We Want the Airwaves Mia Mingus

Nia King: First I want to say I love your writing! Your blog hasnt been updated since 2012. I
wanted to ask you what made you - I feel like you havent stopped writing, but you stopped
blogging there, and so I was curious why?
Mia Mingus: Thank you so much. Im so glad that you like my writing and thats its useful. I
stopped blogging because Im working on trying to get my book finished, which will be a
collection of essays and speeches. Thats been happening for 7 years. When I stopped posting
after the Queer API conference, which is the last post on there, I was like, This is it. This year
Im gonna finish this! Now its 3 years later, but this summer Im going to finish it.
Writing has been probably the best. Speaking is a very different form of - its writing but its also
performance in a way, too. I really like it. I never thought Id like speaking as much and I feel
like I have learned a lot about how to do it and [how] to do well in it.
Nia: Do you travel a lot for speaking gigs?
Mia: I travel a ton.
Nia: How do you like it?
Mia: I dont like the travel, but I love getting to meet people and go places and thats really fun.
You dont get to see the places either.
Nia: No. [Laughter]
Mia: Its like the inside of the taxi cab and then inside of your hotel room. Then a conference
center or whatever. I feel like I could be really good at helping to design hotel rooms now, and
college and university campuses and buildings. Ive been to so many.
Nia: Yeah. Thats another thing I wanted to ask about - access, both through traveling and also at
venues. Is that something youve had a lot of challenges with, or do you find that most campuses
are pretty well-equipped?
Mia: No, its a huge challenge. Most campuses are really not accessible. People will tell me that
the first time they e-mail me or the moment I land. Theyll be like, Our campus is not
accessible, just to prepare you. Thats everywhere. The world is not accessible.
I feel like everybody is trying to figure that out and grappling with basic access, not even how to
do liberatory access. But its rough. I used to travel with a personal attendant, like a PA. But
thats a whole other - even though it makes some things easier, it makes a lot of things harder. Its
a toss up either way. In some ways traveling by myself, even though it means less access, it does
give me more alone time. I can navigate access however I need to. I never know but its been
working out okay. Its still pretty hard, and its really wearing on my body.

Nia: You used a phrase, liberatory access, which I havent heard before. Can you talk about a
little bit about the difference between what you called basic access and liberatory access?
Mia: Yeah, so basic access is pretty much regular accessibility that we see happening. When I
was saying that, using that term basic access, I was meaning bare bones kind of access, like
having a ramp so people can get into a building, for example. Thats not even accessibility with a
capital A.
The other piece of regular access is that it also tends to be inclusionary and more about equality.
How do we include disabled people in our world? Rather than what I would call liberatory
access as more - how do we its not just about inclusion or assimilation. Its not about, How
do we include disabled people in our world? How do we reimagine the world where everybody
has access? Or where access is something thats a value that we hold and embrace. Thats
something we think of as worthy and we think of as a wonderful opportunity to make our world
more just. It gives us the opportunity to come closer.
Liberatory access to me, is how do we, in these current conditions were in, how do we do access
in such a way that it moves us closer to the world that we want. Its not just about, as Grace Lee
Boggs talks about, access to the burning house. Its not about access to the same crappy systems
that we currently have, but its about What would it look like to do accessibility work and
access work in a way that shifts the reasons that even allow for that inaccessibility to happen in
the first place? What would a way to do access look like that not just leads us to the world that
we want but the relationships that we want? How do we do access in a way that deepens
relationships rather than isolates people?
Which is normally how access is done now. Its based very heavily in charity and pity and a lot
of isolation, breaking of relationships, and not being genuine. People have to be this tragic case
in order to get very basic access that they need to survive. Or they have to be this super crip amazing, transcendent, disabled person who doesnt need any help at all. As we know from other
work around oppression, stereotypes dehumanize us and never help us to be fully human and to
build a world that we want. When I talk about liberatory access, thats usually what Im talking
about.
I feel like its new still. Its an evolving concept. It could include lots of different things. I think
about people who are doing collective access and who are even just the shift of moving access
work away from being so individualized and being more collective is a huge shift. Just as one
thread within [disability justice]. Let alone like race and class and all that.
Nia: Yeah, a lot of this stuff is kind of new for me so I might ask you to explain some of it that
might seem really basic.
Mia: Thats totally fine.
Nia: You also referenced the difference between capital A Access and lower case a access.
What are the differences between those two things?

