Heavy Metal Be-Bop #8 Damión Reid

HEAVY METAL BE-BOP #8: DAMIN REID
21/11/2014
HEAVY METAL BE-BOP

Info
INTERVIEWS about jazz and metal
by Hank Shteamer
#8: DAMIN REID
PHOTOGRAPH : Emra Islek

[Abridged v ersion HOSTED
by Inv isible Oranges; longer cut below.]
Like prev ious HMB SUBJECT Craig Taborn, drummer Damin Reid doesnt wear his
metal fandom on his sleev e. Jazz fans know Reid as a deadly technician, whose crisp,
busy , furiously groov ing sty le perfectly complements the high-tech prog-funk
aesthetic of bandleaders such as Stev e Coleman, Rudresh Mahanthappa and Stev e
Lehman. His play ing often heats up to an aggressiv e boil, but it might make y ou think
of cutting-edge electronica before metal. So I was intrigued when a friend tipped me off
to Reids lov e of heav y music. As y oull read in this wide-ranging conv ersation, hes a
knowledgeable and OPINIONATED connoisseur of metal, who understands clearly
the sty les v arious affinities with jazz.
Damin and I met in Brookly n in May of 201 2 to talk about jazz and metal.
A Damin Reid sampler:
http://www.heavymetalbebop.com/post/29308981230/8-damion-reid
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Damin Reid: So how did y ou get started doing these interv iews?
Hank Shteamer: Well, I grew up as a metalhead in the early 90s, and then I
got deep into jazz once I got into college. For a while now, those two styles of
MUSIC have made up the majority of my listening, and I just became
curious about the connections between them. I started seeing jazz musicians
like Craig Taborn at metal shows and thought it would be fun to talk with
other people who SHARED my interests. On the surface, it might seem
weird to link these two styles, but there are all kinds of hidden affinities.
I dont think its weird, because to be honest, I think the tradition of the drums itself is
a relativ ely new tradition, and if y ou look at the technical adv ancements that hav e
HAPPENED ov er the y ears to the drum set, its a direct ascension from the
foundation that most of the jazz masters laid down. So y ou hear a lot of ev en metal
drummers talk about Buddy Rich, Tony Williams, Billy Cobham. Why is that? Thats
because Billy Cobham had great technique: rudimental, extremely fast with a lot of
cy mbal strokes. Tony Williams, in my opinion, was the first person to ev er play a blast
beat, the first person to do snare and BASS drum alternating going extremely fast.
Nobody else did that; y ou cant deny that. Extreme, ferocious technique with Tony and
Billy , and the same goes for Buddy . Someone who just had hands out of this world. It
was something y ou aspired to get when y ou play ed the drums. And then y ou look at
what metal drummers did, also incorporating foot technique with that same prowess;
the best ones at least hav e hands [Laughs]. Some drummers work primarily on their
feet and their hands are crap. But y ou look at that ascension of technique getting
better and better, and I think it all comes from the same source, so its only natural for
a drummer to think that, because a lot of the drummers that play in a lot of these
metal bands, a lot of them admit that they tried starting off as jazz musicians, and it
just didnt mesh in their community , or things didnt work out the way they wanted,
or they WANTED TO MAKE MORE MONEY and they liked play ing groov e stuff.
And then theres some political agendas as well, perspectiv es and beliefs that draw
y ou, and y ou express that.
They re both rebel musics in a way . Conceptually , where they re coming from, the
middle finger is up consistently , and I think that somebody thats really inv olv ed in
their craft, then y ou dont start looking at the label of genre; y ou start looking at
What is y our purpose as an artist? And then this becomes univ ersal. You respect
someone thats play ing instrumental [music], music with v ocals, whatev er; it doesnt
matter. If someones say ing, Fuck y ou, it resonates, and y ou respect that. So I think
thats the continuity ; I think thats why it would only be a natural [progression].
Thats just my opinion. Im not say ing thats why y ou did it, but thats why I wouldnt
ev en blink at someone that would relate the two, because thats what happened to me.
Because I didnt grow up listening to metal; it was the rev erse for me. I grew up in a
household where my mother was a CLASSICAL v ocalist and pianist and did a lot of
chorale and play ed church music and stuff, and my dad play ed more secular music;
he was play ing blues and funk and jazz. So I grew up that way , and then I went to
college and started study ing technique, play ing more jazz, play ing some pocket stuff,
and then I got exposed to metal and other musicians that play whatev er genres y ou
want to say . And that lately has been annoy ing me, the whole genre thing, because I
know its just some corporate way to sell something. Its really about where y ou come
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from, and thats why y ou sing about the things y ou sing about, thats why y ou play
the way y ou play .
Where do you first remember becoming aware of metal?
I heard it in high school, but I was the weirdo, because I went to priv ate schools and
hung out in a v ery div erse [crowd], but still all my friends were of African-American
descent. So I grew up with a lot of b-boy s, like pop-lockers, breakdancers, beatboxers,
MCs. I lov ed that culture and that community , but as a drummer, I heard Liv ing
Colour. My cousin gav e me a Liv ing Colour tape, Times Up, and I just remember losing
my wig, because the first song was a metal groov e. [Sings thrashy intro] So Times Up
came on, and I was like What the fuck?!? And as I got older, I heard other drummers
that were lay ing it down, and a friend gav e me a Slay er record, I forget which one. Im
not really a metalhead; I just lov e the music, if that makes any sense, because I didnt
grow up with [Snarly voice] Napalm Death and Slay er, and the tapes and the T-shirts. I
was into hip-hop culture like that, but as a drummer, I just respected the fact that,
heres a music that lets the drums be heard, because I said, Whoa, the drums are
connected to human beings; this is a human thing. So the fact that the drums are
important to the music meant a lot.
Because it seems like in Western classical music, the drums are more of this kind of
lacing that makes the music demonstrativ e at a good point; its not part of the music
the way y ou would expect it to be, whereas its the rev erse in African music or South
American music, where all of a sudden, the drums are there and the next thing y ou
know, y oure bobbing y our head. It might be two or three chords, whereas Western
music might hav e, like, tons of chord progressions and the drums are minimal. I
started seeing the difference, and I felt like jazz was a way of combining both of those
concepts: a bunch of harmony with the forward motion of drums. And then the first
time I heard a metal track, I was like, Wow, this is all about the the drums, and
there was a v ery specific songmaking with the drums; it wasnt just may hem. I
appreciated that. There were song formats: Youre supposed to play this amount of
32nd notes for eight bars, and then y oure supposed to switch into this. And y oure
play ing 5 /4 to this, while this person is play ing to the triplet of this. It was v ery
precise, whereas jazz most people think that its random because theres a lot of
improv isation and people are doing those things on the fly , but its based off of a grid,
so its still some of the same magic; its just a different spirit. But I appreciated that
from a drummers perspectiv e, because I like the sound of the drums and I like music
that accentuates the drums, and I think thats why I enjoy the hip-hop world that I
grew up with. But then I said, All the hip-hop drummers didnt impress me. Who
giv es a fuck about y ou? I dont want to name names, but I really didnt care for them.
I said, They re good, but whos play ing the drums? And I remember hearing Elv in
and Tony Williams and just being like, Whoa! Yes! Like, now I want to play jazzy ou
know what I mean?
Same feeling, like these are drummers that were play ing the drums, and couldnt
nobody stop them. And they made ev ery body around them sound better; y ou could
hear how they were pushing the music. Like, I hav e records, it might hav e been Tony
Williams with Jackie McLean and Lee Morgan, and y ou can hear how Lee Morgan
sounds with Art Blakey . Art Blakey has this big beat, nice; he could play the drums
well, and he pushes and he has a big sound and ev ery thing is strong. But theres
something v ery steady y ou know, like a hitmaker, just Boom! He clocks it out.
Something about Tony , he could do the same thing, but he was just ferocious with it.
