INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF

RADIO APRIL 23, 2016

RUSH TRANSCRIPT: BRAD HIRSCHFIELD
Click here for audio
[REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: The
Jewish observance of Passover began at sundown Friday night.
Along with other major Jewish holidays, Passover offers lessons
beyond Judaism and even beyond religion. I'm very happy to be
joined now by Rabbi Brad Hirschfield, president of Clal, the National
Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership. He's not new to this
show; he's been on many times, always to our benefit.
Brad, welcome back to State of Belief Radio.
[RABBI BRAD HIRSCHFIELD, GUEST]: Thank you, Welton. Its an
honor and a joy to be with you.
[WG]: I was just thinking, in going over some of the things I want to
ask you in relation to Passover, and it just occurred to me I live, now,
in not a totally homogeneous culture but in some ways it is. I certainly
live where there is not a strong Jewish presence, and I'm around a lot
of Christians of different stripes. And often I will hear someone in the
Christian community say, Passover? I thought Passover occurred at
the same time Easter occurs! And so what are you doing celebrating
Passover now?
[BH]: Arent we a little late?

[WG]: So I thought it might be helpful for you just to talk about why
Passover is where it is this time.
[BH]: I would be happy to. Yes, Passover is a little late this year, and
that is an expression youll even hear in the Jewish community where it's clearly not pegged to Easter. And it's so funny, because
how can a holiday be late? It is when it is, according to the Hebrew
calendar.
In fact, what people are saying is we typically expect it to be a little
earlier in the Spring, and in fact a little bit closer to Easter. There are
obviously good historical reasons for that; I will leave the first century
historians to thrash out whether the Last Supper was a Passover
Seder, the ritual meal that celebrates the holiday, or not. As it
happens, I have a brother-in-law who is one of those historians who is
fiercely opposed to the notion. He thinks it was a very important and
sacred meal, but it wasnt a Seder. But it clearly happened around
that time of year: Easter did happen as the Jewish people are
gathering for Passover. And it is clear that the Easter story is a story
of liberation and redemption - as the ancient Israelites celebrated
leaving Egypt, and Jews to this day celebrate liberation, redemption
and freedom.
So what happened that we got out of synch, as it were? What
happens is that the biblical calendar is a lunar calendar. The lunar
year comes up about twelve days short of the solar year - the solar
year being the one that the Christian calendar is pegged to, the
American calendar is pegged to - most of the secular world globally is
pegged to. If you go with the strictly lunar calendar, the holidays start
to migrate because they are those twelve days short. So a holiday
that was in April one year is in June the next year is in August the
next year.
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And in fact, the large religion that does still work with a strictly lunar
calendar is the Muslim tradition, and that is why people say, Wait a
second, Ramadan, the month of fasting - that a lot of people know
because they'll have friends or neighbors who they see are eating
only after sundown and then stopping at sunrise the following
morning, theyll say Didnt you do that at a different time last year?
And the answer is yes, because it's a strictly lunar calendar. Easter
will appear in a very rigid kind of timeframe because its strictly solar.
The Jewish calendar, starting around the time or a little bit before the
time of Jesus, was a mixture: whats called a lunisolar calendar. It
mixes the lunar and the solar, adding an extra month seven times
every nineteen years so theres a nineteen-year cycle. Seven times
in that nineteen-year cycle, an extra month is added. And that month
tries to keep the holidays more or less in the same season.
Now why do we do all that? Because all of the ancient Jewish
holidays have both an agricultural element and a social-historical
element. Passover was not only the story of redemption from Egypt
and the journey into freedom thats the historical moment. It is also
the Spring holiday - the holiday of rebirth and renewal as things are
beginning to grow. So what happens is, this happens to be a year
when one of those extra months got dropped in, and Passover is a
little bit later. Next year it'll spring back - no pun intended start to
drift again, and then another month will be added two years out.
So really, what we're dealing with is trying to keep holidays that honor
both the agricultural rhythms of the world and the historic events of
the people who are celebrating.

