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PreviousinForum:slipringethernettest NextinForum:Perhapsordinary(primary)batteriescanberecharged.Iwasableto.

parimalam

HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator

ActiveContributor

02/14/20099:24AM

JoinDate:Feb2009
Posts:16

Hi,
Goodday.Thisismyfirstpostonthisforum.wehaveoneofour13.8KV,12.5MW,turbinealternatorhavinghighPDvalues,somespecilist
saysthisalternatorneedstoberewindedtoavoidfailureofwinding.presentlythisgeneratorisrunningonloadabout11MW.myquestion
hereis,howexactlytheresultsarePDmeasurements,itisnecessarytodorewindingthisalternatortoavoidunexpectedfailure???isthere
anywayonecanprolongthelifeofthisalternatorhavinghighPDvalue.Irequestspecilistinthisforumtorespondtothisqueryasquickly
aspossible,sothatitwillbehelpfultotakedecisiononthisissue.kparimalam@gmail.com,+6592326838
thanksandbestregards
K.Parimalam

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#5"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/15/200912:24PM(score2)
Commentsratedtobe"almost"GoodAnswers:
Checkoutthesecommentsthatdon'tyethaveenoughvotestobe"official"goodanswersand,ifyouagreewiththem,ratethem!

#8"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/17/20098:35PM(score1)

CJMcGill
Guru

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator

#1

02/15/200912:18AM

HiParimalam,welcome.
IthasbeenafewyearssinceIdealtwithlargemotorassessmentandrepair,andIamsurprisedthatyouhavenotreceivedanypostsso
far,butIthinkyouwoulddowelltogetinputfromseveralsourcesthatoffertheseservicesprofessionally.
JoinDate:Jul2008
Location:SoCalUSA
Posts:563
GoodAnswers:24

Partialdischarge(PD)whenidentifiedathighlevels,especiallywhenacontinuousmonitoringhasshowadramaticincreaseinlevels,isa
verygoodindicatorofseriousdegradationintheinsulationorcracksinthebarsetc.Sometimeserrorsinplacingthewedgesorflawsin
themetalscanbegintoproducethesedischargepatterns,andusuallyseriousconsequencesarepending.
HereareafewquicklinksIfoundthatmayhelpyou.
discussioninformationanddefinitioninformationanda
supplierofequipmentandservicesspecifictoyourneed
Hopeyougetwhatinformationyouneedinatimelymanner.
Regards,CJ
__________________
Idonot'knowitall',butiwilladmitthatIwouldliketo.CJM

myn1996
Commentator

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator

#2

02/15/20092:27AM

Parimalam,
AhighPDreadingdoesnotmeanthatthegeneratorneedsrewindingasap.Aswithallothermethodsoftestinganddiagnostics,PDisnot
onlyasciencebutratheritisalsoanart.

JoinDate:Jan2009
Location:Philippines
Posts:60

Forexample,EquipmentAmightshowahigherPDvaluecomparedtoEquipmentB.However,experiencedoesnotalwaysshowthat
EquipmentAfailedsoonerthanEquipmentB.InfactEquipmentAlastedtoitsnormallifespanasifitsPDvalueiswithinnormalrange.
Additionally,wasthisequipmenttestedbeforewithPD?Ifitwastested,whatwheretheresults?ComparedtothepastPDresults,isthe

GoodAnswers:4

presentPDvaluetoohigh?Istherateofincreaseacauseofalarm?
Now,thisiswheretheexperienceofthetestingengineercomesin.HistoricalPDdatawouldgreatlyhelpinanalyzingthepresentone.A
wisetestingengineerwouldnotdependononlyjustonetestingmethod.Weretheretestsperformedonthisgeneratorbyyourspecialist?
Whatarethesetests?Whatdidtheresultsimply?
AdditionaltestishighlyrecommendedtoconfirmthePDfindings.AnFDS(frequencydomainspectroscopy)orDFR(dielectricfrequency
response)ifyouwanttheotherterminology,isstronglyrecommendedforthissituation.
__________________
Patriotismisthelastrefugeofscoundrels

