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Voltage Doubler Desulfator Design

Author
Tucsonshooter

Comment
Voltage Doubler Desulfator Design

Lead [-]

TA GS : None

Time for a new design

This new design fills the gap betw een the low pow er kick back and the direct drive desulfators and has features that a lot of
you w ill like.
Posts: 557
Nov 18 10 4:36 PM
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Here is a list of its features:

- It is as simple as the kick back circuit but capable of >30 amp pulses.
- No custom inductors!! All parts are off the shelf.
- Pow ered from the battery.
- Pulse w idth and rate fully variable.
- Very efficient (75 to 85% depending on load)
- No audible sound
- Very fast rise and fall times

Looks a lot like the old kick back circuit.

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I use the big blue cap (51,000uF), a pow er supply and low ohm resistors to simulate a battery. This is much more stable
than using a real battery,and I can change the "internal resistance" very easily.

These are all the same parts w e are use to using. The 555 timer circuit is right out of a kick back design. The TC4426
replaces the PNP transistor Mosfet driver. (You can replace the TC4426 w ith the PNP Transistor or an inverting totem pole
driver if needed.)

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Heres how it w orks.

W hen the Mosfet is off, the tw o caps are charged up to the battery voltage (13V) through the inductors. W hen the Mosfet
turns on the capacitors are now in series, generating a high current 24 volt potential that discharges into the battery. It is a
pretty simple design and generates a lot of current. The desulfating pulse voltage w ill alw ays be double the battery voltage
minus resistive losses (ESR, on resistance,etc.) As the battery voltage rises so w ill the output of this circuit.
The follow ing photos w ere measured under the follow ing conditions:
- Pulse w idth = 7 microseconds
- Pulse rate = 1700 Hz
- Battery internal resistance = .25 ohms
- Battery voltage = 13 volts

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This show s 22 volts peak (9 volts above the battery voltage)

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This show s 34 Amps peak current pulse (measured w ith a pearson current transformer)

The equasion to calculate the peak current (w ith no losses) is as follow s:

Vin X Iin / (Vpeak - Vbat) X DF = peak current
Vin = Input voltage to the circuit (13 volts)
Iin = Average input current to the circuit (.371 amps)
Vpeak = Peak voltage seen across the battery (22 volts)
Vbat = battery voltage (13 Volts)
DF = Duty factor (.000007 X 1700 = .0119)
This means that the calculated peak current w ith no losses should be 46 amps.
Another w ay to calculate peak current is:
amps.

(Vpeak - Vbat) / battery resistance = peak current.

This formula yelds 36

Recap of peak current measurenents and calculations:

Calculated no loss - 46 amps
Measured pearson CT - 34 amps
Calculated from voltage and current - 36 amps
So far I am thrilled w ith the performance and the simplicity of this circuit.
More details in the next posts
Mark

Last Edited By: Tucsonshooter Nov 18 10 4:39 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Tucsonshooter

7.1.2015

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Parts Descriptions - Inductors

#1 [-]

The follow ing posts defines the parameters for the parts used in the Voltage Doubler desulfator.

Posts: 557
Nov 18 10 5:16 PM
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I tried to do aw ay w ith inductors all together but I could not get the performance w ith out them. But the good new s is that
they are not critical.
The inductors do tw o things in this circuit:
1. Provide a DC path to charge the capacitors. This is such a long time that there is no inductance involved, just the coil
resistance, w hich is very low .
2. W hen the Mosfet turns on, the inductors "get out of the w ay" of the current flow .
I experimented using resistors instead of inductors. 1 ohm 2 w att resistors gave the best results. This came at the cost of
low er output, less efficiency, and slow er rise time.
Again the tw o inductors are not critical. I suggest a minimum inductance of 100 uH. I used as low as 10 uH but had a little
low er output than w hen I use more inductance. The difference in output betw een a 220 uH and a 1000uH inductor is about
1 volt. All of the pictures in the previous post used 1000uH inductors. The biggest reason that I used 1000uH inductor is that
I had a bunch of them.
The inductors should not be these ultra miniture types that w ill fit on a pencil eraser. They w ill saturate too quickly and w ill
soak pow er out of the circuit. The 1000uH inductors I used w ere a Pulse Electronics PE-53614. The core is about 1/2 inch in
diameter and 1/4 inch high.
It does not matter if they are Ferrite or Pow dered Iron.
Radio Shack sells a 150 uH choke that w ould w ork just fine. I suggest that you can get a better deal on Ebay.
Again, the most importance purpose that these inductors have is to be high impedance (get out of the w ay) w hen the
Mosfet fires. They store no energy. In fact D2 and D3 are there to absorb any inductive kick back they produce. If you w ould
like to have a short negative output pulse after the desulfating pulse, just remove D2 and D3
Mark
Last Edited By: Tucsonshooter Nov 18 10 5:22 PM. Edited 1 times.