He was constantly play ing with different ideas and rhy thms. He was composing parts
on the drums with the hi-hat and all these different things. So y ou talk about the
complexity of how the drum set has ev olv ed, he was one one of the first people who got
people thinking, You know, theres two legs here. We could do some things with this.
People forget that: The first person Iv e ev er seen with two bass drums was Sam
Woody ard. Duke Ellington needed that propulsion; he wanted that strong low end. And
a lot of drummers that play ed behind big bands, that was their job, to be this force,
this strength.
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And for me, in modern music, I felt that all the recording and all the clichs that the
industry wants to put on musicians killed jazz or the genre of jazz, because they
wanted ev ery body to stay loy al to this fixated grid they created for sales, which
catered to a certain clientele. And when it started to ev olv e and it started to get more
aggressiv e, then people started to run from it in a way . And of course the things that
Tony did with Lifetime, and things that Cobham did, and y oure hearing Lenny White
with Chick Corea and all those different bandsev ery body was really whipping ass
and then the acoustic bass play ers had to plug in, or y ou just get electric bass. The
sound and ev ery thing started to grow. So when I started listening to metal a little bit
through high school, just little flashes of it, I started thinking, Wow, these drummers
are really , really play ing the shit out of the drums.
But then the social aspect around the scene made me leery because being one of the few
guy s that was into that ty pe of stuff, y ou got ostracized by y our people and by the
people that y ou were try ing to go and hang with. You know what I mean? So it was
this conundrum; y ou were sitting there like, What the fuck am I doing here? Im
ov er here try ing to hang and check out this music, and they re like, Who the fuck are
y ou, and why are y ou? You feel that energy ; y ou know what that energy is. Im
like, [Perplexed] Damn, well, alright. And y our boy s go through y our tape case and
they see the Slay er tape, and ask, What are y ou, a dev il worshipper? No, y ou
douche, its not that! So I just felt like I would be a lov er of the instrument and just
respect those that I felt really showed up to crush the instrument, and that became
who I was a fan of: Those who showed up to crush. I dont care what genre y ou were in,
what they said y ou were: You were country ? if y ou showed up and smacked the shit
out of a country song and y ou were clean and y our drums sounded good and y ou got a
good soundoh, man, I would lov e y ou! I didnt care if y ou play ed with, y ou know, Tim
McGraw. It didnt matter to me! And people thought I was crazy for that. When I say
people, I mean my close friends that I grew up with. So I just kept it kind of as a quiet
little thing, like [keeping my ] tape case under the bed, all the tapes that had the
Parental Adv isory sticker on there, that y ou could peel off. Remember that shit?
Where y ou could peel it off and come home and say , Mom, this is the tape. You
couldnt do that with, like, Slay er, because the album cov er itself was just as bad!
[Laughs] So y ou had to get a dub.
I remember falling in lov e with Dav e Lombardo just because I thought that what he
did on the kit, there was some rebellion on there, but it was clean as day , and I am a
fan of those ty pes of technicians that hear the spaces in between their rhy thms, the
rests, if that makes any sense. Not just sheets of sound and shit. Because I heard
Cobham get up to 1 6th notes and whip ass, and his hands just [Roars], and Im just
like, Whoo! Thats sick. But then Lombardo, his feet were just fly ing, and it was just
clean flurries I didnt understand why Metallica was so big. I didnt ev en get it.
Because I felt like, Wow, the drummer is the guy thats usually pushing But once
again, thats the beast. Thats this machine, and it forces people to buy into a certain
thing, when y our ears and y our heart really lead.
So when I mov ed [to New York], another group that I fell in lov e with that finally took
me ov er into total drum geekdom was when I heard Meshuggah. I just lost my shit. Im
going to see them this month; Ill be there. I gotta go, just because And I saw Slay er
the last time they were here with Megadeth, at the island. Not the one with Metallica,
but the one before that. I was about to go to the one at Yankee Stadium, because I
wanted to see Lombardo whip on Lars. I just wanted to see that happen. [Laughs] I just
wanted to see it go down. How are y ou going to get onstage? Okay , y ouv e got more
hits, whatev er. But how are y ou going to phy sically get on that stage? And then,
[Lombardos] still the only guy that doesnt really use triggers! Fucking awesome, and
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it still sounds meaty , because y oure still getting the articulation because of how he
play s, technique, and also how he tunes, the ty pe of beaters he probably goes into,
multiple micsmic in, mic out, resonant side Thats how y ou do it in the studio to get
articulation, so why wouldnt it work liv e? But the triggers are just this new
phenomenon. The guitar play ers show up with their programmed sequences for y ou to
learn and then they want to hear it back liv e, so its just a way for them to get what
they gav e y ou on a computer sequence liv e. I remember hearingI forget the
drummer that play s for Megadeth now; hes a y oung guy . Hes a real clean cat: play s
his parts v ery well. I had no arguments, but when Lombardo came up there,
Lombardo was play ing all these fills, just whipping on the kit. And I was just arguing
with a bass play er before the gig came on. He was telling me that [exMars Volta
drummer] Thomas Pridgen play ed too many fills, right? And I said, Yeah, but
Thomas Pridgen has a great facility and he has a good beat, and I feel like ev en when
he does lay into it, the shit feels sick and his fills feel like they re in the pocket. I feel
like thats why y ou play a fill. Its when a fill is out of the pocket that it feels annoy ing,
y ou know what I mean? Hes like, Yeah, but y oure supposed to play the song and do
all this. After Slay ers set, Im sitting there looking at him, like, What did Lombardo
just do? It didnt sound nothing like the record. He play ed his parts from the record,
but he was just whipping on the kit. I lov e it. And he seems to be an open-minded guy
because of the collaborations hes done with other musicians that are improv isers and
stuff, and that really opened my heart too.
But when I heard Meshuggah, the first thing I thought was, Okay , heres this
ferocious bandCookie Monster v ocals is the joke that me and my friends [hav e]. But
the rhy thm, right? It just reminded me of almost like some Stev e Colemanesque stuff,
and I said, Damn! This is ridiculous. But they re play ing it hard. So I started to get
into Thomas Haake, and I started to really check his stuff out and just see what he was
up to, and he just seemed like a cool dude, lov ed play ing the kit, real technical, and it
just opened my mind up. The community has changed within the jazz drum circuit,
where it used to be about that. I would hear about how all these drummers talked
about one another, how they all subbed for each others bands, I was like, Wow, its
still all music to ev ery body . Iv e alway s wanted to be a part of a community that was
kind of like that, so I started hav ing some second-guessing about whether I was in the
right genre, because I just didnt feel the camaraderie in a way . I felt like the lov e for
being with a group of people and making music is what its about. I feel like thats the
utopia, and I didnt feel like thats what was really occurring as much [in jazz].
But the music came out of social conditions, and I feel like metal came out of a social
condition, out of Damn this; I wont do it; it doesnt make any sense to me. And people
that were writing about these existential things, and nothingness and v ery high
philosophical concepts about Who are we? and What is this? and things like that,
and atheists and agnostics and things like that, which makes sense. And then I was
like, Okay , these are the same questions that people were hav ing play ing [jazz] in the
60s and 5 0s, because there was so much bullshit going on with civ il rights. Thats
why the music had so much depth and energy to it. It wasnt just because of the fact
that these guy s were brilliant artists, it was because of the shit that they had to deal
with before they got onstage. And I feel like when y ou hear about some of these metal
bands, these guy s go and work in machine shops and lumber y ards just to make rent,
and then they show up, practice together because they lov e each other as a squad, get
onstage and y ou feel that. That is lacking, I feel. And thats why I started keeping an
ear to the ground about what was happening in metal.
So you think that camaraderie is lacking in jazz?