parimalam

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator

ActiveContributor

02/15/20099:44AM

JoinDate:Feb2009
Posts:16

DearCJMcGillPoweruser,myn1996Associate,InstruformParticipant,

#4
Inreplyto#2

Ithankallofyoufortakingtimeandprovidingguideline,andIamveryhappytoheartheresponsesandnowIwillfurtherexploreas
peryourrecommendationsandalsotolookforthetestsuchasFDS(frequencydomainspectroscopy)orDFR(dielectricfrequency
response).canyoupleaseadvicemethebestmethodforPDmeasurement,asofnowwehavemeasuredwithonlinePDmeasurement
onlyonceusingtoshibaequipmentandusedinternalsinglewindingtemperatureresistorasasensingelementforthistest.Alsowefound
lotsofwhitepowderonrunningturbinegeneratorandthiswhitepowderbecauseofPDactivityisitnot??.willCO2cleaningonrunning
generatortoremovethesewhitepowderisnecessary,supposeweuseCO2cleaningisthereanychancethatwemaydamageinsulation
furtherleadingtoPD???advicerequired.
Thanksandbestregards
K.Parimalam

CJMcGill
Guru

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator
02/15/20091:34PM

#6
Inreplyto#4

BynowyouhavereadtheexcellentinformationfromSiswanto,withgreatdetailedphotos.(GA)
Inoticedthementionofwhitepowderspecificallyinconnectionwithgreasewhenloosetiesontheleadswerefound.
MyinstinctsleadmetorecognizethatthispowderwillhelpintheidentificationoflocationsaffectedbythePD,andcleaningmayerase
theevidence.Asfarascleaning,thatwoulddependonthepowderpropertiesandwhetherthepowderitselfwillcausefurtherproblems.
JoinDate:Jul2008
Location:SoCalUSA
Posts:563
GoodAnswers:24

Instruform
Associate
JoinDate:Feb2009
Posts:35

Iwillleavethefurtherdiscussionaboutthepowdertomoreexperiencedindividualswithspecificknowledge
__________________
Idonot'knowitall',butiwilladmitthatIwouldliketo.CJM

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator

#3

02/15/20096:53AM

Ihaveover40yearsofPDtestingexperienceandwouldsupportwhatMyn1996&CJMcGillrecommend.PDlimitvaluestandardsaresetfor
newmachinesandhaveonlybeensetinthelast5yearsaftersome20yearsoftrial.Forlifeexpectancyyouneedtoascertainthechange
frompreviousresults/reportstoevaluateyoursituation.Thatiswhywhentestingforservicelifeexpectancytheinception,extinction
voltagesandthedischargeshapeareimportantreadings&observationsandtogetsomeconsistencythesameprofessional&experienced
testershouldbeusedonaregularbasisifpossible.UnfortunatelyPDtestingisstillbothascience&aseatofthepantsfeel.Make
preparationsbyallmeans,havecoilsavailabletolimityouroutagetime,butdon'tpanicyoucouldstillhaveyearsofservicefromthe
machine.

Siswanto
Commentator

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator

#5

02/15/200912:24PM

Dearparimalam:
Welcometothisforum
ourcolleagueCJMcGillandmynhasgiveagoodsharing,Iwouldliketotryoffersolutionbasedonmyexperiencesduringrepairof
GeneratorsinINDONESIA.
JoinDate:Mar2008
Location:JAKARTA.
INDONESIA
Posts:73
GoodAnswers:15

Since10yearsagoIjustfound2casesofPDFailureonGenerators,duetoitsnotdetectedandsettledatearlierstage.
HaveyoutestPDbefore?ifyes,plscomparedtheresulthowfastthePDlevelacceleration,andyouknowwhereisthePDactivities
location?
Attheendwinding?
intheslot?
attheoverhang?
intheinternalwindinginsulation?
IfPDactivitieshasfoundattheendwinding,slotandoverhang,itslittlebiteasytorepair,butiffoundwithinintheinsulationduetovoids
itsverydifficultandalmostimpossibletorepairexceptrewinding.
CanyoutoldmethePDlevelandlocation?whichbarsthathavehighPDlevel?
Followingarticlemaycanhelpyoutomadeadecision.Plsforgivemeifitsnotsufficientinformationforyou..
PARTIALDISCHARGEphenomenononElectricmachine

