A look at the factors that limit female participation in instrumental jazz
Ariel Ann Alexander January 2011 DMA Jazz Candidate, University of Southern California
2 TABLE OF CONTENTS
CHAPTER 1: LITERATURE REVIEW .................................................................................................... 4 THE IMAGE OF JAZZ ..................................................................................................................................... 4 SEX STEREOTYPING OF INSTRUMENTS ........................................................................................................ 7 BEHAVIOR AND SOCIALIZATION .................................................................................................................. 9 CHAPTER 2: RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS ....................................................................... 12 CENTRAL QUESTIONS ................................................................................................................................ 12 PROCEDURES ................................................................................................................................................... 12 SUBJECTS ......................................................................................................................................................... 13 SURVEY DESIGN.............................................................................................................................................. 14 LIMITATIONS.................................................................................................................................................... 14 CHAPTER 3: DISCUSSION AND ANALYSIS........................................................................................... 15 SECTION 1: SCREENING QUESTIONS............................................................................................................... 15 SECTION 2: INTERACTIONS WITH PEERS......................................................................................................... 16 SECTION 3: INTERACTIONS WITH FACULTY ..19 SECTION 4: INTERACTIONS WITHIN THE PROFESSIONAL JAZZ COMMUNITY............................................... 26 CHAPTER 4: TRUMPET HERALD BLOG................................................................................................ 31 CHAPTER 5: CONCLUSIONS...................................................................................................................... 35 SUGGESTIONS FOR EDUCATORS...................................................................................................................... 35 SUGGESTIONS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH........................................................................................................ 37 APPENDIX A: EMAIL TO PARTICIPANTS............................................................................................. 38 APPENDIX B: SURVEY AND RESULTS.................................................................................................... 39 APPENDIX C: TRUMPET HERALD BLOG.............................................................................................. 66 REFERENCES................................................................................................................................................. 100
3
Abstract Although studies have found that females are equally as skilled at jazz improvisation as their male counterparts, research shows that female instrumentalists are underrepresented in academic institutions. Therefore, this author has chosen to research the factors that may deter females from participating in instrumental jazz. The first part of the authors research will focus on a literature review of the variables that may limit female participation in jazz. These include the image of jazz, instrument selection, music preference and behavior and socialization. The second part of the document will include an original study on gender discrimination. This qualitative online study will focus on three areas: discrimination by university faculty, discrimination by university peers and discrimination in the professional jazz world. Finally, the author will discuss implications of her research for music educators.
4 Literature Review In a study of 556 junior high and high school musicians at jazz band festivals, Steinberg (2001) found that only 30% of the participants were females (Steinberg, 2001, p. v). Similarly, Barber (1999) studied thirty-nine New Jersey high schools and found that although females made up 48% of the schools bands, they only accounted for 24% of jazz ensemble membership (Barber, 1990, p. 94). Although we know that females are participating in instrumental jazz at a lesser rate than males, studies have shown that females are equally able when it comes to jazz improvisation. Madura (1996) found that gender demonstrated nonsignificant relationships with achievement in vocal jazz improvisation (Madura, 1996, p. 264). Similarly, studies by Hores (1977) and Bash (1984) did not find gender to be significantly correlated with jazz improvisation achievement (Madura, 1996, p. 265). Wehr-Flowers (2006) states that because research thus far has failed to find differences in the skills of males and females in the field of jazz improvisationwe must then look to alternative possibilities for the gender inequality in the jazz field (Wehr-Flowers, 2006, p.347). This author believes that the main factors that contribute to lack of female participation in instrumental jazz include the masculine image of jazz, sexual stereotypes of instruments, the behavioral and social differences between males and females and sexual discrimination.
The Image of Jazz Since its inception, the jazz scene has been viewed as a world of men. Jazz history textbooks tell the story of an exclusive world of male musicians roughing it on the road, 5 tearing it up in legendary jam sessions, waxing creative in clubs (Tucker, 1999, p.71). These masculine stereotypes associated with jazz have likely deterred many females from participating in instrumental jazz. Dahl (2004) notes the following: Jazz is full of masculine metaphors, the sense of a fraternity or a male club is everywhere evokedclearly the qualities needed to get ahead in the jazz world were held to be masculine prerogatives: aggressive self confidence on the band stand, displaying ones chops, or sheer blowing power. (Dahl, 2004, pp. ix-x) Monson also comments that the symbolic intersection of masculinity, music, and race perhaps explains the persistence of jazz as a fraternity of predominantly male musicians (Monson, 1995, p. 405). Finally, in a study of teenagers, North, Colley and Hargreaves (2003) found that gender stereotyping effects were overwhelmingly confined to jazz, which was also the most sex-typed genre and was perceived as more male (North, Colley, & Hargreaves, 2003, p. 139). Another deterrent for women has been the lack of female role models. Throughout much of the twentieth century, the skills of jazz were often taught and learned in jazz clubs as opposed to the academic world. The funky and often dangerous playing atmospheres, nightclubs infested with vice and run by gangsters made it impractical and unsafe for females to attend late night jam sessions and participate in the jazz community (Dahl, 2004, p.x). During the early and mid twentieth century, many jazz musicians made their living by touring with big bands. These bands rarely included female instrumentalists. Gourse (2000) states that men didn't want women on the bandstands or in the tour buses. Women could provoke romantic rivalries between band members, invite problems with men in audiences, and require their own sleeping accommodations 6 (Gourse, 2000, p. 1). Not surprisingly, there are very few females to look to as role models in instrumental jazz. We know that females in general are largely absent from music textbooks in general (Koza, 1994). Steinberg notes that most jazz textbooks only mention women pianists and vocalists (Steinberg, 2001, pp. 16-17). In an interview on National Public Radio, Beverly Monson and Sally Placksin explained that in early jazz, it was only acceptable for females to play piano or sing. Monson notes that Nice young ladies of the nineteenth century played parlor piano and singing in Western culture has always been coded as a female activity (National Public Radio, para 1). Similarly, Beverly Placksin explains: Blowing a horn or making that kind of powerful musical sound was not considered to be feminine. It was not within the stereotyped view ofwhat was female. The singers, the pianists, the women were doing things that were considered acceptable for women, were being coveredbut these other women that were playing instrumentsdoing roles that were considered non-traditional roles for women were completely out of the history. They just didnt exist in the pages of jazz history. (National Public Radio, 2010, para 2)
Research has also shown that female jazz instrumentalists are underrepresented in the academic world. In the 2003 National Association of Music Education, only 23% of the teachers who identified jazz as one of their specialties were female (McKeage, 2004, p.344). This shortage of prominent female figures is problematic because studies have shown that women are more successful if they are given female role models, especially in 7 male-dominated careers. Fisher notes that the quest for role models is about trying to solve a problemthe problem of how to make a life that is different from our mothers and perhaps at odds with our contemporaries (as cited in Steinberg, 2001, p. 10). Similarly, Gould (2000) states that although women chose men as role modelsthese choices may be simply a matter of necessityWomen performwith greater success when the role models with whom they interact are women (Gould, 2001, p. 9). Finally, Tidball (1973) found that females who graduated from womens colleges (and had female teachers) were about twice as likely to be successful in their careers than those who attended coeducational colleges (Tidball, 1973, p. 132). With the masculine stereotypes of jazz combined with the lack of female role models, young women may simply may not realize that pursuing jazz is an option for them. However, research indicates that if young girls could identify with female role models, they would be more likely to pursue jazz.
Sex-Stereotyping of Instruments In addition to the sexual stereotypes associated with jazz musicians, many studies have proven that we also associate certain musical instruments with male or female characteristics. Dahl (2004) notes that the notion that certain musical instruments are unfeminine appears to be as old as music itself (Dahl, 2004, p.39). Ables and Porter conducted the landmark study on the sexual stereotyping of instruments in 1978. The researchers studied adult and child musicians and non-musicians. They found that the drums, trombone and trumpet were seen as masculine instruments, while the flute and the violin were perceived as feminine (Ables & Porter, 1978). Ables and Porter also found 8 that children are less likely to hold sexual stereotypes about instruments before elementary school. Finally, they determined that the way in which instruments are presented to a child heavily influences his or her instrument choice (Ables & Porter, 1978). Since this 1978 study, more recent researchers have revisited the issue of sexual stereotyping of instruments. In 1992, Denzell and Leppla recreated the Ables and Porter study, concluding that instrument positions on the masculine-feminine continuum have remained relatively stable since the 1978 study (Delzell & Leppla, 1992, p.100). Similarly, in 1994, Zervoudakes & Tanur sampled six hundred schools to find that there is no evidence that the proportion female among the people playing "male" instruments has changed over time (Zervoudakes & Tanur, 1994, p. 65). Zervoudakes & Tanur also found that although more females are participating in college bands and orchestras since 1978, when we take the increased proportion of instrumentalists who are female into account, the proportion female playing "female" instruments increases over time while the proportion female among those playing "male" instruments remains the same or actually decreases (Zervoudakes & Tanur, 1994, p. 65). In a 2006 study, Sinsabaugh researched students who crossed over gender stereotypes when they selected musical instruments. Sinsabaugh found that for those students who played a non-typical instrument for their gender, it was important that the students had music teachers, general teachers, parents, and friends who were supportive of their instrument selection (Sinsabaugh, 2006, p. 182). Sinsabaugh also noted that the girl students in the study who crossed over gender stereotypes seemed to enjoy being different and unique, and liked the attention they received from playing their instruments. 9 Their parents were vocal and supportive in helping them feel they could be themselves (Sinsabaugh, 2006, p. 191). This author suggests that instrument selection and sexual stereotyping of instruments has a large influence on female participation in instrumental jazz. Of the seven typical instruments in a jazz big band, five of these instruments are categorized by researchers as masculine (Ables & Porter, 1978; Griswold & Chroback, 1981; Zervoudakes & Tanur, 1994). Unless a band director starts a combo program or facilitates jazz ensembles made up of non-traditional instruments, it is likely that the students who do not play masculine instruments simply do not get exposed to jazz in the educational setting. These students, by default are not given the opportunity to choose whether or not to pursue jazz. Ables and Porter note, The sex-stereotyping of musical instruments, therefore, tends to limit the range of musical experiences available to male and female musicians in several ways, including participation in instrumental ensembles and selection of vocations in instrumental music (Ables & Porter, 1978, p. 65).
Behavioral and Socialization The behavioral and social tendencies of females often conflict with the inherent traits of jazz. Carol Gilligan (1982), found that males and females differ fundamentally in how they form and develop their identities. While females form their identity based on connectedness and relationships, males form their identity based on independence and separation (Gilligan, 1982). Similarly, Madden (2008) notes that females construct their view of the world around concern for connection, relationships, and responsibility toward others rather than a concern for autonomy (Madden, 2008, p.33). Researchers have also 10 discovered differences in the way men and women identify with music. Christianson and Peterson (1988) found mens use of music as central and personal and womens as instrumental and social (Macdonald, Hargreaves, & Miell, 2002, p.125). This female tendency to define herself based on interaction with others is at odds with the individualistic essence of jazz improvisation. Ulanov notes that self-identity and self- expression are some of the most important and defining traits of jazz (Ulanov, 1979). Similarly, Gennari states that jazz improvisers constantly seek to establish difference- to distinguish their voice from those of other performers (Gennari, 1991, p.450). Researchers have also found differences in the way men and women view motivation and success. Eccles notes: Women have lower expectations for their success, are less confident in their achievement-related abilities, are more likely to attribute their failures to lack of ability, are less likely to attribute their success to ability, and are more likely to exhibit a learned helpless response to failure. (Eccles, 1987, pp.165-166) Another factor that may deter females from pursuing jazz is the competitive, head to head, nature of this art. Many common practices in jazz, such as cutting contests and trading fours, are based around not only competition, but actually dominating the bandstand in such a way as to make others back off (Rutkoff & Scott, 1996, p.94). This emphasis on competition conflicts with female behavior. Eccles (1987) writes that Femalesappear to find [competitive] environments less motivating than males. In addition, some females appear to find such environments aversive, leading them to learn less in such classrooms and perhaps to avoid situations and environments that they anticipate as being competitive in the future (Eccles, 1987, p.159). Horner (1972) also 11 found that women showed a great amount of anxiety about competitive environments, stating that success in competitive achievement activity, especially against men, produced anticipation of certain negative consequences, for example, threat of social rejection and loss of femininity (Horner, 1972, p. 125). A final factor that may impact the motivation of females as opposed to males is that females are less likely to see pursuing or studying jazz on having an impact on their future. In a 2004 study, Mckeage found that women did not see a connection between playing in jazz ensemble and their success or opportunities in the future. She also found that women ranked my future in music does not include jazz as the main reason that they chose to quit jazz ensemble (McKeage, 2004, p.353). It is no surprise that these various behavioral traits prohibit many females from playing jazz. Wehr-Flowers (2006) found that while males foresee more positive consequences from success in jazz improvisation, females are significantly less confident, more anxious, and have less self-efficacy (attitude) towards learning jazz improvisation (Wehr-Flowers, 2006, 345-346).
12 Research Design and Methods
Central Questions This author chose to conduct an original study to discover if sexual discrimination is one of the factors limiting female participation in jazz. This author was not able to find any previous studies that investigated sexual discrimination in either the academic or professional jazz worlds.
Procedure This qualitative research study was conducted over the internet. By conducting the study online, this author believed that she could obtain many results in a short period of time. The online research method also allowed study participants to remain anonymous. Because of the sensitive nature of the study, this author believed that more females would choose to participate in the study if their identities were unknown, even to this author. The study was created through the online survey tool, Survey Monkey (www.SurveyMonkey.com), and responses were collected for seven days. Participants for the survey were recruited via electronic communication. The author asked for participation in three main ways: 1. Direct emails sent to female jazz instrumentalists with whom she had had prior contact. A copy of this email can be found in Appendix A. 2. Emails sent to Jazz Department heads at over seventy universities. Universities were selected from the Jazz Education section of the 13 Thelonious Monk Institutes online Jazz Resource Library. http://www.jazzinamerica.org/JazzResources/JazzEducation/College 3. Message boards and email lists for several female jazz organizations and ensembles, including IAJE Sisters in Jazz, DIVA Jazz Orchestra and Maiden Voyage Orchestra. Participants were asked to visit the following website to complete the online survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/femalejazz
Subjects In order to qualify to take the online survey, subjects were asked to fulfill three qualifications. 1. They were female 2. They were an instrumentalist 3. They had been a jazz major or minor at a university within the last eight (8) years
Out of the subjects (n=155) that took the online survey, (n=17) were not able to continue the study because they indicated that they not female, (n=5) were not able to continue because they indicated that they were not instrumentalists and (n=24) were not able to continue because they indicated that they had not been a jazz major or minor at a university in the last eight years.
14 Survey Design The survey was divided into four main sections: Section 1: Introduction, screening questions and definitions Section 2: Interactions with peers Section 3: Interactions with faculty members Section 4: Interactions with members of the jazz community
Each survey question had a Yes/No answer choice. In sections two, three and four, subjects were given the option to elaborate on their answers via the write-in section. A copy of the entire survey can be found in Appendix B.
Limitations There are substantial limitations to this study because the research did not focus on a random sample of participants. Several factors may have contributed to sample bias. Firstly, the author did not restrict access to the online survey. Therefore, it is possible that some of the participants that completed the survey did not fulfill the three qualifications listed above. Moreover, it is also possible that the specific participants who completed the survey, especially the written section, were those who were especially interested in sharing their experiences. It is also possible that those females with more positive experiences were less likely to have completed the survey. Furthermore, some of the responses may be fictitious or exaggerated. Finally, this author stopped the study after seven days, which lead to an arbitrary number of participants. It is important that this 15 study be viewed as a qualitative, not quantitative research project. Finally, the data collected should not be used to draw conclusions about all female jazz instrumentalists.
Results and Analysis Note that spelling and grammatical errors in participants written responses have not been edited.
Section 1: Screening Questions Question 1: Are you a female? One hundred fifty-five participants chose to answer this question. Out of these participants, 89% (n=138) answered yes, and 11% (n=17) answered no.
Question 2: Are you an instrumentalist? One hundred fifty-five participants chose to answer this question. Out of these participants, 96.8% (n=150) answered yes, and 3.2% (n=5) answered no.
Question 3: Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate OR graduate) or have you been a jazz major or minor at a university in the last eight (8) years? One hundred fifty-five participants chose to answer this question. Out of these participants, 84.5% (n=131) answered yes, and 15.5% (n=24) answered no.
16 NOTE: Participants who answered no on one or more of the previous three questions were not allowed to continue the survey.
