So the issue here is that if you do not affirm Allaah is above the Throne to begi

n with, or that there is a Lord above the Heavens, the question of how He descen
ds does not even concern you, if we just leave to one side the fact that it is p
rohibited for you to even start asking about the "kayf" in the first place. So t
his is deception on behalf of the Jahmites on this particular issue.
Adh-Dhahabee brings, with a saheeh isnaad the following narration (in Mukhtasar
al-uluww, p. 193-194):
And Ibrahim bin Abi Talib said: I heard Ahmad bin Sa'eed ar-Ribaatee saying: I a
ttended the gathering of Ibn Tahir [the Ameer of Khurasaan] and Ishaaq [bin Raah
awaih] (d. 238H) attended. He was asked about the hadeeth of Nuzool (Descent), w
hether it is authentic. He said, "Yes". One of the chiefs (of the Ameer) said, "
How does He descend?" So he (Ishaaq) said: "Affirm Him [being above the Throne]
for me such that I can describe the descent to you" So the man said, "I affirm H
im [to be] above". So Ishaaq said, "Allaah said:
And your Lord will come, and the Angels, ranks upon ranks
Then Ibn Tahir said, "This is on the Day of Judgement O Aba Ya'qub". So he (Isha
aq) said, "And He who comes on the Day of Judgement, who prevents Him today?"
And Shaykh ul-Islaam, Abu Isma'eel al-Harawi (d. 481H) narrates, in his book "Dh
amm ul-Kalaam":
From Muhammad bin Ishaaq ath-Thaqafi: I heard Ishaaq [bin Raahawaih] bin Ibraahe
em al-Handhali (who) said: I entered one day upon [Abdullaah bin] Taahir and Man
sur bin Talhah was present with him. Mansur said to me, "O Abu Ya'qub! You say t
hat Allaah descends to the lowest heaven every night?" I said, "And we believe i
n it, but you do not believe that you have a Lord [that is] above the heaven, so
you are not in need of asking me about this?!"
We see from these narrations that Ishaaq bin Raahawaih - before answering the qu
estion - asked one of those detractors who were trying to stir the Ameer against
him, whether he affirms Allaah is above or not, and he told him that this issue
is of no concern to him because he does not affirm a Lord above the heaven in t
he first place. This is because the speech about the Nuzool branches off from th
e affirmation of the foundation, which is Allaah being above the heaven, above t
he Throne. And if this is not affirmed in the first place, then questioning the
Nuzool is false speech.
The burnout victim has no right to raise and dispute in this particular issue be
cause he does not believe - on the basis of the principles of Aristotle's Ten Ca
tegories (see here) - that there is a Lord above the heaven, or a deity above th
e Throne to begin with such that he should start asking questions about the Nuzo
ol. Thus, there is no place for him in this discussion and his entering into it
and raising it is intellectual fraud. In opposition to the Jahmites, the Salaf a
ffirmed with unanimous agreement that Allaah is above His Throne, with His Essen
ce (al-Qurtubi: see here and here) as did the Early As'haris (see here). To rais
e questions about this issue of Nuzool without first acknowledging that it is in
deed the truth that Allaah is above the Throne, with His Essence, is an intellec
tual fraud. So this victim's first discussion should be on the subject of why he
opposes the Kullaabi Ash'aris in affirming Allaah is above His Throne, With His
Essence and why he agrees with the Jahmiyyah, Mu'tazilah, the Kafir Ibn Sina an
d the later [Jahmite] Ash'aris, that Allaah is not above the Throne, with His Es
sence. If he was honest and truthful, this is the question he should be asking,
instead of asking questions related to the kaifiyyah of Allaah's Nuzool, which i
s prohibited for him to do so in the first place.
So we say to this victim, it is of no concern to you because you negate there is
a deity above the Throne to begin with (just like your predecessors, the Jahmit
es of old). So leave off this pretense and deception. This only becomes an issue
of discussion between ourselves, the followers of the Book and the Sunnah and t
he Salaf, and yourselves (the inheritors of the Philosophers of the Greeks, the
followers of the doctrines of al-Jahm and al-Ja'd) if you affirm there is a deit
y above the heaven, above the Throne, and as you do not, there is no place in th
is discussion for you at all.
