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The LSE caves in to terror

FRIDAY, 23RD JANUARY 2009

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 First the Netherlands prosecutes Geert  Popular Blog Posts

Wilders for speaking against Islamic terror;
now the London School of Economics has
caved in to the threat of Islamist violence.
Douglas Murray, the director of the Centre for
Social Cohesion, has been banned from
BUY THE CURRENT ISSUE
chairing a debate on Islam at the London
School of Economics today between Dr Alan
Sked, a senior lecturer in international
history, and Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, a
Muslim writer and lecturer, because the LSE fears his views will provoke
  violence. Those views are outspoken opposition to the Islamisation of the west
and staunch support for Israel. The LSE, where some Jewish students report a
poisonous and frightening atmosphere at present, has just seen a week-long
anti-Israel protest over Gaza. The Evening Standard reports:
Most read Most commented on
1 PMQs live blog - Peter Hoskin
2 Just like old times - David Blackburn
An energetic contest - Lloyd Evans
3
4 Is there a Labour revolt brewing over any
changes to universal jurisdiction? - James
Forsyth
Labour's coming man? - James Forsyth
5

CARTOONS
‘I’m prescribing this
particular drug because
the company gives me
lots of lovely freebies.’
The LSE asked Mr Murray not to attend in the interest of public Search this blog
safety as his presence could provoke further unrest. A spokesman
added: ‘He has spoken at LSE in the past and will be welcome to
do so again in the future.’
Another victory for the forces of darkness, thanks to the pusillanimity of the LSE
which, finding itself on the battlefield of the war to defend civilisation, has run up Melanie's published articles
the white flag.
  In search of the work ethic
Al Qaeda in Africa
‘Londonistan’ is still the weakest link
Israel’s false friend
The growing threat to free speech
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Post this entry to:   del.icio.us | Digg | Newsvine | NowPublic | Reddit Melanie Phillips is a Daily Mail columnist. She
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panellist on BBC Radio Four's Moral Maze. Her
most recent book is 'Londonistan', published by
Encounter and Gibson Square.
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ray douglas
January 23rd, 2009 1:35pm
i remember Douglas Alexander once as a panel Just top up £10 a month for unlimited free internet and
member on BBC Question time. He was texts for life
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LSE, London School of Economics, some weird

Anna Kelatskya Latest blog posts
students who is extremely brain washed are
January 23rd, 2009 1:37pm
attending there, oh boy I will be careful that
COFFEE HOUSE
place, I wonder if a school like LSE is like this
Osborne looks to Sweden, but let's
how the other ones will be?
not turn Japanese
Comments (8)
They were chicken in the 60's on rag days too.
stanley Jerusalem Even Mick Jagger bailed. CAPPUCCINO CULTURE
January 23rd, 2009 1:43pm Fearing the worst
Comments (3)
Oh Gawd! Lese majeste.
stanley Jerusalem SIR Mick Jagger.
January 23rd, 2009 1:44pm FAITH BASED
Faith schools are damaging religious
identity
Pathetic. More dhimmitude.
Gruntson Comments (14)
January 23rd, 2009 1:58pm
The adminstrators should have the word
'dhimmitude' tattoed on their foreheads.

Gruntson - They would were there sufficient

stanley Jerusalem room 'tween eyebrows and hairline......
January 23rd, 2009 2:02pm
[Knuckle scraping]

Could they not have excluded

phil troublemakers ?,or are we accepting the way of
January 23rd, 2009 2:09pm
the brownshirts from hitlers time .The LSE
should be ashamed of themselves if this is the
way they teach young people to disagree .

OK, let's look on the bright side: Britain is cold,

Vision Aforethought wet, windy, generally depressing (except on a
January 23rd, 2009 2:19pm
sunny August afternoon and new year's eve at
about 11:59PM) The country whilst pretty in
places is losing all that makes living here
worthwhile: Pubs, privacy and pragmatism.

So, let 'them' have it! And let those of us who

wish to enjoy life and not take things too
seriously - while working for an honest income,
depart to sunnier more friendly climes.

Where, we can leave to the imagination.

I have e-mailed my disgust to the LSE today

Original Tony and may I encourage all of us who contribute to
January 23rd, 2009 3:07pm
this blog to go further than chatting about our
disgust and actually DOING something, even if it
is a simple protest e-mail.
The academic lefters need to know there is a
mounting opposition out there, so come on, do
your bit!

Excellent point, Phil.

Penny
January 23rd, 2009 3:08pm
Even at contentious public meetings in Town
halls around the country, there are those who
violently disagree with the matter under
discussion (I'm speaking of local issues rather
than Israel/Gaza). Police are occasionally
drafted in and remain quietly in the background -
just in case.

