Penyakit Kardiovaskular Dari Sudut Pandang Al Quran Dan Al Hadits

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"Heart and Cardiovascular System in the Quran and Hadeeth" and Intellectual, Eth
ical and Moral Bankruptcy of the International Journal of Cardiology
Thursday, 11 February 2010 06:21 M. A. Khan E-mail Print PDF
A comprehensive rebuttal to claims about miraculous Islamic contributions to car
diology and medicine in the paper, The Heart and Cardiovascular System in the Qu
ran and Hadeeth, published in the reputed International Journal of Cardiology.
The reputed International Journal of Cardiology, belonging to the renowned Elsev
ier publishing group, published an article entitled, The Heart and Cardiovascula
r System in the Quran and Hadeeth, on August 25, 2009 on its online edition and
would soon appear in print.
The article discusses contributions of the Quran and hadeeths (i.e. Prophet Muha
mmad s deeds and sayings) in medicine, particularly in understanding the heart and
cardiovascular system. The crux of the article is: The Quran and the hadeeths m
ade monumental contributions toward modern understanding of medicine in general,
and of the cardiovascular system in particular, which the Western world willful
ly refuse to recognize, as can be gauged from concluding statement of the paper:
As new advances in technology and medicine continue to grow at an exponential ra
te today, there is time to reflect and appreciate the Islamic contribution to me
dicine. It is for this reason that the discoveries and medical revelations in Qu
r'an should not be ignored or forgotten.
In this article, I will address the gaping shortcomings of an otherwise reputed
medical science journal for its acceptance of a trash paper, and how that reflec
ts on the journal s editors and reviewers intellectual and moral integrity.
Journal s compromise on its publishing scope
The first ethical/intellectual compromise the journal made in accepting this art
icle is a compromise of the scope of its content. According to published aims an
d objectives, the journal publishes latest basic research and clinical papers , as
well as editorials, brief reports and review articles covering recent development
s . Therefore, publishing a review article containing ridiculous (see below) stateme
nts of an archaic seventh-century religious text, twisted inside out, to portray
them as the precursor of modern medical developments, is a glaring violation of
the journal s stated scope, aims and objectives.
Outrageous interpretations and twisting of facts
This paper has used many interpretations or drawn conclusions based on Quranic v
erses or hadeeths that completely out of place. I will take on section by sectio
n to expose the outrageous inaccuracies in the claims and assertions made in the
paper.
Cardiovascular System: First, the paper contains certain often-ridiculous statem
ents from the Quran and hadeeth, having no scientific truth as per modern unders
tanding of medicine, but the authors have twisted them to every extent possible
to make a link with modern understanding of medicine and cardiology. The most im
portant Quranic statement in the article is:
We created man We know what his soul whispers to him: We are closer to him than his
jugular vein
[Quran 50:16].
Then the authors say:

By noting the importance of the internal jugular vein and its connection with the
heart, the authors of the Qur'an were well aware of the vitality of blood and t
he heart to the maintenance of life. It was also known that blood circulation re
ached all parts of the body and is an important element to life.
This statement is completely out of place. This verse makes no mention of the hea
rt , or the vitality of blood , or that blood circulation reached all parts of the bod
y . It is out and out ridiculous that a peer-reviewed cutting-edge scientific jour
nal would accept such totally out-of-place conclusions.
The fact is that humankind has observed for thousands of years before Islam that
blood vessels are spread all over the human body, and this verse may mean that
Allah has similar integral presence within humans, so that no thoughts or whispe
rs in one s heart/mind/soul can escape Allah s notice.
That is exactly what renowned interpreter of the Quran say. Ibn Kahtir (14th cen
tury), the most respected interpreter of the Quran, explained it thus:
Allah the Exalted affirms His absolute dominance over mankind, being their Creat
or and the Knower of everything about them. Allah the Exalted has complete knowl
edge of all thoughts that cross the mind of man, be they good or evil (And We are
nearer to him than his jugular vein.) means, His angels are nearer to man than
his jugular vein.
In sum, this verse simply states that Allah has a more intimate presence in the
human body than the blood vessels, scattered in all parts of the body. This is s
imply a statement of a fact about the spread of blood vessels in the body that h
umankind has known for thousands of years before. There is nothing astoundingly
novel or miraculous in this seventh-century Quranic, and allegedly divine, state
ment?
Second, this paper outlines the second major Quranic reference concerning cardio
vascular system in the following passage:
Another great vessel mentioned in the Qur'an is the Al-Aatn or aorta: We would cer
tainly have seized his right hand and cut off his Al-Watn [20]. Al-Watn has been tr
anslated into different, yet similar words, including aorta [21], life-artery [20] a
nd [21], and simply artery [21]. This verse is taken to mean that if the Prophet M
ohammed was lying about the teachings of God, then God would have grabbed the Pr
ophet Mohammad's arm and cut a vital artery, certainly killing Mohammad. This ve
rse confirms that 1. Blood was indeed viewed as a vehicle for life and 2. The ar
tery directly leading from the heart is vital to survival. By analyzing the diff
erent translations and exegesis of Al-Watn, it can be safely assumed that it is t
he aorta that the author of the Qur'an is referring to in this verse.
It is obvious that authors of this paper are bent on, based on various translati
ons, concluding that Allah pointed to aorta by al-watin in this verse. What one mu
st take into consideration is that that division of blood vessels namely into arte
ry, vein and aorta etc. was unknown to any people at that time. And the Arabs, bei
ng least developed in the world, could never have any clue to such classificatio
n of blood vessels.
The question is: How could, then, their language have such a term, al-watin, whi
ch Muhammad or Allah used, to refer to aorta as claimed by the authors?
This means that al-watin probably meant to the then Arabs as nothing but a vital
blood vessel, not a specific vessel like

lators have rendered it into.
artery or
aorta , as deceptive modern trans
And, if al-watin truly meant such a special part of the circulatory system, it w
ould mean that the Arabs had knowledge of it before the birth of Islam and Muham
mad, and had already devised a special term, al-watin, to denote it, which Allah
used.
Neither way the author of the Quran made new contribution to cardiology through
this verse as the paper has concluded.
Heart: Next, the paper claims that the Quran portrays the heart as the central org
an in the body, as it says: The repetitive use of the concept of the heart illust
rates its centrality to the core of every individual.
The heart is, indeed, the most important organ. But none of the Quranic references
, which this paper has used as allegedly pointing to heart , means heart of the cardi
ovascular system. Let us see what the paper says:
Firstly, the importance of the heart is demonstrated in the fact that we find di
fferent states of the heart in the three groups of people that the Qur'an descri
bes; the mu'minun (Believers) have hearts that are alive, the kafirun (the rejec
ters of faith) have hearts that are dead, and the munafiqun (the hypocrites) hav
e hearts that are diseased
In general, religious scholars discuss two types of (spiritual) heart diseases:
shubahat which relate to one's level of understanding and trust, and shahawat wh
ich are desires of the self and become diseases when they grow out of proportion
. Emotions, attitudes, knowledge, diseases, desires, truthfulness, actions and i
ntentions are all rooted in the heart.
First thing, this classification does not refer to heart the human organ, but rath
er the mind , whose centre is in the brain . It is a gross error to claim that Emotions
, attitudes, knowledge, diseases, desires, truthfulness, actions and intentions
are all rooted in the heart . Except for diseases (predominantly related to immune s
ystem and infectious agents, not so much to heart ), all these human attributes are
rooted in the brain , not heart . It is ridiculous that a leading 21st-century cardio
logy journal would accept such trash.
Secondly, while this classification of the so-called heart is utterly ridiculous o
n one hand, it is extremely hateful on the other. It is utterly hateful, racist,
and grossly inaccurate on part of the International Journal of Cardiology (IJC)
to disseminate the hateful idea of Islam that hearts of the world s unbelievers (
i.e. non-Muslims), some 80% of the global population, are dead. The stupor of th
e editors and reviewers of the journal knows no bounds, given that, on the whole
, the world s non-Muslims are healthier than Muslims. One may go to hospitals in I
ndia, Malaysia or Singapore, and notice that, proportion-wise, Muslim patients m
uch outnumber the non-Muslim ones.
There are many such verses in the Quran, referring to heart , that are not only hat
eful of non-Muslims, but also demand violence against them for having a dead hear
ts . For example:
Allah sealed the hearts of the nonbelievers, and put veils on their eyes; there
is a great penalty for the nonbelievers. (Quran 2:7).
Muslims should muster all their power and might, including steeds of war (tanks,
planes, missiles etc.) to strike terror in the hearts of the unbelievers (Quran 8
:6).
One should take note that Muhammad put the unbelievers of Arabia to the sword, u
nless they would convert, because of this idea of Allah that they had dead hearts .
Moreover, Abdullah ibn Obayi a half-hearted Muslim and opponent of Muhammad, and
the Quran s hypocrite par excellence whose heart was diseased according to the Quran and
the editors and reviewers of IJC, was a great humanist. He, through forceful in
tervention, saved the lives of the innocent Banu Qainuqa tribesmen, whom Muhamma
d had attacked, defeated and was about to slaughter en masse [Ibn Ishaq, The Lif
e of Muhammad, Karachi, p. 363-64]. A year later, the Banu Nadir tribesmen were
also spared, and were exiled instead, when Abdullah sided with them (ibid, p.437
-39], while the Banu Qurayza tribesmen were slaughtered en masse two years later
, defying Abdullah s condemnation of it, when he had become politically weak [ibid
, p. 461-70].
It is shocking and unfortunate that a 21st-century science journal would act as
a vehicle for propagating Islam s unfettered hatred, nay barbarism, toward non-Mus
lims and good-hearted people, which has left a legacy of lasting horror to human
ity.
The paper further states:
Other malaise qualities contributing to a diseased heart includes blasphemy, reje
ction of truth, deviation, sin, corruption, aggressiveness, negligence, fear, an
ger, and jealousy, among others.
Here again, none of these attributes have a primary relation with the heart , but t
he brain . However, would IJC explain what constitutes blasphemy and sin etc., and
how they emanate from diseased hearts ?
History is the proof that it is the deviators (from norms), and the so-called si
nners and blasphemers, who, despite suffering persecution by the religious, have
been the wheel for change and progress. IJC should not condemn them, but apprec
iate.
The deceptive authors pass on above references to heart in the Quran as spiritual h
eart , although organically they related to the brain . Then the authors find mention
of heart as consisting of muscles in the following hadeeth:
Beware! There is a piece of flesh in the body if it remains healthy the whole bod
y becomes healthy, and if it is diseased, the whole body becomes diseased. Bewar
e, it is the heart [Bukhari, Book 2, Number 49].
Before I expose deception or stupidity of the authors in interpreting this hadee
th, let me first ask: Do the authors of this paper mean to say that when other o
rgans, say the brain, liver, lungs, or blood are diseased, the whole body does n
ot become diseased? IJC editors and reviewers should have known that disfunction
ality of any organ would affect the whole body.
Now let us see the deception of the authors by taking a look at the complete tex
t of the hadeeth (Sahih Bukhari, volume 1, Book 2, Number 49):
Narrated An-Nu'man bin Bashir: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'Both legal and il
legal things are evident but in between them there are doubtful (suspicious) thi
ngs and most of the people have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himsel
f from these suspicious things saves his religion and his honor. And whoever ind
ulges in these suspicious things is like a shepherd who grazes (his animals) nea
r the Hima (private pasture) of someone else and at any moment he is liable to g
et in it. (O people!) Beware! Every king has a Hima and the Hima of Allah on the
earth is His illegal (forbidden) things. Beware! There is a piece of flesh in t
he body if it becomes good (reformed) the whole body becomes good but if it gets
spoilt the whole body gets spoilt and that is the heart.
Would anybody tell me which organ this hadeeth is referring to by the phrase a pi
ece of flesh in the body ? The heart here again stands for minds/soul/spiritual hear
t, whose center is the brain ; it, in no way, refers to heart the organ. I m left to wo
nder how the editors and reviewers would miss this most obvious inaccuracy.
The authors further claims:
Furthermore, there is a prophetic tradition that discusses heart surgery, extrac
tion of a blood clot, and treatment of the heart as follows:
the Angel Gabriel came to Mohammad as a child while he was playing with playmates
, lay him prostrate on the ground and tore open his breast and took out the heart
from it and then extracted a blood-clot out of it and said, That was the part of
Satan in thee. And then he washed it with the water of Zam Zam in a golden basin
and then it was joined together and restored to its place. [Muslim 1:311].
Then they add: Thus, although rudimentary and perhaps even metaphorical, the surg
ery described required knowledge of the anatomical and physiological importance
of the heart to the healthy functioning of the body and the detrimental effects
of a thrombus.
One is left to wonder how heart-surgery is performed by extracting the heart fro
m one s body, and place it back to its place. If this is possible, it would be supe
r-advance , but the authors call it rudimentary .
Moreover, the authors must have the weirdest of mind to connect this ridiculous
hadeeth to heart surgery . First thing, how can a four-year-old child (as Muhammad
was at the time) have a life-threatening blood-clot in his heart?
Muhammad s first biographer Ibn Ishaq relates the story as thus:
two men in white ra
iment came to Muhammad and threw him down and opened up his belly and searched [
something] therein. [Ishaq, 71-72]. (I m sure the authors are unaware of this menti
on; else they would have claimed white raiment was actually apron , normally worn by
doctors.]
Let us now see how Allah relates the so-called miraculous event, on which He rev
ealed a complete chapter in the Quran (Chapter 94):
Have We not expanded for you your breast, And taken off from you your burden, Whi
ch pressed heavily upon your back, And exalted for you your esteem? Surely with
difficulty is ease. With difficulty is surely ease. So when you are free, nomina
te. And make your Lord your exclusive object.
One must wonder: Does a so-called life-threatening blood-clot (although Allah call
s it burden ) in a little child s heart press heavily upon his back? If at all, it wo
uld press upon his chest/breast, not on his back.
Traditionally, Islamic scholars have interpreted the event as consecration of Mu
hammad, i.e. removal of his sins, so as to make him sin-free, and therefore, sui
table for the mission of prophethood. If one looks closely at how Allah relates
the event, it means exactly that, not an open-heart surgery this paper twists it t
o mean. Yet, one would be baffled as to how four-year-old Muhammad could commit
sin? Was he the greatest sinner in history?
One, with a few stands of neurons left in his/her brain, would have rejected suc
h gross twisting of facts, but not the reviewers and editors of IJC.
Cardiovascular disease: The paper continues:
Although not outwardly mentioned in the Qur'an and Hadeeth, the lifestyle that t
he authors of the Qur'an encourage drastically decreases the chances of individu
als developing such cardiovascular diseases such as heart diseases, blood clots,
atherosclerosis and arteriosclerosis via the following ways: engaging in spirit
ual activities, moderate eating, physical labor, reducing anger and jealousy, el
iminating greediness, and abstention of forbidden foods and drinks.
While growing up as a Muslim, we are advised such things, and having seen and mi
xed with people of different culture, I have known that almost every culture rec
ommends moderate eating, physical activity, not sleeping or sitting down immedia
tely after eating etc. Even then, the authors claim that Islam s prohibition of ce
rtain foods and drinks is healthier is grossly untrue. Muslims are not the healt
hiest people in the world; instead, the opposite is frequently true. People eati
ng swine-meat, say in India, Malaysia or Singapore, are as healthy as Muslims, i
f not healthier. Similarly, alcohol-consuming non-Muslims are equally as healthy
as, if not healthier than, Muslims anywhere. Of course, excessive eating of mut
ton and beef is as much a health-hazard as eating excessive pork. Eating beef, M
uslims favourite meat, may cause mad cow disease? Why didn t Allah prohibit it?
Moreover, pig meat was prohibited amongst Jews for almost two millennia, and Muh
ammad copied their tradition. Any credit for it should go the Jews and Judaism,
not Islam.
Similarly, excessive consumption of alcohol could be health-hazard; drinking exc
essive water can also kill. Nonetheless, recent studies have shown that moderate
daily drinking of wine is beneficial for the heart, not harmful, as authors of
this paper erroneously suggest.
It s baffling that such grossly-mistaken statements in this paper could escape att
ention of the editors and reviewers.
The authors also try to portray the five-time daily prayers in Islam as a form o
f physical exercise to keep one s cardiovascular system healthy. In support, it ad
ds from the Quran (13:28): Truly it is in the remembrance of God that the hearts
find peace.
This verse is again not referring heart of the cardiovascular system, but the mind ,
whose center is in the brain . Still, Muslims, despite the daily exercise, are not
a healthier people in the world; the opposite is the reality.
Moreover, the daily five-time prayer ritual in Islam including its reverential pos
tures: standing with palms together, bowing down, kneeling, and sitting on the h
eels were practised by Christian monks of the region during Muhammad s time; Muhamma
d simply copied them [Walker Benjamin, Foundations of Islam, p. 62]. Therefore,
credit for any supposed physical and cardiovascular benefit of Islamic prayer ri
tuals, despite opposite being the fact, must go to its original Christian invent
ors, not to Muhammad, Allah or Islam.
The paper also mentions: It is said that Mohammad advised people not to go to sle
ep immediately after meals, for that would lead to a hardening of the heart .
Would the authors explain what they meant by hardening of the heart here? Lack of
enough exercise and sleeping immediately after meals, would likely make one s hear
t fattier, and more sagging, not harder. On the contrary, one, who does sufficie
nt exercise and avoid going to bed immediately after meals, would have less fat
in the heart, and more muscles, therefore, a more toned heart. Doesn t Muhammad s ab
ove statement contradict well-established medical facts?
The authors then claim:
Furthermore, Mohammad encouraged the consumption of foods such as white meat of f

