Just like a Y restraint defines an X-Z plane of free motion, the sign on these rods point to

the center of the sphere of free motion (the length is teh radius of this sphere). A
+YROD will show Y displacement greater than or equal to zero and a -YROD will show Y
displacement less than or equal to zero.
If you enter an unsigned rod (e.g. YROD), CAESAR II will convert it to a positive rod
(i.e. +YROD) in teh input processor.
Do not confuse CAESAR II input with actual hardware response in the field.
_________________________
Dave Diehl

What's your input for rod length? (Vertical) rod length and horizontal displacement
determine the rod swing up or down. Use rod length and net horizontal displacement to
establish swing angle. Then lay the rod length on that hypotenuse to find the vertical lift.
+YRODs swing up and -YRODs swing down. +YRODs carry a -Y load and -YRODs carry a
+Y load. If you do not specify + or - in the input, CAESAR II sets the ROD positive. The
vector points to the pivot point. Its easy to talk about YRODs here but the same rules
apply to any vector.
I agree with shr, your -Y displacement doesn't sound good with a +YROD.
I would think that the B31.1 rule of a 4 degree max rotation (as John Luf points out)
would allow most of these rods to be modeled as simple Y restraints. Any other opinions?
_________________________
Dave Diehl

The increment is how much the angular position will be changed in successive iterations.
The smaller the increment, the longer the solution may take to converge, but there is
less chance of stepping over a position that will converge.
The tolerance is the difference in positions that is acceptable to be considered
converged.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS

Designers must consider that the above support configurations all allow some movement depending
upon the overall size, orientation, and configuration of the assembly. For example, hanger assemblies
can accommodate translational motion producing swing angles of +/- 4 degrees maximum. This
means that designers may be able to accommodate greater pipe movement by incorporating longer
support assemblies into the design, rather than introducing additional support components.

<="" p="">

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#10984 - 04/29/07 09:23 AM

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Problem regarding +YROD having
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Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

displacement in vertical axis

UDAY
KUMAR

Member
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Bangalore

The model consists of steam piping laid over

the pipe rack operating at temperature of
495 Deg.C from WHRSG boilers to
common steam distribution header with a
tapping in between to process . We have
modeled the piping with expansion loops to
take care of stress requirements and rod
hangers, where the horizontal displacement
is more than 140mm. In the restraint
summary of the model, we have noticed
that the +YROD at few node numbers are
loaded with force in 'X' & 'Z' axis with a
displacement in 'Y' (vertical) axis, in spite
of increased rod length, rod tolerance &
change in rod increment.
For example, the said problem is with the
rod hanger(+YROD) at node 1300, where
the displacement is X= -155mm, Y=
-4.894mm & Z= 50.765mm. However at
few node numbers we have observed that in

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spite of large horizontal displacement the

above explained problem does not exist.
It is also not clear to us, why the vertical
displacement is appearing in the
displacement summary for the rod
hangers(+YROD) which has the above
problem and this displacement varies with
the change in rod length. Please clarify.
Top
#10985 - 04/29/07 08:19 PM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: UDAY KUMAR]

shr

Member
Registered:
02/16/07
Posts: 508
Loc:
Singapore

Uday
I do not know why you are getting strange result
in your system.
But I thought as at node no 1300 you are getting
heavy X & Z movement so you should get
+4.894mm vertical movement instead of
-4.894mm vertical movement from simple
geometry.
You can also check the restrain summery whether
at node 1300 operating load is -ve or +ve.
In our system where ever we find +ve rod hanger
load at operating condition we replace that with
spring hanger or find some another location for
support.

Top
#10986 - 04/29/07 09:31 PM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: shr]

John C.
Luf

Member
Registered:
03/25/02
Posts: 1110
Loc: U.S.A.

check the swing angle of your rods where you are

getting large horizontal loads an angle greater
than 4 degrees is considered to be excessive....
_________________________
Best Regards,
John C. Luf

Top
#10993 - 04/30/07 09:35 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

Dave
Diehl

What's your input for rod length? (Vertical) rod

length and horizontal displacement determine
the rod swing up or down. Use rod length and
net horizontal displacement to establish swing
angle. Then lay the rod length on that
hypotenuse to find the vertical lift.

Member

+YRODs swing up and -YRODs swing down.

+YRODs carry a -Y load and -YRODs carry a
+Y load. If you do not specify + or - in the
input, CAESAR II sets the ROD positive. The
vector points to the pivot point. Its easy to talk
about YRODs here but the same rules apply to
any vector.