[WG]: And this is a good time to follow that by asking you to do a kind
of Twitter-length definition of how Judaism observes Passover.
[BH]: Sure. The central piece of Passover is a kind of dinner party
and conversation called the Seder, S-E-D-E-R, which means order
in Hebrew. Now, anytime you call something order, you know it must
have lots of disorder. You can imagine, if you bring together lots of
family and friends - I don't know about your family, but I know in my
family that can get a little dicey. And really what it is, is: each night the first two nights of the eight-day-long festival families will gather
at home, and they will tell the story of going from Egypt into freedom.
Families will sit around, and the three central pieces of that
observance yes, there's all kinds of foods that people enjoy, and I
get the when-do-we-eat question. But the three central pieces are: to
tell the story in a way that each person feels, even to this day, that
each of us, ourselves, is leaving Egypt. That each of us, ourselves, is
being liberated. And, in fact, the Hebrew word for Egypt Mizraim
- actually means a tight spot. So the first thing, the central
observance of Passover, is gather with people you love and tell the
stories, both ancient and personal/contemporary, of the tight spots
youre in, and try and see yourself getting out of them.
The two - three foods, really - around which that happens are the
drinking of four cups of wine - or grape juice, if you don't want liquor and those cups are raised at the beginning of the meal to announce
its a sacred event as we tell the story, because even though it's a
story that starts in slavery we trust it's going to end in happiness; at
the grace after meals so we know that having eaten the food we are
really satisfied and can celebrate it; and toward the conclusion of that
Seder, in order to sing psalms to God of praise for the circumstances
we're in. So thats four cups of wine.

There's the matzoh, which is the thin unleavened bread that I'm sure
people have seen - it's become so popular that even if there's no
Jews around, its amazing how a box of matzoh will make it to a
grocery shelf and those literally are baked to remember, and that's
what we eat: there's no leavened bread for observant Jews for eight
days - no leavened anything - because we had to leave in such haste
from Egypt there was no time to let the bread rise. And so we
substitute matzoh for bread on this holiday.
And then the last piece are the bitter herbs. Because as beautiful as
this story is; as much as we trust we are going to be liberated we
have been liberated and will be yet again liberated; as much as we
know we can eat that matzoh because we are taking the journey into
freedom - we also want to remember that things have been bitter, and
tragically remain bitter for certain people in the world. And that our
freedom and celebration of it should never make us forget that there
are other people who are still in the bitter herbs phase and are still
suffering all kinds of forms of slavery all over the world.
[WG]: You know Brad, I listen to you and think what you already know
and have shared so many times: there is such great relevance to the
issues of the day in the Jewish religious calendar. And Id like for you
to just talk for a moment about the wisdom that is to be found in the
Passover observance that is applicable to all people.
[BH]: Sure. And I love that you appreciate it, and I would say that
actually each of the world's great traditions - and I think sometimes
people forget it from the outside and practitioners on the inside forget
it - our traditions stick around because they are gifts from God to the
world - to all people - and they all have things to teach us.

For Passover it seems to me it's pretty straightforward. Everyone has

been, at some time in their life - or knows someone who has been - in
their own personal Egypt. In their own tight spot. And we know if we
can gather together with people we love and tell the story of other
people who got out of tight spots, we're probably helping to lift
ourselves out of the tight spots we may find ourselves in today. And
so that's the personal part of Passover that I think everyone needs
and deserves: it is that liberation story. And if I can - without sounding
disrespectful or glib - it is the story, in some measure or at least in
part of Easter. The dead really return to life: don't ever give up on that.
The dead return to life. The slave becomes free. The tightest story
can become the most expansive. That's the personal.
But it's also national and global. Slavery is a real problem in parts of
the world today. And I don't mean that metaphorically. Slavery! People
who are bought and sold like shoes and cars and loaves of bread.
And it doesn't affect ten people or a hundred people or a thousand
people; it affects between hundreds of thousands and maybe even
millions of people. And so this is a moment to talk about what does it
mean if the Bible - most repeated phrase in the five books of Moses:
Remember that you were a slave in Egypt. What does it mean to
remember that there are still people enslaved in the world? And that
our freedom in celebration of it can never let us forget that we are not
ourselves fully free until everyone is free.
[WG]: You know, you say that so beautifully and it is so terribly
relevant given how many people around the world today are
threatened, wrapped up in fear, anxiety, many of them. And I'm pretty
convinced that the people who talk about religious persecution in our
society - and I'll talk about my own tradition, those people who say
that Christianity is under persecution - don't have any idea what
they're talking about. There are people all over the world that 6