Tucsonshooter

Parts Descriptions - Output Capacitors and Q1

#2 [-]

ESR ESR ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance)

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Posts: 557
Nov 18 10 5:48 PM
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Resistance is not your friend. It makes energy disappear (into heat). The ESR of C6 and C7 w ill make a huge difference in
the output of this circuit. I started w ith 2200uF 25V caps. W hen the Mosfets fired the voltage across them instantly dropped
like a rock. A clear effect of ESR. Next w as 6800uF 25V caps. Better, less drop due to ESR. Finally, 6800uF 63 volt caps. Less
than a volt drop due to ESR.
Q1 - Just use a good Mosfet w ith very low on resistance. The IRF1404 is very common and cheap.
You w ill see more improvement w ith selecting the low est ESR caps (there are tw o of them, tw ice the ESR.)

desulfator2

Congratulations on an innovative and simple design

#3 [-]

Congratulations on an elegant, innovative and simple design.

Thank you for all your valuable contributions.
W ell done Mark!
You have earned an entry in the Historical Record.
Posts: 1059
Nov 18 10 6:52 PM
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Don
Last Edited By: desulfator2 Nov 18 10 6:56 PM. Edited 3 times.

tadgesualdo

#4 [-]
Mark,
Nice w ork!!! Only one thing, I don't see how the caps are in series they look as though they are in parallel to me in the
circuit. Also since both inductors are 100uH, is this crytical, as long as they are the same w ould it not w ork the same.

Posts: 71
Nov 18 10 8:34 PM
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This circuit to me seems to have potential for motor run capacitors because of their very low ESR, it seems to me they w ould
also store more energy than an electrolytic. I tried bypassing the electrolytic caps in my pulser w ith film caps, but this really
didn't w ork like a larger single cap w ith low er ESR total. I can't w ait to try this circuit and test it out, it looks intriguing.
Terry

Tucsonshooter

#5 [-]
Terry
Inductors are time sensitive components. If the voltage across them changes slow ly the inductor w ill exhibit a very low
resistance. This is good to charge up the caps during the long time betw een pulses. Then w hen the Mosfet fires, the
inductors w ill exhibit a very high resistance because the voltages are changing very fast. This is the fundamental
characteristic of an inductor. Now look again at the figure below . W hen the Mosfets turn on the inductors basically disappear
from the circuit and the caps are now in series. Cool stuff isn't it.

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Posts: 557
Nov 18 10 11:27 PM
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Last Edited By: Tucsonshooter Nov 18 10 11:32 PM. Edited 3 times.

Tucsonshooter

Run/Start caps

#6 [-]

Terry
You mentioned using run caps before so I looked at some specs on run/start caps. There w ere pretty vague. So I decided
to do an experiment.

Posts: 557
Nov 19 10 1:43 PM
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I w ired in tw o 80 uF run caps into the circuit.

The follow ing scope photos w ere taken at the same parameters as the first post. (7 us PW , 1700 rate, .25 bat. resistance)

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The above show s the voltage across the load w ith a 80 uF run cap. It show s a low ESR but also show s a lot of inductance.

