7 us earlier. It is documents re Starling Securities

8 and related correspondence (SAME HANDED TO

9 MR. CRAMPTON), and you see at the very end of that

10 file there is a handwritten note, Exhibit 10?

11 A. Yes.

12 261 Q. That that says "Cork Investments USA"?

13 A. Yes.

14 262 Q. And cash in bank, etc. Is that your handwriting?

15 A. Yes.

16 263 Q. Would you just turn over to the last page?

17 A. Yes.

18 264 Q. You say:

19 "It is proposed that the ownership of

Cork should transfer to Ireland. The
20 suggested method is that Frank McGowan
buys Cork from Cayman."
21

22 That is you, is it, your initials?

23 A. Yes.

24 265 Q. And there is a back-to-back loan arrangement to buy

25 Cork from McGowan?

26 A. Yes.

27 266 Q. So, you knew all about the back-to-back

28 arrangements?

29 A. I did at that stage, yes.

35
 1 267 Q. Do you know about what date was this?

2 A. I would say it is probably about ten years, I

3 suppose, ago.

4 268 Q. If you look at the document before that, it is a

5 letter of 10th October 1994, from Ansbacher to

6 Morris Leonard of the Irish Intercontinental Bank.

7 Do you see that letter, Exhibit 11?

8 A. Yes.

9 269 Q. Mr. Furze is there suggesting how "Starling

10 Securities" would sell its shares?

11 A. Yes.

12 270 Q. Does it look as if this document that you had

13 handwritten was written about the same time?

14 A. Yes.

15 271 Q. It was before you had divested yourself of the

16 investment in Cork Investments Limited?

17 A. Yes.

18 272 Q. How was that, in fact, done?

19 A. Excuse me, sorry?

20 273 Q. How was, in fact, the divesting of the investment of

21 the Trust in Cork Investments achieved? You say it

22 was wound up in some way. How was it done?

23 A. It had ceased trading and the money was sent back to

24 ...(INTERJECTION).

25 274 Q. How was it done?

26 A. It was done through the solicitors in Atlanta.

27 275 Q. But tell me how it was done?

28 A. The solicitors were asked to wind up the company,

29 which was done legally, the taxes paid and the money

36
 1 that was left in the bank was sent back to the

2 Cayman Islands.

3 276 Q. What happened then?

4 A. The money from the Cayman Islands came back to

5 Dublin.

6 277 Q. To what bank account?

7 A. To Mr. Sheehan's bank account.

8 278 Q. But on your behalf?

9 A. On my behalf.

10 279 Q. You, personally, on Mr. George Crampton's behalf?

11 A. Well, yes. I had organised that to be done, yes,

12 correct. That would be correct, the time of that

13 would be around -- well, it is only wound up now, in

14 the last year. Cork Investments have now ceased to

15 trade.

16 280 Q. The investment that was undertaken in Cork

17 Investments came back to you through the Trust.

18 A. It came back through the Trust, yes.

19 281 Q. That is all the questions I want to ask you,

20 Mr. Crampton, Ms. Mackey may wish to ask a few

21 questions.

22 A. Yes .

23

24 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. CRAMPTON BY MR. JUSTICE

25 COSTELLO

26

27

28

29
 1 MR. GEORGE CRAMPTON WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY

2 MS. MACKEY

4 282 Q. MS. MACKEY: I have just a very few

5 questions, Mr. Crampton.

6 First of all, if you could just give me one piece of

7 information in relation to the other Trusts that you

8 mentioned, of your fellow Directors. You said all

9 the Directors, except Mr. O'Connor, are now dead, I

10 think?

11 A. Just to check that ...(INTERJECTION).

12 283 Q. I will refer you back to that document. It is in

13 the last bundle that you sent us in yesterday and it

14 is the letter of 8th March 1972, from Don Reid,

15 Exhibit 7?

16 A. Mr. Clarke is dead, Mr. East is dead.

17 284 Q. What I was really going to ask you, Mr. Crampton, if

18 you could give me the full name of each of those

19 Directors? Mr. Clarke?

20 A. Mr. Samuel Clarke.

21 285 Q. Mr. East?

22 A. James Sydney East.

23 286 Q. Mr. O'Connor, you have already said is Mr. John

24 O'Connor?

25 A. Yes.

26 287 Q. Mr. Seymour?

27 A. Sydney Seymour, S.H. Seymour.

28 288 Q. Mr. Webb?

29 A. Mr. Ivan Webb.

38
 1 289 Q. Thank you very much. Now, if I could just refer you

2 to your statement that you sent us in, if you would

3 look at the second last page of the statement,

4 Exhibit 1?

5 A. Yes.

6 290 Q. Up at the very top there you say:

7 "I note in the accounts references to

College Trustees Ltd. I was not
8 particularly aware of the function of
that Company but I now know that it had
9 a management role in relation to the
premises in Spain."
10

11 A. Yes.

12 2 91 Q. When did you become aware that it had a management

13 role in relati on to that? This is the premises you

14 told us that you borrowed the money for?

15 A. Yes.

16 292 Q. When did you become aware that College Trustees

17 ...(INTERJECTION).

18 A. I think I knew early on that it was College

19 Trustees.

20 293 Q. What was its function in relation to that

21 ...(INTERJECTION).

22 A. It managed the affairs of the property.

23 294 Q. It managed the affairs of the property?

24 A. Yes. In other words, it had to pay the fees and

25 expenses.

26 295 Q. How did that come about?

27 A. The Trust was set up through Guinness & Mahon.

28 296 Q. The Trust we have been talking about all the time,

29 the Whitethorne Trust?

39
 1 A. No, the Trust for the property.

2 297 Q. There was another Trust for this property in Spain?

3 A. Yes.

4 298 Q. I was not clear about that.

5 A. The manager of the company was ...(INTERJECTION).

6 MR. SHEEHAN: I am sorry to interject,

7 but I do not think that is

8 a Trust.

9 299 Q. MS. MACKEY: Do you wish to speak to

10 your solicitor for a

11 moment?

12 MR. SHEEHAN: I beg your pardon, sorry.

13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, you have a word with

14 your solicitor.

15 A. Oh, yes, "Marazul" was the company.

16 300 Q. MS. MACKEY: Marazul was the company?

17 A. Yes, and it managed the property in that it paid the

18 fees and the expenses and rates.

19 301 Q. "Marazul" managed it or "College Trustees"? I am

20 just not clear here.

21 A. Marazul managed the property.

22 302 Q. What was the function of College Trustees there?

23 A. I think that they managed -- I am not actually sure.

24 303 Q. Right. Can you remember how College Trustees came

25 into the picture at all or who introduced it?

26 A. It was introduced through Guinness & Mahon.

27 304 Q. To you?

28 A. Correct.

29 305 Q. By Mr. Traynor, was it?

40
 1 A. Mr. Traynor would have been involved, yes.

2 306 Q. In what way was it introduced to you?

3 A. I beg your pardon?

4 307 Q. What were told about College Trustees or how did you

5 get involved?

6 A. Well, I do not know. When setting up Marazul,

7 College Trustees I think set that up. That is the

8 way I read it, and it managed Marazul.

9 MS. MACKEY: I have no other questions to

10 ask Mr. Crampton.

11

12 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. CRAMPTON BY MS. MACKEY

13

14

15 308 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Crampton, in 1972, when you

16 set up the Whitethorne Trust,

17 you say in your statement that you took advice on

18 the setting up of the Trust?

19 A. Yes .

20 309 Q. You said that some of that advice came from Mr. Reid

21 of Kennedy Crowley?

22 A. Correct, yes.

23 310 Q. In answer to a question from Judge Costello you said

24 that you also had other advisors Craig Gardner?

25 A. No, Craig Gardner, not in this regard. Craig

26 Gardner advised us on our business, G&T Cramptons

27 accountants.

28 311 Q. Craig Gardner advised on corporate matters to do

29 with the company?

 2 312 Q. In terms of personal taxation advice, who advised

3 you on that?

4 A. Craig Gardner.

5 313 Q. Craig Gardner also advised you on personal taxation?

6 A. They did all my tax. They do all my tax.

7 314 Q. You took advice when the Trust was set up?

8 A. Correct.

9 315 Q. And all the arrangements that were necessarily

10 associated with that?

11 A. Yes.

12 316 Q. Did you subsequently, either two years or five years

13 or at any stage later, did you take advice on the

14 structures which had been created allowing for the

15 passing of new legislation over the years?

16 A. No, no. I depended on Guinness & Mahon to keep that

17 in order.

18 317 Q. You depended on Guinness & Mahon?

19 A. On Guinness & Mahon, yes. I did not discuss it with

20 Craig Gardner at all, no.

21 318 Q. You did not discuss it with Craig Gardner?

22 A. No.

23 319 Q. You relied on Guinness & Mahon?

24 A. Exactly.

25 320 Q. Was that Guinness & Mahon or was that someone in

26 Guinness & Mahon?

27 A. Well, I suppose it was somebody in Guinness & Mahon.

28 321 Q. Who would that have been?

29 A. Mr. Traynor.

42
 1 322 Q. Mr. Traynor?

2 A. Yes .

3 323 Q. You also said in answer to an earlier question that

4 around 1989, and then again I suppose it was in

5 1992, when the tax amnesty was on the go, that you

6 were concerned that some aspects of the arrangement

7 may not be in accordance with the tax legislation --

8 that is not what you said, but what you said was you

9 were concerned about it?

10 A. I was, yes, correct.

11 324 Q. And you asked Mr. Traynor about this?

12 A. Yes .

13 325 Q. He gave you an assurance that things were in order?

14 A. Yes .

15 326 Q. On two occasions?

16 A. Yes, in connection with it, yes, and the amnesty.

17 327 Q. That indicated that you put a great deal of trust in

18 Mr. Traynor?

19 A. I did. In that regard I did, yes. He was Managing

20 Director of Guinness & Mahon, he was Chairman of

21 Cement Roadstone and he was very highly respected,

22 and I think if he was giving me advice he thought it

23 was correct. I am sure he was. But, I trusted him,

24 what he was saying.

25 328 Q. You have said to us that you did not discuss this

26 aspect of things with your personal tax advisors?

27 A. No, I never, no.

28 329 Q. Was there a reason for keeping the two matters

29 separate?
 1 A. Well, yes. I accepted Mr. Traynor's advice on that

2 matter. In hindsight, probably, I should not have.

3 330 Q. In the Starling Securities papers, in around 1995,

4 there was a dividend paid of £300,000. Actually,

5 the word was "dividends paid". To whom were those

6 dividends paid? If you could possibly turn to the

7 Profit and Loss Account for the year ended 30th

8 September 1995, the second line from the bottom,

9 "dividends £300,000" Exhibit 12?

10 A. Yes. I don't know.

11 331 Q. You don't know?

12 A. I don't know, no. It is some internal arrangement.

13 I don't know anything about that, who it was paid

14 to. It was something within Starling Securities,

15 but there is no dividends received, anyway, that I

16 know.

17 332 Q. Some of the papers which you have presented us with

18 have come relatively shortly ago and we have not had

19 time really to look at them perhaps as carefully as

20 we may have to do.

21 A. Yes .

22 333 Q. The Cork Investments disposal, we were looking at a

23 document, Exhibit 10, a moment ago -- I am just

24 trying to find it.

25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is the very last

26 document.

27 MR. ROWAN: (TO WITNESS) On the last

28 page, which is entitled

29 "Strategy", it says, somewhere in the middle

 1 paragraph:

2 "Frank McGowan buys Cork from the

Cayman Company. GCC and others then
3 use back-to-back loan arrangement to
buy Cork from F. McGowan."
4

5 A. Yes .

6 334 Q. We have established that this was your memorandum?

7 A. Correct.

8 335 Q. Did you devise these ideas yourself or was this with

9 help from someone else?

10 A. This was a suggestion, a suggested method, and I

11 think it was discussed with Des Traynor, but it

12 never materialised. The idea was that the manager's

13 profit from "Cork" could be taken in Ireland and

14 declared in the usual way, but that never

15 materialised. That was a strategy that never

16 developed at that stage.

17 336 Q. Why did you not implement that strategy?

18 A. I cannot remember why I did not. It just didn't

19 happen. I decided then that we should liquidate or

20 terminate that company completely. That is what

21 happened.

22 337 Q. Cork Investments Incorporated was wound up?

23 A. It was wound up, Cork Investments, yes.

24 338 Q. The assets would have been distributed

25 ...(INTERJECTION).

26 A. No, the money went back into the bank and that was

27 transferred back to the Cayman Islands and returned

28 from the Cayman islands to Mr. Sheehan's account,

29 and then that was declared to the Revenue.

 1 MR. ROWAN: Thank you, those are the only

2 questions I have.

4 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. CRAMPTON BY MR. ROWAN

6 MR. CRAMPTON WAS FURTHER EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

9 339 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I would just like to get

10 something clarified,

11 Mr. Crampton. It is about the position about the

12 funds in "Starling Securities". You were referred

13 by Mr. Rowan to the accounts for 1995, and they

14 showed retained profit brought forward of £375,000,

15 and dividends, and you do not know anything about

16 the dividends, you say?

17 A. No, I do not.

18 340 Q. If you look at the accounts for 1996, Exhibit 13,

19 these show that there were retained profits of only

20 £86,660. Can you explain what has happened?

21 A. No. Which one?

22 341 Q. It wasn't the dividend had been paid, do you not

23 know what happened?

24 A. I don't know what that referred to.

25 342 Q. Just let me understand your understanding of the

26 position. It looked as if Starling Securities had

27 retained profits of £375,000 in 1995, but what

28 happened to those? Are they still in Starling

29 Securities?

46
 1 A. No, all the money from that is back in Ireland now.

2 It was brought back to Mr. Sheehan's account.

3 343 Q. To your solicitor?

4 A. Yes.

5 344 Q. When did that happen?

6 A. It happened about two years ago now. It happened

7 during 1998.

8 345 Q. In effect, you terminated the Trust arrangement, did

9 you, in 1998?

10 A. Well, I got the money ...(INTERJECTION).

11 346 Q. You got the money back?

12 A. I got the money back and put it in with the

13 solicitor. It has been declared and tax has been

14 paid up to now.

15 347 Q. On the money, since its return?

16 A. Since its return, yes.

17 348 Q. But I think you told us earlier that no tax had been

18 paid on that money?

19 A. Correct, no tax had been paid on the money before

20 that.

21 349 Q. Before that?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 350 Q. Very well, Mr. Crampton, thank you for your

24 assistance.

25 MR. SHEEHAN: There are two matters we

26 would like to clarify.

27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.

28 MR. SHEEHAN: (TO MR. CRAMPTON) Will I

29 do it or will you?

47
 1 A. You, please.

2 MR. SHEEHAN: Okay. I have documents

3 here which I misunderstood

4 to be the same documents that I had furnished to

5 you. They refer to a loan to a company called

6 Mespil Company Limited, which has a notation on one

7 document which says "suitably secured", and it was

8 an amount of £60,000. Mr. Crampton has no

9 recollection whatever of this and we had discussed

10 Mespil Company previously, which was another joint

11 venture to develop two or three properties on Mespil

12 Road, which never went ahead and the site was

13 subsequently sold to Irish Life. In the intervening

14 period I think some ground rents had been collected

15 and that is what my understanding was as to the

16 reference to those documents there. Mr. Crampton

17 still has no recollection about ...(INTERJECTION).

18 A. It was intended to do a giant development on that

19 site with a Mr. Kingston, that was the proposal and

20 it was taking quite awhile. There was a depression

21 in the property market at the time and the deal

22 never went through and eventually the properties

23 were sold to Irish Life who built an office block.

24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Crampton, we have not

25 got these documents.

26 MR. SHEEHAN: No, and it is partly my

27 mistake. We will be more

28 than happy to make them available.

29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We better have them then.

48
 1 I just want to understand.

2 These documents indicate that Guinness & Mahon made

3 a loan to this joint venture company; is that right?

4 A. They made an intention to give a loan, yes.

5 351 Q. They gave a loan, I think?

6 A. No, the loan was never taken up.

7 352 Q. It was never taken up?

8 A. Not to my knowledge, never taken up.

9 353 Q. But you have got, have you not, this documentation

10 from Guinness & Mahon; is that right?

11 A. Correct, yes.

12 MR. SHEEHAN: It is my mistake.

13 354 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is all right,

14 Mr. Sheehan. (TO WITNESS)

15 The documents indicate, from the Guinness & Mahon

16 records, that the loan which they gave was suitably

17 secured; is that right?

18 A. That is what that document says, yes.

19 355 Q. That would indicate that it was a cash-backed loan,

20 backed by a deposit?

21 A. Yes, if it happened.

22 356 Q. If it happened?

23 A. If it happened.

24 357 Q. But, whether it happened or not, that was the

25 arrangement that was to be entered into?

26 A. Yes.

27 358 Q. Very well. I think we better have the documents.

28 A. Yes.

29 MS. MACKEY: Is that referring to a

49
 1 Sterling loan? Is that

2 the same loan that the judge was asking about

3 earlier?

4 A. Yes. I think it was never likely to happen, because

5 we would probably never have gone ahead with that

6 development. It wasn't a feasible proposition.

7 MS. MACKEY: Was that loan to be a

8 Sterling loan?

9 A. I don't know.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: What was the date of it?

11 MR. SHEEHAN: This is 1977.

12 MS. MACKEY: So it is not the same.

13 MR. SHEEHAN: Well, it may be. There

14 seems to be a reducing

15 balance on it, on the day of this document -- I am

16 sorry, I have not referred it to you -- is 11th

17 October 1977. It says amount £60,000, present

18 balance £51,000.

19 MS. MACKEY: £61,000 is the amount

20 here, £61,000 Sterling

21 MR. SHEEHAN: It may not be the same,

22 but I will furnish these

23 to you in toto. The second thing is that there may

24 be other documents with our accountant, which I

25 wrote to the accountant and asked him to send any

26 documents he had. He sent me back copies of the

27 Starling accounts, but I have something in the back

28 of my mind that tells me that he has other documents

29 in relation to the Spanish property. It only came

50
 1 to me this morning. I will chase those up. I do

2 not believe they will add much to your knowledge,

3 but I will certainly get them. I apologise for

4 that, too.

5 MS. MACKEY: Which accountant is this

6 now?

7 MR. SHEEHAN: This is Mr. Brian Bohan,

8 who has been advising

9 Mr. Crampton on this specific matter.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: On this matter?

11 MR. SHEEHAN: This matter only, yes.

12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Then Mr. Bohan must have

13 gotten documents then. He

14 must have obtained documents.

15 A. He was given all the documents, yes.

16 MR. SHEEHAN: Unfortunately, I didn't

17 have them in my office. I

18 seem to recall documents to do with the Spanish

19 property, which were largely title

20 ...(INTERJECTION).

21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am not so concerned

22 about those, but I am

23 concerned though about the original Trust Document

24 and the file relating to the original Trust, that we

25 require you to write to Cayman to get this. You

26 could also find out from your solicitor what

27 happened to the request which he made in 1998, about

28 these documents.

29 A. Right, we will do that again.

51
 1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We would also require you

2 to write to Mr. Don Reid

3 to request him to make available to us his original

4 file relating to the establishment of this Trust and

5 all documents relating to it.

6 A. Yes

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We would also require you

8 to write to Mr. Lowe, as

9 well, to produce for us the documents which we need,

10 the same documents.

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Finally, Mr. Crampton,

13 it is just a formality,

14 but when the transcript is completed it will be

15 given to you to sign. You will want to read over it

16 to see that it is correct and then sign that it is

17 correct, the transcript of your evidence today.

18 A. Yes, right.

19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you, Mr. Crampton.

20 Thank you, Mr. Sheehan.

21

22 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. CRAMPTON

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

52
VAcxrv^ C^tVA-^'vS
S O VJ-U^xjCS
Appendix XV (22) (l)(b)
 STATEMENT OF
GEORGE CRAMPTON
RE: Response to request of Inspectors appointedtoAnsbacher (Cayman) Ltd by
letter dated 21st December 1999.

I am a Director of the Construction Company G & T Crampton Ltd and have been
since 1948. Certain of the information in this Statement is based on my memory
which I regret is unclear as to detail. Other information is based on facts which have
come to light following recent investigations.

In 1972 I had funds available to me (amount can be supplied if required) in

connection with the former ACC Bank Building at the corner of Hatch Street and
Harcourt Street

G & T Crampton Ltd had at that time a business association with Guinness & Mahon
Bank in Dublin. Apartfrom normal banking arrangements it was involved in a joint
venture company with the Bank to develop housing, generally in the Dublin Area.

During the course of these dealings I became acquainted with Des Traynor who was a
Managing Director of the Bank at that time. He suggested that the'proceeds referred
to above be placed in an off-shore trust based in the Cayman Islands.

Don Reid of Kennedy Crowley Accountants advised on the tax aspects of the
proposal. [ understand that he in turn obtained an opinionfrom Raymond O'Neill
S.C. in relation to the taxation aspects of the proposal. I recall Noel Garland B.L.
also gave advice. I believe a Solicitor involved at the time was John Darly of Fred
Sutton & Co Solicitors. On the advice given I jpas satisfied that the proposed
structure was an acceptable tax avoidance scheme. The investment was duly made
however 1 am unaware as to the particularfinancial details involved as these were
handled by Des Traynor.

The Trust was set up on the 29th March 1972 and funds appear to have been passed to
itfrom two companies namely Winchester Investments Ltd and Corowna Ltd. I am
not aware of any detailsregardingthese companies. The Trustee nominated to the
Trust was Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.

My understanding is that the Trust lent the monies to a company called Starling
Securities Ltd which in turn held these funds on deposit in Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.
(the Company). The Company in turn held an account in Guinness & Mahon Bank in
Dublin, and I understand that these monies together with other monies were deposited
in Dublin. I became aware of this fact in the late 1980's. The monies referred to
above were the only investment made by me into the Trust.
Whitethorn No. 6 Trust is a discretionary trust and its beneficial objects are the issue
of my parents the late George James Crampton and Olive Elizabeth Crampton and
other parties as set out in the letter dated 19th June 1998from John James of Cayman
International Trust Company to my Solicitor. I signed the Trust Document at the
time but I do not have a copy of it now and I do not recall having had a copy of it in
my possession. M y memory is that Des Traynor made all the arrangements in this
regard.

My dealings with the Company were always through the late Des Traynor during his
lifetime and after his death with Padraig Collery. I do however recall having some
dealings with a John Lipscombe in relation to the acquisition of a property in Spain to
which 1 will refer below.

In the early years the monies earned deposit interest and this was reflected in the
accounts of Starling Securities Ltd. These accounts were posted/delivered to me by
Des Traynor on an annual basis and I signed them to confirm they were in order.
This practice continued up to Mr. Traynor's death and ceased thereafter.

I believe the main activities in relation to these accounts fell intofour categories -

1. Accrual of Interest
2. Withdrawals
3. Payment of fees
4. Further investments.

1. Accrual of Interest

The accounts of Starling Securities Ltd disclosed increases in monies on call deposit.
It was due to the accrual of interest thereon. The rate varied from time to time
however I had no role whatsoever in detennining what that rate actually was.

2. Withdrawals ^

1 effected withdrawals by telephoning Mr. Traynor and requesting him to arrange

payment of a particular sum. This sum would then be collected eitherfrom Guinness
& Mahon Bank orfrom die offices of 42 Fitzwillliam Place, Dublin 2. Withdrawals
would either take the form of a Bank Draft or cash. On one occasion I requested
monies to be sent to my daughter in Switzerland and this was arranged by Mr.
Traynor and I note now that it occurred on or about the 27th January 1995. In general
the withdrawals were made forthe benefit of my children however on one or two
occasions monies were withdrawnformy own personal benefit. In general there
were very few withdrawals.

3. Fees

The accounts disclose fee payments to various third parties. While I am not now
familiar with the detail of such fees I am satisfied that they were correct as I
presumed they were approved / checked by Des Traynor. I did not nor was I in a
position to question the particular amounts. I note in the accountsreferencesto
College Trustees Ltd. I was not particularly aware of the function of that Company
but I now know that it had a management role in relationtothe premises in Spain.

4. Investments

There were two significant investments made by the Trust via Starling Securities Ltd
Thefirstwas the purchase of a house in Spain and the second was an investment in an
American Company known as Cork Investments Lie. The U.S. investment occurred
in or about 1985. This company hasrecentlybeen liquidated in the US and the
surplus funds have been repaidtome via the Trust

The Spanish property was bought in the name of Marazul Properties, a Panamanian
company on the advice of Des Traynor. It was he and I believe a John Lipscombe
who made the arrangements in this regard. The monies tofinancethis purchase were
transferredfrom the Starling Securities Account to Spain tofinancethis purchase.

I refer now to Appendix C of your letter dated the 21st December 1999 and the
following are my replies to the specific matters raised therein using the numbering
system set out
t
Cavman Island Trusts and Trust Companies
(1)
a) Please see details set out above in response to this question
b) In or about March 1972.
c) There were no further additions to the best of my recollection.
d) I refer to the two investments set out above namely the purchase of premises in
Spain and the investment in the US Company. Apart from these there were
payments made in favour of family members and one or two payments in favour
of myself. I do not recall the particular extent or details of same other than those
which have already been furnished by way of cowespondence.
e) I do not recall the name of the settlor specifically but I think a Mr. Paul Harris was
involved in some way at the time. He may have been a trustee. Funds were
transferred by Des.Traynor and I have no idea how this was done.
0 I do not recall every signing a letter of wishes.
g) Oral instructions were given to either Des Traynor or Padraig Collery. I do not
have any correspondence in this regard.

The use of deposits maintained hv Irish residents with the Company

(2)
a) Des Traynor c/o Guinness & Mahon Bank. I am not in possession of any
correspondence in this regard.
b) There were no further sums deposit.
c) There were no specific lodgments
d) By way of oral instruction to Des Traynor. Please see details set out above.
e) Not to my knowledge
f) I do not know.
(3) 1 do not recall any involvement with Irish Intercontinental Bank.

I am aware of one instance in January 1977 or thereabouts when a facility was

(4)
granted to me in the sum of £50,000 for the purchase of a residential premises.
The correspondence relating to this have I believe been supplied to you by my
Solicitor.

(5) These services were not applicable to me.

(6) I am not aware.

(7) I did not avail of these services.

(8)
a) (i) Starling Securities Ltd, (ii) Marazul Properties, (iii) Cork Investments Inc
b) None that I am aware
c) None that I am aware
d) Whitethorn No. 6 Trust

(9) Noted

QMacnutmMbtJf
Appendix XV (22) (1) (c)
 fi TABLING s e c u r i t i e s limited

Profit ana Loss Account from 1st January/ 1973

" t o 31st' December, 1974

REVENUES

laterest receivable 12,286.61

less EXPENDITURE:
Incorporation Expenses ^50.00
Management Fees 817.25
Government fees and 7 f0t 3 5
7
n ivr1 3«n
Sundry Disbursements ' . i' 7-60
Ii 11,149.01
 STARLING SECURITIES LIMITED

P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, B. W. I.

Balance Sheet as at 31st Bor.ember, 1974

LIABILITIES

Share Capital 50.00

Profit and Loss Account 11,149.01
Loan Capital - Trustees of
Whitethorns No. € Trust 107,119.35
6 118,318.36

represented by:

ASSETS

125 State Securities Limited

shares offel.00fully paid 125.00
"A/0" Fixed Deposit 7,066.02
"A/0-1" Fixed Deposit 111,249.09
Current Account (121.75)
Appendix XV (22) (l)(d)
 WHITETHORNE NO. 6 TRUST

Trustees: Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited

P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, B. W. I.

. balance Sheet as at 31st December, 1974

LIABILITIES:-
Capital Account _ 100.00
Profit to 31st December, 1974 57,074.35
Corowna Investments Ltd. - Loan Account 12.50
Winchester Investments Ltd. - Loan Account 50,000.00,
& 107,186.85

represented bys-

ASiSETS:-

25 Winchester Investments Ltd.

Shares of CI$1.00
10 Sandpiper Holdings Ltd. * nunu
Shares of CI$1.00 °'
100 Starling Securities Ltd. »
3 U ,o Un U
Shares of CI$1.00
Interest free unsecured loan to
Starling Securities Limited 107,119.35
» • . I lll» I.—.I-— ••!•!•
& 107,186.85
Appendix XV (22) (1) (e)
 o
r
STABLING SECURITIES LTD. CALL DEPOSIT

IN ACCOUNT WITH GUINNESS M A H O N C A Y M A N T R U S T LIMITED

DEBIT CREDIT T BALANCE
)ATE DETAILS

3.4.72 Lodged 50,000.00 50,000.00

7.7.72 Lodged 37,500.00 87,500.00
.2.73 Tfr. to B.N.S. 420.92 87,079.08
L.3.73 Interest: 20/4/72 - 31/3/73 4,800.71 91,879.79
3.4.73 Lodged - Profit Share ex
/—s Sandpiper. 12,310.80 104.190.59
3.*.73 Lodged - Share Capital Interest 904.01 105.094.60
.6.73 S.K.C. - Allocated Cost. 182.10 104,912.50

Note:- Interest rate based on Dublin Money arket Rates a id

applied at quarterly ii tervals. Cur ent rate 8j%
set 25.4.73

fa' y t^-
Appendix XV (22) (1) (f)
•• ' ""
 . PERSONAL

•r
G+JUI '• G U I N N E S S + M A H O N LTD
wBANKERS
IV 9 17 Colleae Green Dublin 2 RQ Box 55A Telenhone:782444

Oar Sef: PO'D/AC 6th January 1977,

Mr. George-Crampton,
G. & T. Crampton Limited,
158, Sfrelbourne Road,
DUBLIN 4.

Dear Sir,
lurther to recent negotiations we write to confirm that
we are prepared to-make a facility available to you subject
to the following terms and conditions:
(1) Borrower: Mr. George Crampton.
(2) Amount: £50,000.00 (Fifty Thousand Pounds)-
Irish £.
(3) Term: In accordance with normal banking
practice all sums advanced are
repayable on demand but in any case
we shall review the Account on the
6th January 1979.
(4) Drawdown: You may avail of the funds by way of
overdraft* on a fluctuating basis as
and when required.
(5) Interest: We propose chaarging interest on the
Loan at 14% per annum fixed. Interest
will be debited to your Loan 'Account
and become payable by you on the
31st March, 30th JUne, 30th September,
31st December annually and at maturity
of the Loan,
(6) Security: The funds are being made available
on an unsecured basis.

Continued...

Tdtgnms:Man.
Oub1l7n.CoT
ain
t;Gr
3t
3t
0n
3.
. Dublin Z Oulim we
:uthJtoMOirH,iott
G:
ufci
n«u.Diimond Tremor lOtpuiy Chf'"ninl. Mwr,,
R
egl
»nr
«d O
ffi
ct: l
aaa
fttgisitrad Nunttec 1OTS2, Non-tucutiv* ObtctonNgilbt a
c J.
P. Dtwbwy. M fPe.
hB
ai
l QJu.innftndu. lc.i. t. O'KMy. toMm^ng).
- - : H .W .
Jtotflian: Cftld C.J. MtC'adnn. Ev
trln. A. . us. J .
E.A
.B. Q
uln
nm, J.C Lov« Jnr., O.T,.
 /WU (* A U U a « AWU W ** I -

Mr. George Crampton 6th Janaary 1977.

(7) Liquidity If there shall be any Increase in

Clause: the cost to us of making or
maintaining the Loan by an amount
which we deem material resulting
from any changes in the reserve
or liquidity requirements to .which
we may be subjected, then we shall
. be entitled to call for payment of
' additional Interest of such amount
as we shall certify as the amount
required to compensate for such
• increased cost with effect l|rom the
date of notification. You shall.
be at liberty within one month
after such notification and
without payment of any premium or
penalty to repay the full amount
of the facility outstanding
together with Interest at the rate
applying prior to notification.
We enclose herewith a copy of this facility letter for
signature by you" and return, thereby confirming your acceptance of
the facility on the terms mentioned.

Tours falthfully}
for GUINNESS + MAHON LIMITED.

©
P. J. Flynn,
Banking Manager,

P. O'Dwyer,
Loans Officer.
Appendix XV (22) (1) (g)
 Kennedy Crowley & Co. Chartered Accountants

Hainault House 69/71 St. Stephen's Green Dublin 2 Telephone 757971

G.C. Crampton, Esq., Ref: DR/GC

9, Maple Road,
Dublin 14.
Date: 8th March, 1972

Re: Cayman Trusts.

Dear Mr Crampton,
I am sorry that it has talcen me rather longer to come back to you with
the draft Letter of Wishes. I an now enclosing si* copies of this
draft so that it may be considered by each of the individuals concerned.
I think that the terms of the letter are fairly self-explanatory and
should not give rise to any problems but, should anyone wish to discuss
them with me I would be happy to do so.
Since I saw you we have sent to the Cayman Islands the revised draft
Trust Deed, together with the detail.i required to complete the appointed
class in each case.
For ease of reference, and to avoid too much Identification, we are calling
the Trusts the Whitethorn Trusts, Your own will be the Whitethorn A Trust,
Mr Clark*is the Whitethorn B Trust, Mr gast's the Whitethorn C Trust, Mr
O'Connor's the Whitethorn D Trust, Mr Seymour'a the Whitethorn E Trust, and
Mr Webb's the Whitethorn F. Trust.
As soon as the Trusts are drawn up I will have the Letter of Wishes signed
in each case by Paul Harris who la the settlor. Two formal steps will then
remain to be taken. The first is the formation by the Trustees of a company
(or companies) to receive income from deposits or Investments on behalf of the
Trustees. The second will be the execution by Paul Harris of a Deed (in
blank) assigning his powers ss Appointor of the Trusts.

rs sincerely,

Ends.
x
l:.f!M«>-vyl O I :«!;rir Torn." * ('•him ill a n t IVir.i'ip::! M.«'iii;i-i's
iV, f: |H ..liin:. U' \ fcttUKllI li-it;'I" V
Ci>ll..r<Vi:« U ! V \ i<rc:i) OV.i.ii»:r .U'\ Ural.! \Ylur!. .- I V \ n Iti!..
l,a:iv»i'vC .iv.vli-i- K'.\ iVivi'l lli>'At'
IVllT I.VIK'i!
Ni;<!'.lWloA v'V \ ,M. v Sskii i'V 'i
U*. lit'ii!
 NO. 712 P. 13-'19
i . 7.FEB.2000 17:29

7 H t y k

fo- fif^cA / f y ?

J
 GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Member of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group
P.O. Box 887
Telephone No 9-4853/4 Grand Cayman
Telex CP 305 British West Indies
Cable Address Guinness

your ret
1 3 t h M a r c h 1 9 7 8
our ret JAF/AJW > '

George C. Crampton, Esq.,

9 Maple Boad,
Clonskea,
DUBLIN 14.

Re: WHITETHORN Ho. 6 THUST and

STARLING SECURITIES LIMITED
Dear Mr. Cramp ton,
Many thanks for yours of tbe 10th March.
I have today made the necessary arrangements as
requested by you.
Vith kind regards,
Yours^ sincerely,
Appendix XV (22) (1) (j)
.W.MJ -.--.A .. —
RNSBfiCHER CRYMflN
n
!
»
Coe/c XUU£SrM£H TS, 4. .

CflJJJ /A/ JBAMK. &P&OY -fss, OOP .

t') I u t e r e s Uhd . foe* tftons AL TK

%

pActJj otont Mi profit rfy .

J/SJZ* frst Jft* .

(?) 7'fore /J a* fi/fev /L fiUtt. M

&U fie^tihA /t -Xtf, Aavc fcfyet* {etc

ftrv/w-fy JtU tiLtf /L '/ft* /'r A*/ / y i

(4-) hit Anit " JJL /*//*" f* Atfc. */

Q u a i l . (MO&U-* tfon*

S e L D
(./) fill /ors ^ rf/j t/ "o^ >

pO Co&K twisfo*' #2St00& (y% a^c

»J jL •

Appro*. *J> /?» /tim/Me*^ dao tee*

* ^ * ... * A /£,„ sfa* /L «

 RHSBflCHER CBYMflN

Mosf v f p u ^ U ^ t t i e f A>U a t &ctett6 J&ip

/t«y M/t /ntn-tfKj**

pic J&hnJ e f AK

/iX •

ftpfrv* • 7*Gut> /* -3*!/•

or 4Sot000 + /tf *

//To, 0*0 tf fo * ^JfDoo

/ U}tt>00

igAy} 4
 ANSBflCHER CAYMAN

Ah press*./- & ex- /r C h J W ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

^ /> /j- a f ^ c ^ - s*

^ ^ p r e f i x * /&/-

tftgcSMs^ AM^ geLy»r*rs ^yOrf,

Cg*. r ^^wjk. ^wr aye* *

 iiini
flNSBACHER CffiURN
ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED *
PO BOX 887
HENRY ANSBACHER
GRAND CAYMAN
j?/ ^ J W CAYMAN ISLANDS
BRTTBII WEST INDIES
Telephone 809 949 S6S5
Facsimile 809 949 7946
Tain CP 4305
Via Facsimile
#011-3531-6785-034
This page only
10 October, 1994
JAFrrm
Morris Leonard, Bsq.
Irish Intercontinental Bank
91 Meuion Square
Dublin 2, Ireland

M Dear Morris,
m Ra:flEQRGH CRAMPTON & SONS
I reviewed my notes as promised over the weekend and as I understand it, the proposal ia as
follows:
M STARLING SECURITIES LIMTTED f'Starling), a Cayman company,
owns shares in a UJ.
m Investment company, CORK INVESTMENTS, INC. fCork")
Starling will contract to sell its shares to a third party individual and will receive cashfrom the
ssle.
Starling will deposit the cash receivedfrom the sale proceeds with yon, and will hypothecate die
funds to secure an advance to an Irish company, to enable it to acquire ihs sharesfrom (be third
party individual. *
At this point, I am uncertain as to whether the price of the shares has been agreed, and therefore,
• I am not sure the extent of die "back-to-back^ arrangement, I will seek to clarify this with my
clients so that you can consider this application In principle once the amount Is known.

