argon purity

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Topic General / Technical / argon purity
By aerowelder

Date 05-17-2008 11:57

Is there a device that can dry and remove moisture from argon before it enters the
welding machine (TIG)?
By Milton Gravitt

Date 05-17-2008 14:40

If you use 99.99% UHP argon you shouldn't have to.

By Stephan

Date 05-17-2008 16:46

Milton,
if you kindly permit, I would like to agree with you.
Best regards,
Stephan
P.S. I guess aerowelders post could originate a very very interesting thread...
By Milton Gravitt

Date 05-17-2008 17:19

I agree Stephan.
By Stephan

Date 05-17-2008 22:16

Cheers Milton,
perhaps aerowelder may provide us a bit more information*.
I suppose it might have to do with some rather (moisture) sensitive base
material?
Best regards,
Stephan
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argon purity

* Honestly I hope(!) that Lawrence is likewise already waiting for more

details
By aerowelder

Date 05-20-2008 02:52

Stephan and Milton,

The material I am welding is 6061 T6 aluminum hogout (machined from
a solid block of aluminum) pan assembly welded to a brazed heat
exchanger. The welds then under go an x-ray since the welds are flight
critical. I am experiencing small pockets of cluster porosity. The weld
joint is prepared this way:
The surface is ground with a burr grinder to a depth of .003"-.005" to
remove any oxides. The braze material is at least 1/4" away from the
weld.
The heat exchanger is put in an oven with forced air at 250 degrees F
for 3 hours after the pan assembly has been tacked on.
The filler metal (4043) is cleaned with scotch brite and wiped with
acetone then placed in the oven with the heat exchanger.
After 3 hours the unit and wire are removed and an argon purge is
placed in the pan prior to welding.
I am welding using a Miller Dynasty 350, with settings at :
EP-140 AMPS
EN-200AMPS
AC BALANCE-65%
FREQUENCY-300
# 7 GAS LENS CUP
3/32" 2% LANTHANATED TUNGSTEN
25% HELIUM 75% ARGON SET AT 30CFH
THE weld is pulsed at 350 PPS as recommended by Miller Co. to agitate
the weld to bring any impurities to the surface.
After all this I am still getting porosity in a few spots, anywhere from 210 places that measure .030"-.050 in diameter. This exceeds the
acceptance criteria for AWS D17.1. Since most of the porosity is located
near the root reinforcement I am thinking that it could be caused by
any moisture in the gas. We use a large manifold system that supplies
40 weld booth located throughout our facility. I hope that this helps get
a better picture of what I am trying to achieve.
By Lawrence

Date 05-20-2008 06:24 Edited 05-

20-2008 11:27
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argon purity

As Van Morrison would say.

"Now were getting down to what is really wrong"
Two things I see right off the bat.
During the several hours in the oven, those oxides you removed have
grown right back.. Surface prep for aluminum (weld rod and
componant) that is as critically inspected as you describe must be
cleaned immediatly before welding.
Balence control
The 65% EN balence you are set at with your inverter is equivilant to
your old Synchrowave being set at 10 of 10 on the Max Pen dial.
Back off the balence another 5 or 10% and I think your porosity will
be eliminated.
Your combinaiton of reduced current on the EP side of the half cycle
and 65% dwell time on EN are simply not providing enough Cathodic
Bombardment (cleaning action).
AC Frequencies above 220 Hz are only an annoyance, and the
pulsation (what ever your high and low are set at) won't hurt, but
with your current balence control settings and oxide removal
practices it won't help either.
As nice and Flexable as a "True Squarewave" Asymmetric inverter
power supply may be.. The fact is that 99% of X-ray quality AC
GTAW welds will be made within the paramater threshold achieved
by an old transformer rectifier like Synchrowave or Precision Tig and
it's "traditonal squarewave" AC power delivary.
Its not a gas problem (I bet)... All the Kings horses and all the
Kings men cannot overcome basic AC arc physics and the need for
good cathodic etching.
Edit:
Your garden variety transformer rectifier traditional square wave
power supply will produce 68% EN when set on max penetration...
Lincoln 68% EN, Miller 68% EN, Esab 68% EN, brand doesn't
matter. With that traditional square wave set at max pen, will you
have sufficient cleaning action to make X-ray quality welds in
aluminum? Not likely in most circumstances!
So in essence you started your procedure at an AC balence setting
that was not very likely to produce sufficient cleaning and then you
starved it another 60 amps with your Asymmetric 140/200 amplitude
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setting.
Is it beginning to come clear?
around for the first time.

