Hans Haacke - A Conversation

A Conver sationwith Hans Haacke
YVE-ALAIN BOIS, DOUGI-AS CRIMP,

and ROSALIND KRAUSS
K r a u s s ;S i n c e y o u r w o r k h a s , f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g , r e s i s t e dp a i n t i n g , i r n p l i c i t l , v
criticizing painting as incapable of supporting any seriouscritique of its or.vn
a s s u m p t i o n s .w h a t m a d e y o u d e c i d e t h a t y o u r w o r k f o r y o u r T a t e G a l l e r y e x h i bition last spring rvould be a painting?
H a a c k e ;T h a t w a s n ' t t h e f i r s t t i m e I d i d a p a i n t i n g .
Crimp; Right. There's the portrait of Reagan that {brrned part of Oelaemaelde,
the work for Documenta 7. But it is true, isn't it,
Hommaged.Marcel Broodthaers,
that the portrait of Margaret Thatcher is the hrst instance in u'hich you've used
a paintine by itself?
Haacke: No, there's another precedent, aside from the paintings I did before
I t u r n e d t o t h r e e - d i m e n s i o n a lw o r k i n t h e e a r l y ' 6 0 s . F o r a s h o w i n M o n t r e a l
in 1983, I made what I called a Paintingfor the Boardrolm, an industrial lands c a p e . I t i s a s o m e w h a t i m p r e s s i o n i s t i ca e r i a l v i e w o f t h e A l c a n a l u m i n u m
smelter in Arvida, Quebec. I painted it after a photograph that I louncl in an
Alcan P.R. pamphlet. It is a cheerful, sunny picture. Into the bright sky I
p a i n t e d a s h o r t c a p t i o n w h i c h a n n o u n c e s ,i n a t o n e o f p r i d e , t h a t t h e w o r k e r s a t
, nd
A r v i d a h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o c o n t r a c t b o n e f i b r o s i s ,r e s p i r a t o r yd i s e a s e sa
i
n
a
l
l
t
h
ree
cancer. The painting is framed in aluminurn siding. Obviously,
m
e
a
n
i
n
g
. It
p
a
r
t
i
c
u
l
a
r
s
u
c
h
h
a
s
a
c a s e s ,I c h o s et o p a i n t b e c a u s et h e m e d i u m a s
with
a
capital
Art
art
viewed
as
is almost synonymous with what is popularly
A-with
all the glory, the piety, and the authority that it commands. Since
p o l i t i c i a n s a n d b u s i n e s s e sa l i k e p r e s e n t t h e m s e l v e st o t h e f o l k s a s i f t h e y w e r e
s u r r o u n d e d b y h a l o s , t h e r e a r e s i m i l a r i t i e sb e t w e e n t h e m e d i u m a n d m y s u b jects. When I planned the Reagan painting, I was aisoinspiredby thc thinking
of Marcel Broodthaers. In the catalogue preface tohis Musie d'art moderne,Dlpartmentdesaigles,Sectiondesfigures
(1972), he pointed to the parallelism betrvee-n
e
a
g
l
e
,
t
h
e
s y m b o l o f e m p i r e , a n d t h e r n 1 ' t h i cp o n ' e r so 1
the mythic powersof the
e
a
g
l e sa r e r e a l l y n o t c o u r a g e o u sb i r c l s ;t h e v a r e
t
o
p
o
p
u
l
a
r
b
e
l
i
e
f
,
art. Contrary
OCTOBER: The First Decade
176
Bois,Crimp.a
even afraid of bicycles, as Broodthaers wrote. Their power is due to projection.

The same is true for art-and political power. They need the red carpet, the
gold frame, the aura of the office/museum - the paraphernalia of a seeming immortality and divine origin.
outdone, the
p r - o m o t i o no l
tlic white vc
apartheidthi
political pon
t u t e ss l x t e e n
Krauss:But in the caseof the Broodthaers work, the medium, we could say, is a
standard iconographical emblem, rather than oil paint's being the medium.
Crnnp; Both t
Haacke: It is important that the Thatcher porrrait is an oil painting. Acrylic
paint doesn't have an aura. I was also deliberate in the choice of the Victorian
frame. I had it built especially. For the design, I followed the example of frames
around paintings by Frederick Leighton and Burne-Jones at the Tate. In effect,
these frames elevate their contents to the status of altarpieces, endow the paintings with religious connotations. I don't have to tell you what gold represents.
As with the frame, I tried to mimic, as best I could, the love for genre detail
and the paint style of the Victorian era. And so all the details are Victorian, the
interior with its furniture, the curtain with its tassles, the Tate Gallery's own
sculpture of Pandora by Harry Bates, the typeface on the bookspines, and so
on. I thought I should place Margaret Thatcher into the world that she represents. As you know, she expressly promotes Victorian values, nineteenthcentury conservative policies at the end of the twentieth century.
to Comment
the current rr
portrait appt
its authorin'
nration abou
painting. \\'t
century acad
directly corn
the return tc
Bois. The icr

going on in
Crimp; k's rr
e n c e s ,a n d I
political per
lvork's pung
K r a u s s :M o s t o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e p a i n t i n g , a s w e l l a s i t s t i t l e , T a k i n g S t o c k
(unjnished),refers to the Saatchis. Do you mean for the Saatchis to be understood as Victorian figures as well?
Haacke: of course, in their own way, the Saatchis are also Victorians. They
match the young bourgeois entrepreneurs of the nineteenth century, relatively
unfettered by tradition, without roots in the aristocracy, and out to prove themselvesto the world. Their conquests are the brash takeovers of advertising companies around the world. After successfulforays in the U.K., a few years ago
they gobbled up Compton, a big Madison Avenue agency with an international
network. And last year it was the turn of McCaffrey & McCall, another New
York agency. By now the Saatchi empire has grown to be the eighth largest
peddler of brands and attitudes in the world. Naturally, they align themselves
with the powers that promise to be most sympathetic to their own fortunes. So
they ran the election campaign for Margaret Thatcher in 1979, and again last
year. They also had the Tory account for the European Parliamentary elections
this year. Heseltine, the Tory minister, who has an interest in Campaign,the
British advertising trade journal, has been a good friend of the Saatchis since
the days when Maurice Saatchi worked for the journal. Everyone in London
assumes that, as a reward for their services during Margaret Thatcher's first
election campaign, the Saatchis got the account of British Airways. Not to be
Haacke: But
content wou
an art-world
associated r,
amounts to
era, which
original exp
Krauss: I'd li
cians like R
the oil port
image, yet r
thing which
the twentie
media. I'm
Thatcher ar
their image
.,.-.+**--
t76
Bois, Crimp, andKrauss
177
outdone, the Saatchis' South African subsidiary took it upon itself to run the
promotion of the constitutional change that was presented in a referendum to
the white voters by the South African government's National Party. Foes ol
a p a r t h e i d t h i n k t h a t t h i s c h a n g e , i n e f f e c t ,c e m e n t e d t h e s y s t e m w h i c h r e s e r v e s
for the white minority, which constipolitical power in South Africa exclusiuell,t
tutes sixteenpercent of the population.
- - (u o n .
('r. the
:lg rm-
1 \ ' .i s a
rttIIl .
\ c rr'l ic
to r i a n
:f a m e s
t'Hect.
paintr.:cIlt.-\.
clctail
. 1 t 1t.h c
. : O\\'ll
Crimp; Both the Reagan and Thatcher paintings were also presumably intended
to comment on the relationship between these people's reactionary politics and
the current revival of painting in a reactionary art-world situation. The Reagan
portrait appeared in a Documenta exhibition that everyone knew would lend
its authority to the painting revival, while the Thatcher portrait contains information about the power of the Saatchis, who are active promoters of the new
painting. Why then did you choosea hyper-realist, or perhaps a late nineteenthcentury academic style for these paintings, rather than a style that might more
directly comment upon the neoexpressionism which is the dominant mode of
the return to painting?
.rlld:tr
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Bois; The iconological mode you've used is indeed quite remote from what is
going on in contemporary painting.
Crimp; It's true, of course, that what is going on now involves historical refere n c e s ,a n d I c a n S e et h a t y o u w o u l d w a n t t o m a k e t h e c o n n e c t i o nb e t w e e n t h e s e
political personalities and Victorian values, but that choice aiso reduces the
work's pungency with regard to current painting.
Haacke;But if I had concentrated on the style of current painting, the politicai
content would have been left out. I would have been dealing exclusively with
an art-world affair. The art world is not that important. Moreover, the attitudes
associated with much of the retro type of painting favored by the Saatchis
amounts to a gold-frame celebration of a romantic individualism of a bygone
era, which clearly predates and differs essentially from the attitudes of the
original expressionists. Much of the current painting is coy naughtiness'
Krauss;I'd like to explore further what you said about the kind of image politicians like Reagan and Thatcher wish to elaborate for themselves. It's true that
the oil portrait, because of its aura, its air of nobility, is important for this
image, yet connecting the Saatchis and Thatcher also brings into play something which involves the opposite of this aura, something which is very much of
the twentieth century-the public relations selling of politicians through the
media. I'm interested to think about an act which restores a traditional aura to
Thatcher and Reagan, who have been sold by television, who most often have
their images conveyed through the medium of video.
Rois,Crimp, a
178
I
I
{
Hans Haacke.Taking Stock (unfinished)

