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BETWEEN:
Her Majesty the Queen
v.
Owen Edward Smith
***********
TRANSCRIPTION OF COMPACT DISC
Friday, March 20, 2015
***********
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- ii APPEARANCES
Party: Her Majesty the Queen
Counsel
W. Paul Riley
Kevin Wilson
Public Prosecution Service of
Canada
900 - 840 Howe Street
Vancouver, B.C. V6Z 2S9
t: 604-666-0704
f: 604-666-1599
Party: Smith, Owen Edward
Counsel
Kirk I. Tousaw
John W. Conroy, Q.C.
Matthew J. Jackson
Bibhas D. Vaze
4768 Fairbridge Drive
Duncan, B.C. V9L 6N8
t: 604-836-1420
f: 866-310-3342
Party: Sant Cannabis
Counsel
Julius H. Grey
Genevive Grey
Grey, Casgrain
1155 Ren-Lvesque Ouest
Suite 1715
Montral, Quebec H3B 2K8
t: 514-288-6180 Ext: 229
f: 514-288-8908
Agent
Franois Lacasse
Director of Public
Prosecutions of Canada
160 Elgin Street
12th Floor
Ottawa, OntarioK1A 0H8
t: 613-957-4770
f: 613-941-7865
Agent
Jeffrey W. Beedell
Gowling Lafleur Henderson LLP
160 Elgin Street, Suite 2600
Ottawa, Ontario K1P 1C3
t: 613-786-0171
f: 613-788-3587
Agent
Guy Rgimbald
Gowling Lafleur Henderson LLP
160 Elgin Street
26th Floor
Ottawa, Ontario
K1P 1C3
t: 613-786-0197
f: 613-563-9869
613.521.0703
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- iii APPEARANCES
Party: Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Counsel
Agent
Andrew K. Lokan
D. Lynne Watt
Debra McKenna
Paliare, Roland, Rosenberg,
Gowling Lafleur Henderson LLP
Rothstein, LLP
160 Elgin Street
155 Wellington Street West
Suite 2600
35th Floor
Ottawa, Ontario
Toronto, Ontario M5V 3H1
K1P 1C3
t: 416-646-4300
t: 613-786-8695
f: 416-646-4301
f: 613-788-3509
Party: British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Counsel
Agent
Jason B. Gratl
D. Lynne Watt
Gratl & company
Gowling Lafleur Henderson LLP
601-510 West Hastings Street
160 Elgin Street, Suite 2600
Vancouver, B.C.
Ottawa, Ontario
V6B 1L8
K1P 1C3
t: 604-694-1919
t: 613-786-8695
f: 604-608-1919
f: 613-788-3509
Party: Canadian AIDS Society, Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network and
HIV & AIDS Legal Clinic Ontario
Counsel
Agent
Paul K. Burstein
Marie-France Major
Ryan Peck
Richard Elliott
Burstein, Bryant, Barristers
Supreme Advocacy LLP
6 Adelaide Street East, 5th Flr
100- 340 Gilmour Street
Toronto, Ontario
Ottawa, Ontario
M5C 1H6
K2P 0R3
t: 416-927-7441
t: 613-695-8855 Ext: 102
f: 416-488-9802
f: 613-695-8580
Party: Medicinal Cannabis Patients' Alliance of Canada Inc.
Counsel
Marie L. Cassis
5 Viewpointe Private
Ottawa, Ontario
K1V 1M5
t: 613-698-9523
f: 613-733-1319
Party: Marc Boyer for Vancouver Quadra Electoral District
Association for the Marijuana Party
This party is not represented by counsel.
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- iv TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE
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Ottawa, Ontario
--- Upon commencing on Friday, March 20, 2015
at 9:00 a.m.
(0900)
seated.
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You may be
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Thank you.
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Ms. Riley...?
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(0901)
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products.
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issue.
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We are not
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decision?
threshold?
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just that this Court has come out with a very thorough
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Are you
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particular context.
