THE CONTROVERSY OF VALLADOLID [TRANSCRIPT]

La Controverse de Valladolid _1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzHQISjeOs)

A coproduction FR3 - The Seven BAKTI CLEA - RTBF
The Controversy of Valladolid
Based on a Spanish papal tribunal
Original screenplay and dialogues: Jean-Claude Carrire
1550, Valladolid, Spain
01:33 [Cardinal]: My dear brothers, receive the blessing of our Holy Father. In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus
Sancti.
[Congregation]: Amen.
[Cardinal]: Let us pray to God who grants us His light here. Oremus.
[Congregation prays in Latin]
[Whispering]
03:27 [Cardinal]: My death brothers, since, by the grace of God the Kingdom of Spain has discovered and
conquered the Indies of the West that some already call the New World. It has raised a great number of difficult
questions that nothing in the history of the world expected. One question here of the most importance never
received a clear and complete response. It is why we are here. This New World has inhabitants who have been
conquered and subjugated in the name of the true God. Yet for nearly thirty years rumors are widespread in
Europe saying that the natives of Mexico and the islands of New Spain have been very unjustly treated by the
Spanish conquerors. These rumors that the enemies of Spain - Holland, England, France - have exaggerated,
have reached His Holiness the Pope, who has proven strongly moved especially as this treatment was exercised
in the name of our sacred religion. Repeatedly the Holy Father has manifested his compassion for the
population of the new lands, but it seems His instructions have not always been respected by the laws and
regulations of the Crown. Today the Holy Father sent me to you with a precise mandate: to decide if these
natives are completed and veritable humans, Gods creatures, our brothers, in the descendants of Adam or if the
contrary, as has been claimed, they are to be a distinct category or even the subjects of the extent of the devil.
At the end of our debate the decision that I will take will be ipso facto, confirmed by the Holy Father, and will
therefore become irrevocable.
We are here together in Valladolid in this convent where Brother Gregorio has had the kindness to welcome us,
some witnesses and participants, and first of all the very illustrious Brother Bartolom de las Casas, who knows
the New World well and several times has taken the defense of these natives. Opposite we have Master
Seplveda himself. His philosophical works are very well known. His scholarship and the penetration of his
spirit will be valuable. If among you someone desires to speak, let us know by raising a hand. I hope that God
will assist us and by His grace we will maintain all conscience and dignity. Brother Bartolom, you have the
floor.
07:39 [De las Casas]: Eminence, our Lord Jesus said, I am the truth and the life. I will force myself to speak
the truth about those whom we are to take life, because it is the truth we are trying to destroy. Since the
discovery and the conquest of the Indies the Spanish have not ceased to enslave, torture, and massacre the

Indians. What I want to say is so atrocious that I do not know where to begin. There would be enough to fill
an enormous book.
[Cardinal]: Speak to your taste.
[De las Casas]: From the very first contact the Spanish have seemed animated to push by the terrible thirst for
gold. It is all that they acclaim. Gold, gold, bring us gold, to the point that the natives of the new lands were
saying but what do they do with all that gold? They must eat it. Everything is subordinated to gold,
everything. Also since the beginning, the unfortunate Indians are treated like animals deprived of reason. First
one is branded as slave with a hot iron with the name of their owner to the face. When he passes from one
owner to another, he is branded again and again. These marks accumulate on their faces, which becomes like
old paper. Subsequently they are thrown en masse in gold and silver mines and there die by the thousands. The
appalling stench released is worse than hell, black and wet. The shafts are flown over by carrion birds so
numerous, they mask the sun.
[Cardinal]: Speak also about massacres.
[De las Casas]: Yes. Eminence, it is by the millions they were exterminated. Yes, by the millions, like beasts to
the slaughterhouse.
[Cardinal]: By what processes?
[De las Casas]: In every way. Sometimes they are put on spits by groups of thirteen, put over dry straw and set
on fire, other times hands cut off then released in the forest, told to spread the letters.
[Cardinal]: What does that mean?
[De las Casas]: To carry the message. It is to show the other who we are.
[Cardinal]: Yes?
10:11 [Friar]: And why by groups of thirteen?
[De las Casas]: To honor Christ and the twelve Apostles. Yes! I speak the truth! The Lord has been honored
with all human horrors. Everything imaginable! Sometimes they hold children by the feet and crack their skulls
against rocks, or place them on a grill or drown them or they throw them to starving dogs that devour them like
hogs, taking bets on which disembowel a woman with a single stab!
[Cardinal]: Brother Bartolom, you are talking about the sad miseries of war that is common to all peoples, but
here
[De las Casas]: War? What war? These people were not at war. They came to us smiling, faces open, curious
to know, bearing fruits and gifts. And we brought to them death in the name of Christ.
11:23 [Friar]: Eminence, is this not blasphemy?
[Cardinal]: The holiness of this place authorizes us to hear all. Besides, its all known to God. Continue.
[De las Casas]: All that I saw, I saw being done in the name of Christ. I saw Spaniards take the fat of a living
Indian to grind on his own wounds. Alive. I saw it. I saw our soldiers cut off noses, ears, tongues, hands the