Coronaactivity
Coronaisdefineastheionizationofgaswhenexposedtoanintenseelectricfield,thedischargehaveawiderangeoffrequencies[40kHz
to100MHz].
PartialDischarge(PD)inthelargegeneratorapplication,isusuallyassociatedwiththehighvoltagestatorconductorbars.
Coronaactivityintherotatingmachine:
SurfacedischargeduetoCoronaatendwinding(EndwindingDischarge)
InternaldischargeduetoCoronaatinsideoftheinsulation(voidsordelamination)
SlotdischargeCoronaatgroundwallinsulationresultingfromlosscontactbetweenbarandcore.(damagedonthesemiconductive
coatingonthestatorbar)
SurfacedischargeduetoCoronaatoverhangofwindingresultingfrombarvibration
Aproblemcommontomachineswiththermoplasticinsulationisthatthenormalthermalcyclingiscausescoilmovementin
theslot,tendtogeneratecrackwithinthegroundwallinsulation.
Atapeseparationisaseparationoftapecoveringthewallinsulationofthecoilduetoaxialexpansionandcontractionof
theconductorsandtheopposingforcesoftheslotappliedtothewallinsulation.
Insomecasesonlythearmortapeisseparated,inothercasesthemicatapecomprisingthegroundwallinsulationisalso
affected,whenthisoccurafewlayermaybeaffectedandthewholetapewillmovecreating"aneck"inthecoil.
FollowingaretypicalinsulationfailureduetoPDactivitiesbasedonoursiterepairexperiencesonGeneratorsinINDONESIA.basedonour
experiencessince10yearsago,wefound2caseswindingbreakdownduetoundetectedPDactivitiesonstatorwindinggenerators,wedo
muchtorepairofsemiconductivecoatingandstressgradingtominimizeandpreventthePDonthewinding
A.PDInspection,

PDinspectiononAlstom87.5MVAafter18topbarscompletedremovedfromslot
Coronaprobemeasurements
Coronaprobetestingcanpinpointpartialdischargelocationineachslot.Itsupplementsonline/offlinepartialdischargetestsbyprecisely
locatingpartialdischargetoaparticularcoiloraspot.ThecoronaprobecanalsobeusedasatestingtooltomeasurelevelsofPDactivity.
Coronaprobetestingcanbeperformedeitherwiththerotorinoroutofthemachine

EndoscopicPDVisualinspectiononAlstom87.5MVA

PDVisualinspectionbyUVcameraon6.6KVMotors(figtakenfromOfil)
WindingInspection
FollowingaretypicalrootcauseofPDactivities

StatorwedgelooseonGEgenerator49,5MVA

WhenStatorwedgehasloose,followingpartsmayaffectedloosetoduetomovement.

FillerslipoutonMitsubishiGenerator125MVA.
Endwindingmovementduetostatorwedgesloose(notsufficienttokeepstatorcoilstayinplace)onGEGenerator237MVA

Loosesupportduetovibration

Typicalwindinginstallmentintheslot

Whenties,wedge,supporthasloose,statorbarswillmovementanddamaged.

HVCoil

Preventiveaction
WhenwedgewasfoundlooseandtheaccelerationofPDactivitiesInthewindinghasincreasewithcomparedtotheprevioustestorthePD
testhasoverorclosetothemaxthreshold,followinginspectionmustbedonetomadeadecisiontorepairorreplace.
1Checkthewedgetightness'foundloosemorethan30%mustbereplaced,concerntoreplacealsoforradialsprings,improvethe
materials
2Checkthecoilblocking,ties,foundloose,break,toodry,missing,mustberepaired
3Checkthewindingsupport,surgerings,boltsetc,foundloosemustberepairedorretight
4PDwasfoundhighonthewinding/
IfPDactivitiescausedbyloosecontactbetweencoilbarstoslotwalls,dorepairthesemiconductivebycoatingorsemicondpainting
IfPDactivitiescausedbylooseorstressgradingdeteriorationatendwindingportion,dorepairstressgradingbycoating

IfPDactivitiescausedbyinternalinsulationvoid,wecan'tdonothingexceptrewinding
Followingarerepairreferenceswhenwerepaironlargegeneratorupto250MVA(basedonourexperiences).
Replaceofstatorwedgeandradialspring

