N Trig

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist
Page 1 of 44
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Posted
May 27, 2014
Author
Rick Rodriguez
Categories
news
Tags
Microsoft, N-Trig,
Surface Pro 3, Wacom,
digitizer
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Microsoft addresses N-Trig

concerns in Reddit response
This morning, Microsoft's CVP Panos Panay along with the design,
engineering, and business leads for Surface, participated in a Reddit
AMA to answer questions about the Surface Pro 3. Unfortunately, I
wasn't able to attend, but Twitter follower Adrian Wise offered a link to
the question all of us in the SurfaceProArtist community wanted to see
addressed: why N-Trig over Wacom in the new SP3?
I had the privilege of meeting Steven Bathiche, head of the Applied
Sciences Group for Microsoft in New York last week. I listed some of
our concerns at the time and the lengthy answer below clearly
indicates he's had to time to think about the question and the
response!
http://surfaceproartist.com/blog/2014/5/27/microsoft-addresses-n-trig-concerns-in-reddit-response
12/21/2014
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The question was posted by Reddit user BluEgo:

I'm a 3D artist and proud owner of the first Surface Pro. I
believe that many artists out there have been and will be
interested to any new evolution of Surface products. You
addressed many problems related to using the tablet from an
artistic point of view, but many of them still remain imo.
1) I was surprised that you don't use Wacom Technology
anymore. Maybe there was some problem as the Surface
could be seen as a direct competitor of the Wacom
Companion. But the new pen, while more accurate, lacks of
levels of pressure. It is only 256, and while it may be enough
for digital painters working on a a small canvas, it may result
in less accurate sampling. I'm actually happy that you ditched
Wacom technology, as they currently have the monopoly,
which usually isn't a good thing... but from a user point of
view, it may be a risk to jump on the first iteration with a new
technology. Do you think the pen will be updated with more
levels of pressure during SP3's lifecycle?
1a) This pen probably will not work with applications that use
WinTab drivers only... Will this problem be solved? Currently I
can't think how it will be possible for me to use softwares like
zbrush or mudbox without pen pressure.
2) One of my bigger concerns with the first Pro was that the
screen wasn't that big, and that many applications weren't
scaling the text properly when using different DPI settings. Is
it possible to solve it in some way? Furthermore, can you add
an option in windows 8.1, to setup different DPI settings per
application?
12/21/2014
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3) The bigger resolution will probably impact performances. I

don't understand this big run to the "retina" resolution. Is it
really that important? I would have preferred the classic HD
resolution coming from the previous pro.
4) Is it true that the windows logo, being on the right oprtion
of the screen, represents a problem for right-handed artists,
as it is often pressed by mistake?
5) I would like to see a customizable on-screen keyboard (like
ArtDock), where I can put the keys I use the most in my
applications. This would be useful when using Photoshop for
example... where I can setup a mini-touch-keyboard with
ctrl+alt+shift+space buttons only. The problem I have with
existing solutions (artdock again), is that palm rejection
disables it, and I am forced to remove the hand holding the
pen from the screen, while using this on-screen buttons.
Thank you!
Hi.. this is StevieB. I anticipated the pen digitizer question.. so I
have been thinking about how to talk about it over the weekend. I
hope you and other folks find it useful. I will try to answer the rest
of your questions preceding. Below is about your Wacom and
Pressure question.
There are 3 main types of pen digitizer technologies:
Electromagnetic, passive capacitive (those conductive rubber
tipped pens that trick the digitizer into looking like a finger), and
active capacitive.
Electromagnetic works by putting a printed circuit board across
the entire device, typically situated underneath the display and its
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backlight. This is a completely separate system from the touch

digitizer that typically goes in front of the display. The circuit board
has a bunch of planar coils that emit an electromagnetic field (like
one side of a transformer). The Other side of the transformer is
located in the pen itself. As the pen approaches these fields and
coils it couples the EM signal and adds a load. This load is picked
up across multiple coils and the position of the stylus is then
interpolated. These field lines can emit 15mm or so above the
display, and thus the mechanism for hover. Data is transmitted
from the pen to the device (pressure and button data), by
modifying the frequency content of the load. To get orientation
there is typically a secondary coil/circuit.. and simple trig can
extrapolate the orientation of the pen.. this is important for later
to remove mechanical parallax. Among the three this technique
has been around the longest.
Passive stylus, works by simply acting as an extension of your
finger, by being a conductor to passively couple with the
electrostatic signal from the transmit and receive rows and
columns of the digitizer. This technique uses the same transparent
conductive lines in front of the display to do both the finger and
fake finger/stylus.
Finally, active capacitive solutions started coming into fruition in
the early 2000s. Their mode of operation is to use the same
transparent conductive lines as passive stylus does above, but
rather the pen tip injects an electrostatic signal which is picked up
by these touch capacitive lines. Think of the pen is a mini radio
and the sensing lines in front of the display the device are little
antennas. The junction(s) (where the rows and columns of the
transparent conducting lines cross) which receives the strongest
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signal is correlated to the position of the pen. To do this, the pen