1983-84. Firstshownin theexhibition
Hans Haacke, Tate Gallery,London,
January 25-March 4, 1984.
Inscripttons:
On thefoot of the '
ITECHAPEL (
COMMITTEE
On the top shelf o
On thespinesof tl
.\r'is, BL, Blac
Airways, Britis
C o u n c i l ,B r i t i s
S o u p ,C e n t r a l C
British Election
E l e c t i o n s ,C u n :
l o s t ) ,D u P o n t . t
Johnson & Johr
\Iax Factor. \
Gallery, Nestle
Rank Organiza
Roval Academr
S e r p e n t i n eG a l l
T\'-am, Uniter
\fuseum, rA'ale
\\'rangler.
On thepapn han
vear ended \Ia
L t d . ( S a a t c n rl r
valued at f380.
On thepapn jtnt
Company PLC
Furniture, equi
vehicles/Grossr
c o s t / D e p r e c i ai tr
f8,059,000/rep
a r e s t a t e da t h i
a c c u m u l a t e dd c
of tangible lixe
annual installn
o f t h e a s s e t s f: o
6 and 10 vears
r v o r k so f a r t .
The initials \I5

p l a t e so n t h e t o
brothers Mauri
Portralts apPea
1 9 8 2J u l i a n S c
rvith broken pl:
space at the Ta
u'as later instal
b y S c h n a b e l* r
S a a t c h i .A t t h e
member of the
the Tate. The
operated bv thr
Patrons are a I
a c q u i r i n ga n d ,
the Tate, the\' :
museum's exhil
are collectors a
as well as the N
have been coml
donated a worl
178
:W
EE==a-P*
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-Su
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F
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Inscriptions:
On thefootoJthecolumn,&l. ES SAATCHI TRUS/
ITECHAPEL GAL/TRONS OF NEW/ART
TATE/GALLER.
COMMITTEE/HE
On the top shelJoJ the bookase; MS, CS.
Allied Lyons,
On thespinesof the booksin the bookcase:
Avis, BL, Black & Decker, Blue Nun, British
Airways, British Arts Council, British Crafts
Council, British Museum, British Rail, Campbell
Soup, Central Office of Information, Conservatives
British Elections, Conservatives European
E l e c t i o n s ,C u n a r d , D a i l y M a i l , D u n l o p ( a c c .
lost), DuPont, Gilette, Great Universal Stores,
Johnson & Johnson, IBM, Massey-Ferguson,
Max Factor, National Gallery, National Portrait
Gallery, Nestle, Playtex, Proctor & Gamble,
Rank Organization, Rowntree Mackintosh,
Royal Academy, South Africa Nationalist Party,
Serpentine Gallery, Tottenham Hotspurs,
TV-am. United Buscuits. Victoria & Albert
Museum, Wales Gas, Walt Disney, Wimpey,
Wransler.
On thipapu hanging ooerthe edgeof the table: ln the
year ended March 31st 1978 Brogan Developers
Ltd. (Saatchi Investment Ltd.) sold art works
valued at f380,319.
On thepaper Qing at Thatcher'sfoot Saatchi & Saatchi
Company PLC/The year ended September 1982/
Furniture, equipment, works of art and motor
vehicles/Grosscurrent f 15,095,000/replacement
cost/Depreciation f7,036,000/Net current
f8,059,000/replacement cost. Tangible net assets
are stated at historical cost or valuation less
accumulated deoreciation. The cost and valuation
of tangible fixed assetsis written off by equal
annual installments over the exoected useful lives
o f t h e a : s e t s :f o r f u r n i t u r e a n d e q u i p m e n t b e t w e e n
6 and 10 years. No depreciation provided for
works of art.
The initials MS and CS on the rims of the broken
plates on the top shelf of the bookcase refer to the
brothers Maurice and Charles Saatchi, whose
portraits appear in the center of the plates. In
1982 Julian Schnabel, known for his paintings
with broken olates. had an exhibition in the same
sDaceat the Tate Gallerv where the Haacke show
was later installed. Nine of the eleven paintings
by Schnabel were owned by Doris and Charles
Saatchi. At the time, Charles Saatchi was a
member of the Patrons of New Art Committee of
the Tate. The museum is a oublic institution
o p e r a t e db y t h e B r i t i s h g o v e i n m e n t . W h i l e t h e
Patrons are a private association with the goal of
acquiring and donating contemporary works to
the Tate, they also appear to have influence on the
museum's exhibition policies. Among its members
are collectors and nearly all London art dealers,
as well as the New York dealer Leo Castelli. There
have been complaints that the Saatchis have never
donated a work to the Tate Gallerv.
t79
Charles Saatchi was also a member of the Board

of Trustees of the Whitechapel Gallery, another
p u b l i c i n s t i t u t i o n i n L o n d o n . I t i s s u s p e c t e dt h a t
he orofited from inside information about
exhibition plans of the Gallery, which allowed
him to buy works, notably by FrancescoClemente
and Malcolm Morley, at a favorable moment.
Doris Saatchi, a Smith College graduate and
ex-copywriter for Ogilvy & Mather, and her
husband Charles began collecting art in the
'70s.
Initially interested in photorealism,
early
they shifted their attention to minimalism and
n e o e x p r e s s i o n i s mW
. hen the Museum of
Contemporary Art in Los Angeles opened in
1983, it invited eight collectors to present
selectionsfrom their holdinss. The Saatchis chose
, h i a , C l e m e n t e ,G u s t o n .
w o r k s b y B a s e l i t zC
Kiefer, Morley, Schnabel, and Stella. In a further
attempt to exert control over the art world,
Saatcii & Saatchi made a bid to bty Art in America
when Whitney Communications offered it for sale.
The financial base for such ventures is the income
from the advertising agency Saatchi & Saatchi
Company PLC, which has been built by the
Saatchi brothers, through mergers, into the largest
British advertising agency and the eighth largest
worldwide. In 1982 they acquired Compton
Communications, a large New York agency with
a worldwide network, and in 1983, McCaffrey &
McCall, also of New York. Shares of Saatchi &
Saatchi are taded on the stock exchanges in
New York and London.
Doris and Charles Saatchi are soon to open a
private museum in the north of London, to be
designed by Ma-x Gordon, a friend and former
colleague at the Tate. A catalogue of the Saatchi
collection with contributions from well-known art
critics and historians is being prepared by Doris
Saatchi, who also writes for the World oJ Intniors,
Artscribe, and ArchitecturalReaiew.
In February 1984, one month after the opening of

the Haacke exhibition at the Tate Gallery, Charles
Saatchi resigned his position on the Patrons of
New Art Committee of the museum. He also
resigned his trusteeship of the Whitechapel
Gallery.
180
Haacke: Margaret Thatcher's public relations advisors evidently told her that
she should style herself after the Queen, including her taste in clothing. She
also took voice training lessonsto get rid of her shrillness. Her entire image has
been transformed over the past few years to fit the media better. It pays politically to look like the Queen rather than like the nation's headmistress. I therefore thought I shouid paint her in a haughty, regal pose. In order to accentuate
her rivalry with Queen Elizabeth and also to srrengthen the period look, I
seatedher on a chair with the image of Queen Victoria on its back. It is a chair
that I found in the collection of the Victoria & Albert Museum. Thatcher
would like to rule an Imperial Britain. The Falklands war was typical of this
mentality.
Bors.' So that is why you used the emblematic tradition, the iconographic
symbols?
Haacke:Yes. I hope everybody understood that this was done tongue-in-cheek.
Crimp: It also seems that there is a strategic aspect to this, insofar as you are
using a painting style that even the most naive museum goer can read. It's possible in this way to capture a broader audience, and interestingly enough there
was a very large media response to the Tate Gallery work. By resorting to this
auratic art form, you get press coverage that you probably wouldn't get if you
were to use a more avant-garde kind of object. I'd like to ask you something reIated to the question of strategies, because I was struck by the fact that two of
your most recent works are, on the one hand, a portrait painting, which makes
all kinds of concessionsto being a traditional work of art, and, on the other
hand, the IsolationBox, Grenada,which makes no pretense to being a work of art.
Boes.Except that, in a way, it becomes a bad piece of minimal sculpture.
Haacke.Indeed, there, too, there is a subtext. when I read about the isolation
boxes in the New York Times,I immediately recognized their striking similarity
to the standard minimal cube. As you see, one can recycle "minimalism" and
put it to a contemporary use. I admit that I have always been sympathetic to
so-calied minimal art. That does not keep me from criticizing its determined
aloofness,which, of course, was also one of its greatest strengths. As to the implied incompatibility between a political statement/information and a work of
art, I don't think there are generally accepted criteria for what constitutes a
work of art. At least since Duchamp and the constructivists, this has been a
moving target. On a more popular level, of course, there are strong feelings
about what does or does not look like a work of art. Minimal cubes obviously
don't qualify, whereas anything painted on canvas is unquestionably accepted.
The argument rages only about whether or not it is a good work.
Hans Ha,
I 981.
Firstsho
U.S.Int
mall oJth
Citl L'ni
David Shr
\ovembel
invaded C
isolation c
The wood
bv eight ft
one could
of ventilat
Inside ont
here." Th
boxes o\'
irom the l
Shortlv al
administr
the sculpt
turned it
hardlv vi:
the work
.{n editor
1984, att:
of earth i
prime mir
Thomas'
180
:'rldher that
. , r t h i n g .S h e
. :t i m a g e h a s
.' payspoliti' r t ' s s .I t h e r e ' riccentuate
. : iod look, I
'. It is a chair
::. Thatcher
' : r i c a lo f t h i s
':: i'l ii
]>,
i '
.,]',ri,
':".&:,,,t
'nographic
*-_r,
-i n - c h e e k .
1\ \'OU afe
i It'sposuqh there
:ng to this
{('t i{ \'ou
rthing re:.,rtt$o
ol
. .h r r a k e s
:ire othcr'
: K ol aft.
:r:Lll'e.
:.oilttior.
..rrrilar.ii'.
...1|"
Hans Haacke.U.S. Isolation Box, Grenada, 1983.

