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Traever-Andrea Guingrich
October 17 at 5:55pm
And another one bites the dust...
The one upside to this continual trend is the exposure of bad churches led by unfaithful men.
This analysis is gold. Don't miss these few excellently worded paragraphs...
"a non-answer is an answer. Lets be very clear on that. Its also a very vapid answer. What were
seeing in many corners of evangelicalism is a pliability that makes Christianity an obsequious
servant to whatever the reigning zeitgeist is. With non-answers like this, it isnt Jesus who is sitting at
the right hand of the Father. Culture is. Perhaps Hillsong would rather abide by a Dont Ask; Dont
Tell policy on matters of orthodoxy. Thats their prerogative. But lets be clear that this is not the
route of faithfulness."
"This is, as Ive written elsewhere, a gentrified fundamentalist withdrawal rooted in the belief that the
foreignness of Christianity cant overcome the tired intellectual patterns of cultural decay. At the end
of the day, I think Hillsongs non-answer answer is rooted in an embarrassment about what the Bible
teaches and the church has held since the time of Jesus. The good news is that the truth of
Christianity outlasts the untruths of mans applause.
When I read stuff like this, my reaction isnt anger. Its an eye-roll. Churches should know better than
to believe the myth that accommodation will swell their ranks. The opposite happens."
http://www.firstthings.com//firs/2014/10/a-church-in-exile


Hillsong Shifts on Homosexuality
Religion, and maybe Ebola, owned the news this week. From the confusion and public relations . . . .
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
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Madison Sprague, Nate Milne, Ted Wiegand and 20 others like this.

Brock Gerber no surprise here. scary thing is how many parents are allowing this music on their kids iPods and
they don't even realize what they are exposing to them and supporting! hopefully this will open some eyes!
October 17 at 6:17pm Unlike 3

Jonathan Eberhardt I think hillsong lost their way long before this conversation. Frankly, I'm surprised they
haven't had a gay worship leader years ago...
October 17 at 6:27pm Unlike 3

Melissa Finley Rivera sad the 3 things they weigh for decisions.
October 17 at 6:46pm Unlike 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich I didn't even know it was a church. I had heard of the band hillsong but that's about
it. I saw an interview with one of the pastors and realized it was a dude I had seen years ago somewhere and
totally agree- I'm surprised this wasn't earlier.
October 17 at 6:47pm Like

John Schick It's groups like this that trample scripture under their feet, while sprinting toward the latest
progressive trends in the culture.
It's also a sad thing that faithful Christians feel too embarrassed to do something as insignificant as raising their
hands in praise to God, for fear of being associated with this garbage.
October 17 at 6:55pm Like 1

Ryan Schick sounds like we should start a cd burning movement across the country. that'll teach 'em to 'non-
answer'.
October 17 at 9:14pm Like 4

Traever-Andrea Guingrich CDs? Psh, they've got a whole church we can burn.
October 17 at 10:05pm Edited Like 4

Traever-Andrea Guingrich BTW, Ryan I know how you like to feign ignorance on this subject but this is actually
fairly simple. A non-answer by a church leader in our time and culture IS an answer. There's no such thing as a
non-answer in a situation like this. The only Christians that can be considered justifiably ignorant of the Bible's
teaching here are those so fresh out of the spiritual womb that haven't yet had the time to read it for themselves
or those so utterly deprived of solid biblical teaching that they haven't been taught clearly. Any church leader that
punts on this question does so out of fear of man or because they are disqualified from leadership by their
ignorance of right doctrine.

The Bible is overwhelming clear on this. If a Christian doesn't want to admit what it says then it is because they
don't want to face the cultural consequences. It's not because it is unclear in the Word. It's not because God
hasn't spoken definitely on it. It's not because we are unaware of the context of the 1st century. And it's certainly
not because the inspired biblical writers like Paul were unaware of homosexuality itself when he repeatedly
condemned it as sinful.

Tami, the only sadness I can gather from any of this is the abundance of church leaders and members so
untaught as to fall for the horrifically unbiblical argumentation of those that defend homosexual practice as non-
sinful. (for those reading this, Tami deleted her comments about these comments being sad)
October 18 at 1:12pm Edited Like 7

Ty Paluska Friends with Stuart Laughlin and 27 others
Weird, cuz Jesus pretty much had a non-answer on this issue as well.
October 17 at 10:17pm Like 7

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Oh so you missed the entire part where he reinforced the Jewish view of marriage
and creation? Funny; its in all the gospels. He had about as much of a non-answer on this as He did on
bestiality.

refuted in under 2 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMv8JKyaI9Y



Jesus Never Said Anything About Homosexuality?
Thank you for watching. Share our videos and please...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 18 at 10:02am Edited Like 1 Remove Preview

Joseph Hodgson 11 mutual friends
Wow. Why is everything so watered down now.
October 17 at 10:28pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Matt 19:4-5 He answered, Have you not read that he who created them from the
beginning made them male and female, and said, Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and
hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?

Matt 5:17-19 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them
but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from
the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches
them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 15:19-20 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness,
slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.

Hmm, Jesus upholding the law and OT sexual ethics, so strange seeing how Jesus supposedly never addresses
homosexuality. Where's that passage about Him addressing rape or shooting heroin? I may have missed those
Ty.

But since we are not red-lettered Christians that don't understand that the entire Bible is God-breathed then we
know we don't need every single doctrine from the words of Christ. Turns out the Holy Spirit co-wrote the rest of
the Bible too so we've got plenty of word on the subject from God.
October 17 at 10:30pm Like 9

Amanda Relph Amen Ty Paluska.
October 18 at 2:22am

Ty Paluska Friends with Stuart Laughlin and 27 others
I wish the line were that easy to draw. Can I ask you...do you have any close gay friends or relatives?
October 18 at 5:45am Like 1

Ty Paluska Friends with Stuart Laughlin and 27 others
And for the record I don't even like Hillsongs. There are several other things they stand for and show off about
elements of the Christianity subculture that are way more of an issue than not taking a stance on the LGBT
issue. Christians need to realize that being so vocal about them and God being anti-gay is not helping anyone. It
only drives the wedge deeper between "us" and "them"
October 18 at 5:55am Like 2

Amanda Relph I have close gay friends and relatives. The Lord gave us two jobs above all else as His children.
To love Him and to love others. Our job is not to judge others. That job was taken (by the Lord) long ago. Our job
is to love others and show others who Jesus is so that they can come to know Him, as well. Bottom line.
October 18 at 6:32am 5

Joseph Hodgson 11 mutual friends
I agree with you Amanda. The problem is that we live in a culture where people are not allowed to hold a belief
different from a majority or in this case a very small minority. We can still love homosexual people while at the
same time recognizing it's a sin. There are plenty of christains out there caring for prisoners and drug addicts and
you name it. Do they support the choices they made? Probably not. Are they loving them like Jesus would? You
bet.
October 18 at 7:40am Like 7