Mia: I was just meaning that theres basic bare bones access that is yknow is having a ramp so
someone can get into the building. Then theres what I think of as Accessibility with a capital A,
which is kind of more of the disability rights access maybe. [Laughter] This isnt helping.
Nia: Im just gonna ask you to explain what that means.
Mia: When I think of Accessibility with a capital A its a little bit more. Its not necessarily
seeking to change the system that we live in, but its doing more than just the bare bones. You
know, a lot of people who need personal attendants or nurse care or what have you. They get that
through the State, through the government. A lot of times theyre only eligible for 12 hours a
week. Most of the time what people are eligible for doesnt even cover how much they actually
need. Thats bare bones access to me, like basic access.
Accessibility with a capital A is like, if someone was able to get the full hours of nurse care they
need for the week, for the month, for the year. But thats still not shifting conditions necessarily.
Thats just meeting peoples immediate needs. Within that, theres just the bare bone survival
and then survival. Those are the distinctions that I see. Its so hard to get people to even get to
Accessibility with a capital A, which isnt even liberatory, it isnt even about care for them as
disabled people necessarily. Its like, what do we need to just get by?
But that shift is so much bigger than bare bones basic access because youre not getting by. I
think about people who cant work, for example, who are sinking and sinking and sinking below
the poverty line because with little resources. That, to me, is basic access or bare bone access, or
not even! Whereas as some people might be like, Oh, disabled people at least make the
minimum wage! That would be Accessibility with a capital A. And some people might be like,
No, thats actually not helping.
All of it is very - theres a whole world in disability justice work. I hope Im making sense.
Nia: No, you totally are. Thanks for having the patience to guide me through some of these
terms.
Mia: Oh no, no no.
Nia: Im interested in how your ideas and writing and thinking have changed since you stopped
updating your blog? [Laughs]
Mia: [Laughs] Thats a really good question. I think thats one thing thats really changed is that,
when I was blogging, I think I was at a very different place in my relationship to social media. I
feel like stopping blogging has helped me get a little bit more perspective. The thing about
blogging - I think for me though, one of the things Ive been really thinking about is, how do I - I
really want to be a resource for people. I really struggle with how to engage with my blog and all
social media and not perpetuate celebrityism within our movements but also within our society
right now. Which is such a cornerstone of our mainstream society is that everybody wants to be
known. Everybody wants to be a celebrity, which means you share your life. Theres parts of that

that are totally useful and awesome, and I think especially for queer people of color, its great to
have that. To create your own media and all those things.
Like everything, its complicated. Its not easy as easy as saying good or bad. There are
downsides to it. I had to take a step back. It was hard for me too, because as a writer, I need
private space to process. When you put something out on your blog or on social media or on the
internet, people respond right away. Sometimes it can be really helpful, but for me I think I just
needed more space to just sit with things. See what I think about them. Thats been helping me in
my writing process.
This summer, I have so much writing that Ive done. I really like that. The blog is useful for
some things, but I think its really great for me to have that in-person feedback and get a sense
of, What do I want to write now? How do I want to write it?
Nia: But resisting celebrity culture is an active part of - is something that you think about?
Mia: It is. It is cause I feel like, within our social justice movements, people want a charismatic
leader. They want to look up to somebody. They want to find somebody to hold onto. While I
think that charisma, people who are able to motivate huge crowds, with the skill of being an
orator and all those things. Their roots are in storytelling. That is amazing. Those are useful
things.
For me, I do disability justice work, but I do transformative justice work as well around
transformative justice and community accountability work. Because transformative justice and
community accountability work is really, I mean disability justice work is about building
something new too, but transformative justice and community accountability is building
something new in this whole other way. Disability justice, I feel like were offering a framework,
in my opinion, a framework, an analysis, or even an approach, maybe, to movements. Were not
at a place, in my mind, where we have a disability justice movement. I think that we have an
amazing community thats vibrant and rich that could be building a movement, but I dont think
that were there yet.
We have so many other movements that have so much infrastructure already built. I feel like
whats useful is to infuse disability justice analysis, perspective, and framework into a lot of the
other movements we have that already have that existing infrastructure. Because they already
have so many disabled people in them as well. To act as if the queer liberation and trans
liberation movements dont have a ton of disabled people in them is ridiculous. How do we go
where disabled people already are? Im getting off topic.
But what Im saying is that one of the qualities that I think people need within transformative
justice and community accountability is this quality of, How do we figure shit out for
ourselves? and How do we start to do it? And yes preparation, yes learning skills, but not wait
for permission. Not feel that someone else knows more than me, or Who am I to do it? I think
the celebrityism piece to me is part of that. People put you up on pedestals and that dehumanizes
you, of course. Theres also a piece about it that, is like I want it to be more like a we, you