I 984.
First shown in conjunctionzoili Artists Call Against
U.S. Intervention in Central America in the public
mall of the Graduate School and (Jniuersitl Center'of the
City Uniaersity of New York, Januarl 1984.
lin!:
David Shribman reported in the Neza York Times,

N o v e m b e r 1 7 , 1 9 8 3 ,t h a t t h e U . S . t r o o p s t h a t h a d
invaded Grenada detained orisoners in boxlike
i s o l a t i o n c h a m b e r s a t t h e P o i n t S a l i n e sa i r p o r t .
The wooden boxes measured approximately eight
by eight feet, had four small windows so high that
one could seeneither in nor out, and had a number
of ventilation holes with a radius of half an inch.
Inside one box a prisoner had written, "It's hot in
here." The orisoners were forced to enter these
boxes by crawling through a hatch that extended
from the floor to about knee level.
,:itctit :
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Shortly after the exhibition opened, the

administration of the Graduate School moved
the sculoture into a dark corner of the mall and
turned ii in such a way that the inscription was
hardly visible. Only after strenuous protests was
the work restored to its original positionAn editorial in the Ll/all StreetJournal,February 2 1,
1984, attacked this work and a gravelike mound
of earth in memory of Maurice Bishop, the slain
prime minister of Grenada, by the New York artist
Thomas Woodruff. TheJournal found these two
works to be "in proper company" with "America's

greatest collection of obscenity and pornography"
a few blocks down 42nd Street. The writer of the
editorial also called the Isolation Box "the most
remarkable work of imagination in the show."
Artisx Call Against U.S. Inleraentionin Central
America,an ad hoc coalition of artists in the U.S.
and Canada, staged numerous exhibitions,
performances. and other events in over twenty
cities fromJanuary to March 1984. They were
organized in protest against U.S. policy in
Central America and in solidarity with the victims
of that policy. Claes Oldenburg designed the
ooster. In New York. more than 700 artists of all
iges and styles participated, among them both
internationally renowned and totally unknown
artists. Established commercial ealleries such
as Leo Castelli,Paula Cooper, ind Barbara
Gladstone, as well as alternative galleries, made
their soacesavailable. Artists Call took out a
three-quarter-page advertisement in the Sunday
edition of the New York Times. Most art iournals
reported the events extensively. Arts Malazine
carried rhe Oldenburg poster on its cover.
1Bl
(.'tt
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Hans Haacke. But I think you question my motives. 1978-79.

First shown in a one-manexhibitionat the Stedeljk uan Abbemuseum,Eindhouen,Januaryt 1979
'd2
Bois,Crimp, andKrauss
183
K r a u s s :O n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t s t r u c k m e w h e n I s a w t h e P h i l i p s p i e c e I B a l 1
thinkyu questionm7 motiues,1978-791was that the blown-up, rather dramatic,
high chiaroscuro photographs of black youths seemed to make reference to the
works of Gilbert and George from the same period. So it seemsto me that thcre
is always a component of your work that reveals certain formal moves made
within the art world and the contents to which those forms can be exceedinqly
porous.
Haacke;I didn't think of Gilbert and George. Those are photos from a South
A f r i c a n b u s i n e s sm a s a z i n e . T h e y w e r e p r o b a b l y s u p p l i e d b y t h e P h i l i p s P . R .
department. But it is true that I often play on the modes of the contemporary
art world; and I try to make something that is accessibleto a larger public,
w h i c h d o e s n o t c a r e f o r t h e h i s t r i o n i c so f t h e a r t w o r l d . A s D o u g l a s p o i n t e d o u t ,
it helps that these pieces do not have the look of hermetic "avant-garde" art.
Translations;
Left Panel: We are businessmen and we look for
business opportunities, which is the only factor
governing our decisions. Political considerations
don't come into it. Nobody is going to help South
Africa unless he is paid for it, and obviously you
need know-how from abroad. We are here to stay.
-Jan Timmer, Managing Director of Philips in
South Africa.
C c n t eP
r a n e l ;B u t I t h i n k y o u q u e s t i o n m y m o t i v e s .
You see me just as a man of capital. However,
above all I really would like to help people to have
the freedom to develon themselvesas much as
possible, to create opportunities for themselves,to
take initiatives and carry the responsibility for
them.-Frits Philips, in his autobiography,
45 Yearswith Philips.
Right Panel: The Employee Councils are advisory
bodies. They are precluded from negotiating
minimum wagesor conditions of employment; and
in fact wages are rarely discussed.The average
black worker earns 229 rand a month. Blacks are
excluded fiom apprentice training for radio and
TV technicians by the Job Reseraations
Act. FinancialMail, Johannesburg, July 22, 1977,
supplement on Philips.
Philios investments in South Africa amount to
approximately $83 million. In a work force of
more than 1900, blacks, coloreds, and Indians

predominantly occupy jobs for untrained or
low-skilled workers. Responding to the wishes of
the South African government, Philips established
lamp manufacturing facilities in Rosslyn, at the
border of a Bantustan ("homeland"). Philips
dominates the South African market for lightbulbs,
radios, hi-fi equipment, tape recorders, and
electrical appliances, and has a sizeable share of
the market for television sets. Moreover, Philips
is active in telecommunications and sophisticated
e l e c t r o n i c s .B e t a u s e o f t h e l o w p e r s o n a ii n c o m e o f
the black majority population ind rhe widespread
lack of electricity in black residential areas, the
possibility for an expansion of the market in
c o n s u m e r e l e c t r o n i c si s l i m i t e d .
The Mirage fighter planes of the South African
airforce as well as its Alouette. Gazelle, Puma,
and Super Frelon helicopters are guided by
radio-altimeters and/or radar equipment lrom
Philips. Such fighter planes and helicopters were
loaned or sold to Ian Smith's white government
o f R h o d e s i al n o w Z i m b a b w e ) b y S o u r h A f r i c a .
Philips also supplies the South African police with
radio equipment in spiteof a U.N. military
embargo, and Philips radio-altimeters guide the
Exocet missiles which have been supplied to
South Africa.
-.
OCTOBER: Thc First Decade
184
,3ois.But thc
-l-hatcher
an<
rransformati
I'rn thinking
rransformati
Haacke: Actu
peared in a
Bois. That's
c h a n g eo f c o r
rhere seerns
1978.
Gratifide.
Hans Haacke. Everlasting
First shown in a one-man exhibition at the
Stedelik aan Abbemuseum, Eindhouen, 1979
(The exhibition opened one ueek aJter the Shah's
final del:arture Jrom lran).
Translation;Philips of Iran expressesits everlasting

gratitude to His Imperial Majesty, the Shah of
Iran, who secured national unity by founding the
Iranian Resurgence Party. -Advertisement in
the Iranian newspaper, Kalthan, March 5, 1975.
In terms of sales, Philips is the fifth largest
non-American multinational industrial
c o r p o r a t i o n . W i t h 3 8 3 , 9 0 0e m p l o y e e s( a s o f 1 9 7 7 )
i t r a n k s w i t h c o m p a n i e ss u c h a s G e n e r a l M o t o r s ,
Ford, and ITT. Corporate headquarters are
located in Eindhoven, Holland. In spite of the
decline in the number of employees from 99,000
( 1 9 7 1 )t o 8 5 , 7 0 0( 1 9 7 7 ) ,t h e c o m p a n y r e m a i n s
the largest private employer in Holland (during
the same period the number of Philips employees
i n l o w - w a g ec o u n t r i e s ,n o t a b l y i n t h e T h i r d W o r l d ,
rose signilicantly).
In Iran, Philips maintains facilities and a sales
organization. During the Shah's regime, the
Iranian military received, among other material,
2 1 0 T i g e r a n d P h a n t o m f i g h t e r p l a n e s ,s i x t e e n
S u p c r F r e l o n h e l i c o p t e r s ,a n d 1 5 0 0 C h i e f t a i n
heavy tanks, all equipped with radio-altimeters,
UHF radios, and.ior night vision equipment from
P h i l i p s .W h e n t h e S h a hl e f t t h e c o u n t r y i n J a n u a r y
1979, twelve vesselsof the Kaman class, with
guided missile lirepower, were under construction
fbr the Iranian navy. Their missile guidance
systems were produced by a Dutch subsidiary of
Philips, Hollandse Signaalapparaten BV, in
Hengelo.
Haacke: Onl .
paper ad, it
another mat(
is something
tapestry'- thr
Crimp: If I r
Thatcher rvo
advertiseme
Haacke: Sor;,
styie. The qr
1 9 7 5 1I t o o k
them so that
headquarter
context lnto
Alain is rel'e
Bozs.'In a u
whereas lvht
ment formal
medium is ir
in the Thatc
Haacke: |'ja.'
Bols.'Your e
involved the
soundtracks
that was sim
J+
Bois,Crimp, andKrauss
185
Bois: But there is an important difference between this kind of work and the
Thatcher and Reagan paintings. IJntil now, your work has involved a minimal
transformation of the material. There was not an elaborate coding through art.
I'm thinking of another Philips piece f EuerlastingGratitude, 1978), in which the
transformation involved only the addition of the Philips logo.
Haacke:Actually, I didn't add anything. It is a facsimile of a Philips ad that appeared in a Teheran newspaperin 1975.
.Bols.'That's exactly my point. Before, the context was the signifier. Only a
change of context was required for a change of meaning to take place. But now
there seems to be a much greater mediation through art-historical codes.
Haacke: Only in part. Obviously, had I only made a photocopy of the newspaper ad, it would have remained at the level of documentation. The shift to
another material and its inherited connotations changes it radically. Tapestry
is something we know from art history. And the panel underneath the Philips
tapestry-that's the way things are displayed in museums.
Crimp: If I understand what Yve-Alain is getting at, it is more that in the
Thatcher work, for example, you are creatingan image as opposed to taking an
advertisement and making a facsimile of it and adding information.
Haacke:Some of the ads I invented myself, emulating contemporary corporate
style. The quotations about what's good about art for business [On SociatGrease,
1975] I took from books and newspapers. I made commemorative plaques of
them so that they look as if they would be at home in the lobby of corporate
headquarters or in the boardroom. Transplanting them from that imagined
context into an art gallery can be devastating. That's where the context YveAlain is referring to plays an important role.
Bois: In a way, the Thatcher piece refers to a history of satirical portraiture,
whereas when you transform a quotation from a business into an advertisement format, there is no mediation through art history. The context or the
medium is immediate for the viewer becauseof this abrupt transformation. But
in the Thatcher painting, the transformation is far more complicated.
Haacke:Maybe there are more layers. Indeed, I use context as a material.
Bozs.Your earlier work reminds me of the strategiesof the situationists, which
involved the simple robbery of codes. For example, they released films whose
soundtracks had been removed and replaced with others. They made a film
that was simply a porno-Kung-Fu film from Hong Kong to which they added a
=-*
flois. CrimP. ar
186
:cen in the ((
:ituation. ltc
that the prol:
crlter the arl
soundtrack that was a shouting-match between Maoists and Trotskyists. The