Ric Simmons I think until Christians clean out their closet. Rid ourselves of divorce, couples living together
without marriage and sex outside of marriage, we have no place to judge others outside of the church. Jesus
never judged the lost. He confronted them on their need for a Savior! He did judge His so called church on
legalism, greed and self righteousness.
October 18 at 7:54am Like 1

Ric Simmons Jesus never said he'd know us by our hate, He said He would know us on how we love others!
October 18 at 7:55am Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich There is one real easy way to be able to tell if comments on homosexuality are
biblical or not and that is to just replace the word homosexuality with adultery. Are we judging adulterers? Yes, of
course, the Bible says its a deadly sin and so we must communicate that lovingly to the participants because
their sin will end in their judgment and death. Homosexuality is no different at all. Same goes for fornication,
unbiblical divorce, bestiality, or any other sexual sin. For some reason people are so desperate not to be
despised by the culture around us (a world Jesus told us would hate us even); but they are so scared of being
hated that they cave to those that want to pretend the Bible has not condemned homosexuality along with all the
other sexual sins we readily admit are wrong.

Every comment on here supporting homosexuality is trite and easily refuted biblically. The people making them
clearly have not interacted with any depth with the responses because they are all absolutely void of substance.
October 18 at 9:53am Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Amanda, I'm actual semi-surprised it even took as long as it did for someone to
bring out the old "don't judge card". I'm not sure there is a more misunderstood and misapplied text in our world
today. Matthew 7:1 has got to be the favorite verse of unbelievers because it's so easy to quote out of context.
The irony of course is the passage contradicts their reading. It literally say the opposite of what they claim. It is
not saying not to judge at all but rather not to judge hypocritically: FIRST take the log out of your eye & THEN
take the speck out of your brother's eye. Taking the speck out of your brother's eye IS judgment, but we must
judge ourselves first. Therefore, if I was living in adultery and yet calling out homosexuality as sin then you might
have a point. I would need to judge my own sin first. But since I'm not, you don't. Here's what the Bible actually
says about judgment (hint: we are supposed to and we are to do it righteously; not because we are not worthy of
judgment ourselves, but because God's law is clear)

Prov 27:5 better is open rebuke than hidden love

Prov 31:9 open your mouth judge righteously

Matt 18:5 if your brother sins against you go & tell him his faults (entire concept of church discipline which is
commanded is dependent on judging sin)

John 7:24 do not judge by appearances but judge with right judgment

1 Cor 2:15 the spiritual person judges all things

1 Cor 5:12 is it not those inside the church you are to judge

2 Tim 3:16-17 Bible useful for reproof

and maybe clearest of all... 1 Cor 6:2-3 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world
is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?
How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
October 18 at 2:40pm Edited Like 3

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Here's a very good quote to help you understand: "In a time of universal self-deceit -
- telling the truth is an act of love. Refusal to tell that truth -- unvarnished, ungarbled, unfettered, unashamed -- is
either malice or cowardice. If you know a man to be utterly deceived, & in a way that is lethal to his soul, & you
choose to say nothing because he will react violently to it, you either despise him, or you love your own peace &
safety more than you love him."

This issue really is that simple folks.
October 18 at 9:53am Like 3

Traever-Andrea Guingrich So Ty, the question about close friends or relatives that are gay could not be more
irrelevant. I could give you a list of names (maybe long maybe short), but it makes no difference whatsoever. The
Bible's message about homosexuality does not change based on the particular sins of those near to me. Since I
love them and since I love Christ then my duty is to stand fast on His law and sexual ethics; not to gloss over sin
deadly in order to be more socially comfortable. And make no mistake. None of you would even bat an eyelash
at condemning the sin of homosexuality if it weren't for the cultural climate that reacts so violently to that biblical
message. So you find these silly excuse and diversions like saying not to judge or saying your close gay friends
somehow change things. It doesn't. The Bible is overwhelming clear. Delivering its message with love NEVER
includes accepting a sin that will condemn someone to Hell. In fact, the most hateful thing we could do as
Christians is to remain silent when it comes to this issue.

But that brings up the point about why it gets talked about so much (the supposed "wedge" that's being driven). It
gets talked about because that's where the Christian message is being opposed. If the world were trying to
convince everyone adultery is ok then that would be the constant topic. We're defending against an attack on
Scripture, not merely isolating one sexual sin and trumpeting it as if it is worse than all others. One of the hardest
things to convince the outside world of is that unbiblical divorce and fornication are just as condemning as
homosexuality. And let's not miss the fact that most evangelical churches have to deal with that issue way more
frequently and nearly every single case of church discipline I've ever seen revolved around those two sins. The
church stands for them just the same (at least the healthy biblical ones). The only difference is that the world
doesn't care about those. We don't have to constantly convince anyone that the Bible condemns them because
like homosexuality it's overwhelming clear. We all know those are condemned.
October 18 at 10:38am Edited Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich So Ric you are right about those being wrong and needing to be dealt with in the
church. But there are dealt with. All the time. But that's not an excuse to start ignoring other sins like
homosexuality. And if you don't think Jesus is coming in judgment then I'm sorry but you have no idea what the
return of Christ is all about. We are in the day of salvation now (which is why we are urging repentance of sinners
like homosexuals), but when Christ returns He is coming in judgment and He's not going to handing out hugs and
high fives. He'll be casting souls into outer darkness for their lack of faith and trust in Him for salvation. So yes
we need to tell people desperately of their need for a savior of course, but that message includes a turning form
their sin (which obviously includes homosexuality). A homosexual embracing their sin is not trusting Christ and
it's going to cost them their soul. If we love them as we claim, and I'm sure you all would, then we must tell them
the truth of how Jesus is going to treat it upon His return. Don't worry, they'll be just as offended by the message
that their homosexuality is condemnable as they will be about their pride.
October 18 at 9:54am Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich "Do not judge" (Matt 7:1) rightly understood in less than 2 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9omnGxqhfZw



Thou Shalt Not Judge?
Subscribe! More videos on our YouTube channel, or visit us online at http://www.wwutt.com.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 18 at 9:59am Edited Like 1 Remove Preview

Traever-Andrea Guingrich and for Amanda and Ty specifically that can't seem to understand the sexual ethics
of Christ (again in less than 2 minutes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMv8JKyaI9Y



Jesus Never Said Anything About Homosexuality?
Thank you for watching. Share our videos and please...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 18 at 9:58am Edited Like 1 Remove Preview

Karen Allen Campbell "This also isnt an issue over whether young individuals within the LGBT community have
faced bullying."