Yours sincerely*

A. FURZE

i&v'i&A
\mtim-
r is.
Uiwfcn Btrffag/un MMcliMi«r 6mm;
pste-v/* A imobit ih« Fkil N»iI«MI Bonh Mmm 2wrieA bk if Man Mum
.1 e..jL .i.i >
Ciywn I tit mil Prtlfih Wa«Mn<« Ma tig bug
Appendix XV (22) (1)(L)
* STARLING SECURITIES LIMITED

Profit & Loss Account

from 29th September 1984 to 30th September 1985

REVENUE;-

Interest Receivable 21,634.26

Less EXPENDITORE: -

Management Fees 900.00

Government Fees and

Sundry Disbursements 357.84 1.257.84
20,376.42

Met Profit to 28th September 1984, brought forward 199,827.90

£220,204.32

j*
Appendix XV (22) (1) (m)
«)

STARLING SECURITIES LIMITED

BALANCE SHEET AS AT 30 SEPTEMBER 1996
•• (expressed in Pounds Sterling)

notes 1225
ASSETS
Bank balances:
Current account 2,792
Fixed deposit 129,000
Investment 125
Accounts receivable and prepayments 325
£ 132,242 £

LIABILITIES A N D SHAREHOLDER'S EQUITY

LIABILITIES
Accounts payable and accrued expenses 803

SHAREHOLDER'S EQUITY

Share capital 3 50
Retained profits 90,795
Loan capital 4 40,594
131,439
Total liabilities and shareholder's equity £ 132,242 £
Appendix XV (23) Captain WR Cuffe-Smith
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Captain WR Cuffe-Smith.

a) An undated Letter of Wishes headed Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

Limited.

b) Letter of 10 August 1977 - John Furze to Guinness and Mahon.

c) Letter of 3 April 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Letter of 20 February 1992 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

e) Letter of 30 September 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

Appendix XV (23) (1) (a)
 !

...
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.
P.O.Box. 8fi7,
Grand Cayman,
BRITISH WEST INOIES.

^ Dear Sirs,
) Aa Settlor of the Oiacrationsry Trust established by ms today,
I would wish my Trustees to hold the Trust Fund primarily for
the benefit of Captain Cuffs-Smith, his wife end thsir family and
to make distributions to them of capital and/or income aa may be
required from tims to time. I would however expect the Trueteea
not to make any distributions without first seeking the advice of
Captain Cuffe-Smith, or following his death to consult with his
wife Betty.

In the event of the death of both Captain Cuffs'-Smlth and hia wife,
I would expect you to hold the Trust Funds for the benefit of
their two deughtsrs, Mrs. Lse Lane and Mrs.Margaret Butler in equal
shares absolutely.
)
Nothing in this letter should be taken as a prohibition on the
distribution of the whols of the Trust Fund to sny one parson
entitlsd to benefit from the Trust and furthermore, I would expect
you to give guaranteee for borrowings by eny of the beneficiaries
msntionsd provided thet advice is taken in this mattsr as set out
above.
i
I hereby declare that the requests containsd in this lettsr ere
irrevocable and cannot be changed by me in any way.

« f
:.. r-R -aithfu.ly.
Appendix XV (23) (1) (b)
 4f€3INNESS M A H O N CAYMAN TRUST LIMITS)
£ A Member at tin GukiMM Itahow M*reh*nt Banking Group
T.tax CP 305 Grand C*ymaa
CsMvAMtms SuiniMM Mitel* India*

your rtt
ourral JAF/&i
10th AaguU, 1911
T. R. Ltonand, E&q.
Manage* Account*
GcunntM * Uahon Ltd.
^ 11 College. Gtetn
Dublin 2
1ZELANV
i Vtwt Ra,
CUT. CUFFE-SUITH
I do apologise not hawing ixjpLLui AOOMA. to youx Ivttoi o{ ffttfe June
coneeAiUng -tfce 4ptit in the, *B/LB dipoiit account. This split hm now
been xe&licttd in out books and I haul netaUned tht hypothecation agreement
which you kindly enclosed.
I fuu/e mitten AepcuiateJty today to Copt. Cuffe-Smith in connection uxUh
the. fuiit and enclose (on yowt infatuation a copy of my Izttex.
Kindest A&gaJidi,
YOUAA iincenety,

Pf JOHN A. FURZE

End.
 Fix: 612035

3rd April, 1990.

N. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness 6 Malum Limited,
_ 17 College Green,
^ DUBLIN 2.

Dear David,
Further to my letter of the 27th March when I requested you
to debit Ansbacher Account No.13154602 with Stg.£30,000
and credit the Irish Pounds equivalent to the Account of
Captain W.R. Cuffe-Smith with you numbered 10S75007, I regret
the error in these instructions. The transfer should,
of course have been in Sterling as I understand that his
Account No.10575007 is a Sterling Account.
The purpose of this letter is to confirm the action taken
by Dna Maguire today when she arranged the reversal of the
original transaction and the transfer of the Sterling
S*^ amount.

Apologies for any Inconvenience caused.

Yours sincerely.

J.D. Travnor.

JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (23) (1) (d)
 i'^ffii^MWHilr' j
Pleasereplyto: Box S87, Quad Csysum, ( mil lilimll. mtiTlnlifcii J
42 Fitzwflliam Square, 9) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305/
Dublin 2.
Tet 765144/763065
Fax: 612035

20th February, 1992.

M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Kanager - Operations,
Guinness i Nahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DOBLIN 2.

Dear David,
Could you please arrange to have the enclosed draft for
Stg.£30,000 lodged to credit of Account No.10575007 in the
name of Captain Cuffe-Smith.
I would be grateful if you could acknowledge in due course.

Yours sincerely,

J.D. Traynor.

JDT/AJW
 Appendix XV (23) (1) (e)

T
 Ansbacher Limited
Pleasereplyto: P.O. Box 117. Grind Cayman, Cayman Island*. Bntuh West Indies
42 Fhzwffliam Square. Telephone: (S09) 949-8633 Telex: CP 4303
Dublin 1 Facsimile (109) 949-7946 (809) 949-3267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035

30th September, 1992.

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2 .

Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.£117,420.54 from
Ansbacher Limited No.1 Account No.02/01087/81 to:
Guinness a Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
Dublin 2,
for credit to the Account of
Captain and/or Mrs. Cuffe-Smith,
Account No.10575007.
It would be appreciated if this transfer could be made today
30th September please.

Yours sincerely.

For ANSBACHER LIMITED

/ v -' O
DPC/AJW

AMSMl£aOPTHEALSO
AMBAUXATIO
CIB3IKtMXJtIMATIONALTWfTOftOWOFGOh9ManWRHOPyiCIS
n SANAMAS. W R M VBUMN BUNDS.
OVSKMSSY. MONACO AKDSWHSHLAND

3*24=
Appendix XV (24) Mr James P Culliton
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
James Culliton.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr James Culliton dated 28 February 2000

(redacted).

b) Bank draft of 15 September 1987 in favour of a member of Mr Culliton's

family (name redacted).

c) Cheque dated 20 July 1987 in favour of a member of Mr Culliton's family

(name redacted).

d) Letter of 31 January 2000 from Gerrard Scallan O'Brien to Inspectors.

Note:

The Inspectors have redacted the enclosed documents to remove names not relevant to
this Report.
Appendix XV (24) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JAMES CULLITON

UNDER OATH

ON MONDAY, 2 8TH FEBRUARY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE DECLAN COSTELLO

MS. NOREEN MACKEY B.L.

SOLICITOR to the INSPECTORS: MS. MARY CUMMINS

INTERVIEWEE: MR. JAMES CULLITON

REPRESENTED BY: MR. BRIAN STRAHAN

GERRARD, SCALLAN & O'BRIEN

HAINAULT HOUSE

69/71 ST. STEPHEN'S GREEN

DUBLIN
 1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON MONDAY, 28TH

2 FEBRUARY 2 000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am Declan Costello and

5 Ms. Mackey is on my right.

6 As you know, we are appointed Inspectors by the High

7 Court. This is not a Court or a Tribunal, it is an

8 interview and if there are any questions on which

9 you would like the advice of your solicitor, please

10 tell me and we will stop to allow you obtain that

11 advice. If your solicitor wishes to discuss any

12 questions or any point arising on any question with

13 you, we will stop and allow you to consult with your

14 solicitor.

15 A. I appreciate your understanding, Mr. Inspector.

16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Culliton, I am now

17 going to ask our

18 solicitor, Ms. Cummins to administer the oath to

19 you.

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

3
 1 MR. JAMES CULLITON HAVING BEEN SWORN WAS EXAMINED AS

2 FOLLOWS:

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Culliton, you have

5 helpfully supplied through

6 your solicitor a statement and I will come to that

7 in a moment, but before doing so just by way of

8 introduction I would like you to give your general

9 background to your association with Cement Roadstone

10 and your association in particular with Mr. Traynor?

11 A. Certainly. I joined Roadstone in 1952 as an 18 year

12 old. At that time Roadstone was a very small

13 company indeed. It was owned and managed to a large

14 extent by Tom and Donal Roche. They had about 100

15 employees at that time and one pit and one quarry.

16 I found it a fantastic learning experience and it

17 just grew and grew with the Irish economy. By 1970

18 which was the year of the merger with Cement, it had

19 reached profits of about £1 million and it was a

20 publically quoted company. We had no intention of

21 bidding for the Cement company but they went on

22 strike for five months and we had no raw materials

23 and we would have ended up in serious financial

24 difficulties, so we made what was regarded as an

25 outrageous bid for Cement and we were satisfied at

26 least it would settle the strike very quickly, which

27 it did in a couple of weeks.

28

29 I came up through the sales and marketing. I was

4
 1 never an accountant or a financial person and I went

2 into general management. When the Cement Roadstone

3 merger was formed, that was the first time I met

4 Mr. Traynor and that would have been in early 1971.

5 He was in an unusually powerful position even then

6 because he was defending Cement against Roadstone.

7 As Managing Director of Guinness Mahon he was the

8 financial advisor. The merger would not have

9 happened except that the British company Readymix

10 bid for Roadstone in the middle of our bidding for

11 Cement, so we were seeking a merger with Cement and

12 we were fighting off an unwelcome bid from the giant

13 Readymix. The Government then took a hand because

14 they did not want to see Roadstone getting into

15 foreign hands, you could think like that in those

16 days and they leaned on Irish Life who had about a

17 10% shareholding in each company to bring the two

18 companies together.

19

20 That is what happened and we were fortunate that

21 Sean Lemass who had retired as Taoiseach agreed to

22 become independent chairman of the new company.

23 Unfortunately some months after he became chairman

24 he fell into serious bad health and he died a year

25 later. Unfortunately we were then left without a

26 chairman and serious rowing took place between Tom

27 Roche on one hand for Roadstone and Ankerlund on the

28 other, they being joint Managing Directors of the

29 merged company. Lots of things happened that should

5
 1 not have happened and eventually after Bob Willis

2 was Chairman for a short time and had a holding

3 operation, Michael Dargan was head hunted in as

4 non-Executive Chairman.

6 At that time I wasn't on the Board. They decided to

7 hold a competition for Chief Executive and they had

8 international advisors. I won that competition and

9 I was appointed Chief Executive of the Group in July

10 1974 and that is when I became involved with Des

11 Traynor as a non-Executive Director.

12 2 Q. You were Chief Executive and he was non-Executive

13 Director?

14 A. Yes, he was. He was on the Board from the end of

15 1970 and I joined the Board of CRH in July 1974.

16 3 Q. Sorry, as Chief Executive you were also on the

17 Board?

18 A. Yes, I was. When I became Chief Executive I was

19 appointed to the Board simultaneously. I retired as

20 Chief Executive in 1987 which was the year that Des

21 Traynor became Chairman ultimately.

22 4 Q. Your relationship would have been a very close one,

23 is that right?

24 A. Yes. In the sense that he was Managing Director of

25 Guinness Mahon and I was determined to make CRH into

26 an international company. At that time CRH was 95%

27 Republic of Ireland and we were extremely vulnerable

28 because the economy had its good days and its bad

29 days and we just came in and out with the tide. The

6
 1 Board was structured two-thirds non-executive and

2 one-third executive, so the non-executives held the

3 balance of power at all times. For that reason

4 alone I had to work and brief the non-Executive

5 Directors, all of them, as to why we should go to

6 America, why we should go to mainland Europe and all

7 the things that were involved. I would have met Des

8 Traynor, I would say, four or five times a month

9 mainly in briefing him. I would have met Bob Willis

10 and the others as well, the other non-Executive

11 Directors. So, yes, I formed a very high opinion of

12 Des Traynor based on his performance in CRH.

13 5 Q. Mr. Culliton, if we come to your solicitor's letter.

14 Have you got a copy of it there, the letter of

15 31st January?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 6 Q. You are replying to matters that we had raised in a

18 letter.

19 A. Yes.

20 7 Q. What I would like you to do would be to expand a

21 little bit on the matters that you dealt with in

22 this letter. In paragraph 2(a) the name and address

23 of the person who informed you of the service,

24 correspondence and documentation in relation to it.

25 Perhaps you would tell us in as much detail as you

26 can remember the way in which the question of this

27 service that we referred you to and exactly what the

28 conversations were with Mr. Traynor?

29 A. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to remember the

7
 1 conversations with him but I clearly remember him

2 suggesting this facility to me. May I say, I take

3 full responsibility for my own mistakes in this, but

4 if you bear in mind that he was a very senior

5 Director of CRH, he was on the Remuneration

6 Committee and he was on the Finance Committee. More

7 than that he was representing the Cement side of the

8 house which was sort of two-thirds Cement and

9 one-third Roadstone, they being the relative sizes

10 of the two companies. I may have provoked his offer

11 to me in that I probably was referring to the very

12 high tax rates at the time, the top rates of tax in

13 the 1970's were 70% to 77% during the 1970's. He

14 suggested this facility, I did not initiate it, I

15 did not know about it.

16 8 Q. Would you tell me now what it was?

17 A. Yes, he said that he could place money for me in a

18 demand account, that the deposit would have a

19 variable rate of interest and that the interest

20 would be paid gross. I had on deposit I think it

21 was £10,000 to £12,000 in a bank account here and I

22 suppose I was naive enough to pay that from an Irish

23 bank account into this facility. It was quite clear

24 to me that it was to be secret. I got no

25 application form to sign, no documents, no

26 statements and there was no reference to fees or

27 commissions for Guinness Mahon or for Des Traynor.

28 9 Q. Did he tell you where the deposit would be placed?

29 A. I had never heard of the Cayman Islands 20 years

8
 1 ago, Mr. Inspector, and my impression clearly was

2 that it was the Channel Islands.

3 10 Q. It was offshore anyway?

4 A. Absolutely offshore. He either told me or I assumed

5 it was the Channel Islands because at that time that

6 is where offshore funds went. From time to time I

7 gave Des Traynor money to put in.

8 11 Q. Just before we come to that, I would like a little

9 more detail. Do you remember when this was,

10 Mr. Culliton?

11 A. Yes, 1979.

12 12 Q. Your understanding was that he was going to place

13 funds that you gave him offshore, you thought, in

14 the Channel Islands?

15 A. Yes.

16 13 Q. You would get a variable interest rate, it would be

17 paid gross and it would be secret and that meant

18 that you would not be returning the interest for tax

19 purposes?

20 A. That was my mistake. I knew then that I should have

21 declared this account, but I didn't do that.

22 14 Q. I appreciate your approach to this whole problem

23 Mr. Culliton, but I just want to get the actual

24 facts now. I am not making a judgment on the

25 situation. So you obtained the benefit of this

26 facility that he gave you?

27 A. I did.

28 15 Q. That was in 1979 and you transferred money to him

29 then. Continue then, please. How was the facility

9
 1 operated?

2 A. From time to time I visited him in Trinity Street.

3 He had an office just at the back of Guinness Mahon

4 and I would have been in and out anyway to brief him

5 between Board meetings on CRH affairs. If I needed

6 money I only needed to give him a few days notice or

7 if I had money to put in, I could bring it in and

8 give it to him in the bank. All my dealings with

9 him until I closed the account were in Trinity

10 Street in his bank.

11 16 Q. When you gave him money, this was to be lodged to

12 this offshore account.

13 A. Yes .

14 17 Q. Did you give it to him in cash or did you give it to

15 him by cheque or how was it done?

16 A. I honestly can't answer that one. I presume that

17 the drawings were in cash because he was in the

18 bank, but I started off with a cheque.

19 18 Q. What I want to get clear is did you give him

20 sterling drafts or anything like that?

21 A. No.

22 19 Q. They would have been Irish currency or a cheque from

23 an Irish bank?

24 A. Unless occasionally I had a sterling draft, I could

25 have used that.

26 20 Q. This would be occasionally?

27 A. That would be occasionally, yes.

28 21 Q. You would from time to time then add to the deposit

29 and then you would obtain drawings accordingly as

10
 1 you needed it?

2 A. That's correct.

3 22 Q. These drawings were usually cash in the bank?

4 A. The drawings, I wouldn't say exclusively but I think

5 for the purpose of the question you are asking me I

6 would say virtually all cash.

7 23 Q. This took place in Guinness Mahon because

8 Mr. Traynor, we learned, as Chairman of Cement

9 Roadstone had an office in Cement Roadstone but he

10 hadn't an office in Cement Roadstone during the

11 period that we are concerned with?

12 A. No, I decided in 1986 to retire, it was entirely my

13 own decision. I had been 13 years as Chief

14 Executive which is a very long time. The company

15 was transformed and we had huge interests in America

16 and mainland Europe and so on. At the same time

17 Michael Dargan had decided to step down as Chairman,

18 he having been about 14 years in the Chair and Des

19 Traynor was chosen unanimously by the Board to

20 become Chairman at the AGM in May 1987. Tony Barry

21 was chosen towards the end of 1986 as Chief

22 Executive designate, effectively my successor. When

23 Des Traynor became Chairman I said to both of them;

24 "look, for the remaining few months of my Chief

25 Executorship there is no point in my forming a

26 relationship with you, Des Traynor. Look to the

27 future." I said the same to Tony Barry; "build your

28 own relationship." Because the relationship between

29 a Chairman and a Chief Executive was hugely

 1 important in a big group, the chemistry has to be

2 right. At that time Michael Dargan's office was in

3 Pembroke Street, 42 Fitzwilliam Square did not exist

4 until 1989, maybe 1990. It was after my time as an

5 Executive anyway. Des Traynor moved into Michael

6 Dargan's office in May 1987 but, as I say, I didn't

7 have a chief executive relationship with him, it

8 would have been silly to have done so. I stood back

9 and let Tony and himself do that and have the

10 relationship.

11 24 Q. The facility that Mr. Traynor had arranged for you,

12 it came to an end when, Mr. Culliton?

13 A. I wanted to end it as I was retiring. The Board

14 kindly invited me to stay on as a non-Executive

15 Director and I did, I accepted that from the

16 beginning of 1988, I was then a non-Executive

17 Director. The Board meetings were held in Belgard

18 Castle, maybe a very odd one was held in Fitzwilliam

19 Square and I remained as a non-Executive Director

20 until I became very ill at the end of 1993 and I

21 retired from the Board in 1994. Just after that AGM

22 Des Traynor died as well.

23 25 Q. The offshore facility that you had arranged, when

24 did that complete?

25 A. Early to mid 1987.

26 26 Q. I want to ask you about a financial transaction

27 which has come to our notice. It is a lodgment

28 which was paid into an account in the name of Amiens

29 Security to which we refer in our letter. This

12
 1 appears to have been an account which was operated

2 by Mr. Traynor for different purposes and there is a

3 lodgment to this account on 15th September 1987. It

4 is an Allied Irish draft payable to

5 for £7,684.34 (Exhibit 1). Can you

6 recollect what that could have been and

7 could have been?

8 A.

9 This is a draft

10 for how much?

11 27 Q. For £7,684.34. Sorry, there is a second one on

12 20th July 1987, the payee was for

13 £6,491.10 and it is a J&E Davy cheque (Exhibit 2).

14 A. I would have to think about those, but I know all

15 the time I have been supporting financially

16 It looks to

17 me as if they would be the sale of shares for

18 28 Q. Really what I would be interested in is can you

19 remember how did it come about that these cheques

20 were apparently given to Mr. Traynor and lodged by

21 him in Amiens Security's account. It looks as if

22 you did not pay the sums directly to , in some

23 way Mr. Traynor was involved in the transfer.

24 A. That is a bolt from the blue quite honestly. I

25 can't recall the context of those two payments but

26 if it is J&E Davy, it certainly looks like the sale

27 of shares.

28 29 Q. Perhaps we could get it in a different way. When

29 you were helping your sister and transferring funds

13
 1 to , how do you recall that was affected?

2 A. Only last week I sent £1,000 pounds, it is not

3 relevant really but...

4 30 Q. Can you remember back in those days how you would

5 have sent monies to ?

6 A.

10

11

12 I can't relate those two payments. On

13 another occasion I invested £20,000 for , that

14 would have been about ten years ago.

15 31 Q. It is just that I want to clarify, if at all

16 possible, Mr. Traynor's relationship with you. You

17 make very clear to us about the facility that was

18 offered and I want to ascertain whether or not these

19 particular cheques were part of the facility that he

20 had given or were they a different arrangement?

21 A. No, you can take it that I only had one arrangement

22 with Mr. Traynor and if you have identified these

23 cheques, I certainly gave them to him.

24 32 Q. You would have given them to him?

25 A. Yes, absolutely, I can't think of any other context

26 in which I would have done otherwise.

27 33 Q. There are two other matters I want to clarify with

28 you, Mr. Culliton. You said that this arrangement

29 would have come to an end in 1987. Did you avail of

14
 1 the tax amnesty provisions at any stage?

2 A. I didn't avail of the tax amnesty but in 1998 I made

3 my best effort to pay the tax and the penalties. In

4 1998 I calculated as best I could the amount of tax

5 that should have been paid. Because I didn't have

6 any documentation, I didn't know the interest rate

7 that I was getting from year to year. I calculated

8 as best I could that the tax plus the penalties came

9 to £26,000, that being 15% punitive interest over

10 nine years I think it was. Because of the

11 uncertainty and because I was determined to put that

12 behind me and get it off my conscience, I paid the

13 Revenue through a solicitor £50,000 for which I have

14 a receipt and I can show it to you or give it to you

15 now. That was done on an anonymous basis and the

16 reason I did it in 1998 on an anonymous basis was I

17 just did not want to create more trouble for my own

18 company CRH and Des Traynor. Feel free to have a

19 look at the receipt from the Revenue.

20 34 Q. No, I do not need to. So the position as far as you

21 are concerned is that any possible tax liability has

22 been paid?

23 A. I am confident of that, yes, but as to the precise

24 way the Revenue would treat this omission on my

25 part, I am not clear on that.

26 35 Q. Very well.

27 A. They may say it is not just 15% per annum, it is

28 more, but I honestly tried in 1998 to put it behind

29 me.

15
 1 36 Q. Very well. One last thing I want to ask you about

2 Mr. Culliton, at the last main paragraph of your

3 letter you referred to what happened when you were

4 stepping down as Chief Executive in November 1987?

5 A. Yes.

6 37 Q. You will appreciate that our concern is in relation

7 to Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust and later known as

8 Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.

9 A. Yes.

10 38 Q. If this was not an Ansbacher company we are not

11 concerned with this matter. I would like you to

12 tell me whether you think this was an Ansbacher

13 company from which these payments were made or do

14 you know?

15 A. There was no reason at all for it to be an Ansbacher

16 company. Perhaps I could just explain briefly and I

17 can elaborate then if you wish to question me

18 further. The CRH files in 1987, Des Traynor's files

19 show that he in particular was anxious to make some

20 form of final payment to me as retiring Chief

21 Executive, a final bonus or some way of showing the

22 Board's appreciation of the fact that the company

23 when I became Chief Executive had a value of

24 £25 million was now worth about £700 million and was

25 a well respected international group with big

26 interests in America, Europe and in the British

27 Isles and so on. The advice he got was that any

28 payment to me would have to be declared in the

29 company's accounts, the annual report. He was

16
 1 obviously reluctant to make a payment that would

2 attract that sort of attention. It wasn't, I think,

3 Mr. Inspector, that he thought the shareholders

4 might have any problem with it, in fact at the AGM

5 of May 1988 they were very warm in their praise of

6 my contribution as leader of the team and so on. If

7 he made a payment to me apart from that issue, it

8 could have triggered off a higher pension because

9 the pension was based on your last year's

10 remuneration which would have been very expensive

11 for the company. Another reason I think why he

12 didn't want it to be seen in the annual report to

13 have made a big £100,000 payment to me or £120,000

14 was that Mr. Haughey had become Taoiseach in August

15 1987 and had brought in sort of a hair-shirt

16 environment where everything was frozen and there

17 were cutbacks in health services and so on. Wages

18 and directors' fees and all that sort of thing were

19 being watched very carefully.

20

21 So, he devised this alternative which was to make

22 gifts to , not that they had provided

23 any services to the company, that was absolute

24 clear. I didn't know about this research going on

25 or this sort of thinking because you never got

26 involved in your own remuneration, there was a Board

27 Remuneration Committee for that. Just before I

28 retired he called me in and he said that the Board

29 had decided to give gifts to of

17
 1 £20,000 each and that there were two important

2 requirements; (1) they must come from an overseas

3 subsidiary of CRH, and (2) must be the

4 sole beneficiaries of this money.

6 To answer your question, there was no need from a

7 taxation point of view or any other point of view

8 for that to be a Cayman Island account and my hope

9 is that it is not a Cayman Island account. Brian

10 Strahan, my excellent advisor, was absolutely

11 adamant and I was very happy myself to draw it to

12 your attention because it was Des Traynor and it was

13 Guinness Mahon, and I am satisfied that they did pay

14 this from an overseas account, that he asked me to

15 act as intermediary and I ensured that

16

17

18

19

20

21 The answer is I don't know what Des Traynor

22 did to implement this.
23 39 Q. You were told that the money was coming from an
24 overseas subsidiary of CRH?
25 A. Yes .
26 40 Q. Where the overseas subsidiary got the money from you
27 do not know, is that the simple position?
28 A. Yes, that's right.

29 41 Q.
We have had evidence of overseas companies of Cement

18
 1 Roadstone which existed and from which payments were

2 made to Directors for expenses. Could it have been

3 from one of these companies or was it a company

4 especially set up, do you know?

5 A. I would say it was one of the normal CRH overseas

6 companies but I couldn't be certain which one. All

7 I know is what Des Traynor told me and I faithfully

8 carried out my part as intermediary. I certainly

9 got the money.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Culliton, thank you.

11 I have no further

12 questions to ask you but Ms. Mackey would like you

13 to ask you a question or two.

14 42 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Culliton, really I

15 have only one question and

16 it is just on that very last issue. When you

17 explained there to Mr. Justice Declan Costello that

18 you believed the money came from an offshore account

19 because Des Traynor was involved and then you said

20 "and it was Guinness Mahon," what exactly did you

21 mean by that?

22 A. I am bewildered by the revelations about Des Traynor

23 in the last couple of years because that is not the

24 man that I knew as a colleague, I have to say that.

25 I really am bewildered, he just fooled us all. My

26 impression is that he didn't leave Guinness Mahon in

27 1986/87, he continued on as Guinness Mahon.

28 43 Q. Your impression is that he did not leave?

29 A. My understanding at the time and even up to two

19
 1 years ago was that he changed his role in Guinness

2 Mahon, that he left as Managing Director of Guinness

3 Mahon Ireland but I thought that was because he was

4 becoming Chairman of CRH, but he let it be known to

5 us that he had a continuing relationship in the

6 bigger Guinness Mahon group.

7 44 Q. Can you explain that a little bit further? What

8 exactly did he make known to you or what did you

9 understand?

10 A. That he was looking after overseas and offshore

11 business in Guinness Mahon.

12 45 Q. Did he specify what that was?

13 A. He may have but I don't recall, but my firm

14 recollection is that he continued on sort of

15 seemlessly as Guinness Mahon in a different role. I

16 have heard recently that there was some dispute in

17 Guinness Mahon and there was some loan, I didn't

18 know anything about that, nor did we when we came to

19 select a chairman. He is a complete enigma. He

20 was a very able and likeable person. There was

21 nothing cold or calculating about Des Traynor. He

22 was a most compassionate man and I am as bewildered

23 as many people reading about the events of the last

24 couple of weeks having been close to him.

25 46 Q. When you said a few moments ago that it was Des

26 Traynor and Guinness Mahon, were you speaking in

27 that context that you believed he was associated, so

28 that it must be Guinness Mahon?

29 A. 'Offshore' is nearly a dirty word now and this was

20
 1 an offshore payment.

2 47 Q. When you say it was an "offshore payment," he had

3 explained to you that it was from a non-resident

4 company?

5 A. A non-resident company.

6 48 Q. Your solicitor says in this letter that the monies

7 were received from an offshore account. In other

8 words, this non-resident company had an offshore

9 account, was that your understanding of it?

10 A. What he said to me was that he was setting up a

11 company for to receive the money from

12 the CRH.

13 4 9 Q. He was setting up a company?

14 A. Yes, he was setting up a company, but my solicitor

15 is very sceptical about whether that company was

16 ever set up and I am myself now. The CRH subsidiary

17 could have been in Northern Ireland or Britain, but

18 he didn't use a non-resident account, I think he

19 used an overseas account of CRH.

20 50 Q. Can you explain how the money arrived to you?

21 A. Yes, I can.

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 , and I suggested that he would pay this in

29 instalments over a couple of years, 1988/89, instead

21
 1 of all in one go. He saw no problem in that. As I

2 understood the arrangement, it was CRH money that he

3 was dispensing to me. He was quite happy about this

4 arrangement. So I got it from him in instalments

5 and the final part of it would have been in early

6 1991, so in 1988-1990 and early 1991 I got the

7 £120,000. I was distributing money to

Q
O
9 Over

10 the same period of 1988-1991 I myself distributed

11 about £140,000 to them, so I didn't earmark the

12 money.

13

14 Then I wanted

15 make absolutely sure that there was documentary

16 evidence that they got the CRH money, so between the

17 end of 1990 and early 1991 I invested six by £20,000

18 in savings certificates, they are the ones I

19 referred to. That was the way, it was paid to me in

20 instalments.

21 51 Q. It was Mr. Traynor himself who gave you the money?

22 A. At all times.

23 52 Q. By cheque or bank draft?

24 A. It was mainly cash but there were at least two bank

25 drafts that I remember that he gave me.

26 53 Q. Can you recollect what bank they were drawn on?

27 A. I have an idea it was Bank of Ireland but I can't be

28 certain. I didn't think there was anything wrong

29 with this and I am sitting here and I know it looks

22
 1 awful.

2 54 Q. We are only asking you questions because you very

3 properly raised it yourself. If it is as Mr.

4 Justice Costello explained to you, if it is an

5 Ansbacher account, then it is relevant to our

6 enquiries to look into it.

7 A. I have no evidence whatsoever that it was nor should

8 it have been because it wasn't my money, it was

9 CRH's money coming backwards and there was no tax

10 advantage because it was explained to me that these

11 were gifts that were perfectly in order, therefore,

12 it didn't occur to me there was anything wrong.

13 MS. MACKEY: Very good, thank you very

14 much, Mr. Culliton.

15 55 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just one point I would

16 like to clarify with you,

17 Mr. Culliton, in relation to your understanding

18 about Mr. Traynor's role when he ceased to be

19 Managing Director of Guinness Mahon and became

20 Chairman of Cement Roadstone, you said that he gave

21 you the impression that he still had connections

22 with Guinness Mahon.

23 A. Yes.

24 56 Q. Did you know that Guinness Mahon had overseas

25 subsidiaries?

26 A. They were a London company.

27 57 Q. Yes, and the Irish company was a subsidiary of the

28 London company.

29 A. Yes. He didn't just give the impression, he would

23
 1 have told us that it was just a change of role for

2 him. I didn't know all that much about Guinness

3 Mahon overseas but I assumed they were an

4 international bank with branches.

5 58 Q. So you did not know that Guinness Mahon Ireland had

6 in fact its own subsidiaries in the Channel Islands

7 and in the Caymans?

8 A. No, I didn't know that. I knew they were a branch

9 of the London Guinness Mahon.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, I see. Very well,

11 Mr. Culliton, thank you

12 very much for your assistance.

13

14 END OF INTERVIEW

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29
V A c x f ^ G^vlWcvi

VjvxAVC^

\ 0Mr\c>O
Appendix XV (24) (l)(b)
: i-f *

^ .: •••*• • • • >.•"<] vjij * I;

\ > Allied Irish Finance Compa^;LimMi:;jijaMj

Allied Irish i a f f l M ^ ^ :
7/12 DAME STREET,
m »
•I > I II
lm Ttawi H B M i -r. ^ l ^ i f f1 U
JJ. " L 1
^ WiM
1 MIL I 8EV:;nl SIX 1 / a f H T »
8IX j ** 1

J i t S M i . W
Appendix XV (24) (1) (c)
 1/g
?<gg— 09:32 GERRflRD SCPLLPN 8. O'BRIEN • 2033929
N0.SB6 D02
5QtiB»

HriM&Hooa, WIS 8t> I M M Cm* MMn X

W H T n H n M M n i ORn I 4780824,p.D.1 •« 1»

««r rib yvwr r*ft 4<»i 1 t I It I tQ D

...» flJ8«M/08 *<« Jtiuiaiy 2000

The Inspectors -S.
appoint** by Order of the High Court
of Ansbachar Cayman Ltd.,
Third Floor,
Trident House,
Blackcock,
/•s CO. DUBLIN.

Ra: inspectors appointed to Anabacher Cayman Ltd..

Our oHent: J.P. Cuttton Esq.,
Dear Sirs,

We act on bahaK of P. Culllton Esq.. of Traaaoapa, Faasaroa, Bray, Co. Wicklow

and we refer to your letter of the 21* December addressed to our client.
Our client wishes to co-operate fully with you in the course of your inquiry and
hereby replies to the question raised at Appendix C of your latter aa follows:

"(1) Not applicable - (Cayman Island Trusts and Trust companies)".

"(2) The use of Deposits maintained by Irish Residents with the company."
"(a) J.O. Traynor Managing Dicector .
Guinness and Mahon Ltd., Trinity Street, Dublin 2, At no stage (fid I enter into a
r-v. formal agreement, sign en application form or racaive any statements, receipts or
letters in connection with this deposit, it it possible, although I do not recall this,
that J.D. Traynor at my request could have given ma a hand written note of the
balance on deposit. However this account waa closed 13 years ago and I have
no correspondence or notes."
"(h) Rret availed o1 In 1979 (to tha beat of my recollection) and between that
date and 1986/87 amounts ware put in and taken out on an occasional basis."

He) Exclusively with J.D. Traynor, usually at hie office at Guinness & Mahon
Trinity Street."

"(d) I always contacted J.D, Traynor, he usually handed me the money at his
bank but occasionally he left it In a seated envelope with his secretary Ms. J.
Williams to give to me."

J, A.fflttfcta, H. *. I. CfDwinU, S. f. tofcuv 1U. A. Mrftt.

11/0- 09:32 GERRBRD SCflLLflN & O'BRIEN •> «Bja929
HQ.586 003
tsm

*(«| Not to my knowledge*

*(f) I am not rware of any coda, all my dealings with the bank were dkectly
with J.D. Traynor."
~ "(3) i did net avail of any aarvice Involving irtah Intercontinental Bank Ltd.,
Amiana Securities Ltd.. Am (ana Investments Ltd., oFkent Ford Securities Ltd., *
I did not at any stage have loan and guarantee facMtles with Guinness &
Mahon (Ireland) Ltd., nor d d I have a loan at any time.*
*(B) I did not at any stage have toan and guarantee faeiittiee with any of the
banks Ksted In no. 8 nor d d I have a loan at any time."
*(61 I did not apply under the Exchange Control Acta for permission in relation
to my deposit with Guinness & Mahon. i was dealing dractty with the menagtng
director of Guinness Mahon, tratsnd's oldest Marehant Bank and In 10791 wouW
have assumed he would have taken care of aH legal requirements. At no-stags
dW J.D. Traynor raise any difficulties with me."
"(7), (8). I did not avail of any of theae services directly or indirectly.''
"9. I have no additional information or documw>.~. -aorta or correspondence in
relation to these matters".
Our client has instructed us In relation to a matter which, although not covered
by the questions raised by you It is fait should nevertheless ha disclosed and
accordingly states as follows:
"In November 1987 when I was stepping down aa Chief executive of the CRH
Group I was Informed by the lete Mr. J.O. Traynor, the then Chairman, that
would be paid a gift of £20,000 from a non-resident company
In the Group. He advised me that as the donor wae not Irish domiciled and the
property in the gift* was not Irish property, there was no Babittty to Irish gift tax.
On that bests no gift tax returns were lodged. I sm bringing this transaction to
your attention because it was initiated by the late J.D. Traynor and I believe that
the monies were received from an off-shors account during the period 1988 -
1981."
We shall revert to you in relation to arranging a data for examination under Oath.
Youra faithfully,
GERRARD. SCALLAN & O'BRIEN.
Appendix XV (25) Dr Michael Dargan
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Dr
Michael Dargan.

a) Facsimile of 21 February 1990 from JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

b) Letter of 22 February 1990from Guinness and Mahon to JD Traynor.

c) Guinness and Mahon credit application of 23 February 1990.

d) Letter of 15 March 1991 from Ansbacher Ltd to IIB.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Dr Michael Dargan.

a) Letter of 31 August 2001 from McCann Fitzgerald to Inspectors.

b) Letter of 3 October 2001 from McCann Fitzgerald to Inspectors.

c) Letter of 8 November 2001from McCann Fitzgerald to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (25) (1) (a)
 T«. 7 AS 144/7A.10A5
Facaimih*- (t 17035 42 FITZWILLIAM $QUA,
DUBLIN 2

i- A (".''J 1 Mtr.F TRANSMISSION

XSLi Guinness •«. Mrihot: r.t.d. 72064?