The above is the current w aveform. (one volt per amp) Again it show s a lot of inductance in the cap.
For comparison the follow ing are w aveforms for a 2200 uf electrolytic and a 100 uf electrolytic caps:

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Above - 2200uf 25V voltage w aveform

Above - 100uF 35V voltage w aveform

The ESR of the run caps are very low but they are very inductive. Also they are very large. A 100uF electrolytic that is half the
size of a tube of lip balm almost out performed it. Still I am impressed that they did as w ell as they did.
An odd thing about the run caps is that I could plainly hear them "singing" the 1700 Hz rate. All the other caps w ere
absolutely quiet.
Keep rockin on Terry
Mark

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Last Edited By: Tucsonshooter Nov 19 10 1:48 PM. Edited 1 times.

tadgesualdo

#7 [-]
I didn't see a clear current comparison betw een your lip balm cap and the motor run cap. It looks like from the scope shot
that the motor run cap did give you very good current in your pulser. How does your 100uF electrolytic do in this regard?
Terry

Posts: 71
Nov 20 10 1:23 AM
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Tucsonshooter

#8 [-]
Out of all the parts in the voltage double circuit, proper selection of the output capacitors w ill have the greatest effect on the
output. In the previous post I w anted to show the output using a few different caps. The cap that produced to highest
output and the best pulse shape w as the 6800uF 63V large electrolytic ($4.20 Digikey price). The run cap is three times the
size, costs $37.54 (famous parts.com), produces a less than desirable w ave shape and less output pow er. Sure, if you have
some run caps in your junk box and w ant to play around w ith this circuit they w ill w ork. The point I w ant to make is if you
w ant to get the most out of this circuit, use large low ESR electrolytics.

Posts: 557
Nov 20 10 12:48 PM
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tadgesualdo

#9 [-]
Mark,
I have been reading, I had no idea that the ESL of motor run caps w as that high to effect the pulse like that. Although how
does that effect the over all performance of the desulfation, by this I mean the "shape" of the pulse.

Posts: 71
Nov 20 10 11:33 PM
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Here is an interesting article that makes a case for perhaps using smaller value film caps, say something in the 30uF range
over 100uF Electrolytic. I w ould be interested in w hat the differences this might present. I do know of some 100uF
polypropylene electrolytic capacitors. To establish w hich caps might be best I w onder if trying several types/brands might be
w arranted. In my opinion the capacitor is 50% of the equation here because it does store some of the charge. Also I w onder
if all motor run caps are created the same, and I w onder if some of the symptoms I have gotten are a result of my using a
motor run cap. Size to me is not as important as performance.
Terry

Tucsonshooter

Posts: 557
Nov 21 10 12:39 AM
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Capacitance - minimum uF and ESR ESR ESR

#10 [-]

Terry
W hat sets the low er limits of the amount of capacitance is how much voltage droop you can stand during the pulse. The
formula for this is dV/dT = I/C. (d= delta or "change in"). This tells you how quickly the voltage w ill drop for a given current
and capacitance. For instance, a 10 uF cap under a 30 amp load w ill drop 3 volts per microsecond. W ay too much droop for
this application. A 100 uF cap w ould drop .3 volts/uS and 1000uF cap w ould drop .03 V/uS. (I like the .03V/uS number) This is
the electrical nature of a capacitor regardly of the type. Now add to this the effect of ESR. Look at the scope photos in the
previous post of the voltage w avefrom of the 100 uF and 2200 uF caps. The w ave shapes are pretty much the same but
there is 2 volts difference in the amplitude. This is the effect of ESR. The 100 uF cap has a higher ESR than the 2200uF cap
and losses more voltage.
W hy did I use a 6800uF 63 volt cap w hen 1000 uf is all the capacitance I should really need? Because the bigger cap has a
much low er ESR.

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Tucsonshooter

Pulse shape - a tough one to explain

#11 [-]

The shape of a pulse determines its frequency content. A pulse that has a very fast/fall rise time and a flat top is rich in a
lot of high frequency energy. A pulse w ith a slow rise time w ith a rounded top has far less high frequency energy in it. W hy is
this important? A lead acid battery is made of parallel plates. This is the same structure as a capacitor so view a battery as
6 equal sized capacitors in series. W hen you apply high frequency energy to equal capacitors in series the voltage and
current w ill be the same in each one. This is called a "capacitive voltage divider". So, the higher the frequency content of
your pulse the more equal the charge w ill be for each cell. That is w hy w e w ant fast rise times and flat top pulses, it takes
advantage of this capacitive nature a lead acid battery has to equalize the desulfating energy across all the cells.
Posts: 557
Nov 21 10 1:16 AM
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Tucsonshooter

Inductors

#12 [-]

I got in a few more inductors to try in the circuit. So far I have tried three off the shelf parts and a few hand w ould inductors.
I have tested:
- Pulse engineering, PE-53830, 77uH
- Pulse Engineering, PE-53614, 1070uH
- Renco, RL-1960, 680uH
Posts: 557
Nov 21 10 1:35 AM

The difference in the outputs w ere in the tenths of a volt. They all w orked w ell.