This phrase bothers me. We do not have a "thieves community" or an "adulterer community" or a "murderer
community" so why use this phrase? This just plays into the mindset that homosexuality is not sin.
October 18 at 10:02am Like 4

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Amen Karen. Pretty sure most men would be part of the "adultery community" from
looking at a women with lust. But since we don't identify ourselves by our sin, but rather by our Savior we can
consider ourselves part of "Christ's community".
October 18 at 10:04am Like 3

Ty Paluska Friends with Stuart Laughlin and 27 others
I admire your deep conviction on the issue but i completely disagree with you on the issue and still consider
myself a follower of Jesus. I know everyone can't see eye to eye on every issue and we can all use the Bible to
pretty much argue for whatever side we want. Just remember what it feels like to possibly be on the other
side...those whose lifestyle you are against. This is not just one small part of their life...it is their life. And
remember that many of us don't have to deal with a bunch of negative reaction and annoying Facebook posts
constantly reminding us of our own so called sin that each of us all have in our life. Even if you do feel it's a sin at
least post as many frustrated negative posts about each sin that we all deal with so it's fair for everyone.
October 18 at 10:14am Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich As soon as I see someone trying to justify adultery or fornication biblically I will
respond in kind.

This is not some small matter we can just agree to disagree about. You can actually be encouraging people to
reject the law of God and embrace a sin that condemns them to hell. The stakes could not be any higher. Again,
just substitute adultery in for homosexuality and see how unbiblical your thought is.

This is a gospel issue. This is about whether or not homosexuals need redemption (just as I need redemption for
my sexual sin). Christians must turn in repentance to Christ when we come to faith. I don't get to have faith yet
keeping sleeping around. I don't get to claim citizenship in the kingdom yet continue willfully engaging in the sins
that I consider "part of who I am". Homosexuals are called to lose their individual identify of themselves and to
identify with Christ, not their sin. It's no more of who they are than my pride is part of who I am. My pride is a sin
to be crucified and abandoned and battled. Their sin does not get special status just because the world admires
it. Absolutely nothing in the entirety of Scripture can justify your attitude toward homosexuality. Calling yourself a
follower of Christ isn't going to make Christ's (or the Apostles) clear sexual ethics be any different. It seems that
the church has recognized that for 2000 years but for some reason our generation has a short-sighted view of
history and doctrinal polemics such as this.
October 18 at 11:27am Edited Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich and BTW, I see post constantly reminding me of my sins. It's just no one is trying to
justify the sins I see in myself as non-sinful. Literally the ratio is probably 10:1.
October 18 at 10:25am Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich And just because people ignorantly attempt to justify their actions with Scripture
does not mean the Bible actually justifies whatever they are trying to justify. So people "using the Bible to argue
whatever side they want" is not indicative whatsoever of the clarity of Scripture, especially on this topic. Please
notice that not a single biblical argument is or can be made to justify homosexuality (just as it cannot be used to
justify my lust or pride or anger or laziness or...on and on and on).
October 18 at 10:30am Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Bottom line: either accept Scriptural authority in condemning homosexuality or forfeit
biblical authority all together, in which case the argument changes to whether or not the Bible is God's word and
authoritative for our lives. That's what this is really about.

It's really no different than some kid that suddenly questions the authority of the Bible right about the same time
he has opportunity and desire to start sleeping with his girlfriend. It's not motivated by what the text says; it's
motivating by outside influences. In this case it's a desire to appeal to the world and not being viewed in a
negative light by them. Political correctness has never made for a trustworthy doctrinal barometer.
October 18 at 10:35am Edited Like 1

Ric Simmons Trevor- you obviously are boxed in. I believe homosexuality is wrong but I do not think it should be
packaged separately. We Christians like to package sin in separate packages and pick and choose what we
want. Sexual immorality covers everything. We are accepting of people who live together but not homosexuals
this is wrong. When was the last time Christians protested those who are living together? As for Gods judgement
that is Christ place not ours. No where does Jesus command us to hate. When JESUS comes again it will be in
judgement you are right, but we will not be the accusers He does not need us for that! Our command is simple to
love God with our whole heart soul and mind, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Our commission is to tell
the gospel of Jesus Christ and make disciples. I do not see where it tells us to stage protest to the lost about
their way of life. This is reserved for the redeemed! Again Jesus rebuked the Church. The showed the lost of
their need of a Savior and a need to repent of their sins. All of them not just homosexuality.
October 18 at 10:38am Like 1

Jonathan Eberhardt Yeah Trevor, he's right.
October 18 at 10:44am Unlike 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Ric, no one is hating anyone; that is a canard and a strawman.

Did you not read what I wrote? I just said above: "One of the hardest things to convince the outside world of is
that unbiblical divorce and fornication are just as condemning as homosexuality. And let's not miss the fact that
most evangelical churches have to deal with that issue way more frequently and nearly every single case of
church discipline I've ever seen revolved around those two sins. The church stands for them just the same (at
least the healthy biblical ones). The only difference is that the world doesn't care about those. We don't have to
constantly convince anyone that the Bible condemns them because like homosexuality it's overwhelming clear.
We all know those are condemned."

I'm the one that's not separating homosexuality out. Those that are defending it are the ones that separate it out
as if it's not a sexual sin to be dealt with in like manner as the other sins I've listed. You're actually proving my
point.

No one is accepting people living together. That's a matter for church discipline. It is just as condemned in the
church as homosexuality. And like unbiblical divorce, it is more often the reason for church discipline. Both are
condemned right alongside homosexuality.

And again you are missing the point about loving others so again I re-state the quote that corrects your
misunderstanding: "In a time of universal self-deceit -- telling the truth is an act of love. Refusal to tell that truth --
unvarnished, ungarbled, unfettered, unashamed -- is either malice or cowardice. If you know a man to be utterly
deceived, & in a way that is lethal to his soul, & you choose to say nothing because he will react violently to it,
you either despise him, or you love your own peace & safety more than you love him."
October 18 at 10:46am Edited Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich If you are not attempting to get a homosexual to turn from his wickedness (that
includes homosexuality) then you are not loving him; you are hating him.
October 18 at 10:50am Edited Like 1

Ric Simmons I honestly preach Christ crucified and let the scriptures and the Holy Sprit change their lives. I
have know a few ex- homosexuals that have told me that because of how I have treated them. So you do you
and I'll do me and when we meet in heaven we will see who was right. Love u in the name of JESUS.
October 18 at 10:53am Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich If there is one thing we surely agree on it is to preach Christ; I have no doubt. My
only point here is against those that refuse to include homosexuality among the sexual sins condemned in
Scripture. So in that sense it seems you actually agree with me. If your issue is with how the message sounds
then that is a different discussion. I don't speak on homosexuality any different than I do on adultery, bestiality,
pedophilia, or fornication, and I am yet to be called hateful or bigoted for condemning any of those as sin that
need to be repented of. The only difference is I don't have to constantly engage those trying to twist Scripture to
justify those other sins. That's the only reason this discussion needs to continue happening and why we need to
continually address it and why the original article above is so relevant- there is no non-answer on it.
October 18 at 10:58am Like