Attention i Mr. M. l.nnirpn- P?.?.®:. 2lat Fabruatv ! 990

O'Keeffo.
I'iom: Tr^ynr.r. Tot* I N». Pa go*
~ •— • (JLqcI. this sheet): .

Uertr M.irt. jc,

lifrewi th copy o! Ou»i I'SiUt^c-.

Also herewith is «.«n additional letter which l» required

isiflf.jvv 11.' i good standing of Miohaol Dargan.

confirm AnstH<':lier will place appropriate funds

^-"Separately with you uml do whatever signing will be needed.

T shall be an 1 lie oTfire until 7.30 p.m. at 763065.

lours sinvrj«*ty/

. !•>. Ir^ynor.
Sod

tdt/ajw
 V - .- .; • -..v _

22nd February 19^0

Mr~
42/ ^
Dubli^sjtj*

m "" 1
R e t ' - . - H E I G H T S S.A.
w .r-'^fftvr-!-: • """ "tf, •

Dear Mir . 'Traynor,

I refer io the above matter and your discussions with Martin
Lanigan-O.VKeeffe and confirm that we have issued to IPPA Bank
S.A. thi; Guarantee as requested.
I enclose**- copy-of the Counter Indemnity which we will require
Ansbacher'6V Company Limited to sign in respect of the Guarantee.

Yours sincerely,
for GOIHKSSS 6 MAHON LIMITED.

JOHN RYALL
ASSISTANT MANAGER - BANKING.
• •r^v^'Srv
• .•'.- . . . '

• - -A
,
sncc.^g;;y *jl
. • i
Appendix XV (25) (l)(c)
 f**, * *" / :

• * • • •

T —^CRED'IT "COMMrrf EE' AWClCA'T^bir

Unit: G.6 M. Dublin Minute No: Date: & *. (11 ^
NEW/RBMgWXg/ZMeRgAgg/RBBMCTZ0H/XMgKBMBOT: Credit Class: Satisfactory
BORROWER/OBLIGOR: Brugman Heights SA
AMOUNT: Guarantee - B.Fr. 1,875,000 plus Interest (c. IR£34,100)
PROPOSAL Gt PURPOSE OF FACILITY(S):
Guarantee issued in favour of IPPA Bank SA on behalf of Brugman Heights
SA. Part of £6m. facility being provided to Bjrugman Heights SA.
Source of Repayment, Repayment Programme & Final Maturity:
N/A 3 Years 22.2.1993
Bank's Income (including Return on Capital):
Fee £500 p.a. ROC -
o-^urity and Security Margin:
'v inter-indemnity from Ansbacher & Co. Ltd.

Other Conditions Precedent:

s..

Other Information:

BANK'S RISK EXPOSURE - Aggregate (inclusive of this proposal) to:

Customer Related Customer Total
Committed/Limit: B.Frl,875,000 — B.Fr.1,875,000
Balance: • ~ —
Country Risk:
Primary Risk: Limit: Country of Primary Risk:Belgium
Commt: Secondary Risk:Cayman Islands
" Drawn: Domicile: Belgium
~ • tor Risk: !
o^ctor:•• Limit: GM Business Sector:Property
Commt: CBofI Business Sector:710
Drawn: Risk Asset Weighting:0.5
Introduced by: J.D. Traynor Recommended by:J. Ryall
Decision:

Credit]Committee Chairman
Minute No: Minute No:

Dublin Board Date: GM&Co. Date:

/CC
 Ansbachcr Limited
A Mtmbtr of tht Hrnry Ansbachtr Holding, PLC Merchant Bankmt Gr

p , a Box M7, G,lnd

Please reply to: £»>"»»». Brash w«« India
Phoae
42 Fitzwilliam Square,
Dublin 2. («») 949-7946
(809) 9 4 W 2 6 7
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035

15th March, 1 991 .

Garrett Logan, Esq.,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange the following transfers:
IR£28,000 to Ulster Bank
O'Connell Street
Dublin
For Account No.20089128
in the name of M.J. Dargan.
IRE10,000 to Bank of Ireland
Dublin Airport
For Account No.20508442
in the name of M.J. Dargan.

Please debit the cost of each transfer to our Call Account

No. 02/01 087/815.
It would be appreciated if you could advise the Sterling
amount debited as soon as possibj^
Yours sincerely, ;* "'"'"•'one
t
•0 ^ „ * ft
I
-J
^ a ^ L u^•<"3
For ANSBAC.HSR LIMITED

/AJW
uU
2 Harbourmaster Place
, ,.,ternational Financial Services Centre
Dublin 1

Tel +353-1-829 0000

Fax +353-1-829 0010
email: postmaster@tnccannfitzgerald. ie
website: http: //www. mccannfitzgerald. ie
Dx 31 Dublin

our ref DJC\264087.6 your ref date 31 AugUSt 2001

The Inspectors
Office of the Inspectors
3 r d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin

Dr Michael J Dargan ^$ ^ ^!

Inspectors,

We refer to your letter to Dr Dargan of 1 August notifying him of an intended finding that
"Dr Dargan was a client of Ansbacher". As you surmise, this finding could clearly be
adverse to our client's interests and reputation. We have in our letter of 17 August already
advised you that Dr Dargan wishes to make submissions as to why no such finding should be
made. We do not believe that the Inspectors proposed finding is justified on the evidence
which is identified in your letter and we apprehend that there is a considerable risk that if
such a finding were made by the Inspectors in any report of theirs then inferences would be
drawn from it which would also be unjustified.

1. Not a Client

1.1 We do not know what criteria the Inspectors intend to apply for the purpose of
identifying a person as a client of the company. One generally speaks of a bank as having
customers rather than clients. The term client normally connotes a person who is receiving
professional services. Banking services are not generally so characterised and the Inspectors'
proposed characterisation of Dr Dargan as a client accordingly implies or will be taken to
intend to imply that he has received services from the company which are distinguishable
from characteristically banking services. The notice does not identify what these services
are thought to have been.

Ronar> Molony, Michael V. O'Mahony, Richard Rice, Fergus Armstrong. David Clarke, Gerald FitzGerald, Daire Hogan, Guy French, Henry Lappin. Michael S. Roche, Colin Keane.
William Earley, Robert Burke, Petria McDonnell, Timothy Bouchier-Hayes, Helen Collins, Gerald B. Sheedy, Mark Pearson. Michael O'Reilly. Lonan McDowell. Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke.
Michael O'Brien. Julian Conlon. Damian Collins. John Cronin. Vivienne Bradley. Catherine Deane, Paul Heffernan, Barbara Judge, Michael Kealey, Terence McCrann, Ulian Stephenson, ^
Muriel Walls. Roderick Bourke. Grace Smith, Ambrose loughlin. Niall Powderly, Kevin Kelly. Hilary Marren, Denise O'Connor, Eamonn O'Hanrahan, Roy Parker, Patricia Lawless.
Barry Devereux, Geraldine Hickey, Helen Kilroy, Judith Lawless, James Murphy, David Lydon, Vanessa FitzGerald, David Byers, Sean Barton, Hannah Carney, Colm Fanning,
Paul Lavery, Yvonne McNamara. Susan O'Halloran, Julie Quin, ,
Consultants: Max W. Abrahamson. Brian McLoghlin, Jane Marshall. Michael Ryan (FCA). Garrett Fennel!. O f Counsel (USA): William P. Clark.

B e l f a s t : North South Lego/ Alliance with L'Estrange & Brett, Arnott House, 12-16 fridge Street, Belfast ST/ /LS, Tel +44-28-9023 0426, Fax +44-28-9024 6396
Brussels: Avenue de Cortenbergh 89, Kortenbergfoan, 1000 Brussels, Tel +32-2-740 0370, Fox +32-2-740 0371.
L o n d o n ; St Michael's House, I George Yard, Lombard Street, London EC3V 9DF, Tel +44-20-7621 1000, Fax +44-20-7621 9000.
N e w V o r l c 156 West 56th Street, New York NY 10019, T e l + 1 - 2 / 2 - 2 3 7 1078, Fax+1-212-262 I2IS.
 1.2 We assume that the services which the Inspectors consider merit this usage are those
of the type which they indicated to Dr Dargan that they were inquiring into and which are
particularised in Appendix C of the Inspectors' notice to Dr Dargan dated 21 December 1999.
There is no evidence that Dr Dargan ever sought or received such services from the company.
He has denied it absolutely and it is fair to say that the Inspectors, who at the time they
interviewed him knew in detail of what his evidence would be, barely put to him the
possibility that he had received such services. They did not put to him at all any suggestion
that the documents identified in the Inspectors' notice of 1 August demonstrated that he had
done so. There is nothing in the documents that in anyway suggests that he received such
services. The mere having of an account with the company (even if Dr Dargan had had such)
/-v clearly would not demonstrate this while the transactions to which the documents relate did
not attract any liability to tax or, accordingly, suggest that any association which Dr Dargan
might have had with the company could have related to the evasion of taxes. We will submit
in section 2 below that the evidence comprised in the documents referred to could not justify
the Inspectors in concluding that Dr Dargan had any contractual or consensual arrangement
with the company. Those submissions will support the submission made here, although in
our view the submission here made does not require any further support.

1.3 We therefore submit that there is no evidence upon which the Inspectors could
reasonably conclude that Dr Dargan was a client of the Company as we understand that term.

1.4 If we misunderstand the criteria which the Inspectors' intend to use so as to

characterise a client of the company, we must ask that the Inspectors tell us of what their
criteria are and of whereabouts they have indicated to Dr Dargan that they have been
concerned to establish that such other criteria apply to him. In the same context, we must
also ask that the Inspectors tell us whether and if so how they propose to separately
characterise any persons whom they may be minded to find did receive services of the type
particularised in Appendix C. Having received that information we will be in a position to
make appropriate submissions to the Inspectors in the light of the criteria they actually attach
to the term client. It will be appreciated that without such information we could not readily
do so.

2. No Consensual Relationship

2.1 We do not believe that the evidence identified by the Inspectors could justify them in
concluding that Dr Dargan had any contractual or consensual relationship with the company.
The Inspectors' notice of 21 December 1999 did not concern itself with any relationships
with the company other than these particularised in the notice. On reviewing the transcript of
Dr Dargan's interview, we do not recognise any questions designed to establish the existence
of any other identifiable relationship which Dr Dargan might have had with the company or
any significance which the Inspectors regarded such relationships as having for the purpose
of their inquiries. If the Inspectors are concerned to identify persons who might have had
relationships with the company other than those of the type particularised in the Inspectors'
original notice, we would be grateful to know how the Inspectors define such relationships
and why they regard these as relevant to their inquiries. We would wish to try to address any
argument that Dr Dargan had such a relationship with the company.

2.2 Even in the absence of that clarification however, we submit that while the evidence
identified by the Inspectors might justify inquiry as to whether any consensual relationship
existed between Dr Dargan and the company (were such inquiry germane to the Inspectors'
work), there is no reliable evidence or , alternatively, it would be entirely against the weight
of the available evidence for the Inspectors to conclude that such a relationship existed.

2.3 The only evidence which it is suggested demonstrates any connection between Dr
Dargan's affairs and the business of the company consists of copy written material recently
obtained by Dr Dargan from third parties and produced by him to the Inspectors. Dr Dargan
has explained that he was not privy to the creation of the original of any of this material and
that he had not been aware of its existence until he obtained it in the way described. We are
aware of no evidence suggesting that he has been mistaken on either point. The documents
do not express Dr Dargan to have been a client or customer of the company and Dr Dargan
has explained to the Inspectors the transactions to which the papers appear to relate and
which did not involve the company in any way which would justify a finding that he was its
client or customer. There is no evidence from anyone actually privy to the creation of the
documents supporting any different view.

2.4 Treating of the facts in more detail - in respect of the Brugman guarantee, Dr Dargan
did not discuss or make any arrangements for the, provision of any security to Guinness &
Mahon and knew nothing about what it seems was Mr Traynor's agreement on behalf of the
company to provide a matching guarantee to Guinness & Mahon. The documents do not
make (and possibly carefully avoid) any assertion that Dr Dargan was associated with the
company or that the company held any funds to which he was entitled, while a bank
guarantee does not of course entail the holding of matching funds by the tendering bank.
Unless there be other evidence to support a different inference, the Inspectors cannot
justifiably reject Dr Dargan's evidence and must, on the contrary, accept the obvious
alternative - that the material reflects a private arrangement between Guinness & Mahon and
the company. It is entirely plausible that Mr Traynor was using what appears to have been
his authority in both Guinness & Mahon and in the company to provide the guarantee which
Dr Dargan had requested and to provide comfort to Guinness & Mahon - perhaps merely for
the record or perhaps for the purpose of conforming to regulatory-informed requirements
affecting Guinness & Mahon.

2.5 In respect of the transfer of the funds which were lodged with accounts in Bank of
Ireland and Ulster Bank and, again, in the absence of any evidence suggesting the contrary,
the Inspectors have no reason not to accept that these represented the proceeds of the sale of a
racehorse in the US and that the transfer of them from the US was probably arranged through
the company as the most convenient way of effecting the transfer. The passage of funds
through a bank does not entail the existence of any consensual arrangement between the bank
and the owner of the funds. Dr Dargan says he did not instruct the company (or IIB) for this
purpose and had not been aware that either had been involved. (It would not seem to matter
whether Dr Dargan did become so aware, for it is unlikely that at that time such involvement
would have been of significance to him even if he had come to know of it).

2.6 The Inspectors have not found any evidence suggesting that these explanations are
wrong or mistaken. They were certainly not challenged when Dr Dargan gave evidence.

2.7 Neither the two sets of documents nor the transactions to which they relate indicate
any link with one another, nor therefore does one serve to reinforce any arguement from the
other of there having been any different relationship between the company and Dr Dargan
than that evident from Dr Dargan's own evidence - namely, that he looked to Mr Traynor on
occasion to deal with matters of these kinds.

2.8 The preliminary text in the Inspector's current notice refers to the fact that Dr Dargan
has acknowledged that he has a poor memory. Many people do. There is nothing in Dr
Dargan's evidence which suggests that he is uncertain as to the evidence he has given or
which would justify the Inspector's discounting his evidence in favour of a contrary
hypothesis which has no independent support and of which, no one has any recollection.

3. Statutory Objects of the Investigation

3.1 At section 1 above we submitted that there was no evidence before the Inspectors on
the basis of which they could find that Dr Dargan was the company's client nor any evidence
or any satisfactory evidence that he was the company's customer. If, on review, the
Inspectors accept our submission that Dr Dargan ought not be identified as a client, or as
having had any other consensual relationship with the company in respect of which any
finding requires to be made by the Inspectors, the submission which follows may be treated
as otiose.

3.2 Otherwise however, and without prejudice to Dr Dargan taking other courses which
may be open to him in those circumstances, then we have to challenge the extent to which (if
at all) the Inspectors are properly concerned or entitled to make findings or report as to the
identities or other characteristics of individual clients or others dealing with the company.

3.3 Section 8 of the Companies Act 1990, under which the Inspectors have been
appointed, is applicable only in such circumstances as are described in that section and (we
believe it is clearly to be inferred) only for the purpose of reporting upon the matters
constituting those circumstances. These relate entirely to the conduct of the company itself
and of "persons connected with its formation or the management of its affairs".
Undoubtedly, in carrying out their functions, inspectors appointed under the section may need
to scrutinise the relationships and business had between a company and anybody dealing with
it. On the other hand, the section does not authorise inspectors appointed under it to
investigate or report upon such persons themselves unless those persons have been concerned
with the company's formation or the management of its affairs or except, perhaps, to such
extent as such persons may be so intimately involved in the company's own business as to
require such treatment.

3.4 In principle there seems no reason why the Inspectors in this case should have to
identify or otherwise report upon any persons unless they were concerned with the formation
or management of the company's affairs and there is nothing in the Inspectors' proposed
findings notified to Dr Dargan which suggests any such reason in his case.

3.5 Since in principle the relationship between a bank and its customers has always been
regarded at Common Law as confidential, clear legal authority and need ought be a
prerequisite to any disclosure relating to the existence or terms of such relationships in the
present case, even did the statute confer a discretion to inquire into or disclose the identity of
such persons. Furthermore, where rightly or wrongly this company is now notoriously
associated with the evasion of tax, the making or publication of any finding by the Inspectors
that any person was associated with such a company would inevitably imply for anyone
receiving the Inspectors' report that such a person also was or may have been involved in
such activity. Indeed the statements preliminary to the proposed finding relating to Dr
Dargan's prominent position in working life (as well as, incorrectly, to his having had an
account with the company) must be intended to invite the reader to form some connection
between those facts and whatever is to be found as to the company's business - the Inspectors
clearly do not consider that there is value or need to provide a simple list of people with
whose affairs the company has been found to have some connection. There is no evidence at
all which would justify the making of a finding in respect of Dr Dargan suggesting that he did
or might have sought to evade taxes. Particularly^ having regard to these circumstances, Dr
Dargan is entitled that his good name be protected having regard to his rights under Article
40.3 of the Constitution and that the Inspectors do not proceed to make findings outside of
the objects of section 8.

3.6 We are conscious that the Order made in these proceedings on 22 September 1999
appears to place a duty upon the Inspectors to "identify as far as possible all of the parties
who were either officers (including shadow directors) and agents of the Company clients of
the Company or who otherwise assisted in the carrying out of the business at the relevant
time ". In their context, the words which we have underlined appear intended to be construed
ejusdem generis with the words both before and following them, which relate to the activity
of the company as such and its management. It may have been submitted to the Court that
some or all of a class of persons characterised as clients of the company were involved to
such an extent in the affairs of the company as to be properly regarded as having been
concerned with its establishment or the management of its affairs. (We have not yet been
able to obtain access to the evidence presented to the Court which might assist in explaining
the form in which the Order was made). Clearly, Dr Dargan could not fall into such a
category. In the light of what is said above, we submit that it is incumbent upon the
Inspectors to consider the effect of the Order in the context of the statutory provisions under
which it was made. If the Inspectors reach the conclusion that it entitles them to make
findings in respect of Dr Dargan notwithstanding that they have not concluded that he was
connected with the company's formation or the management of its affairs, then we suggest
that in a matter of such consequence and having regard to the terms of the section, the
directions of the Court should be sought as to the extent to which the making or reporting of
such findings are permitted by the section or Order.

fully

David Clarke
McCann FitzGerald
Direct Dial: +353 1 607 1290
Email: david. clarke@mccannfitzgerald. ie
Appendix XV (25) (2) (b)
2 Harbourmaster Place
International Financial Services Centre
Dublin 1

Tel +353-1-829 0000

Fax +353-1-829 0010
McCann FitzGerald
S O L I C I T O R S
email: postmaster@mccannfitzgerald. ie
website: http://www.mccannfitzgerald.ie
Dx 31 Dublin

our ref DJCX286908.1 your ref date

3 October 2001

The Inspectors
Office of the Inspectors
3 r d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin

Dr Michael J Dargan

Inspectors

We refer to your letter of 1 August and to our letters of 17 and 31 August in connection with
the inquiries being conducted by you and a finding which you have proposed to make
affecting Dr Dargan. Your solicitor has orally confirmed receipt of our letter of 17 August
but we have had no written acknowledgement of receipt of it or any acknowledgement of our
letter of 31 August. We would be grateful to have a written acknowledgement from you of
receipt of both letters.

From your letter of 1 August (as amplified in a subsequent telephone conversation with your
solicitor), we understood that the Inspectors' immediate concern was to know whom of the
persons they were addressing wished to have an opportunity of replying to the findings which
the Inspectors were proposing to make and that the Inspectors would thereafter establish
arrangements and a timetable in respect of such proceedings. We understood that it was
intended that these arrangements would be decided upon and advised to us in early
September, when the Inspectors had an opportunity of meeting following the vacation period.

Our letter to the Inspectors of 31 August constitutes a reply to the proposed findings which is
provisional upon our being correct in our understanding, first as to the meaning which the
Inspectors are attributing to the term 'client', and then as to other matters which in logical
sequence may fall to be addressed if the Inspectors' interpretation of the term differs from
ours. As the Inspectors are aware, Dr Dargan is an elderly man. His recent health has not
been good and on his behalf we therefore share the concern expressed in the Inspectors' letter
Ronan Molony, Michael V. O'Mahony, Richard Rice, Fergus Armstrong, David Clarke, Gerald FitzGerald. Daire Hogan. Guy French, Henry Lappin, Michael S. Roche, Colin Keane,
William Earley. Robert Burke. Petria McDonnell. Timothy Bouchier-Hayes, Helen Collins, Gerald 8. Sheedy, Mark Pearson, Michael O'Reilly. Lonan McDowell, Patricia T, Rickard-Clarke,
Michael O'Brien, Julian Conlon, Damian Collins. JohnCronin. Vivienne Bradley, . Catherine Deane. PaulHeffeman, Barbara Judge, Michael Kealey, Terence McCrann, Uftan Stephenson,
Muriel Walls, Roderick Bourke, Grace Smith, Ambrose Loughlin, Niall Powderly, Kevin Kelly, Hilary Marren, Denise O'Connor, Eamonn O'Hanrahan, Roy Parker, Patricia Lawless,
Barry Devereux, Geraldine Hickey, Helen Kilroy, Judith Lawless, James Murphy, David Lydon, Vanessa FitiGerald, David Byers, Sean Barton, Hannah Carney, Colm Fanning.
Paul Lavery. Yvonne McNamara, Susan O'Halloran, Julie Quin.
Consultants: Max W. Abrahamson, Brian McLoghlin, Jane Marshall, Michael Ryan (FCA), Garrett Fennell. Of Counsel (USA):

Brussels: Avenue de Cortenbergh 89, Kortenberglaan, 1000 Brussels, Tel +32-2-740 0370. Fax +32-2-740 0371.
London:
Ntw York:
St. /Michael's House, I George Yard, Lombard Street. London EC3V 9DF, Tel +44-20-7621
IS6 West 56th Street, New York NY 10019, Tel +1-212-23 7 1078, Fox +1-212-262
William P. Clark.

Belfast: North South Legal Alliance with L'Estrange & Brett. Arnott House, 12-16 Bridge Street, Belfast ATI ILS. Tel+44-28-9023

1000, Fax +44-20-7621

1215.
0426. Fax +44-28-9024

9000.
6396
m
of 1 August that this matter should proceed with reasonable dispatch. If the assumptions
expressed in our letter of 31 August are incorrect therefore, we would be grateful to hear
from the Inspectors and would be grateful to know what arrangements and timetable they are
proposing to adopt in respect of their further proceedings if these may affect Dr Dargan.

Yours faithfully

David Clarke
McCann FitzGerald
Direct Dial: +353 1 607 1290
Email: david. clarke@mccannfitzgerald. ie
Appendix XV (25) (2) (c)
 2 Harbourmaster Place
International Financial Services Centre
Dublin 1

Tel +353-1-829 0000

Fax +353-1-829 0010
email: postmaster@mccannfitzgerald. ie
website: http://www.mccannfitzgerald. jiiU
ie f,'»
Dx 31 Dublin

y o u r re date
o u r r e f DJC\263036.1 ' 8 November 2001

The Inspectors
Office of the Inspectors
3 r d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin

Michael Dargan / Ansbacher Inspectors

Inspectors

We acknowledge receipt on 22 October of an undated letter from you, the envelope of which
is franked 19 October. We acknowledge also the 'definition of a client' attached to your
letter.

1. Not a Client
1.1 Our immediate purpose is to ensure that we have addressed the criteria which the
Inspectors have applied, we believe mistakenly, in forming their preliminary conclusion that
Dr Dargan has been a client of the company. Having regard to the definition now provided
and to paragraph 2 of the 'Inspectors' Preliminary Conclusions' sent to Dr Dargan with your
letter of 1 August, we understand these conclusions to be based upon a preliminary finding of
fact that Dr Dargan had 'an Ansbacher deposit' or 'an Ansbacher account'. If the Inspectors
were characterising Dr Dargan as being a client on the basis only that 'business was carried
out for' him by Ansbacher (a general criterion forming part of the definition provided), then
we would be grateful if the Inspectors would so advise us.

1.2 On the assumption that we are correct, then we should respectfully point the
Inspectors again to paragraphs 2.3 to 2.8 of our letter of 31 August. We also have to point in
particular to the following:

(a) The documentary evidence upon which the Inspectors have proposed to rely
does not demonstrate the existence of a 'deposit' or 'account' related to Dr Dargan;
the identified documents do not demonstrate the existence of any such account or

Ronan Molony, Michael V. O'Mahony. Richard Rice. Fergus Armstrong, David Clark,, Gerald FiaGeriid. Daire Hogan, Guy French. Henry Uppin, Michael S. Roche. Colin Keane,
William Earley, Robert Burke, Petria McDonnell. Timothy Bouchier-Hayes, Helen Collins. Gerald B Sheedy. Mark Pearson, Michael O'Reilly, Lonan McDowell, Patricia T. Rlckard-Clarit.
Michael O'Brien, Julian Conlon, Damian Collins, John Cronin, Vivienne Bradley, Catherine Deane Paul Heffernan. Barbara Judge, Michael Kealey, Terence McCrann. Ultan Stephenson.
Muriel Walls, Roderick Bourke, Grace Smith, Ambrose Loughlin, Niall Powderly. Kevin Kelly. Hilary Marren, Der ne O'Connor. Eamonn O'Hanrahan. Roy Parker. Patricia Lawless.
Barry Devereux, Geraldine Hickey. Helen Kilroy, Judith Lawless. James Murphy. David Lydon. Vjnessa FitzGerald. David Byers, Sean Barton, Hannah Carney, Colm Fanning.
Paul Lavery. Yvonne McNamara. Susan O'Halioran. Julie Quin.
Consultant): Max W. Abrahamson. Brian McLoghlin. Jane Marshall. Michael Ryan (FCA), Garrett Fennell. Of Counsel (USA): William P. Clark.
M
Belfast:
Brussels:
North South Legal Alliance with VEstrange 4 Brett Arnett House. 12-16 Bridge Street, Belfast BTI ILS, Tel +44-28-9023
Avenue de Cortenbergh 89, Kortenberglaan, 1000 Brussels, Tel+32-2-740 0370, Fax +32-2-740 0371.
0426. fax +44-28-9024 6396 W
London: St Michael's House, I George Yard, Lombard Street London EC3V 9DF, Tel +44-20-7621 1000, Fax +44-20-7621 9000.
N e w Y o r k : 156 West 56th Street New York NY 10019, Tel +1-212-237 I07S, Fox +1-212-262 12/5.
deposit and the terms of the preliminary conclusions do not indicate how the
Inspectors find them to do so.

(b) The documentary evidence indicate transactions which could justify the
Inspectors in forming a hypothesis that such a deposit or account might exist. Acting
reasonably however, the Inspectors could not conclude that such a hypothesis was
correct without having regard to the availability of other evidence which, if the
hypothesis were correct, ought be available to support it, (as well as, of course, any
evidence available which contradicts the hypothesis). If such hypothesis were correct,
one would expect other evidence supporting it to be available within the company or
Guinness & Mahon. The Inspectors do not appear to have found such evidence or to
have taken account of the implications of its absence; their preliminary conclusions do
not record anything in relation to their having sought such evidence or any reasons for
its absence.

(c) The Inspectors do not appear to have had regard to the evidence of Dr Dargan
which contradicts the existence of an account or deposit, nor do they appear to have
taken account of the absence of any evidence contradicting that which Dr Dargan
gave, (nor of the absence of any evidence contradicting Dr Dargan's evidence that
these explanations demonstrate that the documentary evidence does not disclose the
existence of a deposit or account). It is submitted that the Inspectors do not in fact
have any reason to discount Dr Dargan's evidence; their preliminary conclusions do
not disclose anything which does so - aside from the reference to Dr Dargan's
acknowledgement that he has a poor memory. The Inspectors' references to the
documentary evidence and their omission to describe anything of Dr Dargan's
evidence would unjustifiably suggest that the documentary evidence conclusively
establishes the existence of an account or deposit.

(d) The Inspectors' preliminary conclusions expressly rely upon Dr Dargan's

statement in evidence that he has a poor memory, but it is not evident how this has
assisted them in concluding that Dr Dargan had an account or deposit with the
company or was a client of the company. It is clear from Dr Dargan's evidence
(including what he said as to his memory) that he recollects a good deal about the
transactions which he was describing and there is no evidence to suggest that he is
mistaken in the account he has given of either of the transactions. Since the
transactions took place ten years previously and were not particularly important, the
extent of his recollection of details seems creditable and the fact that he was unable to
recall certain details of his conversation with Mr Traynor, for example, could not
justify the general discounting of the details he was able to provide about the
transactions, and a fortiori could not justify a conclusion that, despite his evidence, he
had an account or deposit with the company.

(e) Whatever may be the Inspectors' intention, when read in conjunction with the
Inspectors' expression of reliance upon the documentary evidence and their lack of
reference to the evidence Dr Dargan has actually given, the Inspectors' reference to
Dr Dargan's acknowledgement of a poor memory suggests that while Dr Dargan has
 given evidence, this evidence is patently wrong and the Inspectors' dismissal of it by
reason of 'poor memory' reads as if the reason expressed is a euphemism. We submit
that the Inspectors would be quite unjustified in weighing the available evidence in
the manner proposed, and there could be no justification for dismissing Dr Dargan's
evidence in the words expressed.

1.3 The above concerns are directed to the substance of the preliminary conclusions to the
manner in which they appear to have been reached, the manner in which this reasoning and
the conclusions are expressed and the inferences which are invited by this expression. It is
submitted that on each count the Inspectors ought revise and reverse their preliminary
conclusions.

2. Definition of Client
2.1 Since the Inspectors have not indicated that they are reaching or expressing any
general conclusion to qualify or explain the preliminary conclusions expressly referring to Dr
Dargan, we submit that the making of anyfinding by the Inspectors as to Dr Dargan's
identity on the basis that he is a client of the company cannot serve any useful or legitimate
purpose when the category of client is defined in the way now communicated by the
Inspectors. The only likely affect of making and reporting such findings is to imply that there
is reason for supposing that the people named have or may have availed of services provided
by the company to assist in the avoidance of tax. Even were it in principle appropriate for the
Inspectors to make or report such conclusions, there would be no justification for doing so in
respect of Dr Dargan.

2.2 The inappropriateness of forming or expressing such a conclusion about such a

category of people and about Dr Dargan in particular i§ made more apparent by the fact that
the Inspectors did not, on the face of their communications, carry out inquiries directed to
identifying such an inconsequential category of people and it would give cause to doubt the
objectivity and purpose of the Inspectors and be procedurally unfair for them to express this
as having been a subject of their investigation.

2.3 We therefore submit that the Inspectors ought not proceed on such a basis.

3. Statutory Objects of the Investigation

3.1 The Inspectors' proposal for the definition of a client of the company accentuates the
importance of their addressing the submissions made at section 3 of our letter of 31 August.

4. Generally
4.1 The advantage of an oral hearing ought be to enable the Inspectors and Dr Dargan to
clarify the matters which are actually persuading the Inspectors towards their preliminary
conclusions so that these can be addressed. Since the Inspectors are declining to 'enter into
any debate' in respect of their preliminary conclusions, we understand them to be
communicating that they are not prepared to do more than listen to what is said to them. We
agree that no useful purpose would be served by this. For the reasons expressed at 1.3 above,
we respectfully suggest that such while 'debate' is not necessary, clarification is still
required.
4.2 We request that the Inspectors advise us of the steps they propose to take next in
respect of Dr Dargan, that is to say, first, whether and, if so, in what form they propose to
make any finding that he is a 'client' of the company and second , as to whether they propose
to apply to the court for directions in the circumstances and for the purposes expressed in
section 3 of our letter of 31 August. We also request to know what submission they propose
to make to the court as to the publication of any part of their report relating to Dr Dargan.

Yours sincerely

David Clarke
McCann FitzGerald
Direct Dial: +353 1 607 1290
Email: david.clarke@mccannfitzgerald.ie
Appendix XV (26) Mr Brian Dennis
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Brian Dennis.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Brian Dennis dated 28 March 2000.

b) Statement of Mr Brian Dennis of 22 February 2000.

c) Letter of 11 March 1971 from Bank of Ireland to Mr Brian Dennis.

d) Extract from Report of Guinness and Mahon to Central Bank of 30 April

1978.

e) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 31 August 1978 - P O'Dwyer.

f) Bank of Ireland cheque of 4 April 1993 in favour of JD Traynor.

g) Letter of 10 February 2000 to GMCT from Brian Dennis.

h) Letter of 24 December 1986 from Michael Pender to BA Ursell.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Brian Dennis.

a) Letter of 10 October 2001 from O'Higgins Solicitors to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (26) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. BRIAN DENNIS

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 28TH MARCH 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. BRIAN DENNIS

Represented by: MR. JAMES F. 0'HIGGINS

JAMES F. 0'HIGGINS & CO

SOLICITORS

10 EASTMORELAND PLACE

DUBLIN 4
 I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION

MR. B. DENNIS MS. MACKEY

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

 1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY

2 28TH MARCH 2000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Will we start our

5 interview Mr. Dennis? My

6 name is Declan Costello and on my right Ms. Mackey.

7 We are the Inspectors, two of the Inspectors, who

8 have been appointed by The High Court.

9 MR. DENNIS: Yes.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain, as I do

11 to other people who come

12 before us such as you, that this is not a Court. It

13 is not a Tribunal. It is an interview. It is an

14 interview under oath and we will ask you to take the

15 oath in a moment.

16

17 I should explain to you that if at any time in the

18 course of the interview you wish to consult your

19 solicitor to stop and consult, please let me know

20 and I will stop.

21

22 Similarly, if Mr. O'Higgins wishes us to stop so

23 that he can consult with you he can tell us so and

24 we will stop and you can then consult. You are free

25 to consult your solicitor at any time.

26 MR. DENNIS: Yes.

27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I will ask now Ms. Cummins

28 now to administer the oath

29 to you.

4
 1 MR. BRIAN DENNIS, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS

2 FOLLOWS

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Dennis, we obtained a

5 statement from you but we

6 have not obtained any documents from you. Are you

7 in a position to make documents available to us as

8 required in our letter to you?

9 A. I am not. There were never any documentary, any

10 correspondance, any contact, whatsoever between

11 myself and the Guinness & Mahon Cayman other than

12 through Mr. Des Traynor.

13 2 Q. Is your position then, Mr. Dennis, that you have no

14 correspondance or documents from Mr. Traynor in your

15 possession?

16 A. That is correct.

17 3 Q. Yes. Very well then. I am going to ask now

18 Ms. Mackey to ask you some questions?

19 A. Yes. On that note, following the receipt of your

20 letter I did send a letter to Guinness & Mahon

21 in Cayman Trust by registered post, which I can give

22 you a copy of now. I have received no reply to this

23 letter (Same Handed).

24 4 Q. Yes.

25

26

27

28

29

5
 1 MR. BRIAN DENNIS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY

2 MS. MACKEY

4 5 Q. MS. MACKEY: Very good. Mr. Dennis,

5 just to get, for the

6 record, a little background about yourself first.

7 Can you tell me a little about your own career? You

8 are a businessman I understand. You have a number

9 of companies?

10 A. I will start at the end and say that I will be 70 in

11 another couple of months.

12 6 Q. Yes?

13 A. I am officially retired since the age of 65 although

14 I do still participate to a limited degree in my

15 business.

16 7 Q. Yes. Your business is what?

17 A. I am in the motor business.

18 8 Q. Yes?

19 A. We are also in businesses which are allied to the

20 motor business i.e. we were in car rental.

21 9 Q. Yes?

22 A. And a finance company.

23 10 Q. Yes?

24 A. And property...(INTERJECTION).

25 11 Q. Can you tell me the name of the car rental and

26 finance company?

27 A. Dennis Car Rentals.

28 12 Q. Dennis Car Rentals?

29 A. Yes.

6
 1 13 Q. And the finance company?

2 A. Phoenix Finance Trust.

3 14 Q. Yes. Can you give me the name of your other

4 companies?

5 A. Kilcarne Estates.

6 15 Q. Kilcarne Estates?

7 A. Limited.

8 16 Q. Yes?

9 A. Exchange Finance Limited.

10 17 Q. Yes?

11 A. New Street Service Station Limited.

12 18 Q. Yes?

13 A. Mark Dennis Opel Limited.

14 19 Q. Yes?

15 A. HB Dennis Motors Limited.

16 20 Q. Yes?

17 A. And HB Motors Fairview Limited.

18 21 Q. Yes. All of these are either companies in the motor

19 business or connected with it in some way?

20 A. Yes.

21 22 Q. Do...(INTERJECTION)?

22 A. They are part of the HB Dennis Motor Group.

23 23 Q. It is... (INTERJECTION)?

24 A. Which would encompass them all.

25 24 Q. It encompasses all of these?

26 A. Yes.

27 25 Q. Right. Could you tell me in respect of

28 Phoenix Finance Trust, what exactly is that?

29 A. Well, we disposed of that business in 1981.

7
 1 26 Q. Yes. What was it?

2 A. It was a credit installment business, finance

3 company.

4 27 Q. When you say you disposed of it, you sold it?

5 A. We sold it to Beneficial Trust Of America Limited,

6 who became Anglo Irish Bank.

7 28 Q. Right. Kilcarne Estates?

8 A. It is a property holding company.

9 29 Q. Is that still in existence?

10 A. It is.

11 30 Q. Exchange Finance Limited?

12 A. It is a non-trading company. Well, yes, almost

13 non-trading.

14 31 Q. Right. What was its trading?

15 A. It was a finance company we started after we

16 disposed of Phoenix Finance Trust but events over

17 took it and it is no longer economic to run it.

18 32 Q. Right?