If troublemakers cannot be excluded at the entry

point, they can be removed if and when they
become disruptive.

I am hugely surprised that an institution such as

the LSE would behave in this way.....unless, of
course, the 'Risk Assessment' chapter of the
'Health and Safety' guidelines are the barrier.

Even advertisement banners strung across the

road, telling of a local event are now deemed
dangerous in case they fall on someone's head.
The fact that they never have fallen before isn't
the point - according to Risk
Assessment/Health & Safety.

wow, I did not know things were this bad in

pm317 Europe, especially UK and the Netherlands (but
January 23rd, 2009 3:17pm
I am being educated since I started visiting this
blog). If you succumb to radical Islamists' threat
 and blackmail, that is the end of it. Not even
academic freedom?!

@pm317, For all intents and purposes, Britain is

Gary O an islamic country. Witness the current spate of
January 23rd, 2009 4:40pm
anti-Semitic outrage on the streets of London
where "kill the Jews" is daubed on pavement
outside underground stations and bus stop
shelters, Jewish shops vandalised and Jews
being attacked in broad daylight– even elderly
are not spared. And guess what, not a peep
from bbc or any other news media, no
government statements and no police action.
This really is getting out of hand.

It's just because, as of Tuesday, neocons

David Lindsay simply don't matter any more.
January 23rd, 2009 4:53pm

Murray blew any chance of a Tory seat when he

used a Spectator Diary to announce that he had
voted Labour in the Ealing Southall by-election
following his Question Time spat with Sayeeda
Warsi.

And now this, doubtless the first of many.

So what is he going to do with the rest of his life

now? He's only just 30, if he's that old.

Of course, he doesn't need to work. Hence his

pretend think tank that is in fact just his media
by-line where "Too Rich To Need To Work"
would not do.

But even so, it would take a heart of stone not to

laugh.

pm317, Not even academic freedom? No Non,

Margaret Muller- not in Britain and Netherlands, there is no
Johansson freedom of expression in this part of the world,
January 23rd, 2009 5:00pm
and the academic left wing liberals are the ones
who created this, I am out of here,
Salut! I mean Shalom

pm317 - things are nowhere near as bad as you

Carl read here. There have not been any riots. The
January 23rd, 2009 5:07pm
only even of note that I can think of is that a
Starbucks suffered minor damage. Put it down
to febrile imagination.

'In the interests of public safety'? Nah,'in the

Daibhidh MacAdhaimh interests of moral cowardice' is nearer the mark.
January 23rd, 2009 5:13pm

David Lindsay
phil January 23rd, 2009 4:53pm
January 23rd, 2009 5:52pm
we can assume you are laughing then -what a
sour man you are -I hope you will not mind me
feeling sorry for you .

Just this week I invited Mr Murray to Debate with

Alex Hughes my university Debating Society and Mr Murray
January 23rd, 2009 6:00pm
accepted the invitation. I sincerely hope my
University SU, who would have to agree to his
appearance, do not cave in as the LSE. I would
feel a campaign coming on if they did.

Original Tony
Penny
January 23rd, 2009 6:18pm
Although I agree with your sentiments, I know
from experience that individual letters /emails
arriving to protest an issue are generally ignored.
It is only when a group comes together does
anyone up on high sit up and take any notice.

How would anyone suggest a group should be

formed? Perhaps a 'Yahoo'-type group initially?
I think they're free of charge.

I have no experience in IT matters but am a

member of a few 'Yahoo' groups

Original Tony-I have done

phil
January 23rd, 2009 6:25pm

Alex Hughes well done -perhaps our future is not

phil so bleak after all
January 23rd, 2009 6:27pm
 This is an absolute disgrace. I am a
Gil postgraduate of the University of London and I
January 23rd, 2009 7:40pm
ashamed, not only of my old University but of
this country. Douglas Murray only poses a
threat to those who have their evil agenda,
allowing radical Islam to call the shots in this
country. I despise the LSE for this.

this story is just not true, murray himself offered

martin to withdraw from chairing the event when he was
January 23rd, 2009 8:06pm
told about the atmosphere on the lse campus
following the occupation of a room by some
students protesting about the situation in gaza
for a week, which has strained relations between
israeli and muslim students. murray was never
told he had to stand down.

murray has spoken at lse twice in the past 6

months, so to say he is banned is just madness
and not true.

when lse became aware today that murray was

saying he did not want to stand down as chair
the academic organiser tried to contact him, but
funnily enough he was unavailable all afternoon
(despite telling some friends in the right wing
press he was still free). murray responded late
in the day saying he needed more notice, which
was a handy way to get out of it, having got the
publicity he wanted!

seems to me he used this situation to get some

publicity, and he has certainly been successful.
also amazing to me how people in the press
dont check the facts before publishing stories!