Tyrese Jackson Hi Traever,

What's clear from those who oppose what your saying is that people will always be lovers of themselves and
their own opinions, and not lovers of what the Bible actually says. I would even go as far to say that you may be
wasting your time here because many people have already determined that they're right and God is wrong.
October 18 at 11:06am Edited Unlike 3

Walter-Lana Ortiz Tyrese Jackson - Everyone thought Jesus Christ was wasting His time too, but that never
kept Him from preaching and teaching the truth. People's lack of reception should never deter us either.
October 18 at 11:51am Unlike 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich My main concern are those in the church that are legitimately deceived- those that
genuinely want to adhere to biblical authority and just have not been taught well. It seems from the comments
above there are more of those type than I'd like to believe.
October 18 at 11:54am Like 1

Tyrese Jackson Walter- Jesus did alot of things. He's also commuicated through his Word that we shouldn't
continue to cast pearls before swine. This whole topic is no longer a rational debate with so called Christians, but
an outright rejection of truth. You don't have to listen to me but I'm sure you know this is a spiritual problem, not
an intellectual one. If they're not already convinced by Moses, neither will they be convinced if someone were to
rise from the dead and tell them.
October 18 at 12:11pm Edited Like 1

Tyrese Jackson Hi Traver, I think you're right. The problem is many of these people have already heard what
you're saying, and read these things in their own Bibles. Many (not all) people just need to be converted.
October 18 at 12:23pm Edited Unlike 3

Traever-Andrea Guingrich The church is being winnowed by this issue and the ones that emerge faithful will be
strong as ever and the ones that give in will wither away to irrelevance.
October 18 at 12:54pm Like 1

Deb Pierantoni Gibson Friends with Amanda Grace
Very disappointing that Hillsong doesn't stand firm in the Word on this topic. When Christians aren't willing to
take a stand on the truths of God's Word, their sincerity as a "Christ follower" is questionable. Even God loves
the sinner, but hates the sin.
October 18 at 1:25pm Like 1

Walter-Lana Ortiz Tyrese Jackson - Yes, I agree with your point. I am all for the rigorous debate, trying to win a
brother, etc. But at some point, we do have to shake the dust off our feet. I guess it's harder when *they* claim to
be a church, or still claim to be a Christian. So, I don't go out of my way to keep preaching to them, but if we
meet providentially, I do. So yes, I agree with you.
October 18 at 2:09pm Like 1

Isaac Steidinger I applaud Hillsong for not answering. I mean let's be honest, a church in growth has negative
publicity like that and say goodbye to reaching the lost. Treaver, do you love lost souls? Then please love them
to Jesus and lets then start discipling them. Don't overbear them with negativity and chastisement. Judge fellow
believers, yes. Iron sharpens iron. Judge the lost? I laugh at the thought of that.
October 18 at 2:12pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich All we are doing is proclaiming the truth that it is a sin that must be turned from.
Doing so is part of loving the lost! Us saying it is wrong is warning them of the final judgment to come.

How about claiming fornication is sin, will that produce negative publicity that needs to be avoided? How about
telling everyone that there is no salvation outside of Christ? What type of publicity does that garner? The
message of the gospel is foolishness to the world and as soon as Christians get over that fact we can all move
forward in preaching a pure gospel that does not handle sin with kid gloves to avoid offense. Your fear of
proclaiming the truth on this issue is a fear of man, not because Jesus always avoided negativity in order to "love
them to Himself".

You think the pharisees got a purely positive message from Christ? You think He wasn't being loving to them?
October 18 at 2:18pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich If we start shaping our message around what kind of publicity we are going to get
then the gospel is going to be false. Guaranteed.
October 18 at 2:19pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich And you cannot love or disciple a homosexual to Jesus if you avoid addressing their
sexual sin. It's literally impossible.
October 18 at 2:19pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Isaac Steidinger, let's say you have a gay friend that says: "hey I'm a Christian, I go
to church, I love Christ and want to obey him...and so does my boyfriend". Answer me these questions
honestly...

1. Do you tell him he is in sin by practicing homosexuality?

2. Is loving to accept his homosexuality or to tell him that it is wrong?

3. What will Jesus' response to him be when he is judged?
October 18 at 2:25pm Like

Isaac Steidinger Key word "friend". Yes I tell. Yes I tell those that I have a close relationship what I believe.

1. If I have their trust and they have mine. The relationship is key.

2. You can show love in both situations. To make that an "or" statement is narrow minded considering the
perspective and calling I believe God has placed me in.

3. God will judge him. I will not.
October 18 at 2:35pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich 3. and has God told us what His judgment of homosexuality will be?
October 18 at 2:37pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Isaac maybe take a look at what Paul says about that...1 Cor 6:2-3 Or do you not
know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try
trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
October 18 at 2:38pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich You unwillingness to judge is not based on Scriptural commands but rather fear of
man. Judgment is not hateful but loving.
October 18 at 2:39pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich because it tells the truth
October 18 at 2:39pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich and in regard to number 2... please explain how you can love someone while at the
same time accepting that which will lead to their everlasting destruction. How can you care about a person so
little as to accept that sort of thing?
October 18 at 2:43pm Edited Like

Isaac Steidinger Let's be clear. I don't fear man. I rejoice in Christ.

Please tell me how this scenario works out here: you are parading down the street telling homosexuals who are
not believers that they are going to hell if they do not change their ways. How many join you in church on
Sunday?
October 18 at 3:01pm Like 2

Isaac Steidinger Ps yes I understand God has told us what his judgment will be. Again I think you missed my
point there
October 18 at 3:04pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich I didn't miss the point Isaac, I'm making the point you are scared to tell men of God's
judgments on that particular sin. And yes it is fear of man and not wanting to endure the politically correct
backlash. Nothing you are saying is remotely close to how Paul treated ANY sexual sin. And did you read the
verse I just quoted you above? How does that not directly contradict everything you've said about us judging? I
don't know if you've read the above comments before you chimed in but the whole "not judging" thing has been
dealt with and refuted thoroughly.