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The hand w ound inductors that did not w ork w ell w ere the high permiability cores. They saturated and drew pow er from the
circuit.
I suggest inductors that have a saturation current of at least .5 amps. This is based on my circuit that draw s about .4 amps
w ith a 1700 Hz, 7uS, 30 amp output pulse.

Tucsonshooter

#13 [-]
Francesc
I w ould be honored if you could run a spice model of this circuit.
Mark

Posts: 557
Nov 24 10 10:58 PM
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sitgesn1

Posts: 13
Nov 25 10 5:04 PM
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#14 [-]
Hi Mark,
Its a pleasure for me to include LTSpice of your circuit
Here is the circuit I used for simulation and some comments about components
Capacitors C2 C3 ESR is 0.02 and L1 and L2 ohmic resistance is 10 Ohm
Mosfet driver is a conventional totem pole because TC4426 it is not available for me
Mosfet IRF7468 is a 40V/0.016 Ohm and it is the model I have at hand
Battery model is a simplified one that I frequently use for desulfator circuits but it is adapted at 13V/0.25 Ohm according to
your data

and here are results: V(bat+) is pulse voltage at +Battery and I(V1) is pulse current

Peak current is 34A and its w aveform and peak I believe is very w ell adapted to your Pearson meter
Peak battery voltage presents an overshoot and it is not exactly as your scope one
Inductance values is according to your description... but if you need futher details please let me know
-Francesc
More w aveforms

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Last Edited By: sitgesn1 Nov 25 10 9:54 PM. Edited 1 times.

Tucsonshooter

#15 [-]
Francesc
Thank you for the sim. It is encouraging w hen measurement and simulation agrees.
Mark

Posts: 557
Nov 27 10 1:12 PM
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als

#16 [-]
Mark, let me start off by saying that I think it is great that you
are experimenting w ith improvements. Keep it up.

Posts: 375
Nov 29 10 10:50 AM
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A few points:
1. Try your run caps again w ith much shorter and/or thicker
connections. There is a generous amount of inductance
in those tiny w ires w ith fast rise-times. Ground the case.
2. Tw o or more smaller caps (i.e., 3500 uf + 3500 uf) are
almost alw ays better (and easier to obtain) than one
large (6800 uf) cap. Use the shortest leads possible.
Old PC supplies are good sources for low -ESR caps,
and small ceramic bypass caps in parallel w ith the
electrolytics w ill low er ESR even more.
3. Use a larger, counter-w ound or thick film (10W or more)
resistor in the output leg. A low -value shunt is even
better. I use 20 mil, 3/8" w ide copper strips, but any
copper plane surface is usable. Stack 'em for more
current, or use thicker/w ider strips. Calibrate w ith
an accurate ammeter. The arrangement show n in
your photos constitutes a low -value choke in series
w ith the pulser output.
4. Use _Large_ leads on the output (AW G #6 or bigger).
The shorter, the better. Composition does not seem
to matter much, but fine strands are easier to handle.
(Think "w elding leads").
5. Use only a lead-acid battery for a load. Preferably,
one the approximate size as your target application.
Use the _same_ battery for your comparisons, and
keep the test times short. (It is sort of aggravating
that the battery under test becomes de-sulfated and
skew s the readings).
If your target is NiCad, your environment changes.
Pulsers have value here, but in a different manner.
Simulated battery loads are just that - simulated.
I made gobs of different versions, based on the
models found around the various vendor and
w hite paper approximations in an attempt to
create a consistent test load for pulsers.
None w orked as good as a genuine LA battery.
6. I found it easier to make a test jig:
http://hmin.tripod.com/al...dysm/pages/jigproto.html
Note the paralleled low -ESR caps and fabricated shunt.
All components are replaceable except the caps including the timer/driver board tucked under the pots.
7. See the timer and driver circuits posted at:
http://hmin.tripod.com/al...dysm/pages/desulf-1.html
I found it easier w ith the TL494-type timer chips - they
have an adjustable dead time, and one of the driver
transistors can be used in F/F mode to give an advance
scope trigger to move the w aveform start to the center