19 A. But it is still a company.

20 33 Q. Right. When you say "events over took it" what

21 happened to it?

22 A. The major institutions, we couldn't compete with

23 them.

24 34 Q. Right?

25 A. The Allied Irish Finance and all the others,

26 Woodchester.

27 35 Q. Yes. Fine. That is grand for background. Thank

28 you very much Mr. Dennis. You gave us a statement

29 here and you replied to the questions we had asked

8
 1 you in our letter to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 36 Q. If I can just go through it. Do you have a copy of

4 your own statement and replies there?

5 A. I do indeed, yes.

6 37 Q. If we might just have a look at those now?

7 A. Yes.

8 38 Q. Looking first at the statement, (Exhibit 1) in the

9 second paragraph there you tell us about a trust

10 formed through The Bank Of Ireland Trustee

11 Department.

12 A. Yes.

13 39 Q. Into which you put certain assets. Then you say:

14 "Following a subsequent discussion with

Des Traynor, Mr. PJ O'Connor and
15 Brian Bruen which I think was in 1972 I
decided to form a second one, into
16 which I put other assets which I
required for a specific family
17 purpose."

18

19 A. Yes.

20 40 Q. I want to ask you a little bit about that

21 Mr. Dennis. First of all, how did you first come in

22 contact with Mr. Des Traynor?

23 A. Mr. Traynor would have been a friend for

24 30/35 years.

25 41 Q. Right.

26 A. He also was my next door neighbour but one.

27 42 Q. Right. You knew him socially?

28 A. Yes.

29 43 Q. Yes. This particular trust arose following a

9
 1 discussion with him. Can you tell us about that

2 discussion, the context of it?

3 A. Mr. Traynor was an advisor and confidante and I

4 told him of the trust which I had set up with

5 The Bank Of Ireland.

6 44 Q. Yes?

7 A. And in the course of the financial family planning

8 he made a suggestion to me that if I ever wanted to

9 form a second trust, which I had in mind actually.

10 It would be for a shorter term.

11 45 Q. Yes?

12 A. Rather than the long-term permanent trust, which

13 this one was.

14 46 Q. Yes?

15 A. That he could always -- we could discuss it.

16 47 Q. Right?

17 A. So, we duly did that. It was shortly after it. It

18 was probably the following -- it was the following

19 year.

20 48 Q. Yes. He said to you that if you wished to form a

21 second trust he would be open to discussing it with

22 you?

23 A. Correct.

24 49 Q. You subsequently then met and discussed?

25 A. Correct.

26 50 Q. Such a possibility with him?

27 A. Correct.

28 51 Q. Can you just tell me about the conversation you had

29 on that occasion? What did you indicate to him that

10
 1 you wished to do?

2 A. Well, I wished to provide for a specific family

3 situation, which I thought would eventually arise

4 and which eventually.

5 52 Q. Sorry, can I just ask you what that was Mr. Dennis?

6 A. The marriage of my sons.

7 53 Q. Right. You wished to provide for the marriage of

8 your sons?

9 A. Correct.

10 54 Q. Yes?

11 A. And that dully arrived between 1981 and 1986.

12 55 Q. Right. Before...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. Yes. I do state at one stage here that I don't

14 recall the dates. This is in the other but I can

15 now say that the dates were between -- on the second

16 page of Replies to Appendix C, I say:

17 "I do not recall the dates"

18

19 but the dates were 1981 to 1986. You see "D" under

20 "Appendix C".

21 56 Q. Yes:

22 "I expressed wishes on a number of

occasions that capital be disbursed."
23

24 That is the disbursing of the capital. However,

25 before we get onto that?

26 A. Yes, sorry. I am just making the point.

27 57 Q. Yes?

28 A. That I say don't recall the dates.

29 58 Q. Yes, thank you?

11
 1 A. But they are them.

2 59 Q. Yes. However, getting back to this. In 1972 any

3 way was when this matter was first muted?

4 A. Yes.

5 60 Q. You told Mr. Traynor that you wished to provide for

6 the marriage of your sons?

7 A. Yes.

8 61 Q. What did Mr. Traynor suggest then to you?

9 A. Well, I had after tax income at the time.

10 62 Q. Yes?

11 A. Which I wanted to set aside for them.

12 63 Q. Yes?

13 A. So, he said the most tax effective way was to avail

14 of a trust, another trust, which he could arrange

15 for me in the Cayman Islands.

16 64 Q. He told you, in fact, that it would be in

17 the Cayman Islands, did he?

18 A. He did.

19 65 Q. At that time?

20 A. Yes.

21 66 Q. Right. Did he tell you that it would be a

22 discretionary trust?

23 A. Yes.

24 67 Q. Right. What exactly did he tell you about that?

25 How did he explain this trust to you?

26 A. Well, I was familiar with a discretionary trust

27 having formed one -- having had one formed the

28 previous year.

29 68 Q. Right?

12
 1 A. And I had done a discretionary letter for

2 The Bank Of Ireland.

3 69 Q. Yes?

4 A. And he gave me I recall a draft letter, a trust type

5 letter and to be...(INTERJECTION).

6 70 Q. Yes. You say "a trust type letter", is this a

7 Trust Deed?

8 A. It was a -- no, it wasn't a Deed. It was just a

9 sort of a letter between that letter and the letter

10 I already had done for The Bank Of Ireland. Between

11 the two of them I did another letter which was

12 suitable for this purposes.

13 71 Q. Do you have a copy of the letter that you did?

14 A. I don't, no.

15 72 Q. Can you tell me what the contents of that letter

16 were as far as you can remember it, or the gist of

17 it?

18 A. It is 28 years ago. I find it difficult to -- I

19 have no records.

20 73 Q. Obviously I am not looking for word for word.

21 However, what was the gist of that letter? Was it

22 indicating...(INTERJECTION)?

23 A. That on the marriage of my sons that the trust would

24 be divided roughly three ways. Something of that

25 nature.

26 74 Q. This was a letter stating what you wanted to have

27 done with the trust. It was not a Trust Deed?

28 A. The letter then was...(INTERJECTION).

29 75 Q. Was this a Letter Of Wishes?

13
 1 A. Yes, exactly.

2 76 Q. Right?

3 A. Yes.

4 77 Q. It indicated your wishes for what would be done with

5 the trust fund, is that right?

6 A. That is right, in the event of my demise.

7 78 Q. In the event of your demise?

8 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).

9 79 Q. Perhaps, you had better...(INTERJECTION)?

10 A. Well, if I was still alive it wouldn't arise, would

11 it?

12 80 Q. I am asking you Mr. Dennis?

13 A. Yes, what I wished the trust -- to happen to the

14 trust.

15 81 Q. Right. Before we get on to what you wished to

16 happen to the trust, just let us get back to the

17 conversation with Mr. Traynor. He said to you the

18 most tax effective way to do what you wished to do,

19 provide for the marriage of your sons, would be to

20 set up a trust in the Cayman Islands?

21 A. Yes.

22 82 Q. I am sure you were not anticipating that you would

23 not still be alive at the marriage of your sons?

24 A. No.

25 83 Q. This was something you were providing for a specific

26 event that was going to happen whether you were

27 alive or not, is that not correct?

28 A. Correct.

29 84 Q. What did he do or what did he tell you had to be

14
 1 done in order to actually set up this trust?

2 A. Well, I can't recall exactly but I definitely had

3 the letter of discretion. I am sure there were some

4 other documents that I signed at the time but I

5 don't recall what they were now.

6 85 Q. Do you recollect signing documents?

7 A. I do, and I would have read them first. So, they

8 wouldn't have been...(INTERJECTION).

9 86 Q. Who were the beneficiaries of this trust? This was

10 a discretionary trust, is that not correct?

11 A. That would be right, yes.

12 87 Q. Yes. Who were...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. My three sons.

14 88 Q. Your three sons?

15 A. Yes.

16 89 Q. Anybody else?

17 A. I can't recall that now at this stage. I might have

18 included my late wife in it but I can't just recall.

19 90 Q. Do you recollect who the trustee were to be?

20 A. No.

21 91 Q. You do not?

22 A. No.

23 92 Q. Did Mr. Traynor tell you?

24 A. I -- that may -- I don't know because was the trust

25 itself not the trustee as it were?

26 93 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?

27 A. If it was Cayman Island Trust?

28 94 Q. Did he tell you that it was Guinness Mahon Cayman

29 Trust that would be the trustee? Did he mention the

15
 1 name Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust to you?

2 A. Yes, definitely.

3 95 Q. He did?

4 A. Yes. That was...(INTERJECTION).

5 96 Q. He said that this would be where the trust would be

6 created, is that right?

7 A. Yes, absolutely, yes.

8 97 Q. Did he tell you that you would not be the Settlor

9 but that the Settlor would be someone in the

10 Cayman Islands?

11 A. No.

12 98 Q. Such as an accountant employed by Guinness Mahon

13 Cayman Trust or someone like that?

14 A. I never heard of any names in the Cayman other than

15 Mr. Traynor.

16 99 Q. Other than Mr. Traynor?

17 A. Yes .

18 100 Q. How did you transfer the trust assets to the trust?

19 What did he tell you had to be done?

20 A. Well, that I don't recall. I either gave him a

21 cheque, or a draft, or some financial instrument of

22 that nature. It was either one or the other. I

23 don't -- yes, I think that would have -- was done.

24 I may have transferred funds which is always the

25 same thing at the end of the day.

26 101 Q. Transferred in what way? From your bank here?

27 A. Yes .

28 102 Q. Directly or through Mr. Traynor?

29 A. Through Mr. Traynor.

 1 103 Q. To whom would you have transferred them?

2 A. Whoever he told me to make the cheque out to.

3 104 Q. Who was that?

4 A. Well, I don't recall at this stage.

5 105 Q. Did he tell you that there would be a company who

6 would be looking after the trust assets?

7 A. Absolutely, and that...(INTERJECTION).

8 106 Q. However, what...(INTERJECTION)?

9 A. Sorry.

10 107 Q. What was the name of that company?

11 A. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust.

12 108 Q. He did not mention any other company that

13 would...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. Not at that time, no.

15 109 Q. Did he...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. But I do...(INTERJECTION).

17 110 Q. Did he later?

18 A. I don't recall that but there was a management fee

19 every year.

20 111 Q. Yes?

21 A. For the trust.

22 112 Q. Right. Who was that payable to?

23 A. And there were also some minor charges as well. I

24 don't recall what they were but miscellaneous type

25 charges.

26 113 Q. Who was the management fee payable to?

27 A. It was deducted out of the capital.

28 114 Q. At source?

29 A. Correct. The only time I paid fees I recall was at

17
 1 the very beginning when it was set up.

2 115 Q. Right.

3 A. And subsequent to that it was deducted from the

4 capital, the fund.

5 116 Q. Did Mr. Traynor give you statements from time to

6 time of the way the fund was developing?

7 A. No. I got -- yes, I did get statements when I asked

8 for them but I didn't ask for them for two or three

9 years because...(INTERJECTION).

10 117 Q. Would you ask, Mr. Traynor?

11 A. Just Mr. Traynor, yes.

12 118 Q. Did he give you written statements then?

13 A. Because it was a growth fund I wasn't looking for

14 any income from the fund.

15 119 Q. Yes?

16 A. Or I didn't want a fund to have an income. I just

17 wanted the fund to be a growth fund.

18 120 Q. Did he give you statements?

19 A. He gave me statements. About two or three years

20 later I asked "How was the trust preforming?"

21 121 Q. Yes?

22 A. And he said, "I will get you a statement," and he

23 got me a statement.

24 122 Q. Right. What form was that statement? Do you have

25 copies of any of these statements now?

26 A. I did in those days but I am afraid I don't have

27 them any more.

28 123 Q. What happened to them?

29 A. I would have shredded them.

18
 1 124 Q. When would you have done that?

2 A. Well, the trust was wound up in 1986 or 1987 and it

3 would be normal for me to keep documents of

4 something that has gone dormant, or no longer has

5 any activity, for maybe five or six years.

6 125 Q. Right. You shredded them in the normal course after

7 that?

8 A. Yes, after five or six years.

9 126 Q. Yes. Can you remember the form in which these

10 statements appeared? Were they like original bank

11 statements ?

12 A. No. It was either a blank piece of paper which

13 showed the capital value on one side and then the

14 deductions on the other, which were the deductions I

15 have mentioned for the management fees.

16 127 Q. Yes. Did it show interest?

17 A. No.

18 128 Q. No?

19 A. It was a growth fund. In other words my

20 instructions to Traynor at the beginning was that I

21 would wish it to be a fund where they would look for

22 capital growth because, as I said, there wasn't an

23 income. I didn't put it aside for an income. I put

24 it aside to provide for the purposes I have

25 mentioned.

26 129 Q. Are you saying there was never any interest on the

27 account?

28 A. Well, Mr. Traynor managed the fund.

29 130 Q. Yes?

19
 1 A. Or had it managed in the Cayman.

2 131 Q. Yes. However...(INTERJECTION)?

3 A. And I don't know what they invested in it.

4 132 Q. Are you telling me, is your evidence now on oath,

5 that you do not know whether any interest ever

6 accrued on that fund or not?

7 A. I don't know whether it did or not.

8 133 Q. Yes?

9 A. He may have invested it on deposit or he may have

10 had it in bonds. He told me it was a beneficial tax

11 regime in Cayman.

12 134 Q. Did you over the years, between 1972 and the time

13 the trust was wound up, add to the trust funds at

14 any time?

15 A. No.

16 135 Q. You never did?

17 A. No.

18 136 Q. Moving on, again looking at your replies, to our

19 Appendix C there. Moving on to the heading over

20 Question No. 2:

21 "The use of deposits maintained by

Irish residents with the company"?
22

23 A. Can I just go back here to the my statement again

24 for a moment.

25 137 Q. Yes?

26 A. To refer to it.

27 138 Q. Yes?

28 A. Mr. Traynor did tell me at one stage, and I don't

29 recall when it was, that he was changing that trust

20
 1 to the Channel Islands.

2 139 Q. Yes. You mentioned that in your statement?

3 A. Yes, and it had made no difference. So, I didn't --

4 that didn't mean anything to me then.

5 140 Q. Yes. I will come to that later?

6 A. Sorry.

7 141 Q. However... (INTERJECTION)?

8 A. I thought you were passing on.

9 142 Q. No?

10 A. Yes.

11 143 Q. However, at the moment what I want to ask you about

12 is in relation to the use of Cayman deposits, and in

13 particular I want to refer you to Question 4 in our

14 letter, which you have answered here in the same way

15 as you answered two, by saying you did not avail of

16 this service?

17 A. What page on your letter?

18 144 Q. Page 12 in our letter. I will just read it out to

19 you here:"

20 "Another service apparently offered by

the Company in relation to deposits
21 maintained with it by Irish residents
was as follows -
22
Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Ltd
23 provided loan and guarantee facilities
to Irish residents or to bodies
24 corporate which they controlled or in
which they had an interest secured by
25 cash deposits with the Company. It
appears to have been an important
26 feature of this service that this
security was not referred to in the
27 loan agreement."

28

29 Then you are asked if you availed of such a service,

21
 1 to give dates, and which you did so etc. etc. Your

2 reply to that question was that you did not avail of

3 this service, is that correct?

4 A. That is correct, yes.

5 145 Q. That neither directly nor indirectly were your

6 deposits used to back any loan which you, or

7 any company connected with you, obtained from

8 Guinness & Mahon, is that correct?

9 A. No, because -- that is not correct.

10 146 Q. Right?

11 A. Because when the trust was set up originally.

12 147 Q. Yes?

13 A. Mr. Traynor told me.

14 148 Q. Yes?

15 A. That if I ever wished to have a letter of guarantee

16 or letter of comfort from the Cayman.

17 149 Q. Yes?

18 A. If I wanted funds in a hurry for instance or

19 something of that nature, that he could arrange

20 that.

21 150 Q. Right. Did he?

22 A. Well, that would have been an internal matter

23 between The Guinness & Mahon Group, which I wouldn't

24 be familiar with.

25 151 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

26 A. Can I just go on from that point?

27 152 Q. Yes?

28 A. I did substantial business with Guinness & Mahon in

29 Dublin and without exception any borrowings or any

22
 1 funds which they made available to me were

2 guaranteed firstly, by the joint and several

3 guarantee of my late wife and myself.

4 153 Q. Yes?

5 A. It followed on with a floating charge over the

6 assets of whatever particular company it was. There

7 were debentures taken out.

8 154 Q. Yes?

9 A. They were mortgages taken out on companies.

10 155 Q. Right. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

11 A. And...(INTERJECTION).

12 156 Q. Leaving aside all of that Mr. Dennis, are you aware

13 whether any of your loans were, in fact, backed by

14 your deposit in the Cayman Islands?

15 A. I am not aware of whether within Guinness & Mahon

16 they did that.

17 157 Q. You are not aware?

18 A. I am not aware.

19 158 Q. Could we have page 32 there, please? I want to ask

20 you to look at a document, Mr. Dennis, please

21 (Exhibit 2) (Same Handed)?

22 A. Thank you.

23 159 Q. This is an extract from a document, a report,

24 provided by Guinness & Mahon to The Central Bank.

25 If you look at it there you will see that they

26 describe it as:

27 "Major loans backed by deposits held

in Cayman/Guernsey trust companies."
28

29 Down at number 12 there you will see:

23
 "HB Dennis Limited - £113,648"
2

3 160 Q. Have we the right one Mary, page 32?

4 A. Yes, I see that.

5 161 Q. You will see in the next column:

6 "Deposit Cayman..."

8 And then it gives the sum that is held on deposit in

9 the Cayman Islands?

10 A. I see that, yes.

11 162 Q. This document indicates that a loan given to your

12 company HB Dennis Limited in 1978 was backed by your

13 deposit in the Cayman Islands?

14 A. That is what it says, yes.

15 163 Q. Do you accept that?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 164 Q. Very good. Thank you.

18 165 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you would just hand

19 back the paper. If you

20 want a copy of it we will give you a copy but we

21 would prefer to have the other names taken off the

22 list?

23 A. Off quite, yes (Same Handed).

24 166 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes?

25 A. Could I just see that for a second, the date again

26 please? (Same Handed) thank you.

27 167 Q. Can I pass you another document Mr. Dennis please?

28 This is at page 24 (Exhibit 3)(Same Handed)?

29 A. Yes.

24
 1 168 Q. Again, this is internal document of Guinness & Mahon

2 in Ireland. It is headed:

3 "New facilities sanctioned during

August 197 8."
4

5 At number three down you will see:

6 "Phoenix Finance Trust."

8 The "Pho" is just missing there in Phoenix. Then:

9 "...£100,000..."

10

11 And then beside that we have the legend:

12 "...suitable secured."

13

14 Do you see that?

15 A. I do, yes.

16 169 Q. I do not know if you are familiar with the term

17 "suitably secured" as used by Guinness & Mahon. You

18 may have heard references to it in the media

19 recently. However, what has it been stated

20 by Guinness & Mahon officers during the

21 Moriarty Tribunal to mean is a loan which is

22 secured on a deposit in one of its off shore

23 subsidiaries. Here we have a loan given to

24 Phoenix Finance Trust of £100,000 described as

25 suitably secured?

26 A. I see that, yes.

27 170 Q. Yes. Do you recollect that loan in 1978?

28 A. I don't. I am afraid not. It is, as I said earlier

29 on, 22 years ago. I can't recall that.

25
 1 171 Q. Right?

2 A. Guinness & Mahon did provide facilities for

3 Phoenix Finance Trust.

4 172 Q. Yes?

5 A. And they advised me that in the long-term we

6 wouldn't be able to keep that company going because

7 it was getting too big and we didn't have access to

8 deposit funds.

9 173 Q. Yes?

10 A. So, they agreed that they would keep the company

11 going. In other words they would provide funds.

12 174 Q. Yes?

13 A. And then we could dispose of it, which is what I

14 explained earlier on had happened in 1981.

15 175 Q. Yes. Again, do you accept that according to

16 Guinness & Mahon this loan to Phoenix Finance was

17 described as "suitably secured". In other words

18 secured upon a cash deposit in either the Cayman

19 Islands or the Channel Islands?

20 MR. 0'HIGGINS: Could you just hold there

21 a moment for that?

22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.

23 A. I would be quite certain that that loan would have

24 been secured, as I said earlier on, by the joint and

25 several guarantees of my wife and myself, coupled

26 with the floating charge, which I have mentioned.

27 176 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes?

28 A. But whether within Cayman, Mr. Traynor arranged to

29 take a charge, I can't say.

26
 1 177 Q. That would appear to indicate that he did any way?

2 A. But... (INTERJECTION) .

3 178 Q. Given that he has told you that you could if you

4 wished have a letter of comfort?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 179 Q. Or a letter of...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. Yes, he did tell me that.

8 180 Q. Then it is likely. We have seen the other case

9 already where the previous loan I showed you was

10 described definitely as backed on a Cayman deposit,

11 which it gave the amount for?

12 A. Yes.

13 181 Q. So it is likely that...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. If Mr. Traynor did that like, as I say, that was an

15 internal working in Guinness & Mahon.

16 182 Q. However, when he said to you that you could do this

17 if you wished did he indicate to you that he would

18 ask you on each occasion or that this might be

19 something that would happen subsequently?

20 A. I really can't recollect.

21 183 Q. I cannot recollect that?

22 A. That far back.

23 184 Q. Very good. Now...(INTERJECTION)?

24 A. I don't think I made any request. As I said the

25 number of guarantees and the number of cross

26 guarantees between especially Kilcarne Estates.

27 185 Q. Yes?

28 A. Which was the property holding companies, were the

29 main assets where.

27
 2 A. And the personal guarantees, and debentures, and the

3 mortgages, and I might add also that these charges,

4 possibly including that one, would have been

5 registered in Stubbs Gazette Magazine, which comes

6 out each week.

7 187 Q. Yes?

8 A. And I recall seeing them in The Irish Trade

9 Protection Association Magazine, which also comes

10 out each week.

11 188 Q. Yes?

12 A. And charges against limited companies. I saw them

13 quite frequently. So, Guinness & Mahon took all

14 that...(INTERJECTION).

15 189 Q. Yes?

16 A. Those guarantees.

17 190 Q. Very good. Getting back to your statement

18 Mr. Dennis?

19 A. Yes.

20 191 Q. You tell us that the specific family purpose

21 eventually matured. In other words, your sons were

22 married?

23 A. Yes.

24 192 Q. What happened the trust funds at that point?

25 A. Well, I asked Mr. Traynor to disburse or to allocate

26 some of the funds for those purposes.

27 193 Q. Some of the funds?

28 A. Yes.

29 194 Q. Did you know at that stage the state of the fund?

28
 1 A. I would have known, yes.

2 195 Q. Yes. Had you had a statement from Mr. Traynor

3 around that time?

4 A. Well, I would have had a statement, yes.

5 196 Q. Right. How was this allocation made?

6 A. Well, there was only two contacts. On one side was

7 Mr. Traynor.

8 197 Q. Yes?

9 A. I never met anybody else whatsoever.

10 198 Q. Yes?

11 A. Or had any conversations or correspondence, as I

12 have said.

13 199 Q. Yes?

14 A. On the other side it was myself.

15 200 Q. Right. So what happened?

16 A. It was between the two of us.

17 201 Q. Yes?

18 A. That was the chain.

19 202 Q. Yes. What happened when you wished to have these

20 funds for your sons?

21 A. Well, I would tell Mr. Traynor what I wanted to do.

22 203 Q. Yes?

23 A. And he would arrange it.

24 204 Q. How? How would he arrange it? What would he do?

25 A. Well, he would transfer funds, or give me a cheque

26 made out to my son, or give me a cheque perhaps made

27 out to me to pass on, something of that nature.

28 205 Q. He would give you a cheque and this

29 cheque...(INTERJECTION)?

29
 1 A. Pardon?

2 206 Q. A cheque, he would give you a cheque?

3 A. Yes.

4 207 Q. And the cheque would be...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. Or he made have transferred funds. Now, at this

6 stage I can't recall exactly which way it was done

7 but at the end of the day the funds where made

8 available.

9 208 Q. Yes. What I am trying to find out now is how they

10 were made available? How this happened? If he gave

11 you a cheque, who was the cheque drawn upon?

12 A. Who was it drawn on?

13 209 Q. Yes?

14 A. I have no idea at this stage.

15 210 Q. You cannot remember?

16 A. No.

17 211 Q. Where a transfer was arranged, how was that done?

18 The money was transferred from where to where?

19 A. I have a reservation about whether a transfer was

20 made or not. I tend to think it would have been a

21 cheque or draft of some sort.

22 212 Q. This cheque was payable to you?

23 A. It may have been payable to my son but I think it is

24 more likely he made it payable to me to pass on.

25 213 Q. Did he personally hand you this cheque?

26 A. He would have.

27 214 Q. Is this at a meeting?

28 A. He would have, yes.

29 215 Q. You say "he would have", did he?

30
 1 A. He did, yes.

2 216 Q. He did?

3 A. Yes.

4 217 Q. Where did this happen?

5 A. Mr. Traynor had an office in his house.

6 218 Q. In his house in the Howth Road?

7 A. Correct.

8 219 Q. Is this where you visited him?

9 A. Yes.

10 220 Q. To carry out these transactions?

11 A. Yes.

12 221 Q. In his office on the Howth Road he gave you a

13 cheque?

14 A. Yes, that would be the only place he would have

15 given me the cheque, yes.

16 222 Q. Right. Did you ever go into his office in

17 Guinness & Mahon?

18 A. Not to my knowledge. In the course of the business,

19 of our group business, it is possible I went into

20 his office.

21 223 Q. Yes?

22 A. I just don't recall. I did have

23 some...(INTERJECTION).

24 224 Q. I am really speaking in connection with these

25 transactions?

26 A. No, never.

27 225 Q. Yes?

28 A. No, never.

29 226 Q. This was all done in his home?

31
 2 227 Q. When he allocated the funds on the occasion of the

3 marriage of your sons, you have, is it, three sons?

4 A. Correct.

5 228 Q. Three sons?

6 A. Yes.

7 229 Q. Are all three of them married?

8 A. They are.

9 230 Q. So this happened on the occasion of each marriage?

10 A. Not actually on the date you know, if it was six

11 months later or six months before that they bought

12 houses.

13 231 Q. Yes?

14 A. But it was in or about that period.

15 232 Q. That time?

16 A. Yes.

17 233 Q. Yes. And...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. And there was some disbursed at the end or perhaps

19 it was what might have been a balance to

20 grandchildren, which had arrived by then.

21 234 Q. I was about to come to that?

22 A. Yes.

23 235 Q. I was going to ask you?

24 A. Yes.

25 236 Q. When was the final marriage of the three sons?

26 A. 1985 but one of them didn't get a house for a

27 further year. So, that is where the 1986 comes in.

28 237 Q. Right. By 1986 you had disbursed to your three sons

29 the amounts that you wished to give them?

32
 2 238 Q. And there was some left over, which you were then

3 about to explain to me was disbursed to

4 grandchildren?

5 A. Correct, yes.

6 239 Q. Just getting back to the beginning, what you told me

7 at the start about this discretionary trust?

8 A. Can I just come in for one moment.

9 240 Q. Yes?

10 A. When the final disbursements were made that would

11 have been the entire. If there was a balance the

12 grandchildren would have been allocated some of

13 that.

14 241 Q. That is what I thought?

15 A. With the final house shall we call it.

16 242 Q. However, I just want to get back to the beginning of

17 this trust, which you told me was a discretionary

18 trust?

19 A. Yes.

20 243 Q. The beneficiaries of which were your three sons?

21 A. Yes.

22 244 Q. Were you grandchildren also beneficiaries?

23 A. No, not originally.

24 245 Q. Right?

25 A. Obviously, the boys weren't married. I get your

26 point actually.

27 246 Q. Yes?

28 A. The original discretionary trust would not have

29 mentioned grandchildren.

33
 1 247 Q. Right?

2 A. That is correct, yes.

3 248 Q. Can you explain to me then how it arose that the

4 grandchildren got disbursements from the trust?

5 A. Well, Mr. Traynor was carrying out my wishes.

6 249 Q. Carrying out your wishes?

7 A. Yes.

8 250 Q. Can you tell me a little bit about the class of

9 persons who were described as potential

10 beneficiaries under the trust?

11 A. The type of person?

12 251 Q. The class. You are familiar with the concept of a

13 discretionary trust?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 252 Q. Yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 253 Q. There can be number of beneficiaries?

18 A. Correct.

19 254 Q. And among those beneficiaries the Settlor can

20 appoint who is to benefit at any given time?

21 A. Correct.

22 255 Q. Right. Your three sons were your beneficiaries?

23 A. Correct.

24 256 Q. What I am wondering about is how you were able to

25 express that somebody outside the beneficiaries

26 would benefit?

27 A. Well, if you make a discretionary trust you can't

28 vary that afterwards, is that what you are question

29 is?

34
 1 257 Q. Did you vary it afterwards?

2 A. I would have in as far as that whatever balance was

3 left would have gone to my grandchildren.

4 258 Q. I see. This was by your wishes?

5 A. Of course, yes.

6 259 Q. Which you indicated to Mr. Traynor?

7 A. Yes.

8 260 Q. I see. The trust then was wound up, you say.

9 "On the second occasion I told him,"

10

11 Mr. Traynor,

12 "that it would be my wish that the

Trust would be dissolved."
13

14 I think in late 1986 or 1987?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 261 Q. That is correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 262 Q. Did he do that?

19 A. He did, yes.

20 263 Q. Yes. How did he inform you that that had been done?

21 Did he tell you? Did he...(INTERJECTION)?

22 A. Well, I said to him that -- he said something to me

23 about the trust, which I have forgotten what it was,

24 and I said, "Well, by the way I want you to wind

25 that up now shortly".

26 264 Q. Yes?

27 A. He said probably, "Fine, just let me now when".

28 265 Q. Right. Did that...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. And then eventually I said, "You can do it now."

35
 1 266 Q. At that stage there was still a balance remaining in

2 the trust?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 267 Q. That is correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 268 Q. What happened that balance?

7 A. That is the balance I am speaking of.

8 269 Q. That is the balance that went to the grandchildren?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 270 Q. Now...(INTERJECTION)?

11 A. Plus perhaps my third son. In other words if there

12 was so much there and there was a balance after he

13 was looked after.

14 271 Q. Yes?

15 A. That went to the grandchildren.

16 272 Q. I see. That was 1986?

17 A. 1986, and I think it is was the first month or two

18 of 1987.

19 273 Q. Right. Can I ask you to look at another document?

20 It is page 30 (Exhibit 4)(Same Handed)?

21 A. Yes.

22 274 Q. That is, as you will see, not a very good photocopy?

23 A. Yes.

24 275 Q. However, I think you can see what it is. It is an

25 Exchange Finance Limited cheque made payable to

26 Mr. J.D. Traynor?

27 A. Correct.

28 276 Q. Dated 4th April 1993?

29 A. Correct.

36
 1 277 Q. Can you tell me what that is?

2 A. That was helping a friend in need.

3 278 Q. The friend in need being? Sorry, I do not

4 understand you?

5 A. A mutual friend had got into financial difficulties.

6 279 Q. Yes?

7 A. And Mr. Traynor organised help.

8 280 Q. Right?

9 A. Amongst the friends.

10 281 Q. Yes.

11 A. And that is what that was.

12 282 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

13 A. Would you mind if I consult with Mr. O'Higgins about

14 that.

15 283 Q. Yes, certainly. If it you like Mr. Dennis we might

16 take a break. Sorry, Mr. Dennis?

17 A. Yes.

18 284 Q. We might take a break for a coffee now?

19 A. Yes.

20 285 Q. And you can consult over a cup of coffee and we will

21 come back to you within about ten minutes.

22 A. Fine.

23 286 Q. Is that all right?

24 A. Yes. Thank you.

25

26 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

27

28 287 Q. MS. MACKEY: Very well then.

29 Mr. Dennis, I will leave

37
 1 aside the question of the Kentford cheque. I do not

2 wish to ask you any more questions about that --

3 sorry, the cheque to Mr. Traynor.

4 A. Yes .

5 288 Q. I do not wish to ask you any more questions about

6 that?

7 A. Yes. I would just repeat again that that --

8 Mr. Traynor -- there was a friend who was in

9 difficulties.

10 289 Q. Yes, I know. I understand that. I am not concerned

11 about that?

12 A. The friend is since dead.

13 290 Q. That is all right?

14 A. So, I think it is unnecessary to name him.

15 291 Q. I do not wish to pursue that?

16 A. Thank you.

17 292 Q. Thank you. I want to go back to the letter, the

18 copy of the letter, you furnished to us this

19 morning, which you wrote to the Cayman Islands

20 Mr. Dennis (Exhibit 5)?

21 A. Yes .

22 293 Q. In that letter you ask Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

23 -- well, in fact, it should be "Ansbacher" Limited

24 now because it is no longer called Guinness Man

25 Cayman Trust. However, in any event you asked them

26 if they ever in the past had any account of any type

27 in your name?

28 A. Yes .

29 294 Q. And send the details?

 1 A. Yes .

2 295 Q. What you have been telling us about here today is a

3 trust managed by Guinness Mahan Cayman trust. I

4 would like you now, we would like you, to write to

5 them again asking them about your trust specifically

6 rather than an account because this may mislead

7 them. They may look and find no account and

8 therefore answer you that they have nothing. What

9 you had there with them was a trust?

10 A. Yes .

11 296 Q. If you would write to them, under the name of

12 "Ansbacher" Cayman Limited, asking them for details

13 of the trust which was set up? It may not have been

14 set up in your name because from what we have

15 learned of these trusts set up in the Cayman, they

16 are quite often set up in the name of someone else

17 out there in the Caymans. What we would suggest to

18 you is that you identify this trust to "Ansbacher"

19 by naming the beneficiaries, the beneficiaries whom

20 you chose when you were setting up this trust. Ask

21 please for The Trust Deed, copies of The Letters

22 Of Wishes, and copies of all related documents and

23 correspondence in connection with the trust

24 specifically?

25 A. Certainly.

26 297 Q. If you would do that?

27 A. Yes .

28 298 Q. Thank you very much. You mentioned writing a

29 Letter Of Wishes, which you said you drafted

39
 1 yourself by looking at one you had already done

2 for Bank Of Ireland?

3 A. Yes.

4 299 Q. And the draft one that Mr. Traynor provided to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 300 Q. To whom did you address that Letter Of Wishes?

7 A. To who ever Mr. Traynor told me to address it to.

8 301 Q. Who was that?

9 A. I am afraid I can't recall.

10 302 Q. You cannot recall?

11 A. Not 28 years later, no.

12 303 Q. Would it have been addressed to Mr. Traynor himself?

13 A. Well, I would doubt it if I am asked for an opinion

14 but I have no idea who it was addressed to.

15 304 Q. You do not remember?

16 A. No.

17 305 Q. Thank you. That is all the questions I have for

18 you. Thank you Mr. Dennis?

19 A. Thank you.

20 306 Q. I think Judge Costello would like to ask you some

21 questions.

22

23 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. BRIAN DENNIS BY MS. MACKEY

24

25

26

27

28

29

40
 1 MR. BRIAN DENNIS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY

2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

4 307 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a few questions

5 Mr. Dennis. I want to ask

6 you about the role, as you know it, of College

7 Trustees in the Channel Islands, in relation to the

8 trust arrangements you made with Mr. Traynor? What

9 did he tell you?

10 A. Nothing. He mentioned to me, as I have said in my

11 letter, that he was changing the trust to the

12 Channel Islands and that it made no difference. So,

13 that was fair enough with me. On a second occasion

14 he mentioned something about the Channel Islands,

15 which I don't recall but it wasn't significant, and

16 on that occasion I told him that it was my wish that

17 the trust would be wound up.

18 308 Q. Yes?

19 A. When it was being wound up I have an idea that I

20 signed one or two documents. At this stage I can't

21 recall what they were but one I did write out in

22 longhand on Mr. Traynor's instructions.

23 309 Q. Yes?

24 A. Because again the -- I had no connection or no

25 correspondence, no contact, whatsoever with

26 Guinness & Mahon in the Channel Islands.

27 310 Q. The...(INTERJECTION)?

28 A. But on the winding up of the trust I did sign one or

29 two documents and I am pretty certain of that, and

41
 1 one was in longhand but I don't recall at this stage

2 what it was.

3 311 Q. Was it a document addressed to some entity in the

4 Channel Islands?

5 A. I can't really recall. I wrote something out in

6 longhand. He said, under his direction, to write

7 out something in longhand.

8 312 Q. Yes?

9 A. And there may have been one or two other forms which

10 I signed on the dissolution of the trust but I don't

11 recall what they are at this stage.

12 313 Q. Did they relate to a Channel Islands entity?

13 A. I can't recall who they related to.

14 314 Q. Yes .

15 A. I did -- as far as I recall this is the end of 1986

16 or 1987. So, I just -- and again I had no

17 documentation whatsoever.

18 315 Q. Yes. I would just like you to look at one other

19 document? Ms. Cummins, it is a letter of 24th

20 December 1986 from -- it is the one we got today

21 (Same Handed)(Exhibit 6)?

22 A. Thank you.

23 316 Q. This is a letter dated 24th December 1986?

24 A. 1986?

25 317 Q. 1986?

26 A. Yes .

27 318 Q. It is an internal memo to Mr. Pender of GMI. You

28 will see there on page two,

29 "(D) College Trustees Clients for whom

College have arranged backing deposits

42
 1 here through GMCT."

3 That is Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. You will see

4 there that there are backing deposits and the figure

5 then -- the name of the company is down there,

6 "Exchange finance."

8 That is your company?

9 A. Yes.

10 319 Q.
"£108,279.83"?
11

12 A. Yes.

13 320 Q. And,

14 "Dennis Motors £110,260.89."

15

16 Do you see those there?

17 A. I do indeed, yes.

18 321 Q. This appears to refer to loans which

19 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin had made to these

20 companies of yours, which were backed by College

21 Trustees Clients, of which you appear to have been

22 -- which were College Trustees, whose account was

23 used to back these loans. Do you remember these

24 loans?