typically needs a battery, but the pen can emit all kinds of signals
from buttons, pressure, and other. We purchased a really fantastic
active capacitive pen and touch technology a couple years ago:
you may remember the company that did the CNN election
boards.. Perceptive Pixel. This is no doubt the most fantastic pen
technology around for large non-mobile screens. Active capacitive
field is defiantly showing a lot of activity by a number of different
touch makers.. cause it is a natural extension of touch technology
and its integration with the touch solution.
Now lets go into what makes a great stylus from a hardware
perceptive : 1) Precision is king. The more accurate and consistent
the pen tip is to the actual ink of the display the more natural and
more accurate you as an artist and user are able to execute. a. The
Precision problem is broken down into 3 categories: i. Visual
Parallax: from pen tip to ink on screen. This is where you think the
pen tip is. ii. Electronic parallax: from pen tip to digitizer and
where the digester thinks the pen tip actually is.
iii. Digitizer precision and linearity across the entire screen. 2) Feel
and sound: should sound and feel like writing on paper. 3) Pen
weight, feel, and ergonomics. 4) Consistent and accurate pressure
sensitivity 5) Buttons for switching modes (erase, selection, and
other commands) 6) Latency: the lag of ink behind the pen tip
(highly app dependent) good developers can keep this number
to a minimum. 7) Palm detection so the computer can reject false
touches. 8) Device Integration: how it fits, and the industrial design
requirements.
Now that we have a bit of a background of the different popular
pen digitizer options and the hardware characteristics of what
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makes a good pen. Lets go into a brief pros and cons of each of
these (I am gonna skip passive stylus as it is still offers an obvious
compromise in experience for our current applications [for now]).
But before we begin, please let me say first none of these 3
options are generally more superior than one another. It all
depends on the application and even more importantly the
implementation/execution of technology. The performance of any
one of these technologies is highly dependent on how thoughtful,
careful, the engineering put into by the device makers to integrate
the digitizer system. I have seen some really poor
implementations of all 3 of these solutions above by various
device makers. Using the brand of technology does not guarantee
performance in the least bit.
Electromagnetic Stylus: 1) Precision: This can be very good for
electromagnetics but it is highly dependent on implementation. To
get the corners working well, and avoid non-linearity, the digitizer
sitting behind the display must extend slightly beyond the display.
Also metal objects or magnetics objects near the digitizer or in
front of even in the device greatly effect noise and performance.
This highly constraints the device maker from having a certain
boarder size, and also the types of materials they use on the
device and in the pen. Because magnetic fields shift with the
environment, you will see drift and offsets The device maker
must do a really good job of calibrating the device.. and if the user
puts something infront of the device (say a case that has metal in
it), then they must be able to do the same level of calibration.
Outside of these constraints, EM pen can give very good results. 2)
Visual Parallax: this just depends on thickness the cover glass is
and none of the technologies really have an advantage of
disadvantage here. 3) Electronic parallax: because the EM digitizer
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is buried behind the display and the coils are not located the tip of
the pen, the digitizer must calculate the orientation of the pen and
translate position from that this is really never perfect and will
often be dependent on where you are on the display.. so it is not a
single mathematical transform for all points on the display.. it can
be highly complex.. most of the time, the simple route is what is
taken. 4) Digitizer precision and linearity across the entire screen:
best way to test this.. is take ruler and draw straight diagonal lines
across the display. Note how the lines are never really straight
this is very hard to do. 5) Feel and sound: Typically today we work
with various materials to change the coefficient of static and
dynamic friction of the tip on glass.. but there are other
techniques we are working on to make this even better no matter
what pen technology is used. 6) Pen weight, feel, and ergonomics.
Because it is magnetic based the pen cannot be made out of
metal. EM stylus has all kinds of shapes and sizes from really
thin and uncomfortable (but can be docked) to ones that feel like a
pen. The pro here is that the pen does not need batteries. 7)
Consistent and accurate pressure sensitivity: generally known to
do a great job. This is much more about how the pressure curve
looks like than the number of bits I will explain below. 8) Buttons
for switching modes (erase, selection, and other commands):
because the pen and modify the signals actively (powered by the
coils).. it can communicate buttons and pressure information. 9)
Latency: the lag of ink behind the pen tip (highly app dependent)
good developers can keep this number to a minimum. 10) Palm
detection so the computer can reject false touches: does not really
have advantage of active capacitive.. but over passive stylus it
does. 11) Device Integration: how it fits, and the industrial design
requirements: because the pen digitizer is a separate digitizer
from the touch, this solution will add anywhere between 0.4-1mm
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in thickness, a few mm around the bezel of the device, and a few

10s of grams of weight. It is a bit harder ti integrate into the
device cause of the constraints around materials and mechanics.
Active Capacitive Stylus: 1) Precision: in the past I have seen some
not so good implementations here, but I am so pumped to see our
current results in Pro3. We really did move the mark here. The Pen
is really much more precise, linear, and linear across the entire
device. The first comment I hear from artists when they use the
device, is how precise the pen is. 2) Visual Parallax: this just
depends on thickness the cover glass is and none of the
technologies really have an advantage of disadvantage here. In
Pro 3 we have dropped the optical parallax to .75mm.. this one of
the lowest parallax I have seen anywhere for inking tablets. This
means as you move your head around your pen tip, the pen tip
stays closer to the ink. 3) Electronic parallax: because the antenna
lines are just behind the cover glass (for us that is .55mm thick!)
the electronic parallax is further reduced.. and this is one of the
reasons our pen feels more accurate. 4) Digitizer precision and
linearity across the entire screen: do the ruler test! 5) Feel and
sound: We are using new materials to change the dynamic and
static friction of the pen tip. The result is a more paper like feel. As
an industry we can do better.. but it is going to have to go to a
different mechanism.. more on that later
6) Pen weight, feel,
and ergonomics. Because the signal emits from the tip of the pen,
metal objects in the body do not effect performance.. this is why
we were able to do a beautiful anodized aluminum pen, that feels
like a high quality pen in hand. Now we do need a battery, but the
advantage of a battery is that one can emit a more powerful signal
for other functions.. like click note: click the top of the pen once
and OneNote automatically gets pulled open (even over the lock
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screen [secured]).. and double click and you get the acetate layer
for clipping out portions of the screen into OneNote pretty
neat!.. and you can hold the pen about 3-5 feet away to do that
and you cannot do such an experience if you did not have a
battery. 7) Consistent and accurate pressure sensitivity: just as
good as our previous implementations.. as good as they come in
my opinion. More on that below. 8) Buttons for switching modes
(erase, selection, and other commands): because the pen is
powered it can emit all kinds of commands via its emitted signals
(buttons, pressure information, click note). 9) Latency: the lag of
ink behind the pen tip (highly app dependent) good developers
can keep this number to a minimum. We have one caveat during
hover.. while our latency is still best in class when you are inking,
you may notice a bit of a lag during hover.. but only during hover
mode.. 10) Palm detection so the computer can reject false
touches: about the same as EM. 11) Device Integration: Active
capacitive digitizer are integrated into the touch controller, and
use the same touch sensing lines. This is a fantastic form of
integration, which makes for a thinner and lighter device. Also
there are less restriction on materials.. for example our Type
Keyboard clicks into the bottom portion of the device bezels via
magnetics.. this would really be a bad thing for an EM digitizer.
Pressure I have heard a few folks worry about the 256 pressure
levels vs. 1024... One can claim absurd amounts of resolution
10,12,14,16 bits.. whatever.. but in the end eventhough system is
spitting out a 10 or 16 bit number does not mean there is a 10 or
16 bits worth of useful information there.. just like an overspeced
digital camera.. the sensor is 20 megapixels.. does not mean the
resultant image is 20 megapixels worth of information. You can do
this experiment yourself.. I did it over the weekend to try to prove
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a point to my friends: I took the best known a EM based device I