And to answer the question about you scenario is simple: I wouldn't be on the street in the first place. If you
cannot see the difference between that sort of thing and a church having a clear message on the sinfulness of
homosexuality then I don't know what to tell you. You're falling into the trap of believing the two are equated
when they are world's apart.
October 18 at 3:09pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Isaac, what is the difference between the world being offended at homosexuality
being treated as sin and their offense at the exclusivity of Christ? Is anything you are saying not applicable to
both? And if so then do you think we should shape our message about everyone's need for Christ alone to be
saved so as not to offend the world like you advocate shaping our message on homosexuality so as to not
offend?
October 18 at 3:13pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Isaac, if you were merely suggesting that Christians ought not to create
unnecessary offense then nobody's going to argue with you; we all agree on that. But that's not what this is
about. This is about confronting those Christians that treat ANY declaration of homosexuality as sin as if it was
unnecessary offense. Whether you realize it or not that's what you are doing. And in so doing you are saying that
the NT itself is unnecessarily offensive because no one is advocating anything other than churches upholding
what it clearly teaches on the subject- it is a sin and should be repented of. Because Christ condemns it and we
love homosexuals we tell them that truth so they can avoid condemnation through turning from their sin and in
faith to Christ. I'm not sure how you manage to disagree with that message.
October 18 at 3:34pm Like

Isaac Steidinger It's not that I disagree with the message. It's that I disagree with your approach. And lets be
honest, it's not the first time. I appreciate your wisdom. But I'm not sure your arrogance and narrow thinking is
suiting me so well (ie telling me that it is fear of man. You couldn't be more wrong brother) but that's fine. We
have the same finish line in sight, and I'm certain I will see you there. I'm also certain that in our own way we will
both show people the love and truth of Christ. God Bless you brother.
October 18 at 3:53pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich That's why I don't understand your objection to this thread. This thread is addressing
a church that is unwilling to take a stance toward homosexuality. I'm addressing the message of the church. I'm
not protesting gays. I'm not bashing them. I'm not being mean. I'm not even addressing them. But if they hear me
address the subject they will hear a clear message that reaffirms the message of the NT- that it is sin. They will
hear a warning of condemnation from Christ and that I am just as condemned in my sin as they are and we are
both in desperate need of a savior. But you will NEVER once hear me back down or get squeamish when it
comes to telling them the truth that their homosexuality is just one of the sins they must repent of. Again,
substitute adultery into anything you say about homosexuality and you will see if it is biblical or not. Seriously, try
it.

And remember to never use arguments about Christians not judging. There are more than enough verses to
contradict that idea as well as an explanation of how to rightly understand Matt 7:1 (see above if you missed it).

Isaac In terms of objecting to this particular thread I guess it would boil down to this: don't confuse the message
to churches about their doctrine and stance on this issue with methodology of delivering the truth to sinners.
Theses are two different things. I'm fairly certain I have dealt with the church's handling of the issue multiple
times on facebook, but I have rarely had to interact with a homosexual publicly and deliver the message of truth.
The one time I did you it was exactly what I just said above- a message of need for Christ and repentance of sin
that included both him and I.
October 18 at 4:05pm Like

Walter-Lana Ortiz Isaac - Really, there are only two kinds of "relationships"; 1) You and a fellow believer, and 2)
You and an unbeliever.
Being mean or nice is not the primary issue. Being mean or nice doesn't save anyone. However, they will not
believe until the "preacher is sent" and he "preaches the word in season and out of season".
A major problem this day and age is where the preacher is preaching a false gospel, a social gospel, or a liberal
gospel. Any false gospel must also be decried publicly - sometimes the same way Paul rebuked Peter to his face
"in the presence of all".
So, if you are a believer, then really, you have no true *relationship* with any unbeliever, no matter how much
you have *in common* in the eyes of the world. If you waited to have a true *relationship* with someone before
you spoke of Jesus you would never open your mouth, don't you think, because the unbeliever is dead in sins,
and you shouldn't speak to them until you have a true *relationship* with them, or until they are saved?
October 18 at 4:35pm Edited Like

Jordan Dillard Traever, I have been telling people you are a gospel warrior. Battle on my man! We should talk
soon.
October 18 at 6:17pm Like

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
This is why I choose not to believe in religion, even the religious fight amongst themselves on the everyday
approach on "showing God's love"
Shouldn't "love thy neighbor" be just that. ..... love a person for who they choose to be not who anyone or thing
wants them to be. I don't claim any religious preference nor do i judge anyone for believing in one (unless it
promotes/causes harm to others) I respect everyone until I'm given a reason not to, period. For the people who
try to "save" everyone by badgering them with the "you're going to hell if you don't change your ways" bullshit do
you really think that works and how would you like it if everyone who is not a believer constantly did that shit to
you. Made you feel bad for how you choose to live your life, decisions you make, people you love, etc. Sound
ridiculous because it is. I pity everyone that is stuck in such a close minded state that instead of living life you live
for death
October 18 at 7:20pm Edited Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich This is why I choose not to believe in atheism, because even the unbelieving fight
about the everyday approach about whether or not to respect religious people. You see the ridiculousness of that
argument or do I need to continue?
October 18 at 10:26pm Edited Like

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
At least I'm still living life for what it is and not living a life just hoping I'm good enough for an after life has never
been proven to exist
October 18 at 7:25pm Like 2

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
I've yet to meet an atheist that isn't accepting of everyone but I've met plenty of Christians who, well, just aren't
October 18 at 7:28pm Like 3

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Scott you are not a Christian so I am not surprised you are unaware of the teachings
of Jesus Christ. Also, I'm glad you put it that way- "good enough for an after life". Jesus Christ teaches that there
never was and never will be a single soul good enough to enter heaven and be in God's presence. There is
however a God-man that lived a perfect sinless life on our behalf. He not only lived but He died as a sacrifice for
our sins so all those that believe in Him (trust Him for salvation) will be saved. But instead of staying dead He
rose from the dead and conquered sin and death. This God-man is Jesus Christ; God incarnate.

No one is good enough Scott; not me, not you, not the kindest gentlest humblest man that ever lived. Everyone
is in need of a savior. I cannot convince you of that fact but I can tell you it is true and that it is appointed for man
to die once, and after that comes judgment (Heb 9:27).
October 18 at 7:31pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich You've never met an atheist that isn't accepting of everyone?! Wow, where are
these atheists accepting of Hitler? And serial killers? And rapists? And pedophiles? I would surely like to meet
one so I can tell them of God's law and way of salvation.
October 18 at 7:33pm Like

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
Didn't your GOD kill off the everything in the great flood? So god technically killed more than Hitler and you live
and love for him right, now give me another example of why you are right and I am wrong please.
And like I said before and the atheists I refer to unless they promote and/or harm people then yes accepting of
everyone. Javan Bristow Josh Dubsonwould you like to chime in on any of this
October 18 at 7:38pm Edited Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Oh so suddenly there's some objective moral standard by which you can judge
people? Interesting it's ok for you to do that and not God who created them? Where did that objective standard
come from? I assume you are vigorously anti-abortion too since harming people is what determines right and
wrong?
October 18 at 7:40pm Edited Like 1

Alisa Merna Traever I have been reading and praying as I read just keep speaking the truth
October 18 at 7:40pm Unlike 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Yes Scott, God can bring judgment on wicked peoples as He did in the flood. He
has done it in the past and it will happen more in the future. There is no injustice or unrighteousness with God.
He defines right and wrong in and of Himself. And the thing is you know He exists, because everyone can see
His work of creation and know undeniably that He created everything (Rom 1). His message to you is no different
than His message to me: you are not good enough and you need Christ. Join with me in trusting in His work
alone in order to be saved. I don't hate you and I'm no better than you. My need is the same as yours. Come to
the God who became man and saves sinners.
October 18 at 7:45pm Like 1