nipples of women and the penises of men, like cutting a tree, for fun, to distract themselves. I saw in Cuba in a
place called Caonao a troop of Spanish soldiers halt in the bed of a dry stream. They sharpened their swords on
stones, then they advanced to a village and said lets test the edges of our weapons. The first Spaniard drew his
sword, the others followed suit and stood, blindly, to disembowel the Indians who were so tranquil - all
massacred; blood everywhere.
Cardinal]: You were present?
[De las Casas]: I was their chaplain. I ran crazed everywhere. It was a spectacle of horror and terror, and I saw
it. Another time, I was a soldier laughing as he plunged his dagger into a childs guts and then this child
running away holding his innards, always in Cuba. They were getting ready to kill one of their chiefs without
any reason and burn him alive. Then a monk approached the man to talk about our faith. He asked him if he
wanted to go to heaven or to suffer in hell. The cacique said to him, will all Christians go to heaven? Yes,
said the monk, some certainly do. Then, said the cacique, I prefer to go to hell instead of being with such
cruel men.
I saw so many cruelties that no one would imagine. No words, no stories could describe what I saw. Eminence,
the Christians have lost their fear of God. They have forgotten who they are. Yes, millions, I did say millions.
In Cholula in Mexico and Tepeaca the entire population had their throats cut in the name of Saint James. And it
was easy because these men did not have any weapons like us, nor horses. Do you know, Eminence, in certain
places the Spanish use the blood of these men to water their fields? The captains, in the procession of one
expedition with unchained dogs said to the soldiers, cut off a chunk of thigh from that rascal and feed it to the
dogs, as if they were sides of mutton! In some camps there are shelves of human flesh! Thighs, breasts hung
on hooks! The Indians were fed Indian flesh. It was cheap!
La Controverse de Valladolid _2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6UtIWga1IE)
[De las Casas]: Some said the Spanish eat it too!
[Cardinal]: Hello! Hello! It is in human nature, Brother Bartolom, to speak much and think little. I let you
speak; I noticed your emotion, your vehemence; I listened well. But I must remind you that this is not the
question that concerns us. We should not decide on the cruelty of the Spanish. We must decide on the nature
and quality of these natives. Do you understand me?
[De las Casas]: Yes, I understand.
[Cardinal]: Thats why I am asking, you that know them, how are they?
[De las Casas]: I suppose that we will not retain the assumption that they are servants of the devil? Good.
[Cardinal]: I mention this legend only to show its excess. Satan has no frontier. It would be too easy to apply
limits. He is everywhere! And, always firstly, within us! Then how are they?
[De las Casas]: As Christopher Columbus himself said, the first who met them, I cannot believe that in the
world there are better men.
[Cardinal]: What do you mean?

[De las Casas]: They are beautiful, Eminence. They are peaceful and sweet like sheep with envy of the
property of others; generous, without tricks.
[Cardinal]: They always welcome you?
[De las Casas]: Always.
[Cardinal]: Without trickery? Without treachery?
[De las Casas]: With a total innocence. They are incapable of lying. I cannot say it better: they were the picture
of paradise before the fall.
[Cardinal]: Do they seem intelligent?
[De las Casas]: They are undoubtedly.
[Cardinal]: With our same intelligence?
[De las Casas]: Yes, without a doubt.
[Cardinal]: They appear sometimes very ignorant and very gullible. They were impressed by omens. The
Emperor of Mexico even wanted to kill himself.
[De las Casas]: Moctezuma? Yes, it was said. I was not there. An ancient belief predicted their great hero
would return from the east. Corts, a very skilled captain, who was your friend I believe, was aware of this
prophecy. He used it from the beginning but their eyes were opened and they quickly understood that the
Spaniards did not come from heaven. When Moctezuma met Corts the first time with magnificent gifts, he
told him, I am of flesh and blood like you.
[Cardinal]: Are they capable of Christian feelings?
[De las Casas]: Surely. They favorably welcome our faith. But what image do we render? What do they think
of a God that the Christians, the Christians who exterminate them, stand for right and good? Do you know what
a man entrusted with me one day?
[Cardinal]: Tell us.
[De las Casas]: He told me, Yes, I feel a little Christian because I can already lie a little.
[Cardinal]: Tell me now, how did they react to the atrocities of which you speak?
[De las Casas]: Eminence, I told you them. Their nature is so sweet and we strike so hard that they never found
the strength to resist; then they have been driven to despair. The mothers have killed their babies so that they
never become our slaves. We saw great numbers of children born dead because of certain herbs the mothers
take. Do you remember, Eminence, the strong words of Ecclesiastes?
[Cardinal]: Which verse?
[De las Casas]: It was a shock for me. By chance one day I came across it. The bread of the poor is their life.
The one who deprives them is a murderer. These creatures live without love of life. Moreover, men do not
approach their woman to avoid having children. Additionally, new diseases overwhelm them that we brought to

them by raping them so often. Yes, they have lost all desire to live, an entire nation dying in the name of
Christ. Soon there wont be a single one left.
[Cardinal]: So according to you, Brother Bartolom, they are creatures of God.
[De las Casas]: They are our neighbors.
[Cardinal]: They are redeemed by the blood of Christ?
[De las Casas]: Yes, Eminence, just like us.
La Controverse de Valladolid _3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4HGDB1JlU)
[Cardinal]: Professor, would you like join in now?
[Juan Gins de Seplveda]: If it pleases your Eminence. Brother Bartolom already quite young you have
been attracted by the New World?
[De las Casas]: I went there when I was 18 years old.
[Seplveda]: Didnt you receive some lands there to administer?
[De las Casas]: Yes. I managed them well, I believe.
[Seplveda]: Later, after your ordination, did you celebrate your first Mass in the New World?
[De las Casas]: Yes.
[Seplveda]: Once you became a member of the Church, didnt you try several times to found a colony,
gathering natives and Spaniards and making them work?
[De las Casas]: I tried, especially at Cuman.
[Seplveda]: You were in favor of a peaceful conquest. You wanted to establish the country of true peace.
[De las Casas]: Later, in Guatemala.
[Seplveda]: Is it not true it ended in bloodshed?
[De las Casas]: At Cuman, yes. My Spanish associates were rabid wolves.
[Seplveda]: Isnt it strange that the fault is always with the Spanish?
[De las Casas]: What do you mean? Strange?
[Seplveda]: I listened to you speak, I watched you, and one thing became clear to me that I suspected
according to your writing. From the outset these peoples fascinated you and we could even say seduced you.
Why? I do not know. But we can see that you speak with excess.
[De las Casas]: I speak of what I saw; excess in the facts, not in my words.
[Seplveda]: However, I would not teach you anything by telling you that some travelers, like you, went there,
accusing you of losing your mind.

