Gender Neutrality : Ladyada :: Sophie Le-Phat Ho ::

Abstract: On July 23rd 2006 in New York City, I sat down with
artist/engineer Ladyada, who presented at the HOPE #6 hacker
conference and is also a fellow at the media arts centre, Eyebeam, in
NYC. We talked about mobility and hacking, about gender neutrality and
third wave feminism.
Sophie: What have you been doing so far at this conference?
Ladyada : We did two talks. One was with senior editor of MAKE
magazine, Phillip Torrone. We talked about how people for the past
couple of decades have not been hacking electronics or devices as
much, and how the commoditisation of electronics, gadgets and
computers actually makes it easier for us, not harder, to go in and
modify these devices, and hack and improve them because they're so
cheap and there is so much information available.
Like MAKE magazine and me, for instance. In a way, we're sort of
separate... They're more about taking small devices and hacking them,
whereas I start from the very beginning and building them from
scratch. But it's very similar... It's about taking electronics that
are out there and getting involved and not having this black box -
this VCR, TV, or mini-disc - going inside and actually learning about
it.
S: So what was your first hacking intervention?
L: The cell phone jammer was the first really big one. As a kid, I
really didn't know what I was doing. I probably did something really
bad! I did the cell phone jammer talk today: we talked about how to
build them. Mitch Altman, the inventor of TV-B-Gone, is about turning
off TV's. I'm about turning off cell phones. So we talked about the
social implications of giving people power over their environment.
S: Do you see a direct link between the freedom of people to move and
the social defence technology that you are developing?
L: Well, I definitely think that one of the really important things
about mobility is that you no longer have a home that's a "home" -
your home travels with you. It ties into the personal space stuff I
was talking about: when your home is six feet around you, you can't
get peace - as opposed to when you're travelling around a lot in alien
cities. I think the cell phone problem isn't a big deal in places
where people aren't mobile. For example, NYC is really bad because
everyone is really mobile and so they feel like they're entitled to do
whatever they want, carrying their office with them. And then there's
people that say "look, I don't want to carry my office with me, I just
want some peace and quiet." So it does relate, it's a small sliver...
You see artworks that talk about personal space, inflatable houses,
carriages that are homes; it's also about safety and security. But
this is about radio frequency security; visual security, not physical
security. Small sliver, but related.
S: Is this your first HOPE conference?
L: No, I've been going for a couple of years. I think this is probably
my fifth one. I started going at the second one. But this year was the
first time I presented.
S: How do you find it this year?
L: Good. Presenting is different... When you present, you don't party
as much! I had this presentation at 10 am this morning. But it's good.
One good thing about presenting is that you feel you are adding to the
body of knowledge, which is quite important. People come to me and
tell me "wow, I know a lot of stuff about this, but I never actually
thought of telling people about it." I don't know that much about
building cell phone jammers actually, I just stumbled around and
figured it out, but friends of mine tell me all the technical details
that I haven't thought of. This is awesome. This doesn't happen when
you're only going as a participant; you don't get as much information,
you don't connect with people as well.
S: Do you have any thoughts on the relationship between gender and
hacking from participating to the conference? Why do you think there
is a minority of women?
L: Well, it's interesting because if you look at hacking, it comes
from computer science. And if you look at the first computer
scientists, they were all women. I'm not convinced there're actual
physical reasons why there are fewer women in computing. It's not a
capability thing. It's harsh - I've been into three fights already.
Not fights, but this guy comes up to me and says "you're wrong, you
don't know what you're doing, blablabla" and so I said "ok, I need to
get into a fight with you now"... It's not hard. It's like a pain in
the ass. It's one of the stresses of coming to a conference - while
people are being very supportive, there is constantly this push and
shove. And I know a lot of women who find it's too much for them: "I
can't do a PhD, I can't do this for another four years, it's just too
stressful." But it's also good because it forces you to be so good.
For instance, I could have presented this stuff two years ago but
didn't. I had to have it so together that there's an armour saying
"you can't get to me because I just know more than you so don't even
step." Which is unfortunate, and it also means that you get defensive
and angry. And it's sad because it doesn't have to be that way.
But I don't think it really matters whether there are more women or
fewer women hacking. It's just more important that people do it. I
don't approach things in a feminist way. I don't approach it in a way
where I have to get more women to hack. I definitely support women
doing electronics, but I'm more involved in just gender neutrality. I
just want to open it. All my projects are gender-neutral. People ask
me how that is possible. You can, it's so easy. There are ways to
approach it. I see websites where they make really sexist jokes; you
don't have to do that. It's depressing... So I try to approach it from
a neutral point of view: it's not male, it's not female. I'm female,
but guys can do this and women can do this - it's open to all.
But it's kind of bad. Even on the analogue music list... Do I have to
hear another story about your girlfriend? It's girlfriend, wife,
girlfriend, wife... "Oh my girlfriend is really awesome, she doesn't
mind that I spend all my money on synthesizers, what's sexier?" It's
so stupid. It's like the hacker porn thing (being sold at the vendor
space), it's just dumb. If he did a good job, I wouldn't mind, but
it's just stupid.
S: But have you found some kind of improvement or change as you have
attended the conference throughout the years?