It's a tough subject to get your brain

So why did we buy an $8,000 dollar inverter welding power supply

that can go beyond that 68% EN all the way to 99%?
Good question!
The sales guy said it makes smaller fillets and stirrs the puddle... Ok,
it does.. But the X-rays aren't lying on those smaller weld profiles.
Dynasty 350 also has the unique ability to produce *Triangular*
wave forms... Nice whiltle/bell... and very good for lighting a room,
but don't try to use it to join two pieces of metal
To get a consistant X-ray quality Alternating Current GTA weld on
aluminum... You must sufficiently etch the metal with EP and there is
no way around it. Now your $8,000 inverter has several ways
around this issue.. But unfortunatly there is nothing published
regarding succsessful standard practices for Aysemmetric AC power
delivary on aluminum.
One way around the issue is to run your EP for a radically short dwell
time.. 2-5% EP but at an equally radical amplitude. Remember It
doesn't so much matter how the EP is delivered, as long as it gets
there in sufficient amounts. A short blast of high amperage EP will
do more than any pulsation/stirring your Miller rep ever suggests.
This kind of procedure (Asymmetric True Square Wave AC power)
takes plenty of trials to nail down when you take it near the limit.
Most of the time its just simpler to scale back to what you know will
work rather than trying to create some designer wave form to do the
same job a 1988 Synchrowave can do as soon as you slap the part
on the workbench.
It becomes very easy with one of these fancy machines to go right to
the limit of high performance and take that next step over it into the
territory of diminishing returns.... Too much of a good thing etc.
By Stephan

Date 05-20-2008 15:47

Lawrence,
just before I have to leave the forum again, it's a m u s
t for me to say this very briefly:
"Your explanations are truly extraordinary!"

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Best regards and thanks for let me having learned somewhat

again!
Stephan
By aerowelder

Date 05-20-2008 22:45 Edited 05-21-

2008 22:46
Lawrence,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I am getting tired
of reworking these two or three times before they pass x-ray. I am
going to weld a new unit tomorrow trying your suggestions,
decrease the time spent on EN to 55%, drop the HZ to around 200
and perform all cleaning after it is removed from the oven(plus
keeping my fingers crossed). I also will change the size of
tungsten to 1/8" so it can handle the extra time on EP. Should I
increase the amperage of EP also? They should return from x-ray
by Friday and I will post the results.
By aerowelder

Date 05-24-2008 21:24

Lawrence,
I have welded a new part and have had it x-rayed. I only had one
defect and that was a .050" tungsten inclusion. I believe that was
because I first tried 3/32" and quickly realized that that was too
small of a diameter. I did have a few pores of porosity but they
were well within acceptable limits. Nothing like what I was getting
before. Thank you for the handy tips. I was thinking contaminated
gas but it was just my incorrect settings. I have learned something
new today. I hope to use this information in the future.
By Lawrence

Date 05-24-2008 21:41

I love it when a plan comes together!

By TimGary

Date 05-27-2008 01:43

Great call Lawrence!