Similar things are happening where I study,

MJE Warwick University. There is a sit-in in one of
January 23rd, 2009 8:32pm
the lecture theatres and they refuse to leave
unless their 'demands' are met. These are:

1. Warwick University should suspend all

relations with companies which supply the
Palestinian-Israeli conflict. This includes BAE
Systems, MBDA, QinetiQ and Rolls Royce.

2. That the University donate old computer

equipment and textbooks to universities in
Palestine, specifically those that were partially
destroyed in Gaza during the current Israeli
military operation.

3.That the University fund and provide logistical

support for a series of talks on the Israeli-
Palestinian conflict.

(See
http://warwicksolidaritysitin.wordpress.com/about/
also)

It is also happening in SOAS, Exeter,

Birmingham, Sussex, Leeds, Oxford, Essex and
Kings, there is a Facebook group uniting all of
them together:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?
gid=45620747685

Annoyingly, the room they are currently

occupying is where I have my history lectures.
I'd quite like it back.

Come to UCL instead!!!

Michael Alldis
January 23rd, 2009 8:40pm

MJE, this is real threat, I hope you get your

Sergei Zubatov room back
January 23rd, 2009 8:45pm

pm137
An American
January 23rd, 2009 9:54pm
Come on.. Universities in the US are just as
liberal and out of control.

Conservative speakers are no longer invited to

give their viewpoints. Instead, they invite people
like Iran's head henchman to speak.
 Conservatives or anyone from the right politically
can't give their side without being shouted down,
pies thrown, students taking over the
stage...college presidents just stand by and let
all these liberal commie brats terrorize and shut
up the opposition.

The US is just a few years behind the UK.

Liberal socialism is destroying Britain and it will

eventually destroy us unless the American
public wakes up and acts to stop it.

Isn't LSE a known purulent leftist cesspool

hadrian anyway? So hardly surprising its take on
January 23rd, 2009 9:58pm
'freedom of speech' is that it exists only for
some. Bet if they were hosting something
intensely offensive to Jews or Christians they
wouldn't bat an eyelid about it and assume the
moral high ground for doing so! Such
pusillanimity on the part of a supposedly even-
handed secular institution of learning how far we
are down the road to dhimmitude indeed. Truly
disgusting.

Isn't the LSE a child of the Fabian Society?

Winnie McCrann
January 23rd, 2009 10:05pm

Ms Philips actually highlights in her comments

martin the reason that LSE was surely right to have
January 23rd, 2009 10:21pm
concerns over Douglas Murray chairing the
event. She says that his views are "outspoken
opposition to the Islamisation of the west and
staunch support for Israel". This would suggest
he would not be a suitable person to chair an
event on the subject of Islam or Liberalism:
Which is the Way Forward? when generally the
chair of an event should be someone who is
seen as neutral and not strongly favouring one
side of the debate.

It is also perhaps a bit of a dramtisation on the

part of Ms Philips to say that Mr Murray not
chairing an event is in anyway a victory to the
"forces of darkness".

Martin's statement is not correct. I have the

Alex Singleton email sent to Douglas Murray from the LSE that
January 23rd, 2009 11:08pm
says: "I have been asked by the Pro-Director,
Prof. Janet Hartley, to request that you stand
down as chairman of the debate on Friday
evening. Part of the School has been occupied
by student protesters on account of events in
Gaza and there is official concern that on this
account your presence might provoke further
unrest."

I had difficulty getting through to Douglas Murray

on the telephone post-5:30pm, but I experienced
no difficulty getting straight through to him
during office hours.

I was phoned at about 5:30pm by the LSE press

office to say that they were willing to reinvite
him, and this was followed up at 5:35pm with an
emailed statement to that effect. I am amazed
that they left it so late.

Martin- no one is 'neutral' when push comes to

hadrian shove; if every debate were to be pulled because
January 24th, 2009 12:29am
a chairman could not be seen to be 'neutral'
enough there'd be precious few debates at all.
Great excuse, though!

Carl, Jews have been beaten up in the street,

Adam B. not that you would care. Jews are feeling
January 24th, 2009 12:52am
increasingly uncomfortable in an openly hostile
environment. By the way, still thinking about
whether you would condemn the Hamas charter,
which call for the extermination of all the Jews?
Last I looked, you were refusing to condemn it.
Is it hard for you to get your head around? Poor
dear.