[De las Casas]: If I lost my mind, Eminence, why did you ask me to come here? What am I doing here if I am
crazy?
[Seplveda]: No, you are not crazy! But self-error is from this point the truth. We all know; and something in
you is warped, blurred. It is deviated from the truth. These Indians of which you speak, you were blind to their
true nature.
[De las Casas]: For example?
[Seplveda]: You speak with insistence that they are as gentle as sheep, but if they are like sheep, then they are
not men! Who can say that man is gentle?
[De las Casas]: But Christ says it. He never ceased to say it. Turn the other cheek.
[Seplveda]: Yes, but he also says, I did not come to bring peace, but the sword. Christ likes this fight. He
loves this conquest! If not, why would he have allowed these massacres of innocents?
[De las Casas]: And why do you think he allowed that?
[Seplveda]: First, the Indians deserve their fate, because their sins and their idols are a constant offense to God.
The wars we conduct against them are just!
[De las Casas]: What sins are you talking about? Who is blurred here? Who is warped?
[Seplveda]: I ask you a question: this young boy you spoke of whom a soldier stabbed and held his innards in
his hands - you saw this?
[De las Casas]: With my eyes.
[Seplveda]: And what did you do on this occasion?
[De las Casas]: I grabbed him. I spoke quickly about God and Christ as I could. I baptized him et he died in
my arms.
[Seplveda]: The salvation of his soul seemed important to you?
[De las Casas]: Obviously! I could save nothing else.
[Seplveda]: Eminence, I would first retain this point: the salvation of the soul.
04:31 [Cardinal]: You suppose, then, that they have souls?
[Seplveda]: I will return later this point. Before that, I must recall a number of facts that the emotion of my
adversary may have masked.
[Cardinal]: We are listening.
[Seplveda]: I pose first the general question: is it not established is it not perfectly certain, that all the
people of the Earth without exception were created to be Christian one day?
[Cardinal]: Yes, this truth was established.

[Seplveda]: And we must do everything to lead them to the true faith?

[Cardinal]: This cannot be disputed.
[Seplveda]: All human beings without exception are predestined. They are all part of the mystical body of
Christ because the Christian religion is the universal way. Divine mercy was granted to all nations to renounce
infidelity. Is this not true?
[Cardinal]: It is exactly true. Our Franciscan brothers even believe that Gods reign on Earth is near and that
heavenly happiness will soon manifest itself.
[Friar]: Yes, as soon as the infidels are converted. We are very convinced. Our victory over the Moors was the
first proof of the good grace of God. The ease with which the new lands were conquered is another sign, very
clear.
[De las Casas]: And how could the Indians believe that we act in the name of God? Everywhere they are
calling us yars, meaning demons! For them we come from hell, led by the Devil.
[Cardinal]: You believe this? Brother Bartolom, you believe very sincerely that the Spanish are demons?
[De las Casas]: Yes, Eminence, something demonic has seized the conquerors. They became demons, yes, I
believe.
[Cardinal]: Demons.
[De las Casas]: Yes, as if the faith that I bring to them is disguised, deformed. What relationship does the
Gospel have with bombs? How can I preach? Instead of convincing them, because of the blood we brought, we
thwart the designs of God.
[Cardinal]: Since you say that the natives are similar to us, then they are also demons?
[De las Casas]: Pardon me, Eminence, I cannot entertain this argument. It is poorly articulated.
[Cardinal]: Well then, rearticulate it.
[De las Casas]: Both are human but the thirst for gold transforms us into demons.
[Cardinal]: Continue, professor.
[Seplveda]: All the nations on Earth are destined to be Christian and to be touched by the words of Christ. Ah,
here we discover that an unknown population that had never heard about our Lord, of redemption, of the
Cross
[De las Casas]: Ah, but yes! We found evidence of crosses.
[Seplveda]: No! No! Nothing serious! You vainly endeavored to prove that this continent had been visited by
the Apostles. This is false! Never were the words of Christ brought to these lands. What does that mean?
It means that they are not Gods creatures, recognized by God, and I am going to prove it. First, as it was said,
by the extreme ease of the action. 300 Spaniards subjugated a strong empire of 20 million inhabitants! And we
do not see it as the hand of God? No feat in history can be compared to this conquest. Even disease was on our

side. The small pox epidemic was the work of God to clear out the road! The idolaters died like flies because
God desired to eliminate them! Today, forced to destroy their temples in Mexico, they fall manifold each day,
crushed by the rocks. How can one not see a divine punishment? The same for the mines; I know well that
sometimes it may appear like the cruelty of humans. But how to explain that the natives obey the Spaniards so
easily? Are they not already folded by the hand of God? And as though thrown into hell?
[Friar]: It was also said that in the mines they die victim of their libertinage, of sodomite practice.
[De las Casas]: But what am I hearing, libertinage in the mines? Am I sleeping or I am awake!
[Cardinal]: Brother Bartolom.
[De las Casas]: Eminence, shall I laugh or cry at what was said?
[Cardinal]: Shut up in any case.
[De las Casas]: Shut up? I cannot! You claim to know the signs of God everywhere! What does that mean? It
tells you that to see only the signs which are good for us obviously puts God on our side, saying God is my
interest! This justifies my crimes!
[Cardinal]: This time youve gone too far!
[Man outside]: Whoa! Whoa!
[Cardinal]: No one here may question the choice of God! I categorically ask you to keep quiet. Go ahead,
professor.
La Controverse de Valladolid _4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O1giwoqtXk)
[Seplveda]: To liken the Spanish to demons - what aberration, what madness. The natives themselves
recognized that the conquerors were sent by God. They were sure.
To make the Indians innocent - yet how to follow you? They sacrificed to their idols thousands, tens of
thousands of victims - eighty thousand for the consecration of the grand temple of Mexico!
[De las Casas]: This number hasnt been proven.
[Seplveda]: But it is the most barbarian, the bloodiest of people. Sodomites, yes! And cannibals. You
forgot to mention this. It is said their stomachs are full of human flesh. They killed Spaniards and ate them.
Some, to dance, are coated with the skins of Christians. And you speak of paradise. You say that they cannot
lie, yet they tricked you continuously. As soon as people can speak, they can lie. These Indians are ferocious
savages! Not only is it right, but it is necessary, to submit their bodies to slavery and their spirits to our true
religion. Even assuming the absurd, assuming that they are innocent, would not our war be justified, a war to
protect innocents from their tyrannical leaders? Leaders who put to death their own men to devour?
[Cardinal]: Professor, I reiterate it, we are not here to talk about war. These conquests are things of the past.
We are here to decide the nature of the Indians, if they have a soul like ours, if they can profess eternal life.
Give me your view.
[Seplveda]: Aristotle said it very clearly: certain human species are made to rule and dominate others.