know? I like the way Mimi Kim talks about it, that were on the same team and we want to work
together. Im interested in collective leadership.
I dont think that, I want to be clear, I'm not saying leadership is bad. There are some harmful
forms of leadership that we all have probably been witness to. That kind of one hierarchy, one
charismatic leader. Inevitably, most times we have seen leads to abuse of power. People are
human. I dont believe in bad people or good people. I think, given the right circumstances, any
of us can be assholes, any of us could abuse power. Thats all apart of that celebrityism too. Not
just this kind of exploitation that people feed off of you. What did Audre Lorde say? If I dont
define myself, for myself, Id be crunched into other peoples fantasy of me. On the other side,
for that one person, its not fair either.
Im amazed all the time at the way we give so much social capital to people and dont - just so
freely - and dont require any kind of accountability. Whether youre someone everyone wants to
sleep with and then you just get tons of social capital and you do whatever you want to do and it
doesnt matter if youre being a loser to people or a jerk. Or if people are like, Oh, youre our
leader and you do whatever you want to do.
I feel more excited about what collective leadership could look like and how that works. I feel
like its so a part of disability justice too. With disability justice, one of the things were trying to
say is, What does interdependency look like? How do we shift from an independence-type of
framework where its like I do everything all on my own, I have to figure out how to be this
amazing independent person who never has to ask for help. I think we think about leaders like
that a lot. I think moving towards interdependency, its also how do we build, how do we
collectivize things? What would it look like if we lived in a world where everyone was valued
because they all had things to offer, and different things. How do we hold difference well, and
value difference?
I think the current society we live in, I include our movements in that because of course theyre
part of this society, is that difference equals hierarchy. And difference equals inferiority or
superiority. We still really grapple with, How do we hold difference in a way where justice and
equality does have to equal sameness? How do we do that well?
I guess thats my convoluted answer to all of that. I just really want to have relationships with
people who know me. I appreciate who love my work and appreciate my work, thats why I do it
and I want it to be useful. And it can be weird when people, I want people to love me because
they know me, and all my crappy, stubborn, cranky ways. Yes.
Nia: When you talk about transformative justice and community accountability, are you talking
specifically, I guess what my understanding of what that means in the context of your work, is
specifically dealing with sexual violence, and maybe more specifically child sexual abuse
without the state? Is that what youre talking about, or are you talking about something thats
broader?

Mia: Thats very much the crux of what were talking about. I do work around child sexual
abuse specifically, I think sexual violence broadly. What would it look like to respond to violence
without relying on the state? The state being police, criminal legal system, prisons, child welfare
protection services, whoever.
The other piece of it though thats just as much if not more important is, how do we respond to
violence without relying on the state, but also how do we also respond to violence in ways that
actively cultivate the world that we want? And actively cultivate the conditions that prevent
further violence. To me, its not enough to say, Oh, we didnt call the cops, but we still were
responding in really oppressive ways to each other. I think part of what were doing is what
would it look like to respond to violence, that doesnt rely on the state, but that helps cultivate
healing, helps to cultivate connecting, helps to cultivate relationships and community and
accountability - all of these things that we know help to prevent further, future acts of violence.
that we set up the conditions that allow for people to be able to respond to violence better and
more coordinated-ly. I dont know if thats a word.
Those are the two big branches of what were doing. I think were at a really exciting time with
transformative justice and community accountability work because weve had at least over a
decade of really great theory, and a lot of great groups that put out a lot of information and now
were at a time where its more popularized or more compelling for more and more people. More
folks are trying things and experimenting on the ground.
That definitely comes with its challenges, its very hard. I think its really exciting to learn from
our mistakes. How could we not make mistakes? We have been brainwashed into thinking
criminalization and exiling people and demonizing people and punishment are the only ways to
handle things. Of course thats going to take time to figure out what something else would look
like. Even if its not reliant on the state, even if were recreating our own criminalization and
punishment form in our own communities. I also feel like its the only way forward. We have to
start trying it and experimenting. Its not ever going to be handed to us on a silver platter.
Nia: Can you give us some examples of concrete ways of dealing with interpersonal violence
that dont rely on the state?
Mia: I think the best thing - what I would say is for people to go to the Creative Interventions
website. They did an organizing project called STOP where they collected stories from people
around, I think it was just around this continent, maybe even farther out, or maybe just this
country. They went around and recorded people who had responded to violence. You can go
there and listen to lots and lots of different ones. Theyre each like 10 minutes long, some of
them are in two parts just because it takes so much to explain all of them.
Some of my favorites on there is there is a two-parter about a Korean cultural center in
California. They responded to violence and its just amazing the things people shared what they
learned. The places where they feel they failed, or the places they feel they had small victories,
or the things they wished they had done better.