Heck, y eah! Just the sense of brotherhood and camaraderiewhy we play music. And I
feel like groups arent really honored any more; nobody liv es and dies with each others
problems. But when y ou hear about these bands, y ou hear about them hating each
other, lov ing each other, going through problems with one another, letting each other
go through their problems as men and coming out. You hear about corporations doing
the same shit, men that started firms and shit. Falling out with y our wife, getting a
div orce, selling the house, dealing with it, still keeping y ou on as partner, changing,
getting bought out, all this stuff that happens. Its the same concept. What happened
to the fact that when y ou hav e a group of people and y ou believ e in each other, y ou
roll out as fam; y ou let each other go through whatev er y oure going through because
y ou know that that person, when they do their thing, they re brilliant at it. And
sometimes, we go through our shit, but I feel like the academia aspect that has plagued
this social music
See, people went to college to learn how to play the instrument; they didnt go to learn
how to play the music. Thats the problem. And thats one thing I dug about hip-hop:
You read books; y ou learn how to conjugate v erbs; y ou learn imagery ; y ou learn that
in school. But when y ou rhy me, its about the knowledge that y ouv e acquired that
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makes y ou a good MC, not about the fact that y ou went to school and someone told y ou
how to rap. You see? You go to school and y ou learn y our rudiments; y ou learn how to
play the kit; y ou dev elop some technique. And then when y ou show up and somebody
say s, Lets play , y ou use all y our knowledge to create. Thats lacking; theres all of
the sudden now a school about creating, therefore some things are getting stifled and
we hav e expectations that either get exceeded or nev er get met because we think this
is what it is, instead of listening to what that artist really wants to do within his
community . And I feel like the academic element about how to play this music, jazz,
has really killed it. Because now if someone like Craig Taborn wants to do something
completely off the cuff, do something with electronics or something, theres a purist
that only wants to hear piano thats say ing that hes crazy . Someone who thinks hes
ridiculous with electronics is mad because hes not play ing with a drummer, and hes
play ing solo. You cant win out here, right? Its only because the expectations hav e
been somehow manufactured. And Im using these terms because I really do feel like
theres a machine, and its all about sales. So if the sales tell y ou, This is what y ou
need to be, then thats what y oull be.
Speaking of the lack of camaraderie, have you heard about the problems
with the Black Sabbath reunion?
[Discussion of the details]
So please dont tell me they re going to get another drummer
No, they are! And Bill wrote this whole thing about how, This is for all the
drummers that got stiffed out of their royalty payments
Whoo, Bill! Because theres so much of this shit going on, man. Theres this hierarchy
out there, and the reason I laugh is because what we do, Hank, is actually the helm.
We are the helm; we are the throne; thats where the buck is; thats where it stops. But
they want us to be the maid of the band; no, no, nowere actually the motherfuckin
boss. But the thing is, is that, Well, some drummers dont learn their harmony ; they
dont learn the craft of the music. Okay , so they put the technicality on y ou. Some
guitar play ers dont either! Some bass play ers dont! They just learn a few riffs and
thats their shit! Like, what the fuck are we talking about out here? The fact of the
matter is that the drums were the first instrument, ov er the v oice. Thats it: drums
and v oice. So thats why v ocalists and drummers are so important in a bandrock or
whatev er it is. Well, in jazz, whoev ers play ing the lead up front is treated as a
v ocalist, and when they continue to make a lot of money , whether they re composing
the songs or whatev er, they get the credit. The humility of the drummer We are the
samurai; we are the reason why y ou sleep at night; we are the reason why people say
y our name, and we are the reason why people dont come test y ou. Believ e this. And I
know it might sound Old World, but it is! And in a v ery true sense, the drummer has
to know all the parts; the drummer has to know whats happening in order to be so
insane and so supportiv e. People think that its a just a job; were just flailing. Were
just back there doing our thing and sweating and the next thing y ou know, thats it.
Oh, and then its a big deal when we ask somebody , Can y ou help me carry this?
Some drummers dont ev en ask; they just show up, set their shit up, blast, break the
shit down, throw it in the truck, go get a beer, fuck two girls, go to sleep, wake up, do it
again, then what? Then y ou mad at em! Then y ou dont want to talk to them because
y oure like, Damn, howd y ou do that? Hes a soldier, man. Theres something to
that, and theres something lacking when the drums are disrespected. To me it say s a
lot about where y our mind is in terms of play ing any ty pe of groov e-based music. It
say s a lot; it really does. And its not to take away from the prowess of all these other
instrumentalists that are great technicians and writers and composers. Im not try ing
to say that they re bad. Im just try ing to say that there has to be this relationship of
respect between both. And I dont think most people look at the drummer with that
rev erence. You understand the corporations are going to come for y ou, but if y ou dont
look out Because the corporations are only going to come for a drummer if a
drummer is bombasticIm talking about in his personality wanting to get all the
attention and become the frontman and say , Im the leader, and y ou cant deny
him. But theres a lot of people that just arent like that, that are geniuses. And, like,
let them hav e their shine! You know that y our record sold because of them; y ou know
that people come to y our shows because they know that that drummers going to bring
it. You know that thats why they showed up. So why do y ou treat them like a secondclass citizen, and why do y ou try to giv e them ev en less money ?
The reason why I said samurai is most of the time, respected soldiers are usually taken
care of, because [people] understand y our v alue. And in that society , they were the
aristocrats, ev en though they were the warriors. They picked flowers. Theres
something manly about knowing how to grow something and about knowing whats
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beautiful in nature. Theres something manly about knowing how to take care of y our
body and y our family and crops. Theres something manly about knowing what tastes
good[being a] cultiv ated indiv idual. A lot of drummers that I know are usually like
that. And theres something in society that tells y ou to treat the drummer like the
slav e, and I think its really simple: The drums remind y ou of something African, and
in this society , any thing African is just considered sub-class citizen, so a drummer is
just a sub-class citizen because hes not doing any thing of relev ance, because [Stodgy
voice], Those Negroes do nothing of relev ance. I think its a direct social connect.
Like, when Lombardo left Slay er. None of those drummers can hold a fuckin candle to
his shit. They were good, but they couldnt hold a candle to his shit. The moment he
got back in the band, Whoop! They went up like that. All of a sudden, [people] were
like, Oh man, hav e y ou heard Slay ers new record? The people that dont know shit
were just flippin. The people that knew Lombardo joined the band were happy . And
Im not say ing theres any thing wrong with people liking who they like on the drums
and ev ery thing like that. But if somebody crushes, and somebody really has this
personality , where y ou know they hav e this regal-ness about their craft, they re the
reason why y oure there. And y oure the reason why they re there; it takes two. And I
dont feel like that giv e and take is something thats usually there. People usually read
the press, they see that, okay , leader of the band, Ozzy s this and that, girls like him,
hes crazy , hes sick, so hes like, Im Black Sabbath. I dont think he feels that, but
Im say ing that people think that thats what it is, so if they can see his face, then
they re cool. Some people will show up to the concert and not ev en know that Billy s
missing, because in their mind, Black Sabbath is Ozzy . I think that that social problem
has been in music for a long time.
The reason why I brought up the whole African thing is because the drummer is the
leader and the master of the group. So y ou go to Cuba, master drummerbang!
Respect. But theres still this weirdness that happens in these cultures, because still the
musicians that play chordal instruments and do all these different things, whether
they play multiple instruments or whatev er it is, they get a certain ty pe of corporate
respect, because [people] feel like y oure play ing music in a more adv anced way . They
dont look at rhy thm as something thats adv anced. They think of rhy thm as
something thats innate; they dont look at rhy thm as something that y ou hav e to
practice at and actually be able to execute. When other people are off, that affects the
continuity of what y oure doing too. So ev ery body has to find a way to get good in
order to keep up with someone thats nailing shit too. So thats why y ou alway s hear
the joke: Ev ery things wrongits the drummers fault. Its rushing or draggingits
the drummers fault. If y oure going to blame us, and we do hold it down, and then
y oure going to get mad at that, and then y our response is, Okay , Im going to just pay
him less than ev ery one else, or Im going to try to not giv e him shine. Why does that
happen? I feel Billy for what he say s, because it happens so much in our craft as
drummers.