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
Religion assumes a lot of things. lol its funny how I bring up a point about how god slaughtered people and you
turn it around on me judging...... it's in your bible that it happened I'm not judging anyone here just pointing out
what supposedly happened and how you tried to make it look like atheists liked Hitler lol. Yet another reason why
I usually stay out of religious talk as well you are always right and non believers are always wrong. The
difference between you and me is that if there was evidence of God , heaven, and hell in front of me I world
accept it all and if there was evidence that none of that existed you would still believe. I'm a logical thinker. I use
my mind and not my heart. I try to choose right over wrong not faith over right. I'm done arguing with a brick wall.
I wish you the best in life enjoy it while it lasts and if there is a heaven I hope we all make it. Goodnight
October 18 at 7:49pm Like 2

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
So if I were to die today because I don't believe would that be OK with you, would that be right? In that flood
there were no children around? Innocent loving kids that died because God was having a bad day and said
whoever isn't on the boat shall perish? Your arguments are invalid to me just as mine are to you. In my opinion
religion is just a way for everyone to feel better about knowing that one day they are going to die. I wish there
was an afterlife but I don't believe that there is. I know two things to be true for sure no matter what. You live, you
die that's it. Now have a good night
October 18 at 8:00pm Edited Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Good stuff Scott, lots to respond to there. You keep setting me up to tell you the
good news of Jesus Christ and for that I thank you. And I'm glad you are backtracking on that "I'm done,
goodnight" statement. More chance to tell you the greatest news ever.

First, there is nothing that ISN'T evidence for God. The very fact that you believe in logic is dependent on God's
existence. The very fingers you need to type these messages are from God's own hand. Nothing and no one
would even exist if it weren't for God. He can't NOT exist. He is necessary for anything to be.

Second, I'm not right because of anything in me; I'm right because I'm just repeating what God has revealed. You
won't see me arguing for my own intelligence or ability to think these things through. It's just what God has told
us. It's all a gift.

Third, I'm glad to hear you're a logical thinker. Me too. But I also know that man's logic is fallen and sinful. Not
only that but there is no thought more illogical than that something came from nothing, which you must say you
affirm being a pretend atheist and all. Pretty sure that defies all logic and all rational thinking.

Fourth, I didn't make it look like atheists like Hitler; I merely took you at your word that there were no atheist that
do not accept everyone. Were you just kidding? because I don't get it.

Fifth, I affirmed God slaughtered people. And I told you He will again. I'm not running from the fact that God will
judge and do so by casting unrepentant sinners into everlasting judgment. But I am telling you where there is
salvation and avoidance of that judgment and it is in Jesus Christ. He is the one that I keep talking about you
know. The one who lived perfectly because we couldn't. The one that died for our sins. The one that rose from
the dead.

Which leads me to you answer your question about if you died in unbelief tonight? It's indeed an excellent
question to ask and the answer God gives is yes. Dying outside of faith in Christ leaves only your own work to
cover your sin. Here's the bad news: your work is not good enough. Not by a long shot. I'd give you all my own
but turns out it's just as worthless. But like I keep telling you Scott, there's also good news. Jesus did it for us. If
you believe with your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved (Rom 10:9). Now I didn't just make
that up to get you on my side, as fun as that would surely be for us both; it's actually what God told us. That's the
same God that comes in judgment and yet at the same time provides salvation from it. He is too just and holy to
tolerate sin and let it go unpunished. But He is merciful and loving and so provides a way of salvation.

That salvation is through Christ alone. Come and taste and see that He is good Scott. He died for sinners like
you and me. Come to Christ friend.
October 18 at 8:19pm Edited Like 5

RyanandBethany Donaghy Hope you can find some rest tonight Traever...I commend you on your diligence
and fervor as you seek to respond to so many posts. Keep pointing them to God's Word!
October 18 at 8:14pm Unlike 2

Josh Dubson Traever... Or Andrea. Whichever I'm speaking to on this ridiculous co-op Facebook account.

First of all, the bible is just a book. No greater than your favorite Dr Seuss book. No matter how you want to
interpret what it says, some things should be obvious in regards to how we as intelligent beings treat other
human beings. One of those things is most definitely that you shouldn't be telling a gay person that they should
change or they will burn in hell. That is cruel and hostile..Just like your fun book full of slavery (condoned) selling
of daughters (acceptable) and complete and total genocide.
Think outside of the book, or maybe even just accept the flaws in it's story. You would agree that god is
absolutely perfect and he makes zero mistakes. Yet here we are with a story that shows god creating imperfect
people, killing them all, and starting over. Here we are with more than one version of the bible because he
apparently didn't get the words through correctly the first time (cue "old testament so it doesn't apply" people.)

And here we are for about 2000 years without a single reply or appearance. Just this book, which happens to
have been written as a means to instill fear and control the general population. It's the ultimate invisible baby
sitter.

I wonder if god is brain dead or if he really has no curiosity about his own existence. I wonder if he hears the
millions of football fans prayers during the big games. I Personally like to thank god that my cell phone is still at
red lobster where I left it (even though others children born with HIV are dying without a chance to live at all) he
really cares about us spoiled Americans. So glad he is on our team. So glad we weren't born with the
indoctrination of Krishna as our god. Can you imagine! Praying to the wrong god(s) your entire life because you
were born on the wrong team! Ha!
October 18 at 8:23pm Like 3

Josh Dubson "There is nothing that isn't evidence of god"
"Logic is dependent on gods existence" "these messages are from Gods own hand"

......... Uhhhmm. Can I see some evidence of these claims. (And the bible is not evidence. The bible is the claim)
October 18 at 8:30pm Like 2

Walter-Lana Ortiz Josh Dubson - Everyone who prays to the wrong god does so out of convenience. I sure
hope you don't claim to be an atheist... because there is no such thing as an atheist!
October 18 at 8:32pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Hey Josh, thanks for the comment. It seems you've been doing some internet
sleuthing to convince yourself Christianity is false. It's always easy to see that when it comes around because it's
inevitably accompanied with misconceptions about slavery, genocide, and versions of the Bible. I'd love to
explain to you the relationship of Old Testament to New and the principles of periodicity and covenantal
framework, but somehow I doubt you'd be real interested in such in-depth analysis. Most of the rest of that
silliness deserves little more than a scoff for those that think beyond an inch depth. But hey, I'm not faulting you
friend, I know how hard it is to convince oneself of God's non-existence. Ah who am I kidding, it's not just hard,
it's downright impossible.

And let me get that straight on your last comment there...you're asking for evidence to prove evidence is
evidence? Hmm, ok. Maybe that's some kind of special atheist logic I don't know anything about.