[Cardinal]: In your view is the case here?

[Seplveda]: Yes, Eminence. They are slaves by nature.
[Cardinal]: This assertion demands evidence.
[Seplveda]: They ignore the use of metal, of firearms, and the wheel. They carry their burdens on their backs
like beasts during long journeys. Their food is detestable, similar to that of animals. They paint their bodies
vulgarly and worship dreadful idols. I am not returning to human sacrifices. I add that they are called stupid
like our children or our idiots. They marry too frequently. They are unaware of the nature of money and are
ignorant of the value of things. They exchange broken glass barrels against gold.
[De las Casas]: Oh well. Because they do not worship gold and money to the point of sacrificing body and soul,
is it a reason to treat them like beasts? Is it not rather the opposite?
[Cardinal]: Brother Bartolom, you will have words later. Nothing will remain in the shadows. For the time
being remain silent. Professor, according to you the possession and usage of firearms would be proof of divine
protection?
[Seplveda]: A very evident proof.
[Cardinal]: However, the Moors, they possess firearms. They use them very well against us.
[Seplveda]: They copied theirs from ours.
[Cardinal]: Another thing: you report the bloody sacrifices they offer to their gods.
[Seplveda]: Yes, cruel gods, horrible, in the same image of these people.
[Cardinal]: It is indeed a demonic horror, we are in agreement. But if they are not human beings at the same
level as us, if they are close to animals, can we blame them for these sacrifices? See what I mean?
[Seplveda]: I recognize the subtlety of Your Eminence.
[Cardinal]: We can blame them for human sacrifices only if they are human.
[Seplveda]: Eminence, I say, for the moment, that their ignorance and naivet are without measure.
[De las Casas]: And us? Were we not nave and ignorant? Did we not have sirens and amazons, men with a
head in their chests, pygmies wrapping themselves in their ears? Eminence, the world is full of dreams and
rumors. This continent was unknown to us. It grew up nearly alone for thousands of years. The encounter
stupefied everyone.
[Seplveda]: Because nothing was similar. Even the animals, even the trees were different species. They had
neither oxen nor sheep. Why, in two such different worlds, should the human condition alone be the same?
Eminence, all indicates that God designed them for our power. You should also know that they are unable to
understand the simplest things, like the Redemption of Christ or the pardon of confession. They do not have
any activity of the soul, no idea of art.

10

[De las Casas]: I cannot admit to that. No activity of the soul! At this very moment in Mexico the
Franciscans opened a college, is it not true?
[Friar]: It is true.
[De las Casas]: In college the sons of the Aztec princes receive our education, they have the same arrangements
and same results as the Spanish, is it not true?
[Friar]: It is true. Some even make Latin verse.
[Seplveda]: You said the sons of princes.
[De las Casas]: And their architecture, before we destroyed all their cities? Corts himself wrote to the King of
Spain that he never saw anything so beautiful in these lands. He said exactly, nothing is comparable in Spain,
the most beautiful things in the world. And what about this sentence?: Some of us asked if what we see is
but a dream. A dream.
[Seplveda]: The conqueror in need of power cannot belittle his conquest.
[De las Casas]: And their irrigation system and their writing and their arithmetic and their drawings and their
knowledge of the sky? Their calendar that is more precise than ours. How have barbarians without God
achieved so much? And their societal organization, their zoos? Nothing similar in Europe, absolutely nothing.
It was their war itself that was fair.
[Seplveda]: Eminence, I believe that you have never traveled to the New Indies?
[Cardinal]: No, I am a poor sailor.
[Seplveda]: In order to give you an idea of their art, I brought one of their idols sculpted from stone. Can I
show you?
[Cardinal]: Now?
[Seplveda]: Since we are talking about it.
La Controverse de Valladolid _5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6YQg-bmb1M)
[Seplveda]: Stop. Remove the cover. It is one of their gods who is called the plumed serpent - Quetzalcatl.
[Cardinal]: And they worship that?
[Friar]: Yes, in all their temples.
[Seplveda]: Temples that emit the vile stench of a slaughterhouse. These are the monsters before which they
kneel, for whom their priests, if one can use this word, open the chest of living men with a stone knife and
plunge their hands to extract their bleeding hearts.
[Cardinal]: It is really ugly.
[Friar]: It is dreadful. It is truly repulsive.
[Seplveda]: How to compare these stones to Italian masterpieces, or to Berruguete?

11

[Cardinal]: And they think this is a beautiful sculpture?

[De las Casas]: Eminence, this is just an example, a fragment. You must see the whole. They also make
frescoes, fabrics, terracotta figurines. They shape hard stones. We cannot compare the incomparable. They
have true artists with birds feathers, for example.
[Cardinal]: Yes, we shall stop with feathers, Brother Bartolom. You are very heated. You need some rest.
Myself, I need to reflect. We will resume the dispute tomorrow morning.
End of the first day of the debate
02:29 [Friar]: Who are you? What are you doing here? What are you doing here! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!
What are you doing in this monastery?
[Conquistador]: We come from the New Land, from Mexico. We live there. We heard about this debate, about
this meeting.
[Cardinal]: Do you have farms over there? Do you operate them?
[Conquistador]: Yes, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: Mines, also?
[Conquistador]: Yes, some mines.
[Cardinal]: You arrived from there directly?
[Conquistador]: We disembarked three days ago.
[Cardinal]: Come to see me near complete.
[Friar]: But what is that? What is it?
[Cardinal]: Its nothing. Its mine. Dont worry about that.
I suppose youll be worried over your holdings, over your income? Is that why are you here? It is normal. It is
human. If God put gold in the Earth, he meant for us to find it and use it. But, do not think that Rome is not
informed of what is happening there. We have sent secret emissaries. We have accurate reports.
[Conquistador]: Eminence, our situation is not easy. It took hard effort to cultivate the land. The country is
rough and hostile.
[Friar]: I have a brother who died there.
[Conquistador]: And the Indians hate working for us. They prefer even to die, it is true. But the life of man is
nothing to them.
[Conquistador 2]: They kill themselves to pass the time.
[Cardinal]: I am not sure that when one is dead time passes more quickly.