ish that are low in fat and help decrease serum cholesterol levels. He also enco
uraged the consumption of whole-grain brain (sic) for higher fiber intake.
The authors provide no reference for these claims (because there is probably non
e), and the reviewers of the paper seem to have no necessity of it either. Wheth
er Muhammad made any recommendation for eating fish is doubtful (I haven t come ac
ross any), yet he left plentiful reference of lamb and camel meats in Islamic li
terature, which are not quite a healthy food-choice.
Contributions to medicine: While IJC is supposed to publish contents related to
cardiology, it had no problem with including content that fall outside its scope
, such as embryology. However, let us see the paper says about embryology:
The Qur'an and the Hadeeth provide detailed, accurate descriptions of the major
events that occur during embryological development. The terminology used by the
author of the Qur'an is characterized by descriptiveness, accuracy, ease of compre
hension, and integration between description of appearance and main internal pro
cesses and the timing of sexual development, fetal development and the acquisition
of a human appearance are also discussed.
Many critical authors have trashed the voodoo Islamic embryology as described in t
he Quran, which the editors and reviewers, it appears, have wilfully ignored. Th
e paper makes the case for Quranic embryology as thus:
Although many verses in the Qur'an and prophetic traditions discuss the developm
ent of the embryo, only two will be described below. It is remarkable to note th
at the descriptions presented in these 7th century texts closely resemble the va
rious stages of the embryo.
We [God] created man from a quintessence of clay. We then placed him as a nutfah
(drop) in a place of settlement, firmly fixed, then We made the drop into an alaq
ah (leech-like structure), and then We changed the alaqah into a mudhah (chewed-l
ike substance, somite stage), then We clothed the bones with lahm (muscles, fles
h), then We caused him to grow and come into being and attain the definitive (hu
man) form. So, blessed be God, the best to create .
When forty-two nights have passed over the conceptus, God sends an angel to it, w
ho shapes it (into human form), makes its hearing, sight, skin, muscles and bone
s
Above Quranic mention of stages of development of the embryo is grossly unscient
ific in modern understanding. However, humankind, through experiences such as mi
scarriages over thousands of years before Muhammad (Muhammad should have known m
ore about it given he maintained a harem of over a dozen wives and a number of s
ex-slaves), had made a rough understanding of how a human child gradually develo
ps in mother s womb. Above description reflect absolutely nothing more than that a
ge-old knowledge. Above reference also suggests that bones are created first, th
en muscle and flesh to cloth it, which is thoroughly inaccurate, contrary to fac
ts.
Interestingly, the deceptive or half-educated authors of the paper have left the
Quranic embryology incomplete. Let me complete it. The Quran says, humans are c
reated from the earth (11:61), from sounding clay (15:26,28,33), from clay (17:61, 32:
7), from wet earth / quintessence (of clay) (23:12), out of mire (38:71), from dust (3:
30:20, 35:51), from water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45), and, finally, from nothing (19:67,
52:35).
This is the miraculous accuracy, as authors of the paper claim, with which the Q
uran describes embryology. While the Quran s own description of embryology is utte
rly contradictory, it would be stupidity at its grossest to suggest, today, that

humans are created in mother s womb from clay , mud , dust , water or nothing .
Other mentions suggest human beings are created from a
g semen . But humanity had known for tens of thousands
t intercourse between man and woman, and the release of
al for procreations. Nothing was novel or miraculous in
drop of fluid or seed , meanin

of years before Muhammad tha
male semen, were essenti
these references.
Strikingly, what people still did not know is that procreation, more vitally, al
so need the egg from the mother, and the Quran or hadeeth make no mention of fem
ale contribution in procreation (except probably her role was a career of the pr
oduct of male seed / semen ). Allah, the Islamic God, it seems, knew no better than hum
ans of the time.
Conclusion: In concluding section of the paper, the authors write:
Shortly after the death of Mohammad, not only did his followers vastly expand th
e Islamic empire, but they also became scientific and medical innovators and edu
cators. The Islamic empire, for more than 1000 years, remained the most advanced
and civilized empire in the world, and the inspiration of all the scientific an
d medical discoveries and practices stemmed from the teachings of the Qur'an and
the Hadeeth, teachings that strongly encouraged and supported the drive to seek
knowledge and to make scientific achievements and discoveries.
For instance, a few centuries after the death of Mohammad, the medical education
that developed closely resembled what we have today. The curriculum consisted o
f training in the basic sciences, which included anatomy being taught by dissect
ing apes, skeletal studies, and didactics, and clinical training, where therapeu
tics, pathology, surgery, and orthopedics were taught.
First, it is a gross exaggeration on part of the authors to claim that a few cent
uries after the death of Mohammad, the medical education that developed closely
resembled what we have today .
Second, it is true that Islamic world led the world in science, technology and m
edicine for a number of centuries, but it never stemmed from the teachings of the
Qur'an and the Hadeeth, teachings that strongly encouraged and supported the dr
ive to seek knowledge and to make scientific achievements and discoveries , as cla
imed by the authors.
In fact, the Quran is, and the Prophet was, patently opposed to critical and rat
ional thinking and creative pursuits, which are the precursor of new knowledge a
nd innovation (Khan, M. A., Islamic Jihad, p. 177-82). Prophet Muhammad was illi
terate and the Islamic God glorified this quality of Muhammad (as do modern Musl
ims) (7:157) instead of encouraging him to learn how to read and write, which wo
uld have helped his pursuit for wisdom and knowledge.
Elsewhere, the Quran explicitly prohibit critical inquiry as thus: O ye who belie
ve! Ask not questions about things, which, if made plain to you, may cause you t
rouble Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost th
eir faith (5:101 02).
Prophet Muhammad also advised his followers against asking creative questions an
d to follow pliantly whatever Allah revealed: Allah s Apostle said, Satan comes to o
ne of you and says, Who created so-and-so? till he says, Who has created your Lord?
So, when he inspires such a question, one should seek refuge with Allah and give
up such thoughts [Buhkari 4:496; Muslim 1:242 43].
Indeed, the Quran in multiple verses (3:164, 6:38, 12:111) claims to be the depo
sitory of divinely-revealed knowledge that is all needed by humankind to live a
fulfilling life. Therefore, Muslims came very early to believe that, with the adv
ent of Islam, all previous system of thoughts were abrogated. The Quran was cons
idered to be the only true guide to humanity that promised success in this world
and the next. (Umaruddin M, Ethical Thoughts of Iman Ghazzali, p. 42]. Similarly
, said Dr Ali Issa Othman that the Quran is an end of knowledge for Muslims (quote
d by Waddy C, The Islamic Mind, p. 15).
Consistent with this Islamic prohibition to creative pursuits, and with adequacy
of the Quran for a fulfilling life on earth, Muhammad himself did not undertake
any initiative to promote science or creative learning during his rule in Medin
a, neither did the Rightly Guided Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali, 632-6
61). This is the period considered the true Golden Age of Islam by pious Muslims.
Instead, creative pursuits were invigorated after the Persianized Abbasids took
power in 750, some 120 years after Muhammad death. The captured power after deci
mating the Arab Umayyads (r. 661-750), and exterminating the pro-Arab factions a
nd pretenders to the caliphate, including the prophet s descendants through his da
ughter.
The question is: why the Islamic world quickly rose to leading position in scien
ce and creative pursuits?
Firstly, it is because barbarous Jihadi Islamic warriors had conquered half the
known world, including the world s crown civilizations, namely Persia, Egypt, the
Levant, and India. With Europe in backwater, thanks to Barbarian depredations an
d increasing puritanical hold of Christianity, it is none but the Islamic world,
that devoured the world s greatest treasures of intellectual acquisitions, could
be the world s leading civilization. It must be noted that the intellectual treasu
res and centers of classical Greece had been shifted, after Alexander s conquest,
to the East, mainly to Egypt and the Levant.
Secondly, the adoption of the Persian culture and civilization by the Abbasids,
which the generally Arab-centric orthodox always condemned, was crucial in the I
slamic world s rise in science, knowledge and innovations. When Muhammad was found
ing Islam and consolidating power in Arabia, neighboring Persia had become one o
f the world s leading center of intellectual pursuits. While we see no creative in
itiative being undertaken during the entire period of the Islamic Golden Age under
the stewardship of Muhammad and the four Rightly Guided caliphs (instead, Islam
ic conquerors destroyed many libraries in Egypt, Persia, Syria, India), the Pers
ian kings were sending envoys to far parts of the world to collect books and man
uscripts for their rendering into Persian. For example, decades before Islam s bir
th, Persian King Khosro I (531-79 CE) had turned the city of Jundhishpur, a grea
t center of Nestorian learning, into the most important intellectual center in t
he world. There assembled scholars and sages from Greece (kicked out from Athens
when Justinian closed the philosophical schools in 529 CE), Persian and Indian.
Khosro I sent his personal physician to India in search of medical books, which
were then translated into Persian, and many other Greek scientific works were a
lso translated.
Had the Arabs, who invented Islam, not been dislodged from power by the pro-Pers
ian Abbasids, the Islamic world would never have seen any excellence in science,
innovations and knowledge, as it didn t when the Arabs dominated for over a centu
ry.
Why this paper in IJC?
An individual of even mediocre understanding of modern science would be left baf
fled as to how the editors and reviewers of this cutting-edge journal could acce
pt such absolute rubbish!
One astonishing feature of this paper is