25 A. I never heard of College Trustees until I read their

26 name in the paper in the last couple of years.

27 322 Q. Do you remember these loans?

28 A. Not specifically but I would accept that I did have

29 loans, that my companies did have loans, yes.

43
 1 323 Q. From Guinness & Mahon?

2 A. Yes, definitely, yes.

3 324 Q. Yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 325 Q. Approximately these amounts would be approximately

6 correct in your view? There is no reason for you to

7 doubt them?

8 A. No, no, I don't doubt them, no.

9 326 Q. Yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 327 Q. Very well then Mr. Dennis. The other matter I

12 wanted to just ask you about, just to bring you back

13 Mr. Dennis to...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. Can we get a copy of that.

15 328 Q. You can get a copy of that but we will take out the

16 other names from that?

17 A. Yes.

18 329 Q. The other matter I want to ask you about is

19 the original establishment of the trust

20 with Mr. Traynor. The funds which appear there in

21 these documents, that we have shown you, show that

22 the trust at that time was at least about £218,000?

23 A. Yes.

24 330 Q. We are not concerned with the exact amounts at all

25 in our enquiry?

26 A. Yes.

27 331 Q. However, in order to ascertain what, in fact,

28 happened and what you made of the services of

29 the Bank, I must ask you was the total trust much in

44
 1 excess of this figure that we see here, £218,000?

2 A. No, no, and again I am trying to think what would

3 have happened but, as I mentioned earlier on, it was

4 a growth. The fund/trust was a growth fund and as

5 such that may include the accruals.

6 332 Q. We all know...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. But it didn't -- in answer to your first question,

8 no, as far as I remember that was about the max it

9 ever went to.

10 333 Q. Yes. We all know Mr. Dennis what a growth fund is.

11 You gave the money to Mr. Traynor, is that not

12 right, originally?

13 A. Correct.

14 334 Q. You did not add to it at any time, or did you?

15 A. Well, it accrued as I said and...(INTERJECTION).

16 335 Q. No. I am talking about transfers by you to

17 Mr. Traynor. Did you give him some further funds to

18 put into it?

19 A. I can't recall at this stage.

20 336 Q. Yes?

21 A. Whether I did add to it but...(INTERJECTION).

22 337 Q. Is it possible?

23 A. Could I have a look at the date on that please,

24 until I just see?

25 338 Q. Yes?

26 A. The last one you gave me.

27 339 Q. The first letter, the first page?

28 A. The second one you gave me.

29 340 Q. Yes, the second one but that is page 2. The first

45
 1 page of the letter is 1986. It is the

2 24th December 1986 (Exhibit 6).

3 A. Sorry, that isn't -- I don't think I am on that,

4 am I? Where is the date?

5 MS. MACKEY: The date is on the first

6 page.

7 A. The date, I beg your pardon. December 1986. Well,

8 by December 1986 the trust had been in existence for

9 about 14 years.

10 341 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Well...(INTERJECTION)?

11 A. So, I am uncertain as to whether that was the

12 accrual.

13 342 Q. It should be possible for you...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. Or whether, yes.

15 343 Q. It should be possible for you Mr. Dennis to remember

16 whether or not you ever went to Mr. Traynor and gave

17 him some further funds to be added to your trust

18 fund. Can you remember?

19 A. The answer is I can't remember at this stage.

20 344 Q. Do you think is it possible?

21 A. I think it is possible.

22 345 Q. If you gave to Mr. Traynor for the trust a capital

23 sum?

24 A. Yes.

25 34 6 Q. Do you remember the amount you gave him initially?

26 A. I do, yes.

27 347 Q. How much initially did you give him?

28 A. £100,000.

29 348 Q. Yes. Is it not obvious Mr. Dennis that interest

46
 1 would have been earned on that £100,000 by the

2 trustees?

3 A. Yes, yes. I mean that he -- Mr. Traynor was to

4 invest that as he sought fit and whether he bought

5 and sold equities, or whether he bought bonds, or

6 whether he had it on deposit I couldn't say.

7 349 Q. I could not say?

8 A. Yes .

9 350 Q. If he had it on deposit, it would have earned

10 interest, wouldn't it?

11 A. Correct.

12 351 Q. Whatever he might have done with the capital in the

13 buying and selling of bonds, there would have been

14 money put on deposit, which would have earned

15 interest?

16 A. Well, I was paying a management fee each year for

17 the trust and that was to manage it.

18 352 Q. Yes?

19 A. So, he was managing it and I...(INTERJECTION).

20 353 Q. Yes?

21 A. And I didn't look. In a growth fund you would only

22 look at it every five years because it is not

23 something you would look at short term.

24 354 Q. No, I am not talking about a growth fund. I am

25 talking about interest being earned on the capital

26 that you had given him?

27 A. Correct.

28 355 Q. Is it not obvious that some interest would have been

29 earned on the capital?

 1 A. I would think so, yes.

2 356 Q. Am I correct in saying that you did not return this

3 in any of your income tax returns?

4 A. That would be correct.

5 357 Q. Yes.

6 A. That is if there was interest earned.

7 358 Q. Yes?

8 A. As I said Mr. Traynor was managing that trust and

9 that fund.

10 359 Q. Yes?

11 A. And how he managed it -- at the end of the year or

12 every couple -- whenever I got the statements.

13 360 Q. Yes?

14 A. The capital sum was shown.

15 361 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. And the deductions on the other side.

17 362 Q. Yes. Either -- this was financially would appear to

18 have been an attractive operation because the

19 capital had increased from £100,000 to over

20 £200,000?
21 A. Yes.

22 363 Q. And no tax was paid on it at all, is that correct?

23 A. That is correct. There may not have been any tax

24 due. If he was buying and selling instruments.

25 364 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

26 A. That were.

27 365 Q. Yes. It might not have been?

28 A. Yes.

29 366 Q. Yes. Did you not consider that you should continue

48
 1 such an operation with Mr. Traynor's assistance

2 afterwards, after you finished in 1986?

3 A. No.

4 367 Q. You did not go into it?

5 A. No.

6 368 Q. You didn't?

7 A. It had -- the purpose for which I set up the trust

8 had arrived or had been met.

9 369 Q. Yes?

10 A. And that was the end of it.

11 370 Q. Yes?

12 A. I have had no contact whatsoever since the

13 dissolution of the trust, which as I say is late

14 1986/87, with anyone from Guinness & Mahon. I never

15 heard of "Ansbacher" Cayman.

16 371 Q. Yes?

17 A. I never heard of College Trustees to the best of my

18 knowledge.

19 372 Q. Yes. You would have met Mr. Traynor just socially

20 then, is that it?

21 A. That is correct, yes.

22 373 Q. You did not have any commercial dealings with him

23 then after that?

24 A. None whatsoever.

25 374 Q. What about Guinness & Mahon, did you continue

26 ...(INTERJECTION)?

27 A. Yes.

28 375 Q. Using them as your bankers?

29 A. Yes, I did, yes.

49
 1 376 Q. And obtaining loans from Guinness & Mahon?

2 A. Yes.

3 377 Q. Thank you?

4 A. And I would repeat again that any loan we ever got

5 from Guinness & Mahon was secured.

6 378 Q. Yes?

7 A. By personal guarantees which, of course, nowadays we

8 don't have.

9 379 Q. Yes?

10 A. But personal guarantees followed by floating

11 charges.

12 380 Q. Yes?

13 A. Over the assets of the companies involved.

14 381 Q. Yes?

15 A. There were mortgages and debentures and they were

16 all registered in The Company's Office.

17 382 Q. Very well Mr. Dennis. Thank you. We would be glad

18 if you would try to obtain the documents which we

19 have asked for?

20 A. Yes.

21 383 Q. Your interview will be transcribed and we would ask

22 you to come in to sign the transcript?

23 A. Certainly, yes. Thank you.

24 384 Q. And if you would not mind sending us on a copy of

25 any letter that you write to Cayman and any

26 correspondence you have?

27 A. Certainly, yes.

28

29 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.

50
 3

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

51
r^Vexr^ C x M A t A V v *

N^isAVmv

toete.^^. ON
Appendix XV (26) (l)(b)
 STATEMENT BY H. BRIAN M»rNI»

I am fully prepared to assist the Inspectors in any way I can. At the outset I would
stress and am absolutely certain that I dp not have and never did have any
correspondence documentation or records in my possession concerning Guinness and
Mahon Cayman Trust. I never had any direct contact whatsoever with it.

In 1971 Bank Of Ireland Trustee Departmentformed a Discretionary Trust for me

(see copy of letter) into which I put certain assets and following a subsequent
discussion with Mr Des Traynor, Mr PJ O Connor (solicitor) and Brian Bruen
(accountant) which I think was in 19721 decided to form a second one, into which I
put other assets which I required for a specific family purpose which eventually
matured and I then told Mr Traynor it was my wish that he dissolve the Trust I think
in late 1986 or 19S7. At sometimeand I cannot recall the date he told me he was
changing the trust technically to the Channel Islands and that it made no difference
and on another occasion he mentioned some further change which I cannot recall. On
the second occasion I told him that it would be my wish that the Trust be dissolved in
the near future. I imagine this was between mid 1985 and 1986.

After the trust was dissolved I had no further association with Guinness and Mahon
Cayman or its successors. The dates and generality of above are to the best of my
recollection but may vary somewhat.

Z2 ^000
 REPLIES TO APPENDIX f?

w t m a n isi^ww - m m Am tbpst companies

1. (A) Mr Dm Traynor, Mr PJ 0 Connor, and Mr Brian Bruen adviied me I think in

the early 1970'i and I never had any documentation.
(B) I think in the early 1970's together with fees involved.
(C) Nothing farther.
(D) The income was allowed accrue. I am of the opinion that I expressed wishes
on a number of occasions that capital be disbursed to or on behalf of fkmiiy
members. I do not recall the dates. •
(E) I wm the settlor.
(F) I executed a letter of wishes but I do not have a copy.
(G) Other than (D) the only instruction I ever gave was verbally to Mr Traynor to
dissolve the Trust.

THE USE OF DEPOSITS MAINTAINED BY IRISH RESIDENTS

W m THE COMPANY

2. 1 did not avail of this service or any similar service and have no knowledge of
same
3. Do Do Do

4. Do Do Do

5. Do Do Do
 EXCHANGE CONTROL ACTS 19S4 -1991

6. I recall signing a number of documents including «letter of wishes at the

formation of the Trust I cannot recollect if one wasfor exchange permission.

CflANim ISfifANPS TUVST ANP CQMPAMEft

7. I did not establiah a trust In the Channel Islands and refer you to my general
statement
8. (A) None
(B) None
(C) None
(D) Trust set up for family purposes (name of trust unknown)
 TRUSTEE DEPARTMENT

THMMMM Aoancsai
"BANK. OUaUN."
tMJIHMMa KO. 77*101
n m f TO
'T*« MAMMCH Twiism w r . -

JShd&ns 2.

K/CH. 1 1 t h March 1971.

H.B. Dennis Esq,

"lona",
1 3 0 Howth R o a d ,
PufrUfti
Do a x B r i a n t

I now e n c l o s e a Memorandum I h a v e . p r e p a r e d a r i s i n g from OUT

m e e t i n g o n Monday l a s t . I have s e n t c o p i e s d i r e c t t o P a t O'Connor and
Brian Bruen. I t h i n k ' . t h i s ', i d e n t i f i e s t h e v a r i o u s s t e p s t o b e t a k e n t o
inplenent the proposals. I have i n d i c a t e d the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of the i n d i v i d u a l
partiea in t h i s respect.

• X w o u l d l i k e t o s u g g e s t t h a t when y o u a n d y o u r a d v i s e r s h a v e h a d a n
. o p p o r t u n i t y o f d i g e s t i n g t h i s t h a t we m e e t f i r s t t o c l a r i f y o n e o r t w o
technical p o i n t s 1 have r a i s e d - e . g . the leasing of the premises, whether
i n f a c t we h a v e o n e o r t w o - S e t t l e m e n t s - and t h e n t o s p e c i f i c a l l y a r r a n g e f o r
t h e ' f o r m a l Company m e e t i n g s » p r i o r t o w h i c h o f c o u r s e a l l p a r t i e s w i l l h a v e
completed t h e i r duties*'

I h o p e t o a r r a n g e t h i s m e e t i n g i n t h e week c o m m e n c i n g t h e 2 2 n d
i n s t a n t o r a t l a t e s t t h e following w e e k . U n l e s s I h e a r from y o u b e f o r e t h i s
1 w i l l c o n t a c t you i n t h e f i r s t i n s t a n c e .

Should you p e r s o n a l l y w i s h t o c a l l t o d i s c u s s t h e n a t t e r f u r t h e r
p a r t i c u l a r l y w i t h your w i f e , p l e a s e h a v e n o h e s i t a t i o n i n c o n t a c t i n g m e .

Yours

A M&MM or TMC *ANK OP MONO «*SUl»

Appendix XV (26) (1) (d)
 CUISHCSS * WHOM LIMITO
, ' I
• I

warorx 10
HMOB LOWS BACKED IV 'DEPOSITS* HRP » CAVHW/SUtlWSET TRUST CCHMWtES

low-'Silwe* OutjtMdlhfl • , "

at 30 itortl W t P*PM1t ' 1 Offthorg
Borrowir
Cmw fiuerniej'

12. H.B. DwmW Ltfu, IM

Appendix XV (26) (l)(e)
 NEW FACILITIES SANCTIONED

DURING AUGUST 1978

W l X PINANCE TRUST 100,000.00 Suitably secured

31/8/78
PO'D/AC
Appendix XV (26) (l)(f)
n . n
" ' > >

lona
130 Hawth Road
Clontarf
Dublin 3

Guinness Malion Cayman Trust

P.O. Box 337
Grand Cayman
British West Indies 10/02/00

RE: 11. BRIAN DENNIS

Dear Sirs,

Please inform n^e if you ever in the past had any account of any type in
my,name. If so please send me all the details and a statement of the
account. If you have any documents or correspondence I would ask you
• to forward them or copies to me.

pose
I G 1S T!: R 17)
C ) r ,i ; ; h i:
Yours Faithfully
C U S T O M E R RECEIPT / A D M H A I L
SENT TO ~ X h Wft/J
P.p. 6 . x
H. Brian Dennis
&(Zrr/SH WEST
Item No. RR 2685 0097 7IE
VALUE OF CONTENTS IN WORDS & FIGURES)
£

ACC8TIMG OFFICER'S REG. FEE

NTULS,- £
A is
N O T E : This receipt is y o u r p r o o f o f p o s t i n g a n d
s h o u l d o e retained carefully.
See b a c k for conditions.
' CUSTOMER'S REFERENCE
RR 2 6 8 5 0 0 9 7 7IE
 GUINNESS MANON CAYMAN TRUST
P.O. BOX 337
GRAND CAYMAN
BRITISH WEST INDIES

f"*

z0^

*
,,.
ri
..r
.tJ„inJLnJl/UUULf\jiiUia\LaiinjlaRnHJ\JlnJ^ XOnlfnl
nil oh nil nil

IP UNDELIVERED RETURN TO
H. BRIAN DENNIS
130 HOWTH ROAD
DUBLIN 3
IRELAND

T
Appendix XV (26) (l)(h)
 Bruce :

As requested I list hereunder particulars of the Accounts for which we hold backm*
n g
deposits from GMCT :

a)
Resident Accounts ( which are included in the full set -aff
category for Central Bank Returns : - set- .off

b) Resident Accounts for

which we hold deposits from GMCT duly hypothecated

iee
A Page 2

r
c) Resident Account for which we hold deposit direct from Olympic
Investments, which is a Cayman Company : -

d) College Trustee clients for whom College have arranged backing

deposits here through G.M.C.T. : -

Exchange .Finance 108,279.83 Stg.

Dennis Motors 110,260.89 Stg.

With reference to . . . . , - - and , you will also

have similar loans and security on your own books for significant amounts.

Regards,

Michael J. Pender
U'HIGGINS .i'iij
SOLICITORS
(
JAMES F. O'tliCHimS
ISC)BEL BUTLER l

JFO'H/MW/N857
Office of the Inspectors of the High Court
Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.,
3 r d Floor C/D04/MF
Trident House u% on m By fax 283 39 29 and by post
Blackrock
Co. Dublin

10,TH October 2001

Re: Brian Dennis

Dear Sirs,

We refer to previous correspondence herein and in particular to your letter of 27 th

August last.

We agree that our client was a client was a client of Guinness & Mahon Caymen.

However, you subsequently stated in your letter as follows:—

"You are a client of Ansbacher".

This is entirely untrue.

Mr. Denis ceased to have any connection whatsoever with Guinness & Mahon
Caymen at the end of 1986 and never had any dealings with them or their successors
after that date.

With regard to the transcript, we should be obliged if you would nominate a date in
which it could be signed.

Yours faithfully,
Appendix XV (27) Mr Charles TG Dillon, deceased
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Charles TG Dillon.

a) Letter of 8 May 2000 from Carl J Dillon to Inspectors.

b) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 24 October 1986.

c) Letter of 8 January 1993 from Hamilton Ross to IIB.

d) Letter of 23 September 1994 from Hamilton Ross to Corporate Services

IIB.

e) Letter of 16 December 1992 - IIB to Joan Williams.

f) Letter of 2 February 1993 - Hamilton Ross to IIB.

g) Letter of 3 November 1992 - Hamilton Ross to IIB.

h) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Padraig Collery dated 11 January

2000.
Appendix XV (27) (1) (a)
8 May, 2000

In reply to: Letter of 28th March, 2000 under C/D05/ND

Office of die Inspectors appointed by Order of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd
3rd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin

0$HAYm
Dear Sirs & Madam

Apologies (at (be delay in responding to your letter.

Gceentl

I confirm, on behalf of die Estate of my latefiriber that I n n anxious to afford you all possible iwrHnit
in connection with your kveatigatioa. I do not believe that I currently have much information in my
possession relevant to your enquiries When this matterfirst stose I made a number of enquiries, through
Guinness Ac Mahon, who had notified me of the matter. The information they gave me was -very limited
and amounted to a lever archfile with various copy statements of Irish Guinness 8c Mahon accounts with
one Irish Guinness & Mahon loan apparently noted as secured by a Cayman related deposit Despite my
repeated requests I have not received anyfarther information. I confirm that I win happily issue letters of
enquiry to whatever companies, institutions or bodies which you consider may be able to help. I would
simply ask that you provide draft letters with dear addresses etc and I will issue same and let you have
whatever responses I receive; This would seem to be the most efficient and cost effective way to proceed
&om here. (These could perhaps beforwarded to me by email at ciiillonfglindigaie.)

My lat? Esther died 16* January; 1998 after a relatively brief illness. I do not believe be was aware of your
enqntoa before he died and he did not have therimeor alu&ty to deal with such matters during Iris fflness.
After he died my mother disposed of rite family home and moved to her current home in August 1998.
This move was from a large to a relatively; much smaller house. This move necessitated the disposal of a
lifetime's family memorabilia, w"-M*«g much paper. I believe that 5 large disposal skips werefilled and
removed at this time. All paper; not recognised as being of current value had to be dumped at this time. I
am not aware of any paper related to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited having been dumped at this time, but it
is possible that it could have happened.

This whole matter is a cause of considerable stress snd anguish,-for my mother particularly, and I hope that
by co-operating fully and unequivocally that F can help to minimise the damage and hurt to her and die rest
of my family.

Specific

(1) I have no records available to me to enable me deal with your requirements. My only understanding is
that my late father had a long working relationship with Guinness 8c Mahon and I believe he must
have established whatever relationship he had with Ansbacher (Cayman) limited through Guinness it
Mahon. Guinness 8c Mahon would appear to have not afforded me the information I need to deal
with your enquiries. I request your help in resolving this impasse. (As per first paragraph above
suggestion)

(2) I do not believe that I have any books or documents in my custody or power relating to your
investigation. I will happily pursue same, if you can afford me die help requested above, (draft letters
snd clear addresses etc) I respect of disposal of documents and copy documents please see note
above which outlines how my fatten last home was disposed of etc. I cannot provide a list of relevant

4 THE GROVB
 -2- May 8,2000

documents disposed of a* I am not aware of any lelewnt documents disposed o£

(3) I note die requirement to attend and give sworn evidence. I hope that we can •work together to
generate die documentation. I confirm my willingness to submit to this process as appropriate.

Carl J. Dillon
Executor of the Estate of die late Chades T G DiDoa
Appendix XV (27) (l)(b)
r\

MEMO

1
M.C.K. to M.J.P. 24th October, 1936.

Patrick M. Dillon
Professor C. Dillon.

I have discussed above with D.P.C. The balance on the

loan account value 1st October, 1985, being E13,716.36
will, until further notice, be in the offset category at
zero rate and will be backed by a deposit In the name of
Oakland investments (GMCT) for the same amount in external
Irish pounds also at nil rate. The balance to clear
Sundry Persons i.e. £1,283.64 la being credited to C.J.D's
current account.

KCK/BK
 Hamilton Ross Co. Limited
P.O. Bo* 887. Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indie
Pleasereplyto: Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
42 Fitzwilliam Square,
Dublin 1 Facsimile: (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-526"
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035

8th January, 1993,

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear Ronan,
I enclose herewith U.S. Dollar £ue for US$16,296.91.
Could you please arrange to ere this as follows:
Hamilton Ross Account Ref. A/A^ 3.03/39317/81^ $3,754.91
No. 03^39265/8^ $7,875.00
Hamilton Ross Account Ref. ^ 5 8 No.03/39273/81 $4,667.00 ' I /
$16,296.91

Yours sincerely,

For HAMILTON ROSS to. LIMITED

JDT/AJW

»
 Hamilton Ross Co. Limited
Pleasereplyto: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, British Wesi Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telephone; (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Facsimile: (809) 949-7946, (809)949-5267
Tel: 676 5144/676 3065
Fax: 6612035

Ms. Daire Nolan-Cassidy, 23rd September, 1994.

Corporate Services,
91 Menion Square,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear Daire, ;r*. "j" '

I Si «.
Could you please arrange to let us havefor coUecdd^anlrish Bouiids'chequefor the
Irish Pounds equivalent of US$36,000.00 payable to ."DILLON and debit the
cost to Hamilton Ross U.S. Dollar Account Ref. A/A57 No.03/39265/81.
Yours sincerely,

a / : • - j u i ^
V *T ^aaJ
For HAMILTON BOSS CO. LIMITED

/AJW
 IttSH INTIICONTININTAI 1ANK

16 December, 1992

Ms. Joan Williams,

42 Fitzwilliam Square,
Dublin 2.

Re: Hamilton Ross Co. Ltd. - Now Account Numbers

Dear Joan,
We confirm the following new account numbers for the Hamilton ~
Ross USD accounts:-

Ref X/A57 __ 03/39265/8^.

Kind regards,
Yours sincerely,
for Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited.

CORPORATE SERVICES.

1»«3H IKTUtCOKHNlMTAl. IANX UMJTXO . »1 MtMJON SQUAJU. DU»UN » • •OUrWONt.OV 4197-U • JAC54MIU. 01 71MSA • TLLZX. US12. v w

T
 x u u u u u m m w u). u m n e a
Plemse reply to: P.O. Bo* 8*7, Good Caynaa. Ocymm Islands. British Wc« Indies
42 FtawflHjon Square, Telephone: (809) 949-M5S Telex: CP 4305
Dublin! Puainlte:flK») 949-7946. (809)949-5267
Td: 765144/763065
EUL: 612035

2nd February, 1993

Bonan Bednond, lag.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limit ad,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear Ronan,
With reference to the Swiss Franca recantly received from
Zurich-totalling Sw.Fes.276,420.30 which you ara holding on
Call Deposit, could you please arrange to convert 60,000 of
these Swiss Francs to Irish founds and lat ma have for collection
an Irish Pounds cheque for the resulting amount payable to
C. DILLON.
Could you then please convert the balance on that Swiss Francs
Account to U.S. Dollars and add to Hamilton Boss Account
Bef. A/A57 No.03/39265/81.
In dua course it would be appreciated if you could advise details
of the transactions.
Yours sincerely,

Fox HAMILTON BOSS CO. LIMITED

JDT/AJW

\>U-j>O3
Appendix XV (27) (1) (g)
 Ansbacher Limited
Please reply to: P.O. Box 117, Grand Cayman, Cayman blands, Bricish West indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, • Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Tel«x: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Ftaimilt (109) 949-7946 (809) 949-S267
Tel: 765144/763065
Far 612035

3rd November, 1992.

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Iriah Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.

Deaf Ronan,
Could you pleaae arrange to let me have for collection - Friday
morning at the latest - an Zriah Pounds cheque for IRS 10,000
payable to C.T.G. Dillon and debit the coat to Hamilton Roas
Account No.02/01354/81.

Yours sincerely

LUju i ———

f-
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED

/AJW

AMswEnorna AmiAem 25R^ < 2ffJ£P w l w o m c a

AUOIOCATXO WTMt WAVMAl 1M1WIVMIN HANDS.

ctrouSw. Monaco jumswiranuro
Appendix XV (27) (1) (h)
1 on the list on Hamilton Ross, this would be helpful
2 to us. Have you any objection to giving us the
3 names of the people who are clients of Hamilton
4 Ross?
5 A. Not at all, they are within this list.
6 394 Q. So that all the list of clients of Hamilton Ross who
7 were clients of Ansbacher are there and maybe are
8 there some people on the Hamilton Ross list who are
9 not clients of Ansbacher?
10 A. I think at all stages, at the previous stage of the
11 life of Ansbacher they had a connection or
12 relationship with the Ansbacher and they moved
13 across into Hamilton Ross. There are none, that X
14 know of, that never had a relationship with
15 Ansbacher in Hamilton Ross. So that anybody who has
16 a relationship with Hamilton Ross... (INTERJECTION).
17 395 Q. Would have had a previous relationship with
18 Ansbacher?
19 A. That iB as I Understand it.
20 396 Q. How many people are we talking about, how many
21 accounts are we talking about?
22 A. About 60.
23 397 Q. That is on your list and I am just wondering are all
24 those 60, do they all go over to Hamilton Ross or do
25 you know were many people on the bureau system that
26 would have been on Hamilton Ross?
27 A. Over the years the bureau list, again it is what I
28 can gleam from a listing, would have been about a
29 hundred odd accounts in total at any one time. So
92
Appendix XV (28) Mr Terence DE Dixon
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Terence D E Dixon.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Michael O' Shea dated 19 June 2001.

b) Statement of Michael O' Shea.

c) Letter of 16 March 2001 - Michael O'Shea to the Inspectors.

d) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo - JDT to P O'D of 5 September

1984.

e) Letter of 2 May 1985 - DJ Barry to the Greffer's Office, Guernsey.

f) Letter of 18 May 1992 - Joan Williams to Ronan Redmond, IIB.

g) Statements of Account A/A54.

h) Foreign Dealing tickets - Hamilton Ross.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Terence D E Dixon.

a) Letter of 14 December 2001 - Mason Hayes & Curran to the Inspectors.

b) Letter of 15 January 2002 - Mason Hayes & Curran to the Inspectors.

Appendix XV (28) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 19TH JUNE 2001

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: HIS HONOUR JUDGE 0'LEARY

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA

Represented by: MR. KEVIN BARRY

McGONAGLE KENNEDY BALLAGH

 I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION

MR. M. 0'SHEA JUDGE 0'LEARY

 1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,

2 19TH JUNE 2001:

5 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I note your statement

6 with regard to the

7 voluntariness of your attendance and that is

8 accepted, Exhibit 1.

9 MR. 0'SHEA: That is accepted.

10 JUDGE 0'LEARY: By the Inspectors.

11 MR. O'SHEA: Thank you. Thanks.

12 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. That is a fairly

13 standard procedure

14 nowadays I think.

15 MR. O'SHEA: It is

16 JUDGE O'LEARY: It is indeed.

17 MR. O'SHEA: It is, yes.

18 JUDGE O'LEARY: Thank you very much indeed

19 for attending, Mr. O'Shea.

20 My name is Sean O'Leary. I am one of the

21 Inspectors. I do not think we have had the

22 pleasure of meeting before. Ms. Noreen Mackey

23 is the other Inspector.

24 MR. O'SHEA: I have met Ms. Mackey

25 before.

26 JUDGE O'LEARY: You have met Ms. Mackey

27 before.

28 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.

29 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes, I think she told me

4
 1 that.

2 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.

3 JUDGE O'LEARY: The position is that there

4 are, as you know, four

5 Inspectors but only two of the Inspectors will

6 be dealing with any matter touching on anything

7 we talk about here today to you.

8 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.

9 JUDGE O'LEARY: Obviously, we have had to

10 divide up the work and

11 that is the way it is divided so far.

12 MR. 0'SHEA: I understand, yes.

13 JUDGE O'LEARY: The position is that we

14 have a number of questions

15 to ask you both in your own personal capacity as a

16 member of a firm of solicitors and also in your

17 capacity as one of the persons named with legal

18 authority in the Will of the late Mr. McGonagle.

19 MR. 0'SHEA: Indeed.

20 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. So, it is in those

21 two capacities.

22 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.

23 JUDGE O'LEARY: It is a very informal

24 procedure. There is only

25 one formal part of it as you know and that is the

26 question of taking the oath.

27 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.

28 JUDGE O'LEARY: That is the only formal

29 part of it really.

5
 1 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.

2 JUDGE O'LEARY: I note that you have a

3 solicitor here with you.

4 You probably will not need it but if you feel like

5 consulting with the solicitor at any time by all

6 means just tell us "Stop" and we will stop and you

7 can of course consult with your colleague.

8 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.

9 JUDGE O'LEARY: And similarly if your

10 colleague feels that it

11 is in your interest that we should stop at any time

12 all he has to do is to say "Stop" and we will allow

13 the interruption.

14 MR. O'SHEA: That is why Kevin is here.

15 JUDGE O'LEARY: What?

16 MR. O'SHEA: That is why he is here.

17 JUDGE O'LEARY: That is why he is here,

18 yes. I think you are

19 wise. People are wise always to have another

20 pair of eyes and ears there.

21 MR. O'SHEA: Right, yes.

22 JUDGE O'LEARY: I wonder if you would take

23 the oath now and we will

24 get on to asking you the questions we have.

25 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.

26

27

28

29

6
 1 MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED

2 AS FOLLOWS BY JUDGE O'LEARY:

5 1 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Mr. O'Shea, the position

6 is that most of the

7 connections which we have discovered relate, I

8 would think it is fair to say, to the activities

9 of the late Mr. McGonagle?

10 A. Yes.

11 2 Q. I think that is a fair summary. There are however

12 a number of things relating to your firm to which

13 we would also like to refer?

14 A. Yes.

15 3 Q. However, in order to put the matter straight you

16 were appointed under the Will of Mr. O'Shea to be

17 the Executor and Trustee of his Estate?

18 A. Of Mr. McGonagle.

19 MS. MACKEY: Mr. McGonagle.

20 A. Yes.

21 4 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Of Mr. McGonagle I should

22 say?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 5 Q. You were?

25 A. One of them.

26 6 Q. Yes. One of two of them I think?

27 A. That is right.

28 7 Q. Yes. The other one being a Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland?

29 A. 0'Reilly-Hyland.

7
 1 8 Q. Did you exercise that power?

2 A. No.

3 9 Q. No?

4 A. No, I renounced my rights.

5 10 Q. You renounced your rights?

6 A. Yes.

7 11 Q. Who in fact exercised the power?

8 A. His widow.

9 12 Q. His widow?

10 A. Barbara.

11 13 Q. Yes. As the heir at law is it?

12 A. As the residual legatee.

13 14 Q. As a residual legatee?

14 A. Yes.

15 15 Q. All right. Did you act in that matter?

16 A. Yes.

17 16 Q. Yes, you did. In a professional capacity for him?

18 A. Yes.

19 17 Q. One of the problems that we have had in dealing

20 with the case of Mr. McGonagle is that we have to

21 accept that the widow of Mr. McGonagle was only

22 very recently married to him?

23 A. That is true, yes.

24 18 Q. And she has sent us in various statements with

25 regard to her state of knowledge which we accept;

26 I mean from a practical viewpoint?

27 A. Indeed.

28 19 Q. You are probably aware of those statements yourself?

29 A. Yes, I am.

8
 2 A. I am aware of them.

3 21 Q. I mean from your own personal knowledge are we

4 wise to give credence to those do you think?

5 A. Well, I would have thought so.

6 22 Q. Yes?

7 A. I mean she...(INTERJECTION).

8 23 Q. You...(INTERJECTION)?

9 A. I mean...(INTERJECTION).

10 24 Q. From your own knowledge does she know anything

11 about the situation?

12 A. Well, I can never be certain but I

13 know...(INTERJECTION).

14 25 Q. Of course I understand that?

15 A. But I know Liam was an extraordinarily close,

16 careful, prudent and secretive man.

17 26 Q. Yes?

18 A. He didn't volunteer information to anybody.

19 27 Q. Yes?

20 A. And least of all to his wife.

21 28 Q. Yes?

22 A. Now, I mean I gleaned information over the years

23 from time to time. I was never told, you know?

24 29 Q. I understand. So, it is entirely consistent that

25 she would not know anything really significant?

26 A. It certainly is, yes.

27 30 Q. All right. We actually accept that?

28 A. Yes.

29 31 Q. And we will of course reflect that in any decision

9
 1 which we have to take; of course. That however puts

2 us in somewhat of a difficulty because it would

3 be not unfair to the late Mr. McGonagle to say that

4 his name crops up on a number of occasions through

5 the course of our investigation?

6 A. Yes.

7 32 Q. Both as a solicitor and as an individual?

8 A. Yes.

9 33 Q. I think that...(INTERJECTION)?

10 A. I haven't seen...(INTERJECTION).

11 34 Q. You have not seen it; all right?

12 A. I have seen some.

13 35 Q. All right. The problem which we are faced with is:

14 We must identify the clients of the Company we are

15 investigating?

16 A. Yes.

17 36 Q. Which is "Ansbacher"?

18 A. Yes.

19 37 Q. We are not investigating Mr. McGonagle?

20 A. Yes.

21 38 Q. We are not investigating you?

22 A. Yes.

23 39 Q. We are not investigating anybody?

24 A. Yes.

25 40 Q. We were investigating the Company?

26 A. Yes.

27 41 Q. However, one of the jobs that has been given to us

28 is that we must identify the clients of the Company.

29 A. Right, yes, yes.

10
 1 42 Q. Obviously, we have to consider whether Mr. McGonagle

2 was a client of "Ansbacher" or not?

3 A. Yes.

4 43 Q. Do you know whether he was or not; directly or

5 indirectly?

6 A. He never told me.

7 44 Q. Yes?

8 A. But I did obviously advise him in a number of

9 respects in connection with a visit to a Tribunal

10 and...(INTERJECTION).

11 45 Q. I do not want to...(INTERJECTION)?

12 A. And also...(INTERJECTION).

13 46 Q. I do not want to...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. I also advised him. So, I am not sure if I

15 can answer that.

16 47 Q. I do not want any information which you got

17 exclusively from giving him advice?

18 A. Yes.

19 48 Q. I do not want that information?

20 A. Yes.

21 4 9 Q. That would be improper and I do not want that

22 information?

23 A. Yes.

24 50 Q. Other than that are you aware of any such

25 connection?

26 A. He would never have told me.

27 51 Q. Yes, yes. Do you know for example of the existence

28 of a company called Camille Investments Ltd?

29 A. Yes, I have heard the name.

11
 1 52 Q. Yes. Had you any connection yourself with the

2 Company?

3 A. No, no, but I knew it was an investment company

4 of Liam's.

5 53 Q. Of Liam's?

6 A. Yes.

7 54 Q. Did he own it himself?

8 A. He did.

9 55 Q. He did, yes, yes. It may have been, the shares may

10 have been, in different person's names from time to

11 time but I think he was the beneficial owner at all

12 times?

13 A. I would have thought so, yes.

14 56 Q. Yes?

15 A. I don't think they were in anybody else's name.

16 57 Q. They may?

17 A. But I may...(INTERJECTION).

18 58 Q. They may have been but...(INTERJECTION)?

19 A. I mean I wouldn't necessarily know.

20 59 Q. Yes, yes. I will just show you a letter of the

21 30th March 1988, Exhibit 2?

22 A. Yes.

23 60 Q. Which I think is Mr. McGonagle's own acknowledgement

24 that he owns the Company?

25 A. Right, yes.

26 61 Q. Because obviously unless we know who owned the

27 Company we could not proceed on any basis

28 (Same Handed), Exhibit 3?

29 A. Yes, right. Yes, that seems clear.

12
 1 62 Q. It seems clear enough?

2 A. Yes, it does, yes.

3 63 Q. And I mean I am just giving you an opportunity of

4 looking at it?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 64 Q. In case you say, "That is all wrong. He only did

7 that because of X, Y or Z"?

8 A. No.

9 65 Q. All right. There are two other pieces of evidence

10 which I want to put to you as a person who might

11 know something about it?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 66 Q. And, of course, I accept you might not also know

14 anything about it as well?

15 A. Yes .

16 67 Q. However, I think in fairness to the late

17 Mr. McGonagle somebody had better be told about

18 these pieces of information because otherwise

19 it would be quite improper and I think you are

20 the appropriate person. There is an internal

21 memo dated the 16th August 1978. When I say it

22 is "internal" it is internal to Guinness Mahon

23 Ireland (Same Handed)?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 68 Q. You may have already seen that in another context.

26 I am not sure whether you have or not?

27 A. I probably have seen this before.

28 69 Q. You probably have seen it?

29 A. Yes .
 1 70 Q. There are three matters that I want to point out

2 to you there. Mr. Turvey: Would you explain who

3 Mr. Turvey is to me?

4 A. He is a friend of Liam McGonagle's.

5 71 Q. Yes?