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It may
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the analysis.
In effect --
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And I
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related act.
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marihuana derivatives.
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opiates that are all derived from opium poppies but they are
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trial judges ruling said, Well, you must apply the medical
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about.
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These are
The
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case are fully set out in the Crowns factum and Im just
So
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He was
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problems.
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clear.
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There are
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extracts.
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sale in Canada.
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the evidence was that there were five ways of adjusting it,
topical administration.
Smoking,
These
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conclusion.
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scheme.
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Right.
I think when
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About smoking?
Well, no question that
smoking.
detriments.
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So it
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indeed, the CBCC, the entity that was in issue in this case
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vaporizers.
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vaporizer.
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trans-mucosal spray.
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legally.
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plant extract.
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The notices of
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The
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Yes.
I was
So neither the
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administration.
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we look at Tab --
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So if
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Right.
-- what I was struggling
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with is how one could change the form from dried to some
latter.
Right.
I think its
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But we
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On the
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to possess.
Regulations.
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side.
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Thats one
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All they
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determine necessary.
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form.
(As read)
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That happens.
No one is suggesting
Thats
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The old regime that was in place in this instance has now
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It only authorizes
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So they
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response is listed.
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in foods or by vaporizing.
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administration.
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(As read)
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possess it.
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are carrying those around with you outside of your house you
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of separate substances.
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very difficult.
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marihuana and you are engaged in using that and you, in the
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And we know
It
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the line drawing common sense framework that you are urging
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on us?
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Yes, I can.
Just on
I think
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marihuana only.
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vaporized.
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Regulations.
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(As read)
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operates.
is available.
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is this:
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But my point
And so
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Canadas resin.
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Access to drugs in
pillars for Canadas drug regime, the CDSA and the FDA.
FDA.
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the FDA.
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therapeutic purposes:
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And as I
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process.
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So in the course of
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for use.
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And this is
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particular case.
means.
of the scheme.
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the drug.
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someone believes they need the drug and that it helps them.
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therapeutic purposes.
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section 7 analysis.
How so?
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that the law is not arbitrary when the rule is that the onus
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it is arbitrary.
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logical.
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them to be approved.
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Right.
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irrationality or arbitrariness.
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they are --
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Mhmm, right.
Well,
Ill just say this that consider the conduct of the person
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medical purposes.
third parties.
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marihuana.
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He
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resolved in Malmo-Levine.
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again.
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Malmo-Levine.
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narrow one.
Yes.
Well, it --
imprisonment.
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so on.
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regulatory responses.
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different parts.
No one would
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regulatory field.
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Here it is a complex
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thats unconstitutional.
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In response to that
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scheme.
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It never
It doesnt do that.
not allow for and has never allowed for the operation of
marihuana dispensaries.
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not even in respect of the very offence that you have been
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And I also --
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Is this really a
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force.
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in that case.
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this.
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can do it.
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Because the
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entailed in that.
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Is it in some way
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consideration?
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The
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question here.
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It has to be an
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substance.
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addressed.
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implicated.
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Right.
is protected by section 7.
milk.
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rights.
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no.
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amount of time.
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Right.
Well, I guess I
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protection.
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However,
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the analysis?
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That
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arises.
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person that you would say, Well, you need to scrutinize the
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deprivations.
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Thats right.
But its -- the way your
No.
No.
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liberty.
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imprisonment.
But the
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You cant.
You cant.
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arbitrary?
Its
--
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But it seems to me -- I
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Its a
Dont you?
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side of that.
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Parker.
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it interacts.
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misunderstanding.
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But
Well -Perhaps Im
Im sorry.
Yes.
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issue.
healthcare.
We claim healthcare.
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liberty.
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condition, marihuana.
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that.
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didnt --
judge on that?
Right.
becomes:
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looking at it.
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Right.
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judge -- the judge held -- the problem here, the judge held
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But the
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that.
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didnt --
judge on that?
Right.
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And without
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Right.