know of and compared it to Pro 3. I started by first downloading
and installing a Microsoft PowerTool software called digiInfo..
this allows you to record and see Windows messages I set the
software to record pressure on both device. And then a built a
small rig to hold the stylus above the digitizer with a about 50
grams downward pressure. Recorded the data of the static
pressure.. imported to excel and did some statistics.. here is what
I saw: the 1024 pressure tip static-pressure-number had a
standard deviation 3 times greater than that of the 256 pressure
tip. In end, the performance was the same.. eventhough one had 2
bits less reported info. This makes a lot of sense.. let me put it
another way. The Pro 3 pen measures from 10grams-400 grams of
pressure and maps 256 levels to that the mapping is nonlinear..
cause the human hand force activation is non-linear but one can
approximate about 1-1.8 grams per level. The 10 bit pen.. goes
from 10-500 grams.. and supposedly does about ~0.4 grams.
Think about both those numbers and that is both super super
sensitive.. the best weight scale I have can do .1 gram
increments. The only reason it works is cause it averages the
heck out of the numbers which adds a considerable amount of
lag.. this lag one cannot do on a stylus.. so you are stuck with a
nosier signal comparatively in a stylus. With any new stylus there
is a difference in the force curve that you have to get used to
and that is likely what people will notice.. not the difference in bit
resolution. We are going to make that easier for you by later giving
you a piece of software that allows you to map your own force
curve! I encourage you to get one of those scales and try to
control it to the .1 grams.. will shed some light on the topic. The
feedback from artists I have heard.. is that they do not see a
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difference.. and that is cause really the resultant info is not

different.
WinTab: yes we have wintab driver support. See the link below to
download and install it for pro3. In the future I hope apps start
using the more modern APIs.. Wintab is old and outdated.. adds
latency, and inserts itself in the pen path..
http://www.ntrig.com/Content.aspx?Page=Downloads_Drivers
select the windows 8.1 option.
DPI You are right for higher DPI screens a number of the older
desktop applications are not DPI aware. Things are getting better
though. Windows 8.1 supports different scalars nor for different
simultaneous monitors.
Retina: Anywhere between 190-300 dpi is a good place to be for
tablets.. people hold them closer and you really want to avoid
seeing jaggy lines.. but over specing the screen here can be
dangerous and we are already seeing people going beyond 300
DPI.. there is not much benefit at all.. and in the end if not done
right can cause more harm.I love our screen 100% SRGB and
high contrast.. combined with great DPI. Balanced approach.
Home Button Heard some feedback on people pressing by
mistake.. we are definitely looking into it.
Custom Keyboard.. Good feedback.. I agree.
Hope you find this helpful.. sorry it was a bit long :) StevieB
Newer: SurfaceProArtist on Surfacegeeks podcast
Older: Hang in
there, true believers...
12/21/2014
Comments (42)
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Samantha Nelson
Page 12 of 44
Post Comment
6 months ago
I feel like I just got water boarded by information. The

questions were simple and while I understand that some
want an lengthy spew on types of pens, it doesn't help
regular consumers who want simple answers to simple
questions.
uallommenuma .
6 months ago
1 like
Executive Summary:
Wacom is no better than N-Trig in the places where it
matters, except that Wacom has no hover lag, and
has better Wintab support (because, of course,
Wacom created Wintab). Their styluses also do not
need batteries.
12/21/2014
Page 13 of 44
N-Trig draws straighter lines, works better at the

corners, reports more precise pressure levels (though
it has less pressure levels than Wacom, Wacom's
pressure-sensing is less precise), and has less
parallax because the digitizer is closer to the glass
than Wacom's. Their styluses use batteries, which
allow for longer-range communication of button
presses.
josher
6 months ago
I wanted a summary so I skipped the detailed

information, it's not difficult to do. If you're speaking
for regular consumers than 256 pressures are
enough.
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
You're correct, but even regular consumers

may want to use a particular application that is
not currently working properly.
Bret A Melvin
6 months ago
The camera megapixel comparison made a LOT of sense to

me. It's not about the "levels", it's about how the
applications and the hardware use them together. Just
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Page 14 of 44
because it has a higher spec doesn't necessarily mean that