Secondly: These Same Jahmite Ash'aris Do Not Utilize the Sayings of the Salaf Ex
cept as A Cover To Conceal Their Deception
To illustrate, these people are the first to spread the sayings of the Salaf tha
t "Leave these narrations as they have come, without asking how" - and they are
the first to oppose them when they start asking about the how of Allaah's Nuzool
and Allaah's istiwaa - and they raise these questions after first having presum
ed that these attributes or actions of Allaah, must be upon the manner and kayf
of the created bodies - whereas Ahl us-Sunnah deny that is the case, and leave t
he knowledge of the kayf to Allaah.
Victims Responds, Struggling with His Straight-Jacket
The victim is now responding, struggling with the straight-jacket and has claime
d:
He quotes Ishaq as if we deny Allah is above the Throne. While fact is that we o
nly deny Allah being above or rising above the Throne means Allah is located abo
ve the Throne just as we deny Allah being closer than the juglar vein means Alla
h is located near the juglar vein... I believe Allah is above the Throne higher
than you ever thought
As we have said previously, when these Jahmites say Allaah is above the Throne,
they do not mean what the Salaf meant or what the Kullaabi Ash'aris meant - whic
h is that Allaah Himself is above the Throne, separate and distinct from the cre
ation. They mean Allaah is above in terms of status and rank, and when these peo
ple come out on forums and blogs, they knowingly deceive people by this language
. See this article to understand their deception: From The Sayings Of The Jahmit
es: 'I Never Said That Allaah Is Not Above the Throne. I Said He Is Not In A Loc
ation Above The Throne' - (read here).
And their intent here is to protect themselves from the scorn that all people of
sound fitrah would show against them for rejecting that "Allaah is above the Th
rone" as the Salaf stated it and understood it, upon consensus - take a look her
e for what the Salaf were upon in this regard.
It is precisely for this reason that you have to straight-jacket these people an
d pin them down, because as Ibn Qudaamah said, there is no group of people being
more cowardly in truthfully, honestly and openly expressing their real intent i
n their statements (expressing their creed) except the Heretics and the Ash'arit
es. The victim has clearly demonstrated that deceiving the people is standard pr
actice when it comes to speaking about Allaah being "above" the Throne, and simi
lar is their way in their belief of two Qur'ans - see here. So you have to recog
nize this is a trait with these people and you simply cannot take them at face v
alue.
The Salaf, when they made takfir of the Jahmiyyah, it was not because the Jahmiy
yah were denying that Allaah is above the Throne in "rank and status", but becau
se through their belief that Allaah is in every place, they were denying Allaah
is above the Throne, with His Essence, separate and distinct from His creation.
Thus, when you see these Jahmites today saying:
...as if we deny Allah is above the Throne ... I believe Allah is above the Thro
ne higher than you ever thought..
They mean only in "status and rank". And you should know that their true and rea
l saying is the very same as the Jahmites of old, and that of Ibn Sina the Kafir
, that "Allaah is neither within the creation, nor outside of it" and the aboven
ess they speak of is an aboveness of "status and rank", it is not an aboveness i
n which Allaah actually exists, with His Essence, outside of the universe - so b
eware and beware again of the deception of these people. They say, "I affirm All
aah is above the Throne", and what they really mean is "The Throne is just a met
aphor for Allaah's dominion and Allaah is above this figurative Throne in the se
nse of rank and status" - this is how they deceive people and hide their real be
liefs from the people, because they know that the sound uncorrupted fitrah will
know that their real saying "There is no Lord above the heaven", and "There is n
o deity above the Throne" and "Allaah is not within the universe nor outside of
it" is falsehood and amounts to the non-existence of the Creator.