reason they were called situationists is because they changed strategiesfor each
new situation, and because they invented situations, disruptive events within
the apparently smooth flow of "reality." I have felt that your work was very
..r.r.h ionnected with that of the situationists, becausethey too wanted to show
the connections between investment, advertising, and the culture industry. But
with your paintings, there is no longer the same brilliant economy of means'
What I found extraordinarily provocative in your works was their elliciency in
revealing so much meaning through such slight transformation. But with a
painting, you have to start from scratch and make the object'
rhc political
Haacke; Con
Lrsed daclii st
\\'hile it Ioof
thc ranqe oI
\\as the polil
rhought it u
Krauss;You're talking about the economy of means in the readymade principle;

but if the readymade in this case is Victorian painting, then in a way it's the
same economy. Was it difficult to do?
iir)d cornnrlt
Crimp:Do r'
vou have to
Haacke;Yes. I did a lot of painting in art school and for a while afterwards. But
I never learned this kind of painting, with figures, perspective, and so forth. So
I listened around, looked into painting manuals, and went to museums to
study how such paintings are done. I have no delusions about having prclduced
a masterwork inthe traditional senseof the craft. I hope it is good enough for a
passing grade. For my purpose, this is all it needs. But it was fascinating, and I
irad fun-doing it. Another reason for making a painting was that I had been
stamped a conceptualist, a photomontagist, that sort of thing. This was a way
to mess up the labels. There were, in fact, a good number of people who
thought thit my portrait of Reagan was a photograph, or that I'd paid somebody to paint it for me. It was therefore very important that I painted it myself.
Normally, I have no qualms about paying someone to execute something I
can't do, as long as I can afford it.
tcrms?
Haacke: It st
CrimP: \\'hi
something t
art context:
qeneration'
climate o1 t
can, to son
now, lt !\'oL
i s t . T h e r e1 c
n'ould resu,
Crimp; Again. it seems to me that it is a question of strategies, of devising a

work which is appropriate to the problem at hand. That's why I was interested
to ask about the differencesbetween the Thatcher portrait and the IsolationBox,
Grenada.It seems to me that one of the problems of making politically engaged
art today is to devise something ihat won't simply be assimilated because it has
accepted the conventional aestheticcodes. For example, if at this moment there
is a great deal of attention paid to Leon Golub's work, attention that certainly
was irot given to him in the past, it's becausehe makes figurative paintings, and
figurative painting has returneci as a sanctioned style.
Haacke; \'c:
cngaged *'r
today it ma
vival. I car
Bois. I *'as
1 9 8 4 1t h a t
1 9 7 5 ,r a t h t
Haacke: I tl
nam War
"Well, norr
vate world
We have t,
Haacke:Not exclusively.
Crimp; Perhaps not exclusively. But the generalization of Golub's imagery
makes it possible for the Saatchis to collect his work, or for his paintings to be
-.%i*
186
. The
: r'aCh
. , .r t l . r i n
. 1.cry
.how
t87
s e e ni n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e W h i t n e y B i e n n i a l , f o r e x a m p l e , a n d n o t t o d i s t u r b t h e
situation, becausethey fit into the predominant painting mode. So it seems
that the problem one faces is to invent a style for each work which allows one to
enter the art context but which is not lacking in specificity in such a way that
the political thrust vanishes into the dominant aesthetic of the present.
, Ilur
rple;
'- the
Haacke:Concerning the Grenada piece, aside from the minimai art reference, I
u s e d d a d a s t r a t e g i e s - t h e r e a d y m a d e , c h a l l e n g et o c u l t u r a l n o r m s , a n d s o o n .
W h i l e i t l o o k s l i k e a d u m b b o x a n d n o t h i n g e l s e , i t i s , I b e l i e v e ,p e r f e c t l y w i t h i n
the range of twentieth-century art theory as we know it. But you are right, it
was the political specificity that caused the amazing hoopla around the piece. I
thought it would take more to get the Wall Street
Journal to foam at the mouth
and commit three factual errors in one editorial.
' But
' : , .S o
Crimp: Do you feel that you must always make a speci{ic aesthetic choice, that
you have to invent a form that can be understood in aestheticas well as political
terms?
..lns.
:-iV ln
. . : t ha
::) -i to
:rrcd
e
: . l ( . )a
r
rndI
: ireen
: \\'ay
-
'l hcl
. rl]le-
: ..clf.
: . . n gI
Haacke:It seems to work that way.

Crimp: What I mean is, do you think this is necessary in a strategic sense,
something that will continue to make it possible for you to function within the
art context? I'm curious about this because it seems to me that artists of your
generation were able to achieve a certain degree of successin the more liberal
climate of the late '60s and early '70s, and having achieved that success,you
can, to some extent, continue to function. But for an artist beginning right
now, it would be much more difficult to enter the art scene as a politicized artist. Therefore the problem for such an artist would be to devise a strategy that
would result in some visibility for his or her work.
-.nq a
:'.stCd
. llox,
-.iged
.: has
'ht:re
: .rinly
:-.and
r{ c r y
I'rbe
Haacke:Yes, I already had a foot in the door when I moved towards politically
engaged work. It got stepped on, but I didn't lose the foot. For young artists
today it may be more difficult. They will have to invent their own tricks for survival. I can't tell them what to do.
Bois: I was interested to read in your recent interview lArts Magazine, April
1984] that you thought that if your Guggenheim piece had been censored in
1975, rather than in 1971, it would not have had the same impact.
Haacke:I think I wouldn't have received as much support. As soon as the Vietnam War was over and the draft abolished, everyone relaxed and thought,
"Well, now we can go home, the fight is over." People withdrew into their private worlds. This is the political vacuum which was then filled by the Risht.
We have to live with it today.
(-.-:-t
188
Bois. The way you define context as part of your material is also taking such
political shifts into consideration. If you change strategies, it's presumably because the larger context has changed as well. Knowing your past work, I would
never have expected the painting of Thatcher, but apparently you thought of it
as a way of adapting to a different situation.
pr):I\\;lf
Haacke:I remember saying, some time in the'70s, that I might do a painting

when the right context presented itself.
: : . . ct i r t u t n ,
: :' :irc p:in
: , :r c i : a l r . a
.::<. ^\ncl tl:
, 1r r r r J k . u s t
- , . . , . c, . t . t b l i
r u : : i tt h c ( . .
: . 1 : : - () l l !
Pa
A: lor
::..'nl. In tl
. Speaking of painting, I was

Krauss: You could feel painting coming on.
tremendously moved by the two works about painting, the Manet lManet(small uersion),lBBBPROJECT'74, 197+l and the Seurat lSeurat's"Les Poseuses"
1975, 19751.I find that the history of ownership of the Manet is very touching:
the experience of the European avant-garde supported by well-to-doJewish intellectual fellow-travelers, which then runs into the stone wall of Hermann Abs
and the postwar German industrial machine. But what about the Seurat? Its
history of ownership took place mainly in the U.S., after it was bought by
De Zayas and then John Quinn. Did you intend that to be revealing of the
formation of a taste for the avant-garde in this country?
Haacke;No. What triggered the Manet piece was the context of its exhibition. I
was invited to participate in a show in Cologne which was to celebrate the hundredth anniversary of the Wallraf-Richartz Museum. For this occasion, the
museum published a golden brochure with reproductions of paintings that had
recently been acquired. Particular attention was given to Manet's Bunch of As'
paragus.Aside from a reproduction of the painting, there was a photograph of
Abs delivering a speech celebrating the painting, which was sitting on a studio
easelbehind him during the ceremonies of its donation. Of course, I knew who
Abs was; any newspaper reader in postwar Germany is more or less aware of
the role he played and still plays today.
A-r-i.,
Sitl
: r - n i l ( ) I l( o
' , ) Lr i l l l
()Ut
'
:rr inr rclrst

* ill bc dor
: i r r . r st h c r r t
i'.i.trrrv trti
rt:trch i: lr
g.rrclc ctnr
ctrttrges lI
Krauss; Played during the war?