d accepted within five days on May 12. I
ience field, some of whom have published
ording to them, acceptance of a paper in
es at least three months.
that it was submitted on May 7, 2009 an

have known friends in the biomedical sc
even in Lancet, Science and Nature. Acc
reputed biomedical science journals tak
What then could be behind quick acceptance of this paper, as nonsensical as it i

s, in IJC?
Recently Elsevier has been reeling from the global recession, and is trying to s
ell off selected titles from its Reed Business US arm. Also Elsevier s CEO Ian Smi
th is leaving after just eight months in the position.
Amidst this financial turmoil of Elsevier, publishing this trash paper is risky,
as it would harm the journal s reputation and subscription.
The Arab world is awash with petro-dollar amidst sky-rocketing fuel prices over
the past decade. Could petro dollars have over-compensated the journal?
In sum, this paper is utterly rubbish, unfit for publication in any science jour
nal, let alone in a reputed high-impact journal like IJC. This paper tarnishes t
he journals reputation, and exposes the intellectual incapacity or dishonesty of
the authors, as well as of the editors and reviewers of journal.
Moreover, by publishing this paper, IJC has also acted as a vehicle for propagat
ing the unrestrained hatred and barbarism of Islam, which is nothing but a polit
ico-religious ideology of violence and terror.
In a trying time that we live in, this constitutes gross disservice not only to
reason and critical inquiry, but also to the welfare of humanity.
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0Publication
written by Rationalist , February 11, 2010
Quick acceptance means petro-dollarssmilies/grin.gif I never imagined Elsevier w
ould stoop down to such a level. Are we heading towards dark ages again?
0REASONS WHY MUSLIMS DESPERATELY WANT TO READ SCIENCE OUT THE QURAN
written by Clement- The Islam-Iwatch Pastor , February 11, 2010
Why should the Muslims bride themselves of reading science from their scriptures
a book meant for spiritual guide to paradise and not a science manual? The simp
ly truth is that the world has come to uncover the bogus claims of spirituality
of the Quran to be untrue and without a single proof that the Quran and its sole
prophet have divine origin, Islam is left with nothing objective to clique on b
ut to insist that some scientific gibberish utterance in the Quran are truly Sci
entific. Even if some of these things are found to be scientifically accurate do
es that pass Mohammed to be true prophet of God? since his life and characters i
s the antithesis of what is good and godly of a person claiming to be a conduit
for a divine message meant for all people. Can the scientific accuracy overshado
w the fruits of Islam we see all over the world which is manifested in Terrorism
s, oppressions, tyranny, stupidity, backwardness in Education, Science and Techn
ology ( which they are suppose to be the leaders since their Allah has informed
them before the infidels discovered it) Should we closed our eyes to these thing
s because there are some scientific accuracy in their scriptures?. Shouldn t we kn
ow falsehood by their fruits has thought by Jesus Christ whom they say is their
prophet too? Fatima, Nader, and Co please explain further.
07 WAYS ISLAM HAS FAILED TO PROVE ITS DIVINITY NOW APPEALING TO SCIENCE
1.You know Mohammed had tried to legitimise his cult as the only true religion o
f Abraham by alleging that he built the Kaaba and performed all the pre-Islamic
pagan rituals, now being Islamised, but we know this was a big lie because there
is no Biblical, historical, or archaeological proofs that Abraham ever visited
Saudi Arabia talk less of building a shrine for idolatry.
2.Mohammed claimed that he was a prophet in the order of the Jewish prophet sinc
e he descended from Ishmael the first son of Abraham through a housemaid but it
is a historical fact that Yahweh the God of the Jews never made covenant with Is
hmael but Isaac and his descendants and no prophet ever came outside Israel.
3.Mohammed claimed that Abraham and all the prophets including Jesus were all Mu
slim who performed all the Islamic rituals of ass ups and down fashion, but we a
ll know these to be false for no where in the Bible where there is any clue as t
o where Islam got it rituals obligations. Both the Jews Christians are commanded
to keep God s Commandments and not to do rituals ass ups and bowing down to a Bla
ckstone which is against the commandment of God.
4.Mohammed also claimed that he was the promised prophet of the Jews but he was
ignorant of the fact that the same prophet was also the Messiah which he agreed
that Jesus was, thereby making his claim of no effect besides he did not belong
to the brethren of the Jews. The proof of this can seen in the perpetual enmity
and hatred for the Jews which he instituted in his religion before he died broth
ers are not supposed to be enemies but friends.
5.To further justify his prophet-hood Mohammed claimed that the great Jewish pat
riarch was not Jew or Christian but the Bible called Abraham the Hebrew Gen 14:1
3 the tribe of which Jews are known for in all ages not Abraham the Arab.
6.His claimed that his Quran was a book written in the memorial tablet in heaven
and detected to him by Angel Gabriel cannot be proven as it lack context, chron
ology, intelligent transition, full of grammatical errors, contradicts science ,
history and common sense, without parables, proverbs and words of wisdom as exh
ibited in the earlier scriptures the Bible. Besides the Quran was never a book d
uring Mohammed s time but passed to generations as oral recitals and oral traditio
ns for years before being put together as a book. This cast doubt for the authen
ticity of the Quran as the word of God. Since is easy to corrupt oral traditions
than a written document as the Bible which was a written document fresh from th
e mouth of the Inspirer.
7. Finally, Mohammed could not perform miracle signs and wonders claiming that h
is miracle is the Quran recitals but this has been proven to be a fake document
comprising of un-canonised fables of the Jews and Christians, and plagiarised st
ories of the Bible and situations revelations that were meant to solve his immed
iate problems with his wives, his subjects and how to take possession of people
wealth, wives, weapons and power including his imaginary depiction of hell and h
eaven as carrot for recruiting his mercenaries for subjugation and tyrannical ru
le.
0...
written by Machmoed , February 11, 2010
Muhammad did not perform any miracle...true! I believe no one did and could, but
that's an other story.
0Good one.
written by Healer_999 , February 11, 2010
Hello Clement,
Good one by you. Probably finding it to defend its faith by spirituality, now Mu
slim apologists are talking about science. Really a good one. Nice humor.
It is me who advised you to be a pastor.
0medicine and infidelism=kafirism
written by medicine and infidelism=paganism , February 11, 2010
in nature based infidel religion like hindu etc,worship of some
tree and plants like enem,tulsi,basil,bilvapatra,amla,is considered
auspicious and healthful.
similarly doing some religious practice like surya namasar in front

of morning sun,etc is scientifically proven good,as it
improves physical strength,and also generates vitmanin-d.
finally the science of being vegetarian and eating in moderation
etc is also spiritual and also scientific.
0Scientific miracles ??
written by para , February 11, 2010
Muslims are well aware of their incompetency and little contribution to modern s
cience and technology.They love to curse the WEST and ISRAEL yet they know that
both have immensely contributed to science.They are also smart enough to realise
that since Muslim youths are more pre-occupied with Jihad and conspiracy theori
es - there is little chance of any muslim youth coming up with Scientific theori
es.Thus their only chance to save some FACE is to run back to the KORAN and Hadi
ths and hopefully cook up some mesh-mash of verses to save 1.6 billion muslims t
he embarrasment of looking the most unintelligent stupid people.
Interestingly it is also well known that even with the Koran - muslims just cram
it up without understanding what these lines mean.If the book is from GOD(as th
ey claim) atleast the idiots should spend some time to understand what is GOD sa
ying - rather than reading it like a parrot.Amusingly they have not been able to
correctly interpret the KORAN till now after 1400yrs and often accuse each othe
r of mis-interpreting the verses.Most cram it without knowing wat is in it and t
he rest are acussing each other of mis-interpretation.However magically all agre
e when "SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES" are talked about in KORAN - Talk about intellectual
honesty ??? Muslims havent you embarrassed yourself enough with this "Koranic Scientific miracle" jokery ? Or maybe there is no limit to this clownish behavi
our ....
0...
written by Ibn Kammuna , February 11, 2010
M. A.
Great work brother.
Have you sent a copy to the Journal? I think that is important.
I have a couple of articles published in top tier journals. The reviewing/editin
g part took about a year to a year plus.(Five days is really a joke)
thank you for this great response/
0To IK
written by MA Khan , February 11, 2010
Yes. I have sent a copy to the journal, although it's unlikely they will publish
it. Hope that they will read it at least.
0Refutation of 'The heart cardiovascular system
written by Manfred , February 11, 2010
I found this on faithfreedom.
Refutation of 'The heart and cardiovascular system in the Qur'an and Hadeeth'
Submitted by Syed Kamran Mirza on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:13
Dear Sir,
I hold a Ph.D. in biological science, and worked many years in the U.S. as resea
rcher on animals, and am quite familiar with the anatomy, physiology and patholo
gy of humans and most research animals.
Recently I came across an amazingly controversial paper, The heart and cardiovasc
ular system in the Qur'an and Hadeeth' (Marios Loukas, Yousuf Saad, R. Shane Tub
bs and Mohamadali M. Shojawhich), published in your reputed journal, Internation
al Journal of Cardiology. It is surprisingly that this fraudulently-crafted arti
cle was accepted for publication by the Editorial Board of your reputed, and cla
imed to be peer reviewed, journal.
Full story:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/islam/refutation-heart-and-cardiovascular-system-qur
an-and-hadeeth
0...
written by duh_swami , February 11, 2010
Even if every medical and scientific claims were true, Islam would still be Isla
m, and Islam would still behave as it behaves now...
Mohammad spit on the wounds of his warriors...He thought that Budaam well water
was just fine...He advocated drinking camel urine...One hadith has Mohammad visi
ting a woman who checked his head for headlice...He never once
advocated 'safe sex', because he knew nothing of germs and microbes...
If he had a doctorate in anything, he got it from a mail order catalog...
Looking to Islam for any kind of 'real science' is a joke...I'm sorry that the e
ditors of the International Journal of Cardiology, didn't get the humor...
0killing!!
I'm sorry that the editors of the International Journal of Cardiology, didn't ge
t the humor...
Your killing!!smilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gif
The editors had a visit the night before from Gibriel who told thim 'READ! READ!
READ GODD!&*-ed! +The article was already printed on the hearts. The next morni
ng Gibriel came again and ordered them to PUBLISH, PUBLISH the GDDM article! the
poor editors must have thought they were crazy.
0Simply Awesome!
written by Mumin Salih , February 11, 2010
Simply Awesome!
Let us see how the journal responds.
But the fact that a scientific journal accepts such a crap article is very depre
ssing; I never thought the westerners can bend so low!
Thanks MA Khan for being a beacon of enlightenment in an age when even a scientif
ic journal engaged in propagating myths and darkness.
0MA Khan- good job
written by Rationalist , February 11, 2010
Good job. I suggest you to send a copy to a leading magazine that can publish th
is and bring down the impact factor of Elsevier. I think it is impotant to publi
sh this in a magazine because many people who are not interested in religion may
not visit FFI or IW to know the truth. How about an interview on radio?
Why I am stressing on all this is because many students may believe in what is w
ritten in JOC knowing very well that Elsevier has a high impact factor. Therefor
e it is important to counter this by giving a wide publicity to this rebuttal.
0Hi, Healer_999 and Machmoed
Many thanks Healer_999 for those commendations and your last post on this Islami
c science voodo , I hope if the appeal to Science failed Muslims will see reason
s to dump the cult religion.
As for my friend Machmoed you know one thing I love him for is that we are unite
d in the Islam project. Even though he does not belief in the truth of the Chris
t s universal and everlasting gospel he does not believe in the bogus claim of Moh
ammed as a prophet of God either, in that we are united I love him because he is
in the ream of reasoning and humanity and not a potential terrorist, you know a
ll Muslims good or bad are potential terrorists.
For the miracle issue I will not bet my life for Mohammed even if he surpassed a
ll the Jewish Prophets in working of miracles. Miracles may be a test of divine
approval but not to be taken in Isolation of other evidences for example the Bib
le says prophetic office should be accepted on the ground of perfect predictions
and high moral standard of obedient to God s commandments of which Mohammed faile
d foe fully.
In Jesus time there were people like Machmoed who did not believe in the miracle
s he performed in their every eyes who said he did those miracles by the power o
f the prince of demons. So Jesus has to appeal to prophesies concerning himself
in the Old Testament, his holy life, his wisdom and the prophetic teachings to r
est his case. No true Christian that will denied the reality of miracle because
Christianity started with Miracle signs and wonders grew by miracle and currentl
y being sustained by miracle. The first miracle a Christian will experience is t
he miracle of conversion being born again, the transforming grace of God followe
d by Holy Ghost Baptism.
Presently Many Christian pastors, Apostles, prophets and Bishops preaching with
Power of God with signs and wonders following including my humble self. Those ar
e the things that distinguish true Christianity and other religious belief syste
m. The fact that you don t believe in miracles does not mean that it is not real;
it s only that you have not encounter one. When Thomas doubted the miraculous resu
rrection of Christ and he was confronted with the reality what did he do? He sur
rendered. One of these days you will encounter one, and you will surrender. Chee
rs
02 Clement
Hi Clement,
Thanks to you my friend. I believe God is personal and no one should get in betw
een. I believe whenever someone trully asks him for guidance, it will happen. I
always try to get my heart and conscius/brains in allignment. When thia is in al
lignment, you can feel it and then you know it is good. But when it is not like
a great deal of dogma's in islam, then you should know this is not God, because
i really believe God is also housed in humans and that's why Jesus said me and t
he father are the same and the father is greater than i am. According to me he m
ent that the source is much more but it is actually the same when you know the s
ource. I believe if Jesus existed he was no believer but a knower. He knew thing
s, not just believing. Don't ever think i'm against you or whatever. We all are
equal to the source...remember that...even muslims. The source opened our eyes a
nd we should help eachother, weather they are muslims or whatever.
0Islam is linked to Stupidity
written by The Great Buana , February 12, 2010
To understand the failure of the islamic "civilisation" we must realise how much
behind it really is. In Europe, for example, illiteracy was eliminated during t
he 19th century. In Germany, Bavaria and Saxony were the last regions were compu
lsory education was introduced in early 19th century. At this time, there had al
ready been bookstores everywhere with almost the same offerings like today: fict
ion, non-fiction, religious, secular including pulp and anything money can buy.
Boys were reading adventures and girls and housewifes were reading love stories.
While Formula Fiction and the like is definetely not the best kind of literatur
e, its existence provides evidence that almost all people can read. In contrast,
even today there are hardly any bookstores in the arab world and most arabs nev
er touch a book after they have left school in case they ever attended one. To u
nderstand the stupidity of muslim people we must only listen to their slogans, t
heir conspiracy theories and all their misunderstandings concerning others. It b
egins with the quran itsellf which is so full of errors and misunderstandings co
ncerning other religions. Therefore, Islam is very closely linked to stupidity b
ecause it means memorising instead of understanding and the total reliance on a
single book instead of all books. Islam means stupidity because it destroys the
peoples ability to think critically. To understand the desaster we must only con
sider the arab language which is still not capable to express our modern needs.
This is a level only comparable to some african tribal dialects. In fact, even t
oday it is difficicult if not impossible to learn and teach subjects like medici
ne in arab because it still lacks the capabilities. So much about islam and medi
cine!
0Paradoxical.
written by Andrew, X , February 13, 2010
Wel did MAKhan. Your article is wonderful deduction. What bugs me that why every
body, muslim or non, vehemently believe Hadis? Please tell me also how it convin
ces you? You labor so much to build an article basing unauthentic sources. I mea
n the Hadis. They consider it as divine. But if you tell them drink camel urine
they will not! Put some mushroom water in your eyes, they will not. What kind of
faith it is?
Hadis was 'invented' three hundred years after advent of Islam and after demise
of the messenger. All the record it presents is fake. Not reliable.
If your effort is not serious and if you are doing all this for fun, keep on doi
ng it. However we should care for the seriousness of this site. We should keep i
n mind the objectives of IW
0Tailor-made Quran
written by Reed Wilson. , February 13, 2010
Andrew,X. You are right. There is no place of Hadis in Islam. I establish this b
y the Quran 10:15. "But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who
rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a Quran other than
this, or make some amendments in this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord
, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disob
ey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day". Jews also had surr
ogates of Turah. The demand for something other than word of God or for making a
mendments in it to make it palatable and digestible was already there. Tailor ma
de divine instructions are needed by those who have no faith. We should not make
Hadis a support for our argument. We should advance logic not the myth.
0To Andrew on Hadith...
written by MA Khan , February 13, 2010
Andrew,
This article is on based mainly on hadith, but much more on the Quran. You seem
to have not read it before making your comment.
And it is not me using hadith to build my article, but the authors of the paper
used them to make their case. I have only refuted them in light of the same mate
rials, whether from the Quran or Hadith.
The Quran is also absurd like the hadith. And Muslims would not drink camel urin
e today, because modern health and heigene, and science etc., mostly developed b
y the infidels, have discredited such 7th-century remedy.
Moreover, you seem to have little knowledge of sciences and methodology used in
the compilation of the Quran and the hadith. There is general lack in rigorous m
ethodology is Islamic scholarship. And the compilation of the hadith is the only
work in Islam that may pass the intellectual rigor in its methodology even in t
he today's standard. The compilation of the Quran was based on one man's whim, n
ot of the hadith. If you care about scientific methodology, you will find that t
he hadith is more reliable than the Quran.
Please read this article to have an idea: The Quran and Hadith: Which is More Au
thentic?: http://www.islam-watch.org/ind...&Itemid=58
0Destroy your own myths...
Reed..."We should not make Hadis a support for our argument. We should advance l
ogic not the myth".
Since Al-Azhar places the hadith of Bukhari as second of importance right after
the Quran, you will have great difficulty advancing logic over myth...There are
lots of Muslims who would like to get out from under the yoke of hadis, but as l
ong as they are used, and accepted as 'high authority' by Muslim scholars and la
wmakers (sharia), hadis will continue...Islam is not known for its 'logic', nor
does it accept it coming from a kufr...and Mr Khan above is right...'you will fi
nd that the hadith is more reliable than the Quran'. Which is exactly what cause
s Muslims a headache...If you read Ahadith, you know toooo much...Allah does not
want average Muslims to know toooo much, he does not want kufr to know anything
.
When a Muslim knows toooo much about Islam, he apostates...Which is why all Musl
ims should read ahadith, and destroy their own myths...
0On Your Comments