Thanks for your posts, Alex!

Penny
January 24th, 2009 12:52am
I believe I read that the Oxford University's 'sit-in'
involved about 90 students who were offering up
 a watered-down-from-the-original set of
demands. At least the other 21,910 students at
Oxford had the sense to be more annoyed about
the potenial disruption to their studies!

I went to a London College, part of the University

Adam B. of London. Whilst there, the Jewish Society
January 24th, 2009 1:04am
routinely had its noticeboard trashed and
daubed in hate graffiti, including Holocaust
denial, propaganda videos against Israel were
shown in the JCR, Hizb ut Tahrir campaigned
with their hatred at the College gates. Then a
couple years later, an alumnus of my College
and his colleague walked into a bar on the Tel
Aviv beachfront and murdered three people with
a suicide belt, and injured dozens. This is really
happening, and the appeasement of the LSE
isn't new, it is part of a reality that has been
going on for years. Of course, when the next
terror outrage explodes on the streets of
London, the media will wring its hands and say,
how did this happen? It's happening because
young Islamic radicals are being fed a diet of
hatred and the authorities and those in positions
of influence, like the LSE, are too gutless to
confront it.

So there are not many graduates of the LSE

Martin Garthwaite here? Well I am and I tell you one thing the LSE
January 24th, 2009 1:07am
does not teach, and that is how to think, oh you
thought the LSE is a technical college, OK.

If I have one complaint about the LSE it is that

it's not true to it's founding principles, until
recently most undergrads wanted to be
merchant wankers, leftist, yeah right!!

Our Unversities and those in the USA have

John Montgomery become a joke. INstead of reason and objectivity
January 24th, 2009 1:57am
- surely the basis of scholarship - we have bias
and ideology. It has gotten to the stage where I
no longer believe anything an 'academic' says.
This is very sad, but is a consequence of post-
modernism and the leftards seizing control of
higher education.

The next time we have a Conservative

government, they really must take the Culture
Wars seriously, especailly in the media,
academe, the judiciary and our cultural
institutions and popular culture. Otherwise the
left will be back again and worse than ever.

Is the LSE incapable of requesting or procuring

Stuart Rose some extra security for the event?
January 24th, 2009 2:17am
One would have hoped that the faculty(I guess
I'm in fantasy land here) would have urged the
school not to alter its lineup, not to compromise
its commitment to free speech and open debate.

I can virtually see another India-Pakistan

JS situation developing in EU.. an absolute repeat
January 24th, 2009 7:30am
of history..because in 1947 Hindu liberals
downright squashed the conservatives regarding
policies of Muslim appeasement, we Indians of
today are reaping a bitter bitter harvest of Jehad
and communal riots in our own land. Today
Hindus of India have become a totally besieged
and oppressed majority akin to where the EU is
heading to..Today Indian politics is virtually
hijacked and held to ransom by Jehadi-
sympathizers and apologists and Hindus have
absolutely no voice in their own land....History is
indeed repeating itself in EU..what a tragic
irony!!

Remember one of their alumni at the LSE is that

Felicitas Pakistani Jihadist who murdered the poor
January 24th, 2009 9:29am
innocent Journalist who was working for the Wall
Street Journal, Daniel Pearl, please read prayers
for him that he rests on peace let's honour,

and let us say: Amen

AdamB - stop trying to make out that a wave of

Carl anti-Semitism is engulfing the UK. There is
January 24th, 2009 9:31am
nothing of the sort, despite your hysterical
bleating. Justly deserved criticism is just that.
Crying anti-Semitism is merely an attempt to
 close the discussion down.

Extremism is just like a disease, wich is going

Anwar k Taal to spread out, if you don't fight with it and you
January 24th, 2009 10:33am
are too soft, like the western Europeans are
doing, things will only get worst but not better,
and at the end they will regret

martin "" murray himself offered to withdraw from

phil chairing the event when he was told about the
January 24th, 2009 11:12am
atmosphere on the lse campus""

LSE SHOULD HAVE INSISTED THAT HE DID

NOT WITHDRAW,RATHER THAN
ENCOURAGING THESE EXTREMISTS THAT
VIOLENCE WINS -IS THAT NOW WHAT OUR
UNIVERSITIES ARE TEACHING YOUNG
PEOPLE?

"Douglas Murray ... has been banned from

Ian Miller chairing a debate"
January 24th, 2009 11:17am
So? Murray is not by any stretch of the
imagination neutral on the subject. It would have
been entirely inappropriate to have him in the
chair, where he would either be unable to
contribute properly (if he maintained his
impartiality) or would have destroyed the
debate's credibility if he did not, or both if he
maintained his impartiality but was accused of
not doing so. This is just plain bad for the quality
of the debate.