Haacke;During the Nazi period and after.
Crimp; What is revealed about Hermann Abs in the piece is the perfectly
smooth transition between his work for the Reich and his work for the reconstruction.
-\rne riciit-t
.r. sas Dt
proto-biqrctn:rrklibl
Haacke:So this was the hook on which I could, so to speak, hang the paintinga typical example of I'artpour I'art. Naturally, when I started I didn't know anything about the history of the painting's ownership. On the one hand, there is
the telling role of Abs-as you say, the smooth transition from the Nazi period
Haackt. \
--:fu-
188
' .
"rt"h
,irlv beI u'ould

..ht of it
:..iinting
;. I was
\Ianet-
1BBB.. L:..-.
.Llrlrl5.
.'.ish in::lnAbS
-:'at?Its
. <' hr rr r
l-.,,
u/
i of the
t . : t i o n .I
:::chun. 'n. the
:::;rthad
;. aJAsi:'aph of
.r-.tudio
:..'n'who
:rr aI Of
-: r f e c t l y
f- recon-
--rtno''""D
\\'any: h e r ei s
. period
189
to postwar Germany-but of equal interest is the history of culture, how culture is always part of social and political history. That is fascinating - and moving. And then there is also the art historian's custom to trace the provenance of
a work, usually restricted to the authentication of the object, which, of course,
also establishesits monetary value. I took it a step further in my "tombstones,"
w i t h t h e C . V . s o f t h e p a i n t i n g ' so w n e r s . T h e d o c u m e n t e d i n c r e a s ei n v a l u e a n d
the circumstances under which the painting changed hands serve as headlines
for the panels. As you know, the museum officials did not care to have their
patron's past displayedon the walls of the museum; the piece was censored.
As for the Seurat piece, I was interested in the phenomenon of art investment. In the course of the research I discovered that this painting by Seurat
had been acquired by a newly formed international art investment company
with the beautiful name Artemis. I then followed its history in the same way as
I h a d w i t h t h e M a n e t , a n d I d i s c o v e r e da n u m b e r o f i n t e r e s t i n g t h i n g s . T h e
painting leads you to anarchist circles in Paris and their friends in established
galleries, and to wealthy Parisian art groupies. Eventually it is sold across the
Atlantic, where there is the Stieglitz circle, John Quinn, representing the legai
e s t a b l i s h m e n to f N e w Y o r k , a n d a g a i n s o c i a l i t e sd a b b l i n g i n a r t . D u r i n g t h e
Depression, the painting was picked up as a bargain by someone whose family
fortune apparently was immune to the financial chaos of the time. He eventually offered it up on the auction block, because he needed money to add a
period ballroom to his house on Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. Artemis
is indirectly linked to the fortunes that were made in the Belgian colonies. By
way of a company director, there is also a presence at the Museum of Modern
Art. It is an incredible story. I have learned a lot about the underpinnings of
high culture from it.
Krauss: Since part of your medium is research, it has a side aspect of calling attention to the support system for the art industry. One of the things that you
point out about Peter Ludwig lThe Chocolate
Master, 1981], {br example, is that
he increasesthe value of his works by putting them in museums where research
will be done on them, through which they gain a certain historical density, and
thus their monetary value rises. So your research and the research typical of art
history mirror each other. Of course, one of the things that happens with research is fortuitousness. Just as the history of theJewish patrons of the avantgarde emerges from the Manet piece, another story, slightly more sinister,
emerges from the Seurat work-the story of the very wealthy patrons of the
American avant-garde, the Blisses,the Rockefellers. Mcllhenny is an example,
as was De Zayas, and John Quinn. In a way all these people were already
proto-big-art-investment types. What I'm saying is that those seemed to me
remarkably different cases.
Haacke:A footnote to your remark about Manet and theJewish intellectual pa-
190
i: li::r':':i
B : , . ( . r t n t P .r
ha
\\'[rrzburg,
Bael (nou .{'n
Ludxig). In 1
--l
(l\ e n to the
Arr and Scien<
Peter Lu
.\cquisitions C
Dusseldorf. of
\luseum of \t
.\dvison Cour
Contem poran
'Itunslbssltd
itu tee'lelhgsbe
Itl retsagesctsrf,rei
Rryht pancl. Rt
\lonheim Grc
assorted choco
Aldi chain sto
The pro
nhere the con
iactories. It ai
headquarters I
in the Saarlou
and approxim
The labr
Gaststitten nt
D\I 6.02 (sca
eighteen lear:
: hi1
lscale S
unlon contrac
D M 1 0 9 7- .p
Hans Haacke. The Chocolate Master'

1981. (1 of 7 diptvchs.) First shown in
one-man ?;hibiti;n-, Paul Maenz Gallery.
d major suru()
Colosnc, lnrir.g Westkunst.
o{ ai since 1939, Mal 1981'
for the district Cologne-Aachen-Siegen'

S i n c e t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e 1 9 5 0 s ,P e t e r a n d
Irene Ludwig hati been collecting art' At first
rhev collected old art. Since 1966 they have been
con'centrating on modern art: Pop art,
photorealism, pattern Paintrng' art lrom .r'^lslr
Translations:
G e r m a n y , a n d n e o e x p r e s s l o n l s mJ l n c e r v l 4
Exunpt
Are
Loan
Permanent
on
Left Panet: Art Objects
the
F.,.. tt'a*ie has been an adjunct professor.at
1925
in
born
was
Ludwig
frim ProbcrtvTaxis. Peter
'in
holds seminars tn art
and
Colog.t.
oI
University
Fritz
industrialist
Kobleni. the son of the
history al the Museum Ludwig'
Ludwis (Cement Factory Ludwig) and
P.a^aatant loans of modern art are located
Mrs. Ilelene Ludwig (nde Kl6ckner)'
M u s e u m L u d w i g ' C o l o g n e . ,t h e N e u e ,
t
h
e
a
t
h
e
A f t e r h i s m i l i t i r y s e r v i c e( 1 9 4 3 - 4 5 ) ,
Galerie-sammlung Ludwig and the Suermondtstudied law and art hiitory. In 1950 he received
Ludwig Museum in Aachen. the natlonal gallerles
a doctorate with a dissertation on "Picasso'sImage
in WesI and East Berlin' the Kunstmuseum Basel'
of Man as an Expression of his Generation's
ih. C..r,r. Pompidou in Paris, and the-state
Outlook on Life.t The dissertation focuseson
museums in Saarbriicken and Mainz Medteval
r e l a r i o n sb e t w e e nc o n t e m p o r a r y I i t e r a t u r e . a n d
housed at the Schniitgen Museum in,
;;il';;.
the work of Picasso. Historical events get llttle
the Couven Museum in Aachen, and tne
C
o
l
o
s
n
e
.
attention.
National Gallery. The RautenstrauchB;";;i";
In 1951 Peter Ludwig married a fellowM
"
.
"
urn in Colognehas pre-Columbian.and
j
o
i
n
e
d
t
o
.
*
L
e
o
n
a
r
d
a
n
d
M
o
n
h
e
i
m
,
sludent. Irene
"Afri.ut
as well as works lrom (Jceanla'
obiects,
'
f
a
t
h
e
r
i
n
l
a
w
'
s
h
i
s
Monheim KC, Aachen.
t
i
r
e Wallraf-Richartz Museum of
I
n
t
d
Z
O
m
a
n
a
g
l
n
g
Partner'
b u s i n e s s .I n 1 9 5 2 h e b e c a m e
Ludwig) receiv-eda
(now
Museum
t
h
e
Colosne
o
l
c
h
a
i
r
m
a
n
1
9
7
8
,
i n 1 9 6 9 , p r e s i d e n t ,a n d i n
pop
The
Suermondt Museum ln
art.
of
donaiion
Leonard Monheim AG, Aachen.
Suermondt-Lu{wig
nufn"n
of
boards
IUYT-1m)^was
1no,i,
Peter Ludwig is representedon the
ol medlevalart ln lvl / A
directors of Aeripiina Versicherungs-Gesellschaft e i v e n a c o l l e c t i o n
which includes
art,
Roman
and
Greek
of
B"ff*,it"
and Wageonfa-brik Uerdingen. He is the chairman
loans located in Kassel, Aachen, and
o.a-.".",
.Jn'io"ut council of ihe Deutsche Bank AG
"iirt.
s c a l es t i p u l a t e
The ove
foreign worke
predominantl
However, forrin Morocco,
"per head": D
contingentof
daily from ne
The cor
female foreigl
compound in
Three or foul
of hostels for
Federal Labo
withheld fron
The cor
these hostels
press office o{
Associationjt
"Since most o
contacts only
they are prac
Female
reportedly ha
find a foster I
hardly afford
their child fo
for a big con
and women t
190
Bots, Crimp, andKrauss
Wiirzburg, was donated to the Antikenmuseum

Basel (now Antikenmuseum Basel and Museum
Ludwig). In 1981 a collection of modern art was
given to the "Austrian Ludwig Foundation for
Art and Science."
Peter Ludwig is a member of the
Acquisitions Committee of the State Gallery'the
in
Diisseldorf, of the International Council of
Museum of Modern Art, New York, and of the
Advisory Council of the Museum of
Contemporary Art, Los Angeles.
?-:cr and
\.: hrst
=.c been
i.asr
. ,;2
r. r at the
r:. in art
- .ocated
!
Je
-:::ondt! ia.lleries
-::r Basel,
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Right panel: Regent.Under the Regent label the

Monheim Group distributes milk chocolate and
assortedchocolates,mainly through the low-priced
Aldi chain stores and vendins michines.
The production takes place in Aachen,
where the company employs 2500 people in two
factories. It alsb has its'administraiive'
headquarters there. About 1300 employees work
i n t h e S a a r l o u i sp l a n t , s o m e 4 0 0 i n Q u i c k b o r n ,
and approximately 800 in West Berlin.
The labor union Nahruns-GenussGaststd.ttennegoriated wages ringing from
D M 6 . 0 2 l s c a l FE = a s s . i r b l y - l i i e i o r k , u n d e r
e i g h t e e ny e a r s ) p e r h o u r t o D M 1 2 . 3 0
(scale S = highly skilled work). According to the
union contract, the lowest salary amounts to
D M 1 0 9 7 . - p e r m o n t h , a n d t h i h i g h e s rs a l a r y
s c a l es t i p u l a t e sa m i n i m u m o f D M 3 2 1 4 .- .
The overwhelming majority of the 2500
foreign workers are woien.-They come
predominantly from Turkey and Yugoslavia.
Ho,wever, foreign workers are also hiied by agents
in Morocco, Tunisia, Spain, and Greece (price
" p e r h e a d " : D M 1 0 0 0 .- i n 1 9 7 3 ) . A n o t h e i '
contingent of foreign workers crossesthe border
daily from nearby Belgium and Holland.
The company maintains hostels for its
female foreign workers on its fenced-in factory
compound in Aachen, aswell as at other locations.
Three or four women share a room (the buildine
of hostels for foreign workers is subsidized by thi
Federal Labor Agency). The rent is automatically
withheld from the worker's waees.
The company keeps a chick on visitors ro
these hostels and, in fact, turns some away. The
press office of the Aachen Diocese and the'Caritas
Associationjudged the living conditions as follows:
"Since most of the women and eirls can have social
contacts only at the workplacelnd in the hostel,
they are practically living in a ghetto."
Female foreign workers who give birth
reportedly have to leave the hostel or they must
find a foster home for the child at a price rhey can
hardly afford. Another option would be to offer
their child for adoption. "It should be no problem
for a big company which employs so many girls
and women to set up a day care center."
191
The personnel department retorted that