By Stephan

Date 05-20-2008 15:17

aerowelder,
first off, thanks for the information you have provided!
And as I thought, might there ever be a better explanation or bulk of

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excellent recommendations as even that what has come from

Lawrence and... has additionally been confirmed by Tommy?
NO!
I would entirely agree with Lar when he says:
"During the several hours in the oven, those oxides you removed
have grown right back.. Surface prep for aluminum (weld rod and
componant) that is as critically inspected as you describe must be
cleaned immediatly before welding."
and:
"Its not a gas problem (I bet)... All the Kings horses and all the
Kings men cannot overcome basic AC arc physics and the need for
good cathodic etching."
Even as well the superior explanations on what the welding power
supplies are capable to perform were an enjoyment to read. Truly
excellent...
I humble mean to say that everything you have described is 100%
professionalism in work and everything what Lawrence has stated is
100% of professional technological advice based upon immense
expertise.
I am quite sure when following Lawrence' recommendations the
problem will dissappear faster than it could emerge.
The idea with the hose materials might have been an "option" if the
conditions were somewhat different from those ones you have
reported. And I am certain if the hose materials were the reason for
the porosity you surely would have observed "porosity problems"
more than once since using this manifold system, serving so many
workplaces with shielding gas.
And this finally would confirm the very first statement coming from
Milton who said:
"If you use 99.99 UHP argon you shouldn't have to!"
It would be great if you might keep us in the loop for any progression
in this very interesting topic*...
Best regards,
Stephan
* ...very interesting thread. Have learned a lot! Thanks for that!
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By Stephan

Date 05-18-2008 09:48

aerowelder,
forgive me, it was unkind of me to speak in the third person singular as
far as the person, namely you, is present!
Please take my apologies.
It sounds very interesting to me what you have written.
Could you give us a bit more on information (base material, application,...)?
Thanks and heartfelt best regards,
Stephan
By Lawrence

Date 05-18-2008 18:38

I have a *little* experience with an argon purifying device.

It was a little stainless object about the shape of a medium sized salami. It
was hooked to our piped in argon in order to meet above average purity
standards for GTA welding Titanium compressors for Pratt and for various CFM
engine componants. I recall being told not to touch it because it was somehow
dangerous. It was mounted at the top of the Z axis of a Sciacky 6 axis
Accuweld workstation.
I was simply the night shift welding operator at the time so I really don't know
which specific procedures required the argon filter and what exactly the filter
did mechanically.... I might be able to contact the engineer who did all the real
thinking on these projects and see if he might recall some specifics about the
purity standards and the equipment itself.. I don't know if the thing was
specific to moisture or if it filterd other things as well.
By Stephan

Date 05-19-2008 08:31

Hey Lawrence,
ahhh, as I guessed!
I really supposed that you may have experience with High Purity GTAW
applications, as I really supposed that in particular Tommy (Aircraft Welding)
and Henry (Master of Titanium-Welding), to name only two of many more
appreciated colleagues, might have as well!
As for Tommy I was likewise right...

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Waiting now for Henry

post's initiator.

and - hopefully - some more information from the

You know, I have a slightly different idea, since I can recall to have
experienced somewhat in the past which has happened in a large German
shipbuilding project.
The shielding gas Argon 4.6 (99.996%) has been delivered by - at that time
the company has existed, but was meanwhile purchased by a large USAmerican Gas supplier - a highly esteemed German gas supplier.
I can remember the responsible gas supplier's welding engineer has called
me on the phone to discuss the problem - which was porosity - or better the
problem's solution, respectively.
Their client has assumed the shielding gas purity in regard to moisture was
insufficient and had yield to even the porosity. As you can imagine, the gas
supplier has disagreed with the customer and has searched for "multiple"
support among experts on his argumentation at that time.
So far as I can say, it was not the gas purity, since as well as they have used
Argon 5.0 (99.999%) they could not resolve the problem, what was the
reason for my entire agreement with Miltons predications.
The final result whereas was an entirely different one, and this was
extremely interesting and most impressive!
Finally and at the end of the day they used different gas hose materials
which were more resistant against mositure or hydrogen diffusion(!!). The
hoses, used within the hose packages and within the machine were
exchanged by different ones. Please forgive me that I can't recall what kind
of specific material it was at that time, but...
subsequent to these experiences there has been inquired a research project
in Germany which was monetarily supported by a particular consortium of
industrial companies.
Even this investigation has recently been carried out over a period of 2 years
and the topic "gas hoses" to be used in GTAW has been investigated e x t e
n s i v e l y. The results are concluded in a final report having a size of 204
pages(!). A tremendous number of measurements and calculations have
been accomplished and - I must repeat - the results are very impressive.
This should - of course - not mean, that a purifying device used to dehydrate
the shielding gas would not be the better solution. But as I have read what
aerowelder has wrote, I was reminded immediately on these experiences.
And additionally, I personally have - by now and quite comparable with what
Tommy wrote (Never heard of a purifying device used in process before .....
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interesting.) - not seen any industrial application where a purifying device