it's superior...sounds reasonable at least in theory. (HTC did
this with their best-in-class mobile camera on the HTC One actually LOWERED the megapixel rating, but increased the
sensor I believe - meaning it was actually able to USE more
of the pixels. Takes AMAZING pictures).
For those wanting a further comparison, take the Samsung
Galaxy Note (one of my favorite products). It's rated at the
famed 1024 pressure levels, as is the Surface Pro 2 (which I
also have). Actually, you can even use the same pens
between devices. But, open up Sketchbook Pro on both
platforms and notice the startling difference. Android
cannot in any meaningful sense replicate the 1024 pressure
levels that their pen reports. Much of that is due to
hardware and software.
I gotta say, I'm holding out hope that Microsoft is on to
something here. I have no philosophical problems
whatsoever in regards to needing a powered device if that
powered device provides a superior experience. (Active
pickups on my bass guitar vs. passive - HUGE improvement
in control and fidelity)
At the very least, I'm encouraged that their decision to
switch to N-Trig was ostensibly about more than just some
rumored feud with Wacom. It appears to have been
because they truly believed it was the better technology.
Good for them!
Rui Mota
6 months ago
12/21/2014
Page 15 of 44
Big walls tend to be there to hide something... cant shake

the feeling getting slimmer was the purpose of the change
to Ntrig. The lack of working drivers with the main art
software tools speaks much louder than this lengthy reply.
Microsoft toke months to get winTab drivers for the original
surface and that was with wacom hardware that already
worked in non surface machines. Worrisome.
Alex Cheparev
6 months ago
I don't understand what he meant we have WinTab drivers?

Rick used the drivers from the ntrig website and said they
didn't work with Mudbox.
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
True. I know they're scrambling to improve the

current situation, but right now compatibility is pretty
much limited to Photoshop and that will no longer be
necessary once the next version of CC is released
sometime around the time of the SP3's release.
Ro Uso
6 months ago
These are great questions.
Mario Baldi
6 months ago
12/21/2014
Page 16 of 44
Thanks man! I did those questions after reading both

Rick and Gabe's first impressions :)
ace malone
6 months ago
yeah, something about getting bombarded with a long

technical post (while i like it as a tech geek)
while sidestepping some of the questions just feels evasive.
have no problems switching and trying out other
technologies, as i have had worked with numerous
ntrigs/yiynovas/huions/ect. in the past ... but just would
really like to see the a simple yes/no
on the following issues with ntrigs:
1) the surface team kept replying to those people asking for
zbrush/mudbox support that they have wintab
drivers. but as rick said below, they're not working. so that's
a big strike one. very much would like
to know how those latest wintab drivers work for mishief
and corel painter.
2) does it still produce very warbly 'straight lines' when
doing slow methodological strokes? see youtube videos
like 'slow n trig drawing/tracing' for reference.
3) gabe metioned it in his PA post, but keeps getting glossed
over in other MS related sites. navigating
through menus with the ntrig pen felt like molasses and
was lagging behind. is it present in all resource-intensive
creative programs like photoshop? apprently its just fine
with light stuff like onenote.
12/21/2014
Page 17 of 44
really not hating on n-trig and the Surface Pro 3. i want it to

to challenge wacoms' perceived monopoly, and overall
digitizer prices start to get cheaper. as of the latest ntrig i've
tried on the last sony's, would still prefer wacom's
advantages and disadvantages over ntrig's. kept presenting
these problems because i would very much like them to be
fixed, improved, and succeed.
btw rick, will only have a very limited time in the US, and i
can't buy surfaces in my home country where they aren't
officially sold. is there any way i can contact MS to purchase
a SP3 unit (if i decide to buy one pending on your unbiased
reviews) a few days before they officially roll out on june
20th? perhaps can present to them return date on travelling
documents.
thanks for the hard work.
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
The problem with "straight answers" is that the

information may change between now and shipping
date and even if the issues aren't addressed right
away, they MAY be fixed altogether sometime
thereafter.
But I can give you some straight answers to your
questions:
1) The wintab driver currently doesn't work with
Mischief. I haven't tested Painter yet, but I assume it
won't work there either. I really think the currently
12/21/2014
Page 18 of 44
available version was a Photoshop specific fix.

2) Sometimes, but it is software dependent. "Warbly"
strokes are easily fixed with a little stabilization in
Manga Studio. They don't seem to show up in
Sketchbook Pro. I don't know how to vary the amount
of brush smoothing PS applies, so some strokes do
look ragged.
3) I haven't noticed performance issues. The issue is
hover lag. You don't need to wait for the cursor to
catch up. Wherever you point is where you will begin
to draw or select. With stabilization set very high, you
will see a delay between the physical stroke and the
screen drawing.
I can't help with the MS purchase. Sorry.
ace malone
6 months ago
thanks a lot for the quick replies rick! :)

now i'm quite torn. i love the screen size,
weight reduction, and the positive
improvements with the pen with the SP3. even
if i have to pay a lot for shipping, SP3 is still a
very tempting upgrade over my SP1.
your answers on the issues eased my mind a
bit. what would remain is the question of
software support. while its very much possible
they would have a fix for the whole lot of other
creative programs in the weeks and months to
come, the timing is still uncertain. that, and the
12/21/2014
Page 19 of 44
inevitable release of SP4 (it wasn't even a year

passed after SP2 right?) it doesn't hurt that the
SP2 prices should go down either.
in your personal opinion, should i just upgrade
to a SP2 right now so i can use my programs
right out of the box; or does the complete
package improvements of the SP3 makes it
worth it to wait for drivers? (bought my SP1
when it still didn't have the pressure sensitivity
drivers)
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
If you've already got a Surface Pro 1, I