The Saying of Abu Uthmaan as-Saaboonee (d. 449H) Regarding the Nuzool Should Tre
at and Heal this Psychologically Deluded Victim and His Questions
Abu Uthmaan as-Saaboonee said in the book titled, "Aqeedat us-Salaf wa Ashaabil-
Hadeeth" (tahqeeq Nasir al-Juday', Dar ul-Aasimah, 1st edition, 1415H, pp. 191-2
32) - spending around 40 pages on this subject:

And the People of Hadeeth affirm the Nuzool of the Lord, Sublime and Exalted, ev
ery night to the lowest heaven without resemblance (tashbeeh) to the Nuzool of t
he created beings, and nor likening (tamtheel) or asking how (takyeef). Rather,
they affirm whatever Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) affirmed,
and they stop regarding the issue at where [he stopped]. And they pass on the au
thentic narration that has come with mention of it (the nuzool) upon its apparen
t [meaning] (dhaahir), and they leave its knowledge to Allaah.
As-Saaboonee means here that they leave the knowledge of its kayfiyyah (how it i
s, its reality) to Allaah, as is clear from the entire statement as well as what
follows. Then as-Saaboonee mentions the attributes of Majee and Ityaan (coming
and arriving) which are also mentioned in the Book of Allaah, and then regarding
all three (nuzool, majee, ityaan) he says (p. 192):

And we believe in all of that, in the manner that it came (in the texts), withou
t [asking about or specifying a] kayf. And if Allaah, the Sublime, had willed to
explain to us the kaifiyyah (how it takes place and its reality), then He would
have done so ...
Then as-Saaboonee brings the narrations from Ishaaq bin Raahawaih that we mentio
ned earlier, as well as a narration from Abdullaah bin al-Mubaarak (d. 181H), an
d we can mention here one of the narrations:
: :
Ahmad as-Sullamee and Abu Dawud al-Khafaajee said: We heard Ishaaq bin Ibraaheem
[ar-Raahawaih] al-Handhalee say: THe Ameer, Abdullaah bin Taahir said to me, "O
Abaa Ya'qub, this hadeeth that you narrate from the Messenger of Allaah (sallal
laahu alayhi wasallam), 'Our Lord descends to the lowest heaven every night', ho
w does He descend?" I said, "May Allaah honor and strengthen the ameer, it is no
t said regarding the affair of the Lord, "Kayf (how)?". Verily, He descends with
out [asking about the] kayf.
Our psychologically disturbed victim has not heeded these types of narrations an
d does not understand them, so as he struggles in his straight-jacket, we should
politely tell him that asking the type of question he is asking:
Literal descent & entering creation. assalaamu alaikum Do salafees believe Allah
's dhaat is in the lowest sky when believing Allah literally descended/moved to
the lowest sky?
Is the very same thing that Ishaaq bin Raahawaih (and others from the Salaf) spo
ke about, because all of these objections and questions which are mentioned in s
uch narrations are based upon the presumption that Allaah's Essence must leave t
he Throne and enter the creation in order for Him to descend - and it is because
those raising these questions imagined a "kayf" in their mind, and this is what
led them to such questions.
Then as-Saaboonee spends quite a few pages on mentioning all the companions that
narrated these ahaadeeth and their routes, and then he brings with his own chai
ns of narrations, such ahaadeeth. On page 222 after quoting one particular narra
tion with his chain back to Abu Hurairah (radiallaahu anhu), he says after it:
: "
I heard the Ustaadh, [Muhammad bin Abdullaah] Abu Mansoor [bin Hamshaad] saying,
after this hadeeth which he dictated to us: Abu Haneefah was asked about it and
he said, "He descends without kayf (asking 'How?')".
And some of them said: He descends with descent (Nuzool) that befits His Ruboobi
yyah (Lordship), without kayf (asking 'How?'), without His Nuzool being like the
Nuzool of the creation of vacating a place to occupy another, because He whose
Majesty is great, is purified that His attributes should be like the attributes
of the creation. As He is purified of His Essence being like the essences of the
creation, then His coming (majee'), arriving (Ityaan) and descending (Nuzool) a
re according to what befits His attributes, without tashbeeh (resemblance) and k
ayf (asking 'How?').