Clement your seven point lengthy comment calls for a separate article. Then I wi
ll comment.
Machmoud: Miracles or signs were not performed by the messengers themselves. Bib
le says in Acts 2:22. "Men of Israel hear these words Jesus Nazareth, a man atte
sted by God, to you by miracles wonders and Clement: No, they would not bother f
or science or for Quran. They will praise Mohammad round the clock instead of pr
aising the Lord. Others are doing everything for them. They are cramming Quran n
ot understanding. Therefore Q is not to be blamed for their deeds. Your seven po
int lengthy signs which God did through him in your midst, as you also know". Qu
ran has clarified this. No sign was given to Mohammad.
K. Mirza should get another PhD in metaphysics.
Duh-swami has no other ammunition except Hadis. Enjoy them!
MAKhan. You did your job. God will reward you. Gt.Buena, you say Islam is stupid
ity and Mao says all the religions were intoxicants.
Andrew,X. How MAKhan can survive without Hadith? In Hadis he is breathing. He ha
s passed judgment that Hadis was more authentic. Follow Tantawi and MAKhan.
/
0Need of Hadith.
Hey Reed,
You have no basic knowledge of Islam, I can say that very much. For a Muslim to
follow his faith in detail, Koran is not sufficient, as it does not have written
context along with Verses, so Verses just become some scribble with out Hadith
and Sira.
Also remember Muslims also take guidance from life of Mohammad. They say he is t
he most important person in history. In essence the way he lived itself becomes
some kind of unwritten Koranic code.
Take this.
Right after death of Mohammad first two or three Caliphs ruled the way Mohammad
did, the reason they could because they were companions of Mohammad himself. So
they have that knowledge which guided them. For example all of them practiced st
oning for adultery, because Mohammad did it. Remember stoning was not in Koran.
But as the generations pass this kind of acquired knowledge gets lost, that is p
recisely they needed Hadiths and Sira. In early generations its likely that they
didn't need it because of time factor.
You will not make anything out of Koran, with out Hadiths and Sira.
You should definitely read Mr MA Khan's suggestion of article. It's not like the
y collected them arbitrarily, they traced their ancestry of commentators. They a
re not like folk lore, but it is close to.
0Reed...

Reed says...Duh-swami has no other ammunition except Hadis. Enjoy them!
Actually I do enjoy reading hadith, they are way more entertaining than the bori
ng Quran...
I have a good deal more ammo than that...You can test it anytime you feel brave
enough...but I don't think you want to go there...Your ideas about hadis do not
over rule the ideas of Al-Azhar...You are NOT the heirophant of superior knowled
ge and wisdom about Islam...I don't disagree with everything you say, but your d
isplay of ego ridden superiority is basically disgusting...
Reed...How MAKhan can survive without Hadith? In Hadis he is breathing. He has p
assed judgment that Hadis was more authentic. Follow Tantawi and MAKhan.
That is a childish remark...But typical of someone desperate to be right...
0...
written by Reed Wilson , February 14, 2010
duh swami. I do not accept your challenge. You are knowledgeable. It is good. Th
is site is not cockpit. I believe in friendship and friendly discussions. Don't
you see I enjoy them? For about a week I am an active visitor of this site and h
ave sincerely tried to contribute as much to simplify the issues discussed there
. Yes, I am desperate to be right. It is not childish. Even if it is, I am like
that. Are you not? My ideas can not overrule Al Azhar. So what? I am not answera
ble to them. I will not be taken before Azhar after my death. The trial would be
individual according to all faiths.
/
.
0To Reed Wilson: I am afraid my article may not be publish on this site for com
ment
This site is managed by Islamic Apostates who have become Atheist, Agnostics, hu
manist or free thinkers; for the sole purpose of exposing the evil nature of Isl
am. You know people know me here as a Christian and a Pastor for that matter, my
article may not be published here no matter how anti-Islamic it may sound; ther
e is this notion that I am proselytising here so I restrict myself to side comme
nts. You better say what you want to say, you may not find this article publishe
d.
0To Reed Wilso
I perceived you are a muslim because your pen smoke Islam. Perhaps you can answe
r this question that bothers me on islam.There two things he did that perplexed
me most:
1.After he had derided the pagans including his tribe the Quraysh calling them n
ames saying their forefathers are roasting in hell fire because they are polythe
ists after wards when he captured them by sward later approved all the pagan rit
uals of his fore fathers into his new religion.
2.After initially praised the Jews and Christians God and Islamised all the Jews
prophets in areas and after he plagiarised their scriptures to gain legitimacy
of his cult as a religion saying it was Abraham the great Jews patriarch who bui
lt the kaaba later turned against them calling them Infidels and that Allah is g
reater than Yahweh which became the terror verse (Alla hu akabar) He instituted
an never ending enmity with the Jews and Christian that they must be wiped out t
o the last. That time will come that stones will shout out that there is a Jew h
iding here come and kill him. What an irony.
Can somebody tell me the reasons behind such despicable acts?
0Reed...
Reed says...This site is not cockpit. I believe in friendship and friendly discu
ssions.
If that's the case, explain this:
Reed says...Duh-swami has no other ammunition except Hadis.
If you don't care to accept challenges, then don't make them...
Your disparaging of Sultan, Spencer, Kasem, Mr Khan, and other Islamic 'Scholars
'...is not friendly...and constitute an unfriendly challenge...as is your remark
that my only 'ammo' is hadis...I'm glad to see you are backing down on some of
your errors...That way I can spend less time explaining them to you...
Reed...My ideas can not overrule Al Azhar. So what? I am not answerable to them.
I will not be taken before Azhar after my death. The trial would be individual
according to all faiths.
This is a clear statement, that you have little understanding, but stick around,
you may acquire some...Don't forget that the Bible says...'In all your getting,
get understanding'...
0Clement
Clement...Can somebody tell me the reasons behind such despicable acts?
Psychosis...
0Context
Duh Swami you say"This is a clear statement, that you have little understanding,
but stick around, you may acquire some...Don't forget that the Bible says...'In
all your getting, get understanding'. Please give me the context. I want to rea
d it. I am sorry if I hurt you. By profusely quoting hadith and no other source
it appeared to me that you have no other ammo.
0duh_swami : Thanks for the answer
I also have Three theories in an attempt to explain the psychosis
Theory 1.
He had no vision for any monotheistic religion but to take over the custodianshi
p of kaaba because it was a money spinning ventures under the control of his unc
le who refused him a share in the business simply because his father died before
he was even born. If his uncle has treated him well he would not have slaughter
ed them and the take the kaaba by force.
Theory 2.
He actually was inspired by the monotheism of the Jews and Christians and wanted
to introduce the Jews and Christian God to his people by compelling the Jewish
and Christian to recognised him as a prophet too but they rejected him. Had they
accepted him perhaps Allah would not have emerged as a universal God but the Lo
rd of the Jews and Christian as he initially knew him since the Jews never calle
d the Personal name of their God(Yahweh) so he did not know His name.
Theory 2.
He was motivated by the myth of being born with a seal of a prophet at his back
a dream which he exploited to his advantage until he conquered his People to bec
ome their prophet, priest and Prince leaving their cultures and pagan rituals un
touched.
Which of these theories do you think best explain the behaviour of Mohammed and
his new religion of submission (Islam)?