6 A. Was a friend, yes.

7 72 Q. Yes. Is he an accountant or is he...(INTERJECTION)?

8 A. He is an accountant; he is.

9 73 Q. Is he?

10 A. Yes.

11 74 Q. Yes?

12 A. Though he has't...(INTERJECTION).

13 75 Q. Has he a Haughey Boland background

14 or...(INTERJECTION)?

15 A. No, he hasn't. He has always -- I don't think he

16 has ever practised as a professional accountant.

17 He has always been in business.

18 76 Q. Yes?

19 A. And -- but he was a friend of Liam's since -- from

20 his school days.

21 77 Q. Yes. He seemed to have carriage of a lot of matters

22 relating to Camille Investments Ltd over the years?

23 A. They were very friendly.

24 78 Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge?

25 A. Well, they were friendly, you know?

26 79 Q. Yes?

27 A. And...(INTERJECTION).

28 80 Q. However, do you know whether he had a lot of

29 involvement in Camille Investments?

14
 1 A. I think Liam would have relied on him from time

2 to time, yes.

3 81 Q. From time to time?

4 A. Yes.

5 82 Q. Yes?

6 A. Yes.

7 83 Q. There are two other matters I want to refer to you:

8 Do you see the expression:

10 "This is a suitably secured situation"?

11

12 A. Yes.

13 84 Q. We have been informed by Guinness & Mahon that

14 "suitably secured" in that context means the

15 following: That money was being borrowed and

16 it was being borrowed on a back-to-back basis

17 against money which was on deposit outside this

18 jurisdiction. That may have been the North of

19 Ireland. It may have been the Channel Islands?

20 A. Yes.

21 85 Q. Or it may have been the Cayman Islands?

22 A. Yes.

23 8 6 Q. Do you know whether Camille Investments had

24 any such money of your own knowledge?

25 A. I would be very surprised if it had.

26 87 Q. Yes?

27 A. I would be -- Camille Investments was an Irish

28 company.

29 88 Q. Yes?

15
 1 A. So, I don't think Camille would have had any

2 funds outside of the jurisdiction.

3 89 Q. Yes?

4 A. But again I can't be certain.

5 90 Q. Yes, I understand?

6 A. But I would be very surprised.

7 91 Q. If it was being backed by funds outside the

8 jurisdiction they were probably held in another

9 name?

10 A. That's a possibility.

11 92 Q. Yes. Because you can see in the bottom that it

12 says :

13

14 "In the meantime I have asked E.McL.

to hold dollars in excess of 300,000.00
15 held on deposit from G.M.C.T to our
order."
16

17

18 A. Yes .

19 93 Q. One of the conclusions the Inspectors might draw

20 from that and of course they can be persuaded to

21 draw a different conclusion if that is appropriate?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 94 Q. One of the conclusions they might draw from it is

24 that Camille Investments and its owner had access

25 to backing deposits in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust,

26 which was an earlier name of "Ansbacher". Do you

27 have any information to confirm or dissuade us from

28 adopting that course of action?

29 A. I would be I suppose giving privileged information

16
 1 if I were to do otherwise...(INTERJECTION).

2 95 Q. I am not interested in the privileged information.

3 Other than privileged information...(INTERJECTION)?

4 A. I am...(INTERJECTION).

5 96 Q. You can forget you know privileged information?

6 A. I am...(INTERJECTION).

7 97 Q. Forget that?

8 A. I...(INTERJECTION).

9 98 Q. You do not know?

10 A. I know I have come across the phrase "suitably

11 secured" on many occasions.

12 99 Q. Yes?

13 A. I know how Guinness & Mahon interpret that phrase.

14 100 Q. Yes?

15 A. I am not sure that it was always interpreted --

16 it always reflected the actual position. I have

17 come across situations where I think it might have

18 been convenient for Mr. Traynor to say to his

19 lending committee, "This is adequately secured".

20 101 Q. Yes, I understand. Yes?

21 A. Whereas in fact it wasn't but he would have known

22 the borrower and would have been quite happy. Now,

23 I cannot give you any instances off the top of my

24 head of that but I certainly have come across one

25 or two instances of that.

26 102 Q. Yes. However, Mr. O'Shea, that line of "Defence"

27 hardly passes muster in this case when in the course

28 of the same memo there is a specific request?

29 A. Yes .
 1 103 Q. To set aside 300,000 US dollars, presumably

2 US dollars, which are apparently in G.M.C.T?

3 A. Indeed.

4 104 Q. So, I think that "Defence" which might be open

5 to some people hardly applies to this document?

6 A. Right, indeed.

7 105 Q. You see the point I am making; that is all I am

8 saying?

9 A. I see the point you are making of course.

10 106 Q. All right, grand. The third piece of evidence

11 that we have which would indicate a connection

12 between Camille Investments Ltd and "Ansbacher",

13 and therefore of course indirectly with

14 Mr. McGonagle, is a memo dated or a letter dated

15 the 11th March 1990 from Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe to

16 Mr. Traynor and there is a Schedule attached to

17 that. I think in the case of Mr. O'Shea you can

18 Mr. O'Shea, I am treating you as a solicitor in

19 this regard: I am going to give you the complete

20 document which includes the names of other people

21 (Same Handed), Exhibit 4?

22 A. Certainly, you can take that...(INTERJECTION).

23 107 Q. However, I mean you have to undertake to me not

24 to...(INTERJECTION)?

25 A. Yes .

26 108 Q. To abide by confidence in that regard?

27 A. Yes, yes.

28 109 Q. Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe has informed another person,

29 and will in due course no doubt inform us also,

 1 that this Schedule was produced by him for

2 Mr. Traynor and it was a Schedule of "suitably

3 secured" loans?

4 A. Yes.

5 110 Q. Persons who had loans through "Ansbacher" that were

6 "suitably secured"?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 111 Q. And they included a number of persons including

9 Liam McGonagle?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 112 Q. All right?

12 A. Yes, clearly the case, yes.

13 113 Q. Yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 114 Q. Have you any comment to make on that?

16 A. It could be for a number of factors. I can't --

17 obviously it would be speculation -- I think you

18 can speculate; I think may be correctly. I have

19 seen a number of these (indicating), Exhibit 4.

20 115 Q. I can only go on what Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe says?

21 A. Yes.

22 116 Q. That is all I can go on?

23 A. Yes.

24 117 Q. Because I...(INTERJECTION)?

25 A. Yes.

26 118 Q. It means nothing to me. All it is is a Schedule?

27 A. Yes, yes.

28 119 Q. If Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe said to me, which I

29 anticipate he will not because he has said it

19
 1 differently to another person, but if he in due

2 course says to me, "Well, I don't know what

3 that list is"?

4 A. Yes.

5 120 Q. Well, then I will have to take it to out of my

6 reckoning; do you understand?

7 A. Yes.

8 121 Q. However, if he says what I anticipate he is going

9 to say?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 122 Q. There can be only one conclusion surely; that

12 conclusion is that Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe

13 thought that...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. That these were...(INTERJECTION).

15 123 Q. That Mr. McGonagle had a "suitably secured" loan?

16 A. Indeed, yes.

17 124 Q. Whether that proves it or not; that is a matter

18 of judgment afterwards?

19 A. This was a list of facilities made available by

20 Guinness & Mahon to the individuals.

21 125 Q. With backing?

22 A. With...(INTERJECTION).

23 126 Q. To "Ansbacher"?

24 A. Yes.

25 127 Q. As you will appreciate...(INTERJECTION)?

26 A. Yes.

27 128 Q. As you will appreciate if you look at the date,

28 the 11th May 1990, it can hardly be anything else?

29 MR. BARRY: That is a question you

20
 1 are asking, Michael, or

2 is that a statement you are making?

3 A. Well, I am...(INTERJECTION).

4 MR. BARRY: Are you saying that that

5 is a list (indicating),

6 Exhibit 4?

7 A. Well, no. I am assuming it is a list.

8 129 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. It is a list?

9 A. It is a list, yes.

10 MR. BARRY: So, it is a question?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. BARRY: Yes, right.

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. BARRY: It sounded like a

15 statement; sorry.

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE O'LEARY: I think coaching the

18 witness is neither

19 ethical.

20 MR. BARRY: Excuse me; I am sorry.

21 JUDGE O'LEARY: Or certainly necessary.

22 MR. BARRY: Excuse me.

23 JUDGE O'LEARY: With an expert witness

24 like this.

25 MR. BARRY: Sorry.

26 130 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: However, the reality of

27 the situation as you

28 will appreciate?

29 A. Yes.

21
 1 131 Q. Is that on the 11th May 1990 Mr. Traynor no

2 longer had any connection with Guinness & Mahon?

3 A. That is right.

4 132 Q. And he is addressed in the letter as being

5 Mr. J. D. Traynor of "Ansbacher" Limited?

6 A. Yes.

7 133 Q. So, we can take it that it has an "Ansbacher"

8 connection?

9 A. I ... (INTERJECTION) .

10 134 Q. We can take it that Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe thought

11 it had an "Ansbacher" connection?

12 A. Thought -- well, perhaps he did, yes. Perhaps

13 he did.

14 135 Q. Yes. That is a matter that...(INTERJECTION)?

15 A. Now, I know from talking to Liam that Liam had

16 always had the assets of Camille securing any

17 borrowings he had personally.

18 136 Q. Yes?

19 A. And including also the Deeds to No. 29 Molesworth

20 Street.

21 137 Q. All right?

22 A. And insofar as Liam was concerned that was security

23 that they held.

24 138 Q. Yes, I understand that?

25 A. And if there was anything in "Ansbacher" it wasn't

26 necessary.

27 139 Q. That may well be the case?

28 A. Now...(INTERJECTION).

29 140 Q. However, we have found many examples of that?

22
 1 A. Indeed.

2 141 Q. Many examples of that?

3 A. But certainly No. 29 Molesworth Street -- I am

4 not sure had it been sold at that time or not but

5 it was substantially more than the borrowing than

6 was there (indicating), Exhibit 4, or the borrowing

7 figure there (indicating), Exhibit 4, and I think

8 also the other assets of Camille would have been in

9 the region of a few hundred thousand pounds. They

10 were basically investments and again they would have

11 been there as security. So, I don't know what else

12 or what other records Guinness & Mahon might have

13 in relation to that type of security.

14 142 Q. Yes?

15 A. And whether they would have considered that to

16 be adequately secured or not but I mean I hear

17 what you are saying, yes.

18 143 Q. You can take it that their evidence to us has been

19 that adequately secured means offshore?

20 A. Yes, offshore, yes, yes.

21 144 Q. It does not necessarily mean Cayman?

22 A. Yes .

23 145 Q. However, it means offshore?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 146 Q. All right. The last thing I want to show you in

26 the Camille mode of this is a document signed by

27 yourself apparently (Same Handed). Is that your

28 signature (indicating), Exhibit 5?

29 A. It is, yes. Yes, it is.

 1 147 Q. In what capacity did you sign that?

2 A. I have no idea.

3 148 Q. Whose signature is it underneath? There appear to

4 be two signatures on it?

5 A. Yes. That is Des Turvey's signature.

6 14 9 Q. Yes. That is the one which we have seen in many

7 documents dealing with Camille?

8 A. Yes.

9 150 Q. And we will of course in due course deal with

10 that with Mr. Turvey?

11 A. And that is Mr. Turvey.

12 151 Q. Who were not the auditors?

13 A. No. I haven't seen the Company's file. Was I

14 a Director at some stage of Camille?

15 152 Q. I do not know?

16 A. Yes.

17 153 Q. I am asking you?

18 A. I honestly...(INTERJECTION).

19 154 Q. You told me you had nothing to do with the Company.

20 A. I have...(INTERJECTION).

21 155 Q. And I am just saying to you that I have come across

22 this document (indicating), Exhibit 5?

23 A. I have no idea what -- why my signature is there

24 (indicating), Exhibit 5.

25 156 Q. I wonder if you would have a look at it yourself?

26 A. Yes.

27 157 Q. And if you can come up with any explanation?

28 A. Yes.

29 158 Q. That would be of assistance to us?

24
 2 159 Q. We would appreciate it?

3 A. Yes. It is clearly a request to the bank to provide

4 information to Haughey Boland but I cannot tell you

5 in what capacity I signed that (indicating),

6 Exhibit 5.

7 160 Q. Do you see that the document itself says you signed

8 as an authorised signature?

9 A. Yes.

10 161 Q. Were you an authorised signature for that Company?

11 A. I don't believe so.

12 162 Q. Yes. I have come across no information that you in

13 fact were an authorised signature of the Company?

14 A. Yes.

15 163 Q. However, I wonder would you look at it?

16 A. Yes.

17 164 Q. And see whether there is any further information

18 you can give us as a result of your investigations?

19 A. I will certainly check to see was I a Director

20 at that stage.

21 165 Q. Exactly?

22 A. Yes.

23 166 Q. I wonder would you do that?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 167 Q. I think it would be of assistance to us if you

26 did that?

27 A. Certainly, yes.

28 168 Q. All right?

29 A. Yes.

25
 1 169 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about

2 Mr. McGonagle's involvement in any other

3 companies with "Ansbacher" connections other

4 than in a...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. Professional?

6 170 Q. Yes; professional capacity?

7 A. I don't think so. Other than in a professional

8 capacity, no.

9 171 Q. Yes. I am not interested...(INTERJECTION)?

10 A. Not that I --

11 172 Q. Yes?

12 A. I mean a number of companies have come up certainly.

13 173 Q. Yes?

14 A. If you...(INTERJECTION).

15 174 Q. Was he involved in a company called Pine Securities?

16 A. No.

17 175 Q. No?

18 A. He wasn't.

19 176 Q. Was he involved in a company called Beresford

20 Investments?

21 A. I believe he was.

22 177 Q. Yes. Were you involved in the Company called

23 Beresford Investments?

24 A. No, but I remember it through the office. I

25 think it bought and sold a property and I think

26 lost a small amount of money in the process.

27 178 Q. Yes. Do you know who the beneficial owners of

28 that Company were?

29 A. I think there were a number of individuals.

26
 1 179 Q. Including Mr. McGonagle?

2 A. Including, yes.

3 180 Q. Yes. Were you a beneficial owner of the Company?

4 A. No.

5 181 Q. That also, according to the records of GMI and

6 that is all I am talking about is the records

7 of GMI?

8 A. Yes.

9 182 Q. Had a "suitably secured" loan?

10 A. Yes, I have seen those.

11 183 Q. You have seen those?

12 A. Yes.

13 184 Q. I have no knowledge as to what that "suitably

14 secured" loan was. I do not have the same knowledge

15 as I have in the case of the previous one that I put

16 to you; do you understand?

17 A. Yes.

18 185 Q. Yes. Were you familiar with a company called

19 British Isle Investments?

20 A. I have heard the name.

21 186 Q. Yes. Were you an owner of that Company yourself?

22 A. No.

23 187 Q. Had you any interest in the Company?

24 A. None, none.

25 188 Q. Did Mr. McGonagle have an interest in the Company?

26 A. That would be again information I would have

27 gleaned from Mr. McGonagle.

28 189 Q. In a professional capacity?

29 A. In a professional capacity, yes.

27
 1 190 Q. However, other than that information?

2 A. Other than that I wouldn't know.

3 191 Q. You would not know?

4 A. No, I wouldn't know.

5 192 Q. However, British Isle Investments Company or

6 whatever the precise name of it was?

7 A. Yes.

8 193 Q. Was a very famous Company?

9 A. Yes.

10 194 Q. I mean it had been the subject of much speculation?

11 A. Indeed. I think I...(INTERJECTION).

12 195 Q. So, I mean it is not just like a...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. I think I -- yes, I think I know what you are

14 referring to.

15 196 Q. Yes. In the United Kingdom?

16 A. That is right, yes.

17 197 Q. There was a company investigation?

18 A. There was.

19 198 Q. And British Isle Investments was at the very centre

20 of that company investigation?

21 A. Yes, that is right.

22 199 Q. Surely at that time quite separate from any advice

23 which you gave him in later life...(INTERJECTION)?

24 A. Well, I remember a little bit about that. There

25 were two UK --

26 200 Q. Yes?

27 A. There were two British property developers that

28 Liam had a business relationship with. We -- I

29 think they were involved in a US public -- sorry,

28
 1 a UK company called Norwest Hoist Ltd and I think

2 it was in that context that the inquiry arose but

3 I didn't know -- I never knew the details of the

4 inquiry.

5 201 Q. I can assure you I have no interest in the details

6 of the inquiry?

7 A. I know there was a suggestion that in some way

8 they had taken money out of Norwest Hoist and --

9 but I never knew the...(INTERJECTION).

10 202 Q. However, was not the fact of Mr. McGonagle and

11 this British Isle Investments Company central

12 to the issue to be deciding in that inquiry

13 in England and did they not come to Dublin to

14 interview Mr. McGonagle?

15 A. I wasn't aware of that. I thought he hadn't been

16 interviewed but...(INTERJECTION).

17 203 Q. No, he had not?

18 A. Yes.

19 204 Q. Because when they came to Dublin he refused to

20 be interviewed?

21 A. I see, I see. All right.

22 205 Q. However, you surely must have known that?

23 A. It is just that I have heard the name but whether

24 it was a company that was solely controlled by

25 these two English property developers or with

26 Liam McGonagle I don't know.

27 206 Q. Yes?

28 A. It -- I am not sure what the results of the

29 inquiry were either but the...(INTERJECTION).

29
 1 207 Q. Yes, I see. However, you do not know anything

2 about that Company as such?

3 A. Other than in the context of professional advice,

4 no.

5 208 Q. Yes?

6 A. I mean I was aware vaguely of the inquiry.

7 209 Q. Yes?

8 A. But I can't say I know anything about it.

9 210 Q. Yes. On the question of professional advice:

10 Ms. Cummins mentions to me, and it is quite true,

11 that the recent law on that matter seems to

12 differentiate between information which a solicitor

13 gets while acting for a Client with regard to who

14 owns a company on the one hand?

15 A. Yes .

16 211 Q. And the advice that he or she tenders to that person

17 arising from that consultation?

18 A. Yes .

19 212 Q. And that all seems to have come down in favour of a

20 solicitor not being able to exercise privilege with

21 regard to information with regard for example to the

22 ownership of a company?

23 A. Well, I think they...(INTERJECTION).

24 213 Q. Is that not the current state of the law?

25 A. I thought it was -- I mean I bow to your knowledge

26 in that regard, Judge.

27 214 Q. Yes?

28 A. But I did look at Judge Kelly's decision in the

29 Miley -v- Miley case and he clearly said there you

30
 1 cannot -- you must disclose the name of your client

2 215 Q. Yes?

3 A. And he decided, or he confirmed I think the legal

4 position, that legal assistance isn't privileged.

5 Legal advice is, which I think is the sort of

6 language he used.

7 216 Q. Any way, Mr. O'Shea, I am not going down that road;

8 I can assure you?

9 A. Yes .

10 217 Q. Because with regard to Mr. McGonagle I certainly

11 have enough information to be able to make a

12 decision whether or not he was a client of

13 "Ansbacher"?

14 A. Okay, indeed.

15 218 Q. I may be a bit deficient with regard to being

16 able to precisely define the extent to which he

17 was a client?

18 A. Okay, yes.

19 219 Q. However, I do not think that is sufficiently

20 important to my investigation of "Ansbacher"

21 for me to go to the scaffold over it?

22 A. Indeed, yes.

23 220 Q. Do you understand what I mean?

24 A. Indeed.

25 221 Q. If it was necessary and if it was a matter of

26 life or death I would pursue the matter further

27 with you but I am not interested in pursuing

28 the matter further with you at this stage for

29 that reason?
 1 A. Very well.

2 222 Q. All right?

3 A. Thank you.

4 223 Q. I come now to the question of the relationship

5 between "Ansbacher" and your company?

6 A. Yes .

7 224 Q. A firm of solicitors?

8 A. Yes .

9 225 Q. And we have received your statement in that regard?

10 A. Yes .

11 226 Q. And it is helpful and thank you very much indeed

12 for the statement, Exhibit 6. It is of considerable

13 assistance to us. We know that your company acted

14 for Cayman International Bank & Trust Company

15 Limited, which was another of the names of

16 "Ansbacher"?

17 A. Yes .

18 227 Q. And really we are not interested in that. We

19 really have no concerns with regard to that.

20 You are entitled to act for those people if

21 you want. However, we are interested in the

22 1993 situation?

23 A. Yes .

24 228 Q. About this fee apparently that was paid by a UK

25 Client of the firm. What was the amount of that

26 approximately? I do not want the...(INTERJECTION)?

27 A. Approximately £40,000.

28 229 Q. £40,000, yes. Do you know how long it was invested

29 somewhere?
 1 A. I would hazard a guess and say a number of months;

2 may be up to five or six months perhaps.

3 230 Q. Yes?

4 A. May be shorter.

5 231 Q. Yes. If I was to tell you that our information is

6 that it was in Hamilton Ross rather than Kentford

7 would you know whether that is right or wrong?

8 A. I won't.

9 232 Q. Yes?

10 A. I know the payment came from Kentford.

11 233 Q. Yes. However, I think Kentford was merely a

12 device used for making payments?

13 A. May be so, yes.

14 234 Q. Do you understand?

15 A. May be so, yes.

16 235 Q. It was not an investment vehicle?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 236 Q. Insofar as we have been able to ascertain?

19 A. Yes.

20 237 Q. Kentford was the mechanism by which money was paid

21 to Irish people?

22 A. Yes.

23 238 Q. From money which had been abroad; do you understand

24 what I mean?

25 A. Yes, I do, yes.

26 239 Q. Yes. That was...(INTERJECTION)?

27 A. I do, yes.

28 240 Q. So, as far as you were concerned it was Kentford?

29 A. Yes.

33
 1 241 Q. Do you remember the circumstances in which it was

2 put where-ever it was put; leaving aside for the

3 moment where it was put?

4 A. I think it was probably Liam's idea.

5 242 Q. Yes?

6 A. To route it through Des Traynor.

7 243 Q. Yes?

8 A. And Liam possibly mentioned it to me.

9 244 Q. Yes?

10 A. In any event it happened.

11 245 Q. Yes?

12 A. And subsequently payments were made by Kentford.

13 246 Q. Yes. Were you familiar at that time with where it

14 was going yourself?

15 A. No, I had no idea.

16 247 Q. You had no idea?

17 A. I had no idea.

18 248 Q. When you say it was "Des Traynor" do you think

19 it was coming to Des Traynor in Ireland or it

20 was coming to Des Traynor where?

21 A. Well... (INTERJECTION) .

22 249 Q. Or did you know?

23 A. Obviously, I knew of Des's connection with

24 Guinness & Mahon. I didn't give it any thought

25 as to what other banking connections he had.

26 Obviously, at that time he was no longer in

27 Guinness & Mahon.

28 250 Q. I mean he had left Guinness & Mahon at that stage

29 for five years?

34
 1 A. That is true, that is true, but in any event he

2 was happy to facilitate Liam and did and I didn't

3 really think very much about it one way or the

4 other.

5 251 Q. Yes. You are not familiar, are you, with whether

6 or not -- it was then eventually brought into this

7 Country. The money was brought into this Country,

8 was it, and distributed between you?

9 A. It was distributed to the partners, it was.

10 252 Q. And where did it end up? Did it end up in the

11 firm's account or where did it end up?

12 A. No, it ended up in the partner's account.

13 253 Q. In...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. Individually.

15 254 Q. Within the firm?

16 A. Individually.

17 255 Q. Individually?

18 A. Yes, individually.

19 256 Q. Individually, yes, I see. Was it expected that the

20 partners would make whatever returns were necessary

21 arising out of that?

22 A. Yes.

23 257 Q. Yes?

24 A. Well, if they were doing it, yes.

25 258 Q. Yes?

26 A. Yes.

27 259 Q. And was this money earned abroad

28 or...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. It was earned abroad.

35
 1 260 Q. Earned abroad?

2 A. Yes, it was a UK Client as I recall.

3 261 Q. Yes, I see, I see. Do you remember the time of

4 the year in 1993 that you received that money?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 262 Q. I wonder could you find that out for us?

7 A. I could.

8 263 Q. Yes?

9 A. Yes, I could. I think there may be some

10 correspondence.

11 264 Q. Yes. Well, that is fair enough?

12 A. But I will certainly see if I can find that out.

13 265 Q. Yes. That would be of assistance to us?

14 A. Yes.

15 266 Q. It always seems to us that there was a small balance

16 remaining in Hamilton Ross after the payment was

17 made even as late as the 31st December 1993 of

18 some £1,240?

19 A. I think there was. I think that may have been

20 interest.

21 267 Q. Yes?

22 A. Which was subsequently divided again.

23 268 Q. At a later date?

24 A. At a later date.

25 269 Q. Yes. I wonder would you just give us the dates

26 of those?

27 A. Certainly.

28 270 Q. It would be of considerable assistance to us?

29 A. Yes.

36
 1 271 Q. All right?

2 A. Okay.

3 272 Q. Thank you very much indeed. That is grand.

4 Have I -- from time to time -- as you say in

5 your statement, Exhibit 6: On one occasion you

6 respected the firm and I am not concerned about

7 that November 1993 instruction that you received.

8 Had you ever acted for the Firm before that?

9 A. No, not to my knowledge.

10 273 Q. No, not to your knowledge?

11 A. Yes .

12 274 Q. I see, okay. Had you ever received money from the

13 Firm before that?

14 A. No.

15 275 Q. All right. We have, I have, two other documents

16 to show you. One really is and I want to explain

17 its frailty to you because I do not like making

18 claims for documents that I cannot stand over, as

19 you will appreciate. This is a document at page 28,

20 Ms. Cummins, please (Same Handed), Exhibit 7?

21 A. Thanks.

22 276 Q. This is a memo from Mr. Traynor to Mr. O'Dwyer?

23 A. Yes .

24 277 Q. They were both working in Guinness & Mahon at

25 the time?

26 A. Yes .

27 278 Q. On the face of it it looks just like a

28 Guinness & Mahon payment?

29 A. Yes .
 1 279 Q. There are however if you like two aspects of

2 the matter which give rise to some possibility,

3 and I am not putting it any stronger than that,

4 of an "Ansbacher" connection. One is the fact

5 that it was a sterling draft?

6 A. Yes .

7 280 Q. Which was a little unusual if the money was

8 in Ireland in ordinary circumstances, and secondly

9 Redshank Investments. Have you heard of that

10 Company?

11 A. I have heard of that again in a professional

12 capacity, yes.

13 281 Q. Yes. That Redshank Investments, the Inspectors

14 believe, had a connection with McGonagle. The

15 Inspectors believe that?

16 A. Yes .

17 282 Q. We are not asking you to confirm or deny that?

18 A. Yes .

19 283 Q. And that it may well have had an "Ansbacher"

20 connection?

21 A. Yes .

22 284 Q. Do you know anything about that payment?

23 A. I have a vague memory I have to say.

24 285 Q. Yes?

25 A. But only that. I can't say in what context it is.

26 The other people named were partners in the firm.

27 So, it may be in that context that this payment

28 was made but I cannot...(INTERJECTION).

29 286 Q. It is like as if it is a division of some money

38
 1 between partners in the Firm with Mr. McGonagle's

2 section going to Redshanks?

3 A. Indeed.

4 287 Q. Is that not what it looks like?

5 A. Indeed.

6 288 Q. The source of that fund, of those funds, are a

7 cause of concern to us. I wonder would you

8 think about that?

9 A. I will, yes.

10 289 Q. And would you revert to us with regard to that?

11 A. Yes, I will.

12 290 Q. I do not want to...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. I can't recall now.

14 291 Q. Yes, I understand?

15 A. Yes.

16 292 Q. I understand that?

17 A. Yes.

18 293 Q. However, it may be worth while thinking about it?

19 A. Yes.

20 294 Q. All right?

21 A. Certainly.

22 295 Q. The difficulty about this payment as far as we are

23 concerned is that it mentions you by name rather

24 than the Firm?

25 A. Indeed, yes.

26 296 Q. Of course we have to be very careful and we will

27 be very careful and certainly we will be very

28 careful in respect of any payment of £1,650?

29 A. Yes.

39
 1 297 Q. Which is not even in 1984 an amazing sum of money?

2 A. Yes .

3 298 Q. However, at the same time we have to satisfy

4 ourselves that it does not have an "Ansbacher"

5 connection?

6 A. Yes, indeed.

7 299 Q. So, any assistance you can give us in that regard?

8 A. Fine, yes.

9 300 Q. Otherwise we may have to go and investigate it.

10 We have not really investigated it that much at

11 this stage?

12 A. Yes, okay.

13 301 Q. However, if you can satisfy us so be it?

14 A. Very well.

15 302 Q. We will just let it stand at that; all right?

16 A. Certainly.

17 303 Q. All right. That is one -- you might come back to

18 us on that, Mr. O'Shea?

19 A. Yes, I will.

20 304 Q. The other thing is this: I wonder would you just

21 show Mr. O'Shea number 2 9 as well (Same Handed),

22 Exhibit 8? That has -- that shows Redshank

23 Investments as being a Client of College Trustees.

24 You can take it that at that stage our information

25 is that College Trustees' funds, not necessarily all

26 of them but many of the College Trustees' funds

27 which they had invested for clients, were routed

28 for some inexplicable reason through "Ansbacher"?

29 A. Yes, I see.
 1 305 Q. So, here you have a situation where we know that

2 Redshank Investments Limited was a College Trustee

3 client. We know that in 1985, which was the year

4 after that, it had informed various parties with

5 regard to the Registered Office and we know that

6 Redshank Investments is connected with the 1984

7 payment. We are of the belief but we cannot

8 mathematically prove it at this stage that Redshank

9 Investments was a Liam McGonagle company but we

10 believe that to be the case. Putting all of

11 those things together we had a certain concern?

12 A. Yes .

13 306 Q. And I will not put it any stronger than that;

14 all right?

15 A. Yes .

16 307 Q. The only other document I want to show you,

17 Mr. O'Shea, is this: It is a 18th May 1992

18 document. It is page 30 (Same Handed), Exhibit 9?

19 A. Thanks.

20 308 Q. That does not appear in your statement, Exhibit 6?

21 A. No, and I have no recollection of it.

22 309 Q. Yes?

23 A. I have no idea what it is for.

24 310 Q. I wonder would it be an earlier part of the £40,000

25 even though the £40,000 was there in December 1992?

26 Could it have been £50,000 and could this be £10,000

27 of it?

28 A. I don't think so.

29 311 Q. You do not think so?

 1 A. No, I don't think so.

2 312 Q. You think it is separate from that. You do note

3 that they are talking about "Ansbacher" Limited?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 313 Q. Rather than Hamilton Ross?

6 A. Yes.

7 314 Q. However, you can take it that Hamilton Ross and

8 "Ansbacher" were interchangeable?

9 A. Indeed, yes.

10 315 Q. Names used by these parties?

11 A. Yes, indeed, yes.

12 316 Q. And I would not attach too much significance to

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 317 Q. However, you can see that it is a payment not to

16 Mr. McGonagle?

17 A. Yes, Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh.

18 318 Q. But to Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh?

19 A. Yes, I can see that. I can see that. I am --

20 I have no idea what for.

21 319 Q. I wonder could you investigate that? There is

22 bound to be a record of that somewhere?

23 A. Yes.

24 320 Q. It is only 1992?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I agree.

26 321 Q. Yes?

27 A. I agree.

28 322 Q. I wonder could you give us an explanation of that?

29 A. Certainly, okay.

42
 1 323 Q. Have you any memory of it yourself?

2 A. None. Not at this point in time any way I don't

3 but I certainly will -- I mean we can check our

4 ledgers and find out from that; hopefully find

5 out from that.

6 324 Q. You see could I explain where we are going,

7 Mr. O'Shea?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 325 Q. So that everybody understands where we are?

10 A. Yes.

11 326 Q. We will have to consider all the evidence as to

12 whether Mr. McGonagle was a Client of "Ansbacher"?

13 A. Yes.

14 327 Q. Obviously I cannot tell you what the result of that

15 conclusion will be?

16 A. Yes.

17 328 Q. However, let us assume for a working hypothesis at

18 the moment that we concluded that he was a Client

19 of "Ansbacher"?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 329 Q. We then have to separately consider whether

22 Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh were Clients of

23 "Ansbacher"?

24 A. Yes.

25 330 Q. It is a separate consideration?

26 A. Yes.

27 331 Q. And we are highly conscious of that?

28 A. Yes.

29 332 Q. Of keeping it separate?

43
 2 333 Q. So, that is why we are particularly honing in

3 on this (indicating), Exhibit 9?

4 A. And we can come back to you on that.

5 334 Q. Yes?

6 A. I will come back to you on that.

7 335 Q. Yes. All right. That would be great. I wonder

8 when you are coming back to us on that?

9 A. Yes.

10 336 Q. Would you do us the courtesy of when you are

11 writing to us in the letter would you put a note

12 at the bottom of the letter to say that, "This

13 can be included as part of my sworn testimony"?

14 A. Sure.

15 337 Q. Do you understand that?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 338 Q. That will enable us then not to have you to

18 come back to swear it again?

19 A. Fine, okay.

20 339 Q. Do you understand?

21 A. Certainly.

22 340 Q. I think that may will be in everyone's interest

23 to do that?

24 A. Certainly, okay.

25 341 Q. I wonder could you do that reasonably quickly

26 because we are getting to the end of this phase

27 of our inquiries?

28 A. Yes.

29 342 Q. And we are obviously anxious to tidy it up fairly

44
 1 quickly?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 343 Q. I think there is only one other thing that I have

4 to say to you and it is this: That Ms. Cummins had

5 a telephone call with you on the 27th February and

6 that is grand?

7 A. Yes.

8 344 Q. It was only a housekeeping telephone call?

9 A. Yes.

10 345 Q. There is no difficulty about it?

11 A. Right.

12 346 Q. However, the last sentence is:

13

14 "He also told me that Liam McGonagle

had arranged through Des Traynor for
15 a job to be done for the partners and
they were unaware of the extent of it
16 until relatively recently."

17

18 What were you referring to in that?

19 A. I presume we are referring to the payment in

20 1993 of the fee.

21 347 Q. Yes?

22 A. I presume that was it.

23 348 Q. Yes. Could it have been anything else?

24 A. I can't think of anything. No, it wouldn't

25 have been anything else.

26 349 Q. All right?

27 A. No.

28 350 Q. That is grand?

29 A. Yes.

45
 1 351 Q. I just wanted to check?

2 A. Yes, that is my...(INTERJECTION).

3 352 Q. That that was in fact the situation?

4 A. Yes, that is my recollection of it.

5 353 Q. That is your recollection?

6 A. But I mean you surprised me about that other payment

7 in 1984.

8 354 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?

9 A. No, I have...(INTERJECTION).

10 355 Q. In 1984 or 1992? Which is more surprising to you?

11 A. No the -- not that one (indicating). The other

12 one in 1984 I think.

13 356 Q. 1984?

14 A. Isn't it the memo?

15 357 Q. Yes, I see?

16 A. On the 5th September 1984, Exhibit 7.

17 358 Q. Yes?

18 A. I am surprised at that. I have no recollection

19 of that.

20 359 Q. You have no recollection of that at all. I do

21 understand how these things can happen?

22 A. Yes.

23 360 Q. Without you having a recollection of them?

24 A. Yes.

25 361 Q. However, I wonder whatever about the 1984 one

26 which is mildly suspicious?

27 A. Yes.

28 362 Q. The 1992 one is a positive connection?

29 A. Yes.

46
 1 363 Q. Which has to be explained?

2 A. Sure.

3 364 Q. I mean that is the position?

4 A. Yes, okay.

5 365 Q. All right?

6 A. Well, we can hopefully get that explanation from

7 you.

8 366 Q. Ms. Mackey?

9 MS. MACKEY: No, no questions.

10 JUDGE O'LEARY: Mr. O'Shea, thank you

11 very much indeed.

12 A. Thank you.

13 367 Q. That is actually everything we have to say to you

14 and thank you very much for all your cooperation

15 and we appreciate it greatly. We would appreciate

16 early replies. It would facilitate us greatly if

17 you could do that?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 368 Q. Obviously part of the process is the signing of

20 the transcript?

21 A. Yes.

22 369 Q. Because it is included in the Legislation?

23 A. Yes, yes. I mean obviously...(INTERJECTION).

24 370 Q. So, in due course Ms. Cummins will be in

25 touch with your firm and you can make the

26 necessary arrangements?

27 A. So, I mean I can come in to sign it whenever

28 it is ready.

29 371 Q. All right?

47
1 A. Thank you.

2 372 Q. And copies of the transcript can be got for a

3 payment of?

4 MS. CUMMINS: £60.

5 JUDGE O'LEARY: Of £60.

6 A. Yes.

7 373 Q. All right?

8 A. Thank you.

9 374 Q. Thank you very much indeed.

10 A. Thank you.

11

12 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

48
^ C ."'VXCA
Appendix XV (28) (1) (b)
MICHAEL O'SHEA

I understand that I have been called to give evidence pursuant to the Inspectors'
powers set forth, inter alia, in Section 10(2) of the Companies Act, 1990.

I am here today because of the exercise of the Inspectors' right to compel my

attendance. I am not here voluntarily.

I am not prepared to answer questions voluntarily.

I understand the Inspectors have power toforce me answer their questions, provided
always the questions are within the scope of their investigation. AU answers I give
today are given as a result of the exercise of the Inspectors of their powers under
Section 10 anw <r such other statutory powers as they have to compel answers and not
otherwise.

I have asked the Inspectors not to exercise their power to compel my testimony. They
have insisted I answer all questions under compulsion of law.
 KENNEDY MCGONAGLE BALLAGH
Incorporating Bell Branican O'Donnell & O'Brien

s o l i c i t o r s
20 N O R T H U M B E R L A N D R O A D D U B L I N 4
T E L 660 9 7 0 9 F A X 6 6 0 9434
E M A I L : in to@k in b.ie
www.kmb.ie
5
The Office of the Inspectors appointed b>A££ Our ref: MO'S/DF
High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.
3 rd Floor
Trident House , . .
Blackrock 'i 1 -
Co Dublin

16 March 2001

Re: Ansbacher fCavmairt Limited f"the Company^

Dear Inspectors,

I have nad no J :'ungs personally with the Company. However I believe the Firm of
R>-nn«dy McGonagle Ballagh in which I am a oartner have had the following
dealings.