Then on p. 232, as-Saaboonee says:
:
I say: When the narration of the Nuzool is authentically (reported) from the Mes
senger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam), Ahl us-Sunnah affirmed it, and they accept
ed the report, and they affirmed the Nuzool upon what Allaah's Messenger (sallal
laahu alayhi wasallam) said. And they did not hold a belief of tashbeeh (resembl
ance) for it with the Nuzool of His creation. And they knew and verified [the tr
uth in the matter] and believed that the attributes of Allaah, the Sublime, do n
ot resemble the attributes of the creation, just as His Essence does not resembl
e the essences of the creation - lofty and exalted is Allaah from what the Musha
bbihah and Mu'attilah say with the great exaltation and may Allaah curse them wi
th a great curse.
The previous dosage of narrations should have sedated him somewhat and it looks
we are going to have to move up a step to the tranquilizers. This is what happen
s when instead of taking Tawheed from the Messengers, you actually take it from
the language, terminology, and classifications of the atheist Philosophers and t
he necessities arising therefrom.
The contemporary Ash'aris approach all the revealed texts through what you see a
bove. The above is the ultimate criterion as to what can and cannot be believed
about Allaah and as to what should or should not be figuratively explained. This
is the core of it all. When you see these people raising all these questions an
d objections, you should know that ultimately, this is what is behind it all. Yo
u see what is in that picture above is the basis upon which they devised an inte
llectual proof to argue that the universe is created and to convince the atheist
s of a creator. It is a corrupt and flawed proof, and since they claimed that th
e very truthfulness of the religion of Islam depends upon it, they were in turn,
forced to make all of their speech regarding Allaah to be inextricably linked t
o this same language and terminology. From this you will better grasp the nature
of the questions and doubts these people keep raising against the creed of the
Salaf.
Its Official, Ahmed Cobra the Ash'ari Needs Tranquilizers
As we suspected from the beginning, this is a very strange case and we were just
ified in opting for the straight-jacket as the first step before making any clin
ical observations.
We can see from his statement above, the victim clearly needs a dose of tranquil
izers. After smoking Aristotle's "al-Maqoolaat al-Ashar" for a few hours - [this
really sensitizes you and allows you to see Jismiyyah (kufr) in the revealed te
xts] - he thought he would go out and have a bit of fun. So he first came on the
scene with this question:
Literal descent & entering creation. assalaamu alaikum Do salafees believe Allah
's dhaat is in the lowest sky when believing Allah literally descended/moved to
the lowest sky?
And this absolutely confirms, without a shadow of doubt, what we said earlier in
this article after bringing the statement of Imaam at-Tirmidhi, that these peop
le first hold the belief (i'tiqaad) of takyeef, tashbeeh, Tajseem in their heart
s regarding what they see and read in the revealed texts. If you look at this vi
ctim and see what he has written, "Literal descent & entering creation" and the
content of his question itself, you realize he has not understood the Nuzool exc
ept in the manner of the creation, and it is built upon this false presumption t
hat his that his question arises.
...i'll do it after some one directly answers my question.IS ALLAHS DHAAT LOCATE
D IN THE LOWEST SKY?(NOTE: am not asking how Allah descened)
The question itself branches off from the issue of Nuzool, so it's a contradicti
on for it to be said, "Is Allaah's dhaat in the lowest sky?" and at the same tim
e, "I am not asking how Allaah descended" - that question only arises if you hav
e presumed a "kayf" in your mind for Allaah's Nuzool - which is what the victim
is doing.
To remove him from his misery:
Ahl us-Sunnah hold that Allaah is above the heaven, above His Throne, and that w
hen He descends, He does not leave the Throne, and that He always remains above
the Throne, (and this means that the second heaven is not above Him) and the rea
lity of this descent is unknown to us and it is not fathomable, and it is unlike
the descent of created beings, and since we do not know the reality of how Alla
ah's dhaat (essence) is, then we do not know the realities of His attributes and
actions, from them the Nuzool. The way of the Salaf is to affirm the narrations
without asking "how?" And anyone who asks the question "Is Allaah's dhaat locat
ed in the lowest sky?" has only asked this question because of the presumption o
f tashbeeh and Tajseem in his heart that Allaah's descent must be like that of c
reated bodies, like that of a person descending from the roof of a house such th
at the roof becomes above him - as has been explained by Ibn Taymiyyah previousl
y in this article. And Allaah is exalted and lofty above what these people presu
me with a lofty exaltation. And if you can't fathom this, then question your min
d and intellect and not the revealed texts.