But as long as you are here Josh, let me tell you about this God that you and I both know exists and created
everything. He is a holy God and He hates sin. He's going to judge us for that sin but He also gave us a path
away from facing the judgment of that sin. The path is faith in Jesus Christ.
October 18 at 8:34pm Like

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
Why would god create something just to turn around and say we are not good enough once again your argument
is invalid. If I was going to believe in god I would not love him but hate him. Why does God allow roughly 150,000
people to die each day across the globe? Innocent people who just want to eat starve why does God allow this. I
seen a video of a three year old girl who was shot in the mouth by a stranger for no reason. In this video I
watched her take her last agonizing breath I watched blood pour from her head as she bled out. I watched this
three year old girl die. This happens everyday around the world so why does your all loving god allow this to
happen. Religion is a scam and it holds back your ability to really love life for what it is and not for what you read
it should be. I still cry over watching that video would you? I'm pretty sure she was a Muslim girl so in your God's
eyes she probably deserved to die because her life wasn't good enough without God in it right. I don't need God
to know how to live how to love how to treat people or how to help people. My work is not good enough coming
from the same entity that made me not good enough. ..... They makes sense. If God wanted us all to be like him
then why did he make us all below his standards. As if life isn't hard enough sometimes I would hate to think that
everyday I'm not good enough for a god that supposedly has endless love for me. That is like telling your child I
love you but you aren't good enough and never will be. Try teeming your children that and then explain to them
that is how god works.
October 18 at 8:37pm Edited Like 1

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
Why does every answer become a sermon. Why can't people just answer a question without preaching. Yes we
want evidence other than the bible. If a book is evidence for something to be true then we all need to watch out
because vampires werewolves zombies and Frankenstein are coming to get us but that's OK because there are
mutants that have super powers that will save us all i know this because it was in a book. Sounds pretty silly
doesn't it..... yeah I thought so too
October 18 at 8:45pm Edited Like 1

Javan Bristow Here's your bible.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tOpMs_c6U2g



When WAS Jesus Born?
The New Testament's infancy narrativesthe only biblical records of Jesus' birth and the events...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 18 at 8:45pm Like 1 Remove Preview

Josh Dubson I love the fake kindness peppered with subtle insults on my intelligence. So very Christian, as
expected.
BUT, believe it or not, this dumbass would love to hear your in-depth (see bullshit) analysis of Christian
apologetics. I will be right here whenever you have any real evidence to show me. (Also, you sound like a child
with the triple evidence bit. Don't act confused.)

Yes there are atheists. Which is easier to say than agnostic-atheist. Which is still easier than saying... I don't
know, I have no reason to believe, but I'm sure not going to pretend I do know because of some fairy tale.
October 18 at 8:47pm Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Scott, it seems your comment has reminded me that I must not have been clear on
what sin is. See, God create everything good but He never called it infallible. Mankind sinned. We are all born
sinners. We are not as we were created, but we are fallen and sinful. But hey, I'm not any more happy about it
than you, but I can at least admit that it's true. Inconvenient truths don't always make us super happy, but the
world is full of them. And since you have eyes to see that creation is awesome and incredible you won't need me
to convince you how great and powerful God is. Turns out He so powerful that He can actually use evil for good.
Crazy huh? But yep, it's true. God can use the evil acts of men for good. I'm not going to sit here and explain
how He does it; I just know that that's what He said He does. Luckily, I have a really good example for you
though so maybe it will help you understand. The God-man I keep mentioning, Jesus Christ, the one who lived a
perfect life-- He was crucified. He was murdered unjustly by the hands of sinful men. But God actually used that
act of great wickedness for good, He used it to save sinners.

And to answer your question about every answer becoming a sermon...it's simple really; I don't need to convince
you God exists; you already know that. What you need to be convinced of is your need for Jesus Christ. He can
and will save you if you turn from your sin in repentance and faith toward Him.
October 18 at 10:35pm Edited Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Boy you pretend atheists have lots of energy to tell us how dumb this God that
supposedly doesn't exist is. 3 on 1 is a lot of work. But you're going to get little from me but continual pointing to
the savior you need. I don't really have time for silly frequently refuted claims like Javan's so we'll just skip that
kind of thing.
October 18 at 8:51pm Like

Josh Dubson Right. No time for research. Just like the bible. All makes sense when you don't think about it.
October 18 at 8:52pm Like

Josh Dubson God isn't dumb. God is the question.
October 18 at 8:54pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Reserach? haha. Claims that Luke contradicts himself in his gospel because some
dude making an youtube video doesn't realize Herod was an office filled by a line of fathers and son and not just
a guy's name. Funny.
October 18 at 8:55pm Like

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
Not supposed to be a 3 on 1 but you called in to question my knowledge on the subject so I asked two people
who were brought up with religion and know the bible better than I do to try to help express my way of thought.
You are more than welcome to invite whoever you want to the conversation. Or god could just appear to us all
and end the discussion right now but he thinks that we aren't good enough to be around him so I doubt that will
happen


October 18 at 9:00pm Edited Like

Javan Bristow That last sentence really makes me want to be a Christian lol.
October 18 at 9:03pm Like 1

Javan Bristow How are we pretend atheists?
October 18 at 9:03pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich You keep forgetting Scott, He made a way for us to be around Him-- Jesus Christ.
Remember? You just don't like it. And God doesn't typically just appear to people in extraordinary ways, though
He's done it before. Typically He uses simple means like a dude that just repeats the truth of Christ so that
sinners can hear it and be converted. Maybe it's not too dramatic, but such is His prerogative.

You should probably take notice too that your very initial point about not believing because Christians disagree
has pretty much been proven not true by your own words.
October 18 at 10:36pm Edited Like

Javan Bristow God needs man to prove his existence to people. Interesting.
October 18 at 9:05pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich You're pretend atheists because...

Rom 1:18-23...18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of
people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributeshis eternal
power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So
people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but
they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise,
they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or
birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.
October 18 at 9:05pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Not needs Javan; uses.
October 18 at 9:06pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Big difference
October 18 at 9:06pm Like

Javan Bristow But if he loves me, why would he hide himself behind people? God knows what it will take for me
to believe. Therefore, by not doing such, he doesn't care whether I go to heaven or hell.
October 18 at 9:08pm Like 1

Josh Dubson You realize quoting the bible is circular logic. You're proving the bible with the bible. And while we
can listen to the random babble all day long, why don't we narrow the conversation down to specific topics. I'll
start. Why does an all powerful, perfect god need to be worshipped?
October 18 at 9:08pm Like 1

Scott Hay Friends with Isaac Steidinger
I don't believe because I have no proof that God exists my initial statement was wrong in making it look like
Christians disagreeing world alter my decision on believing in god.
You see what I did there, I admitted I was wrong. Something the religious community doesn't do
October 18 at 9:09pm Like

Josh Dubson Let's quote the lesser heard verses. Just some from Matthew.

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old
Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given
immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19
"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and
gnashing of teeth." 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below.
October 18 at 9:14pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Rapid fire fellas, nice work. Maybe if you keep responding fast enough I won't be
able to respond to anything.