Like, Im not ev en going to say the artists name, I told [an] artist that I was practicing
the other day , and he said, Oh, so y ou had a protein shake. And I said, Oh, wow,
thats funny . I get y our joke. Okay , ha ha. What y oure basically say ing is, my
practicing requires phy sical fitness but y our practicing requires something cerebral?
So what Im doing doesnt require my mind, it just requires my body . Oh, really ? This
is when I just want to hand sticks to someone and say , Tell all four of y our limbs to do
this. Tell me thats not cerebral. Do this. Just do it! Since y oure so intellectual. But y ou
cant. Oh, okay , so why is my mind less? Its really a disease man. I dont know what
it is, but its plaguing music. And then on the other hand, theres people in music that
lov e drums. They say , Thats my guy . If y oure not eating, and y oure not liv ing and
y oure not liv ing
That breeds creativ ity and it breeds wealth; it breeds unity .
To get back to metal, who are some other drummers in that realm that
impress you?
Whats my man, Gene?
Hoglan?
Yep. Cause hes just this huge guy . He reminds me of, like, the dentist of metal. He
shows up and y oure looking at him, like, what? And theres just nothing but
technique coming out. And hes been in multiple bands; I cant track him. I know him
when I see him. So actually Im more interested in what hes doing than who hes
play ing with because I know ev ery body s stoked to hav e him on the kit.
Theres this other drummer that fucking floored me, and the only reason why Iv e
gotten familiar with him was because of some of the things hes done with all the
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clinicians, was Thomas Lang. Its because his technique is just insane. I lov e what he
does on the kit. More than Marco Minnemann, more than any of these other guy s. And
he just has that v ibe: I show up to crush. I come to shred. I come to blow the kit up and
leav e. I go home to my wife and kids; I go golfing, whatev er, but when I show up, I
come to do my thing. And I like that about him. He does a lot of stuff with European
pop/rock stars and a lot of experimental stuff and demonstration material, but he just
recently auditioned for Dream Theater. And they had Derek Roddy , Thomas Lang,
Marco Minnemann and Mike Mangini, who actually got it. Mike Manginis a great
musician; he play s guitar, he reads. And Thomas is a great musician as well. Thomas
was the better drummer, by the way . Thomas showed up and crushed, but they didnt
dig Thomas. You know why they didnt dig Thomas? Cause Thomas showed up to do
his job, which was crush. And they were more intimidated with Thomas, because they
were like, You know, y ou play ed all this other stuff He was throwing them! He was
play ing so much shit! And he comes from a creativ e, improv iser perspectiv e as well.
He was kind of like, I show up and play the way I play . If y ou hire me to play the way
I play , then cool. I actually think they wouldv e been better off with Thomas Lang.
Because I think that Thomas Lang wouldv e showed up, and ev ery night, he just
wouldv e been the drum god that they wanted onstage. [Mike] Portnoy is cool, and he
play s that gig v ery well. Hes a great showman, and he has great foot technique and
ev ery thing. Nobody s taking any thing from him. But I feel like Lang just showed up
and play ed that music better than any body else. It was this one epic song that they
had, and he just play ed his fills, full of intensity and a lot of great technical
information that he was throwing in, and I just didnt understand why they wouldnt
pick that guy .
And I guess thats the story of my life. Like, why isnt Slay er in the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame? Why not? I dont know why they shouldnt be. They v e got one of the best
drummers of all time that was a fucking innov ator on the kit, and y ou dont hav e that
band in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? I dont get it. All the guy s I like, ev en if it goes
to MCs or horn play ers, guy s that I think are, like, the rawest, its like, why dont we
say it? Why dont we embrace him? May be its because the machine doesnt want y ou
to. May be they dont play the game in a certain way . And I felt that in [Thomas
Langs] interv iew for the Dream Theater gig. Thomas was just kind of like, If y ou dig
it, y ou dig it. And he should be like that, because hes a badass. Because he play ed
ev ery thing correct. He was a professional, and I feel like, why not? Some people dont
like it when y ou put too many whistles and bells on it. May be thats what it is, a sense
of taste. I dont think he did; I think his whistles and bells were tasteful.
The reason why the buck almost started and stopped for me with Meshuggah was the
rhy thmic approach. I felt like it was more how I heard metal in my head. Then I
started hearing all these names for the shit: mathcore, and all this other stuff. And
they were say ing the same thing that I would hear Stev e [Coleman] or Greg [Osby ]
say , about doing complex rhy thms ov er 4/4. And that new [Meshuggah] record is
good, but I feel like they really wanted to make a point to people that they could just
play some good stuff, y ou know what I mean? Its not ObZen or Chaosphere; its not epic
like those were, where y oure just sitting there, like, Whoa, did they just really do
that? For a whole record?
The only reason I named Liv ing Colour was because it was the first tape I got at 1 3, 1 2
or something, where I put it in and I heard [Will Calhouns] double-bass drums hit me
like that. And then I went researching for it. I went through my dads record
collection, and I found some Cobham. It just sparked some shit in my brain to look for
more drums, because I heard somebody play something and then break down in the
pocket, and then the next song was more in the groov e, and then this song was punk. It
was creativ e. Thats the only reason why . Im not say ing Im a die-hard fan of
ev ery thing that they v e done, but Im definitely a fan of the fact that they managed to
pull something out of me at a y oung age that I would really be inclined to like. Based
off of my env ironment and ev ery thing that I was around, I feel like I was probably
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going to just make beats and be a b-boy and play drums for certain situations. And
then slowly I ended up mov ing on to play ing jazz drums the more I started hanging
out with Billy Higgins and getting those ty pes of gigs, and I saw the beauty and the
essence.
And I nev er had those elders tell me not to be my self. Thats why I mentioned
academia earlier, was because when I mov ed to the East Coast to go to school, it was
the first time I heard people say , Play like Roy Hay nes; play like Elv in; play like
Tain. And I said this at one point; people thought I had a bad attitude, but I said it:
Well, why dont y ou go hire him? And they looked at me like, How dare y ou? And
Im like, Well, y oure asking me to be somebody ; Im not that guy . If y ou want me to
play a rhy thm, thats different. You want me to play some information, giv e me the
rhy thm and lets play that. But when y oure getting into aesthetics and how I hear
play ing information in the cracks, and my sound, and my set-up and all that, now
y oure getting into me. Play it like Jack. To be honest, half these [drummers], the
only reason I checked them out was because people said I sounded like them, and I had
not checked their shit out that much. And then y ou would go and check that shit and
go, Wow, okay . I see it.
Any other drummers youd like to mention?
[Marv in] Smitty [Smith], for instance, is a ridiculous drummer. He has great
double-bass technique and play ed all that stuff with Stev e Coleman. When I hear the
stuff that he can do, he could easily be in a metal band and destroy it.
Mike Smith floored me, the dude from Suffocation.
Whos not in the band anymore
What?!?
[Brief discussion of Suffocation drama]
I really dug hearing him because when I started checking out the blast-beat sound, I
heard Derek Roddy and then I was researching more, and I came across Suffocation
and just heard him and I thought the shit was programmed because it was so v icious.
The dy namics of the bass drums and the snare and cy mbals Well, he uses Meinl
cy mbals as well, which are great instruments, and if y ou play them that way , they
will project and hit the mic. And I just remember seeing a liv e v ideo of him and my
jaw hit the ground. I feel like what he did for that genre, Iv e nev er seen any body
Ambidextrous with it too, just killing it for 45 minutes. And its not tense; its just
relaxed. He has technique that gets it out. And Iv e heard engineers talk about
tracking him, and thats when y ou know, and they basically are like, He is the
beginning and the end of all that is blast.
Have you ever tried playing blast beats? I have friends who love certain
elements of extreme metal, but who cant get into the blast beat. Its kind of
like an anti-groove. Its static; you cant really headbang to it.