Section 2: Interactions with Peers
Question 4: Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other jazz majors or minors at your university? Ninety-eight (98) participants chose to answer this question. Out of these participants, 35.7% (n=35) answered yes, and 64.3% (n=63) answered no. Thirty- four (34) participants chose to describe the nature of the discrimination via the write-in section. Of the thirty-four written responses, the discrimination reported by study participants fell into two main categories: sexual harassment and exclusion from peer groups. Many of the participants reported sexual harassment from their peers. One participant noted, fellow jazz majors..made me feel uncomfortable by making gestures that implied something sexual being done to my body parts. Another respondent recalled: in one ensemble in particular, I often received inappropriate remarks regarding my clothing and general appearance. There was always some sort of insinuation that I was doing something sexual if I happened to be late or had to leave early. A third participant reported that her peers often made sexually tinged requests and degrading jokes about women women bands, or female band leaders. Several respondent 17 believed that peers were more interested in them sexually then musically. One female described her peers as concerned with trying to hit on me or sleep with me, and another noted, it seemed clear that my peers were more interested in me sexually than in playing music with me. Many study participants also wrote about being excluded from their peer groups. Several respondents described being ignored and blown off by most of the department. Other participants remarked that socially it has been more difficult to hang out with other jazz majors and I feel like there is an exclusive boys club mentality that is hard to escape. Several other participants wrote that they were often excluded from after school musical activities in which their male colleagues took part. One participant noted, the discrimination I felt was being excluded from jam sessions and musical hang sessions. The feeling was that guys wanted to hang out with each other, and having a girl around killed the vibe. Another respondent described being treated as an afterthought as opposed to being the first one to be thought of for gigs, jam sessions, etc. because I might not fit into the groups vibe. Finally, one female noted, I was not part of the boys club, so my peer group was weaker and I did not benefit as much from jam sessions or practice sessions initiated by other students. It is clear that the females who chose to answer the write-in section of this questionnaire felt as though their gender greatly limited them from participating in many musical opportunities in which their male colleagues took part.
Question 5: Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration? 18 NOTE: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied yes on question four.
Thirty-six (36) participants answered this question. Out of these participants, 13.9% (n=5) answered yes, and 86.1% (n=31) answered no. Seven (7) participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section. Five participants wrote that they reported sexual discrimination to faculty or administration at their university. However, three of these five participants noted that by reporting the incident, they only escalated the discrimination. One participant wrote, the male faculty I spoke to about the instance told other faculty and made the case even worse that what it was in the beginning. Another noted that after reporting the incidence, guys still told dirty jokes as well as the head of the department. A third respondent described, I reported the incidentsto the dean and after that the ombudsmen of the school was involved but nothing was ever truly done.
Question 6: Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved in school-related activities? Note: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied YES on question one.
Thirty-six (36) participants answered this question. Out of these participants, 30.6% (n=11) answered yes, and 69.4% (n=25) answered no. Twenty-one (21) participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section. 19 Several of the participants reported that peer discrimination heavily limited their participation in school related activities. One participant noted, I became increasingly turned off to the jazz world as a whole. Another female wrote, everything from rehearsals and jam sessions to concerts [was] slightly uncomfortable. Other participants noted that discrimination caused them to go to jazz hangs a whole lot less often, lose gigs and discouraged [them] from going to jam sessions. Many other participants, however, showed an admirable sense of resilience. One participant noted, [the discrimination] made me want to do the opposite and create a scene where kick ass female musicians are dominating, and another stated in the end it makes me want to prove myself a little more. One female noted if anything it only motivates me to keep joining the gentlemans clubs of the music scene at the university, and another recalled I wanted to experience as much as I could. If I didnt get in a certain group, I made my own.
Section 3: Interactions with Faculty Members
Question 7: Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from faculty members at your university?
Ninety-six (96) participants answered this question. Out of these participants, 40.6% (n=39) answered yes, and 59.4% (n=57) answered no. Thirty-six (36) participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section. Many of the participants believed that their gender kept them from being taken 20 seriously by faculty members. One participant noted: Older faculty members condescended to me in a way that Im sure they wouldnt to a guy my age. The most recent instance happened at a recent audition- I walked in and and older guy asked me what I played. I said piano, and he said, Well, good for you! in a tone that would have been more appropriate for someone maybe 12 [years old]. Similarly, another participant recalled that several private instructors have talked to my like Im a ten year old. This is how we play jazz little girl. Other respondents noted, I felt that some faculty members simply expected less of me and therefore didn't try to engage with me as much as my peers who were male, I had a teacher tell methat he didnt know how to teach me because I had feminine energy, and I could not find a teacher that took me seriously and demanded from me what he might a male student. Finally, several participants wrote about being denied opportunities offered to their male peers. One participant wrote, I do sometimes get the sense that certain male faculty members are not as willing to start a close mentor-student relationship with me because I am a female, and another recalled: A certain faculty member gave a younger male classmate of mine all kinds of outside opportunities that I would have loved to have a chance to experience and learn from and get paid for. Since I was more advanced as a player, I wondered about this so I finally asked the faculty member about it and he said that the other student needed this experience in preparation for his career. Over fifteen of the participants wrote that their professors made inappropriate sexual jokes and innuendos. One participant wrote, he had a habit of making sexual 21 jokesI am not the first female that he has discriminated against- I know of two other females that have shared similar stories. Another wrote: With my majors professor, it was instances of him including inappropriate references to female body parts or sexual activities; such as blowing your vagina off or she must have given him a really good blow job (in the topic of conversation why a soloist was chosen). Several participants wrote about being alienated in front of their classmates. One participant noted that her professor made an offhand jokesaying my composition was not so organized because I am female, and another recalled: On the first day of class my jazz composition teacher pointed at me (the only female in the room), asked me my major (jazz voice performance), and stated unequivocally that I was going to have difficulty in this class because vocalists don't know how to write. He did not bother to consider that not only was I a multi- instrumentalist. Another female noted, one teacher would insinuate that I was dating various members of the class. A final participant wrote, a tenured faculty membersaid during a big band rehearsalthat women didnt have the bravado necessary to take impassioned solos or to be lead trumpet players. Several participants noted that their professors made inappropriate comments about their appearance and clothing. Im a pianist, and a teacher once advised me to take up singing because people like to see a nice looking girl sing and play piano. Another wrote, my trombone teacher told me I should be a model, and a singer. Others comments included: A faculty member told me to wear something shiny with bra straps showing to a gig with a school combo and many jazz professors make sexist jokes and 22 remarks, such as talking about putting me on stage in fishnets and stilettos. Finally, one participant remarked that in my improvisation final, my teacher told me not to be afraid to dress more femininely." Several participants reported that faculty members treated them more as dates and less as students. One participant wrote, a faculty member asked me to close the door to his office so we could talk, then cracked open a bottle of wine and offered me some. Others said that professors would offer to have lessons at their place of residence and one professor insisted on going to dinner in place of a lesson and regularly made inappropriate innuendos. Finally one participant recalled that she was hired as secretarial assistant to a jazz professor based on looks and gender alone. He took me out to an expensive dinner as a "job interview," buying me lots of alcohol. Several of the participants reported verbal and physical sexual advances from Jazz Studies faculty members at their university. They described multiple verbal advances from a faculty member, inappropriate physical contact from an instructor, and advancesfrom private instructors on numerous occasionsat least three different teachers. One participant recalled that a faculty member told me I had sexy legs, among many other sexual comments. Others noted: I heard a faculty member whistle as I walked down the hall from my practice room, I was told by a teacher to do my homework or I would get a spanking, and I was asked for a kissin exchange for the use of rehearsal space. Participants also reported physical advances. One participant recalled: One faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting a massage with oils during an ensemble. Finally, one respondent wrote: 23 I had a private lesson teacher who used to hit on me all the time. The first few lessons went by without a hitch, then he started in. First how pretty I was, and just small things here and there. By the end of the semester he was actually telling me he wanted to have sex with me in every lesson.
Question 8: Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or to the administration? Note: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied yes on question seven.
Thirty-seven (37) participants answered this question. Out of these participants, 24.3% (n=9) answered yes, and 75.7% (n=28) answered no. Ten (10) participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section. Two of the participants wrote that they were afraid to report the discrimination. One participant noted, I could not risk this person ruining my chances in other classes. I sincerely wanted and need to succeed in my studies and I felt that reporting it might be detrimental to my future relations with other teachers and perhaps my peers. Another participant explained, I knew that reporting these incidences would ostracize me even more from the department. The whole department is a mens club and reporting one of them would make the rest of them hate me. Two of the participants reported that the offending faculty member was fired. However, one of the participants noted: The teacher was fired. However - not without a debacle, about how they were going to have use my name in a meeting with him to 24 explain who had filed a complaint. I expressed extreme concern over this - cause this guy seemed like he might fly off the handle to me. Finally, several of the participants reported that after reporting the discrimination to other faculty members, they were not happy with the results. One participant wrote: I reported when one faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting a massage with oils during an ensemble. I ended up going straight to the Chair of the Music Department (she was female). She understood, but ended up telling the Program Coordinator (who was male), who made me tell him about it (I didn't feel comfortable talking to him about it in the first place which is why I went to the Chair), and then he talked to the faculty member about it directly (which is also what I specifically asked him not to do, because then he knew I complained about him to administration). The accused faculty member ran for Department Head and didn't get it. Essentially he was not reprimanded, and I was embarrassed further. Many male students in the department heard about this and were annoyed that I might have messed with his election for department head. Another participant wrote: It turned out that the faculty who tried to massage my shoulders was known to all female students in the program as being inappropriate. Almost all of the female students had reported to the head of the program, but we were very disappointed to find out that nothing was done to keep him from becoming a tenure at the school.
25 Question 9: Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, combos, private teachers, ensembles, etc.? Note: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied yes on question seven.
Thirty-six (36) participants answered this question. Out of these participants, 52.8% (n=19) answered yes, and 47.2% (n=17) answered no. Twenty-five (25) participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section. In the written section, many of the participants noted that they avoided certain professors for private lessons. Participants wrote: I wouldnt want to be stuck in a room alone with creepy guy, I chose not to study with the teacher who had been discriminating, and I switched teachers after several inappropriate comments. One participant wrote: Since I have refused to have these lessons at their places of residence, they have thus refused to teach me. Many of the respondents also wrote about avoiding certain classes and ensembles. One female explained: I was determined not to take another class from this teacher, so I appealed to my advisor to "pass out" of the next requirement taught by him. Two participants wrote about avoiding ensembles. One noted I have no control over whether he is my combo teacher or not, but I try to avoid him because he makes me very uncomfortable and nervous Finally, two participants noted that the discrimination caused them to change schools. One described: I was advised not to take certain classes because some of the faculty members were rumored to say inappropriate things about their female students. 26 Other faculty members openly preferred not have female students. I eventually transferred universities.
Section 4: Interaction with Colleagues in the Professional Jazz World
Question 10: Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the professional jazz world (gigs, jam sessions)?
Ninety participants (90) answered this question. Out of these participants, 56.7% (n=51) answered yes, and 43.3% (n=39) answered no. Forty-nine (49) participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section. Many of the females wrote that in the professional jazz world, their appearance is often stressed over their musical ability. Several respondents described being hired simply for their looks. One participant notes that she got a gig with another female musician and was hired without them hearing how we played. Was told basically that we had the right look. Other respondents described being hired because I am a female and they wanted me in a dress, overt comments such as just stand there and look pretty and being requested to 'make sure you dress sexy.' Other participants noted that audience and band members often focus on their appearance rather then their playing. One respondent wrote that people are much more likely to comment on how I look playing, rather than how I sound. Over fifteen of the respondents described discrimination at jam sessions. One participant recalled: There was one time at the Smoke jam session I was on the list to sit 27 in and play, and I felt like it had been over and hour and other guys had gone up more than once to play. Others comments include: at jam sessions, when people don't know me (before they hear me play), they tend to treat me like I can't play, at jam sessions, I've heard people whisper "is she good?" before deciding which tune I should play, I have frequently been put on hold and then asked to play with the weakest, least experienced musicians in the room and when I go on stage at a session in a city where Im unknown, people are looking at me as if they cant believe that I can play and ask me "is a blues in F ok for you?" Finally, one respondent wrote: I guess anything goes at jam sessions. I've had people be outright offensive to me as in sit down little girl you can't handle this. Many of the participants explained that their fellow band mates do not take them seriously. Comments include: it does seem like I'm not taken seriously at the beginning of a gig, like people sort of look at me like who's she, when I meet people they immediately think I can't play anything and kind of laugh in my face, and on several occasions people have discounted my ability (assumed I couldnt play). Other participants describe being discounted by audience members. One participant wrote the audience often makes me feel very uncomfortable. I feel that I get some extra looks and well... lets see what SHE has to offer. Several respondents also remarked that they are often mistaken for vocalists based on their gender. One participant described: Often times I will introduce myself & tell them I'm a pianist. Their follow up question is usually, "classical?" ...assumption number 1. When I introduce myself as a musician or as a jazz musician to anyone, first question "are you a singer?" and even sometimes, how come you don't sing? Another respondent wrote that 28 musicians will often ask what are you going to sing tonight? and i'm like no, I play piano." Many participants described the reactions of fellow musicians and audience members after hearing them play. Some comments include: I've noticed that most people stare in amazement, simply because they've never seen such a small woman play such a large instrument and Im confronted often by men that are astonished that women "can" play jazz. Many of the participants reported comments from audience members and other musicians such as "I didn't expect you to have such a big sound, it was so surprising to hear such aggressive playing based on your looks, and you sound like a 40-year-old, huge black guy." Many of the respondents also remarked that they have been told that they play well for a girl. One female wrote: I hate hearing, "you play great for a girl!" or "I wasn't expecting that out of you!!" Another wrote, every time I step in to play a tune in front of a bunch of strangers, the expectations are so low that people come to congratulate me with that look you play so nice for a girl! A final participant wrote "she's a girl BUT... comes up often. Finally, several of the participants reported that they had been sexually harassed at gigs. One describes: sexual harassment, groping, unnecessary contact, insulting phrases, etc. Another wrote: Working on a cruise ship, I encountered sexual harassment from a bandleader and sound engineer. This included sexual comments on a daily basis and unwanted attention. I felt that as the only female in the group, I had to put up with the attention and be a good sport about it.
29
Question 11: Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the jazz community?
Fifty-two (52) participants answered this question. Out of these participants, 48.1% (n=25) answered yes, and 51.9% (n=27) answered no. Thirty-three (33) participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section. Many of the participants described that the discrimination in the professional jazz world has limited their involvement in the community. One participant wrote, Sometimes I dread going out, not knowing what will be said, what advances will be made. Many women wrote about avoiding jam sessions. Some responses included: I rarely go to jam sessions because of the negative behavior I have experienced at them, I avoid jam sessions all together. Generally, I feel ostracized from the jazz community which is a man's world in which I clearly don't fit in, Yes, part of the reason why I stopped going to jam sessions is because of this, and I think I would be more interested in participating in jam sessions and soliciting gigs if I didn't have to constantly overcome the expectation either that I'm a vocalist or a beginner. Other participants believed that they are often overlooked for paying gigs because of their gender. One participant wrote, if they are more likely to choose a male counterpart, then what's the point? Other participants explained: I see that guys tend to pick other guys to play drums with more often than me, and even if I'm good, they still pick someone else to play with them. I think it has to do with me being female. Several of the respondents also showed an admirable sense of resilience. One 30 participant wrote, The very real imbalance of numbers of male versus female musicians has however been a HUGE motivation for me, I'm determined to help prove that girls can play and write music just as well as guys. Another participant responded, as tough as it is sometimes I just keep pushing. I'll never let the fact that I'm a girl stop me from doing what I want to do. Finally, a several participants spoke of positive experiences in the jazz community. Some responses include: Usually we have a mutual respect for each other, and the vast majority of the jazz community has my back and will call other people out when those comments come up. 31 Trumpet Herald Blog One unexpected consequence of this research project was a series of comments, directed at this author, posted on the trumpet blog, Trumpet Herald (www.TrumpetHerald.com). One of the blog members posted the following information:
Dear Friends and Colleagues, As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I am conducting an online survey on gender discrimination in instrumental jazz.
I'm hoping you can do me a favor by forwarding this email on to any female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years.
The link for the online survey is: https://www.surveymonkey.com/femalejazz
Thanks very much,
ARIEL ALEXANDER
Following the above post, several bloggers published posts berating this author and her research. The first response to the original post is as follows: By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?
Another blogger wrote:
Aren't you ashamed to declare yourself a "doctoral student" while submitting this simplistic drivel to the worldwide trumpeting community? I sure would be. When 32 my brother was getting his "doctoral" degree in pharmacology, he had to design experiments testing the effects of various drugs on the brain receptors of epilepsy patients which involved dozens of staff and hundreds of experimental animals. Now that he teaches in a medical school, his students, who are learning to be medical "doctors" must learn to deliver babies and do brain surgery. At M.I.T. and other such institutions, "doctoral" students are plotting the architecture of the human genome. And here you are, passing around a politically correct survey that could have been designed by a high school student in her political science class. How pathetic. C'mon baby. You and your stuffy professors should get over yourselves and stop trying so hard to be "relevant."
Posts by other bloggers include the following:
The only discriminating I ever see is based on how you play. Play your ass off, good things happen.
Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors should have already pointed this out to you. Go back to the drawing board. Or better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard-earned money during this time of financial hardship.
Yeah, but WHO CARES! I'm sure there has been a lot of "gender bias" in the fishing lure business, the basket weaving business and the pet grooming business. Boo-hoo!
33 Females in the U.S.A. today have the greatest prospects for success of any cohorts their gender has ever enjoyed in the history of mankind--in spite of the horrendous state of our nation at present. So please--consider getting a real job.
This kind of research resembles something drawn up in the 80's to develop the employee manuals so many of us sign and sigh over
Several of the bloggers stated that female musicians often capitalize on their appearance in order to obtain gigs and popularity. Their posts included the following:
I wonder how popular Diana Krall would be if it she wasn't female.
Since female artists NEVER capitalize on their attractiveness
Pretty girl with a great body (who clearly utilizes it to her advantage), BUT....only marginally good technique, NOOOOO soul and can't improvise... Still on the gig.
Finally, a few of the bloggers did defend this author and her research project. Their posts include the following: I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a reasonable project. He said it is part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of gender bias in the jazz world, and it would be interesting to find out how women in the middle of it feel about the issue and how they have been effected.