Monheim is "a chocolate factory and not a
kindergarten." It would be impossible to hire
k i n d e r g a r t e n t e a c h e r s .T h e c o m p a n y i s n o t a
welfare agency.
Der Pralinenmeister(The Chocolate Master) is the
promotional catchword with which Trumpf
chocolate products are marketed. Trumpf is one
of seven brand names of the West German
Leonard Monheim AG, which maintains
production facilities in Germany, Belgium,
Canada, and the United States. Sales in 1982
amounted to approximately $660 million (46%
outside Germany). Peter Ludwig is the chairman
of the chocolate empire with headquarters in
Aachen. Toge.her with his wife Irene, he holds
the majority of shares.
Through donations from their art collection,
through hints about possible future donations,
as well as through loans, they have gained
considerable influence in a laree number of
European museums.When thi city of Cologne
accepted a donation of pop art in 1976, it agreed
to build a museum for twentieth-centurv art.
w h i c h w a s t o b e c o m p l e t e df o r t h e d o n o r ' s s i x t i e r h
birthday and to be named after him. The
construction thus far is estimated to have cost in
excessof $100 million. The contract also stipulates
t h a t t h e L u d w i g s m u s l b e c o n s u l t e dw h e n c L r a t o r s
and the director of the museum (all citv civil
s e r v a n t s )a r e a p p o i n t e d a n d t h a t i h e d o n o r i s t o b e
given a detailed report on the museum's operations
twlce a year.
The Neue Galerie-Sammlung Ludwig, a
municipal museum in Aachen, regularly serves
as the first public showcaseand promoter of
Ludwig's new acquisitions. Among the shows in
Aachen have been presentations of photorealism,
pattern painting, neoexpressionism, art from
East Germany and the Soviet Union, and recently
art from New York's Lower East Side.
A plan promoted by Ludwig to establish a
German Ludwig Foundation, to be financed by
the city of Cologne, the state of North RhineWestphalia, and the federal government and to
hold unspecified works from the collector, was
vigorously opposed by the entire museum
profession. It was feared that the foundation,
which was to organize exhibitions, purchase
works, and administer a collection, would drain
scarce funds from currently decentralized
museum activities, and that, with Ludwig as
chairman, it would exert an overpowering and
dangerous influence on the entire art world. The
plan collapsed when Ludwig angrily withdrew
his proposal, although the public agencies were
ready to finance the scheme.
r92
trons. SomeJews thought my work was anti-Semitic. I had to insist that they
read all the way through to the end of the story. Only then did they concede
that I was not anti-Semitic. My insistentmention of the owners' religions rem i n d e d t h e m o f N a z i p r a c t i c e s . O b v i o u s l y , i t w a s e s s e n t i a lf o r m y p i e c e t h a t
Abs, who managed so well under the Nazis, appeared in the context of their
victims.
Crimp; There is a specificity to all of your works in relation to where they are
first shown, including even a language specificity-that is, if you make a work
for a Dutch museum, the language will be Dutch. So I wonder about your reasons for showing works again in other places where they don't have that degree
of specificity, or for selling them, which assumes they continue to have value
according to the notion of the universal nature of the work of art. Take, for example, the Alcan work IVoici Alcan, 1983]. People living in Quebec know the
public relations strategies of Alcan the way people living in the U.S. know the
public relations strategiesof, say, Mobil. But taken out of the context of Montreal, where your Alcan work was shown, the work's meaning is reduced to a
kind of generality which compromises its value.
Hans Haacke. Voici Alcan. 1983.

First shown in one-man exhibition, Galerie France Morin, Montreal, Februarlt 1983.
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192
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Translations:
LeJtpanel: LUCIA DI LAMMERMOOR,
producedby the Montreal Opera Company with
i u n d i n g f r o m A l c a n . A l c a n ' sS o u t h A f r i c a n
affiliate is the most imporrant producer of
aluminum and the only fabricator of aluminum
sheet in South Africa. From a nonwhite work
f919e of 2300, the company has trained eight
skilled workers.
Centerpanel: STEPHEN BIKO, black leader, died
Iiom head wounds received durins his detention
b y r h e S o u t h A f r i c a n p o l i c e . A l c a n - sS o u r h A f r i c a n
affiliate sells to the South African sovernment
s e m i f i n i s h e dp r o d u o s w h i c h c a n b i u s e d i n p o l i c e
and military equipment. The company doesnor
recognize the trade union of its black workers.
Right panel; NORMA, produced by the Montreal
Opera Company with funding from Alcan. Alcan's
South African affiliate has been desienated a "kev
point industry" by the South African"governmeni.
The company's black workers went on strike in
1981.
Alcan Aluminum Ltd., through its subsidiaries
a n d a f f i l i a t e s .i s o n e o f t h e l a r g e s tp r o d u c e r so f
aluminum i^ngotin the world and operates large
aluminum fabrication facilitres rn some
thirty-five countries. Throughout the world it
has approximately 66,000 employees. It is the
Iargest manufacturing employer in Quebec. The
head office of the totally integrated multinational
c o m p a n y i s i n M o n t r e a l . O n D e c e m b e r3 1 , 1 9 8 1 ,
48% of the common shareswere held by residents
o f C a n a d a , 4 5 % b v r e s i d e n t so f t h e U . S . T h e
Chairman of the Board, Nathaniel V. Davis, a
U.S. citizen, is reputed to control a considerable
block of shares. While the largest single
shareholder is the Caisse de D6oot et de
P l a c e m e n t ,w h i c h a d m i n i s t e r st h e p e n s i o n f u n d s
of the province of Quebec, ir is nor represented
on the Board of Directors.
Alcan has marketed aluminum in South Africa
since 1930. In 1949 it started production at its
p l a n t i n P i e t e r m a r i t z b u r gn e a i D u r b a n . M a j o r
new investments occurred between 1969 and 1972.
When Alcan sold a block of its shares in 1973 to
the South African Huletts Corporation it stressed
that this was not a politicalmove. Duncan
Campbell, a vice-piesident of Alcan, explained,
"The decision was made purely for commercial
and financial reasons. It doesn't mean we're
pulling out of South Africa.' The increase in
South African ownership in Alcan's South African
affiliate allows the company to borrow locally and
193
thereby to circumvent restrictions imposed by the

South African sovernment. The chairman of
Huletts Aluminum was reoresented on the
Defense Advisory Board oi the prime minister of
South Africa. In the early '70s Alcan was accused
by church groups of having paid its black workers
wages below the poverty datum line. In 1982
representativesof the United Church of Canada,
the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishoos. the
R e d e m p t o r i s t F a t h e r s .a n d t h e A n g l i c a n C h u r c h
of Canada filed a proxy resolution at Alcan's
annual meeting requesting the board of directors
t o e s t a b l i s ha S o u t h A f r i c a n r e v i e w c o m m i r t e e t o
"examine the company's activities in South Africa,
including the sale of its products to the South
African military, the status of Huletts' chairman
on the Defense Advisory Board, and the storage of
weapons on company premises, as well as the
training of militia units of Huletts employees."
Speaking for the board, Nathaniel Davis, its
chairman, opposed the resolution. He explained
that all security regulations of South Africa are
binding on Alcan's affiliate. "While it is entirely
normal and indeed inevitable." he said. that Alcan
products are used by the South African military,
Alcan was not Dermitted. under South African
law, to disclosethe .ature of salesfor military use.
Stephen Biko was the cofounder and central figure
in the Black People's Convention, the South
African black consciousnessmovement. He was
arrested without charges by the Special Branch of
the South African Police on August 18, 1977, and
detained in Port Elizabeth. The oolice admitted
h a v i n g f o r c e d B i k o r o s p e n dn i n e t i e n d a y s n a k e d i n
a cell before he was interrogated around the clock
for fifty hours while shackled in handcuffs and leg
irons. Durine his detention he suffered severehead
injuries. In a semiconsciousstate he was taken
naked in a Land Rover to a hosoital in Pretoria.
about fourteen hours away from-Port Elizabeth.
He died from his injuries on September12.
Alcan has been sponsoring cultural programs,
ranging from the ThdAtre Alcan and the
production of the popular TV series Lu PlouJs
to architectural conferences and an art collection
in the company's headquarters. Cosponsorship of
two productions of the Op6ra de Montr6al with
Hydro-Quebec linked Alcan in a highly visible
way with the provincially owned utility company.
Cheap hydro-electric power is the main asset of
Alcan's aluminum production in Quebec. In the
recent Dast Alcan has been threatened with
n a t i o n a l i z a t i o no f t h e e l e c t r i cp o w e r g e n e r a t i n g
plants it owns in the province.
"Voici Alcan; is the title of a glossybrochure which
w a s o u b l i s h e db v A l c a n i n 1 9 7 9 .
t9+
Haacke: Specificity does limit a work somewhat to the occasion for which it is
produced. But there is more to it. Let's look at the practical side. If I'm invited
for a show, which doesn't happen every day, I cannot make ten or fifteen works
for it, because it always takes me a long time to complete just one piece. So I
have to show earlier works, too. As long as there is one new work, I think an intelligent viewer understands that the other works once played an equally topical
role. In fact, they provide a useful foil for the new piece. So the situation is
not quite as restrictive as it sounds in your question. Many of the corporate
strategies referred to in my pieces are not unique to the company I happen to
focus on. As you say, Alcan, as much as Mobil, uses culture to further the fortunes of its shareholders. Both have recognized that, in order to succeed, they
have to shape public opinion. Both are multinationals. No matter where you go
in the capitalist world, you stumble across the Mobil logo. Alcan happens to be
overshadowed in the U.S. by Reynolds and Alcoa, which used to be a sister
company, but Alcan is well known in Europe, in Africa, India, Brazil, and
Australia. Even though VoiciAlcan was made for an exhibition in Quebec, the
Tate Gallery audience in London could relate to it, particularly because, due to
the historical and close trade relations between the U.K. and South Africa,
apartheid is a hot topic in London. Naturally, I had to provide translations of
the French captions, as I always translate texts into the language of the country
where the works are exhibited, if they were not done in that country's language.
Also, the Ludwig piece got a lot of attention in London. As I suspected,viewers
drew parallels to the Saatchis'attempts to gain a controlling foothold in public
museums. And the public learned, through the Ludwig example, what that
could entail. The Saatchis, like Ludwig, run a multinational company. Both
have ambitions to influence cultural policies outside their home countries. And
both are household names in the inner circles of the international art world.
There are other works that are specific and still have general relevance,
such as the confrontation between Reagan and antinuclear protests across my
red carpet. People in Kassel, as much as in London and New York, thought
that this concerned them directly. So, in a way, many of my pieces are "multinational." There is, maybe, still another reason to exhibit works that do not retain their bite when transplanted from their original contexts. I think it is important to build up and display a record of this kind of work in order to enrich
the critical discourse. I am often told that an array of examples demonstrates
that socially engaged work need not be one-dimensional and tied to a single
medium or a single approach. So the exhibition of the methodology can serve a
useful purpose, too. As to selling the works, let's not forget that we are not living in an ideal society. One has to make adjustments to the world as it is. In
order to reach a public, in order to insert one's ideas into the public discourse,
one has to enter the institutions where this discourse takes place. Under present
circumstances, that is easier if an exchange value comes along with use value.
As you know, more often than not it is by way of commercial galleries that one
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195
eventually gets invited to shows that attract larger audiences. Documenta.