0Mistaken identity?
Reed...By profusely quoting hadith and no other source it appeared to me that yo
u have no other ammo.
Please cite the posts where I 'profusely' quoted ahadith...
My opinion is that ahadith is a necessary evil needed to understand Islam, Moham
mad and various Islamic events...Without hadith, Mohammad is a phantom...Of cour
se there is the idea that Mohammad never really existed, and the entire body of
Islamic literature is fabricated...That has yet to be proven...For Salafists who
emulate Mohammad in 'every' respect, hadith is a requirement...Without ahadith,
Muslims would have no knowledge of Ad-Dajjal, who is not mentioned in the Quran
, but has numerous references in ahadith...
If not for ahadith, we would not know that Mohammad married Aisha when she was s
ix, nor would we know much about the founder of Islam at all.
If exposing the lies of Islam is a goal, the hadith is indispensable, which is w
hy some Muslims would like to toss it...Quran 3:032 says to obey Mohammad...Yusu
f Ali... Say: "Obey God and His Apostle": But if they turn back, God loveth not
those who reject Faith.
Without ahadith a Muslim would have to say...'Mohammad? Who's he?
0Holy moly...Clement...
He was motivated by the myth of being born with a seal of a prophet at his back.
..
Your number 1. Idea is shared by Craig Winn, in 'The Prophet Of Doom'...Prophet/
profit motivation...
'He actually was inspired by the monotheism...'
This may be the case, he was befriended in the cave on Mt Hira, and later by ...
Zayd b. Amr who composed the following poem:
Am I to worship one lord or a thousand?
If there are as many as you claim,
I renounce al-Lt and al- Uzz both of them
As any strong-minded person would.
I will not worship al- Uzz and her two daughters,
Nor will I visit the two idols of Ban Amr.
I will not worship Hubal though he was our lord
In the days when I had little sense
You will see the pious living in gardens,
While for the infidels hell fire is burning.
Shamed in life, when they die
Their breasts will contract in anguish
Beware of putting another beside God
For the upright way has become clear.
Can you see Mohammad in this poem? According to Kasem, some of Zayds words found
their way into the Quran...
#3...Mohammad was definitely a megalomaniac...he loved himself (selfishly), more
than anything, Allah included...He reminds me of Diocletian, the despotic Roman
Emperor...
On 24 February AD 303 another edict was issued. This time Diocletian ordered the
destruction of all churches and scriptures within the empire. More edicts follo
wed that year, ordering all Christian clergy to be thrown in prison, to be relea
sed only after having made sacrifice to the Roman gods.
In April AD 304 Diocletian issued his final religious edict. All Christians were
ordered to Roman gods. Anyone who would refuse would be executed....cont...
0...
Healer999 You say 'Right after death of Mohammad first two or three Caliphs rule
d the way Mohammad did, the reason they could because they were companions of Mo
hammad himself. So they have that knowledge which guided them. For example all o
f them practiced stoning for adultery, because Mohammad did it. Remember stoning
was not in Koran'. From where you find the witnesses? The punishment of adultry
is already prescribed in Quran which is not stoning. Stoning is there in Hadis.
Taliban practiced. They practice Hadith also.
0Clement ...cont...
According to the literature, Mohammad was afflicted by several illnesses or cond
itions...Migraine headaches...preceded by the clanging of bells, which is common
with migraine sufferers...A woman I know describes hers as someone banging a ha
mmer hard on metal...He also appears to have been an epileptic...he may have suf
fered brain damage from some unknown cause...Maybe drinking Budaam well water...
A brain damaged apostle, toxic from bad bacteria, can have all kinds of wild, de
lusional, and psychotic ideas...After a while he believed his own psychotic lies
...and got others to believe them...The religion(?) he founded is structured to
pass on the psychosis...It is my opinion that Islam creates psychotic episodes i
n submitters, which is Mohammads real legacy...Mohammad was the worlds first lun
ar-tick...
There's more of course, there's always more, but the above will do for a start..
.
0Reed...
They practice Hadith also.
No one can 'practice' hadith...Hadith is not a religion, a craft or even a hobby
...it is a record of Mohammads words and deeds and items related to him...
In terms of stoning, Umar said that the punishment of rajam was an 'obligation'
that 'Allah had revealed'...This hadith confirms Umar's statements about it...
"'Umar said, 'I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We
do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and c
onsequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed.
Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal
sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witness
es or pregnancy or confession.' Sufyan added, 'I have memorized this narration i
n this way.' 'Umar added, 'Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Raj
am, and so did we after him.'" -- Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816
Umar said this before there were any ahadith, so he was not 'practicing' hadith.
..
Umar is reporting that this punishment was from Allah, and Mohammad was followin
g Allah's rules...and so did he...None of them were 'practicing'...
And neither are the modern Islamic stoners...They don't practice hadith either,
but they do believe in the ideas stated there by Mohammad, Umar and others...
You can't 'practice' hadith any more than you can 'practice' Websters Dictionary
or World Book Encyclopedia...Maybe the sura about stoning was in the Quran page
s eaten by a camel or goat...
0Necessity of Hadith!

duh- swami has raised intelligent points in Mistaken Identity. I have to say tha
t:
Muhammad's existence is endorsed by Quran. Hadith Not needed.
The Message was not sent for Slafists.
Why should a muslim know Ad Dajjal?
Why a muslim MUST know the age of Aisha? Is it a requirement to know ages and na
mes of wives of messengers of God?
Where are the lies when there is no Hadith?
If Hadith was your requirement God is not obliged to fulfill it.
Quran NEVER said obey Muhammad. It is 'obey messenger'. And where is the messeng
er? The message is of course there. In the absence of the messenger and in the p
resence of the message the message has to be followed. Following and obeying are
two things. For following there is different word in Arabic and Quran.
0Reed...You're still beating a dead dog...
Why should a muslim know Ad Dajjal?
Do you know about Ad-Dajjal?...Why should a Muslim know anything about their rel
igion? Any kind of knowledge about Islam contaminates the submitter...They shoul
d never try to go beyond the confusing, unreliable Quran and learn anything abou
t Mohammad other than what the Quran says about him...of course they will have t
o radically change Islam and sharia law in order to replace knowledge with ignor
ance, but I know most Muslims are up to it...it took them numerous hundreds of y
ears to figure it all out...as soon as they find out they don't need to know any
thing, or much about Islam and Mohammad, they can relax, have a beer and watch f
ootball on the tv...
Reed...Where are the lies when there is no Hadith?...
If you have to ask that, you know less about Islam than I thought...
0The article
written by Kafirwala , February 16, 2010
Superb! MA Khan has done a wonderful job. But I don't think IJC people will admi
t their folly. At least it will make them understand that all readers will not t
ake their shit lying down. Even that is an achievement.
Regarding the on-going exercise on Quran by Reed, this fellow is a highly concei
ted person like his mentor and spiritual leader the 7th century Arabian desert p
irate Mohammed. He rejects all ahadith and tries to exonerate Mohammed of all ch
arges of pedophilia, robbing unwary caravans of their wealth and goods, mass mur
ders, sexual exploits and his various other unprophetlike activities and deeds.
This fool thinks that he can take everybody for a ride. It seems he will go only
by the divine commands(!) in Quran. Then how will he defend the various edicts
in the quran against the infidels? The prime duty of a muslim is to wage war aga
inst the infidels in Allah's way. In other words what the jihadis are carrying o
ut today. They will get great reward too- eternal stay in jannat in the company
of 72 big-breasted houries and 28 prepubescent boys with lot of wine to drink. T
he joke is Mohammed the thug was against homosexuality and alcohol and strictly
prohibited it for his followers. But in paradise it is available in plenty. Alla
h's paradise is really wonderful. For his defense of Mohammed and his Allah, thi
s clown Reed can hope for his rightful place in the paradise!
0Reed Wilson: Your questions are funny
Reed wrote-"Why should a muslim know Ad Dajjal?
-Why a muslim MUST know the age of Aisha? Is it a requirement to know ages -and
names of wives of messengers of God?
and many other thought provoking questions above what do you really imply here?
Are you saying that there would be no need to worry on the absurdities of the Qu
ran if the Hadiths had not told the lies? That Quran should be taken as the word
of Allah period. There is no need to know anything about the messenger, his lif
e, his family what he does for his living, how many wives he has? What he said t
hat came true, the places he mentioned in history that can be verified. Are you
saying that more knowledge of somebody who calls himself prophet of God was not
necessary? I see, perhaps this is the clue for the Islamic mind set. The capacit
y to enquire is destroyed completely. The first thing the Quran does in the life
of a Muslim is to destroy that part of the brain that deals with reasoning. Can
you see why 1.4billion people can take the testimony of one Person (Mohammed )
as yours truly? Without corroborating evidence, no any other witness. Yahweh (th
e God of the Jews) demanded that for any truth to be established there must not
be less than two eye witnesses. The Quran and Mohammed has no other witness to i
ts claim, like the Bible which has more than 40 witnesses to God divine inspirat
ion. Why should I believe somebody whose life style is the opposite of what is g
odly, and human simply because he calls himself a prophet of God. Can Reed Wilso
n tell us why he believes Mohammed was a prophet of God Almighty? And I will tel
l you why a Muslim should know about Ad Daijal (The Islamic AntiChrist)
0SIMILARITIES BETWEEN AD DAJJAL (ANTI-CHRIST) AS PROPHESIED IN THE BIBLE AND TH
E CHARACTER OF MOHAMMED
1.Conquer many nations and convert people by force Daniel 7:8,23,24,Moh pretende
d to preach peace in Mecca for 13 years without success but when he took up swar
d in Medina he conquer nations and his religion became a political religion up t
o this day no separation of religion and polities in all nations he conquered. N
o message other than believe in Allah (Islamic God) and Mohammed or loose your h
ead. No missionary spirit of persuasion and love and no regards for the souls of
men.
2.Hate, fight and will overcome the Jews Rev 12:13-17,Dan 7;21. Mohammed overcam
e the Jews of his time and instituted an everlasting enmity between his follower
s and Jews up to present days. The Jews must not be allowed to live or have a se
nse of nationhood for they a cursed nation. He even cursed them and the Christia
ns on his dying bed.
3.Regard not the desire of women Dan 11:37 Mohammed has no regards for women as
he was to the Jews. He hate the woman that gave birth to the man child (Christ)
symbolised as Israel. For salvation is of the Jews John 4:22 Christ the seed of
the woman was prophesied as the one that will destroy Satan. Gen 3:15 In the Boo
k of Revelation the woman who gave birth to the man child whom the Antichrist pu
rsued to the wilderness is the nation of Israel.
He said women are like domestics animals without intelligence, their witness is
half that of a man. The desire of a women is to have one man for her selves alon
e but he said Man can have up to 4 as wives if he can and can have as many concu
bines and slave women as he can but in heaven he will have up to 72 of them. He
can beat them if they misbehave in addition to denying them their conjugal right
s. They must cover themselves completely leaving only their eyes in the public b
ecause they are a source of temptation to men. There are more women in hell than
men for disobeying their men.
4.Change times and Laws of God Dan 7:25. Mohammed change the ten commandment of
God to five pillars. He changed Saturday the Sabbath of rest to Friday but not f
or rest but just for the afternoon ritual prayers. He change the Calendar which
began with the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross of Calvary for the atonement of
the sins and salvation of men( AD)with his migration to Medina when he took the
sward for the conquest and destruction of men.(AH)
5.Do as he will for a period Dan 11:36 Mohammed dishe out quranic verses to meet
his alter ago and desires. Especially when he wanted more women, commit incest,
paedophilia, steals and rubs the merchants caravans, kill or murder for booty n
ot to win souls of men for you cannot destroy the souls you want to win to God.
He also claim that those killings are ordered by Allah whom he said had predesti
ned everyone already whether to be in heaven or hell. Man has no control of wher
e he wants to be. What a religion?
0More Characteristics of Ad Dajjal

6.Control Money and Commerce and Government Rev 13:17 Mohammed coveted the famil
y business of his Curaish bribe in which they are the sole custodian and control
lers of the Kaaba, the shirine of polytheist that have developed in to commercia
l centre of trade. They control the feeding and watering of the pilgrims, the Id
olaters . when he conquered Mecca he made sure nothing temper with the business
up to this day except that he destroy all other idols worshipped in Kaaba except
the black stone which he wrapped in the garment of monotheism akin to that of t
he Jews and Christian but the economy and commerce generated by the pilgrimage r
emain untouched. Also left untouched are the pagan rituals that goes with the pi
lgrimages, like the salah the prostration prayers, the running between two hills
, the going round of the shrine, the animal sacrifice, the kissing of the black
stone, the devil stoning rituals.
7.Control the kings of the earth and make all nations fear him Rev 13:4,7 Mohamm
ed terrorised the world of his time and made people and nation to fear him by us
ing the force of arms. The same even to day is said of his followers. The nation
s of Islam bread more than 95% of the world terrorism even today. The most dread
ed polio-religious system of the world today is Islam. Imaging how the world tod
ay will be like if the world military power is in the hands of Islamic nations.
8.Kill the witnesses of the true God Rev 11:7-12 Mohammed killed those who Criti
cised him and those who witness for the True God of the Jews and Christ. Today n
o witnessing is allowed in Islamic environment where Mohammed is taught as the l
ast prophet. Even though he never claims to have ability to prophesy and where h
e attempted to predict the future he failed woefully yet is being worshipped as
a prophet.
9.He will claim to be the God of the Jews and sit in the Temple as God Mat 24:15
Mohammed was literary worship as God , his word are words of God . You can not
separate his word and that of God and live and even today you can not reject Moh
ammed and still live you must die.Q 4:89 You cannot call or believe in Allah wit
hout his name, only his sunnah are Allah s orders.
As Mohammed claimed to be the long awaited Messiah of the Jews when his Mentor t
he antichrist comes he will also claim to be the Messiah and God of the Jews.
10.He will not accept Christ as the Messiah and the saviour of the world 1John 4
:3-5,15-16 Mohammed deny that Jesus die and resurrected, the main proof of his m
essiah ship and that the Messiah is not the Son of God even though Christ is the
word of God and Spirit of God. Mohammed later claim that he was the expected me
ssiah of the Jews himself which the real Antichrist will claim during the great
tribulation.
0Clement...good write ups...
Mohammad was afraid of AD-Dajjal...Aisha reports that Mohammad prayed to Allah t
o relieve him of the afflictions of Dajjal...
For a while Mohammad thought that Dajjal was a local youth named Sayyed...One da
y Mohammad rode out with Umar and some men to confront Sayyed...Sayeed was disre
spectful and insulting...Umar offered to kill him, but Mohammad not sure of Sayy
ed said No, if he is Dajjal you can't overpower him, and if he's not, you kill h
im for nothing...Mohammad was not confident enough to start a real fight with Da
jjal...Another time he tried to sneak up on a dozing Sayyed who was mumbling in
his sleep...Mohammad wanted to listen in to hear anything that might be incrimin
ating...He was hiding behind a palm stump and was discovered by Sayyeds mother w
ho woke him up...These incidents are not only comical, they show Mohammads paran
oia about Dajjal, who he considered a real being...
0Popularity Hadith
written by James Hammond , February 17, 2010
duh-swami. You are saying as if you are an eye-witness. Why don't you quote 'As
Shih Al Bukhari' or 'Arabian Nights'? Had there been no Bukhari!! It is anybody'
s guess. You did not mention that when Umar offered to kill him, Mohammad said "
if he was ad dajjal, only Jesus son of Mary can kill him". Even Muhammad cannot
kill him. Since he was not ad dajjal, Jesus did not kill him.
The Mohammedans do not understand Koran. They memorize without comprehension. Th