Josh, I'm not trying to prove the Bible. It is self-attesting. It's proven itself true over and over again. And were you
somehow under the impression those hell and judgment verses were not what I was referencing in the coming
judgment of Christ? Those actually aren't "lesser heard" verses, they are in fact the very basis of the warning I'm
giving you.

Javan, God is not hiding behind anyone. He's made His existence undeniable through creation. Romans 1 has
made that clear. And maybe take it easy there on putting God to the test and demanding He meet your desires of
what it will take for you to believe. He pretty much says not to do that.

"Without excuse" fellas, that's where it leaves all humans. You've heard the truth about God and your need for
Christ. If I hated you I wouldn't even mention it. I'm not going to convince you of anything because salvation is
supernatural and since God uses the means of the gospel being preached to save sinners such as you and I, I
will keep telling it to you the same thing and just pray God changes your heart. We need Christ to be saved from
the wrath of God. His wrath is just and holy and guaranteed. Jesus will save you from that wrath.
October 18 at 9:17pm Like

Josh Dubson Question two. How is a short finite life on earth deserving of an infinite eternal life in hell? How is
80 years of living without praising god punishable in such a way? Is that really something an "all-loving" god
would do?
October 18 at 9:19pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Yep. And why did you think the sinning stops in hell? God is infinite. Sin against Him
is immeasurable.
October 18 at 9:20pm Like

Josh Dubson The bible. Has never proven itself true. In any way. At all.
October 18 at 9:22pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Well that good Old Testament has more than a few prophecies that came true. One
of them includes the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. BTW, that's the way to salvation. Believe and be saved friend;
we're all sinners in need of a savior.
October 18 at 9:23pm Like

Josh Dubson I just heard on American horror story "there is no god. But there is a Santa clause" woohoo!
October 18 at 9:24pm Like

Javan Bristow What prophecies would those be?
October 18 at 9:24pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Before I forget to let me point you to a few well done Christian-atheist debates...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLZdOGCE5KQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57cHy4y_QNY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqnTCfjkV_M



The Great Debate: Does God Exist? Dr. Greg Bahnsen versus Dr. Gordon Stein
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? Dr. Greg Bahnsen...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 18 at 9:26pm Like Remove Preview

Josh Dubson Did you see that good one with ken ham and bill nye? Lol.
October 18 at 9:29pm Like 3

Javan Bristow "And maybe take it easy there on putting God to the test and demanding He meet your desires of
what it will take for you to believe. He pretty much says not to do that."

What's this all loving god going to do? Punish me with hell fire when he could just show himself. Because he
loves me, you know. Logical.
October 18 at 9:30pm Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Good question about the prophecy Javan. There are many but here's my favorite
(Isaiah 53)...

1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turnedevery oneto his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
October 18 at 10:39pm Edited Like

Josh Dubson Traveler (cause I give up on that name) racking up some serious Jesus points on this Facebook
thread. I would definitely point to this thread at the shiny gate.
October 18 at 9:34pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Thanks Josh. I'm pretty sure "Jesus points" aren't a real thing but I'm glad you're
impressed. Also, if you read above you might notice that I pointed out none of our works are good enough to
merit anything. But Jesus' are so that's what we trust in. He pretty much has infinite Jesus points.
October 18 at 9:36pm Like 1

Josh Dubson I wonder if god is ripped like zeus?! If his chest is hairy or smooth. I bet his nipples are perfectly
placed on his bulging pectorals. I can only imagine
October 18 at 9:40pm Like 2

Dan Larson This is so entertaining
October 18 at 9:41pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich With the state of poor worship music in the church today I wouldn't put it past some
people singing that, but nevertheless I feel obliged to tell you God does not have a physical body like man.
However, the second person of the trinity, the Son of God, took on flesh and became a man in order to live a
perfect life and die and rise again in order to save us. His name was Jesus Christ and He is the way to salvation.
October 18 at 9:43pm Like 1

Josh Dubson



October 18 at 9:44pm Like 2

Traever-Andrea Guingrich I'll take that as a question about the trinity. Well, let me tell you. God is one in
essence and three in person. Wish I had an analogy to tell you but they all fall woefully short. Think of it this way:
He is 1 what and 3 who's. The 2nd person of the trinity is the Son of God. Not ontologically a Son as your little
confused cartoon seems to misunderstand, but economically the Son. He is equal to the Father and the Holy
Spirit in every way. Anyway, it's the Son who died for the sins of all His people and it is His work that will save
you if you only trust in Him.
October 18 at 9:48pm Like

Josh Dubson



October 18 at 9:48pm Like 1

Josh Dubson But he didn't die for our sins... He took three days off and went on vacation for eternity. What a
sacrifice.
October 18 at 9:49pm Edited Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Modern physics does not require a God to explain the origins of the universe?
Hilarious. Modern physics agrees the universe had a beginning. That which begun must have one to begin it. If
there ever was a time when there was nothing (as modern physics proposes) all there ever would be now is
nothing.
October 18 at 9:50pm Like 1

Traever-Andrea Guingrich What a sacrifice indeed!
October 18 at 9:50pm Like 2

Javan Bristow If it were a sacrifice, he'd still be dead.
October 18 at 9:55pm Like

Javan Bristow But he's a story book character, so it doesn't matter anyway.
October 18 at 9:56pm Like

Javan Bristow



October 18 at 9:56pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Death is not permanent my friend. Not even for us. God rose from the dead
conquering sin and death. We will be raised as well.
October 18 at 10:41pm Edited Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich I'm glad to see when the level of argumentation reaches internet meme and jokes. I
can finally relax because it's so lacking in substance.
October 18 at 9:58pm Like

Dan Larson As zombies?
October 18 at 9:58pm Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Not so much the living-dead, but more the living-live. And they won't be eating
brains.
October 18 at 9:59pm Like

Dan Larson How did this long pointless conversation start. The article was about a Christian band that changed
it's view on gays. Awesome some people are waking up from the kool-aid coma and realizing this world isn't as
bad as preachers make it out to be.
October 18 at 10:02pm Edited Like

Traever-Andrea Guingrich Well fellas, I'd like to thank you for stopping by. I'm on Pacific time so I'm guessing
its pretty late back where you're at. Since the argumentation has reached a level that is not serious or
substantive we'll end it here. Since it's my wall and all I get the last comment and one last chance to tell you of
Christ. You understand. I'll be deleting future comments just so I can get some work done. Plus, I've got church
tomorrow of course. Got a King to worship. But feel free to message me at any time to continue with genuine
questions.

Also, forgive my occasional snark. I find atheists like at least a little peppered in. If not, I apologize.

God saves sinners, of which I am one. I, like you, need to be saved from my sin. Jesus Christ lived, died, and
rose again, That's historical fact. It was predicted years in advance and it happened just as foretold. I urge you
and pray that you would come to Christ in repentance and faith. He's is a great and awesome Savior and a
wonderful King to worship and serve.
October 18 at 10:56pm Edited Like 5

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