because of their religion - they are being persecuted. Connect those

dots, please.
[BH]: Well I guess. And I don't know if this is totally what you mean,
but I know that you're right about what youre talking about: that
feeling of persecution is real. And it's ironic, because it's real to
people in very different settings. And so where I come at this from is, I
take peoples feelings of persecution incredibly seriously - even if I
don't necessarily agree with their analysis.
So when someone in America says that they as a Christian feel they
are under attack religiously, I feel it's my obligation to take that
seriously. Even though I also might point out to them - and well just
keep it in the frame of Christian persecution - you could go half a
world away, and people are being murdered because theyre
Christian. You could go half a world away, and people are spending
their lives in prison for having a Bible that they're not supposed to
have. That seems to me as very serious persecution. And what I
would then say to the person here is, I get it. There are times even
people in the majority feel under duress or even under persecution;
because somehow in our pursuit of trying to honor minority needs,
the majority feels, how did this get so backwards and now we feel we
have to apologize?
By the way - not related to religion - Alexis de Tocqueville noted that
we came from France to America and talked about the danger of the
tyranny of the majority; and then also said that the minority can also
tyrannize, because in the desire to help them we forget the majority.
So I get all that. I would simply say to those people who feel that way,
let's make sure that in helping you feel less threatened, less
tyrannized, less apologetic, less persecuted - we not persecute
others. Rather than debate who is persecuted and who's not, I always
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point out there's very little hope in achieving your freedom by

persecuting other people. It just doesn't work. So if you genuinely feel
that your tradition is being persecuted, I promise - even if I don't
agree - I will take that claim seriously; and invite you who feel
persecuted to commit not only to your own religious freedom, but to
the religious freedom of others. And let us be free together.
[EG]: Brad, you know, Ive got to be honest with you. The one reason
that I don't like having you on this program is because you always
make me feel so dang inferior - spiritually and sensitively.
[BH]: Oh no! Thats terrible.
[WG]: No, it's not. Its my way of saying how wonderful it is that you
can take even people that I think are manipulating religious freedom
for their own purposes and you could see a sensitivity in that, and
bring an inclusivity to it with, also, a message that is challenging for
all of us to be able to share the same rights.
[BH]: Welton, I'm going to tell you what part of it comes from and I
think it's a tribute to you, and this is not just giving a compliment back.
I am an outsider to that Christian world that feels persecuted. My job
as an outsider - especially when I'm annoyed with them - is not to
wag my finger and shout. It's to practice greater compassion. You're
an insider. And from the inside, your job is to raise that prophetic
voice and say, My brothers and sisters have you lost your mind?
What is going on?
So it's easy for me to be spiritually generous because guess what - at
the end of the day, it's not my community. And that means that if
every outsider would be more generous, and every insider - by the
way, I don't care if this is on Christian-Jewish, Republican-Democrat 8

if you're on the outside, be a little more generous. If you're on the

inside, raise your voice.
So I think it's exactly the way it should be. You should be triply
annoyed and raising that voice, and I should be saying from the
outside, you know, maybe I need to slow down and try and
understand a little bit better. Typically, we get the reverse: the
outsiders critique, the insiders defend, and nothing gets changed! It
ought to be that the insiders critique, and the outsiders defend.
[WG]: Thank you very much for that insight and those words.
Brad, earlier this month you posted a thoughtful response to the
proliferation of divisive religious freedom laws in states across the
country. I wonder if youd just say a little bit about that.
[BH]: Sure, and it's related to what we're talking about. I actually am
pretty modest about what are often called religious freedom
restoration laws and things like that because I do understand that
people may have very different views from mine, or very different
policies that they understand they're called by God to observe than I
do. And I do want their needs respected. I believe with all my heart
that protecting the religious needs of others - even when I find them
objectionable - is a big piece of what religious freedom is about. My
plea - and I would go further, my insistence - with them is that in
pursuit of securing their own religious freedom, which I promise I will
fight side-by-side with them even as we disagree about what that
means, is that they cannot fight to curtail the exact same thing for
other people.
[WG]: You know, I am sitting here remembering other conversations
that you and I have had and I remember some around Hanukkah that
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were just so insightful and stirring. I want to say to you - and it seems
a little presumptuous - I want to bless you and the Jewish world as
you observe Passover this year. And I want you to share, if you feel
like it, with us the blessing that you would give - as one of the leaders
in Judaism - the blessing you would give to some of us who are not in
that community, but who are participants in what you're celebrating
during Passover.
[BH]: So first, Welton, I want to thank you. I'm very grateful for and
take very seriously your blessing. You're a teacher and a leader who I
have both great respect and affection for, and to receive your blessing
is a very, very big thing for me. So thank you, personally.
The blessing for the world on Passover I wont invoke my image; Ill
invoke the Bible and the later rabbis. They imagined that the people
who went free from Egypt were not only the Israelites, but other
nations of the world also went free. And so the blessing is that as I
proudly celebrate this 3000-plus-years story of Jews going into
freedom, I know I am obligated to fight for the freedom of others, and
hope and bless others that they should leave the Egypts, the tight
spots they are in, and journey out into lives of freedom and prosperity
- and then pay that forward by helping others do the same.
[WG]: Rabbi Brad Hirschfield is president of Clal, the National Jewish
Center for Learning and Leadership in New York City. Rabbi
Hirschfield was ranked three years in a row in Newsweek as
one of Americas fifty most influential rabbis. His book You Don't Have
to be Wrong for Me to be Right: Finding Faith Without Fanaticism, is
as relevant today as it was the day he finished writing it.
Brad, as always, I really appreciate you taking time to be with us on
State of Belief Radio.
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[BH]: It's an honor, Welton. Thank you and all blessings to you and to
all your listeners.