don't think it will hurt to wait. The SP2 is
no longer in the Microsoft Store and it
has always seemed to be in short supply,
so there may not be big discounts to be
had there. I wouldn't be surprised if
Samsung, Lenovo and Wacom jump back
into the fray in the not-too-distant future
either.
Ro Uso
6 months ago
You can tell from his answers that they try to deflect the
problem of ntrig shortcomings with all the technical and
12/21/2014
Page 20 of 44
long winded information used to confuse and make us

become unfocused of what the questions were.
Ro Uso
6 months ago
All he has to say is that ntrig is not as good as Wacom

currently.
Steven Bagatzky
6 months ago
If and only if someone (who might be Microsoft) comes up

with a relieable artdock-like custom keyboard solution the
surface pro 3 (or any other tablet with no other
customizable hard- or software input options) becomes
interesting to me.
I've bought a couple of tablets/convertibles in the past and
returned most of them simply because i wasn't able to set
up a workflow where i didn't feel handicapped by the lack
of a physical keyboard. The best work experience i was able
to get on a tablet was through mapping shortcuts on
gamepad buttons, or a usb mini numpad, which i then
taped to the back/side of the tablet. I also once soldered a
custom 6 button keyboard which i put into a wooden frame
made in a way to "perfectly" fit on the edge of my EP121
and which would sit right over the usb-port.
While all of that worked somewhat, it didn't feel great and
certainly never good enough for serious workloads.
So if Microsoft really wants to make the Surface Pro a
device for artists there's no way around customizable input
12/21/2014
Page 21 of 44
options.
Until then i'm bound to my desk to work on my 24hd-t.
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
Have you tried using a mini bluetooth keyboard with

a tablet? Works great and you can position it
anywhere you like without it interfering with your
display.
Steven Bagatzky
6 months ago
Oh yes i did! My issue there would be that the

bluetooth keyboard would often fall off the
couch when i moved around, or it fell of the
arm rest (until i used duct tape to hold it in
place). The best solution i came up with for the
cordless keyboard was to duct tape it on a
strap/belt which i put on my upper leg and
thereby was able to work somewhat
comfortably on the couch for a bit (legs up,
tablet resting on the legs, keyboard on my left
upper leg).
For true mobile use (standing or walking,
resting the tablet on my left arm while drawing
with the right) unfortunately none of my
custom builds really worked out for me.
12/21/2014
ace malone
Page 22 of 44
6 months ago
try out this controller:

http://www.amazon.com/AIMON-PS-Wireless-MousePC-PS3/dp/B0044B6WYE
have used it for years for gaming, but tried it for
photoshop and other programs and it works great for
me.
i use it without the mouse, just the wand-like
controller on the left hand in various lazy positions
while using the stylus
on the right. it uses an AA battery, quite light, and can
easily map out each of its buttons (even four gesture
motions of up,down,left,right). normally the thumb
stick controls my brush size (left,right) and zoom (up,
down) while trigger buttons on the top end serve as
space (hand) and alt-function. while the rest of the
face keys are whatever i use often on that particular
program (brush/pen/clone/ect.) undo / redo is done
with left / right gesture swipes, while select/deselect
is done with up/down swipes. try out this controller:
http://www.amazon.com/AIMON-PS-Wireless-MousePC-PS3/dp/B0044B6WYE
have used it for years for gaming, but tried it for
photoshop and other programs and it works great for
me.
i use it without the mouse, just the wand-like
controller on the left hand in various lazy positions
while using the stylus
12/21/2014
Page 23 of 44
on the right. it uses an AA battery, quite light, and can

easily map out each of its buttons (even four gesture
motions of up,down,left,right) normally the thumb
stick controls my brush size (left,right) and zoom (up,
down) while trigger buttons on the top end serve as
space (hand) and alt-function. while the rest of the
face keys are whatever i use often on that particular
program (brush/pen/clone/ect.) maybe i'll post an
image of my portable setup sometime.
Sean Adams
6 months ago
i think some people are not giving Microsoft a fair chance

here. Any answer other than "push this button for world
peace" is being met with skepticism.
Microsoft actually did answer the question pretty directly
several times in different ways in this lengthy response.
Basically, Digitizer issues come from the software not being
compatible with the hardware.
I find it puzzling that people have a problem buying
hardware that doesn't support increasingly dated software
but have no problem buying software that is just as
expensive as some hardware but becomes unusable if they
upgrade their systems.
Is there anybody in the Zbrush forums say "hey, we spend
nearly a grand on your software, can we get broader
support?"...
12/21/2014
ace malone
Page 24 of 44
6 months ago
nope. they just kept saying 'we have wintab drivers',

when asked on specific programs during the reddit
ama, when they don't currently work.
and yes, we have also been posting on the software
sites as well. hopefully they can be updated soon as
well. but you have to realize that aside from
photoshop (which was just recently supported),
manga studio, and sketchbook their software support
is quite bare and not as MS would have like people to
believe. its more of a chicken and an egg scenario.
which comes first. say what you will about the
advantages and disadvantages of wacom over ntrig;
they clearly have an overwhelming majority when it
comes to professional use... and i've been around
animation / video editing / graphic design firms. its
not surprising that most creative programs support
the most widely used hardware. digital artists are
already considered a niche market, and those that
use ntrig hardware are fewer.
Sean Adams
6 months ago
The call for modern programs to support

beyond Wintab has been out for the better part
of a decade. I think if Mudbox integrates it well,
it might spur Zbrush to finally put some effort
into it.
12/21/2014
Page 25 of 44
Microsoft touting they have Wintab drivers