34 I hope Ariel doesn't abandon her efforts on our account.
You may not appreciate Ariel's research, and you may critique it as you wish. But, there's no reason to berate her as you have.
Comments Ironically, the hostile blog responses show the great need for research in the area of gender discrimination in instrumental jazz. This irony was keenly noted by one blogger, who wrote: Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first place.
35 Suggestions for Educators In the last thirty years, jazz has made remarkable inroads in the academic world (Lutz, 1982, p.53). Because jazz is now viewed as an important part of music curricula, then educators must strive to make it equally accessible to both males and females. A number of factors are working against the participation of females in jazz activities: the masculine image of jazz, sexual stereotypes of instruments, gender discrimination and the general behavioral tendencies of females. Although educators cannot re-write jazz history, they can certainly work to break some of the barriers that stand between females and pursing instrumental jazz. Perhaps the most important step that music educators can take is to be more cautious when presenting instruments to young children. Ables and Porter found that when teachers presented more masculine instruments by showing a picture of a female playing these instruments, the female students were more likely to choose these instruments to play (Ables & Porter, 1978). Many historians stress that jazz is an integral part of American culture (Levine, 1999, p.6). General educators can also make an effort to include female examples in their discussion of jazz history. When arranging for school performances or field trips, educators can choose opportunities to see females playing both masculine and feminine instruments, in a variety of musical settings including jazz. Sigmund Freud found that in puberty, females develop like a scar, a sense of inferiority (as cited in Gilligan, 1993, p.11). Research has already proven that improvisation is an important addition to early music education (Azara, 1993). It is likely that females would be more interested in jazz if improvisation was included in music 36 curricula before adolescence. It is important that music educators make jazz accessible to all instrumentalists, including non-traditional jazz instrumentalists. Music educators can work to expose all students to jazz by forming non-traditional ensembles such as jazz flute choir or jazz string ensemble. 1 In addition, some newly developed jazz curricula such as Hal Leonards Combo Paks 2 and Jamey Aebersolds 3 play-along series can be used by all instrumentalists. Finally, because females thrive in group settings, educators should work to incorporate more group improvisation into these ensembles. Finally, it is necessary that sexual discrimination in the academic environment be stopped immediately. The above study leads this author to believe that many educators are not aware of, or do not abide by, their universitys sexual harassment policy. Title IX of the Educational Amendments of 1972 Prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in education programs and activities receiving Federal financial assistance (US Department of Education, para. 3). According to federal law, all colleges and universities have an obligation under Title IX to prevent and address harassment against students, whether perpetrated by peers or by employees of the school system (Title IX Info, para. 2). It is clear from this authors original research that many educators are not even meeting the minimal obligation of the law to treat students equally. Moreover, when sexual discrimination is brought to their attention, many educators are failing to take the necessary steps to address this discrimination and prevent further incidents.
1 Although the International Association of Jazz Educators is now defunct, past IAJE Journals would be a terrific source for information on jazz string curricula. 2 See www.HalLeonard.com 37 Suggestions for Further Research There exists little published research on intervention programs, such as the IAJE Sisters in Jazz Program. In addition, researchers have yet to examine the effects of all- female jazz bands such as Maiden Voyage and Diva. Future researchers may consider the improvisational differences of males and females and investigate the correlation between gender and compositional approach. Research shows that programs such as Operation SMART Science Programs and EQUALS (for math) have been very successful in motivating and empowering females (AAUW, 1995). Perhaps music educators can investigate the implementation of similar programs in the field of jazz. This author plans to complete another similar research project using a random sample of participants. This second study would give thce author a more accurate picture of the discrimination that females experience in both the academic and professional jazz worlds.
38 APPENDIX A: EMAIL SENT TO EDUCATORS
Hello Friends and Colleagues!
As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I'm conducting a survey on gender discrimination in instrumental jazz.
I am hoping you can take a few minutes to complete this online survey. Your responses will be absolutely anonymous.
I would also MUCH appreciate if you can forward this link on to other female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors or minors at a university or community college within the last eight years.
The link for the survey is: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/femalejazz
Thank you so much for your time and your honesty.
Sincerely, ARIEL ALEXANDER 1 of 26 Gender Discrimination in Instrumental Jazz 1. Are you a female?
Response Percent Response Count Yes 89.0% 138 No 11.0% 17 answered question 155 skipped question 2 2. Are you an instrumentalist?
Response Percent Response Count YES 96.8% 150 NO 3.2% 5 answered question 155 skipped question 2 3. Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate OR graduate) or have you been a jazz major or minor at a university in the last eight (8) years?
Response Percent Response Count YES 84.5% 131 NO 15.5% 24 answered question 155 skipped question 2 2 of 26 4. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other jazz majors or minors at your university? (NOTE: YOUR PEERS ONLY-- questions about faculty members will be later in survey)
Response Percent Response Count YES 35.7% 35 NO 64.3% 63 Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances.
34 answered question 98 skipped question 59 5. Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration?
Response Percent Response Count YES 13.9% 5 NO 86.1% 31 If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution
7 answered question 36 skipped question 121 3 of 26 6. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved in school-related activities?
21 answered question 36 skipped question 121 7. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from faculty members at your university?
Response Percent Response Count YES 40.6% 39 NO 59.4% 57 Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances.
36 answered question 96 skipped question 61 4 of 26 8. Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or the administration?
Response Percent Response Count YES 24.3% 9 NO 75.7% 28 If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution
10 answered question 37 skipped question 120 9. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, combos, private teachers, advisors, etc.?
25 answered question 36 skipped question 121 5 of 26 10. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the professional jazz world (gigs, jam sessions)?
Response Percent Response Count YES 56.7% 51 NO 43.3% 39 Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances.
49 answered question 90 skipped question 67 11. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the jazz community?
33 answered question 52 skipped question 105 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 1 It was never super obvious, but there was always this fierce feeling of competition from some, like, "there's NO way a girl is going to be better than ME". One guy actually SAID that, he said to me our freshman year "I don't know what I'll do if girl is better than me"...it was really weird. The rest of it was all very subtle, just a matter of being ignored and blown off by most of the department. Even when I changed to a differerent school, still for jazz, it was better, but about a third of the students there pretty much acted like I didnt even exist. Sep 12, 2010 11:16 AM 6 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 2 It's hard to describe the discrimination. It is more of a feeling that you are always speaking out of turn, so you better shut up. But I remember a couple times that were particularly difficult: -I was coming into the middle of a rehearsal to sub for another sax player, and he said "She's here to relieve me." The keyboard player said "Right here? We're rehearsing!" Or something of the sort. Everybody laughed. I felt like shit and it struck so fast, I couldn't even answer. -We were playing a school gig and one of the other students had one of those free newspapers with the ads for hookers in the back. That being bad enough, I still tried to make conversation about it with one of my fellow students. I don't remember what I said, but he said something like "I could get a couple brunettes like you to suck my dick for $300 bucks." It was gross. Granted, these two guys were assholes to everyone across the board. But here are some things that happened to me with the nicest of classmates: -In an improv class where I played a nice solo, the other students agreed that it was nice cause it was "feminine". -When sharing some worries with another classmate (about not being able to make it as a jazz musician) he said that I shouldn't worry so much, because I'm a girl anyway. Sep 12, 2010 4:00 PM 3 My drum professor at my masters program was not in favor of women or minorities. I was his first female drum student and every lesson etc was a very difficult environment to learn in. He was not helpful in my weaknesses so I had to seek outside assistance. The discrimination became so badd that we had an argument that resulted in me getting kicked out of his studio. His disrespect became words of verbal abuse and he called me a flake. Soon after I won the sisters in jazz award which place me as the top female drummer in the world and he could not take credt for any of it. Sep 12, 2010 4:08 PM 4 I have never experienced overt discrimination, but have had a few instances where older faculty members condescend to me in a way that I'm sure they wouldn't to a guy my age. The most recent instance happened at a recent audition - I walked in and an older guy (older than 60, perhaps near his 70s) asked me what I played. I said piano, and he said, "Well, good for you!" in a tone that would have been more appropriate for someone maybe 12 years old or younger. I've probably experienced a handful of instances like that. Sep 12, 2010 8:34 PM 5 I have been in 2 university jazz departments. One professor insisted on going to dinner in place of a lesson and regularly made inappropriate innuendos. In general, other professors have been very supportive and professional. I have had several issues with students or alumni making advances or expecting me to dress/act in a flirtations way. I am not easily offended but it's rather frustrating to be objectified. Since starting school in 2000, I have noticed a big improvement in how women are treated, at least in my world. Sep 12, 2010 9:19 PM 6 I attended a different university for my freshman year studying jazz. At that university, the man in charge of all the ensembles and also the leader of the top band that I was performing in would NOT have me solo at all. He always told me I wasn't ready, but he would let everyone else solo or take the lead in the jazz band. I was the only female in the jazz band at that time. He had a habit of making sexual "jokes" that were not appropriate. He also made racial, ethnic and religious remarks that were not welcomed by our ensemble. I am not the first female that he has discriminated against- I know of two other females that have share similar stories. Sep 13, 2010 12:37 AM 7 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 7 when I first got here a few of my male colleges my age used to tease me and make underhanded sly remarks, that when quoted directly would not seem offensive, but in context are passive aggressive and indicative that they thought they were better than me. However I've been here for three years now and I don't interact with those guys anymore and have made friends and trust people who don't discriminate based on gender, and just listen to my playing Sep 13, 2010 2:16 AM 8 It's usually very extroverted, and supposedly to be taken as a joke but at the same time, there is still that instance of sexual discrimination. It usually includes remarks of belittlement or teasing which distinctively specifics gender, or the idea that a girl is doing what a man could be doing in the same spot in the band. Sexually tinged requests are also included in this idea of teasing, such as asking the female member of the band to dress provocatively or to "dance" as they solo. Sexual discrimination also includes the idea that since she is a female, there is a choice whether or not she can join the conversation depending on the topic at hand. Sep 13, 2010 2:18 PM 9 Yes, there were a couple fellow students that were always judging me. Sep 13, 2010 3:29 PM 10 a peer said "you got that gig because you're a girl." Sep 13, 2010 5:21 PM 11 I was the top jazz drummer at Shenandoah University, so I guess they were intimidated by me, ha! The only thing they would do different was help me move my drums. People wouldn't help the guys move their drums. Sep 13, 2010 5:38 PM 12 several instances of my male peers (who i was placed above in auditions for groups) chosen for small groups Sep 13, 2010 6:03 PM 13 Making a move on me while on a trip with the big band to a jazz festival. Sep 13, 2010 6:27 PM 14 some people (also teachers) made degrading jokes about women. the male fellow students have been joking on "women bands" or female band leader, because they think they are not competent, but selling their "female looking" or so... and they use a lot of degrading words. Sep 14, 2010 7:12 PM 15 A common instance is one that many males are not aware of, and it includes remarks disguised as compliments, such as "wow, you sound like an old black man", or "wow, you sound great" which is actually the first part of a sentence that isn't finished such as "wow you sound great, for a girl". Sometimes I heard these sentences finished. And these comments are always said with much awe and surprise. "Wow, I've never heard a girl play like that". Really, it is exposing the person's own ignorance, but it is still a negative comment and annoying to hear. It is demeaning and shows an example of how we are not considered on the same level or playing field when being listened to. Also, there are comments such as "play with balls" or "play like a man" that many students think are harmless figures of speech but actually end up bringing the gender issue up all the time. In a more intangible way, I was not part of the "boys club", so my peer group was weaker and I did not benefit as much from these aspects of music school such as jam sessions, or practice sessions, initiated by other students. The male students often offer each other encouragement, tips, or compare different techniques or equipment, but don't offer this type of conversation with the females. Also, I think sometimes it is intimidating for a male to be "shown up" by a female, so these issues are actually worsened if the female player is on a high level. Sometimes i was ignored more by my peers who weren't quite as good of players. I am guessing this ties into the fact that men are supposed to dominate in our culture. On another note, most college-age males that I experienced were more concerned with trying to "hit on" me or sleep with me than play music with me or talk about music. I had the problem of not being taken seriously as a peer musician because the males were too distracted by trying to be cool or trying to get me to like them. Sep 14, 2010 9:39 PM 8 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 16 I find I get more attention from some professors and students if I look nice. A lot of times I feel I have to prove myself more to my teachers to get the same respect. I'm never asked if I'm an instrumentalist, only a vocalist, and now that I've started singing everyone assumes I'm giving up saxophone, which I think is only because I'm a girl. I've noticed that the woman professor at my school gets hit on a lot, and a lot of her students don't take her seriously or respect her as much, especially if she looks nice. In jazz band another older female instrumentalist came in to talk to the band and afterward everyone was giving her shit for looking nice and not taking her seriously as a musician. I hear a lot of comments from the guys around me that the female instrumentalists I respect only have their positions because they are attractive women. Overall, there are a lot of comments or jokes made by the guys around me that they don't think twice about, but I find surprising. I feel like I always have to kick ass in order to be taken seriously or given respect. Sep 15, 2010 12:00 AM 17 Not in my university. But some years before that, when I was still in high school my arrangement teacher once said to me: "Dont take this too hard, but... you ARE a girl... Girls always have to be much better than guys before they are taken seriously..." I had just given up classical studies and switched to jazz studies - I had a lot of energy and an enormous self confidence which had everything to do with the fact that I was SO interested in the music that the interest kept me wanting to constantly learn more. Therefore I just thougt to myself: Ok, thats what YOU think, I know what Im doing, some day youll see.... After that Ive had many doubts and lack of motivation, but Im very proud of myself that I spontaniously thought as I thought after my teachers (a male teacher) comment. Sep 15, 2010 12:18 AM 18 Mainly just being treated as an "afterthought" as opposed to being the first one to be thought of for gigs, jam sessions, etc. because I might not fit into the group's vibe (because of being female). Sep 15, 2010 2:11 AM 19 Many times I get "Trombones, play with more Balls!...Sorry to Mindy" You're the only girl I've seen play the trombone Sep 15, 2010 3:30 AM 20 Moreso with older students- when I met students younger than me they were nit usually as quick to dismiss me/ my assumed ability Sep 15, 2010 4:10 AM 21 Yes, whilst studying at City College, NYC, one of the other students (Willie-James Terrill lll) & I had been in a relationship. After we had broken up he made a pass at me during class, one time. It was an Improv class & after I had finished playing I had to walk pass him to get back to my seat. He grabbed my Butt with the most full-on grab that you could possibly imagine - I mean there was no mistaking this, he used every inch of his hand to grab as much of my butt as possible. He said "Mmmmm" as he did it. I turned around & angrily said something to him about it in front of some other students who were sitting nearby. A couple of other times in an ensemble class that we had together, he also gave me overly blatant "looking me up & down" type looks - it got to the stage where I had to make a concerted effort to avoid eye contact with him, because I knew what was in store for me if he could see that I was having (or close to having) eye contact with him. It takes a lot of energy to avoid someone's eye contact, & a lot of energy to "block them out". Other incidences happened with this guy, the first one being before I even started at the school (it was on a gig - "in the workplace"), so that occasion doesn't apply to this survey. A few years after I finished at City College I bumped into a girl who'd been in the same classes - she said that he also hit on her at school Sep 15, 2010 1:44 PM 9 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 22 At the school I went to (City College Of New York Jazz Department), even though I was the only female instrumentalist in the entire class, I did not experience any discrimination because of my gender. My peers treated me with respect. I don't know if you will be asking questions about jazz scene outside of academic education, but my experience of being a victim of gender discrimination happened once I graduated college and started hopping into local jazz jam sessions. I would sit at piano to join the session, and this older saxphone player would go like "So, what do YOU wanna play, young lady?" in a little sarcastic way. Also I have heard my peer jazz musician say "only men can play jazz" "jazz is the man's world" It is hard to determine what kind of situations to be considered as discrimination, but I definitely think that many male jazz musicians have tendency of devaluing and being more judgemental about female jazz instrumentalist like myself. I am an Asian female, so it could be racial too, or mix of race and gender, but the focus here is gender issue. I find it interesting that in jazz history of united states, there have been a racial conflict between african-american jazz musicians and caucasian jazz musicians, but now jazz scene is so gentrified that black-white conflicts rarely happens anymore, but it is still quite difficult for female jazz instrumentalist to become a part of jazz scene. Sep 15, 2010 4:04 PM 23 In one ensemble in particular, I often received inappropriate remarks regarding my clothing and general appearance. There was always some sort of insinuation that I was doing something sexual if I happened to be late or had to leave early. I never felt like I was being taken very seriously. Sep 15, 2010 4:22 PM 24 One time a fellow classmate asked me to babysit while he was playing in an ensemble concert. He didn't ask any of the men in the program, just me. As if because I'm female, I had some sort of "motherly" instinct. This was about three years ago. However, if you want to go back further (which may be irrelevant) my peers in the early 1990s in the undergraduate jazz program I attended were so nasty with me I transferred to another college to finish my degree. They were condescending, said inappropriate gender-related things constantly, and were chauvinistic in every way. Sep 15, 2010 5:18 PM 25 I have heard men make sexually explicit references, loud enough for the whole room to hear, when I am the only woman in the room. I suppose that they don't mean anything by it, but it's uncomfortable for me being the only female in a room full of guys being "guys". Sep 15, 2010 10:44 PM 26 Other than passing remarks of a sexual nature ("Whoa, a chick playing saxophone! That looks goooood"), the discrimination I felt was being excluded from jam sessions and musical hang sessions. The feeling was that guys wanted to hang out with each other, and having a girl around killed the vibe for them. It's the informal events that lead to formal work where I felt most left out. Sep 16, 2010 2:54 AM 27 Most of this is not overt, however I have to prove myself every I enter a new class, combo, big band, etc... Sep 16, 2010 4:24 AM 28 Giving preference to a mail instrumentist Sep 16, 2010 2:43 PM 10 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 29 Guys would make sexual jokes all the time, yet they wouldn't do it in part to make me feel lesser. They just felt like I was one of the guys and they could say any thing around me. Honestly at the time I wasn't offended but as I neared the end of my 4 years, I started to feel like , " man this is bullshit". The main thing that I got me was when I co-founded an all female r&b jazz group and they guys were like, " you should call it the tittie committe or the vag tag." Stupid things like that, and it was rediculous because us girls weren't calling these all guy groups, " the dicks" or we weren't calling them gay for playing with only guys. Sep 16, 2010 4:20 PM 30 Not really, although socially it has been more difficult to hang out with other jazz majors. The male jazz majors tend to form tight-knit cliques, and I often feel excluded from jazz social life because of my gender. However, I do not feel like my playing is judged by my gender. Sep 16, 2010 7:03 PM 31 I have had fellow jazz majors who made me feel uncomfortable by making gestures that implied something sexual being done to my body part(s). Other situations include making sexist/degrading jokes around me. Sep 16, 2010 8:45 PM 32 In many of my interactions with my peers, I felt like there was quite often an expectation that I was less capable than my male counterparts. Particularly in jazz, I feel like there is an exclusive "boys club" mentality that is hard to escape however unconscious it may be, and I felt like this played into our musical interactions. (To be fair, this was not true across the board, and there were a fair number of jazz majors who I feel respected me and judged me impartially on my musical abilities.) Sep 16, 2010 11:17 PM 33 I checked yes but it was only an issue for me at first, and it was just in terms of getting invited to do little gigs around campus. Once they realized that they prefered my playing to the other guy's, the gig distribution became more equitable. It wasn't really a big deal after that. Sep 20, 2010 12:24 PM 34 There was just one or two instances where it seemed clear that my peers were more interested in me sexually than in playing music with me. Sep 21, 2010 6:09 PM 1. Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration? If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution 1 No, I didn't want to alienate myself. These are both students that were better players/more favored than me. Sep 12, 2010 4:01 PM 2 I reported the incidents atfirst with him and then to the dean and after that the ombusmen of the school was involved but nothing was ever truly done about him. I just hope that my not backing down and standing up for who I am made it bettr for another female to come. Sep 12, 2010 4:11 PM 3 During my freshman year at the other university I attended, I told my private instructor about how my band leader did not give me any chance to work on my soloing skills. He was very kind enough to help me in that situation and placed me in a combo where I worked on my soloing skills there. Sep 13, 2010 12:39 AM 4 No, I did not tell any Faculty members. I went directly to the guy who was giving me the sexual harassment & addressed it immediately - the instant it had happened, I spoke to him about it. I didn't waste any time! Sep 15, 2010 1:46 PM 5 I said no to the babysitting. It wasn't really a big deal, just annoying. As for undergrad, I said nothing. There wasn't really anyone to say anything to. Sep 15, 2010 5:19 PM 11 of 26 1. Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration? If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution 6 I did let the head of the program know about the " tittie committe" comment so on the combo night when the whole jazz department was in one room he gave a little lecture how that is not ok at all. .... guys still told dirty jokes, as well as the head of the department Sep 16, 2010 4:21 PM 7 I did not want the instance to be known to the students involved in the case, but the male faculty I spoke to about the instance told other faculty and it made the case even worse than what it was in the beginning. I wish I had spoken directly to the students who made me feel uncomfortable, but I did not have the courage to do so. I did not want to come across as being prude or unfriendly as a fellow musician. Sep 16, 2010 8:48 PM 1. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved Please explain 1 To be honest, I became increasingly turned off to the jazz world as a whole. The idea of being in a big band pretty much turned my stomach, both socially and artistically. I can't say it was all the vibe, a lot of it was my growing and changing as a player, but I just felt more accepted playing with rock bands than I did in jazz ones... Sep 12, 2010 11:19 AM 2 I never agreed to sub for that ensemble again. Or any groups that had that douchebag on the keyboard. Sep 12, 2010 4:02 PM 3 It made me want to do the opposite and creat ascene where kick ass female m usicians are dominating. Sep 12, 2010 4:13 PM 4 I'm still not sure who this faculty member is (new student at this school, don't know all the faculty members), but I have avoided talking to him on one occasion and really really hope I don't end up in an ensemble directed by him. Sep 12, 2010 8:35 PM 5 I avoided small groups (combos) for a bit in my undergrad because I felt uncomfortable. Sep 12, 2010 9:20 PM 6 Because I was told numerous times that I wasn't allowed to solo because I "wasn't ready," I developed a fear of soloing, thinking that it might be true. I developed anxiety when soloing and I had less confidence. It wasn't until that I changed schools and got into a better playing environment that I realized that I could solo just as good as everyone else. Sep 13, 2010 12:41 AM 7 It made me not want to be around them- but I love what I do, work very hard, and my professors and people that are much older than me I hang out with and appreciate me as a player and a person. It makes me go to jazz hangs a whole lot less often (like never, except if I specifically go with a good friend because I don't have a car to go anywhere) Sep 13, 2010 2:18 AM 8 If anything it only motivates me to keep joining the "gentleman's clubs" of the music scene at the university. It isn't an everyday occurrence of female members of the college of music to join these school-related activities so why shouldn't a female perspective be involved? Yes, in a way she suffers, but this will only build character and have her gain the experience she wouldn't have had if she didn't join in the fun. Sep 13, 2010 2:21 PM 9 At the time it didn't, but I know this experience has affected me in other ways- i.e. self confidence. Sep 13, 2010 3:29 PM 10 it was an isolated incident Sep 13, 2010 5:22 PM 11 i wanted to experience as much as i could. if i didn't get in a certain group, i made my own. Sep 13, 2010 6:05 PM 12 Although it was an experience that was unpleasant, I feel like I am strong enough to continue what I love to do and not be distracted by men who are inept to common social behaviors. Sep 13, 2010 6:28 PM 12 of 26 1. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved Please explain 13 In terms of ensembles, I tended to put together ensembles that included people I was friendly with. Classes were much different than ensembles, and most of the student-related issues were taking place during non-class time. Sep 14, 2010 9:40 PM 14 It intimidates me a lot, and discourages me from going to jam sessions but that may just be my personal insecurities as a player. In the end it makes me want to prove myself even more. Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM 15 There hasn't been anything major- I just understand that jazz is a man's world and that I may have to fight to prove myself a little more (which can get annoying) but it doesnt hold me back. Sep 15, 2010 2:12 AM 16 I play traditionally male instruments, so I have been around boyish behavior for a long time. Also, I realize that often times it's a man's insecurity and lack of character that would motivate him to say something offensive/inappropriate in the presence of anyone, much less a woman. Sep 15, 2010 10:46 PM 17 Loss of gigs Sep 16, 2010 2:44 PM 18 Yes I didn't feel like I should play in to the bullshit so I guess I missed out on some oppurtunities. Sep 16, 2010 4:21 PM 19 I can't really think of any events or activities that limited me to want to participate because of the experiences I've had. If anything, it made me not want to speak to anyone (male, especially) about any minor cases. Sep 16, 2010 8:50 PM 20 I often felt like many of my peers felt like the ability to play jazz was a means of asserting one's masculinity and this general attitude and expectation often made everything from rehearsals and jam sessions to concerts slightly uncomfortable. Sep 16, 2010 11:20 PM 21 It was just sort of a wake up call, and I began to figure out how to relate clearly with my peers. Sep 21, 2010 6:10 PM 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 1 Though this is not an overt instance, I do sometimes get the sense that certain male faculty members are not as willing to start a close mentor-student relationship with me because I am a female and because it may come across the wrong way, and because sexual harassment is such a real threat and how can they know whether I might misinterpret certain behavior, etc. For example I know that many male colleagues get to a certain relationship level with their teacher where they are in frequent phone contact regarding school but also regarding extra-curricular topics, such as general life or career advice - a sort of an extra dose of attention/mentoring for "favored" students. I feel that part of the reason I don't have a close mentor relationship with any of my teachers here is because they are all male, and that by being a female, it imposes certain social difficulties on this. I'm not sure if this could be considered sexual discrimination, but it's a topic I often reflect on, and makes me consider this: if there were a prominent female teacher in my instrumental field, would it be easier to have a close student/teacher bond because there would not be any "traditional" sexual misinterpretations possible? In the field of music, it is often the relationships and the "connections" we form that move us forward - are females then hindered because they have less of a chance of forming mentor-type relationships with their professors? (Understanding that not all students actually do receive this special sort of extra attention) Sep 12, 2010 3:42 AM 13 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 2 At the second jazz program I attended, one particular teacher made it his personal agenda basically give me a hard time all year. THis guy is notorious for psychologically screwing with his students, but for me it came in the form of insinuating that I was dating various members of the class I was not dating, most of whom were my friends...like, I can't be FRIENDS with these guys, right? I have to be SLEEPING with them....it was BS. I was the ONLY GIRL in that graduating class...it made me feel weird. THEN he'd like, try to svengali me into the kind of player he wanted me to be, telling me, seriously, how my career should play out. I was just like, whatever man. He was trying to intimidate me, but thats what those old jazz guys do.... Sep 12, 2010 11:25 AM 3 Most faculty members were more friendly than fellow students, and I feel like their mistakes are more just inappropriate mistakes than mean-spirited harassment, but here are the few I remember: -A faculty member told me to wear "something shiny, with bra straps showing" to a gig with a school combo. -I introduced myself to a faculty member and he said "Nice kitties". I was wearing a t-shirt with drawing of cats on the front, he said this while looking at my tits. -A faculty member asked me to wear a tux to a gig (I feel like this is discriminatory cause you wouldn't ask a guy to cross-dress and wear a gown to a function). -A tenured faculty member, no doubt fresh from reading some ridiculous evo-psy, said during a big band rehearsal where I was one of two girls, that women didn't have the "bravado" necessary to take impassioned solos or be lead trumpet players. Then she asked our opinion. -A faculty member asked me to close the door to his office so we could talk, then cracked open a bottle of wine and offered me some. The talking went fine, but it felt really weird. I avoided being alone in an office with that faculty member again. Sep 12, 2010 4:15 PM 4 Yes, so far any of the discrimination I've experienced has only been from faculty members, because they tend to be on the older side; I think it's a generational thing. Sep 12, 2010 8:36 PM 5 See prior answer Sep 12, 2010 9:20 PM 6 My freshman year of college was difficult because my band leader would not let me solo. He would let others take the lead, but when I asked him to give me a chance, he would give me music that he knew was impossible for a college freshman to play. When I couldn't make sense of the elaborate chord changes, he used that as an excuse to not have me solo AT ALL. His reasoning was that if I couldn't make sense of difficult chord changes, then I couldn't solo on something more my level at that time (I was a freshman), like a blues or a standard. He did not want to teach me anything. I felt as if he was creating unnecessary road blocks into becoming a better jazz musician. Sep 13, 2010 12:48 AM 7 I'm a pianist, and a teacher once advised me to take up singing because people like to see a nice looking girl sing and play piano. He only meant to help my career, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't advising his male students to do the same. Sep 13, 2010 1:01 AM 8 I was unfairly graded in evaluations of my performance, as compared to male counterparts. Sep 13, 2010 5:19 AM 9 With my majors professor, it was instances of him including inappropriate references to female body parts or sexual activities; such as "blowing your vagina off" or "she must have given him a really good blow job" (in the topic of conversation of why a soloist was chosen). Another instance was when professors would offer to have lessons at their places of residence. Sep 13, 2010 2:23 PM 10 i had a teacher tell me in my undergraduate studies that he didn't know how to teach me because i had "feminine energy." Sep 13, 2010 5:22 PM 14 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 11 Again, I was the top player and the teachers actually asked me to play with them sometimes. Example: Once they were doing auditions for a new jazz ensemble director. They asked me to play with him since that was part of the audition. Sep 13, 2010 5:41 PM 12 i guess this would also be related to my answer to #3. Sep 13, 2010 6:05 PM 13 Multiple verbal advances from a faculty member Sep 13, 2010 6:51 PM 14 Inappropriate physical contact from an instructor. He would put his hands on my shoulders when it was not necessary. Sep 13, 2010 7:53 PM 15 Advances and special treatment from private instructors on numerous occasions-- at least 3 different teachers. Scolding in front of class (not usual behavior with other male students), being told to "smile more. Sep 13, 2010 11:15 PM 16 not a specific situation, but i get an overall feeling that it is thought that maybe women are less interesting musically, speacilly when teachers assign solos for presentations, for instance. Sep 14, 2010 10:07 AM 17 It seemed that the older generation of males, meaning the teachers, were more discriminatory than the younger peers, but in a different way. One time I heard a faculty member whistle as I walked down the hall from my practice room. One faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting a massage with oils during an ensemble. Many faculty members compare music to women, or dating, or another related topic when teaching. One faculty member would look at my friend's rear end when she went to the blackboard, in front of the whole class. This same person would look at student's breasts when talking to them. On the other hand, an older faculty member would be more proper around females, but say very crude things when they weren't around, to the male students, which I would hear about later on. These included sexual comparisons with the music and metaphors for the feeling of a woman and the feeling of jazz. This also shows how the faculty member was not only saying discriminatory things to males about females, but discriminating against the females by not really giving them his all. In addition to not mentioning these rude comments, he wasn't giving out his knowledge to the fullest level. I have heard many times during a master class a musician talking about women and "in their day" the women..... this completely negates their wisdom and makes me defensive and annoyed. Sep 14, 2010 9:47 PM 18 Most of them don't. A lot of them seem more hesitant and super careful not to come across the wrong way, sometimes I feel like they aren't sure how to interact with a young woman. Only once or twice have I noticed that I'll get more attention if I look nice. There is one professor who I feel I don't get as much respect from because I'm a woman. It seems like he's really into his other students' playing (who I feel I'm at the same level as) but is never excited about what I'm doing. But I'm sure he would disagree. I played for a show at a fundraiser for his organization and he was on his phone the whole time outside. But when I played the same fundraiser with a male front man, he was inside listening intently. Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM 19 Again, nothing major- just the sense that special remarks or explanations or treatment was slightly different because I was a girl, possibly because I was one of so few girls and it might have been uncomfortable for the faculty member. But mostly this hasnt been an issue. Sep 15, 2010 2:13 AM 20 An offhand joke that was made, saying my composition was not so organized because I'm female. Sep 15, 2010 2:56 AM 15 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 21 I was almost always assumed to be a weak player by the older men teaching on the faculty, that usually changed after I was heard. Sep 15, 2010 4:11 AM 22 My trombone teacher told me I should be a model, and a singer... Sep 15, 2010 4:58 AM 23 I had a private lesson teacher who used to hit on me all the time. The first few lessons went by without a hitch, then he started in. First how pretty I was, and just small things here and there. By the end of the semester he was actually telling me he wanted to have sex with me in every lesson. I continued to study with him cause I was learning, and had a lot of male friends who really respected his teaching. I didn't want to give up. I felt like I should just shrug it off & try and focus on the music. Also, he was an intimidating guy - the kind of guy who would take other students lack of practicing or performance errors as a personal offense. He made people feel like he was going to get angry if you played bad, and also, if you chose to switch teachers. Eventually, two years after I'd stopped studying with him, I reported the situation, and learned that I wasn't the first to file a complaint, and that the jazz director head had been wanting to get him fired for some time because he felt he was intimidating all his students into continuing to study with him when it wasn't always the best thing for them. Sep 15, 2010 1:30 PM 24 Was hired as secretarial assistant to a jazz professor based on looks and gender alone. He took me out to an expensive dinner as a "job interview," buying me lots of alcohol even though I am underage. In my improvisation final, my teacher told me not to be afraid to "dress more femininely." Sep 15, 2010 3:28 PM 25 I definitely felt that I was being held to a lower standard at my first university. There was nothing overt, but being the only female brass player in the program was difficult for me. I could not find a teacher that took me seriously and demanded what he might from a male student. Sep 15, 2010 4:25 PM 26 On the first day of class my jazz composition teacher pointed at me (the only female in the room), asked me my major (jazz voice performance), and stated unequivocally that I was going to have difficulty in this class because "vocalists don't know how to write." He did not bother to consider that not only was I a multi- instrumentalist in addition to my singing, but that I had been writing, composing and arranging jazz for far longer than he had been a teacher of jazz. Furthermore, I already had been a university/conservatory professor of jazz and voice for longer than he had been and the lack of respect based on my gender and major was unwarranted, unappreciated and discriminatory. There was another jazz vocal major in the room on that day, but because he was male he was asked if he played other instruments (he did) and so the discrimination was not extended toward him. My having played piano since age 5, drumset in school and french horn for 9 years culminating in an invitation to perform in Carnegie Hall was information that I did not feel should be necessary to share in order to gain my teacher's respect, so I did not share it. At the end of the semester, even though I earned an A in his class, the grade he reported was B+. Sep 15, 2010 4:38 PM 27 After a class my sophomore year of college (1992-3) I was told by a teacher to do my homework or I would get a spanking. I walked away thinking that was a silly thing to say; years later, I realized what he meant and was disgusted. Sep 15, 2010 5:20 PM 28 One faculty member told me I had sexy legs, among many other sexual comments. This instructor also made comments about me to my peers. Several private instructors have talked to me like I'm a ten year old... "this is how to play jazz, little girl" One of these instructors is notorious among other females in my department for making degrading comments. Sep 16, 2010 4:39 AM 29 giving preference to mail instrumentists Sep 16, 2010 2:44 PM 30 Just by accident, the head is a goof ball and would say some inapropraite things. Sep 16, 2010 4:22 PM 31 Many jazz professors make sexist jokes and remarks, such as talking about putting me on stage in fishnets and stilettos. I was also asked for a kiss once in exchange for the use of rehearsal space. Sep 16, 2010 7:04 PM 16 of 26 1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 32 I have had a comment made to me by a faculty regarding some new clothing article I was wearing. It was not a sexual comment, but it made me feel embarrassed to be dressing a certain way because I am a female. I have also had a faculty who tried to massage my shoulders which stopped immediately. Apparently, this faculty did not realize the fact that doing such thing to a female student might be a problem. Sep 16, 2010 8:57 PM 33 For the most part, I feel like I was blessed with having fantastic faculty members who treated me with respect and gave me the support I wanted. There were however, instances were I felt that some faculty members simply expected less of me and therefore didn't try to engage with me as much as my peers who were male. Sep 16, 2010 11:22 PM 34 When loading and unloading equipment or setting up a stage, the director always asked the boys to carry the risers Sep 18, 2010 4:04 AM 35 Sometimes, actually many times, I thought it was because the director didn't want to appear to be giving preferential treatment to a female. Also, gender-based is a more accurate word in this case than sexual. As an undergraduate student almost twenty years ago, a certain faculty member gave a younger male classmate of mine all kinds of outside opportunities that I would have loved to had a chance to experience and learn from and get paid for. Since I was more advanced as a player, I wondered about this so I finally asked the faculty member about it and he said that the other student needed this experience in preparation for his career. He managed to say in a very subtle way that it was because he was a guy and that's just the things were out there in real life. I'm not a person who looks for opportunies to label things as gender-based discrimination, but in this case it distinctly felt like the career of any less talented male was more important in the over all scheme of things than that of any female, at least to this particular faculty member. Sep 20, 2010 12:47 PM 36 A couple of the male faculty members never learned my name. They would call me, "baby," and comment on my appearance instead of supporting me musically. Sep 21, 2010 6:11 PM 1. Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or the If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution 1 I complained to other teachers I liked, who basically said, that particular professor was a dick, and to ignore him. I actually just flat out threatened him, in front of the class, to take it to the dean, when he made any inappropriate comments about my personal life. He backed off a bit after that.... Sep 12, 2010 11:27 AM 2 None of this warranted reporting in my opinion, as nothing was very serious. Sep 12, 2010 4:16 PM 3 Yes and my private instructor was kind enough to put me into a combo where I worked on my soloing skills there instead. Sep 13, 2010 12:49 AM 4 he was fired Sep 13, 2010 5:22 PM 5 To the head of the program; also the dean and student services Sep 13, 2010 11:16 PM 17 of 26 1. Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or the If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution 6 I reported when one faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting a massage with oils during an ensemble. I ended up going straight to the Chair of the Music Department (she was female). She understood, but ended up telling the Program Coordinator (who was male), who made me tell him about it (I didn't feel comfortable talking to him about it in the first place which is why I went to the Chair), and then he talked to the faculty member about it directly (which is also what I specifically asked him not to do, because then he knew I complained about him to administration). The accused faculty member ran for Department Head and didn't get it. Essentially he was not reprimanded, and I was embarrassed further. Many male students in the department heard about this and were annoyed that I might have messed with his election for department head. Sep 14, 2010 9:51 PM 7 The teacher was fired. However - not without a debacle, about how they were going to have use my name in a meeting with him to explain who had filed a complaint. I expressed extreme concern over this - cause this guys seemed like he might fly off the handle to me, and, as a fellow musician, I figured I'd run into him again. I didn't want that to happen outside of school, when he was angry. Faculty told me it was policy, that he had a right to know or something like that. Eventually I learned that the jazz director had pulled some strings and my name had not been used. Sep 15, 2010 1:33 PM 8 I reported it in my course evaluation at the end of the semester, but I did not pursue it further because I could not risk this person ruining my chances in other classes. I sincerely wanted and needed to succeed in my studies and I felt that reporting it might be detrimental to my future relations with other teachers and perhaps my peers. Sep 15, 2010 4:41 PM 9 I knew that reporting these incidences would ostracize me even more from the department. The whole department is a mens club and reporting one of them would make the rest of them hate me. Sep 16, 2010 4:40 AM 10 It turned out that the faculty who tried to massage my shoulders was known to all female students in the program as being inappropriate. Almost all of the female students had reported to the head of the program, but we were very disappointed to find out that nothing was done to keep him from becoming a tenure at the school. He just ended up being thought of as the "creepy guy" to all (female and male) students. Sep 16, 2010 8:59 PM 1. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, Please explain 1 once I was in a program that had optional big bands (it was small ensemble based, unlik the first school I went to) I was like, HELL NO I do not need to be in no pissing contest with a bunch of guys.... Sep 12, 2010 11:28 AM 2 I didn't take sax lessons from the "nice kitties" dude until my last year, when I was sure that he was a nice guy, and not a creep. Sep 12, 2010 4:19 PM 3 I switched private teachers after several inappropriate comments by a professor. Sep 12, 2010 9:21 PM 4 Nothing will or has ever stopped me from becoming the musician that I am. People may have tried to slow me down, but all efforts are futile as their discrimination forces me to become more resourceful and a stronger person. When I play, there is no gender. Sep 13, 2010 12:52 AM 5 With certain classes, private teachers, and advisors, yes, because I had heard stories about particular teachers who gave unfair treatment to women players as opposed to men. Sep 13, 2010 5:51 AM 6 Since I have refused to have these lessons at their places of residence, they have thus refused to teach me. Thus limiting my choice of classes, et al. Sep 13, 2010 2:24 PM 18 of 26 1. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, Please explain 7 in choosing my graduate studies i was much more cautious about who i studied with, as well as the school environment. Sep 13, 2010 5:23 PM 8 Absolutely. Sep 13, 2010 11:17 PM 9 As i said eralier, it's more of a feeling than a proved daily situation. In my case, it makes me stronger to aply for every class i want, and when i get good grades i feel it as a small victory. Sep 14, 2010 10:10 AM 10 I wouldn't want to be stuck in a room alone with a creepy guy. So, certain teachers who may have great musical knowledge that the male students benefit greatly from, I don't get the pleasure of learning from, but at least I remain comfortable. Sep 14, 2010 9:52 PM 11 I still took the same professor's classes during the terms after that incident because I didn't take his remark very seriously. I think it was really just a joke. Sep 15, 2010 2:57 AM 12 It made things a bit more difficult but I worked harder to prove myself. Sep 15, 2010 4:12 AM 13 I didn't have a choice Sep 15, 2010 4:59 AM 14 I chose not to study with the teacher who had been discriminating, but ultimately, it didn't feel like a loss, and I didn't feel inhibited in any other way. Sep 15, 2010 1:34 PM 15 I refused to take the secretary job because I felt uncomfortable about the situation it put me in. Sep 15, 2010 3:38 PM 16 I was advised not to take certain classes because some of the faculty members were rumored to say inappropriate things about their female students. Other faculty members openly preferred not have female students. I eventually transferred universities. Sep 15, 2010 4:26 PM 17 I was determined not to take another class from this teacher, so I appealed to my advisor to "pass out" of the next requirement taught by him, based on the arrangements and pieces I had already written in years past. Fortunately, my appeal was accepted and I did not have to take any more classes from him, but I felt cheated because the class I would have taken was big band composition and that was one of the key reasons I wanted this education in the first place. So because I did not want him as a mentor, I was prevented from exploring that facet of my education. Sep 15, 2010 4:45 PM 18 I transferred to another college half-way through my undergraduate studies. Sep 15, 2010 5:21 PM 19 Certainly. My undergraduate degree became very uncomfortable. I've avoided certain instructors who are known to be sexist. This became awkward when I had to try to explain to other faculty why I wasn't taking with these instructors. Sep 16, 2010 4:40 AM 20 He was the head of the jazz department, he didn't mean it , it just came out that way. Sep 16, 2010 4:22 PM 21 There is one jazz professor in general who I feel really uncomfortable around (the one who has made the most sexist remarks and asked for the kiss). I have no control over whether he is my combo teacher or not, but I try to avoid him because he makes me very uncomfortable and nervous. Sep 16, 2010 7:05 PM 22 I have not felt limited to take any courses or ensembles because of the incident, but I have always felt that being alone with the faculty was not a smart idea. If I had the option to take a private lesson with him, I would have definitely said no. Sep 16, 2010 9:01 PM 23 I feel like my choice of musicians to play with in combos may have been limited because of this. Sep 16, 2010 11:23 PM 24 It definitely limited some choices I made early on. It was much less of an issue during my recent stint in grad school. Sep 20, 2010 12:50 PM 25 Yes, I certainly tried to avoid certain combo coaches and I also felt like I was not supported as well in certain classes and maybe even given a lower grade for no apparent reason. Sep 21, 2010 6:12 PM 19 of 26 1. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 1 Got a gig with another female musician and was hired without them hearing how we played. Was told basically that we had the right "look". Seemed like it was most important for them to have two young female musicians playing at their restaurant and that it didn't really matter how we sounded. Sep 12, 2010 6:01 AM 2 There was one time at the Smoke jam session I was on the list to sit in and play, and I felt like it had been over and hour and other guys had gone up more than once to play, so I eventually went up to the guy leading the session and confronted him, and he mumbled something and I got to play-- I'm not for sure that this was sex discrimination, it could have just been that I was new to the session, but it sort of seemed that way. I don't have any super clear examples, but sometimes it does seem like I'm not taken seriously at the beginning of a gig, like people sort of look at me like "who's she" but then after they hear me play, their entire attitude changes and they want to know more about me and they want my card, etc etc.... there haven't been many people like this, though, only a few. I guess I have been really lucky- (or really oblivious, lol!) to have been so warmly and opened received into whatever community I was entering, was it a school setting or a new city. Sep 12, 2010 3:58 PM 3 If anything, I feel like being female gives me a more favorable response from the audience. Sep 12, 2010 4:20 PM 4 Sexual harassment, groping, unnecessary contact, insulting phrases, etc. Sep 12, 2010 5:37 PM 5 Sometimes I am expected to flirt with bar goers or pretend to be amused when other musicians make sexual jokes or references. Occasionally the jokes are funny, and I am amused, but wonder why people think it is appropriate to say them at all. In Virginia, many women jazz musicians like the attention of being the old female and will refuse to share a stage with another women; this perplexes me and is a regular problem. Sep 12, 2010 9:24 PM 6 Working on a cruise ship, I encountered sexual harassment from a bandleader and sound engineer. This included sexual comments on a daily basis and unwanted attention. I felt that as the only female in the group, I had to put up with the attention and be a good sport about it. Sep 12, 2010 11:27 PM 7 When people see me carry my baritone saxophone case into a performance or jam session, they notice that the case is almost as big as I am. Upon seeing this, instead of refusing to let me play, most people are curious to see if I could make noise on the instrument in the first place. That's the impression I get. Once I start playing, however, I've noticed that most people stare in amazement, simply because they've never seen such a small woman play such a large instrument with such force before. I must admit, it is not common for women to play the baritone sax. Sep 13, 2010 1:01 AM 8 At gigs, musicians and audience members alike assume I don't know as many tunes as my male counterparts. Sep 13, 2010 5:52 AM 9 More often than not, my male counterparts are chosen over me to get the gig; this I find might be because a female playing on the gig will get more attention thus taking attention away from what the gig is actually about. Suggestions to dress provocatively for gigs have been more rampant than anything else. Sep 13, 2010 2:27 PM 10 Surprisingly enough... there's a woman in town that "has it out for me". I did a musical gig with her and after the gig she told me that the only way I'd get ahead was to sleep with everyone. I won't do that of course... she told me off for about 45 minutes. This person is successful as a studio player and my forte is more as a soloist. I have heard from others that she is jealous of me. I respect what she does and respect her abilities and success. She's a good 20 to 30 years older than me and it would have been nice to have her take me under her wing with encouragement, rather than intimidate and attack me. Sep 13, 2010 3:34 PM 20 of 26 1. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 11 people are much more likely to comment on how i look playing, rather than how i sound. comments include "you lot hot when you play" or " you should smile more when you play". either of these comments would rarely be said to male musicians. Sep 13, 2010 5:24 PM 12 I'm a skinny, 5'6, 22 year old white girl. When I meet people they immediately think I can't play anything and kind of laugh in my face. But once I start playing they're taken back and know they're wrong because I can play well. As far as gigs are concerned, I'm reliable and on time, so they say that I'm different from men because most of the guy drummers they know are late and not prepared. They say it's just because I'm a female. Sep 13, 2010 5:43 PM 13 i hate hearing, "you play great for a girl!" or "i wasn't expecting that out of you!!" i also feel like i have to be very aware of my attire, otherwise i get more comments on that. Sep 13, 2010 6:08 PM 14 Mild comments on the fact that I'm a woman and can play my instrument. Nothing too harmful, just very slight remarks about how that's not very common, or that onlookers thought I might be a vocalist instead of an instrumentalist. Sep 13, 2010 6:52 PM 15 Not from other musicians but from bartenders and bar managers! Sometimes audience members. Sep 13, 2010 6:53 PM 16 On several occasions people have discounted my ability (assumed i couldnt play)- - until they actually heard me. Once I established that I indeed could play, I had no problems. Sep 13, 2010 8:14 PM 17 Occasionally, but mostly before I have played. Once people hear that I can play well and I have "proven" myself, I have a better experience. Also, it is hard to be taken as seriously-I have witnessed time and time again that even the greatest women are not thought of first for a position or gig. Sep 13, 2010 11:19 PM 18 The major example is this duo that I have with this other girl. I play the piano and she sings and our repertoire is mainly Bossa Nova and Jazz Standards. Among other situations, there was this horrible bar with a table full of men and they kept yelling rude commentaries about us during our show. We ended the gig earlier than usual and the owner of the bar came to the stage saying that he had paid us to play two straight hours. When we said that we couldn't take that anymore, he said that there was nothing he could do about it 'cause they where spending a lot of money in drinks. We had never played there before and we never came back. Another thing happened to us recently. Me and my friend play together very often in a restaurant far from our home city. From the first time that we went there, they put us sleeping in the samen room without even ask. Since we are friends, we didn't care but the assumption upseted us. The other thing is that the owner is very kind but he always waits for us to have dinner and most of the times he brings a friend so it sounds a bit like a date. But he's very kind so we tried not to think bad things. But last we a friend of ours went there for the weekend to play and we found out that none of the musicians were charing rooms and that the owner didn't wait for them to eat. Our friend also told us about the comentaires that the friend of the owner (the one he takes to have dinner with us) did about us. None of them about the music, of course. And men hitting on us after the concert happens everytime. But that happens since I started to frequent jazz clubes. Another thing happens in jam sessions. I like to dress myself up, not too much, but I like to look nice and I think people expect even less of a girl who does that. Like if we want to take jazz seriously we have to dress like men. So everytime I step in to play a tune in front of a bunch of strangers, the expectations are so low that people come to congratulate me with that look "you play so nice for a girl!". Sep 14, 2010 12:47 PM 19 There are certain bands that I notice never hire women, or if they do it is only one. At jam sessions, when people don't know me (before they hear me play), they tend to treat me like I can't play. It reminds me of trying to play a sport with the guys at recess when I was little, I had to prove myself rather than be accepted from the get-go. Then when they do hear that I can play, some are cool and others get very insecure and act very cold toward me. Sep 14, 2010 4:10 PM 21 of 26 1. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 20 When I go on stage at a session in a city where Im unknown, people are looking at me as if they cant believe that I can play and ask me "is a blues in F ok for you?". After I played they seem to be surprised. I also often had the feeling that colleagues think woman do not have so much energy in their playing. I have to prove myself often. Female instrumentalist should be a bit "male" in their behaviour, then they get more acceptance or respect, I think. Thats a pitty. Sep 14, 2010 7:12 PM 21 More of the same. I would say it is on a larger scale, so the more intangible stuff is heightened as well, such as : who knows if I would have more recognition or success if I were male? Or maybe less, but maybe the success I have is for the wrong reasons? Eventually you have to give in a little to the exploitation and use it to your advantage to overcome the disadvantages being female brings. One example: I play in an all-female big band, which further ghettoizes women in jazz, but also allows for opportunity we aren't getting elsewhere. It may be sensationalized through this medium, but it also brings us attention. It is a strange cycle, and has been an issue since jazz began. There were always great female jazz musicians, we just don't know about them. Sep 14, 2010 9:55 PM 22 I'm not sure. I know I've gotten gigs because I'm a woman. I've gotten 4 different gigs because they requested a woman instrumentalist or because I always look professional. I feel vibed at jam sessions. I wish it didn't get in the way. I wish I could look nice, go to a jam session, and not feel like I need to prove that I can play. I think everyone has to prove that they can play at a jam session, but for a nice looking woman, the automatic assumption is that they can't play as well. Even if it's music, men don't like being beaten by girls. I'm not sure that I haven't been called for a gig because I'm a woman though. Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM 23 I dont think so. Im very happy that all the musicians seem to have no interest whatsoever in anybodys gender. The audience is another story..... And sometimes some festival arrangers f.ex. the Pori Jazz arranger who now has retired has very sovinistic attitude, He sees female musicians as something that is maybe not so professional, but something that maybe sells. I basicly dont talk to him anymore.... ;) The audience often makes me feel very uncomfortable. I feel that I get some extra looks and "well... lets see what SHE has to offer". And if I play strong, loud and "ugly" I feel that everybody thinks: "Ooooo, she DOES have some guts too" and if I play beautifully, soft and sweet I feel that everybofy thinks: "Ok, this is exactly that kind of "girl-music", with pink sounds and soft touch". I dont know if Im just imagining - but some other women have said the same thing; that they keep thinking the same stuff. You can either let yourself bother or just ignore it, but you have to deal with it somehow anyway, spend energy in that issue, and thats what is tiring. Also some journalists have been really demanding wanting to know what is female jazz like. And I have constantly answered that there is NO such thing, And it is unfare also to male musicians to give all the sweet and soft playing to girls. I know many male musicians who play so unbeliavably beautiful, soft and warm and that doesnt make them feminine. Sep 15, 2010 12:19 AM 24 I don't know if it really counts as "discrimination" but it irks me the number of times it has been mentioned to me that I'm a girl- it is an unnecessary distinction; it's as if people are surprised that I am a girl jazz musician and can still be talented. Sep 15, 2010 2:14 AM 25 I definitely feel like I have to prove myself right from the get go. For example, in a rehearsal situation if we have a new musician playing then he (so far is has always been a guy) will automatically look to the other guy in the group for direction. He will only look to me when I have made a few suggestions or explained something to show I know what i'm talking about. Sep 15, 2010 3:19 AM 26 Constant hitting on, or actually being hired because I am a female and they wanted me in a dress. Sep 15, 2010 3:31 AM 27 WOW. Yeah I guess anything goes at jam sessions. I've had people be outright offensive to me as in "sit down little girl you can't handle this." Sep 15, 2010 4:14 AM 22 of 26 1. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 28 People don't accept me as a trombonist, they ask ini can play that thing it must be too bug for me, am I a singer(with trombone in hand) etc... It's hard for me to figure out if someone actualy wants to hire me or if they want to get in my pants...many times. U guve my business card out i get inappropriate non business messages afterwards... Sep 15, 2010 5:01 AM 29 - Comments from guys in the band (when dressed up for gigs) saying things like "oh, you look hot tonight... it's really doing it for me" etc - Occasionally when being booked for gigs, jokingly being requested to 'make sure you dress sexy' for the punters etc Sep 15, 2010 1:25 PM 30 Several times I've been in line at jazz shows in the city - at the jazz standard, or 55 bar, or wherever, and over heard jazz students talking behind or in front of me. Often times I will introduce myself & tell them I'm a pianist. Their follow up question is usually, "classical?" ...assumption number 1. When I introduce myself as a musician or as a jazz musician to anyone, first question "are you a singer?" and even sometimes, "how come you don't sing?" Other than that, sometimes I feel like guys can be stand-offish at jam sessions initially, like they are writing me off before they even hear me...but, generally, after playing, I feel like any initial discrimination dissipates. Thought, there's a trombone player I've played with for a while - I know he respects my writing & playing, cause he has told me & continues to come to my shows. His excitement & interest in my music seems pretty honest & he calls me from time to time for sessions. Everyone else at the session is always male, and he seems to get into this kind of macho show-off vibe. Whenever I solo in these sessions, he actually turns around & starts a conversation with one of the other horn players & proceeds to talk through my solo. He doesn't do this during other folks solos. Sep 15, 2010 1:44 PM 31 As I mentioned in an earlier question, the same guy did the same stuff on gigs. He was the kind of guy "who wouldn't take no for an answer". It started on the first night we met, on a gig. As far as other guys are concerned, I've been very lucky & haven't experienced sexual harassment from any body else. I've been lucky to have professional interactions with other guys. It was only that one guy that I had problems with - & those problems with him were BAD!!! It even made me turn down gigs - it got to the stage where, if a bandleader called me for a gig, I would ask "who's playing drums?", if the bandleader said "Will Terrill" then I wold turn down the gig. I even turned down a jam session recently, which was being run by one of the Faculty members at City College - he was inviting past & present students to these sessions, to give them a chance to network. I saw the potential to end up in the same room as this "Will Terrill", so I asked the Professor if Will was going to be there. As it turned out the Professor said "You must be psychic, I was going to ask Will to be at this week's Jam session", so I explained the situation to this Professor & told him I would have to decline the session. (The Professor hadn't yet called Will, so he very kindly called someone else to play the drums for that week). Whew! Sep 15, 2010 2:00 PM 32 I explained about this in the earlier question, sorry. I feel that it happens quite often at jam session settings. When I joined a professional jazz big band rehearsal to sub for my teacher, only person who talked to me was a man who wanted to hit on me. I feel that the only way to make it in jazz as a female jazz instrumentalist is to form her own band and be a band leader. Sep 15, 2010 4:10 PM 23 of 26 1. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 33 In jam session situations where folks don't know me and have not heard me play I have frequently been put on hold and then asked to play with the weakest, least experienced musicians in the room. People who don't know me will generally resist hiring me for gigs even with a recommendation. If they have heard me it is a different story. Sep 15, 2010 4:15 PM 34 Most of the discrimination has come from the business end of things: booking gigs, etc. If a woman is too direct, she's seen as "pushy". I do find the straight-ahead jazz scene to be quite the "boys' club". There's not much room for straight-ahead, female instrumental jazz musicians. To this day, the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra is all-male, and always has been. I also had a guitar teacher make so many inappropriate advances towards me that I had to stop studying with him halfway through my third semester in grad school. He apologized, but that wasn't enough. Sep 15, 2010 5:23 PM 35 I find that I'm always treated differently due to the fact that I'm a female drummer. It's not always in a negative manner ... sometimes all this consists of is people coming up and patting me on the head after a gig while asking me how I'm such a powerful drummer and such a small girl at the same time. However, there have also been instances where I find that an audience simply stops listening when they see that I am a female. Sep 15, 2010 6:31 PM 36 I was not called to play with a big band at the officer's club because I was a woman, even though I was well-qualified to play, and several men in the band recommended me to the leader. I was later told that the band leader told the guys that he wouldn't hire me because I was a woman. Sep 15, 2010 10:49 PM 37 This is a hard topic to prove, but I feel that male sax players at the same playing level are more likely to be called because they are 'buddies' with the other musicians. Sep 16, 2010 2:56 AM 38 Overt comments such as "just stand there and look pretty" and also more subtle instances where I know I'm not being taken seriously. At jam sessions, I've heard people whisper "is she good?" before deciding which tune I should play. Sep 16, 2010 4:41 AM 39 not treated as a musician but female Sep 16, 2010 2:28 PM 40 preference to male instrumentists Sep 16, 2010 2:45 PM 41 Not discrimination but pre judgment. For instance they will be like, " o great so what are you going to sing tonight?" and i'm like " no, I play piano" Also when I met this one great saxophone player he was talking to my chest the whole time. I met Freddie Hubbard and he told me that I looked like this woman that he once "knew" in New York and then he gave me a big hug... as flattering as that may be, it was still a bit disturbing. Sep 16, 2010 4:24 PM 42 The gender-based discrimination I have experienced has usually taken the form of verbal "compliments" from audience members and critics. I can't remember getting them from fellow musicians. In the U.S. I often hear, "I didn't expect you to have such a big sound", or "It was so surprising to hear such aggressive playing based on your looks", or "you sound like a 40-year-old, huge black guy". In Japan, I have faced more explicit comments like, "although she looks like a quiet girl, she sounds like a guy", or "you're cute so I didn't expect you to play like that". "She's a girl BUT..." comes up often. Sep 16, 2010 6:50 PM 43 I don't think I have sufficient experience in the professional jazz world to judge. Sep 16, 2010 7:06 PM 24 of 26 1. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances. 44 I have had comments made about my ethnicity and gender, my physique, appearance, or the fact that "I can play well FOR BEING A GIRL." Many males feel this is a compliment, but to the females it is not at all. Also, often times I tried to strike up a conversation at a jam session, gigs or any related events, males would assume that I am interested in them as a male and not just as a musician. Many males also often try to ask for my phone number or personal information by disguising as a business offer. Sep 16, 2010 9:06 PM 45 Surprisingly, I feel that my gender has been less of an issue since I started performing professionally. I also happen to be in an area with a lot of female jazz musicians and most of the environments I play in are very laid back and supportive. I don't know that this would necessarily be true if I moved else where. Sep 16, 2010 11:25 PM 46 In NYC, they skipped over my name at a jam session to play because they didn't want to call up a woman. Sep 18, 2010 3:23 AM 47 Mostly by the audience...I'm confronted often by men that are astonished that women "can" play jazz or am descriminated against by the instruments I choose. Most men whether in the band or audience, have some smart remark about the fact that I play many low end instruments like bass trombone, tuba and string bass. Usually they stereotype that I should be playing flute or that the instrument is too big for me. Sep 18, 2010 4:08 AM 48 I've been at it long enough to look back and realize that it is not much different than the types of discriminatory behavior that all women experience in all professions. I don't think any of it was specifically jazz-specific except for some vibing from female singers. Even now sometimes when I get called for a gig I'll ask the simple question "suit or tux?" and the guy will become either aghast or smarmy and I can literally feel him over the phone trying to figure out what in the world a female would wear to a gig or even worse, getting all specific with me about how hot or how elegant he wants me to look in my black dress. Yuck. So once I figure out whether it's suit or tux, I'll wear a suit or a tux. I used to wear dresses to gigs when I was younger and cuter, until I noticed that chick singers would often seem annoyed at my presence on the bandstand. It really wasn't worth having to deal with that and that's why I started wearing suits or a tux, depending on the gig. Problem solved. Sep 20, 2010 1:11 PM 49 I was asked to go on tour with a professional well known musician, not sure if I should list her name here, but ultimately, she ended up choosing a man to take my place because all the musicians were going to have to help drive the bus and she didn't think that women could drive well. I have played at many gigs where men comment more on my appearance than my playing, where they avoid eye contact and don't introduce themselves to me like they do my male colleagues. I have definitely been in professional situations where it becomes more and more clear that the male's main interest is sexual and musical. I think I am pretty good at setting clear boundaries and making it clear that this is not something that I am interested in. Sep 21, 2010 6:16 PM 1. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the Please explain 1 no way. I really think that we as women in jazz cannot make ourselves out to be victims, and we control our own experience. Sometimes I think women create these things in their head-- like I play in this all woman band, and often we'll be at a soundcheck for a show and the sound guy will be being kind of a jerk, and the woman who sits next to me would always say "he's such a sexist! I can't believe he's being such a jerk just because we're women." And I'd be thinking to myself, well, maybe he's a just a jerk! I mean, to everyone! So I tend to just not see those things, maybe because I choose not to include them in my experience of the world around me. Sep 12, 2010 4:01 PM 25 of 26 1. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the Please explain 2 I have had to deal with it, and made myself figure out how to cope through honest statements and often removing myself from situations which were not beneficial to me. Sep 12, 2010 5:39 PM 3 See prior answer Sep 12, 2010 9:24 PM 4 I don't encounter discrimination so much from working with musicians in the community. Usually we have a mutual respect for each other, and if anything, being young and female has been an advantage for me. People are more likely to remember you and call you for work. I don't encounter sexual advances often, and if I do, I find I can deal with it myself. Sep 12, 2010 11:33 PM 5 It has somewhat because the discrimination turns me off from actually going to the gigs where I know I can find a spot and play. Because if they are more likely to choose a male counterpart, then what's the point of going? Tolerance of the sexual discrimination is limiting, albeit my high level of patience with my male counterparts. Sep 13, 2010 2:29 PM 6 Sure, negative experiences have definitely made me very cautious about what groups I get involved with. These experiences have also intimidated me. It's harder to take risks and put myself out. Sep 13, 2010 3:36 PM 7 it's made things difficult at times, but i've learned how to deal with those comments when they arise, and the vast majority of the jazz community has my back and will call other people out when those comments come up. Sep 13, 2010 5:25 PM 8 I see that guys tend to pick other guys to play drums with more often than me. Even if I'm good, they still pick someone else to play with them. I think it has to do with me being female. I don't get asked to play too many gigs. I wish they would because I have a lot to offer musically. Sep 13, 2010 5:45 PM 9 Not that I have been made aware of-- however, it is possible that others have limited my involvement Sep 13, 2010 8:15 PM 10 Sometimes I dread going out, not knowing what will be said, what advances will be made--I just know to expect something. So, although I have many friends and am a social person, I find myself keeping my distance from certain musicians. Sep 13, 2010 11:21 PM 11 I try for that not to happen but the truth is, after these situations, we kind of loose our interest to play again on some of these places. And we need the money! :) Sep 14, 2010 12:51 PM 12 I rarely go to jam sessions because of the negative behavior I have experienced at them. Sep 14, 2010 4:11 PM 13 I am cast aside as another girl saxophone player. Sep 14, 2010 9:56 PM 14 No, I still feel active in the jazz community. It's motivating to feel like you have to prove yourself even if it gets tiring. Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM 15 Jazz has limited my participation in the jazz community! I don't play strictly just jazz anymore, tho it really influences the music i play and write. I don't believe this is due to any discrimination, I just wanted to make new music. I don't feel so much discrimination in the music scenes that I play in (blues, soul, afro) but I think that is because i am mostly playing in my band where I am the leader. The very real imbalance of numbers of male versus female musicians has however been a HUGE motivation for me, I'm determined to help prove that girls can play and write music just as well as guys. There should be more of us. I'm not sure why this imbalance exists and if it is because of discrimination then I think this is a very important project! I would love to find more solidarity with other women musicians but sadly I do not come across that many in my genres. Sep 15, 2010 3:29 AM 16 I don't really like the vibe at jam sessions Sep 15, 2010 4:15 AM 17 I feel like I haven't been a part o the family or included in the same way that men include each other...I've never had the opportunity to live with other jazz musicians because thy didn't way to live with a girl... Sep 15, 2010 5:03 AM 18 Often sexual harassment comments from audience members at clubs/pubs etc Sep 15, 2010 1:26 PM 26 of 26 1. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the Please explain 19 Yes, I have turned down some gigs that were offered to me because I knew that Will had already been booked to play on those gigs. Also, I have also stopped myself from going to see friends play their gigs, because I knew that Will would be playing drums on those gigs. Both of the above situations have occurred on a number of occasions. Sep 15, 2010 2:14 PM 20 Yes, part of the reason why I stopped going to jam sessions is because of this. at jam sessions, I think that the competition is so intense that people become more judgemental about each other, and I felt numerous times that I was discriminated and isolated from jazz men. Now I only play at my gigs with people I know. Sep 15, 2010 4:15 PM 21 I think I would be more interested in participating in jam sessions and soliciting gigs if I didn't have to constantly overcome the expectation either that I'm a vocalist or a beginner Sep 15, 2010 4:16 PM 22 I stopped playing straight-ahead jazz for many years simply because it was annoying to be an outsider. The avant-garde jazz community is far more open- minded, and I have never experienced any discrimination whatsoever. Professionally I still lean towards the more experimental side of jazz. Would it have been different had I been male? It's hard to say, but often I think it would be. Sep 15, 2010 5:24 PM 23 As tough as it is sometimes I just keep pushing. I'll never let the fact that I'm a girl stop me from doing what I want to do. Sep 15, 2010 6:32 PM 24 I am somewhat introverted by nature, so it's rare that I will "hang out" or go to the jam sessions. But when I do, everyone there is cool. They treat me well. ;^) Sep 15, 2010 10:51 PM 25 Nearly all the work I have had in the professional jazz world I have initiated myself, or I have been hired by other female musicians. It is very rare that I have been hired by a male bandleader. Sep 16, 2010 2:57 AM 26 I avoid jam sessions all together. Generally, I feel ostracized from the jazz community which is a man's world in which I clearly don't fit in. Sep 16, 2010 4:41 AM 27 it's not very easy to make friends since most of them are male,which does not help further participation in the community. Sep 16, 2010 2:32 PM 28 to a certain level. sometimes i feel that certain colleagues of mine prefer a male instrumentists. Sep 16, 2010 2:46 PM 29 Some clubs, I feel reluctant to go because of the experiences I've had at their jam sessions. Other sessions and events also, I don't feel comfortable to go, at lease by myself. Sep 16, 2010 9:08 PM 30 I feel intimidated to go to clubs or sessions where I know I will be one of few women. Sep 18, 2010 3:25 AM 31 I doubt it, but who knows... Sometimes I think about it. I've had other male musicians tell me before that there are men that probably descriminate against me because I'm a woman. Sep 18, 2010 4:10 AM 32 When I first started signing up to play at public jam sessions in clubs they would sometimes skip over my name even though they had no idea whether I could play or not. I never said anything because I was kind of relieved that I didn't have to play after all. Female musicians can make their own opportunities as bandleaders. Club owners are sometimes extra receptive to female based groups because it is still a little unusual. So we get a little reverse discrimination working for us from time to time. Sep 20, 2010 1:24 PM 33 A little bit - it has just become more of a priority for me to seek out people to play with who are respectful - there are plenty of these people out there too. I have less and less tolerance for feeling discriminated against, and so I tend to leave those situations very quickly, even if it could be a good professional opportunity. Sep 21, 2010 6:18 PM
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trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Moderators forum View previous topic :: View next topic Author Message Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 4279 Location: Des Posted: 13 Sep 2010 08:26 Post subject: Survey
Dear Friends and Colleagues,
As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I am conducting an online survey on gender discrimination in instrumental jazz.