ey do not even read Hadith. Some selected Hadith their Mullah tells them. That i
s all.
By portraying and criticising Koran and Hadith, this site is doing great service
of cleaning the misconcepts and highlighting the absurdities.
0To Swami,
Thanks for bringing the source. I forgot from where I read it and I was searchin
g for it in Ibn Kathir's tasfir.
It is interesting the way Muslims are behaving. If a Hadith says good things the
y will take it but when it shows up certain incidents they are false.
That website submission.org has its own logic and reasons. Interestingly they re
fer to
sahih Bukhari to make some claims, but then there is no fault there.
I guess this is what Islam teaches them right from the beginning:
What is good is that advances Islam
e new inventions I guess are a step
0...
written by duh_swami , February 17,
written by James Hammond , February
duh-swami. You are saying as if you
and What is evil is that hinders Islam. Thes

in that process of advancing.
2010
17, 2010
are an eye-witness.
I was relaying the story as it went...If you want to know what hadith it came fr
om...look it up...It's there, just as I stated...Bukhari and Muslim together men
tion Dajjal over 150 times...
0Ad Dajjal.
Clement, my friend if you insist that it was necessary to know about addajjal, t
he names and ages of the spouses of Messengers of God, I have nothing to say. Go
ahead to find. From where will you find it? Man has no authentic record on this
accord. Wait for the time machine.
Discuss Quran. Blow it to bits. For me knowing the family of the messenger is re
dundant.
If one claims to be messenger of God and you are not convinced, discard it. I am
none to prove that Mohammad was messenger of God. Don t tell me why a Muslim shou
ld know about addajjal. For me this man has no significance. Christians, Jews, H
indus, Buddhists etc are comfortable without knowing the names/ages of wives of
messengers of God. They can also do without Addajjal.
Do not rely on Hadith about ad dajjal. You will get to nowhere!
0Reed...
You are truly ignorant...And a Muslim to boot...A losing combination...
02 Reed Wilson
The reason why you need to know about the family life of your prophets so that w
ill not be deceived by a con artist, a charlatan or a false prophet. Correct lea
ders are supposed to lead by example. If he said marry only four did he marry on
ly four? If he said you must love your wives equally did he love equally? Why wa
s Aisha the favourite? Why should you follow somebody who said do as I say but d
on t do as I do? I he was truly a true messenger of God he too will obey the comma
ndments of God, and not bug you with meaningless prostrations rituals while at t
he same time banging his daughter in-law, under age girls, killing and assassina
ting his perceived enemies without any justification. Is this a prophet material
?
02 reed; fairytales are not for taking serious