Accordingly his being removed from the chair

seems entirely reasonable and sensible.

Clearly it is difficult in such a contentious issue

to find a truly neutral chairman. However that is
no excuse for giving the role to someone with
such a clear compaigning role on the subject.
Murray was just about the worst possible
choice. (Okay, George Galloway would have
been worse.)

The real question that needs asking is why he

was invited to chair it in the first place.

Martin Garthwaite- They have certainly not

phil taught you how to be a merchant,but the second
January 24th, 2009 11:18am
part you have passed with honours .fancy
attaching your name to a claim like that !says a
lot for your college .

Carl you should answer Adam B,s oft asked

phil question before you pontificate on anti -semitism
January 24th, 2009 12:06pm
-do you condemn the hamas charter-will we ever
hear from you .until we do you will find it very
hard to gain any respect here .

Ian Miller-you make some valid points ,but he

phil was invited and was stopped through the threat
January 24th, 2009 12:09pm
of violence -perhaps the debate should have
been cancelled altogether .The point here is the
threat of violence prevailed to the eternal shame
of LSE

Stinky College, I am glad I did not go there

Oliwagino Alefaua
Yihiri
January 24th, 2009 12:17pm

phil, why on earth would you think that I would

Carl be interested in respect from the extremists that
January 24th, 2009 2:19pm
post here?

JS, I'm sure you're right about Jihadism in India -

John Thomas no doubt it's the ill-treatment they receive, from
January 24th, 2009 3:29pm
Islamists, that makes the Hindhus take it out on
the Christians, perhaps that's why they murder
so many.

Ian Miller: should you find yourself sitting in a

Tiberius tube train with an Islamist suicide bomber next
January 24th, 2009 4:33pm
to you, I'd guess even you might struggle to be
neutral on the subject.

Carl, (who refuses to condemn the hamas

Adam B. charter which calls for the extermination of every
January 24th, 2009 5:13pm
Jew) - this full title shall be your name from now
on. To get to your "complaint", perhaps you can
 point to where I said that any criticism of Israel
is anti-Semitic. I neither think, nor wrote any
such thing. Your problem is that you are so
engulfed in obsessive hatred that you can't read,
and are utterly incapable of any nuanced or
intelligent thought. I do however believe that
Briain is being engulfed by casual anti-
Semitism, and the statistics of violent attacks or
abusive behaviour against Jews support this
view, as does the perception of many Jews. I
myself have witnessed this casual anti-
Semitism, which is fast becoming part of normal
discourse in left wing circles. Furthermore Carl,
I'm not going to be lectured about anti-Semitism
by someone who gives tacit approval to a Nazi
document which represents the goals of Hamas.

Carl, why don't you answer my post of 1.04am?

Adam B.
January 24th, 2009 5:14pm

All of this (and the subjects covered in most of

Vision Aforethought M's other postings) are precisely why Israel
January 24th, 2009 6:09pm
exists in the first place. But the Jews cannot
win! If they assimilate, they are persecuted and
used as scapegoats when things go wrong (no
matter who is to blame) - so some have no
option but to flee to a 'safer' location- just in
case. And once they are there, they are
attacked, even when negotiating to hold onto
what little space they have.

The propaganda in the media today, in particular

over the DEC appeal, shows just how people
don't get it with regards to where all those
billions that are donated to the Palestinians end
up. What really frustrates is that the Palestinian
'on the street' is oblivious to all this and a victim
of the same enemy that threatens Israel.

It would be an interesting experiment to have all

the Jews in Israel depart (again) - wait a year or
so, and see what transpires. Not practical of
course, but it would probably prove a few points.
The world would then 'get it'. The well meaning,
but stuck in the stone age Tony Benn included.

AdamB- because you didn't ask a question.

Carl Also, note that I will not take lectures from
January 24th, 2009 6:39pm
somebody that condones brutality against
civilians by the IDF. You cannot accept that
many, many people are disgusted by Israel's
recent atrocities.

