PIRCHEI SHOSHANIM SEMICHA PROGRAM

Issur V'heter Vol. 2

Hilchos Basar V'chalav Shiur 4

Pirchei Shoshanim
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Questions on Shiurim:

Question:
If my sink is plugged up with pieces of meat and cheese can I run hot water from the
tap to unplug it?
Answer:
First of all for your question even to begin we have to say that irui is derech bishul.
Secondly your intention is not to cook, it is to unplug the sink. We will see in this shiur
that even though you do not have intention to cook, there is still a problem because
intention only applies by Shabbos but not by shaar issurim. Therefore unintentionally
cooking basar vchalav together is osser. However it is very likely that the meat and the
milk are far enough apart that the irui, which only has the ability to cook a kdai klipa
(the width of a peel) will not be able to spread the taste from one piece to the other.
Therefore it is not a psik raisha1 and it is muter.
Question:
Is cheese reui lchabed?
Answer:
The Yalkut Yosef quotes the Rashal that cheese is not reui lchabed because it is not
something that people eat to satisfy their hunger. Furthermore many people will not
eat cheese even under extreme circumstances.

If a person intended to do an action that which in itself is permissible but will definitely result in something
prohibited then even the permitted action becomes prohibited. The term psik raisha is a contracted form of
psik raisha vlo yamut? - If you cut off its head will it not die? In the same manner that it is impossible to
cut off the head of a living creature and it would not die, the two are inseparable, so too if it is impossible to
do the permissible act without doing the prohibited act then the permissible act becomes prohibited. Shabbos
75A, bottom of the page.
1

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Question:
Since cheese is not milk (milk is a liquid and cheese is a solid) perhaps there is no din of
cooking basar vchalav if the chalav is cheese?
Answer:
Just like mai chalav is muter because it is no longer in its pure milk form so too cheese
and butter are not called chalav imo - mothers milk, according to various poskim
brought down in the Yalkut Yosef, page 114. However he says in a very strong way not
to rely on those opinions.
Question:
If I ate a pizza do I have to wait 6 hours until I can eat a meat meal?
Answer:
The halacha is to wait 6 hours between hard cheese and meat. Hard cheese is cheese
that has aged 6 months and therefore most likely your pizza is not made from hard
cheese, otherwise your pizza would be expensive. Even if it were hard cheese the
Darchei Tshuva (89:43) brings down in the name of the Yad Yehuda that if it is cooked it
loses the attributes of hard cheese and now has the din of soft cheese. Therefore even if
your minhag is to wait 6 hours after yellow cheese (even if it hasnt aged for 6 months)
you can be makil after eating a pizza to eat basar within 6 hours.
Question:
If I cook meat in a milk pot is the meat osser mdoraisa or because there was no milk in
the pot, but only the taste of milk, perhaps the food is muter mdoraisa?
Answer:
The food is osser mdoraisa. Even though there is no milk that went into the meat it is
enough that the taste of milk goes into the meat because of the law of tam kikar.
Question:
If I ate meat and I do not know if 6 hours passed or not can I eat milk or do I have to
wait until I am sure that 6 hours passed?
Answer:
Normally anything you can mtakain (fix) you should try to mtakain, even in the case of a
din drabbanan, as we learned in the Taz. However in your case you do not have to wait
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because it is a case of sofek safaka: 1) Maybe you waited 6 hours and 2) Maybe the
halacha is that you do not have to wait 6 hours. As we see in this shiur a sofek safaka has
the strength to remove a sofek.
Question:
If I ate meat, and I am still within the 6 hour time period of waiting to eat milk, can I
sit with my friends in a pizza parlor while they eat their pizza?
Answer:
This is the question of the Badi Hashulchan.2 The source of the halacha is that food
which is forbidden to eat is also forbidden to osser mdrabbanan to smell because you
may come to eat the forbidden food. So based on that you should not sit with your
friends in the pizza parlor because you will be tempted by the smell to eat pizza.
However the Badi Hashulchan says that smelling issur can immediately bring about eating
issur so we are strict, but waiting 6 hours is a gezaira far removed from the issur doraisa
of cooking meat and milk together so we can be makil. Therefore enjoy the company
but wait to eat the pizza.

Page 50, Biurim.

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4
Shiur

Lesser forms of Cooking:

6 [Cooking meat and milk together by] smoking and or cooking in the hot springs
of Tiberius 13) ain lokin
(does not receive lashes for transgressing a lav) .
Even cooking meat in mai chalav 3 14) or chalav maisa 4 or chalav zachar 5 or
cooking blood and milk together is patur (exempt) 15) and eating [milk cooked
with blood] does not transgress the lav of basar vchalav.