Theres another one out of Durham, North Carolina. Its called A Community Response to
Domestic Violence. Thats also very profound. Thats one of the few stories where the survivor
got everything that they asked for. The survivor considered it a success.
The other thing I would recommend is the Creative Interventions toolkit that they have up on the
website. Which is free to download. It has great advice, examples all kinds of things for people
around anything.
The one thing I will say is that I think an intervention can look all types of ways. I think part of
our work people kind of think, when you say response intervention to violence, its like this huge
thing. Intervention To Violence! I think it can look all different ways. It doesnt have to be a fullblown intervention with an accountability circle for the person who caused harm or who was
violent, plus a whole team supporting the survivor, plus other people as bystanders. It could look
like that, that could be one form.
But an intervention could also be a conversation around the dinner table about the violence thats
happening within your family. It could be just getting the violence to stop. Not even responding
then afterwards, but just getting it to stop. It could be three friends figuring out what a safe word
would be and thinking through what a safety plan would look like. Preparing before violence
happens. I think it could look all different types of ways. Every little bit counts in the current
moment that were in.
Nia: I dont have a lot of personal experience with community accountability processes. Ive
heard a lot of things. One of the things Ive heard about is that it seems like a lot of resources are
invested in the perpetuator or person thats causing harm. I cant think of the word Im looking
for, but bringing them back into the fold of being a person that is not harmful to the community
than supporting the survivor. Is that something you feel like is an urban legend? Or something
that youve witness happen?
Mia: [Laughter]
Nia: What has your experience been with that?
Mia: Man, I wish we had more time because this stuff is so complicated. On the one hand, I
dont even know where to start because theres so many pieces. Yes, anything can happen. Of
course we can play out our own crap in intervention to violence just as we play out our own crap
in anything that we do. So of course thats going to happen. Whether its, like I said, given the
right circumstance I believe that anyone can abuse power. I believe that anyone can be an
asshole. Its not about good people and bad people. I think that just within transformative justice
and community accountability, thats true as well. I dont know where this correlation between
doing social justice work and being a good person came from because they have no correlation
whatsoever. That is ridiculous and weve got to let go of that.
I think that, theres part of me that we have so few resources for people who have caused harm or
who have been violent. Literally, when you look, its true for child sexual abuse and its also true
for anything I look at. When you look at the landscape, just taking child sexual abuse for