1. In November 1993 thefirm was instructed by Cayman International Bank and

Trust Company Limited to pursue a guarantor on foot of a guarantee given to
Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Limited on behalf of a Cayman registered
company called Coral Reef Securities Limited. Proceedings were instituted
against the guarantor and were ultimately settled. Our fee of £3,210 and
outlay was discharged by the Company. The Solicitor who handled this
matter for the Company was Kevin Barry.

2. Also in 1993 a fee paid by a UJK. client of the Finn was lodged by the partner
who acted for this client with the late J.D. Traynor and this fee was
subsequently paid to the partners including me through Kentford Securities
Limited. The partner who handled this matter was the late Liam D.
McGonagle who was a personal friend of the late J.D. Traynor. The U.K.
client was not a client of the Company and did not avail of any of the services
provided by the Company. I believe Mr. Traynor merely facilitated my late
partner, Liam D. McGonagle and neither he nor the Company nor Kentford
Securities were paid a fee for this service. —'

3. In 1995 the Firm advised the Company in connection with a loan granted to
Columbia Investments (an unlimited Irish registered company) and also in
respect of a guarantee and pledge agreement by Columbia Investments
Limited to the Company in respect of loans made by the Company to two
Cayman Island registered companies. The Company discharged our fee of
£6,750 and outlay for this work which was handled by Olivia McCann, a
former assistant in the Firm.
Mlt'i l.U.I.1. O'SIICA RtKifcR P. BAlJ-ltilt IliKI.NCi: II. DIXON KI.'VIN C. RUtHYfiOKiar.Jl I'x.l
ASSISTANTS: I IONA IIIINRV AUUIIA II. IAVI.CW
4. Also in 1995 the firm was instructed in relation to an application by the
Company to the High Court for leave to extend the time for filing Form 47
with the Companies Office in respect of the security referred to at 3 above.
The Company discharged ourfee of £400 plus outlayfor this work which was
again handled by Olivia McCann.

5. I have personally been involved in advising a number of clients who have had
or have a relationship with the Company and this advice has been given in the
context of McCracken and Moriarty Tribunals and statements and attendances
before you.

The Company ' :ct provided no service to me personally and I have not established
anv trust managed by the Company nor tn m* irnAwi»»/4rr»» ana t the beneficiary of any
trust managed by the Company. '

I have not deposited any money with the Company or with Guinness & Mahon
(Ireland) Limited however Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh hasfrom time to time used
the services of Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Limited. It has deposited the Finn's
money and clients' money with that Bankfrom time to time and during one or both of
the Bank strikes it used banking facilities provided by that Bank.

Guinness & Mahon has provided a normal commercial loan to the partners in the firm-
including me to fund the purchase of No. 18 Northumberland Road. This loan was
secured against the property purchased and our personal guarantees. It was not
secured on any funds held by the Company.

Apart from the service mentioned at 2 above, provided by Kentford Securities

Limited, no service has been provided to me by any of the other companies listed in
your letter namely, Amiens Securities Limited, Amiens Investments Limited, and
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited. The only services provided by Guinness &
Mahon (Ireland) Limited were those mentioned above in the preceding two
paragraphs.

No service has been provided to me by any of the companies mentioned in your letter
and established in the Channel Islands.

Yours faithfullv.
J . D . T . xo P.O'D. 5 th September, 1984.

Could you please lodge the attached cheque for

£8,250 Sterling to Sundry Persons and give *a four
Sterling drafts as follows: -
Michael O'Shea £1,650
T. mxon £1,650

Redshank
Investments »»«»
"ft 250

JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (28) (1) (e)
 College Trustees Limited

OKA/ 2nd May, 1985

B. M. Greffier.
Royal Court House,
St. Peter Poet,
Guernsey.

. » i
Dear Sir,

HEnstUUHK INVESTMENTS LIMITED \

The registered office and the post office box'number of the

above companies' was changed on 15th April, 1983. Xbe regis-
tered office is now situated atc-
Plataau Mignot,
Rue des Comets,
St. Peter Port, ,
Guernsey.
Correspondence should now be addressed to P.O. Box 223.
Xours faithfully,
for CO&USGB TRUSTEES LIMITED,

D. J, Barry
Director

P.O. Kmc 132. St. ;«II|U|* Gmrr. Julian"* Auntie. St. Pcitr Port,fluumwjf.Chaiuel TIUNB.

Tuiephhiii!: dimmy 3«HI T.-Ic-j.; IW-gl»itnil«i I CuMiurv <47*

 Please reply to:
42 ntzwdliam Square, Ansbacher Limited
Dublin 2. P.O. Box 387, Grand Ciymia. Omnia Mud* Bririah W«t r^^
Tel: 765144/763065 Tetephooa: (K») Tolas CP 4305
Fax 612035 Facdmile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-S267

18th Hay, 1992.

Ronaa Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Marrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
m.

Dear Konan,
Could you please arrange to let ne have for collection an Irish
Pounds cheque for IRfil0,000 payable to Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh
and debit the Starling coat to Ansbacher Limited Account
Ho. 02/01087/81.
7ours sincerely,

For ANSBACHER LIMITED

JDT/AJW
Aieamaori^AMssjuriujiaiaJHATOia^Tag^ WKHomea
Ai^LocAmMrBa^mmwaBromMUM*
cuataxr.wo)UooA»>>MnaLtHa Ut2-
Appendix XV (28) (1) (g)
| ' snr&wMm^

iVfiTT I).-1(-11pr- L i ill j tRfl

I 111,111

11 / 1 (I/'IV

CARRIED FORWARD
ANSBACHER LIMIT. ID
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A54

ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001642 PAGE 3

B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: sterl ing

0.00
37:549.59

37549.59
/
n ^ v i M M E C f i i i M ^ ^ r o

! 1 "' ' BROUGHT FORWARD

• " 1 t •./()'7n:i 1WAWM
• ' M" r; l \/!)')/<yj DRAWN

I:'/n':>/fr} DRAWN
I 3/09/93 DKAWN
•'•••<<•»•••». « 13/09/93 I H W 7 7 . H7
" • 1.3/09/93 IR^OOO.OO
•<,•, /-m 30/U9/93 I n t e r e s t t o 30/09/93

3O/0\>/°3
V CARRIED FORWARD
ANSBACHER LIMIT J }
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A5'»

ACCOUNT NUMBER 00001.6^2 PAGE 't

B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: ster 1 ing

39330.51
10050,00
6701.92
5075.00
5 "75. Of) 10036,59
/(590. on
37 C,h. 00 1682.51

2124.55
Appendix XV (28) (1) (h)
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Appendix XV (28) (2) (a)
 MASON HAYES & CURRAN
SOLICITORS

Office of the Inspectors appointed by the

High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited,
3 r d Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.

14 December 2001 YOUR REF: OUR REF: DM/PC

MATTER: Ansbacher

Dear Sirs,

We act for Mr. Terence Dixon, a partner in Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh, Solicitors, 20
Northumberland Road, Dublin 4 who has requested us to write to you in response to your
letter to him dated 23 November 2001.

Having considered the "Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions" we are at a loss as to how the
information (such as it is) or the reasoning (or lack of it) justifies the "Preliminary
Conclusions" reached.

What is clear is that Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh was due a fee and it was paid. The partner
to whom it was paid gave Mr. Desmond Traynor the money and in due course caused it to be
returned to the partner in a manner that divided it between himself and other partners.

It is said the monies, part of which were received by Mr. Dixon, came from Hamilton Ross or
an entity unknown to our client (a matter you assert but do not sustain by any evidence
disclosed). This does not prove your conclusions even if true (a matter not conceded or
accepted).

In short your "Preliminary Conclusions" that Mr. Dixon was a client of Ansbacher are ill
founded. This finding has been arrived at by you, without any evidence having been heard or
taken from our client which quite clearly is in breach of his constitutional rights and fair
procedure.

No proof whatsoever has been produced to show that Mr. Dixon was a client of Ansbacher.
He is not, and never was, a client of Ansbacher and indeed had no knowledge of that Bank,
nor the other companies mentioned. Even allowing for your apparent broad interpretation of

6 Fitzwilliam S q u a r e , D u b l i n 2, Ireland, D X 1 1 D u b l i n , Tel + 3 5 3 1 6 1 4 5 0 0 0 , Fax + 3 5 3 1 6 1 4 5 0 0 1 , w w w . m h c . i e , E-mail m a i l @ m h c . i e

Mauricc R. Curran, Maeve Hayes, Anthony Burke, Declan Moylan, Lorcan Buckley, Emer Gilvarry, Paul J. G. Egan, Colman P. Curran. Nora Larkin,
Declan Curran, Richard A. Woulfe, Kevin Hoy, Declan Black, Liam Brazil, Ailbhe Gilvarry, John Kettle, David O'Donncll, Niall Michel, Jnllil Kehoe, Peter Mclnncs
Senior Associates Niamh Clarke, Matthew Wales, Majella Dolan, Gillian McNamara, Shane MacSweenev, Susan Ryan J" a " i a . n c e wU
!!
' ' Carson McDowell
Consultants A. Dermot Mason, Conal J. Clancy, Rory L. Egan in B e l f a s t
"client", this word quite clearly has a specific meaning as defined in all the standard
dictionaries and under none of these definitions can Mr. Dixon be held to be a "client".

Therefore we require your confirmation by return that no such conclusion will appear in your
Report.

Yours faithfully,

r
MASON HAYES & CURRAN
Appendix XV (28) (2) (b)

T
 MASON HAYES & CURRAN
SOLICITORS

Office of the Inspectors appointed by the

High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited,
3 r d Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.

15 Januarv 2002 YOUR REF- OUR REF: DM/PC

MATTER: Ansbacher

Dear Sirs,

We write on behalf of Mr. Terence Dixon.

Thank you for your letter of 21 December 2001 in response to ours of 14 December 2001.

Your refusal to amend any part of your preliminary' conclusion is entirely unacceptable to our
client who is outraged by it.

Our client understands the pressures upon you to produce a final report. However, we must,
with respect, suggest that the treatment afforded our client is grossly unfair and does not
vindicate his rights in any respect.

Our client has never been called to give evidence before you and so far as we are aware the
sole communication he has been involved in with you is his letter of the 16 th March 2001
written in response to a request by you. The relevant portion of that letter is to be seen in
paragraph number 2 in which the following is said:-

"Also in 1993 a fee paid by a U.K. client of the Firm was lodged by the partner who
acted for this client with the late J.D. Traynor and this fee was subsequently paid to
the partners including me through Kentford Securities Limited. The partner who
handled this matter was the late Liam D. McGonagle who was a personal friend of
the late J.D. Traynor. The U.K. client was not a client of the Company and did not
avail of any of the services provided by the Company. I believe Mr. Traynor merely
facilitated my late partner Liam D. McGonagle and neither he nor the Company nor
Kentford Securities Limited were paid a fee for this service".

6 Fitzwilliam S q u a r e , D u b l i n 2 , I r e l a n d , D X 1 1 D u b l i n , Tel + 3 5 3 1 6 1 4 5 0 0 0 , F a x + 3 5 3 1 6 1 4 5 0 0 1 , w w w . m h c . i e , E-mail m a i l @ m h c . i e

Maurice R. Curran, Maeve Hayes, Anthony Burke, Declan Moylan, Lorcan Buckley, Emer Gilvarry, Paul J. G. Egan, Colman P. Curran, Nora Larkin,
Declan Curran, Richard A. Woulfe, Kevin Hon', Declan Black, Liam Brazil, Ailbhe Gilvarry, John Kettle, David O'Donncll, Niall Michel, John Kehoe, Peter Mc/nnes
an alliance with
Senior Associates Niamh Clarke, Matthew Wales, Majella Dolan, Gillian McNamara, Shane MacSweeney, Susan Ryan Carson McDowell
Consultants A. Dermot Mason, Conal J. Clancy, Rory L. Egan in Belfast
 Your preliminary conclusion is premised upon a narrative that states as follows :-

"Mr. Michael O'Shea, Mr. Roger P. Ballagh and Mr. Terence D. E. Dixon are
Solicitors in the firm of Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh, 20 Northumberland Road,
Dublin 4. Their involvement in Ansbacher arose out of their late partner's (Mr. Liam
McGonagle) long-term involvement in offshore banking.

During 1992, fees earned by the firm were deposited, at the suggestion of Mr.
McGonagle, with Mr. Desmond Traynor and ended up in an Ansbacher account. The
sum involved was £40,000 approximately. The money was left on deposit offshore for
some time and then shared out among the partners. The payments were made from a
Hamilton Ross account in Ansbacher. The IIB dealing tickets show that Mr. Ballagh
received over IR£11,530.00, Mr. O'Shea and Mr. Dixon received IR£6,243.00 each
/
"""s and the firm received IR£4,877.00 and a company controlled by the late Mr. Liam
McGonagle stg£6,701.00.

All the partners who shared in that fund were thus clients of Ansbacher. The
Inspectors' formal decision on the late Mr. McGonagle is to be found elsewhere in the
report".

It is said that the preliminary conclusion, which you stand by, is:

"Mr. Michael J. O'Shea, Mr. Roger Ballagh and Mr. Terence Dixon were clients of
Ansbacher".

The evidence supporting your conclusions is said to be a statement by Mr. Michael O'Shea,
evidence given by Michael O'Shea, the exhibits produced at that hearing (by you) and the
seven further exhibits set out.

Your "Preliminary Conclusions "

Some Preliminary Points

We can find nowhere in the transcript of Mr. O'Shea any suggestion that he was asked to
represent or indicated that he represented our client Mr. Dixon.

On page 10 of the transcript we find, however, that Inspector O'Leary stated:

"We must identify the client of the company we are investigating... Ansbacher".

We note in the "foreign exchange dealing ticket (document 5)" appended to your preliminary
conclusion, it is expressly stated that the customer is "Hamilton Ross".

What Mr. Dixon has said, which is uncontradicted by any evidence that we have seen, is that
the fee paid in 1993, by a client of Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh, was subsequently divided
among the partners including Mr. Dixon. He made it clear that the matter was handled by
 Liam D. McGonagle. He made the point, from information he received after the event, for
the purpose of attempting to respond to your queries, that the fee was received in the manner
detailed.

In the circumstances, we might respectfully suggest that a fair analysis of this transaction, if it
is one that has any part to play in your report, would be as follows:

"In 1993 Mr. Terence Dixon, in his capacity as a partner in his Solicitors' practice,
received part of a fee earned by one of his fellow partners Mr. Liam McGonagle. Mr.
McGonagle took responsibility for recovering the fee from the partnership's client
and making the arrangements for its distribution among his fellow partners.

It now transpires that the payment to Mr. Terence Dixon was effected through a
company called Kentford Securities Limited. It now appears that the payment in
^ question was effected by Hamilton Ross drawing on a bank account maintained with
another bank (possibly Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited).

Mr. Terence Dixon was not party to the arrangements that Mr. McGonagle put in
place.

Whilst it is clear that Mr. Terence Dixon received a payment through Kentford
Securities Limited we have not been able to establish whether he was a client of
Ansbacher".

We do not believe that there can be any objection to presenting your conclusion in that
manner. We say this, subject always to you explaining the matters we refer to above.

We have to say that we are gravely concerned by your refusal to engage in any meaningful
dialogue in relation to your preliminary conclusions. As a matter of common sense, it is not
fair. As a matter of law, it is also a denial of our client's right to fair procedures. The fact
that you have written to our client clearly establishes that:-

(a) your conclusion constitutes "a finding or inference adverse to Mr. Dixon's interests,
good name and/or reputation";

(b) Mr .Dixon has the right to be:

(i) informed in writing of the proposed finding or inference

(ii) informed of the evidence which is thought to justify the proposed finding or
inference
(iii) afforded the opportunity to prepare a written reply to the proposed finding or
inference
(iv) afforded, by way of further examination on oath, an opportunity to introduce
rebutting evidence and/or to address the Inspectors
(v) afforded an opportunity to cross-examine the relevant witnesses.
 I!l
In circumstances where you have simply failed to engage on the case made by Mr. Dixon
concerning the suggestion he should be described as a "client of Ansbacher" it is incumbent
on us, for the purposes of protecting his interest, good name and reputation, to take this
matter further.

Please note that we require the following:-

1. The opportunity of producing evidence that in relation to the distribution of the fee,
Mr. Dixon had no knowledge of the arrangements being put in place by Mr.
McGonagle and absolutely no knowledge that the monies that he received had, at any
time (if that be the case, a matter we do not accept that you have evidence of) been
retained in an Ansbacher account.

2. We also require that we be entitled to address you. Clearly, the procedures you
yourself have adopted provide for the right to have an interplay of views between
yourselves and persons such as Mr. Dixon for the purposes of permitting him to
appropriately vindicate his interest, good name and reputation.

In the event that we cannot make some headway in dealing with your preliminary conclusion,
either by following our procedural rights as identified above, or through some other means,
our client wishes the opportunity to cross-examine such witnesses as you have who can give
relevant evidence that the monies in question were ever in an Ansbacher account. Perhaps
you could identify these witnesses and indicate when they will be made available for cross-
examination and deliver a transcript of the evidence they have given.

We note in your procedures that where issues arise between any person and your good selves,
a procedure of seeking directions from the High Court to resolve issues is referred to. Should
we fail to reach an accommodation in relation to the provisions of your report to which we
refer, we reserve our right to be the subject matter of such application

You will be able to appreciate the impossible position Mr. Dixon finds himself in. He is a
solicitor and an Officer of the High Court. He has received a share in a fee due to a legal
practice of which he was a partner. In circumstances of which he knows nothing it is alleged
that part of this money may have been held in an account operated by Ansbacher. We have
to say, with the greatest respect, that to see him designated as "a client of Ansbacher " with
the damage to his interests, good name and reputation that such a designation will bring, is
unfair, unjustified, unnecessary and irrational.

In relation to the monies paid to Mr. Dixon, he objects to being dealt with in a section of your
report that also deals with other persons.

Finally, it seems to us a brief meeting between the representatives of yourselves (or better
still yourselves) and this office could go a very long way to defusing what on the face of it,
appears to be a confrontation that is entirely unnecessary. Mr. Dixon has no problem
accepting that he received the payment in question. His objection is to being called a client
of Ansbacher, an institution the services of which he never knowingly utilised, or wished to
utilise personally or for any client.
We assume that pending your response to this letter, no report will be published containing
the sections concerning Mr. Dixon. If this is not the case please tell us and we will take the
necessary steps elsewhere.

Yours faithfully,

MASON HAYES & CURRAN

Appendix XV (29) Mr David Doyle
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
David Doyle.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr David Doyle dated 16 June 2000.

b) Statement of Mr David Doyle dated 7 June 2000.

c) Extract from computer printout of an unheaded a/c furnished by David

Doyle.

d) Sample of unheaded statement furnished by David Doyle.

e) Sample of unheaded statement of a/c.

f) Computer generated a/c statement dated 13 July 1999.

g) Letter of 5 May 2000 from Corrigan &Corrigan to David Doyle.

h) Letter of 2 May 2000 from David Doyle to Mr William Corrigan.

Appendix XV (29) (1) (a)
 PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF

MR. DAVID DOYLE

UNDER OATH

ON FRIDAY, 16TH JUNE 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY B.L.

SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS

INTERVIEWEE: MR. DAVID DOYLE

REPRESENTED BY: MR. RORY McCABE S.C.

MR. PAT KENNEDY

MS. OONAGH MEADE

INSTRUCTED BY: KELLY KENNEDY & CO.

22 UPPER MOUNT STREET

DUBLIN 2.
 1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON FRIDAY, 16TH

2 JUNE 2000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Doyle, we will begin

5 our interview. I will

6 introduce myself. I am Declan Costello and on my

7 right is Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan. We

8 are the Inspectors, as you know, who have been

9 appointed by the High Court. I should explain to

10 you, Mr. Doyle, that this is not a Court hearing, it

11 is not a Tribunal hearing, it is an interview. If

12 in the course of this interview we ask you questions

13 on which you would like to get advice from your

14 legal advisors, please tell us so and we will stop

15 asking questions and you can then take advice.

16 Similarly, at any time your legal advisors can ask

17 us to stop asking questions if they wish to advise

18 you in relation to any question we ask you.

19

20 Mr. Doyle, your evidence will be taken under oath

21 and I will ask our solicitor now, Ms. Cummins, to

22 administer the oath to you.

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

3
 1 MR. DAVID DOYLE HAVING BEEN SWORN WAS EXAMINED, AS

2 FOLLOWS, BY THE INSPECTORS

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Doyle, have you got a

5 copy of the statement

6 there that you gave us (Exhibit 1)?

7 A. I do.

8 2 Q. You begin by telling us that you reached a

9 settlement with the Revenue on 17th December 1993.

10 Was that under the provisions of the Tax Amnesty

11 Act?

12 A. I actually don't know. It was handled by Terry

13 Cooney.

14 3 Q. Mr. Cooney, the accountant?

15 A. Yes. My understanding is it was done in a similar

16 time, I'm not too sure. I haven't actually seen the

17 wording, but my understanding is that if it wasn't

18 the Amnesty, it was a complete tax settlement.

19 4 Q. I will have to come back to it in a few moments,

20 Mr. Doyle, but the position is it was Mr. Terry

21 Cooney who handled it?

22 A. Yes.

23 5 Q. He is an accountant?

24 A. He is a tax consultant, I think.

25 6 Q. Was Mr. Cooney your personal tax advisor on your own

26 personal tax or did you get his assistance for this

27 particular purpose?

28 A. No, he was advisor to the Group.

29 7 Q. Advisor to the Group?

4
 1 A. Yes, and to the family members.

2 8 Q. Was he your personal tax advisor?

3 A. As such, yes.

4 9 Q. Did you have any other accountant advising you on

5 tax matters?

6 A. Bastow Charleton were doing my tax returns.

7 10 Q. Doing your tax returns?

8 A. Yes .

9 11 Q. Could we turn over the page (Exhibit 1) and you say

10 you cannot recollect having executed a deed of

11 trust. Do you think is it possible, Mr. Doyle, that

12 you executed a deed of trust or do you think it is

13 very unlikely?

14 A. In my experience recently having seen a trust

15 document I would believe I didn't execute a trust

16 because I believed I had a bank account. I don't

17 remember ever seeing a document to be handed and

18 said, 'read this and go through the document.'

19 12 Q. Did you enter into this arrangement with

20 Mr. Traynor?

21 A. Yes .

22 13 Q. Would you tell us approximately when the arrangement

23 was entered into, where it was entered into and the

24 conversation that took place between you and

25 Mr. Traynor?

26 A. Initially I suppose my introduction to Guinness

27 Mahon was through -- Des Traynor who was a family

28 friend and I understand in 1980, there is a paper

29 here, an account was opened for a week with him in

 1 relation to a dispersement to the family members.

2 14 Q. Sorry, I am not following you.

3 A. Sorry, I think in 1980 there is an authorisation

4 here to open an account. That was the first

5 introduction to the bank, to Guinness & Mahon from

6 my point of view. I actually didn't have anything

7 to do with this except maybe to sign the initial

8 form, so it was just a disbursement to family

9 members.

10 15 Q. What do you mean by "a disbursement to family

11 members ?"

12 A. There was money lodged, there were accounts opened

13 for family members and there was money given to them

14 by my late father.

15 16 Q. Money given by your father?

16 A. Yes .

17 17 Q. That was the first time you had an account with

18 Guinness & Mahon, is it?

19 A. Yes. I suppose this was given to me by Mr. McCarthy

20 recently, so I haven't referred to this in the past

21 because I actually didn't know it was there. This

22 was done on my behalf without my involvement.

23 18 Q. I would like you to come to deal with your

24 conversation with Mr. Traynor about the transfer by

25 you to him of funds and what he said he was going to

26 do with them.

27 A. Sorry, just to recount the relationship, Des was a

28 family friend and had a lot of dealings with my

29 father. I met him a lot of the time, probably on a

 1 daily if not weekly basis. From my recollection the

2 first involvement I had with him was to do with

3 share dealings. I am putting the pieces together I

4 believe that the first account I opened was with the

5 proceeds of those share dealings. Sorry, outside of

6 this, my understanding was that this first account

7 was just a disbursement to the family members. It

8 was opened and it was closed again and that was the

9 end of it in the year 1980. Subsequently in 1983 I

10 think it was with whatever share dealings I had, I

11 left the proceeds with Des Traynor.

12 19 Q. Just refer to page 2 of your statement (Exhibit 1)

13 and do you see you used the deposit maintained with

14 the company, the deposit made with the company. You

15 say at the end of the page:

16 "At some time I made a profit from

dealings. This account was opened in
17 Guinness & Mahon by Mr. Traynor in
which proceeds were deposited."
18

19 I want you to tell me the conversation you had with

20 Mr. Traynor about the transfer by you to him of your

21 funds.

22 A. I think he was handling the share purchase and the

23 share sale, I think that is how he ended up with the

24 initial funds. I know he had an involvement.

25 20 Q. No, Mr. Doyle, what we want to find out is how it

26 came about that he took those monies and put them on

27 deposit in a coded account on your behalf. Would

28 you tell us how that came about?

29 A. I can't remember the specific conversation.

7
 1 21 Q. Just the gist of it and when it took place.

2 A. I am presuming in 1983.

3 22 Q. Why are you presuming that?

4 A. Because that was the time of the share dealings.

5 23 Q. Yes.

6 A. My understanding was there were two accounts or an

7 account he opened in my name and my understanding

8 was that it was in Guinness & Mahon London.

9 24 Q. Listen to the question. I am asking you not what

10 your understanding was now, I am asking you about

11 the conversation you had with Mr. Traynor as far as

12 you can recollect it and where it took place.

13 A. I can't actually recollect the conversation about it

14 other than it could have been in his office, but I

15 don't think so.

16 25 Q. You do not think so?

17 A. I think I was in his office once.

18 26 Q. You do not think this was in his office?

19 A. No.

20 27 Q. Would it have been in your hotel?

21 A. I think it was probably in one of the hotels.

22 28 Q. What happened? What did he say?

23 A. I will be honest with you, I can't actually

24 recollect the conversation other than Des was the

25 type of person who just said, 'right, I'll look

26 after that. '

27 29 Q. Tell me what he said to you, look after what?

28 A. Well, he had the money.

29 30 Q. What money?

8
 1 A. Sorry, I am presuming the initial funds that went

2 into the account or there was the money from

3 Atlantic Resources.

4 31 Q. Why are you presuming that?

5 A. Because I had no other reason to deal with him

6 before that.

7 32 Q. So it was, you think it was?

8 A. Yes .

9 33 Q. This was Atlantic Resources?

10 A. Yes .

11 34 Q. So you made a profit from Atlantic Resources?

12 A. Yes .

13 35 Q. Tell me what he said to you about it?

14 A. I have no recollection. I can say that he said

15 certain things but it wouldn't be true to my

16 recollection.

17 36 Q. I do not want you to tell me anything that is false.

18 A. The relationship I had with Des was

19 ....(INTERJECTION).

20 37 Q. No, you need not go into that, I just want you to

21 tell me what happened. What happened to the

22 proceeds of sale or the profit you made from the

23 sale of shares?

24 A. My understanding is that they went into

25 .... (INTERJECTION) .

26 38 Q. I do not want your understanding, I want you to tell

27 me the conversation you had with Mr. Traynor if you

28 can remember it?

29 A. I can't remember it.

 1 39 Q. You cannot remember any conversation?

2 A. No.

3 40 Q. So you do not know what happened, you cannot tell me

4 what happened?

5 A. I can't, but I can piece together over a period of

6 probably a year or two that the money either stayed

7 with him in that account or at some stage there was

8 a suggestion that it would be kept in an account, to

9 my understanding, in London.

10 41 Q. How do you mean your "understanding," what do you

11 mean by that?

12 A. My understanding was that Guinness & Mahon London

13 was ....(INTERJECTION).

14 42 Q. How did you come to understand that Guinness & Mahon

15 in London had anything to do with your account?

16 A. Because Guinness & Mahon London was the parent

17 ....(INTERJECTION).

18 43 Q. How did you know that that had anything to do with

19 the money that Mr. Traynor had in your account?

20 A. It may have been suggested to me.

21 44 Q. It may have been?

22 A. Yes .

23 45 Q. But it may not have been?

24 A. It may not have been.

25 46 Q. You do not know?

26 A. I can't honestly say. Judge Costello, I can

27 attribute things to Des Traynor because he is not

28 here to defend himself obviously, but if I don't

29 know I will tell you I don't know.

 1 47 Q. I would much prefer, Mr. Doyle, if you told me the

2 truth.

3 A. That is exactly what I am trying to do.

4 48 Q. I want you to tell me the truth.

5 A. Yes .

6 49 Q. As I understand your evidence now it is that you

7 have no recollection. You are telling me, telling

8 the Inspectors that you have no recollection of what

9 Mr. Traynor did with the money that you say you made

10 on Atlantic Resources?

11 A. Sorry, what I am saying is, you have asked me about

12 the conversation with him, I can't recollect the

13 conversation I had with him other than what the

14 drift would have been.

15 50 Q. Do you know what he did with it?

16 A. He set up an account in Guinness & Mahon for me.

17 51 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. Because I used to get statements to my home.

19 52 Q. To your home?

20 A. Yes .

21 53 Q. Would you look at the second paragraph of page 2 of

22 your statement (Exhibit 1):

23 "Principally for security and privacy

reasons we opened an account with a
24 small bank. At that time Guinness &
Mahon's operations in Dublin consisted
25 of services to high net worth
individuals."
26

27 Is that anything to do with us today, that statement

28 in paragraph 2?

29 A. Only to say that my reason for gathering together my

 1 various funds and putting them into one account was

2 to have some privacy.

3 54 Q. You told us that an account was opened in 1980, you

4 have discovered, in your name?

5 A. Yes .

6 55 Q. You have told us you did not know about it but your

7 father put it in. You then told us that Mr. Traynor

8 was dealing with the sale of shares that you made a

9 profit from. How did you decide to open an account

10 in a small bank, when did you decide that?

11 A. I had regular dealings with Des Traynor and he was

12 always in company. The first account was one that

13 was done on behalf of the family members and myself.

14 I understand it was opened within the space of a

15 week and I am told that was that, that account was

16 finished and the money was disbursed to the various

17 members. Then through Des I had dealings with

18 McCann Morrison and some shares I bought in

19 Atlantic, I made profits from that and that was the

20 start, if you want to call it, of the account.

21 56 Q. So you opened an account with Mr. Traynor?

22 A. Yes .

23 57 Q. When was that, do you know?

24 A. This was in 1983.

25 58 Q. You bought and sold shares?

26 A. Yes .

27 59 Q. And you made a profit?

28 A. Yes .

29 60 Q. Have you got, Mr. Doyle, a copy of our letter to you

12
 1 of 13th April there on your file? (Exhibit 2) (SAME

2 HANDED).

3 A. Yes.

4 61 Q. Do you see, Mr. Doyle, in the first paragraph we

5 refer to the Order of the Court?

6 A. Yes.

7 62 Q. We state in the letter:

8 "The Inspectors were appointed to

enquire into the affairs of Ansbacher
9 (Cayman) Limited, formerly known as
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited,
10 Ansbacher Limited and Cayman
International Bank and Trust Company
11 Limited ('The Company')."

12

13 Throughout this letter we refer to Ansbacher as "The

14 Company".

15 A. Yes.

16 63 Q. Then we ask you then in the appendices in Appendix C

17 to give us information about the different services

18 the company had offered and whether you availed of

19 them. Then if I may return back to your letter on

20 the second page in paragraph B:

21 "My dealings with The Company commenced

in or around 1983 to the best of my
22 recollection."

23

24 A. Yes.

25 64 Q. That statement clearly means that it was your

26 dealings with Ansbacher?

27 A. With Guinness & Mahon?

28 65 Q. No, that is what I want to find out from you. Is

29 this a mistake on your part?

13
 1 A. In my statement (Exhibit 1) what I was referring to

2 was -- my understanding is that Guinness & Mahon

3 became Ansbacher and I am saying that

4 ....(INTERJECTION).

5 66 Q. Mr. Doyle, would I be correct in assuming that you

6 got professional assistance in drafting this

7 statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 67 Q. This statement is a statement saying that your

10 dealings with The Company, which is referred to in

11 our letter as Ansbacher, commenced. Do you accept

12 now that you had dealings with Ansbacher?

13 A. (Pause).

14 MR. McCABE: If I may for one moment?

15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, certainly.

16 A. It has been explained to me that it is a typo error

17 in relation to my statement (Exhibit 1).

18 68 Q. Sorry?

19 A. It has been explained to me that it was a typo error

20 in relation to my statement. What I have said was

21 that my understanding is that Guinness & Mahon later

22 on became Ansbacher and that I was dealing with Des

23 Traynor on two accounts; one for all intents and

24 purposes what I understood to be on-shore and one

25 off-shore.

26 69 Q. Yes, I see.

27 A. But always with Des at Guinness & Mahon. My

28 understanding is it later on became Ansbacher.

29 Sorry, in my statement I would have been referring

14
 1 and accepted all along that I am referring to

2 Guinness & Mahon.

3 70 Q. I just want to get clear now what you are telling

4 us. If there is a typographical error, of course I

5 am not tying you to that in any way, but I just want

6 to get it clear. You now have indicated to us that

7 you understood that you had two accounts; one was an

8 ordinary domestic account in Guinness & Mahon and

9 they sent you regular statements and you put money

10 in and you took it out in the ordinary way?

11 A. Yes .

12 71 Q. The second was what we perhaps could call an

13 extraordinary account, an offshore account?

14 A. Yes, I believe so.

15 72 Q. Am I correct in saying that you did not know where

16 that offshore account was kept?

17 A. Initially, yes. My belief was that it was at

18 Guinness & Mahon London.

19 73 Q. In London?

20 A. Yes .

21 74 Q. You thought it was in London?

22 A. It was controlled from there, yes.

23 75 Q. What happened later?

24 A. Then I believe at some stage Des may have either

25 indicated where it was or he may have just said that

26 it was held off-shore in the Cayman Islands.

27 76 Q. In the Cayman Islands?

28 A. Yes .

29 77 Q. So Mr. Traynor would have told you this at some

 1 stage and you cannot remember when?

2 A. Yes .

3 78 Q. If I might just ask you to recollect perhaps a

4 little bit better. Mr. Traynor died in 1994 and you

5 opened this account, this extraordinary off-shore

6 account in 1983.

7 A. Yes .

8 79 Q. Do you remember in that span of years, the span of

9 ten years or so, was it early in that span that you

10 learned that your funds were in the Cayman Islands

11 and not in London?

12 A. I think it would have been after that, probably in

13 the mid -- if you had asked me without putting dates

14 in front of me, I would have said it was maybe

15 1986/87.

16 80 Q. Around about that time?

17 A. Yes .

18 81 Q. Did Mr. Traynor tell you that you could use the

19 funds that were off-shore by approaching him and he

20 would make them available to you?

21 A. Yes, any deposits actually made were, I believe,

22 through him. I may have at some stage given Joan

23 Williams cheques, but ....(INTERJECTION).

24 82 Q. I am not talking about deposits, I am talking about

25 withdrawals. Did he tell you that you could obtain

26 withdrawals at any time by approaching him?

27 A. Yes .

28 83 Q. So your understanding then was that you had

29 deposited money, you thought, originally in London

16
 1 and then it went to the Cayman Islands in the mid

2 1980's or so you were told this, but that you could

3 withdraw funds at any time?

4 A. Yes.

5 84 Q. In fact you discussed with Mr. Traynor from time to

6 time the currency in which the money would be

7 deposited, did you?

8 A. Yes, or my recollection is that he may have rung me

9 with a suggestion and say ....(INTERJECTION).

10 85 Q. Move them, because they were moved into a dollar

11 account; were they not?

12 A. Yes, I believe so.

13 86 Q. Did this happen more than once or did it happen

14 regularly?

15 A. The conversion?

16 87 Q. No, that he would ring you or that you would ring

17 him and suggest a change in how the money was

18 redeposited?

19 A. Because I was running into him so much it might come

20 up in conversation with him or it mightn't. I know

21 on many occasions prior to his death, so I can't say

22 going back how many years, we spoke about Seven Mile

23 Beach on Cayman Islands and he would be saying he

24 had been ....(INTERJECTION).

25 88 Q. No, I am not talking about that, Mr. Doyle. I am

26 talking about where the money would be.

27 A. Sorry, I wouldn't ring him up specifically to

28 discuss that.

29 89 Q. No, what I am trying to find out is did it occur

17
 1 fairly regularly that you would change the deposits?

2 A. No.

3 90 Q. But from time to time?

4 A. I think if I remember once.

5 91 Q. Once?

6 A. I presume that.

7 92 Q. He rang you up, you think, or it does not matter

8 whether you rang him but it is probably likely that

9 he rang you. Would you consider yourself

10 sufficiently au fait with the money markets to ring

11 him and suggest changing the deposit?

12 A. No.

13 93 Q. So it is probably likely that he rang you?

14 A. Yes, or I am not saying there was a phone call, but

15 I am saying that on a daily basis

16 ....(INTERJECTION).

17 94 Q. All right, it might not have been a phone call, it

18 might have been a meeting in the hotel?

19 A. Yes.

20 95 Q. You think this happened once?

21 A. Yes.

22 96 Q. Mr. Doyle, you were obtaining statements on a fairly

23 regular basis of how your deposits were going, is

24 that right?

25 A. Yes.

26 97 Q. These statements would indicate the interest that

27 was being earned on the deposits?

28 A. Yes.

29 98 Q. Am I correct in saying, Mr. Doyle, that you did not

18
 1 pay tax on the interest that these deposits earned?