ARIEL ALEXANDER
-- Ariel Alexander www.ArielAlexander.com www.RockStarWorkshop.net _________________ Bill Bergren Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal. www.synergyjazz.org
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 4950 Location: AVL|NC|USA Posted: 13 Sep 2010 10:51 Post subject: Re: Survey
By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz? _________________ Rich Willey Variations on Clarke's Second Study, Vol. 1 24 melodic variations through the 7 modes of the major scale, for trumpet
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bs Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2005 Posts: 393 Location: Iowa City Posted: 13 Sep 2010 10:57 Post subject: Re: Survey
Location: Iowa City have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?
My thoughts exactly.... _________________ Brent Sandy Powell Signature Trumpet Hammond Design Mouthpieces Lecturer on the UIowa Jazz Faculty
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trumpet7015 New Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 Posts: 9 Posted: 13 Sep 2010 10:59 Post subject:
The only discriminating I ever see is based on how you play.
Play your ass off, good things happen.
Don't, and they don't.
Every band I see is a real mix, and at least out here, the only thing people care about is can you play - and also that you are not a world class a hole, lol.
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 1605 Location: Riverside, CA Posted: 13 Sep 2010 20:36 Post subject: Re: Survey
By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?
Exactly.
Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors should have already pointed this out to you.
Go back to the drawing board. Or better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard-earned money during this time of financial hardship. _________________ http://www.brassworks.org
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RandyTX Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 473 Location: Texas Posted: 13 Sep 2010 20:51 Post subject: Re: Survey
markp wrote: Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors should have already pointed this out to you.
Now you understand exactly how the nightly news broadcasts' "polling data" is collected. _________________ Kanstul 1525 Flugel ('10), Bach Strad ML 37 ('80), Olds Recording Cornet ('51)
"Play the music, not the instrument."
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 729 Location: Georgia Posted: 13 Sep 2010 21:07 Post subject:
I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a reasonable project. He said it is part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of gender bias in the jazz world, and it would be interesting to find out how women in the middle of it feel about the issue and how they have been effected. _________________ Craig
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RandyTX Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 473 Location: Texas Posted: 13 Sep 2010 21:10 Post subject:
I wonder how popular Diana Krall would be if it she wasn't female.
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 729 Location: Georgia Posted: 13 Sep 2010 21:28 Post subject:
There are certainly those who have "made it" but I suspect it is still harder for a woman to be accepted in many environments, and harder for a woman to feel equal respect. There's a news story today about a reporter allegedly being harassed by the Jets. _________________ Craig
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 1605 Location: Riverside, CA Posted: 13 Sep 2010 21:48 Post subject:
tptptp wrote: I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a reasonable project. He said it is part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of gender bias in the jazz world, and it would be interesting to find out how women in the middle of it feel about the issue and how they have been effected.
Yeah, but WHO CARES!
I'm sure there has been a lot of "gender bias" in the fishing lure business, the basket weaving business and the pet grooming business.
Boo-hoo!
I have a daughter in high-school all primed to go into college. I love her with all my heart and want her to achieve in any field she chooses. If I really believed that her prospects would be diminished by bias, then I would join in big-time with you wussy liberal bed-wetters and whiners.
But I don't buy it, and neither does my liberal, feminist sax-playing wife.
Females in the U.S.A. today have the greatest prospects for success of any cohortf their gender has ever enjoyed in the history of mankind--in spite of the horrendous state of our nation at present.
So please--consider getting a real job. _________________ http://www.brassworks.org
Last edited by markp on 13 Sep 2010 22:01; edited 2 times in total
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 6168 Location: Chicago area Posted: 13 Sep 2010 21:50 Post subject:
Asking how popular Diana Krall would be if she wasn't female is like asking what chairs would look like if your knees bent the other way. _________________ "Stay thirsty, my friends!"
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starkadder Regular Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 79 Posted: 13 Sep 2010 21:54 Post subject:
If gender discrimination in fact does not exits, won't his research uncover this? And if it does exists, won't it shed a helpful light on whether it is pervasive or isolated, and just how bad things are?
Now go back to yelling at the kids on your lawn...
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 1998 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posted: 13 Sep 2010 23:04 Post subject:
jhatpro wrote: Asking how popular Diana Krall would be if she wasn't female is like asking what chairs would look like if your knees bent the other way.
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Since female artists NEVER capitalize on their attractiveness... _________________ Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet Besson 709 Bb Trumpet Olds Ambassador Bb Trumpet
"90% [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish Whiskey. The other 10% I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw, Philly relief pitcher
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RandyTX Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 473 Location: Texas Posted: 14 Sep 2010 00:12 Post subject:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 149 Location: Michigan Posted: 14 Sep 2010 00:17 Post subject:
whiners" doesn't make the issue non-existent. It only makes you insensitive.
And to balance this argument, I've certainly seen it go the other way.
Case in point, a scenario we've all seen more than once: Pretty girl with a great body (who clearly utilizes it to her advantage), BUT....only marginally good technique, NOOOOO soul and can't improvise...
Still on the gig.
Or...Hello? Boat gig? Female leads in the shows are usually ex-dancers, that can only somewhat carry a tune. Past their dancing prime, but still a sexual commodity.
Wouldn't happen that way with a dude.
Sexism isn't just guys being jerks. It's women thinking about self promotion, men having ulterior motives in hiring practices, and people not caring about bigger issues. But it's always going to be that way, as long as it's a "biz".
IMHO
Just sayin'. _________________ Brad Fowler YTR-6310Z (Delacquered) Warburton 5S/Qm
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 1983 Location: Novato, CA Posted: 14 Sep 2010 00:42 Post subject:
Perfectly reasonable to me. The candidate is likely looking for experiences that are specific to the sample being studied. None of you know what the survey consists of, and my guess, which is no better or worse than any of yours, is that the questionnaire regards experiences specific to the target sample.
Anyways, if you don't agree with the methodology, as little as has been divulged here, fine, don't pass it on. But you have far too little information to go on to condemn it. _________________ Callet Sima Flip Oake's Wild Thing
Flip Oake's Wild Thing Flugel Reeves mouthpieces
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 729 Location: Georgia Posted: 14 Sep 2010 09:09 Post subject:
markp wrote: tptptp wrote: I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a reasonable project. He said it is part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of gender bias in the jazz world, and it would be interesting to find out how women in the middle of it feel about the issue and how they have been effected.
Yeah, but WHO CARES!
I'm sure there has been a lot of "gender bias" in the fishing lure business, the basket weaving business and the pet grooming business.
Boo-hoo!
I have a daughter in high-school all primed to go into college. I love her with all my heart and want her to achieve in any field she chooses. If I really believed that her prospects would be diminished by bias, then I would join in big-time with you wussy liberal bed-wetters and whiners.
But I don't buy it, and neither does my liberal, feminist sax-playing wife.
Females in the U.S.A. today have the greatest prospects for success of any cohortf their gender has ever enjoyed in the history of mankind--in spite of the horrendous state of our nation at present.
So please--consider getting a real job.
Wow. Your daughter's prospects will be influenced by bias of many types, because she will deal with biased people. Since when did gathering information become equivalent to bedwetting and whining? Opportunities in
2010 are available to more people than in the past exactly because some were interested in obtaining and revealing data, and the data pricked the hearts of enough people to bring about change. _________________ Craig
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lh Claude Gordon Forum Moderator
Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 2060 Posted: 14 Sep 2010 10:17 Post subject:
I think some of you are jumping to conclusions. I'll bet this is for a research design class. It looks like Ariel (who apparently is a female and NOT Billy B) wants to collect survey data regarding the perceptions of female collegiate jazz musicians toward issues of gender discrimination. She has determined that she wishes to study a population of females, has appropriately selected a female sample..... that would make sense. Since online survey instruments by definition negate random sampling or assignment, that particular delimitation must have been considered when the survey approach was selected.
If this were for a dissertation proposal, of course the methodology could be problematic, and she'd potentially lose a lot of data from men that she could use IF her primary hypothesis was found untenable.
Looking at her website, I see that she is pursuing her doctorate at USC. If this was at the heart of a dissertation proposal, she would most likely already have achieved doctoral candidate status before writing in earnest... something that doesn't usually happen during the 2nd week of September. Doctoral candidates are usually quite proud of achieving that status, and would certainly put that on their website if such was the case. But she did not.
So I'll bet she's getting going on her coursework, and is looking for a little help increasing the size of her sample. That's all...
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The Kraken Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 206 Location: 805 Area Code Posted: 14 Sep 2010 11:25 Post subject: Re: Survey
Posts: 206 Location: 805 Area Code BeboppinFool wrote: By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?
Exactly.
Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors should have already pointed this out to you.
Go back to the drawing board. Or better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard- earned money during this time of financial hardship.
WOW !! Thats RAW !!! _________________ 1947 Selmer Grand Prix US Air Force 1974 - 1980 Comback player start date: 9/06/2009 Comeback Player end date: Till Death Do Us Part
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 1744 Location: Ithaca NY Posted: 14 Sep 2010 11:26 Post subject:
Assuming makes a$$es out of you and me.
Who knows how Ariel is paying for school? Don't assume it is her parents.
If we find the survey plausible, don't assume we are liberals and/or whiners. And don't assume you know how
I have read enough posts and threads on the subject of female trumpet players - Alison Balsom, Tine Thing Helseth, in particular, to know that those of us who aren't female (maybe I should say who like girls) are definitely affected by more than just the way they play, though many will deny it. Gender bias is what it is and will always be what it is because of the undeniable facts that make up the human condition. That we are sexual creatures is completely inescapable, and it is part and parcel of all we, as humans, do.
I am not really surpirsed at the commotion generated by Billy B's post, because it speaks 100% to my last paragraph. But a little restraint might be appropriate. However, this is a trumpet players forum, so I guess I am not being realistic. One thing we are - me included - is opinionated. _________________ veery715
-Never play it the same way once.
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trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Moderators forum View previous topic :: View next topic Author Message Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posted: 15 Sep 2010 14:31 Post subject:
You GUYS should read the survey before shooting off your mouths.
What a bunch of pigs!
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 4950 Location: AVL|NC|USA Posted: 15 Sep 2010 15:16 Post subject:
Billy B wrote: You GUYS should read the survey before shooting off your mouths.
What a bunch of pigs!
I ask a simple question and am accused of shooting off my mouth and am then called a pig?
Congratulations, Bergren. Any credibility you may have ever had with me is now gone forever. _________________ Rich Willey Variations on Clarke's Second Study, Vol. 1 24 melodic variations through the 7 modes of the major scale, for trumpet
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 1744 Location: Ithaca NY Posted: 15 Sep 2010 15:26 Post subject:
I don't think he meant you (or me), Rich, but it caught me a bit off balance too. _________________ veery715
-Never play it the same way once.
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The Kraken Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 206 Location: 805 Area Code Posted: 15 Sep 2010 16:23 Post subject:
veery715 wrote: I don't think he meant you (or me), Rich, but it caught me a bit off balance too.
I think he might have been imitating Mel Gibson with that commit!!! _________________ 1947 Selmer Grand Prix US Air Force 1974 - 1980 Comback player start date: 9/06/2009 Comeback Player end date: Till Death Do Us Part
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 1124 Location: Orange County, CA Posted: 15 Sep 2010 17:24 Post subject:
I can sympathize with the OP, the first bunch of responces were decidedly negative, assumed the worse or were otherwise critical which kind of took me by suprise too. It's research on a subject I certainly care about and I think the author of the study deserves the benefit of the doubt. On the up side, since the opening salvos a majority of responces have been either supportive or neutral. I hope Ariel doesn't abondon her efforts on our account. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't." Charles J Heiden/Southern California, USA Bach Strad 180ML43/43* Bb Yamalone 6445HGII/MC2 C Yamaha 731 Flugel Kanstul 920 Picc Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/5C underpart
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 2146 Posted: 15 Sep 2010 17:35 Post subject:
Combining the first and last OP's posts, here we go:
Dear Friends and Colleagues,
As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I am conducting an online survey on gender discrimination in instrumental jazz.
I'm hoping you can do me a favor by forwarding this email on to any female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years.
The link for the online survey is: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/femalejazz
Thanks very much,
ARIEL ALEXANDER
You GUYS should read the survey before shooting off your mouths.
What a bunch of pigs! _________________ Bill Bergren
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 1124 Location: Orange County, CA Posted: 15 Sep 2010 17:43 Post subject:
Why the surprise? Billy lets Ariel post a sincere request and initially gets attacked followed by posts about how female trumpet players cash in on their looks. Billy takes exception to the harsh treatment and posts an angry retort. Seems perfectly reasonable to me, I was annoyed too.
That said I do hope Ariel and Billy will appreciate that more people then not are indeed supportive. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't." Charles J Heiden/Southern California, USA
Last edited by cheiden on 15 Sep 2010 17:45; edited 1 time in total
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 2146 Posted: 15 Sep 2010 17:44 Post subject:
2. Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate OR graduate) or have you been a jazz major or minor at a university in the last eight ( 8 ) years?
3. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other jazz majors or minors at your university? (NOTE: YOUR PEERS ONLY-- questions about faculty members will be later in survey)
Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances.
4. Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration?
If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution
5. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved in school-related activities?
Please explain
6. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from faculty members at your university?
7. Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or the administration?
If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution
8. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, combos, private teachers, advisors, etc.?
Please explain
9. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the professional jazz world (gigs, jam sessions)?
10. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the jazz community?
Thank you so much for your participation. It is much appreciated!
Last edited by etc-etc on 15 Sep 2010 17:52; edited 1 time in total
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 1605 Location: Riverside, CA Posted: 15 Sep 2010 17:45 Post subject:
Pig! Pig?
How DARE you sir!
I insist upon being referred to by my FULL title, which must include the following:
racist, homophobe, anti-environment, pro-rich, bigot, clinger to guns and religion, Neanderthal, knuckle- dragger, etc....
"Pig" doesn't even scratch the surface!
But most of all, call me by my proudest title--POLITICALLY INCORRECT.
OINK! _________________ http://www.brassworks.org
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The Kraken Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 206 Location: 805 Area Code Posted: 15 Sep 2010 17:50 Post subject:
WOW !!
And the hits just keep on coming........................... _________________ 1947 Selmer Grand Prix US Air Force 1974 - 1980 Comback player start date: 9/06/2009 Comeback Player end date: Till Death Do Us Part
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 1999 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posted: 15 Sep 2010 18:31 Post subject: Re: Survey
markp wrote: BeboppinFool wrote: By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?
Exactly.
Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors should have already pointed this out to you.
Go back to the drawing board. Or better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard- earned money during this time of financial hardship.
Well, I fail to see how this is a flawed premise. Perhaps you folks could explain it to me.
When a person wonders if a group is experiencing discrimination - you have to take a survey of the opinions of that group, don't you? Isn't this exactly that? It might be interesting to ask the general population of that area as well about their thoughts, though it's unlikely that they'll feel they're discriminating against anyone, whether they actually are or not. Who is going to actually admit that, especially nowadays? That'll never happen. A survey that shows that people feel like they are being discriminated against doesn't prove that it happens either, but it's a place to start.
Also, speaking as a white guy, I find it sad that a bunch of white guys think they know about a thing about discrimination. Honestly. What a joke. _________________ Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet Besson 709 Bb Trumpet Olds Ambassador Bb Trumpet
"90% [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish Whiskey. The other 10% I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw, Philly relief pitcher
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 1124 Location: Orange County, CA Posted: 15 Sep 2010 18:48 Post subject: Re: Survey
Crazy Finn wrote: Also, speaking as a white guy, I find it sad that a bunch of white guys think they know about a thing about discrimination. Honestly. What a joke.
What makes you think we're all white! I'm offended. No, wait...I am mostly white...nevermind. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't." Charles J Heiden/Southern California, USA Bach Strad 180ML43/43* Bb Yamalone 6445HGII/MC2 C Yamaha 731 Flugel Kanstul 920 Picc Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/5C underpart
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 1999 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posted: 15 Sep 2010 18:52 Post subject: Re: Survey
cheiden wrote: Crazy Finn wrote: Also, speaking as a white guy, I find it sad that a bunch of white guys think they know about a thing about discrimination. Honestly. What a joke.
What makes you think we're all white! I'm offended. No, wait...I am mostly white...nevermind.
Like I said, I doubt white guys know the first thing about bias - since it's highly unlikely they've ever experienced it in their life. I sure don't.
Perhaps he's right. Is there anything wrong with a survey to find out? _________________ Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet Besson 709 Bb Trumpet Olds Ambassador Bb Trumpet
"90% [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish Whiskey. The other 10% I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw, Philly relief pitcher
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HornnOOb Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 69 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon Posted: 15 Sep 2010 19:13 Post subject:
In 1970, we had a girl bass player in our high school jazz band and a girl drummer in the marching band. This was the same 1970's that UC Berkley did not allow females to participate in their marching band --period.
The point being, is that there were plenty of very qualified male bass players that wanted to be in the HS Jazz band back then -- but they selected a female based on her playing skills and performance. There was certainly no discrimination taking place way back then -- except in the incubator of liberalism -- US Berkely. _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Kanstul / Severinsen Destino 3* Bach TR300
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Bruin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 995 Location: L.A. Posted: 15 Sep 2010 19:16 Post subject:
Yo (whistle!), Moderator! I thought you have a "NO POLITICS" rule in this joint. What does a guy have to do around here to get your attention?
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 1744 Location: Ithaca NY Posted: 15 Sep 2010 19:22 Post subject:
We know a lot about bias - from the delivery end, guaranteed. Only thing is, it doesn't feel the same.
Anyway, I much prefer flippers to finns. Get my seal of approval? _________________ veery715
-Never play it the same way once.