Rabbi Brad Hirschfield

Listed for many years in Newsweek as one of Americas 50
Most Influential Rabbis, and recognized as one of our
nations leading Preachers & Teachers, by Beliefnet.com,
Fox News regular contributor, Washington Post blogger, and
think tank President Brad Hirschfield is the author of You
Dont Have To Be Wrong For Me To Be Right: Finding Faith
Without Fanaticism (Harmony, 2008). He also conceived and
hosted two groundbreaking series for Bridges TVAmerican
Muslim TV Network, Building Bridges: Abrahamic
Perspectives on the World Today (three seasons),
and American Pilgrimage. He is also the Co-founder and
Executive Editor of The Wisdom Daily.
An expert on religion and public life, Hirschfield offers a
unique perspective on the American spiritual landscape and
political and social trends to audiences nationwide. A
popular television guest, Rabbi Hirschfield is the President of
ClalThe National Jewish Center for Learning and
Leadership, a leadership training institute, a think tank and
resource center committed to religious pluralism and the
healthier use of religion in American public life. An interfaith
activist, he has inspired audiences from the Aspen Institute
and the Washington National Cathedral, to the Islamic
Society of North America and many leading universities and
religious institutions. A featured speaker at Parliament of
the Worlds Religions in both Barcelona and Melbourne, he
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was recently invited by the Governments of the United

States and the Republic of Indonesia to speak at the Jakarta
Interfaith Dialogue.
Hirschfield is the editor of Remember for Life: Holocaust
Survivors Stories of Faith and Hope (The Jewish Publication
Society, 2007). He is a co-author of Embracing Life & Facing
Death: A Jewish Guide to Palliative Care (CLAL, 2003). An
Orthodox rabbi, he received his M.A. and M. Phil from the
Jewish Theological Seminary, and his B.A. from the
University of Chicago.

Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy

Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A
Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of
Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy led the national nonpartisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith Alliance
for 16 years, retiring in 2014. Dr. Gaddy continues his work with the
Alliance as President Emeritus and Senior Advisor. He serves as
Pastor for Preaching and Worship at Northminster (Baptist) Church in
Monroe, Louisiana.
In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State
of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the
life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America,
while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion
for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government
for sectarian purposes.
Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on
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issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs

The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and
Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour
with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News,
and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on
NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular
contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets.
While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy
emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists.
Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the
Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the
Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past
leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council
of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United
for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership
Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World
Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on
the White House task force on the reform of the Office of Faith Based
and Neighborhood Partnerships.
Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist
Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles
including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from
1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the
Christian Life Commission from 1973-77.
Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University
in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training
from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville,
Kentucky.

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State of Belief Radio
State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive
and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains
and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in
America the most religiously diverse country in the world while
exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for
partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for
sectarian purposes.
Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy offers listeners critical
analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide
listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty.
Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the firm belief that the best way to
secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from
religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong
wrong for America and bad for religion.
Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and field reports
from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of
religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes
diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world.

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