RAMA 16) Chalav zachar is not called milk at all and if it fell into a pot of meat it would not be
osser. However [if] chalav maisa or 17) mai chalav [fell into a pot of meat] the food is osser because
they are comparable to milk. It is even osser to cook [chalav maisa or mai chalav with meat] lchatchila.
18) Yaish Omrim that it is osser to stoke the fire under the pot of a non-Jew because they use the

same pot sometimes to cook milk and sometimes to cook meat. Therefore by stoking the fire under the
non-Jews pot one may come to cook basar vchalav.
Furthermore one should not mix together the water that was used for washing milk dishes with water
that was used to wash meat dishes and then give it to a bahama because the water becomes 19) osser
bhanah.
And furthermore, the kli (container) that is used to make shampoo should not be used [for anything
else] because the aifur kira (the ashes on the stove) 20) that are used to make shampoo are mixed
with milk and meat.

The water that is left after the milk is separated.

Milk that comes out after the animal dies either on its own or through shechita. Baer Haitiv 12.

Milk from a male animal.

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Therefore it is osser to use the kdairot (pots) that are usually on the tanurim in the winter lodges
because sometimes milk and meat splash on them from the cooking going on in the tanur itself.

Bdeved we do not worry about the above dinim, 21) and furthermore even lchachila they are only a
chumra balma. One who is lenient will not lose.
7 Cooking an embryo in milk is chiav and eating them cooked together is chiav.
But cooking the placenta, skin, tendons, bones, ikari karnaim
[in milk]

or soft hooves

22) is patur (exempt from the Torah) and eating them is patur.

8 Yaish mi shomer (there is an opinion) that nisubai chalav (the liquid left over
after making cheese) 23) is not called mai chalav and is osser mdoraisa to [cook
with meat]. Mai chalav is made from the liquid (nisubai chalav) that is left over
after the cheese is made by then boiling that liquid (nisubai chalav) so that the
whey that will float to the top until all that is left is water. That water is called
mai chalav.

Smoked Meat
H A L A C H A

8 7 : 6

The Mechaber is a quote of the Rambam Hilchos Ma'acholos Assuros 9:6

The source of the Rambam is the Yerushalmi Talmud, Nedarim Perek 6 Halacha 1. The
Gemora asks if there is a din of basar vchalav that were cooked together by smoking. 9
The Magid Mishna sais that the same question is by cooking in the hot springs of
Tiberius. The question was left unanswered.
The Rambam says that in both cases ain lokin, meaning the severe punishment of lashes
does not apply. However the question remains whether or not there is an issur mdoraisa
(without the punishment of lashes) to cook basar vchalav in the hot spring or by
smoking.

The tanur in this case is most likely a big pot bellied stove that doubled as a heater for winter lodging.

The part of the horn that is found below the skin.

Even though soft hooves are somewhat comparable to basar.

First they were mixed together and then they were placed over smoke.

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According to the Magid Mishna since basar vchalav is an issur mdoraisa we have to be
machmir in these cases.10
The Pri Chodosh brought by the Biur Hagra says that this question is answered
because in the Yerushalmi Shabbos Perek 7 Halacha 2 it states that cooking
through smoking is ossur on Shabbos, so we can infer that the same thing is by
Basar V'chalav. The Aruch Hashulchan 87:25 says that you cannot compare the two.
(See the Gilyon Hashas on the Yerushalmi Shabbos that the reason smoking is osser
is because it is a tolda of Bishul and would therfore not apply by Basar V'chalav).
According to these opinions cooking through smoking would also be ossur b'hanah.
The Aruch Hashulchan quotes the Levush and infers from the Shach that smoking is
only ossur md'rabbanan and would therefore be muter b'hana, but he disagrees with
these opinions and holds that it is a safek d'oraisa. However the Chachmas Adom sais
that it is osser md'rabbanan and would therefore be muter b'hanah. Halacha lemasah
most Poskim hold that it is a sofek d'oraisa and would therefore be osser b'hanah.
The question of cooking blood (and milk) has been discussed at length in our melicha
shiurim. The Shach (15) and the Pri Magadim learn by from a diyuk (inference) that the
Mechaber holds that cooked blood is osser to eat mdoraisa. However the Kaf HaChaim and
the Yalkut Yosef hold that the Mechabers position is that eating cooked blood is an issur
mdrabbanan.
The Mechaber says that the din of cooking chalav zachar is ain lokin, inferring that it is
osser11 and the Rama writes that chalav zachar is not called milk at all, inferring that there is
no issur at all even mdrabbanan. The Mechaber was talking about chalav zachar of a bahama
and the Rama was talking about chalav zachar of a human. The Shach brings the Isser
V'heter that says that chalav zachar of a human is no worse then chalav isha and therefore
there is a problem of maris ayin.

10

Since the Gemora didnt come to a conclusion then we follow the law of: Sofek doraisa lchumra.

11

Either mdoraisa or md'rabbanan as we mentioned above.