Iv e used a little bit of it. I used a little bit of it on Greg Wards Phonic Juggernaut record.
Theres a song called This Aint in Book 3, and he specifically came to me and said, I
want y ou to use a blast beat, but I want y ou to manipulate it according to my phrases
and improv ise with it as I phrase the melody . So I learned the melody ; I learned the
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harmonic rhy thm. And he was, like, Basically blast through it, but arc it with the
music. And I said, Thats kind of raw! Youre sure about this?!? [Laughs] And he
said, Yeah, manI want y ou to blast!
For me, thats why I dig it, as a technical [tool]. Iv e tried play ing it, and I like play ing
it, but the thing is, it is static and it does take endurance and a certain technique to
really pull it off effectiv ely and also consistently , but I could see peoples musical
quarrel with it, because its not as musical as obv iously hearing some sort of
poly rhy thmic things coming from the kick and the snare and the cy mbal, and
different things that make me headbang. I think most people would nod their head to
that stuff more. Whereas the blast beat is just kind of like, y oure leaning back and
y our ey es are bugged out, and y oure sitting there in shock. But I like it because its
rebellion; its a straight F y ou to the whole thing. But I think theres a technical
element about it that just floors me, because y oure consistently keeping these notes on
this grid. Its not like y oure just play ing some free roll until y ou run out of steam.
Youre holding that until a certain part, and then y ou hav e to shift and shift, so its
technical, and I get it, but I also understand why it forces some people to lose
concentration, and also it gets boring. Just me personally , I cant listen to an entire
record of blast. I hav e to hear some drummers giv e me some shit. Come on, now!
Thats why Iv e named the drummers Iv e been naming, because they re bringing
those technical elements, but mixed with the ability to lay some things in the pocket.
And I dont know what Mike [Smith] can do, but I like him because I feel like the sound
hes going for is clean and strong. He does his fills around the kit. He has all these
different cy mbals for different sections; hes orchestrating in his own musical way
with the blast beat.
But I feel its more what the blast beat represents, and thats why I said that Tony was
the first person to do it. I feel like it was more a sound that he was going for. Because he
obv iously likes the sound of a clean roll, and to hear it oscillating like that between
snare, kick, snare, kick, and then the cy mbal that accentuates it, it brings this effect
to may be propel a song, or push a song to another lev el. Thats why I like it, for the
effect. But as the actual essence of y our band? Thats rough to me, which is why I
couldnt listen to Suffocations music the whole way through. I would listen to a few
songs, and just be sitting there like, Hes really play ing this! I hav e to think its just
the wow factor for me. But its not the same as other albums that I would listen to from
top to bottom, just because I know each song has this Chaosphere, today I could put
that shit on and let it rock from top to bottom, ev en to that little weird, backwards
interlude that they hav e at they end. You know something really epic is about to
come. The band doesnt come back in, but its like a complete backwards, or fast
forward of ev ery song that they play ed meshing together. I thought it was brilliant. I
can listen to that all the way to the end, and sometimes Im ev en patient enough on
the train ride to listen through that static, but sometimes its annoy ing, and I turn it
off.
But I feel like may be thats peoples problem with the blast beat, that its just technical
ability , and thats true; its just one technique. Its like someone that can jump really
high and dunk the ball. Can y ou make a jump shot? Do y ou hav e footwork? Can y ou
play the post? Can y ou make free throws? Can y ou do a lay -up with y our left hand?
After a while y oure like, Okay , y ou can dunk. And somebody that does that is
obv iously someone that can jump 45 inches v ertically and has the windmill or
whatev er. Thats how I look at the blast beat; their legs are extremely gifted in holding
this rhy thm, and they v e trained their fingers and their forms and wrists just to
stay Its almost like a nerv ous twitch that they control. Its like a knockout punch.
Its like, y ou know how to do it, but can y ou box? But Im curious to hear Mike Smith in
another band where hes forced to play some other music. If he has that technique, I
feel like him play ing other rhy thms and cadences would just be ridiculous, because of
the amount of power that he can produce just on that. Imagine what that would turn
into.
Do you think its possible for a single drummer to be great at playing both
jazz and metal or heavy rock?
Yes, I think it is possible because it requires discipline to do both. Like, the gig [I play ed]
last night was a piano trio gig but it was in a room that had 20 foot high ceilings. So a
drum set in there is going to obv iously swallow up the piano if I play ed like Im play ing
with some rock band. But the constraint, hav ing the proper tools, play ing brushesI
can play brushes and get a good sound out of these broom sticks or bundles, which
hav e some attack but giv e y ou a brushy sound as well, and then being able to hav e a
light sensitiv e touch with sticks. There are certain things that y ou obv iously would
not do at that v olume; certain things just require a little more intensity . Just like
running fast has more force; y oure not going to hit somebody soft when y oure
running fast. But y ou can control it; it can be contained. I think thats the challenge.
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Play ing with Robert Glasper for all those y ears, that was the biggest challenge is, he
likes drums; he likes a lot of it, but he play s the piano. And his touch isnt really that
strong, so thats also something that hes working with. So he needed me to giv e what
he wants rhy thmically and technically from the kit but be able to hav e a dy namic
range that was extremely broad with sticks, because he wants to hear that. So I think
its possible.
I just think the problem is that we pigeonhole ourselv es and genres do it too. If a
drummer shows up play ing with a jazz quartet and rock drummer sees him doing it,
hes going to immediately think hes not capable of doing this thing. Vice v ersa: If a
jazz drummer sees a metal drummer crushing at a show onstage with people moshing
in the pit, going crazy , hes just going to immediately assume that that drummer does
not hav e the ability to go and do what he just did at the Vanguard last night or
something. Its not true; its not fucking true. I think its really disrespectful to all
drummers that work hard. Some people just aesthetically dont play that way , so
thats who they are. But I think if people hav e the presence of mind to know the
nuances of a genre, then they can play . Theres certain subtleties in play ing acoustic
music that let other musicians feel that y oure sensitiv e. Theres just certain little
tricks that drummers learn all the time; its how to hit the cy mbal, how to play the
snare; its knowing where the pianissimo range is on the snare. Its not in the middle;
its toward the rim. If y ou know these things, y oure just play ing with them. And y ou
might feel like a douche all night, because y oure not hitting. You might think,
Goddammit, all this light shit But then y ou get with another band where [the
leader] actually wants y ou to kind of play , and he has the ability to keep up with y ou
technically . And then y ou get into this weird area where people start say ing, Wait a
minute, thats aggressiv e, but its dy namic, but its rhy thmic. Those are the areas I
like because theres no way y ou can pigeonhole it.
But I think its possible [to play both]. Your subtleties change; its y our decisionmaking. Its like if y ouv e been play ing one game and then y ou hav e to go and compete
and play another game. Its like the athletes that play football and baseball, or the
athletes that play basketball and football coming up in high school. You can do it, but
it [depends on] y our decision-making, the technique that it takes to execute what that
group of musicians wants to hear. Thats why these hy brid forms of music are perfect
for certain drummers, because they can improv ise but still rock out, so they feel like
they re getting both. But thats why I feel like we wouldnt hav e had Tony Williams if
there wasnt a guy that understood music, because theres records where hes play ing
strictly hi-hat. Whats that record, In a Silent Way? Time was killing; hes in the
pocket. I feel like any body s capable of doing it. I feel like if someone has the ability to
be ferocious, they definitely hav e the ability to be sensitiv e. Its just, hav e they
trained themselv es or do they want to do it?