Reed wrote: Miracles or signs were not performed by the messengers themselves. B
ible says in Acts 2:22. "Men of Israel hear these words Jesus Nazareth, a man at
tested by God, to you by miracles wonders.
Reed, you have to know that miracles do not exist except within the possibilitie
s of natural laws. If you really believe humans could perform miracles weather G
od helped them or not, that's called a dogma. All the scientists know this is im
possible because it is against the God (he manifestates in laws of nature) and t
hat's why no one claimed in our existence to have done some miracles without bei
ng thrown in a mental institution. Muhammad didn't perform miracles because he k
new it could not be done, he was an intelligent man otherwise he couldn't have m
anipulated this much and the followers saw only power and women when joining him
. Muslims actually believe that in the time of the farao they could perform mira
cles and that would be the reason moses performed miracles, but this is not for
taking seriously. Scholars/scientists found out that moses never was in Egypt to
begin with. If farao's had any power than it was the power of being powerless.
If they had any, they would have used it to cure all the diseases some kingfarao
's had like toetanch-amun. Never was there a person who performed miracles and h
ad eyewitnesses. No one ever!
0Hadis conflicts Quran
To: Machmoed.
Noted. I have no problem to accept that the so called miracles were according to
physical laws made by God alone. This is what the Bible says. Why there was no
miracle through Mohammad, Quran says that because miracle didn t work before. Desp
ite seeing the miraculous birth of Jesus the Jew religious leaders crucified him
. Hadis gives a long list of miracles performed by Mohammad despite clarificatio
n in Quran. Hadis is contrary to Quran. You say eye witness was necessary. I say
eye witness was necessary. Otherwise, it is up to your wisdom to believe it. Su
ch as, chlorophyll is necessary for photosynthesis in plants.
0Ignore Hadith.
To Clement. That is why I say IGNORE HADIS .
0Ahadith forever...Damn...
The reason hadith are important is because Muslims believe them...Sharia law is
partially based on ahadith...If you want to know why Muslims behave as they do,
a study of Ahadith is required, as well as the Quran...To try and fight Islam wi
thout knowledge of Ahadith is to fight Hulk Hogan with one arm tied behind your
back...
Some Muslims would like to deep six ahadith because it throws a bad light on the
perfect man and roll model Mohammad, who they worship, right along with Allah..
.In order to understand Islam, the hadith are required for any 'serious' researc
her...It may be that they are all fake, but that is besides the point, Muslims b
elieve them, and jihadists often quote them to justify their actions...
So you guys may rail against them, but your railing is futile...Hadith are 'not'
going to be abandoned...
0Reed The ultimate.
Reed,
Your behavior is very typical of Allah's message. Hadiths are not in conflict wi
th Koran. They are mere traditions and sayings of Mohammad. If any thing contrad
icts Koran, it is Koran itself.
Why don't you give your Allah Ist semister exam in Mathematics in the field of i
nheritance.
0To Reed Wilson: If you ignore the Hadith you not understand the Quran
You should as well throw away the Quran because it is the hadiths that gives it
the context and the chronology it needed. How will you know Mohammed the man you
believe was a prophet the man you placed your destiny in his hands without the
hadiths. It is the Quran that tells you the Mohammed in history It is left for y
ou to still take him as spiritual guide to paradise or not. To me that man was n
ot worhy of trusting my soul in his hands.I agree with you that we should ignore
the Hadiths and discard the quran as well because that book is not a product of
omnipotent, and omniscience God.
0PARADISE
In the above posts
duh-swami says:
Hadith was VERY IMPORTANT because Sharia laws are based on it, he can not follow
the role model of Muhammad without Hadith and that Hadith was not going to be a
bandoned.
Healer-999 says:
Hadith was VERY IMPORTANT because it does not contradict Quran, it is Quran itse
lf.
Clement- The Islam-Iwatch Pastor says:
Hadith was VERY IMPORTANT because Quran becomes useless without Hadith, to know
the messenger, who was not worthy of trusting and we should ignore Hadith and di
scard the Quran.
It is very interesting to note the concerns of all of them about Hadith, Quran,
Sharia law, knowing the messenger and following the messenger of God. When this
is the environment, we do not need the paradise elsewhere. CONGRATS.IW
0Reed The Playful.
Hello reed,
"Hadiths are not in conflict with Koran. They are mere traditions and sayings of
Mohammad". This is what I wrote.
You replied: "Healer-999 says:
Hadith was VERY IMPORTANT because it does not contradict Quran, it is Quran itse
lf."
English is not my natural language, so probably it is my mistake, right?
Hey you are fan of Koran. Me too because last time I checked a website there are
121 contradictions in it. Why don't you enlighten us with some verses from your
holy book. You want my favorite one or two:
005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger,
and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or c
rucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile f
rom the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is th
eirs in the Hereafter;
They did this to a very old woman.
0...
Reed...It is very interesting to note the concerns of all of them about Hadith,
Quran, Sharia law, knowing the messenger and following the messenger of God. Whe
n this is the environment, we do not need the paradise elsewhere. CONGRATS.IW
It's very interesting to note that I have not the slightest idea of what that in
coherent statement means...I think you are losing it Reed...That's what happens
when you try to beat a dead dog to death...Numerous posters have tried to enligh
ten you to your errors, but you remain steadfast in them...
Your gray matter must be getting tired...Why don't you give it a rest...
Healer...5:33 is one of my favorites also...I must confess, it is me who is spre
ading mischief in the land, but I don't think I will turn myself in...I might be
'duh' but I'm not that duh...
0Reed what are you smoking?
written by Kohi , February 18, 2010
Reed you got to be smoking funny stuff to be talking such STUPID sh*T really sto
p the drugs and read that qeeran of yours straight it scar ya? that why you shov
el the crap you shovel?
0Quran.5:33
Hello Healer 999. Your English is excellent. How can I ENLIGHTEN you when you do
n t give me the verses?
In the quoted verse, Allah/Messenger is the message or the constitution from All
ah. By waging the war it means breaking the constitution of God or mutiny. There
are three options in punishment i.e. either execution or crucifixion, or cuttin
g off the limbs diagonally opposite or exile. The Judge shall decide which punis
hment, viewing the gravity of the crime, on case to case basis. Exile seems to b
e lenient view.
This is the severest (most severe) punishment, as one may observe, in Quran. Bre
aking the divine constitution leads to anarchy which was very unpleasant accordi
ng to God. In man made legislations also, we find severe punishments for breakin
g constitution.
In other scriptures we find severe punishments for heinous crimes. For example:
Death for blaspheming the name of the Lord (Leviticus 24:16).
Stoning to death for adultery (Deuteronomy 22:23-24).
Stoning to death for disobedience to the laws of the Lord (Deuteronomy 17:2-5).
Death for worshipping other Gods (Deuteronomy 13:6-10).
Stoning to death to disobedient childrwn (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).
Stoning to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath day. (Numbers 15:32-36)
I could not pick "They did this to a very old woman" from your post
Duhswami, I will not mind loosing. You also don t get tired.
0Very Important.
written by Andrew,X , February 19, 2010
Swami, Healer and Clement. You don t get run out of the praises of Hadith and thin
k that it is important for Sharia laws; it makes Quran meaningful and is necessa
ry for following/obeying Muhammad. I am giving below two Hadiths from Bukhari.
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:Narrated 'Amr bin maimunsmilies/cheesy.gifuring th
e pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of m
onkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual interc
ourse. I too, stoned it along with them.
Volume 2, Book 13, Number 60: Narrated Sahl bin Sad:There was a woman amongst us
who had a farm and she used to sow Silq (a kind of vegetable) on the edges of s
treams in her farm. On Fridays she used to pull out the Silq from its roots and
put the roots in a utensil. Then she would put a handful of powdered barley over
it and cook it. The roots of the Silq were a substitute for meat. After finishi
ng the Jumua prayer we used to greet her and she would give us that food which w
e would eat with our hands, and because of that meal, we used to look forward to
Friday.
Now, please tell me how the above Hadiths are fulfilling your mentioned purposes
.
Can you give me the exact number of Hadiths? I swear, nobody knows. These Hadith
s do nothing but certify the stupidy of their believers.
0To Reed and Andrew X
I think you should know by now that quoting the Bible in defence of the indefens
ible Quran does not help your case. Not until you prove to us that Allah and Yah
weh are the same God. I have posted here time without number to prove that the t
wo deity are not the same.
One has a house in Kaaba Saudi Arabia the other has none on earth except the cit
y of his covenant which is Jerusalem and not Mecca. Allah has three daughters Al
-lat Alla uzza, and Menat, The other has a only A Son name Yahshua (Jesus), the
Messiah the Saviour of the world. One made man for hell fire or for heaven the o
ther made man in his own image and wants man to spend his eternity with him. One
is worshipped by prostration facing his shrine the other is worshipped by keepi
ng his commandment and singing praises unto him. one does not require blood for
atonement for sin, the other requires it for without the shedding of blood there
is no remission of sin. One hate unbelievers and wants all of them killed by hi
s jihadists the other loves all men regardless of their sins and unbelief. One m
ade women stupid and sex with them makes one unclean for prayers, the other made
women in his image sex in the institution of marriage is good thing it can not
hinder Prayer. One has five pillars to be observed to go to heaven, the other ha
s only three- 1.Love God 2.Love man 3. Have faith in Christ atoning Sacrifice.
One promised 72 virgins and rivers of wines in heaven other the other says no ma
rriage in heaven but fellowship with the creator for ever. One s message is preach
ed by terror, and by force without choice or questioning, the other by persuasio
n and by choice and reasoning. I can go on an on there are so many differences t
hat put the two deity far apart from each other. So defend your Allah without qu
oting Yahweh in the Bible. Ok? And if you want to Challenge Yahweh we can handle
that separately but let face Allah for now.
0Andrew, get it cleared.
Muslims will argue according to the situation i.e if Hadiths show Mohammad and I
slam in good light they will quote from them, if Hadiths put Islam and Mohammad
in bad light they will not recognize them. There is no universal position, then
hardly there is any thing universal in Islam.
Why do we need Hadiths and Sira? To answer this we should ask why do we need Kor
an or to read Koran? Because Koran has basic guidelines for ethics and morality.
Whet Muslims claim ' Islam is a way of life' it is important that Koran is read
and understood. If you start reading it blindly you won't make thing out of it,
because Koranic Suras are ordered according to their size (no of verses in each
sura). But to understand better we need Chronological order of Suras i.e Suras
ordered according to time. First revealed comes first. For this we need to know
the context of verses and suras in which they were revealed.
Why do we need chronological order? Because Koran has many verses which contradi
ct each other. So to resolve this Koran has its own rule, abrogation. If two ver
ses contradict each other, later verse replaces the previous one. Lets take one
example, prohibition of alcohol and gambling.
002.219
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin
, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask th
ee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah
Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider004.043
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye
can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity .....
005.090
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, an
d (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such
(abomination), that ye may prosper.
All above verses tell different things about alcohol. To come to know about fina
l stand we need chronological order of Suras 2, 4 and 5. Sura 5 is the last one
according to the time order, so verse 5.090 abrogates other two. This is precise
ly many Muslim countries prohibit alcohol and gambling.
You need Hadiths and sira to resolve these contradictions, which means you need
chronological order of Suras ( you need sequence of suras in time order). By pro
viding context Hadiths help in resolving contradictions.
Yes many Hadiths have been written, but there are about 6 which are accepted by
all most all Islamic schools or Scholars. I know only two names , sahih Bukhari
and sahih Muslim. These two are universally respected and agreed for their authe
nticity. Similarly Sira by Ibn Ishaq. Only ignorant Reed can doubt Ibn Ishaq.
Why don't you read an article on Hadiths before questioning them or putting your
thoughts here.
0Names of God
Clemment, you write "I think you should know by now that quoting the Bible in de
fense of the indefensible Quran does not help your case. Not until you prove to
us that Allah and Yahweh are the same God. I have posted here time without numbe
r to prove that the two deity are not the same". Pls. realize you are calling fo
r a lengthy reply. It will be lot easier if you spell out the attributes of Yahw
eh adhered to this divine name. You can match them with the attributes of Allah.
I can also do that if you like. I hope you will agree that if the respective at
tributes i.e. qualities/properties match, they are same. Do you mean Jehovah by
Yahweh?
We can call the Lord with any befitting name.
0Andrew X...
Ahadith do not contain 100% useful information...There is a lot of useless stuff
, but it's all pertinent to 'understanding Islam'...It would seem that some Musl
ims don't seem to care about about understanding Islam, which is probably why so
many 'misunderstand' it. How can anyone be a pious Muslim without knowing anyth
ing about Islam except the confusing Quran?...If someone thinks the ahadith are
useless, then how about the Quran? Does Quran 3:1 'alif lam Mim' have any use? C
an anyone even say what it means?...
Lets just throw out all Islamic literature and start over...You don't need any o
f that confusing, useless, literature to worship and pray to one god...
And what do you need Mohammad for? Does he send you a pay check? I thought not,
throw his useless butt out with the trash also...
0To Reed Wilson: Lets play the Divine Attributes game
Reed wrote "It will be lot easier if you spell out the attributes of Yahweh adhe
red to this divine name" It appears you did not approve the model I used in comp
aring Allah with Yahweh and I hope you are not calling for comparism with those
99 attributes of your Allah. There are a few of Allah's attributes that appear l
ike those of Satan e.g "The deceiver" "The Destroyer" I think we should restrict
ourselves to this three divine attributes in testing the Divinity of Allah. The
se are: Omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience of Allah. Can you give instanc
es in the Quran that Allah demonstrated not just saying them but demonstrating t
hese three attributes in dealing with the polytheist and infidels in the course
of his revelation through Mohammed as Yahweh did during the time of his revelati
on of Judeo-Christian scriptures? That will be the basis of comparing Allah with
Yahweh. Just give one example for each of the three divine attributes and it wi
ll be ok with me. I am waiting.
0...
written by adnagam , February 19, 2010
as with the people, so with the priest...both illiterate. smilies/grin.gif
02 adnagam
as with the people, so with the priest...both illiterate.
Like Mohammad the prophet....and stlll you are follower? smilies/grin.gif
0Clarification of Andrew
written by Andrew,x , February 20, 2010
Healer999. I have been posting that Hadith and Sira came long after Muhammad. Hu
man factor is prominent. As I understand, each sura in Quran is independent chap
ter. No need of chronological order. Such as Sura 112: Say: He is Allah, the One
and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; a
nd there is none like Him. If later verse replaces the earlier entire book stand
s deleted and you and I were not discussing it.
You have quoted 2:219 which says there were more demerits in wine and gambling t
han merits. Verse 4:43 says one should pray when he is sober and 5:90 says intox
icants and gambling were bad. In all the verses there is suggestion and not forb
idding. It is a misunderstanding that these 'verses tell different things about
alcohol'. Quran discourages wine and gambling. What Muslim countries do is their
own legislation.
0ancient multi-interpretational texts are very obsolete
written by Demsci , February 20, 2010
We know that Muslims can unite, can feel themselves part of the Ummah, a worldwi
de brotherhood of Muslims, loyalty to which trumps all other possible loyalties.
And we know a few basics of Islam, like the Shahada, with the hugely important r
ole of Mohammed, who is considered the ideal rolemodel, and the 5 pillars of Isl
am. We know the extent of the Islamic holy scriptures, which are basically Quran
and Hadith.
But from there the vagueness, ambiguity, countless different interpretations beg
in. At the same time all thinking Muslims, absolutely refuse to change, develop,
augment (with new, good ideas) their guiding texts. The most some will do is di
scard a part of it. But improve develop, augment it, nooooo.
Like this interpreting ancient texts as being scientific, all Muslims can do is
interpret or select ancient texts, embellish what they already have into the bes
t, nicest they can interpret, bend it. All because they prefer Revelation over R
eason when the 2 are in disagreement.
Their religious goal is to follow divine rules and the interpretation of them by
their religious leaders, more than to be happy, loving all humans prosperous, b
uilding the best possible society. I mean, they do follow these other goals too,
but they is still subservient to following their religion, when it contradicts
these other goals.
And they accept it that they follow a God who if in existence as they think he i
s, only holds them accountable after death, whilst for almost 1400 years not giv
ing any further guidance and clarification. Whilst it should by now be absolutel
y clear that his last guidance brought no substantial improvement to mankinds ha
ppiness, and did not, upon implementation, create the best possible societies, a
t least not in the last few centuries.
So yes, why do Muslims cling to this obsolete message and messenger? My guess is
: they are still betting Pascal's Wager, are mindlessly following their loved on
es and leaders or are stupidly considering it part of their culture and people,
regardless of whether it is the truth or not.
0Demsci,Why are they following?
They are following same age old Religion, because of us, infidels. Our own attit
udes help their cause so why should they change. For them to start thinking abou
t change, a cataclysmic response is needed. I thought minaret ban in Swiss might
provide an opportunity for more of that kind, but proved false. Thanks to our m
edia.
It was a wasted opportunity, the way some Islamic countries reacted like Iran, t
o highlight the inherent bigotry present in Islam. Again thanks to our media and
politicians.
Some politicians and media are bounded by abundance of political correctness. Wh
ile in some places they were dictated by ballot maths(Read India). Then of cours
e we have left liberals who never learn any thing from history. They feel insult
ed that communism collapsed before liberalism and capitalism, so Islam is a way
to take revenge on these societies. Even the fact that Khoemeni executed all the
Communists in Iran does't open their eyes to the fact that Islam hates, more th
an any other religion, Godless left and Godless communism.
So they have many things going their way, at least for now.
0Andrew, get it cleared. Part 2.
After the verse 5:90 was reveled Mohammad banned consumption of alcohol. The tro
uble is you do not know the position of Mohammad in Islam or even in Koran. You
intend to hide behind self created assumptions.
You do not even know the basics of Koran, so, to ask you to think rationally abo
ut certain things is futile.
You quoted suras are independent. What do you mean by it? There are no contradic
tions in Koran? Many issues like marriage, matters regarding women, booty from w
ar, position on slavery and many like these do not come in one sura, but in numb
er of Suras. Obviously it looks like you never read Koran.
For thirteen hundred years Islamic was practiced and studied using the rule of a
brogation and chronological order and context behind those revealed verses. Now
suddenly you intend to say some thing else, like 5:90 is a advice. I guess all t
he time Allah was advising Mohammad, then.
You know I can only respond if you show little rationalism. Before I go I will a
sk you to look at these two verses.
109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that f
orbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge t
he religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they p
ay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
How do you look at these two? For get about context. What is your first impressi
on? All Muslims will say that 9:29 was there because Mohammad was defending and
it is explicitly for defensive. Any violence in a verse, this is the standard tr
ite from Muslims. But does 9:29 look like he was defending?
Now look at 109:006. The difference is he was immensely week in Mecca, so he has
to produce this kind or else he and his followers get kicked. But in Medina wit
h time he became very powerful, so he produced this kind to kick others. Hope yo
u will understand that Koran with out hadiths is incomprehensible.
0No more Clarification
written by Andrew,W. , February 21, 2010
Healer-999. I am sorry I cannot make clearer. You know Muhammad banned alcohol.
I dont know if mohammad banned alcohol. I am ignorant of your sourrces. Yes Sura
s are chapters and chapters are always independent. If I dont know basics of Kur
an, you please tell me the basics of kuran. I will be grateful.
0Andrew...You know now...
Andrew...You know Muhammad banned alcohol. I dont know if mohammad banned alcoho
l.
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 449:Bukhari
Narrated 'Aisha:
When the verses of Surat "Al-Baqara"' about the usury Riba were revealed, the Pr
ophet went to the mosque and recited them in front of the people and then banned
the trade of alcohol.
Not only that but he ordered drunkards to be beat up...
Volume 3, Book 38, Number 509:
Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:
When An-Nuaman or his son was brought in a state of drunkenness, Allah's Apostle
ordered all those who were present in the house to beat him. I was one of those
who beat him. We beat him with shoes and palm-leaf stalks.
0To Andrew X or w,
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
'Umar stood up on the pulpit and said, "Now then, prohibition of alcoholic drink
s have been revealed, and these drinks are prepared from five things, i.e.. grap
es, dates, honey, wheat or barley And an alcoholic drink is that, that disturbs
the mind
Narrated Anas:
"Alcoholic drinks were prohibited at the time we could rarely find wine made fro
m grapes in Medina, for most of our liquors were made from unripe and ripe dates
.
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
"Alcoholic drinks were prohibited (by Allah) when there was nothing of it (speci
al kind of wine) in Medina.
Volume 7, Book 69, Number 492a:

Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle was asked about Al-Bit a liquor prepared from honey which the Ye
menites used to drink. Allah's Apostle said, "All drinks that intoxicate are unl
awful (to drink)."
Volume 7, Book 69, Number 492a:
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle was asked about Al-Bit a liquor prepared from honey which the Ye
menites used to drink. Allah's Apostle said, "All drinks that intoxicate are unl
awful (to drink)."
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
'Umar delivered a sermon on the pulpit of Allah's Apostle, saying, "Alcoholic dr
inks were prohibited by Divine Order, and these drinks used to be prepared from
five things, i.e., grapes, dates, wheat, barley and honey. Alcoholic drink is th
at, that disturbs the mind." 'Umar added, "I wish Allah's Apostle had not left u
s before he had given us definite verdicts concerning three matters, i.e., how m
uch a grandfather may inherit (of his grandson), the inheritance of Al-Kalala (t
he deceased person among whose heirs there is no father or son), and various typ
es of Riba(1 ) (usury) ."
0To Andrewx or w.
005:090
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divin
ing arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that
ye may succeed.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to)
stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's wo
rk; shun it therefore that you may be successful.
This verse is not a advice, it is a clear order or direction from Allah.
0Religion and Science
written by skipper , February 22, 2010
I find it laughable that so-called religious "scholars" are trying to find scien
ce in religious books. Don't they know that religion and science are mutually ex
clusive? Science is founded on reason, whereas religion is anything but. Religio
n enters when reason has left.
0Forgot.
All the quotes mentioned above were taken from Sahih Bukhari.
0...
The qor'aan should be devided in sahih Qor'aani and tha'ief (weak) qor' aani. Me
ccan= sahih and medinian=tha'ief. In meccan sura's God is ok. But in medinian he
becomes very human. He gets angry, he changes his revelation that he had sent b
efore. He sure lost it at the end...or was it just an arab who thought he was ap
rophet after his wife gadija had convinced him of not being posessed by a demon.
....sure! If Allah is watching, he laughs right now about the stupidity that ara
bs have wrote some nonsense and then say it is God who told us this. He's laughi
ng a great deal and the muslims are wining and live their miserable lives (exept
the rich ones), because they believe it's Allah's will . How many women do you
want to scream for freedom and these women hate islam because muslims tell these
women it's God's will....sure it is! Did you see iranian (older) women cry abou
t this and try to get rid of the bullshit of niqaab or the headcovering?
I will do my best to show everybody the lies in islam and it is a thankfull job.
Every muslim who converts to democracy totally and leave islam as a system reve
aled by Allah/God, it gives me great satisfaction and something to feel good abo
ut. Islam as it is written is false/lie/hoax...simple fact! Get over it, will yo
u!
0Machmoed I agree with you but..
written by Clement- The Islam-watch Pastor , February 22, 2010
It is a thing of joy for those of us exposing the cult of Islam in this site to
set them free from bondage. They can believe anything they want provided is not
a system that preaches hate or death to other belief system. Democracy is not a
religion is a political system which is far better than Islam as a political sys
tem but you know Islam also pride itself as a religion promising paradise for it
s followers for which you and I know is lunacy. If you want to fill the void gab
in their psyche of Paradise for which they may not get there, because of follow
ing a wrong person you can send them to Christ who alone has the credible creden
tials and have promised heaven for those who believe in him rather than sending
them to Democracy which have no prospect for heaven since is only good here on e
arth but not in heaven. Machmoed I know this is another fallacy as far as you ar
e concern but this Christ option is the best for now. Do you think if the whole
world follows the teaching of the Jesus Christ, there will be need for Islam- wa
tch.org? or FFI? Or even UN?
0Islam is a myth! so is the prophet!
Guys,
Don't bother...Andrew is not a muslim as muslims see muslims. He doesn't know th
e islamic sources and knows nothing muslims believe in. So he is not someone to
fear that he is goinig to blow up himself someday. He formed an own religion tha
t's better than islam by Mohammad. I wonder if he prays and who told him to pray
like that. Andrew...you might be a convert muslim who doesn't know islam as it
is written and believed. Again...how do you know how to do tayammoem (washing wi
th a stone or sand when there is no water) and how do you know how to say some t
hings that are not in the quran. Watch out for mohammadan moslims who believe in
sunna....they might kill you for being an apostate...at least in their eyes. Yo
u have seen yourself that other muslims (Shibli Zaman) think you're an apostate
because they think Allah is only for the muslims who follow sunna wich is also a
lie according to latest research. If religions showed us something then it's th
e fact that God is different to everybody...he's personal...therefor my God is d
ifferent than yours and that's why the prophet told everybody in the beginning..
.for you your God and for me mine. I will not believe what you believe, nor woul
d you worship what i worship. How come he changed what he was preaching before..
...i mean Allah ofcourse. Are you blind to see this! I'm talking about the almig
hty. When you reffering to Allah...do you also referring to the almighty? You ha
ve to know that Allah as portretted by the arabs is not the almighty. Religion i
s an disgusting excuse for controlling the mob.
0...
Do you think if the whole world follows the teaching of the Jesus Christ, there
will be need for Islam- watch.org? or FFI? Or even UN?
No i don't think there will be the need of Islam watch or anything like that.
I also believe islam wouldn't be in the world without judaism and christianity.
I strongly believe islam was an reaction to threats from inside and outside.
With democracy i ment....the way we live today in the west. Everyone can believe
and worship whoever they want, but they have to respect the constitution law wi
ch we all agreed to live within the boundaries of this law. Religion should not
be an issue at all, because it is personal. Islam made a big deal about this wor
shipping deity called Allah with all it's rituals and so on. Even a child knows
the concept of God in it's simple form. Clement..I think we're talking the same.
..where i think it's the source/God/laws of nature where he manifestate himself
who made all this possible, you say it is Christ. To me Christ is a vehicle who
could drive you to the source/God etc. To me it is the source itself. No-one is
between me and my God as it should be..to my opinion ofcourse
0...
written by walker , February 22, 2010
I have no 'faith" as it is written but even a blind person can see islam is a cu
lt of evil with "prophet" who was illiterate baby raper who hated woman.
0Thanks for posts about democracy
written by Demsci , February 22, 2010
Machmoed, I admire your posts and I agree with you. You have great historical kn
owledge, and you also are in favor of democratic rules, and the freedom they bri
ng. Moreover you want the world to tell about democracy instead of Islam, like I
do. I too think from a perspective like yours, I like to believe in science in
search of ever more and deeper truth.
Clement is right about Democracy only being about this life of course. But I tru
st Clement to be OK with and supportive of Democracy as almost all Christians ar
e. And within Democracy he is free to advocate his life-conviction and his belie
f in the afterlife. And I know he relies solely on voluntary persuasion and also
would allow people out of Christianity should they so wish. But under a Islamic
theocratic regime he would not be able to freely express his views.
02 Demsci
Clement is right about Democracy only being about this life of course!
Clement is right about a lot of things. The above sentence implicates that there
is more than this life! It might, but we are not going to know this in our live
s and we sure shouldn't fight eachother about this. Everything is being about th
is life. Actually the purpose of religion is also this life and not as many peop
le think about the afterlife. The afterlife with it's rewardings is only there s
o people would do what they are ordered to do in this life. Religion is not abou
t God really, but it's about humanity and his fear of being alone and afraid for
unknown things. That's why it is extremely important for a believer to feel rig
ht about what he believes. This is why muslims can't handle critics...especially
when you say that islam is not true! they are even capable of killing you for t
hat.
demsci, i think you're one of the intelligent and kindest person to debate with.
You always sound reasonable, kind/friendly and not emotional ever. These are gr
eat characteristics of a great personality. Sometimes i have trouble to use the
right words, becuz english is not my natural language. Thanx and i respect you d
early.
0Islam-watch
Machmoed. You write "Do you think if the whole world follows the teaching of the
Jesus Christ, there will be need for Islam- watch.org"?
No I don't think there will be the need of Islam watch or anything like that. Je
sus himself declared that he was not introducing a new religion. Quran says ther
e is no such thing in Quran which was not disclosed to other messengers. There w
as no necessity of messenger after messenger if the original message was profess
ed and followed. This is evident from Quran also.
Islam-watch may, however, stay as opposition in democracy.
0Reed
Reed,
How do you know Jesus said that...from the bible right? the qor'aan thinks Jesus
is given the gospel when he was an infant. You perfectly know that the bible is
not the litteral word of God but it is believed that it is inspired by God. Is
it a fallacy in the qor'aan. The same goes for the Thora.....everybody knows the
thora is not given to Moses but is written over a period of 800 tyears by more
than 30/40 writers. What about Allah who telling in the Qor'aan that he sent qor
'aan as a fullfillment of what has sent before. What has sent before, Reed? Did
you know Moses was actually Amun'messe who was a faroa of upper egypt and who wo
rshipped one God (sun-God= Sol Invictus) as a succeeder of Achneton. This guy fo
ught against the faroa who didn't believe in the unity of God. Then the jews too
k this example as their own and their example (prophet). The stories i'm telling
you are much older than religious scriptures.
0Prove it.
If you are making a claim then you should prove it. You say original message was
changed, what was that? How can Mohammad claim their books have been corrupted?
Because Allah told him? There should be a better proof than this kind of blatan
t claim. Did he tell what was changed? Very old versions of Bible were preserved
and you can cross check.
Reed you have not answered to my question on abrogation.
0Original Message.
Healer-999. "How can Mohammad claim their books have been corrupted"? He never c
laimed. I claimed. Read Gospel. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law of
Prophets. I have come to fullfil it (Matt.5:17). Following verses further explai
n it. He said because the original message was forgotten. Same happend with the
message brought by the Christ. Trinity, a new concept was soon invented within 3
hundred years of his departure. Muslims also lost his message. Message has been
same from same God.
Abrogation: Yes I have submitted on other page which I paste here:
According the dictionaries the word ayah has four different meanings meanings.
In Koran the word is used in all the four meanings such as:
1.A miracle as in 17:101
2.An example as in 25:37
3.A sign as in 19:10
4.A verse as in 38:29
Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, we can easily spot that the word Ayah in t
his particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. Here it means a miracl
e. It is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with
its equal or with one that is greater than it.
The stupid concept of Nasikh wal Mansookh or abrogation in Quran was originally
invented during the fourth century A.H (late 10th century A.D). Among them are n
otably Ahmed Bin Ishaq famous as Al-Denary (died 318 A.H), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-A
sbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin
Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is r
egarded as one of the leading references in the subject. It was not appreciated
in the beginning but later some so called scholars of Islam bought it.
Please do not over estimate me. I am not scholar. Religion is not my profession.
I am not qualified to answer so many questions.
0Height of duplicity.
Reed,
No one replaces one miracle by another miracle, it does't make any sense or any
meaning. Miracle is performed one after another.
So is the case with 'sign'. Here in Koran, sign has been used to indicate variou
s incidents. For example drowning of Pharo's army. Or defeat of Pagan's army at
battle of Bad. Mohammad refers to this as a sign to Jews of Medina that he is th
e Prophet. So here 'sign' is more like a warning. Proper usage is will be like '
after many signs' or ' repeated warnings'. With this back ground I do not see ho
w your logic fits in. Replacing one warning by another does't make sense. Or eve
n 'sign' the way it is used here, replacing one sign by another does't make any
sense.
Look at verse 002:106:
002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but W
e substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power
over all things?
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or caus
e be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest
thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring o
ne better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all thin
gs?
Do you think you logic fits in above?
0Without the abrogation rule the Quran does not make sense
written by Clement- The Islam-watch Pastor , February 24, 2010
In order to overcome the problem of forgetfulness Mohammed invented the principl
e of abrogation to enable him continued to ditch out his situational self-servin
g scriptures. When in Mecca without power he could say to you your religion and
to me my religion but with sward wilding jihadist around him in Medina he could
say only Islam is accepted and any one who apostasies kill him. Without abrogati
ng the earlier verses by this later ones how can you explain both them mean peac
eful religion. Remember true Islam began in Medina and not in Mecca. Because he
failed as a prophet in Mecca he even compromised to worship Allah with his three
daughters when the Quyrash offered him money, women and power but at Medina as
a New Religion of Terror started with sward in one hand Quran in the other hand
to approve the most despicable acts ever perpetuated in name of religion in huma
n history. Of course with the sward he was successful. That is why the Islamic C
alendar started with the Hijra Every peaceful verse in Mecca Abrogated if not wh
y was Islam dating did not start with Mecca? May be REED will answer that since
he does not believe in abrogation.
0bible corrupted?
I'm concerned about the promise of allah to protect the qor'aan as it is reveale
d. But we know he did not and true muslims (according to themselfes) acknowledge
this fact that some verses are not in Qor'aan anymore. Umar once said. Don't le
t any muslim say i know the qor'aan for no one knows the Qor'aan in it's origina
l form. say i know all there is been left of it. It contradicts the promise of A
llah to protect it. Furthermore: Reed believes Qor'aan is not something new and
it contains the same message as in other scriptures.....if it was the same messa
ge why reveal Qor'aan. Qor'aan does not say the former scriptures are corrupted.
It actually sais that priets and scriptexperts twisting their tongs and corrupt
ing the texts with their tongs. Even Tabari never believed the bible was ever co
rrupted (scriptural). This story of corruptness only appeared after people quest
ioned the qor'aan because it wasn't in allignment of the bible. Then the arabs t
old everybody that the scriptures opf the christians and jews must be corrupted.
We have christian scriptures from before and after mohammad and they are the sa
me. In meccan sura's the bible is not corrupted....then when it is corrupted?
0Reed.
Hello Reed,
Did you finally agree that your version of meaning for ayah is incompatible in t
hat verse of abrogation (2:106) ?
0...
written by SUCCESSFUL INTELLECTUAL , January 27, 2011
all discussions will not be considered without proof from the authenticated sour
se..i suggest u guys give the chapter n verse no for us to recheck.. if ur no ab
le to provide that means it is no where indicated in the QURAN AND IS FALSE INFO
0to Successful Intellectual
written by Editor, M. A. Khan , January 27, 2011
The article in well-referenced from the Quran and hadith. If you've read it care
fully, you could not miss it.
0...
written by human , March 10, 2011
Hi all,
Why should discriminate ideas or reviews, and put bad wordings to a journal arti
cle? We all have right to make an article and published in journal. Why don't yo
u submit your opinion on the article to the journal?
Quran and hadits are moslem's guide to a better and meaningful life, as some of
you may have different guides. Stick to your guide/s and lets living peacefully
as human being.
Faith in God is not to hate, killing others, destroy environment, but to have a
useful and meaningful temporary life.
Peace and lets find our own truth.
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Then the authors say:

blood vessel, not a specific vessel like

aorta , as deceptive modern trans

Furthermore, Mohammad encouraged the consumption of foods such as white meat of f

rly contradictory, it would be stupidity at its grossest to suggest, today, that

drop of fluid or seed , meanin

One astonishing feature of this paper is

that it was submitted on May 7, 2009 an

What then could be behind quick acceptance of this paper, as nonsensical as it i

similarly doing some religious practice like surya namasar in front

0On Your Comments

written by duh_swami , February 14, 2010

his new religion of submission (Islam)?

written by Reed Wilson , February 16, 2010

written by Clement- The Islam-Iwatch Pastor , February 17, 2010

The Mohammedans do not understand Koran. They memorize without comprehension. Th

and What is evil is that hinders Islam. Thes

written by Machmoed , February 18, 2010

Volume 7, Book 69, Number 492a:

aisha-muhammad-movie imran firasat

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