12

[Conquistador]: We do what we can for them. We look after them, we show them our tools, we teach them
our language. But naturally, we are worried if our conditions will change, if what was told to us is not true
anymore.
[Cardinal]: Are you good Christians?
[Conquistador]: Certainly, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: You go to confession? You receive Communion?
[Conquistador]: Each week, Eminence.
[Conquistador 2]: We will soon have a bishop in our province.
[Cardinal]: Then trust in the Church. It is our mother to all. No matter what the Church decides, it is right,
always right. Therefore, you must show your obedience. You may leave. Tomorrow, if you wish, you can
attend the controversy.
[Friar]: Is it not prudent?
[Cardinal]: God speaks through many voices.
[Friar]: Would you like something else?
[Cardinal]: No, it is very good. Good night.
[Friar]: Sleep in pace, Eminence.
The second day of the debate begins
07:23 [Cardinal]: Let the light of the Lord be with us today, as yesterday.
[Congregation]: Amen.
[Cardinal]: Yesterday, Professor Seplveda gratified us with lovely theater by producing his plumed serpent.
He obtained his effect. Today, it is my turn to present to you my surprise. I asked myself what would be the
best means to decide in conscience and I finally chose to bring here, to Spain, some specimens of this Indian
species. It seemed to me that having them here will be easier for us to examine them at length and to see if they
are or are not like us. Let them in.
[De las Casas]: Eminence, you sent a mission there?
[Cardinal]: Yes, it took months.
08:41 [Four Native Americans, from Mexico, are brought into the room]
[Cardinal] Apparently, we have a man alone who has been in Spain for some time now. He is a kind of acrobat,
I believe. And then, a family: the father, the mother, a child. Their name is too complicated. I cannot read it.
But that is not important. They arrive from Mexico. We are going to examine them without bias. Brother
Emiliano, who learned their language, will serve us as interpreter. To save time I asked for a doctors report on

13

their physical constitution that is in all points similar to ours except for one difference. The men have no
beards and nearly no body hair.
[Friar]: What is that an indication of?
La Controverse de Valladolid _6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oJhiouOG6w)
[Cardinal] I asked myself. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says a man created in Gods image must
necessarily have a beard. Does someone know of a sentence? I would to settle one point: is it sure that their
females can be impregnated by Spaniards?
[De las Casas]: Yes, it is of course. It is of course.
[Cardinal]: This case has occurred?
[De las Casas]: Often, Eminence. Thousands of women have been raped.
[Cardinal]: And impregnated?
[De las Casas]: Naturally, many of them.
[Cardinal]: I pose this question because it is said that chimpanzee females in Africa were made pregnant by the
Portuguese. It turned out to be a pure invention. You confirm the fact?
[Conquistador]: Yes, yes, Eminence, without doubt.
[Cardinal]: The children born from these unions are viable and well-formed?
[Conquistador]: Without exception, yes, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: I thank you.
[De las Casas]: Before we do anything, Eminence, these men and this woman are cold. They come from a
warmer country than ours and they are sensitive to the cold like us. Look how they tremble. They are sick.
Most of those we brought back have died, encouraging the belief that they were weaker than us, and so God
struck them down.
[Cardinal]: Blankets.
[De las Casas speaks Nahuatl]
[Cardinal]: You speak their language?
[De las Casas]: Hardly a hundred words.
[Cardinal]: Do you know them?
[De las Casas]: No, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: By their clothes what place did they hold in their society?
[De las Casas]: It is hard to say. They have put on their festival costumes. More and more they dress like us.

14

[Seplveda]: Because they prefer our clothes?

[De las Casas]: Because they are forced to.
[Cardinal]: Go near them. Ask them who they are, this one especially. Yes, this one, there. And if it is certain
you wish to examine them more closely, please do so.
[Nahuatl language spoken]
[Brother Emiliano]: He says hes the son of an employee of the emperors register. His parents are dead. He
works today for the Spanish in Mexico as mason.
[Cardinal]: Has he heard of the true faith? Does he believe in God? Ask him.
[Emiliano speaks to mason in Nahuatl]
[Emiliano]: Eminence, he says that he remains faithful to his ancestors gods.
[Cardinal]: To this horror?
[Emiliano]: Yes, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: Why does he persist in this absurdity? Has anyone explained to him about the miracles?
[Emiliano]: Very often, Eminence, we have even argued.
[Cardinal]: Has anyone spoken of the Blessed Virgin?
[Emiliano]: Of course they are interested but
[Cardinal]: Someone bring iron tools, a big hammer. Go, go. What is their argument?
[Emiliano]: They say, it is the belief of our fathers. We have always worshipped these gods. We do not want
to the ancient way of life destroyed.
[Cardinal]: Have they been told that these gods cannot protect them? That their religion is crazy and powerless
before ours?
[Emiliano]: We told it to them.
[Cardinal]: And what response did they find?
[Emiliano]: Their defeat troubled them. Our preaching confuses, puzzles them. They thought that nothing was
to change.
[De las Casas]: They say the word of the gods has become obscure and we do not understand them anymore.
[Emiliano]: Yes, our gods have chosen silence. Who will return to us the words? And also asked, nothing
will be as before? Will we disappear forever?
[Seplveda]: They are too thick to see the truth.
[De las Casas]: But no, many have converted.