Vinnie Colaiuta, hes an example of someone that can play it all. He can play with a
singer; he can play in a jazz trio; he can play in a fusion band, a rock band; he can play
funk. Smitty , same ty pe of cat. These are guy s that in my opinion hav e the technical
ability to pull it off. And Iv e heard people complain about them in the more sensitiv e
genres because they hav e so much to say . Okay , well, then, so then people feel like
they want to call a drummer that doesnt hav e a lot to say but then y oure missing out
on certain things. If y ou want somebody that can put it in the fifth gear
I would lov e to show up one summer and go on tour with a rock band and play my
heart out and crush, and then show up and play the Vanguard in the fall. That would
be my quintessential dream. Hell, y eah! Because its all music to me. I would put it all
on the radio; I would listen to it all. I listen to Gonzalo Rubalcaba play solo piano, and
then I listen to Bartoks Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, and then Ill turn
around and listen to Meshuggah. Why shouldnt I be able to enjoy all that shit? That
means that my musical tastebuds are div erse; thats it. I think its possible. And
any body that say s its not, I just dont think that they v e exhausted the possibilities.
Whats your history playing rock or metal?
I hav ent play ed metal. Iv e only gotten some calls to do some rock stuff with some kind
of fringe guy s. Iv e done some hip-hop and R&B ty pe of gigs with Laury n Hill and
Meshell Ndegeocello and stuff like that. Those are, like, the biggest stages Iv e play ed on
play ing for a slew of people, hitting hard and being dy namic and all that. But
play ing a rock show in a rock band, its something I really would lov e to do, and I
actually hav ent had any opportunity to really exhaust that, because I feel like people
call me to play complex, deep music. And Im honored! I dont want to stop play ing it,
but I feel like another part of me just wants to groov e and lay into something and play
it. And Im not say ing loud and shit. Thats not what Im say ing, because some of the
baddest metal drummers arent extremely fucking loud, lets be clear, because that
shit is hard! You cant play that fast if y oure play ing that fucking loud! [Laughs] You
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hav e to choose. But they are strong drummers; they do get a big full sound.
I was in Germany , and I was doing a gig with Rudresh Mahanthappa and Bunky
Green, and the whole tech staff were all metalheads. They were all tatted up, all black,
boots, the haircuts. They were all metalheads, but they were cool, because they saw
the gear that I was using: Sonor drums and my custom snare and Meinl cy mbals.
They liked the gear because they were like, Man, it sounds good in this situation, and
they gav e me dap. After the show, I guess [due to] different elements that I was
play ing in my solo, the dude walked up and say s, Man, Iv e got a metal band. I would
lov e to fly y ou ov er here to do stuff. Would y ou be down to do it? And I was just
honored, because he saw once again, Youre play ing this jazz show, but I could tell
that y ou would be down to play a metal show if y ou got the chance. Would y ou want to
do it? And I was like, Okay . I just wanted to be with a group of cool indiv iduals, just
real cool stuff. And also, it would be another push. Youre expanding y our repertoire;
its more techniques that y oure refining. Sometimes if y ou dont use those techniques,
y ou dont refine them as much. So its one of those things that I would definitely like to
do more of, or just play in a real rock situation; I lov e play ing pocket, for any thing. But
y ou know, well see.
I wanted to talk more about the nuts and bolts of your drumming: the
sounds you choosethe really big, dry, precise sound of your snare and kick
and also your rhythmic feel, which reminds me more of turbo-speed
electronica than jazz. Also, though, I was listening to an earlier record you
played on, Robert Hursts Unrehurst, Volume 1, which was probably the most
straightforwardly jazzy thing Id heard you do.
That is early me. That is under my dads wing and keepin it true, but still the way
that I was hearing ev en drum sound was coming fromIm glad y ou were talking
about turbo-speed electronica, which is the same ev en with the metal influence, which
is why I dug some of that stuff: same information just play ed faster, and clean and all
that. It came from the fact that I would hear ev en, like, Bat drums, and the Iy is this
low You know, because it comes from the ngoma, which is three drumslow,
medium and small, and the low is alway s the master drummer, because y ou can feel
it. Its this sense, which is why the bass and the drums hav e so much connection,
because the bass anchors the low end of the harmony and is play ing the tonic or root.
But its the fact that y oure hearing the bottom of the chord, and same thing with the
kit; y oure hearing the bottom pitch of the rhy thm. So it takes y our brain to where
ones going to be, but it also stimulates where y oure going to nod, somehow, because
y oure hearing those low frequencies. You could hav e all this complex going on, but
when y ou figure out where that low end is Thats one thing I got from Billy Higgins,
because I would listen to him and he alway s hav e this nice, snappy snare, and he had
a 1 6 [bass drum], but it was tuned low as fuck. So the 1 6 kept him out of may be the
bass range, for play ing a 22 or 20, which might hav e been ev en more beefy or more
round, and might hav e got in the way , frequency -wise. So thats one thing I learned
from that about getting some articulation.
But then with all the hip-hop production and stuff that I was into, I started checking
out frequencies, and when y ou start talking to a lot of great engineers that mix rock
records, they alway s talk about where stuff lies in the mix. They alway s talk about
drummers that would show up with sounds that they could easily manipulate to put it
in the mix. You could push it and ev ery thing around that sound didnt get in the way
the ov ertones, the frequencies that y ou tune at.
So on that record with Robert Hurst, I was play ing snare drums that were 4 deep, but
then I started to get into orchestral snare drums with cable snares, and I started
noticing that they were more articulate, more sensitiv e at ev ery v olume lev el and
unforgiv ing technically . It was like, Oh man, I suck! If y ou hear the old marching
snares, its just a gut snare, so thats why y ou hear more of that tom-tom sound, but
y ou get a little bit of snare. The buzz of the modern wire masks sometimes the actual
stroke, so things may sound faster than they really are. So I started checking out
[cable snares] and then I said, Man, this sounds good when y ou play pocket. So I said,
Okay , let me up the ante. So on that Robert Hurst record, I hadnt gotten to that y et,
and its funny that y oure talking about it, because it does sound more traditional in a
sense, because the information is more cross-sticks, and I was play ing all this stuff that
I had been learning in college, guy s forcing me to hav e this certain sound. But the
more I got into the technical sound of the kit and where it lay s in the mix, thats why
Im honored that y ou hear that the gear is specific, because it is. The tuning is
something that I try to do to cater to fitting it into the mix so that the engineer and the
artist will say , Oh man, thats like a v elv et cushion. And also theres the aesthetic
thing, because liv e, I like good-sounding bass drums and good cracking snares, and I
like to hear the contrast: The toms just kind of fill in, and the cy mbals, I like the
articulate sound. I used to play a lot more riv ets early , because that was the Higgins
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influence. A lot of pianists like shimmer. But the older I got, I just felt riv ets got in the
way . Because if I wanted to hit a crash, I was worried about something sizzling out of
control. And I like dry er-sounding drum heads. If y our drums are ringing that much,
if y ou play a lot of notes, y ou cant hear them. Thats why a lot of rock drummers tune
ev ery thing so dead, so y ou can hear all of those strokes, but the response isnt alway s
the best, so y oure working harder than y ou need to.
Im glad y ou hear that [my sound is deliberate], because thats something Im still
figuring out today : how to obtain a clearer sound thats unique and also something
that I feel caters to all musics, something that I feel will allow me to get a call from
Joni Mitchell or Steely Dan. I would lov e to collaborate with different ty pes of
musicians, and thats one thing I tried to think about also in the sound that I create
from the drums. I feel like thereare certain [drum] sounds that make y ou feel good.
When y ou hear an Elv in Jones drum kit, theres something about it; its his snare
sound, and his high-pitched kick and his toms, and the way that he hits ev ery thing,
and then y ou hear Bonham with this huge kick drum, but hes smacking ev ery thing
like a fucking giant, its like, Oh, wait a minutethats ridiculous! Youre hearing
these different things. Both guy s hit hard, when they need to. Bonham was just
crushing extremely hard, but he had this loose sound. These are things that stay with
y ou; sound stay s with y ou. It really does. Its what makes y ou keep a record on; its the
mix of a record. A lot of that has to do with the drums and how they re tuned, and also
with the timbre of all the other instruments. Thats what makes y ou leav e a record on.