It appears this case has come to an abrupt end, at the hands of the patient hims
elf that is. Hence, we can wrap up and write our little report with the appropri
ate recommendations.
Case Diagnosis and Summary Report
As this was a live, real-time case, there is not much to add to a diagnosis, as
most of this has been done already in what has preceded.
In summary, we say that the victim has been snorting Aristotle's "al-Maqoolaat a
l-Ashar" for too long (without realizing what it actually is - he may have been
spiked) and this took a toll on his perception of the revealed texts such that t
he only thing he was able to see and presume from them is Tajseem and tashbeeh.
This led the poor victim to start asking questions that only arise and follow on
from such presumptions of tashbeeh and Tajseem, and which are baseless question
s in the first place.
New Venture Announcement! Due to the very sad nature of this case that we have j
ust experienced and witnessed first hand, and due to the compulsive behaviour of
this victim (who until now is still persisting in his baseless question), we ha
ve felt it very necessary to open our next not-for-profit venture, in addition t
o our Clinic. It is "The AA" - "Aristotelians Anonymous" or perhaps "Ash'aris An
onymous" (we are undecided on the name yet). This is a support group to help vic
tims detoxify their systems from the harmful effects of the language and termino
logy of atheist Philosophers (jism, jawhar, 'arad and so on) which they have mad
e to be the foundation of Tawheed and the foundation of the veracity of the very
religion itself. And likewise, (on the basis of this language and terminology)
they have treated the revealed texts to be the foundations of Tajseem and tashbe
eh. And thus we see a clash between the Tawheed of the Messengers and the Aristo
telian Tawheed of the Mutakallimoon. All of this is clearly leading them to hall
ucinate Tajseem in the revealed texts when there is in fact no such thing. Whils
t our Clinic is fine for mild to moderate cases, compulsive cases (such as this
one) need specialized treatment, so as time allows, we will be developing a Deto
x program to help victims get back upon the language and terminology of the Tawh
eed of the Messengers. If you would like to help the poor victims that you come
across, please send them to our Clinic for now, until we get the support group u
p and running. You see we really do feel sorry for these people, they are our Mu
slim brothers and sisters who have unfortunately been caught up in something tha
t is very hard to let go - the disease and Intoxication of of the mind is more s
evere than the disease and Intoxication of the body - so they need as much suppo
rt and help as possible.
Update: Upon a recommendation from a reader that we call our new not-for-profit
venture "Aristotelians Anonymous", we've decided to go along with it. "Aristotel
ian Anonymous" is the new support group to be launched soon, and will consist of
a Detox protocol for affected and intoxicated minds. Having said that we must c
learly distinguish the Kullaabi Ash'aris - who despite being influenced by what
the Jahmiyyah and Mu'tazilah took of these notions (based upon Aristotelian Meta
physics) in devising an intellectual proof to show the universe is created and h
as a creator (and were therefore lumped with sticking to this same language in a
ll their speech about Allaah) - these early Kullaabi Ash'aris were nevertheless
much better all round and affirmed most of what Ahl us-Sunnah affirmed, with the
exception of the Sifaat Fi'liyyah (actions tied to Allaah's will). So we clearl
y distinguish them and give them some respect, as opposed to the later Jahmite A
sh'aris who practically reverted to much of what the Mu'tazilah and Jahmiyyah we
re upon. Clear proof by way of some examples: Their saying that "Allaah is neith
er within the universe nor outside of it" (thank you for that Ibn Sina you shrew
d Kafir), and likewise using the same ta'weels of the Jahmiyyah and Mu'tazilah f
or the attributes of "hands" (al-yadaan) for Allaah - that it is favor or power
(ni'mah, qudrah) which the early Kullaabi Ash'aris refuted.
So "Aristotelian's Anonymous" it is.
Recommendations and Remedy
As this is a compulsive case, unfortunately, you are going to have to wait for t
he opening of "The AA" (should not be too long). In the meanwhile, we advise you
to print off and read this article five times daily.