15

[Seplveda]: The reports that I have seen put these conversions in doubt, and Brother Emiliano himself
[De las Casas interjects]: This attachment to their belief is natural.
[Seplveda]: Eminence.
[De las Casas]: All people are attached to their thoughts.
[Seplveda]: Eminence.
[De las Casas]: They are curious about us, as I said. They look at us like we look at them. They listen to us.
They understand us. Many of them follow us, but they were alone
[Seplveda]: Excellence.
[De las Casas]: for a very long time, isolated.
[Cardinal]: A moment, a moment. Yes?
[Seplveda]: I would like to say to Brother Bartolom one thing, very simple.
[Cardinal]: Tell him simply.
[Seplveda]: Of two things, one can be certain: either they are like us - God created them in his image and
redeemed them by the blood of his son - in this case they cannot be allowed to deny the truth, or they are
another species.
[Cardinal]: What is your sincere feeling, Professor?
[Seplveda]: They are from another category and born to be dominated, as form dominates matter, as the soul
dominates the body, as man dominates animal, as husband dominates wife, and the father, the son. It is a
natural order, established for the good of all. He who is born as slave, if he remains without master, he is lost,
isolated, erased from the Earth.
[De las Casas]: All of that is just a play on words. Do not eat this sophistry here! We cannot decide their nature
by the finesse of logic.
[Seplveda]: I understand why logic bothers you because you constantly speak in contradiction. You repeat
that they are gentle and humble and that the Spanish are cruel monsters and you say at the same time that they
are like us. We see that they reject our faith. But if Christ wanted it, wouldnt they be Christians? Is it not
true? Is it not true! The fact that they reject the Gospel is proof of this evil that I speak of. They were placed
by birth outside of divine grace. They do not reject Christ. It is Christ who does not want them in His kingdom.
6:02 Baby crying
[Cardinal]: Cover them, cover them.
[Emiliano speaking Nahuatl]
[Cardinal]: You, yes you. [to a Friar] Draw near. Hit their idol and observe how they react. Go! Strike! Do
not fear!

16

[De las Casas]: Strike, they are accustomed.

[Seplveda]: You saw? He almost intervened. Yes, but his wife withheld him.
[Cardinal]: What does that prove?
[De las Casas]: It proves that they can think, to weigh the pros and cons.
[Friar]: Do they feel pain?
[De las Casas]: Pain? Do you want to check here, in a monastery? Yes, they suffer like us and cry out when
struck.
[Friar]: Yes, but what about mental anguish? Can they be melancholic?
[De las Casas]: But yes, I said it to you. They have every reason to be sad.
[Friar]: Do they feel homesick? Do they understand eternal damnation?
[De las Casas]: Yes, they have a sort of hell.
[Friar]: Do they have a paradise?
[De las Casas ]: Yes, they live after death and they have a notion of the perfect soul.
[Baby screaming]
[Friars]: Do they believe in the forgiveness of sin? Do they believe in the resurrection of the body? Do they
remember past things? Do they have love for their gods? Do they believe in the Immaculate Conception? Do
they practice prayer? Do they believe in purgatory? Do they believe in the Holy Sacraments? Do they believe
in the Last Judgment?
[Baby screaming]
La Controverse de Valladolid _7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv-OFlfVcZg)
[Cardinal]: You, yes you there [to the Conquistador]. Come. Approach them both. Grab the child. Grab the
child and threaten him as if you were to kill him. We will see then
[Emiliano speaks Nahuatl]
[Cardinal]: No! Dont speak to them! Get clear! And you, grab the child! Threaten him! Go!
[De las Casas]: No, Eminence! Dont do this!
[Cardinal]: Grab the infant, I say!
[Baby screaming. The young man wants to protect the child. He is hit by the Conquistador. Conquistador
pretends he is going to harm the baby. The mother yells in Nahuatl. Tries to protect the baby]
[Cardinal]: It is over now. Stop, stop. Put your sword in its sheath. Talk to them now, reassure them. Tell
them it was a mistake, a game, whatever you think of.

17

[De las Casas]: Eminence, we must stop this examination. It is a cruel and pointless exercise. The have the
same heart as us, do you not see?
[Seplveda]: Animals also defend their young, especially the females. It is a law of nature. The two males did
not demonstrate great bravery. One of them didnt even show the slightest movement.
[De las Casas]: It is not his child.
[Seplveda]: Precisely! They have no fraternity, no social bonds. They go about their business like barbarians
in a virgin forest.
[De las Casas]: But this one is already corrupted. He has experienced wine. He has been taught to beg for
money, to lie, to smile to all, concerning the chores of the dog. The others are lost. They cannot understand
where they are. That is what we want to know.
[Seplveda]: You are right, they cannot understand.
[De las Casas]: Imagine yourself in an unknown building subjected to strange judgment amid feathered priests.
Could you understand? Could you understand that it was being decided whether or not you are a man? Often
the Spanish welcome them with smiling then stab their swords through their bodies. My God, so often.
[Emiliano speaking Nahuatl]
[Cardinal]: He is indeed an acrobat?
[Priest]: Yes, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: Which trick does he do?
[Priest]: He is a juggler, I believe.
[Cardinal]: We need a moment of recreation. Tell him we are watching him.
[Emiliano speaks Nahuatl] [The Mexican man acts for the congregation]
[Seplveda]: They are skillful with their feet, like monkeys.
[Priest]: The clowns have arrived, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: Ah, that they are, that they are. Yes, I asked to have come here some court clowns. Its said that the
faculty to laugh belongs only to man. We shall then see if your protected Indians have a sense of humor.
[De las Casas]: Eminence, look. They are not disposed to laugh.
[Seplveda]: But laughter is not prepared. It is spontaneous. I find the idea excellent.
[Cardinal]: Leave.
[Priest]: Give them room, the square. Hurry up.
04:35 [Court announcer]: Make way for His Majesty! Make way for the kings justice! Room!

18

[Court announcer]: Go quickly! Bring the seat of His Majesty! Quickly! Quickly!
[King clown]: Bring the first robber.
What did you steal?
[Robber]: Nothing, Majesty!
[King]: Mm. You must have stolen something.
[Robber]: No.
[King]: If not, you would not be a robber. Mm. What have you stolen? What have you stolen?
[Robber]: I beg Your Majesty, I beg you!
[King clown]: A moment.
[King clown]: I hit him. I must confess. [Latin]: Mea culpa (My fault, my fault, my greatest fault).
[Monk clown]: For penance.
[De las Casas]: Eminence, I beg you to stop this masquerade, for the respect of the sacraments.
[Cardinal]: The clowns have all the right, Brother Bartolom.
[De las Casas]: But this is not a farce. We speak of these people who suffer and die; a real nation.
[Seplveda]: What bothers you is that your Indians did not laugh. Their lips did not move.
[De las Casas]: But how can they laugh? A robber? They do not understand this word. They do not know
confession.
[Seplveda]: They did not learn from your teaching. They are incapable of learning. They are unmoved by our
mysterys beauties.
[De las Casas]: But no! I have told you, no. They are sensitive like us. They know love and fear, the most
subtle emotions. But to see them, to really see them, we must look at them with other eyes or we will never see
them as they are. Look at them like a mirror in which we seek our own face, a face that you have forgotten.
[Seplveda]: In this mirror can you see yourself?
[De las Casas]: At any moment.
[Seplveda]: I said it yesterday: they have confused your spirit.
[De las Casas]: But look sincerely at them once and for all! Dispense with your rhetoric! Get out of your
papers! And look at them! Look at them with human eyes!
[Cardinal]: Brother Bartolom! Brother Bartolom!
[De las Casas]: Eminence! Who is on trial here - the murderer or the victim? [Continues angrily]