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of the screen. They also have a w ider timing range and

more consistent and adjustable pulse w idth than 555-types.
Note that these are all earlier versions; I never got around
to posting the later attempts and finished versions, w hich
included using the on-chip comparators for much the same
functions as Don's PIC-based versions. Maybe sometime.
8. Note that the total energy in a voltage-doubler circuit is
going to be approximately the same as the conventional.
W hether the higher-voltage/low er-current is more useful
in this application is not something I am prepared to
address w ithout extensive testing. If you can find some
roughly equivalent batteries and attach one of each
type pulser, monitor the results, and post them, it w ould
be w onderful. Good luck on finding equivalents.
9. It w ould also be helpful if, after you have changed the
resistors out for a shunt, if you w ould post the displays
for the shunt and the coil-type pickup (on the same screen).
It very w ell could be that the inductive pickup w ill be a
valuable tool, since it does not require that the output
lead be interrupted. I have a vague recollection of just
such an attachment that I tried in the past (in w hich I w as
not terribly impressed w ith the results), but may have
missed something or had a biased notion of the method.
By all means, keep it up. I absolutely am not trying to
discount your efforts or discourage you from further
development, but merely trying to pass on experiences
and my limitless know ledge on the subjects.
*** Add the appropriate number of smileys here ***
Sorry for the length of this post - I don't seem to be
able to do short essays.
*** Add the appropriate number of smileys here, too ***
Cheers again.
http://hmin.tripod.com/als/

Tucsonshooter

Posts: 557
Nov 30 10 1:22 AM
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#17 [-]
als, I agree...........you do love to talk, w hich is fine by me.
I also agree w ith a lot that you said.
- Paralleling caps is a good w ay to reduce ESR. I have stated that in several of my posts.
- Not only using large gauge hook up leads but tw ist them together. This improves energy transfer and reduces
emissions.
- I am sorry I can't agree w ith the shunt resistor current measurement. It has proven to be too problematic.
- I use a real battery w hen I can, but I have been designing desulfators for 24,36 and 48 volt systems. Those batteries
are just too freaking heavy! I use a battery simulator for the higher voltages. It is also easier to change the internal
resistance w ith a simulator.
- You w ill notice that I post the equations that calculate the output and follow it up w ith real measurements. The only time
I posted bad data w as w hen I used a shunt resistor for the peak current measurement.
- Yes, I w ill keep on doing this. I have been w orking in high energy electronics my w hole career and now that I am retired,
I get to play.
Cheers to you, als
Mark

Tucsonshooter

#18 [-]
Francesc
I think the differences in the battery voltage w aveform betw een measured and simulated w ere due to me using a battery
simulator instead of a real battery. The simulator consisted of a resistor in series w ith a large capacitor. Voltage w as being
supplied to the capacitor from a bench pow er supply. The series resistor modeled the internal resistance of the battery. Your
spice model had much more inductance than my resistive simulator.
Again, Thank you for running the Spice simulation. Fun Stuff.....

Posts: 557
Nov 30 10 1:41 AM
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Tucsonshooter

Mark

Inductors

#19 [-]

I tried tw o pulse engineering PE-54041 25 uH inductors in the design and they w orked fine. They have a 20 V*uS (volts X
microsec.) parameter.

Posts: 557
Dec 2 10 12:34 AM
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emsvitil

Tripler, Quad,.....

#20 [-]

If you remove the flyback diodes that are used for the inductors, it looks like you could have multiple stages (triple,
quad......)
You'd need N-1 NFets w ere N is how many stages, and the stages in the middle w ould need to have inductors on both sides
of the capacitor, but it looks pretty easy to keep pumping up the output....
The only problem I can think of is gate voltage being high enough for the 2nd, 3rd NFet.
Posts: 41
Dec 14 10 6:59 AM
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