available is not them saying that the drivers
availability fixes the issue. They are saying that
the drivers that need to be in place for
individual software makers to improve the
experience have already been released.
Nobody is asking Zbrush to immediately recode
its software. Simply do what is necessary to
improve the experience using the fix. The ball
in is in the software makers hands right now.
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
ZBrush users need to step up and insist

that Pixologic help Microsoft and N-Trig
get the Wintab drivers working properly.
ace malone
6 months ago
and that's just it. MS sidestepped direct

questions if program
x,z,z works in this point in time. which
they do not. it would have been better if
they just said
the ball is all on the developers side,
instead of saying something vague and
potentially misunderstood.
12/21/2014
Page 26 of 44
now, as professional artist who uses Pro1

for on the go work; would you pick
something that's guaranteed to run the
programs you use (SP2) or something
that's 'potentially' better (SP3) when
software support comes ... of which MS is
saying they have no control over?
leaning more and more on SP2 or other
products instead. its hard to put faith on
a device's could and should's when there
is no guarantee nor timeframe when the
broader support should come. besides,
time frames for new surfaces are getting
faster, less than a year from the previous
generation. maybe widespread support
will come when SP4 is already near to
ship.
Sean Adams
6 months ago
Microsoft didn't sidestep the issue.

The majority of users and
interested parties have known that
Zbrush and other software don't
work with N-Trig. It isn't the
responsibility of Microsoft to test
every possible software for
compatibility. That would be
12/21/2014
Page 27 of 44
insane. It is up to the respective

software makers to ensure that
there software has the broadest
hardware compatibility because
increased compatibility will grow
the user base. It is in their best
interests. It is time for Zbrush to
step up and finally address a
recurrent request/gripe in their
community or for another
company to push Zbrush into
obsolescence by supporting
relevant technologies.
ace
malone
6 months ago
when somebody asks you

'can your product run
zbrush?' to which you
answer is: 'we have wintab
drivers' , when they should
really be saying "no, it doesn't
work, ask pixologic" that's
sidestepping the issue.
yes, a large amount of artists
know that zbrush doesn't
work with ntrig, but how
12/21/2014
Page 28 of 44
about those who are new to

the issue? those who have
never tried ntrig before? new
budding artists that will just
start using a digitizer? an
answer like that is very
misleading. and whats even
sadder is that they kept
repeating the same
deceptive answer during the
AMA, and other MS-affiliated
sites.
people are asking specific
program incompatibilities,
because either they were
unaware of ntrigs or haven't
had experience with ntigs
before or wasn't sure how
did the latest ntrig fare. you
wouldn't need to ask
otherwise.
'easing the minds' of these
people unfamiliar with the
tech by saying 'we have
wintab drivers' is very, very
irresponsible and can
potentially spell trouble for
them in the future when
people buy a $1000-range
12/21/2014
Page 29 of 44
machine only to find out

they don't work with what
they bought it for.
Sean
Adams
6
months
ago
You response is one

that presumes that a
customers due
diligence begins and
ends with Microsoft,
when that is most
definitely not the case.
Microsoft is not the
source of Zbrushs
incompatibility issues.
Pixologic is.
Being upset that
Microsoft
"sidestepped" a
question that should
have been leveled at
Pixologic from the
beginning is
counterproductive.
12/21/2014
Page 30 of 44
It is not Microsofts
responsibility to test
every possible
program for
compatibility. As I said
before, that would be
insane. In the question
of whether or not any
given program is
compatible with a
Microsoft product,
Microsoft is a 3rd
party. Anyone making
purchasing decisions
based solely on the
word of a 3rd party, in
the paraphrased
words of Steve Jobs, is
'doing it wrong'.
Microsoft gave a direct
answer to the
question by stating
what they have done
to ensure
compatibility was
possible.
The answer that really
matters is what
Pixologic has to say
12/21/2014
Page 31 of 44
about the issue and if

people were more
concerned with
lighting a fire under
Pixologics feet than
with whether
Microsoft didn't say
what people wanted
to hear in response to
a question that should
have been asked of
the 1st party, perhaps
they could realize
what a moot point
looking for Microsofts
response is...
ace malone
6 months ago
we can argue exposition all day my friend; but a

misleading answer to a very straight question is
deceptive
and irresponsible, no sides about it.
and yes, it doesn't fall on MS to test for every
program compatibility. but surely you must realize
that the informed diligence goes both ways. do you
think that the surface engineers were unaware of the
current advantages and limitations of ntrig especially
with regards to wintab drivers? they clearly have
12/21/2014
Page 32 of 44
demonstrated much knowledge as such in their long

and technical post. of which for such a lengthy, indepth answer with regards to the pen hardware, they
had a very short and vague one about the driver.
they clearly had to push adobe themselves to make it
compatible with photoshop just recently. and they
clearly had a lot of questions specifically involving
zbrush and other wintab programs. so surely, they
have must been aware of this situation with ntrig. do
you not think that a more prudent answer from
people in the know should be compatibility falls in the
hands of the software makers, not us ?. is it not better
for them to be upfront about it than rather risk
backlash from people that were misinformed with
such a statement?
by not telling how it really is, new artists/buyers/
those unfamiliar will ntrig will go on and eat a smooth
answer such as 'we have wintab drivers'. we both
know so much now about these technologies, but is it
that hard to imagine how these new people would
like to ask a manufacturer directly and are unaware
that its all on the software provider's side? does it
seem unreasonable to you that MS should properly
inform these unfamiliar artists that they should be
asking the software provider and not them?
and yes, people should just not ask MS for
compatibility. and for that i'm happy about what's
rick's been doing here and putting it in the forefront
and in the limelight. however, it saddens me to see
12/21/2014
Page 33 of 44
the same answer and quote over and over again on