2 A. I believe so. I had two accounts; one which was

3 returned by the auditors and one which obviously no.

4 My understanding is the tax wasn't paid on the

5 interest.

6 99 Q. Do you know whether or not this was part of the

7 settlement that was effected on your behalf by

8 Mr. 0'Donnell in 1993?

9 A. It was.

10 100 Q. In respect of the non-paid tax on the interest that

11 accrued?

12 A. It was.

13 101 Q. Just so that we can understand the position, you got

14 the statements regularly from Mr. Traynor, they

15 would come by the post, is that right, or would he

16 give them to you by hand sometimes?

17 A. No, I think they always came by post.

18 102 Q. Do you remember had they got the name Guinness &

19 Mahon on the statements or was it cut off?

20 A. Again I gave the Tribunal originals I had and I

21 don't know who has them at this stage, but the

22 photocopies -- living down in Spain most of the

23 information I have got ....(INTERJECTION).

24 103 Q. I am sorry?

25 A. Living down in Spain most of the information I have

26 received have been photocopies of originals and

27 photocopies of faxes. I supplied to the Tribunal an

28 invoice as I remembered receiving it from Guinness &

29 Mahon in its original form which I believe was

19
 1 Guinness & Mahon's statement or a list of credits

2 and a covering letter with an address of 17 College

3 Green.

4 104 Q. What I am asking you about, Mr. Doyle, is the

5 statements that were sent to you on a regular basis

6 from Guinness & Mahon about your deposit, I am not

7 asking you about the money that was deposited.

8 A. No, I actually think there is a copy of one in here.

9 105 Q. Sorry?

10 A. I think there is a copy here but it does not reflect

11 the statement as I am trying to describe it. This

12 is a black and white photocopy and I think it was on

13 cream paper and the statement was transparent.

14 106 Q. You have got a statement?

15 A. Sorry, I actually think I have a copy here

16 somewhere.

17 107 Q. Mr. Doyle, I am not talking about the ordinary

18 statements that you got on your ordinary Dublin

19 account.

20 A. No, what I got as far as I know was a cream piece of

21 note paper with 17 College Green, a transparent

22 statement I believe from Guinness & Mahon and a slip

23 of paper that was a tear off of a computer print-out

24 (Exhibit 3).

25 108 Q. Are we looking at the same document?

26 A. It is a photocopy of the tear out off the computer

27 print-out.

28 109 Q. Balance brought forward 10th November 1983 of

29 £15,900; is that it?

 1 A. Yes .

2 110 Q. That is a photostat of a document and that had no

3 heading, had it?

4 A. No, as far as I remember there were three pieces of

5 paper which came in; one was a covering letter, I

6 provided one to the Tribunal and as far as I

7 remember that was exactly as I got it. It was a

8 grease-proof piece of Guinness & Mahon bank

9 statement, if you want to call it that.

10 111 Q. What is this document?

11 A. This was a statement to the back of it which was a

12 tear off of a computer print-out, so this was

13 computer paper.

14 112 Q. The statement that you got from Guinness & Mahon,

15 did that show you what your account was or what was

16 in your account?

17 A. Yes .

18 113 Q. So it was different to this document?

19 A. I don't know, I think this was the sheet of paper I

20 referred to as being the balance and the last credit

21 and debit. The other sheet of paper may have shown

22 the interest being applied to the total amount, that

23 is what I think.

24 114 Q. You say a computer print-out or this seemed to have

25 been torn off from the computer print-out. In

26 relation to the other document there was a covering

27 letter from Mr. Traynor or somebody saying "herewith

28 the account..." and whatever it was, but then there

29 was another statement, did it have a heading on it,

21
 1 the other statement?

2 A. Yes, I believe it did.

3 115 Q. Mr. Doyle, I wonder have we the same numbered pages

4 as yours, it is 174 we have?

5 A. Yes, 174 and 175.

6 116 Q. Look at 174 (Exhibit 4)?

7 A. Yes .

8 117 Q. That was the document that you got and behind this

9 was the computer print-out?

10 A. Yes .

11 118 Q. That document has got no heading on it.

12 A. I see that.

13 119 Q. Perhaps if I just hand you another document, it is

14 purely a specimen document and has nothing to do

15 with your case, but it is the sort of document that

16 would appear (Exhibit 5). (SAME HANDED). Does that

17 assist your recollection now, Mr. Doyle, that that

18 was the type of statement that you would have

19 obtained?

20 A. It does because that is the same as the copy here

21 which I have provided. I also thought there was a

22 Guinness & Mahon heading on it.

23 120 Q. There is not on that?

24 A. No.

25 121 Q. There does not seem to be one on the photostat that

26 we have?

27 A. No.

28 122 Q. These are documents that you have got and produced.

29 Are they the only statements that you have found in

22
 1 your records?

2 A. Yes. On the day of the Tribunal I went home and

3 because we moved to Spain, I had in an old cuff-link

4 box wrapped some old bank books I had and I had

5 remembered seeing one statement and some piece of

6 paper that I had retained over the years. On the

7 day of the Tribunal I went looking for that and I

8 found the pieces of paper as I remembered them where

9 they were and managed to locate them.

10 123 Q. You have looked at them?

11 A. Yes, they are the only papers that I have retained.

12 124 Q. Very well.

13 A. I didn't know at that stage that I had actually

14 retained them, but I hadn't been asked for any

15 papers at that stage.

16 125 Q. Very well. Can we go back to your statement on

17 page 2, do you see paragraph D on the bottom of page

18 2?

19 A. Yes .

20 126 Q.
"In the course of my dealings with The
21 Company only three withdrawals were
made from my account, the third of
22 which served to close the account... ."

23

24 When was the account closed?

25 A. In 1993, I think I read here this morning, July.

26 127 Q. No, I am not talking about what you read. Can you

27 recollect?

28 A. I couldn't without referring. My memory in relation

29 to the time line of this is -- I would have thought

23
 1 from day one that the years were different than they

2 were. I actually thought I closed it in 1991 and I

3 actually closed it in 1993.

4 128 Q. How did you find that out?

5 A. Because it was in the documentation.

6 129 Q. Where? Have you got it there?

7 A. I saw it this morning.

8 130 Q. Have you found this?

9 A. I am just trying to locate it. (Pause).

10 131 Q. Would you turn to page 182(3), is that what you are

11 referring to, Mr. Doyle (Exhibit 6)?

12 A. No, if you can just give me a moment, I thought it

13 was a letter, I saw it here this morning.

14 132 Q. Mr. Doyle, do you know whether these are anything to

15 do with your money on deposit in the Cayman? Are

16 these your own personal accounts here in Dublin?

17 A. That is page 182?

18 133 Q. Do you know what these documents relate to?

19 A. I thought it was a letter from Des Traynor saying to

20 close the account.

21 134 Q. These are Guinness & Mahon documents in Dublin?

22 A. Yes.

23 135 Q. You had an account in Dublin, of course you had an

24 account in Dublin and we know about that.

25 A. Yes.

26 136 Q. I am not interested in that, that is an ordinary

27 resident account. Do you know whether this was

28 ....(INTERJECTION).

29 A. No, that is what I said, it is not actually this

24
 1 piece of paper.

2 137 Q. Sorry?

3 A. I was actually looking for a letter from Des Traynor

4 to somebody in the bank requesting the account be

5 closed.

6 138 Q. I have an account but this is your Guinness & Mahon

7 account, your ordinary resident account which was

8 closed in July 1983.

9 A. 1983?

10 139 Q. On 13th July 1993?

11 A. Sorry, that is the account I was referring to, I saw

12 a reference to it in a letter.

13 140 Q. I am talking about your relations

14 ....(INTERJECTION).

15 A. The Cayman Islands account?

16 141 Q. The Cayman Islands account, yes.

17 A. It was closed after 1988 because I got concerned

18 after my father died, so I would have thought it was

19 1990/91.

20 142 Q. Tell us how it was closed and what happened?

21 A. I asked Des Traynor to close the account. I believe

22 I asked him for a cheque back for the total amount.

23 143 Q. You asked him for a cheque for the total amount of

24 the account?

25 A. Yes .

26 144 Q. What did you do with the cheque then? Where did you

27 deposit it then?

28 A. I deposited it in another off-shore account that was

29 returned in its entirety to the Revenue.

25
 1 145 Q. But nothing to do with Guinness & Mahon?

2 A. No.

3 146 Q. We have had reference to an account in Liechtenstein

4 that your father had maintained, was this it?

5 A. Well, it was my own account.

6 147 Q. Your own account?

7 A. Yes .

8 148 Q. Anyway I do not want to go in to your own private

9 affairs, I am only concerned about Ansbacher.

10 A. To add to it, I remember being aware at the time not

11 wanting to upset Des, so I believe I asked him for

12 payment to myself by way of cheque, so that he

13 wouldn't -- in other words, I could have said

14 transfer it to there, but not to indicate to him

15 that I thought there might be a problem with him, I

16 actually asked him for the money myself, I believe.

17 149 Q. So you got the money. Who were your advisors then?

18 Did you go to some of your advisors, your

19 accountants or legal advisors about this Trust, this

20 other money?

21 A. Yes, I was aware that my father had a Trust or an

22 account and one of the advisors arranged for

23 .... (INTERJECTION) .

24 150 Q. You went to his advisors about this?

25 A. No, I think it could have been the Company Secretary

26 suggested ....(INTERJECTION).

27 151 Q. Mr. Carville?

28 A. Yes, suggested that, because I remember going to

29 ....(INTERJECTION).
 1 152 Q. That was the end of your relationship with the

2 Cayman Islands company?

3 A. Yes .

4 153 Q. That was, you think, in 1993, was it, did you say?

5 A. No, sorry, I thought the letter referred to that.

6 No, some time after 1988 because that was the time

7 my father died.

8 154 Q. It was after your father's death?

9 A. Yes, and the connection really with Des was through

10 my father. I got concerned as a result I think, and

11 I am only trying to remember the time line again, I

12 think it was the Russell Murphy affair with Gay

13 Byrne.

14 155 Q. So you decided to take the money out then?

15 A. Yes .

16 156 Q. That was the third transaction. What other

17 transactions did you have re withdrawing of funds?

18 A. I think I asked Des for money to purchase a car,

19 which I did at some stage ask him for money to

20 purchase a car.

21 157 Q. Yes .

22 A. The other one I don't know, I may have asked him for

23 money and returned it. I am sorry, I may have

24 actually asked him for money and put it into

25 Liechtenstein, I actually don't know.

26 158 Q. The car would not have been a very substantial sum

27 of money, I take it?

28 A. Unfortunately it was.

29 159 Q. It was?
 1 A. Yes .

2 160 Q. How much was it?

3 A. It was a Mercedes SL.

4 161 Q. How much was it?

5 A. I think it was about £80,000 or £90,000.

6 162 Q. Do you remember when that was?

7 A. That was in 1990 because that was the registration.

8 163 Q. 1990?

9 A. Yes .

10 164 Q. If that was before the last one, the last one must

11 have been after that?

12 A. Yes, I accept that and that is what I am saying. I

13 don't recall exactly what I said to Des, but I would

14 have closed the account, I believe, shortly after

15 that that, maybe six months after that.

16 165 Q. So we are then talking about closing the account in

17 1991 perhaps?

18 A. Perhaps, yes. I do remember getting the cheque for

19 the car from Des.

20 166 Q. That would have been three years after your father's

21 death?

22 A. Yes .

23 167 Q. That is the closing of the account and then the car

24 in 1990. What was the first withdrawal?

25 A. I actually don't know because I have tried to

26 account for it and I haven't been able to. I have a

27 feeling it may have been to purchase something or it

28 could have been a drawdown into the Liechtenstein

29 account, I don't know. I didn't purchase -- in

28
 1 other words, I remember specifically buying the car,

2 but I don't remember purchasing anything else.

3 168 Q. You have a recollection and you say it in your

4 statement on three occasions that you had made

5 withdrawals.

6 A. Yes .

7 169 Q. You have accounted for two. The first withdrawal,

8 was it a substantial sum of money, do you remember?

9 A. No, according to the paper here -- sorry, I

10 understand it is £100,000 odd.

11 170 Q. It is not your understanding, it is your

12 recollection I am concerned about.

13 A. Prior to receiving the paper I have no recollection

14 of it.

15 171 Q. Receiving what paper?

16 A. The Tribunal papers with the statements, I had no

17 recollection of it, but in trying to account for it

18 to my previous solicitors, I couldn't put my finger

19 on anything that it was actually for. I presume

20 that it may have been me taking the money from Des

21 to put in ....(INTERJECTION).

22 172 Q. Have you any recollection of it at all?

23 A. I don't to be honest.

24 173 Q. None at all?

25 A. No.

26 174 Q. So you have no recollection of the substantial sum

27 of money which was withdrawn from your account?

28 A. No.

29 175 Q. So you are trying to do the best you can, you are
 1 trying to think of various possibilities that may

2 have arisen?

3 A. Yes.

4 176 Q. I wonder are we talking about the figure that

5 appears of £111,633.28 on 23rd July 1987, is that

6 what we are talking about?

7 A. What page are you on?

8 177 Q. I am not on any page that you have there.

9 A. 1987, no. Sorry, that may have been a draw out to

10 put in Liechtenstein.

11 178 Q. Is that what we are talking about?

12 A. I don't actually know.

13 179 Q. You do not know?

14 A. No, I would presume ....(INTERJECTION).

15 180 Q. How could money have been drawn from the Cayman

16 Islands, over £110,000, and be moved to

17 Liechtenstein without you knowing it?

18 A. Sorry, I am not saying that I didn't know it at the

19 time. What I have tried to do is account for the

20 money and I don't have a list of ....(INTERJECTION).

21 181 Q. Mr. Doyle, you say in your statement that you made

22 three withdrawals.

23 A. Yes.

24 182 Q. Do you remember making three withdrawals?

25 A. I remember specifically asking for the money for the

26 car definitely, I remember that withdrawal.

27 183 Q. All right.

28 A. I don't remember the 1987 withdrawal.

29 184 Q. If I may interrupt you, Mr. Doyle. I just want to

30
 1 find out what your recollection is. You recollect

2 buying the Mercedes car?

3 A. Yes.

4 185 Q. You recollect closing the account in 1993 and you

5 have no other recollection of any other withdrawal?

6 A. I don't.

7 186 Q. Very well. I think we will break now, Mr. Doyle,

8 for a cup of coffee or a cup of tea for about ten

9 minutes.

10

11

12 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)

13

14

15 187 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Doyle, we will resume

16 now. I just want to ask

17 you about another topic now and that is about the

18 Thornhill Trust.

19 A. Yes.

20 188 Q. We know this was established by your father and your

21 mother and it was for the benefit, I think, of his

22 children and grandchildren. Who were the members of

23 your family?

24 A. Sorry, who are the members?

25 189 Q. Were and are. There was your brother, who is your

26 brother?

27 A. Due to family differences it might be were. My

28 brother Michael.

29 190 Q. Yes.

31
 1 A. My sister Eileen.

2 191 Q. Eileen what?

3 A. Eileen Monaghan.

4 192 Q. Yes.

5 A. Ann Roche.

6 193 Q. She is Mrs. Roche?

7 A. Yes, and Bernadette Gallagher.

8 194 Q. Your brother?

9 A. Sorry, Michael Doyle.

10 195 Q. You had one brother and three sisters?

11 A. Yes.

12 196 Q. Did you have any relative on your mother's side or

13 your father's side called a Mrs. Barrett at all?

14 A. No.

15 197 Q. You did not?

16 A. No.

17 198 Q. I just want to ask you about the Thornhill Trust.

18 Do you remember when it was wound up?

19 A. I don't. Again last year I was asked by Brian

20 O'Donnell & Partners did I know anything about the

21 Thornhill Trust. Outside of saying well obviously

22 it was called after the family home so it is

23 obviously related, but I don't remember the

24 specifics of it. I was also informed then that

25 there was a second Thornhill Trust.

26 199 Q. Sorry?

27 A. I was informed then that the Tribunal were asking

28 about a second Thornhill Trust and I was told that

29 it was active up until last year or the year before,

32
 1 whenever the Tribunal started, or there were

2 transactions going through it.

3 200 Q. Yes.

4 A. On that basis everybody was asked did they have

5 anything to do with it and everybody said no.

6 Particularly if it was active, if it was terminated

7 at some stage in the past somebody might have said,

8 'well, is there a possibility that that second one

9 is connected?' Because it was still active nobody

10 knew anything about it, so it was presumed that it

11 was not, that it was just coincidence that it was

12 called that. So in the initial one, I don't know

13 about the workings of it. I am probably better off

14 saying at this stage rather than later that I am not

15 on speaking terms with any of the family members or

16 any of their advisors for a long time due to a

17 family battle, so I haven't had the, I suppose, the

18 ability or the opportunity to sit down with people

19 and say, 'what about this and what about that.'

20 Whereby people would say to you, 'do you not

21 remember this?' ....(INTERJECTION).

22 201 Q. Have you been in touch with Mr. Corrigan?

23 A. No, other than sending him a fax to ask him was

24 there anything I should ....(INTERJECTION).

25 202 Q. Mr. Corrigan wrote to you and told you that it had

26 been wound up, the original Trust. The original

27 Trust was 1964 and was in Ireland and Mr. Corrigan

28 and the accountant were trustees of it, is that not

29 right?

33
 1 A. Yes, I would have thought that was Thornhill

2 Incorporated.

3 203 Q. That Trust owned the shares in Thornhill

4 Incorporated.

5 A. Okay.

6 204 Q. You were a Director of Thornhill Incorporated?

7 A. Yes .

8 205 Q. When did you last have a meeting of the companies?

9 A. I would have thought prior to the sale of my shares

10 at some stage because it would have been the vehicle

11 that Jurys were purchasing.

12 206 Q. Sorry?

13 A. Thornhill Incorporated would have been the vehicle

14 that Jurys were purchasing, so I would have been

15 present at a Board meeting of it at some stage

16 before ....(INTERJECTION).

17 207 Q. When was that?

18 A. Probably two years ago.

19 208 Q. So Thornhill Incorporated was a trading company?

20 A. Yes .

21 209 Q. Did it own Jurys Hotel, did you say?

22 A. No, no. Sorry, it was the owning company of most of

23 the shares that were held.

24 210 Q. Thornhill Incorporated had assets and its assets

25 included shares?

26 A. I am presuming that they did because that is the

27 vehicle that Jurys purchased, so I would understand

28 that everything was consolidated under

29 ....(INTERJECTION).
 1 211 Q. When you say "Jurys," is this the Jurys Hotel Group?

2 A. Yes.

3 212 Q. Did they purchase the business that had been carried

4 on by the Doyle family?

5 A. Yes.

6 213 Q. The manner in which that sale took place was through

7 the sale of shares that Thornhill owned?

8 A. Yes.

9 214 Q. This happened a couple of years ago, you think?

10 A. Jurys made the purchase a year and a half ago, I

11 would have sold out prior to that, probably six

12 months before that. So some time during that I

13 would have had to sign off ....(INTERJECTION).

14 215 Q. So Thornhill Incorporated was an active holding

15 company up to the time the business was sold to

16 Jurys, is that the position?

17 A. Yes, I would have thought so. Most of the dealings

18 from our own point of view would have been PV Doyle

19 Holdings which was a company below that.

20 216 Q. Yes. The company remained in existence, Thornhill

21 Incorporated, it was an unlimited company.

22 A. I believe so.

23 217 Q. You wrote to Mr. Corrigan about this matter and

24 Mr. Corrigan wrote back on 5th May of this year

25 (Exhibit 7). (SAME HANDED). Do you see in

26 paragraph 1 he refers to the Trust being established

27 in 1965 and he says:

28 "The shares in Thornhill Inc. were

distributed equally, as far as I know
29 the only assets left are some penny
shares in Thornhill."

35
 1

2 Did that distribution take place after the sale to

3 Jurys ?

4 A. I am sorry, could you repeat the question?

5 218 Q. If you look at the letter (Exhibit 7).

6 A. Yes .

7 219 Q. Mr. Corrigan says:

8 "The shares in Thornhill Inc. were

distributed equally, as far as I know
9 the only assets left some penny shares
which are valueless and some cash in
10 the Bank of Ireland."

11

12 It was an unlimited company, apparently?

13 A. Yes .

14 220 Q. Can you explain what Mr. Corrigan is referring to

15 there?

16 A. I am presuming that it may have been that there was

17 a re-jigging after my father's death of the

18 shareholding in the company in relation to maybe

19 preference shares and ordinary shares. At that

20 stage there was, I suppose if you want to call it, a

21 defined distribution. I wasn't there for the Jurys

22 deal, so I don't know what the wind up situation

23 was. I had been fired at that stage.

24 221 Q. You go on in your letter to Mr. Corrigan, if you

25 look at the page on 2nd May where you wrote (Exhibit

26 8) :

27 "The relevant documents... are

currently held by Brian O'Donnell &
28 Partners."

29
 1 Who was Mr. O'Donnell?

2 A. Brian O'Donnell & Partners?

3 222 Q. Yes .

4 A. He is the solicitor.

5 223 Q. Your solicitor?

6 A. Yes .

7 224 Q. You say that you had written to him about the

8 relevant documents about Thornhill.

9 A. Yes .

10 225 Q. Do you know have they been included in the documents

11 that you sent us?

12 A. I am presuming.

13 226 Q. Sorry?

14 A. I presume that they were. What I was doing here was

15 I was putting a letter out to him to say whatever

16 information I am entitled to or due or the

17 Inspectors are due, would you mind supplying them.

18 227 Q. In relation to your entitlement to an interest in

19 Thornhill, your solicitors, Mr. O'Donnell, can help

20 us or would know about that?

21 A. Yes, they represented the family in the transaction.

22 228 Q. They would have full information about your interest

23 in Thornhill?

24 A. Yes .

25 229 Q. Very well. We can ascertain from them the position,

26 if necessary. I want to refer you, Mr. Doyle, to a

27 point you have just made, namely, the existence of a

28 second Trust called Thornhill in the Cayman Islands.

29 Was that matter brought to your attention in the

37
 1 Moriarty Tribunal?

2 A. Not in the Tribunal itself on the day, but outside

3 of that papers were sent to us asking us did we have

4 any knowledge of it.

5 230 Q. Sorry?

6 A. Papers were sent to us. It wasn't brought up on the

7 day, but papers were sent to us asking us did we

8 have any knowledge or asking did we have any

9 knowledge of the Trust.

10 231 Q. Who asked you about this?

11 A. Brian O'Donnell & Partners asked me to reply to a

12 letter that they had received from the Tribunal.

13 They put the question to me did I know anything

14 about this Thornhill Trust to which my reply was no

15 and it was based on the fact that they said, 'and by

16 the way, it had been active up until the time of the

17 start of the Tribunal,' so some time after that. So

18 if the answer had been it was a dormant trust or it

19 wasn't active, I would have said, 'well, I don't

20 know anything but it is funny that it is related to

21 the name.' The fact that it had still been active,

22 I am presuming that there was no way that anybody

23 could have retained...

24 232 Q. If I understand what you are saying to us,

25 Mr. Doyle, it is that if there was a Thornhill Trust

26 in the Cayman Islands and if it was active in the

27 sense of distributing funds, it had nothing to do

28 with you?

29 A. Absolutely not.

38
 1 233 Q. Because you obtained no funds?

2 A. Exactly. I was told it was active, I think, this

3 time two years ago or March certainly of that year.

4 234 Q. Did you make any enquiries from members of your

5 family about the fact that the name of your family

6 Trust, which I understand was the name of your

7 family dwelling house.

8 A. Yes.

9 235 Q. Was used for a Trust that was based in the Cayman

10 Islands?

11 A. Yes.

12 236 Q. You made enquiries?

13 A. Sorry, of Brian O'Donnell, I don't have -- and again

14 I suppose I better say it -- I don't have a speaking

15 relationship.

16 237 Q. I see, so the answer is you did not then?

17 A. No, Brian O'Donnell placed the question to me, I

18 placed the question conversely to him, 'did anybody

19 else know about it' and his answer was 'no.'

20 238 Q. So you were told by your brothers' and sisters'

21 solicitors that they knew nothing about it?

22 A. Exactly.

23 239 Q. Yes, I see. Mr. Doyle, thank you for your

24 assistance. That is all we wish to ask you today.

25 It is possible we may have to recall you when we

26 have examined further documents, but at the moment

27 that is all we need to ask you.

28 A. I had asked the question when you were out of the

29 room in relation to the question you were asking me

39
 1 about the Amnesty. Unfortunately I don't speak to

2 any of the advisors of the family, but there was a

3 position a few years ago where basically whatever --

4 well, there was a big fall-out.

5 240 Q. It does not matter. These things happen in

6 families, Mr. Doyle. They happen and are

7 regrettable, but tell me what you want to say.

8 A. Basically I was told that my solicitors met with

9 Terry Cooney and that he had indicated to them that

10 it was actually the 1993 Amnesty, so just to answer

11 your earlier question.

12 241 Q. This is what I understood to be the position, I

13 implied that that was the position. Just to clarify

14 that point, I take it you had an accountant dealing

15 with your own affairs in relation to the Amnesty?

16 A. Terry Cooney represented everybody.

17 242 Q. Mr. Cooney represented you too?

18 A. Yes.

19 243 Q. So Mr. Cooney would be in a position to advise you

20 and us, if necessary, on the point you have just

21 made, that it was the Amnesty that was used and that

22 included in the settlement was the tax unpaid on the

23 interest?

24 A. Yes. All funds -- I wasn't happy at the time, but

25 everything was returned to Terry Cooney. I was

26 asked to sign a piece of paper. He got the funds

27 and he then gave me back the balance basically and

28 everything was definitely included in it. That is

29 it.

40
 1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you, Mr. Doyle.

3 END OF INTERVIEW

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

41
fAcMM^ OvKJwtN^VyJ

ioVAciNa^
 TO: Office of the Inspectors Appointed by Order of the High Court to
Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd

STATEMENT OF Mr DAVID DOVLE

PRELIMINARY
This statement is as full and detailed as my memory and records can afford.

On 17 t h December 1993, a settlement was reached with the Revenue

Commissioners regarding the tax affairs of myself, the Doyle Hotel Group and the
rest of my family.
That settlement was handled by Mr. George Carville and Mr William Corrigan of the
Doyle Hotel Group on behalf of that Group and the individual members of the Doyle
family. Mr Terry Cooney was engaged as a tax advisor primarily to deal directly with
representatives of the Revenue Commissioners.

I am aware that a letter was furnished by the Revenue Commissioners to Mr. Terry
Cooney confirming that such a settlement was reached.
I have made attempts to procure such information as I believed necessary from
Guinness and Mahon Bank, the Doyle Hotel Group and the estate of the late Mr Des
Traynor.
I therefore make this statement based on such records as I have currently to hand,
and based on my recollection of events. I should add that when I moved from my
parents' home in or about 1991 I dealt with and disposed of papers as they came to
hand.
 """"Vf VP*

PAYMGN TRTRETE AND TRYST COMPGNTE?

(1). I cannot recollect my ever having executed a Deed of Trust or other
instrument in the Cayman Islands or elsewhere in connection with Guinness
and Mahon and/ or Mr Des Traynor.
I am further unaware of ever having caused to be established in the
Cayman Islands or elsewhere any body corporate or other entity in
connection with Guinness and Mahon and/ or Mr Des Traynor.
I wouid state that i am now familiar, to a certain extant, with trusts arid
believe that had I established a trust, i would have been aware of so doing.
I therefore cannot furnish any documentation or details as sought in
questions (1) (a) to (1) (g).

T h e Use of Deposits Maintained with the Company

(2). Deposits made With the Company.

(a) In the early 1980's, as a young man, I was in the fortunate position of
having a substantial amount of money to my name and enjoyed
relatively high earnings from my employment within the Doyle Hotel
Group.
I became concerned regarding the privacy of myfinancial affairs and,
indeed,regarding my personal security should the money at my
disposal become common knowledge.
I believe It relevant to mention that in the early 1980's, my family and I
were very conscious of the threat of kidnapping. I was accompanied to
work on many occasions by Garda detectives, and staff and
management at Doyle Hotels were sensitive to suspicious characters.
I had worked In the USA for a number of years In the late 1970's. When
I completed my training In the USA Ireturned to Ireland and took up the
position as Trainee Manager of the Berkeley Court Hotel.
I was aware that Mr Des Traynor was the Chairman of Guinness and
Mahon. Mr Traynor was a personal friend of my late father and a
regular customer of Doyle Hotels and became well known to myself
and the rest of my family as a result.

At some point in time in-1982 or 1983,1 made a profit from dealing in •

the shares of, I recall, Atlantic Resources. About this time an account
 was opened in my name in Guinness & Mahon Bank by Mr Traynor,
into which these proceeds were deposited.
Principally for security and privacy reasons, I wished to open an
account with a small bank. At that time, Guinness and Mahon's
operations in Dublin consisted of one branch, 'and included the
provision of private banking services to high net worth individuals.
i do not recall signing any extraordinary documentation of a banking
nature. I specifically recall signing a .one page document in a car park in
or around 1985, but I do not recall that document being anything other
than routine, similar to a mandate of some description. This document
was presented to me by Mr. Des Traynor.
My dealings with the Company commenced in or around 1983, to the
best of my recollection.
I made regular deposits, in the region of two or three per year, up to
1989 or 1990.
Lodgments were made by my handing bank drafts, cheques and/ or
cash to Mr Traynor, whom I saw on a regular basis in Doyle Hotels,
principally the Burlington Hotel and the Berfcely Court Hotel.
If Mr Traynor was unavailable for any reason, I would contact his
secretary, Ms Joan Williams, with whom I was acquainted, and she
would inform Mr Traynor of my wish to see him.
In due course I would receive a statement, addressed to me at my
home address, which consisted of a note on Guinness and Mahon
headed notepaper, together with what appeared to be a printout from a
computer which showed the date and the amount of the most recent
transactions, together with the balance in my account
At all times I believed that I had a bank account, and was not under the
impression that it involved any sort of trust.

I would further state that I did not find anything out of the ordinary in
such dealings with Mr Traynor. Private banking, in my experience, is
substantially different from normal retail banking and involves few if any
conventional over the counter transactions.

In the course of my dealings with the Company, only three withdrawals

were made from my account, the third of which served to close the
account and terminate those dealings.

On each of these occasions, I contacted Mr Traynor and informed him

of how much money I required and when I required same. In each case
I received the money requested as requested in the.form.of, I believe, a.,
cheque or bank draft.
 I am unawareof any steps taken by Mr Traynor In the deposit or
withdrawal of my money. I was never informed of any procedures of a
banking or accounting nature which had to be followed. I requested the
money and received it.

(e) On the three occasions upon which I effected withdrawals from my

account with Guinness & Mahon, I believe I caused same to be lodged
or transferred to a personal bank account.

On each occasion that I requested that funds be withdrawn, it was for a

specific purpose, and I paid no attention to the name of the account
upon which the cheque was drawn or the bank upon which the draft
was drawn. I received my money and applied itfor such specific
purpose.
I have no recollection of seeing any of the names of the companies set
out in question (2Xe) in connection with any of my dealings.
(f) As stated above, I received statements from, as far as I was
concerned, Guinness and Mahon Bank. These statements were
addressed to me at my home address and contained details of the
latest transaction and the running balance on my account
There may have been a code of some description on the computer
printout but if there was I was not aware of it.
(3). This question appears to be identical to question two, except insofar as it
appears to state that Irish Intercontinental Bank provided the role that
Guinness and Mahon had done previously.
I have no recollection or documentation regarding any dealings involving
Irish Intercontinental Bank
(4). At no time did I avail of any loan or guarantee facllftfes nor did I offer my
deposits to act as backing for loans or provide any guarantees to any third
parties.

My family and I were made aware, however, in 1988 by Mr William Corrigan

and Mr George Carville, Chairman and Secretary respectively of Doyle
Hotels Group, that my late father had a loan outstanding with Guinness and
Mahon.
In the company of Messrs Corrigan and Carville, I met with Mr Des Traynor
in the Berkely Court Hotel shortly after the revelation of this loan. Mr Traynor
explained that the loan had been taken out for the benefit of Mr Charles J
Haughey, and that there was little chance of recovering the money from him.

At that' meeting, Mr Traynor did not explain the details of the transactions
involved in borrowing the money or applying the money for Mr Haughey's
benefit.
)

(5). I would repeat that at no time did I avail of any loan or guarantee facilities
nor did I offer my deposits to act as backing for loans or provide any
guarantees to any third parties.

(6). I am unaware of any applications being made on my behalf under the

Exchange Control Acts for any purpose.
(7). I am unaware of any connections with the Channel Islands or any of the
companies referred to in question (7).

(8).
(a) In the course of receiving documentation from the Moriarty Tribunal, I
have become aware of certain dealings regarding Doyle London Hotels
Limited and the Company.
I am unaware of the details of such dealings.
(b) I am unaware of any dealings with the Company by any subsidiaries of
any bodies corporate with which I was or am Involved.
(c) I am unaware of any dealings with the Company by any other entities
related to any bodies corporate with which I was or am involved.
(d) I am unaware of any trusts which had dealings with the Company. . ,
' ' .. ••• '
/ \
Appendix XV (29) ( 1) (c)
• -- —
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Appendix XV (29) (l)(d)
DEsroption CALL LPJTIT A/C

! DATE PARTICULARS V A L U E DATE DEBIT

31 M A R 69 *„.ALA;lCi. . r-'UUoHT 1-0:.WARD

1 tiMAR £J9 f)<\ A ,1".
OiAPRb'7 LJnjjf o
2 0 A P R 89 LJO-OI:^

/ •

|
i
!

X
•J
 IENTDATE • J t3 A R K 8 9

credit \ BALANCE

L3,493.03
LUO.OU 13,398-03
1 , 000.00 14 » 3 9 3 . 0 3
123-00 14,523-03
Appendix XV (29) (l)(f)
 » .

Account Statement 13/07/99 18:11:27

Account: 11140005 IEP DOVLE DAVID CALL DEPOSIT
Statement start Date 01JAN87
Sei Ualue NarratiMe Post Amount Balance
Balance brought forward 0.00CR
_ 17APR90 TRANS FROM FIXED DEPOSIT 40,000.00CR 40,000.0OCR
_ 26APR90 MR DAMID ODYLE 40,069.05DR
RETENTION TAX 29.59DR
INTEREST TO DATE 98.64CR 0.00CR
_ 23JLV91 CR Base Rate 8.25 O.QOCR
8.25 GROSS
_ 01JLV93 Credit Base Rate 5.00
Debit Rate Change .00 O.OOCR
I 05JLV93 Credit Base Rate 6.00
FROM ACCOUNT 11140004 138,281.34CR 138,281.34CR
I 13JLV93 DAMID DOVLE 138,414.09DR
RETENTION TAX 49.09DR
INTEREST APLIED - 181.SCR 0.00C +

Cffid 1 - Exit,
A
( (
 r>

CORRIGAN & CORR1GAN

DUBLIN 2
a ot
3, ST. A N D R E W STREET

solicitors
TELEPHONES: 6 7 7 6 1 0 8 6 7 7 6 9 2 7 & 6 7 7 4 2 4 4
W. M. C O R R I G A N , notaay njiuc
FAX: 8 7 9 4 3 9 2
J. B. C O R R I G A N . B . C . L . NOTA*Y KJWJC
E M A I U corrlganOsecuremall.le
D. M . MURPHY. B.C.L
M . P. CORRIGAN. B.C.L, A.C.I.I.
C. G. M Z S I M O N S . B.C.L.

5 May 2000
David Doyle Esq.
Casa El Pino
Uib. Santa Petromlla
MarbelJa 29600
Malaga
Spain
OurRefi WMC/AT

Dear David
I acknowledge your letter of 2nd inst and note your queries.
The only trust that was involved, as far es I know, was the trust that was set up on 15* February
- 1965 by your father and your mother in which Joe Chariton and myself were appointed Trustees.
The assets of that trust were the shares in Thomhill Inc. and a bank account in the Bank of
Ireland. The beneficiaries of the trust were the children and grandchildren of your parents.
The shares in ThornhiH Inc. were distributed equally and as far as I know the only assets left are
some penny shares in Thornhill, which are valueless and some cash in the Bank of Ireland.
With regard to Ac Moriarty Tribunal and the paymentsfor the benefit of Mr Haughey, the first
any of us knew of this was shortly after your father's death when we were told that there was
money due to Messrs. Guinness and Mahpnfrom an account in your fathers' name which we
were told had been used for the benefit of Mr Haughey. It was at that time that we all decided
that the account should be discharged immediately as interest was running. We were also told at
that stage by Mr Traynor that there was absolutely no hope of the monies being repaid by Mr .
Haughey.
With regard to the letter from the inspectors, if you could send me a copy of that letter I will take
the matter further.
If I come across any further information, I will of course let you know.
Appendix XV (29) (1) (h)
.o

CASA EL PINO •
URB. SANTAPETRONDLLA
MARBELLA 29600
MALAGA
SPAIN.
ATdMR WILLIAM CORRIGAN.
. 2nd MAY 00

Dear Mr Corrigan
I havereceiveda letterfrom the 'Injectors'for the Moriarty Tribunal, requesting
information re any oflshore trusts , accounts etc, thai I may have been e beneficiary
o£ Including accounts, papers etc of same.
I am requesting informatwn from you that imy be in your possession re the above as a
result of you having been 'Trustee' of my late fathers estate as well as the Chairman
of Thornhill ioc. And in the light of the fact that you took control of his aflairs after
his death.
I would request that you wouldforward me information in your possession that would
come under the brief of the' Tribunal* andthe Inspectors. So that I can respond as
required by the High Court order.
The relevant documents we are all responsible to answer I believe are currently held
by Brian O Donnell and Partners. I have already addressed a similar letter to Brian
O Donnell re * ThomhtQ inc * and its Directors.

Yours Sincerely

DAVID DOYLE