L: Err, no. It's been the same. It's the same all the time. But I
think what's interesting is that as people get older, they change. The
good thing about something like suffrage is everyone knows women so I
think there will definitely be improvement with women standing up in
almost anything - way before we solve the problem of racism or
homophobia. I'm just sure about it because hackers can be assholes
when they're young, but then they grow up and get girlfriends or wives
(assuming they're straight). Then they realise women don't suck...
S: OK, let's talk about Eyebeam (2). You are a researcher there, is
that correct?
L: Yeah, Eyebeam is a local media arts gallery and it's really neat.
Basically, they got some funding from arts organisations but also from
the MacArthur Foundation (3). There are four technologists/artists and
we all work on different projects. It's like artist-in-residencies so
we get a stipend and a work space, we come in four days/week and we
work on projects. I work on kits and I'm trying to do more pedagogical
stuff. There is also the Graffiti Research Lab that do some work here.
The whole point is to release all your work. Again, once you start
releasing work, other people realise they want to release their work
too, not realising before how easy and so fulfilling it is. With the
internet, it's so easy now; if you can blog, why not give away
information too? And there are websites that support that. I think
Eyebeam is definitely a good program; it's already there.
S: Is that why you decided to apply as a fellow there? What attracted
you to Eyebeam?
L: Yeah, I was already doing this stuff and so I could just go there
and it will be good environment. And I'll be able to be focussed
because it takes a long time to do electronic projects. For instance,
Mitch Altman at his talk said it took him a year solid to do
TV-B-Gone, and at least three years to get around it... So it takes a
lot of time! All my projects take several months even if they look
very simple.
S: So the basic support you get there is your stipend and...
L: And equipment, a desk... John Johnson, the founder of Eyebeam, got
me a spectrum analyser without hesitating - something I could not
afford myself and without which I could not complete the cell phone
jammer.
S: Do you have any thoughts about attitudes toward gender at Eyebeam?
L: I think it's fine. There are a lot of people. The Graffiti Research
Lab is kind of a boys group, but because graffiti is very male
dominated. But so is electronics, but again, I approach things from a
gender-neutral way. It doesn't matter to me whether a girl or a boy
comes to ask me a question. People come during office hours and it's
very open, it's free for all. I don't really believe in having
women-only workshops because it doesn't help. But I did a workshop
where a quarter of the participants were women. It's all welcome and
it's not hard to do. For instance, a girl came to me yesterday to buy
an electronic kit for her boyfriend, and I said "why don't we just
build it here?" and she said "but I don't know how" and I told her to
sit down and showed her. It's so easy...
S: That's a good point... For example, I work at Studio XX, and it
says clearly "feminist media arts centre"...
L: But feminism doesn't have to mean just women. I think that's the
great thing about third wave feminism. Guys, girls, transsexuals,
bisexuals, asexuals - whatever gender or sexuality you ascribe to,
it's open to everyone. And I think that's better. It's good to see
guys and girls working together because guys have to see what women do
too, which is not possible at an all-women workshop. For instance,
these guys were able to see this woman solder amazingly and couldn't
believe it.
S: Yeah. I mean it's a constant struggle I think at Studio XX where
you have to balance the creation of a "safe space" for women and the
other aspect that you talked about, which is the exchange and the more
organic and political aspects. So do you see it is still relevant
being pro-active with regards to the place of women in technology?
L: I think a lot of it is having more female instructors, which helps
a lot. I'm not a good teacher, but I try to teach because, again,
subverting the paradigm. Both guys and women, if they see a woman
teaching, it's non-threatening. Whereas with guys, I mean I love them,
but it's like they can't help it. They've been socialised to say "oh,
you can't do it, so I'll just do it for you." I think women understand
better, again, gender neutrality... Treat people the same. You don't
have to be obvious about it. Every person can improve on it. For
instance, MAKE magazine are selling my kits, and they had a picture
for Father's Day: this guy teaching his son how to solder. And I told
them they needed a picture of a guy teaching his daughter how to
solder so I emailed my customers because I knew at least one of them
had taught their female child how to solder. And I got this super cute
picture with this blond girl: she's soldering iron, with a
multi-meter, and learning how to build an FM radio. It's sweet. And
they put it up there, and that wasn't hard, but it helps. Even then,
just put both. That's my secret...
S: Any future projects on your schedule apart from teaching?
L: I want to finish the cell phone jammer project. I also need to
finish a big Burning Man project. I'm also working on pedagogical
systems. I want to see if I can do a web-based class. It's really
cheap: the parts cost 10 bucks. I'm into building stuff that can be
useful once built... I went to a lot of educational electronics
classes and built things that are really dumb; like flashing a light!
So I'm into building something that you can attach to your bike wheel,
for instance, and it says something, and it's cool. Guys, women, kids,
everyone loves it.
S: Are you going to go to the next HOPE conference?
L: Maybe. We'll see if there is another one. They always say they
don't know... I'll probably speak again if I do. It's another two
years from now so...
Limor Fried (Ladyada) is a recent graduate of the MIT Media Lab where
she earned a Masters of Engineering in Computer Science and Electrical
Engineering. For her thesis, Limor developed and built subversive
electronic devices, including a pair of glasses that darken whenever
television is in view and a jamming device that disables other
people's annoying cell phone conversations at the press of a button.
She releases much of her work in the form of DIY kits or instruction
sets, including persistence of vision displays for bikes, a home brew
synthesizer and a game Grrl portable Nintendo.