TakenfromIRISEngineering

Repairblockingcoil,ties,support,etciffoundloose,defect

Injectthesideripplebysemiconductivepainting

Suggestionsolutionforyourproblems
Followingmysuggestion
1. IdentifiedthePDsources,trytorepairofsemiconductivecoatingintheslot,beforetorepairallstatorwedges,ripple(topifany),
fillersmustberemovedfirst.
2. DoretestPDbyofflinemethod,andprovidewithbartobarscanningorbyprobetoidentifiedwhichcoilsarehavehighPDlevel
withvoltageUn/1.73(linevoltagetoground)
3. Inspectallwindingregion,insideslot,endwindingetc,useendoscopic(borescope)toinspectwindingintheslot
4. Dotestinsulationtangentdelta,withvoltagetestsameforoflinePDtest.
5. Replaceallstatorwedges,toprippleIfprovide)andflatfillers,iftheexistingarenotprovidebytopripple,andifthespaceis
possibleenoughtoaccommodateoftopspring,providethethespring,andimprovethematerialfromclassBtoclassF,NEMAG11is
recommended
6. Retightallwindingsupportandreplacethewindingtiesiffoundloose,missing,broken,etc
7. Repairtheendwindingregioniffoundstressgradingdefectorreinsulatetheendwindingiffounddelaminationontheseareaand
applieditbystressgradingpaintafterreinsulation.
8. Cleanupallwindingareas,
9. DryoutthestatorwindingbyusingDCsupply,keepthetemperatureround8090degreecelround24hrsormoreifmoistureis
stillpresence
10. Recoatingbyvarnishpainting
11. Whengeneratorrunning,ifequipmentavailable,dotestPDonline.
12. Recordallthetestresultasbasedline
GoodLuck
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parimalam

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator

ActiveContributor

02/17/200910:59AM

JoinDate:Feb2009
Posts:16

HitoAll,

#7
Inreplyto#5

ItissimplygreatandInevergetsuchvaluableinformationanywerebutinthisforumitisamazingandIverymuchthankfultoallof
you.Iamgoingthroughalltheinformationandsuggestionandwilltaketimeformetounderstandfully.inthemeantimeIwillreplyfew
answerstothequestionspostedhere.
thisplant2x12.5MW,13.8KVsteammachines(FSO)runningcontinuouslyforthepast10yearsandnowonealreadyfailedandalsothe
failuredamagedthecorelaminationsandendupwiththebigjob,rewindingandlaminationrepairsandthejobisongoingatpresent.My
questionhereisthereyanywaywecouldhavepreventedcoredamageduetocoilgrounding???intermsoffastswitchingprotection
relayetc..????
ThesemachinesnevercheckedforPDandnowonlyafterfailurewehavecheckedtherunningTAandfoundPDvalueisveryhigh(there
wasnoearlierreadingforcomparisson).presneltywearerunningthisTAonlywith10%stationload,duetofear.Myquestionhere,
runninglessloadwillhavelessPD???,eventhoughvoltageissame??curioustoknowsomesaynochangeinPDasthevoltageisthe
creteriaforPDIamthinkinginotherwaybyhavinglowload,Ireducethetemperatureandalsovibrationofcoilsomeextendreduced
canrunlongerperiodtocaterthestationloadtillwerepairanotherfailedTA.needadvice.
CananyonecansuggestonlindPDmetereconomicalmodelbrandforpurchaseinordertokeepitatsiteforfrequentmonitoring
restinnextpost.

Siswanto
Commentator

Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator
02/17/20098:35PM

#8
Inreplyto#7

Dearparimalam
Asyouknow,PDisassociatedwiththehighvoltagestatorconductorbars,PDwouldbestillproducedwhengeneratorisenergizeeven
noload,ofcourseyes,reducedloadwouldbereducedalsotheaccelerationofPD,becauseyouhavereducedalsothevibrationand
thermal.
JoinDate:Mar2008
Location:JAKARTA.
INDONESIA
Posts:73
GoodAnswers:15