several MS-affiliated sites, appeasing the new and
misinformed artists, and are certainly not getting the
clear information on those fronts.
Sean Adams
6 months ago
If your argument is about informing artists

then it is in the artists best interests to know to
whom to forward questions of compatibility to.
This is a "man in the mirror" situation. We can
look at all the ways somebody else did wrong
or we can correct our own mistakes.
Any artist "misinformed" by Microsoft first and
foremost should learn they were not the party
to ask their questions of compatibility. Had
questions been directed there in the first place,
there would have been no chance to be
"misinformed" from another source.
If your argument is about the need for
consumers to have accurate information, then
nothing is more important than identifying the
correct place to obtain such. As long as you
continue to try to press the opinion that
Microsoft sidestepped a question you take your
focus away from what is supposed to be your
point.
At which point, it stops being your point.
12/21/2014
Page 34 of 44
you're right, we can go on forever about

whether or not Microsoft is at fault for
"sidestepping" questions. That would be us
venting our opinions on the topic.
The fact is that any Zbrush user who is
misinformed in their decision to purchase the
Surface Pro 3 based on compatibility of the
software with the hardware they ordered is a
user that failed to contact Pixologic, the makers
of Zbrush software. Period.
ace malone
6 months ago
yes, it seems we have to agree to

disagree on the merits and responsibility
of said compatibility.
you and i will never see eye to eye when
it comes to proper responsibilities of
suppliers and buyers.
you yourself has said that "it is the
artists' best interests to know whom to
forward questions of compatibility to" is
it not only proper that MS should be
forthcoming to point those new and
unfamiliar people to the right direction?
instead of saying something potentially
misunderstood to its customers?
12/21/2014
Page 35 of 44
i am in no way taking away from the

responsibility of buyers that they should
be aware of these important things; and
yes, you are right, it is a fact that those
users would have failed to ask the proper
party if they bought it and it doesn't
work, no arguing there. however, the
other side of the coin should and would
also be held accountable; especially
when they have several affiliated
websites that keep repeating the same
easily misunderstood message, not
telling the unaccustomed artists where
they should actually ask, appeasing them
with something vague as 'we have
drivers'
i love the surface pro. i really do. i
wouldn't have bought my pro 1 even
before it had pressure sensitivity
otherwise. it has and still serves me well
and good. but i say this in a professional
capacity: answers and wordings like that
can, and will get you in trouble. i only
mean ever meant to prevent confusion
among new ntrig artists, by pointing
them in the right direction whenever MS
states the same vague answer. and to
actually help out MS avoid a potential
backlash with such mindset and actions.
sure, it may mean nothing at all to you,
12/21/2014
Page 36 of 44
but from where i'm from, its just sound

business practice.
Sean Adams
6 months ago
There are some people who do not

have some basics down and kind
of float based on general or
laymen understanding.
To anyone who is properly versed
in the basics of programming for
specific operating systems, it is a
given that compatibility issues are
the responsibility of the software
coders and not the OS designers.
You're suggesting that Microsoft
should have given an answer that
satisfied users at every level of
understanding. While admirable if
achieved, that's nearly impossible
to do. So I get your wish to appeal
to laymen.
The problem is that the forum for
this response and the guests
involved were not targeting
laymen. So if a non laymen's
response gets propagated by the
media, that's not really Microsofts
12/21/2014
Page 37 of 44
fault. It is up to the consumer to

the individual consumers to seek
proper understanding.
So, yes you're right we can argue
all day, but my point is, even the
laymen understands getting
proper information from the
source is best. Your whole
argument about how Microsoft
said what they said (which people
familiar with the medium should
have understood) is nearly moot
when it comes to the issue of
proper understanding, since they
(Microsoft) are not the first party
or the best party to get
information from.
Your argument don't provide the
most direct solution to the
problem you cite which is the
misinformation of consumers.
You're focusing on the wrong
target.
Rick
Rodriguez
6 months ago
12/21/2014
Page 38 of 44
Okay, I love you guys and I'm

very happy to see
SurfaceProArtist.com
become a home for spirited
debate. But I think you've
both made your point. Let's
just try to focus on what
works and what doesn't and
tips and tricks for getting the
most out of your hardware
and software investment.
ace
malone
6 months ago
no my friend, its not

impossible to satisfy every
level of understanding when it
comes to compatibility. they
only have needed to say
'compatibility rests on the
software makers', and all is
well. what would be a more
direct solution to avoid
misunderstanding then? just
by saying that, they won't
need to answer for every X
program as you keep
mentioning. one simple,
12/21/2014
Page 39 of 44
neat, easily understood

answer for all of them. know
i won't convince you when it
comes to this subject, but
you sure seem interesting
fellow to have a few round of
drinks with. :)
you see, you seem quite
intelligent, but you have to
look at it from a regular
consumer's point of view: to
them it is the PEN that has
changed, not the programs.
they're just worried that
their programs will not work.
now they're asking the ones
who put that new PEN in the
first place. i truly wish that
most laymen would simply
understand that it would be
the software, but if you have
ever spent any brief time as
tech support, you would
know that that is not the case
for a whole LOT of people
i leave you with this: why do
you think software and
game boxes have fine prints
and labels? telling which
12/21/2014
Page 40 of 44
region they work with, or the

minimum hardware
requirements? same with
peripherals and digitizers...
stating which OS and what
versions they run with? not
just out of the goodness of
their hearts i tell you. they
serve a practical business
advantage in making sure all
potential buyers are
informed right. and MS
stands to gain with such a
stance. of course with ntrig,
a simple compatibility rests
on the software maker would
suffice.
Rick
Rodriguez
6
months
ago
Ace, I'll leave you the