was used.
This is, why it was - once again - so interesting to having read what your
extraordinary personal experience has shown here!
Thanks and best regards,
Stephan
P.S. Great link by Marty Sims...
By Lawrence

Date 05-19-2008 12:37

This look remarkably like the one we used back in the 1990's
https://www.mathesontrigas.com/pdfs/products/WeldAssure-Gas-Purifier.
pdf
By Stephan

Date 05-19-2008 15:01

Hmmm,
very interesting!
Never seen before!
Lawrence I hope you don't mind when I kindly ask: "Would you
personally mean from your experience, that "normal" purity grades of e.
g. argon are not(!) suitable for "normal" materials, e.g. Aluminum
alloys?
I would have guessed that highly reactive materials as stated by
OBEWAN (e.g. zirconium) would need some very special purity grades
even e.g. Argon 4.8 or 5.0 but would have never guessed that "normal"
purity grades, e.g. 4.6, would need additional devices to achieve sound
results.
If so, I mean the gas suppliers might have a general problem, and a
very serious one to say the least.
I would not believe that the gas manufacturers and suppliers would
take the risk of providing shielding gases containing that high amounts
of moisture that the welding results could fail.
Exceptions, of course, may prove the rule.
Even that was the reason for the investigation I have mentioned in my
previous post. The driving force to inquire and subsequently carrying
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out this research project was even the gas supplying industry who
wanted to clarify the issue once for all, and as I said, the results have
shown that in particular the surrounding conditions (especially longterm humidity) can have a tremendous influence on the welding results
when affecting the gas hose materials being used for hose packages
etc. And this as well as for relatively "normal "base materials as
aluminum and its alloys.
After the research was done, the gas supplying industry was
"whitewashed" and regained its reputation again.
But to keep it seriously. I am certain that the "gas people" do take their
jobs very seriously in particular when considering what huge amount of
importance shielding gases have on the physical welding conditions and
the final welding results.
Whereas using such devices in highest level applications - as described
by OBEWAN - for re-circulating e.g. the shielding gas from a shielding
gas chamber, makes - at least in my humble opinion - quite sense.
Since these materials as mentioned, most likely forgive nothing.
Best regards,
Stephan
By Lawrence

Date 05-19-2008 15:24 Edited 05-

20-2008 15:52
Stephen,
I make no judgement at all on the argon purification topic. It's way
above my paygrade
My personal experience/observation has been that "welding grade
gasses" do the job when they comply with specifications. GTAW of
Aluminum is like a Canary in a coal mine! If the gas is bad the
results are usually evident immediatly... Refractory alloys and
Titanium are quite a different thing however. The amount of oxygen
or nitrogen (the most common contaminants by far) it takes to foul a
titanium weld is far far below the threshold of contamination it takes
to make a change in the surface color of the weld... This fact applies
for both Alpha case and for the weld depth entire. A Titanium weld
can be embrittled to the point of non conformance with a perfect
visual appearence and perfect X-ray result. So I can see the
motivation of an OEM to desire extra precautions in some specific
instances.
I suspect the in line >gizmo< I mentioned that we used may have
been a device that was a safety precaution stipulated by an OEM
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against some contaminant that might come during switching of

bottles or filling of dewers.
By Stephan

Date 05-19-2008 15:29

Ahhh!
I (mean to) understand!
Very reasonable at all!
Thanks and best regards to you Lawrence!
Stephan
By TimGary

Date 05-22-2008 12:47

OK, so a while back I was helping figure out a similar problem.