19

[Cardinal]: Brother Bartolom! Stop!

08:04 [The natives from Mexico laugh at this scene]
[De las Casas]: Behold, they are laughing. This time they laughed. My pardon, Eminence, but this time they
laughed.
[Seplveda]: Who saw them laugh? Who else?
[Friar]: Yes, I saw them. They laughed.
[Emiliano]: They laughed, its true. They laughed.
[Seplveda: Pose the question, ask them if they laughed.
[Emiliano speaks Nahuatl]
[Seplveda]: They dont even understand the question.
[De las Casas]: They understand very well. I know them. But they fear that we will punish them for laughing.
They are afraid of us. We have lost their trust. We have frightened them.
[Cardinal]: Send the clowns away. Thats enough. Get out, out!
The time is short now. I must make a decision this afternoon before going to Rome. Brother Bartolom,
summarize your arguments in a few sentences. Do not go over the massacres.
[De las Casas]: Whether they are men like me, I cannot doubt. They are my Indian brothers and I recognize
myself in them. I did not prepare any theatrical coup. But when I see them, when I look at them, I hear the
screams of shed blood. All these question on their lips: Why are you killing me?
La Controverse de Valladolid _8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHKVroCfkco)
[De las Casas] Why do you burn me with my temples, with my books? Why do you butcher my children? The
response is always they sacrifice men to their gods, and it is true. Yes, it is true. But lets look at history
ourselves. Abraham was going to sacrifice his son to God, and it is because he thought that God would
appreciate his sacrifice. Our God, the true God, didnt always refuse a sacrifice of human life. He even gave
his son in sacrifice.
[Cardinal]: The comparison is very excessive.
[De las Casas]: Eminence, the sacrifice gives to God proof of our adoration. These men, who have not been
illuminated by the true faith and that blindly follow natural law, offer to their false gods all they hold most
precious: their lives, their blood.
[Seplveda]: The argument is suspicious. It puts in parallel a supposition and a proven fact. It is unsustainable.
[Cardinal]: Professor, it is up to me to judge. Do not intervene.

20

[De las Casas]: All the ways to annihilate customs we call barbaric have made us even more barbaric. How
would you understand that? We have told them do not kill your fellow man under any pretext, and then we kill
them!
[Cardinal]: Supposing they are like us because if we believe Aristotle
[De las Casas]: The reign of Aristotle is abolished. Aristotle is a pagan who burns in hell! Today, we speak the
name of Christ. The word of Aristotle was a terrible error tyrannical infernal. All Christian philosophy
condemns him. What do we read in each page of the Gospels? That all men are alike and that I should treat
others as I would like to be treated. Spaniards sprang like wolves among sheep but Christ said the opposite: I
send you as sheep among wolves. Do you want to hear St. Paul, to hear him truly? Listen to the apostle:
There is neither Jew, nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free man; there is neither male nor female. All are
one in front of Jesus Christ. All one. It is in their hearts that we must break their idols, in their hearts only.
But how will they be both Christians and slaves? How?
[Cardinal]: What do you propose, Brother Bartolom?
[De las Casas]: I learned one thing: it is that truth advances by itself, fragile, always attacked by thousands of
enemies. Lies, to the contrary, have lots of help. We must return the Indians their liberty first because they are
free by nature. The Spanish must withdraw from the new lands. If not, Spain will be cursed and struck down
by God.
[Seplveda]: No! It is precisely the opposite.
[Cardinal]: How so the opposite?
[Seplveda]: One will praise Spain for having rid the Earth of a bloodthirsty and cursed species; for having
brought some to the true God; for having taught them what we know; and above all, one will acknowledge our
efforts to reveal the truth. Our meeting here, our discussion, has no other examples in the history of nations. It
will be for all the glory of Spain.
[Cardinal]: You really think that?
[Seplveda]: Yes, I believe it! I believe firmly. The question is not to abandon the Indies. We know well that
it is a dream and that we will always stay there. The question is one which arises to all philosophers: what
should we and what can we do? You said it yourself: we must convert them all to Christians. [Latin] Compel
them to enter, said St. Luke. Force them to enter - without this, no good in this life, no salvation in the other.
How to convert them? In how much time? At what price? It is the second part of the question and on this
point, Brother Bartolom, we differ. You say, Christian and slave, no, the two terms are mutually exclusive to
each another. And I say why not? For some time in any case, awaiting a general conversion because that is
what matters. You say also the wars that we have undertaken are not just, and I say the just war is the one that
leads to justice. Which is the supreme good? You speak by St. Paul, I respond to you by St. Augustine: The
loss of a single unbaptized soul, said St. Augustine, is a greater misfortune than the death of countless
victims, even innocent. The supreme good is the salvation of the soul. That is why we must so ardently
convert them because otherwise their souls are lost and nothing in this world or any other is more precious than
their souls.
[Emiliano]: You admit then that they have a soul?