Hi, I am an Israeli student at LSE, and was very

Patrick worried when I heard about this story yesterday
January 24th, 2009 9:06pm
afternoon so I went to the debate last night
which I think most of those who are commenting
on this blog did not. Having attended what was a
fairly interesting debate its clear to me the LSE
was right to think that Mr Murray would not have
been a suitable chairperson. The issue being
debated was whether Islam or Liberalism was
best placed to solve societies problems, which
in itself is a sensitive topic. I think we all know
where Mr Murray would stand on this question,
so for me while I would find myself agreeing with
much of what Mr Murray says I think LSE were
right to have concerns about him chairing the
event. Most sensible people I think would agree
that its best to have someone in the chair who is
viewed as an honest broker especially for
sensitive or controversial topics. Douglas Murray
would have been a great speaker on the topic,
but a totally unsuitable chair, it would have been
like asking the Pope to chair a debate on the
issue of homosexuality. I think people who
come to such quick conclusions on this matter
need to give some consideration for the
unfortunate atmosphere on the LSE campus
between certains groups of students after the
recent activity in the middle east and the
occupation of campus. I believe the School has
a responsibility to consider these things for the
good of campus relations.

For those criticising LSE there needs to be an

acknowledgement that the debate went ahead,
with the proposed speakers. This included Alan
Sked who put forward views which were very
 similar to those which Mr Murray would put
forward, so the allegation there was some threat
to free speech is totally false. Its also worth
noting that Mr Murray has spoken at LSE twice
in the past 6 months, including at an event
hosted by the Israeli Society that I attended
where I very much agreed with much of what he
said.

I also spoke to people after the event and heard

that as far the School authories were aware Mr
Murray had offered to stand down as chair of the
event. When they became aware yesterday
morning via the papers that he was not happy
with standing down the organiser tried to contact
Mr Murray in the afternoon and make it clear he
could chair the event. I understand that Murray
appeared to make himself unavailable all
afternoon to approaches from LSE till shortly
before the event when he said he did not have
time.

The whole affair seems to have been a bit

messy, but from what I was told and have seen
it seems LSE was acting with the best of
intentions, rather than trying to crack down to
free speech or cave into pressure from Islamic
fanatics. A lot of the speakers who come to LSE
are left wing, and pro palestinian, but there have
been a good number in recent months who take
a very pro Israeli stance and who may described
as neo cons such as Rick Santorum, US
Attorney General Michael Mukasey, Homeland
Secretary Chertoff and John Bolton to name a
handful. I think this clearly demonstrates the
claims made on this blog that in some way LSE
does not try to uphold the principle of free
speech are clearly false.

Carl, then let me as another 'extremist' ask you

hadrian simply: do you share the Hamas charter's
January 24th, 2009 11:05pm
agenda that every Jew be exterminated? Simple
enough. I have many Jewish friends, mostly
secular, some Reform, some converted to
Christianity. You owe these individuals, none of
whom is an Israeli nor a zionist an answer, if not
us 'extremists'.

"You cannot accept that many, many people are

Dave M disgusted by Israel's recent atrocities."
January 24th, 2009 11:22pm

The Israelis have a solid argument to counter

this. They know too well how many
Chechnyans, how many Iraqis and how many
Afghans have been killed in wars that haven't
directly concerned Israel. For example, I know
when the Russians went into Chechnya they
eventually declared any male Chechnyan over
18 years old a terrorist - period. Grozniy was
flattened. In Iraq thousands have died. In
Afghanistan many innocents have been killed
(usually by mistake). Then I hear Russia and
China have discussed the use of the use of
vacuum bombs against Muslim separatists if
they cause instability either in China or Russia's
spheres of influence. Therefore, who is in a
position to lecture Israel? Put it another way:
How would India react if Pakistan fired 1000
rockets into its borders? I dare say the whole
thing would spiral towards nuclear war. All Israel
has done is its level best to stop fanatics
carrying out suicide bombings and rocket
attacks into its borders. Palestinian civilians
were warned by the IDF to flee the fighting but
perhaps many were not allowed to leave by
Hamas. Isn't it time there was some genuine
criticism and analysis of how Hamas has been
exploiting these people as human shields?

Carl
phil January 24th, 2009 2:19pm thats the first truthful
January 25th, 2009 12:02am
thing I have seen you post ,but do not worry -
you have none

Carl, here's a question for you then (as you

Adam B. seem rendered speechless by my previous post
January 25th, 2009 12:17am
and have nothing to say about the pressures
Jewish students face) - do you condemn the
Hamas charter, which calls for the extermination
 of every Jew? By the way, I don't condone
brutality against civilians, but fully support
Israel's self defensive measures against a
genocidal terrorist group, which has embedded
itself amongst, and manipulates for its own evil
ends, civilians. Pity you can't see that. Pity you
also are blind to the rampant anti-semitism
which is increasingly creeping into the
mainstream of British life. You see Carl, I
answer your "points", but you refuse to answer
mine. it's called debate, not slogan shouting.