example, the amount of resources we have, which are not great and theyre not perfect and we
want them to be better and we want them to be more of course. But for survivors, they actually
have resources. Like I said, theyre not perfect, but theyre there. Theres some for bystanders. If
you wanted to get an education for child sexual assault or see a counselor for whatever, you
could do that.
When we look at a landscape for people who have sexually abused children, whether theyre
adults or youth because the statistics we have are 40% of child sexual assault cases are youth-onyouth. When you look at this landscape there are so few, its so bare. That, I feel like, in terms of
in things that are not getting locked up, going through the legal process - that are not about
punishment or criminalization. Things that are based in healing, or even rehabilitation - we know
its not perfect we want it to be transformative. Even just bare bones rehabilitation.
Theres part of me part of our work in transformative justice and community accountability work
is to figure out, this is what we talk about, is how do we fill these gaps? We know we have to
work with people who have caused harm and who have been violent. Were not going to be able
to end violence by just working with survivors and bystanders.
Those categories are not mutually exclusive either. So many people occupy all three, occupy
two. Are survivors and are people who have been violent. Have witnessed violence and are
bystanders, and are people whether they did anything or colluded with that violence they
witnessed what have you and they survived violence.
I think its also about how do we respond to violence thats happening right now, which we know
we need so much of. Theres also this other area of how do we build what we need and the tools
that we need. Part of that is the services - or not services, we dont want to build a service- based
type of thing- but skills, the processes we need. We know that within that, its not just
transformative and supportive places and processes and tools appealing for survivors, but also for
people who have caused harm, who have been violent. Even in that sphere of work around
people who have caused harm, theres definitely work that needs to be done. But theres less of
it, so we have less to go on.
Theres part of me that says I have no doubt that Im sure in some responses that that has
happened because the current conditions we live in are that when survivors come forth around
the violence they have experienced, they are not believed, theyre shamed and blamed. People
are in denial about it. People protect the abuser, protect the person who did the violence and
abuse. Of course that would replicate in our movements because our movements dont exist in a
vacuum. Our communities dont exist in a vacuum.
I think its a both/and. I think were on the same team, were trying to figure this out, and its
going to take a long time. None of its going to be perfect. That, I feel like, is another one of the
qualities we need to develop in ourselves. How do we be okay, how do we let go of
perfectionism? How do we be like, right, the way forward is going to be really freakin
challenging but were going to stay with it. Were going to stay when things get hard because our
survival depends on it.

But we live in this world where its about easy, its about pretty, its about sexy, its about fun. If
you dont like these people today you go find new friends over here. I think part of it is a
remembering from what was stolen from us. For others of us its a recreating. Its a both/and.
That would be my complicated answer to that. I wish we had more time to talk about that
because theres so much more in there that gets sticky and messy. That is the sticky and messy
reality of what violence is. Of course our responses to it are just going to be complicated and
sticky and messy as that because thats what were responding to. If it werent, we wouldnt be
grounded our responses in the reality of violence. Which weve seen, weve seen people try to
make it easy and try to make it a black and white thing. Just report, report, report. Or,
The survivor is always the good person and the person who abused was always the bad person.
Survivors always hate their abusers. None of those things work. Weve seen that they havent
work. I think were in a different place now and yeah its not going to be perfect.
Nia: Yeah, I think I was extrapolating based on this one workshop I went to [laughter]. It had
nothing to do with childhood sexual abuse. They were these two groups in Philly, one called
Phillys Pissed and one called Philly Stands Up.
Mia: Yeah, theyre great.
Nia: Im not super familiar with their work but I know one deals with survivors and one deals
with perpetrators. I think I heard them talk about some of the the challenges working with
perpetrators that are really just not interested in accountability and the challenges of investing a
lot of energy in folks who are not or seem to not be interested in changing or acknowledging
having caused harm.
Mia: Yeah, theyre amazing. I recommend people read anything that theyve written. Theyre on
the front lines, in the trenches, on making new things, learnings.
The Revolution Starts at Home is great, anything by INCITE is great, anything by CARA is
great, anything by Creative Interventions is great.
Nia: CARA?
Mia: Theyre not in existence anymore.
Nia: They were Seattle-based?
Mia: They were Seattle-based, and they have writings that are great.
Nia: Do you remember what it stands for, just so I can tell people?
Mia: They stand for Communities Against Rape and Abuse. CHOICE by transformative justice
by Gen 5 is great. Anything by Philly Stands Up is wonderful. And theres so many folks who are
doing great work who havent necessarily written about it that are also wonderful. I feel like