museum exhibitions, and so forth rarely present works that have not been, at
l e a s t m a r g i n a l l y , s a n c t i o n e db y t h e a r t t r a d i n g p o s t s . T h e s a m e i s t r u e f o r t l i e
a r t p r e s s . I a m s u r e w e w o u l d n o t b e d i s c u s s i n gt h i s h e r e t o d a y i f I h a d n o t
shown in commercial galleries. You would probably not know my work, and it
might be very different or totally nonexistent. one more practical point: my
w o r k , I i k e t h a t o f m a n y a r t i s t s , i s e x p e n s i v et o p r o d u c e . W e h a v e a n o v e r h e a d .
So an occasional sale helps to underwrite the production. But I am far from being able to live off the sale of my work, nor do I have the ambition to do so.
T h a t w o u l d m a k e m e d e p e n d e n to f t h e f o r t u n e s o f t h e m a r k e t . S o , a l l i n a l l , i t i s
a messy situation, full of compromises.But I think one has to be pragmatic.
Otherwise, one is completely paralyzed. If I had not made adjustments, by
n o w I w o u l d b e c o n s u m e db y b i t t e r n e s sa n d n o t h i n g w o u l d h a v e b e e n a c h i e v e d .
B o i s :H o w d i d y o u p r e s e n t t h e T h a t c h e r p a i n t i n g ? j u s t b y i t s e l { ' ?o r w i t h a l o n g
caption? Was there any information about the Saatchis, for example?
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Haacke:No. That is unnecessary in London, because, since the Thatcher election campaign, Saatchi & Saatchi is a household name. Everybody knows them.
what the general public doesn't know is their involvement with art. when I
show the piece elsewhere, I will have to provide some background information.
Crimp; In addition to the information the painting contains, though, there is
much more about the Saatchis'art manipulations that is not there-for exampie , the fact that Doris and charles Saatchi bought works by Malcolm Morley.
after Charles Saatchi learned in a Whitechapel Gallery trustees meeting that
the gallery planned to stage a Morley exhibition. Did you rry to make .rlih it-r{brmation available?
Haacke:It's not there for a simple reason. I just couldn't think of a good way to
get this in without a breach of style and without overburdening the painting
with text. However, the interviews generatedby the Thatcher/Saatchi piece
have allowed me to elaborate on such items. This fallout, at the secondary level
i s , i n a w a y , p a r t o f t h e p i e c e . B y t h e w a y , I w a s t o l d t h a t n o t o n l y i n t h e c a s eo f
the Morley purchases did Saatchi profit from inside information and positions
w i t h i n p u b l i c i n s t i t u t i o n s .A n d i t w a s a l s o t h e t a l k o f t h e L o n d o n a r r w o r l d t h a t
the Saatchis owned nine of the eleven paintings in the Schnabel shciw at the
Tate Gallery. In any case, it might be worth stating precisely.whatis in the
painting: that Charles Saatchi is a trustee of the Whitechapel Gallery is inscribed in the column behind Margaret Thatcher, as is the fact that he is on the
Patrons of New Art Committee of the Tate Gallery. The Saatchi advertising
a c c o u n t so f v e n e r a b l e B r i t i s h a r t i n s t i t u t i o n s , i n c l u d i n g t h e T a t e , a r e l i s t e c lt o l
gether with other big accounts as book titles on the Victorian bookshel{'.And
196
you can read about the company's art investment in the papers on the little
t a b l e a n d a t M a g g i e ' s f o o t . F r o m a l l o f t h i s o n e c a n d r a w c o n c l u s i o n sa b o u t t h e
c o n n e c t i o n sb e t w e e n t h e S a a t c h i s ,t h e c u r r e n t B r i t i s h g o v e r n m e n t , a n d t h e c o n f l i c t s o f i n t e r e s t t h a t a r i s e o u t o f t h e i r p o s i t i o n so n p u b l i c i n s t i t u t i o n b o a r d s a n d
t h e i r p r i v a t e i n t e r e s t si n t h e a r t w o r l d . B y t h e w a y , I j u s t h e a r d t h a t C h a r l e s
Saatchi has resigned from the Board of the Whitechapel and from the Patrons
Committee of the Tate. I have no idea whether that had anythine to do with
ny Taking Stock.
Crimp; Can we talk more generally about the tenor of the current situation?
Now that it has become clear that a concerted effort is being made to suppress
poiiticized art activity, an effort on the part of neoconservatives both directly
and indirectly involved in policy making at the government level, what strategies do you see as possible for artists?
Haacke;It is necessary to make clear that someone like Hilton Kramer is not
d i s i n t e r e s t e d ,a s h e c l a i m s t o b e . W h e n h e t a l k s a b o u t h i g h a r t a n d g o o d w r i t ing, and so forth, he follows a hidden political agenda, for whir:h these terms
serve as a smokescreen. I recently reread Kramer's "Turning Back the Clock:
Art and Politics in 1984" [ ]''lewCriterion,Aprll 1984]. It is quite amazing how he
presents himself there as the impartial arbiter, beyond ideology, Strategically,
this makes a lot of sense. The moment one knows that, for all practical purposes, he is in charge of the art section in the neoconservative shadow cabinet,
his credibility is shot. His denial that high art is as much affected by and influe n c e si t s s o c i o p o l i t i c a le n v i r o n m e n t a s o t h e r p r o d u c t s o f t h e c o n s c i o u s n e s si n d u s t r y i s , o f c o u r s e , a s m u c h a n i d e o l o g i c a lp o s i t i o n a s i t s o p p o s i t e .
Krauss;One of the most astonishing things Kramer says in that article is that
the very idea that art has a political basis is totalitarian, that it is a Stalinist
position.
Haacke;He suggests,in barely veiled form, that art works, and the accompanyi n g c r i t i c a l w r i t i n g , t h a t q u e s t i o n c u r r e n t U . S . p o l i c i e sa n d t h e t e n e t so f c a p i talism are leading us down the road to the Gulag. According to this point of
view, several of the current presidential candidates and senators and congressmen are suspect. As you know, this is the classic neoconservative doctrine as
propounded by its godfather, Irving Kristol, who calls Kramer a friend and
was probably instrumental in securing funds for launching the New Criterion.It
is not surprising to find the historian Gertrude Himmelfarb, who is Kristol's
wife, among the regular contributors to Kramer's Kampfblatt. Kramer's pubIisher, Samuel Lipman, doubles as a music critic for Norman Podhoretz's Commentarl, another neoconservative periodical. As a Reagan appointee, Lipman
also pushes the "social agenda" on the National Council on the Arts, which gov-
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197
erns the NEA. All of these nice people see one another regularly as members of
the committee for the Free world under the leadership of Midge Decter,
Podhoretz's wife. And their activities are funded by the same group of conservative foundations.
where the Left is sometimes unnecessarily vulnerable-and Kramer exploits this weaknesswherever he can - is in its tendency to make mechanical attributions of ideology. In that respect, it mirrors the Right. we should recognize that things need to be evaluated within their respectivehistorical contexti.
Taken out of context, they are likely to be misread and can play the opposite
role from that of their original settings. For instance, if my Grenada bo* *e.e
reproduced in Soldierof Fortune,it would have changed its meaning totally, even
at this moment.
: rlC-
Krauss, That is also the best argument against idealist claims for art.
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Haacke:Yes. Meaning and value are contingent. Threatening his readers with
the specter of the "Stalinist ethos," Kramer is, in effect, out to undermine the
First Amendment. This echoes arguments by Lawrence Silberman, his fellow
member on the Committee for the Free World. Silberman urged his friends at
a recent conference to shake off the fear of being charged with McCarthyism.
Kramer's suggestion that arts activities which incorporate criticism of this administration's policies and question the sanctity of the capitalist system should
not receive money from the NEA makes partisan politics a "new criterion" for
government funding. Quite a remarkable position for someone who claims to
fight for freedoml Under this formula, government agencieswould be restructured to serve as censors and to perform the task of the reelection committee of
whoever happens to occupy the white House. In Britain, like on the Continent,
museums are public institutions, totally paid for by the taxpayers. There, even
more than in the IJ.S., one can argue that they are constitutionally obliged to
show art irrespective of its relative allegiance to a particular government's ideological coloration.
.r ll \'-
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crimp; But you can make the same argument for American museums, because
in the end we as taxpayers support them. Museums are tax-exempt institutions; all donations to them are tax-deductible. The ordinary taxpayer has to
make up for donations to museums, whether by private individuals or corporations.
Haacke:Absolutely. The same can be said of the New Criterion.The conservative
Ibundations that fund Kramer's publication are tax-exempt. Consequently we
taxpayers are chipping in to cover for their exemptions; and Kramer's sponsors were very generous. As start-up money, he got $375,000 from the Smith
Richardson Foundation, $200,000 from the Carthase Foundation of Richard
198
Crimp.a
M e l l o n S c a i f e ,a n d $ 1 0 0 , 0 0 0f r o m t h e J o h n M . O l i n F o u n d a t i o n . * I n t h e b e ginning, the editorial offices shared an address with the Olin Foundation on
Park Avenue. According to the New York Times, the Scaife Family Charitable
Trust also contributed, but becausethe Trust does not have to make its records
oublic. we don't know how much came from there. Richard Mellon Scaife is
i.ro*., to be the bankroller of the New Right. Among numerous other organiz a t i o n s ,h e a l s oh e l p e d t h e H e r i t a g e F o u n d a t i o n , w h i c h , b y t h e w a y , a d v e r t i s e s
in the Narr Criterion. In the opinion of a writer in an article in the WashingtonPost
on the Scaife funded groups, it is clear that their "collective effect has been to
help shape the way Americans think about themselves and their nation's problems." thls is also the goal of Hilton Kramer's publication. Any doubts about
this are dispelled by his introduction to the first issue. A far cry from his claim
llttack;1-he
,r rliflcrcnt k
.-\nd so thev
to disinterestedness!
Crimp; One of the things that your work has revealed is the specific"intere stedness'iof corporate sponsorship of the arts. Not only do corporations use their
support of iulture tt clean up their dirty images, but they are able to effect a
,.ffl..r,ro.rhip on the part of the institutions they fund. And within the contemporary ari world, the force of the marketplace has become.so total that one
hu, ih. sensethat the kind of interventionist work that you and a few other artists make can hardly make a dent in the monolithic monster that the art world
has become.
B o i s ;I n y o u r t e x t [ " M u s e u m s , M a n a g e r s o f C o n s c i o u s n e s s , "A r t i n A m e r i c a ,
February 1984], you make a distinction between the old-style dealer and the
new, between the Castelli generation and the Mary Boone'
Haacke,-In principle, I think, things were not all that different in the past. But
now, with ihe ai.i,ral of multinational conglomerates, it has taken on a new
dimension, both in terms of market and ideological control' Ten years ago,
corporations did not have so much influence on the art world, nor could the
galiery/museum/collector complex exert as much pressure internationally'
Crimp: Certainly one change took place after the recession of the early'70s,
which precipitated a crisis for art institutions. That crisis was met by corporate
,,rppo.i, so that now museums are virtually prisoners to corporations' Few
.nr1r..r-, can now do a major exhibition without corporate sponsorship, which
drastically reduces the kind of exhibitions that can and will be organized.
*
These fisures are a matter of public record, as all tax-exempt foundations must file financial reports, *f,i.h u.. made availa6le at the Foundation Center in Nerv York.
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199
Haacke:The younger people working in galleries and museums no longer kno*.