By the way Carl, any comment about the lies of

Adam B. 1,300 dead in Gaza - according to Corriere della
January 25th, 2009 12:20am
Sera, a Palestinian doctor has said there are
empty hospital beds available and that the figure
was between 500-600, overwhelmingly men who
were involved in combat. Is he lying?

Patrick, the report in the Evening Stnadard

Adam B. states that Murray's invitation was withdrawn
January 25th, 2009 12:25am
because of the fear of "unrest", not because of
his suitability as chair. Is the Standard simply
wrong about this?

How absolutely quaint! To American ears a

Jerry debate on "Islam vs Liberalism - which is the
January 25th, 2009 5:42am
best way forward", makes no sense. It is like
asking whether Fascism or Communism is the
best way forward. Of course, it is the way of
humans to have to answer the same questions
multiple times over successive generations
before the answers really take hold. What
century did you say we were in?

AdamB- I see that you attempt to draw comfort

Carl from a claim that the IDF did not slaughter as
January 25th, 2009 3:46pm
many Palestinians as had been estimated. A
rather perverse stand in most civilised people's
view. Can we therefore say that it is OK that
Hamas launches a lot of rockets as they are not
at all effective?

Adam, from what I understand Mr Murray had

Patrick told the organiser who I think was Alan Sked
January 25th, 2009 5:44pm
that he was willing to withdraw from chairing
when told about the issues on campus, and
expressed no problems with this. It seems the
School only heard he had a problem when
reports appeared in the press. To be it would a
more mature approach of Mr Murray to make
clear his unhappiness to LSE, rather than try to
generate publicity for himself.

I was told there were concerns that should there

be any issues or problems at the debate then
Murray would not be suitable to be an effective
chairperson, as he would not be seen as in any
way as neutral on the topic being discussed,
and his chairmanship could inflame any
potential situation.

To me it seems Murray was a stupid choice as

the chair as I said before. I presume the choice
of him was down to Alan Sked.

When some students complained about Murray

speaking at LSE last year, the School defended
his right to speak on campus, and ensured his
talk went ahead.

Tiberius wrote "Ian Miller: should you find

Ian Miller yourself sitting in a tube train with an Islamist
January 25th, 2009 7:02pm
suicide bomber next to you, I'd guess even you
might struggle to be neutral on the subject."

I don't actually see that this has to do with the

point under discussion. Nevertheless finding
myself the subject of a terrorist attack would not
cause me to lose my neutrality on any subject
upon which I try to be neutral.

I am a pacifist and as such opposed to all use of

violence, and that obviously includes suicide
bombers, so to that extent I never have been
neutral.

In my view, it is a cardinal mistake to allow

violence or threats of violence to change your
 position. To change your position their favour is
pusillanimous; to change against is to recognise
the men of violence as the valid representatives
of their cause and hence to undermine moderate
and peaceful proponents of that cause. That will
push more of the moderates into the camp of
the men of violence.

The one time I have changed my plans was due

to terrorism was to counteract a trend that I saw
as giving in to terrorism. In the autumn of 2001,
vast numbers of people cancelled trans-atlantic
trips in response to the WTC attack. I believe
that was giving in to terrorism and I responded
making a trip to the USA that I otherwise
wouldn't have.

The best thing defence against terrorism is to

refuse to react and treat them as common
criminals. That is the last thing they want us to
do and that is precisely why we should do it.

The email sent to Douglas Murray by the event's

Alex Singleton organiser said: "I have been asked by the Pro-
January 25th, 2009 7:43pm
Director, Prof. Janet Hartley, to request that you
stand down as chairman of the debate on Friday
evening. Part of the School has been occupied
by student protesters on account of events in
Gaza and there is official concern that on this
account your presence might provoke further
unrest."

Carl, your last post doesn't even make sense.

Adam B. Do you dispute the claim of the Palestinian
January 25th, 2009 11:19pm
doctor, who said that most of those killed were
combatants, and that the figure is much lower
than the one proposed by the Nazis of Hamas?
And do you condemn the Nazi Hamas charter?
Still thinking about it?

Carl wrote:
Leslie
January 26th, 2009 6:21am
"AdamB- I see that you attempt to draw comfort
from a claim that the IDF did not slaughter as
many Palestinians as had been estimated. A
rather perverse stand in most civilised people's
view. Can we therefore say that it is OK that
Hamas launches a lot of rockets as they are not
at all effective?"
It seems to me that Adam is pointing out a
statistic in the pursuit of truth. That the IDF did
not kill more civilians is a testament to their
commitment to protect non combatants. Hamas
on the other hand fires rockets with the explicit
intention of killing as many civilians as possible.
Your arguments are certainly difficult to
understand and that's because they're
emanating from a twisted mind. I can see from
this blog that there are still, thankfully, some
people in Britain who haven't been hopelessly
brainwashed by MSM propoganda.