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The Rama brought 4 cases:

1) Stoking a fire:
THE RAMA SAYS:

18) Yaish Omrim that it is osser to stoke the fire under the pot of a non-Jew because they use the same

pot to sometimes to cook milk and sometimes to cook meat. Therefore by stoking the fire under the nonJews pot one may come to cook basar vchalav.
R Akiva Eiger asks, Why should this be osser? 1: There is no intention to cook and 2:
it is not a psik raisha because maybe the non-Jew did not cook meat and milk in the pot
on the stove? He answers that only in the case of a sofek in the future12 we can be makil
in the din of psik raisha but in case of a sofek in the past, like our case, we are certainly
cooking13 but we do not know if there is milk and meat in the pot. Therefore it should
be osser to stoke the fire.
Furthermore R Akiva Eiger brings down a machlokes between the Aruch and Tosefos.
According to the Aruch even a psik raisha is muter if two conditions are present: 1) there
is no intention to do an improper action (aino mtkavain) and 2) there is no hanah from
the issur that is done. Therefore in our case it would be muter to stoke the fire because
there is no intention to cook the food in the pot and there is no benefit derived from
doing so. However Tosefos argues and says that mdrabbanan these heterim do not apply to
allow a psik raisha and by shaar issurim the din of psik raisha may be osser mdoraisa even
with the two conditions present (aino mtkaven and no hanah). So according to Tosefos
stoking the fire would be osser. As a further issur R Akiva Eiger says that according to
the Rosh even the Aruch holds that we are machmir in the case of shaar issurim.
At this point we should not be able to stoke the fire.

For example on Shabbos: in a case where we are not sure that dragging a medium sized bench will dig up
the ground, we can begin to drag the bench because we are not sure it will lead to a malacha. Therefore the
sofek is weak, because it exists in the future it is weak in the present.
12

We are certainly cooking but we are in sofek if there is issur in the pot. That sofek is strong. Since it is in the
past the sofek already exists in the world and we have to take it into consideration.
13

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However according to the Taz we do not worry about psik raisha if there are two
conditions present: 1) aino mtkaven and 2) maybe there is no issur here.14 Therefore
according to the Taz we can stoke the fire.

Stam Kli Aino Ben Yoma

Another heter for allowing stoking the fire is that stam kli aino ben yoma. This means that
most kalim havent been used within 24 hours (ben yoma within a day). After 24 hours
the food that was absorbed in the walls of the kli have spoiled. We learned that derech
bishul does not apply if the meat or milk has spoiled before they are cooked together.
Therefore if we can determine that the kli on the tanur is an aino ben yoma we can then
stoke the fire without a problem.
But how can we be sure? The halachic way of removing a sofek is to create a sofek safaka.15
According to the Rashba we can say that the pot has not been used within the last 24
hours and even if it was used maybe it was used only for water. According to the Tur
we can say that maybe the pot has not been used within the last 24 hours and even if it
was used maybe the food that was cooked in the pot is giving a bad taste to the food
being cooked now.16 However according to the Tur the sofek safaka only helps to matir
the food being cooked in the pot, but not the cooking itself. Therefore it would be a
problem for the Tur to stoke the fire but not for the Rashba.
2) Mixing milk and meat dishwater together.

The Shach (19) points out that the water must be rotchin (yad soled bo or hotter) in order
for there to be a problem.

The Taz does not worry about the past. For example one can close a cabinet on Shabbos even though he is
not sure if flies are in the cabinet. We do not worry about trapping.
14

15

We will learn more about this in Simon 110.

If issur food gives a bad taste to heter food it is called notan tam lifgam. It does not osser the heter food.
We will learn about this principle in later shiurim.
16

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3) The kli for making shampoo:

THE RAMA SAYS:

And furthermore, the kli (container) that is used to make shampoo should not be used [for anything
else] because the aifur kira (the ashes on the stove) 20) that are used to make shampoo are mixed
with milk and meat.
The Darchei Tshuva (87:93) says that the Rama is referring to ashes on the stove from
wood as opposed to meat ashes. Mixed with the ashes is basar and chalav that has spilled
and became mixed together. Since the meat and milk are mixed with ashes they are
lifgam (taste bad).17 But if the ashes were made of basar vchalav that was burned to ashes
it would be osser to use as a base for shampoo because the issur hanah applies to even
basar vchalav that became lifgam.
4) Kdairot:

If the kdairot are made of metal then lchatchila there is no problem because anything
that spills on them will burn up though the process of libun (kashering by burning)
since they are sitting on a hot stove.18
The Darchai Tshuva19 says that according to the safer Shaul ben Lavi only the second two
cases are a chumra balma and the first two cases are osser lchatchila. According to the
Chamudai Daniel all the cases are a chumra balma.
Lmaaseh all the four cases are a chumra balma.
Concerning the next the next two halachot I have nothing to add beyond what I believe the chabura can
easily understand on their own.

17

Simon 95:4, Taz 95:15.

18

Simon 92:5-7 Shach 21.

19

87:97

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Review Questions:
1) Is cooking basar vchalav together by smoking or in the hot springs of Tiberius
osser mdoraisa?
2) What are the reasons that it is osser to stoke the fire under the pot of a nonJew?
3) Why is it permitted?
4) Why is a stam kli aino ben yoma?
5) Why can I make shampoo from the ashes on the stove even though they are
mixed with milk and meat?
6) Why are we more makil by metal pots than other pots in the case of tanurim of
the winter lodges?

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