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 1744 Location: Ithaca NY Posted: 15 Sep 2010 19:24 Post subject:
Bruin wrote: Yo (whistle!), Moderator! I thought you have a "NO POLITICS" rule in this joint. What does a guy have to do around here to get your attention?
What politics, Bruin? You are totally off base. Politics was not a part of this thread, with the exception of your mention. _________________ veery715
-Never play it the same way once.
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 1999 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posted: 15 Sep 2010 19:31 Post subject:
veery715 wrote: We know a lot about bias - from the delivery end, guaranteed. Only thing is, it doesn't feel the same.
Anyway, I much prefer flippers to finns. Get my seal of approval?
Gee thanks. Heh.
Indeed. I discriminate at the grocery store or Target, by often choosing the line with the cute checkout girl.
Also, I went back and read your long post at the bottom of the last page. Spot on - much better written than mine. _________________ Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet Besson 709 Bb Trumpet Olds Ambassador Bb Trumpet
"90% [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish Whiskey. The other 10% I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw, Philly relief pitcher
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 2383 Location: Glendora, CA Posted: 15 Sep 2010 19:36 Post subject:
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 2383 Location: Glendora, CA Hey, have you guys seen Cece Worrall-Rubin"s new photos an FB? She chose a really good one for her profile shot. She calls it "Saxual". I bet even her husband likes it! Not so sure about the folks at her church...
Oh, yeah! Tomorrow night at the Famous Jazz club in Thousand Oakes, Cece will be a marquis feature in Rex Merriweather's "Not Your Daddy's Big Band" along with Anne King on lead trumpet, fresh back from touring with Rod Stuart.
What were we talking about???
Brian _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn LA Benge 5X
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 1605 Location: Riverside, CA Posted: 15 Sep 2010 20:14 Post subject:
Bruin wrote: Yo (whistle!), Moderator! I thought you have a "NO POLITICS" rule in this joint. What does a guy have to do around here to get your attention?
Wuss. _________________ http://www.brassworks.org
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For more information on discrimination, see the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html)
1. Are you an instrumentalist?
2. Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate OR graduate) or have you been a jazz major or minor at a university in the last eight ( 8 ) years?
3. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other jazz majors or minors at your university? (NOTE: YOUR PEERS ONLY-- questions about faculty members will be later in survey)
Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances.
4. Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration?
If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution
5. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved in school-related activities?
Please explain
6. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from faculty members at your university?
7. Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or the administration?
If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution
8. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, combos, private teachers, advisors, etc.?
Please explain
9. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the professional jazz world (gigs, jam sessions)?
10. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the jazz community?
Thank you so much for your participation. It is much appreciated!
Aren't you ashamed to declare yourself a "doctoral student" while submitting this simplistic drivel to the worldwide trumpeting community?
I sure would be.
When my brother was getting his "doctoral" degree in pharmacology, he had to design experiments testing the effects of various drugs on the brain receptors of epilepsy patients which involved dozens of staff and hundreds of experimental animals.
Now that he teaches in a medical school, his students, who are learning to be medical "doctors" must learn to deliver babies and do brain surgery.
At M.I.T. and other such institutions, "doctoral" students are plotting the architecture of the human genome.
And here you are, passing around a politically correct survey that could have been designed by a high school student in her political science class.
How pathetic.
C'mon baby. You and your stuffy professors should get over yourselves and stop trying so hard to be "relevant."
Jazz is art. Jazz is fun. Jazz is just a teeny, tiny little dying form of enjoyment that only a microcosm of the World gives a hoot about.
Go learn a new lick or write and new tune. Leave the navel-gazing to the Womens' Studies department. _________________ http://www.brassworks.org
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Bruin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 995 Location: L.A. Posted: 15 Sep 2010 22:29 Post subject:
Mark, there is a chance that this survey is an assignment for a survey research course at USC, and/or just
Location: L.A. No, survey research is not the hard sciences like the kinds you mentioned, obviously. But, it definitely has its place, and can make significant contributions to our understanding of phenomena, and hopefully helps us find answers to some of our society's problems.
And, you may not appreciate Ariel's research, and you may critique it as you wish. But, there's no reason to berate her as you have. Refraining from such behavior isn't political correctness, but rather being courteous and a gentleman; behavior that I assume both you and I would appreciate from men who come into contact with our high school, and college bound, daughters. _________________ '64 Connstellation 38B Getzen 700S Eterna II Kanstul 700S Jupiter 846S flugel '75 Olds Ambassador cornet
Last edited by Bruin on 16 Sep 2010 15:21; edited 1 time in total
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 1605 Location: Riverside, CA Posted: 16 Sep 2010 08:08 Post subject:
You sound like a nice cat, Bruin, and you're tugging on my heartstrings and appealing to my better angels.
But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever it rears its ugly head.
The innocuous doctoral survey of today will give rise to the quotas and mandatory sensitivity training of tomorrow.
The notion that some schools may institute requirements for concerts--such as at least one arrangement/composition by a female per concert; or at least two solos by females is not at all far-fetched. In my own community, the University of California, Riverside is announcing a new push for "diversity." Too many Asians from what I understand.
Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you see it.
Just for the record, I'd be happy to have any female in my band....as long as she doesn't play better than me......and if she shaves her armpits. _________________ http://www.brassworks.org
Last edited by markp on 16 Sep 2010 09:20; edited 2 times in total
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 2383 Location: Glendora, CA Posted: 16 Sep 2010 08:37 Post subject:
Bruin wrote: Mark, there is a chance that this survey is an assignment for a survey research course at USC, and/or just exploratory research to elucidate some cultural domains underlying her qualitative data for the purposes of refining an instrument and performing subsequent content analysis of future, collected qualitative data. Ariel stated that this was "part of her doctoral research" which could mean anything. I seriously doubt that this instrument is her dissertation; not at USC. Also, Mark, not all students enter doctoral programs as adept researchers. They learn a great deal about research design, statistics, etc. during their doctoral years and are - hopefully - carefully guided by their academic and dissertation advisor(s), which you may know since your brother earned his doctorate.
No, survey research is not the hard sciences like the kinds you mentioned, obviously. But, it definitely has its place, and can make significant contributions to our understanding of phenomena, and hopefully helps us find answers to some of our society's problems.
And, you may not appreciate Ariel's research, and you may critique it as you wish. But, there's no reason to berate her as you have. Refraining from such behavior isn't political correctness, but rather being courteous and a gentleman; behavior that I assume both you and I would appreciate from men who come into contact with our high school, and college bound, daughters.
You GO, Herb! Your mom's smiling (or, is it rolling on a cloud in laughter) right now.
Brian _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn LA Benge 5X
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 2383 Location: Glendora, CA Posted: 16 Sep 2010 09:17 Post subject:
To Ariel ( if you are still reading posts on this thread),
I think what you ran into here are reactions based on what is perceived by many as a current cultural onslaught against the normal, healthy male in society. We are bombarded by messages that tear down our efforts to provide for our families, parent our children, love our wives, even stand upon our principles, or just try to get along with people.
In my lifetime, I have seen vast improvements in racial perceptions, the acceptance of women and the recognition of their value in the marketplace, even the environment. But none of this has resulted in any praise for our efforts or the obvious results. On the other hand, we are expected to bear up under increased scrutiny and disgust.
It has become obvious to many of us that there is only a desire to tear down, and no desire to build up, as far as it concerns those things that make a person a man.
I regret that you received such a vehement rejection from some of our members. We come here to Trumpet Herald to enjoy camaraderie, a little seclusion from the challenges we face, and to breath a little freer than we are allowed to do elsewhere. We even love it that there are women members and wouldn't want this community to be without them.
Your request was made with polity and dignity, but the very premise of the survey you presented furthered the collective accusations of which we have grown so weary.
Please forgive us our shortcomings. We are not "pigs", we are just men. The same anger you experienced, in response to your request, has kept your home and country safe and your university free to survey just what sort of "brutes" we really are.
Brian _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn LA Benge 5X
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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kehaulani Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 102 Location: Austin Posted: 16 Sep 2010 12:26 Post subject:
Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first place. _________________ You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 1124 Location: Orange County, CA Posted: 16 Sep 2010 13:08 Post subject:
To the OP - unfortunately I'm of no help since I don't know anyone included in your criterion. That says something, doesn't it?
To the rest - I'm certainly very familiar with man-bashing and I've certainly had to stand up against it from time to time. But it's a stretch to assume a scholastic survey will result in anything anti-male. Even so, are we really at the stage of this issue to assume that men in all generality are more victimized by PC zeal than women are from gender discrimination? Are men all that often chastized for being brutish and insensitive? Sure. When so accused does that EVER result in anything consequential like personal intimdation or professional exclusion? I doubt it. Quote: But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever it rears its ugly head.
Intollerance and ignorance are the banes of our society. EXCESS political correctness is just a nusicence that people like to rail against. And just because it's anti-PC doesn't mean we should all go out and do it. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't." Charles J Heiden/Southern California, USA
Last edited by cheiden on 16 Sep 2010 15:46; edited 1 time in total
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Cunuckle Head Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2010 Posts: 215 Location: Canada Posted: 16 Sep 2010 13:24 Post subject:
First off, the last three posts are spot on. Thank you. I feel that the response of some has proven the need for this type of study.
With respect to the survey methodology used, the student is using acceptable qualitative research methods here. I expect that this research is at a very early stage and that the student/researcher is attempting to develop broad themes that will be researched further. To compare this research methodology to pharmacology research shows incredible ignorance on that poster's part and little to no knowledge of social research methodology. _________________ Rick
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 1744 Location: Ithaca NY Posted: 16 Sep 2010 13:50 Post subject:
Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive with courtesy and civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what you consider an ill-conceived premise, and it is another thing to do so in a blistering, rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face diatribe. I understand that it is easy to be angry these days, even though such anger only damages those who harbor it.
An apology is due to Ariel, and to Billy B., especially IMO from markp, who really needs to get over what it is that is eating at him. _________________
Ithaca NY veery715
-Never play it the same way once.
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 4279 Location: Des Moines Posted: 16 Sep 2010 15:00 Post subject:
kehaulani wrote: Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first place.
Sexual bias is the dirty little secret of civil rights. Women are paid less for the same work.They are passed up for promotions more often. But it seems less attention is paid these injustices than when race is involved. I and every other person on this planet takes note of a person's apearance. But as human beings we should be able to use our intellect to form an opinion.That is what makes us different from the lower species.
ie Don't think with your dick. _________________ Bill Bergren Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal. www.synergyjazz.org
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 1998 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posted: 16 Sep 2010 15:04 Post subject:
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 1998 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever it rears its ugly head...
Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you see it.
veery715 wrote: Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive with courtesy and civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what you consider an ill-conceived premise, and it is another thing to do so in a blistering, rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face diatribe.
Indeed. Political correctness is often silly and banal. Unfortunately, "outrage" against political correctness is also frequently just an excuse to act like a complete jerk.
This really sums it up: kehaulani wrote: Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first place.
Actions speak louder than words, but often words speak loudly about the one speaking them.
Good luck in your survey. _________________ Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet Besson 709 Bb Trumpet Olds Ambassador Bb Trumpet
"90% [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish Whiskey. The other 10% I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw, Philly relief pitcher
Last edited by Crazy Finn on 16 Sep 2010 15:11; edited 1 time in total
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 4246 Location: Bloomington Indiana Posted: 16 Sep 2010 15:07 Post subject:
Crazy Finn wrote: markp wrote: But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever it rears its ugly head...
Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you see it.
veery715 wrote: Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive with courtesy and civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what you consider an ill-conceived premise, and it is another thing to do so in a blistering, rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face diatribe.
Indeed. Political correctness is often silly and banal. Unfortunately, "outrage" against political correctness is also frequently just an excuse to act like a complete jerk.
+1!!! _________________ Please join us at Virtual Trumpet Studio Forums
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EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 1049 Location: Los Angeles Posted: 16 Sep 2010 15:16 Post subject:
Posts: 1049 Location: Los Angeles bandstand and the classroom, those equal rights are officially extended, but ya know, it's still a man's world out there and there's a long way to go until the scales tip even.
Over 25 years ago, I was hired to work at a local radio station in Los Angeles. The Gen Mgr, sales mgr., asst Prog Director and many of the sales staff were women, and we all joked about it, but we on the air staff had trump cards--- machismo and a microphone. The airstaff was almost exclusively white males, the outreach to the listening public, and while we were on the tail end of feminine puppet strings, you should of heard some of the chauvanistic crap coming out of our mouths. A shrink might of told us we were suffering from a form of gynephobia, and they may not have been far off the mark, but female management not only put up with it, they tacitly encouraged it!
Nevertheless Ariel, women can reach heights beyond their dreams and a study into discrimination might/should include some reflections on psychology and other variables, fear, loathing, perceptions, the times in which we live and jealousy among them. This kind of research resembles something drawn up in the 80's to develop the employee manuals so many of us sign and sigh over. I'm copying one off now for Tine Thing and Cindy Bradley...
ed
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EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 1049 Location: Los Angeles Posted: 16 Sep 2010 15:59 Post subject:
Bruin wrote: "for the purposes of refining an instrument and performing subsequent content analysis "
or did you mean to say "performing an instrument and refining subsequent..." I'm just SAYIN'
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 2383 Location: Glendora, CA Billy B wrote:
Sexual bias is the dirty little secret of civil rights. Women are paid less for the same work.They are passed up for promotions more often. But it seems less attention is paid these injustices than when race is involved. I and every other person on this planet takes note of a person's apearance. But as human beings we should be able to use our intellect to form an opinion.That is what makes us different from the lower species.
ie Don't think with your dick.
Ariel,
Your premise is not "a dirty little secret". I have no idea how old you are, but I'm sure your professors (or their mothers) remember the days of women burning their bras in protest of what was termed "sexual discrimination" back in the 1960s. Then again, perhaps they destroyed enough brain cells during those years that they still think they are in the 1960s. Many of my generation did that sort of thing...
The same old hackneyed mantras are being repackaged and re-promoted because those who thrived on them in the past have never grown beyond them. Things really are different now.
Case in point: Oprah Winfrey is both a woman and black and is recognized as the wealthiest, most beloved woman in the entertainment business (at least). No such thing could have happened in the 1960s, 70s, or perhaps even the 1980s. She makes her living being a woman.
Celine Dion took her talent and, in the middle of a generation of either masculinized women or sluttified girls (pardon my choice of word inventions, but it's how I look at what happened in that time), made so much of being truly feminine (actually making men feel special and valuable in our masculinity) that we clamored to buy her CDs and tickets to her shows where she made untold millions.
I value women who are women. I chafe at women who try to be men. While it may be true that women still don't get payed as much for the same work as men (somehow, lately I see a trend to hire women over men, myself), I wonder why women want to do that work so much. Do you have so little respect for the feminine value of a real lady that you must twist her into some grotesque caricature of a she-man? Personally, I long for the day when women are free to be women again in America. I miss them.
Brian
p.s. If I wrote, "Don't point your tits at me!" you'd think less of me wouldn't you? Why is it somehow clever of you, Doctor, to besmirch my anatomy? How does it make you more of a woman? _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn LA Benge 5X
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Bruin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 995 Location: L.A. Posted: 16 Sep 2010 16:26 Post subject:
EdMann wrote: Bruin wrote: "for the purposes of refining an instrument and performing subsequent content analysis "
or did you mean to say "performing an instrument and refining subsequent..." I'm just SAYIN'
Man, Ed (or did I mean to say "Ed Mann"?), I can always count on you for a laugh!
BTW, Brian, Ariel is not Billy B. _________________ '64 Connstellation 38B Getzen 700S Eterna II Kanstul 700S Jupiter 846S flugel '75 Olds Ambassador cornet
Last edited by Bruin on 16 Sep 2010 16:29; edited 1 time in total
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 1605 Location: Riverside, CA Posted: 16 Sep 2010 16:29 Post subject:
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 1605 Location: Riverside, CA Crazy Finn wrote: markp wrote: But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever it rears its ugly head...
Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you see it.
veery715 wrote: Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive with courtesy and civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what you consider an ill-conceived premise, and it is another thing to do so in a blistering, rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face diatribe.
Indeed. Political correctness is often silly and banal. Unfortunately, "outrage" against political correctness is also frequently just an excuse to act like a complete jerk.
This really sums it up: kehaulani wrote: Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first place.
Actions speak louder than words, but often words speak loudly about the one speaking them.
Good luck in your survey.
They said the same thing to my Grandpa Hienrich back in Bavaria in the 1930s. "Heinrich," they said, "don't be so rude to those nice blond-haired, blue-eyed boys goose-stepping down the street in their brown shirts!"
Tyranny creeps in politely on soft cat paws. But when the jack-booted thugs are kicking down your doors to verify that you have the requisite number of Maria Schnieder cds in your collection, you'll see what was hiding behind those soft purrs and cuddly looks.
First, they came for the rude misogynists, but because I was not a rude misogynist, I said nothing.....then they came for ME!
You guys are just begging for P.E.T.A. to come knocking at the door with their survey about how trumpet- playing hurts dogs' sensitive ears and causes them emotional distress. Don't say I didn't warn you!
First, they came for the rude misogynists, but because I was not a rude misogynist, I said nothing.....then they came for ME!
You guys are just begging for P.E.T.A. to come knocking at the door with their survey about how trumpet- playing hurts dogs' sensitive ears and causes them emotional distress. Don't say I didn't warn you!
I'll keep looking out for your liberty, even if you don't want me to because......
There's a mightly wind a blowin....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0hyExZ9Dfo
...and it's blowin' you and me. _________________ http://www.brassworks.org
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