Registered:
12/14/99
Posts: 1682
Loc: Houston,
TX, USA

I agree with shr, your -Y displacement doesn't

sound good with a +YROD.
I would think that the B31.1 rule of a 4 degree
max rotation (as John Luf points out) would
allow most of these rods to be modeled as
simple Y restraints. Any other opinions?
_________________________
Dave Diehl

Top
#10994 - 04/30/07 11:18 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: Dave Diehl]

UDAY
KUMAR

Member
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Bangalore

Sir i have increased the ROd length upto

10m but still that problem exists. I have also
noticed that at some nodes where the
horizontal displacement is more than the
node at 1300 its not taking load in X and Z
axis. I have changed the swing angle still
this problem exists. Should i model these
+YRod which i have problem as Y restraints
thats what u meant.I have given a Rod
tolerance of 5.
Shall i send the model for you to know
clearly whats the problem im facing so that

u can suggest me what to do.

_________________________
UDAY KUMAR,
Top
#10995 - 04/30/07 11:27 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: UDAY KUMAR]

RobertACookPE

Member

Check: You're trying a ten meter rod

length in your calc? That doesn't
appear realistic for real-world
(simple rod) hangers.

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Top
#10996 - 04/30/07 11:34 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: RobertACookPE]

Loren
Brown

Uday,

Member
Registered:
10/18/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Houston, TX

Please send your Caesar II model (.CAESAR

II) to techsupport@coade.com and we will
look at it.
_________________________
Loren Brown
Director of Technical Support
CADWorx & Analysis Solutions
Intergraph Process, Power, & Marine
12777 Jones Road, Ste. 480, Houston, TX
77070 USA

Top
#11007 - 05/01/07 07:16 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: Loren Brown]

John C.
Luf

Member

So Loren whats the rest of this story???... Don't

keep us all swing on a Yrod.
_________________________
Best Regards,

Registered:
03/25/02
Posts: 1110
Loc: U.S.A.

John C. Luf

Top
#11012 - 05/01/07 11:24 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: John C. Luf]

Loren
Brown

Member
Registered:
10/18/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Houston, TX

I still have not received any files from you

Uday. I need to see the details of your input to
find the mistake. A Yrod, or +Yrod cannot
have a negative displacement, EXCEPT in the
EXP case or any other combination case. For
the EXP or other combination case the results
are not displacements, but delta-displacements
and can be any sign as the represent the
difference between or the addition of two other
load cases. I suspect this is what you are
looking at. Your OPE and SUS cases should
not have a negative displacement at the Yrod
location.
_________________________
Loren Brown
Director of Technical Support
CADWorx & Analysis Solutions
Intergraph Process, Power, & Marine
12777 Jones Road, Ste. 480, Houston, TX
77070 USA

Top
#11013 - 05/01/07 11:28 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: Loren Brown]

UDAY
KUMAR

Member
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Bangalore

Loren Brown,
Based on your request i have sent the model
to techsupport@coade.com please reply as
soon as possible.
_________________________
UDAY KUMAR,

Top
#11016 - 05/01/07 02:15 PM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: UDAY KUMAR]

Loren
Brown

At this point I don't know how you got

negative displacements at your +YRod
locations. I could not reproduce this. Using
your file I got all positive Y-displacements.

Member
Registered:
10/18/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Houston, TX

Edited by Loren Brown (05/01/07 02:16 PM)

_________________________
Loren Brown
Director of Technical Support
CADWorx & Analysis Solutions
Intergraph Process, Power, & Marine
12777 Jones Road, Ste. 480, Houston, TX
77070 USA

Top
#11030 - 05/02/07 02:48 PM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: UDAY KUMAR]

Loren
Brown

Member
Registered:
10/18/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Houston, TX

Just to finish the story: The file I received did

in fact have a negative displacement in the
OPE load case. But when I ran the file the
displacements were indeed positive or zero.
How Uday managed to get negative
displacements I don't know and I cannot
reproduce it, but suspect it had something to do
with the rod tolerance settings in
configure/setup that must not have had enough
fidelity and allowed convergence with a small
negative displacement.
Secondly, I reviewed the resultant rotations for
all load cases and all of them were smaller than
1 degree. This means that there is no reason for
you to use the YRod restraint type at all! Far
better that you model rigid Y restraints as the
results will be accurate, perhaps more so than
using the YRod restraints as there is a special
iterative procedure required with the large
rotation rods. Y restraints will not cause
convergence problems, which is important
because when convergence is not obtained you
must adjust convergence criteria in
configure/setup and that always introduces
some error into the solution.

Edited by Loren Brown (05/02/07 03:39 PM)

_________________________
Loren Brown
Director of Technical Support
CADWorx & Analysis Solutions
Intergraph Process, Power, & Marine
12777 Jones Road, Ste. 480, Houston, TX
77070 USA
Top
#11037 - 05/03/07 03:55 AM

Re: Problem regarding +YROD

having displacement in vertical axis [Re: Loren Brown]

shr

Member
Registered:
02/16/07
Posts: 508
Loc:
Singapore

I also face same problem in our organization

while working with expansion bellow few days
back . In my pc file was showing absolutely fine
result but same caesar file was showing some
strange result in my friends computer.
I could not detect the error & finally reinstall
Caesar software in my friends pc once again then
the problem was solved.
Uday you can do the same & check .

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