theres so many good people to meet. Were so lucky to be at a time where theres such a wealth
of knowledge.
Theres also ton of stuff around restorative justice that I think are really, really useful.
Nia: Whats the different between restorative justice and transformative justice?
Mia: A difference would be that restorative justice focuses on restoring relationships in the
community to what they were before violence took place. Transformative justice folks might say,
You know, actually, we dont want to restore the relationship to what they were before the
violence happened because we think thats part of what allowed the violence to happen.
Restorative justice tends to pull in stakeholders, they pull in people. Its a collective process, they
pull in people from the community. So its not just about the survivor and the offender, for
example. Some of the critiques have been that they sacrificed individual justice for collective
justice.
Kind of like, sacrifice in this way of, which we see in communities all the times. For the sake of
the community, could you just get over it for the sake of the family? Could you just, I know that
its hard but its tearing apart of the family - what have you. Can you just figure out a way to get
over being mad at your brother, or whatever.
Nia: Like asking the individual who was harmed just to forgive?
Mia: Kind of. This is part of larger conditions. So right, it could look like that, it could look like
spending more time on the collective relationships versus doing the necessary time around
individual justice or individual person or peoples who were harmed. The other big critique of it,
is that at least what Im talking about now is that restorative justice a lot of works with the State.
A lot of restorative justice work that is getting funding has been co-opted from Native American,
Indigenous and First Nations folks on this land.
The processes the way that they exist now like restorative justice how they exist now, are very
different now from the way they were in their indigenous communities being practiced for
example. Part of it is because of their conditions are just so different. I think Hollow Water is a
great example around a process around restorative justice thats amazing if anyone wants to
watch it. Its about First Nations community in Canada thats responding to child sexual abuse.
Nia: Its called Hollow Water?
Mia: Yes, Hollow Water, yeah. For example, some of the different conditions they have is that
you know, everyone has a shared cultural and spiritual belief and set of values and practices they
can pull on for example. Whereas in the Bay Area that is not always the case. There are very
different conditions in which it is practiced as well as the fact that it has been co-opted. And now
of course its being funded by the State or being run side-by-side with the State. There are
different states, like in Pennsylvania, I think for example, they have a whole department of it.
Where survivors -

Nia: Department of restorative justice?

Mia: Yeah, within their criminal legal system. So you can choose, theres like a set amount of
time I think? I might be wrong on some of this, but where you can choose to have a restorative
justice type of process with the person who was violent towards you.
There are some differences. A lot of transformative justice people would also say, What are we
restoring to? When was there not violence? What does that look like? What I would say, is that
even if there was something to restore to, were in such different conditions now. I mean we have
drones that fly in the air and kill people.
Part of what our task is not just remembering and reclaiming but also reimagining, its both of
those things. Because things arent the way that they were. Even if we go back to something,
we still have to figure out what to do with generational trauma. Thats going to be with us for a
while, whether we like it or not.
One thing I should add is that transformative justice is more about transforming the conditions
that allowed the conditions that allowed for the violence to happen in the first place. We
wouldnt talk about restoring the conditions or restoring the relationships to what they were
before the violence happened. We would say, How do we use our response to violence? How
does our response to violence shift those conditions and transform those relationships to
conditions and relationships that would prevent future acts of violence from happening?
This is the quick and dirty of it. I definitely encourage people to read more on it. I say that to say
those differences but I also think theres a lot of really, really useful in restorative justice that is
useful and even transferrable. Both restorative justice and transformative justice is about a
collective process and bringing in community. Bringing in all the people who are impacted by
violence and not just the survivor and not just the people who directly witnessed it, for example.
I think with restorative justice, one of the amazing things is that weve had enough time, people
have had enough time doing restorative justice where theres folks who have been doing it for
25, 30 years. Im just talking specifically in this country. We could talk globally and thats a
whole other conversation.
I think theres a lot to learn there. I think restorative justice, most of how its being practiced in
this country is that they wont touch anything around sexual abuse or even domestic violence.
The moment that its explicitly said, they wont even touch it because its too complicated.
A lot of work theyve done around is murders or burglaries, its being incorporated in schools
now and being used around fights and conflicts between students. Things like that.
Anyway, definitely there are critiques and there are differences. Right now, its one of the other
viable options, other viable alternatives that we have other than the State. Its a little bit better. It
may not be the best, it may not be exactly what we want but theres where we are and theres
where we want to be. Theres a long way between there.

I think theres a lot to learn. A lot of skill set that theyve developed, restorative justice folks, I
think are really useful, you know? Whether its doing circle processes that involve survivors and
people who have been violent together. That is a skill set, in figuring out how to hold those kind
of spaces and how to prepare for those kinds of spaces. Those are huge amounts of skills that we
can totally use that are transferrable.
To me, its more about how do we work together? Of course, like anything, there are
restorative just that are probably closer to transformative justice and that are much farther away,
and that are everywhere between. I know that Ive met a bunch of great people who are doing
restorative justice work and I really respect a lot of the work that theyve done. I also think they
are also trying to figure out how do we do this better? What does this look like?
Nia: Yeah.
Transcribed by Luna Merbruja