a d i f f e r e n t k i n d o f a r t w o r l d . T h e y a s s u m et h a t t h i s i s t h e n a t u r a l s t a t eo | a f l a i r s .
And so they all become little entrepreneurs.
Krauss:What seems to me especially brilliant about your work is that you identified style as one of the enemies; you understood style as a category born of
idealism, as a fundamentally nonhistorical way of thinking. And therefore your
willingness to change depending upon the situation became a way of avoiding
the situation that Douglas referred to before regarding Leon Golub, in which
Golub's paintings can be recuperated and made chic once figuration has become fashionable. You seem to have been consistently aware of this problem.
Haacke;I'm not sure whether I was aware of it. Now, of course, I am. It helped
that I was primarily what you might call job-oriented. Even in the '60s, I
wanted things to function, in a very literal, physical sense. I carried this approach over to the more recent work. For example, in order to conduct a poll of
the art public, one has to devise certain social situations, and for the preientation of the results, one has to use particular graphic means. whether ihey happen to conform to the period style or not is irrelevant.
Krauss: But you have always had a certain parodic relationship to style and to
formal aspects of the art of the time when you were working.
crimp: It seemsto have to do with utility, as you say. one of the problems with
much recent political art is that artists seem to be trying to achieve a fixed style
for political work. This is what I find somewhat problematic about Barbara
Kruger's work, for example. There are various stylistic signifiers in her workthe black, white, red of Russian constructivism; the photomontage of Heartfield;
the generic images of the '40s and '50s, a time when ideology seemed perhaps
more naked in the photographic image. All of this tends to reduce the work to a
generalized political statement, rather than one of real specificity. This may be
one of the reasons that Barbara's work has been so well received, this and the
fact that the work's graphic beauty is its most obvious characteristic.
Bors. There is a difference in your work, which is that you have always been
wary of the possibility of recuperation, which was at the core of the thinkins of
t h e s i t u a t i o n i s t sa l s o . S o e a c h t i m e t h e p o s s i b i l i t y a r o s e , y o u w o u l d j u s t s h i f t
your position.
Haacke:Yes, one needs to be aware of the potential for recuperation. But this
should not reach paranoid proportions. If I had been too concerned about cooptation, I would probably not have been able to do the things I've done. It can
have a paralyzing effect. I saw this with some colleaeues and students in the
200
'60s
a n d ' 7 0 s . T h e y e i t h e r s t o p p e d w o r k i n g a l t o g e t h e ro r w e n t t h r o u g h t r e m e n dous personal crises, from which some eventually emerged as cynical entrepreneurs. In either case, that amounted to a capitulation to the powers that be. It
takes stamina and shrewdness to survive in this mess.
,Boas.One of the reasons I was always so impressed by what I've called your
economy of means is that your work simply provides information, and information can't be obliterated. So even if the work is recuperated and transformed
into a meaningless object in a museum, it still carries that information. This
quality of immediacy, of simply adding information, is the way your work will
always resistcomplete co-optation.
Crimp: Except insofar as one gets further away from what is referred to historically. After all, Heartfield can be recuperated now, even though his work includes real information.
Bols.' But Heartfield is recuperated mainly on stylistic grounds, as a dadaist
photomonteur; but I don't think Hans's work could be recuperated in this way.
Haacke:Nothing can escape eventual absorption. But you are right; the informational aspect probably makes it immune, at least for a while. We just have
to reconcile ourselves to the historical contingency of things. Otherwise, we fall
into the idealist trap of believing in universal meanings and values. But if the
dissenting voices become the mainstream chorus, as it happened, for example,
toward the end of the Vietnam War, what more can one hope for?
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. t t r r i i o V e r vs i r r i i l

Hans Haacke - A Conversation

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Hans Haacke - A Conversation

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A Conver sationwith Hans Haacke

YVE-ALAIN BOIS, DOUGI-AS CRIMP,

OCTOBER: The First Decade

even afraid of bicycles, as Broodthaers wrote. Their power is due to projection.

Bois. The icr

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

OCTOBER: The First Decade

Hans Haacke.Taking Stock (unfinished)

The initials \I5

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

Charles Saatchi was also a member of the Board

In February 1984, one month after the opening of

OCTOBER: The First Decade

Hans Haacke.U.S. Isolation Box, Grenada, 1983.

David Shribman reported in the Neza York Times,

Shortly after the exhibition opened, the

works to be "in proper company" with "America's

OCTOBER: The First Decade

Hans Haacke. But I think you question my motives. 1978-79.

more than 1900, blacks, coloreds, and Indians

OCTOBER: Thc First Decade

Translation;Philips of Iran expressesits everlasting

OCTOBER: The First Decade

soundtrack that was a shouting-match between Maoists and Trotskyists. The

Krauss;You're talking about the economy of means in the readymade principle;

Crimp; Again. it seems to me that it is a question of strategies, of devising a

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

Haacke:It seems to work that way.

OCTOBER: The First Decade

Haacke:I remember saying, some time in the'70s, that I might do a painting

. Speaking of painting, I was

:rr inr rclrst

Krauss; Played during the war?

,irlv beI u'ould

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

OCTOBER: The First Decade

Hans Haacke. The Chocolate Master'

for the district Cologne-Aachen-Siegen'

Bots, Crimp, andKrauss

Wiirzburg, was donated to the Antikenmuseum

Right panel: Regent.Under the Regent label the

The personnel department retorted that

OCTOBER: The First Decade

Hans Haacke. Voici Alcan. 1983.

\-. -rn -\lulrttnu

Alcan has mar

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

. )ur rea.,: degree

thereby to circumvent restrictions imposed by the

OCTOBER: The First Decade

- :--,: i., 'ttlt

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

eventually gets invited to shows that attract larger audiences. Documenta.

OCTOBER: The First Decade

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

OCTOBER: The First Decade

:irc situatit( i , r l r - r b ' sp a i l

Bois, Crimp, andKrauss

Haacke:The younger people working in galleries and museums no longer kno*.

OCTOBER: The First Decade

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