We didn't have so much of a porosity issue, but excessive
discoloration of shielded SS autogenous GTAW tube welds.
At the time we were using 99.999% pure certified gas from a bulk
liquid storage tank in which we received a purity cert from the
vendor for every purchase, plus we were having a third party test the
gas as well to validate purity.
However, when we had the gas tested from various weld station
throughout the plant, we found slight moisture and oxygen
impurities. At this point we started thinking about buying one of
those expensive filters to add to the system.
I kept looking for a cause and the determining factor was that the
further down the line from the bulk tank we got, the impurity level
would rise as well.
Then I looked up at our manifold system and actually "saw" it for the
first time as a carbon steel screw pipe manifold. That was one of
those moments where I smacked myself in the forehead and said
wake up stupid... It seems that the tiniest leak in a fitting not only
allows pure gas to escape, it also allows impurities to enter. To make
matters worse, the longer the manifold is allowed to sit without being
used (weekend holidays etc.) the worse the contamination becomes
as more moisture is allowed in which starts corrosion, which either
worsens or makes more leaks.
Anyway, we ran some SS tubing straight from the bulk tank
connection to the auto welder stations and Viola!, no more problems.
Also let me point out that during this time I learned that the green
rubber gas hose typically used to connect a welder to a bottle or
manifold absorbs moisture at such a rate as to effectively ruin gas
purity for SS autogenous welding and Titanium welding. HDPE hose,
if any is a must.
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Tim
By Stephan

Date 05-22-2008 15:45

Tim,
thank you very much for sharing your experiences and
for hereby picking up this interesting topic again!
Quote:
"I kept looking for a cause and the determining factor was that the
further down the line from the bulk tank we got, the impurity level
would rise as well."
Unquote.
Your experience is quite comparable with what has been found out
- even though in another coherence (plastic hoses) - in the course
of the mentioned investigation. The longer the hoses and the more
susceptible the material was for moisture diffusing/effusing the
worse the problems occurred. This is understandable due to the
influence of unit area as one important variable within the
equation of how much impurities can be assumed finally.
Your statement (quote):
"It seems that the tiniest leak in a fitting not only allows pure gas
to escape, it also allows impurities to enter." (unquote)
confirms whereas what Marty has already said by posting (quote):
"... so the most likely problems have to be ruled out first, such as
hose connections...".
Unquote.
And this Tim (quote):
"Anyway, we ran some SS tubing straight from the bulk tank
connection to the auto welder stations and Viola!, no more
problems." (unquote)
hits, from my humble standpoint, the nail right on the head!
There can surely be nothing better chosen than Stainless Steel
hosing for shielding gas manifolds. You experts may correct me
when I am wrong by thinking so, but all what I have read and
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heard, stainless steel (+ leak-proved connections) appears to be

the optimal solution for shielding gas manifolds.
However, as for the materials being used within the hose packages
please let me list hereinafter, what the examination has yield.
To avoid all the very tricky details of the investigation I list
subsequently even those four hose materials been strongly
recommended to be used for shielding gas hoses in welding:
1. BUTYL (http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_Products/
Butyl/Butyl_Polymers/Worldwide/Grades_and_DataSheets/
Butyl_Polymers_Exxon_Butyl_Grades.asp)
2. PTFE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene)
3. PVDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinylidene_fluoride)
4. A particular shielding gas hose which is available in Europe and
which is a kind of special plastic composite material. However,
there are no further details on its specific composition available.
What has been found out as well is, that it should be avoided to
use "silicon hoses " in welding, since silicon is extremely leaky
against nitrogen diffusion.
Yours was an excellent contribution to this thread, if you permit
that I say so!
Best regards,
Stephan
By Tommyjoking

Date 05-20-2008 08:19

I have to agree with Lawrence on the prep work being out of step...
settings on inverters I am not help at so I agree with all that too!!
Stephan I am very honored you put my name in among the likes of
Lawrence and Henry.....but those two gentlemen have a vast amount of
more experience/knowledge in exotic-critical GTAW then I do. They have
done stuff I have not even imagined yet. TYVM tho!
Best Regards
Tommy
By MBSims

Date 05-19-2008 03:52

If there is moisture, then the dew point of the gas is too high. You need a dew
point of -40 F or lower.