Look, this whole thing is a big fuss about very

ES little: I am sure that LSE could have handled it
January 26th, 2009 9:32am
better, but the School as has been pointed out
in some of the above posts does far more to
promote diversity of opinion than most other
British universities, after all for many years it
was home to legendary right wingers such as
Hayek, Oakeshott and Popper-in contrast to the
supine leftism of most UK academies. Tomorrow
night (Jan 27) for example Jonah Goldberg is
due to speak and here is an extract from the
LSE website advertising the event, so lay off the
attempts to denigrate the LSE in general
because of one small silly incident: ''For nearly a
century the political left has controlled the
commanding heights of intellectual discourse by
asserting, contrary to the evidence, that the left
holds a monopoly on political virtue. The further
you move from the left on the political spectrum,
it is asserted, the closer you get to evil.
"Fascism" has long served as the central prop in
this drama. Fascism and evil are
interchangeable terms, we are told. The reality
is that while fascism may be evil, it has always
been a leftist phenomenon.

Jonah Goldberg is a columnist for the Los

 Angeles Times and contributing editor to
National Review. A USA Today contributor and
former columnist for The Times in London, he
has also written for the New Yorker,
Commentary, the Wall Street Journal, and many
other publications. His latest book is Liberal
Fascism.

This event is free and open to all with no ticket

required. Entry is on a first come, first served
basis. For more information, email
events@lse.ac.uk''

@Leslie - was the IDF soldier who gunned down

Carl two children in front of their father going out of
January 26th, 2009 10:02am
his way to protect non combatants? You cannot
defend the indefensible, no matter how hard you
try. Like it or not, and you clearly don't, Israel
will have to treat with Hamas. The Neo Cons are
finished.

Leslie you wrote --"carl wrote" --.well he writes a

phil lot and most of it utter nonsense and the more
January 26th, 2009 11:41am
we respond to him the more he will do it , The
truth seems unimportant to him so long as he
can say something vile about Israelis,so in spite
of me now following Adam B,s good advice to
always respond to lies ,I think in this case we
totally waste our time as I do not think he is
believed anyway. He continues to ignore
Adam,s legitimate question so I think we should
now ignore him .as it has proved a pointless
exercise to engage with him .We cannot and
should not attempt to stop him writing ,but we
are under no compulsion to answer him either .

For a minute, I thought I must have posted that

Leslie(the original) message in my sleep(6:21am)
January 26th, 2009 1:06pm
Sounds like me,but I wouldn't engage with
Carl,Phil.
Other than that,I agree with "Leslie"

well both Leslies the late riser and the early

phil bird :)
January 26th, 2009 4:22pm

ES sometimes one reacts with emotion too

phil quickly ,so I would be interested to know what
January 26th, 2009 4:57pm
happened at the debate ,do you know?-I did
write to them asking why they conceded to
scare tactics, but did not receive a response. If I
had no respect for that institution I would not
have bothered ,that was what upset me the
most .

I'm on E.Standard time Phil :)

Leslie(the original)
January 26th, 2009 5:11pm
I hope you all signed the petition for Geert
Wilders
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?
wilders&1

Phil ,I don,t mind if you don,t want to

Carl respond .Feel free
January 26th, 2009 5:12pm

Carl, yet another groundless allegation from you.

Adam B. And your source is?
January 26th, 2009 11:04pm

Do you condemn the Nazi Hamas charter Carl?

phil you're right of course, Carl is an

Adam B. indoctrinated fanatic who never engages with
January 26th, 2009 11:07pm
anything one writes, but spews pre-
manufactured slogans he's picked up from other
haters. I just enjoy taunting him to be honest!

John THomas:
JS
January 27th, 2009 5:40am
What happened to some Christians in India at
the hands of some ignorant elements is highly
condemnable and regrettable. The Christian
community in India is a patriotic community and
they unlike the Jehadis do not put their religion
above national interests. The biggest threat to
India today is from Jehadis (Ps see that I make
a distinction between Jehadis and Muslims)
both external and home-grown. And just like the
EU, they pose a serious threat of annihilating
the native Hindu culture.
 AdamB - her you are, just for you, one of many
Carl links about the murder of these children by the
January 27th, 2009 8:11am
IDF:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0126/1232474680664.html

Do you condemn this murder and IDF brutality?

Adam B so did I but I can,t be bothered with him

phil any more ,he is just a waste of space .
January 27th, 2009 8:29pm

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