The great engineering is obv iously half the battle, but most of it I feel is that these
musicians really get a certain sound, and thats what makes y ou leav e it on.
Its funny that you mention Elvin and Bonham. I feel like I always associate
their sounds in my mind. Theyre both really weighty, almost sluggishfeeling drummers.
You know whats funny is that Iv e heard passages in Bonhams solos that are direct
quotes of Elv in and Max. Not say ing he sounded like them v erbatim, but its obv ious
that Bonham was aware of these two guy s and respected them. But then his own thing
with that information, this whole thing, coming from the lowest floor tom all the way
to the highest floor tom, this ascending sound, which is more what a lot of horn play ers
do Whereas most drummers play in a descending fashion because it alway s goes from
high to low, Elv in would play ascending from low to high. Thats why y ou would
alway s freak out when y ou hear Elv in, because he would raise the pitches. He would
end on the snare and smack the shit out of it. Hay nes, same thing; he would hav e a lot
of that high-low control. Those guy s influenced a lot of how I hear the kick-snare thing,
how they re supposed to speak in their own way .
Its just something about the power that both [Elv in and Bonham] had, rest in peace,
that propelled those bands that they were in to stardom. Elv in basically pushed Trane
to superstardom. I dont care what nobody say s. Trane was ridiculous; we get it. But
without Elv in Jones, y ou would not be a superstar. I dont care. Elv in Jones was the
guy that pushed y ou to that point. Same goes to what Bonham did for Zeppelin. Its a
good group: great chords, they had nice little bluesy themes. But Bonham put this
sludge, this feel to it that was just big and felt like a giant walking down the street. You
just feel it, ev ery time. Theres something to that. He pushed y all to superstardom. So
thats why I think about them both in that same way , because I think they both hav e
a lot of power and a lot of presence. A lot of musicality too. They both did. But I feel like
what their sounds did to the band is what made the band. Ev en though all the
musicians were great, it was what their sound did to that.
Fortunately history has been kind to both.
I think it was because they were so much of a super power, how could y ou contain
that? I remember there was an interv iew where Ozzy said he hated to see Bonham
come jam because Bonham broke drums! [Laughs] Shit had me on the floor. He said he
lov ed him, but that guy would break drums. How do y ou break the drums?!? That guy
was that much of a super power, man. Thats what he was hearing. And back then,
they didnt hav e all the technology . Guy s had like two or three amps plugged into one
ax and they were just sitting up there looking pretty , and the drummer had to
essentially compete. And Bonham was like, Im going to make sure that people know
that we are up here crushing. And he brought it phy sically , and he was able to make
that feel good, which a lot of people cant do.
Can y ou imagine those two drummers today ? Bonham would succeed in rock, but Im
not sure Elv in would succeed in the jazz industry . We would run from that guy today ,
because most of the musicians today wouldnt hav e a sound to compete. Back then,
Stanley Turrentine had a sound that would reach the bar, Eddie Lockjaw reached the
bar, Trane reached the bar.
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Weve talked a lot about jazz and metal, but we havent gotten into the long
tradition of music that combines those two aesthetics. Do you think that
those kinds of fusions are worthwhile?
Sometimes the testosterone element of it, we get away from play ing some real
classic Jimi Hendrix play ed good ballads. We talk about Trane and Zeppelin; they all
play ed good ballads. And now I feel like the technical elements, being complex with
y our compositions, has taken away from people being able to be melodic, and say
heartfelt statements. Because we all mourn; wev e all lost someone special; we all
hopefully hav e lov ed someone. Being able to tap into that a little bit just eases the
play ing field to make things more palatable. And I think sometimes with these
hy brids, we mov e away from things being obtainable. Im not say ing dumb down; Im
say ing giv e something that inv okes that emotion. I think thats something that
happens ev en at metal shows. People go to get hit hard, but I feel like some of the best
metal bands hav e some of those songs that break down a little bit. They might giv e
y ou a minute of it. Or may be a couple beautiful chord progressions and they go back to
the v icious shit.
That kind of goes back to your question of why is Metallica more popular
than Slayer? In the end, Metallica has the more dynamic songs. As far as
fusion goes, I always think of early Mahavishnu as the band that was able to
really capture both the grit and the beauty.
For me, the guy that made me think that it was possible was Miles. Miles had the
ability to play a ballad and play something serenading better than most of the people
of his generations; he was better than some v ocalists. But he embraced the drums; he
wanted the music to kick ass. But then he would immediately take control and out of
nowhere go into some ballad. When y ou watch his liv e performances, thats one of the
first things I noticed. Right after this happens, this happens. It might be burnin, and
then itll come down to a groov ing tempo thats so bad, and then he takes it up a notch
and then back to a ballad and then takes y ou out on a nice groov e. And the next thing
y ou know, y ouv e had an experience. I feel like thats what great bands do; they take
y ou on journey s.
Thats why I like ObZen so much, because theres so much shit on that record that
breaks down, and y oure just like, Whoo! Because those guy s are great guitarists. I
think thats the best way to do it, to bring the beauty and the aggression together. I
draw from martial arts with my craft. Its about being smooth and technical at the
same time. When y ou become offensiv e, its because y oure defending y ourself. And
y oure supposed to look good when y ou practice. Thats why so many things from the
Asian culture hav e influenced me because there is this dy namic of being able to chop
somebody s head off in the most beautiful way . They sit there and practice the perfect
sword swing. It looks beautiful; it sounds beautiful; it has the perfect stroke, in order to
cut y our head off though. But they re spending hours and hours to make it look perfect
and look good, so that when it comes time to kill someone, its a beautiful kill. So if we
hav e that perspectiv e in music, well be more deadly . Some people are just about the
blood; they re not about the beauty .
I wanted to get back to electronica, which we touched on earlier.
It influenced me a lot. I was noticing that it was a lot of drum breaks and things that
y ouv e heard sped up. So it was like, Oh, y ou just take rudiments and speed them up
to the 32nd where y oud been doing the 1 6th. The duple effect. It was something I was
already starting to do any way with rhy thms. So then I started study ing Boards of
Canada, Photek, Squarepusher, Plaid, Venetian Snares. I was, like, Wow, these sounds
are things that are hard to execute as cleanly because its a [machine], but if a
human being can become a machine, that was the fixation, was being able to make
my hands and my body mov e like a machine. And then getting those sounds,
experimenting with different kinds of hats and cracked cy mbals and splashes on the
snare. Which are things that people used to do around different neighborhoods to get,
like, clap sounds. And then I started to see guy s like Johnny Rabb getting a lot of lov e
for play ing drum & bass.
It wasnt like, Okay , this is the music Im going to do. I just liked the sound of the
information and felt like it reminded me of almost what was probably the contrast
when Charlie Parker came on the scene and started play ing information in double
time, and v ery clean and articulate, like, Man, he just play ed my shit back to me
twice as fast and then put some other shit on top of it. So the element that I grew up
in, this competitiv e drummer element, it was kind of that same mentality . That ty pe
of mindset is what led me to appreciate electronica. And just how creativ e they would
be with forms, and how they werent so fixated on 1 6, 8, 32 bars. Ev ery thing was
14 / 17
21/11/2014
more open. It was more about taking these sounds and these textures and creating
them. That was more impressiv e to me than the rhy thms itself. It was more about
how they put songs together, morphed these sounds and textures together.
Electronica has been as important to the hands as metal has been to the kick. Its
funny how these two modern genres that came along are essentially almost the same
rhy thmic information that came before us but sped up. Are our brains now forcing us
to play information faster and cleaner within the same grid, to be able to play that
information twice as fast, or triple time? Some of these metal guy s are play ing
ridiculous tempos, effortless, at like 200. Thats incredible. There were may be only a
couple guy s that mightv e been able to execute that 20 y ears ago; now its standard.