21

[Seplveda]: I desire to be well understood. I am saying that they do not have a soul like ours, of the same
quality; far from it. And we dont have any reason to treat them like ourselves. But in case I am mistaken, I
recognize it is possible, in case Aristotle is mistaken. If their soul is similar to ours, then I say that a soul is the
most precious pearl of Creation and that we must save it at all costs. What is better - an earthly life without
glory in error and sin followed by an eternity of suffering, or else a shorter life, harder perhaps, and quickly
struck by death but followed by an eternity of light near the true victorious God? Is there anyone here who does
not know the right answer?
[Cardinal]: Are you finished?
[Seplveda]: Yes, Eminence.
La Controverse de Valladolid _9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceks_kt0i9Y)
[Cardinal]: Who still wishes to speak? You, maybe?
[Friar]: No, everything has been said it seems.
[Cardinal]: No one.
[Conquistador]: Can I say something?
[Cardinal]: Approach, certainly.
[Conquistador]: I do not speak very well. I have not learned, but what I have to say everyone here should know.
[Cardinal]: We are listening.
[Conquistador]: We came, my friend and I [cut off from video] to discuss our settlements there, of our life. You
have to work with them, one has no choice. They are dirty and lazy. They are thieves. They dont have
speech.
[De las Casas]: And why should they break their backs for you?
[Cardinal]: Brother Bartolom, you have spoken enough. Listen to the others.
[Conquistador]: It is necessary in any case to know one thing - if we must pay them, treat them like Christians,
accord them laws, take care of them - that will cost a lot of money. A lot! This is not the place to talk about
money here, but
[Cardinal]: Go ahead, continue.
[Conquistador]: And this money will have to be extracted from Crown revenue and also Church revenue. That
is clear. It cannot be done otherwise. This had to be said.
[Cardinal]: In which proportions?
[Conquistador]: In enormous proportions, enormous. The whole system will have to be changed from top to
bottom. Spain and the Church would have to send money there instead of receiving it. Huh?
[Conquistador 2]: It is sure, much money.

22

[Cardinal]: You, who know them well, tell me: do you think they have a soul?
[Conquistador]: A soul? I dont know. What I do know is that mine refuse to believe in the miracles of Christ.
They would like me to do miracles, me, as I cannot. In addition they do not have recognition for what we
taught them.
[De las Casas]: Taught? But taught what? Torture? Smallpox?
[Cardinal]: Brother Bartolom, once more.
[Conquistador]: We didnt teach them torture. They already knew. We gave them tools, clothing, books.
Besides, before they were slaves, and we freed them. But this liberty, they are not used to. They abuse it. They
flee and they hide to avoid work. They are weak of heart and die of slight diseases. If we have to pay them, it
would be better to give up the Indies to the benefit of commerce and to the salvation of their souls. This had to
be said.
[Cardinal]: You do not speak so badly.
[Conquistador]: I speak frankly, Eminence.
[Cardinal]: We are going to stop here. I will give my decision this afternoon.
[Knocking on door]
[Cardinal]: Yes, enter.
[Friar]: Eminence, it is from the King. You do not want to read it?
[Cardinal]: I already know what the Kind wishes to say to me. Others have told me.
My decision is made. As I told you, it will be confirmed by His Holiness and by the whole Church. The people
of the new lands, which are called the Indies, are born from Adam and Eve, like us. They enjoy, like us, a spirit
and an immortal soul. They have been redeemed by the blood of Christ. They are therefore our brothers. They
must be treated with the greatest humanity and justice because they are human beings. This decision will be
made public and proclaimed through every church of the Old and New Worlds.
[Seplveda]: Eminence, pardon me. Of course I respect your choice but did you really examine the
repercussions of these words?
[Cardinal]: Do you suspect me of levity?
[Seplveda]: Of course not! But you must know that you condemn to bankruptcy all the Spanish
establishments!
[Cardinal]: Professor, did I give the impression of having not reflected?
[Seplveda]: Certainly not.
[Cardinal]: Do you believe that I didnt weigh my responsibility? That I have not prayed through these nights?
Do you believe that I dont realize all the consequences, that nothing will be the same? Do you believe for a
second that God would abandon me now, at this moment, to choose among these creatures?

23

[Seplveda]: No, Eminence.

[Cardinal]: We would make, however, a great error by thinking that the Church can ignore the legitimate
interests of its members. We are in fact very aware of what a serious blow this could be for colonization. There
exists, possibly, a solution that I would like to remind you of. If it is clear that the Indians are our brothers in
the name of Jesus Christ endowed with a reasonable soul like ours, on the other hand it is also certain that the
inhabitants of Africa are much closer to animals. These inhabitants are black - very crude - ignorant of art and
writing. They build some huts; all their activity is physical, it is certain. And since the Roman Empire, theyve
been subdued and domesticated. Some Africans have already made the crossing?
[Conquistador]: Yes, Eminence, since the conquest. They adapt quickly to the climate. They are even rather
resistant.
[Cardinal]: Who sends them?
[Conquistador]: The Portuguese. They capture them and sell them. They are going for very expensive indeed.
[Cardinal]: I can obviously only suggest this but why not gather them up yourself in sufficient quantity?
Youd be sure to have robust labor and even less expensive. I suppose that in Africa they are easy to find.
[Conquistador]: Their King sells them. The Church would not oppose this trade?
[Cardinal]: Why would I oppose that? Does the King of Spain oppose it?
[De las Casas]: Eminence, there is a risk that this will quickly become big business, leading to all kinds of
abuse.
[Seplveda]: Leading to wars, leading to revolutions!
[Cardinal]: According to you, Brother Bartolom, nothing can be worse than what we already do. Yourself, it
seems to me, you have a black slave?
[De las Casas]: For a short time, and I never treated him like a slave.
[Cardinal]: You were satisfied with his service?
[De las Casas]: Very satisfied.
[Cardinal]: Did you not say yourself, if I remember well, that it was a very good solution and that you
recommend it?
[De las Casas]: I said it, yes, in my youth to save the Indians. But Eminence, I changed. Everyone changes.
Today I am ashamed of my words and I say on the contrary
[Cardinal]: Good! Thats fine, thats fine.
[De las Casas]: that the Africans are like other men, sons of Adam, and it would be to commit a mortal sin.
[Cardinal]: We will not start again! We are not here for that. Very well, we will add a codicil. You prepare a
redaction. In the name of His Holiness I thank you for your help. Grace to God for being with us until the last
moment. [Latin]: In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [Congregation]: Amen.