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things:
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Right, and --
Yes.
And we just cant go
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evidence.
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with it.
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Right.
Not that you disagree
Right.
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factum.
appeal
the conclusion.
circumstances.
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question.
It was general.
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witness.
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the studies.
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the research?
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Right.
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Our point is --
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relied upon was the fact that some of the witnesses after
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dried marihuana.
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referenced, well,
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substance.
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If
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Mernagh the Court said, Look, you need to have more than
infringed.
If you
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threshold.
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the court of appeal and the trial court when we look at the
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passages.
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The
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fundamental justice.
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fundamental justice.
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So thats the
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flexible.
prohibition.
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program.
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It also has, as I
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this that the Crown says we should succeed on the merits for
factum.
respond.
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an appellate court.
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regulatory environment.
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consulted.
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production, trafficking.
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stream -- scheme.
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A finding on -- if a finding of
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production.
So in
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considerable confusion.
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branches of government.
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it.
litigious.
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deal with.
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insignificant.
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this.
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of the CDSA which is what the judge did, didnt just say
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the way to fix this is to read into the MMARs the reference
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question.
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is.
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constitutionally deficient.
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unworkable.
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of this ruling.
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Right.
I mean I --
Okay.
Anyway, I think
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Right.
Thank you.
(Off microphone)
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(1004)
Mr. Smith and after the table of contents on the third page
todays purposes.
MR. TOUSAW:
of the case.
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key things.
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plant.
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10
material.
The medicinal
They are not
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interveners.
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risk.
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--- Pause
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MR. TOUSAW:
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last page of each tab sets out the issue of smoking and its
unacceptable.
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read)
(As
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conditions.
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effects quickly.
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It produces
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middle of the night in pain after two hours and then having
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when you can orally ingest it and achieve the benefits over
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a longer term.
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That
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is a factual issue that was found that the Crown can avoid
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And
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smoking we dont know what the dangers are in not having -613.521.0703
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MR. TOUSAW:
Three things.
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authority.
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the effectiveness and the risk profile of how you take those
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The compounds
With respect to
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Thats how
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it.
And
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marihuana.
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you.
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shown before the trial judge and his findings of facts amply
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support that.
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pathogenecity.
Its the reason why when you have a rash you put a cream on
You certainly can do both but wouldnt you rather use less
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And they
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That is,
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MR. TOUSAW:
up.
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THC oil.
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extracted product.
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either.
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marihuana alone.
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Thats trafficking.
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Thats
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distribution of marihuana.
marihuana to patients.
What
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problems identified.
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issue.
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My
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principle.
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Thats a basic
He
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the same way that Big M Drug Mart charged with an offence
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religious belief.
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Corporations
Its a company.
Its unconstitutional as
Therefore --
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MR. TOUSAW:
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standing.
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regulatory scheme.
argument at trial.
patients.
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Mr. Smith is a
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Charter arguments.
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him.
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that he made and have them ruled on, but having got the
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words, had it --
MR. TOUSAW:
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MR. TOUSAW:
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clearly.
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that and produced for other people it could have given rise
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impugn restriction.
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had quite a bit to say about the issue of standing and the
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of that would really take away from the fact that the
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Charter.
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laws, laws that violate the Charter and take away autonomy,
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prosecutors.
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It is a
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that position.
that there are risks attendant with smoking that are not
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He wasnt
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was accepted again by the trial judge on facts that are not
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Because I think my
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suffering.
considered together.
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restriction.
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fact that, as the trial judge said, she got her life back.
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those products.
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dignity.
the person.
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and Ms Herman.
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You cant
long.
this despite the fact that in the RIAS accompanying the MMAR
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We want
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Its unacceptable
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public setting.
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turn the medicine into a capsule that you can then take
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unlawful substance.
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Again, I
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circumstances.
burden on people.
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vaporization --
MR. TOUSAW:
smoking.
of the patients?
Yes.
-- alternatives to
MR. TOUSAW:
There was.