Its an honor to be able to play with [people like Stev e Lehman and Rudresh
Mahanthappa] and try to adv ance y ourself to a certain point that y ou didnt ev en
know was possible, to get to that machine lev el, when y ou feel like y oure literally a
machine, where somebody could press Play on y ou. Its fun, man.
Do you ever talk about metal with other jazz musicians?
No, only the guy s that are v ery open-minded. I think some people think that metal is
actually simplistic because of its harmonic density , because its not as dense. So I feel
like a lot of musicians look at it as just a drummers hav en. They re like, Oh y eah,
y ou drummers like that. Or [Nerdy voice], Oh y eah, I liked metal when I was in high
school. A lot of people say that. But I think the reason why I leaned toward liking it a
little more is that I just respected what was being executed on the kit. I feel like so
many people would talk about the word musicality , and it alway s meant play ing
something in a v ery sensitiv e, light way . And thats not what musicality meant to
me; musicality meant play ing whats needed for the moment, and if it means that y ou
need to play something sensitiv e and light, cool; if it means y ou need to whip ass, cool.
But why is it that the person that cant ev en do whats needed for the music when y ou
need to go aggressiv e, why isnt that called unmusical? [Laughs] Thats not called
called unmusical. [Mock-serious] Thats still musical, because he couldnt get there.
It doesnt make any sense. So these are the same people that dissociate themselv es from
the music because they feel like what these musicians are doing, they re not working
towards being musical.
So theres something unmusical about hav ing good time? Iv e play ed with musicians
that are talking about music and ev ery thing being musical, and the quarter note is a
fucking catastrophe. Its just simple! Just click-click. And then y ou do something like a
dotted-quarter pattern against it and the time starts to shift. And y oure like,
Musicality seems to be subjectiv e here. I feel like its harder to talk about today still
because people look at y ou as if y oure crazy , or they look at y ou as if y ou want to play
aggressiv ely and loudly all the time. Thats not the case! Im just basically say ing, I
appreciate the fact that these [metal] guy s are executing in a v ery proper fashion.
They re clean; they hav e their songs; they hav e a message, some of them, and they
mean it. Im for that, rather than somebody whos half-assing and pussy footing
around, and thats called extremely musical, But when y oure asking them to do
something that is musical in a v ery strong way , they cant ev en step up to the plate? I
feel like musical came to mean someone that couldnt get to any kind of meat and
potatoes in their play ing, any kind of aggression or density . The guy that creates
density , its like, Oh, hes a good drummer; hes technical. Why isnt he musical?
Youre just mad because hes able to do more, and he might push y ou to do more. Some
people cant deal with the fact that somebody could push them ev en further. Theres
people that respect it from a rhy thmic standpoint, but most people just think its a
bunch of satanists and y elling like buffoons, and they feel its for high school people.
Whats your take on satanism in metal? Did you ever pay any attention to
that?
I was raised in a v ery religious family . its more about the congregationthe unity
and the concept of church. But Im not into any titles about who has what religion. I
feel like thats half the problems in the world today . I dont feel any way about it at all.
When I show up at church and my mom wants me to play , I just play . Its just a social
thing. I feel like they re actually one and the same: When people show up to that metal
concert, they re showing up to congregate. Thats church for them, to me. They show
up and express themselv es, and the world has got a foot on their neck; somebody s
oppressing them; they dont like the fact that this is happening and thats happening.
And they come to that concert to let it out; thats why people mosh. Same phy sical
human reaction; I think its directly connected. Were all humans. So if people in the
church want to shout and dance, that was a social hav en for the African-American
community because there was no other place where y ou could be free and talk freely
about stuff because y ou would be on a fucking tree tomorrow. So thats where y ou
went to talk and express y ourself and let the stress of the world leav e y our shoulders.
15 / 17
21/11/2014
So now, okay , we might not end up on trees as often but we still need a place.
Any body thats play ing music, y oure play ing a language that ev ery body
understands. Theres not a culture on the planet that doesnt understand rhy thm and
notes and v ibration; they all understand it; its phy sics. So to me, thats my religion,
play ing these damn drums, because I know that I can step into any situation and
somebody is going to feel what it is. A good person is a good person, and somebody whos
malicious is malicious. So judging somebody because they put beads around their
wrist and chant, or they put beads around their neck and pray , it doesnt mean
any thing to me. Were all reaching for the same thing, enlightenment and peace.
There are religious ceremonies ev en in Africa where there are human sacrifices,
animal sacrifices. Its a certain thing thats been in human beings for a long time:
human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, blood, the drinking of it, the preserv ation of it,
what it means. I just think when people think about what satanism is, its just a
counter to what y ou see If y ou see people that are supposed to be doing right by y ou
killing more kids and more families, its only going to make y ou say , whats the
counter reality ? More so than the counter perspectiv e is the liberation. So when y ou
break away from the confinement and find freedom and peace, may be people might
call y ou a rebel. Thats why they alway s say counterculture. Whenev er I would hear
those [metal] bands, I wouldnt actually go in that dark way ; I wouldnt get scared.
Unless See some of the audiences were [behav ing] in a way that I knew that me
showing up, just who I was, it was going to be may hem. But what I saw was a certain
willingness to try and be something that y ou werent seeing ev ery day with folks. You
were seeing people that were liv ing this perfect life, doing what they were told. And
this group of people were just finally say ing, No, I dont agree; it doesnt make sense.
And whats wrong with people that say that? Because most of the time, it doesnt make
sense.
That was the message I would get from the music. In high school, I went to a Catholic
school. And I remember my religion teacher In Catholic schools, they talk more
about Satan than any thing else. Its deep. I went to Protestant schools coming up in
elementary school and junior high; we nev er talked about Satan like that. Went to a
Catholic school; ev ery single y ear we would hav e an entire almost month dedicated to
Satan[Laughs]. Learning ev ery thing, talking about actual occurrences of people that
gav e their life ov er to Satan and feeling his touch. Iv e nev er heard any thing like that
in any other Protestant school. Iv e ev en talked to other friends who went to normal
Protestant schools. But Catholic schools? Now the academics were great; the women
were great; lots of All-American athletes in and out of there.
But it was deep, and I was checking it out, and I remember this one religion teacher,
she lov ed me, like as a person. She would come to some of my performances; she was a
genuine supporter of who I was, and I remember she saw me really pay ing attention
closely to some of the details of Satanic sy mbols and certain things. They show y ou
shit! I mean, they v e got it right there. If y ou want to learn any thing about it, just go
to a Catholic school. I said, Oh, this is interesting. And she said, Be careful. That
was here thing: Be careful, because y ou could div e into it. Think about it. So they re
study ing the adv ersary , but if y ou study the adv ersary , y ou hav e to be careful; thats
what they teach y ou. Ev ery single y ear, almost by the month, dedicated to learning
about demonic possession. As y ou got older, y ou got deeper into talking about more
mature things. When they start y ou off freshman y ear, y ou learn all the sy mbols. Its
crazy , right?
So when I started checking this stuff out, I just was sitting there like, Okay ,
interesting. This is just a counter thing. So when I went to Lithuania, there was a
museum dedicated to Satan. And I remember say ing, You guy s hav e got a museum
dedicated to Satan? And y ou know what they told me? I found it v ery interesting.
They said, We dont look at Satan as ev il; we just look at Satan as someone that y ou
hav e to outsmart. And I said, But y ouv e got a whole museum dedicated to him.
Ev ery picture, ev ery bust, ev ery thing in that museum was dedicated to his existence
and his ev olution throughout the minds of human beings.
2 years ago notes (20)
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Emra Islek [Abridged v ersion hosted by Inv isible Oranges; longer cut below.] Like
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This is hands down one of the best interv iews Iv e read about metal, jazz, and
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17 / 17

Heavy Metal Be-Bop #8 Damión Reid

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Heavy Metal Be-Bop #8 Damión Reid

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HEAVY METAL BE-BOP #8: DAMIN REID