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http://www.drierite.com/default.cfm
Go to the catalog and click on Laboratory Gas Drying Unit.
By Tommyjoking

Date 05-19-2008 04:48 Edited 05-19-2008

04:52
This is weird ...the post I mean. I was getting (visual) porosity on some 5052
welds today.....I knew the cleaning procedures were done right because I did
them, I checked the machine contacts and everything I could think of, then I
checked my hoses for leaks....I just put a new bottle on the previous night...
so. I put my machine regulator on my backup gas bottle and volia....problems
went away immediately. I rekon I got a bottle with some air in it or something.
Never heard of a purifying device used in process before .....interesting.
hey Marty that looks like the same stuff the put in the doors of the planes to
remove mosture....wow I guess I could swipe some canisters and make my own
gas filters eh?
By MBSims

Date 05-20-2008 22:23

I think there are a couple of factors that are usually involved when shielding
gas problems occur. If the gas bottle valve is left open when the cylinder is
empty, air and moisture will contaminate the bottle. The gas distributor is
"supposed" to pull a vacuum on the cylinder prior to filling to remove any air
or moisture that may be present. The folks they hire to fill these cylinders
are not always the sharpest tool in the shed and sometimes take shortcuts
by filling the cylinder without pulling a vacuum first. The problem generally
shows up as porosity, so the most likely problems have to be ruled out first,
such as hose connections. Hardly anyone has the equipment to check the
dew point of the gas to verify it is correct, so it's hard to convince the gas
supplier it is gas contamination unless you either have the proper equipment
or happen to be present when the cylinders are filled.
By Milton Gravitt

Date 05-21-2008 16:57

MBSims , I thought the same until we change suppliers, I was told that
they use a valve now when the cylinder get down to so many pounds of
pressure it will close and it can't be contaminated.
I was always told not to empty the cylinders because of that years a go.
By MBSims

Date 05-22-2008 04:06

Interesting. Apparently they are using "residual pressure valves" which

are designed to maintain a minimum pressure in the cylinder, as you
said. I don't think they are mandatory, so some gas suppliers may not
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be using them.
By DaveBoyer

Date 05-19-2008 05:36

I wonder if a refrigerent drier from a HVAC shop would work, they are relatively
inexpensive and easy to get.
By OBEWAN

Date 05-19-2008 12:15

Yes. Run a Google search or ask a welding gas distributor. We had one
about 20 years ago on an argon welding chamber used to weld nuclear
reactor cores for the navy. Zirconium is very sensitive to gas purity. In
fact, in addition to moisture, it removed other contaminants. We used to
recirculate the chamber gas. I don't recall the brand name now. I never
tampered with it. It was just there.
By OBEWAN

Date 05-19-2008 16:36

I ran a quick Google search and did not find anything specific. What
we had was a "gas dryer". It had some heating elements and I think
some kind of metal mesh. It removed water vapor and oxygen. Our
welding was so sensitive that moisture coming out of the oxide layer
due to heat buildup could contaminate our gas. Part of me thinks we had a
Miller gas dryer, but I went to the website and found nothing. It was a large
blue unit - as big as a Tig weld power supply. The gas line went in "dirty" and
came out "clean".
By OBEWAN

Date 05-19-2008 17:00

Found one gas dryer. You may not need it though for your
application.
The Orion II Gas Dryers are capable of achieving levels of less than
5 PPM of moisture and oxygen. ... Essential for setting up precise weld
schedules ...The web link errors for me - you might need to just use the .
com as a link.
www.polariselectronics.com/Pages/Options1.html
By ason1965

Date 05-19-2008 21:10 Edited 05-27-2008 14:58

I talked to a PMI guy the other day and his piece of equipment needed
extra pure/dry argon as well. He used 'laboratory pure' argon. Which is a
step up from the 99.99 % argon, I guess.
Topic General / Technical / argon purity

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