same comment I left
Sean: you've both
made your points very
articulately. Now let's
12/21/2014
Page 41 of 44
go back to dealing
with what works and
what doesn't and tips
and tricks for getting
the most out of your
hardware and
software investment.
Richard Fabic
6 months ago
Gabe had a mostly positive review of the SP3 although he

mentioned the higher resolutions causing some slowdown.
I'll wait to try it in stores to see.
Sean Adams
6 months ago
Based on the reading I have been doing it would

seem that it is possible the 'slowdown' is the hover
lag introduced by the N-Trig hardware. Show I think it
may be a visual glitch and not representing the
software.
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
Yes, I think you're correct. What's happening is

that the graphics card can't quite keep up with
the pen, which causes this apparent lag. Unlike
12/21/2014
Page 42 of 44
Wacom, the drawing won't start where the

cursor is, it will start where the tip touches. To
reduce this visual confusion, I've changed my
cursor to a one-point dot in Manga Studio.
Paulo Dekkers
6 months ago
Is MS gonna do something about the new home button

location?
For right handed illustrators its a desaster.
it wil launch you back to start if you go over it with your
hand wile drawing.
pretty anoing
i suggest MS put i back wher it used to be. With the type
keyboard atached ther is a home button on the keyboard
and a virtual one in the charms.
Matt Laskowski (foxorian)
6 months ago
I believe the move to put the Start button on the right

bezel also stems from the fact Microsoft is
encouraging more portrait oriented usage, not only
from the 3:2 form factor but from the lighter weight
too. In portrait mode, the button being at the bottom
means you can grip the SP3 anywhere along the
edges without hitting Start.
12/21/2014
Page 43 of 44
What Microsoft should have done was make the Start

button physical instead of capacitive. The Start
Button is physical on my Cintiq Companion and I've
never once accidentally pressed it, so nice.
Regardless, I do agree that if it were kept in the
bottom bezel in landscape, the Type Cover covering it
would have been a total non-issue since the keyboard
itself has a start key.
I'm sure someone will come up with a Disable Tablet
Start Button app sooner or later if it doesn't already
exist.
Matt Laskowski (fox-orian)

6 months ago
I always assumed from the moment I heard the SP3 used

N-Trig that Microsoft made the switch because it was the
only way they could cut fat out of the prior Surface Pro.
While Wacom's technology does have its strengths,
unfortunately it does add an entirely extra layer of circuitry
beneath the screen that is just too expensive thickness-wise
when it comes to something as reduced as the SP3.
I have no doubts that eliminating the wacom digitizer layer
was the first item on the chopping block when they were
trying to re-engineer the casing for thinness. What I also bet
is that after replacing the pen tech with N-Trig, they were
able to run with the ideas of click-pen-to-wake and making
12/21/2014
Page 44 of 44
the pen metal, etc, once they knew it was possible with the
alternate tech.
As a Cintiq Companion owner, I'd love to try the SP3 out at
my local MS Store. I'm a Wacom fanatic, and I'll freely admit
that we need more competition for professional grade
tablet pen solutions. I think N-Trig could make its way there
and get better in the process. At the moment, Wacom first
and foremost embraces itself as a toolmaker for artists and
creative-types, where N-Trig seems more business oriented,
concerned chiefly about handwriting and note-taking
capability (N-Trig not having a dedicated eraser solution on
their pens, for example.) I think adoption for N-Trig could
increase if they recognize the need for stronger competitive
player in the digital art / visual design industries.
I'd also like to see Wacom attempt digitizer tech that's NOT
electromagnetic a they've been doing for decades. They
show a willingness to experiment. How would Wacom
design an active capacitive system, I wonder?
Rick Rodriguez
6 months ago
I've heard from a reliable source close to the

company that Wacom is indeed hard at work on a
new digitizer product that is not EMT.
12/21/2014

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Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

Surface Pro Artist

Microsoft addresses N-Trig

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

The question was posted by Reddit user BluEgo:

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

3) The bigger resolution will probably impact performances. I

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

backlight. This is a completely separate system from the touch

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

signal is correlated to the position of the pen. To do this, the pen

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

in thickness, a few mm around the bezel of the device, and a few

6) Pen weight, feel,

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

a point to my friends: I took the best known a EM based device I

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

difference.. and that is cause really the resultant info is not

Newer: SurfaceProArtist on Surfacegeeks podcast

there, true believers...

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

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I feel like I just got water boarded by information. The

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

N-Trig draws straighter lines, works better at the

I wanted a summary so I skipped the detailed

You're correct, but even regular consumers

The camera megapixel comparison made a LOT of sense to

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

because it has a higher spec doesn't necessarily mean that

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

Big walls tend to be there to hide something... cant shake

I don't understand what he meant we have WinTab drivers?

True. I know they're scrambling to improve the

These are great questions.

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

Thanks man! I did those questions after reading both

yeah, something about getting bombarded with a long

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

really not hating on n-trig and the Surface Pro 3. i want it to

The problem with "straight answers" is that the

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

available version was a Photoshop specific fix.

thanks a lot for the quick replies rick! :)

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

inevitable release of SP4 (it wasn't even a year

If you've already got a Surface Pro 1, I

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

long winded information used to confuse and make us

All he has to say is that ntrig is not as good as Wacom

If and only if someone (who might be Microsoft) comes up

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

Have you tried using a mini bluetooth keyboard with

Oh yes i did! My issue there would be that the

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

try out this controller:

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist

on the right. it uses an AA battery, quite light, and can

i think some people are not giving Microsoft a fair chance

Microsoft addresses N-Trig concerns in Reddit response Surface Pro Artist