Mysuggestion,whenyouscheduledtoshutdown,doinspectonyourwinding,
InspectthePDbyofflinemethod(probetestisrecommended,itsdesignedtocheckandidentifywhichcoilbarsarehavehighPD
level,soyoucanrepaired,inmyopinionthehighPDlevelinyourwindingiscausedbysemiconductivedeterioration).Youcanalso
checkthePDactivitybyusingendoscopic(borescope),checkthePDviaventholes(airduct)ofwinding
ProvidealsoTangentDeltatest,isusefultoanalysisofyourwinding
Statorwedgetightens,looseonthispartswillcreatebigproblemsonyourwinding,suchas:
oDeteriorationonsemiconductivelayer,duetothestatorbarcoilswillmovemententireslot
oLooseendwindingblockingandties,itscancreateendwindingdeteriorationoninsulation,electricfieldconcentrationonendofcore
canoccurringwhenstressgradingfailure,mayalsocancreatedelaminationonscarfjoin,scarfjoinisinsulationtapejoinbetween
overhangtoendwindingarea,thisistheweaknessinsulationjoin.
oWhenloosewedgeswasfound,itscanalsocreateinsulationvoidsacceleration,whenPDiscausedbythewindingvoids,youcan'tdo
anythingtorepair,exceptrewinding
Note:torepairsemiconductivelayer,usematerialsasbellow:
Entireslot,use:"coronapainting",i.e.VonRollIsolaproducttypeP8003orequivalent.
Endwinding,use:"coronapainting",i.e.vonrollisolaproduct,typeP8001orequivalent
Cleanfirstanddryoutbeforeappliedthesematerials
oWhenyoufoundstatorwedgesloose,replaceandimprovethematerials,providewithradialspringsifthespaceispossibleto
accommodateit,forwedgematerialyoucanimprovebyNEMAG11materialorequivalent,andforradialspringimprovetoclassF

RetightorreplacetheendwindingandblockingcoiltiesbyusingbendingtapeclassF,alsoreplaceifyoufoundlooseormissingof
blockingcoils,thefunctionofBlockingcoilsareusedtodeterminetheclearancebetweenthecoilsideattheendregion,toeliminate

mechanicalstressesarisingcoilmovement,thatwillberesultingcoiltouchingeachotherattheendwinding,Blockingcoilsarealmost
madefromsolidinsulationmaterials(suchastextolite,felt,etc)whichissoakedinresin.Blockingcoilisalwaysheldinplacewithties.
Oftensolidseparatortendtolooseafterlongperiodofoperation,inseverecasesitwillfallfromthewinding.

Inspectalltiesonthesurgeringsupport,ndwindingandsurgeringsaresecuredwithties,aswiththeblockingcoilsties,when
exposedoveralongtimeoperation,tiestendto"dry",becomelooseduetolosevolume,brittle,broken,etcretightorreplaceitby
usingbendingtypeandsoakedwithresin

Inspecttightensofsupportstructures,foundsludgeorgreasingorwhitepowderisindicateloose,retight.
Inspectthedustunderwindingclosetocore,extractitandcheckit,foundmetaldustonit,indicatestatorcoreloose,checkthecore
looseness,retighttheboltssupportbasedonmanufacturerspecification,foundbent,brokencoreteeth,repairitandappliedepoxy/
resinorRTVonitstopreventorminimizethecorevibration.
InspectthecorebyusingDigitalELCIDmethod,foundhotspot,repairedassoon,itsmustbedonewhenyouperformrewinding,
recordedtheresultasbasedline,doregularlyin5years.
Corerepairandtest,seethefollowinglink.
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/32530/HowtoRepairaPartialCoreStatorGenerator
PDInstruments.
Youcanbrowsingintheinternet,itsmanysuppliercanprovide,orourcolleaguesheremaycanhelpyoutoprovidethetechnical
specificationandsupplierfortheinstruments.
PDinstrumentforofflinetest,PDProbemaythecheapest,anditsusefultoquickidentifiedofPDlocation,
GoodLuck.
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#5"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/15/200912:24PM(score2)
Commentsratedtobe"almost"GoodAnswers:
Checkoutthesecommentsthatdon'tyethaveenoughvotestobe"official"goodanswersand,ifyouagreewiththem,ratethem!

#8"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/17/20098:35PM(score1)

Userswhopostedcomments:
CJMcGill(2)Instruform(1)myn1996(1)parimalam(2)Siswanto(2)

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