Vaporization, of course,
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inappropriate or ineffective.
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treatment.
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process.
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Quin.
it made her cough and she was worried about ripping her
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to reduce swelling.
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an anti-inflammatory.
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So what she
THC is an anti-inflammatory.
CBDD is
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inhalation does.
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delivery.
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You spray it on to
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MR. TOUSAW:
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All right.
Sure.
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the objective with the means that the state goes about in
regulatory scheme.
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the analysis.
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strainer into the tea with a little bit of milk because the
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Thats lawful.
Thats lawful.
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fat and milk will then solubilize with the resin glands and
now produced THC in a weak oral solution and then she would
take the tea strainer out and set it off to the side because
Not legal.
She has
derived it.
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Substances Act.
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substances.
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cannabis.
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untested.
I mean, its
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the objectives.
Thats
The
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connection there.
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intrusive.
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vacuum.
Substances Act.
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abuse.
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recognized in Malmo-Levine.
That is legitimate
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Im sorry.
How is your
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MR. TOUSAW:
first instance.
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It doesnt mean
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plant.
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flowers into their hands and were left with a small bed of
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remained unlawful.
to read Section 2.
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ingested or inhaled.
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And that --
Sorry.
That brings me
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Yes.
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constitutional remedies.
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appeal.
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It was not.
MR. TOUSAW:
first time.
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safety.
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This is not
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exemption?
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MR. TOUSAW:
MMAR regime.
And medical
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physician.
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about.
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for the first time before this Court without any argument or
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point about the fact that they have had three years
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argue for less time than the year given by the court of
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Justice Abella.
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robust.
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MMARs.
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response.
In
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case.
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of the person.
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appropriate remedy.
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Proving intent,
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purposes of trafficking.
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which Mr. Smith stood charged was possession for the purpose
of trafficking.
them.
particular case.
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Thats the
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more and plaguing the courts for that same span of time.
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criminalize.
clear so that the courts understand what the law is, so that
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Absolutely.
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possess.
MR. TOUSAW:
marihuana.
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of appeal.
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Is that --
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marijuana.
cannabis.
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purposes already.
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Thank you.
(1105)
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(1123)
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Thank you.
Mr. Chan...?
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(ONTARIO)
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(1123)
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Justices.
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the scheme.
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That would
It would
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entitled to it.
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and argued that because there is a gap in the law that poses
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problem.
declarations of invalidity.
conviction of individuals.
MR. CHAN:
submissions.
(1128)
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Thank you.
Very good.
Mr. Lokan...?
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ASSOCIATION
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(1129)
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That is to say
the courts below did not alter the burden of proof when it
comes to arbitrariness.
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principle.
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I say there
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There
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medical treatment.
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of fundamental justice.
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been set.
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arbitrariness.
and court of appeal made some comments about how they would
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that are made about why this is necessary but that was not a
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That
As a practical
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submissions.
points.
(1134)
Thank you.
Thank you.
LIBERTIES ASSOCIATION
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(1134)
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incarceration.
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we say.
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findings of fact.
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Its also
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The right
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liberty.
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Here BCCLA
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liberty, security of the person and life are -- they are all
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The right to
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Its not
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of fundamental justice.
MR. GRATL:
(1139)
Thank you.
Reply...?
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(1139)
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I think we have to
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others.
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that the real gravamen here has to take into account the law
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is an exception.
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So I just --
Right.
Yes.
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constitutional questions.
So Mr. Tousaw
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pharmaceutical purposes.
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That would
My
two.
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No one can
say that.
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With respect --
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interrupt you.
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is no longer in force?
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Yes.
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There is no question
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will take guidance from what this Court says about that
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Yes.
Thank you.
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doctors and said that they could give that evidence but it
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And the
And then --
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I think that we --
Oh.
-- have findings and
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Right.
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from a doctor.
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(1146)
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its decision.
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Thank you.
Thank you.
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CERTIFICATION
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___________________________
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Karen Par
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